UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Alice Purjorick on December 02, 2018, 09:09:05 PM
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its basic science...so would you open the door or let a child die
Well I sure would not open a door and cause blow out that stood a chance of killing more folk.
The chances are the person would be dead anyway. Very few incidents involve the rescue of live persons mostly it's recovery of a corpse resultant from inhalation of fumes.
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Wonder how many have been trained to lie on the floor in the event of fire.
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Wonder how many have been trained to lie on the floor in the event of fire.
Very few I would imagine.
How many count the number of doors to the nearest fire exit after they check in to a hotel ?
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It has been educational to read what various people would do in the event of a fire in apartment 5A? Would you go in to rescue the kids or not?
Was it safer to leave the doors unlocked or would it have been better to have the kids in behind a deadlocked door?
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Well I sure would not open a door and cause blow out that stood a chance of killing more folk.
The chances are the person would be dead anyway. Very few incidents involve the rescue of live persons mostly it's recovery of a corpse resultant from inhalation of fumes.
TRY and think about it logically..a child is alive and at the window... Do you open the door or let the child die... Is it that difficult a question
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Wonder how many have been trained to lie on the floor in the event of fire.
What's the point in lying on the floor.. First instruction is get out and stay out....
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TRY and think about it logically..a child is alive and at the window... Do you open the door or let the child die... Is it that difficult a question
I have thought about it. Many times. Same answer. Don't feed the fire.
Don't try to do a job from ignorance or lack of the right tools and equipment. Arrogant, walk on water types are a bleedin' menace to those who know what they are about.
Letting off water/CO2 and powder extinguishers in a car park qualify you for putting out a paper fire in a wpb and not alot else.
Most people succeed in freezing themselves to the horn of CO2 extinguisher.
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I have thought about it. Many times. Same answer. Don't feed the fire.
Don't try to do a job from ignorance or lack of the right tools and equipment. Arrogant, walk on water types are a bleedin' menace to those who know what they are about.
Letting off water/CO2 and powder extinguishers in a car park qualify you for putting out a paper fire in a wpb and not alot else.
Most people succeed in freezing themselves to the horn of CO2 extinguisher.
So I would open the door and give the child the chance if survival... You would let the child die.. Cuz you know better.. What you have not taken into account is the severity of the fire
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It has been educational to read what various people who do in the event of a fire in apartment 5A? Would you go in to rescue the kids or not?
Was it safer to leave the doors unlocked or would it have been better to have the kids in behind a deadlocked door.
It seems according to sceptics... The correct procedure is for the children to lie on the floor and burn to death... Whilst the supporter option is to open the door and let the children out... Make of that what you will
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Very few I would imagine.
How many count the number of doors to the nearest fire exit after they check in to a hotel ?
I do.
I also check out theatres ... restaurants ... and all venues for escape routes.
All thanks to having a father who taught me how to abseil down a rope kept coiled on top of a wardrobe in the event of a house fire.
Also have a gadget in the car to cut seat belts if required as well as a fire extinguisher which used to be within reach of the driver's seat but with a smaller car now the boot ... which I have actually used on two occasions on behalf of others ... one the beginnings of an engine fire (I let the owner do that) and one a fire set by vandals outside a neighbour's garage (I did that one ... great fun).
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It seems according to sceptics... The correct procedure is for the children to lie on the floor and burn to death... Whilst the supporter option is to open the door and let the children out... Make of that what you will
What do the fire brigade advise?
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What's the point in lying on the floor.. First instruction is get out and stay out....
If you are unable to get out?
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What do the fire brigade advise?
It would of course depend in the severity of the fire
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If you are unable to get out?
So first option is to get out which involves opening a door
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It seems according to sceptics... The correct procedure is for the children to lie on the floor and burn to death... Whilst the supporter option is to open the door and let the children out... Make of that what you will
Or it seems that you make sweeping comments without actually knowing what other people really think.
Here is a fire safety sheet for parents and carers of children. It gives some very good advice.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/475173/Fire-Safety-for-Parents-and-Child-Carers.pdf
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Or it seems that you make sweeping comments without actually knowing what other people really think.
Here is a fire safety sheet for parents and carers of children. It gives some very good advice.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/475173/Fire-Safety-for-Parents-and-Child-Carers.pdf
Some of us don't need any advice on such simple matters... You don't let a child burn to death if you can help... A child within easy reach.. Do you open the door... Or Google for advice... LOL
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What do the fire brigade advise?
There was arecent fire in a tower block where the experts....fire brigade.....told occupants to stay in their apartments and wait to be rescued...many died who simply may have been able to walk out to safety....experts are not always right
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What do the fire brigade advise?
I'll ask my son.
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What do the fire brigade advise?
Don't leave young children unattended - under any circumstances in the first place.
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I know at work we had to assemble at a certain spot and the team leaders did a roll call for the staff in a certain department. It was never explained to me what anyone do if someone was missing from the list.
It would take anything up to 20 minutes for the fire brigade to arrive so there seemed to be plenty of time for local action to put the fire out if there really was one. Get out stay out seemed to be the main objective. Too bad if you were missing.
