UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: icabodcrane on May 18, 2013, 11:57:47 PM
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That's the Sunday Express front page tomorrow
The story is not on line yet
Is this something that has been known previously, or is it new information ?
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Where did you come by the story?
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Where did you come by the story?
I don't know what the story is, I'm just going by the headline
If you google Daily Express, then scroll right down to the bottom, they give a picture of the tomorrow's front page
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Mystery couple seen going into McCanns’ flat on night before sobbing Madeleine disappeared
(http://images.dailyexpress.co.uk/img/dynamic/1/590x/mccann-madeleine-400796.jpg)
Madeleine’s tears alerted a resident on eve of her disappearance
SCOTLAND YARD detectives are trying to find a middle-aged couple said to have entered Madeleine McCann’s holiday apartment to comfort her because she was crying, we can reveal today.
It is believed they entered the bedroom on May 2, 2007, the evening before Madeleine disappeared from the Ocean Club at Praia da Luz on Portugal’s Algarve.
The tip-off was given by two key witnesses who were reinterviewed as part of the Yard’s two-year, £4.5million investigation.
It is already known that Pamela Fenn, who lived directly above apartment 5a, heard a child, believed to be Madeleine, crying for about an hour on the evening of May 2.
She was so concerned she rang a friend in the village to ask what to do and considered ringing Portugal’s Policia Judiciaria.
At the time, Madeleine’s mother Kate and father Gerry were dining with friends at a tapas bar some 50 yards from the apartment.
A source said: “Police were astonished when this new information came to light. Officers spoke to other key witnesses to discover more about the middle-aged couple.
“Apparently they were concerned about the crying and went to see if they could comfort the girl.”
Pamela Fenn has since died, so police have been speaking to other people who were staying in the same apartments.
Our revelation comes as Scotland Yard detectives say there are potentially 20 suspects they want to speak to. Retiring Detective Chief Superintendent Hamish Campbell, head of the Yard’s Homicide and Serious Crime Command, urged Portuguese authorities to investigate the new leads.
He said: “There are a lot of people of interest. There are people who could be properly explored further, if only to be eliminated.”
Scotland Yard officers have been interviewing witnesses here for months, although the public prosecutor in Portugal has decided against reopening the investigation.
Despite claims of a “Mexican stand off” between Portuguese police and Yard officers, the Sunday Express understands there is in fact very good co-operation between both squads.
Pedro de Carmo, deputy national leader of the PJ, said yesterday: “We still co-operate with their team. There are good communications.”
Portuguese officers are very impressed with the diligence of the Met investigation and have been impressed with their interviews with witnesses in Britain.
We can confirm that a couple staying in the same block as apartment 5a were interviewed last February.
They were in their apartment on the night Madeleine vanished. Afterwards they wrote an account of what they saw but were never formally interviewed by Portuguese detectives.
They had been at a restaurant earlier in the evening and left at about 9pm.
On their way home they walked directly past the entrance to the Ocean Club pool, where the “Tapas 7” (the name given to the friends eating with the McCanns on the night Madeleine disappeared) were enjoying the meal with Kate and Gerry.
They walked past apartment 5a but noticed nothing untoward. The woman said in her statement: “I stood on the balcony at about 9.15 with a whisky.
“I saw people eating at the tapas bar and children in the play area. We went to bed at 10pm-ish. We were woken up by our bell ringing at 11.30pm. It was a friend of the McCanns, saying that a little girl had been abducted. The friend asked if we had a computer so they could get the media involved in the search.
“Two police were on the corner of our block, one lady said that off-duty police had come and were searching. We did see single men on mobiles while we were out who could have been police.”
The couple took part in the search for Madeleine and then returned to their apartment.
The woman’s statement continues: “We walked back up towards our apartment, a group had gathered on the corner. The McCanns were in bits, he was crying on the shoulder of a friend. She was screaming: ‘The f*****g b........s have taken her’. Finally, at around 4am, we said: ‘Is it OK if we go to bed?’ We directed this comment towards a man in a white shirt and jeans, who seemed to be authoritative.”
At the couple’s home here, two Yard officers questioned them separately for three hours and got them to sign lengthy statements. They further interviewed them this year to double check their information.
The couple are key because at precisely 9.15pm on May 3, Jane Tanner, a friend of the McCanns, said she left the tapas bar and walked past Gerry, who was talking to holidaymaker Jez Wilkins outside apartment 5a.
Neither Gerry nor Kate said they saw Jane. She reported that she had seen a man carrying a child, believed to be Madeleine, walking across the top of the road.
At the time she had not realised the significance. Officers asked the couple if they saw Jane, Gerry or Jez but they insist they did not.
The Sunday Express has visited the couple’s holiday apartment, which looks over the tapas bar. From its balcony you can see directly into the garden of apartment 5a.
The woman said: “We have one of the best views of the whole block. We are sure of the timings. If we had seen anyone we would have remembered.
“We will continue to answer the Yard’s questions. We have given our fingerprints and DNA. We were happy to assist. They should be left to get on with their inquiries.”
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/400796/Mystery-couple-seen-going-into-McCanns-flat-on-night-before-sobbing-Madeleine-disappeared
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I'll reserve judgment on that one until the couple in question have been identified in person ...
Thinking about it more deeply, clearly this couple in question didn't, themselves, report anything, and from Mrs Fenn's account, it would seem the couple had no effect in comforting Madeleine, because the crying did not abate until the McCanns themselves returned ...
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It is already known that Pamela Fenn, who lived directly above apartment 5a, heard a child, believed to be Madeleine, crying for about an hour on the evening of May 2.
Unquote
Mrs Fenn said she heard a child crying on May 1st not the 2nd. Rachel Oldfield stayed in her apartment on the night of May 2nd. If there had been any prolonged crying from next door- she would have heard it.
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It is already known that Pamela Fenn, who lived directly above apartment 5a, heard a child, believed to be Madeleine, crying for about an hour on the evening of May 2.
Unquote
Mrs Fenn said she heard a child crying on May 1st not the 2nd. Rachel Oldfield stayed in her apartment on the night of May 2nd. If there had been any prolonged crying from next door- she would have heard it.
Yes you're right, May 1st, and Mrs Fenn said nothing about May 2nd, so this couple heard crying on May 2nd that passed Mrs Fenn by ...
Rachel Oldfield stayed in the McCanns apartment on May 2nd, do you mean?
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It is already known that Pamela Fenn, who lived directly above apartment 5a, heard a child, believed to be Madeleine, crying for about an hour on the evening of May 2.
Unquote
Mrs Fenn said she heard a child crying on May 1st not the 2nd. Rachel Oldfield stayed in her apartment on the night of May 2nd. If there had been any prolonged crying from next door- she would have heard it.
Yes you're right, May 1st, and Mrs Fenn said nothing about May 2nd, so this couple heard crying on May 2nd that passed Mrs Fenn by ...
Rachel Oldfield stayed in the McCanns apartment on May 2nd, do you mean?
No - she was in the apartment next door to 5A - for the whole evening of the 2nd.
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quote
It is already known that Pamela Fenn, who lived directly above apartment 5a, heard a child, believed to be Madeleine, crying for about an hour on the evening of May 2.
Unquote
Mrs Fenn said she heard a child crying on May 1st not the 2nd. Rachel Oldfield stayed in her apartment on the night of May 2nd. If there had been any prolonged crying from next door- she would have heard it.
Yes you're right, May 1st, and Mrs Fenn said nothing about May 2nd, so this couple heard crying on May 2nd that passed Mrs Fenn by ...
Rachel Oldfield stayed in the McCanns apartment on May 2nd, do you mean?
No - she was in the apartment next door to 5A - for the whole evening of the 2nd.
Ah! Thank you ...
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Benice on the ball.
From Rachel Oldfield's rogatory:
1578 'So you, on the Wednesday evening then, you stayed in the apartment with Grace''
Reply 'Yeah, yeah. I remember reading my book on the sofa for a while and then think I, I went to bed but it would have been quite, you know it would have been about nine, cos I'd been up most of the night before, erm and I mean I know that on Thursday night when we sat down at the table, Kate said that to Madeleine and Sean had you know, said they'd been crying on the Wednesday night and asking where erm, they'd said they'd been crying and, and some, you know, this is sort of with hindsight but I you know, I was trying to think whether I'd heard anything but'.
1578 'On the Wednesday evening'.
Reply 'Mmm'.
1578 'Who said they'd been crying sorry''
Reply 'Kate did, when we sat down at the table on the Thursday night, Kate said that erm, Madeleine and Sean had cried, said they'd been crying, erm and you know wondered where she was, or wondered where you know, Mummy and Daddy were, erm I mean this was kind of after Madeleine disappeared, we talked, she mentioned that when we sat at the table on Thursday and then after Madeleine had disappeared, erm McCANNS said, oh well I wonder whether on the Wednesday, you know somebody had tried to get in perhaps or had got in and they'd seen something, erm you know and I was next door in the apartment but I mean I didnt hear any, well you know, I didnt hear anything, I could well have been asleep, erm you could hear quite a lot through the apartments because Grace, she always wakes up early but because she seemed to have diarrhoea every night, she'd wake up sort of six o'clock most mornings and we'd always have to put her in the, in the shower or in the bath first thing, and Gerry and Kate would always hear that and so you know, most of the comments first thing in the morning would be like, oh so Grace was up early again, she'd be invariably screaming her head off, so'.
1578 'On Wednesday evening'.
Reply 'Mmm'.
1578 'When you were poorly, what time would Matthew have gone down to''
Reply 'About half eight'.
1578 'About half eight''
Reply 'Mmm'.
1578 'And do you recall what time he returned''
Reply 'No but it was quite late that night, it was later than any of the other nights'.
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So Madeleine, told her mummy she had been crying, but didn't mention two good samaritans had been in to comfort her?
This couple supposedly saw enter the bedroom @)(++(*
The Sunday Express has visited the couple’s holiday apartment, which looks over the tapas bar. From its balcony you can see directly into the garden of apartment 5a.
“I stood on the balcony at about 9.15 with a whisky.
“I saw people eating at the tapas bar and children in the play area. We went to bed at 10pm-ish. We were woken up by our bell ringing at 11.30pm. It was a friend of the McCanns, saying that a little girl had been abducted. The friend asked if we had a computer so they could get the media involved in the search. ?>)()<
God has this woman, got eyes in the back of her head? she can see in front, and behind buildings. She's obviously deaf, if she didn't hear the commotion.
“Apparently they were concerned about the crying and went to see if they could comfort the girl.”
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That's another excellent point.
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So Madeleine, told her mummy she had been crying, but didn't mention two good samaritans had been in to comfort her?
This couple supposedly saw enter the bedroom @)(++(*
The Sunday Express has visited the couple’s holiday apartment, which looks over the tapas bar. From its balcony you can see directly into the garden of apartment 5a.
“I stood on the balcony at about 9.15 with a whisky.
“I saw people eating at the tapas bar and children in the play area. We went to bed at 10pm-ish. We were woken up by our bell ringing at 11.30pm. It was a friend of the McCanns, saying that a little girl had been abducted. The friend asked if we had a computer so they could get the media involved in the search. ?>)()<
God has this woman, got eyes in the back of her head? she can see in front, and behind buildings. She's obviously deaf, if she didn't hear the commotion.
“Apparently they were concerned about the crying and went to see if they could comfort the girl.”
The article is ambiguous, I find. It's not at all clear if the first couple mentioned in the article is the same as the second one.
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So Madeleine, told her mummy she had been crying, but didn't mention two good samaritans had been in to comfort her?
This couple supposedly saw enter the bedroom @)(++(*
The Sunday Express has visited the couple’s holiday apartment, which looks over the tapas bar. From its balcony you can see directly into the garden of apartment 5a.
“I stood on the balcony at about 9.15 with a whisky.
“I saw people eating at the tapas bar and children in the play area. We went to bed at 10pm-ish. We were woken up by our bell ringing at 11.30pm. It was a friend of the McCanns, saying that a little girl had been abducted. The friend asked if we had a computer so they could get the media involved in the search. ?>)()<
God has this woman, got eyes in the back of her head? she can see in front, and behind buildings. She's obviously deaf, if she didn't hear the commotion.
“Apparently they were concerned about the crying and went to see if they could comfort the girl.”
The article is ambiguous, I find. It's not at all clear if the first couple mentioned in the article is the same as the second one.
Why would the woman say,
“We have one of the best views of the whole block. We are sure of the timings. If we had seen anyone we would have remembered.
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This couple is perfectly identified and their statements are part of the files. They aren't the supposed "Samaritans". But they heard and saw nothing except people laughing in the Tapas Bar and a knock on their door much later. I don't think they were asked if they had a laptop to put the media in the case.
I can try to find them if somebody wishes.
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This couple is perfectly identified and their statements are part of the files. They aren't the supposed "Samaritans". But they heard and saw nothing except people laughing in the Tapas Bar and a knock on their door much later. I don't think they were asked if they had a laptop to put the media in the case.
I can try to find them if somebody wishes.
Yes please, Anne.
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They're Paul and Susan Moyse, but it seems they've disappeared... as well. Anyhow I'm not inventing them
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/leicestershire/6627799.stm
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Jez Wilkins was in block 4, so that block is on the opposite side of the road to 5A, I believe.
There is no way, this couple could see anyone entering Madeleine's bedroom.
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They're Paul and Susan Moyse, but it seems they've disappeared... as well. Anyhow I'm not inventing them
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/leicestershire/6627799.stm
They sound more like, holiday makers, not villa owners, Anne?
