Author Topic: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights  (Read 530309 times)

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Offline kizzy

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #270 on: September 15, 2017, 02:12:58 PM »
Yes, and it was adjacent to their apartment and was like a back garden .  A big one with expensive things in it admittedly, but believe me some people have big gardens fitted out with a tennis Court and swimming pool + all the other things.

What ever you say, it was not a garden it was a complex. [in a foreign country]

Offline jassi

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #271 on: September 15, 2017, 02:31:11 PM »
What ever you say, it was not a garden it was a complex. [in a foreign country]

Indeed, hardly a garden when the only source of access was through a reception area off a public road  some 50 metres or more away from the apartment. More like a public park area.
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future

Offline G-Unit

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #272 on: September 15, 2017, 02:58:28 PM »
From the SC judgement Jan 2017

 
Page 69
It must be reminded that, in the present case, the issue isn't the appellants' penal liability, in other words their innocence or their guilt concerning the facts leading to the disappearance of her daughter doesn't have to be appreciated here.

What is in discussion here is merely the civil liability of the respondents, on the grounds that they have expressed and disclosed the above-mentioned thesis/opinion on the disappearance in question.

It follows that the outcome of the present case is not such as to call into question the extra-procedural dimension of the presumption of innocence.


This means that, even if the action does not proceed, it will not imply, even in the eyes of the community. any consideration of the appellants' liability, because such outcome will never will be able to be equated to an observation of respective culpability (cf. on this topic the judgements Del Latte vs Holland (n°44760/98) of 9/11/2004 and Cheena vs Belgium of 9/5/2016).

In addition, we are faced with a decision of filing by the Public Ministry which is subject to modification through various ways.


Thus, in addition to the recourse to the jurisdictional way, by opening the inquiry (see note p.21) (art. 287° of the CPP) and the complaint to the hierarchical superior (art. 278° of the CPP), the investigation can be reopened if new elements of evidence arise invalidating the grounds called upon by the Public Ministry in the filing dispatch (art. 279° of the CPP).


This is indeed even mentioned in the Note to the Social Communication released by the Attorney General's office on 21/7/2008 and announcing that the filing of the investigation had been decided. It was reported that it could be reopened on the initiative of the Public Ministry or at the request of any interested party if new elements of evidence arise triggering serious, pertinent and consequential proceedings (n°14 of the proven facts).

In this way, as the aforementioned filing order is not a judicial decision stricto senso, nor does it assume a definitive form, less would it be justified invoking the principle of the presumption of innocence to restrain freedom of expression.

And the safeguarding of the authority of the judicial power (cf. article 10°-2 of the European Convention on Human Rights) is not alluded to, since is definitely outdated the traditional idea that criticism against the judicial power must be proscribed as it contributes to the undermining of its dignity, authority and credibility in the long term. The best guarantee of dignity of all State institutions in the long run consists in its permanent opening to public criticism.
 
Page 70
...(cf. Jónatas Machado, Freedom of Expression - Constitutional Dimensions, op. cit. pp. 566-7)

And let not be said, too, that the appellants were cleared by the order of filing the criminal proceedings.

In fact, that dispatch was not proclaimed by virtue of the Public Ministry having gained the conviction that the appellants had not committed any crime (cf. art. 277° of the CPP).

The filing, in this case, was decided because it was not possible for Public Ministry to obtain sufficient evidence of the practice of crimes by the appellants (cf. the cited art. 277°-2)

There is, therefore, a remarkable difference, and not merely a semantic one, between the legally admissible grounds of the filing order.

Thus, it does not appear acceptable to consider that the alluded dispatch, based on the insufficiency of evidence, should be treated as evidence of innocence.

We consider, therefore, that the invocation of breach of the principle of presumption of innocence should not be upheld. That principle does not fall under the decision about the question that has to be resolved.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
IMO the SC contradicts its own reasoning for not breaching the principle of presumption of innocence & the role it played in Amaral's rights.

Thank you Misty. I can now see that the judges report did not contain the words you used;

"the SC referred to the McCanns not having demonstrated their innocence"

It seems that was your opinion of what they said, which is why cites are important.

The judges actually said;

Page 70
And let not be said, too, that the appellants were cleared by the order of filing the criminal proceedings.

They were referring to a specific claim by Duarte that the filing order cleared the McCanns;

Page 40
and already cleared before through the filing dispatch of a criminal investigation

Duarte made a claim and the judges examined it and rejected it. Any comments they made have to be understood in that context and no other.

The presumption of innocence, which was first raised in the first trial, was said to have been violated by Amaral. Not because of what he wrote and said, because;

Now the thesis that the minor died accidentally in the apartment and that this fact was hidden by her parents, who spread and fed, in order to deceive, an hypothesis of abduction, is not new, there's nothing new neither in the book, in the interview or in the documentary.

