UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Other Forums and Organisations => Jeremy Bamber forum => Topic started by: Tim Invictus on February 01, 2017, 12:58:29 PM
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What's up folks! Hope all is well on the right side of all common sense. I thought the cranks over on Blue might have given up the Bamber Ghost by now ... 30 years and they are still trying to free the kiddie executioner! Talk about flogging a dead horse! Hope you are all well and happy and confident in the knowledge that Bamber will never be freed!
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What's up folks! Hope all is well on the right side of all common sense. I thought the cranks over on Blue might have given up the Bamber Ghost by now ... 30 years and they are still trying to free the kiddie executioner! Talk about flogging a dead horse! Hope you are all well and happy and confident in the knowledge that Bamber will never be freed!
Nice to hear from you Tim, hope all is well with you. The Bamberettes ebb and flow like the Osea tides, same old nonsensical arguments by the stalwarts who remain. They never have been able to come up with that crucial piece of evidence, I believe horsey Jackie keeps a suitcase ready though just in case.
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What's up folks! Hope all is well on the right side of all common sense. I thought the cranks over on Blue might have given up the Bamber Ghost by now ... 30 years and they are still trying to free the kiddie executioner! Talk about flogging a dead horse! Hope you are all well and happy and confident in the knowledge that Bamber will never be freed!
Tim Invictus:
There is one essential rule in this case, all those who start from scratch analysing the full body of evidence conclude it is impossible Bamber did this crime.
It is straightforward to prove this, more challenging communicating with those employing your style of analysis. One place to start is bullet trajectories through Neville Bamber, the first four bullets in particular. You will be worth responding to when you say something clever running backwards from that challenge.
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Tim Invictus:
There is one essential rule in this case, all those who start from scratch analysing the full body of evidence conclude it is impossible Bamber did this crime.
It is straightforward to prove this, more challenging communicating with those employing your style of analysis. One place to start is bullet trajectories through Neville Bamber, the first four bullets in particular. You will be worth responding to when you say something clever running backwards from that challenge.
That is pure fiction I'm afraid Samson. Nobody has ever provided a shred of evidence to support Jeremy Bamber stories. Julie Mugford signed his fate with her 30+ page statement and her unshakable trial evidence detailing exactly how he schemed to destroy his adoptive family. Bamber's sarcastic comments to the court just went to underline what a scheming murderous little shit he was.
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Tim Invictus:
There is one essential rule in this case, all those who start from scratch analysing the full body of evidence conclude it is impossible Bamber did this crime.
It is straightforward to prove this, more challenging communicating with those employing your style of analysis. One place to start is bullet trajectories through Neville Bamber, the first four bullets in particular. You will be worth responding to when you say something clever running backwards from that challenge.
Trajectory of the bullets fired into Neville! Ha ha ha now that is a new ridiculousness I haven't heard before ... for any possible relevance to be gained from bullet angles you have to know Neville's exact position when each shot was fired and I am sure even Jeremy cant accurately remember that!
Jeremy very kindly proved beyond any doubt that either Sheila did it or it was definitely him! That was Jeremy's downfall because any sensible person
'who starts from scratch analysing the full body of evidence must conclude it is totally impossible Sheila did this crime'. Ergo Jeremy Bamber is guilty beyond any REASONABLE doubt!
Thankfully many judges and the trial jury weren't seduced by Jeremy's psychopathic charm and saw through the fog to reach the truth!
Bullet trajectories! Now that is funny!
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Nice to hear from you Tim, hope all is well with you. The Bamberettes ebb and flow like the Osea tides, same old nonsensical arguments by the stalwarts who remain. They never have been able to come up with that crucial piece of evidence, I believe horsey Jackie keeps a suitcase ready though just in case.
Hello John ... yep all is well with me thanks mate. I hope the same applies to you and all the old gang. I haven't been on because I didn't need the obsessive stalking by the likes of Mad Jackie and other Bamber fan-nuts! But now I have moved house I will make sure they don't get my new home details nor even the country I live in now! ;)
I see Jeremy is totally confident he will be out this year and will be completely vindicated ... no doubt all his remaining family he didn't murder will be jailed for long stretches for framing the poor lad (old man)! He stated it in his blog so it must be so, right .... or have we heard that once or twice before? Remember the 'storm clouds of justice' that were going to be rolling over the Essex countryside' ... what ever happened to those wispy fluffcumulonimbus? ;)
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Hi Tim, glad to see you back.
