The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.

[G-Unit]

Someone has yet to explain to me how this reconstruction would have demonstrated guilt or innocence...

Maybe they would have ended up running to keep to the timeline. Some people did get there and back very quickly considering they had to lock and unlock doors and go round to the front of the building. In five minutes Matthew Oldfield walked to his flat with Russell O'Brien, unlocked his front door and checked his child, locked up again, went andf spoke to Russell and learned that Russell was staying. He then walked round to the McCann's gate, up the steps and into the apartment. He looked in the bedroom long enough to see the twins breathing, had a check of what books he might borrow, exited the apartment and went back to the restaurant. No mention of negotiating the stair gate, but Kate McCann said she found it closed at 10pm. That was pushing it imo.

[ferryman]

Except as a mechanism for jogging memories and prompting new witnesses to come forward (precluded in Portugal by the secrecy laws) "reconstitutions" contribute nothing to the quest for truth or the quest for justice.

That is why the McCanns' friends were wise to decline to take part in a "reconstitution".   

[Brietta]

It can't, because, second time around, nothing can ever be precisely replicated as it happened first time.

The analogy I always use is the shooting dead of Brazilian Jean-Paul de Menezes at the Stockwell Underground Tube station.

Eye-witnesses "saw" a man with leads trailing under a heavyweight, thick, knee-length coat, pole-volt barriers, dash on to the train pursued by surveillance officers, be pinned to the floor and be shot dead.

The reality?

Jean-Paul de Menezes made a leisurely entrance onto the platform, wearing a light-weight denim jacket, stopped to buy a paper, boarded the train in an orthodox way, was pounced on, was pinned to the floor and was shot.

That reality was established by examining close-circuit TV recording of actual events as they unfolded.

What chance a "reconstitution" of revealing the (true!) sequence of events?

Nil, I would suggest ...

The only value of a reconstruction (reconstitution) is to jog memories and make people realise they could possibly have witnessed something they did not think significant at the time which could be helpful to the police.

The McCanns did request a reconstruction to take place soon after Madeleine's disappearance.  It was refused.

However it seems the police were not even crossing the t's and dotting the i's of the information they did have. 

Perhaps if Mr Amaral had been less keen on being convinced by the dogs that Madeleine's body had lain behind the couch / in her parents' bedroom / at the foot of the stairs (take your pick) ... and felt it incumbent on himself to pin her death on them - preferably on her mother ... he might have taken the time to consider the witness evidence he had to hand.



**snip
The couple have carried out their own six-month trawl of the 30,000-page Portuguese police files, which were released last year when the investigation was shelved.

This uncovered the four witness statements about the prowler buried in the dossier.

  ...


Clarence Mitchell, the McCanns' spokesman, said: 'This man needs to be traced urgently and eliminated. These witnesses did talk to Portuguese police but it appears that nothing was done to find him. He is a vital part of the jigsaw.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1178177/Did-man-Madeleine-New-ugly-prime-suspect-prowler-seen-outside-McCanns-apartment.html#ixzz3fJTQtvWr

[Carana]

For a start it would have exposed the liars.

How, in this case?

I can see how a PT-style reconstruction could rule out someone who had falsely claimed to have committed a crime (odd though it may seem, this sometimes happens, although perhaps not in PT).

I can see how a ballistics / knife stabbing, etc., could be proven or disproven via a reconstruction.

I can see how someone who claimed to be x km drive away from a crime scene could have actually taken back roads and could feasibly have been at the crime scene.

This case seems to be different.

I can't see any way of objectively reconstructing what Gerry and Jes actually heard / noticed that evening. None of the three actually agree on precisely when they were there, nor exactly where they were standing.

Kate and the curtains whooshing... as Pegasus has already found, the prints found in an opening position, according to Amaral, weren't hers and weren't on that window. In order to get curtains to whoosh, you'd have to reconstruct the precise wind conditions at that moment on that night.

SY appears to have taken the coming-and-going of various parents and has established a forensic timeline with whatever timeframes they have established. There was no need for yet another media circus at that late stage for the benefit of the PJ media.

I really don't think that Rebelo was out to set them up... I still think that he was a decent cop, trying to recuperate a mess and was a box-ticker.

On the other hand, T9/ Jes couldn't have known that.

- It wouldn't have helped the search for Madeleine;

- It would have been yet more of a media circus;

- By that time, I doubt that any of them were unaware of the so-called Cipriano "reconstruction", which took place in somewhat dubious circumstances, and for which there was absolutely no forensic back-up, but which landed both of them in jail for a very long time.

