Makes you wonder how she was transported in to the jungle unaided, given that she was apparently encumbered with infirmity.
I wonder if Nora's parents are still trying to blame the Dusun resort for a faulty window lock.
Makes you wonder how she was transported in to the jungle unaided, given that she was apparently encumbered with infirmity.
I think her parents are over egging her disability.
There are pictures of her standing unaided & obviously she could walk, they didn't push her round in a wheelchair.
The family went for a walk together that evening.
I notice in the article...
"During the night both Meabh, who is Irish and Nora's French father, Sebastien, said they heard "muffled whispering" inside the house but were half asleep so didn't investigate further."
This is the first time I've seen this claimed & so I think they are talking shit.
They just don't want to accept that their daughter was excited to be in a new & stimulating environment & was eager to explore it.
Didn't they say there were no marks on the bottom of her feet? I find it unimaginable that she spent all that time wandering around the Jungle and there were no marks on her feet.
Her feet were dirty but not damaged.
I don't think it impossible she didn't tread on anything sharp.
Yet they say the scratches on her body proved she walked through dense jungle, I find it very strange,
So will you do anything about it, or just tuck it away in your mind as 'strange' ?
The alternative is that someone abducted her in order to neither demand a ransom, sexually assault or harm her in any way, only to leave her alive in the jungle for some reason.
I'm seriously struggling to think of any reason.
The Pathologist said they couldn't rule out sexual assault as the body was too decomposed.
Poor parents will never know what happened to their daughter.
She died of stomach ulcer & starvation.
Verdict Misadventure. No crime committed.
If parents won't accept that, then that is their problem.
What do you suggest Lace does about it?
So will you do anything about it, or just tuck it away in your mind as 'strange' ?
What do you suggest Lace does about it?
It's also the problem of the Dusun resort, since the family are attempting to sue them for having no security & a faulty window lock.
Her feet were dirty but not damaged.Personally and speaking from experience I would think it impossible to spend a week barefoot in jungle terrain and not receive cuts and bites to your feet.
I don't think it impossible she didn't tread on anything sharp.
Personally and speaking from experience I would think it impossible to spend a week barefoot in jungle terrain and not receive cuts and bites to your feet.
So you're going with 'the abduction for no specific reason' scenario.Unlike you who always claims to know exactly what happened in all these cases from the first minute they are reported, I don't claim to know what happened at all. I have no hard and fast opinion, but I do think there are many unanswered questions in this case. I also think blaming the parents (your speciality), and posting nasty callous observations about them and their daughter, her disabilities etc is seriously unpleasant but I would expect nothing else from you, and some of your fellow sceptics.
I don't blame you, they tend to happen quite frequently.
Personally and speaking from experience I would think it impossible to spend a week barefoot in jungle terrain and not receive cuts and bites to your feet.
Try walking through a rainforest in Thailand, Leeches, huge ants all sorts. She was lucky she didn't come upon a snake or a spider.
Unlike you who always claims to know exactly what happened in all these cases from the first minute they are reported, I don't claim to know what happened at all. I have no hard and fast opinion, but I do think there are many unanswered questions in this case. I also think blaming the parents (your speciality), and posting nasty callous observations about them and their daughter, her disabilities etc is seriously unpleasant but I would expect nothing else from you, and some of your fellow sceptics.
It's not very kind or compassionate of the parents to sue the resort in my opinion.
It's not very kind or compassionate of the parents to sue the resort in my opinion.This is just deflective whataboutery, the fact that you would equate legal action taken against a potentially negligent resort with the callous and unkind online comments about a dead disabled child and her parents. If the legal action is successful then that is because the resort will have been found to be negligent in some way - do you not think that companies that have a duty of care to their clients should be punished if they are found to have failed in some way?
This is just deflective whataboutery, the fact that you would equate legal action taken against a potentially negligent resort with the callous and unkind online comments about a dead disabled child and her parents. If the legal action is successful then that is because the resort will have been found to be negligent in some way - do you not think that companies that have a duty of care to their clients should be punished if they are found to have failed in some way?Only if they had failed in a grossly negligent way.
This is just deflective whataboutery, the fact that you would equate legal action taken against a potentially negligent resort with the callous and unkind online comments about a dead disabled child and her parents. If the legal action is successful then that is because the resort will have been found to be negligent in some way - do you not think that companies that have a duty of care to their clients should be punished if they are found to have failed in some way?
