Author Topic: Brexit has well and truly begun!  (Read 281174 times)

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Offline slartibartfast

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1500 on: March 13, 2019, 02:36:44 PM »
It doesn't matter what the people think now.What matters is what they said they wanted when they were asked. That's how a democratic process works. One person one vote one result.

Using that logic, if everyone changed their minds and the country was 100% remain, we should still leave because that was what they wanted then.
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1501 on: March 13, 2019, 06:21:55 PM »
Using that logic, if everyone changed their minds and the country was 100% remain, we should still leave because that was what they wanted then.

It was quite clear that there would be no going back.

"A once in a g\eneration decision"

"This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide"

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/517014/EU_referendum_leaflet_large_print.
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Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1502 on: March 13, 2019, 06:41:03 PM »
It was quite clear that there would be no going back.

"A once in a g\eneration decision"

"This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide"

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/517014/EU_referendum_leaflet_large_print.
The government has been thwarted by the opposition, which is led by someone you seem to have a lot of respect for.
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1503 on: March 13, 2019, 07:07:04 PM »
 @)(++(* love it...

With Theresa’s ‘turd’ deal flushed away, pray for an EU invasion
Marina Hyde
Marina Hyde
We need competency, and quick. Not this bunch of MPs who are finding out in real time the consequences of their actions
 @MarinaHyde
Wed 13 Mar 2019 12.30 GMT Last modified on Wed 13 Mar 2019 18.45 GMT

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 Theresa May speaking in the House of Commons.
 Theresa May speaking in the House of Commons. Photograph: Jessica Taylor/Xinhua/Barcroft Images
“It … sends a message … to the whole world,” croaked Theresa May to the Commons on Tuesday night, “about the sort of country … the United Kingdom will be … in the years and decades ahead.”

Fairly sure the world has got the message by now. They are “up to speed” and “across the detail” of the sort of country the UK is. The question of whether Brexit represented a midlife crisis or the descent into senility appears to have been answered. The land that likes to picture itself as a David Niven world war two movie is in fact a look-away episode of The Jeremy Kyle Show. On close inspection, the “beacon of democracy” turns out to be a bin fire.

Brexit: MPs debate ruling out no-deal exit from EU – Politics live
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By now, you will be aware that the prime minister failed to end her meaningful vote hoodoo, with this sequel to her last attempt – 2Meaningful 2Vote – knocked down by a margin of 149. Amusingly, some are suggesting that Meaningful Vote: Tokyo Drift could yet happen. A free vote on no deal takes place tonight, with potential amendments piling up. May herself ploughs on. It’s as if someone has popped a grey wig on Munch’s The Scream, then cast it in an ITV drama about the female governor of a category-A prison.

Quote of the debate – arguably quote of the entire Brexit – went to a Conservative backbencher by the name of Steve Double. “This is a turd of a deal,” he intoned to the House of Commons, “which has now been taken away and polished, and is now a polished turd. But it might be the best turd that we’ve got.”

For many, the now-reflexive action when they hear this kind of stuff is to inquire “why didn’t u put that on the side of ur bus m8???”. And yet, was Steve’s interjection in the actual chamber the moment that well-worn joke format ascended to its purest – which is to say, its most grotesque – form? Putting turd all over the side of a bus, having half the country vote for it, and then driving this dirty-protest-mobile past every single warning-sign of the past two and a half years has brought us to this particular precipice. Tuesday night’s Commons spectacle reminded me of one of Jonathan Swift’s last poems, about the Irish parliament – specifically this bit:

“Let them, when they once get in,
Sell the nation for a pin;
While they sit a-picking straws,
Let them rave at making laws;
While they never hold their tongue,
Let them dabble in their dung …
We may, while they strain their throats
Wipe our arses with their votes.”


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So yup, pretty much all covered by Dean Swift there back in the 1730s, right down to Theresa May’s strained throat. However unique this moment might feel, I suppose we must remember that politicians have been letting down their people for centuries and centuries.

Even so, the abysmal calibre of those in whose hands we’re in can feel remarkable. Nigel Dodds! Have you beheld Nigel? If you didn’t know he was the deputy leader of the DUP, you’d say he has the face of a head of geography who has been suspended pending an investigation into accusations he struck a pupil. Or perhaps you prefer Boris Johnson, who stood up to urge to parliament to “behave as a great country”. Says the guy who’s been behaving like a complete country since prep school. According to that guy, no deal is “the only safe path to self–respect”. Boris Johnson showing you the only safe path to self-respect is like Paul Burrell showing you the only safe path to dignity, or Hannibal Lecter showing you the only safe path home. With his elite-busting reference to “Carthaginian terms”, Boris is entirely of a piece with Jacob Rees-Mogg, who on Tuesday tweeted simply: “Dies irae, dies illa”. To read fan replies humbly begging “give us a clue Jacob!” (in vain) is to be reminded that all populists secretly hate their people; but these two do it openly.