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Jez Wilkins was in block 4, so that block is on the opposite side of the road to 5A, I believe.
There is no way, this couple could see anyone entering Madeleine's bedroom.
No I think you have that wrong DC1. Block 4 is to the west of block 5. Block 6 is to the east of 5A across the road where the balcony directly overlooking the back steps to the Mccann apartment is.
Block 2 is across the road to the north of 5A.
Tbh DC1, there is no way that anyone in any of these blocks could see anyone entering Madeleines bedroom, except possibily if someone was hanging out of the window immediately above 5a.
So unlikely that it isn't worth thinking about
Strange ? !
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No one has actually said they saw anyone entering the bedroom.
It is *believed* they entered the bedroom on 2nd May. IMO thats the journalists words in the context of the story being told.
@Carana, I agree the article is a little ambiguous, but the couple on the top flat are not the mystery couple being sought. It is not even clear if the couple, the Moyes, whose statements are described, are the two key witnesses who *tipped off* the police about a couple entering the apartment on the Wednesday, or whether it was others who were interviewed who did this. Six years on tbh I doubt it is them and this info has only just come out.
Unbelievable that James Murray penning stories for six years doesnt know the actual day of the Mrs Fenn crying episode. No one except the Mccanns have ever mentioned anything about any crying on a Wednesday. The date must be wrong. the Moyes never mentioned anything about any crying on a Wednesday and the day od the event, Tuesday, they werent there, so someone else has said this, if its true in the first place and not a fabrication.
Whats curious is that the couple walked home at around 9pm, were in the exact vicinity, were on the balcony at 9.15 and not a peep of seeing Jez Gerry Jane or others coming and going. That the PJ did not formally interview them is unbeleivable too especially as they were there for the whole month. And not even via rogatory. Strange.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/stoke/realmedia/2007/09/click_190907.ram
Scroll down to the Search for Maddie interview with Susan Moyes
Search for Maddie BBC - Stoke and Staffordshire
14 August 2007 - Susan Moyes owns an apartment two floors above the one the McCanns stayed in.
Transcript
By Nigel Moore
Question: This is a story you've followed incredibly closely because you were involved on the night; you helped the police and the family in looking for Madeleine, didn't you?
Susan Moyes: Yes, we did and, yes, very, very concerned... concerned for the family and followed it, every day... every day.
Q: Can you take us back to that night and... and what you were doing and when you first heard there was a problem?
SM: Sure. We went out for a meal about 7 o'clock, down in the town, we walked back about 9 o'clock, round past, errm... the... the church, round past the supermarket, back to the apartment, went out on the balcony about quarter past nine - everywhere was peaceful, everywhere was lovely - we then went to bed.
We were woken up at half past eleven at night by one of the friends of the McCanns to say 'a little girl' had 'been abducted'; those... those were the words used. So, we got dressed and joined in the search, we were out until about four in the morning with, oooh… about, I don't know, thirty people... thirty other people, maybe. The Mark Warner team were out, errm... and other guests at the Ocean Club.
Q: Now, to... to put it into perspective, we've all seen the pictures of the apartment where the McCanns were staying. How close is yours to theirs?
SM: Directly above, errm... we are but one above. Mrs Fenn, that lives there, was in the apartment below us and then below that was the McCanns, so directly above.
The Moyes were sat on their balcony at 9:15 PM but report nothing suspicious
Q: And, errr... you were out there for a considerable... a considerable period of time?
SM: Yeah, we went out on the Wednesday; the day before sh..., errr... Madeleine went missing and we were out for the month of May.
Q: Tell me about the affect all of this has had on the... the local community there.
SM: It was, errr... unbelievable really. Apart from the disruption from the mass media, the helicopter - constantly circling round - and sheer disbelief really, everybody was completely, errm... well, amazed by it. Gobsmacked, really.
Q: What... I mean, what were the local community saying to you because obviously being out there such a time, you must have spoken to a lot of people about it? It must have been, if you like, the talk of the town.
SM: Mmm... There was a lot of criticism of the police, which... which we felt was unfounded, errm... at that time. And... really, a lot of... unsure about exactly what happened. How did somebody get in? Was it the front? Was it the back? Was it left open? Was it forced? A lot of different stories...
Q: Speculation, if you like...
SM: Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, yeah.
Q: And... we've got a copy of the newspaper here - in fact it's one of today's newspapers - The Express and... and it's still front page news, of course. Back in the news, there...
SM: Big... big style, yeah, yeah.
Q: How do you feel when you see the pictures here in the newspapers? I mean, have you... have you collected newspapers over the period?
SM: Oh yeah, I get the paper every day anyway but obviously followed it very closely and I just… disbelief, no way... no way do I feel they were any way involved in it. Not at all, no.
Q: How do you feel they… they've been treated?
SM: I think, errm... initially it was very supportive. Personally, I think probably if they'd left the Algarve maybe a month ago, errm... it... it would have been treated more favourably, I think.
Q: It's difficult to know how... how to handle that kind of situation, from their point of view though, I suppose, isn't it?
SM: Beggar's belief... it beggar's belief, yeah, you just don't want to be in that situation, errm... but, yeah, I can't understand this, errr... the turn of... of people's attitudes towards them, some being really quite nasty, unfounded and... and wrong, I think.
Q: Have the newspapers got it right in terms of... of where they were that evening, I mean, the distance from the... the restaurant to the apartment and what have you?
SM: Well, yeah, as the crow flies, errm... they're probably about right with the 50 yards but, in actual fact, you do have to... it's walled off, in a walled area - about six foot of wall - so you have to actually have to go through a little, errm... entrance building, out onto the road and then round to their apartment.
Q: And line of sight, is there any?
SM: Difficult... they wouldn't have had vision of the whole of their, errm... errr... balcony, they would only have had the top of it from... from where they were sitting, because of the wall and because of the flowers on top of the wall.
Q: How do you feel about the... the criticism of the McCann family for leaving the children?
SM: Harsh... very, very harsh. Hand on heart, we've all done something like that, I think, and errm... no, it's... it's just unfortunate. Just a sad, unfortunate accident.
Q: And how do you feel having been, if you like, errm... being swept along with all of this, having been part of this story from the start, being there, at that time when it all happened, I mean, I suspect as a family you must have talked about this over the dinner table for... for weeks and weeks and weeks?
SM: Yes... yes, we have, we have, errm... and I just can't get my head round it at all. I can't... I can't understand it and I don't... I don't know if it'll ever be resolved, really.
Q: You're off back to... to Portugal soon, I gather, and errm... how do you think Praia da Luz will be when you get back?
SM: Yeah, we go back in a couple of weeks, errm... and my husband has actually said for the first time he's going to feel very differently about it, errm... I... I... no, I'm fine about, I'm fine about it, errm... but, yeah, it’s a shame, it's kind of tainted what is a lovely... lovely spot.
************
Holidaymakers tell of late-night search for Madeleine
05/05/2007 - 15:05:45
A British couple on holiday in the Algarve resort where Madeleine McCann was abducted told today how frantic staff knocked on the doors of holidaymakers to get them involved in a search for the missing girl.
Paul Moyes, 58, who is on holiday with his wife, Susan, said: “At 11.30pm there was a knock on the door. I went out in my dressing gown and there was a distressed gentleman there saying that a child had been abducted and could we help with the search. Everybody got involved.”
The couple said the drama unfolded after what they described as “a fabulous day” in the Praia Da Luz resort.
It was as the couple were sleeping that three-year-old Madeleine was snatched from her parents’ holiday apartment below.
Mrs Moyes, 58, from Middlewich, Cheshire, told how they had returned to their apartment at around 9.15pm after an evening out.
“We went into the apartment, I went out on the balcony, looking over at the tapas bar, and remarked to Paul that there were so many people in there eating and drinking – ’what a fabulous day’.”
Among those dining in the tapas bar opposite their apartment were Madeleine’s parents, Gerry and Kate, who were making regular trips back to their own rooms to check on their children.
Mr Moyes said: “I felt quite shattered, to be quite frank. The people were themselves extremely sad and it was quite sad for everybody.
“We were quite emotionally shattered, seeing the family that distressed.”
He said that among those who joined the search were many off-duty police in plain clothes who had been called in to help.
Mrs Moyes said: “Walking around you would see individual men, they were police but you wouldn’t know because they were in casual clothes.”
The couple said they remained on the search until 4am on Friday morning.
Mr Moyes described the resort as idyllic and safe. His wife added: “It is paradise.”
Edited
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Jez Wilkins was in block 4, so that block is on the opposite side of the road to 5A, I believe.
There is no way, this couple could see anyone entering Madeleine's bedroom.
No I think you have that wrong DC1. Block 4 is to the west of block 5. Block 6 is to the east of 5A across the road where the balcony directly overlooking the back steps to the Mccann apartment is.
Block 2 is across the road to the north of 5A.
Tbh DC1, there is no way that anyone in any of these blocks could see anyone entering Madeleines bedroom, except possibily if someone was hanging out of the window immediately above 5a.
So unlikely that it isn't worth thinking about
Strange ? !
Got the block number wrong, it is 6, sorry.
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The headline, is:
Mystery couple seen going into McCanns’ flat on night before sobbing Madeleine disappeared.
The timelines she gives, fits what Murray wrote. She doesn't mention anything about a computer being asked for, though.
SM: Sure. We went out for a meal about 7 o'clock, down in the town, we walked back about 9 o'clock, round past, errm... the... the church, round past the supermarket, back to the apartment, went out on the balcony about quarter past nine - everywhere was peaceful, everywhere was lovely - we then went to bed.
We were woken up at half past eleven at night by one of the friends of the McCanns to say 'a little girl' had 'been abducted'; those... those were the words used. So, we got dressed and joined in the search, we were out until about four in the morning with, oooh… about, I don't know, thirty people... thirty other people, maybe. The Mark Warner team were out, errm... and other guests at the Ocean Club.
Murray
The Sunday Express has visited the couple’s holiday apartment, which looks over the tapas bar. From its balcony you can see directly into the garden of apartment 5a.
What about the other gardens?
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Well, the article says she was standing on the balcony with a whiskey at around 21:15. It was a chilly evening, so she may have popped out and then gone back in. It might have been 21:20 - there was nothing unusual to notice, so no particular reason to remember the precise time, particularly on holiday.
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The headline, is:
Mystery couple seen going into McCanns’ flat on night before sobbing Madeleine disappeared.
The timelines she gives, fits what Murray wrote. She doesn't mention anything about a computer being asked for, though.
SM: Sure. We went out for a meal about 7 o'clock, down in the town, we walked back about 9 o'clock, round past, errm... the... the church, round past the supermarket, back to the apartment, went out on the balcony about quarter past nine - everywhere was peaceful, everywhere was lovely - we then went to bed.
We were woken up at half past eleven at night by one of the friends of the McCanns to say 'a little girl' had 'been abducted'; those... those were the words used. So, we got dressed and joined in the search, we were out until about four in the morning with, oooh… about, I don't know, thirty people... thirty other people, maybe. The Mark Warner team were out, errm... and other guests at the Ocean Club.
Murray
The Sunday Express has visited the couple’s holiday apartment, which looks over the tapas bar. From its balcony you can see directly into the garden of apartment 5a.
What about the other gardens?
Something rattles around in my brain that someone, at some point, (it might have been Gerry?) did ask for a computer to send an email to a news agency (Sky?) but the message got lost in a spam filter (or similar) and was never acted.
It was definitely well after police had been alerted, though.
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Well, the article says she was standing on the balcony with a whiskey at around 21:15. It was a chilly evening, so she may have popped out and then gone back in. It might have been 21:20 - there was nothing unusual to notice, so no particular reason to remember the precise time, particularly on holiday.
8@??)( 8@??)(
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They're Paul and Susan Moyse, but it seems they've disappeared... as well. Anyhow I'm not inventing them
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/leicestershire/6627799.stm
They sound more like, holiday makers, not villa owners, Anne?
DCI, block 4 is westwards of block 5, block 6 is eastwards (on the other side of FGM).
The Moyses were in a flat on top (aside) Mrs Fenn.
I read their statement (but where ?), I'm sure they're the same people : they came back from dinner out around 21:15, had a drink on their balcony over the pool area, saw people laughing, went to bed before 10, weren't woken up by nothing but, after 11, a knock on their door.
Sorry I answered before seeing it had already been answered.
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The headline, is:
Mystery couple seen going into McCanns’ flat on night before sobbing Madeleine disappeared.
The timelines she gives, fits what Murray wrote. She doesn't mention anything about a computer being asked for, though.
SM: Sure. We went out for a meal about 7 o'clock, down in the town, we walked back about 9 o'clock, round past, errm... the... the church, round past the supermarket, back to the apartment, went out on the balcony about quarter past nine - everywhere was peaceful, everywhere was lovely - we then went to bed.
We were woken up at half past eleven at night by one of the friends of the McCanns to say 'a little girl' had 'been abducted'; those... those were the words used. So, we got dressed and joined in the search, we were out until about four in the morning with, oooh… about, I don't know, thirty people... thirty other people, maybe. The Mark Warner team were out, errm... and other guests at the Ocean Club.
Murray
The Sunday Express has visited the couple’s holiday apartment, which looks over the tapas bar. From its balcony you can see directly into the garden of apartment 5a.
What about the other gardens?
Something rattles around in my brain that someone, at some point, (it might have been Gerry?) did ask for a computer to send an email to a news agency (Sky?) but the message got lost in a spam filter (or similar) and was never acted.