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Trajectory of the bullets fired into Neville! Ha ha ha now that is a new ridiculousness I haven't heard before ... for any possible relevance to be gained from bullet angles you have to know Neville's exact position when each shot was fired and I am sure even Jeremy cant accurately remember that!
Jeremy very kindly proved beyond any doubt that either Sheila did it or it was definitely him! That was Jeremy's downfall because any sensible person
'who starts from scratch analysing the full body of evidence must conclude it is totally impossible Sheila did this crime'. Ergo Jeremy Bamber is guilty beyond any REASONABLE doubt!
Thankfully many judges and the trial jury weren't seduced by Jeremy's psychopathic charm and saw through the fog to reach the truth!
Bullet trajectories! Now that is funny!
The wound track of the bullet determines the trajectory.
Sadly at the time of JB's trial Little Britian didn't have the homegrown expertise to deal with a reconstruction. Hardly surprising given the low crime rates involving firearms. The case hinges on the ballstics evidence which was woefully inadequate at JB's trial.
At 8 min in a pathologist in the case of David Bain explains:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5Gt4QmUG5k
"Allows you to reconstruct the direction the barrel was pointing in because that is one of the things you can do in the reconstruction of gunshot wounds unless there is some intervening target. You line up the track of the bullet with the barrel of the gun.
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Trajectory of the bullets fired into Neville! Ha ha ha now that is a new ridiculousness I haven't heard before ... for any possible relevance to be gained from bullet angles you have to know Neville's exact position when each shot was fired and I am sure even Jeremy cant accurately remember that!
Jeremy very kindly proved beyond any doubt that either Sheila did it or it was definitely him! That was Jeremy's downfall because any sensible person
'who starts from scratch analysing the full body of evidence must conclude it is totally impossible Sheila did this crime'. Ergo Jeremy Bamber is guilty beyond any REASONABLE doubt!
Thankfully many judges and the trial jury weren't seduced by Jeremy's psychopathic charm and saw through the fog to reach the truth!
Bullet trajectories! Now that is funny!
You're right. We will never know exactly where Nevill was, what position he was in and how he was moving when he was shot upstairs. And the idea that he would take his eyes off Sheila for a single second if she had picked up a gun and a loaded magazine that were "lying around" is beyond ludicrous.
My Grandad used to "line up the trajectories" every Saturday night when he did his Spot the Ball. Needless to say, he won fook all. 8(8-))
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The wound track of the bullet determines the trajectory.
Sadly at the time of JB's trial Little Britian didn't have the homegrown expertise to deal with a reconstruction. Hardly surprising given the low crime rates involving firearms. The case hinges on the ballstics evidence which was woefully inadequate at JB's trial.
At 8 min in a pathologist in the case of David Bain explains:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5Gt4QmUG5k
"Allows you to reconstruct the direction the barrel was pointing in because that is one of the things you can do in the reconstruction of gunshot wounds unless there is some intervening target. You line up the track of the bullet with the barrel of the gun.
Hello Holly dear ... long time no ski!
Yes of course the wound track of a bullet determines the trajectory ... but only if you know or can determine the position of the victim at the time of the shot! For example a horizontal wound track to the chest could have been fired vertically if the victim was already laying prone on the floor! Obviously blood splatter and/or bleeding patterns might be able to determine the exact position of the victim upon impact, But with the multiple wounds Jeremy inflicted and the brave fight Neville put up, I doubt an exact position for each shot could ever be accurately determined!
What does it matter anyway; how on earth could wound trajectories possibly prove Sheila was the shooter and not Jeremy? (A hypothetical question of course because it was 'Jeremy that dun it'.)
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Hi Tim, glad to see you back.
Hi Eleanor .... thanks! How's life in France? I might be living in France too now ... or maybe not depending upon which of the Blue stalkers is reading this!
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Hi Eleanor .... thanks! How's life in France? I might be living in France too now ... or maybe not depending upon which of the Blue stalkers is reading this!
Life is interesting. And it's very easy to lose yourself in France. But you might know that already, or not. My IP comes up in places I've never even heard of.
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Hello Holly dear ... long time no ski!
Yes of course the wound track of a bullet determines the trajectory ... but only if you know or can determine the position of the victim at the time of the shot! For example a horizontal wound track to the chest could have been fired vertically if the victim was already laying prone on the floor! Obviously blood splatter and/or bleeding patterns might be able to determine the exact position of the victim upon impact, But with the multiple wounds Jeremy inflicted and the brave fight Neville put up, I doubt an exact position for each shot could ever be accurately determined!
