More humility and less arrogance would have stood them in good stead from the outset. The classic being the English social worker who went to assist immediately but was told in no uncertain terms to go away.Went to assist before this became the unfathomable circus that we know today. What was she thinking, with her experience, qualifications and knowledge; of her own volition, offering her assistance like that?
More humility and less arrogance would have stood them in good stead from the outset. The classic being the English social worker who went to assist immediately but was told in no uncertain terms to go away.
More humility and less arrogance would have stood them in good stead from the outset. The classic being the English social worker who went to assist immediately but was told in no uncertain terms to go away.
Went to assist before this became the unfathomable circus that we know today. What was she thinking, with her experience, qualifications and knowledge; of her own volition, offering her assistance like that?
Why would any private individual assume the right to approach individuals in the circumstances she did as they awaited being taken to be formally interviewed by the Policia Judiciaria? and why would anyone think it was appropriate for her to do so?
And with an anonymous letter to help The Police. How very public spirited.
She was correct to raise her suspicions.
More humility and less arrogance would have stood them in good stead from the outset. The classic being the English social worker who went to assist immediately but was told in no uncertain terms to go away.
She was English and was best placed to give support but that group didn't want any lowly social worker being able to see what they had been up to imo.
She was correct to raise her suspicions.
She was... And the McCann's were right to tell her to clear off... She had no right to interfere... IMO she had no skills to offer
She was not in any way qualified to help... She deserved to told to leave imo
How on earth can you say that Davel? She was a qualified child protection social worker. What were her qualifications, what is her role, how does she work with parents in extremis.
You have no idea of anything about her so you are not qualified to say that IMO.
It is so often what you don't say that matters.
Could you explain that please Eleanor?
I was referring to myself.
OK thank you Eleanor.
Then she should have had the decency and professionalism to put her name to those suspicions.
Perhaps this lack of decency and professionalism was apparent to the McCanns and friends who had every right to decline her interference. IMO
Or perhaps there was another reason, Erngath, who knows?
Indeed, but many seem to criticise every decision made without knowing any details of what actually occurred.
Also every action and decision of the parents is seen through a fog of distrust and bias IMO of course.
Every action made by the PJ and Portuguese police is seen through a fog of distrust and bias IMO of course.
Some question the McCanns by what they say and do, not just because of bias IMO.
Every action made by the PJ and Portuguese police is seen through a fog of distrust and bias IMO of course.
Some question the McCanns by what they say and do, not just because of bias IMO.
Or perhaps there was another reason, Erngath, who knows?
Could you expand on what you believe the other reason could be for the McCanns and friends to find her interference not to their liking?
I believe the McCanns based on the evidence... I distrust the PJ... Based on the evidence... Amaral guilty of perjury.. Almeida guilty of torture
No I can't Erngath, sorry. Perhaps Davel can as he finds it understandable that the shooed Yvonne Martin away.
Does Portugal have Social Workers? And are they allowed to interfere in Investigations?
In what way was she interfering ?
In what way was she interfering ?
She was asking quite personal questions without having the authority to do so.
I can understand why they did find her to be intrusive.
Maybe they did, but how would it interfere with the investigation?
Maybe they did, but how would it interfere with the investigation?
The question remains unanswered but I do understand why an honest answer would be difficult for you.Erngarth answered your question with a NO, which part of NO is not giving a straight answer?
She was English and was best placed to give support but that group didn't want any lowly social worker being able to see what they had been up to imo.
There is no Richard and Judy book on my coffee table!
Even though it wasn't a best seller, parts of his book have become set in stone for some.
His thoughts and "raised possibilitie" have become part and parcel of the armoury of those who attack the McCanns on online forums, newspaper comments and on line polls
His "possibilities" are regurgitated at every opportunity.
Then these "possibilities" are spread by word of mouth to many who have not read his book.
He didn't have to have a best seller for his "possibilities" to become fact in the mind of some.
I believe his "raised possibilities " have had an impact on the belief that Madeleine's parents were involved in her disappearance.
Wow and he did all this without a professional PR machine behind him, either.
None of The Sceptics seem to be really interested in this. But then this sort of thing does appear to go on quite a lot in Portugal. So perhaps it's normal.
More humility and less arrogance would have stood them in good stead from the outset. The classic being the English social worker who went to assist immediately but was told in no uncertain terms to go away.
Perhaps this lack of decency and professionalism was apparent to the McCanns and friends who had every right to decline her interference. IMO
Then she should have had the decency and professionalism to put her name to those suspicions.She did , as in the end Yvonne admitted the letter was from her.
She was asking quite personal questions of witnesses without having the authority to do so.Yvonne presented her credentials to the PJ and they let her proceed. IMO that means she had authority.
I can understand why they did find her to be intrusive.
Yvonne presented her credentials to the PJ and they let her proceed. IMO that means she had authority.
Anyone believe that? I don't.
Remember the 'Dear Julia' Videos ?
AIMO
Yvonne presented her credentials to the PJ and they let her proceed. IMO that means she had authority.
I don't think she did Robbity.
She arrived at the scene on the coat tail of the GNR which in my opinion would suggest to the casual observer that she was part of the investigation ...
Snip
At first, she could not locate the exact site where the family was staying on holiday. Upon seeing a police patrol car which passed close by her, she asked the police if they could show her the right location. She was accompanied by the patrol car to the apartment from where the child had disappeared and where the parents were staying.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/YVONNE-WARREN-MARTIN.htm
She approached the witnesses and began asking inappropriate questions. In my opinion she embarked on her enterprise based solely on her own authorisation. I have difficulty with the inability of some to recognise just how out of order and unprofessional her behaviour was ... the PJ had neither spoken with her or authorised her to do anything.
From your quote Brietta, It says she was accompanied by the patrol car to the apartment, therefore the police knew she wanted to speak to the McCanns and IMO must have agreed that she could do so.And this "- She identified herself and presented her credentials and immediately began talking to the mother of the missing child as she was visibly upset with the situation." I would say it would be the PJ that took her to the apartment rather than the GNR.
And this "- She identified herself and presented her credentials and immediately began talking to the mother of the missing child as she was visibly upset with the situation." I would say it would be the PJ that took her to the apartment rather than the GNR.
OK it is not clear what steps actually happened but she did have her credentials with her.
Her credentials were not valid outside England & Wales, something she should have been fully aware of.
She went to HELP the McCanns, she took her credentials to show that she was a professional social worker.
Would you rather that someone wouldn't offer to help the bereft McCanns in their time of need? Clearly you would IMO.
And this "- She identified herself and presented her credentials and immediately began talking to the mother of the missing child as she was visibly upset with the situation." I would say it would be the PJ that took her to the apartment rather than the GNR.
OK it is not clear what steps actually happened but she did have her credentials with her.
She identified herself to Kate and Gerry and showed them her credentials ... there is no indication anywhere in the files that she had approached anyone in authority or the Policia Judiciaria and asked if they wished her to instigate interrogating the witnesses.
Why do you believe Yvonne Martin was there to interrogate the witnesses. She would need to ask some questions to get the full picture, before helping them in their time of need. What do you expect her to do otherwise?
They didn't want or, need, her help... IMO She, had, no skills, to offer... Is, that so hard, to understandYes.
Yes.
She wouldn't know that they didn't need or want help until she asked.
As for skills, I mean come on dAvEl, she's a social worker; by definition, her skill set demands training and experience in dealing with children in stressful situations - i.e. the twins may have needed assistance.
Oh, I see. She was offering to babysit. That was kind.No wonder she got short shrift then; they don't do babysitters.
Yes.
She wouldn't know that they didn't need or want help until she asked.
As for skills, I mean come on dAvEl, she's a social worker; by definition, her skill set demands training and experience in dealing with children in stressful situations - i.e. the twins may have needed assistance.
That's your opinion....... The McCann's didn't want her help... Are they entitled to make that decision without posters wanting to criticise everything they do... It was up to them... None of your or anyone elses businessBut how was she to know that they didn't want her help until she asked?
No wonder she got short shrift then; they don't do babysitters.
But how was she to know that they didn't want her help until she asked?
And if it's none of any of our business, why are we all talking about it?
Besides, they didn't want a British social worker, but they needed a British PR Guru in short order.
They didn't want or, need, her help... IMO She, had, no skills, to offer... Is, that so hard, to understand
That's your opinion....... The McCann's didn't want her help... Are they entitled to make that decision without posters wanting to criticise everything they do... It was up to them... None of your or anyone elses business
Interesting that they were happy of the help of diplomats with no skills in investigating crimes or child protection issues. IMO
The McCanns have put their experiences, actions and opinions in the public arena. I agree with the Portuguese judges; by doing that they opened the way for others to form opinions and to comment.
I think it's odd that people such as you want to examine every minute detail of their livesI know, it's not as if Kate disclosed any of this in a candid, red top serialised, best-selling book.
I think it's odd that people such as you want to examine every minute detail of their lives
She went to HELP the McCanns, she took her credentials to show that she was a professional social worker.
Would you rather that someone wouldn't offer to help the bereft McCanns in their time of need? Clearly you would IMO.