It was definitely well after police had been alerted, though.
Kate's book. David Payne. P. 79
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The headline, is:
Mystery couple seen going into McCanns’ flat on night before sobbing Madeleine disappeared.
The timelines she gives, fits what Murray wrote. She doesn't mention anything about a computer being asked for, though.
SM: Sure. We went out for a meal about 7 o'clock, down in the town, we walked back about 9 o'clock, round past, errm... the... the church, round past the supermarket, back to the apartment, went out on the balcony about quarter past nine - everywhere was peaceful, everywhere was lovely - we then went to bed.
We were woken up at half past eleven at night by one of the friends of the McCanns to say 'a little girl' had 'been abducted'; those... those were the words used. So, we got dressed and joined in the search, we were out until about four in the morning with, oooh… about, I don't know, thirty people... thirty other people, maybe. The Mark Warner team were out, errm... and other guests at the Ocean Club.
Murray
The Sunday Express has visited the couple’s holiday apartment, which looks over the tapas bar. From its balcony you can see directly into the garden of apartment 5a.
What about the other gardens?
Something rattles around in my brain that someone, at some point, (it might have been Gerry?) did ask for a computer to send an email to a news agency (Sky?) but the message got lost in a spam filter (or similar) and was never acted.
It was definitely well after police had been alerted, though.
Kate's book. David Payne. P. 79
Ahhh!
Thank you.
I think I quoted completely the wrong post in my reply, there, but I can't find the post I'd intended responding to.
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Whats curious is that the couple walked home at around 9pm, were in the exact vicinity, were on the balcony at 9.15 and not a peep of seeing Jez Gerry Jane or others coming and going. That the PJ did not formally interview them is unbeleivable too especially as they were there for the whole month. And not even via rogatory. Strange.
Thank you for the links, Redblossom. Why weren't they formally interviewed ? They might have left to the UK in the following days.
Does this suggest that (before the turning of the case) the police didn't hunt people, on the basis that everybody was aware of the abduction and that those who "knew something" would spontaneously contact the police ?
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Whats curious is that the couple walked home at around 9pm, were in the exact vicinity, were on the balcony at 9.15 and not a peep of seeing Jez Gerry Jane or others coming and going. That the PJ did not formally interview them is unbeleivable too especially as they were there for the whole month. And not even via rogatory. Strange.
Thank you for the links, Redblossom. Why weren't they formally interviewed ? They might have left to the UK in the following days.
Does this suggest that (before the turning of the case) the police didn't hunt people, on the basis that everybody was aware of the abduction and that those who "knew something" would spontaneously contact the police ?
I dont know, there is nothing in the files, which makes this, taken from the express article sound true
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They were in their apartment on the night Madeleine vanished. Afterwards they wrote an account of what they saw but were never formally interviewed by Portuguese detectives.
***
What *they wrote an account of what they saw* means?
In the radio interview S Moyes says they were there the whole month of May
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In the radio interview S Moyes says they were there the whole month of May
So Mrs Fenn wasn't the only neighbour to be "neglected" as a witness.
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In the radio interview S Moyes says they were there the whole month of May
So Mrs Fenn wasn't the only neighbour to be "neglected" as a witness.
I dont know, maybe the police informally questioned them and left it at that at the time.
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In the radio interview S Moyes says they were there the whole month of May
So Mrs Fenn wasn't the only neighbour to be "neglected" as a witness.
What about Anne Wiltshire and Jayne Jensen.
Although the two sisters contacted Portuguese police within hours of Madeleine's disappearance, their evidence was ignored for six months.
(http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/01_01/Madeleinegraph_468x315.jpg)
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-504950/British-witnesses-We-saw-blond-men-balcony-Madeleine-apartment.html#ixzz2TkhXcjDx
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In the radio interview S Moyes says they were there the whole month of May
So Mrs Fenn wasn't the only neighbour to be "neglected" as a witness.
What about Anne Wiltshire and Jayne Jensen.
Although the two sisters contacted Portuguese police within hours of Madeleine's disappearance, their evidence was ignored for six months.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-504950/British-witnesses-We-saw-blond-men-balcony-Madeleine-apartment.html#ixzz2TkhXcjDx
There are more holes in that article than 100 kilos of edam, besides Im always suspicious of people who *come out* months and YEARS ! later after events, pffft
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What about Anne Wiltshire and Jayne Jensen.
Although the two sisters contacted Portuguese police within hours of Madeleine's disappearance, their evidence was ignored for six months.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-504950/British-witnesses-We-saw-blond-men-balcony-Madeleine-apartment.html#ixzz2TkhXcjDx
The fact the police "ignored their evidence", which first tried to frame Robert M, has a reason. It's not rare people seizing the opportunity to be on the news..
For example :
"On the evening of May 3, the sisters ate in the same tapas restaurant as the McCann party.
Now have a look at the Tapas book
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAPAS_BOOKING.htm#a3p606
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In the radio interview S Moyes says they were there the whole month of May
So Mrs Fenn wasn't the only neighbour to be "neglected" as a witness.
What about Anne Wiltshire and Jayne Jensen.
Although the two sisters contacted Portuguese police within hours of Madeleine's disappearance, their evidence was ignored for six months.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-504950/British-witnesses-We-saw-blond-men-balcony-Madeleine-apartment.html#ixzz2TkhXcjDx
There are more holes in that article than 100 kilos of edam, besides Im always suspicious of people who *come out* months and YEARS ! later after events, pffft
They wouldn't have 'come out' at all if their names had not been leaked to the press. The reason it took 6 months for them to be interviewed is because all their approaches to the Pj were ignored. I don't think you have read the article properly Redblossom to make those comments. What are these tons of holes please?
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You know red, I believe that someone was deliberately pretending there were sightings to waste the Madeleine Fund money. Red Herrings to dry up the funds. To stop the searching, cos no money.
All had to be investigated
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You know red, I believe that someone was deliberately pretending there were sightings to waste the Madeleine Fund money. Red Herrings to dry up the funds. To stop the searching, cos no money.
All had to be investigated
Heard it all now
Catch you later
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You know red, I believe that someone was deliberately pretending there were sightings to waste the Madeleine Fund money. Red Herrings to dry up the funds. To stop the searching, cos no money.
All had to be investigated
Quite, in addition to this (and this may sound harsh) - with the fund and the money sloshing around accounts - a cottage industry was born.
I recall very on, on the Mirror forum a poster calling themselves 'Steven' quite without shame asking around whether someone had a phone number for the McCanns so he could offer his printing services for leaflets and posters and suchlike.
Since then quite a few peeps have tried to get their slice of the action. That in a way was the monster the McCanns created - if I was, say a free lance journo or a criminal profiler trying to flog a booky - it would be very well in my interest to invent sightings - when reporting dries up re. the case.
It's parasitic behaviour - you feed on the host - but are very careful not to kill it.
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In the radio interview S Moyes says they were there the whole month of May
So Mrs Fenn wasn't the only neighbour to be "neglected" as a witness.
I dont know, maybe the police informally questioned them and left it at that at the time.
Surely it would have been important to get information as possible from everyone around that night? I'm aware that they tried to interview people who were going to be leaving fairly soon afterwards, and that the whole situation was somewhat chaotic, etc.
However, this couple were there for the entire month and even joined in the search. They might have recognised whoever it was who looked like Murat. And might have clarified who tried to contact Sky (if it was the same couple).
Not to mention Mrs Fenn...
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In the radio interview S Moyes says they were there the whole month of May
So Mrs Fenn wasn't the only neighbour to be "neglected" as a witness.
I dont know, maybe the police informally questioned them and left it at that at the time.
Surely it would have been important to get information as possible from everyone around that night? I'm aware that they tried to interview people who were going to be leaving fairly soon afterwards, and that the whole situation was somewhat chaotic, etc.
However, this couple were there for the entire month and even joined in the search. They might have recognised whoever it was who looked like Murat. And might have clarified who tried to contact Sky (if it was the same couple).
Not to mention Mrs Fenn...
true but the PJ (and initially Team McCann - although they later changed their stance) - even elected to ignore statements of witnesses - who claimed to have seen Madeleine well before the 'abuction hour'
Namely Taxi driver Antonio Cardozo
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In the radio interview S Moyes says they were there the whole month of May
So Mrs Fenn wasn't the only neighbour to be "neglected" as a witness.
I dont know, maybe the police informally questioned them and left it at that at the time.
Surely it would have been important to get information as possible from everyone around that night? I'm aware that they tried to interview people who were going to be leaving fairly soon afterwards, and that the whole situation was somewhat chaotic, etc.
However, this couple were there for the entire month and even joined in the search. They might have recognised whoever it was who looked like Murat. And might have clarified who tried to contact Sky (if it was the same couple).
Not to mention Mrs Fenn...
I said I didnt know, and was unbelievable they didnt, cant say any more
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However, this couple were there for the entire month and even joined in the search. They might have recognised whoever it was who looked like Murat.
Yes, they could find out (even in July when the TP3 came back to be confronted to Robert M) who was taken for Robert M. But was it interesting for the search ?
Is yet somebody doubting that Robert M wasn't near the scene on that night ?
You know, Carana, that a police permanent post was implemented very close by in the morning of the 4th in order to collect information. The couple might have said they didn't notice anything odd. In itself it was interesting, but right on the moment it gave no indication about the abductor and as these people hardly could be persons of interest, it wasn't registered.
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However, this couple were there for the entire month and even joined in the search. They might have recognised whoever it was who looked like Murat.
Yes, they could found out (even in July when the TP3 came back to be confronted to Robert M) who was taken for Robert M. But was it interesting for the search ?
Is yet somebody doubting that Robert M wasn't near the scene on that night ?
You know, Carana, that a police permanent post was implemented very close by in the morning of the 4th in order to collect information. The couple might have said they didn't notice anything odd. In itself it was interesting, but right on the moment it gave no indication about the abductor and as these people hardly could be persons of interest, it wasn't registered.
Well Casa Liliana is a mere 1-2 minute walk from 5a (without breaking into a sweat)
That's where Robert claimed he was with him mum, Jenny all night - talking in the kitchen .
To the best of my understanding this version was accepted by the authorities
So if I understand your question correctly - is the issue that Robert was either holed up within the confines of his mum's home - or mobile and out and about in Luz that night?
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The fact of being around the G5 in the middle of the night isn't in itself criminal. Many were there. What sounded suspicious was that Robert M denied he was there. Now, as I believe the TP3 who said they saw him aren't lying, as they maintained this accusation in July after being physically confronted to him, whom did they see ?
If the PJ had had time, if they didn't have all their forces focused on the search for Madeleine, if mainly Martin Smith hadn't firmly stated the carrier wasn't Robert M, they would, as the TP3 were so categoric, have found some lookalike men, asked Robert M to stay in line with them and asked the TP3 (separately) to choose the right man. To organize such a parade is time (and money).
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8**8:/: Fiona payne reckons he introduced himself as robert murat, she was adamant, liar or not?
A I say, I'd been to'ing and fro'ing between the front and the back and I'd come out of the front, really just to see if anyone knew, had any information of what was happening, and, erm, Robert MURAT actually walked over to me and shook my hand and introduced himself, erm, and told me that he was, that he was a local, he was working with the Police and he spoke Portuguese and if I needed any help or wanted any help with translation then, erm, you know, he'll be there to help us. And I withdrew from him, I didn't, I don't know why specifically I remember him, I mean, I haven't got a very good memory for faces, I think the others will say, or people, but I remember him very clearly, because he looked a bit strange and he had a squint, he had glasses, he appeared as if he was with the Police, because he was standing in front of all these uniformed Police, and maybe it was my assumption that he was with them, erm, yet he was saying he was a local, and I didn't quite, in my mind, I said, well how come you're a local living down the road and you're here in plain clothes yet you're saying you're with the Police, it didn't, it just seemed a bit odd, erm, and he seemed overly in my face, I can't think of a better way of putting it, he was very quite sort of almost forceful in his introduction and, you know, at that point I was sort of almost trying to steer people away from the apartment, any extra people that weren't really needed in there, just because of what was going on inside and Kate's state, so I didn't really want somebody who I didn't know, erm, in there, erm, and I think I said in my previous statement to the PJ, there was just something that made me uneasy'.
Yes ms fiona
Yes ms fiona every single person there that night who actually KNEW robert murat including police said he wasnt there, so YOu who didnt know him decided he was, along with a few other non entities pfffttt
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This is probably banal
But a grown chap talking all night to his mum in the kitchen?
Never rang true for me.
'Hi mum - how was your day - Good son, bought some new bedding for the dogs - ah ok mum I'll have some of that soup on the stove - and do some work on the computer after - sure son, I'll watch the news now'
all of 30 seconds and far more believable than talking to your mum all night in the kitchen
(And I will not rehash Jenny's little confession box by the seaside - else I'd bore myself)
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If a grown up chap lives at home still its natural he could be at home chatting to his mum
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I see that the Daily Mail, who had originally run with the 'Cleaners are suspects' story, are now hitching themselves to the Express's petticoats and are also reporting the 'Couple who went into the McCann's apartement to comfort a crying Madeleine' revelation
What is the 'source' of this story, I wonder ... I really can't believe that, post Leveson, ( and half a million pounds worth of damages later ) the tabloids would be as cavalier as to run with this, unless there was a credible and defensible reason for doing so
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I see that the Daily Mail, who had originally run with the 'Cleaners are suspects' story, are now hitching themselves to the Express's petticoats and are also reporting the 'Couple who went into the McCann's apartement to comfort a crying Madeleine' revelation
What is the 'source' of this story, I wonder ... I really can't believe that, post Leveson, ( and half a million pounds worth of damages later ) the tabloids would be as cavalier as to run with this, unless there was a credible and defensible reason for doing so
Not only they give a wrong date (the 2nd) but they assume Mrs Fenn was home on that evening, whereas she said she wasn't. Luckily Rachael, who felt sick on the 2nd, was in her bedroom on the other side of the wall close to Madeleine's head. She heard nothing and said that when her baby cried very early morning and had to have a bath, the McCanns couldn't but notice it.