 Jeremy Corbyn leaving his home in north London.
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 ‘Corbyn now seems to be back to pushing his phantom Brexit deal, as opposed to the second referendum he briefly suggested was Labour policy.’ Photograph: Luke Dray/Getty Images
Fans of sledgehammer imagery, meanwhile, may care to note that disgraced former Conservative politician Jeffrey Archer was sitting in the public gallery on Tuesday night, while disgraced former Labour member Fiona Onasanya became the first MP to vote while wearing an electronic tag. Four decades of gathering uselessness and mendacity had brought us to this occasion, to which we might as well picture Archer and Onasanya as bookends.

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If it feels unfair to lump most of the House of Commons in together, please don’t let it. It must not be forgotten that MPs voted 498 to 114 to trigger article 50 two years ago, apparently without a clue what the predictable implications of negotiating against the clock with a much stronger opponent were. Most of those 498 MPs are a reminder than no one in this country should ever suffer from impostor syndrome again. I really do hope to see as many of them as possible at the eventual public inquiry.

The story of Brexit since the referendum has in large part been the story of politicians finding out in real time what the thing they had already done actually meant, then deferring the admission or even acceptance of it. We hear a lot about low-information voters, but low-information politicians are the bigger problem. Even this week, Tory Brexiteers Esther McVey and Daniel Kawczynski were spreading arrant lies about enforced joining of the euro. It is traditional at these moments to ask if the politicians in question are stupid or liars; in the case of Esther and Daniel, the question is moot as they are both.

Westminster has become so unmoored from reality that half of its denizens can’t even remember which lie they told. In the wake of May’s defeat, Tory deputy chairman James Cleverly informed the BBC that she had “inherited this job”, like it was some loss-making family business May had sportingly tried to make a go of, as opposed to the position of prime minister, which she’d remorselessly pursued, to the point of having been too self-interested to even fight for her side in the referendum.

 Britain’s reality right now: we have no functioning government
Jonathan Freedland
Jonathan Freedland
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On the other side of the house, meanwhile, sat Jeremy Corbyn, who famously wanted to trigger article 50 before anyone else, on the very day after the referendum. Yet on Tuesday he was wittering at the prime minister: “The clock has been run out on her!” Corbyn now seems to be back to pushing his phantom Brexit deal, as opposed to the second referendum he briefly suggested was Labour policy. I know rebelling against the leadership is Corbyn’s comfort zone, but it does make you look a historic tit when you are the leadership.

As for what happens next, one Tory MP judged: “f..k knows”. Welcome to f..kknowsville. Population: us. In Westminster, an MP leaving the ERG meeting had called the mood “realistic” before adding: “but the question is, what is reality?” No. The question is, what is this complete bollocks? Morpheus, but if he was the member for Wycombe? In the north, Nigel Farage’s Leave Means Leave army girds itself to march south from Sunderland to London. And in Brussels, one EU diplomat warned ominously that “behind the scenes people are increasingly saying it is better to call it quits”, which is diplomatic speak for “so completely done with the UK’s shit”.

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We might as well play out with former Brexit secretary David Davis, whose appearance before the eventual inquiry will, I fantasise, be lengthy and sensationally uncomfortable. “If we walk away,” David breezed breezily on Tuesday, shortly before U-turning and voting for a deal he had spent months pissing all over, “What can they do? They cannot invade you, can they?” More’s the pity. If only there was an option for “invasion by competent people”. They don’t have to be FROM the continent, but they do have to BE continent.

• Marina Hyde is a Guardian columnist
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1504 on: March 13, 2019, 07:23:18 PM »
NO NO DEAL. Albeit by a majority of 4.  Anyone want to buy a cellarful of baked beans?
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1505 on: March 13, 2019, 07:47:58 PM »
NO NO DEAL. Albeit by a majority of 4.  Anyone want to buy a cellarful of baked beans?

Just a minute.........
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Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1506 on: March 13, 2019, 08:04:50 PM »
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1507 on: March 13, 2019, 09:20:33 PM »
The default position is still to leave without a deal on 29th March. The vote tonight has no power to change that, it's the law. They will now vote on an extension to Article 50. If they vote in favour of an extension and the EU refuses to grant it we will leave on 29th March without a deal.