What does it matter anyway; how on earth could wound trajectories possibly prove Sheila was the shooter and not Jeremy? (A hypothetical question of course because it was 'Jeremy that dun it'.)
Hello Tim. Well there's always Ski Sunday to reminisce. I was disappointed to see Lyndsey Vonn crash out of the SuperG in Cortina last Sat but I guess she's past her sell by date now - a bit like someone else 8)><(
Gsw trajectory can determine the relative postion of shooter and victim:
http://www.fsijournal.org/article/S0379-0738(17)30002-6/abstract
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28089298
The prosecution case against JB is that he entered the farmhouse under stealth and shot all victims in their beds or bedroom other than SC who sustained gsw's in her parents bedroom.
The four gsw's NB sustained upstairs all had downward trajectories and the only possible perps ie SC or JB were both shorter than NB. The gsw's NB sustained to his lip and jaw went straight through from front to back and the trajectories were circa 20 degrees below the horizontal. The gsw's he sustained to his elbow and shoulder were to his rear and again both had downward trajectories. Please explain how JB could inflict these wounds from within the confines of his parents bedroom. It is an important aspect of the case as it lends support to the theory that NB was downstairs phoning JB and was first shot when he approached the bedroom from the landing stairs.
The trajectories are one aspect of the soc. Other aspects: blood staining or lack of, casings, distance of shots and wound tracks support the theory that SC was in the bedroom shooting June and as NB approached the bedroom from the landing stairs SC was then stood in the doorway in an elevated postion hence the downward trajectories of the gsw's NB sustained to his lip and jaw. NB then turned and when positioned on the winder stairs or main stairs facing down towards the hall SC was behind and inflicted the gsw's to NB's shoulder and elbow/chest.
The above should have formed a vital part of the defence case at trial and 2002 appeal hearing. Sadly not. The pathologist, Dr Vanezis, said he visited WHF but he did not ask where victims were shot or the location of casings. When the so-called ballistics expert, Malcolm Fletcher, was asked at trial about his background unlike his peers he did not mention any professional qualifications, degree etc. Instead he talked about some years experience in the firearms department and a small amount of experience with an airgun as a small boy. Given this background and the woefully inadequate expert testimony at trial is it any wonder we are looking at one of the gravest miscarriages of justice the developed world has ever witnessed?
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Hello Tim. Well there's always Ski Sunday to reminisce. I was disappointed to see Lyndsey Vonn crash out of the SuperG in Cortina last Sat but I guess she's past her sell by date now - a bit like someone else 8)><(
Gsw trajectory can determine the relative postion of shooter and victim:
http://www.fsijournal.org/article/S0379-0738(17)30002-6/abstract
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28089298
The prosecution case against JB is that he entered the farmhouse under stealth and shot all victims in their beds or bedroom other than SC who sustained gsw's in her parents bedroom.
The four gsw's NB sustained upstairs all had downward trajectories and the only possible perps ie SC or JB were both shorter than NB. The gsw's NB sustained to his lip and jaw went straight through from front to back and the trajectories were circa 20 degrees below the horizontal. The gsw's he sustained to his elbow and shoulder were to his rear and again both had downward trajectories. Please explain how JB could inflict these wounds from within the confines of his parents bedroom. It is an important aspect of the case as it lends support to the theory that NB was downstairs phoning JB and was first shot when he approached the bedroom from the landing stairs.
The trajectories are one aspect of the soc. Other aspects: blood staining or lack of, casings, distance of shots and wound tracks support the theory that SC was in the bedroom shooting June and as NB approached the bedroom from the landing stairs SC was then stood in the doorway in an elevated postion hence the downward trajectories of the gsw's NB sustained to his lip and jaw. NB then turned and when positioned on the winder stairs or main stairs facing down towards the hall SC was behind and inflicted the gsw's to NB's shoulder and elbow/chest.
The above should have formed a vital part of the defence case at trial and 2002 appeal hearing. Sadly not. The pathologist, Dr Vanezis, said he visited WHF but he did not ask where victims were shot or the location of casings. When the so-called ballistics expert, Malcolm Fletcher, was asked at trial about his background unlike his peers he did not mention any professional qualifications, degree etc. Instead he talked about some years experience in the firearms department and a small amount of experience with an airgun as a small boy. Given this background and the woefully inadequate expert testimony at trial is it any wonder we are looking at one of the gravest miscarriages of justice the developed world has ever witnessed?
