Jeremy Corbyn for PM!!

[Eleanor]

Why didn’t your half brother like Israel ?

I suspect that it might have looked too much like hard work and his mother didn't raise him with that idea in mind.  Most Jewish mothers don't.

Reclaiming a desert is hardly easy.  I would have loved it if only I'd had the courage.  I joined The Navy instead and took to mending aeroplanes.  The Royal Navy had no gender bias even that long ago.

[faithlilly]

I suspect that it might have looked too much like hard work and his mother didn't raise him with that idea in mind.  Most Jewish mothers don't.

Reclaiming a desert is hardly easy.  I would have loved it if only I'd had the courage.  I joined The Navy instead and took to mending aeroplanes.  The Royal Navy had no gender bias even that long ago.

Be careful Eleanor, your second sentence could be considered [ censored word]emitic.

[Eleanor]

Be careful Eleanor, your second sentence could be considered [ censored word]emitic.

Good Heavens.  What a hoot.  How would that be?  I have great admiration for what The Jews did with Israel.  They didn't just deserve it.  They earned it.  While The Arabs in general sat on their backsides and complained about poverty.

I however, will never forget being subjected in school to a film of the liberation of The Death Camps.  I was eight years old.  I have never quite recovered.  While Germany was not subjected to this for a very long time afterwards.  By which time they had all reinvented themselves.  Not my fault.  It was my deluded Dad who wasn't a Nazi anyway  Really? 
With the size of The German Army who weren't Nazis you have to wonder why they didn't win.  But that is another story, and I know that one as well.

I know what Britain tried to do to Israel.

[Venturi Swirl]

Splitting hairs ? The Israeli people are, as I have pointed out, a fifth Arab so why would I compare the Israeli people to the Nazis ?

I have provided evidence that the Israeli government is acting in much the same way as the Nazis did during their rise to power, Amnesty International agree. That many Israeli Jews agree with me and not you is also testament to that truth. That you don’t is, unfortunately, testament to your bias.

The end ? You have tried to misrepresent my argument and now you attempt to shut down the debate when you see your position is untenable. Same old tactics, different subject.

So you admit you compared Israel to the Nazis.  According to the IHRA’s working definition of [ censored word]emitism which Jeremy Corbyn’s Labour Party eventually signed up to, one of the examples of anti semitism is as follows:
“ Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis”.

https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/working-definition-[ censored word]emitism

Therefore this proves that by the internationally accepted definition of [ censored word]emitism Faithlilly has expressed [ censored word]emitic views.  Now, do you want to keep on doing this, because I am happy to keep on hammering this point home for as long as you like.   

[Venturi Swirl]

Be careful Eleanor, your second sentence could be considered [ censored word]emitic.

[faithlilly]

So you admit you compared Israel to the Nazis.  According to the IHRA’s working definition of [ censored word]emitism which Jeremy Corbyn’s Labour Party eventually signed up to, one of the examples of anti semitism is as follows:
“ Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis”.

https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/working-definition-[ censored word]emitism

Therefore this proves that by the internationally accepted definition of [ censored word]emitism Faithlilly has expressed [ censored word]emitic views.  Now, do you want to keep on doing this, because I am happy to keep on hammering this point home for as long as you like.

‘Its adoption of the concept of new [ censored word]emitism, specifically connecting some criticism of Israel with [ censored word]emitism, has generated controversy.[14][15] High-profile controversies took place in the United Kingdom in 2011 within the University and College Union[16][17] and within the Labour Party in 2018. The definition has been contested by scholars of [ censored word]emitism for conflating [ censored word]emitism with criticism of the Israeli government, obstructing campaigning for the rights of Palestinians and being so vague as to fail the test of any definition – to be definitive. These include Brian Klug,[18] David Feldman,[19] and Antony Lerman;[12] jurists including Hugh Tomlinson,[20] Stephen Sedley,[21] Geoffrey Bindman,[22] and Geoffrey Robertson;[23] and one of the original drafters Kenneth S. Stern has opposed the misuse of the definition to suppress and limit free speech’

Btw how many countries have actually formally endorsed or adopted the IHRA definition of anti-semitism...17 I believe. The IHRA has 31 members.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_Definition_of_[ censored word]emitism

[Venturi Swirl]

‘However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as [ censored word]emitic.’

