The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.

[Mr Gray]

Well, thats not what the handler said in his report, they are just your words...his words regarding the car alert were the EVRD alert is suggestive of cadaver scent contaminant or blood when he wrote his report after all the searches in PDL.....

You have no way of knowing that Eddie did not alert to the scent of cadaver coming out the car door seal and also react to the key fob for blood when screened separately in the sand box by both dogs....and please dont make sweeping generlisations about what skeptics believe  ignore or dont ignore...not everyne believes a body was in that car...

 It is clear that when Grime says that it could be blood or cadaver no court would accept that this was evidence of cadaver scent...get a grip of reality...the words "could be" would never be acceptable to any court..can you imagine Grime in court...could be...could be not

[ferryman]

It is clear that when Grime says that it could be blood or cadaver no court would accept that this was evidence of cadaver scent...get a grip of reality...the words "could be" would never be acceptable to any court..can you imagine Grime in court...could be...could be not

Eddie alerted to Gerry's blood.

Gerry is alive

It really is that simple.

Eddie did not alert to the boot.

Keela alerted to the boot.

So either there was blood in the mix from the boot or Keela false-alerted.

Of course, if there was blood in the mix from the boot, Eddie should have reacted to it.

Eddie did not ...

[pathfinder73]

Imagine if the dogs had alerted at Murat's or his car. It would be most interesting to read the comments here 

[John]

Imagine if the dogs had alerted at Murat's or his car. It would be most interesting to read the comments here 

The dog wasn't allowed long enough to alert at any other car having been called back to a certain silver Renault Scenic (the target) several times.  Gives a whole new meaning to fair and impartial testing.

[pathfinder73]

The dog wasn't allowed long enough to alert at any other car having been called back to a certain silver Renault Scenic (the target) several times.  Gives a whole new meaning to fair and impartial testing.

Wasn't that because the dog's behaviour changed when it passed the Renault and Eddie had found the scent and was chasing it with his nose in the air? So Eddie was brought back to the car because that's where his behaviour changed.

[John]

Surely his behaviour changed when he reacted to the wall?  If I remember correctly Eddie walked round and passed the car several times and only showed an interest when his handler called him back.

[colombosstogey]

Surely his behaviour changed when he reacted to the wall?  If I remember correctly Eddie walked round and passed the car several times and only showed an interest when his handler called him back.

It does look confusing. BUT the dog was scenting the air between the renault and the other car parked.

OK. Say for arguements sake, there was cadaver scent on the Renault. The cars were brought into the car parking area, and parked. Now for all we know that car could have been parked CLOSER to the other car, where the dog was sniffing the air.

Perhaps the car was not in the right place so was moved a bit further away. Either way the car was driven along that area in front of the bays, SO THE DOG was sniffing the air. Lay people who do not work with dogs would think the dog was being prompted, that is not the case. I had it all explained to me by my K9 friend.

 Like I said the cars had to be DRIVEN in and some of the scent if it was strong could have been transferred to that area.

The dog clearly scented something from the Renault. This is what the dogs do, their heads go up to find to the source. Grimes had to bring the dog back into focus. Whether it was scenting cadavar between the Renault or not we have no clue, but they do go off on trails and need bringing back to the task in hand. All they know is they must find the scent, they dont know they have to sniff each car, its the handlers job to keep them on track.

IF you watch the video, Grimes makes the dog check EACH car, NOT just the Renault.

No the dog was on a trail maybe nothing to do with the case, but when brought back to do the task he indicated on the door.

 

[Benice]

It does look confusing. BUT the dog was scenting the air between the renault and the other car parked.

OK. Say for arguements sake, there was cadaver scent on the Renault. The cars were brought into the car parking area, and parked. Now for all we know that car could have been parked CLOSER to the other car, where the dog was sniffing the air.

Perhaps the car was not in the right place so was moved a bit further away. Either way the car was driven along that area in front of the bays, SO THE DOG was sniffing the air. Lay people who do not work with dogs would think the dog was being prompted, that is not the case. I had it all explained to me by my K9 friend.

 Like I said the cars had to be DRIVEN in and some of the scent if it was strong could have been transferred to that area.