How many other people died over the years that they've been open as a result of their lack of security guards & a poor attention to window latch maintenance?It doesn't work like that. How many people in the UK died in a tower block fire as a result of the cladding used on Grenfell prior to that tragedy? How many children died as a result of a faulty boiler at the Thomas Cook resort prior to the deaths of two young children in Corfu? I do wish you'd grow up, though I now realise you do have mental problems which may make this impossible, so you have my sympathies.
None?
Well, that obviously wasn't the problem then.
I fancy this would be considered goading if aimed towards Sadie and her mental issues.
Okay, Fine. I shall look more carefully at Spammy's Comments from now on. So far I have tried not to take them too seriously, but they are all Goading.
First take the plank out of your own eye - or at least that of VS.
Careful. This Thread is a waste of space on The McCann Forum.
First take the plank out of your own eye - or at least that of VS.
I think the thread is endeavouring to have the effect it was designed to achieve and failing miserably. I cannot tell you how hilarious I am finding the efforts of our self acclaimed wind up merchant to fail miserably as it winds only itself up to more and more "outrageous" outrageousness.
NOBODY bothers any more ~ not even deleting the ordure which has become so boringly twee. It is just so ineffectual is it even worth the bother? although I might be forced into it just to spare the blushes of a wum which has most definitely shot its bolt😜
Verdict Misadventure. No crime committed.
If parents won't accept that, then that is their problem.
They won't accept it because like the McCanns, they were responsible for the child and failed her. They're lucky not be pursued for child neglect.One can always rely on Angelo to add to the suffering of grieving parents. So if you fall asleep in the same house as your child and he or she goes missing that’s child neglect now is it?
One can always rely on Angelo to add to the suffering of grieving parents. So if you fall asleep in the same house as your child and he or she goes missing that’s child neglect now is it?
One can always rely on Angelo to add to the suffering of grieving parents. So if you fall asleep in the same house as your child and he or she goes missing that’s child neglect now is it?
They won't accept it because like the McCanns, they were responsible for the child and failed her. They're lucky not be pursued for child neglect.
Yup ... hate repeating myself ... but that is exactly the sort of post the originator of the thread was looking for.
Yup...she was right. I was intending to start one but she beat me to the draw. It will have to be moved to another board.
A child with severe learning difficulties in a third world country and she is allowed to wander off at night... unbelievably irresponsible in anyone's book. I'm not surprised they have attempted to shift the blame from day one.Malaysia is not a third world country, but it does have its share of people with severe physical and learning difficulties like all countries. Should their parents chain them to their beds do you think? In what way do you think the Quoirins facilitated their daughter’s wandering off into the night? By not locking her up in an institution in Britain perhaps?
Attempting to blame the resort and suing them was low and despicable imo.
Careful. This Thread is a waste of space on The McCann Forum.Gives us something to do until HCW speaks up.
Gives us something to do until HCW speaks up.
Gives us something to do until HCW speaks up.I don' think this thread will last that long
PRESS RELEASE - NÓRA QUOIRIN – FAMILY RESPOND TO INQUEST VERDICT
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
The family of Nóra Quoirin, whose body was tragically found in Malaysia after disappearing from the family holiday resort in August 2019, today released the following statement after the Malaysian Coroner delivered their verdict.
They said;
Today is a significant day in the fight for justice for our beloved Nóra. Our legal team has worked tirelessly, against all odds, to bring the truth to light in a case previously declared as NFA (no further action).
We have fought for this Inquest because while the medical cause of Nóra’s death was never in question, it was crucial to establish, insofar as is possible, how Nóra came about her death. We wanted to truly understand the full extent of Malaysian police SAR & criminal missions but also to ensure Nóra’s story was fully expressed.
We wish to communicate that our lawyers asked the Coroner to return an Open Verdict. For clarity – this is “a verdict in its own right, indicating that the evidence is insufficient to satisfy any other conclusions. { } In other cases there may be a suspicion that foul play is involved but no proof to the required level.”
