Author Topic: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights  (Read 530369 times)

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Offline Mr Gray

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #1755 on: June 23, 2018, 09:09:50 AM »
I don't know because the prosecutor used the words 'there are no indications of having committed any crime' for all three arguidos. I don't know what is meant by indication in Portuguese. I know it's not evidence (evidencia) or proof (prova).

To fulfil the requirements of 277/1 it was necessary for the prosecutor to be satisfied that there was sufficient evidence that the arguidos didn't commit the crime. He doesn't say that.

Prosecutor... There are no indications they committed any crime
Pedro De Carmo... There is no evidence against the parents
Does that not suggest to you that the parents are not guilty
« Last Edit: July 02, 2018, 02:24:05 PM by John »

Offline Mr Gray

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #1756 on: June 23, 2018, 09:18:29 AM »
I don't know because the prosecutor used the words 'there are no indications of having committed any crime' for all three arguidos. I don't know what is meant by indication in Portuguese. I know it's not evidence (evidencia) or proof (prova).

To fulfil the requirements of 277/1 it was necessary for the prosecutor to be satisfied that there was sufficient evidence that the arguidos didn't commit the crime. He doesn't say that.

AsI remember in the archiving report the prosecutor  gave a list of reasons, why the McCann's could not have committed the grime... This in my view is his evidence that the McCann's did not commit the crime

Offline Carana

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #1757 on: June 23, 2018, 09:24:00 AM »
indício

indication n (plural: indications)
sign n
O paciente está mostrando indícios de melhora.  The patient is showing signs of recovery.
clue n (plural: clues)
Se acharmos mais indícios, podemos resolver o mistério.  If we find more clues, we can solve the mystery.
hint n
A economia está dando claros indícios de crescimento.  The economy is giving clear hints of growth.
less common: evidence n
·
trace n
·
manifestation n
·
inkling n
·
glimpse n
Examples:
forte indício m—strong indication n
bom indício m—good indication n
·
good indicator n
indício suficiente m—sufficient indication n

https://www.linguee.com/english-portuguese/search?query=ind%C3%ADcio

Offline G-Unit

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #1758 on: June 23, 2018, 10:13:32 AM »
indício

indication n (plural: indications)
sign n
O paciente está mostrando indícios de melhora.  The patient is showing signs of recovery.
clue n (plural: clues)
Se acharmos mais indícios, podemos resolver o mistério.  If we find more clues, we can solve the mystery.
hint n
A economia está dando claros indícios de crescimento.  The economy is giving clear hints of growth.
less common: evidence n
·
trace n
·
manifestation n
·
inkling n
·
glimpse n
Examples:
forte indício m—strong indication n
bom indício m—good indication n
·
good indicator n
indício suficiente m—sufficient indication n

https://www.linguee.com/english-portuguese/search?query=ind%C3%ADcio

Thanks, Carana, very interesting. I was thinking about the fact that the crime wasn't identified. Is the prosecutor saying there were no indications they committed the crimes he listed? What if new information came in which proved that a completely different crime had been committed?
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Offline Mr Gray

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #1759 on: June 23, 2018, 10:19:56 AM »
Thanks, Carana, very interesting. I was thinking about the fact that the crime wasn't identified. Is the prosecutor saying there were no indications they committed the crimes he listed? What if new information came in which proved that a completely different crime had been committed?

I would think everyone  understands that if new evidence emerged the situation would change. .but 11 years and no evidence  against the parents saysvit all.. Imo

Offline Angelo222

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #1760 on: June 23, 2018, 10:57:32 AM »
I would think everyone  understands that if new evidence emerged the situation would change. .but 11 years and no evidence  against the parents saysvit all.. Imo

But there is evidence of a conspiracy to undermine the investigation.
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #1761 on: June 23, 2018, 11:47:26 AM »
I wonder what would have happened if the case had lead to charges instead of being archived ?


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Offline faithlilly

Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline Robittybob1

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #1763 on: June 23, 2018, 11:55:04 AM »
But there is evidence of a conspiracy to undermine the investigation.
Possible but I wouldn't say proven.
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Offline Carana

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #1764 on: June 23, 2018, 01:25:40 PM »
Thanks, Carana, very interesting. I was thinking about the fact that the crime wasn't identified. Is the prosecutor saying there were no indications they committed the crimes he listed? What if new information came in which proved that a completely different crime had been committed?

Which crimes do you mean? He provided a wide range of possible crimes near the beginning, incuding various types of abduction, parental involvement, etc.

Later, aside from his doubts over the frequency of the checks (he seems to assume that it was Madeleine that Mrs Fenn had heard) and his consideration of the crime of abandonment, which he dismissed due to the absence of intent, he then goes to give his reasons for the "non involvement of the arguidos parents of Madeleine in any penally relevant action".



The non involvement of the arguidos parents of Madeleine in any penally relevant action seems to result from the objective circumstances of them not being inside the apartment when she disappeared, from the normal behaviour that they adopted until said disappearance and afterwards, as can be amply concluded from the witness statements, from the telephone communications analysis and also from the forensics' conclusions, namely the Reports from the FSS and from the National Institute for Legal Medicine.

To this can be added that, in reality, none of the indications that led to their constitution as arguidos was later confirmed or consolidated. If not, let us see: the information concerning a previous alert of the media before the polices was not confirmed, the traces that were marked by the dogs were not ratified in laboratory, and the initial indications from the above transcribed email, better clarified at a later date, ended up being revealed as innocuous.

