Author Topic: Dog Alerts- Evidence or not?  (Read 170943 times)

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Offline Icanhandlethetruth

Re: Dog Alerts- Evidence or not?
« Reply #600 on: February 24, 2020, 05:09:53 PM »
Any Topic I start descends into Insults and Punch Ups so try not to take it too personally.


Thank you Eleanor, Wise words.
I can take the punch ups and insults but some of the other stuff gets under my skin.

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Dog Alerts- Evidence or not?
« Reply #601 on: February 24, 2020, 06:08:07 PM »

Thank you Eleanor, Wise words.
I can take the punch ups and insults but some of the other stuff gets under my skin.
Perhaps you should consider a name change then?
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Dog Alerts- Evidence or not?
« Reply #602 on: February 24, 2020, 06:15:58 PM »
Perhaps you should consider a name change then?

Very good

Offline Eleanor

Re: Dog Alerts- Evidence or not?
« Reply #603 on: February 24, 2020, 06:21:51 PM »
There is Debate and there is Bullying.  Let's not do the latter.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Dog Alerts- Evidence or not?
« Reply #604 on: February 24, 2020, 10:08:09 PM »
I've posted this before..but to remind those who may have forgotten..


Taken from epidode 8...the trial  prof John Cassella is a professor of Forensic science, he is a colleague of Grime at Staffs University and wrote the forward to Grimes white paper on cadaver dogs


We spoke to Prof  John Cassella about the cadaver dog evidence and discovered that it shouldnt have been included in the trial..the dogs were there just for information to help the police..and  their indications needed backing up with forensics....Cassella speaks live on several occasions so we know for sure they met and spoke to him


Further on the Narrator says....David applied to appeal his case in 2015 to the SCCRC and argued that the evidence re the dogs should not have been heard...they agreed...they said it wasnt of sufficient standard to be presented to a Jury..it wasn't  admissible
« Last Edit: February 25, 2020, 01:04:02 PM by Admin »

Offline The General

Re: Dog Alerts- Evidence or not?
« Reply #605 on: February 25, 2020, 08:07:09 AM »
I've posted this before..but to remind those who may have forgotten..


Taken from epidode 8...the trial  prof John Cassella is a professor of Forensic science, he is a colleague of Grime at Staffs University and wrote the forward to Grimes white paper on cadaver dogs


We spoke to Prof  John Cassella about the cadaver dog evidence and discovered that it shouldnt have been included in the trial..the dogs were there just for information to help the police..and  their indications needed backing up with forensics....Cassella speaks live on several occasions so we know for sure they met and spoke to him


Further on the Narrator says....David aplied to appeal his case in 2015 to the SCCRC and argued that the evidence re the dogs should not have been heard...they agreed...they said it wasnt of sufficient standard to be presented to a Jury..it wasn't  admissible
This is the same Professor John Cassella who is more than happy for VRD dogs to find the grave that he used for his recent chemical analyses of soil and water for the location of a buried body.
So there's two premise at play here - there's the validity and reliability of the dogs, then there's the 'admissibility' in 'UK only' courts.
If we take each in isolation, using Cassella - he states that he used the dogs to find the subject grave for his paper that some of you read, but few understood - so check the first test off your list - he finds them reliable enough to be able to assist, nay, find his subject grave site. So irrespective of the legal standing, which is not in contention in this point, we have confirmation that, in Professor Cassella's opinion, the dogs are reliable enough and has witnessed their abilities first hand and endorsed them in the paper and credited Mark Harrison.
Now for the sticky bit - Davel does not attack the premise of admissibility, as the dog alert evidence has been permitted at least once before. No, he has brought a new concept in to the discussion; the concept of whether they should have been allowed. I contend that this is rendered moot, as, surely we are in agreement that, if we use the tenets of UK civil law, precedents are presided over by an appointed judge and this is then the standard thereafter until challenged (e.g. Lord Atkins presiding over the 'snail in the bottle' case of 1932 and for the first time defining 'care for thy neighbour')
If we use the example of the Gilroy case and explore further, yesterday's contention that the prosecution in the case were somehow remiss in their including the dog alert evidence. I would contend that the decision was probably ruminated over for some time, given the admittedly contentious nature of the evidence and the fact that they would be breaking new ground. To suggest that the prosecution team, after months of building a case, would jeopardise it with the introduction of superfluous evidence on a whim is in my opinion plainly incorrect.
More likely, and I say that because I wasn't there, but a reasonable man would be right to assume that they realised that they were building a case purely on circumstantial evidence, therefore the weight  and volume of that evidence was of importance. Combine that with their failure to get the silver bullet of definitive CCTV footage of Susan Pilley entering her work, they knew that more was more.
As with all evidence, as I discussed yesterday, they have to apply the three tests of relevance; admissibility; and weight. This evidence is presented at pre-trial and disclosed to the other side (rules of disclosure: Disclosure is providing the defence with copies or access to all material that is capable of undermining the prosecution case and/or assisting the defence.) There's no doubt, in my most humble opinion, that both sides looked upon the dog alert evidence in total contrast - the prosecution would have laid out their case for admissibility and presented as such, hoping to add further weight of 'overwhelming' circumstantial evidence to sway the jury. The defence would, in all likelihood, have not contended its admissibility as perhaps they saw it as shaky ground. Bearing in mind the quality and veracity of the defence team is not a factor here.

