Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?

[John]

You claim it's true but cannot supply a source. As far as I remember this has been discussed before and is NOT true
Can you supply a source or is this statement just a myth

It was all reported at the time, do read up on it.

[Carana]

Are these facts?

Or are these points made in Cristavio's (sp?) book?

I don't know if that was in his book or not as I've only read a summary of it in English. However, there was indeed a witness who stated that shoes of that colour had been found at home.

[John]

This alleged initial confession (to a lesser charge) took place before the black and blue bashing session, yes. However, Leandro did state that she'd said she'd been beaten into it. In court he was asked if he'd noticed any bruising on her face or arms at that time, to which he replied that he hadn't.

The confession, the retraction and the attempts to incriminate her brother speak volumes as to the sort of woman we are dealing with when it comes to Leonor Cipriano.  Her lies got her a further perjury conviction which says it all.

[John]

I don't know if that was in his book or not as I've only read a summary of it in English. However, there was indeed a witness who stated that shoes of that colour had been found at home.

Joana's aunt was taken to the family home by the PJ and she identified the shoes which the poor girl normally wore out. If I recall correctly they were found under the settee and had specks of human blood on them.

[Carana]

Yes it is true and that is why the magistrate remanded her in custody while releasing João on bail.  You really need to get past the fact that Leonor confessed to having killed her daughter, later retracted it after Marcos Correia took over the case and then blamed her brother for the killing.

Maybe you also want to bury your head in the sand in respect of the life the girl had in the years prior to her murder?

I haven't found anything to suggest a history of physical abuse.

[Carana]

The confession, the retraction and the attempts to incriminate her brother speak volumes as to the sort of woman we are dealing with when it comes to Leonor Cipriano.  Her lies got her a further perjury conviction which says it all.

They both incriminated the other. To me, that smacks of potential police psychological manipulation.

[John]

They both incriminated the other. To me, that smacks of potential police psychological manipulation.

...or they are both as guilty as each other.   

[John]

I haven't found anything to suggest a history of physical abuse.

Neglect and abandonment.  It was only in the latter stages of her short life that things began to improve for Joana, when Leandro became involved as step father.  Prior to that social services and the schools were involved in attempts to improve Joana's lot.

[Carana]

Joana's aunt was taken to the family home by the PJ and she identified the shoes which the poor girl normally wore out. If I recall correctly they were found under the settee and had specks of human blood on them.

A testemunha BB1 , irmã do II, disse que no domingo, por volta da meia-noite, a mãe referiu-lhe que o II tinha telefonado a saber se a CC estava lá em casa. Declarou a testemunha que a CC tinha estado lá em casa desde 5ª feira até domingo e que era para só ir para casa na 2ª feira, mas como a mãe tinha ido à festa de anos, convenceu-a a ir mais cedo, dizendo que podiam ir ao festival do berbigão e que também lá estava o tio. Saíram por volta das 18h. Na 2ª feira de manhã (dia 13), por volta das 14h, a testemunha foi ver a BB. Em casa estavam também o AA e o II. Nessa altura a BB referiu-lhe como é que a CC estava vestida e calçada quando desapareceu. Mais tarde, a testemunha deparou com os sapatos que a BB tinha dito que a CC tinha calçados e confrontou a BB com isso, tendo ela respondido que então a CC devia ter trocado de sapatos e que tinha levado as chinelas. Porém, posteriormente, a testemunha encontrou uma das chinelas debaixo do sofá da sala e a outra chinela no quarto. Procurou o calçado da CC e encontrou em casa todos os sapatos, sandálias e chinelas que ela usava nesse Verão.


A testemunha CC3 , coordenador de investigação criminal da P.J., declarou que começaram a investigar o caso passados 9 dias do desaparecimento da CC, sendo que o caso estava classificado como crime de sequestro/rapto. Tomou conhecimento das declarações prestadas na GNR e visionou as entrevistas televisivas, estranhando logo a postura da mãe, que vestia de preto e parecia estar a mentir, sendo que falava da filha no passado. Começaram a tomar declarações e decidiram ir examinar a casa da BB. Quando lá chegaram viram que o interior da habitação tinha sido lavado, sendo que tal lavagem contrastava com o desleixo de limpeza e arrumação do resto da casa, mas mesmo assim ainda encontraram vestígios hemáticos no chão, nas paredes, no balde e esfregona e na sola de umas sapatilhas que estavam na sala - a testemunha confirmou o auto de busca e apreensão de fls. 173.

[Carana]

...or they are both as guilty as each other.   

One or the other may be guilty... I've no idea. I can only go by the so-called evidence (or rather the lack of it).

[Carana]

Neglect and abandonment.  It was only in the latter stages of her short life that things began to improve for Joana, when Leandro became involved as step father.  Prior to that social services and the schools were involved in attempts to improve Joana's lot.

Someone (unidentified) did appear to have called social services who went around and found nothing wrong. They admonished the mother for letting the kids eat crackers while waiting for her to cook lunch and archived the case.

The school teacher said she didn't show any signs of mistreatment, except that she sometimes turned up unsuitably dressed for the weather.


ETA: There's this:

The witness SS, psychologist working at the Protection of Minors Commission of Portimão affirmed that the Commission received a Process of Promotion and Protection of minors which as then sent to the Protection of Minors Commission of Lagoa, where it was referred the fact that CC [Joana Cipriano] was given by the mother to an elderly couple, who were alcoholic and had other problems. Meanwhile the mother had picked her up and they now lived in the Portimão area. At that time the mother said that she had left CC with that couple, just for two or three weeks, so that she wouldn’t miss school while she[BB] arranged her school transference. Later on they [the Protection of Minors Commission] received a report from the school describing negligence at the alimentation and hygienic level. In the sequence of that report, in April or May 2004 the witness made a domiciliary visit to CC’s mother house and verified that BB [Leonor Cipriano] was making lunch and that there were clothes put to dry. She went to the school and the teacher told her there were rumours that CC worked too much at home, but that she never saw anything, and that CC was an average student. They spoke with neighbours who said that they saw CC playing. They spoke with CC, who told them that she enjoyed helping her mother with her brothers, And they decided to archive the process.

Was this couple her parents? If so, she left her with them for a couple of weeks while they moved and so she could finish the school year.

Sounds to me like she wanted a better future for her, if anything...

[Carana]

I'm trying to find any indication that anything had been sent to the INML for DNA analysis. Genuine query.
The PJ forensic unit would have been able to distinguish human blood from animal blood or semen from saliva (although they got that wrong on a subsequent case)... but did anything get sent to the INML?

[Mr Gray]

I wondered how Leonor Cipriano managed to endure such a beating...the answers obvious. The beating was to reveal where the body was...she didn't know so she couldn't tell them...she had no knowledge of where Joanna was...if she had she would have told the PJ...She is innocent

[John]

I wondered how Leonor Cipriano managed to endure such a beating...the answers obvious. The beating was to reveal where the body was...she didn't know so she couldn't tell them...she had no knowledge of where Joanna was...if she had she would have told the PJ...She is innocent

Absolute bull Dave.  No matter which Leonor story one chooses to believe it was João who disposed of Joana's remains so not at all surprising that Leonor herself could not identify that location.   As for innocent, that is definitely something she is not.

[Carana]

Absolute bull Dave.  No matter which Leonor story one chooses to believe it was João who disposed of Joana's remains so not at all surprising that Leonor herself could not identify that location.   As for innocent, that is definitely something she is not.

If you set aside the potentially dodgy "reconstruction", what evidence is there that even João was involved in whatever happened to this child?