[Carana]

Maybe they would have ended up running to keep to the timeline. Some people did get there and back very quickly considering they had to lock and unlock doors and go round to the front of the building. In five minutes Matthew Oldfield walked to his flat with Russell O'Brien, unlocked his front door and checked his child, locked up again, went andf spoke to Russell and learned that Russell was staying. He then walked round to the McCann's gate, up the steps and into the apartment. He looked in the bedroom long enough to see the twins breathing, had a check of what books he might borrow, exited the apartment and went back to the restaurant. No mention of negotiating the stair gate, but Kate McCann said she found it closed at 10pm. That was pushing it imo.

That would have taken what... all of a few minutes? They weren't half a km away and were presumably hungry and wanting the rest of their dinner. Gerry's absence of 10 or so minutes was noticed because it seemed unusual for someone just doing a quick check. The others didn't know at the time that he'd stopped to chat with Jes.

[Brietta]

Maybe they would have ended up running to keep to the timeline. Some people did get there and back very quickly considering they had to lock and unlock doors and go round to the front of the building. In five minutes Matthew Oldfield walked to his flat with Russell O'Brien, unlocked his front door and checked his child, locked up again, went andf spoke to Russell and learned that Russell was staying. He then walked round to the McCann's gate, up the steps and into the apartment. He looked in the bedroom long enough to see the twins breathing, had a check of what books he might borrow, exited the apartment and went back to the restaurant. No mention of negotiating the stair gate, but Kate McCann said she found it closed at 10pm. That was pushing it imo.

The Porto PJ didn't appear to have any problems in carrying out their own reconstruction which seems to have been instrumental in convincing them that Madeleine's case should be re-opened and some effort put in to locating an abductor.

The dogs may have convinced Mr Amaral ... but it seems from Rebelo onwards no-one else has given them the time of day.  The Oporto team were certainly more interested in what is often the only evidence in abduction cases ... eye witnesses.


**snip
The detectives, who have been reviewing the case files for two years, went to Praia da Luz on the Algarve a month ago to pursue secret inquiries.

They spent hours walking around the Ocean Club working out where certain people were seen at particular times and at Apartment 5a, from where threeyear-old Madeleine went missing on May 3, 2007.

The exercise was the culmination of months of work by four Portuguese detectives based in Porto in the north of the country, who are directly working for the highly respected senior officer Helen Monteiro, an expert on abduction cases.

It is thought her elite team of dedicated officers has recently been concentrating on statements from witnesses who say they saw unknown people acting suspiciously in the resort around the time the child was missed.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/439464/Portuguese-police-held-their-own-Madeleine-McCann-reconstruction

[pathfinder73]

That would have taken what... all of a few minutes? They weren't half a km away and were presumably hungry and wanting the rest of their dinner. Gerry's absence of 10 or so minutes was noticed because it seemed unusual for someone just doing a quick check. The others didn't know at the time that he'd stopped to chat with Jes.

For 3 or 4 minutes not 10. A brief chat. They were saying how long he was gone before Jane left the table and then claimed she saw them chatting so what was he doing before he met Jez for nearly 10 minutes.

[G-Unit]

I suggest you read the statements and stop talking nonsense.

He adds that he never entered any other part of the residence [his bedroom or the kitchen] where he was for only two or three minutes, leaving yet again through the rear door that he closed but did not lock.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm

A reconstruction would have addressed this time discrepancy issue. Do you think they want to do one?

They did their own, but it wasn't correct.

[Brietta]

I suggest you read the statements and stop talking nonsense.

He adds that he never entered any other part of the residence [his bedroom or the kitchen] where he was for only two or three minutes, leaving yet again through the rear door that he closed but did not lock.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm

A reconstruction would have addressed this time discrepancy issue. Do you think they want to do one?

Sargento had no problem with his 3D reconstruction.

Mr Amaral took the lead yet again in his reconstruction for his documentary ... no problem with the cameras there.

The Oporto PJ team managed to work it all out very discretely in the days they spent on their reconstruction.

Scotland Yard used HOLMES I believe to slot everything into place in their reconstruction.

That no-one seems to have had any problem whatsoever rather suggests ... there is no time discrepancy worth bothering about.


Why do you have a problem with the fact the most important time-line of all is absent from your equation?  In my opinion that is the one SY and the PJ have spent a lot of time trying to crack, when and if they find the abductor we will know they have had a measure of success.

[Benice]

I suggest you read the statements and stop talking nonsense.

He adds that he never entered any other part of the residence [his bedroom or the kitchen] where he was for only two or three minutes, leaving yet again through the rear door that he closed but did not lock.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm

A reconstruction would have addressed this time discrepancy issue. Do you think they want to do one?

How could any time discrepancies be resolved when no-one knew the exact times they did various things or exactly how long it had taken them.   They could only give approximations.     In order to conduct an exact replica of what they did on 3rd May they would all have to know the exact times.   To expect 10 people to be able to do that is absurd.

