Author Topic: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights  (Read 530325 times)

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Offline sadie

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #315 on: September 15, 2017, 10:31:58 PM »
I can appreciate your difficulties Sadie; I have a cataract which hinders me. I have been criticised for requesting cites but unless they are provided there is no way to check whether the poster is posting a fact, their own interpretation of a fact or just their opinion. Stating opinion as if it were a fact is against forum rules, but it happens. Without cites discussions then become arguments about opinions.   

A discussion based on opinion is very easy; it can be as simple as 'Yes it is!' 'No it isn't!'. That isn't a discussion in my opinion, it's a school yard argument. Clarity, not disruption is my aim.
Do have the operation, Gunit.  My hubby has had both eyes done and is amazed at the improvement.  They used to say that you had to wait until they were "ripe", but I have heard that they have changed their minds on that.  Operations on the eyes are not a pleasant thought, but he says that it wasn't much at all.  Do go for it asap Gunit.  An impressive success rate, I believe.

I too have problems with seeing, but mine is blur and flashing lights occasionally + running eyes.  Horrible.
I have to rest them often.  Some of it is to do with diabetes but much of it is to do with too much computer work on this forum

With the cites business, I will try to find one if it is something that hasn't been discussed thoroughly on here, but if it has and fairly recently then I am not risking my sight on any more searching

Offline misty

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #316 on: September 15, 2017, 11:19:45 PM »
You do actually realise what you have posted? Portugal has been criticised by the ECHR for favouring The Right to a Good Name over Freedom of Expression.

I posted that section in the context of re-opening a case, not what the judgement was about. There are examples where the ECHR has ruled against freedom of expression.

Chauvy & Ors v France
https://www.article19.org/resources.php/resource/2310/en/case-of-chauvy-and-others-v.-france

A v Norway
http://merlin.obs.coe.int/iris/2009/6/article2.en.html


ETA      A v Norway is particularly pertinent in its similarities to the McCann case.

IRIS 2009-6:3/2
European Court of Human Rights
Case of A. v. Norway
 Dirk Voorhoof Ghent University (Belgium) & Copenhagen University (Denmark) & Member of the Flemish Regulator for the Media
The European Court in a recent judgment clarified the relation of the freedom of the press (Art. 10) vis à vis the right of privacy (Art. 8) and the presumption of innocence (Art. 6 para. 2) in a case of crime-reporting in the media. The applicant, A, is a Norwegian national with a criminal past. The case concerns A’s complaint about the unfavourable outcome of a defamation suit he brought against the Fœdrelandsvennen newspaper, following its publication of two articles concerning the preliminary investigation into a murder case which implicated him. A had been questioned as a possible witness about the murder of two young women, but was released after 10 hours. The police’s interest in A attracted considerable media attention. Fœdrelandsvennen disclosed details of A’s criminal convictions and stated that he had allegedly been seen by witnesses in the very same area and at the same time as the girls were killed. A television station, TV2, also reported in a news broadcast on the case and presented A as a murderer.

A brought defamation proceedings against the Fœdrelandsvennen newspaper and TV2, as further investigation and proceedings made it clear that he had nothing to do with the murder case. The Norwegian courts found in his favour and awarded him compensation as regards the TV2 report. In respect of the newspaper articles, however, the domestic courts agreed that the publications had been defamatory, in as much as they were capable of giving the ordinary reader the impression that the applicant was regarded as the most probable perpetrator of the murders, yet concluded that, on balance, the newspaper had been right to publish the articles, as it had acted in the interest of the general public, which had the right to be informed of the developments in the investigation and the pursuit of the perpetrators. Relying on Article 6§2 (presumption of innocence) and Article 8 (right to respect for private and family life), A complained in Strasbourg that the domestic courts’ findings - to the extent that the Fœdrelandsvennen newspaper was found to have a right to publish defamatory material about him - had negatively affected his right to be presumed innocent until proven otherwise, as well as his private life.
The Court dismissed A’s allegations under Article 6 para. 2, as it found that Article not applicable to the matters at hand, given in particular that no public authority had charged A with a criminal offence and that the disputed newspaper publications did not amount to an affirmation that he was guilty of the crimes in question. The Court, however, was of the opinion that the articles had been defamatory in nature, as they had given the impression that the applicant had been a prime suspect in the murder case of the two girls. While it is undisputed that the press have the right to deliver information to the public and the public have the right to receive such information, these considerations did not justify the defamatory allegations against A and the consequent harm done to him. Indeed, the applicant had been persecuted by journalists seeking to obtain pictures and interviews from him, this being during a period in his life when he had been undergoing rehabilitation and reintegration into society. As a result of the journalistic reports, he found himself unable to continue his work, had to leave his home and was driven to social exclusion. In the Court's view there was no reasonable relationship of proportionality between the interests relied on by the domestic courts in safeguarding Fædrelandsvennen' freedom of expression and those of the applicant in having his honour, reputation and privacy protected. The Court was therefore not satisfied that the national courts struck a fair balance between the newspaper's freedom of expression under Article 10 and the applicant's right to respect for his private life under Article 8, notwithstanding the wide margin of appreciation available to the national authorities. The Court concluded that the publications in question had gravely damaged A’s reputation and honour and had been especially harmful to his moral and psychological integrity and to his private life, in violation of Article 8.

