Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: barrier on November 10, 2018, 01:03:52 PM
Title: Was there really a deal or plea bargain?
Post by: barrier on November 10, 2018, 01:03:52 PM
"On this occasion the police officers were right to be angry. Like many things said about the McCann affair over the past days and months, the story was wrong. There was no offer of a plea bargain. It had all been "a misunderstanding", the McCann lawyer, Carlos Pinto de Abreu, explained the following day".
51
Title: Re: Was there really a deal or plea bargain?
Post by: faithlilly on November 10, 2018, 01:06:33 PM
"On this occasion the police officers were right to be angry. Like many things said about the McCann affair over the past days and months, the story was wrong. There was no offer of a plea bargain. It had all been "a misunderstanding", the McCann lawyer, Carlos Pinto de Abreu, explained the following day".
Indeed Barrier.
Title: Re: Was there really a deal or plea bargain?
Post by: Mr Gray on November 10, 2018, 01:17:12 PM
"On this occasion the police officers were right to be angry. Like many things said about the McCann affair over the past days and months, the story was wrong. There was no offer of a plea bargain. It had all been "a misunderstanding", the McCann lawyer, Carlos Pinto de Abreu, explained the following day".
I think there certainly was a plea bargain... The lawyer is being diplomatic imo
Title: Re: Was there really a deal or plea bargain?
Post by: faithlilly on November 10, 2018, 01:19:44 PM
Ok this is a fact,once again what the McCann lawyer was quoted as saying.
"On this occasion the police officers were right to be angry. Like many things said about the McCann affair over the past days and months, the story was wrong. There was no offer of a plea bargain. It had all been "a misunderstanding", the McCann lawyer, Carlos Pinto de Abreu, explained the following day".
Title: Re: Was there really a deal or plea bargain?
Post by: Mr Gray on November 10, 2018, 01:59:02 PM
Ok this is a fact,once again what the McCann lawyer was quoted as saying.
"On this occasion the police officers were right to be angry. Like many things said about the McCann affair over the past days and months, the story was wrong. There was no offer of a plea bargain. It had all been "a misunderstanding", the McCann lawyer, Carlos Pinto de Abreu, explained the following day".
So what is the quote... Check again
Title: Re: Was there really a deal or plea bargain?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 10, 2018, 02:27:21 PM
The fact is her lawyer told her to not answer questions. There is a reason for it.
"They won't be refusing to answer any questions." Susan Healy got that wrong!
Title: Re: Was there really a deal or plea bargain?
Post by: Angelo222 on November 10, 2018, 03:06:06 PM
The fact is her lawyer told her to not answer questions.
In my opinion her lawyer thought she was involved in some way so panicked when he realised that she could succumb to intense police questioning. If Kate McCann knew she was innocent she should have answered the police questions fully. She is supposedly an intelligent woman after all and wasn't an alcoholic or a drug addict.
Honesty is the best policy they say, refusing to answer the questions was a bad mistake imo
Title: Re: Was there really a deal or plea bargain?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 10, 2018, 06:08:05 PM
I think there certainly was a plea bargain... The lawyer is being diplomatic imo
I too think there was a plea bargain put on the table ... make what you will of this translation. Did the prosecutor refuse to go with the murder charge?
Snip
MINISTRY OF PUBLIC RECOVERY On Thursday, when the Judiciary Police chose Kate to be questioned, the investigators admitted that she was being charged, and if she did not fully respond to the evidence gathered by the investigation, she would at least attribute to her the suspicion of a felony murder.
Only then could Madeleine's mother be present at the first judicial interrogation, so that the examining magistrate would apply coercive measures, in addition to the Term of Identity and Residence.
During the day of Thursday everything changed. The prosecutor, who began by admitting the detention outside the flagrante delicto, understood then only indications of negligent homicide and concealment of the corpse, none of which these crimes admit to the application of pre-trial detention and make it impossible to present to court.
Ler mais em: https://www.cmjornal.pt/exclusivos/detalhe/pj-acredita-que-kate-matou-a-filha
Title: Re: Was there really a deal or plea bargain?
Post by: Brietta on November 10, 2018, 10:08:45 PM
I think there certainly was a plea bargain... The lawyer is being diplomatic imo
In my opinion it is unequivocal that she was certainly offered something.