The odds must be enormous for even one person - say for instance  JT leaving the table at the exact time she did a year before, or Gerry leaving 5A at the exact time he did before or of Jez Wilkins setting off on his walk at exactly the same time that he did a year previous.   The chances of the three of them getting it spot on by sheer chance must be millions to one.

JT estimated that she left the table between 5 and 10 minutes after Gerry.

The consequences of her guessing at the wrong time in a recon could mean that when she walked up the street, Gerry and Jez may not have even arrived at the spot where she saw them.

What would that prove?

[pathfinder73]

How could any time discrepancies be resolved when no-one knew the exact times they did various things or exactly how long it had taken them.   They could only give approximations.     In order to conduct an exact replica of what they did on 3rd May they would all have to know the exact times.   To expect 10 people to be able to do that is absurd.

The odds must be enormous for even one person - say for instance  JT leaving the table at the exact time she did a year before, or Gerry leaving 5A at the exact time he did before or of Jez Wilkins setting off on his walk at exactly the same time that he did a year previous.   The chances of the three of them getting it spot on by sheer chance must be millions to one.

JT estimated that she left the table between 5 and 10 minutes after Gerry.

The consequences of her guessing at the wrong time in a recon could mean that when she walked up the street, Gerry and Jez may not have even arrived at the spot where she saw them.

What would that prove?

It proves he had opportunity and time to move somebody out of that apartment without anybody noticing. The same could be said for the other long check by Russell. Identify Smithman.

[mercury]

That remains to be demonstrated;

No it doesn't.

The so-called "reconstitution" was (rightly!) seen through as a farce.

Of course it was a farce. Never in the history of crime have witnesses who have said they would do anything at all go help, refuse to do so unless their conditions were first met. I would like to see them try that little trick with the British police.

The embarrassing irony, after some were weeping and wailing how a reconstruction would be a horror for them to relive, went in a year later to say YES to the Mccanns for their own "reconstruction" -  a farce if there ever was. misrepresenting facts and witness statements and all sorts.

[ferryman]

Of course it was a farce. Never in the history of crime have witnesses who have said they would do anything at all go help, refuse to do so unless their conditions were first met. I would like to see them try that little trick with the British police.

The embarrassing irony, after some were weeping and wailing how a reconstruction would be a horror for them to relive, went in a year later to say YES to the Mccanns for their own "reconstruction" -  a farce if there ever was. misrepresenting facts and witness statements and all sorts.

The farce was the suggestion that such a ridiculous notion (as a "reconstitution") was ever mooted in the first place ...

[mercury]

Quote from: ferryman on July 07, 2015, 10:54:02 PM
That remains to be demonstrated;

No it doesn't.

The so-called "reconstitution" was (rightly!) seen through as a farce.


----------

Quote from: mercury on July 08, 2015, 10:16:06 PM
Of course it was a farce. Never in the history of crime have witnesses who have said they would do anything at all go help, refuse to do so unless their conditions were first met. I would like to see them try that little trick with the British police.

The embarrassing irony, after some were weeping and wailing how a reconstruction would be a horror for them to relive, went in a year later to say YES to the Mccanns for their own "reconstruction" -  a farce if there ever was. misrepresenting facts and witness statements and all sorts.

----------
QUOTE BY FERRYMAN:

The farce was the suggestion that such a ridiculous notion (as a "reconstitution") was ever mooted in the first place ...

-----


Seeing  as our discussion was cut short by the Mods on the Amaral and the Dogs thread, Im carrying it on here


Now, by the above, do you think both Rebelo , the new investigator after Amafal was booted off the case, and the Public Prosecutor who criticised the Tapas group, were wrong? But YOU are right? Dont you realise all these refusals to cooperate with the police are one of the main reasons the Mccanns and some of their friends are suspected/maligned? In your words?

[pathfinder73]

1578    “’I don’t recall at what time, at what point, it was around twenty-one zero five to twenty-one twenty’'”

 Reply    “I think that’s, that’s almost the time that he would have been away for, not that he left as late as, erm, twenty-one twenty, yeah.  So he, he went, he was away, but, I mean, I, to be honest, you know, as I’ve said here, it’s the timeline that kind of says when Gerry went up.  Yeah, ‘Jane also went to check the children and was gone for a short time’, I think it was, to be more specific there ‘It was just a matter of a couple of minutes’.  Yeah, ‘She didn’t mention anything unusual’.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm

Gerry away for nearly 15 minutes  &%+((£ That makes sense when Jane said he was gone a long time before she left the table. A reconstruction would certainly sort this lot out!