\I believe it was a journalist who suggested they be careful who they spoke to, Kate was in a very distressed state.
The only journalist present to my knowledge was Len Port. His offers of help were also ignored. it seems;Sounds like this incompetent, untrained, meddling social worker had some pretty decent advice to dispense. Shame she was dismissed really.
The only other people in sight were two women in conversation close to a corner ground floor apartment, 5A. As I approached, I noticed that one of them was clearly distressed, so much so I guessed she must be the missing girl's mother, Kate McCann. Later I learned that the other woman was a senior social worker on holiday from England. I overheard Mrs McCann tell her the police were "doing nothing" to find her daughter. She complained that they had not even questioned people staying in the same block of apartments. I understood the social worker to suggest that a description of the missing child should be circulated more widely. That prompted me to introduce myself as an Algarve-based reporter and say that I could use contacts to arrange alerts to be broadcast on an Algarve bilingual radio station. It had flashed through my mind that such alerts had been broadcast when Rachel Charles was reported missing in the Algarve 17 years earlier. The social worker then mentioned the British Consulate. I said I could help there too as I knew the staff at the Consulate and had just spoken to one of them on the phone. Perhaps my offer sounded disingenuous coming from a total stranger and a reporter to boot. Anyway, it was ignored.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/86june14/LenPort_June2014.htm
The only journalist present to my knowledge was Len Port. His offers of help were also ignored. it seems;
The only other people in sight were two women in conversation close to a corner ground floor apartment, 5A. As I approached, I noticed that one of them was clearly distressed, so much so I guessed she must be the missing girl's mother, Kate McCann. Later I learned that the other woman was a senior social worker on holiday from England. I overheard Mrs McCann tell her the police were "doing nothing" to find her daughter. She complained that they had not even questioned people staying in the same block of apartments. I understood the social worker to suggest that a description of the missing child should be circulated more widely. That prompted me to introduce myself as an Algarve-based reporter and say that I could use contacts to arrange alerts to be broadcast on an Algarve bilingual radio station. It had flashed through my mind that such alerts had been broadcast when Rachel Charles was reported missing in the Algarve 17 years earlier. The social worker then mentioned the British Consulate. I said I could help there too as I knew the staff at the Consulate and had just spoken to one of them on the phone. Perhaps my offer sounded disingenuous coming from a total stranger and a reporter to boot. Anyway, it was ignored.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/86june14/LenPort_June2014.htm
Do I? I have no knowledge of or interest in their lives at all. My interest in them begins and ends with anything relating to their daughter's disappearance.
Why do you believe Yvonne Martin was there to interrogate the witnesses. She would need to ask some questions to get the full picture, before helping them in their time of need. What do you expect her to do otherwise?Questions like ... how can I help with the children in the party? might justify her intervention and give an indication of what and whom she should have been prioritising.
Yes.
She wouldn't know that they didn't need or want help until she asked.
As for skills, I mean come on dAvEl, she's a social worker; by definition, her skill set demands training and experience in dealing with children in stressful situations - i.e. the twins may have needed assistance.
But how was she to know that they didn't want her help until she asked?
And if it's none of any of our business, why are we all talking about it?
Besides, they didn't want a British social worker, but they needed a British PR Guru in short order.
It probably was Len Port. I was thinking of this from Yvonne Martins statement -
Meanwhile a fourth individual came towards the group and identified himself as a journalist. The witness alerted the couple to the type of statements they should give and that it would be better for them to keep silent.
After he said this, they went off discuss what he had said and then decided not to say anymore to Yvonee Martin. So it was the journalists advice that caused them not to speak to Yvonne Martin.
Good Find, Lace.
It probably was Len Port. I was thinking of this from Yvonne Martins statement -
Meanwhile a fourth individual came towards the group and identified himself as a journalist. The witness alerted the couple to the type of statements they should give and that it would be better for them to keep silent.
After he said this, they went off discuss what he had said and then decided not to say anymore to Yvonee Martin. So it was the journalists advice that caused them not to speak to Yvonne Martin.
No, it was the witness (Mrs Martin) who told the couple to keep silent when Len Port arrived. She advised them not to speak to him.
No, it was the witness (Mrs Martin) who told the couple to keep silent when Len Port arrived. She advised them not to speak to him.
Can we have a Cite for that, please.
To whom and when did Len Port make his suggestion?
I bolded the cite in Lace's post, to which I was replying.The 'witness' is the person giving the statement; Mrs Martin;
The witness alerted the couple to the type of statements they should give and that it would be better for them to keep silent.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/YVONNE-WARREN-MARTIN.htm
Puzzling (to me anyway) my Kate should specify 13 hours rather than just saying 'last night'
I would imagine that each hour passing since Madeleine had disappeared was firmly established in her mind.
As each hour passed her worry and fear would increase and each passing hour would be well noted IMO.
But apparently she'd got it wrong - out by an hour 8)-)))
Puzzling (to me anyway) why Kate should specify 13 hours rather than just saying 'last night'We only have some other woman's word for it, maybe she misheard or misremembered?
Was that deliberately wrong or confused wrong?
Just curious to know what the emoticon signifies?
I'm smiling at your impression that every hour was pressing on her.
So it was Yvonne Martin who told the McCann's to be careful what they said.
I find Yvonne Martins statements to be quite odd, at first she's chatting away to the McCann's then as soon as they decide not to speak to her anymore, her statement seems to get quite different, she says that she recognises David Payne, describes him as having a scar on his face [does he?] and that the McCann's were aggressive before she showed her credentials, she doesn't say that at first.
13 hours since she went missing - it was 10am - truth in that statement and it connects to Smithman again LOL. Smithman corroborates everything!If Kate thought she had been taken just after 9:00 PM the maths is correct.
"At this point, Kate told her that her daughter had disappeared 13 hours ago. It was about 10 in the morning."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/YVONNE-WARREN-MARTIN.htm
We only have some other woman's word for it, maybe she misheard or misremembered?
Again ? You have to wonder how this woman ever became a social worker. With her hearing problems and memory loss bordering on dementia it’s a wonder she ever got anyone to employ her.I haven’t referenced hearing problems or memory loss or dementia, just common or garden misremebering or mis-hearing, such as you might experience on a daily basis.
I haven’t referenced hearing problems or memory loss or dementia, just common or garden misremebering or mis-hearing, such as you might experience on a daily basis.
If Kate thought she had been taken just after 9:00 PM the maths is correct.
Misheard, how ? She was feet away. Misremembered in what way ? She is a professional trained to assimilate information quickly IN MY OPINION.IYO what action could YM have taken following receipt of any information she gleaned from the McCanns?
IYO what action could YM have taken following receipt of any information she gleaned from the McCanns?
I’m not entirely clear why supporters are so against a rather kind lady, trained in helping families deal with the most awful traumas, forgoing her own holiday to offer help in whatever way she could. Further Kate obviously felt comfortable enough at first to talk to her and give her some pertinent information.
I asked you what action she thought she could have taken, bearing in mind she must have known she had no jurisdiction & didn't even speak Portuguese.
Misheard, how ? She was feet away. Misremembered in what way ? She is a professional trained to assimilate information quickly.You have neve misheard what someone has said, who was talking to you? You have never misremembered what they said? Is Yvonne human or android?
The window was only reported to be open on her check at 10. The window was closed on prior checks at 9 and 9:30 so why would she be thinking the abduction was at 9pm?Kate linked it to Jane's sighting. Around 9:15.
I would think that Yvonne Martin went into social work because she wanted to help children and families. She went to Praia Da Luz to help the McCanns.
I have an immense respect for social workers as I believe their profession is a very hard and stressful one. They are dedicated professionals who's aim is to protect children and help families cope with very difficult circumstances.
Read this please http://www.socialworker.com/feature-articles/practice/a-social-worker-s-thoughts-on-child-protection-social-work/
IMO Yvonne Martin didn't need jurisdiction nor did she need to speak Portuguese to help the McCanns, even in a small way to cope with what had happened. She didn't get the chance to do that, that is not her fault. If you read the link you will see what I mean.
When Yvonne Martin hot footed down the coast to give her unsolicited assistance how did she know that assistance was required?
Len Port described the hive of activity that morning with the Portuguese police and their dogs searching for what I believe was still considered to be a child who woke and had wandered from her bed.
Without benefit of hindsight why did Yvonne Martin decide decide to fly solo and conduct what amounted to a criminal investigation before the police had decided what procedures to follow?
If an English detective inspector had been holidaying a couple of miles down the coast what action do you think would have been dictated by dint of his/her desire to help using professional training?
Do you consider it would it have been appropriate for that person to approach witnesses waving a warrant card and attempt to interview them privately?
Of course not but as a social worker she would hope she could give some comfort to the parents in their distress. She spoke English so she would surely be preferable to a Portuguese person trying to assist them.
It does seem odd to me that the McCanns appeared to pick and choose who they wanted to help them in their time of need.
If a Portuguese child disappeared in the UK would you think it appropriate for a non English speaking Portuguese social worker who was on holiday here and was totally unknown to the Portuguese couple to rush in and start asking questions of an already distressed couple.