We still believe this is the only appropriate verdict because, throughout the testimonies presented in this case, layers of (professional) evidence have confirmed what we always believed – that Nóra was abducted. These layers include:
-an opened window, with unidentified foreign prints found on the outside, that has not and cannot be, explained by any other means. As we have repeatedly (ourselves, and professionals who knew Nóra intimately) testified – Nóra had neither the cognitive, nor physical means to leave our chalet by the window
-hundreds of volunteers and significant numbers of highly trained personnel searched relentlessly the surrounding area, including where Nóra was found, on the day of or immediately preceding the day of her death. They found no signs of human life
-professionally trained canines were unable to follow Nóra’s scent
-there is much lost DNA evidence including that which was due to the time lapse between Nóra’s death and her being found, her exposure to the elements and the fact that she was found in water
-there remains the possibility of sexual assault (excepting violent assault)
-Nóra’s highly submissive nature rules out any signs of a struggle
-the lack of major physical damage to Nóra’s body despite her inability to handle terrain as complex as the Seremban jungle and, as a related point, Nóra’s total fear of leaving any familiar adult or surroundings
In any major case of conscience, such as this, there always comes a point when it is important to do what is right, not what is easy. We have always recognised that there was no physical evidence to aid our Inquest. Nonetheless, we are utterly disappointed by the Coroner’s verdict of misadventure. We witnessed 80 slides presented to the court today, none of which engaged with who Nóra really was – neither her personality nor her intellectual abilities. The verdict focused exclusively on physical evidence and physical mobility – which we believe, presents a very incomplete/select theory on how Nóra came about her death.
The Coroner made mention several times of her inability to rule on certain points due to not knowing Nóra enough. It is indeed our view that to know Nóra would be to know that she was simply incapable of hiding in undergrowth, climbing out a window and/or making her way out of a fenced resort in the darkness unclothed (all of which were presented today as probable theory).
Once again we see that justice struggles to support the most vulnerable in society – only engaging with special needs at a surface level – and not at the level that truly reflects children like Nóra.
We believe we have fought not just for Nóra but in honour of all the special needs children in this world who deserve our most committed support and the most careful application of justice. This is Nóra’s unique legacy and we will never let it go.”
The charity for British nationals in crisis overseas, LBT Global, has been supporting the family since Nóra’s disappearance and continues to do so. The charity’s Chief Executive, Matthew Searle MBE, said;
“This is a hugely disappointing day for the family. It is clear that Nóra could not have physically carried out the movements suggested. It is crucial that to deliver a comprehensive verdict the coroner would have to have fully taken into account Nora’s condition – that they did so is not immediately apparent. We will support the family tirelessly as they move forward.”
ENDS
Malaysia is not a third world country, but it does have its share of people with severe physical and learning difficulties like all countries. Should their parents chain them to their beds do you think? In what way do you think the Quoirins facilitated their daughter’s wandering off into the night? By not locking her up in an institution in Britain perhaps?
Obviously not clear to the Coroner who delivered the judgement.
LBT Global did not know Nora so their opinion is just that- opinion.
I agree, another load of bollocks. The parents downplayed Nora's abilities and that is suspicion in itself imo.
Your post quite obviously reflects that you have had the very good fortune never to have had to love, care and worry for a severely disabled child so are in blissful ignorant of what that entails.
Nora's family do not deserve your unkindness and what I think skims very close to libelling them.
Your post quite obviously reflects that you have had the very good fortune never to have had to love, care and worry for a severely disabled child so are in blissful ignorant of what that entails.
Nora's family do not deserve your unkindness and what I think skims very close to libelling them.
The whole thing stinks to high heaven imo and now they won't even accept the coroner's verdict.
Heaven forbid that parents should attempt to love and care for their own disabled children. It shouldn't be allowed.
in asia they dont messs around with the law this is OT but if caught with drugs in asia you can get the death penetly even pot etc
The hateful discrimination this thread has opened is shocking.
Nora's parents endeavoured to give their profoundly disabled daughter as normal and happy a life as they possibly could.
That involved her sharing family life including holidays ~ the fact that she was obviously able to do so is testament what a wonderful job the family had devoted to that inclusiveness.
Obviously not clear to the Coroner who delivered the judgement.Their opinion is based on what her parents said, does that count for nothing?
LBT Global did not know Nora so their opinion is just that- opinion.
At least she would still be alive nowWhat sort of life is permanent incarceration in an institution?
I agree, another load of bollocks. The parents downplayed Nora's abilities and that is suspicion in itself imo.How do you know they downplayed her abilities? If they lied then this would be known by all Nora’s family, friends, teachers, doctors etc. Do you REALLY think her parents would be that stupid?
You do know the mother didn't even travel to Malaysia with Nora?So what?
You do know the mother didn't even travel to Malaysia with Nora?