If any government had brought in the kind of policies the Israeli government has I’d use the same comparison.

‘Its adoption of the concept of new [ censored word]emitism, specifically connecting some criticism of Israel with [ censored word]emitism, has generated controversy.[14][15] High-profile controversies took place in the United Kingdom in 2011 within the University and College Union[16][17] and within the Labour Party in 2018. The definition has been contested by scholars of [ censored word]emitism for conflating [ censored word]emitism with criticism of the Israeli government, obstructing campaigning for the rights of Palestinians and being so vague as to fail the test of any definition – to be definitive. These include Brian Klug,[18] David Feldman,[19] and Antony Lerman;[12] jurists including Hugh Tomlinson,[20] Stephen Sedley,[21] Geoffrey Bindman,[22] and Geoffrey Robertson;[23] and one of the original drafters Kenneth S. Stern has opposed the misuse of the definition to suppress and limit free speech’

Btw how many countries have actually formally endorsed or adopted the IHRA definition of anti-semitism...17 I believe. The IHRA has 31 members.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_Definition_of_[ censored word]emitism

This thread is about your hero Jeremy Corbyn.  He stood accused of failing to tackle anti-semitism in the Labour Party.  He did at least finally agree to adopt the IHRA’s definition of [ censored word]emitism, which includes the part about comparing Israel to Nazis.  Do you think when he signed up to this he had his fingers crossed?
You do understand that the Nazis killed 6 million Jews and that by comparing Israel to the organisation that wanted their people wiped off the face of the planet that this is extraordinarily offensive?  Perhaps you’re simply not sensitive enough to understand how offensive this is to Israelis whose relatives suffered at the hands of the Nazis, to see their national flag altered to show the star of David as a swastika, a flag which has been seen flying at rallies at which your hero has spoken incidentally.

[faithlilly]

This thread is about your hero Jeremy Corbyn.  He stood accused of failing to tackle anti-semitism in the Labour Party.  He did at least finally agree to adopt the IHRA’s definition of [ censored word]emitism, which includes the part about comparing Israel to Nazis.  Do you think when he signed up to this he had his fingers crossed?
You do understand that the Nazis killed 6 million Jews and that by comparing Israel to the organisation that wanted their people wiped off the face of the planet that this is extraordinarily offensive?  Perhaps you’re simply not sensitive enough to understand how offensive this is to Israelis whose relatives suffered at the hands of the Nazis, to see their national flag altered to show the star of David as a swastika, a flag which has been seen flying at rallies at which your hero has spoken incidentally.

Let’s not get sidetracked. Even one of the drafters of the IHRA definition of [ censored word]emitism has opposed the misuse of the definition to suppress criticism of Israel. Indeed scholars on [ censored word]emitism have also criticised the definition for conflating [ censored word]emitism with criticism of Israel.

As I have already said many Israelis whose relatives perished in the holocaust vehemently oppose their government’s actions towards the Palestinian people. The altered Star of David is of course offensive but that has nothing with me or Corbyn for that matter, it just more emotive rhetoric written to imply collective guilt. At rallies many flags are waved, some offensive to certain groups....that does not mean everyone attending the rally is collectively guilty. Now if Corbyn had held the flag aloft you may have a point....is that what you are saying ?

[faithlilly]

More interesting articles on the IHRA definition of [ censored word]emitism.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/27/[ censored word]emitism-ihra-definition-jewish-writers


https://freespeechonisrael.org.uk/ihra-opinion/#sthash.6rrKpKUy.dpbs

[Venturi Swirl]

Let’s not get sidetracked. Even one of the drafters of the IHRA definition of [ censored word]emitism has opposed the misuse of the definition to suppress criticism of Israel. Indeed scholars on [ censored word]emitism have also criticised the definition for conflating [ censored word]emitism with criticism of Israel.