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Some of us don't need any advice on such simple matters... You don't let a child burn to death if you can help... A child within easy reach.. Do you open the door... Or Google for advice... LOL
Well seems you do lol - don't leave the door unlocked.
Advice don't leave them in the first place.
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Well seems you do lol - don't leave the door unlocked.
Advice don't leave them in the first place.
More lack of context....
I've posted many times children shouldn't be left... Might help if you read what the thread is, about before posting
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Don't leave young children unattended - under any circumstances in the first place.
Back in the real world. I was once a solo dad with 3 kids and I had no car. So I'd take the two older kids to school on the scooter and I'd leave the 3rd at home alone. One day a truck crashed and pulled the electric wires down and on my way back I could see smoke coming out of my street. Luckily the youngest didn't go outside with the live cables lying on the footpath.
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Well seems you do lol - don't leave the door unlocked.
Advice don't leave them in the first place.
Well there was more chance that the McCann kids would get out alive than the other families for they were able to open the doors, but the others were with deadlocked rooms. They would need their parents to arrive there with the key before the doors could be opened to rescue them.
I suppose in the normal run of events the chances of a house fire is more frequent than an abduction, so could it be argued it is better to have access to escape rather than being locked in.
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Did the Ocean Club insist on working smoke alarms in all the apartments rented out to clients?
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Well there was more chance that the McCann kids would get out alive than the other families for they were able to open the doors, but the others were with deadlocked rooms. They would need their parents to arrive there with the key before the doors could be opened to rescue them.
I suppose in the normal run of events the chances of a house fire is more frequent than an abduction, so could it be argued it is better to have access to escape rather than being locked in.
I can't believe that people are discussing the relative merits of locking or not locking doors when leaving small children home alone. Responsible parents never do that, so never need to make that choice. Somehow that group have normalised something which should never even have been considered.
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My son, as a Professional Fire Fighter, has refused to give any advice as to what ordinary people should do. He says that all situations are different. And to advise when not knowing the circumstances would be stupid, if not downright dangerous.
However, he feels that if opening a door would explode the fire then it is probably too late anyway, although not absolutely certainly. But you wouldn't know that until you opened the door.
So not much help, I'm afraid.
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My son, as a Professional Fire Fighter, has refused to give any advice as to what ordinary people should do. He says that all situations are different. And to advise when not knowing the circumstances would be stupid, if not downright dangerous.
However, he feels that if opening a door would explode the fire then it is probably too late anyway, although not absolutely certainly. But you wouldn't know that until you opened the door.
So not much help, I'm afraid.
So the expert advice is all situations are different which is absolutely correct..... As I've said it depends how bad the fire is....if it's a small fire it's safe to open a door... If it's raging... It obviously isnt
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Did the Ocean Club insist on working smoke alarms in all the apartments rented out to clients?
Very good question.
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Did the Ocean Club insist on working smoke alarms in all the apartments rented out to clients?
Would depend on what regulations applied at the time.
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Would depend on what regulations applied at the time.
Of course they had Smoke Alarms. I had Smoke alarms 15 years ago in a private house, in France.
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Of course they had Smoke Alarms. I had Smoke alarms 15 years ago in a private house, in France.
I didn't say that they didn't have smoke alarms - I mentioned REGULATIONS.
Do YOU know what regulations were in force for holiday properties in Portugal in 2007 ?
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So I would open the door and give the child the chance if survival... You would let the child die.. Cuz you know better.. What you have not taken into account is the severity of the fire
How would you know that ?
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I think in this day and age of health and safety you’d probably have to call 999 and watch the kids burn to death while waiting for the professionals to arrive.
You will be nominated for a Double Rip van Winkle award for that.
The Health And Safety At Work Act came in to being in 1974.
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You will be nominated for a Double Rip van Winkle award for that.
The Health And Safety At Work Act came in to being in 1974.
It may have Cone in in 74 but things have changed a lot since then..... In my experience there were no requirements for fire training in my profession until the last 10 years
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I didn't say that they didn't have smoke alarms - I mentioned REGULATIONS.
Do YOU know what regulations were in force for holiday properties in Portugal in 2007 ?
It was a Commercial Venue. Smoke Alarms would have been mandatory, probably from the building of, but certainly by 2007.
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More lack of context....
I've posted many times children shouldn't be left... Might help if you read what the thread is, about before posting
I did and was answering what RB posted about what advice the fire brigade would give.
I assume - this is how it would go
Q. what is best to do if you leave your toddlers alone in an apartment - lock or leave the door unlocked.
A. Don't leave them alone - they certainly wouldn't say oh best leave it unlocked
It could quite easily have happened - wonder what the support they would have got if it did.
Would you have been so supportive to them D - if there had of been a fire and they hadn't been accountable for the blame.
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The legal regime governing local accommodation, Decree-Law no. 128/2014, entered into force in November 2014.
Anyone offering holiday accommodation had to meet minimum standards. They were then inspected and licensed. Whether there were regulations before that I don't know.
https://www.alesclarecimentos.pt/legal/
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You will be nominated for a Double Rip van Winkle award for that.