How do you know they downplayed her abilities? If they lied then this would be known by all Nora’s family, friends, teachers, doctors etc. Do you REALLY think her parents would be that stupid?
Her parents told the police she could walk no more than 20 feet without assistance from another person, due to problems with her balance.Perhaps she used her luggage (if it was a wheelie case) as a walking / balancing aid?
& Yet......
Superintendenent Besar told the inquest: “Based on footage of the family’s arrival at KLIA, if I am not mistaken, they could be seen heading towards a particular location together to wait for someone to arrive (to pick them up).
“In the footage, the missing person could be seen walking normally with her luggage like anyone of her age”.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12504238/nora-quoirin-cctv-walking-death-jungle-inquest-alive-search/
Perhaps she used her luggage (if it was a wheelie case) as a walking / balancing aid?
Perhaps she used her luggage (if it was a wheelie case) as a walking / balancing aid?
There's no mention anywhere of her ever using walking sticks, a walker or a wheelchair.So the parents are bare-faced liars and all Nora’s family, friends, teachers, therapists and doctors are complicit in the lie, through their silence? Wow.
Maybe she used to take a luggage trolley with her everywhere she went.
"Soon after they arrived on Aug 3, Nora Anne went on a walkabout towards the deer enclosure and returned informing her mother she was attracted to the animals.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/stranger-approached-nora-quoirin-family-22586180
So she walked from Sora House to the deer enclosure, however far that was.
(https://thedusun.com.my/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/FA_DusunMap_v3_170531-copy.jpg)
“Meabh insisted that had Nóra wandered outside she would have frozen on the spot and waited, adding that the teenager had difficulty walking unassisted due to weak core strength and she would tire easily.
These statements were endorsed by Michael Reeves, the head teacher of Nóra's school in Balham, south London, who said the 15-year-old would not have had the confidence to walk off on her own.
He said: "Physically she was one of the most vulnerable pupils in the school, because of her balance issues.
Nóra's gait was quite fragile. She really didn't have the confidence to walk off by herself.
The idea of Nóra climbing over fencing is unimaginable. She might have climbed over something a foot or so high, but no more than that."
Nora clearly had some doubters, but I think she proved she could overcome many obstacles.It is of course quite possible that her family, friends and teachers were not to know exactly how much ground a child with Nora’s disabilities could cover with adrenalin and fear pumping through her viens. It was an extraordinary situation that she would never have been in before. I do think sympathy and understanding are called for, rather than judgey admonishments of grieving parents and sly pisstakes at the expense of a dead disabled child. Of course you would disagree as that’s how you get your kicks.
"Soon after they arrived on Aug 3, Nora Anne went on a walkabout towards the deer enclosure and returned informing her mother she was attracted to the animals.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/stranger-approached-nora-quoirin-family-22586180
So she walked from Sora House to the deer enclosure, however far that was.
(https://thedusun.com.my/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/FA_DusunMap_v3_170531-copy.jpg)
Do tell. What did she do? Stuff Nora in a suitcase?
Perhaps she used her luggage (if it was a wheelie case) as a walking / balancing aid?
So the parents are bare-faced liars and all Nora’s family, friends, teachers, therapists and doctors are complicit in the lie, through their silence? Wow.
Nora was born with the brain disorder holoprosencephaly ~ a big word for a rare congenital brain malformation; I am sure Nora's parents and medical practitioners have a far clearer picture of exactly how her condition affected her daily life than an internet critic and armchair detective.
Nora and her family were the ones living and coping with it on a daily basis.
Always the excuse eh? 🙄Why is that an excuse? It is a possible explanation. Why are you so utterly determined to trash the girl’s parents? What satisfaction do you derive frommdoing so?
The coroner would have had all this information before her yet she still returned the cause of death as misadventure.Then they clearly chose to ignore the views of her family and her teacher, the people best placed to comment on her disability. For someone who moderates the Miscarriage of Justice Forum you don’t half unquestioningly defer to those in judicial authority (but only if they are foreign it seems). Odd, IMO.
I think you need to read up on some background to this case Eleanor. The mother flew to the resort on her own from another country.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yk2n4bWdFqw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yk2n4bWdFqw)
I think you need to read up on some background to this case Eleanor. The mother flew to the resort on her own from another country.
The ruling by the coroner is if course opinion not factIt's now a legal fact.
The ruling by the coroner is if course opinion not factAs verified by the words used, "likely misadventure", "can't rule out sexual assault" etc. I think there were good grounds to record an open verdict, but that is of course just my entirely worthless opinion.