I am more a Lara Gut and Anna Fenninger (Veith) fan than Lyndsey Vonn but I am glad she didn't hurt herself again in the nets of Cortina. The women's speed events are certainly far more interesting than the men's since Didier retried! I am going again at Easter if you still fancy that race above Meribel ... or was that just all talk! ;)
I do agree if JB were innocent after all, it we would indeed be "looking at one of the gravest miscarriages of justice the developed world has ever witnessed". Thankfully there isn't a snowball's chance in hell that he is actually innocent and a tailored amateur analysis of Neville's gsw's, made from a viewpoint of 'how can I fit this speculation to support Jeremy', doesn't alter the overwhelming proof of Jeremy's guilt in the slightest.
Unfortunately Jeremy's diabolical plan to place the blame on Sheila was prima facially so convincing that the crime scene wasn't properly forensically analysed. I am sure if it had been there would be even fewer desperate straws for the Bamberettes to grasp at! Have you read the CCRC's comments many years ago stating that the more they reinvestigate this case, the more utterly convinced they are that the original trial verdict was absolutely correct?
I admire your stubbornness but I am sure that later rather than sooner you too will have come to recognise the killer is exactly where he belongs; Monster Mansion! I wonder if Jem has got one of Huntley or Harry Shipman's old cells!
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I am more a Lara Gut and Anna Fenninger (Veith) fan than Lyndsey Vonn but I am glad she didn't hurt herself again in the nets of Cortina. The women's speed events are certainly far more interesting than the men's since Didier retried! I am going again at Easter if you still fancy that race above Meribel ... or was that just all talk! ;)
I do agree if JB were innocent after all, it we would indeed be "looking at one of the gravest miscarriages of justice the developed world has ever witnessed". Thankfully there isn't a snowball's chance in hell that he is actually innocent and a tailored amateur analysis of Neville's gsw's, made from a viewpoint of 'how can I fit this speculation to support Jeremy', doesn't alter the overwhelming proof of Jeremy's guilt in the slightest.
Unfortunately Jeremy's diabolical plan to place the blame on Sheila was prima facially so convincing that the crime scene wasn't properly forensically analysed. I am sure if it had been there would be even fewer desperate straws for the Bamberettes to grasp at! Have you read the CCRC's comments many years ago stating that the more they reinvestigate this case, the more utterly convinced they are that the original trial verdict was absolutely correct?
I admire your stubbornness but I am sure that later rather than sooner you too will have come to recognise the killer is exactly where he belongs; Monster Mansion! I wonder if Jem has got one of Huntley or Harry Shipman's old cells!
Yes pro men on skis don't look as graceful or technically competent as pro women although I am sure they must possess the latter in at least equal abundance.
I'll be away at Easter. I'm on a long in the planning extended trip down under and hope to get some skiing in when visiting Queenstown NZ where my cousin emigrated to.
I can understand why you and most others believe JB's conviction is sound. It happens all the time in high profile and long-running MoJ's. If it didn't we wouldn't have them as the public, media and judiciary would all be up in arms and singing from the same hymn sheet. I've looked carefully at MoJ's: Birmingham 6, Guildford Four, Bridgewater Four, Stefan Kiszko, Sally Clark, Stephen Downing, Sean Hodgson, Sam Hallam etc, etc and they all follow similar patterns. Protestations of innocence. Back and forth to the appeal courts with the judges resolute that the convictions are safe but years later the convictions are quashed. Often the new evidence presented goes way beyond making the conviction unsafe, it actually proves beyond any shadow of doubt that the appellant is in fact entirely innocent. What level of public support do you think these cases received at the time?
What do you think the police could have done differently which would have resulted in JB being interviewed under caution sooner and/or charged?
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Yes pro men on skis don't look as graceful or technically competent as pro women although I am sure they must possess the latter in at least equal abundance.
I'll be away at Easter. I'm on a long in the planning extended trip down under and hope to get some skiing in when visiting Queenstown NZ where my cousin emigrated to.
I can understand why you and most others believe JB's conviction is sound. It happens all the time in high profile and long-running MoJ's. If it didn't we wouldn't have them as the public, media and judiciary would all be up in arms and singing from the same hymn sheet. I've looked carefully at MoJ's: Birmingham 6, Guildford Four, Bridgewater Four, Stefan Kiszko, Sally Clark, Stephen Downing, Sean Hodgson, Sam Hallam etc, etc and they all follow similar patterns. Protestations of innocence. Back and forth to the appeal courts with the judges resolute that the convictions are safe but years later the convictions are quashed. Often the new evidence presented goes way beyond making the conviction unsafe, it actually proves beyond any shadow of doubt that the appellant is in fact entirely innocent. What level of public support do you think these cases received at the time?
