Differences In Forensics And Trial Between WHF And Murder Of Jill Dando

[Nicholas]

Also just reading that in the case of Jill Dando;

 “The post-mortem report, the injuries to her head, the markings (on the bullet) indicated a silencer couldn’t have been on the gun.”

I wonder why in one case it was possible to say a silencer wasn't used and in another the firearms 'expert' *Malcolm Fletcher was unable to say one way or another?

Why do you appear to continuely cherry pick?


“JILL DANDO was shot dead by someone using a hollow-point bullet fired from a 9mm handgun fitted with a silencer

“......But it is understood that officers believe the killer almost certainly used a silencer. One witness reported hearing a clicking noise, a sound associated with guns fitted with such devices.

“Police sources said yesterday that a semi-automatic handgun fitted with a silencer and ammunition could be bought illegally for pounds 1,000. Without a silencer the gun - most likely a Browning, Glock or a Tanfoglio - could be purchased for as little as pounds 500.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/dando-shooting-killer-waited-an-hour-to-strike-1090049.html

An idea might be that lawyers have to undertake further qualifications in whatever areas of law they wish to practice in and stop flitting about being a jack of everything and a master of nothing.  Eg lawyers working on cases involving firearms: WHF, Rettendon Murders, Jill Dando, Carl Bridgwater undertake qualifications in ballistics. 

[Caroline]

Spending too much time over there will definitely drive you loo-py!

Another pointer... the wall behind the old fireplace (partly-hidden) on the left in the downstairs Shower room is thick to allow for a chimney flue, whereas there is no such thickening of the left-hand wall in the upstairs Bathroom.

OK Myster, I agree that it's the downstairs shower room - don't go on about it 

[Myster]

Mea culpa! I had always assumed that to be the upstairs, family bathroom.  The shower rooms downstairs in these old farmhouses are, in my experience, more masculine domains with Life Bouy soap to scrub off the day's dirt, rather than perfumed shower gels and body creams.

PS His close relative Des Cartes sends regards

Who's that?  Never 'eard of 'im. 

[Holly Goodhead]

Maybe but it still wouldn't prove the phone call.

In the absence of digital/satellite technology there will never be any proof that a call was or wasn't made.  But the judicial system doesn't work on absolutes.  A jury decides what is more or less likely based on the evidence heard at trial.  As it stands jurors were led to believe:

- There was no tel in NB and June's bedroom
- The phone normally kept in the above bedroom was found in the kitchen with the handset off the cradle
- There was no obvious blood stains to the above phone
- The perp entered NB and June's bedroom and opened fire inflicting the facial gsw's to NB's face rendering him incapable of purposeful speech thereafter
- The above gsw's produced heavy blood loss

If I was a juror and heard that I would think it unlikely NB called JB.  But the physical evidence shows the above is wildly wrong.  The physical evidence shows NB was shot on the landing stairs with the perp already in the main bedroom firing out onto the landing.  This puts a whole different complexion on what jurors heard at trial.

[Holly Goodhead]

I'm afraid you omitted several imos there. 

But it is not really my imo.  All I've done is sew together strands of evidence from the various experts.  Eg how would I know or be able to work out gsw trajectories if Dr Vanezis had not made this info available?  I would have zero idea.  Dr Vanezis' trial testimony re the gsw to NB's shoulder shows it was impossible for the perp to fire at that sort of trajectory unless the perp was in some really bizarre postion eg shooting from the top of a wardrobe or through the loft hatch but we know the stairs provide the answer for the trajectory supported by the blood stains and casings. 

[Holly Goodhead]

Why do you appear to continuely cherry pick?


“JILL DANDO was shot dead by someone using a hollow-point bullet fired from a 9mm handgun fitted with a silencer

“......But it is understood that officers believe the killer almost certainly used a silencer. One witness reported hearing a clicking noise, a sound associated with guns fitted with such devices.

“Police sources said yesterday that a semi-automatic handgun fitted with a silencer and ammunition could be bought illegally for pounds 1,000. Without a silencer the gun - most likely a Browning, Glock or a Tanfoglio - could be purchased for as little as pounds 500.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/dando-shooting-killer-waited-an-hour-to-strike-1090049.html

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9318.msg520266#msg520266

[Nicholas]

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9318.msg520266#msg520266

Why do you appear to continuely cherry pick?

Remind me, what was the conclusion of the silencer evidence in the Bamber case that helped convict him?

[Nicholas]

I know I've posted previously about the fact jurors were taken to Jill Dando's home to view soc which wasn't the case at WHF.  It would have been helpful to jurors to see how easy, difficult or impossible it was for JB to enter WHF and exit leaving the window secured from within. 

Also just reading that in the case of Jill Dando;

 “The post-mortem report, the injuries to her head, the markings (on the bullet) indicated a silencer couldn’t have been on the gun.”

I wonder why in one case it was possible to say a silencer wasn't used and in another the firearms 'expert' *Malcolm Fletcher was unable to say one way or another?