References
■   Judgment by the European Court of Human Rights (First Section), case of A. v. Norway, Application no. 28070/06 of 9 April 2009
« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 01:48:47 AM by misty »

Offline G-Unit

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #317 on: September 16, 2017, 06:43:46 AM »
Do have the operation, Gunit.  My hubby has had both eyes done and is amazed at the improvement.  They used to say that you had to wait until they were "ripe", but I have heard that they have changed their minds on that.  Operations on the eyes are not a pleasant thought, but he says that it wasn't much at all.  Do go for it asap Gunit.  An impressive success rate, I believe.

I too have problems with seeing, but mine is blur and flashing lights occasionally + running eyes.  Horrible.
I have to rest them often.  Some of it is to do with diabetes but much of it is to do with too much computer work on this forum

With the cites business, I will try to find one if it is something that hasn't been discussed thoroughly on here, but if it has and fairly recently then I am not risking my sight on any more searching

I take it you know how to make your screen bigger, if that would halp you?
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Offline G-Unit

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #318 on: September 16, 2017, 07:22:23 AM »
I posted that section in the context of re-opening a case, not what the judgement was about. There are examples where the ECHR has ruled against freedom of expression.

Chauvy & Ors v France
https://www.article19.org/resources.php/resource/2310/en/case-of-chauvy-and-others-v.-france

A v Norway
http://merlin.obs.coe.int/iris/2009/6/article2.en.html


ETA      A v Norway is particularly pertinent in its similarities to the McCann case.

IRIS 2009-6:3/2
European Court of Human Rights
Case of A. v. Norway
 Dirk Voorhoof Ghent University (Belgium) & Copenhagen University (Denmark) & Member of the Flemish Regulator for the Media
The European Court in a recent judgment clarified the relation of the freedom of the press (Art. 10) vis à vis the right of privacy (Art. 8) and the presumption of innocence (Art. 6 para. 2) in a case of crime-reporting in the media. The applicant, A, is a Norwegian national with a criminal past. The case concerns A’s complaint about the unfavourable outcome of a defamation suit he brought against the Fœdrelandsvennen newspaper, following its publication of two articles concerning the preliminary investigation into a murder case which implicated him. A had been questioned as a possible witness about the murder of two young women, but was released after 10 hours. The police’s interest in A attracted considerable media attention. Fœdrelandsvennen disclosed details of A’s criminal convictions and stated that he had allegedly been seen by witnesses in the very same area and at the same time as the girls were killed. A television station, TV2, also reported in a news broadcast on the case and presented A as a murderer.

