Dog Alerts- Evidence or not?

[barrier]

Grime contradicts himself... If you think Wolteers is relying on the alerts you haven't followed what he has said

Its not what he said that matters, I've read on here.

[Mr Gray]

I think it's patently clear none of the cadaver alerts relate to MM and afaiac anyone who thinks they do is living in fantasy  land

[Mr Gray]

Its not what he said that matters, I've read on here.

It's what he has said that matters and if you are relying on what has been posted here for your knowledge of what he has said then you have serious gaps in your knowledge

[G-Unit]

The value of the evidence is

The value of evidence is decided by those who choose which evidence in include in a case.

[Venturi Swirl]

The value of evidence is decided by those who choose which evidence in include in a case.

Do you accept that based on what Grime himself has admitted (in a report he wrote years after the alerts in PdL) that they have no evidential value as Eddie was trained on animal matter?  It’s unlikely that any prosecutor would call him as an expert witness  to stand by those alerts given what he has subsequently written, agreed?

[Icanhandlethetruth]

Do you accept that based on what Grime himself has admitted (in a report he wrote years after the alerts in PdL) that they have no evidential value as Eddie was trained on animal matter?  It’s unlikely that any prosecutor would call him as an expert witness  to stand by those alerts given what he has subsequently written, agreed?

Before we continue this discussion concerning The White Paper written by Martin Grime in 2018 can I ask you, have you read it all? From page 1 to page 187?
Because there is an inherent danger that by cherry picking 2 or 3 sentences from a 187 page document that you may have taken these sentences out of context to confirm a belief that you may hold.

[Venturi Swirl]

Before we continue this discussion concerning The White Paper written by Martin Grime in 2018 can I ask you, have you read it all? From page 1 to page 187?
Because there is an inherent danger that by cherry picking 2 or 3 sentences from a 187 page document that you may have taken these sentences out of context to confirm a belief that you may hold.

I have skim read it up until the part I drew attention to.  If I have misunderstood his meaning feel free to correct me.

[Icanhandlethetruth]

I have skim read it up until the part I drew attention to.  If I have misunderstood his meaning feel free to correct me.

I rather feel you may have. Did you wonder why Mr Grime would want to tarnish all his work in his whole career with a couple of throw away sentences in an obscure white paper? The reason - he doesn't. Who would?
As its late I will try to put it into a clear concise form tomorrow, the white paper does jump around and as you know no copy and paste.

[Venturi Swirl]

I rather feel you may have. Did you wonder why Mr Grime would want to tarnish all his work in his whole career with a couple of throw away sentences in an obscure white paper? The reason - he doesn't. Who would?
As its late I will try to put it into a clear concise form tomorrow, the white paper does jump around and as you know no copy and paste.

I disagree that he tarnishes his entire work with one paragraph, rather he acknowledges the need for training dogs solely on human cadaver scent, not a mixture of human and animal cadaver scent as his earlier dog(s) were, when it comes to the issue of alerts to residual scent with no body present and how they may stand up in court.

[Venturi Swirl]

I don’t know enough about the chemistry to say how long a body would have to lay, I know tests were done with fully grown adults but never I believe with small children. And there was a smell in the car that humans could smell wasn’t there but whether a corpse was there I don’t know.

As far as I can find there has only ever been one published piece of research on this issue which demonstrated that the earliest a dog would alert after death was 85 minutes, however this was atypical (the majority were between 2 and 3 hours) and also the tests were not conducted at a three month interval from the scent being deposited and the dogs alerting.  As this is obviously quite a relevant issue as far as residual scent and dog alerts are concerned, it amazes me that there has apparently not been more research done on it since the late 90s.  What Grime’s alerts to the apt 5a would have you believe is either that Madeleine was dead before the McCanns went out to dinner (which raises one set of implausible scenarios) of that the dog’s nose was so incredibly sensitive that it would detect a very few brief minutes of cadaver odour from three months earlier (with no actual testing or research to back this up as a possible scenario).

[G-Unit]

As far as I can find there has only ever been one published piece of research on this issue which demonstrated that the earliest a dog would alert after death was 85 minutes, however this was atypical (the majority were between 2 and 3 hours) and also the tests were not conducted at a three month interval from the scent being deposited and the dogs alerting.  As this is obviously quite a relevant issue as far as residual scent and dog alerts are concerned, it amazes me that there has apparently not been more research done on it since the late 90s.  What Grime’s alerts to the apt 5a would have you believe is either that Madeleine was dead before the McCanns went out to dinner (which raises one set of implausible scenarios) of that the dog’s nose was so incredibly sensitive that it would detect a very few brief minutes of cadaver odour from three months earlier (with no actual testing or research to back this up as a possible scenario).

If you are referring to this study;
http://www.csst.org/cadaver_scent.html
the dogs were alerting to gauze pads placed onto the abdominal area of bodies for 20 minutes. The study was therefore unable to discover whether the dogs would have alerted earlier to the site where a whole body had lain.

The idea that Madeleine may have died before her parents went to dinner on 3rd May is a possibility, no matter how implausible some find it.

[kizzy]

Think it would have been easier to eliminate the dogs findings.

If they had found nothing at all....like in the rest of the places they searched.

[Venturi Swirl]

If you are referring to this study;
http://www.csst.org/cadaver_scent.html
the dogs were alerting to gauze pads placed onto the abdominal area of bodies for 20 minutes. The study was therefore unable to discover whether the dogs would have alerted earlier to the site where a whole body had lain.

The idea that Madeleine may have died before her parents went to dinner on 3rd May is a possibility, no matter how implausible some find it.

Yes, that’s the study.  Don’t you find it concerning or at least puzzling that in over twenty years there does not appear to have been any follow up research in this matter?  Anything’s a possibility until one examines the rest of the known facts IMO.  You may think you can pull together a plausible and logical theory that centres around the scenario of Madeleine’s earlier death but I don’t think you can.  The fact that no police force has considered it a real possibility surely tells you something?

[Lace]

I don’t know enough about the chemistry to say how long a body would have to lay, I know tests were done with fully grown adults but never I believe with small children. And there was a smell in the car that humans could smell wasn’t there but whether a corpse was there I don’t know.

Yes,  someone said there was an 'unpleasant'. smell in the car due to bags of nappies being stored for the dump.   Though the smell of a corpse wouldn't be 'unpleasant'. it would be pungent ,choking,  unbearable smell after that length of time.

[Mr Gray]

The value of evidence is decided by those who choose which evidence in include in a case.

Think about what you are saying. How do they decide which evidence to include...they have to take advice from the experts. therefore the value of the evidence depends on the evidence taht supports its reliability.......expert witness opinion