Author Topic: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?  (Read 110496 times)

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Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #480 on: April 22, 2020, 03:36:40 PM »
If you mean on worldometers, not necessarily.

France 21 April: 2667 new cases and 531 new deaths
If you go to the source document, of the cumulative total of 20,796 deaths, only 12,900 died in hospital.
https://www.gouvernement.fr/info-coronavirus/carte-et-donnees

The FT removed non-hospital deaths for France due to the apples and oranges issue. Their graph now states 12,900 for France as those were the hospital ones.
https://www.ft.com/coronavirus-latest

Belgium appears to have a very high death rate, but that seems to include all settings and even suspected cases.
https://www.info-coronavirus.be/en/news/collection-data/

I'm looking at Spain and Italy, but I'm not sure that I've found all the relevant pages.
Every day at the trlevised briefing there is a graph which shows deaths from covid in hospitals (they are always careful to stress that point), which has Britain behind Spain, Italy, America and I think France or the Netherlands.
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #481 on: April 22, 2020, 03:39:54 PM »
It may just be a blog entry by some random woman but I think she speaks for alot of people (most people I talk to anyway)

“Journalism is missing the mood the country

Twitter is an interesting metaphor for infectious diseases. I write something. It might be seen be some of my followers, but it has to compete with what everyone else is writing so it might be ignored. If someone retweets, it might be seen by any of their followers, but just occasionally a tweet captures the mood and suddenly it spreads and spreads way beyond what I might have expected when I wrote it.
Recently I wrote:

Journalism is missing the mood the country. We don't want blame, we don't want argument as if this were a General Election, we want a contribution to the national effort to get us out of this crisis. We want hope optimism and faith in our country. We need less negativity.

This tweet has been liked and retweeted more than any other tweet I have written. Some people objected. It became clear from reading their responses that this was usually because they were hostile to the Government either because they voted for someone else at the last election or because they voted Remain in 2016. They too were missing the mood of the country.




What strikes me most from my online interactions is that ordinary Brits have gone beyond politics. We understand that we are not fighting a General Election. We are fighting the worst pandemic in the past one hundred years.

Morale does matter. So does national unity and a sense of common purpose. When Boris was sick, and Dominic Raab said he was a fighter, some journalists didn’t get it. They objected that it implied that those who died were weak. It didn’t. Raab was simply expressing hope. He was being positive. If Captain Tom got sick, we would all call him a fighter. We would do so no matter the outcome.

A person or a people who believe they will win in the end is much more likely to do so. This is why morale matters so much to armies. It has on numerous occasions seen a smaller force beat a larger force. Morale can cause miracles not merely in battle but in illness. Being brave, optimistic and full of faith does not guarantee that you get better, but it helps. Thinking your case is hopeless and you are bound to die sometimes guarantees that you do. This is what the country gets that journalists don’t.

I have been impressed by a few journalists in the past weeks, but not many. I think the BBC Horizon team have done an outstanding job in helping us understand the nature of the illness we face. Some economic journalists have done a good job in explaining the economic consequences of the worldwide lockdown. One or two political journalists have given us some help in understanding Government thinking. But journalists for the most part have disgraced themselves.

There are people I usually enjoy reading who frequently make interesting points about society and politics who are simply showing their lack of knowledge today. Too many journalists who think there is only one story to write about skim a few medical journals and then think they are qualified to tell the rest of us what should be done. They go from one extreme to other and pretend to have a knowledge that they don’t.

Twenty-four-hour news programmes are full of relentless negativity. They pick up on one issue such as ventilators go with that for a few days and then obsess about Personal Protective Equipment (PPE). Next we get comparisons between countries. This country has more deaths than that country as if it is some sort of Olympic medal table. Why can’t you get PPE? Because everyone else in the world wants it too. But shouldn’t you have prepared? Would you like to apologise for your failure?

The worst of all is the daily press briefings. We listen to some of the best minds in the country explaining to us what is being done and why only to have a series of ignorant childish questions from journalists trying to score political points and trip up a minister. No wonder most of us switch off when we get to that point.

There has never previously in the whole world been such a lockdown. The only insight from the Sunday Times was that hindsight is a wonderful thing.

The first thing you learn in history is that people make mistakes. Faced with unprecedented situations they make lots of mistakes. When I first started reading about Covid 19 back in January I read everything I could find on the subject because I was planning to make a trip to Central Asia. I told myself I’d be OK and booked my flight. I was lucky that it was cancelled, or I might be stuck there yet. I would have made a terrible mistake otherwise.

I didn’t read a single journalist in January or February who predicted that Britain would be locked down in March. I read lots of journalists who said that Covid 19 would be no worse than seasonal flu and we had nothing to worry about. I didn’t read a single journalist who in mid-January accurately predicted how the virus would spread worldwide nor one who said that we should lockdown immediately.