A brought defamation proceedings against the Fœdrelandsvennen newspaper and TV2, as further investigation and proceedings made it clear that he had nothing to do with the murder case. The Norwegian courts found in his favour and awarded him compensation as regards the TV2 report. In respect of the newspaper articles, however, the domestic courts agreed that the publications had been defamatory, in as much as they were capable of giving the ordinary reader the impression that the applicant was regarded as the most probable perpetrator of the murders, yet concluded that, on balance, the newspaper had been right to publish the articles, as it had acted in the interest of the general public, which had the right to be informed of the developments in the investigation and the pursuit of the perpetrators. Relying on Article 6§2 (presumption of innocence) and Article 8 (right to respect for private and family life), A complained in Strasbourg that the domestic courts’ findings - to the extent that the Fœdrelandsvennen newspaper was found to have a right to publish defamatory material about him - had negatively affected his right to be presumed innocent until proven otherwise, as well as his private life.
The Court dismissed A’s allegations under Article 6 para. 2, as it found that Article not applicable to the matters at hand, given in particular that no public authority had charged A with a criminal offence and that the disputed newspaper publications did not amount to an affirmation that he was guilty of the crimes in question. The Court, however, was of the opinion that the articles had been defamatory in nature, as they had given the impression that the applicant had been a prime suspect in the murder case of the two girls. While it is undisputed that the press have the right to deliver information to the public and the public have the right to receive such information, these considerations did not justify the defamatory allegations against A and the consequent harm done to him. Indeed, the applicant had been persecuted by journalists seeking to obtain pictures and interviews from him, this being during a period in his life when he had been undergoing rehabilitation and reintegration into society. As a result of the journalistic reports, he found himself unable to continue his work, had to leave his home and was driven to social exclusion. In the Court's view there was no reasonable relationship of proportionality between the interests relied on by the domestic courts in safeguarding Fædrelandsvennen' freedom of expression and those of the applicant in having his honour, reputation and privacy protected. The Court was therefore not satisfied that the national courts struck a fair balance between the newspaper's freedom of expression under Article 10 and the applicant's right to respect for his private life under Article 8, notwithstanding the wide margin of appreciation available to the national authorities. The Court concluded that the publications in question had gravely damaged A’s reputation and honour and had been especially harmful to his moral and psychological integrity and to his private life, in violation of Article 8.

References
■   Judgment by the European Court of Human Rights (First Section), case of A. v. Norway, Application no. 28070/06 of 9 April 2009

There are differences;

"A brought defamation proceedings against the Fœdrelandsvennen newspaper and TV2, as further investigation and proceedings made it clear that he had nothing to do with the murder case."

Amaral may have given the impression that they had committed a crime, but so did the police investigation files. Even when the case was archived the report didn't make it clear that they had nothing to do with the disappearance of their daughter.

"As a result of the journalistic reports, he found himself unable to continue his work, had to leave his home and was driven to social exclusion."

The McCanns were unable to demonstrate any such problems as a result of Amaral's thesis.
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #319 on: September 16, 2017, 07:52:24 AM »
There are differences;

"A brought defamation proceedings against the Fœdrelandsvennen newspaper and TV2, as further investigation and proceedings made it clear that he had nothing to do with the murder case."

Amaral may have given the impression that they had committed a crime, but so did the police investigation files. Even when the case was archived the report didn't make it clear that they had nothing to do with the disappearance of their daughter.

"As a result of the journalistic reports, he found himself unable to continue his work, had to leave his home and was driven to social exclusion."

The McCanns were unable to demonstrate any such problems as a result of Amaral's thesis.
I feel the test should be easier than that.  It should just be a test of "would you want that to happen to you?"  Would you want to be accused of contributing to the accidental death of your child, and the  subsequent accusation of disposal of the body? Would you want this without any proof that you did these things?  It should not depend on how resourceful the family is at getting back to work.  I can't imagine that is fair whether you  are a homeless drifter or a heart surgeon.
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Offline sadie

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #320 on: September 16, 2017, 09:29:38 AM »
I take it you know how to make your screen bigger, if that would halp you?

Thank you.  I already have a wide screen and I know how to enlarge the script, but it is a fiddle and i cant do it for emails etc.

I have woken up with sore eyes this morning, hubbies flue like cold coming on I suspect.  Anyway, dont worry about me.  I shall come in when I feel i can and try not to stay too long.  THe computer doesn't do my eyes any good.




Offline G-Unit

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #321 on: September 16, 2017, 10:06:27 AM »
I feel the test should be easier than that.  It should just be a test of "would you want that to happen to you?"  Would you want to be accused of contributing to the accidental death of your child, and the  subsequent accusation of disposal of the body? Would you want this without any proof that you did these things?  It should not depend on how resourceful the family is at getting back to work.  I can't imagine that is fair whether you  are a homeless drifter or a heart surgeon.

