UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Apostate on December 23, 2013, 01:36:11 PM
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http://www.met.police.uk/foi/pdfs/disclosure_2013/november_2013/2013100000727.pdf
Freedom of Information Request Reference No:
I note you seek access to the following information:
What is the cost of the Met's investigation of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann
in Portugal to date in that figure, what costs are included?
DECISION
I have today decided to disclose the located information to you in full.
Operation Grange commenced May 2011. The aggregated costs as at 31/08/2013 was
£4.7 million.
A Major Investigation Team (MIT) is assigned to Operation Grange. This is made up of:
1 - Detective Chief Inspector
3 - Detective Inspectors
5 - Detective Sergeants
20 - Detective Constables
8 - Police support staff.
The costs are made up of:
Travel
subsistence
and incidental costs associated with any investigations (for example Forensics etc).
For me it's not so much the money as the number of officers involved - with what result?
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Their breakdown makes no mention of salaries, unless that is covered by 'incidental costs'
Is the budget open-ended, do you think or will there be a maximum figure ?
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My reading of the figures is that the £4.7 million does not include salaries. Also it has never been clear to me whether all these officers are dedicated entirely to Grange.
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What an appalling waste of money considering the Met can never to do any independent investigating on the ground in any country outside of England. How long is this fiasco going to continue??
If Madeleine is dead no amount of money will ever bring her back. If she is alive they will never find her and it will only be through her own efforts and the passage of time that she might some day reveal herself.
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What an appalling waste of money considering the Met can never to do any independent investigating on the ground in any country outside of England. How long is this fiasco going to continue??
If Madeleine is dead no amount of money will ever bring her back. If she is alive they will never find her and it will only be through her own efforts and the passage of time that she might some day reveal herself.
I fear it will drag on as long as SY can get funding. I doubt there will be any satisfactory outcome.
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What an appalling waste of money considering the Met can never to do any independent investigating on the ground in any country outside of England. How long is this fiasco going to continue??
If Madeleine is dead no amount of money will ever bring her back. If she is alive they will never find her and it will only be through her own efforts and the passage of time that she might some day reveal herself.
It would be just wonderful if little girl was found and I really hate to admit that it is highly unlikely now, unless as you say she will reveal herself one day. Lets keep our fingers crossed while SC finish investigating, which despite the cost they will have to do now
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Meanwhile what help have the Needhams and families of other missing people received, financially or otherwise ?
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Meanwhile what help have the Needhams and families of other missing people received, financially or otherwise ?
None. Its only pushy people who get anything.
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None. Its only pushy people who get anything.
well jazzi..if my child was missing i'd be pushy too..wouldn't you..?
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well jazzi..if my child was missing i'd be pushy too..wouldn't you..?
Well Ben Needhams been pushing for years and got nowhere.
Clearly the Mccanns have had special treatment.
So the question is WHY ?
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Well Ben Needhams been pushing for years and got nowhere.
Clearly the Mccanns have had special treatment.
So the question is WHY ?
As for special treatment cant help you there..but ben needham certainly hasn't been forgotten..and its 21 years later..the uk police are still looking for him
22 August 2012
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2191843/Police-Greek-island-dig-mound-earth-fear-British-toddler-Ben-Needham-buried-21-years-went-missing.html
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/ben-needham-dig-police-find-1393687
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As for special treatment cant help you there..but ben needham certainly hasn't been forgotten..and its 21 years later..the uk police are still looking for him
22 August 2012
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2191843/Police-Greek-island-dig-mound-earth-fear-British-toddler-Ben-Needham-buried-21-years-went-missing.html
Old news.
What financial help have the Needhams received from the UK government ?
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Old news.
What financial help have the Needhams received from the UK government ?
sorry don't have a clue im not the government..but there has been a vast amount of help looking for ben
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/ben-needham-dig-police-find-1393687
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well jazzi..if my child was missing i'd be pushy too..wouldn't you..?
No. not like that. I suspect I would just fade away. Certainly wouldn't court publicity.
