The trial of Leonor and João Cipriano for the murder of Joana.

[John]

Explain this Eleanor?

26 September 2004

However , Joana's mother , Leonor Cipriano , who was heard between 21:30 and about 00:00 , came to confess to the murder of her daughter . The woman however justified that it was an accident , saying that she had given a slap to the child who had hit her head on a wall, falling unconscious.
Leonor Cipriano said to have been bewildered and panicked at the prospect of killing her daughter , so decided to wrap the girl's body in a cloth and put her in a plastic bag . She then asked the help of her brother to dispose of the body of her own daughter , which she said came to pass at a site in the vicinity of the house.

http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/nacional/atualidade/mae-confessa-morte-da-filha-por-acidente

[John]

Could you provide the links to the articles in the daily rags in question? I thought that we were supposed to try to back up assertions as far as possible.

http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/search.aspx?pesquisa=leonor+cipriano&date_de=&date_ate=&filt=&order=&page=27&pagres=10

[Eleanor]

Explain this Eleanor?

26 September 2004

However , Joana's mother , Leonor Cipriano , who was heard between 21:30 and about 00:00 , came to confess to the murder of her daughter . The woman however justified that it was an accident , saying that she had given a slap to the child who had hit her head on a wall, falling unconscious.
Leonor Cipriano said to have been bewildered and panicked at the prospect of killing her daughter , so decided to wrap the girl's body in a cloth and put her in a plastic bag . She then asked the help of her brother to dispose of the body of her own daughter , which she said came to pass at a site in the vicinity of the house.

http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/nacional/atualidade/mae-confessa-morte-da-filha-por-acidente

On what date was Leonor taken to the police station and allegedly beaten for several hours?

Was she threatened with beating before that date?

Why was she beaten later if she had already confessed?

This simply does not make sense.

CdM is worse even than The Daily Star.

Please don't shout.  It does nothing to convince me.

However, do with me as you wish.  I have no idea why you should think that I would care.  This is just a Forum.

[Carana]

25 sept 2004 - THIS MOTHER SHOULD BE DEAD

The alleged murderers (mother and uncle) Joan were conducted yesterday afternoon at the Court of Portimão to be present at court for criminal prosecution, and was greeted by hundreds of angry people who had gathered at the site. "Assassins" was the word shouted in unison by the popular indignation while the two suspects went through the doors of the building under heavy police escort.