I always thought it was unfair to expect Amaral to change the opinion he formed during his time on the investigation because the investigation which followed was unable to propose another hypothesis. His hypothesis and the McCanns hypothesis both remained possibilities in the archiving report, but it seemed to me to give less credence to theirs.





« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 11:54:33 AM by Brietta »
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #322 on: September 16, 2017, 10:14:42 AM »


I always thought it was unfair to expect Amaral to change the opinion he formed during his time on the investigation because the investigation which followed was unable to propose another hypothesis. His hypothesis and the McCanns hypothesis both remained possibilities in the archiving report, but it seemed to me to give less credence to theirs.

Well even if they were accused by the press of bumbling, that doesn't justify taking it out on the McCanns.   One could think they had a slight advantage for they would know that they had not done what Amaral had said they did.
 
« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 11:55:55 AM by Brietta »
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stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #323 on: September 16, 2017, 10:22:41 AM »
Well even if they were accused by the press of bumbling, that doesn't justify taking it out on the McCanns.   One could think they had a slight advantage for they would know that they had not done what Amaral had said they did.

How would you know what the McCann's did or did not do Rob ?

So would your belief be, that if police had a theory about a potential crime, that no one should make allegations in case of libel ?

N.B. Look up the case of Jeffrey Archer and the prostitute.

Offline Robittybob1

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #324 on: September 16, 2017, 10:27:50 AM »
How would you know what the McCann's did or did not do Rob ?

So would your belief be, that if police had a theory about a potential crime, that no one should make allegations in case of libel ?

N.B. Look up the case of Jeffrey Archer and the prostitute.
I'm saying the McCanns know what they have done or not done.

Question: If police had a theory about a potential crime, that no one should make allegations in case of libel?

Their role is to find evidence, not a trial by media.

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stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #325 on: September 16, 2017, 10:37:36 AM »
I'm saying the McCanns know what they have done or not done.

Question: If police had a theory about a potential crime, that no one should make allegations in case of libel?

Their role is to find evidence, not a trial by media.

Yet you are happy that the McCann's used the media for their own ends, regardless of the situation that there was no evidence to support abduction, other than their say so ?

They weren't there of course when Madeleine disappeared, WERE THEY.

Offline Robittybob1

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #326 on: September 16, 2017, 10:40:04 AM »
Taking it out on the McCanns? He described the investigation. How could he do that without explaining how they came to be suspected?

You talk about what they 'know', but you can only really refer to what they have said. You may believe what they say but neither you nor they can prove it.
It is more than what they say, it is what they know.  You must admit the McCanns must know what they have done or not done.  It is their life we are talking about.  They might not know what happened to Madeleine they would know what they did or not (which is the usual case unless someone is intoxicated).
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Offline G-Unit

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #327 on: September 16, 2017, 10:46:21 AM »
I'm saying the McCanns know what they have done or not done.

Question: If police had a theory about a potential crime, that no one should make allegations in case of libel?

Their role is to find evidence, not a trial by media.

I saw a couple use the media to persuade the world that their daughter had been abducted. I saw them threaten and attempt to silence anyone who expressed doubts about their story. Their supporters them handed a dossier to police and Sky news of people on the internet who expressed doubts about their story. The people who involved the media in this case were not the Portuguese police, that's for sure.
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #328 on: September 16, 2017, 10:47:04 AM »
Yet you are happy that the McCann's used the media for their own ends, regardless of the situation that there was no evidence to support abduction, other than their say so ?

They weren't there of course when Madeleine disappeared, WERE THEY.
If they didn't dispose of a body what other options are there to abduction?  All the early phone calls to their friends the McCanns talk of abduction because, as is natural, they would be aware if they had disposed of her.  There was no other likely option.  Even if she had wandered outside, it was unlike Madeleine to wander down town or across country.  Parents know their kids.  If she had wandered she was still abducted at some point IMO.
 
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #329 on: September 16, 2017, 10:49:31 AM »
I saw a couple use the media to persuade the world that their daughter had been abducted. I saw them threaten and attempt to silence anyone who expressed doubts about their story. Their supporters them handed a dossier to police and Sky news of people on the internet who expressed doubts about their story. The people who involved the media in this case were not the Portuguese police, that's for sure.
Media was the book and the interview they refer to.
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