What do you think the police could have done differently which would have resulted in JB being interviewed under caution sooner and/or charged?
I am off to NZ too soon! Going for the last two matches of The Lions tour although I cant see it being better than the last one in Sydney. Cant see the Lions beating the All Blacks at home!
What could the Police have done differently? Well not swallowed Jeremy's story hook line and sinker from the start. The mere fact the police overtook Jeremy driving to WHF from much further away should have been suspicious! They should have found the silencer themselves. They should not have allowed hordes of officers trample the scene. They should never have given Jeremy permission to burn as much evidence as he could. They should have listened to Stan Jones who that very morning had sniffed out Jeremy as a 'wrong un' ... laughing with Julie when Stan heard it from next door. The crime scene should have been sealed until they were certain of the perpetrator.
Jeremy came so close to succeeding in getting away with one of the worst crimes in history. If he hadn't been so arrogant, smug and cavalier. If he hadn't proved beyond doubt that it was either him or Sheila. If he had buried the silencer on his bike ride home. If he had kept Julie sweet.
Holly hun I vexes me you cant see his guilt! Just imagine you had lost your entire family murdered .... nay executed. Can you imagine being at the family bank and solicitors that very day like Jeremy was; trying to get his bloody hands on his new fortune as quickly as possible? He had party night after party night, sloshing champers and goosing waitresses. His arrest returning from the playboys playground of St. Tropez was his second holiday within a month of the murders! He even rented out a yacht club for a huge bash. After he blew all the ready cash he got an auction house in to sell off everything he could turn to cash and tried to sell porn photos of poor Sheila to The Sun! He let his Kiwi boyfriend swan around in Neville's car and let him have free petrol to do so on the family account!
He dyed his hair blacker and wore dark eye liner for the funeral and his own family saw him laughing his head off after the cameras had shut off! Then he went home to watch himself on two DVR machines .... after a huge booze up of course in a village restaurant!
Even when formally questioned for murdering 5 members of his own family, Jeremy was flossing his teeth with strands from his Aran sweater and sarcastically singing answers to very serious questions! Treating officers with absolute contempt! Just as he did in court when telling the prosecuting barrister "well that is for you to prove" when accused of the murders.
Come on Holly! Never mind the mountain of physical evidence that Sheila couldn't have done it; do you really think a, by all accounts, dotting mother executed her adored twin boys in their sleep with their thumbs in their mouths? Sheila who was seen by neighbours skipping down the lane with her twins that very day. Waif like Sheila could never have overpowered her 6ft 4" farmer father but, as her doctor said, she adored him and would never have hurt him anyway!
Every single one of his remaining un-murdered family has no doubt about his guilt. His girlfriend testified against him ... most convincingly under heavy cross examination by all accounts. Even his granny disowned him!
We wont even go into Sheila's unbruised body, clean feet, clean hands, unchipped manicured nails, hatred of guns and renowned clumsiness which made people question her ability to hit a slice of toast with a pan of baked beans.
Or June's bicycle being at Jeremy's house ... he always drove everywhere and very fast by all reports; except that night!
I really wanna cyber shake you by the shoulders! There is no possible doubt on God's green earth he is guilty as sin. As the judge said 'evil beyond belief'.
(Feck me did I just write all that! That has reacquainted me with the case! Now I remember why I have no doubts what so ever)
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Nice to see you on here, Tim.
Its been too long since you last posted. Hope you plan on sticking around for a while.
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I am off to NZ too soon! Going for the last two matches of The Lions tour although I cant see it being better than the last one in Sydney. Cant see the Lions beating the All Blacks at home!
What could the Police have done differently? Well not swallowed Jeremy's story hook line and sinker from the start. The mere fact the police overtook Jeremy driving to WHF from much further away should have been suspicious! They should have found the silencer themselves. They should not have allowed hordes of officers trample the scene. They should never have given Jeremy permission to burn as much evidence as he could. They should have listened to Stan Jones who that very morning had sniffed out Jeremy as a 'wrong un' ... laughing with Julie when Stan heard it from next door. The crime scene should have been sealed until they were certain of the perpetrator.
