Author Topic: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights  (Read 530322 times)

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Offline G-Unit

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #2535 on: October 22, 2018, 12:08:28 PM »
The fact that the lawyer has, declared an intention for a, review is evidence if not proof that a review of the original judgement is, a possibility ....which shows it may not be final

In a criminal case. Can this be done in a civil case?
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Offline Mr Gray

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #2536 on: October 22, 2018, 12:11:03 PM »
In a criminal case. Can this be done in a civil case?

Chsrlue Gard was civil

Offline slartibartfast

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #2537 on: October 22, 2018, 12:19:08 PM »
According to the ECHR website rules, apply to civil and criminal cases... I presume Charlie, Gard was a civil case
The point I am making is the SC judgement may not be final as posters thought

The Charlie Gard case was Interim Measures and failed.
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #2538 on: October 22, 2018, 12:26:38 PM »
The Charlie Gard case was Interim Measures and failed.

The application was made to enable Charlie to overturn the UK courts, decision and travel abroad. .the interim measure is put in place awaiting a full decision.... The case was inadmissable.... But not because it was, a civil case

Offline G-Unit

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #2539 on: October 22, 2018, 12:28:23 PM »
Chsrlue Gard was civil

I thought the ECHR didn't get involved in that case?
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Offline slartibartfast

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #2540 on: October 22, 2018, 12:52:24 PM »
I thought the ECHR didn't get involved in that case?

They applied and it was declared inadmissible.
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #2541 on: October 22, 2018, 12:57:53 PM »
I thought the ECHR didn't get involved in that case?

Charlie Gard: European court rejects plea to intervene in life-support fight

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/law/2017/jun/27/charlie-gard-european-court-rejects-plea-to-intervene-in-life-support-fight


Case heard by seven judges to overturn the decision of the UK courts and, allow  Charlie, to travel for treatment

It proves the domestic courts ruling could be overturned

Offline G-Unit

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #2542 on: October 22, 2018, 01:06:25 PM »
Charlie Gard: European court rejects plea to intervene in life-support fight

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/law/2017/jun/27/charlie-gard-european-court-rejects-plea-to-intervene-in-life-support-fight


Case heard by seven judges to overturn the decision of the UK courts and, allow  Charlie, to travel for treatment

It proves the domestic courts ruling could be overturned

I think you've misread it.

 the ECHR said it had, by a majority of the seven judges who considered the written arguments, declared the application inadmissible.
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Offline Sunny

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #2543 on: October 22, 2018, 01:24:26 PM »
I have already posted the link to this but this is the reasoning behind the Charlie Gard case being inadmissible


Home > Judgments > 2017 archive

Gard and Others v United Kingdom
The application to the European Court of Human Rights, brought by the parents of Charlie Gard was declared inadmissible.

The parents of Charlie Gard (CG) argued under Articles 2 and 5 of the convention (on both their own behalf and on behalf of CG) that the hospital had blocked life-sustaining treatment and as such CG was unlawfully deprived of his liberty. Further, they argued under Articles 6 and 8 that the declaration by the High Court and subsequent courts was a disproportionate interference in their parental rights because the test applied had been the "best interests" of the child rather than whether he would suffer "significant harm".

The court considered whether the parents had the standing to bring this application. Under Article 34 (and in accordance with Lambert and Others v France [GC] no. 43043/14), an applicant must be able to claim to be a victim of a violation of the convention. There had been some cases where parents had been able to apply on behalf of their minor children, the two key criteria being (1) the risk that the direct victim will otherwise be deprived of effective protection of his or her rights, and (2) the absence of a conflict of interests between the victim and the applicant.

In this case, the risk that CG would be deprived of effective protection of his rights if the application could not proceed was minimised as CG was represented by an independent professional court-appointed guardian.  Further, there was a conflict of interests in that there had been repeated findings in the domestic courts that what the parents sought for CG was not in his best interests. However, the court did not reach a final conclusion on this point as the court went on to examine the substantive arguments.

In respect of the parents' Art. 2 argument - that the hospital has blocked access to life-sustaining treatment - the court found that this argument was manifestly ill-founded. As concluded in Hristozov and Others v Bulgaria no. 47039/11, Art. 2 cannot be interpreted as requiring access to unauthorised medicinal products for the terminally ill to be regulated in any particular way (it was an agreed fact that the nucleoside treatment the parents wished to pursue was experimental, having never been tested on humans or animals).