It's now a legal fact.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yk2n4bWdFqw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yk2n4bWdFqw)
Legal fact s can be subject to changeAgreed. But it's now not an opinion as it stands, as you stated, it's a legal fact.
Agreed. But it's now not an opinion as it stands, as you stated, it's a legal fact.
Agreed. But it's now not an opinion as it stands, as you stated, it's a legal fact.So legally speaking what factually happened to Nora Quoirin?
A legal fact doesn't make it a fact...it's an opinion
So legally speaking what factually happened to Nora Quoirin?Whatever the coroner stated as the verdict.
A legal fact doesn't make it a fact...it's an opinionYes it does. It's fact. Even better than that, it's legally accepted.
Whatever the coroner stated as the verdict.
If new information comes to light, then that could be reviewed.
Whatever the coroner stated as the verdict.The coroner stated that the verdict was "most likely misadventure" - that doesn't sound like a fact to me.
If new information comes to light, then that could be reviewed.
The coroner stated that the verdict was "most likely misadventure" - that doesn't sound like a fact to me.It's a verdict. Misadventure; one of several options open to him to deliver.
Yes it does. It's fact. Even better than that, it's legally accepted.
It's a verdict. Misadventure; one of several options open to him to deliver.Most likely.
End of. Fact.
It's a verdict. Misadventure; one of several options open to him to deliver.
End of. Fact.
Being a legal fact doesn't make it a factReally? Maybe you should petition the judiciary to update their historical purview and statutes to align with your skewed outlook.
Most likely.That's the coroner's job, to determine which of the options is most applicable, by weighing which is most likely given the evidence. Once that pronouncement is made, then it becomes a legal fact, that's the primary function of the process, to legally establish cause of death.
Really? Maybe you should petition the judiciary to update their historical purview and statutes to align with your skewed outlook.He's right though. Finding the Birmingham 6 guilty of causing explosions in pubs doesn't make it a fact that they did so.
That's the coroner's job, to determine which of the options is most applicable, by weighing which is most likely given the evidence. Once that pronouncement is made, then it becomes a legal fact, that's the primary function of the process, to legally establish cause of death.I'm not an idiot, but thanks for the recap all the same. I love being lectured to especially by you.
That's the coroner's job, to determine which of the options is most applicable, by weighing which is most likely given the evidence. Once that pronouncement is made, then it becomes a legal fact, that's the primary function of the process, to legally establish cause of death.
I'm not an idiot, but thanks for the recap all the same. I love being lectured to especially by you.Well you did ask:
So legally speaking what factually happened to Nora Quoirin?
Well you did ask:
You're welcome. Glad to be able to educate the uninformed.
Does her verdict make it a legal fact worldwide or only in MalaysiaA Malaysian Coroner? So legal fact in Malaysia.
From someone who doesn't even know the gender of the person delivering the verdict.Always happy to dispense free, accurate legal advice. Bless you.
Always happy to dispense free, accurate legal advice. Bless you.
From someone who doesn't even know the gender of the person delivering the verdict.
Careless. In My Opinion.You're right, I couldn't.
You're right, I couldn't.
Well you did ask:Your lecture was not in response to that question, but still, thank you.
You're welcome. Glad to be able to educate the uninformed.
Your lecture was not in response to that question, but still, thank you.It was in response to subsequent discussion.
Well yes, the gender of the coroner is particularly important, as was amply demonstrated in the case of.....um....errr....You're right. As homosexuality is outlawed in Malaysia she could have been blackmailed into reaching that verdict by shadowy elites who wish to protect Malaysia's reputation as a safe holiday destination. didn't think of that did you?
Do we know if she was a lesbian?
That could change our whole perspective on the events.
Not very good with English either.You're not goading are you by any chance?
You're right. As homosexuality is outlawed in Malaysia she could have been blackmailed into reaching that verdict by shadowy elites who wish to protect Malaysia's reputation as a safe holiday destination. didn't think of that did you?Your grasp of Muslim culture is also flawed if you think that anyone would feel the need to blackmail a woman.
You're not goading are you by any chance?
Your grasp of Muslim culture is also flawed if you think that anyone would feel the need to blackmail a woman.I love it when you go all po-faced and sanctimonious. I lived in Malaysia for years, but thanks for the further education, always much appreciated - and of course I know that corruption just isn't a feature of Malaysian life at all at all at all.