So, in summary, yes, Cassella likes the dogs and is happy to use their services and has first hand accounts of them being successful.
Yes, dog evidence has been used, successfully (to date).
The concept of whether they should have been used, irrespective of the opinion of great scientific luminaries (not legal), is rendered irrelevant, because they have. If convicted murderer David Gilroy would like to employ the services of Professor Cassella at his next appeal to repeat his assertion that, in this instance, they should not have been admitted, then he should reach out. I would rather suggest that a man who spent a lifetime trying to assist in furthering post mortem science and thereby assisting law enforcement, would baulk at such a suggestion.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2020, 11:56:15 AM by Admin »
The 2nd Youngest Member of the Forum

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Dog Alerts- Evidence or not?
« Reply #606 on: February 25, 2020, 08:20:10 AM »
It’s all very well using dogs to find grave sites in experiments. If they alert to the wrong place first and take a couple of goes to find the right place then no harm done and noone’s liberty is at stake.  However using the bark of a dog with no supporting evidence to condemn a man to life imprisonment is quite another matter and closely akin to throwing witches in rivers to see if they float, a method which also called it correctly on numerous occasions when perfectly innocent women were cleared of the charges as they drowned.
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline The General

Re: Dog Alerts- Evidence or not?
« Reply #607 on: February 25, 2020, 08:38:59 AM »
It’s all very well using dogs to find grave sites in experiments. If they alert to the wrong place first and take a couple of goes to find the right place then no harm done and noone’s liberty is at stake.  However using the bark of a dog with no supporting evidence to condemn a man to life imprisonment is quite another matter and closely akin to throwing witches in rivers to see if they float, a method which also called it correctly on numerous occasions when perfectly innocent women were cleared of the charges as they drowned.
Disappointed. I didn't even go there. That's another step and not what was being discussed.
Besides, if we extend your point out, for 'the bark of a dog' read 'low copy number DNA' 10 years ago, or 'cellular mast triangulation' 20 years ago, or 'muzzle flash analysis at close quarters' 50 years ago, or 'Harry Jackson's fingerprints' 1902, or matching paper fragments in Edwards Culshaw's skull in 1784. All groundbreaking, all with someone's 'liberty at stake'.

Your 'drowning witches' analogy is odd, given that these same people used to treat syphylis with mercury and clergy practiced necromancy. But I will concede that drowning witches is now generally frowned upon.
The 2nd Youngest Member of the Forum

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Dog Alerts- Evidence or not?
« Reply #608 on: February 25, 2020, 08:53:21 AM »
Disappointed. I didn't even go there. That's another step and not what was being discussed.
Besides, if we extend your point out, for 'the bark of a dog' read 'low copy number DNA' 10 years ago, or 'cellular mast triangulation' 20 years ago, or 'muzzle flash analysis at close quarters' 50 years ago, or 'Harry Jackson's fingerprints' 1902, or matching paper fragments in Edwards Culshaw's skull in 1784. All groundbreaking, all with someone's 'liberty at stake'.

Your 'drowning witches' analogy is odd, given that these same people used to treat syphylis with mercury and clergy practiced necromancy. But I will concede that drowning witches is now generally frowned upon.
What is being discussed is whether dog barks alone have and /or should be used in evidence.  I think my post addresses that point.  Also, I think your analogies are odd.  Excusing miscarriages of justice based on possible historical miscarriages of justice is not a valid point imo.
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline The General