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8**8:/: Fiona payne reckons he introduced himself as robert murat, she was adamant, liar or not?
A I say, I'd been to'ing and fro'ing between the front and the back and I'd come out of the front, really just to see if anyone knew, had any information of what was happening, and, erm, Robert MURAT actually walked over to me and shook my hand and introduced himself, erm, and told me that he was, that he was a local, he was working with the Police and he spoke Portuguese and if I needed any help or wanted any help with translation then, erm, you know, he'll be there to help us. And I withdrew from him, I didn't, I don't know why specifically I remember him, I mean, I haven't got a very good memory for faces, I think the others will say, or people, but I remember him very clearly, because he looked a bit strange and he had a squint, he had glasses, he appeared as if he was with the Police, because he was standing in front of all these uniformed Police, and maybe it was my assumption that he was with them, erm, yet he was saying he was a local, and I didn't quite, in my mind, I said, well how come you're a local living down the road and you're here in plain clothes yet you're saying you're with the Police, it didn't, it just seemed a bit odd, erm, and he seemed overly in my face, I can't think of a better way of putting it, he was very quite sort of almost forceful in his introduction and, you know, at that point I was sort of almost trying to steer people away from the apartment, any extra people that weren't really needed in there, just because of what was going on inside and Kate's state, so I didn't really want somebody who I didn't know, erm, in there, erm, and I think I said in my previous statement to the PJ, there was just something that made me uneasy'.
Yes ms fiona
Yes ms fiona every single person there that night who actually KNEW robert murat including police said he wasnt there, so YOu who didnt know him decided he was, along with a few other non entities pfffttt
Why would she make up such a unnecessarily complicated lie - filled with all kinds of details which she would have to remember. That makes no sense. If she didn't see him but decided to lie and say she did - then why not just say ''I saw him standing in front of a group of policemen'' and leave it at that.
I'm absolutely sure that Robert Murat had nothing to do with Madeleine's abduction, but I do think it's possible he may have panicked and denied ever being at the scene when he realised the PJ finger was pointing at him. And then having said that - he had to stick to it. I do think he may have popped out when he heard the 'sirens' - as from what I've read about him I get the impresson he is the type who would want to know everything that's going on - and to be in the middle of it.
The fact that he wasn't seen by people who knew him isn't proof that he wasn't there. The fact that 7 people in total said they saw him that night is far more relevant IMO
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8**8:/: Fiona payne reckons he introduced himself as robert murat, she was adamant, liar or not?
A I say, I'd been to'ing and fro'ing between the front and the back and I'd come out of the front, really just to see if anyone knew, had any information of what was happening, and, erm, Robert MURAT actually walked over to me and shook my hand and introduced himself, erm, and told me that he was, that he was a local, he was working with the Police and he spoke Portuguese and if I needed any help or wanted any help with translation then, erm, you know, he'll be there to help us. And I withdrew from him, I didn't, I don't know why specifically I remember him, I mean, I haven't got a very good memory for faces, I think the others will say, or people, but I remember him very clearly, because he looked a bit strange and he had a squint, he had glasses, he appeared as if he was with the Police, because he was standing in front of all these uniformed Police, and maybe it was my assumption that he was with them, erm, yet he was saying he was a local, and I didn't quite, in my mind, I said, well how come you're a local living down the road and you're here in plain clothes yet you're saying you're with the Police, it didn't, it just seemed a bit odd, erm, and he seemed overly in my face, I can't think of a better way of putting it, he was very quite sort of almost forceful in his introduction and, you know, at that point I was sort of almost trying to steer people away from the apartment, any extra people that weren't really needed in there, just because of what was going on inside and Kate's state, so I didn't really want somebody who I didn't know, erm, in there, erm, and I think I said in my previous statement to the PJ, there was just something that made me uneasy'.
Yes ms fiona
Yes ms fiona every single person there that night who actually KNEW robert murat including police said he wasnt there, so YOu who didnt know him decided he was, along with a few other non entities pfffttt
Why would she make up such a unnecessarily complicated lie - filled with all kinds of details which she would have to remember. That makes no sense. If she didn't see him but decided to lie and say she did - then why not just say ''I saw him standing in front of a group of policemen'' and leave it at that.
I'm absolutely sure that Robert Murat had nothing to do with Madeleine's abduction, but I do think it's possible he may have panicked and denied ever being at the scene when he realised the PJ finger was pointing at him. And then having said that - he had to stick to it. I do think he may have popped out when he heard the 'sirens' - as from what I've read about him I get the impresson he is the type who would want to know everything that's going on - and to be in the middle of it.
The fact that he wasn't seen by people who knew him isn't proof that he wasn't there. The fact that 7 people in total said they saw him that night is far more relevant IMO
The Times (now, sadly, subscription only) ran two, excellent articles about Robert Murat, one by Matthew Parris, the other a profile.
The profile in particular gave testimony, except in a positive way, to the sort of person Robert Murat is, the type of person most people would die for as a neighbour precisely because of his qualities who wants to help, wants to be involved, would think nothing of being woken in the middle of the night to change a light bulb for someone, almost over-exuberant and friendly.
It's not hard to see how such qualities, against the backdrop of something as sinister as a missing and abducted little girl, might be misconstrued and misrepresented.
I know the Matthew piece is around on line. I'll see if I can find the profile.
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8@??)( @ Benice
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8**8:/: Fiona payne reckons he introduced himself as robert murat, she was adamant, liar or not?
A I say, I'd been to'ing and fro'ing between the front and the back and I'd come out of the front, really just to see if anyone knew, had any information of what was happening, and, erm, Robert MURAT actually walked over to me and shook my hand and introduced himself, erm, and told me that he was, that he was a local, he was working with the Police and he spoke Portuguese and if I needed any help or wanted any help with translation then, erm, you know, he'll be there to help us. And I withdrew from him, I didn't, I don't know why specifically I remember him, I mean, I haven't got a very good memory for faces, I think the others will say, or people, but I remember him very clearly, because he looked a bit strange and he had a squint, he had glasses, he appeared as if he was with the Police, because he was standing in front of all these uniformed Police, and maybe it was my assumption that he was with them, erm, yet he was saying he was a local, and I didn't quite, in my mind, I said, well how come you're a local living down the road and you're here in plain clothes yet you're saying you're with the Police, it didn't, it just seemed a bit odd, erm, and he seemed overly in my face, I can't think of a better way of putting it, he was very quite sort of almost forceful in his introduction and, you know, at that point I was sort of almost trying to steer people away from the apartment, any extra people that weren't really needed in there, just because of what was going on inside and Kate's state, so I didn't really want somebody who I didn't know, erm, in there, erm, and I think I said in my previous statement to the PJ, there was just something that made me uneasy'.
Yes ms fiona
Yes ms fiona every single person there that night who actually KNEW robert murat including police said he wasnt there, so YOu who didnt know him decided he was, along with a few other non entities pfffttt
Why would she make up such a unnecessarily complicated lie - filled with all kinds of details which she would have to remember. That makes no sense. If she didn't see him but decided to lie and say she did - then why not just say ''I saw him standing in front of a group of policemen'' and leave it at that.
I'm absolutely sure that Robert Murat had nothing to do with Madeleine's abduction, but I do think it's possible he may have panicked and denied ever being at the scene when he realised the PJ finger was pointing at him. And then having said that - he had to stick to it. I do think he may have popped out when he heard the 'sirens' - as from what I've read about him I get the impresson he is the type who would want to know everything that's going on - and to be in the middle of it.
The fact that he wasn't seen by people who knew him isn't proof that he wasn't there. The fact that 7 people in total said they saw him that night is far more relevant IMO
The Times (now, sadly, subscription only) ran two, excellent articles about Robert Murat, one by Matthew Parris, the other a profile.
The profile in particular gave testimony, except in a positive way, to the sort of person Robert Murat is, the type of person most people would die for as a neighbour precisely because of his qualities who wants to help, wants to be involved, would think nothing of being woken in the middle of the night to change a light bulb for someone, almost over-exuberant and friendly.
It's not hard to see how such qualities, against the backdrop of something as sinister as a missing and abducted little girl, might be misconstrued and misrepresented.
I know the Matthew piece is around on line. I'll see if I can find the profile.
Thanks Ferryman. I was trying to think of a word to describe him - my first thought was 'busybody' - but that does have an a negative vibe to it which is not how I see him Then I thought of 'do-gooder' but unfortunately that description is not normally used in a positive way either. I still havent thought of an appropriate word.
I entirely agree that his choice to involve himself so deeply in this case from the start, albeit with benign intentions, could be misconstrued.
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Sounds as tho he is like his mum then. She tried to help and it was misconstrued.
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It's not hard to see how such qualities, against the backdrop of something as sinister as a missing and abducted little girl, might be misconstrued and misrepresented.
I know the Matthew piece is around on line. I'll see if I can find the profile.
Try to find it, please Ferryman, this is how I always understood Robert M was. Not at all the guy who "panicks and denies etc.", to say nothing of Fiona and Co really absent-minded (but with severe consequences ; they were very lucky Robert M didn't sue them for confirming he was the one) statements.
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The fact that he wasn't seen by people who knew him isn't proof that he wasn't there. The fact that 7 people in total said they saw him that night is far more relevant IMO
Please provide a link to the 4 others, Benice.
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8**8:/: Fiona payne reckons he introduced himself as robert murat, she was adamant, liar or not?
A I say, I'd been to'ing and fro'ing between the front and the back and I'd come out of the front, really just to see if anyone knew, had any information of what was happening, and, erm, Robert MURAT actually walked over to me and shook my hand and introduced himself, erm, and told me that he was, that he was a local, he was working with the Police and he spoke Portuguese and if I needed any help or wanted any help with translation then, erm, you know, he'll be there to help us. And I withdrew from him, I didn't, I don't know why specifically I remember him, I mean, I haven't got a very good memory for faces, I think the others will say, or people, but I remember him very clearly, because he looked a bit strange and he had a squint, he had glasses, he appeared as if he was with the Police, because he was standing in front of all these uniformed Police, and maybe it was my assumption that he was with them, erm, yet he was saying he was a local, and I didn't quite, in my mind, I said, well how come you're a local living down the road and you're here in plain clothes yet you're saying you're with the Police, it didn't, it just seemed a bit odd, erm, and he seemed overly in my face, I can't think of a better way of putting it, he was very quite sort of almost forceful in his introduction and, you know, at that point I was sort of almost trying to steer people away from the apartment, any extra people that weren't really needed in there, just because of what was going on inside and Kate's state, so I didn't really want somebody who I didn't know, erm, in there, erm, and I think I said in my previous statement to the PJ, there was just something that made me uneasy'.
Yes ms fiona
Yes ms fiona every single person there that night who actually KNEW robert murat including police said he wasnt there, so YOu who didnt know him decided he was, along with a few other non entities pfffttt
Why would she make up such a unnecessarily complicated lie - filled with all kinds of details which she would have to remember. That makes no sense. If she didn't see him but decided to lie and say she did - then why not just say ''I saw him standing in front of a group of policemen'' and leave it at that.
I'm absolutely sure that Robert Murat had nothing to do with Madeleine's abduction, but I do think it's possible he may have panicked and denied ever being at the scene when he realised the PJ finger was pointing at him. And then having said that - he had to stick to it. I do think he may have popped out when he heard the 'sirens' - as from what I've read about him I get the impresson he is the type who would want to know everything that's going on - and to be in the middle of it.
The fact that he wasn't seen by people who knew him isn't proof that he wasn't there. The fact that 7 people in total said they saw him that night is far more relevant IMO
The Times (now, sadly, subscription only) ran two, excellent articles about Robert Murat, one by Matthew Parris, the other a profile.
The profile in particular gave testimony, except in a positive way, to the sort of person Robert Murat is, the type of person most people would die for as a neighbour precisely because of his qualities who wants to help, wants to be involved, would think nothing of being woken in the middle of the night to change a light bulb for someone, almost over-exuberant and friendly.
It's not hard to see how such qualities, against the backdrop of something as sinister as a missing and abducted little girl, might be misconstrued and misrepresented.
I know the Matthew piece is around on line. I'll see if I can find the profile.
Thanks Ferryman. I was trying to think of a word to describe him - my first thought was 'busybody' - but that does have an a negative vibe to it which is not how I see him Then I thought of 'do-gooder' but unfortunately that description is not normally used in a positive way either. I still havent thought of an appropriate word.
I entirely agree that his choice to involve himself so deeply in this case from the start, albeit with benign intentions, could be misconstrued.
Community-spirited?
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Community-spirited?
Sounds like it ;)
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It's not hard to see how such qualities, against the backdrop of something as sinister as a missing and abducted little girl, might be misconstrued and misrepresented.
I know the Matthew piece is around on line. I'll see if I can find the profile.