I don't believe the investigating police would allow such a situation. I M O
Of course not but as a social worker she would hope she could give some comfort to the parents in their distress. She spoke English so she would surely be preferable to a Portuguese person trying to assist them.
It does seem odd to me that the McCanns appeared to pick and choose who they wanted to help them in their time of need.
She went there in an official capacity and as far, as, I have seen a, social worker would be critical not supportive Re the childcare
Do you have any evidence of Yvonne Martin being critical, or are you talking about social workers in general Davel?
I have already provided links which show how social works (in child protection) are supportive of families in distress.
Surely that is beside the point as she was pointed to the McCanns by the Portuguese Police. As regards whether that would happen I have no idea.
So it is a moot point IMO.
Supportive of families in distress... Not parents who have in some peoples eyes neglected children.. I've seen two opinions from social workers... One on this forum that others must have seen... And another personally... Both highly critical
I don't believe for one minute that it would be allowed and perhaps it was an error of judgement by the police in allowing a total stranger to approach hem
What on earth could she do to progress the investigation?
Can you find the link to the critical social worker on her if possible Davel, although that is like saying all parents are negligent by looking at only a couple of them. I obviously don't need a link to your personal circumstances regarding social workers although I can see why it may make you biased against them.
Was she there to progress the investigation or simply to help a couple in deep distress Erngath?
I have no idea of what her intentions were.
However when she became aware that they had the support of close friends, she should have withdrawn and left.
IMO.
Can you find the link to the critical social worker on her if possible Davel, although that is like saying all parents are negligent by looking at only a couple of them. I obviously don't need a link to your personal circumstances regarding social workers
I agree. They obviously didn't need her help.I imagine her kecks rolled up when Kate realised she was a social worker. Her reaction was understandable, I suppose, given the circumstances.
I imagine her kecks rolled up when Kate realised she was a social worker. Her reaction was understandable, I suppose, given the circumstances.Precisely
I asked a social worker acquaintance, what she thought if the McCanns.... Her view was the twins should have been removed as soon as the plane landed fron portugal
Surely not?
I was quite surprised at the, strength of her reaction
I am too.
I always believed that the aim was to keep families together, except if there was extreme neglct or physical or sexual abuse.
Most social workers whom I have dealt with have that aim.
I've seen a couple of cases that have been quite extreme.It absolutely does, I have first hand experience that I won't divulge.
Must depend on the social worker
at about 07H00 she turned on the television and watched an English news channel (BBC or SKY NEWS) where she saw an appeal to British citizens on holiday in the Algarve to offer all possible support to a British couple who were on holiday in Praia da Luz and whose daughter, a child, had disappeared on May 03, 2007.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/YVONNE-WARREN-MARTIN.htm
I am too.
I always believed that the aim was to keep families together, except if there was extreme neglct or physical or sexual abuse.
Most social workers whom I have dealt with have that aim.
The welfare of the child is paramount ... no social work team worth it's salt would take any precipitate action to jeopardise that by precipitate non-emergency action and careful multi discipline study.
I agree that the majority of social workers do an excellent job in very difficult circumstances and I know of no cases where children are removed from loving homes where they are properly cared for to be put into the care system.
Such would be a scandal of gargantuan proportions.
Those scandals happen
I know if two personally... Google Scottish satanic abuse case... Social workers
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-23958348
If an English detective inspector had been holidaying a couple of miles down the coast what action do you think would have been dictated by dint of his/her desire to help using professional training?That is an interesting question. I've been listening to murder investigations on YouTube, hundreds of them in fact, and I'd say provided that detective approached the PJ first, it would be up to the PJ to decide how to handle it.
Do you consider it would it have been appropriate for that person to approach witnesses waving a warrant card and attempt to interview them privately?
I agree. They obviously didn't need her help.Had the case been solved I might have agreed with you.
I would think that Yvonne Martin went into social work because she wanted to help children and families. She went to Praia Da Luz to help the McCanns.
I have an immense respect for social workers as I believe their profession is a very hard and stressful one. They are dedicated professionals who's aim is to protect children and help families cope with very difficult circumstances.
Read this please http://www.socialworker.com/feature-articles/practice/a-social-worker-s-thoughts-on-child-protection-social-work/
IMO Yvonne Martin didn't need jurisdiction nor did she need to speak Portuguese to help the McCanns, even in a small way to cope with what had happened. She didn't get the chance to do that, that is not her fault. If you read the link you will see what I mean.
I agree. The fact that the parents and Dr Payne went off whispering before he came back to tell her they didn't want her help would have immediately rung alarm bells with her. Social workers who are trained in child protection issues as Yvonne Martin was, can spot anything peculiar or out of the ordinary a mile away. They look for inappropriate responses such as declining help in such situations.
IMO she should have spoken to the PJ immediately about her concerns and left it at that. That would have been the professional way of dealing with the situation instead of writing an anonymous letter.
Had the case been solved I might have agreed with you.
Why do you think " alarm bells were ringing" ?
What do you believe was" peculiar" or " out of the ordinary" in the rejection of an absolute stranger suddenly appearing and asking quite personal questions?
I have no doubt that Yvonne's questions had hit a nerve and that is why they told her they weren't interested in her help.
And you believe her help would have solved the case?No one knows now.
So they were more worried by some unknown social worker asking questions rather than any following questions which would be asked by an investigating police force.With her experience who knows what could have eventuated. I'm learning how detectives and I suppose investigators ask questions, sometimes direct, hoping for a denial or an admission.
Why would they?
She had no power of investigation.
Do you believe that her questions would have led to any further truth into what happened to Madeleine?
No one knows now.
The welfare of the child is paramount ... no social work team worth it's salt would take any precipitate action to jeopardise that by precipitate non-emergency action and careful multi discipline study.
I agree that the majority of social workers do an excellent job in very difficult circumstances and I know of no cases where children are removed from loving homes where they are properly cared for to be put into the care system.
Such would be a scandal of gargantuan proportions.
With her experience who knows what could have eventuated. I'm learning how detectives and I suppose investigators ask questions, sometimes direct, hoping for a denial or an admission.
Other times they approach in a less direct method to build trust. The PJ can only ask tough questions if the person was made an arguido AFAIK.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10418.msg503043#msg503043
Do you really believe her intervention would have helped fnd Madeleine?
Or helped find out what happened?
Or helped find out who as responsible for her disappearance?.
Really?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10418.msg503043#msg503043
Even if the McCanns could have been eliminated as suspects. In my research the police don't like it when their prime suspect is eliminated from the inquiry. I suppose it is a disappointment. Their hopes would be up. They don't want to show their feelings too soon as they are still gathering evidence.
But if a suspect is eliminated the focus is directed on to someone else, that is the important bit.
With the McCanns dining just 100 odd meters from the apartment they could never get a watertight alibi.
Jez has been reported as giving Gerry an alibi but only for as long as they spoke and what time was that? In the end Jez was not willing to define the time he met with Gerry, so IMO the alibi provided by Jez loses it value IMO.
And her experience in investigating the disappearance of a missing child in a foreign country where she did not speak that language was ??I think you are guessing if you think Yvonne didn't speak Portuguese. I believe she spoke Portuguese fluently as in both of her statements there is nothing said about the presence of a translator.
A brief readng ojf your response does not seem to indicate any answer to my post.You were asking difficult questions:
However it's late and I will reread your response in the morning.
I think you are guessing if you think Yvonne didn't speak Portuguese. I believe she spoke Portuguese fluently as in both of her statements there is nothing said about the presence of a translator.YVONE WARREN MARTIN
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/YVONNE-WARREN-MARTIN.htm
I notice some posters refer to Yvonne as having some sort of investigative interest. IMO this is wrong as she was a social worker with experience in child protection.
Was her approach out of concern for the other children?
Try reading some of Christopher Bookers articles on this topic. There are plenty remaining on the net.
Just a few samplers:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/04/1-million-bill-for-social-workers-getting-it-wrong/
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/christopherbooker/10625665/French-judges-foil-social-workers-who-were-out-to-take-mothers-baby.html
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/04/1-million-bill-for-social-workers-getting-it-wrong/
I notice some posters refer to Yvonne as having some sort of investigative interest. IMO this is wrong as she was a social worker with experience in child protection.
Was her approach out of concern for the other children?
I notice some posters refer to Yvonne as having some sort of investigative interest. IMO this is wrong as she was a social worker with experience in child protection.Didn't she ask questions about the parentage of Madeleine? Surely that is investigating whether another parent could be involved with an abduction e.g a biological father involvement.
Was her approach out of concern for the other children?
Didn't she ask questions about the parentage of Madeleine? Surely that is investigating whether another parent could be involved with an abduction e.g a biological father involvement.
I'll have a look at the statement again. Does she even know if there are other children?
YVONE WARREN MARTINThanks for clearing that up.
Profession: Social Services and Child Protection
The witness is accompanied by a PJ interpreter, Carlos Moura, as she does not speak Portuguese
Didn't she ask questions about the parentage of Madeleine? Surely that is investigating whether another parent could be involved with an abduction e.g a biological father involvement.
I'll have a look at the statement again. Does she even know if there are other children?