Re: Dog Alerts- Evidence or not?
« Reply #609 on: February 25, 2020, 09:20:03 AM »
What is being discussed is whether dog barks alone have and /or should be used in evidence.  I think my post addresses that point.  Also, I think your analogies are odd.  Excusing miscarriages of justice based on possible historical miscarriages of justice is not a valid point imo.
Who's excusing what? I'm pointing out that 'evidence' has evolved over time and will continue to do so.
What is admissible today would have seemed science fiction in the past, or, dare I say it, witchcraft.
And you're generalising again. I'm discussing the Gilroy case independently, exploring the concept of establishment of precedent (albeit criminal as opposed to civil) and Davros' assertion that the evidence should not have been permitted. Just because Cassella, a scientist, states that opinion, doesn't and didn't make any difference.
The concept of reliability is for another day.
The 2nd Youngest Member of the Forum

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Dog Alerts- Evidence or not?
« Reply #610 on: February 25, 2020, 09:27:48 AM »
Who's excusing what? I'm pointing out that 'evidence' has evolved over time and will continue to do so.
What is admissible today would have seemed science fiction in the past, or, dare I say it, witchcraft.
And you're generalising again. I'm discussing the Gilroy case independently, exploring the concept of establishment of precedent (albeit criminal as opposed to civil) and Davros' assertion that the evidence should not have been permitted. Just because Cassella, a scientist, states that opinion, doesn't and didn't make any difference.
The concept of reliability is for another day.
You introduced the concept of reliability when you kicked off your “thesis” with a discussion about the alleged reliability of the dogs in Cassella’s own experiments.  But I do agree, there can be no doubt that in the Gilroy case the dog alerts were entered in evidence, I don’t think that means we are not allowed to question whether or not it should have been though does it?
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Dog Alerts- Evidence or not?
« Reply #611 on: February 25, 2020, 09:31:01 AM »
This is the same Professor John Cassella who is more than happy for VRD dogs to find the grave that he used for his recent chemical analyses of soil and water for the location of a buried body.
So there's two premise at play here - there's the validity and reliability of the dogs, then there's the 'admissibility' in 'UK only' courts.
If we take each in isolation, using Cassella - he states that he used the dogs to find the subject grave for his paper that some of you read, but few understood - so check the first test off your list - he finds them reliable enough to be able to assist, nay, find his subject grave site. So irrespective of the legal standing, which is not in contention in this point, we have confirmation that, in Professor Cassella's opinion, the dogs are reliable enough and has witnessed their abilities first hand and endorsed them in the paper and credited Mark Harrison.
Now for the sticky bit - Davil does not attack the premise of admissibility, as the dog alert evidence has been permitted at least once before. No, he has brought a new concept in to the discussion; the concept of whether they should have been allowed. I contend that this is rendered moot, as, surely we are in agreement that, if we use the tenets of UK civil law, precedents are presided over by an appointed judge and this is then the standard thereafter until challenged (e.g. Lord Atkins presiding over the 'snail in the bottle' case of 1932 and for the first time defining 'care for thy neighbour')
If we use the example of the Gilroy case and explore further, yesterday's contention that the prosecution in the case were somehow remiss in their including the dog alert evidence. I would contend that the decision was probably ruminated over for some time, given the admittedly contentious nature of the evidence and the fact that they would be breaking new ground. To suggest that the prosecution team, after months of building a case, would jeopardise it with the introduction of superfluous evidence on a whim is in my opinion plainly incorrect.
More likely, and I say that because I wasn't there, but a reasonable man would be right to assume that they realised that they were building a case purely on circumstantial evidence, therefore the weight  and volume of that evidence was of importance. Combine that with their failure to get the silver bullet of definitive CCTV footage of Susan Pilley entering her work, they knew that more was more.
As with all evidence, as I discussed yesterday, they have to apply the three tests of relevance; admissibility; and weight. This evidence is presented at pre-trial and disclosed to the other side (rules of disclosure: Disclosure is providing the defence with copies or access to all material that is capable of undermining the prosecution case and/or assisting the defence.) There's no doubt, in my most humble opinion, that both sides looked upon the dog alert evidence in total contrast - the prosecution would have laid out their case for admissibility and presented as such, hoping to add further weight of 'overwhelming' circumstantial evidence to sway the jury. The defence would, in all likelihood, have not contended its admissibility as perhaps they saw it as shaky ground. Bearing in mind the quality and veracity of the defence team is not a factor here.

So, in summary, yes, Cassella likes the dogs and is happy to use their services and has first hand accounts of them being successful.
Yes, dog evidence has been used, successfully (to date).
The concept of whether they should have been used, irrespective of the opinion of great scientific luminaries (not legal), is rendered irrelevant, because they have. If convicted murderer David Gilroy would like to employ the services of Professor Cassella at his next appeal to repeat his assertion that, in this instance, they should not have been admitted, then he should reach out. I would rather suggest that a man who spent a lifetime trying to assist in furthering post mortem science and thereby assisting law enforcement, would baulk at such a suggestion.