This theory of the facts comes from the own investigation, it is shaped in the chief inspector Tavares de Almeida's report (No. 9), it was an avenue pursued by the investigation (paragraphs 10 and 11), it determined the constitution of the claimants Gerald and Kate McCann as arguidos and was put within the reach of the media, and soon of the general public through a copy of the inquest (paragraphs 65 and 66) .
Page 34 http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6307.0

In other words, Amaral repeated what had already been said, he said nothing new. So the judge turned to the restrictions which, she argued, stopped Amaral from saying what was already known.

Putting it as clearly as I can she said he wasn't allowed full freedom of speech because he was a retired PJ Inspector. Judges, courts and officials must not use their knowledge of cases to accuse people because that could interfere with their right to a fair trial in any future proceedings by taking away the right to the presumption of innocence. .

The Appeal and Supreme Court judges all ruled that Amaral's freedom of speech was not restricted. Therefore he didn't break the rules or interfere with the right of the McCanns to the presumption of innocence.

It was the McCanns lawyer who subsequently tried to argue that the presumption of innocence was related to her client's right to a good name, etc. The judges also rejected that claim because the McCanns hadn't been deprived of that right at any stage of the investigation, and Amaral had enjoyed full freedom of speech because he had not used privileged information; it was already in the public domain before he said anything. 

The arguments are spread over eight years and are complex. I hope I've managed to clarify why and in what context certain things were discussed.




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Offline misty

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #273 on: September 15, 2017, 03:28:19 PM »
Thank you Misty. I can now see that the judges report did not contain the words you used;

"the SC referred to the McCanns not having demonstrated their innocence"

It seems that was your opinion of what they said, which is why cites are important.

The judges actually said;

Page 70
And let not be said, too, that the appellants were cleared by the order of filing the criminal proceedings.

They were referring to a specific claim by Duarte that the filing order cleared the McCanns;

Page 40
and already cleared before through the filing dispatch of a criminal investigation

Duarte made a claim and the judges examined it and rejected it. Any comments they made have to be understood in that context and no other.

The presumption of innocence, which was first raised in the first trial, was said to have been violated by Amaral. Not because of what he wrote and said, because;

Now the thesis that the minor died accidentally in the apartment and that this fact was hidden by her parents, who spread and fed, in order to deceive, an hypothesis of abduction, is not new, there's nothing new neither in the book, in the interview or in the documentary.

This theory of the facts comes from the own investigation, it is shaped in the chief inspector Tavares de Almeida's report (No. 9), it was an avenue pursued by the investigation (paragraphs 10 and 11), it determined the constitution of the claimants Gerald and Kate McCann as arguidos and was put within the reach of the media, and soon of the general public through a copy of the inquest (paragraphs 65 and 66) .
Page 34 http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6307.0

In other words, Amaral repeated what had already been said, he said nothing new. So the judge turned to the restrictions which, she argued, stopped Amaral from saying what was already known.

Putting it as clearly as I can she said he wasn't allowed full freedom of speech because he was a retired PJ Inspector. Judges, courts and officials must not use their knowledge of cases to accuse people because that could interfere with their right to a fair trial in any future proceedings by taking away the right to the presumption of innocence. .

The Appeal and Supreme Court judges all ruled that Amaral's freedom of speech was not restricted. Therefore he didn't break the rules or interfere with the right of the McCanns to the presumption of innocence.

It was the McCanns lawyer who subsequently tried to argue that the presumption of innocence was related to her client's right to a good name, etc. The judges also rejected that claim because the McCanns hadn't been deprived of that right at any stage of the investigation, and Amaral had enjoyed full freedom of speech because he had not used privileged information; it was already in the public domain before he said anything. 

The arguments are spread over eight years and are complex. I hope I've managed to clarify why and in what context certain things were discussed.

We will have to agree to disagree. At every point before the McCanns were officially declared arguidos, Amaral wrote about them as though they were guilty & each point was laboured. Very rarely were they afforded the privilege of being portrayed as the innocent victims of  a possible crime rather than the perpetrators and that lack of privilege was extended by the SC who agreed that right to express the unproven thesis exceeded the right to be seen as innocent citizens in the eyes of those who had viewed the book/documentary.

Offline G-Unit

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #274 on: September 15, 2017, 04:10:36 PM »
We will have to agree to disagree. At every point before the McCanns were officially declared arguidos, Amaral wrote about them as though they were guilty & each point was laboured. Very rarely were they afforded the privilege of being portrayed as the innocent victims of  a possible crime rather than the perpetrators and that lack of privilege was extended by the SC who agreed that right to express the unproven thesis exceeded the right to be seen as innocent citizens in the eyes of those who had viewed the book/documentary.

I agree, we will never agree. The trouble is that no matter how upset the McCanns felt by what he said they had to prove libel. That was always going to be difficult because he said nothing that hadn't been said before, as the first judge acknowledged.