The Health And Safety At Work Act came in to being in 1974.
Interesting. So have there not been any revisions in health and saftey legislation since then?
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I did and was answering what RB posted about what advice the fire brigade would give.
I assume - this is how it would go
Q. what is best to do if you leave your toddlers alone in an apartment - lock or leave the door unlocked.
A. Don't leave them alone - they certainly wouldn't say oh best leave it unlocked
It could quite easily have happened - wonder what the support they would have got if it did.
Would you have been so supportive to them D - if there had of been a fire and they hadn't been accountable for the blame.
Based on the evidence I think Maddie was abducted... I don't see that as supporting the McCann's childcare.... It's supporting justice IMO...
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The legal regime governing local accommodation, Decree-Law no. 128/2014, entered into force in November 2014.
Anyone offering holiday accommodation had to meet minimum standards. They were then inspected and licensed. Whether there were regulations before that I don't know.
https://www.alesclarecimentos.pt/legal/
Thank you 8((()*/
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Of course they had Smoke Alarms. I had Smoke alarms 15 years ago in a private house, in France.
I'm sure smoke alarms have been around a lot longer than Madeleine has been missing. So a smoke alarm turns itself off as well, so it could in some rear situation wake a child.
In my experience a smoke alarm with a flat battery makes a beeping sound particularly at night. It happened to me once and a felt like an idiot for I was blaming another recently installed electrical equipment.
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I did and was answering what RB posted about what advice the fire brigade would give.
I assume - this is how it would go
Q. what is best to do if you leave your toddlers alone in an apartment - lock or leave the door unlocked.
A. Don't leave them alone - they certainly wouldn't say oh best leave it unlocked
It could quite easily have happened - wonder what the support they would have got if it did.
Would you have been so supportive to them D - if there had of been a fire and they hadn't been accountable for the blame.
Somewhere it was discussed (by Amaral IIRC) that it wasn't possible to deadlock the doors from the outside, yet still enabling a person "locked" inside to be able to get out. But I have yet to see how that was done. Maybe the patio door access is what was meant. If you can't get out the front door there is still the back door provided you can get across to there in a burning building.
In fact isn't that the purpose of a deadlock, i.e. to make it more difficult to get out.
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It may have Cone in in 74 but things have changed a lot since then..... In my experience there were no requirements for fire training in my profession until the last 10 years
Scarcely the most definitive of arguments.
In my trade there has been such a requirement since 1988 , possibly earlier, and fire drills since 1960s
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Scarcely the most definitive of arguments.
In my trade there has been such a requirement since 1988 , possibly earlier, and fire drills since 1960s
its not an argument its a fact...a lot has changed in H&S since 74...in 76 we were putting used hypodermics in black bags and leaving them out for the bin man
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Somewhere it was discussed (by Amaral IIRC) that it wasn't possible to deadlock the doors from the outside, yet still enabling a person "locked" inside to be able to get out. But I have yet to see how that was done. Maybe the patio door access is what was meant. If you can't get out the front door there is still the back door provided you can get across to there in a burning building.
In fact isn't that the purpose of a deadlock, i.e. to make it more difficult to get out.
A deadlock's purpose is to stop unauthorised entry. Why would anyone want to stop inhabitants from getting out?
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Interesting. So have there not been any revisions in health and saftey legislation since then?
There have but section 7 is still the same.
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A deadlock's purpose is to stop unauthorised entry. Why would anyone want to stop inhabitants from getting out?
If burglars entered via a window, if the doors are deadlocked they are restricted in what they are able to take.
That is what I was thinking anyway.
"In the event of a fire, occupants will be prevented from escaping through double-cylinder locked doors unless the correct key is used. ... The risk can be mitigated by locking the deadlock only when there are no occupants inside the building, or leaving the key near the keyhole."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_bolt
But if the tenants are only supplied with the one key, if it is locked from the outside there can't be a "key near the keyhole".
"Safety
The double cylinder design raises a safety issue. In the event of a fire, occupants will be prevented from escaping through double-cylinder locked doors unless the correct key is used. This is often an avoidable cause of death in house fires.[4] The risk can be mitigated by locking the deadlock only when there are no occupants inside the building, or leaving the key near the keyhole. Some fire departments suggest putting the key on a small nail or screw near the door at floor level, since the cleanest air is at floor level and you may be crawling to get to the exit, thus placing the key where it is easiest to find.
Note that single cylinder dead locks (with an unlocked twist mechanism on the inside of the door) do not have this problem, and therefore are most commonly used on fire exits. Some areas have fire safety codes that do not allow a locked exit.[5][6]"
"Some areas have fire safety codes that do not allow a locked exit." That might have been what Amaral was commenting on. It may have been illegal to deadlock the doors with the kids inside. Therefore the McCanns may have been more compliant compared to the others of the group who most (if not all) say they deadlocked their children in the rooms while they were at dinner.
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Interesting. So have there not been any revisions in health and saftey legislation since then?
Yeah! CDM* Regs. But it's hard to see how that materially affects your original post.