The interrogation of the child's uncle , John Cipriano , has ended after 20.00 and will result in the confession of crime by this , according to a source close to the process. The individual had spent the night at the Prison of Faro.
The judge then heard the child's mother , Leonor Cipriano , who spent the night in the dungeons of the Judicial Police of Faro. The process leading to the implementation of coercive measures dragged into the night .
The two detainees were subject to major security measures by the PSP , which highlighted about 30 officers to the scene, including two dozen members of the Body of Intervention . The arrival of detainees , which was scheduled for 10:00 am, just came to check up around 15:00 , when they were still engaged in many popular place to see up close the two alleged perpetrators of the murder that shocked the country
The authorities were able , however , to fool most people concentrated at the Court . While a mobile car entered the garage at high speed , attracting general attention , the mother and uncle of Joana were sent to the front door , surrounded by members of the Body of Intervention PSP . Thus , individuals were able to escape the popular anger .
During this time , the road around the Court has truly become chaotic , with tailbacks to accumulate in the adjacent streets . Nevertheless , many people insisted on passing car at the site to see the awesome police apparatus placed there .
Many motorists even ended up parking the car nearby, joining the cluster of people waiting for the arrival of suspected death of Joan .
MORE THAN A DEATH
For Maria Amelia , one of the people who was at the Court of Portimão , " that mother deserves more than death " , stressing that "it is the fault of the rulers , since there must be popular justice " . And he confesses : "I always suspected the fault of this woman , because no one can be so cold before the disappearance of a child ."
Beside her , a lady gave an draws near : " They did what they did and are still protected by the authorities , something that they do not deserve ."
John Pacheco was the other popular that showed " shocked and disgusted " with the crime , because the girl knew by sight , by the time she attended the School of Sales in Portimão.
" She was and uncle were to be hanged , if indeed done what it says " , defended in turn Anthony Hunter . Despite his already advanced age , this popular collateral " have never in my life seen such a shocking case like this ."
In the crowd there were also those who still refuse to believe that any mother would be committing an act of that gravity. It was the case of Joseph Francis , who claimed still expect " everything was confirmed ."
Everywhere , the voices that were heard could not be more critical of the alleged perpetrators of the crime , insisting the majority of the popular need for stiffer penalties for such cases and even popular justice .
The many hundreds of people who were at the Court began to demobilize the evening , when the doors of the court were closed and police contingent was raised .
STEPFATHER WAS HEARD BY THE JUDICIAL
" Nobody knows what I 'm going through . Still do not believe this is happening to me , "he said yesterday, the CM , the stepfather of Joan Little , the ex- Faro Directorate of the Judicial Police ( PJ ) which was heard by inspectors SRCB all morning . António Leandro , who abandoned the premises of the PJ moments after his partner , Leonor Cipriano be taken in a civilian car to the Court of Portimão , refused to provide more statements about the case , though he admits not believe that the woman is implicated in the murder. For the stepfather of the murdered girl , the two detained only uncle of the child would be able to practice the act , as it possessed criminal records , including attempted murder of a family . According to PJ , the possible involvement of Leandro in girl's death is so far away .
LEONOR exonerate BROTHER TRIED
ww MAGDALENE BENTES
During the first interrogation in the Directorate of Faro PJ , Leonor Cipriano have tried to exonerate her brother , responsible for the effect her own husband . The CM was found that the woman will initially said the stepfather to carry out the body of Joan outside the housing version that will easily have been cleared by the PJ as António Leandro was in a cafe in the village during the period in which it was committed the crime . Leonor and her brother are, moreover , the only two occupants of the home when Joan arrived on the night of the 12th, coming from shopping. In possession of the girl would not have more than ten euros , an amount required by his uncle , who fall on suspicion of having been the main author of the aggressions inflicted on the lowest that have been removed from the scene lifeless . This is at least a strong suspicion Inspectors Regional Chamber Against Gangsterism ( SRCB ) the PJ in Faro , after detecting traces inside the house of the action taken by the mother and uncle .
Doubts remain however until the discovery of the corpse , when it will also be possible to determine the possible use of bladed weapons , which could have caused serious injury to the lowest since according to PJ , the intention of the two murderers have been the same for kill the child . At issue was the attempt on the part of both economies to extort the girl who used to receive money from relatives , especially the paternal grandparents .
Yesterday , inspectors of the PJ in Faro SRCB continued to hear people near the small Joan since the investigations , classified as very complex , will continue until the full investigation of the case.


25 Sept 2004 - MOTHER OF JOAN ON PROBATION

Leonor Cipriano, the suspected death of their daughter Joana Guerreiro, 8 years, will remain in custody, according to the decision of the court of Portimão enacted in the early hours of Saturday. His brother, João Cipriano, is obligated to periodic presentations to the authorities.

The two alleged murderers, accused of killing Joanna, which occurred on September 12, in the village of Figueira, near Portimão, the Court left the premises at about 2:45 a.m., where they were heard from the evening of Friday.
Joan's body remains undiscovered, the authorities have resumed the search operations this Saturday.

http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/ultima-hora/mae-de-joana-em-prisao-preventiva

Thanks for that. According to that link (dated 25 September 2004, 13h57), it seems to state that she would continue to be held on remand.



MÃE DE JOANA EM PRISÃO PREVENTIVA

Leonor Cipriano, suspeita da morte de sua filha Joana Guerreiro, de 8 anos, vai permanecer em prisão preventiva, segundo a decisão do tribunal de Portimão decretada na madrugada deste sábado. O seu irmão, João Cipriano, fica obrigado a apresentações periódicas às autoridades.

Os dois alegados homicidas, acusados da morte de Joana, ocorrida no dia 12 de Setembro, na aldeia de Figueira, perto de Portimão, deixaram as instalações do Tribunal cerca das 2h45, onde foram ouvidos desde a tarde de sexta-feira.
O corpo de Joana continua por encontrar, tendo as autoridades retomado as operações de busca este sábado.