*Told the court his relevant experience included a small amount of experience with an air rifle as a small boy.

Could it be because of the differences in the cases, ie.?

Jill Dando murder - stranger homicide
WHF Murders - parricide

[Caroline]

In the absence of digital/satellite technology there will never be any proof that a call was or wasn't made.  But the judicial system doesn't work on absolutes.  A jury decides what is more or less likely based on the evidence heard at trial.  As it stands jurors were led to believe:

- There was no tel in NB and June's bedroom
- The phone normally kept in the above bedroom was found in the kitchen with the handset off the cradle
- There was no obvious blood stains to the above phone
- The perp entered NB and June's bedroom and opened fire inflicting the facial gsw's to NB's face rendering him incapable of purposeful speech thereafter
- The above gsw's produced heavy blood loss

If I was a juror and heard that I would think it unlikely NB called JB.  But the physical evidence shows the above is wildly wrong.  The physical evidence shows NB was shot on the landing stairs with the perp already in the main bedroom firing out onto the landing.  This puts a whole different complexion on what jurors heard at trial.

Regardless - NB being on the stairs doesn't make the call more likely - it simply means he was running away from 'someone'. 

[Holly Goodhead]

Regardless - NB being on the stairs doesn't make the call more likely - it simply means he was running away from 'someone'.

How do the gsw's NB sustained to his face suggest he was "running away"?

NB on the stairs means it was possible NB made a call before sustaining gsw's which made purposeful speech thereafter impossible and accounts for the lack of any obvious blood on the mouthpiece from those wounds.

 

[Caroline]

How do the gsw's NB sustained to his face suggest he was "running away"?

NB on the stairs means it was possible NB made a call before sustaining gsw's which made purposeful speech thereafter impossible and accounts for the lack of any obvious blood on the mouthpiece from those wounds.

 

Or that he made no call at all!

[Holly Goodhead]

Or that he made no call at all!

That's for a jury to decide based on accurate info.  You appreciate NB did not sustain any of his gsw's in his bedroom.   

[Caroline]

That's for a jury to decide based on accurate info.  You appreciate NB did not sustain any of his gsw's in his bedroom.

I never thought he did but.I don;t think that makes a difference to the phone call claim. Even if he were shot in the bedroom, it could have been after the call so where he was, makes no difference. I am sure members of the jury thought about that

[Holly Goodhead]

I never thought he did but.I don;t think that makes a difference to the phone call claim. Even if he were shot in the bedroom, it could have been after the call so where he was, makes no difference. I am sure members of the jury thought about that

Jurors are only able to make decisions/reach verdicts based on what is adjudicated on at trial. 

Ed Lawson QC for the defence asked MF if anyone was shot upstairs outside NB and June's bedroom to which he replied no.  See attached trial testimony.

The CoA 2002 doc states:

60. Found in or just outside the bedroom were thirteen cartridge cases. Seven would account for the shots into June Bamber, two for the wounds suffered by Sheila Caffell, leaving four cartridge cases that had been fired at Nevill Bamber. Three further cartridge cases were found in the kitchen, with a further case on the stairs leading up from the kitchen. If one accepts that the four shots to the head which would have immobilised and killed Nevill Bamber were fired in the kitchen where his body was recovered,it would follow that he had received the less serious injuries upstairs in the bedroom and was then able to make his way downstairs where he was subsequently killed.

41. Nevill Bamber, who was wearing his pyjamas had been shot eight times. There were two wounds to the right side and two to the top of the head. If not immediately fatal, the combined effect of these four injuries would have been immediate unconsciousness and incapacitation. There was a wound to the left side of the lip and another to the left part of the lower jaw. This injury caused severe fracturing of the jaw, of the teeth in that area and damaged soft tissue in the neck and the larynx. These features of this particular injury and the resultant flow of blood into the mouth meant, in the pathologist's opinion, that Nevill Bamber would not have been able to engage in purposeful talk. There were also gunshot wounds to the left shoulder and a grazing wound above the left elbow.

147. The precise sequence of the killings was unclear. June Bamber was shot whilst still lying in bed but had managed to get up and walk a few steps before she collapsed and died by the main bedroom door. Nevill Bamber was also shot in the bedroom but was able to get downstairs into the kitchen where there was a violent struggle before he was overwhelmed and then shot a number of times in the head. The children had been shot in their beds as they slept.

vii) The appellant's account of the telephone call from his father could be proved to be false for the following reasons:

a) His father was too badly injured to have spoken to anybody;

b) The telephone in the kitchen was not obviously blood stained;

There can be no doubt jurors were led to believe the perp crept into the main bedroom under stealth and opened fire on a sleeping June and NB where NB sustained his not immediately fatal gsw's rendering him incapable of purposeful speech thereafter with these wounds producing heavy blood loss.  This is wrong based on a careful analysis of the physical evidence at soc.   

[Holly Goodhead]

Forgot to add MF's trial testimony!