Dog Alerts- Evidence or not?

[Mr Gray]

No... new analysis on the DNA data!

as ive said...they could rule Breukners DNA  out without perlin

[Billy Whizz Fan Club]

Apart from how much cash? 

He's offered to do it for free.... Next excuse?

[misty]

He's offered to do it for free.... Next excuse?

Neither Eddie nor Keela alerted where Swabs 3A & 3B were lifted from. What evidential value would they hold for the investigators as DNA can be found anywhere & everywhere?
It may help you to read the following scientific article to understand that the more contributors there are to a sample the lower the probability of a match (notwithstanding the sample was degraded in certain sections)
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/1556-4029.14204

[Billy Whizz Fan Club]

as ive said...they could rule Breukners DNA  out without perlin

From the DNA on swab 3a? That depends on how many markers CB shares with the three (or more) contributors.

[Billy Whizz Fan Club]

Neither Eddie nor Keela alerted where Swabs 3A & 3B were lifted from. What evidential value would they hold for the investigators as DNA can be found anywhere & everywhere?
It may help you to read the following scientific article to understand that the more contributors there are to a sample the lower the probability of a match (notwithstanding the sample was degraded in certain sections)
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/1556-4029.14204

I've seen that link - but thank you. You do realise that Dr Perlin is one of the authors of that journal article don't you?

[Billy Whizz Fan Club]

Neither Eddie nor Keela alerted where Swabs 3A & 3B were lifted from.

Yes they did!!

Eddie....

"The EVRD alerted in the:
Rear bedroom of the apartment in the immediate right hand corner by
the door.
Living room, behind sofa.
Veranda outside parent's bedroom.
Garden area directly under veranda.
My observation of the dog's behaviour in this instance was that the dog's
behaviour changed immediately upon opening the front door to the apartment.
He will normally remain in the sit position until released and tasked to search.
On this occasion he broke the stay and entered the apartment with an above
average interest. His behaviour was such that I believed him to be 'in scent'
and I therefore allowed him to free search without direction to allow him to
identify the source of his interest. He did so alerting in the rear bedroom.

I released him from this and tasked him to continue to search. He did so
alerting in an area to the rear of the sofa in the lounge."

Keela.... (in the same area behind the sofa)

"After the recovery of the four tiles and the skirting board the dog specialised in the detection of traces of human blood was put into the area from where the tiles had been recovered, the English police officer who coordinated the movement of the dog, Martin Grime, having informed the undersigned that they should proceed with the recovery of another piece of tile that was close to the area from where the tile identified as number 1 had been lifted, that terminating the recovery of the tiles signalled by the dog. As requested the undersigned performed the lifting of and the recovery of the piece of tile indicated."

[misty]

I've seen that link - but thank you. You do realise that Dr Perlin is one of the authors of that journal article don't you?

Yes, I do. Maybe it will help you understand his acceptance of his own software's limitations.

[misty]

Yes they did!!

Eddie....

"The EVRD alerted in the:
Rear bedroom of the apartment in the immediate right hand corner by
the door.
Living room, behind sofa.
Veranda outside parent's bedroom.
Garden area directly under veranda.
My observation of the dog's behaviour in this instance was that the dog's
behaviour changed immediately upon opening the front door to the apartment.
He will normally remain in the sit position until released and tasked to search.
On this occasion he broke the stay and entered the apartment with an above
average interest. His behaviour was such that I believed him to be 'in scent'
and I therefore allowed him to free search without direction to allow him to
identify the source of his interest. He did so alerting in the rear bedroom.

I released him from this and tasked him to continue to search. He did so
alerting in an area to the rear of the sofa in the lounge."

Keela.... (in the same area behind the sofa)

"After the recovery of the four tiles and the skirting board the dog specialised in the detection of traces of human blood was put into the area from where the tiles had been recovered, the English police officer who coordinated the movement of the dog, Martin Grime, having informed the undersigned that they should proceed with the recovery of another piece of tile that was close to the area from where the tile identified as number 1 had been lifted, that terminating the recovery of the tiles signalled by the dog. As requested the undersigned performed the lifting of and the recovery of the piece of tile indicated."

Please see the pic below which shows where swabs 3a & 3b were taken from. As previously requested, would you supply the link to the section in the dogs video where either dog alerts to that spot.




[attachment deleted by admin]

[Billy Whizz Fan Club]

Yes, I do. Maybe it will help you understand his acceptance of his own software's limitations.

He's honest about the limitations of his own software - which is a good thing..... He writes about it scientifically in a research article in the JFS.... and he's also stated that he is confident he can separate out the contributors of the DNA in the MM case.

"This validation study examined the reliability of TrueAllele computing on laboratory‐generated DNA mixtures containing up to ten unknown contributors. Using log(LR) match information, the study measured sensitivity, specificity, and reproducibility. These reliability metrics were assessed under different conditions, including varying the number of assumed contributors, statistical sampling duration, and setting known genotypes. The main determiner of match information and variability was how much DNA a person contributed to a mixture. Observed contributor number based on data peaks gave better results than the number known from experimental design. The study found that TrueAllele is a reliable method for analyzing DNA mixtures containing up to ten unknown contributors.[/b][/u]"

[Billy Whizz Fan Club]

Please see the pic below which shows where swabs 3a & 3b were taken from. As previously requested, would you supply the link to the section in the dogs video where either dog alerts to that spot.