Try to find it, please Ferryman, this is how I always understood Robert M was. Not at all the guy who "panicks and denies etc.", to say nothing of Fiona and Co really absent-minded (but with severe consequences ; they were very lucky Robert M didn't sue them for confirming he was the one) statements.
Unfortunately I can't find it, other than on the Times site, to which you need to be a subscriber to access articles.
The profile was based on the experience of someone who worked with Murat when he was a car salesman in Norfolk, UK.
It was really quite revealing. I'm tempted to subscribe, just to pull out that article.
But I can certainly find the Matthew Parris piece.
Benice:
Community-spirited?
Bingo!
(For me, at least).
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The Times
From The Times August 25, 2007
MuratMatthew Parris
The forgotten victim in the McCann case
Our columnist on the disgraceful hounding of Robert
Do you have a mother? Have you ever shared a house with her? Might you have dealt with anyone a couple of years past his teens who (for all you know) could have boasted to someone else about seducing an underage girl? Might you be separated from a spouse and conduct another affair? Might you love your daughter? Might you have a cellar in your house? Might you assist local efforts to trace a missing child?
Well watch out, because if any toddler should go missing anywhere near you, and you were to be (not unreasonably) questioned by police, the British press could have had you hanged, drawn and quartered by Monday.
A life has been destroyed after the abduction of Madeleine McCann. Perhaps two, for we do not yet know Madeleine’s fate, and perhaps we never will. But for Robert Murat, the one-time suspect whom much of the British newspaper industry and parts of the Portuguese media casually decided to convict, a life lies in ruins. There is no redemption for Mr Murat now, not if the Angel Gabriel should appear on television to exonerate him. The name alone brings a shudder.
But nobody closely involved with this case believes any longer that Mr Murat is anything but an innocent man. For the rest of the world, however, glancing in passing at headlines and skimming news reports over its coffee, the name Murat is now synonymous with “creepy oddball and obvious suspect”.
His reputation will not now be rescued even by the arrest and conviction of anyone else. Imagine today giving your name at a hotel reception as Robert Murat — or Colin Stagg, or Sally Clark. Linkages between a crime and a name are set up in the public imagination and persist even after the story has changed direction. “Robert Murat — wasn’t he the one suspected of taking Maddie? Or cleared of it? Whatever. Mixed up in it anyway.”
For the record, Robert Murat is an Anglo-Portuguese man in his early thirties who has separated from his English wife, has a girlfriend estranged from her own husband, and is sharing a house with his mother, not far from where Madeleine McCann disappeared. After her disappearance he volunteered to help. He hired a car for a few days. His house has a cellar. He has a friendly business connection with a 22-year-old
Russian IT operative, Sergey Malinka, who was (it was reported) claimed by a workmate once to have boasted about underage sex. Mr Murat and Mr Malinka have spoken to each other on mobile phones. And Mr Murat has a four-year-old daughter who (somebody says) looks like Madeleine. Oh — and he’s blind in one eye.
Allegations have swirled around about computers on which pornographic websites have been accessed; but as a large proportion of computers worldwide would answer to that description and the claims have been neither confirmed nor elucidated, I shall not pursue these.
Now watch the British media at work. Exercising a courtesy not extended to Mr Murat, I shall name neither papers nor reporters. Let the headlines (in italics) and reports that follow provide a handy journalists’ guide to assassination-by-innuendo.
“ MADDIE SUSPECT BEHAVED JUST LIKE HUNTLEY: Kidnapping has weird echoes of Soham case. The prime suspect in the kidnap of Madeleine McCann interfered in the investigation as soon as the search for her began, it emerged yesterday. Briton Robert Murat, 33, even tried to comfort Madeleine’s distraught parents, Kate and Gerry, in the hours after she was snatched . . . One holidaymaker said: ‘There was a feeling that his behaviour was similar to that displayed by Huntley.’ Murat was said to have volunteered to act as a translator . . .”
“ Maddie: Russian ‘pervert’ quizzed by cops. A Russian computer ace linked to suspect Robert Murat was being quizzed last night . . . Sergey Malinka, 22 . . . who helped Murat, 33, set up a website – was picked up in a police swoop . . .
“ HUNT FOR MADDIE: POLICE IN NEW VILLA SWOOP COMPUTER RAID. . . Malinka, 22, said he . . . worked on a computer owned by the one-eyed Briton . . . Meanwhile it emerged there is an underfloor chamber at [Murat’s] home, 100 yards from where Maddie, four, was snatched as she slept in a holiday apartment in Praia da Luz a fortnight ago . . .”
“ Revealed: The cellar in suspect’s villa. . .‘There is a hole in the floor that we used as access when we were putting all the pipes in, so it’s big enough for a man to get down inside.’” “ His girl is the spitting image of Madeleine. Robert Murat has been pining for his four-year-old daughter Sofia, a ‘spitting image’ of missing Madeleine, friends revealed yesterday . . .”
“ Sex secret of Madeleine suspect: Briton ‘shared’ the wife of pool cleaner at villa. While friends and relatives portrayed suspect Robert Murat as a devoted family man, a darker picture emerged of an irritating oddball who loves to be the centre of attention. A one-eyed estate agent, former car salesman and turkey farm worker . . . it also emerged that Murat was caught up in a bizarre love triangle . . .”
“ One minute the Murats were happy with their new life in Portugal, the next their marriage was in tatters . . . his wife never said why it ended FAMILY FRIEND: Friends of Robert Murat’s ex-wife told last night how she suddenly walked out on him — but she would not say why.”
“ A PHONEY ALIBI? 11.40pm call on the night she went missing. Murat told police he was at home in bed” . . . Detectives are said to be concerned that though Murat and Malinka claim to be only business acquaintances they were captured on CCTV speaking animatedly . . . Murat also rented a hire car for three days after the abduction, possibly after he realised he was under police surveillance.”
“ The police haven’t told the family what is on Murat’s computer. They want to shield them. . .” . . . And so it went on for about a week: a week in which Mr Murat saw his good name torn apart. The damage done, a cautionary note then crept in . . .
“Despite the discoveries, nothing was found to connect Briton Murat to Madeleine . . .”
And, months later, nothing has been. There is speculation that the Portuguese police will formally exonerate Mr Murat soon. I don’t even know he is innocent. But I do know that, though “innocent until proved guilty” is a counsel of perfection, and though it is sometimes impossible to write useful reports without fingering guilty and innocent alike, there are still limits — cloudy though they must necessarily be. Reporting in this case has smashed right through them.
The whole disgusting business, the whole media-driven infatuation with this little girl and her parents, the whole sick, morbid, sentimental campaign of news generation and news manipulation, has been a disgrace to the British media.
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Robert M was a victim of his arguido status which couldn't be removed, though he had been exonerated (mainly by the dogs), before the end of the investigation, the end of which was postponed in order to make a reconstruction.
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Robert M was a victim of his arguido status which couldn't be removed, though he had been exonerated (mainly by the dogs), before the end of the investigation, the end of which was postponed in order to make a reconstruction.
Not nearly the truth.
Not in any way 'exonerated' by the dogs.
Cannot arguido status be removed anyway.
Where is your evidence that the closing of the investigation was dependent only on a reconstruction- IIRC the longest delay was caused by the failure to file rogatory papers properly.
But any excuse to blame the McCanns or tapas!
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Sounds as tho he is like his mum then. She tried to help and it was misconstrued.
How would the confession box on the beach have helped in the search of a missing girl?
Distracted, hindered posssibly - but helped - in what way - Jenny was a nurse not a criminologist.
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This has been largely forgotten too:
Sunday Mirror
The Search for Madeleine Day 25 :
By Grant Hodgson, Nick Owens and Tom Hendry 27/05/2007
quote:
In June 2005 they went to live with Murat and his mother Jenny at her villa, Casa Liliana. But cracks began to appear when Murat started working long hours, desperate to be a success as an estate agent.
"Our home life began to suffer," she recalls. "He was spending less and less time with Sofia and we fought about it. Our rows got worse and worse, but Rob was never violent. He never hit me or Sofia."
In September 2005 homesick Dawn flew back to the UK with Sofia for a few days. Then came that phone call from Murat.
Although Murat regularly returns to Britain to see Sofia - and last year brought Michaela with him - neither Dawn nor Sofia have been back to Portugal since.
Dawn reveals how after she began divorce proceedings she gave Sofia's passport and birth certificate to a family member for safekeeping.
She says: "I was being cautious. You hear about mothers in similar situations to mine who lose their child to a partner who's abroad.
"Of course it crossed my mind that it might happen to me but I never seriously thought Rob would take Sofia."
Given the heartbreak she has suffered, Dawn is very charitable about Murat, and believes he is not guilty of Madeleine's abduction.
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NB to the above
The Schengen treaty stipulates that any country signing up to it allows it's citizens to travel within
the Schengen territory without passport controls.
The UK is not signatory to this treaty.
In other words if a person travels from say France to the UK or vice versa - they need to show their passport.
If however a person travels from Portugal to Spain (two signatory countries) they do not have to show their passport.
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NB to the above
Had Madeleine been taken but her passport had been left behind (according to Team McCann nothing of value was taken from 5a) then it's more likely than not that Madeleine would still be within the Schengen territory - rather than say the US, Australia, Egypt - or indeed Britain.
Just musings on my part
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Final NB to the above: I promise 8(0(*
http://www.axa-schengen.com/en/schengen-countries
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NB to the above
The Schengen treaty stipulates that any country signing up to it allows it's citizens to travel within
the Schengen territory without passport controls.
The UK is not signatory to this treaty.
In other words if a person travels from say France to the UK or vice versa - they need to show their passport.
If however a person travels from Portugal to Spain (two signatory countries) they do not have to show their passport.
Not necessarily a passport (I never, even before Schengen, had to show a passport from France to the UK), but an identity card.
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NB to the above
The Schengen treaty stipulates that any country signing up to it allows it's citizens to travel within
the Schengen territory without passport controls.
The UK is not signatory to this treaty.
In other words if a person travels from say France to the UK or vice versa - they need to show their passport.
If however a person travels from Portugal to Spain (two signatory countries) they do not have to show their passport.
But the Schengen treaty also allows each participant nation to impose temporary border controls of its own volition in response to temporary emergencies
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Yes. But not if a child disappeared and could have been seen carried by a walker.
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Yes. But not if a child disappeared and could have been seen carried by a walker.
Eh?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13194723
In what circumstances can countries reimpose border controls?
Under article 2.2 of the treaty, signatories may reinstate border controls for a short period, if this is necessary for "public policy or national security" reasons.
The clause says "contracting parties [Schengen states] may, after consulting the other contracting parties, decide that for a limited period national border checks appropriate to the situation shall be carried out at internal borders".
They can do so if necessary immediately, and then inform the other Schengen members.
France did this around the 60th anniversary of D-Day in June 2004 and after the bomb attacks on London in 2005.
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NB to the above
The Schengen treaty stipulates that any country signing up to it allows it's citizens to travel within
the Schengen territory without passport controls.
The UK is not signatory to this treaty.
In other words if a person travels from say France to the UK or vice versa - they need to show their passport.
If however a person travels from Portugal to Spain (two signatory countries) they do not have to show their passport.
But the Schengen treaty also allows each participant nation to impose temporary border controls of its own volition in response to temporary emergencies
true - but let's put you in the driving seat ferryman
You are head of the GNR the night of the disappearance
The call comes through - little girl in Luz went missing
Would you man all crossing points into Spain and impose 'emergency' passport controls
Thus severly impeding traffic and commerce?
No, I don't think you would
Given the probability that the child could be found at any moment playing under a table near the Ocean Club
Reality - not flights of fancy please
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NB to the above
The Schengen treaty stipulates that any country signing up to it allows it's citizens to travel within
the Schengen territory without passport controls.
The UK is not signatory to this treaty.
In other words if a person travels from say France to the UK or vice versa - they need to show their passport.
If however a person travels from Portugal to Spain (two signatory countries) they do not have to show their passport.
But the Schengen treaty also allows each participant nation to impose temporary border controls of its own volition in response to temporary emergencies
true - but let's put you in the driving seat ferryman
You are head of the GNR the night of the disappearance
The call comes through - little girl in Luz went missing
Would you man all crossing points into Spain and imposed 'emergency' passport controls
Thus severly impeding traffic and commerce?
No, I don't think you would
Given the probability that the child could be found at any moment playing under a table near the Ocean Club
Reality - not flights of fancy please
I suspect a decision would need to be taken at a more senior level than GNR. And clearly a judgment would have to be made about when was the right time to impose border control.
But given there is always the option of lifting it immediately upon a resolution of the crisis (finding Madeleine, alive or dead), I would think a swift decision could be reached, and no blame attached in the event of a positive outcome ...
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NB to the above
The Schengen treaty stipulates that any country signing up to it allows it's citizens to travel within
the Schengen territory without passport controls.
The UK is not signatory to this treaty.
In other words if a person travels from say France to the UK or vice versa - they need to show their passport.
If however a person travels from Portugal to Spain (two signatory countries) they do not have to show their passport.
But the Schengen treaty also allows each participant nation to impose temporary border controls of its own volition in response to temporary emergencies
true - but let's put you in the driving seat ferryman
You are head of the GNR the night of the disappearance
The call comes through - little girl in Luz went missing
Would you man all crossing points into Spain and imposed 'emergency' passport controls
Thus severly impeding traffic and commerce?
No, I don't think you would
Given the probability that the child could be found at any moment playing under a table near the Ocean Club
Reality - not flights of fancy please
I suspect a decision would need to be taken at a more senior level than GNR. And clearly a judgment would have to be made about when was the right time to impose border control.