France in particular has said it won't agree to an extension unless the UK is clear about what it actually wants rather than what it doesn't want. All it takes is one country to oppose an extension for it to be refused.

It seems to me that Parliament needs to get together and decide what it actually does want instead of  May's deal. They need to send May back with some clear goals. In the absence of that it's difficult not to conclude that their goal is to thwart Brexit altogether and betray the British people and deny them what they voted for. .

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Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1508 on: March 13, 2019, 09:31:23 PM »
The default position is still to leave without a deal on 29th March. The vote tonight has no power to change that, it's the law. They will now vote on an extension to Article 50. If they vote in favour of an extension and the EU refuses to grant it we will leave on 29th March without a deal.

France in particular has said it won't agree to an extension unless the UK is clear about what it actually wants rather than what it doesn't want. All it takes is one country to oppose an extension for it to be refused.

It seems to me that Parliament needs to get together and decide what it actually does want instead of  May's deal. They need to send May back with some clear goals. In the absence of that it's difficult not to conclude that their goal is to thwart Brexit altogether and betray the British people and deny them what they voted for. .
We won’t leave without a deal.  The EU don’t want that and neither does parliament. 
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1509 on: March 13, 2019, 10:05:26 PM »
We won’t leave without a deal.  The EU don’t want that and neither does parliament.

Then Parliament needs to start being positive instead of negative and decide what deal they want. The EU has negotiated a deal but it has also prepared for a no deal.
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Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1510 on: March 13, 2019, 10:08:51 PM »
Then Parliament needs to start being positive instead of negative and decide what deal they want. The EU has negotiated a deal but it has also prepared for a no deal.
I agree.  They will end up going for May’s deal or a version of it when the EU offer another slight concession.  IMO.  The main barrier is Labour.  I don’t believe Corbyn and his cronies would ever be able to support May’s deal whatever it looked like, on principle.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2019, 10:12:08 PM by Vertigo Swirl »
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1511 on: March 14, 2019, 08:11:35 AM »
I agree.  They will end up going for May’s deal or a version of it when the EU offer another slight concession.  IMO.  The main barrier is Labour.  I don’t believe Corbyn and his cronies would ever be able to support May’s deal whatever it looked like, on principle.

The time for all this was when they were asked to vote for the Withdrawal Act Why leave it until not the 11th hour, but the 11th hour and 55 minutes?.
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Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1512 on: March 14, 2019, 08:20:58 AM »
The time for all this was when they were asked to vote for the Withdrawal Act Why leave it until not the 11th hour, but the 11th hour and 55 minutes?.
A looming deadline always helps to sharpen the mind.
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Carana

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1513 on: March 14, 2019, 08:46:12 AM »
The default position is still to leave without a deal on 29th March. The vote tonight has no power to change that, it's the law. They will now vote on an extension to Article 50. If they vote in favour of an extension and the EU refuses to grant it we will leave on 29th March without a deal.

France in particular has said it won't agree to an extension unless the UK is clear about what it actually wants rather than what it doesn't want. All it takes is one country to oppose an extension for it to be refused.

It seems to me that Parliament needs to get together and decide what it actually does want instead of  May's deal. They need to send May back with some clear goals. In the absence of that it's difficult not to conclude that their goal is to thwart Brexit altogether and betray the British people and deny them what they voted for. .

LOL That's what the EU has been saying for quite some time...

An extension, ok, but what's the purpose, the plan and the time schedule? If it's just to carry on playing silly b*ggers in Parliament, the EU has other matters to tend to. As does the UK.

Frankly, it's a bit like toddlers who come up with any excuse possible to avoid going to bed...

Offline Carana

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1514 on: March 14, 2019, 08:52:02 AM »
The default position is still to leave without a deal on 29th March. The vote tonight has no power to change that, it's the law. They will now vote on an extension to Article 50. If they vote in favour of an extension and the EU refuses to grant it we will leave on 29th March without a deal.

France in particular has said it won't agree to an extension unless the UK is clear about what it actually wants rather than what it doesn't want. All it takes is one country to oppose an extension for it to be refused.

It seems to me that Parliament needs to get together and decide what it actually does want instead of  May's deal. They need to send May back with some clear goals. In the absence of that it's difficult not to conclude that their goal is to thwart Brexit altogether and betray the British people and deny them what they voted for. .

Seriously?

https://twitter.com/MichelBarnier/status/1104052367274713088