Snip
Kate refuted all these suspicions in the Judicial Police of Portimão where she was interrogated and it was in this picture that she was explained the penal framework of the homicide by negligence.
The CM knows that the investigators, although they did not directly confront her with a possible assault, explained to her that by not confessing the accident could open the door to a more painful legal framework.
Which means that it would cease to be a negligent homicide, to go on to a qualified crime or with eventual deceit.
Ler mais em: https://www.cmjornal.pt/exclusivos/detalhe/pj-acredita-que-kate-matou-a-filha
Title: Re: Was there really a deal or plea bargain?
Post by: Brietta on November 10, 2018, 10:12:35 PM
"On this occasion the police officers were right to be angry. Like many things said about the McCann affair over the past days and months, the story was wrong. There was no offer of a plea bargain. It had all been "a misunderstanding", the McCann lawyer, Carlos Pinto de Abreu, explained the following day".
Did he?
PGR AND MCCANN ATTORNEY FINISHED The attorney general of the Republic and the lawyer of the McCann family, Carlos Pinto de Abreu, met before the interrogation of the couple, at the Judicial Police of Portimão.
The meeting took place at a time when Pinto de Abreu was already a lawyer for the English family but its content remains unknown.
Confronted by the CM with the meeting, the lawyer hid in a single statement: "The statute of the Bar Association prevents me from revealing the contents of my professional meetings."
No comment could be obtained from the attorney general's office.
The various contacts made during the day by the CM proved fruitless.
Ler mais em: https://www.cmjornal.pt/exclusivos/detalhe/pj-acredita-que-kate-matou-a-filha
Title: Re: Was there really a deal or plea bargain?
Post by: The General on November 12, 2018, 08:07:00 AM
Mr Hill: No. We were part of that process but the principal reason for that suspicion has to be laid at the door of the Portuguese police.
They were the people who named Mr and Mrs McCann as the suspects and repeatedly questioned them for many, many hours and they were the people who leaked all the information about them.
Yes, we were reporting what happened. The alternative would have been for the British press not to report anything. Do you think that would have been a possibility, when the rest of the world was reporting on this case, for the British press to say nothing? It is not practical. We are all talking here in hindsight and hindsight is a marvellous thing but the fact of the matter is that at the time these reports and these leaks were happening on a daily basis and that is the truth. https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200910/cmselect/cmcumeds/362/9042803.htm
How many sessions and how many hours? It wasn't many, was it, given the circumstances? I'm fairly sure the T7 were questioned a similar number of times and duration?
Title: Re: Was there really a deal or plea bargain?
Post by: slartibartfast on November 12, 2018, 08:29:49 AM
“In some legal systems, a plea bargain is an agreement that, if an accused person says they are guilty, they will be charged with a less serious crime or will receive a less severe punishment.”
Note an agreement between prosecution and defence that a plea will result in a lesser sentence. This is not the same as pointing out that, if you have committed a lesser offence, admitting to it reduces the risk of being charged and found guilty of a more serious one.
Title: Re: Was there really a deal or plea bargain?
Post by: Eleanor on November 12, 2018, 08:47:03 AM
“In some legal systems, a plea bargain is an agreement that, if an accused person says they are guilty, they will be charged with a less serious crime or will receive a less severe punishment.”
Note an agreement between prosecution and defence that a plea will result in a lesser sentence. This is not the same as pointing out that, if you have committed a lesser offence, admitting to it reduces the risk of being charged and found guilty of a more serious one.
I don't think that you are wrong but it would have been very easily misunderstood, especially if you didn't do either.
Title: Re: Was there really a deal or plea bargain?
Post by: Mr Gray on November 12, 2018, 08:54:03 AM
“In some legal systems, a plea bargain is an agreement that, if an accused person says they are guilty, they will be charged with a less serious crime or will receive a less severe punishment.”
Note an agreement between prosecution and defence that a plea will result in a lesser sentence. This is not the same as pointing out that, if you have committed a lesser offence, admitting to it reduces the risk of being charged and found guilty of a more serious one.
I think your second example is, a clumsy attempt to pretend not to offer a, plea bargain when in fact that is exactly what is happening ...being coerced into pleading guilty to alesser offence to avoid being charged with a more serious offence
Title: Re: Was there really a deal or plea bargain?
