What % of parents (or other caregivers) would leave Madeliene (and twins)..

[Holly Goodhead]

in similar circumstances?

MW offered a listening service at some sites but this was through locked doors.  Parents do leave children in hotel rooms but again in locked rooms with or without some sort of monitor/listening service.   

Does anyone know of children left as the McCann children were left.  Imo this case revolves around the unusualness of the combination:

- No adult supervision
- No listening service
- No baby monitor
- Unlocked patio doors
- Parents leaving at same time every night for same destination and re-entering and exiting the patio doors  (which can't be locked from outside) at sort of regular intervals several times a night.

And lets not forget children of T7 were all in locked rooms.

Was KM trying to have it all?  A working mum (GP) of 3 under 4 yoa who by the time of arriving at PDL was exhausted and lost her head? 

I don't wish to sound judgmental and/or sanctimonious but the above are the facts and imo it has been unhelpful to downplay the precarious situation MM and the twins were left in.  Do people not see the facts or are they pussy-footing around the McCanns to assuage their inevitable guilt and regret? 

[Mr Gray]

in similar circumstances?

MW offered a listening service at some sites but this was through locked doors.  Parents do leave children in hotel rooms but again in locked rooms with or without some sort of monitor/listening service.   

Does anyone know of children left as the McCann children were left.  Imo this case revolves around the unusualness of the combination:

- No adult supervision
- No listening service
- No baby monitor
- Unlocked patio doors
- Parents leaving at same time every night for same destination and re-entering and exiting the patio doors  (which can't be locked from outside) at sort of regular intervals several times a night.

And lets not forget children of T7 were all in locked rooms.

Was KM trying to have it all?  A working mum (GP) of 3 under 4 yoa who by the time of arriving at PDL was exhausted and lost her head? 

I don't wish to sound judgmental and/or sanctimonious but the above are the facts and imo it has been unhelpful to downplay the precarious situation MM and the twins were left in.  Do people not see the facts or are they pussy-footing around the McCanns to assuage their inevitable guilt and regret?

I think most of us realise it was the wrong thing to do but I dint see the point in continually harping on about it..

[Holly Goodhead]

I think most of us realise it was the wrong thing to do but I dint see the point in continually harping on about it..

But this is the very point I am making; it's not a question of making moral judgments etc but simply highlighting the unusualness of the way in which the children were left is imo key to solving the case.

[Holly Goodhead]

But this is the very point I am making; it's not a question of making moral judgments etc but simply highlighting the unusualness of the way in which the children were left is imo key to solving the case.

I would suggest the reason MM is the only child who has disappeared from overseas holiday accommodation since mass tourism took off in the 60's/70's is not that:

- she was somehow special to anyone outside her circle of family and friends
- criminal gangs were lurking in the shadows
- creepy lone men were lurking in the shadows
- MW/OC staff procured a key to 5A
- burglars decided to abandon looking for the usual valuables to sell on for quick, easy ready cash

but that the circumstances in which MM and the twins were left provided a low risk opportunity for someone who wanted a child.  And those circumstances could only have been known to a finite number of people.

[Robittybob1]

But this is the very point I am making; it's not a question of making moral judgments etc but simply highlighting the unusualness of the way in which the children were left is imo key to solving the case.

How does it solve the case?

[Robittybob1]

I would suggest the reason MM is the only child who has disappeared from overseas holiday accommodation since mass tourism took off in the 60's/70's is not that:

- she was somehow special to anyone outside her circle of family and friends
- criminal gangs were lurking in the shadows
- creepy lone men were lurking in the shadows
- MW/OC staff procured a key to 5A
- burglars decided to abandon looking for the usual valuables to sell on for quick, easy ready cash

but that the circumstances in which MM and the twins were left provided a low risk opportunity for someone who wanted a child.  And those circumstances could only have been known to a finite number of people.

What about a day where all of the above all rub shoulders?

[ShiningInLuz]

I would suggest the reason MM is the only child who has disappeared from overseas holiday accommodation since mass tourism took off in the 60's/70's is not that:

- she was somehow special to anyone outside her circle of family and friends
- criminal gangs were lurking in the shadows
- creepy lone men were lurking in the shadows
- MW/OC staff procured a key to 5A
- burglars decided to abandon looking for the usual valuables to sell on for quick, easy ready cash

but that the circumstances in which MM and the twins were left provided a low risk opportunity for someone who wanted a child.  And those circumstances could only have been known to a finite number of people.