The fact that this female coroner has ascended to such a prestigious position is testament to her tenacity and competence.
I read somewhere yesterday ( don't ask for a cite as I don't have one to hand) that 49 witnesses were heard before a decision was taken.I think the main issue here is that the parents still maintain she was abducted.
I think the main issue here is that the parents still maintain she was abducted.This is the Nora Quorin case, what are you talking about?
It would appear that the evidence, or lack thereof, does not support this opinion.
It's a similar situation with the Nora Quoirin case.
I think the Malaysian authorities have behaved entirely correctly in this case. Both the police and the courts have relied on the evidence available to them. The family had to acknowledge that there was no physical evidence to aid the coroner. They said;I don't know but the headmaster of her school definitely did, and he said she would not have been capable of wandering off. But what does he know, eh? I'm sure those who never knew the girl at all are in a much better position to judge exactly what she was capable of.
“The verdict focused exclusively on physical evidence and physical mobility – which we believe, presents a very incomplete/select theory on how Nora came about her death.”
LBT Global said;
“It is clear that Nora could not have physically carried out the movements suggested.
“It is crucial that to deliver a comprehensive verdict the coroner would have to have fully taken into account Nora’s condition – that they did so is not immediately apparent."
It may be clear to the family that Nora's condition prevented her from doing what it seems she did; leaving the accomodation and wandering off, but it seems they failed to convince the authorities. I wonder if they had medical testimony to support their belief? Did Nora's doctors testify about her physical capabilities?
https://www.thenational.scot/news/uk-news/18984097.nora-quoirin-inquest---family-disappointed-verdict/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yk2n4bWdFqw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yk2n4bWdFqw)
This is the Nora Quorin case, what are you talking about?[snaps rod and reels in frantically.....wwwwzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.....YOINK]
The facts:It we be more surprising if they weren't approached by a stranger at KL.
THE day before Nóra Quoirin went missing from her family's holiday villa in Malaysia she was approached by a stranger at Kuala Lumpur international airport, an inquest heard.
The 15-year-old's naked body was discovered after a 10-day police search.
An inquest heard her dad Sebastien had left Nóra and her two younger siblings unaccompanied for less than five minutes while he met their mum, Meabh, who had flown in separately from Singapore after a business trip.
He arrived with the children on August 3 after flying from London and a police officer told the inquest Mr Quoirin moved just 30 steps away to meet her at the arrival gate, leaving Nóra and her siblings, aged 12 and eight, alone "for less than five minutes".
The three siblings standing alone were approached by an unknown male, but the children ignored his approaches having been warned "not to speak to strangers".
https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2020/08/28/news/stranger-apporached-nora-quoirin-day-before-disappearance-from-family-s-malaysian-holiday-villa-2049620/
I read somewhere yesterday ( don't ask for a cite as I don't have one to hand) that 49 witnesses were heard before a decision was taken.
Just in case someone wants to be a pain in the buttocks,
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/nora-quoirin-inquest-verdict-expected-within-a-month-39849921.html
6th paragraph down.
I don't know but the headmaster of her school definitely did, and he said she would not have been capable of wandering off. But what does he know, eh? I'm sure those who never knew the girl at all are in a much better position to judge exactly what she was capable of.I'm actually of the opinion that there's more to it than just simple wandering off. What that is I've no idea.
I don't know but the headmaster of her school definitely did, and he said she would not have been capable of wandering off. But what does he know, eh? I'm sure those who never knew the girl at all are in a much better position to judge exactly what she was capable of.
Thank you jassi. The way some people here are posting one would think the coroner made up her findings just for fun...how pathetic.Having read that it looks to have been a competent, robust process, which delivered an honest verdict.
She wasn't at school though was she? Nora was in an environment which amazed her, she was in awe of everything and that alone was the beginning of the end for her. It's just very unfortunate that the searchers chose to prioritise other areas nearer the camp because of the information the parents provided to them.Good point. If they're looking for someone with mental and physical impediments, then of course they're going to limit the search area to her likely sphere of travel.
I love it when you go all po-faced and sanctimonious. I lived in Malaysia for years, but thanks for the further education, always much appreciated - and of course I know that corruption just isn't a feature of Malaysian life at all at all at all.
I don't think The General is interested in personal knowledge. Or the fact that women weren't largely subjected to head coverings in my day. They can please themselves although I don't think they actually do. Please themselves that is.I'm deeply interested in personal knowledge, but it must be revealed for it to be subsumed.