But given there is always the option of lifting it immediately upon a resolution of the crisis (finding Madeleine, alive or dead), I would think a swift decision could be reached, and no blame attached in the event of a positive outcome ...
Laudable philosophical concept
yet hardly practical
As head of the GNR or any other agency
You would NOT have made that call
Clear and present danger was NOT apparent at that time
And you have your pension to think about
That's the stark face of realpolitik
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If, as I understand to be the case, there are many ways of crossing over the border from Portugal to Spain - including little country roads - I don't actually find it realistic to expect the authorities to immediately man every single crossing within a 3-hour drive, let alone to continue to do so for days.
Likely or not, she could have been driven close to a border and been taken into a little marina or private beach in Spain by boat, for example.
Or, she could have been driven up north and been moved across from there, either soon after or possibly days later.
The logistics of the geography and open borders would seem to make instant comprehensive border alerts unlikely in this kind of situation.
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The fact that he wasn't seen by people who knew him isn't proof that he wasn't there. The fact that 7 people in total said they saw him that night is far more relevant IMO
Please provide a link to the 4 others, Benice.
My apols Anne - it was 6 in total Anne.
Apart from Fiona Payne there was:-
Jayne Jensen
A British Barrister who corroberated Mrs. Jenson's sighting.
Charlotte Pennington
Rachel Oldfield
Russell O'Brien.
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I really don't think the borders would be reactivated in the proven case of an abducted child by strangers. The European alarm would be deployed over Europe, that's all and that's good.
As Madeleine was no baby, can you imagine her drugged for months, years ? I can't.
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I really don't think the borders would be reactivated in the proven case of an abducted child by strangers. The European alarm would be deployed over Europe, that's all and that's good.
As Madeleine was no baby, can you imagine her drugged for months, years ? I can't.
Good intentions and even legislation aren't necessarily followed by the availability of practical (and practised) means of implementation.
Nonetheless, the concept is moving forward.
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The fact that he wasn't seen by people who knew him isn't proof that he wasn't there. The fact that 7 people in total said they saw him that night is far more relevant IMO
Please provide a link to the 4 others, Benice.
My apols Anne - it was 6 in total Anne.
Apart from Fiona Payne there was:-
Jayne Jensen
A British Barrister who corroberated Mrs. Jenson's sighting.
Charlotte Pennington
Rachel Oldfield
Russell O'Brien.
Who is Jayne Jensen (not in the files), the lady who said she had dinner at the Tapas on the 3rd ? Why does she have to be corroborated ?
I can't find such a "sighting" in Miss Pennington's statement (Robert M. was the interpret).
Do you by chance know how many persons denied Robert M. was there ?
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The fact that he wasn't seen by people who knew him isn't proof that he wasn't there. The fact that 7 people in total said they saw him that night is far more relevant IMO
Please provide a link to the 4 others, Benice.
My apols Anne - it was 6 in total Anne.
Apart from Fiona Payne there was:-
Jayne Jensen
A British Barrister who corroberated Mrs. Jenson's sighting.
Charlotte Pennington
Rachel Oldfield
Russell O'Brien.
Who is Jayne Jensen (not in the files), the lady who said she had dinner at the Tapas on the 3rd ? Why does she have to be corroborated ?
I can't find such a "sighting" in Miss Pennington's statement (Robert M. was the interpret).
Do you by chance know how many persons denied Robert M. was there ?
List of Murat translations, Anne. I think all are staff?
Witness statement
Charlotte Elizabeth Anne Pennington
Date/Time: 2007/05/07 14H30
Childcare Worker
Irish Citizen
Translator Robert Murat
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CHARLOTTE-PENNINGTON.htm
Kirsty Louise Maryan
Date/Time: 2007/05/07 14H30
Child Educator
British (translated by Robert Murat)
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KIRSTY-MARYAN.htm
Pauline Frances McCann
Date/Time: 2007/05/07 18H35
Infant Educator
British (Translator: Robert Murat)
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAULINE-MCCANN.htm
Catriona Treasa Sisile Baker
Childcare Worker
Time/Date: 18H36 2007/05/06
British Citizen
Translated by Robert Murat
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CATRIONA-TREASA.htm
Stacey Portz
(statement translated by Robert Murat)
Creche Worker
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STACY-POTZ.htm
Susan Bernadette Owen
Date/Time: 2007/05/07 19H40
Infant Educator (Translator: Robert Murat)
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SUSAN-OWEN.htm
Jayne Jensen and Anne Wiltshire, mentioned here.
05-CARTAS ROGATORIAS UK Pages 30 to 32
Statement by: Neil Berry
At about 16.00 we were at the swimming pool bar within the complex. It was at this time that we had a few drinks with Raj Balu, Jayne Jensen and Anne Wiltshire, as I testified in my statement of 8th January 2008. My family returned to the apartment at about 17.000 and the four of us remained at the pool bar. I must have stayed there for another half an hour before joining my family in the apartment. When I left Jensen and Wiltshire remained at the bar.
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http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/05/20/madeleine-mccann-s-parents-get-fresh-hope-as-operation-grange-ids-20.html
I cant keep up
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List of Murat translations, Anne. I think all are staff?
Witness statement
Charlotte Elizabeth Anne Pennington
Date/Time: 2007/05/07 14H30
Childcare Worker
Irish Citizen
Translator Robert Murat
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CHARLOTTE-PENNINGTON.htm
Kirsty Louise Maryan
Date/Time: 2007/05/07 14H30
Child Educator
British (translated by Robert Murat)
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KIRSTY-MARYAN.htm
Pauline Frances McCann
Date/Time: 2007/05/07 18H35
Infant Educator
British (Translator: Robert Murat)
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAULINE-MCCANN.htm
Catriona Treasa Sisile Baker
Childcare Worker
Time/Date: 18H36 2007/05/06
British Citizen
Translated by Robert Murat
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CATRIONA-TREASA.htm
Stacey Portz
(statement translated by Robert Murat)
Creche Worker
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STACY-POTZ.htm
Susan Bernadette Owen
Date/Time: 2007/05/07 19H40
Infant Educator (Translator: Robert Murat)
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SUSAN-OWEN.htm
Jayne Jensen and Anne Wiltshire, mentioned here.
05-CARTAS ROGATORIAS UK Pages 30 to 32
Statement by: Neil Berry
At about 16.00 we were at the swimming pool bar within the complex. It was at this time that we had a few drinks with Raj Balu, Jayne Jensen and Anne Wiltshire, as I testified in my statement of 8th January 2008. My family returned to the apartment at about 17.000 and the four of us remained at the pool bar. I must have stayed there for another half an hour before joining my family in the apartment. When I left Jensen and Wiltshire remained at the bar.
[Name removed] and AW are no staff at all. They pretended to have had dinner at the Tapas, but the Restaurant book shows it's not true.
Who identified Robert M. as present near the flat on the 3rd of May night, apart from the TP3 ?
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http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/05/20/madeleine-mccann-s-parents-get-fresh-hope-as-operation-grange-ids-20.html
I cant keep up
Big dilemma : if you keep up, you're a fairy tale believer, if you don't keep up, you're a heartless materialist. Tough life.
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Getting back to the original thread topic, I've been wondering ... we have now been made aware that there were possibly, two occasions when Madeleine cried ... one when Mrs Fenn heard her becoming increasingly distressed for an hour and a quarter, and then again, the following night, when the mystery couple went into the apartment to 'soothe' her
How can that be ?
If the tapas group have been honest about their checking regime then barely 10 minutes could ever have passed without one or other of them, on their trips back and fore, being close enough to the McCann apartment to have heard Madeleine crying
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Getting back to the original thread topic, I've been wondering ... we have now been made aware that there were possibly, two occasions when Madeleine cried ... one when Mrs Fenn heard her becoming increasingly distressed for an hour and a quarter, and then again, the following night, when the mystery couple went into the apartment to 'soothe' her
How can that be ?
If the tapas group have been honest about their checking regime then barely 10 minutes could ever have passed without one or other of them, on their trips back and fore, being close enough to the McCann apartment to have heard Madeleine crying
You're right, Icabodcrane, any parent checking a child on the north face of the G5 would have heard a crying. It confirms my feeling they checked before meal was served because they were not sure the kids were deeply sleeping. Once asleep, from 21:30 on, what could happen ? Mr or Mrs Oldfield neither went to check on their child at 10 or asked Mrs McCann to do it.
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SY have not mentioned anything about two people entering apartment 5a on the 2nd May to comfort Madeleine.
I would have thought that if someone had given a statement about seeing this couple entering 5a on the evening before Madeleine was abducted, we would have heard about it by now.
I am not taking this article seriously until SY themselves report it.
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SY have not mentioned anything about two people entering apartment 5a on the 2nd May to comfort Madeleine.
I would have thought that if someone had given a statement about seeing this couple entering 5a on the evening before Madeleine was abducted, we would have heard about it by now.
I am not taking this article seriously until SY themselves report it.
Agree. Surely if this couple were that concerned they would go to Reception and report it. I don't know of anyone who would dream of going into a stranger's apartment to soothe a crying child.
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Surely if this couple were that concerned they would go to Reception and report it. I don't know of anyone who would dream of going into a stranger's apartment to soothe a crying child.
I agree with that Benice. You would go and report it to one of the reception areas immediately. Entering someone else's apartment would simply be asking for trouble.
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You hear a child's crying, more than crying, sobbing "daddy" or whatever, it doesn't stop, you hear no adult voice, don't you knock at the door ? If no one answers, don't you try the door ? If the door is open, don't you get scared and decide you better act, opening a bit, risking your head and calling "is anybody there?" ?
Sometimes calling the authorities is too late or more embarrassing for the parents. A child can be in a dangerous situation.
My nephew (both parents are doctors) was crying so much calling Mummy, Daddy (who were close to him) that the neighbour downstairs called the police...
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SY have not mentioned anything about two people entering apartment 5a on the 2nd May to comfort Madeleine.
I would have thought that if someone had given a statement about seeing this couple entering 5a on the evening before Madeleine was abducted, we would have heard about it by now.
I am not taking this article seriously until SY themselves report it.
Agree. Surely if this couple were that concerned they would go to Reception and report it. I don't know of anyone who would dream of going into a stranger's apartment to soothe a crying child.
Ditto - call reception or the cops - hell even hit the fire alarm button if in desperation
Go in and check for yourself? - never in a million years - your own life could be destroyed in an instance - but the child might not even be at any risk.
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I suppose it depends on the circumstances as every situation is different. If the crying was in some isolated chalet one might be tempted to knock loudly and ask if everything was ok and if the door was unlocked possibly venture in slightly calling out if anyone needed help. It all comes down to common sense in such a situation.
If it was the situation as at the Ocean Club I would go immediately to reception and have them communicate with the registered tenant. I would insist that they did it as a matter of some urgency. I would probably then watch from a distance to ensure someone was summoned.
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You hear a child's crying, more than crying, sobbing "daddy" or whatever, it doesn't stop, you hear no adult voice, don't you knock at the door ? If no one answers, don't you try the door ? If the door is open, don't you get scared and decide you better act, opening a bit, risking your head and calling "is anybody there?" ?
Sometimes calling the authorities is too late or more embarrassing for the parents. A child can be in a dangerous situation.
My nephew (both parents are doctors) was crying so much calling Mummy, Daddy (who were close to him) that the neighbour downstairs called the police...
To begin with Anne there is nothing unusual in hearing a child cry from behind any closed doors as you are passing by. There are any number of perfectly legitimate reasons - and because you hear a child crying you don't automatically assume they must be on their own. In fact if I heard a child calling Daddy, I would assume Daddy was there!
IMO You would have to be standing there for a very very long time before you started to wonder if everything was OK. So for what reason would anyone want to stand outside 5A - even for a couple of minutes? There is nothing there.
Makes no sense to me. I think the story is nonsense.
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Benice-I agree, i think it is nonsence this whole tale.
If the tapas was as close as claimed (and if they could see the patio door as claimed, then the people who went into the apartment could be seen and also see the people at the tapas) and people were trapsing back and forth to check on their kids, then how did the couple enter the apartment unseen (if the other door was locked)? Does it not highlight the the issue of they couldn't really see the apartment from the tapas? It was further away than they thought? Wouldn't the people entering have heard the people at the tapas and shouted to them 'Who's is this flat does anyone know? Surely if and I say if because I'm not convinced anyone did enter the flat, it opens a whole new can of worms or is it a case of 'Oh, so thats why the kids were crying and Maddie asked why we didn't come' or it confirms that Mrs Fenn did indeed hear crying for a long period outside? I live in a block and to establish where noise is coming from, all you have to do is go outside if you want to know whats occuring.
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I suppose it depends on the circumstances as every situation is different. If the crying was in some isolated chalet one might be tempted to knock loudly and ask if everything was ok and if the door was unlocked possibly venture in slightly calling out if anyone needed help. It all comes down to common sense in such a situation.
If it was the situation as at the Ocean Club I would go immediately to reception and have them communicate with the registered tenant. I would insist that they did it as a matter of some urgency. I would probably then watch from a distance to ensure someone was summoned.
In the interest of debate and not being facetious John,
now you've been to reception - reported a child(ren) was/were crying full pelt in an apt.
And then the receptionist tells you '37b? they cry every night - it's no big deal'
Where would you go from there?
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Benice-I agree, i think it is nonsence this whole tale.