If we had had the modern journalist profession in 1940, we would have lost the war. They would have complained about the Governments disastrous mistakes at Narvik.  It should have known that the Maginot line wouldn’t work. Journalists would have demanded that Churchill should have been immediately sacked for the defeat at Dunkirk. They would have described our situation as hopeless and would have ridiculed our ability to fight them on the beaches and would have said it was mere arrogance to suppose that our pathetic little country could have a finest hour. After all the Germans do everything so much more efficiently than we do. They would have listed all the mistakes our country had made and called it insight. The British people however would not have listened to them then, just as we don’t read them now. Newspapers are going out of business. They deserve to”.

Effie Deans https://www.effiedeans.com/2020/04/journalism-is-missing-mood-country.html?fbclid=IwAR2MbPkv48UOnWr_dbXppgDtADBL8gWmRVmrQT_GWN6XuNn_qO7QaOoI4Co&m=1
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline faithlilly

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #482 on: April 22, 2020, 03:55:05 PM »
If this is correct, there may have been around 41,000 COVID-related deaths in the UK so far.

https://www.ft.com/content/67e6a4ee-3d05-43bc-ba03-e239799fa6ab

Thank you Carana. I have posted the same information above. I understand that people don’t want to accept such a horrendous death toll but in denying the extent to which this terrible virus has decimated our communities who are we benefitting ? Certainly not the dead and their poor families.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2020, 04:00:11 PM by Faithlilly »
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #483 on: April 22, 2020, 04:23:26 PM »
Thank you Carana. I have posted the same information above. I understand that people don’t want to accept such a horrendous death toll but in denying the extent to which this terrible virus has decimated our communities who are we benefitting ? Certainly not the dead and their poor families.

I actually thought it would be higher and I dont see anyone denying anything. The problem we have is that if the lock down rules are eased the death toll may well soar....thats what concerns me.

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #484 on: April 22, 2020, 05:11:44 PM »
I actually thought it would be higher and I dont see anyone denying anything. The problem we have is that if the lock down rules are eased the death toll may well soar....thats what concerns me.
I don’t see anyone denying anything either.  That was just an emotive, cheap shot for which the author of the comment is famed.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2020, 05:15:30 PM by Vertigo Swirl »
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Carana

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #485 on: April 22, 2020, 05:15:48 PM »
Thank you Carana. I have posted the same information above. I understand that people don’t want to accept such a horrendous death toll but in denying the extent to which this terrible virus has decimated our communities who are we benefitting ? Certainly not the dead and their poor families.

Sorry, I hadn't realised that you'd posted the same article.

I don't think there's a deliberate attempt to hide the figures. More a complex reporting system that makes it difficult to work out.

I can understand that governments (not just in the UK) have been reluctant to invest massively in expensive ventilators, and like a few other countries that I can think of, IMO the UK seems to have hoped it would just somehow stay away. By the time they woke up, they were way behind the curve in both testing and PPE.


Offline Mr Gray

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #486 on: April 22, 2020, 06:03:33 PM »
Sorry, I hadn't realised that you'd posted the same article.

I don't think there's a deliberate attempt to hide the figures. More a complex reporting system that makes it difficult to work out.

I can understand that governments (not just in the UK) have been reluctant to invest massively in expensive ventilators, and like a few other countries that I can think of, IMO the UK seems to have hoped it would just somehow stay away. By the time they woke up, they were way behind the curve in both testing and PPE.

Boris doesnt know what PPE to order.....did the hospital managers tell him what they wanted...if so when...and what did they ask for
« Last Edit: April 22, 2020, 06:09:41 PM by Davel »

Offline faithlilly

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #487 on: April 22, 2020, 06:14:50 PM »
Sorry, I hadn't realised that you'd posted the same article.

I don't think there's a deliberate attempt to hide the figures. More a complex reporting system that makes it difficult to work out.

I can understand that governments (not just in the UK) have been reluctant to invest massively in expensive ventilators, and like a few other countries that I can think of, IMO the UK seems to have hoped it would just somehow stay away. By the time they woke up, they were way behind the curve in both testing and PPE.

Firstly I’d agree with your first point if the FT hadn’t been able to access the figures available and draw conclusions from them. The government has access to the same figures.

Your second point I’d also agree with if the government hadn’t carried out Operation Cygnus in 2016 and been warned that the NHS would struggle to cope in a pandemic such as coronavirus.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/03/28/exercise-cygnus-uncovered-pandemic-warnings-buried-government/
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline faithlilly

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #488 on: April 22, 2020, 06:21:06 PM »
Boris doesnt know what PPE to order.....did the hospital managers tell him what they wanted...if so when...and what did they ask for

Course doh !! He was in hospital....how could he order the PPE !
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #489 on: April 22, 2020, 06:30:50 PM »
Firstly I’d agree with your first point if the FT hadn’t been able to access the figures available and draw conclusions from them. The government has access to the same figures.