"Taking advantage of the information that she had heard on the news, she began questioning the couple about how often they had checked on the children, obtaining the reply that people would go to see them every hour.actually I already know that and Ive never worked in child protection
As is normal and routine in her service, she asked whether Gerry was the biological father of the missing child, to which he replied yes.
She clarifies that she asked this question because during the course of her 25 years of service working with children at risk, it is very normal that when a couple has child and where the father or the mother is not a biological parent, the biological parent may have a tendency to come and "get" his child."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/YVONNE-WARREN-MARTIN.htm
actually I already know that and Ive never worked in child protectionWell did you know this:
Well did you know this:
"She adds that, after having spoken to the McCann couple, she spoke to the resort manager, and after identifying herself, asked him whether there had been a break-in in the apartment where the child was, to which he replied no but that the door was open as were the window blinds, which, according to Kate, should have been closed but were found open."
That question in itself seems very investigative. She appears to be assessing where the threat came from. What does she get told?
Unfortunately it isn't defined as to which door was found open.
yes I did know this...she is a social worker not a detective..and thats why kate was quite right to tell her to clear offSo she seems relatively happy to answer mundane questions, right up to the point where the awkward questions are being asked.
I'm surprised the group took little notice of Len Port. The first journalist on the scene with local knowledge and contacts. Wouldn't he have been far more use than the BBC and Sky?
According to Mrs Martin David Payne intervened when he heard Kate telling her that a couple had abducted her daughter. None of the evidence points to a couple being involved so I wonder if Kate was being encouraged to think it was a caring couple rather than a predatory paedophile.
If checking was every hour as Mrs Martin was informed, Gerry's check would have been nearer to 9.30 pm rather than 9.05 pm.
Rachael 4th May; Gerry went at 9.15 pm.
LOL ... so are you indicating ... based on precedence ... that Yvonne Martin's interference could have mirrored incompetence and bad practice of the worst sort?
Yes. She asked if Gerry was Madeleine's father. Blimmin cheek.
Pamela Fenn didn't know it was Gerry's daughter that was missing. The McCanns are very strange folk!
"She found it strange that Gerry when said that a girl had been abducted, he did not mention that it was his daughter and that he did not mention any other scenarios." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm
"The McCanns are very strange folk"It might be Yvonne Martin. She would have been wondering why they didn't want her help.
Whose quote is that?
It might be Yvonne Martin. She would have been wondering why they didn't want her help.
It might be Yvonne Martin. She would have been wondering why they didn't want her help.
I am still wondering why they didn't want her help, Rob.
I am still wondering what she could have done to help?
Did she speak Portuguese?
Did that matter, she spoke English and that was all that was necessary for her to help IMO.
Did that matter, she spoke English and that was all that was necessary for her to help IMO.
To whom did she say that?
Or is the statement that the McCanns are very strange folk an opinion of Pathfinder. If so then he/she should say so.
I don't have any problem with her going to PDL, but wonder why she felt the need to bother.
She was on holiday and a fair distance away, so why not leave matters to those on the spot?
What do you think Yvonne Martin could have done?
I have already given two cites on this thread showing how she could have helped.
I can remember you saying she could have provided comfort to them but they already had a group of friends, some close friends, who were quite capable of doing that?
What was the other cite?
I can remember you saying she could have provided comfort to them but they already had a group of friends, some close friends, who were quite capable of doing that?
What was the other cite?
That wasn't a cite that was my opinion.
Here were my cites (without posts attached)
http://www.socialworker.com/feature-articles/practice/a-social-worker-s-thoughts-on-child-protection-social-work/
https://thefrontline.org.uk/2017/02/10/the-role-of-a-child-protection-social-worker/
Also I agree with jassi's post. She would only know the bare bones of the facts and wanted to give her expertise and help a family in distress. It seems to me that many supporters are implying that she only went to Praia Da Luz to be at best nosey and at worse malicious. I disagree, she went to help a family in distress.
That wasn't a cite that was my opinion.
Here were my cites (without posts attached)
http://www.socialworker.com/feature-articles/practice/a-social-worker-s-thoughts-on-child-protection-social-work/
https://thefrontline.org.uk/2017/02/10/the-role-of-a-child-protection-social-worker/
Also I agree with jassi's post. She would only know the bare bones of the facts and wanted to give her expertise and help a family in distress. It seems to me that many supporters are implying that she only went to Praia Da Luz to be at best nosey and at worse malicious. I disagree, she went to help a family in distress.
Kate felt she was intrusive and didn't want to speak to her... I've had the opinion of two social workers and both were highly critical if the McCanns... Kste had, every right to tell her to go
That is your opinion. I find it interesting that you have spoken to two social workers who were highly critical of the McCanns. So it would appear that their actions were not well within the bounds of reasonable parenting, or some such flannel.
That is your opinion. I find it interesting that you have spoken to two social workers who were highly critical of the McCanns. So it would appear that their actions were not well within the bounds of reasonable parenting, or some such flannel.
Many sceptics imply that every word and deed of the parents of a missing little girl are questionable, suspicious and at worst malicious.
She may have had the best of intentions but surely on arrival and seeing the parents had the support of friends and coupled with the fact she spoke no Portuguese, then in my opinion she should have wished them well and left.
They seem good parents who made a wrong decision.
Many good parents have also made wrong decisions.
They put their own comfort and wellbeing above that of their children and it backfired on them. Little wonder that they have spent the best part of eleven years trying to regain some honour and credibility imo.
They put their own comfort and wellbeing above that of their children and it backfired on them. Little wonder that they have spent the best part of eleven years trying to regain some honour and credibility imo.
It backfired on Madeleine.
They are not the only parents who have at times made the wrongs decision for the wrong reasons.
You have no idea of how the McCanns are respected both within their community of friends, neighbours and colleagues.
Hopefully not everyone despises them as the Portuguese do.
It was catastrophic for Maddie. There can't be too many parents around who after losing a child in some mysterious disappearance are quite happy to let others do the searching for them while they carry on with building their own careers.
Is it little wonder that people believe the child dead when even her so-called loving parents behave in such a cold distancing manner?
I can remember you saying she could have provided comfort to them but they already had a group of friends, some close friends, who were quite capable of doing that?But Yvonne appears to be wary of one of those "friends".
What was the other cite?
But Yvonne appears to be wary of one of those "friends".
Yvonne sees Kate very distraught. She obviously believes Kate is the victim not the perpetrator. Which is odd for later GA makes out Kate is guilty.
Yvonne wanted to talk privately with Kate inside the apartment. Which apartment would that have been? Were the PJ going to let them back inside 5A at the time?
They had been provided with another apartment by that time - early hours of the morning, I think.They had their apartment 5A, they had stayed in the Paynes apartment in the morning, and they had their new apartment 4G (IIRC). It is not clear where Yvonne was intending to go.
They had their apartment 5A, they had stayed in the Paynes apartment in the morning, and they had their new apartment 4G (IIRC). It is not clear where Yvonne was intending to go.
The usual rant from you if you don't mind me saying so.
There's very little in your post which has any substance of credibility. I MO.
The use of "so called loving parents " is this implying Madeleine was never loved?
What career has Kate built?
Gerry was already pursuing a worthwhile career.
Do you believe he was wrong continuing with his career?
Rant??How is a father to support his wife and family without a job, pray tell?
I believe I speak the truth. GM has pursued his career instead of getting directly involved in a search for his daughter whom he still claims might be alive. He is quite happy to let others do the searching. What does that say about the doting father?
How is a father to support his wife and family without a job, pray tell?What can they do any way?
That wasn't a cite that was my opinion.
Here were my cites (without posts attached)
http://www.socialworker.com/feature-articles/practice/a-social-worker-s-thoughts-on-child-protection-social-work/
https://thefrontline.org.uk/2017/02/10/the-role-of-a-child-protection-social-worker/
Also I agree with jassi's post. She would only know the bare bones of the facts and wanted to give her expertise and help a family in distress. It seems to me that many supporters are implying that she only went to Praia Da Luz to be at best nosey and at worse malicious. I disagree, she went to help a family in distress.
So even at that stage ... prior to anyone having a clue what had become of Madeleine who might for all anyone knew be found that morning, bearing in mind that the GNR and whatever dogs they could muster probably were still hoping for that outcome ... the McCanns were being singled out for special treatment with their own personal social worker.
Rant??
I believe I speak the truth. GM has pursued his career instead of getting directly involved in a search for his daughter whom he still claims might be alive. He is quite happy to let others do the searching. What does that say about the doting father?
How is a father to support his wife and family without a job, pray tell?
I'm not suggesting he stops working but working to the exclusion of anything remotely associated with a personal search for his missing daughter is concerning. He's always found time for litigation though, isn't that strange?
Not as ridiculous as expecting others to do so - IMO
I'm not suggesting he stops working but working to the exclusion of anything remotely associated with a personal search for his missing daughter is concerning. He's always found time for litigation though, isn't that strange?
I'm not suggesting he stops working but working to the exclusion of anything remotely associated with a personal search for his missing daughter is concerning. He's always found time for litigation though, isn't that strange?No, not really. CN you explain what sort of searching you expect him to do exactly? Fly over to Portugal on his days off and walk the streets?