If the tapas was as close as claimed (and if they could see the patio door as claimed, then the people who went into the apartment could be seen and also see the people at the tapas) and people were trapsing back and forth to check on their kids, then how did the couple enter the apartment unseen (if the other door was locked)? Does it not highlight the the issue of they couldn't really see the apartment from the tapas? It was further away than they thought? Wouldn't the people entering have heard the people at the tapas and shouted to them 'Who's is this flat does anyone know? Surely if and I say if because I'm not convinced anyone did enter the flat, it opens a whole new can of worms or is it a case of 'Oh, so thats why the kids were crying and Maddie asked why we didn't come' or it confirms that Mrs Fenn did indeed hear crying for a long period outside? I live in a block and to establish where noise is coming from, all you have to do is go outside if you want to know whats occuring.
Joanne,
How could they enter the apartment unseen? When someone reports, they saw them enter. Madeliene is a bright child, she would have said if anyone had been in that apartment, I'm sure!
Why didn't this couple the Express interviewed, last week, mention any of this on the 5th May 2007
I have my own thoughts on where the crying story came from! And I don't think it was Mrs Fenn!
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Benice-I agree, i think it is nonsence this whole tale.
If the tapas was as close as claimed (and if they could see the patio door as claimed, then the people who went into the apartment could be seen and also see the people at the tapas) and people were trapsing back and forth to check on their kids, then how did the couple enter the apartment unseen (if the other door was locked)? Does it not highlight the the issue of they couldn't really see the apartment from the tapas? It was further away than they thought? Wouldn't the people entering have heard the people at the tapas and shouted to them 'Who's is this flat does anyone know? Surely if and I say if because I'm not convinced anyone did enter the flat, it opens a whole new can of worms or is it a case of 'Oh, so thats why the kids were crying and Maddie asked why we didn't come' or it confirms that Mrs Fenn did indeed hear crying for a long period outside? I live in a block and to establish where noise is coming from, all you have to do is go outside if you want to know whats occuring.
The apartment block where they were all staying was right opposite them across the pool. And they could all see their own apartments - even if 5A was not as visible as the others. Wasn't there a comment by one of the group - that they could see the Paynes walking around in their apartment from the Tapas restaurant - on the 3rd?
I think pyschologically speaking - that fact made them feel very safe. In fact safer than if they had been sitting in a place which might have been nearer - but where they had no view of their block at all. (If you see what I mean.)
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DCI:
How could they enter the apartment unseen? When someone reports, they saw them enter. Madeliene is a bright child, she would have said if anyone had been in that apartment, I'm sure!
And to anticipate a possible response to that: The McCanns would scarcely have said if someone had entered the apartment, now. would they?
The answer is that they would not have mentioned crying at all, now, would they? ...
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DCI:
How could they enter the apartment unseen? When someone reports, they saw them enter. Madeliene is a bright child, she would have said if anyone had been in that apartment, I'm sure!
And to anticipate a possible response to that: The McCanns would scarcely have said if someone had entered the apartment, now. would they?
The answer is that they would not have mentioned crying at all, now, would they? ...
My thoughts exactly, lol.
It seems the McCann's were too honest, for their own good.
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Benice-I agree, i think it is nonsence this whole tale.
If the tapas was as close as claimed (and if they could see the patio door as claimed, then the people who went into the apartment could be seen and also see the people at the tapas) and people were trapsing back and forth to check on their kids, then how did the couple enter the apartment unseen (if the other door was locked)? Does it not highlight the the issue of they couldn't really see the apartment from the tapas? It was further away than they thought? Wouldn't the people entering have heard the people at the tapas and shouted to them 'Who's is this flat does anyone know? Surely if and I say if because I'm not convinced anyone did enter the flat, it opens a whole new can of worms or is it a case of 'Oh, so thats why the kids were crying and Maddie asked why we didn't come' or it confirms that Mrs Fenn did indeed hear crying for a long period outside? I live in a block and to establish where noise is coming from, all you have to do is go outside if you want to know whats occuring.
The apartment block where they were all staying was right opposite them across the pool. And they could all see their own apartments - even if 5A was not as visible as the others. Wasn't there a comment by one of the group - that they could see the Paynes walking around in their apartment from the Tapas restaurant - on the 3rd?
I think pyschologically speaking - that fact made them feel very safe. In fact safer than if they had been sitting in a place which might have been nearer - but where they had no view of their block at all. (If you see what I mean.)
I see what you mean and agree fully with your assessment - depending on what photos one uses - 'some'
of 5a could be seen from the Tapas bar - combined with the fact that Luz is the most tranquil holiday resort I've ever encountered - that might have lured the doctors to take a 'calculated risk'.
Doesn't excuse their behaviour in any way, shape or form (it certainly wouldn't have been my behaviour) - but might make it more plausible.
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Benice-I agree, i think it is nonsence this whole tale.
If the tapas was as close as claimed (and if they could see the patio door as claimed, then the people who went into the apartment could be seen and also see the people at the tapas) and people were trapsing back and forth to check on their kids, then how did the couple enter the apartment unseen (if the other door was locked)? Does it not highlight the the issue of they couldn't really see the apartment from the tapas? It was further away than they thought? Wouldn't the people entering have heard the people at the tapas and shouted to them 'Who's is this flat does anyone know? Surely if and I say if because I'm not convinced anyone did enter the flat, it opens a whole new can of worms or is it a case of 'Oh, so thats why the kids were crying and Maddie asked why we didn't come' or it confirms that Mrs Fenn did indeed hear crying for a long period outside? I live in a block and to establish where noise is coming from, all you have to do is go outside if you want to know whats occuring.
Joanne,
How could they enter the apartment unseen? When someone reports, they saw them enter. Madeliene is a bright child, she would have said if anyone had been in that apartment, I'm sure!
Why didn't this couple the Express interviewed, last week, mention any of this on the 5th May 2007
I have my own thoughts on where the crying story came from! And I don't think it was Mrs Fenn!
The Mccanns claimed they could see the patio doors from where they sat in the tapas, if someone got into the apartment, clearly they couldn't or they weren't looking.
Benice is right, it felt safe psycologically.
I think this whole tale is nothing more than that, it's only just emerged after all this time and isn't in the original case files-or at least if it was, I have never seen it, I'd have thought if it was right, the pj's, the private investigators, the media et al would want it publishing it straight away and it got it out there to be honest.
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I see what you mean and agree fully with your assessment - depending on what photos one uses - 'some'
of 5a could be seen from the Tapas bar - combined with the fact that Luz is the most tranquil holiday resort I've ever encountered - that might have lured the doctors to take a 'calculated risk'.
Doesn't excuse their behaviour in any way, shape or form (it certainly wouldn't have been my behaviour) - but might make it more plausible.
You really must learn to separate fact from opinion. It would excuse their behaviour for a lot of people. You may feel like that, others may feel differently quite justifiably. Stop assuming the whole world shares your prejudices.
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And the same applies to you, not everyone thinks they're entirely innocent either in all of this and just because it doesn't suit your agenda you don't need to run to their defense every two minutes, you still continue to display the behaviour you accuse everyone else of doing and you show no signs of letting up, even though you have been told time and time again. I'm not asking you to accept my opinion but I am entitled to it and I will show it.
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Is it permitted to report hypocrisy as well?
Up to admin - I suppose
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Talking of opinions, I am starting a new thread to gauge everyone's views and opinions and if their position over what happened at the Ocean Club on the 3rd May 2007 has changed over the last 6 years.
Every reported post is checked out so ensure that anything you report is unacceptable rather than being simply undesirable.
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There were 4 apartments in block 5, and one in block 4, never searched. Now was that incompetence or laziness? 8()(((@#
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There were 4 apartments in block 5, and one in block 4, never searched. Now was that incompetence or laziness? 8()(((@#
Was the empty apartment 'next door but one' to 5A ever searched? What an ideal place for abductors to hide - with a full view of the Tapas Bar from the back and a view of the carpark from the front - and only a few yards /seconds walk away from 5A. It was on that apartment balcony that Mrs Jensen and her sister saw two strangers standing.
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Likely not ideal to hide if they were seen..
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There were 4 apartments in block 5, and one in block 4, never searched. Now was that incompetence or laziness? 8()(((@#
Was the empty apartment 'next door but one' to 5A ever searched? What an ideal place for abductors to hide - with a full view of the Tapas Bar from the back and a view of the carpark from the front - and only a few yards /seconds walk away from 5A. It was on that apartment balcony that Mrs Jensen and her sister saw two strangers standing.
I think next door but two, so even better view. The women met police three times within 24 hours, tried to find out who the strangers were themselves and made several follow-up phone calls to the authorities.
But it was not until six weeks ago that a formal statement was finally taken.
So where are their statements?
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British witnesses: 'We saw two blond men on balcony next to Madeleine apartment'
By FIONA BARTON, DAN NEWLING and VANESSA ALLEN
Last updated at 15:55 31 December 2007
Two British sisters gave a dramatic account of a pair of strangers watching the Ocean Club pool and tapas bar hours before Madeleine McCann vanished.
In an exclusive interview, Jayne Jensen and Annie Wiltshire told how they saw two blond men in their 30s, standing on the balcony of an empty apartment only a couple of doors away from the McCanns' flat in Praia da Luz.
And they provided further evidence that Robert Murat, the first official suspect in the case, lied about his whereabouts on the night Madeleine disappeared.
Annie Wiltshire and Jayne Jensen told police they saw Murat near the apartment complex at about 10.30pm, some 30 minutes after Kate McCann raised the alarm
Video: We saw Murat outside the McCanns apartment
Mrs Jensen, a 54-year-old businesswoman, says she saw Mr Murat outside the McCann apartment half an hour after the alarm was raised.[
The expatriate estate agent claims he was at home with his elderly mother all night, but it has emerged that a British barrister on holiday with his wife and children has corroborated Mrs Jensen's account.
Although the two sisters contacted Portuguese police within hours of Madeleine's disappearance, their evidence was ignored for six months.
The women met police three times within 24 hours, tried to find out who the strangers were themselves and made several follow-up phone calls to the authorities.
But it was not until six weeks ago that a formal statement was finally taken.
The two women, both divorcees from Maidstone, Kent, spent 11 hours with British police officers providing details of their evidence and later met private detectives from Metodo 3, the agency employed by the McCanns to find their daughter.
They intended to remain anonymous but when their names were leaked to a Portuguese newspaper and they found themselves wrongly accused of waiting eight months before coming forward, they decided to reveal the truth.
The sisters said they were immediately struck by the behaviour of the two men on the balcony.
The Ocean Club complex in Praia da Luz. Jayne Jensen and her sister Annie Wiltshire even went back in September to try to contact the McCanns
The pair, tanned and in Bermuda shorts, were standing outside the patio doors of a groundfloor apartment, which had been unoccupied all week, and were looking out over the resort's family swimming pool and restaurant area.
Mrs Wiltshire, 58, a mother of two, said: "It was odd because I hadn't seen them before. In May the resort wasn't busy.
Murat: Two new witnesses claim to have seen him loitering near the complex where Madeleine was abducted
"There were only about 60 of us staying in the apartments and you got to recognise all the other people.
"One of the guys was walking down the steps and as I looked at him, he walked back up and started talking to the other one.
"They had a view of the whole Ocean Club and the McCanns' apartment. It just showed how easy it would be for anyone to use those balconies to watch the area. It has haunted me ever since."
That evening - May 3 - Madeleine disappeared from her bed as her parents, Gerry and Kate ate dinner with seven friends in the tapas bar.
The sisters, who helped search for the child that night, went to police the next day to report the sighting of the strangers and their concerns.
Mrs Wiltshire, who went on holiday with her sister to recover from a cancer operation, said: "The theory is that Madeleine could have been targeted. This story proves how easily it could have been done but the Portuguese police were not interested.
"It makes you wonder if there are more of us out there who have tried and not succeeded in reporting things they saw but have given up.
"They might not have been as persistent and tenacious as us but we were determined to get the information to the police somehow."
The two women had been in Praia da Luz for a week before the McCanns - Gerry, Kate, three-year-old Madeleine and two-year-old twins Sean and Amelie - arrived with a party of doctors for a short break.
Mrs Jensen and her sister were in the same daily tennis coaching group as Mr McCann. It was organised by Mark Warner, the tour operator which manages the Ocean Club complex.
"We never met Kate," Mrs Jensen said. "And we never socialised with Gerry. We just played tennis."
On the evening of May 3, the sisters ate in the same tapas restaurant as the McCann party.
Neither of them remembers the doctors being rowdy or drinking heavily that night, as other witnesses have suggested.
Mrs Jensen, a bar manager, said: "They were not noisy or dominating the restaurant. They were just a party of friends enjoying a meal."
The sisters finished their dinner and left to walk down into the village for a nightcap.
"We were on the way to the bar when we heard the hue and cry about a missing child," added Mrs Jensen.
"The Mark Warner staff were being called on their phones and everyone thought it was a child who had wandered out of her room, looking for her parents.
"Apparently it had happened before and there was a drill they carried out. I left Annie in the bar and came back up to the apartments to see if I could help. It was only then I realised the scale of the search.
"I went straight into the creche area and checked the play area and Wendy House but found nothing."
It was then that Mrs Jensen saw 34-year-old Mr Murat for the first time. She saw a man light a cigarette as he stood on the street corner opposite the McCanns' ground-floor apartment.
She said: "I had semi-given up smoking and was thinking I could do with a cigarette when this bloke just along the pavement from me lit up. I noticed him but didn't think anything more of it."
