Manner of abduction

[colombosstogey]

For me for an abduction to work so well it would need to be an inside job.

IF someone was going to take the child for money say it would take minutes.

Access to front door, into small hallway, turn right into childs bedroom, pick child up take out front door keeping in dark making sure there is no one about (you can easily hear foot steps at night), walk swiftly  through the car park, turning left into the dark area of PDL and the old Lagos road to a waiting car.

What five minutes?

Gone Baby Gone.

I just feel for it to work so well there needed to be in sider help or information etc....to make it easy.

As to the child waking well I am female and I would just say to the child i am taking you to see your mummy.......

Done and dusted.

[pathfinder73]

Well this was the old timeline, wasn't it?

How would identifying Smithman as a guilty party bring SY back to the timeline they rejected?

The timeline may become important on the actual time of the Smithman sighting. Some of the Smiths said 9.55pm or I've read as early as 9.50pm which is incorrect IMO. Defence could argue on the time of the actual sighting. If it was 9.50pm then it was impossible to be the accused (he was at the Tapas bar). You're looking at a 10pm sighting timeline as Aoife Smith said IMO.

[Sherlock Holmes]

This is an interesting photo.

There are chairs and a table on the patio area. If one were exploring the accidental death theory then why does the child gate need to be opened to exit the apartment? The chairs or table if moved closer could be used to climb over either the railing or safety gate.

As far as forensics go - does there have to be blood or other forensic evidence from a resulting accident? It's entirely possible that a bump to the head could cause somebody to swallow their tongue and choke. If the body was then removed this would most likely leave no forensic sign of the accident.

Personally I don't think this is what happened at all but I just wanted to raise the issue of the chairs and table to ask if Madeleine could have left under her own steam this way rather than just dismiss that route as an exit?

For the record, I've seen children do similar things. My son once climbed out of his own cot at less than 2 years of age by standing on his cuddly toy to boost himself over.

It is an interesting photo, Buzz, and I agree that Madeleine would be capable of standing on chairs and tables and falling over the wall down those steps.

In my opinion there are two problems with this, however. Even though she would be well capable of doing it, she also, at her age, may have been capable of working out the safety gate. This would have been a far more obvious means of exit for her.

There is also the fact that she is recorded as having been awake and crying for longer than an hour on the Tuesday night and apparently made no attempt to get up or leave the apartment. So there is no precedent for her trying to do such a thing.

That doesn't mean that she didn't try on this occasion, of course - only that it would seem out of character and therefore be unlikely.

[Sherlock Holmes]

I agree. I partly raised the subject because KM would have us believe there is no way Madeleine could have exited past the safety gate. I wanted to show a way that she could. Whether or not she would is a different turn of phrase with a different meaning to the same outcome.

Yes, it was important to consider the possibility.

[sadie]

I agree. I partly raised the subject because KM would have us believe there is no way Madeleine could have exited past the safety gate. I wanted to show a way that she could. Whether or not she would is a different turn of phrase with a different meaning to the same outcome.

It would also mean that the chair or table climbed upon was left adjacent to the gate.  There seems to be no record of that.

[AnneGuedes]

There's no mention of the security gate in the statements to the PJ. It's as if it didn't exist or actually was always open.
Why would they open it and close it at night if the kids were sleeping ?
They sometimes are not very easy to open.

[jassi]

It would also mean that the chair or table climbed upon was left adjacent to the gate.  There seems to be no record of that.

Unless it wasn't present at all at that date, the chair would be fairly easy to move to the wall/gate area.

[Sherlock Holmes]

In any case there would have been little likelihood of Madeleine wandering outside of her own accord. Greater minds disagree but there it is.

To begin with she had woken on a previous night and cried at length rather than actively attempting to seek her parents - that being a perfectly normal reaction for a 3-4 year old in the circumstances.

Perhaps if she had been on home ground and knew exactly where to find her parents, she may have attempted to do so. Here things were very different.

It is hard to know exactly what her sense of geography was, but there is nothing to say that she would have had much of an idea of where her parents were in relation to the apartment (if indeed she imagined them to be within walking distance. Who knows where she thought they were).

Even if she knew them to be close by, this was unfamiliar territory, which she covered only a few times. Perhaps a 50 yard journey on home turf, covered regularly, would have been easy to navigate - a school run, for example.  But would she ever have traversed the direct route from the apartment to the tapas with her parents during the day? Probably not. So how would she imagine that she could figure it out herself alone in pitch black?

The notion of being drawn to the lights of the restaurant and following her nose shows an adult perception of the situation, not hers.

If she had been sufficiently distressed as to leave the apartment and venture into the night (she wasn't scared of the dark?), she would most probably have been crying as well, and may have been heard.

All in all a most unlikely possibility.