* NB that is nothing to do with chocolate bars.
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If burglars entered via a window, if the doors are deadlocked they are restricted in what they are able to take.
That is what I was thinking anyway.
"In the event of a fire, occupants will be prevented from escaping through double-cylinder locked doors unless the correct key is used. ... The risk can be mitigated by locking the deadlock only when there are no occupants inside the building, or leaving the key near the keyhole."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_bolt
But if the tenants are only supplied with the one key, if it is locked from the outside there can't be a "key near the keyhole".
"Safety
The double cylinder design raises a safety issue. In the event of a fire, occupants will be prevented from escaping through double-cylinder locked doors unless the correct key is used. This is often an avoidable cause of death in house fires.[4] The risk can be mitigated by locking the deadlock only when there are no occupants inside the building, or leaving the key near the keyhole. Some fire departments suggest putting the key on a small nail or screw near the door at floor level, since the cleanest air is at floor level and you may be crawling to get to the exit, thus placing the key where it is easiest to find.
Note that single cylinder dead locks (with an unlocked twist mechanism on the inside of the door) do not have this problem, and therefore are most commonly used on fire exits. Some areas have fire safety codes that do not allow a locked exit.[5][6]"
I think that means deadlocking from inside and leaving key nearby.
Why would anyone want to deadlock a door from outside if people were inside the building?
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I think that means deadlocking from inside and leaving key nearby.
Why would anyone want to deadlock a door from outside if people were inside the building?
But that is what the other 3 families were doing. They double locked their doors from the outside to prevent their kids getting out while they were at dinner.
I think you have to determine what had the greatest risk. Was it house fire or being kidnapped?
Wandering off and getting lost is also a problem and I'd say that would rank fairly highly too.
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But that is what the other 3 families were doing. They double locked their doors from the outside to prevent their kids getting out while they were at dinner.
I think you have to determine what had the greatest risk. Was it house fire or being kidnapped?
Wandering off and getting lost is also a problem and I'd say that would rank fairly highly too.
Do any of them actually say that they double locked the doors ?
In any event their children would not have been capable of using a key, even if onr had been left
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Do any of them actually say that they double locked the doors ?
I'm sure they did.
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I'm sure they did.
I think you need a cite for that
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I think you need a cite for that
Russell: http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm
"On Sunday I recall I checked Kate and Gerry’s apartment as well as Rachael and Matt’s. I had taken Matt’s keys and I believe that their door was deadlocked the same as ours and that I would have needed to turn the key two times. We kept our shutters down, and the patio door was closed I am not sure whether theirs was the same. I recall that Kate and Gerry’s apartment was accessed by the patios door which was left closed and unlocked. I recall that their front door was accessed from the car-park access was easily gained to the apartment from the poolside."
So that is Matt and Russell deadlocking their doors. Whether David Payne describes his situation I can't recall.
David Payne: http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
"1485 "Yeah. So generally as a rule when you were ready to go, how would you leave the apartment''
Reply "Okay, so the, you know obviously the, err the bal, err the sliding doors and the balcony were always err shut err you know the monitor was always put in the position that we've err you know mentioned, which is you know on the floor between the two doors. Err and Fi would, you know, generally look after the monitor err the mobile unit and err and again as far as I can recall Dianne tended to be the most reliable to look after the key. Err and then you know so the door would be locked err you know you wouldn't be able to get in that door from the outside, ... "
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Thank you. 2 out of 3 is good enough 8((()*/
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You sort of wonder if the thought of what the kids would do in an emergency wasn't behind Kate and Gerry's thinking as remembered by Fiona Payne: http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
"Reply
'She did, she brought it up and that she, I mean, this is awful in retrospect as well, she asked what my opinion was on, erm, tut, on whether they were okay leaving the, the doors unlocked, because she was saying 'Is it better that if Madeleine wakes up she can get out and find us or', erm, 'or locking it and, you know, finding that we're not there and the door's locked if she woke up', because Madeleine had woken up, what I thought was the night before. Erm, tut, and it was in that context really, just asking, you know, what I thought. So it was obviously something that was on her mind a bit, huh'.
01.15.57
1485
'So she asked you what your thoughts were regarding locking''
Reply
'Yeah'.
1485
'Did she say whether she had locked or''
Reply
'No, that was the point, I think they said they'd left it, well she'd said she'd left it unlocked'."
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Fiona nearly admits to deadlocking her kids in here:
" 00.14.55
1485
'So single locked it when you went out and double locked it when you was in''
Reply
'No, we used to double lock when we were going in and out'.
1485
'In and out'."
I'd think you would find that against the fire regulations at the time. So the other 3 families may have been clearly breaking the Portuguese law, but no charges are laid against them.
I can see the difficulty here, what should be done? What is the best choice?
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I think that means deadlocking from inside and leaving key nearby.
Why would anyone want to deadlock a door from outside if people were inside the building?
I woke up one morning when we lived in Germany to find that me and the kids couldn't get out of the front door. Our neighbour had double-locked our door the night before and taken the keys with him. (I'd gone to bed and left him and my husband drinking) I was reduced to shouting out of the window to his kids to get him or his wife to let us out.