So even at that stage ... prior to anyone having a clue what had become of Madeleine who might for all anyone knew be found that morning, bearing in mind that the GNR and whatever dogs they could muster probably were still hoping for that outcome ... the McCanns were being singled out for special treatment with their own personal social worker.
I think you make an unpleasant inferrance there Brietta. Yvonne Martin was simply going to help a family in distress. Nothing more, nothing less IMO. Yourself and others have inferred she went there to interrogate them rather than simply help as much as she can. To do this she of course would need to ask some questions first so as to find out the facts.
She appears to be one of the people who would cross the street to help someone in distress. Some on here apparently seem to think being a good samaritan is never of any use, perhaps they would cross the street to avoid someone in need.
Just my opinion of course.
it is just your opinion ...and wrong,...imo...she obviously didnt seem to be a good samaritan in kates opinion..perhaps you should take your own advice and stop insulting those who support the mccanns
your post
Please will you stop insulting all people who don't believe everything that the mccanns have done, constantly.
that makes your post quite hypocritical
so if you had been there ...would you have been sympathetic towards the mccanns...been a good samaritan...because you seem far from sympathetic on this forum
Yes. She asked if Gerry was Madeleine's father. Blimmin cheek.
I think you make an unpleasant inferrance there Brietta. Yvonne Martin was simply going to help a family in distress. Nothing more, nothing less IMO. Yourself and others have inferred she went there to interrogate them rather than simply help as much as she can. To do this she of course would need to ask some questions first so as to find out the facts.What on earth does anyone other than Yvonne Martin Martin know what motivated her to make the journey to Luz on the morning of 4th May?
She appears to be one of the people who would cross the street to help someone in distress. Some on here apparently seem to think being a good samaritan is never of any use, perhaps they would cross the street to avoid someone in need.
Just my opinion of course.
Surely it was relevant to exclude an abduction by her biological father, if it wasn’t Gerry ?Gerry is Madeleine's father and that was a question which was none of the business of a holidaymaker but the business of the Policia Judiciaria.
Gerry is Madeleine's father and that was a question which was none of the business of a holidaymaker but the business of the Policia Judiciaria.
I assume Kate answered so she certainly wasn’t concerned that the question had been asked. In fact Kate seems not to have minded speaking to YM at all and it was only when DP intervened that she was shooed away.Snip
I think you make an unpleasant inferrance there Brietta. Yvonne Martin was simply going to help a family in distress. Nothing more, nothing less IMO. Yourself and others have inferred she went there to interrogate them rather than simply help as much as she can. To do this she of course would need to ask some questions first so as to find out the facts.
She appears to be one of the people who would cross the street to help someone in distress. Some on here apparently seem to think being a good samaritan is never of any use, perhaps they would cross the street to avoid someone in need.
Just my opinion of course.
Surely it was relevant to exclude an abduction by her biological father, if it wasn’t Gerry ?
so which is more effective....Gerry searching...or SY investigatingGerry searching does not preclude SY investigating. Or vice-versa.
I do wish that someone would come up with a sensible and logical way in which Gerry or Kate could search. It just isn't feasible, and apart from the first hours it never has been.
Rambling on about it without any suggestions is pointless and unkind.
Gerry searching does not preclude SY investigating. Or vice-versa.
So how do you suggest Gerry searches ...how would Gerry be received if he popped over to Luz and, started asking people questions
So how do you suggest Gerry searches ...how would Gerry be received if he popped over to Luz and, started asking people questionsTo be effective in Portugal he would need to learn Portuguese as well.
Snip
A middle-aged British woman lady suddenly materialized beside me and introduced herself.
She announced that she was, or had been, a social worker or child protection officer and insisted on showing me her professional papers, including, I think, her Criminal Records Bureau certificate.
She asked me to sit down on a low wall, plonked herself next to me and told me she wanted me to go through everything that had happened the previous night.
She was quite pushy and her manner, her very presence, were making me feel uncomfortable and adding to my distress.
David was standing nearby.
Concerned he took me aside and pointed out that we didn’t know who this woman was or what she was doing there. He reassured me that I wasn’t obliged to speak to her if I didn’t want to. And I didn’t want to.
Whoever she was, and whatever her credential were, it was an inappropriate intrusion.
And something about it, something about her, just didn’t feel right.
I was glad I extricated myself. This woman would pop up several times in the days and months to come and I still don’t really know who she is or what she was trying to achieve.Kate McCann
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10418.msg502017#msg502017
________________________________________________________
In her own words and unequivocally Kate wanted nothing to do with this stranger's intrusion into her trauma.
She had the right to decide to whom she wished to speak or not ... if someone makes you feel uncomfortable don't you think you have the right to walk away?
to suggest gerry takes part in a personal search is ridiculous imo....
so which is more effective....Gerry searching...or SY investigating
Snip
A middle-aged British woman lady suddenly materialized beside me and introduced herself.
She announced that she was, or had been, a social worker or child protection officer and insisted on showing me her professional papers, including, I think, her Criminal Records Bureau certificate.
She asked me to sit down on a low wall, plonked herself next to me and told me she wanted me to go through everything that had happened the previous night.
She was quite pushy and her manner, her very presence, were making me feel uncomfortable and adding to my distress.
David was standing nearby.
Concerned he took me aside and pointed out that we didn’t know who this woman was or what she was doing there. He reassured me that I wasn’t obliged to speak to her if I didn’t want to. And I didn’t want to.
Whoever she was, and whatever her credential were, it was an inappropriate intrusion.
And something about it, something about her, just didn’t feel right.
I was glad I extricated myself. This woman would pop up several times in the days and months to come and I still don’t really know who she is or what she was trying to achieve.Kate McCann
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10418.msg502017#msg502017
________________________________________________________
In her own words and unequivocally Kate wanted nothing to do with this stranger's intrusion into her trauma.
She had the right to decide to whom she wished to speak or not ... if someone makes you feel uncomfortable don't you think you have the right to walk away?
Sounds suspicious to me.
I do wish that someone would come up with a sensible and logical way in which Gerry or Kate could search. It just isn't feasible, and apart from the first hours it never has been.
Rambling on about it without any suggestions is pointless and unkind.
And to me to Angelo.. As I have said before the McCanns appeared to chose who they wanted to help them and not accept all help as it was offered. That raises a question in my mind.
So how do you suggest Gerry searches ...how would Gerry be received if he popped over to Luz and, started asking people questions
There's plenty of ways they can 'search' for missing Maddie which doesn't involve looking in gardens or disused wells etc... The point which appears to be lost on some is that they haven't effing bothered.
Snip
A middle-aged British woman lady suddenly materialized beside me and introduced herself.
She announced that she was, or had been, a social worker or child protection officer and insisted on showing me her professional papers, including, I think, her Criminal Records Bureau certificate.
She asked me to sit down on a low wall, plonked herself next to me and told me she wanted me to go through everything that had happened the previous night.
She was quite pushy and her manner, her very presence, were making me feel uncomfortable and adding to my distress.
David was standing nearby.
Concerned he took me aside and pointed out that we didn’t know who this woman was or what she was doing there. He reassured me that I wasn’t obliged to speak to her if I didn’t want to. And I didn’t want to.
Whoever she was, and whatever her credential were, it was an inappropriate intrusion.
And something about it, something about her, just didn’t feel right.
I was glad I extricated myself. This woman would pop up several times in the days and months to come and I still don’t really know who she is or what she was trying to achieve.Kate McCann
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10418.msg502017#msg502017
________________________________________________________
In her own words and unequivocally Kate wanted nothing to do with this stranger's intrusion into her trauma.
She had the right to decide to whom she wished to speak or not ... if someone makes you feel uncomfortable don't you think you have the right to walk away?
Of course they were correct not to continue any conversation with her.
It was a matter for the police, not her.
What on earth was she going to do to help?
She couldn't speak Portuguese,.
It's utter nonsense to suggest she could offer any help except to wish them well.
So how do you suggest Gerry searches ...how would Gerry be received if he popped over to Luz and, started asking people questions
Perhaps he would have been better searching on the night she went missing rather than staying in their new flat attempting to sleep. Who knows he may have found her.
I am still surprised that every supporter on here doesn't see why Yvonne Martin went to the McCanns aid.. It was her job to help families in need, not just remove children from families.
Perhaps he would have been better searching on the night she went missing rather than staying in their new flat attempting to sleep. Who knows he may have found her.
I am still surprised that every supporter on here doesn't see why Yvonne Martin went to the McCanns aid.. It was her job to help families in need, not just remove children from families.
Gerry slept for about two hours that night, if that. And it was pitch dark. There was no one else out there searching because they were waiting until daylight.
Actually it was in David Payne's flat I believe.
Gerry slept for about two hours that night, if that. And it was pitch dark. There was no one else out there searching because they were waiting until daylight.If you've ever searched for a missing child, you run one way and all the time you are imagining the child is going in a differing direction.
Actually it was in David Payne's flat I believe.
There were street lights so I wouldn't describe it as pitch dark Eleanor. Could you lie down and sleep if your child had been abducted or would you be running around the streets screaming her name. Nothing would have stopped me doing that.