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No. not like that. I suspect I would just fade away. Certainly wouldn't court publicity.
"You would just fade away if your child was missing" ?
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"You would just fade away if your child was missing" ?
Probably. Certainly couldn't sustain that level of intensity year after year after year.
All of us are different and react to tragedy in different ways.
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Probably. Certainly couldn't sustain that level of intensity year after year after year.
All of us are different and react to tragedy in different ways.
Then in that case..let the McCann's react in the way they see fit..shows they not prepared to give up on madeleine..
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Then in that case..let the McCann's react in the way they see fit..shows they not prepared to give up on madeleine..
I'm not hindering them
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http://www.met.police.uk/foi/pdfs/disclosure_2013/november_2013/2013100000727.pdf
For me it's not so much the money as the number of officers involved - with what result?
That is a startling amount of money for an essentially office-based operation.
The entire Jill Dando investigation only cost about £2m I think. >@@(*&)
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That is a startling amount of money for an essentially office-based operation.
The entire Jill Dando investigation only cost about £2m I think. >@@(*&)
Inflation. How long ago was Dando?
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Inflation. How long ago was Dando?
1999-2001.
Costs of entertaining witnesses probably not included @)(++(*
(allegedly)
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1999-2001.
Costs of entertaining witnesses probably not included @)(++(*
(allegedly)
Don' forget the free trips to the Algarve at the taxpayers expense.
Purely for work of course. 8)-)))
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That is a startling amount of money for an essentially office-based operation.
The entire Jill Dando investigation only cost about £2m I think. >@@(*&)
The review into Jill Dando's murder cost a mere £600.000.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/jill-dando-case-closed-as-review-finds-no-new-clues-8556692.html
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The review into Jill Dando's murder cost a mere £600.000.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/jill-dando-case-closed-as-review-finds-no-new-clues-8556692.html
Good spot 8((()*/
Very interesting comparison.
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Good spot 8((()*/
Very interesting comparison.
But the Madeleine case is vastly more complicated and wide-ranging than the Dando, isn't it?
Personally I find it quite easy to see how things have reached the figure they have.
Isn't the question really a case of whether we think government money should be going into a case like this in the first place?
Once the decision has been made, obviously it is going to cost a lot - if £4m is really an enormous amount of money these days.
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But the Madeleine case is vastly more complicated and wide-ranging than the Dando, isn't it?
Personally I find it quite easy to see how things have reached the figure they have.
Isn't the question really a case of whether we think government money should be going into a case like this in the first place?
Once the decision has been made, obviously it is going to cost a lot - if £4m is really an enormous amount of money these days.
Personally it does make me wonder. All this staff used for this review and the money, when there are a lot of cold cases still ongoing and also open investigations in this country not completed.
There seems to have been a huge amount of attention to find the child not only with PJ, and SY, but also how many detectives paid for by the McCanns and NOTHING NEW has come up.
When do you simply say enough is enough?
There are so many cases unsolved with missing children in this country.
I know the McCanns dont want to give up who would, but you can still have hope without all the on going media.
One example is Ben Needhams mum, you hardly see her on the news, but people are still looking for him.
I think its a lot of resource for one child when there is so much else going on in this country which needs to be sorted out.
I dont think anyone will stop looking for the child, and sometimes when you stop looking for something it turns up.
The total high profile of this case I think has made it IMPOSSIBLE for the child to be found.
Sadly.
Sometimes you have to just move on for the sake of your other children and your sanity, it doesnt mean you have forgotten you would never forget, but its been 7 years with nothing.
I never could understand why SY became involved in the first place. IF a portugese person went missing in London, then its up to the UK police to find that person not the portugese.
This case has not only cost millions in money but a lot of people have been traumatised by the fact they have been associated with it even loosely. So many people have been effected by it, and will probably never get over its fall out.
Its time to let go, and hopefully one day we will find out what happened but SADLY I am thinking not.
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I dont think anyone will stop looking for the child, and sometimes when you stop looking for something it turns up.
