Author Topic: Dog Alerts- Evidence or not?  (Read 170905 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Dog Alerts- Evidence or not?
« Reply #1785 on: July 25, 2020, 09:03:43 PM »
I think we can safely state that he is preeminent in his field and his advice  / talents / dogs are much sought after.

yes ..hes a well decent dog handler..

Offline The General

Re: Dog Alerts- Evidence or not?
« Reply #1786 on: July 25, 2020, 09:04:15 PM »
yes ..hes a well decent dog handler..
Indeed.
The 2nd Youngest Member of the Forum

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Dog Alerts- Evidence or not?
« Reply #1787 on: July 25, 2020, 09:08:50 PM »
I think we can safely state that he is preeminent in his field and his advice  / talents / dogs are much sought after.
He definitely tried to make it more scientific.   Davel must be able to remember the so called "white paper" he authored.
Moderation
John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Dog Alerts- Evidence or not?
« Reply #1788 on: July 25, 2020, 09:10:48 PM »
He definitely tried to make it more scientific.   Davel must be able to remember the so called "white paper" he authored.

hes trying...the white paper was merely a summation of the present position...no proper science yet

Offline The General

Re: Dog Alerts- Evidence or not?
« Reply #1789 on: July 25, 2020, 09:14:37 PM »
hes trying...the white paper was merely a summation of the present position...no proper science yet
He published something around March for the university he's affiliated to.
I'm looking now.
The 2nd Youngest Member of the Forum

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Dog Alerts- Evidence or not?
« Reply #1790 on: July 25, 2020, 09:18:42 PM »
He published something around March for the university he's affiliated to.
I'm looking now.


thanks... I would like to see it

Offline The General

Re: Dog Alerts- Evidence or not?
« Reply #1791 on: July 25, 2020, 09:28:38 PM »

thanks... I would like to see it
It's behind a paywall.
Here's the preamble: https://sp.lyellcollection.org/content/early/2019/10/25/SP492-2017-337.abstract

...the dogs showed 'interest' prior to the grave being discovered - at 150ppb!
The 2nd Youngest Member of the Forum

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Dog Alerts- Evidence or not?
« Reply #1792 on: July 25, 2020, 09:38:46 PM »
It's behind a paywall.
Here's the preamble: https://sp.lyellcollection.org/content/early/2019/10/25/SP492-2017-337.abstract

...the dogs showed 'interest' prior to the grave being discovered - at 150ppb!
Thanks.. I've already said if there's a body the dogs will find it...as they did here

Offline The General

Re: Dog Alerts- Evidence or not?
« Reply #1793 on: July 25, 2020, 09:43:58 PM »
Thanks.. I've already said if there's a body the dogs will find it...as they did here
This isn't the one I was referring to, but it similar and may even be the same case.
But Dr. Casella, probably the preeminent scientist in this and associated fields, is happy to endorse the use of cadaver dogs as a viable method to detect cadaverine / putriscine (at minuscule levels), in criminal and subsequent forensic investigations - i.e. by definition, he's endorsing the method as scientifically robust - the dogs are trained in various ways, using various substances as a suitable facsimile of a cadaver (piglets, et al).
The 2nd Youngest Member of the Forum

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Dog Alerts- Evidence or not?
« Reply #1794 on: July 25, 2020, 09:48:54 PM »
This isn't the one I was referring to, but it similar and may even be the same case.
But Dr. Casella, probably the preeminent scientist in this and associated fields, is happy to endorse the use of cadaver dogs as a viable method to detect cadaverine / putriscine (at minuscule levels), in criminal and subsequent forensic investigations - i.e. by definition, he's endorsing the method as scientifically robust - the dogs are trained in various ways, using various substances as a suitable facsimile of a cadaver (piglets, et al).

I totally agree with everything you have said..but he's not supportive of incorporated alerts being used as evidence

Offline The General

Re: Dog Alerts- Evidence or not?
« Reply #1795 on: July 25, 2020, 09:57:00 PM »
I totally agree with everything you have said..but he's not supportive of incorporated alerts being used as evidence
I agree with that.
But the question then remains, if we discount the premise of 'handler bias / unconscious cues' for the sake of brevity, what in the name of Odin's Raven was Eddie alerting to in 5a, the environs and the underground car park?
The 2nd Youngest Member of the Forum

Offline G-Unit

Re: Dog Alerts- Evidence or not?
« Reply #1796 on: July 25, 2020, 11:10:03 PM »
I totally agree with everything you have said..but he's not supportive of incorporated alerts being used as evidence