Imagine every minute you do nothing, could be a minute she is suffering pain and fear and either dying or being taken further away from you.
It's a nonsensical idea.
And if it is correct that and Kate and he are despised by the Portuguese, he is unlikely to receive any assistance from anyone.
I've yet to read any sensible Idea from sceptics as to where he should begin this search.
Of course they were correct not to continue any conversation with her.
It was a matter for the police, not her.
What on earth was she going to do to help?
She couldn't speak Portuguese,.
It's utter nonsense to suggest she could offer any help except to wish them well.
Why do you insist in posting that rubbish Ern, I have already posted a sensible idea? A campaign based in Luz would have been easy to set up. A central point where publicity could be generated while seeking any information on the missing child. They had plenty of money to do it and I'm quite sure that many volunteers would have come forward too. Kate McCann had plenty time on her hands and could have spent much of it in Luz making people aware but they chose instead to try and destroy the policemen who originally investigated them. I cannot think of a more appropriate stance for someone who is wrongly accused than to face their accusers head on I stead of scuttling off to the UK.
What rubbish?
The notion that they are despised by the entire nation of Portugal was your rubbish of an idea.
And the rest of your post is your usual rubbishing of the parents of a missing little girl.
Are you seriously suggesting that the people of Luz were not totally aware that Madeleine was missing?
Are you seriously suggesting that anyone who had any information about Madeleine was not aware where to come forward to and impart this knowledge?
From day one her face was being televised globally.
And as for them choosing to destroy that man who in my opinion has attempted to destroy them and who in my opinion used the disappearance of a missing little girl for his own personal gain.
Words fail!
As usual you have skipped over the important points. How many people in Praia da Luz know about Smithman or that he is unidentified and nobody appears too bothered? I would have thought identifying Smithman and ruling him out if necessary was a basic starting point?
We know they tried to destroy Amaral, their paid honcho Correia boasted about it to reporters. 😁
Of course they were correct not to continue any conversation with her.
It was a matter for the police, not her.
What on earth was she going to do to help?
She couldn't speak Portuguese,.
It's utter nonsense to suggest she could offer any help except to wish them well.
As usual you have skipped over the important points. How many people in Praia da Luz know about Smithman or that he is unidentified and nobody appears too bothered? I would have thought identifying Smithman and ruling him out if necessary was a basic starting point?
We know they tried to destroy Amaral, their paid honcho Correia boasted about it to reporters.
And is Maddie really missing?
What ways? You don't actually mention that.
If Gerry went and started going door to door asking the locals for any sighting or information in the village of PdL and in the other nearby towns, I'd say it could generate a new lead.I'm wondering if the PJ would allow while the case is still an active investigation in Portugal.
He would need to take someone who can speak Portuguese with him to interpret.
If Gerry went and started going door to door asking the locals for any sighting or information in the village of PdL and in the other nearby towns, I'd say it could generate a new lead.
He would need to take someone who can speak Portuguese with him to interpret.
I'm wondering if the PJ would allow while the case is still an active investigation in Portugal.
Surely there is some allowance for the parents in missing child cases to make enquiries door to door.
Why would you think it would be appropriate for the parents of a missing child to make door to door enquiries while the Policia Judiciaria and Scotland Yard have an active investigation underway?Well they didn't object to the initial searches by the MW/OC employees. So why should they complain if that continued?
Well they didn't object to the initial searches by the MW/OC employees. So why should they complain if that continued?
Did MW/OC employees carry out door to door enquiries of the holiday complex when they instituted the missing child protocols and continue doing so of transient holiday populations to the resort for eleven+ years?We at least know of one visit that was to Jez Wilkins' place at 01.00 - 01.30 Hours on the 4th.
Not forgetting ...(http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BrzkRb-IUAElN8W.jpg)
Why do you insist in posting that rubbish Ern, I have already posted a sensible idea? A campaign based in Luz would have been easy to set up. A central point where publicity could be generated while seeking any information on the missing child. They had plenty of money to do it and I'm quite sure that many volunteers would have come forward too. They could also have provided a reward based on getting the child or her remains back. It isn't rocket science!Could you elaborate on this “central point where publicity could be generated while seeking any information on the missing child” please?
Kate McCann had plenty time on her hands and could have spent much of it in Luz making people aware but they chose instead to try and destroy the policemen who originally investigated them. I cannot think of a more appropriate stance for someone who is wrongly accused than to face their accusers head on instead of scuttling off back to the UK. The McCanns have done everything arse about face imo and I for one want to know why??
We at least know of one visit that was to Jez Wilkins' place at 01.00 - 01.30 Hours on the 4th.
To be effective in Portugal he would need to learn Portuguese as well.Why?
Why?to communicate with the locals.
to communicate with the locals.Do you mean the locals in Luz?
Do you mean the locals in Luz?Luz, Lagos and other villages close by as I have already said.
Jez Wilkins offered to help but was told there was no need. I find that strange TBH.
After having gone to sleep on the 3rd of May, we were woken around 01H30 by the manager of the resort, John Hill and by a friend of Gerry's. It was them who told me what had happened. I did not see or hear anything else than what has been stated in this statement. I did not take part in any searches. I offered my help but it was not necessary.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS-ROGATORY.htm
Jez also turned down the offer of attending a reconstruction because he wanted to avoid press intrusion into his life, yet his wife wrote an article in the about "my months with Madeleine" Again very strange IMO.
Jez Wilkins
I spoke with the police for a long time regarding this topic. I had some reservation about the press' intrusion onto my personal life and the hurt that resulted.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/dec/14/ukcrime.madeleinemccann
I would have preferred that Jez and Bridget had made separate statements rather than joint statements.
How bizarre you should presume to deny a wife's independence of thought from her husband's ... your post denotes a rather outmoded attitude I would say.
I would have preferred that Jez and Bridget had made separate statements rather than joint statements.
Jes was a witness ... Bridget wasn't, short of confirming that Jes was walking to settle his son.
Actually you are incorrect Brietta. Bridget was a witness to John Hill and Matthew Oldfield's visit to their apartment around 1am on the 4th May 2007.
Bridget did not know who was at the door or their purpose ... she did not see or identify anyone ... again Jes was the witness ... but what significance do you attach to the fact the alarm was being raised after all the Moyes are on record as being similarly awoken?
Snip
At 1am there was a frantic banging on our door. Jes got up to answer. I stayed listening in the dark. I knew it was bad; it could only be bad. I heard male mumbling, then Jes's voice. "You're joking?" he said. It wasn't the words, it was the tone that made me flinch. He came back in to the room. "Gerry's daughter's been abducted," he said. "She ..." I jumped up and went to check our children. They were there.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/dec/14/ukcrime.madeleinemccann
Snip
We were woken up at half past eleven at night by one of the friends of the McCanns to say 'a little girl' had 'been abducted'; those... those were the words used. So, we got dressed and joined in the search, we were out until about four in the morning with, oooh… about, I don't know, thirty people... thirty other people, maybe. The Mark Warner team were out, errm... and other guests at the Ocean Club.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id52.htm
She was awoken in the night and heard a conversation going on between her husband and others. Therefore she was a witness.
Jes was a witness ... Bridget wasn't, short of confirming that Jes was walking to settle his son.What they did, what time he left, what she did while he was away, what time he got back.
What they did, what time he left, what she did while he was away, what time he got back.
It is common place to interview witnesses separately then compare the two statements.
But she didn't give a statement.There are statements in her name jointly with Jez Wilkins.
There are statements in her name jointly with Jez Wilkins.
I don't think that will do.Who knows the law on this?
Who knows the law on this?
No two people appear in The Witness Box together.(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P13/13_VOLUME_XIIIa_Page_3407.jpg)
PS. Did they both sign whatever it was?
She could confirm what he had said and at what time they got the knock on the door.
Hearsay.
But why on earth do you consider it to be of any import?
Who can say if it wasn't of importance. I have already said I wonder why Jez Wilkins offer to help searching was turned down.Had John Hill or Matthew Oldfield mentioned this event in their statements then we could get confirmation of the offer.
She could confirm what he had said and at what time they got the knock on the door.
His wife could have helped him to narrow down the time he spoke to Gerry McCann. If, as he testified, he went straight back to his apartment then his arrival time was of interest.And if he didn't go straight back what did he do?
And if he didn't go straight back what did he do?
As it stands he spoke to Gerry McCann between 8.45 and 9.15. As such, there is no independent witness to the time of Gerry's presence near 5A.
I’d bet my house on it being nearer 9 than 9.15pm.So where did Jez Wilkins go for the half hour after the encounter?
So where did Jez Wilkins go for the half hour after the encounter?
Half hour ?What time does Bridget say he arrived home?
What time does Bridget say he arrived home?
Half hour ?Yes half hour.
Yes half hour.
Not according to any of Wilkins or his partner’s statements.What does his partner’s statement say then?
What does his partner’s statement say then?
You’ve read it.No I haven’t. I’ve read some second hand report which doesn’t quote either of them directly and I’ve also read her own account, in her own words. Which is more reliable in your estimation?