The dog clearly scented something from the Renault. This is what the dogs do, their heads go up to find to the source. Grimes had to bring the dog back into focus. Whether it was scenting cadavar between the Renault or not we have no clue, but they do go off on trails and need bringing back to the task in hand. All they know is they must find the scent, they dont know they have to sniff each car, its the handlers job to keep them on track.

IF you watch the video, Grimes makes the dog check EACH car, NOT just the Renault.

No the dog was on a trail maybe nothing to do with the case, but when brought back to do the task he indicated on the door.

The video says differently.    Eddie didn't even do a complete circuit of one of the cars (car no 2 or 3) before he moved on to the next one, with Grime making no attempt at all to call him back.

It was Grime's behaviour and body language which changed when it came to the Renault not Eddies.       Eddie showed no more interest in that car than any other - but instead of following him when he ran away from it  - Grime stayed with the Renault and repeatedly called Eddie back to it.     He did not do that with any other car.

Eddie proved that it took over two minutes and a great deal of encouragement from his handler before he finally 'homed in' on the scent of Gerry's blood on the key fob.       If he had been allowed to move away from the Renault after 30 seconds - (which was the max time spent on any of the other cars) - then the result would have been the same as for those cars - i.e. no alert from Eddie to the Renault in that short timescale.  That is a fact - proved by the video.

Conversely  no-one can say what the outcome would have been with the other cars if the same length of time and the same amount of encouragement had been given to 'searching' those cars to the dog.   Maybe after 2 mins other alerts would also have resulted.

The only car Keela was put in was the Renault.   To ensure the search was  'fair and unbiased' she should have been put into every car IMO.   

Also if as you claim Eddie was alerting to a scent between TWO cars - then why didn't Grime treat both cars the same?    Why completely ignore one and give so much attention to the other?

 





 

[colombosstogey]

The video says differently.    Eddie didn't even do a complete circuit of one of the cars (car no 2 or 3) before he moved on to the next one, with Grime making no attempt at all to call him back.

It was Grime's behaviour and body language which changed when it came to the Renault not Eddies.       Eddie showed no more interest in that car than any other - but instead of following him when he ran away from it  - Grime stayed with the Renault and repeatedly called Eddie back to it.     He did not do that with any other car.

Eddie proved that it took over two minutes and a great deal of encouragement from his handler before he finally 'homed in' on the scent of Gerry's blood on the key fob.       If he had been allowed to move away from the Renault after 30 seconds - (which was the max time spent on any of the other cars) - then the result would have been the same as for those cars - i.e. no alert from Eddie to the Renault in that short timescale.  That is a fact - proved by the video.

Conversely  no-one can say what the outcome would have been with the other cars if the same length of time and the same amount of encouragement had been given to 'searching' those cars to the dog.   Maybe after 2 mins other alerts would also have resulted.

The only car Keela was put in was the Renault.   To ensure the search was  'fair and unbiased' she should have been put into every car IMO.   

Also if as you claim Eddie was alerting to a scent between TWO cars - then why didn't Grime treat both cars the same?    Why completely ignore one and give so much attention to the other?

 





 

He did actually.

IF you look again. The dog was brought back to the REnault because it was from that area he indicated jeez how hard is it to make people understand. The dog had gone off trail, could scent something, but had not completed the task at hand, so was brought back to the Renault.

Your sumisiation is that Grimes did a FRAUDANTLY check because he knew the Renault was the McCanns. This is highly unlikely to be the case.

You are not an expert on K9 matters, nor am I so i asked a friend who is. The search was handled correctly. So many people have seen this on utube, IF there was any thoughts of fraud do you think Grimes would be working with the FBI now.

I would be very careful what I wrote on here.

He might be joining us shortly.

[Wonderfulspam]

Surely his behaviour changed when he reacted to the wall?  If I remember correctly Eddie walked round and passed the car several times and only showed an interest when his handler called him back.

I noticed the fan on the wall. It was off during the screening, but when was it turned off?
Were the cars parked up prior to the fan being switched off?
Could the suction of the fan have made the scent drift from the car along the wall towards the fan?

[Angelo222]

For the sake of correctness can everyone please note that the handlers name is Martin Grime.

[Benice]

He did actually.