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I woke up one morning when we lived in Germany to find that me and the kids couldn't get out of the front door. Our neighbour had double-locked our door the night before and taken the keys with him. (I'd gone to bed and left him and my husband drinking) I was reduced to shouting out of the window to his kids to get him or his wife to let us out.
That is a very unusual situation. Letting someone else to lock your doors and then taking the keys.
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Here is a very informative video on what to do to survive a house fire. https://youtu.be/3m-g652uMBE
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I'd like to find one that explains what to do if you see people inside a burning building.
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I'd like to find one that explains what to do if you see people inside a burning building.
Call the fire brigade.
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Call the fire brigade.
The advice is get out... Which would involve opening a door.... So if the fire was not raging. Would you not open a door to let a child out
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The advice is get out... Which would involve opening a door.... So if the fire was not raging. Would you not open a door to let a child out
I was answering a question which implied I was outside and saw people inside a burning building. I would only be able to see them through a window, I assume. Anyone tall enough to be seen through a window is tall enough to open a door themselves and get out.
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I was answering a question which implied I was outside and saw people inside a burning building. I would only be able to see them through a window, I assume. Anyone tall enough to be seen through a window is tall enough to open a door themselves and get out.
No there could be children at a window standing on something.... I presume anyone with an ounce of sense would open a door to let the children out
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No there could be children at a window standing on something.... I presume anyone with an ounce of sense would open a door to let the children out
As the firefighter said, each situation would be different and require different responses.
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As the firefighter said, each situation would be different and require different responses.
Obviously and it's what I suggested before his opinion... If the fire is mild anyone with an ounce of sense would open the door
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I wonder if there would have been an outpouring of sympathy if the McCanns or one of the other families had lost a child/children due to fire? Would Portugal have been criticised for a slow response by it's fire brigade? Would the bereft parents have lobbied the European Parliament for stricter laws on fire safety and prevention? Ot would the parents have been blamed for leaving their children unsupervised?
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I wonder if there would have been an outpouring of sympathy if the McCanns or one of the other families had lost a child/children due to fire? Would Portugal have been criticised for a slow response by it's fire brigade? Would the bereft parents have lobbied the European Parliament for stricter laws on fire safety and prevention? Ot would the parents have been blamed for leaving their children unsupervised?
A fire would have been an accident and unlikely....... An abduction involves a crime.... If maddue, was, abducted as may well be the, reason for her disappearance the whole McCann family are victims of an awful crime
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I wonder if there would have been an outpouring of sympathy if the McCanns or one of the other families had lost a child/children due to fire? Would Portugal have been criticised for a slow response by it's fire brigade? Would the bereft parents have lobbied the European Parliament for stricter laws on fire safety and prevention? Ot would the parents have been blamed for leaving their children unsupervised?
Maybe a campaign to blame a phantom arsonist together with a fire-fighting fund.
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A fire would have been an accident and unlikely....... An abduction involves a crime.... If maddue, was, abducted as may well be the, reason for her disappearance the whole McCann family are victims of an awful crime
The child/children are still gone, and both scenarios are preventable.
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The child/children are still gone, and both scenarios are preventable.
As Ive described.. Ones an accident the other makes the whole family victims of a crime so they are quite different
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its not an argument its a fact...a lot has changed in H&S since 74...in 76 we were putting used hypodermics in black bags and leaving them out for the bin man
What has fire to do with hypodeemic nerdles?
You clearly worked in a funny profession that ignored its obligations under the Fire Prevention Act of 1971 and its replacement, Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005.
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What has fire to do with hypodeemic nerdles?
You clearly worked in a funny profession that ignored its obligations under the Fire Prevention Act of 1971 and its replacement, Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005.
Did these laws, apply to all businesses IR just those with a certain number of employees... The point is H&S.. are much more rigidly enforced now... There had been change
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As Ive described.. Ones an accident the other makes the whole family victims of a crime so they are quite different
Now back in the real world - you don't know the whole family is victims of a crime.
It is only yo - whereas it could be only maddie who is the victim of a crime IMO.
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Did these laws, apply to all businesses IR just those with a certain number of employees... The point is H&S.. are much more rigidly enforced now... There had been change
The point is that your contention that in your profession it was only during last ten years [ten years of what ? time? or your career?]any one took notice of their obligations under fire regs is clearly at variance with reality. Unless of course you retired pre 1981. Even then it would beg the question why was legislation ignored at all by your profession.
I suggest you read all the legislation it only goes back about a century so don't reply before about Friday.
Fire legislation does not come under the HSE unless it is a fire on a construction site.
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The point is that your contention that in your profession it was only during last ten years [ten years of what ? time? or your career?]any one took notice of their obligations under fire regs is clearly at variance with reality. Unless of course you retired pre 1981. Even then it would beg the question why was legislation ignored at all by your profession.
I suggest you read all the legislation it only goes back about a century so don't reply before about Friday.
Fire legislation does not come under the HSE unless it is a fire on a construction site.