That's true, but perhaps it is because we've a tendency to complicate things that they become muddled.
The only persons who have really looked for Madeleine did it in Portugal in the days following her disappearance. Is it looking for a child to launch balloons, wear her face on your chest, have the pope bless a photograph ? I trust the large majority of people will react when any child seems to need help.
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Personally it does make me wonder. All this staff used for this review and the money, when there are a lot of cold cases still ongoing and also open investigations in this country not completed.
There seems to have been a huge amount of attention to find the child not only with PJ, and SY, but also how many detectives paid for by the McCanns and NOTHING NEW has come up.
When do you simply say enough is enough?
There are so many cases unsolved with missing children in this country.
I know the McCanns dont want to give up who would, but you can still have hope without all the on going media.
One example is Ben Needhams mum, you hardly see her on the news, but people are still looking for him.
I think its a lot of resource for one child when there is so much else going on in this country which needs to be sorted out.
I dont think anyone will stop looking for the child, and sometimes when you stop looking for something it turns up.
The total high profile of this case I think has made it IMPOSSIBLE for the child to be found.
Sadly.
Sometimes you have to just move on for the sake of your other children and your sanity, it doesnt mean you have forgotten you would never forget, but its been 7 years with nothing.
I never could understand why SY became involved in the first place. IF a portugese person went missing in London, then its up to the UK police to find that person not the portugese.
This case has not only cost millions in money but a lot of people have been traumatised by the fact they have been associated with it even loosely. So many people have been effected by it, and will probably never get over its fall out.
Its time to let go, and hopefully one day we will find out what happened but SADLY I am thinking not.
Left to their own devices, I don't think SY would have gone anywhere near it. It was only at the insistence of Cameron and May that they took it on.
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Left to their own devices, I don't think SY would have gone anywhere near it. It was only at the insistence of Cameron and May that they took it on.
I'm sure you're right. All it would take is one chat with Leicestershire Police for the Met officers to know the case is a black hole.
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It's a very high-profile black hole though. Plenty of spotlight before the gravity sucks you in 8)-)))
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I'm sure you're right. All it would take is one chat with Leicestershire Police for the Met officers to know the case is a black hole.
And a deep one at that. Has there ever been an abducted child found in modern times? The only incidents I can recall recently are those where they have managed to escape by their own efforts.
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And a deep one at that. Has there ever been an abducted child found in modern times? The only incidents I can recall recently are those where they have managed to escape by their own efforts.
The girls in Ohio weren't exactly babies when they disappeared.
And they were only found thanks to their own efforts & Charles Ramsey....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=mqIHpNRRtS0
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And a deep one at that. Has there ever been an abducted child found in modern times? The only incidents I can recall recently are those where they have managed to escape by their own efforts.
I'm sure there must be some, and many when police in other countries are included.
I can't recall specific examples at the moment though 8()-000(
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Left to their own devices, I don't think SY would have gone anywhere near it. It was only at the insistence of Cameron and May that they took it on.
May was pressured by Cameron, addressed by the MCs' open letter as a "father knowing the importance of a child", himself pressured by RB. May had revealingly told the MC some time before that she hadn't even read the Gamble report.
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I'm sure there must be some, and many when police in other countries are included.
I can't recall specific examples at the moment though 8()-000(
I know 2 cases in Portugal, two women obsessed by motherhood, two newborn, both abducted from a maternity.
One was recovered within 24 hours thanks to the abducted child alert implemented in June 2009. The other case is much older and it took two years to find the little girl, very much loved in a family who never suspected she wasn't "hers".
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I know 2 cases in Portugal, two women obsessed by motherhood, two newborn, both abducted from a maternity.
One was recovered within 24 hours thanks to the abducted child alert implemented in June 2009. The other case is much older and it took two years to find the little girl, very much loved in a family who never suspected she wasn't "hers".