One thing at a time perhaps. Where does it state that she was allowed home every day between 21- 24 Sept.?

[Anna]

Can't we just talk about this, without people getting overheated. We were going through the so called evidence of the trial. And items associated

[Eleanor]

Okay, I am out.  Sorry if I got overheated about what I consider to be bordering on the obscene.

[John]

I have removed that article Carana as there is far too much material to clutter this thread.  I think the best thing is for me to compile a list of articles in the lead up to the arrest and detention of Leonor Cipriano so that readers can see for themselves how it all developed.

We have to be guided by the events which occurred Eleanor.  I understand your passion for this case but we must stick to the facts.

[Carana]

I have removed that article Carana as there is far too much material to clutter this thread.  I think the best thing is for me to compile a list of articles in the lead up to the arrest and detention of Leonor Cipriano so that readers can see for themselves how it all developed.

We have to be guided by the events which occurred Eleanor.  I understand your passion for this case but we must stick to the facts.

Ok. It might be useful to distinguish between the media frenzy prior to the trial, what was actually reported during the trial and to compare that with the official documents.

[Carana]

In terms of the few facts...

Is anyone disputing that she disappeared on the evening of 12 Sept 2004?

[John]

Ok. It might be useful to distinguish between the media frenzy prior to the trial, what was actually reported during the trial and to compare that with the official documents.

I completely agree.

[Redblossom]

For people who think this was an unsafe conviction for one or both ofthe parties, what do you belive happened?
- leonor is innocent, her brother killed joana
- leonor is innocent but knows her brother killed joana and is complicit in covering up
-leonor is innocent, her brother sold joana, with or without her covering for him
- leonor is complicit with her brother  in agreeing to sell joana
- leonor could well be guilty alone in killing joana, joao is innocent but possibly guilty of disposal of the body
-leonor could well be guilty along with her brother in killing joana
- joana was abducted by a total stranger
- another family member or friend abducted or killed her
- any other options?


Hard to tell categorically with the plethora of stories and changed versions they gave over the years and some of the witness statements
 >@@(*&)


How many appeals have they been through?

Anyone know if their sentences are minimum tariffs? Or could they get out after serving,say,half..


Edited

[Mr Gray]

Again posters want to believe there is evidence but to quote a tabloid story as supporting evidence is bizarre. it just shows again there is no real evidence

[John]

Again posters want to believe there is evidence but to quote a tabloid story as supporting evidence is bizarre. it just shows again there is no real evidence

Well if you take her own admission, her attempts to exonerate her brother and all the circumstantial evidence I am not in the least surprised that the jury unanimously found her guilty.

Joana's body lies somewhere and that for me is the really sad fact in this case.  No wonder Gonçalo Amaral pays homage to her every year on 12 September.

[Anna]

For people who think this was an unsafe conviction for one or both ofthe parties, what do you belive happened?
- leonor is innocent, her brother killed joana
- leonor is innocent but knows her brother killed joana and is complicit in covering up
-leonor is innocent, her brother sold joana, with or without her covering for him
- leonor is complicit with her brother  in agreeing to sell joana
- leonor could well be guilty alone in killing joana
-leonor could well be guilty along with her brother in killing joana
- joana was abducted
- another family member or friend abducted or killed her


Hard to tell categorically with the plethora of stories and changed versions they gave over the years and some of the witness statements
 >@@(*&)

It is a difficult one RB. That's why I am sifting through the evidence to find a tell-tale ,without the help of the hate that was stirred up in the people by police information leaks at the time. They were already condemned before they went to trial.

[Redblossom]

It is a difficult one RB. That's why I am sifting through the evidence to find a tell-tale ,without the help of the hate that was stirred up in the people by police information leaks at the time. They were already condemned before they went to trial.

thanks Anna, appreciate all the hard work youve done....just trying to think of how many parents arrested charged and convicted  for the murder/accidental killingharm/that lead to death of their kids were innocent in the end.....its an extremely rare occurrence...so rare I dont think theres enough decimal places when writing a percentage....still......