I don't know but the headmaster of her school definitely did, and he said she would not have been capable of wandering off. But what does he know, eh? I'm sure those who never knew the girl at all are in a much better position to judge exactly what she was capable of.
Having read that it looks to have been a competent, robust process, which delivered an honest verdict.
Again, I'm not sure I totally agree, but then I know very little about the case, so am in no position to judge.
I do know the jungle is an unforgiving hell. You don't have to stray too far from the beaten path to find yourself irredeemably and hopelessly lost, even during the day.
Maybe not so much on a resort.
Nora, apparently, left the resort and entered the surrounding jungle.At night? 15 metres in and you're lucky if you can discern any visible light. How far did away was she found (I should really read all this I suppose).
I'm deeply interested in personal knowledge, but it must be revealed for it to be subsumed.
She wasn't at school though was she? Nora was in an environment which amazed her, she was in awe of everything and that alone was the beginning of the end for her. It's just very unfortunate that the searchers chose to prioritise other areas nearer the camp because of the information the parents provided to them.It's almost as if you knew the child personally and were with her at the time - incredible. You are completely contradicting yourself by the way - her parents "insisted" she was kidnapped, so why would that mean searchers would prioritise areas nearer the camp based on what the parents told them? You're making no sense at all.
If the parents of a missing child insist that their child cannot go far unaccompanied then you don't look for them a mile away, you concentrate your resources nearby.
A doctor, and preferably a consultant would have carried weight as an expert witness. He or she could have testified that it was impossible for Nora to walk and climb. The parents and her teacher could only testify as to what they believed was impossible for her. I'm surprised no expert testimony was offered.Have you read the full court transcript then? A doctor could also only offer an opinion, same as parents and teachers, however it seems that the opinions of those who never knew the child at all have taken precedence.
She wasn't at school though was she? Nora was in an environment which amazed her, she was in awe of everything and that alone was the beginning of the end for her. It's just very unfortunate that the searchers chose to prioritise other areas nearer the camp because of the information the parents provided to them.
If the parents of a missing child insist that their child cannot go far unaccompanied then you don't look for them a mile away, you concentrate your resources nearby.
It's almost as if you knew the child personally and were with her at the time - incredible. You are completely contradicting yourself by the way - her parents "insisted" she was kidnapped, so why would that mean searchers would prioritise areas nearer the camp based on what the parents told them? You're making no sense at all.
Because the search was for a child who had strayed and NOT a kidnap victim.And they knew this for certain even while still looking for her?
Have you read the full court transcript then? A doctor could also only offer an opinion, same as parents and teachers, however it seems that the opinions of those who never knew the child at all have taken precedence.
And they knew this for certain even while still looking for her?
There was no evidence of abduction.There was no evidence to point to any particular theory, but the parents "insisted" she'd been abducted which you might have thought would at least be worth checking out by not concentrating the search to the very immediate area (as Angelo suggested they did because they believed Nora couldn't walk very far). In any case, by Day 3 they had certainly already extended their search as far as the location where she was eventually found. I do find it astounding that with hundreds of people including indigenous trackers, and with dogs and helicopters utilised that she was not found for 13 days, 10 of which (according to the pathologist) she would have still been alive, and only materialised the day after a ten grand reward is posted. A coincidence no doubt, but still odd IMO.
There was no evidence to point to any particular theory, but the parents "insisted" she'd been abducted which you might have thought would at least be worth checking out by not concentrating the search to the very immediate area (as Angelo suggested they did because they believed Nora couldn't walk very far). In any case, by Day 3 they had certainly already extended their search as far as the location where she was eventually found. I do find it astounding that with hundreds of people including indigenous trackers, and with dogs and helicopters utilised that she was not found for 13 days, 10 of which (according to the pathologist) she would have still been alive, and only materialised the day after a ten grand reward is posted. A coincidence no doubt, but still odd IMO.Jesus....I agree.
....or.....she got up, went for a wander, some locals snatched her, held her somewhere and fed her sparsely or not at all. When the brown stuff hit the fan after several days, they killed her and dumped her body.It's possible she was snatched by one / two locals who were repulsed or frightened by her disabilities and decided to let her go off by herself when they couldn't handle her anymore.