As I have already said many Israelis whose relatives perished in the holocaust vehemently oppose their government’s actions towards the Palestinian people. The altered Star of David is of course offensive but that has nothing with me or Corbyn for that matter, it just more emotive rhetoric written to imply collective guilt. At rallies many flags are waved, some offensive to certain groups....that does not mean everyone attending the rally is collectively guilty. Now if Corbyn had held the flag aloft you may have a point....is that what you are saying ?

Did I say he held the flag aloft?  No.  Did I say criticism of Israel was [ censored word]emitic?  No.  It is abundantly clear what I am saying, I have said it over and over again, and everytime you erect a strawman against it.  Here it is again.  To compare Israel to the Nazis is [ censored word]emitic, as per the IHRA’s guidelines, the same ones that Jeremy Corbyn’s Labour Party eventually signed up to.  Now, shall we keep on going?

[Venturi Swirl]

Not quite holding the flag aloft, but not far off...

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/jeremy-corbyn/news/105689/jeremy-corbyn-fresh-anti-semitism

[Miss Taken Identity]

Good Heavens.  What a hoot.  How would that be?  I have great admiration for what The Jews did with Israel.  They didn't just deserve it.  They earned it.  While The Arabs in general sat on their backsides and complained about poverty.

I however, will never forget being subjected in school to a film of the liberation of The Death Camps.  I was eight years old.  I have never quite recovered.  While Germany was not subjected to this for a very long time afterwards.  By which time they had all reinvented themselves.  Not my fault.  It was my deluded Dad who wasn't a Nazi anyway  Really? 
With the size of The German Army who weren't Nazis you have to wonder why they didn't win.  But that is another story, and I know that one as well.

I know what Britain tried to do to Israel.

"While The Arabs in general sat on their backsides and complained about poverty."

I think this is a distorted biased version.

I think you will find that many Arabs who were BORN in The land Israel, around Jerusalem before 1945, had homes and businesses, and schools. They were not very happy at being thrown out of their homes and businesses by interlopers from Europe.

The Arabs may or may not have known about the Jews horrendous plight in Europe and how they felt they had to leave, never to return to their natural homes, but the Arabs were quite natural to be suspicious of such people, and even now the right wing fundamentalist jews within the Government claim land which isn't theirs for new settlers coming from abroad.

Without being anti -semite, call a spade a spade, and it is ethnic cleansing as what happened to the Jewish population in Germany and most Europe.
 
 The whole situation was handled very badly and I blame the UK government at that time!

I can criticize my own government but cannot do so to a foreign one?  they make rules and laws in MY country. I don't think so! 

[faithlilly]

Not quite holding the flag aloft, but not far off...

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/jeremy-corbyn/news/105689/jeremy-corbyn-fresh-anti-semitism

So not even near the offensive banners.

[faithlilly]

Did I say he held the flag aloft?  No.  Did I say criticism of Israel was [ censored word]emitic?  No.  It is abundantly clear what I am saying, I have said it over and over again, and everytime you erect a strawman against it.  Here it is again.  To compare Israel to the Nazis is [ censored word]emitic, as per the IHRA’s guidelines, the same ones that Jeremy Corbyn’s Labour Party eventually signed up to.  Now, shall we keep on going?

‘Paul Iganski states that parallels between Israeli policy and those of the Nazis are "arguably not intrinsically [ censored word]emitic", and that the context in which they are made is critical’

https://www.lancaster.ac.uk/arts-and-social-sciences/about-us/people/paul-iganski

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_Definition_of_[ censored word]emitism

[Venturi Swirl]

So not even near the offensive banners.

Yes, very near the offensive banners.  If fact there only seemed to be a couple dozen marching, looking at those pictures, were you one of them?  If not, why not?