Your second point I’d also agree with if the government hadn’t carried out Operation Cygnus in 2016 and been warned that the NHS would struggle to cope in a pandemic such as coronavirus.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/03/28/exercise-cygnus-uncovered-pandemic-warnings-buried-government/

You need to read the article. Its  NHS England who the finger is pointed at...the managers. We than had the avuan flu and ebola scares...both of which came to nothing.

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #490 on: April 22, 2020, 06:38:45 PM »
You need to read the article. Its  NHS England who the finger is pointed at...the managers. We than had the avuan flu and ebola scares...both of which came to nothing.
Whilst undoubtedly there have been government failings the same can certainly also be said for the NHS and PHE but will you ever hear a word of criticism levelled at either of these organisations from those with a political agenda?  Will you b....ry!
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline faithlilly

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #491 on: April 22, 2020, 07:14:16 PM »
You need to read the article. Its  NHS England who the finger is pointed at...the managers. We than had the avuan flu and ebola scares...both of which came to nothing.

I think it’s you who needs to read the article more closely.

‘ Others are more critical. A senior academic directly involved in Cygnus and the current pandemic said: “These exercises are supposed to prepare government for something like this - but it appears they were aware of the problem but didn’t do much about it.

“We’ve been quite surprised at the lack of coherent planning for a pandemic on this scale. It’s basically a lack of attention to what would be needed to prevent a disease like this from overwhelming the system. All the flexibility has been pared away so it’s difficult to react quickly. Nothing is ready to go.”

Reasons for the report not being published are likely to go beyond Whitehall’s paternal view and a desire not to frighten the public. The Telegraph has talked to multiple sources with first hand knowledge of Cygnus and all say the exercise revealed significant caps in the NHS’s “surge capacity”.

These gaps, which included a shortage of ICU beds and PPE, were revealed at a time of austerity. Jeremy Hunt, the then health secretary, and Simon Stevens, chief executive of NHS England, were cutting NHS bed numbers at the time rather than adding capacity. Dame Sally Davies, then chief medical officer, faced similar financial constraints.’
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #492 on: April 22, 2020, 07:27:43 PM »
I think it’s you who needs to read the article more closely.

‘ Others are more critical. A senior academic directly involved in Cygnus and the current pandemic said: “These exercises are supposed to prepare government for something like this - but it appears they were aware of the problem but didn’t do much about it.

“We’ve been quite surprised at the lack of coherent planning for a pandemic on this scale. It’s basically a lack of attention to what would be needed to prevent a disease like this from overwhelming the system. All the flexibility has been pared away so it’s difficult to react quickly. Nothing is ready to go.”

Reasons for the report not being published are likely to go beyond Whitehall’s paternal view and a desire not to frighten the public. The Telegraph has talked to multiple sources with first hand knowledge of Cygnus and all say the exercise revealed significant caps in the NHS’s “surge capacity”.

These gaps, which included a shortage of ICU beds and PPE, were revealed at a time of austerity. Jeremy Hunt, the then health secretary, and Simon Stevens, chief executive of NHS England, were cutting NHS bed numbers at the time rather than adding capacity. Dame Sally Davies, then chief medical officer, faced similar financial constraints.’
But there's no shortage of ICU beds are their.  Did anyone realise that our, standard type of PPE wouldnt be enough.
I doubt they even thought about FFP3 masks and full face visors.  I managed to get hold of a few masks from B and Q in february. They haven't been used in clinical practice before in my experience....we had plenty of the normal ones but this was not a normal flu virus. 

I still say it's NHS England who are at fault... They are the ones who advise the govt

Offline faithlilly

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #493 on: April 22, 2020, 07:31:05 PM »
But there's no shortage of ICU beds are their.  Did anyone realise that our, standard type of PPE wouldnt be enough.
I doubt they even thought about FFP3 masks and full face visors.  I managed to get hold of a few masks from B and Q in february. They haven't been used in clinical practice before in my experience....we had plenty of the normal ones but this was not a normal flu virus. 

I still say it's NHS England who are at fault... They are the ones who advise the govt

Then you can keep on saying it....it won’t, however, be true.
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #494 on: April 22, 2020, 07:33:38 PM »
Then you can keep on saying it....it won’t, however, be true.

I think it's Richard Horton who has called on the NHS England board to resign... I think it is true

Cited by 6
28 Mar 2020 · Richard Horton. Richard ... “ When this is all over, the NHS England board should resign in their entirety.”