The 'killing' bit would be difficult to get past a coroner undetected. Strangulation or smothering would be easiest, but both leave tell-tale signs that they would almost certainly be unaware of (petechiae / hyoid bone fracture)
It's possible she was snatched by one / two locals who were repulsed or frightened by her disabilities and decided to let her go off by herself when they couldn't handle her anymore.That too.
That too.This is why IMO her parents were right to expect an open verdict.
But they couldn't take the risk of her giving them away. If this scenario is on the cards, then they must've kept her long enough for her to develop serious medical condition due to malnutrition, then panicked and disposed of her when the searchers were upon them. Seems a stretch, mind.
The unblemished feet....weird.
This is why IMO her parents were right to expect an open verdict.....or......she did manage to make it in to the she decent found shelter, but was still lost and was too afraid to venture out. Eventually hunger forced her to instinctively forage.
....or......she did manage to make it in to the she decent found shelter, but was still lost and was too afraid to venture out. Eventually hunger forced her to instinctively forage.One thing is for certain - we will never know what really happened. Her parents will be tormented by this until the end of their days, and I'm sure there will always be people online ready, willing and able to judge them harshly and remorselessly.
One thing is for certain - we will never know what really happened. Her parents will be tormented by this until the end of their days, and I'm sure there will always be people online ready, willing and able to judge them harshly and remorselessly.Rest well, Nora.
....or.....she got up, went for a wander, some locals snatched her, held her somewhere and fed her sparsely or not at all. When the brown stuff hit the fan after several days, they killed her and dumped her body.
The 'killing' bit would be difficult to get past a coroner undetected. Strangulation or smothering would be easiest, but both leave tell-tale signs that they would almost certainly be unaware of (petechiae / hyoid bone fracture)
nora would have tried to fight back if she was being strangled sometimes there are fingernail marks from thatExactly, there's loads of tell tale signs - which obviously weren't there.
I tend to agree with the mother, she knew Nora best, she knew what she was and was not capable better than the Malaysian authorities and better than online WUMs.
Mothers may be closer to their children than others, but that doesn't mean their opinions are always right. Children can behave differently with different people and in different situations. Behaviour which a mother sees as normal could just be a habitual response to a protective mother.Just remember that next time someone cites Kate's mother saying Madeleine would have screamed the place down if she'd beem in the process of being abducted, 'kay?
Just remember that next time someone cites Kate's mother saying Madeleine would have screamed the place down if she'd beem in the process of being abducted, 'kay?
I was actually thinking of Kate McCann saying her daughter wouldn't leave their apartment despite having told her friends that the patio doors were left unlocked specifically so that her daughter could do just that. A mother who actually contradicts her own opinion of her daughter.Sorry, which one of those is a direct quote from Kate?
A family source said: "Kate and Gerry have always maintained that their daughter was abducted and simply didn’t get up and wander off to her fate.
"To suggest this is almost ridiculous.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/uk-news/ex-cop-believes-madeleine-mccann-16340466
she was saying 'Is it better that if Madeleine wakes up she can get out and find us or', erm, 'or locking it and, you know, finding that we're not there and the door's locked if she woke up'
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
I remember Gerry saying that they did not treat the matter with urgency and only stated that Madeleine must have left on her own and that she would be back later. It was so frustrating, Madeleine did not do things like that, she was not that kind of girl.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PATRICIA_CAMERON.htm
Sorry, which one of those is a direct quote from Kate?
And - are you now arguing that no one would know how a specific child would react to being carried out of their bed and apartment by an abuctor despite you previously using Kate's mother's interview as evidence that Madeleine would have screamed the place down?
No-one knows another person completely, not even the person's mother.And a person’s grandmother even less so.
And a person’s grandmother even less so.
Quoting what someone says doesn't indicate agreement with them.strange you would refer to it so regularly then. On at least three separate occasions that I can see using a very basic search. Good to know you don’t agree with it though and that you don’t now accept that Madeleine would definitely have behaved as her grandmother described.
strange you would refer to it so regularly then. On at least three separate occasions that I can see using a very basic search. Good to know you don’t agree with it though and that you don’t now accept that Madeleine would definitely have behaved as her grandmother described.
I expect the clue lies in what was being discussed at the time. I don't believe anyone who thinks they can predict with certainty what another person can/will do.I think young children and toddlers are quite unpredictable, yes, but that the older a child is, the longer you have lived with him or her (particularly one with special needs that limit their movements and attitudes to risk taking or dangers) the more likely you are to be able to judge what they are and are not likely to do. IMO.