Both dogs alerted behind the sofa....... read the report it is clear that the specific tiles lifted were in the areas where Keela alerted.... The forensic scientists use the dog alerts to examine certain areas.... do you honestly believe they decided to lift random tiles in other areas and just happened to find human cellular material that also happened to show "low level indications of DNA from more than one person. However, all of the confirmed DNA components within this result match the corresponding components in the DNA profile of Madeline McCann."

[misty]

That area is behind the sofa. Both dogs alerted behind the sofa....... read the report it is clear that the specific tiles lifted were in the areas where Keela alerted.... The forensic scientists use the dog alerts to examine certain areas.... do you honestly believe they decided to lift random tiles in other areas and just happened to find human cellular material that also happened to show "low level indications of DNA from more than one person. However, all of the confirmed DNA components within this result match the corresponding components in the DNA profile of Madeline McCann."

Swab 3a was taken from the corner, not where Keela or Keela  alerted behind the sofa. It is marked on the PJ photograph.


https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PORTUGUESE-FORENSIC.htm
12_VOLUME_XIIa_Page_3225
Processos Vol XII
Pages 3224 - 3225 (in English)

Delivery Guide 286 A - 2007

Delivery Guide of Recovered Evidences at the Crime Scene

In order to carry out the determined by the 4th Brigade of the PJ Criminal Investigation Department, concerning to process number 201/07 Galgs, between 15.00 of August 4th 2007 and 06.30 of August 5th 2007, were recovered the following evidences in the living room of the apartment 5 A. Ocean Club villas, Praia da Luz, Lagos, Portugal, where is possible may had occurred a crime of homicide, by the Crime Scene Investigators Fernando Jose da Silva Viegas and Bruno Jorge Possidonio Mendes Atunes:

1A. Stain on the floor recovered with a dry swab.
1B. Stain on the floor recovered with swab, with distilled water.
2A. Stain on the floor recovered with a dry swab.
2B. Stain on the floor recovered with a swab, with distilled water.
3A. Stain on the floor recovered with a dry swab.
3B. Stain on the floor recovered with a swab, with distilled water..........

If neither dog alerted to that spot, meaning that there was no blood or cadaver odour in that corner, then what bearing would Perlin's DNA data re-analysis of an unidentified body fluid have on an investigation into potential death?

[Billy Whizz Fan Club]

Swab 3a was taken from the corner, not where Keela or Keela  alerted behind the sofa. It is marked on the PJ photograph.


https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PORTUGUESE-FORENSIC.htm
12_VOLUME_XIIa_Page_3225
Processos Vol XII
Pages 3224 - 3225 (in English)

Delivery Guide 286 A - 2007

Delivery Guide of Recovered Evidences at the Crime Scene

In order to carry out the determined by the 4th Brigade of the PJ Criminal Investigation Department, concerning to process number 201/07 Galgs, between 15.00 of August 4th 2007 and 06.30 of August 5th 2007, were recovered the following evidences in the living room of the apartment 5 A. Ocean Club villas, Praia da Luz, Lagos, Portugal, where is possible may had occurred a crime of homicide, by the Crime Scene Investigators Fernando Jose da Silva Viegas and Bruno Jorge Possidonio Mendes Atunes:

1A. Stain on the floor recovered with a dry swab.
1B. Stain on the floor recovered with swab, with distilled water.
2A. Stain on the floor recovered with a dry swab.
2B. Stain on the floor recovered with a swab, with distilled water.
3A. Stain on the floor recovered with a dry swab.
3B. Stain on the floor recovered with a swab, with distilled water..........

If neither dog alerted to that spot, meaning that there was no blood or cadaver odour in that corner, then what bearing would Perlin's DNA data re-analysis of an unidentified body fluid have on an investigation into potential death?

That photo isn't in your link as far as I can see. Nothing you've posted from the PJ files contradicts what I am saying, nor says anything about swab 3a coming from the corner. Swab 3A was taken from under the removed floor tiles. The dog alerts were used to pinpoint the locations where material of interest can be found i.e. under the floor tiles behind the sofa where both dogs alerted. Here's the photo from the files:

[Venturi Swirl]

He's offered to do it for free.... Next excuse?

Do you have a cite?

[Brietta]

That photo isn't in your link as far as I can see. Nothing you've posted from the PJ files contradicts what I am saying, nor says anything about swab 3a coming from the corner. Swab 3A was taken from under the removed floor tiles. The dog alerts were used to pinpoint the locations where material of interest can be found i.e. under the floor tiles behind the sofa where both dogs alerted. Here's the photo from the files:

Are you really telling me you haven't read the files where you will find it written in words of one syllable exactly whose blood it is that was found under the tiles?

[misty]

That photo isn't in your link as far as I can see. Nothing you've posted from the PJ files contradicts what I am saying, nor says anything about swab 3a coming from the corner. Swab 3A was taken from under the removed floor tiles. The dog alerts were used to pinpoint the locations where material of interest can be found i.e. under the floor tiles behind the sofa where both dogs alerted. Here's the photo from the files:

The pic is under the typed post. Swab 3A came from the floor surface, not under the tiles.