A middle-aged barrister, a near neighbour of Mrs Jensen in the holiday complex, has told police that he spoke to her at the time and also saw Mr Murat.
The next day, said Mrs Jensen, Mr Murat introduced himself to her and her sister.
"It was hideous when we realised that the little girl had not been found. It really began to hit home that something horrible had happened.
"I thought maybe she had fallen down a manhole, or hit her head. I didn't think she had been taken at that point and we helped search bins and scrubland."
As they and the other holidaymakers combed the area, Mrs Jensen met another member of her tennis coaching group, TV producer Jez Wilkins.
"Jez told me it was Gerry's daughter we were looking for. I hadn't realised before that moment.
"Jez said that he knew Gerry had checked the children because he had met him coming back from the apartment."
As the hours passed without any sighting of Madeleine, Mrs Wiltshire became increasingly concerned about the strangers she had seen the day before.
She said: "I didn't know if it was significant or not but I needed to tell the police in case it helped.
"I got a member of Mark Warner's staff to get a policeman to come and see me and told two officers about the men I had seen.
"I told them they were blond and one had curly hair. One was stockier than the other and they had obviously just opened the gate and walked up to the balcony.
"I showed the policemen the balcony and as I was explaining the circumstances, Robert Murat appeared and started translating for me."
Mr Murat was acting as an unofficial interpreter for the police and Mrs Wiltshire assumed he was part of the police force.
Later that day, she and her sister bumped into him again and he asked them if they needed any more help with the police and whether they had remembered anything else.
Mrs Jensen said: "He said he was helping the police because he lived locally and he was very helpful."
That evening, the two sisters joined the barrister and his wife for a glass of wine on the balcony of their apartment.
They were discussing Madeleine's disappearance and the apparent failure of the police to set up a crime scene when Mr Murat walked past, saw them and joined them uninvited.
Mrs Jensen said: "He was wearing a blue T-shirt and jeans and he said he needed to go home and change because it had been a long day, which was odd, because he had already changed out of the clothes he had been wearing earlier."
After Mr Murat left, the barrister told the sisters he found him "odd".
His wife was distraught about Madeleine's disappearance and the couple were desperate to leave the resort. Their names have not been revealed.
Mrs Jensen insists she is not conducting "a witch hunt" against Mr Murat.
"It was only after he was made an arguido (official suspect) that I realised any of this information could be important."
Other witnesses who have placed Mr Murat near the McCann apartment that night include Mark Warner nanny Charlotte Pennington, two tourists who contacted Metodo 3 independently and three of the McCanns' friends, Fiona Payne, Rachael Oldfield and Russell O'Brien.
But friends and family of Mr Murat insisted he was not there. His mother Jennifer, 71, said: "People who say he was outside Madeleine's apartment that night are telling lies.
"I challenge them to tell Portuguese police what they're telling the McCanns' investigators."
When Mrs Jensen got home, she made a number of calls to police and Crimestoppers. She gave them an outline of the sightings and was told someone would call her back but nobody did.
In September, the two women went back to Praia da Luz to try to make direct contact with the McCanns but as they arrived, Kate and Gerry were made official suspects and left to return to Britain.
The sisters admit they might have let things go at that point but the constant mention of Madeleine in the press kept nagging at them.
In desperation they finally e-mailed the McCanns' spokesman, Clarence Mitchell and told him what they knew.
Within days, they were contacted by Leicestershire police who apologised for the delay and sent an officer round to interview them.
"They were there for 11 hours, finishing at midnight and we finally got to sign a statement," added Mrs Jensen.
"All we wanted was to get the information to the right people. It is just ridiculous that no one would help us."
A spokesman for the McCanns said: "We remain extremely grateful to Annie and Jayne for making the efforts they have to get their information to us.
"They have been trying since day one and have only wanted to help Kate and Gerry find Madeleine.
"They are utterly credible witnesses and we are very grateful to them."
• Kate McCann hopes to return to Portugal once she has been cleared as a suspect in her daughter's disappearance, friends said yesterday.
Mrs McCann and her husband Gerry expect to be re-interviewed by police early in the New Year, and hope it will bring them a step closer to being eliminated as arguidos - official suspects.
The couple, both 39, would then be free to continue their campaign work and believe Portugal could still hold the key to finding Madeleine.
Once the lead story on every Portuguese television bulletin and newspaper, the case is now attracting less attention and an appeal by the McCanns would give the coverage fresh impetus.
But the couple cannot speak freely about the case while they remain arguidos as they are bound by the country's strict secrecy laws, which ban witnesses or suspects from talking about the case.
A friend said: "If they were to go to Portugal now it would seem like they were trying to put pressure on the police, and they don't want that.
"But if they were cleared as arguidos then it would change everything.
"They would be cleared in the eyes of the judicial system and technically in the eyes of the world, although they realise that there will always be some people who view them with suspicion."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-504950/British-witnesses-We-saw-blond-men-balcony-Madeleine-apartment.html#ixzz2Tx83HYD3
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http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/05/20/madeleine-mccann-s-parents-get-fresh-hope-as-operation-grange-ids-20.html
I cant keep up
Big dilemma : if you keep up, you're a fairy tale believer, if you don't keep up, you're a heartless materialist. Tough life.
I think the writer of that blog is making it up as they go along
Over the weekend, they were given even more fresh hope after Scotland Yard investigators, reviewing the work of the Portuguese police under a multimillion-dollar shadow investigation called Operation Grange, said they had pinpointed more than 20 “persons of interest” who may have vital information about Madeleine’s disappearance. The list includes many previously known characters, including a troupe of British freelance cleaners whose white van was spotted in the area when she disappeared. But there are also plenty of new names on the list, including a middle-aged mystery couple who supposedly rented a flat near the McCanns during the same period in 2007. The couple, whose names have not been released, told Pamela Fenn, who lived above the McCann rental apartment, that they had opened the unlocked door to the McCanns’ apartment the night before Madeleine disappeared to comfort the young child, whose cries were allegedly audible from their own apartment.
According to Fenn’s statement, it was well known that the McCanns had made it a habit to dine nearby after they put their children to bed, but it was also a common practice by other holidaymakers in the secure gated resort. It also was reportedly common knowledge that the young child’s cries were heard on more than one occasion when her parents were out, according to Fenn’s statement, which is in the Portuguese dossier and thus subject to Scotland Yard’s review. Fenn, who died two years ago, told Portuguese police about the couple, but because police were so focused on the McCanns as suspects, they apparently did not find the mystery couple’s alleged interference with the missing child relevant. Now Scotland Yard officials reportedly are urging the Portuguese police to reopen the case and find both the mystery couple and the British cleaners.
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There were 4 apartments in block 5, and one in block 4, never searched. Now was that incompetence or laziness? 8()(((@#
Was the empty apartment 'next door but one' to 5A ever searched? What an ideal place for abductors to hide - with a full view of the Tapas Bar from the back and a view of the carpark from the front - and only a few yards /seconds walk away from 5A. It was on that apartment balcony that Mrs Jensen and her sister saw two strangers standing.
I think next door but two, so even better view. The women met police three times within 24 hours, tried to find out who the strangers were themselves and made several follow-up phone calls to the authorities.
But it was not until six weeks ago that a formal statement was finally taken.
So where are their statements?
Obviously with the UK police, oh probably the wondrous metodo3 also have a copy, thats if there is any truth in this
It is a noticeable fact that once Metodo 3 got on the scene you had an explosion of dozens of questionable stories and some too ridiculous for words, for months and months, same happened with their other Pis imho
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Oh dear Luz, sounds like a thoroughly nasty piece of work, we have a few in this country too, awful specimens
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There were 4 apartments in block 5, and one in block 4, never searched. Now was that incompetence or laziness? 8()(((@#
Do you need a fire extinguisher?!
You seem to share something with the McCann - they were reported to be in rage for years, you are following suit.
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This tale about an alleged couple entering a strangers apartment to comfort a crying child is not only totally unfounded but utterly outrageous. Nobody would enter anyone's home under any circumstances; a responsible person would immediately call authorities.
This story goes way over what Pinky would create to feed the journos...I wonder what's behind it!
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So we now have two claims that someone was in the McCann's apartment the night before Madeleine disappeared
This latest version, that a concerned couple went in to comfort a crying child .... and the McCann's own version, that the abductor was in there doing a recce
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So we now have two claims that someone was in the McCann's apartment the night before Madeleine disappeared
This latest version, that a concerned couple went in to comfort a crying child .... and the McCann's own version, that the abductor was in there doing a recce
Bingo, well spotted
Kate mccanns story of a prerun 2nd may, confirmed by alledged sighting of a mystery couple going on on wednesday, yes right, stinks much? And mrs km did tell yvonne martin she thought a couple had taken madeleine
And nothing to do with mrs fenn whatsoever here or the moyes, a fabrication IMO
I just HOPE SY are not involved in these shenanigans
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So we now have two claims that someone was in the McCann's apartment the night before Madeleine disappeared
This latest version, that a concerned couple went in to comfort a crying child .... and the McCann's own version, that the abductor was in there doing a recce
Pretty crowded... unless the couple resolved abducting the crying child in order to comfort her.
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So we now have two claims that someone was in the McCann's apartment the night before Madeleine disappeared
This latest version, that a concerned couple went in to comfort a crying child .... and the McCann's own version, that the abductor was in there doing a recce
Was that their version? Or was it something the McCanns just wondered about - when they thought back - and KM couldn't pinpoint why Madeleine's pajama top had a stain on it. You make it sound as if the McCanns were claiming a 'reccie' as a definite fact rather than just a possibility. I don't think they did that.
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So we now have two claims that someone was in the McCann's apartment the night before Madeleine disappeared
This latest version, that a concerned couple went in to comfort a crying child .... and the McCann's own version, that the abductor was in there doing a recce
Was that their version? Or was it something the McCanns just wondered about - when they thought back - and KM couldn't pinpoint why Madeleine's pajama top had a stain on it. You make it sound as if the McCanns were claiming a 'reccie' as a definite fact rather than just a possibility. I don't think they did that.
"But it is my belief there was somebody either in or trying to get into the children's bedroom that night, and that is what disturbed them"
Kate, page 63 of her book
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So we now have two claims that someone was in the McCann's apartment the night before Madeleine disappeared
This latest version, that a concerned couple went in to comfort a crying child .... and the McCann's own version, that the abductor was in there doing a recce
Was that their version? Or was it something the McCanns just wondered about - when they thought back - and KM couldn't pinpoint why Madeleine's pajama top had a stain on it. You make it sound as if the McCanns were claiming a 'reccie' as a definite fact rather than just a possibility. I don't think they did that.
"But it is my belief there was somebody either in or trying to get into the children's bedroom that night, and that is what disturbed them"
Kate, page 63 of her book
Ahh right - My apols Icabodcrane - I stand corrected.
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"But it is my belief there was somebody either in or trying to get into the children's bedroom that night, and that is what disturbed them"
Kate, page 63 of her book
A little girl spots JT carrier entering her bedroom, likely thinks this is a nightmare and starts crying, JT carrier flies away swearing he'll be back with sedation stuff. And the following day the little girl "passes a remark" about where her parents were when she cried.
No comment.
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Getting back to the original thread topic, I've been wondering ... we have now been made aware that there were possibly, two occasions when Madeleine cried ... one when Mrs Fenn heard her becoming increasingly distressed for an hour and a quarter, and then again, the following night, when the mystery couple went into the apartment to 'soothe' her
How can that be ?
If the tapas group have been honest about their checking regime then barely 10 minutes could ever have passed without one or other of them, on their trips back and fore, being close enough to the McCann apartment to have heard Madeleine crying
You are forgetting one very important point. Unless Madeleines bedroom in 5A was actually being deliberately checked no-one would be likely to hear her in there, even if she were crying. The window was closed, the shutters down ... and most importantly it was on nobodies route to their apartment. At the front, flat 5A was the end of the line.
Everybody had to enter the car park via the drive in. Already they were past Madeleines bedroom as they entered the car park, and about 13 yards away.
To get to their flats, they had to walk that walled pathway, they had to go to the start of it. The start was in the middle of the building. As they walked, they would be looking ahead at the start of the path in the middle of block... and as they walked towards it they would always be walking further away from 5A
That is until they turned into the pathway, but the building was sticking out for the first bit and then they would all go into the open area that held the front doors to their flats and the stairs also. Doubtful if the sound would carry throught curtains, window and shutter to such distant walkers, or around the sticking out bit of building.
This is s bit long winded. I will see if I can find a map.
(http://i.imgur.com/Ofcyqni.jpg)
See the RH red spot against the building? Well Madeleines bedroom is a tadge to the east of that.
Count 4 and 6 1/2 spots along from that first spot. I think that between those is where the open-fronted entrance hall is. This is the space that leads to the stairs and front doors of the other relevant apartments. Peeps will cut the corner and walk the shortest route, so very quickly they are no longer going towards Madeleines bedroom
The most westerly red spot is the middle of the block and where the pathway starts/ends
You can see the drive in. Here the red spots should really run in a straightish line to the end of the walled pathway, cos peeps will walk the shortest route .
The drive in is about 13 yards away from Madeleines bedroom and nobody really gets much closer. Nor would they be likely to look in the direction of 5A
As I said before, only peeps actually checking 5A would hear Madeleine crying, imo
She wasn't crying at 8.30 pm, nor at 9pm, nor at 9.30 pm ... and she was discovered missing at 10pm.
She was checked every half an hour. So was she crying? I think it is unlikely.