Even if, hypothetically, one could admit that Gerald and Kate McCann might be responsible over the child's death, it would still have to be explained how, where through, when, with what means, with the help of whom and where to they freed themselves of her body within the restricted time frame that would have been available to them to do so. Their daily routine, until the 3rd of May, had been circumscribed to the narrow borders of the 'Ocean Club' resort and to the beach that lies next to it, unknowing the surrounding terrain and, apart from the English friends that were with them on holiday there, they had no known friends or contacts in Portugal.


All this bearing in mind that:


- Despite all of this, it was not possible to obtain any piece of evidence that would allow for a medium man, under the light of the criteria of logics, of normality and of the general rules of experience, to formulate any lucid, sensate, serious and honest conclusion about the circumstances under which the child was removed from the apartment (whether dead or alive, whether killed in a neglectful homicide or an intended homicide, whether the victim of a targeted abduction or an opportunistic abduction), nor even to produce a consistent prognosis about her destiny and inclusively - the most dramatic - to establish whether she is still alive or if she is dead, as seems more likely.

But therefore we do not possess any minimally solid and rigorous foundation in order to be able to state, with the safety that is requested, which was or were the exact and precise crime(s) that was or were practised on the person of the minor Madeleine McCann - apart from the supposed but dismissed crime of exposure or abandonment - or to hold anyone responsible over its authorship.

Finally, it should be underlined that this case, unfortunately, is not a police novel, an appropriate scenario for a "crime" that is tailored for the success of the investigative work of a Sherlock Holmes or a Hercule Poirot, guided by the illusion that the forces of law and justice always manage to re-establish the altered order, returning to society the peace and the tranquillity that were only accidentally disturbed.

The disappearance of Madeleine McCann is rather an implacable and intricate case of real life, which lies closer to the lucid narrative by Friedrich Duerrenmatt, - "The Pledge. Requiem for the police novel" - because reality and everyday life owe little or no obedience, most of the times, to logic.

Life's events do not conform to stereotyped novel-like schemes, it is rather the case that its outcome is often the product of chance or conditioned by accidental and unpredictable factors, and therefore, hard to envision.




If concrete evidence came to light of whichever crime - if any, envisaged or not - had befallen her, then that might that might shed more light on who may have been responsible.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #1765 on: June 23, 2018, 01:44:22 PM »
indício

indication n (plural: indications)
sign n
O paciente está mostrando indícios de melhora.  The patient is showing signs of recovery.
clue n (plural: clues)
Se acharmos mais indícios, podemos resolver o mistério.  If we find more clues, we can solve the mystery.
hint n
A economia está dando claros indícios de crescimento.  The economy is giving clear hints of growth.
less common: evidence n
·
trace n
·
manifestation n
·
inkling n
·
glimpse n
Examples:
forte indício m—strong indication n
bom indício m—good indication n
·
good indicator n
indício suficiente m—sufficient indication n

https://www.linguee.com/english-portuguese/search?query=ind%C3%ADcio

Ad I remember in the archiving despatch it says non of the indications used to make the McCann's arguidos.... That would show indications is used as a synonym for evidence

Offline Carana

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #1766 on: June 23, 2018, 01:50:21 PM »
Ad I remember in the archiving despatch it says non of the indications used to make the McCann's arguidos.... That would show indications is used as a synonym for evidence

Double-checked: further down that page, it can be translated as evidence, but it doesn't give an example of its use in context and is less common.

I checked some of the more reputable sources for examples and it was usually translated as indication or sign.

I don't think translating it as evidence makes sense, as it appears to be of a lesser order than the usual words for evidence and proof, i.e. indication, then evidence, then proof.


less common: evidence n
·
trace n
·
manifestation n
·
inkling n
·
glimpse n

Offline Mr Gray

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #1767 on: June 23, 2018, 01:55:11 PM »
Double-checked: further down that page, it can be translated as evidence, but it doesn't give an example of its use in context and is less common.

I checked some of the more reputable sources for examples and it was usually translated as indication or sign.

I don't think translating it as evidence makes sense, as it appears to be of a lesser order than the usual words for evidence and proof, i.e. indication, then evidence, then proof.


less common: evidence n
·
trace n
·
manifestation n
·
inkling n
·
glimpse n

I think the way it way it was used in the, archiving report is a good indication that in that context it was meant to mean evidence

Offline Carana

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #1768 on: June 23, 2018, 02:18:29 PM »
I think the way it way it was used in the, archiving report is a good indication that in that context it was meant to mean evidence

I don't think so as there's already a word for evidence in Portolegalese. Have a look for yourself through the examples further on taken from online translations. A slight caveat, some translations aren't professional, so it's worth checking the source. Europarl or Eurolex are reliable.

On the other hand, I've just found one instance of it used as meaning evidence.

E não consegui detectar nenhum indício de que a estabilização do Afeganistão é de alta prioridade para Washington.

And I've been unable to detect any evidence to the effect that the stabilisation of Afghanistan is a top priority for Washington.

Source: nato.int


However, looking into it, it seems to be the translation of an opinion piece by a native English-speaker, not a formal legal document.

So... I'm sticking with indication for the moment.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #1769 on: June 23, 2018, 02:24:40 PM »
I don't think so as there's already a word for evidence in Portolegalese. Have a look for yourself through the examples further on taken from online translations. A slight caveat, some translations aren't professional, so it's worth checking the source. Europarl or Eurolex are reliable.

On the other hand, I've just found one instance of it used as meaning evidence.

E não consegui detectar nenhum indício de que a estabilização do Afeganistão é de alta prioridade para Washington.

And I've been unable to detect any evidence to the effect that the stabilisation of Afghanistan is a top priority for Washington.

Source: nato.int


However, looking into it, it seems to be the translation of an opinion piece by a native English-speaker, not a formal legal document.

So... I'm sticking with indication for the moment.

Evidence.... The available body of information which indicates whether a belief is true...

So indications are evidence... Imo