You might wish to view the Panorama 10th anniversary special.

I'm not going to name names, but you appear to be heading down a track which might lead you to said person, based on information mainly in the PJ Files.

[Holly Goodhead]

How does it solve the case?

Well because it isn't like searching for a needle in a haystack imo.  The key to solving the case imo is to identify who knew

- No adult supervision
- No listening service
- No baby monitor
- Unlocked patio doors
- Parents leaving at same time every night for same destination and re-entering and exiting the patio doors  (which can't be locked from outside) at sort of regular intervals several times a night.

Put all such individuals under the microscope along with any testimonies provided to date.

[Robittybob1]

You might wish to view the Panorama 10th anniversary special.

I'm not going to name names, but you appear to be heading down a track which might lead you to said person, based on information mainly in the PJ Files.

Could cadaver dogs be useful in helping Holly find this said person?

[Mr Gray]

Well because it isn't like searching for a needle in a haystack imo.  The key to solving the case imo is to identify who knew

- No adult supervision
- No listening service
- No baby monitor
- Unlocked patio doors
- Parents leaving at same time every night for same destination and re-entering and exiting the patio doors  (which can't be locked from outside) at sort of regular intervals several times a night.

Put all such individuals under the microscope along with any testimonies provided to date.

Di you not think this will not already have been done

[Holly Goodhead]

You might wish to view the Panorama 10th anniversary special.

I'm not going to name names, but you appear to be heading down a track which might lead you to said person, based on information mainly in the PJ Files.

Thanks.  I think I might have listened to it; is it the one presented by I think Jeremy Vine?  Anyway I'll listen again and see if it aligns with my theory and suspects. 

[Holly Goodhead]

Di you not think this will not already have been done

No.

[Mr Gray]

No.

I would think it has... Basic policing

[misty]

in similar circumstances?

MW offered a listening service at some sites but this was through locked doors.  Parents do leave children in hotel rooms but again in locked rooms with or without some sort of monitor/listening service.   

Does anyone know of children left as the McCann children were left.  Imo this case revolves around the unusualness of the combination:

- No adult supervision
- No listening service
- No baby monitor
- Unlocked patio doors
- Parents leaving at same time every night for same destination and re-entering and exiting the patio doors  (which can't be locked from outside) at sort of regular intervals several times a night.

And lets not forget children of T7 were all in locked rooms.

Was KM trying to have it all?  A working mum (GP) of 3 under 4 yoa who by the time of arriving at PDL was exhausted and lost her head? 

I don't wish to sound judgmental and/or sanctimonious but the above are the facts and imo it has been unhelpful to downplay the precarious situation MM and the twins were left in.  Do people not see the facts or are they pussy-footing around the McCanns to assuage their inevitable guilt and regret?

The abduction & murder of Sophie Hook appears to fit most of your criteria.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Sophie_Hook

Adding to that, my daughter recently helped out at a food festival which involved also camping out overnight. There were several families on the campsite but during the evening she worked (until almost midnight) she observed several parents enjoying the entertainment & drinking, children nowhere in sight. She believed the children were in the tents on their own........

[Holly Goodhead]

The abduction & murder of Sophie Hook appears to fit most of your criteria.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Sophie_Hook

Oh yes I recall this case now but again its circumstances colliding ie Hughes in the vicinity and spying on the children listening to the conversation about spending a night in the tent.  Its the combi of an opportunity presenting and a vulnerable young child but the difference here is that Hughes was caught and convicted, the victim's body was recovered and the motive was clear.  Also he was seen lurking and identified.  He did not have time to prepare it was that night or never. 

Adding to that, my daughter recently helped out at a food festival which involved also camping out overnight. There were several families on the campsite but during the evening she worked (until almost midnight) she observed several parents enjoying the entertainment & drinking, children nowhere in sight. She believed the children were in the tents on their own........

Well I don't know the set-up here but anyone who wanted to abduct a child from such an environment would need to enter the tent perhaps not knowing exactly who was inside including any dogs and then the child would have to be assaulted/murdered then and there and/or spirited away elsewhere which may or may not have presented difficulties.  And from what you're saying no child was actually assaulted, murdered or disappeared?

The situation with MM was far lower risk and the way in which the children were left night after night allowed the perps to plan ahead.