I can reply now... It's only around the last ten years from today that the law Re fire training has been enforced in my profession...
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Now back in the real world - you don't know the whole family is victims of a crime.
It is only yo - whereas it could be only maddie who is the victim of a crime IMO.
Read the post again....
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As Ive described.. Ones an accident the other makes the whole family victims of a crime so they are quite different
When criminals are tried it is for the harm they caused to their victim, not their victim's family. The victim of any crime committed on 3rd May was Madeleine McCann.
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Read the post again....
Why the first time was bad enough
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When criminals are tried it is for the harm they caused to their victim, not their victim's family. The victim of any crime committed on 3rd May was Madeleine McCann.
Yes, anyone else affected is just collateral damage.
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When criminals are tried it is for the harm they caused to their victim, not their victim's family. The victim of any crime committed on 3rd May was Madeleine McCann.
You have obviously never heard of a victim impact statement given by family members.... Your post is just wrong
Under the revised (2015) Victims' Code, a "victim" is defined as:
A natural person who has suffered harm, including physical, mental or emotional harm or economic loss which was directly caused by a criminal offence;
A close relative of a person whose death was directly caused by a criminal offence. "Close relative" is defined as the spouse, the partner, the relatives in direct line, the siblings and the dependants of the victim. Other family members, including guardians and carers, may be considered close relatives at the discretion of the service provider.www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/victims-crime-code-practice-cps-legal-guidance
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Why the first time was bad enough
You need to read the post in context otherwise you won't understand it.
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When criminals are tried it is for the harm they caused to their victim, not their victim's family. The victim of any crime committed on 3rd May was Madeleine McCann.
What’s a victim impact statement for then, in cases involving murder?
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You have obviously never heard of a victim impact statement given by family members.... Your post is just wrong
Under the revised (2015) Victims' Code, a "victim" is defined as:
A natural person who has suffered harm, including physical, mental or emotional harm or economic loss which was directly caused by a criminal offence;
A close relative of a person whose death was directly caused by a criminal offence. "Close relative" is defined as the spouse, the partner, the relatives in direct line, the siblings and the dependants of the victim. Other family members, including guardians and carers, may be considered close relatives at the discretion of the service provider.www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/victims-crime-code-practice-cps-legal-guidance
Oh, snap!
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What’s a victim impact statement for then, in cases involving murder?
To make people feel better?
Just part of this new PC touchy-feely world we now live in.
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Yes, anyone else affected is just collateral damage.
So you wouldn’t describe the parents of the children murdered by Brady and Hindley,as victims of a crime then? Only as “collateral damage”?
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To make people feel better?
Just part of this new PC touchy-feely world we now live in.
So better get used to it. Parents of murdered or abducted children are classed as victims too.
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So you wouldn’t describe the parents of the children murdered by Brady and Hindley,as victims of a crime then? Only as “collateral damage”?
That's right.
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So better get used to it. Parents of murdered or abducted children are classed as victims too.
I shan't be losing any sleep over it.
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That's right.
How odd. IMO. Do you not think these parents were harmed by the actions of Brady and Hindley?
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How odd. IMO. Do you not think these parents were harmed by the actions of Brady and Hindley?
That's exactly what collateral damage is.
A consequence of some other action.
added. IMO
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That's exactly what collateral damage is.
A consequence of some other action.
It's injury inflicted on someone other than the intended target which makes that person a victim
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Telling a person what they need to do in order to understand something is an ad hominem argument.
"You need to read the post in the context it was made then you will understand it" is unacceptable IMO.
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Telling a person what they need to do in order to understand something is an ad hominem argument.
"You need to read the post in the context it was made then you will understand it" is unacceptable IMO.
It's not ad hom... It's explaining posts need to be read in context otherwise they will not be understood...
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To make people feel better?
Just part of this new PC touchy-feely world we now live in.
There's a whole body of study, apparently, called Victimology. I suppose that's why school friends of murdered children are counseled. We're all victims now.
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That's exactly what collateral damage is.
A consequence of some other action.
added. IMO
So if you are “collateral damage”, you are damaged by someone or something but are not a vicitim? If a drone attacks a terrorist cell and dead children are considered “collateral damage” they are not victims of a drone attack? Is that correct?
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There's a whole body of study, apparently, called Victimology. I suppose that's why school friends of murdered children are counseled. We're all victims now.
Do you think parents of murdered children should be offered counseling or should they just maintain a stiff upper lip and get on with it?
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So if you are “collateral damage”, you are damaged by someone or something but are not a vicitim? If a drone attacks a terrorist cell and dead children are considered “collateral damage” they are not victims of a drone attack? Is that correct?
The dead or injured would be victims of the drone, unharmed surviving relative would be collateral - IMO
Think we've drifted well off topic so shan't respond further on this.
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The dead or injured would be victims of the drone, unharmed surviving relative would be collateral - IMO
Think we've drifted well off topic so shan't respond further on this.
IMO you cannot be collateral damage without also being a victim.
“Collateral damage is the deaths, injuries, or other damage inflicted on an unintended target”.