Post by: slartibartfast on November 12, 2018, 08:57:35 AM
I think your second example is, a clumsy attempt to pretend not to offer a, plea bargain when in fact that is exactly what is happening ...being coerced into pleading guilty to alesser offence to avoid being charged with a more serious offence
It would be remiss of a lawyer, who is never certain of their client’s innocence, not to check out options with them.
Coerced is disingenuous.
Title: Re: Was there really a deal or plea bargain?
Post by: Mr Gray on November 12, 2018, 09:01:24 AM
How many sessions and how many hours? It wasn't many, was it, given the circumstances? I'm fairly sure the T7 were questioned a similar number of times and duration?
Both parents on 4th May Gerry on 10th Nay Kate on 6th September Both on 7th September
I would say surprisingly few sessions.
Title: Re: Was there really a deal or plea bargain?
Post by: The General on November 12, 2018, 09:28:58 AM
Was it Kate who misunderstood? Kate quite likely had no real idea of what was going on.
Besides, it's a moot point. Kate didn't confess.
If she had no idea what was going on it is quite likely that she misunderstood. What I don’t understand though is why she then let her relatives run with the accusation even when her lawyer, as is likely, explained the situation to her.
And while I agree it is a moot point it does illustrate how things were being twisted at the time.
Title: Re: Was there really a deal or plea bargain?
Post by: Mr Gray on November 12, 2018, 12:32:29 PM
If she had no idea what was going on it is quite likely that she misunderstood. What I don’t understand though is why she then let her relatives run with the accusation even when her lawyer, as is likely, explained the situation to her.
And while I agree it is a moot point it does illustrate how things were being twisted at the time.
Things were being twisted... But not by kate
Title: Re: Was there really a deal or plea bargain?
Post by: Eleanor on November 12, 2018, 12:33:45 PM
If she had no idea what was going on it is quite likely that she misunderstood. What I don’t understand though is why she then let her relatives run with the accusation even when her lawyer, as is likely, explained the situation to her.
And while I agree it is a moot point it does illustrate how things were being twisted at the time.
Indeed it does explain, but it is all so frightfully convoluted because no one knows what went on in the heads of anyone.
The harder I try then the more I understand the rights of any of you to disagree with me, but it did come hard when it is all so obvious to me. But at least I am getting somewhere. Sheesh, I might finish up as a Saint if this goes on for much longer. And then where would we all be?
Title: Re: Was there really a deal or plea bargain?
Post by: Lace on November 12, 2018, 12:52:59 PM
How many sessions and how many hours? It wasn't many, was it, given the circumstances? I'm fairly sure the T7 were questioned a similar number of times and duration?
Snip The dramatic development came after the 39-year-old part-time GP spent 11 hours at an Algarve police station being questioned by detectives.
She has returned to the police station in Portimao this morning to be asked "difficult" questions about her missing daughter.
In order to ask such questions – such as whether Madeleine died by accident – her status has to be changed to "arguida", or formal suspect. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1562420/Madeleine-McCanns-mother-fears-death-charge.html
Title: Re: Was there really a deal or plea bargain?
Post by: Sunny on November 12, 2018, 03:59:45 PM
Was it Kate who misunderstood? Kate quite likely had no real idea of what was going on.
Besides, it's a moot point. Kate didn't confess.
I don't believe it is a moot point. Neither do supporters here and it seems elsewhere from my reading. Supporters use this error of understanding by Kate mcCann to bash the PJ yet again. All IMO
Title: Re: Was there really a deal or plea bargain?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 14, 2018, 12:04:10 PM
No it isn't, it's a lawyer's advice to his client based on his assessment of the situation. If Kate McCann had confessed to a lesser crime there was nothing to stop the public prosecutor from deciding to charge her with something else.
Title: Re: Was there really a deal or plea bargain?
Post by: Mr Gray on November 16, 2018, 05:48:12 PM
No it isn't, it's a lawyer's advice to his client based on his assessment of the situation. If Kate McCann had confessed to a lesser crime there was nothing to stop the public prosecutor from deciding to charge her with something else.
Who said the offer came from the lawyer and not the, police
Title: Re: Was there really a deal or plea bargain?
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 16, 2018, 05:51:15 PM