She found him in breach of his duty of reserve and of violating the McCanns right to the presumption of innocence. The higher courts rejected her findings and in my opinion the McCann's lawyers could find nothing to replace them. I think any contradictions and confusions arose from Duarte's efforts as she used wilder and wilder arguments to try to win her case. That's how I see it anyway.
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Offline sadie

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #275 on: September 15, 2017, 04:23:15 PM »
O M G sadie it wasnt there home/garden was it. 

Your own home ,front door locked back door leading to garden.

not half the street using it.

They were in a bar, eating drinking.

Butlins was perhaps unsafe, just the same as them leaving three children alone. [on holiday]

They fight for there rights, where as maddie didn't have a choice
OMG Kizzy.

I have never siad it was their home back garden, but I have said that it was LIKE their home back garden. ...   And a block of flats with its own garden, perhaps with childrens play area etc in the UK.  Posh private iones with tennis Courts and swimming pool maybe ... would you consider that like their own back garden?  ... Do get your facts right pls.

THey were NOT in the BAR, they were in a different building, it was the RESTAURANT. ... Do get your facts right pls.

Maybe Butlins was unsafe cos the checkers never went in to physically check the children.  The Mccanns went in and physically checked them ... Matt too, the second time he checked, but unfortunately he didn't look around the corner at Madeleines bed.   ... BTW, ave you ever complained to Butlins about their checking system?  Are you reserving all the complaints for the Mccanns.  ... Why?

THe Mccanns fight for Madeleine all the time and clearing their names of smears has to be part of it.   If all the propaganda and lies put out by people who are ignorant of the facts were allowed to stand unchallenged, then their names would be so trashed that no-one would support them in their labour of love, searching for their Madeleine
... Do you think that you could be ignorant of the facts perchance?

Offline slartibartfast

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #276 on: September 15, 2017, 05:55:46 PM »
This might not affect their human rights per se, but I shall never forget how The Mccanns were told dates for certain processes in the trial and after arranging time off work, childcare, companions, flights, hotels, Lawyers etc and psyching themselves up, at the very last minute they were told that the sitting that day had been cancelled. 

This happened several times with the weakest of reasons given.  On at least one occasion they actually arrived at Court to be turned away IIRC

This was a massively destructive thing for them and undoubtedly violated their Human Rights.  It seemed a deliberate ploy IMO.   I doubt that the ECHR will take this on board but IMO they should

It's a trial, these things don't run on strict timelines.
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Offline slartibartfast

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #277 on: September 15, 2017, 05:57:32 PM »
The presumption of innocence is as valid in a civil trial as in a criminal trial. The mere fact that the SC referred to the McCanns not having demonstrated their innocence is evidence that the scales were not balanced, especially in light of the fact that no crime had been proven to have occurred.

As they were not the defendants in a criminal or civil trial their innocence or guilt was not under consideration.
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Offline slartibartfast

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #278 on: September 15, 2017, 06:03:08 PM »
Well said Rob

IMO the constant calls for cites when it has all been thoroughly discussed before, with conclusions reached based upon evidence, is just a method of disrupting and wasting the original posters time.  Also diverting away from what that poster said. 

Some of these topics have been disected and analysed 3 or 4 times before over the months/years and sound conclusions reached based upon solid evidence, yet it seems that some like to have "forgotten" the solid fact based conclusions reached.

An easy tool for disruption and breaking the flow innit?

Probably due to some posters proposing fantasitical scenarios and backing them up with "I seem to recall" or "If I remember correctly" this is not acceptable.
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Offline misty

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #279 on: September 15, 2017, 07:23:26 PM »
As they were not the defendants in a criminal or civil trial their innocence or guilt was not under consideration.

The right not to have their reputations tarnished by opinionated accusations of guilt was the core matter of the trial, in addition to the damaging effect those accusations had on the continued search for Madeleine. IMO.

Offline jassi

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #280 on: September 15, 2017, 07:31:52 PM »
The right not to have their reputations tarnished by opinionated accusations of guilt was the core matter of the trial, in addition to the damaging effect those accusations had on the continued search for Madeleine. IMO.

Amaral  was declared to be innocent of that charge, therefore their reputation was not tarnished by him.
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future

Offline Robittybob1

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #281 on: September 15, 2017, 07:38:54 PM »
Amaral  was declared to be innocent of that charge, therefore their reputation was not tarnished by him.
And hence the need to take it to the ECHR.
Moderation
John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.

Offline jassi

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #282 on: September 15, 2017, 07:41:18 PM »
Its not clear to me what the basis of their case is, other that it has absolutely nothing to do with Amaral.
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future

Offline Robittybob1

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #283 on: September 15, 2017, 07:44:13 PM »
Its not clear to me what the basis of their case is, other that it has absolutely nothing to do with Amaral.
If I understand it correctly the McCanns question the Supreme Court decision.  They are not questioning Amaral's actions at this point in time.
Moderation
John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.

Offline jassi

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #284 on: September 15, 2017, 07:46:25 PM »
If I understand it correctly the McCanns question the Supreme Court decision.  They are not questioning Amaral's actions at this point in time.

Or at any future time as that is all finished.
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future