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IMO you cannot be collateral damage without also being a victim.
“Collateral damage is the deaths, injuries, or other damage inflicted on an unintended target”.
What do you want to know about collateral damage?
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What do you want to know about collateral damage?
What do you want to tell me?
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Do you think parents of murdered children should be offered counseling or should they just maintain a stiff upper lip and get on with it?
Police FLO's carry the appropriate leaflets for bereaved families so they can see what's available to them. Obviously families and friends are traumatised and devastated, but usually they aren't the victims of the criminal, the child is. In my opinion to be a victim involves being targeted.
Claire Sykes, for example, was the target when her husband killed himself and their sons. His intention was to leave her with nothing; no children, no house and no money.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-29829354
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Police FLO's carry the appropriate leaflets for bereaved families so they can see what's available to them. Obviously families and friends are traumatised and devastated, but usually they aren't the victims of the criminal, the child is. In my opinion to be a victim involves being targeted.
Claire Sykes, for example, was the target when her husband killed himself and their sons. His intention was to leave her with nothing; no children, no house and no money.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-29829354
In my opinion you are quite wrong. It is entirely possible to be a victim without being targeted, say for example dying in a tsunami, unless you believe in acts of a vengeful God of course.
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In my opinion you are quite wrong. It is entirely possible to be a victim without being targeted, say for example dying in a tsunami, unless you believe in acts of a vengeful God of course.
A victim of a natural disaster, not a crime. I thought we were discussing whether Madeleine's family are victims of a crime.
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A victim of a natural disaster, not a crime. I thought we were discussing whether Madeleine's family are victims of a crime.
I thought we were discussing what it is to be a victim. You claim being targeted is an essential component of victimhood, I was pointing out that this is not true. If you are harmed by an act, intentional or not, you are a victim of said act. Losing a child and being unaware of her whereabouts for over 11 years is harmful to the chld’s parents, because of the anguish and despair it causes, which may and often does have long term repercussions for health and general well being. Look at the family of Sarah Payne for example and tell me that they were not victims of a dreadful crime, alongside their daughter, whose suffering was at least mercifully short.
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I thought we were discussing what it is to be a victim. You claim being targeted is an essential component of victimhood, I was pointing out that this is not true. If you are harmed by an act, intentional or not, you are a victim of said act. Losing a child and being unaware of her whereabouts for over 11 years is harmful to the chld’s parents, because of the anguish and despair it causes, which may and often does have long term repercussions for health and general well being. Look at the family of Sarah Payne for example and tell me that they were not victims of a dreadful crime, alongside their daughter, whose suffering was at least mercifully short.
There are three main theories about what happened to Madeleine McCann, but no proof. Until a crime is identified the only confirmed victim is Madeleine.
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There are three main theories about what happened to Madeleine McCann, but no proof. Until a crime is identified the only confirmed victim is Madeleine.
So if and when it is confirmed that Madeleine was abducted then we can certainly include the McCanns as victims of this terrible crime.
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So if and when it is confirmed that Madeleine was abducted then we can certainly include the McCanns as victims of this terrible crime.
I'm still quite uncomfortable with this definition of a victim. My viewpoint is clearer when looking at it from another angle;
victimisation
the action of singling someone out for cruel or unjust treatment.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=vicyimisation&oq=vicyimisation&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.7031j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
If Madeleine was abducted she was singled out, but it's quite possible that the abductor didn't give a thought to the effect on her wider family. In which case they are the victims of the circumstances, not of the crime. I began this discussion in answer to;
snip/
If maddue, was, abducted as may well be the, reason for her disappearance the whole McCann family are victims of an awful crime
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10493.msg506005#msg506005
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What’s a victim impact statement for then, in cases involving murder?
Please clarify.
I'm looking at the Dawson case in Australia.
Will a victim impact statement affect the jury verdict?
*&(+(+
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Please clarify.
I'm looking at the Dawson case in Australia.
Will a victim impact statement affect the jury verdict?
*&(+(+
I think you will find victim impact statement s are given after the verdict
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I'm still quite uncomfortable with this definition of a victim. My viewpoint is clearer when looking at it from another angle;
victimisation
the action of singling someone out for cruel or unjust treatment.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=vicyimisation&oq=vicyimisation&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.7031j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
If Madeleine was abducted she was singled out, but it's quite possible that the abductor didn't give a thought to the effect on her wider family. In which case they are the victims of the circumstances, not of the crime. I began this discussion in answer to;
snip/
If maddue, was, abducted as may well be the, reason for her disappearance the whole McCann family are victims of an awful crime
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10493.msg506005#msg506005
It's not really important what your personal views, are according to the justice system family members are victims if crime
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It's not really important what your personal views, are according to the justice system family members are victims if crime
Well when the crime has been identified we'll learn what their status is, won't we? Until then saying they are victims is an opinion, not a fact.
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Well when the crime has been identified we'll learn what their status is, won't we? Until then saying they are victims is an opinion, not a fact.
If you read my post... You will see what I have said and it is totally correct
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Well when the crime has been identified we'll learn what their status is, won't we? Until then saying they are victims is an opinion, not a fact.