8((()*/ It definitely happens, but you'd think police usually have something to go on, some clue or clues. In this case there's nothing, just a big database of people "looking suspicious" hours, days or weeks before the incident, or hours, days or weeks after it. And of the only two 'suspicious' events that occur at the same time as the incident, one is almost completely ignored... for years! >@@(*&)
Tough not to be cynical isn't it.
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8((()*/ It definitely happens, but you'd think police usually have something to go on, some clue or clues. In this case there's nothing, just a big database of people "looking suspicious" hours, days or weeks before the incident, or hours, days or weeks after it. And of the only two 'suspicious' events that occur at the same time as the incident, one is almost completely ignored... for years! >@@(*&)
Tough not to be cynical isn't it.
Not just ignored - but actively buried
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8((()*/ It definitely happens, but you'd think police usually have something to go on, some clue or clues. In this case there's nothing, just a big database of people "looking suspicious" hours, days or weeks before the incident, or hours, days or weeks after it. And of the only two 'suspicious' events that occur at the same time as the incident, one is almost completely ignored... for years! >@@(*&)
Tough not to be cynical isn't it.
At the root of this case, imo, there's a spectacular lure, what Icabodcrane names "Colombo's little detail", i.e an error.
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Not just ignored - but actively buried
?{)(**
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At the root of this case, imo, there's a spectacular lure, what Icabodcrane names "Colombo's little detail", i.e an error.
Colombo would just follow everyone about going 8-)(--) until one or more of them could stand it no longer @)(++(*
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Colombo would just follow everyone about going 8-)(--) until one or more of them could stand it no longer @)(++(*
"Just one more thing Mr Murat, when did you have your driveway relaid?"
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I worry, Mrs McCann, I mean, little things bother me. What did the curtains after being whooshed up ?
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I worry, Mrs McCann, I mean, little things bother me. What did the curtains after being whooshed up ?
?{)(** I can't see Colombo being too convinced by that story.
But the bit that gets me is straight out of Agatha Christie - a mother abandoning two children on discovering a third is missing >@@(*&) Poirot or Miss Marple wouldn't believe that either. Too much drama!
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?{)(** I can't see Colombo being too convinced by that story.
But the bit that gets me is straight out of Agatha Christie - a mother abandoning two children on discovering a third is missing >@@(*&) Poirot or Miss Marple wouldn't believe that either. Too much drama!
What I find amazing about the gone with the wind drama is that we are being asked to believe that the wind kind of waited around a bit after the 'abduction' & right up untill the moment Kate went to open the door for her check, before blowing with the force required to slam the door shut. That's got to be one hell of a coincidence hasn't it?
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What I find amazing about the gone with the wind drama is that we are being asked to believe that the wind kind of waited around a bit after the 'abduction' & right up untill the moment Kate went to open the door for her check, before blowing with the force required to slam the door shut. That's got to be one hell of a coincidence hasn't it?
I think this is why the case will always be talked about. If they're telling the truth about what happened to Madeleine, as you say their story either involves the most fantastic sequence of coincidences or they embellished it - and if they did that then there will always be people who think they did more than just exaggerate.
The writer of the book that's still the only one ever published on the case in the UK certainly thinks the truth wasn't told.
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What I find amazing about the gone with the wind drama is that we are being asked to believe that the wind kind of waited around a bit after the 'abduction' & right up untill the moment Kate went to open the door for her check, before blowing with the force required to slam the door shut. That's got to be one hell of a coincidence hasn't it?
It doesn't make any sense. If you came into the apartment and found the bedroom door fully open then you would check the children were in the room FIRST before closing the door and then a big gust of wind catching it slamming it shut. Then Kate reopens it and notices Madeleine is missing. That's the wrong way round like most of this case 8-)(--) Kate found it hard to see her because the room was dark but Gerry could see Madeleine clearly on his check. Things don't add up as usual.
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It doesn't make any sense. If you came into the apartment and found the bedroom door fully open then you would check the children were in the room FIRST before closing the door and then a big gust of wind catching it slamming it shut. Then Kate reopens it and notices Madeleine is missing. That's the wrong way round like most of this case 8-)(--) Kate found it hard to see her because the room was dark but Gerry could see Madeleine clearly on his check. Things don't add up as usual.
