Author Topic: Is this another example of a potentially crucial error by the VRD handler?  (Read 39674 times)

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Offline Brietta

Re: Is this another example of a potentially crucial error by the VRD handler?
« Reply #120 on: August 09, 2018, 10:37:59 PM »
Unless, of course, your opinion is wrong and the handler's was correct. I have seen nothing which suggests that your opinion is more valid than his.

And isn't that the joy of internet discussion ... we are all experts on anything we decide we want to be ... sort of empowering in a way, I think.

Now let's us non-dog-expert civilians look at it from the point of view of a jury likewise made up of non-dog-expert civilians ... do we, the jury, make up our minds guided by the evidence of the prosecution witnesses or do we make up our minds guided by the evidence of the defence witnesses ... or do we take the revolutionary step of weighing one against the other and working it out for ourselves?

In my opinion in such a situation the dog handler would be asked to state the facts ... not his opinion ... and the facts are chiels that winna ding (beyond dispute).
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Sunny

Re: Is this another example of a potentially crucial error by the VRD handler?
« Reply #121 on: August 09, 2018, 10:39:23 PM »
I can see that the dog's nose is at the end of the sofa prior to the alert. The dog by-passes the area to which Grime stated the alert related to - you can see the movement of the curtains behind the sofa, then see the dog's nose, then see the dog's tail after it turns around & barks.
Can you show what evidence there is that Eddie was alerting to the location Grime stated any more than you can show what evidence there was Eddie alerted to CC - apart from the word of the handler?

Are you doubting the word of the professional handler Misty?
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Offline misty

Re: Is this another example of a potentially crucial error by the VRD handler?
« Reply #122 on: August 09, 2018, 10:51:24 PM »
Unless, of course, your opinion is wrong and the handler's was correct. I have seen nothing which suggests that your opinion is more valid than his.

My opinion may be wrong but the video doesn't lie - and to the best of my knowledge no-one on internet fora has ever discussed this issue before, let alone the PJ back in 2007.

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Is this another example of a potentially crucial error by the VRD handler?
« Reply #123 on: August 09, 2018, 11:18:03 PM »
1)And isn't that the joy of internet discussion ... we are all experts on anything we decide we want to be ... sort of empowering in a way, I think.

2)Now let's us non-dog-expert civilians look at it from the point of view of a jury likewise made up of non-dog-expert civilians ... do we, the jury, make up our minds guided by the evidence of the prosecution witnesses or do we make up our minds guided by the evidence of the defence witnesses ... or do we take the revolutionary step of weighing one against the other and working it out for ourselves?

In my opinion in such a situation the dog handler would be asked to state the facts ... not his opinion ... and the facts are chiels that winna ding (beyond dispute).

1) Provided one is cognisant of the age old advice; "To you the poster may be an expert, others may think the poster is an expert but to an expert he's no expert".

2)That will not necessarily apply in Portugal.The court has the option to appoint its own expert to give explanation to the court if the judge deems it necessary.
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline Brietta

Re: Is this another example of a potentially crucial error by the VRD handler?
« Reply #124 on: August 09, 2018, 11:25:44 PM »
My opinion may be wrong but the video doesn't lie - and to the best of my knowledge no-one on internet fora has ever discussed this issue before, let alone the PJ back in 2007.

I've not seen it mentioned let alone discussed and I thought there was nothing left to say about 'the dogs' ... seems there is still plenty of mileage in it yet.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline misty

Re: Is this another example of a potentially crucial error by the VRD handler?
« Reply #125 on: August 10, 2018, 12:34:13 AM »
Are you doubting the word of the professional handler Misty?

Based on video evidence - yes.

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Is this another example of a potentially crucial error by the VRD handler?
« Reply #126 on: August 10, 2018, 05:30:10 AM »
Based on video evidence - yes.
Even the best of them will make the odd mistake.  Think of the video referee situation, the ref on the field doesn't get it right all the time.  Grime should have reviewed the video as well.  The end of the sofa may have been given a more thorough check.  The case could have progressed.  Who knows and too late now.
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Offline G-Unit

Re: Is this another example of a potentially crucial error by the VRD handler?
« Reply #127 on: August 10, 2018, 07:03:13 AM »
I asked if those 2 alerts by Keela were fortuitous rather than based on what Grime believed Eddie had alerted to. We will never know what forensics may have been harvested from the end of the sofa because the opportunity was missed.

When you can prove that Eddie's nose position is connected to his alerts you might have a point. In my opinion that's not how Eddie worked.
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: Is this another example of a potentially crucial error by the VRD handler?
« Reply #128 on: August 10, 2018, 09:00:22 AM »
When you can prove that Eddie's nose position is connected to his alerts you might have a point. In my opinion that's not how Eddie worked.
Well how do you know what he is alerting to?
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Offline G-Unit

Re: Is this another example of a potentially crucial error by the VRD handler?
« Reply #129 on: August 10, 2018, 09:16:46 AM »
Well how do you know what he is alerting to?

He alerts to the things he was trained to find;

Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.R.D.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood in any environment or terrain.....

The dog will alert to the presence of cadaver scent whether it is at source or some distance away from a deposition site.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: Is this another example of a potentially crucial error by the VRD handler?
« Reply #130 on: August 10, 2018, 09:25:03 AM »
He alerts to the things he was trained to find;

Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.R.D.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood in any environment or terrain.....

The dog will alert to the presence of cadaver scent whether it is at source or some distance away from a deposition site.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
That makes it sound as if Eddie could be 100 metres from the deposition site and still alert.  It seems to depend on where he picks up the scent in the air not the location of the deposit.
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Offline G-Unit

Re: Is this another example of a potentially crucial error by the VRD handler?
« Reply #131 on: August 10, 2018, 09:43:23 AM »
That makes it sound as if Eddie could be 100 metres from the deposition site and still alert.  It seems to depend on where he picks up the scent in the air not the location of the deposit.

Which is why, in my opinion, the position of his nose just before he alerts means nothing.
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Offline Brietta

Re: Is this another example of a potentially crucial error by the VRD handler?
« Reply #132 on: August 10, 2018, 11:21:10 AM »
That makes it sound as if Eddie could be 100 metres from the deposition site and still alert.  It seems to depend on where he picks up the scent in the air not the location of the deposit.

Very much a blunt instrument as opposed to a precision tool then which is fine if there is actually something there to be found as the source and the location will be immediately obvious.

In a more esoteric situation when there is nothing there to be found and where there may never have been anything there to be found ... the importance of the exact point of reference is critical in my opinion.

When there is an indication but there nothing visible to prompt that indication  ... Martin Grime is on record on numerous occasions including his report on Jersey, as stating that dog indications must be backed up by forensics.

Misty has noted that even in the close confines of the sofa and around it there is absolutely no way of knowing exactly why Eddie was barking.

I don't think second guessing a dog is a great idea ... particularly if it results in flawed conclusions which are specifically contrary to the professional advice given by the dog's handler.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline misty

Re: Is this another example of a potentially crucial error by the VRD handler?
« Reply #133 on: August 10, 2018, 11:45:26 AM »
Which is why, in my opinion, the position of his nose just before he alerts means nothing.

How does that explain the alerts to specific items of clothing & the garden alert where Grime even picked up something from the ground?

Offline misty

Re: Is this another example of a potentially crucial error by the VRD handler?
« Reply #134 on: August 10, 2018, 11:47:01 AM »
He alerts to the things he was trained to find;

Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.R.D.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood in any environment or terrain.....

The dog will alert to the presence of cadaver scent whether it is at source or some distance away from a deposition site.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

And if there is no deposition site?