I haven't said the McCann's are victims of crime... I have said... IF Maddie was abducted ...then they are victims of a crime... And have supplied cites to support it
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I'm still quite uncomfortable with this definition of a victim. My viewpoint is clearer when looking at it from another angle;
victimisation
the action of singling someone out for cruel or unjust treatment.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=vicyimisation&oq=vicyimisation&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.7031j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
If Madeleine was abducted she was singled out, but it's quite possible that the abductor didn't give a thought to the effect on her wider family. In which case they are the victims of the circumstances, not of the crime. I began this discussion in answer to;
snip/
If maddue, was, abducted as may well be the, reason for her disappearance the whole McCann family are victims of an awful crime
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10493.msg506005#msg506005
If your house is broken into and a burglar steals your priceless family mementos are you not a victim of a crime? How much more so then are you a victim if they take not your priceless family mementos but your irreplaceable daughter instead?
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Please stay within topic guys.
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There wasn’t a fire in Block 5. Has there ever been a fire in block 5? If not statistics, would indicate that having your child disappear into thin air is more likely to happen in Block 5 than a fire breaking out so why are we discussing this actually?
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There wasn’t a fire in Block 5. Has there ever been a fire in block 5? If not statistics, would indicate that having your child disappear into thin air is more likely to happen in Block 5 than a fire breaking out so why are we discussing this actually?
Apart from my son's completely useless advice, I have no idea.
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Apart from my son's completely useless advice, I have no idea.
I dint think your sons advice was useless.... Most experts like to have all the facts before giving opinions....
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There wasn’t a fire in Block 5. Has there ever been a fire in block 5? If not statistics, would indicate that having your child disappear into thin air is more likely to happen in Block 5 than a fire breaking out so why are we discussing this actually?
Do you have a cite for that VS? I don't believe your "statistics".
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I dint think your sons advice was useless.... Most experts like to have all the facts before giving opinions....
Thanks.
Actually, I was quite surprised by that he refused, but obviously he was ahead of me.
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Thanks.
Actually, I was quite surprised by that he refused, but obviously he was ahead of me.
He is.... Can you imagine if he offered advice... Which someone took...and it turned out badly..
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Do you have a cite for that VS? I don't believe your "statistics".
Do you want me to post a cite to a child disappearing from Apartment 5a?
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Do you want me to post a cite to a child disappearing from Apartment 5a?
Of course not just this. And what statistics would they be.
statistics, would indicate that having your child disappear into thin air is more likely to happen in Block 5 than a fire breaking out
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Of course not just this. And what statistics would they be.
statistics, would indicate that having your child disappear into thin air is more likely to happen in Block 5 than a fire breaking out
These statistics:
Fires in Apt 5a - 0
Children disappearing from Apt 5a - 1
You do realise my post was ever so slightly tongue-in-cheek don't you?
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He is.... Can you imagine if he offered advice... Which someone took...and it turned out badly..
I can now.
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There wasn’t a fire in Block 5. Has there ever been a fire in block 5? If not statistics, would indicate that having your child disappear into thin air is more likely to happen in Block 5 than a fire breaking out so why are we discussing this actually?
Looking at the whole country Number of house fires compared to the number of kidnappings, IMO house fire would exceed kidnappings but I have no actual figures
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Do you have a cite for that VS? I don't believe your "statistics".
You can't look at a single incident and make that your source of statistics IMO.
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You can't look at a single incident and make that your source of statistics IMO.
Yeah, like polling 2 people in an opinion poll and claiming it is significant @)(++(*
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Looking at the whole country Number of house fires compared to the number of kidnappings, IMO house fire would exceed kidnappings but I have no actual figures
(https://fullfact.org/media/uploads/Types_of_fires_pie.PNG)
https://fullfact.org/health/how-many-people-die-fires/
18% of 167,150 = 30087.
"A 2004 Home Office research study presented 798 police reports regarding child abduction in England and Wales. Of those reports, that 56% (447) involved a stranger, about 375 were attempted abductions while 72 were successful.[3]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidnapping_in_the_United_Kingdom
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(https://fullfact.org/media/uploads/Types_of_fires_pie.PNG)
https://fullfact.org/health/how-many-people-die-fires/
18% of 167,150 = 30087.
"A 2004 Home Office research study presented 798 police reports regarding child abduction in England and Wales. Of those reports, that 56% (447) involved a stranger, about 375 were attempted abductions while 72 were successful.[3]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidnapping_in_the_United_Kingdom
As I understand the leading cause of fatalities in house fires are those involving smoking... As the McCann's didn't... That has to be factored in
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Based on the evidence... No fires in 5a.... One child disappeared without trace
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Based on the evidence... No fires in 5a.... One child disappeared without trace
But the day before anything happened as a parent you need to look at the relative chances of the various possible events and fire must have the greatest risk of happening in the future.
So IMO the McCanns were more responsible than the others for they made provision for their kids to escape in case of fire.
It is illegal to deadlock the rooms with persons still inside. The PJ were told that happened but no action was taken against the other three families.