Even more weird is she says the shutters were up the window slid back, the curtains whooshed, surely there would be MORE LIGHT IN THE ROOM to see the child, as there were lights outside.........
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Even more weird is she says the shutters were up the window slid back, the curtains whooshed, surely there would be MORE LIGHT IN THE ROOM to see the child, as there were lights outside.........
Agreed and if the door was fully open then more light from the living room would be coming into the bedroom which would have made it easier to see if Madeleine was there or not in the nearest bed to the door. One of the curtains was trapped behind the single bed that was pushed up against the wall. Only one curtain could have possibly whooshed up! Another thing that room was kept dark and only used for the kids to sleep in. That would explain no photos of the wardrobe because there was nothing in it. The cot was trapping the doors. Not the other possibly missing main luggage bag ziltch.
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Whooshed up curtains don't got back to their room behind bed and chair on their own.
(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/01_VOLUME_Ia_Page_16_small1.jpg)
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Whooshed up curtains don't got back to their room behind bed and chair on their own.
(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/01_VOLUME_Ia_Page_16_small1.jpg)
On these photos the window and blinds are closed, so
who ever closed them, more than likely fixed the curtains.
As for the door banging......Through draught ?, from having opened the patio doors.
However this means that an abductor didn't open the window and then go out through an external door, as it would have caused the same draught and the door would have slammed then also. This means the door would have been closed when the 10 pm check was done. I used to have the same problem if 2 external doors or external door and window were open.....they caused the door between to slam.
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On these photos the window and blinds are closed, so
who ever closed them, more than likely fixed the curtains.
The curtain behind the bed couldn't whoosh up. The other curtain couldn't be open as on the photo by a draught.
Nobody stated to have "fixed the curtains".
On a crime scene, one thing is closing a window to prevent children to get cold, another would, without any motive whatsoever, to touch the curtains.
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The curtain behind the bed couldn't whoosh up. The other curtain couldn't be open as on the photo by a draught.
Nobody stated to have "fixed the curtains".
On a crime scene, one thing is closing a window to prevent children to get cold, another would, without any motive whatsoever, to touch the curtains.
So what was the motive to close the blinds ?
If these curtains were trapped behind the bed, it must have been a performance closing them at bedtime
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Shutters, window and curtains were closed from day 1 : they said they never touched them.
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Shutters, window and curtains were closed from day 1 : they said they never touched them.
In Kates statement she said that she found the window, curtains and shutters open and (as you state...they said they never touched them) Who opened them and more to the point, who shut them again?.
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Shutters, window and curtains were closed from day 1 : they said they never touched them.
Kate, Crimewatch & the curtains.
"She wasn’t in our bed, And that was, that was the first time where I guess you know the panic kicked in & it was literally at that point the curtains that I say that were closed kind just kind of ‘whoosh’ & then I could see that the window had been pushed right over & the shutters were up.
So, so I kind of knew straightway then that Madeleine had been taken.
"the curtains that I say that were closed"
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Whether the curtains were open or closed would make little difference to a through draught, that would cause a door to slam shut and forensics must have already gone through that room, for the window and shutter to then be closed as they would need the curtains fully open or removed to do the window prints. Scenes of crime photographer would do the remainder of the room (layout) last ? I don't take sides, but curious as to the pattern of a through draft as in my earlier post.
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For obvious reasons, photographs were taken before looking for fingerprints.
Anybody who thinks that a whooshing up curtain is by itself capable to go back to its room, behind a bed, should kindly make a film and post it.
The AG was perplex about it.
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Kate McCann ‘Madeleine Was Here’
"I did my check about 10’oclock and went in through the sliding patio doors,
And I Just stood actually and I thought oh all quiet,
And to be honest I might have been tempted to turn round then but I just noticed that the door, the bedroom door where the three children were sleeping was open much further than we’d left it.