No I haven’t. I’ve read some second hand report which doesn’t quote either of them directly and I’ve also read her own account, in her own words. Which is more reliable in your estimation?
We can't turn the clock back and start again. Why was Yvonne Martin's offer of help dismissed so readily? b....r!
Personal choice. Kate didn't want her there asking impertinent questions when she was clearly distressed. And what did Yvonne Martin think she could do anyway?
The statement taken nearest to the events.by a matter of a few weeks. I take it you therefore reject Bridget’s first hand account in your its entirety in favour of the rather more vague second hand account.
Personal choice. Kate didn't want her there asking impertinent questions when she was clearly distressed. And what did Yvonne Martin think she could do anyway?
She thought she could use her expertise as a child protection social worker and help parents in crisis. She probably had a lot of experience of people in crisis, far more than the McCanns friends etc. These people though turned her away. I still find that odd.How was she to do that given that she had no jurisdiction in Portugal? I would like an answer to that.
How was she to do that given that she had no jurisdiction in Portugal? I would like an answer to that.
She evidenced how entirely unsuited she was to "help parents in crisis" when she upset the mother of the missing child even more than she already was. In what way do you think that was helping? I would like you to answer that too.
I find Yvonne Martin's behaviour odd in the extreme particularly as I find her recourse to poison pen writing one of the most unprofessional course of action to take in any circumstances that I have heard of.
She spoke English as did the McCanns so she could give them information on what would happen in the UK and what best for them to do regarding the twins. She may have asked questions at the start as she would need to know whether there was an absent father who may have abducted Madeleine before she could help.
In her words
Having worked for 25 years in the area of child protection, she felt obliged to offer help to her compatriots and went to Praia da Luz.
She didn't write a poison pen letter she simply expressed concerns regarding one of the McCanns friends and chose to remain anonymous. She only did this because she was sent away for no reason and had concerns about this person. W
Again from her statement.
She says that about two weeks after Madeleine's disappearance, when the police made an appeal for information about a man, carrying a child, who had been seen in the Luz zone, and whose clothing was described, she wrote an anonymous letter to the British police, telling them the following: : regarding the various details she observed during her contact with the McCanns it is her opinion that they could be in some way involved in the disappearance of Madeleine.
She first found them aggressive and their reaction after she showed Madeleine's parents her credentials, also seemed strange to her. Afterwards she was informed that there were no signs of a break-in in the apartment. Knowing that they are doctors she found it absolutely abnormal that they left their children alone at home. Associating all of this with her professional experience, which tells her that in 99.99 % of missing children cases, the parents or other family members are involved, she felt it was her duty to inform the police of this.
As I have said before I don't understand why they sent her away and I don't understand why there were choosy who they received help from.
All IMO.
Snip
She spoke English as did the McCanns so she could give them information on what would happen in the UK and what best for them to do regarding the twins. She may have asked questions at the start as she would need to know whether there was an absent father who may have abducted Madeleine before she could help.
by a matter of a few weeks. I take it you therefore reject Bridget’s first hand account in your its entirety in favour of the rather more vague second hand account.
According to Gerry Jez and he took part in a chat around 9.10 for a few minutes. If Bridget is correct why did it take her husband over 15 minutes to travel a few metres ?Bridget wrote that “Jes returned to our apartment just before 9.30pm” so not on the dot of 9.30. You would have him arriving back at their apartment at leat 20 minutes earlier than she remembered, who is better placed to know what time her husband returned? You or her?
Bridget wrote that “Jes returned to our apartment just before 9.30pm” so not on the dot of 9.30. You would have him arriving back at their apartment at leat 20 minutes earlier than she remembered, who is better placed to know what time her husband returned? You or her?
10, 15 minutes. It’s still a long time to walk a few meters.Fine. Stick with your own timeline then, you obviously know better than her - she was only there after all, it was only her husband, her kid, of course you would be the much better judge of what happened when.
I can’t believe Bridget had any reason to remember exactly when her husband returned.
Fine. Stick with your own timeline then, you obviously know better than her - she was only there after all, it was only her husband, her kid, of course you would be the much better judge of what happened when.
You've posted this or something similar before and it goes nowhere near answering my two questions.
Yvonne Martin's narrative of her motivation is immaterial to both.
- Yvonne Martin was an English individual. Any qualification she claimed to possess was an English one and unless you can provide evidence to the contrary neither qualified her to practice outwith boundaries and protocols in England and she most certainly had no jurisdiction to practice on foreign soil.
My question to you was ...
"How was she to do that given that she had no jurisdiction in Portugal?"- My second question to you was ...
"In what way do you think that was helping? (distressed parents)
You haven't half jumped the gun on that one.
They didn't need an interfering busybody delving into their privacy with reference to England! They were in a Portuguese jurisdiction where a non Portuguese speaker hanger on would only have been extra baggage.
It was absolutely none of her business whether or not there was some sort of custody dispute going on with fictional and a measure of her professional incompetence can surely be gauged from the harm and distress caused by her unwarranted intrusion into events which were none of her concern
For information ...
Poison pen letter ...
noun ... an anonymous letter that is libellous, abusive, or malicious.
Bearing in mind that Sally Bercow is testimony to innuendo being libellous.
More than one person can ask the same question. They are not related.(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_-_MVCBryU6w/SdBnQ7qSo3I/AAAAAAAACps/3QrmGWd0kz0/s200/24HorasPaiBiologico.jpg)How many marks out of ten do you think she deserves for her alleged role in helping distressed parents when considering the headlines in the Portuguese press stating her question as fact?
I would call it an abject fail.
I pretty much disagree with everything you have written, but I am leaving it at that now.
I know you disagree with the content of my posts ... perhaps that is because you are having difficulty refuting any of it?
Then tell me how it took 10 or 15 minutes to travel a few a few metres ?Who said he only traveled a few metres after leaving Gerry? What time did he say he left Gerry?
Who said he only traveled a few metres after leaving Gerry? What time did he say he left Gerry?
Isn’t it the case that Jez went home ?yes, he returned home just before 9.30 pm, according to his wife.
yes, he returned home just before 9.30 pm, according to his wife.
Did he perhaps meet with Gerry rather later than he thought ?
It was the Tapas timeline.
So where was he for 10 to 15 minutes ?Having a couple of crafty ciggies I bet. 8(0(*
Having a couple of crafty ciggies I bet. 8(0(*
You've posted this or something similar before and it goes nowhere near answering my two questions.
Yvonne Martin's narrative of her motivation is immaterial to both.
- Yvonne Martin was an English individual. Any qualification she claimed to possess was an English one and unless you can provide evidence to the contrary neither qualified her to practice outwith boundaries and protocols in England and she most certainly had no jurisdiction to practice on foreign soil.
My question to you was ...
"How was she to do that given that she had no jurisdiction in Portugal?"- My second question to you was ...
"In what way do you think that was helping? (distressed parents)
You haven't half jumped the gun on that one.
They didn't need an interfering busybody delving into their privacy with reference to England! They were in a Portuguese jurisdiction where a non Portuguese speaker hanger on would only have been extra baggage.
It was absolutely none of her business whether or not there was some sort of custody dispute going on with fictional and a measure of her professional incompetence can surely be gauged from the harm and distress caused by her unwarranted intrusion into events which were none of her concern
For information ...
Poison pen letter ...
noun ... an anonymous letter that is libellous, abusive, or malicious.
Bearing in mind that Sally Bercow is testimony to innuendo being libellous.
Back in England (or UK) where Yvonne has the jurisdiction what would the process be? Could a social worker just step in?
Having a couple of crafty ciggies I bet. 8(0(*
No. There is a process. No Social Worker would ever just turn up at the start of an investigation. Why would or should they?If the police had suspicions that the missing child is missing due to some actions of the parents surely someone would be concerned for the safety of the other kids. Urgency seems important too IMO. The parents are rightly suspects and have to be eliminated, so if that is the case what about the other kids.
If the police had suspicions that the missing child is missing due to some actions of the parents surely someone would be concerned for the safety of the other kids. Urgency seems important too IMO. The parents are rightly suspects and have to be eliminated, so if that is the case what about the other kids.
Jez himself has claimed in his rogatory statement that it is possible that his chat with Gerry could have happened as early as 8.45Doesn't that make the need for Jez to provide an alibi even more essential. If Jez talked to Gerry at 20h45 and then went home but arrived there 21.30 he then has a full 45 minutes he is not accounted for.
Q. Relative to the time I met Gerry McCann on the Thursday night of May 3, 2007;
As stated in my original deposition, I believe that I left the apartment around 20h30. I calculate that I met Gerry on the road between 20h45 and 21h15. I am aware of the importance of this hour and am also aware that the media announced our meeting time as 21h05. Even if this were correct, I have no idea from where such information originated. It is not possible to give you a more exact time.
Therefore it appears Jez does not rule out an much earlier chat with Gerry than Gerry claimed.
Some ten hours after the event and overnight, when The McCanns hadn't even been interviewed?In some countries it seems automatic. If a child goes missing the parents are the first suspects (based on statistics).
Doesn't that make the need for Jez to provide an alibi even more essential. If Jez talked to Gerry at 20h45 and then went home but arrived there 21.30 he then has a full 45 minutes he is not accounted for.