To suggest others don't understand something uis rather foolish when imo its you who clearly doesn't understand...let me explain.

First..you seem to claim the dogs are reliable....reliable at what....again let me explain.

The dogs ARE reliable at finding cadaver odour...no question about that. That's why cassellla uses them for what tehy are trained for. To detect physically recoverable traces of cadaver..grime concurs that this is what he tarins the dogs to do. So no problem with Cassella using them for what they are trained for.

second...are the alerts reliable...ie ...a reliable indicator of cadaver contaminent...the answer is no...that's why there alerts are deemed inadmissible.

You then go on to claim that because the prosecution presents them...they must be admissible...this shows you clearly don't understand. Im sure there are many many incidents of prosecution presented evidence which is not admitted...not admitted when its challenged ….In the Gilroy case it appears it wasn't challenged and ive supplied evidence that had it been challenged it would have been thrown out..

I think its very clear who understands and who doesnt
« Last Edit: February 25, 2020, 10:58:31 AM by Brietta »

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Dog Alerts- Evidence or not?
« Reply #612 on: February 25, 2020, 09:49:44 AM »
Who's excusing what? I'm pointing out that 'evidence' has evolved over time and will continue to do so.
What is admissible today would have seemed science fiction in the past, or, dare I say it, witchcraft.
And you're generalising again. I'm discussing the Gilroy case independently, exploring the concept of establishment of precedent (albeit criminal as opposed to civil) and Davros' assertion that the evidence should not have been permitted. Just because Cassella, a scientist, states that opinion, doesn't and didn't make any difference.
The concept of reliability is for another day.

What you need to understand is it's not just Cassella questioning their reliability...it's just about everyone who matters...read Grimes statement

Cassella happens to be a professor of forensic science who wrote the introduction to Grimes white paper...to dismiss his opinion is to dismiss the truth
« Last Edit: February 25, 2020, 09:56:37 AM by Davel »

Offline The General

Re: Dog Alerts- Evidence or not?
« Reply #613 on: February 25, 2020, 10:02:16 AM »
To suggest others don't understand something uis rather foolish when imo its you who clearly doesn't understand...let me explain.

First..you seem to claim the dogs are reliable....reliable at what....again let me explain.

The dogs ARE reliable at finding cadaver odour...no question about that. That's why cassellla uses them for what tehy are trained for. To detect physically recoverable traces of cadaver..grime concurs that this is what he tarins the dogs to do. So no problem with Cassella using them for what they are trained for.

second...are the alerts reliable...ie ...a reliable indicator of cadaver contaminent...the answer is no...that's why there alerts are deemed inadmissible.

You then go on to claim that because the prosecution presents them...they must be admissible...this shows you clearly don't understand. Im sure there are many many incidents of prosecution presented evidence which is not admitted...not admitted when its challenged ….In the Gilroy case it appears it wasn't challenged and ive supplied evidence that had it been challenged it would have been thrown out..

I think its very clear who understands and who doesnt
You stated that I don't understand about 6 times there, a record even for you who's mantra is 'you don't understand'.
Once again, they are admissible, because they have been admissible. Whether it's a mistake, or an oversight, or Mr. Spock himself finds it illogical, or you simply don't think so......they have been admissible.
Moreover, they will become commonplace, contrary to the naysayers and Luddites, not only because 'testing' will be enhanced, but training will progress, utilising AI and other technological advances.

I love how you take offence at 'don't understand', as if it's an affront to your supposed intellect, yet when you cough and hack it out with impunity it's apparently not an affront at all, merely a statement of fact.

However, you don't understand. Your lack of understanding is laughable, to coin your phrase.

The 2nd Youngest Member of the Forum

Offline The General

Re: Dog Alerts- Evidence or not?
« Reply #614 on: February 25, 2020, 10:05:09 AM »
What you need to understand is it's not just Cassella questioning their reliability...it's just about everyone who matters...read Grimes statement

Cassella happens to be a professor of forensic science who wrote the introduction to Grimes white paper...to dismiss his opinion is to dismiss the truth
And this.........'just about everyone else who matters'. What is that? That's the sort of comment a primary school kid would spout in a temper......'yeh well, everyone hates you, we had a vote!'.
Feel free to provide a list of 'everyone else' by way of a cite, not including Joey Essex or Barry off Eastenders.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2020, 11:48:06 AM by Admin »
The 2nd Youngest Member of the Forum