Scientists are not qualified to decide what evidence should be presented in court, that's the responsibility of lawyers and judges. Not all evidence is scientific, after all.
Read and abide by the forum rules.
Result = happy posting.
Ignore and break the rules
Result = edits, deletions and unhappiness
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?board=2.0

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Dog Alerts- Evidence or not?
« Reply #1797 on: July 26, 2020, 01:18:32 AM »
From that link discussed above:
"Abstract
Police in the UK received information that a person had been reported as missing. Despite a diligent search and investigation, the person was not found. Several years later police received intelligence giving the location of a grave believed to contain the remains of the person previously reported as missing and now believed to be a victim of homicide. This new information suggested the missing person had been murdered and their remains were buried in a shallow, unmarked grave. Following a systematic search, the murder victim's body was found at a shallow depth, less than 1 m. Following the forensic recovery of the body, soil samples were collected at, beneath the floor of the grave, along the strike of the grave, downslope and upslope. Analysis of the soil samples showed elevated levels of putrescine, at nearly 150 ppb in the soils beneath, downslope and for several metres upslope from the body at localities where detector dogs had showed an ‘interest’ before the grave was discovered. The mineralogical analysis, using integrated automated mineralogy and petrology detected the presence of diagenetic calcite in the soil profile beneath the grave. Additionally, the organic analysis detected the presence of elevated stanols at the grave and down slope."

Some new words for me:
"diagenetic calcite"
"stanols" and "Stanol Ester"

Esters. Esters are polar molecules, but their boiling points are lower than those of carboxylic acids and alcohols of similar molecular weight because there is no intermolecular hydrogen bonding between ester molecules. ... Acids have unpleasant smells, but esters have fruity smells.

"diagenetic calcite"  seems to form during the process of rock formation.  No mention of odour production.

It could be that the cadaver dog smells a combination of cadaverine/putresciene and stanol esters to give a species specificity to their work.



Moderation
John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.

Offline Brietta

Re: Dog Alerts- Evidence or not?
« Reply #1798 on: July 26, 2020, 02:00:49 AM »
From that link discussed above:
"Abstract
Police in the UK received information that a person had been reported as missing. Despite a diligent search and investigation, the person was not found. Several years later police received intelligence giving the location of a grave believed to contain the remains of the person previously reported as missing and now believed to be a victim of homicide. This new information suggested the missing person had been murdered and their remains were buried in a shallow, unmarked grave. Following a systematic search, the murder victim's body was found at a shallow depth, less than 1 m. Following the forensic recovery of the body, soil samples were collected at, beneath the floor of the grave, along the strike of the grave, downslope and upslope. Analysis of the soil samples showed elevated levels of putrescine, at nearly 150 ppb in the soils beneath, downslope and for several metres upslope from the body at localities where detector dogs had showed an ‘interest’ before the grave was discovered. The mineralogical analysis, using integrated automated mineralogy and petrology detected the presence of diagenetic calcite in the soil profile beneath the grave. Additionally, the organic analysis detected the presence of elevated stanols at the grave and down slope."

Some new words for me:
"diagenetic calcite"
"stanols" and "Stanol Ester"

Esters. Esters are polar molecules, but their boiling points are lower than those of carboxylic acids and alcohols of similar molecular weight because there is no intermolecular hydrogen bonding between ester molecules. ... Acids have unpleasant smells, but esters have fruity smells.

"diagenetic calcite"  seems to form during the process of rock formation.  No mention of odour production.

It could be that the cadaver dog smells a combination of cadaverine/putresciene and stanol esters to give a species specificity to their work.

If there is a deceased person present I doubt there is any misconception about what it is the victim recovery dog is homing in on.

The problem arises when there is no obvious reason for a VRD to react.

For example ... one of Eddie's alerts in Jersey was to scattered cremation ashes which, if local knowledge hadn't filled in the gaps would have been yet another mystery with uninformed opinion claiming it signified crime.

If the VRD alerts and no source can be identified (as it was in this instance in Jersey) the only evidence that can be concluded from that is that the dog alerted and whatever caused the alert is unknown unless verified by forensics.

I think it is really so simple I have no idea what all the angst is about particularly when the case against the present prime suspect in Madeleine's disappearance shows the importance of finding real evidence in lawful fairness to the person who might be tried for a crime.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Dog Alerts- Evidence or not?
« Reply #1799 on: July 26, 2020, 02:31:02 AM »
What would happen if you took a VRD into a morgue?   Would you get an alert?  I'd say "of course you would".  So you wouldn't know to which body the VRD was alerting to, past or present.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2020, 11:13:57 AM by Robittybob1 »
Moderation
John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.