Yvonne could have interviewed Jez and Bridget after the McCanns had she been allowed to stay.
Doesn't that make the need for Jez to provide an alibi even more essential. If Jez talked to Gerry at 20h45 and then went home but arrived there 21.30 he then has a full 45 minutes he is not accounted for.
Yvonne could have interviewed Jez and Bridget after the McCanns had she been allowed to stay.
Didn't Jez go into The Taps Bar at some point, to use the toilet?If he met Gerry on his way home, I'd say those events happened earlier. There was enough time between 21.30 and 20.45 to do the walk in someone's opinion. I have read the whole walk he did could be done in 15 minutes but it took an hour.
What? Yvonne could have interviewed Jez and Bridget? Why not let her run the whole investigation?She might have been able to work out why the 8 month old was crying so often.
She might have been able to work out why the 8 month old was crying so often.
She might have been able to work out why the 8 month old was crying so often.
She might have been able to work out why the 8 month old was crying so often.I'm sure the parents had already had that investigated ... it is usually down to colic and he wouldn't be the first baby to be settled after a walk in his pram in the fresh air.
I'm sure the parents had already had that investigated ... it is usually down to colic and he wouldn't be the first baby to be settled after a walk in his pram in the fresh air.I found it helped too, but I never understood why going outside would make the child quieten.
I found it helped too, but I never understood why going outside would make the child quieten.
Difficult to push a pram around inside. And nothing much to distract the baby.OK I used to carry mine. If I carried them inside they kept on crying yet as soon as they went outside they would be quiet.
Didn't Jez go into The Taps Bar at some point, to use the toilet?
I don't know if the toilets were in the Tapas Bar. I think they were on the left when entering the Tapas complex, before reaching the buildings housing the bar and restaurant. Jeremy was either in the restaurant, the bar or the toilets;
Friday 4th May
between 8.30 and 9pm, while he was in the "TAPAS" restaurant, he noted that a person of around 1.70m, with long blond hair, apparently of the "Rasta," style and dressed in green military-style clothes, entered the restaurant.
Monday 7th May
I left about 8:15 to 8:30 pm. I was pushing the pram around the complex and went to the toilet near the bar. I could not see inside the restaurant.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS.htm
31st October
He walked around the main area of the resort and eventually ended up in the Tapas bar where he used the toilet facility.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY_BRIGET.htm
8th April 2008
When I arrived, I headed to the WC near the pool area. He [Rasta man] also was in the WC but appeared to be a taking a long time. I do not remember if he was still in that place when I left.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS-ROGATORY.htm
I don't know if the toilets were in the Tapas Bar. I think they were on the left when entering the Tapas complex, before reaching the buildings housing the bar and restaurant. Jeremy was either in the restaurant, the bar or the toilets;OK it is well documented but it is prior to the meeting with Gerry not after.
Friday 4th May
between 8.30 and 9pm, while he was in the "TAPAS" restaurant, he noted that a person of around 1.70m, with long blond hair, apparently of the "Rasta," style and dressed in green military-style clothes, entered the restaurant.
Monday 7th May
I left about 8:15 to 8:30 pm. I was pushing the pram around the complex and went to the toilet near the bar. I could not see inside the restaurant.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS.htm
31st October
He walked around the main area of the resort and eventually ended up in the Tapas bar where he used the toilet facility.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY_BRIGET.htm
8th April 2008
When I arrived, I headed to the WC near the pool area. He [Rasta man] also was in the WC but appeared to be a taking a long time. I do not remember if he was still in that place when I left.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS-ROGATORY.htm
OK it is well documented but it is prior to the meeting with Gerry not after.
OK it is well documented but it is prior to the meeting with Gerry not after.
Where did he leave the child in the pram I wonder while he used the toilet ?
Where did he leave the child in the pram I wonder while he used the toilet ?
When reading things in retrospect it is easy to assume that everything followed everything else in a logical sequence of events when in reality that was not the case.
For example for quite a long time I assumed that the Jane Tanner sighting and the Smith sighting were made known to the police in the hours after Madeleine's disappearance ~ Jane's on their arrival at the scene and the Smiths' when the news broke about a missing child that morning.
I was amazed to be told ... and I had to be told because at that time I was not familiar with dates of events as recorded in the files ... that there was a time gap of a fortnight between both events.
Which apparently is much the same time it took for Yvonne Martin to communicate her concerns about an individual in the McCann party in an anonymous letter to the British police while she was still in Portugal and the Portuguese investigation into Madeleine's disappearance was in full flow.
Jane Tanner was questioned about her "sighting" whilst making her statement on 10th May 2007.
Yvonne Martin was questioned again in mid-November, I notice. Rebelo was interested then.
Jane Tanner was questioned about her "sighting" whilst making her statement on 10th May 2007.
I think the whole PJ investigation including Rebelo was hampered by their misunderstanding of the dog alerts...
As far as the PJ were concerned... The dogs who had solved 200 cases... Had never been wrong... Detected cadaver in 5a..
If that was true then it's enough to convince anyone the McCanns were guilty
Jane Tanner told the police about the man she had seen carrying a child away from the apartment when they arrived on the scene.
Snip
And then I think they, Russell was there when I spoke to the PJ, because I can remember Russell coming in with me when I spoke to the PJ, because there was Russell and Gerry was there as well in the apartment when I spoke to the PJ. And that was the first time I'd ever been into their, into Kate and Gerry's apartment through the whole week, I hadn't, it might seem like, but we hadn't really been into their apartment before".
01.04.52 4078 "Sorry, was that on the night that Madeleine had disappeared?"
Reply "That was at three o'clock in the morning after she'd disappeared, yeah".
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.htm
She reiterated her sighting when she gave her witness statement on 4th May
Snip
As regards these details, she does not know what Madeleine was wearing at the moment of her disappearance, because she did not talk to anyone about this. As she concerns the man she saw, she only spoke to Gerald about this, not entering into details, and to the police.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE-TANNER.htm
The question isn't why Jane Tanner took no action as soon as she could for the simple reason she did. The question is why did it take Yvonne Martin so long to report her concerns ... not to the appropriate authority but to the British police till some time later if she thought children might be at risk?
Jane Tanner told the police about the man she had seen carrying a child away from the apartment when they arrived on the scene.
Snip
And then I think they, Russell was there when I spoke to the PJ, because I can remember Russell coming in with me when I spoke to the PJ, because there was Russell and Gerry was there as well in the apartment when I spoke to the PJ. And that was the first time I'd ever been into their, into Kate and Gerry's apartment through the whole week, I hadn't, it might seem like, but we hadn't really been into their apartment before".
01.04.52 4078 "Sorry, was that on the night that Madeleine had disappeared?"
Reply "That was at three o'clock in the morning after she'd disappeared, yeah".
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.htm
She reiterated her sighting when she gave her witness statement on 4th May
Snip
As regards these details, she does not know what Madeleine was wearing at the moment of her disappearance, because she did not talk to anyone about this. As she concerns the man she saw, she only spoke to Gerald about this, not entering into details, and to the police.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE-TANNER.htm
The question isn't why Jane Tanner took no action as soon as she could for the simple reason she did. The question is why did it take Yvonne Martin so long to report her concerns ... not to the appropriate authority but to the British police till some time later if she thought children might be at risk?
I think you are trying to talk up the significance of the dog alerts to the investigation.
I would say Im absolutely right ...perhaps you should reconsider
Chief Inspector Tavares de Almeida said he believed the British child had died in her family's apartment in the Algarve resort of Praia da Luz on the day she went missing. He told the court the main evidence for this was the findings of British police sniffer dogs sent to Portugal to examine the flat. The McCanns' lawyer, Isabel Duarte, challenged this claim, arguing that the results from sniffer dogs did not constitute proof and were not allowed as evidence in the case.
www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/jan/12/madeleine-mccann-parents-defamation-book
so according to Almeida....the main evidence re death in the apartment was the dog alerts......the whole PJ case is based on this main evidence...an absolute disgrace IMO
I see we're back to the same argument again. Let's be clear, the sniffer dog alerts were suggestive of cadaver odour, no more or no less can be implied imo.
we are back to the same argument because it has never gone away...according to Almeida who wrote the interim report the main evidence that Maddie died in the aprtment was the dog alerts....the PJ thought cadaver odour was confirmed...its in the police files
Well they couldn't have read and/or understood the dog handlers very comprehensive report then.
Now back to the topic please,
Ive already made the point...both the reports by Harrison and Grime are in english so they certainly havent read them....was the whole case against the mccanns built on a misunderstanding...or two
No, just good old forensics and a coppers nose. Now Yvonne Martin please.There were zero forensics in the case against the McCanns.
No, just good old forensics and a coppers nose.
There were zero forensics in the case against the McCanns.
According to the PJ they spoke only to Gerry McCann.
the forensics indicated nothing so its just the coppers nose...so the whole case was built on a good old coppers nose
I would certainly accept that...we only have to look at Colin stagg and the Jill dando case to show how reliable taht is
You are very dismissive of the forensics davel, you do realise that what isn't found is just as useful as what is found?