The court further found that an appropriate framework was in place in domestic law (as previously found in Glass v UK no. 61827/00), that CG's wishes were expressed through his own guardian, that his parents were fully involved in the proceedings and represented, and that the hospital properly applied to the High Court to obtain a legal decision on the appropriate way forward.

There was a lack of clarity as to how the applicants were raising arguments of deprivation of liberty under Art. 5. The availability of a domestic legal framework and the possibility to apply to the domestic courts had already been established in relation to Art. 2 and so the court considered the complaint under Art. 5 was also manifestly ill-founded.

The parents' complaints under Art. 6 and 8, were also found to be manifestly ill-founded. The court found there had been an interference with the Article 8 rights of the parents. However, this interference did not constitute a violation as it is in accordance with the law, is a legitimate aim and is necessary in a democratic society. The UK's legal framework in such cases had already been established in Glass as consistent with the ECHR standards and the interference was aimed at protecting the health, morals, rights and freedoms of a minor and so was a legitimate aim.

The parents argued that the interference with their parental rights based on the "best interests" test of the child was unnecessary, and that the interference would only be justified if there was a risk of "significant harm" to the child. Firstly, the court found that it was appropriate for the treating hospital to turn to the courts as there was a conflict (this had been the point of the ECtHR's criticism in the previous cases of Lambert and Glass where there hadn't been access to court supervision). Secondly, the court considered the "best interests" test was well established in international law but that even if the test was "significant harm", the Court of Appeal and Supreme Court were justified in concluding there was such a risk. The UK Appeal Courts had reviewed the High Court's decision as well as the extensive expert evidence which concluded that CG was exposed to continued pain, suffering and distress and that the experimental treatment had no benefit and would prolong his suffering.

In conclusion, the court considered the framework as a whole had not been shown to be disproportionate. The decisions taken by the domestic courts were meticulous and thorough, ensured that all those concerned were represented throughout, heard high-quality expert evidence, accorded weight to all the arguments raised, and were reviewed at three levels of jurisdiction with clear and extensive reasoning.

The application was declared inadmissible.


Basically sadly Charlie Gard's parents were unlikely ever to have won this case from what I have read above.
http://www.familylawweek.co.uk/site.aspx?i=ed178491

Davel this is a very sad case and I can understand Charlie's parents wanting to do everything they could to save him but do you have an example of a defamation or libel case overturned by the ECHR?
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Offline Mr Gray

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #2544 on: October 22, 2018, 01:29:55 PM »
I think you've misread it.

 the ECHR said it had, by a majority of the seven judges who considered the written arguments, declared the application inadmissible.

I haven't missed anything... Why did Charlie's parents take the case to the, ECHR... answer that simple, question and you will understand

Offline Mr Gray

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #2545 on: October 22, 2018, 01:32:05 PM »
I have already posted the link to this but this is the reasoning behind the Charlie Gard case being inadmissible


Home > Judgments > 2017 archive

Gard and Others v United Kingdom
The application to the European Court of Human Rights, brought by the parents of Charlie Gard was declared inadmissible.

The parents of Charlie Gard (CG) argued under Articles 2 and 5 of the convention (on both their own behalf and on behalf of CG) that the hospital had blocked life-sustaining treatment and as such CG was unlawfully deprived of his liberty. Further, they argued under Articles 6 and 8 that the declaration by the High Court and subsequent courts was a disproportionate interference in their parental rights because the test applied had been the "best interests" of the child rather than whether he would suffer "significant harm".

The court considered whether the parents had the standing to bring this application. Under Article 34 (and in accordance with Lambert and Others v France [GC] no. 43043/14), an applicant must be able to claim to be a victim of a violation of the convention. There had been some cases where parents had been able to apply on behalf of their minor children, the two key criteria being (1) the risk that the direct victim will otherwise be deprived of effective protection of his or her rights, and (2) the absence of a conflict of interests between the victim and the applicant.

In this case, the risk that CG would be deprived of effective protection of his rights if the application could not proceed was minimised as CG was represented by an independent professional court-appointed guardian.  Further, there was a conflict of interests in that there had been repeated findings in the domestic courts that what the parents sought for CG was not in his best interests. However, the court did not reach a final conclusion on this point as the court went on to examine the substantive arguments.