I went to close it too about here, and then as I got to here it suddenly (slam) it slammed and then as I opened it, it was then that I just thought I’ll just look at the children and I could see Sean & Amelie in the cot and then I was looking at Madeleine’s bed which was here and it was dark and I was looking and I was thinking is that, is that Madeleine or is that the bedding?
And I couldn’t quite make her out, it sounds really stupid now but at the time I was thinking I didn’t want to put the light on cos I didn’t want to wake them & literally as I went back in the curtains of the bedroom which were drawn, were closed (woosh) it was like a gust of wind kind of just blew them open & cuddlecat was still there and the pink blanket was still there, I mean I knew straight away that she’d erm been taken, you know."
Crimewatch
Kate McCann
"So at 10’ o’clock I got up to do the next check, I’d finished eating then so I headed back to the apartment the usual route.
Then I just stopped & listened in the living are for a bit and it was all quiet, but it just caught my eye that the children’s door was quite far open, and at that point I thought it must have been when Matt checked and he’s left it open and as I was just drawing it over it (slam) It was like it had been caught by a draught & just kind of slammed shut, and it was only at that point really that I kind of as I opened it a bit I kind of looked into the room and I was I guess I was looking at Madeleine’s bed & I couldn’t, couldn’t make her out & then I realised actually she’s not in that bed & I thought oh I wonder if she’s woken up and gone through to our bed, She wasn’t in our bed, And that was, that was the first time where I guess you know the panic kicked in & it was literally at that point the curtains that I say that were closed kind just kind of ‘whoosh’ & then I could see that the window had been pushed right over & the shutters were up.
So, so I kind of knew straightway then that Madeleine had been taken."
Interesting that in 'Madeleine Was Here' which was made several years prior to Crimewatch, there was no mention of checking the other room...
KM CW
"I realised actually she’s not in that bed & I thought oh I wonder if she’s woken up and gone through to our bed, She wasn’t in our bed"
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Kate McCann ‘Madeleine Was Here’
"literally as I went back in the curtains of the bedroom which were drawn were closed (woosh)"
It appears even Kate was in two minds over the exact status of the curtains.
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For obvious reasons, photographs were taken before looking for fingerprints.
Anybody who thinks that a whooshing up curtain is by itself capable to go back to its room, behind a bed, should kindly make a film and post it.
The AG was perplex about it.
Given the length of those drapes it would have to be one serious blast to have got them whooshing open.
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In Kates statement she said that she found the window, curtains and shutters open and
That was her first statement. From then on she found window, curtains and shutters seemingly shut, but the "moving" bedroom door slammed and a draught revealed all was open.
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Given the length of those drapes it would have to be one serious blast to have got them whooshing open.
A hurricane could do that, but only someone pulling the bed could put the curtain behind the bed.
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Given the length of those drapes it would have to be one serious blast to have got them whooshing open.
Truth. The other day i forget i left my bedroom window slowly open I do it every morning but this was the day we had the storm.
The door is kept shut to keep cats out. Anyway i thought i better go and shut the window, and when I went in the curtain was only moving a bit not exactly whoosing up, and it was really windy outside.
I agree with Anne those curtains were behind a bed and a chair. Why would you need to close curtains anyway if you have blinds? What a phaff having to close them and then put them back behind their ties and negotiate a bed and a chair.
I would expect the window and the blinds were down all the time. I think i would keep the room like that its only for sleeping in.
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The curtains serve to hide the shutters, rather ugly.
Culturally Portuguese would open the window at least once a day for fresh air.
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The curtains serve to hide the shutters, rather ugly.
Culturally Portuguese would open the window at least once a day for fresh air.
I was bought up the mediterranean way, and always open my windows every morning regardless of weather outside, but then we were dealing with people from the UK who dont bother so much. I can look out of my windows now at all the houses out the back and not one with windows open.
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A reminder to all posters to stick to the thread topic: Operation Grange Expenditure
Please reconvene on the 'Could an intruder.....' thread for discussion on the window/shutter/ curtains.