IF you look again. The dog was brought back to the REnault because it was from that area he indicated jeez how hard is it to make people understand. The dog had gone off trail, could scent something, but had not completed the task at hand, so was brought back to the Renault.

Your sumisiation is that Grimes did a FRAUDANTLY check because he knew the Renault was the McCanns. This is highly unlikely to be the case.
You are not an expert on K9 matters, nor am I so i asked a friend who is. The search was handled correctly. So many people have seen this on utube, IF there was any thoughts of fraud do you think Grimes would be working with the FBI now.

I would be very careful what I wrote on here.

He might be joining us shortly.

I think you must have me mixed up with someone else.   I have never once used the word fraudulent or even hinted at fraud.     I do have an opinion on 'unconscious cueing' - which I do not consider to be a crime, but a human failing which dog handlers can unwittingly develop and which has been proved to happen by testing.

IMO The only 'expertise' a reasonably intelligent person needs to learn about sniffer dogs, is the ability to read.

I have read up on what Martin Grime has said - and as an expert in his field  I accept what he says regarding the amazing abilities of his dogs.     However, he is human and therefore not immune from the same human frailties that other dog handlers, nor in fact -  the rest of us a human beings are.   

I believe it was Martin Grime who said   ''People cannot be right 100% of the time otherwise they would not be human'' - when asked questions about his Jersey assignment.

[AnneGuedes]

Your sumisiation is that Grimes did a FRAUDANTLY check because he knew the Renault was the McCanns. This is highly unlikely to be the case.

Even if it was "unconscious", it is fraud since Mr Grime was supervised by Prof. Harrison.
Would Prof. Harrison have cheated the PJ ? But why ?
People don't do things unconsciously without a strong motive. What would be the motive of both Mr Grime and Prof Harrison ?
Why would they risk to destroy the high credit of the dogs ?
Instead of arbitrarily suspect Mr Grime and Prof Harrison of cueing and tolerance to cueing, respectively, it would be more interesting to try and understand what is a scent cone.
And this is very right :
 All they (the dogs) know is they must find the scent, they don't know they have to sniff each car, its the handlers job to keep them on track.
Once they're in the scent cone (and often many crossing scent cones), the exhausting work is to determinate the source of it. Helping is one of the handler's tasks.

[ferryman]

Even if it was "unconscious", it is fraud since Mr Grime was supervised by Prof. Harrison.
Would Prof. Harrison have cheated the PJ ? But why ?
People don't do things unconsciously without a strong motive. What would be the motive of both Mr Grime and Prof Harrison ?
Why would they risk to destroy the high credit of the dogs ?
Instead of arbitrarily suspect Mr Grime and Prof Harrison of cueing and tolerance to cueing, respectively, it would be more interesting to try and understand what is a scent cone.
And this is very right :
 All they (the dogs) know is they must find the scent, they don't know they have to sniff each car, its the handlers job to keep them on track.
Once they're in the scent cone (and often many crossing scent cones), the exhausting work is to determinate the source of it. Helping is one of the handler's tasks.

From the report of the GNR dog handlers:

...it being appropriate for the handler not to know which apartment was chosen, so as not the be conditioned.

The GNR handlers knew all about the risks of bias influencing a handler's jdugment and interaction with his dog, and took precautions against that.

Why didn't Grime?

[Anna]

Even if it was "unconscious", it is fraud since Mr Grime was supervised by Prof. Harrison.
Would Prof. Harrison have cheated the PJ ? But why ?
People don't do things unconsciously without a strong motive. What would be the motive of both Mr Grime and Prof Harrison ?
Why would they risk to destroy the high credit of the dogs ?
Instead of arbitrarily suspect Mr Grime and Prof Harrison of cueing and tolerance to cueing, respectively, it would be more interesting to try and understand what is a scent cone.
And this is very right :
 All they (the dogs) know is they must find the scent, they don't know they have to sniff each car, its the handlers job to keep them on track.
Once they're in the scent cone (and often many crossing scent cones), the exhausting work is to determinate the source of it. Helping is one of the handler's tasks.

http://houndandthefound.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/coning.jpg
http://www.vsrda.org/how-scent-and-airflow-works