In respect of the parents' Art. 2 argument - that the hospital has blocked access to life-sustaining treatment - the court found that this argument was manifestly ill-founded. As concluded in Hristozov and Others v Bulgaria no. 47039/11, Art. 2 cannot be interpreted as requiring access to unauthorised medicinal products for the terminally ill to be regulated in any particular way (it was an agreed fact that the nucleoside treatment the parents wished to pursue was experimental, having never been tested on humans or animals).

The court further found that an appropriate framework was in place in domestic law (as previously found in Glass v UK no. 61827/00), that CG's wishes were expressed through his own guardian, that his parents were fully involved in the proceedings and represented, and that the hospital properly applied to the High Court to obtain a legal decision on the appropriate way forward.

There was a lack of clarity as to how the applicants were raising arguments of deprivation of liberty under Art. 5. The availability of a domestic legal framework and the possibility to apply to the domestic courts had already been established in relation to Art. 2 and so the court considered the complaint under Art. 5 was also manifestly ill-founded.

The parents' complaints under Art. 6 and 8, were also found to be manifestly ill-founded. The court found there had been an interference with the Article 8 rights of the parents. However, this interference did not constitute a violation as it is in accordance with the law, is a legitimate aim and is necessary in a democratic society. The UK's legal framework in such cases had already been established in Glass as consistent with the ECHR standards and the interference was aimed at protecting the health, morals, rights and freedoms of a minor and so was a legitimate aim.

The parents argued that the interference with their parental rights based on the "best interests" test of the child was unnecessary, and that the interference would only be justified if there was a risk of "significant harm" to the child. Firstly, the court found that it was appropriate for the treating hospital to turn to the courts as there was a conflict (this had been the point of the ECtHR's criticism in the previous cases of Lambert and Glass where there hadn't been access to court supervision). Secondly, the court considered the "best interests" test was well established in international law but that even if the test was "significant harm", the Court of Appeal and Supreme Court were justified in concluding there was such a risk. The UK Appeal Courts had reviewed the High Court's decision as well as the extensive expert evidence which concluded that CG was exposed to continued pain, suffering and distress and that the experimental treatment had no benefit and would prolong his suffering.

In conclusion, the court considered the framework as a whole had not been shown to be disproportionate. The decisions taken by the domestic courts were meticulous and thorough, ensured that all those concerned were represented throughout, heard high-quality expert evidence, accorded weight to all the arguments raised, and were reviewed at three levels of jurisdiction with clear and extensive reasoning.

The application was declared inadmissible.


Basically sadly Charlie Gard's parents were unlikely ever to have won this case from what I have read above.
http://www.familylawweek.co.uk/site.aspx?i=ed178491

Davel this is a very sad case and I can understand Charlie's parents wanting to do everything they could to save him but do you have an example of a defamation or libel case overturned by the ECHR?

I am making this point.... A domestic courts decision is not final and can be overturned...

Let's get this basic fact sorted first

Offline G-Unit

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #2546 on: October 22, 2018, 01:38:34 PM »
I haven't missed anything... Why did Charlie's parents take the case to the, ECHR... answer that simple, question and you will understand

No decisions by the UK courts were overturned in this case, so what is your point?

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Offline Mr Gray

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #2547 on: October 22, 2018, 01:44:32 PM »
No decisions by the UK courts were overturned in this case, so what is your point?

For the twentieth time... You posted today that the, ECHR cannot overturn domestic courts, decisions.... That has been taken to mean the SC judgement is final
It's clear that domestic court judgements can be overturned and theteforevthe SC judgement in this case may not be the final decision

Offline G-Unit

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #2548 on: October 22, 2018, 01:51:16 PM »
For the twentieth time... You posted today that the, ECHR cannot overturn domestic courts, decisions.... That has been taken to mean the SC judgement is final
It's clear that domestic court judgements can be overturned and theteforevthe SC judgement in this case may not be the final decision

I have seen no examples of domestic court decisions being overturned.
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Offline Mr Gray

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #2549 on: October 22, 2018, 01:55:04 PM »
I have seen no examples of domestic court decisions being overturned.

I have shown attempts to overturn... Showing it is an option