[AnneGuedes]

I agree with you both.
Eventually, being sure where her parents were and knowing how to go to the Tapas because she did it with her parents once a day (after lunch they used to go to the play ground), she could have risked it, calling. But the Tapas door was closed, would she scream ?
This is why Mrs McCann's comment to Mrs Payne is amazing, as amazing is Mrs Payne not objecting.

[pathfinder73]

I was surprised how much Fiona gave away being her good friend not David and his 6.30 visit - I don't know If it was before or after I went back to the tennis courts, I can't remember what Kate was wearing (only a towel according to Kate), don't know what the kids were wearing but I saw them, they had no bag you could hide a tennis racket in etc. DP is a weird one to work out for any detectives on this case. It's as bad as JT walking past Gerry/Jez on the same of the road which did not happen - she walks round the path way to the apartment which is her usual route but on that night of the sighting she changes and walks up to the top of the road and walks past them - I don't think so without either noticing - do they think we were really born yesterday. Fiona talking about how strange it was that she was checking the twins to see if they were still breathing (they never woke up). You only have to watch the sedatives question on youtube. So try and work all that out. You think you've cracked it then you have the others who you think are lying. Not quite as simple as it seems.

[AnneGuedes]

I was surprised how much Fiona gave away being her good friend not David and his 6.30 visit - I don't know If it was before or after I went back to the tennis courts, I can't remember what Kate was wearing (only a towel according to Kate), don't know what the kids were wearing but I saw them, they had no bag you could hide a tennis racket in etc. David Payne is a weird one to work out for any detectives on this case. It's as bad as Jane Tanner walking past Gerry/Jez on the same of the road which did not happen - she walks round the path way to the apartment which is her usual route but on that night of the sighting she changes and walks up to the top of the road and walks past them - I don't think so without either noticing - do they think we were really born yesterday. Fiona talking about how strange it was that she was checking the twins to see if they were still breathing (they never woke up). You only have to watch the sedatives question on youtube and the nervous twitches and ear pulling. So try and work all that out. You think you've cracked it then you have the others who you think are lying. Not quite as simple as it seems.

Fiona is the best proof that there was no connivance in the group. She observes her friend checking the twins, they don't discuss the issue as doctors, but Fiona reports it to the police.
I don't think the McCanns lie in front of the cameras, they anyhow have a control on the questions, this is likely why they never said much about the sedation issue.

[colombosstogey]

In any case there would have been little likelihood of Madeleine wandering outside of her own accord. Greater minds disagree but there it is.

To begin with she had woken on a previous night and cried at length rather than actively attempting to seek her parents - that being a perfectly normal reaction for a 3-4 year old in the circumstances.

Perhaps if she had been on home ground and knew exactly where to find her parents, she may have attempted to do so. Here things were very different.

It is hard to know exactly what her sense of geography was, but there is nothing to say that she would have had much of an idea of where her parents were in relation to the apartment (if indeed she imagined them to be within walking distance. Who knows where she thought they were).

Even if she knew them to be close by, this was unfamiliar territory, which she covered only a few times. Perhaps a 50 yard journey on home turf, covered regularly, would have been easy to navigate - a school run, for example.  But would she ever have traversed the direct route from the apartment to the tapas with her parents during the day? Probably not. So how would she imagine that she could figure it out herself alone in pitch black?

The notion of being drawn to the lights of the restaurant and following her nose shows an adult perception of the situation, not hers.

If she had been sufficiently distressed as to leave the apartment and venture into the night (she wasn't scared of the dark?), she would most probably have been crying as well, and may have been heard.

All in all a most unlikely possibility.

I agree although it was the night of the 1st a child was heard crying, then we hear of the 2nd so I wonder if she had been crying BOTH nights.

Perhaps she had just got plain angry on the 3rd? Really angry with her parents, maybe she decided to go out and hide to scare them....who knows what goes into a 4 year old, they are capable of things we can never understand.

Although i dont think this would happen personally but .... she was deemed difficult by her own mothers lips.

I think personally if she came out onto the patio she would have been crying, if the stair gate was open she would have gone down the stairs.....but i dont think this happened.

I think she could have wandered about inside the apartment but not out.

[AnneGuedes]

I agree although it was the night of the 1st a child was heard crying, then we hear of the 2nd so I wonder if she had been crying BOTH nights.

Perhaps she had just got plain angry on the 3rd? Really angry with her parents, maybe she decided to go out and hide to scare them....who knows what goes into a 4 year old, they are capable of things we can never understand.

Although i dont think this would happen personally but .... she was deemed difficult by her own mothers lips.

I think personally if she came out onto the patio she would have been crying, if the stair gate was open she would have gone down the stairs.....but i dont think this happened.

I think she could have wandered about inside the apartment but not out.

She hardly cry on the 2nd, that's the curious part of the episode told by the McCanns (note that they never said it was on the 2nd, but common sense says it), Mrs Oldfield stayed at home, was on the other side of the bedroom's wall and heard nothing.