Jeremy came so close to succeeding in getting away with one of the worst crimes in history. If he hadn't been so arrogant, smug and cavalier. If he hadn't proved beyond doubt that it was either him or Sheila. If he had buried the silencer on his bike ride home. If he had kept Julie sweet.
Holly hun I vexes me you cant see his guilt! Just imagine you had lost your entire family murdered .... nay executed. Can you imagine being at the family bank and solicitors that very day like Jeremy was; trying to get his bloody hands on his new fortune as quickly as possible? He had party night after party night, sloshing champers and goosing waitresses. His arrest returning from the playboys playground of St. Tropez was his second holiday within a month of the murders! He even rented out a yacht club for a huge bash. After he blew all the ready cash he got an auction house in to sell off everything he could turn to cash and tried to sell porn photos of poor Sheila to The Sun! He let his Kiwi boyfriend swan around in Neville's car and let him have free petrol to do so on the family account!
He dyed his hair blacker and wore dark eye liner for the funeral and his own family saw him laughing his head off after the cameras had shut off! Then he went home to watch himself on two DVR machines .... after a huge booze up of course in a village restaurant!
Even when formally questioned for murdering 5 members of his own family, Jeremy was flossing his teeth with strands from his Aran sweater and sarcastically singing answers to very serious questions! Treating officers with absolute contempt! Just as he did in court when telling the prosecuting barrister "well that is for you to prove" when accused of the murders.
Come on Holly! Never mind the mountain of physical evidence that Sheila couldn't have done it; do you really think a, by all accounts, dotting mother executed her adored twin boys in their sleep with their thumbs in their mouths? Sheila who was seen by neighbours skipping down the lane with her twins that very day. Waif like Sheila could never have overpowered her 6ft 4" farmer father but, as her doctor said, she adored him and would never have hurt him anyway!
Every single one of his remaining un-murdered family has no doubt about his guilt. His girlfriend testified against him ... most convincingly under heavy cross examination by all accounts. Even his granny disowned him!
We wont even go into Sheila's unbruised body, clean feet, clean hands, unchipped manicured nails, hatred of guns and renowned clumsiness which made people question her ability to hit a slice of toast with a pan of baked beans.
Or June's bicycle being at Jeremy's house ... he always drove everywhere and very fast by all reports; except that night!
I really wanna cyber shake you by the shoulders! There is no possible doubt on God's green earth he is guilty as sin. As the judge said 'evil beyond belief'.
(Feck me did I just write all that! That has reacquainted me with the case! Now I remember why I have no doubts what so ever)
Our trips might overlap so I will PM you my mobile. It depends how long we spend in Oz.
If you want to see NZ get thrashed by England I think you might need to look at the ladies. Last game 25 - 20 so not too far off. I really got into 7's during the Olympics.
I think its a myth the soc wasn't preserved. As far as I can see everything was recorded and preserved as it should have been? DS Jones initiated the burning not JB. Afaik this was restricted to the twins beds and bedding and offered nothing by way of evidence. Its disappointing the police didn't seize the silencer before they handed the keys over late afternoon on 9th Aug. Anthony Pargeter phoned EP on 8th Aug and voiced his concerns over the silencer ie that he had recently seen it attached. On morning of 9th Aug relatives visited EP and again raised the silencer. On 8th Aug the police arranged for JB to make a further statement covering the silencer and I ask myself why EP didn't check this out before handing the keys over?
I don't place much weight on lay prosecution witnesses and certainly not JB's behaviour etc pre and post murders.
SC's state is imo entirely consistent with her potentially being the perp.
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Tim Invictus:
There is one essential rule in this case, all those who start from scratch analysing the full body of evidence conclude it is impossible Bamber did this crime.
It is straightforward to prove this, more challenging communicating with those employing your style of analysis. One place to start is bullet trajectories through Neville Bamber, the first four bullets in particular. You will be worth responding to when you say something clever running backwards from that challenge.
I did the opposite. You keep talking about trajectories as though that word will add weight to your argument, it doesn't. We're still waiting for you to say 'something clever'.
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I did the opposite. You keep talking about trajectories as though that word will add weight to your argument, it doesn't. We're still waiting for you to say 'something clever'.
Hi Caroline ... Hope you're well!
I think you're the only person I know who went from Bamber guilty to innocent. I went from guilty to 99.99% guilty beyond any reasonable doubt! I echo the CCRC reviewers who took the unusual step of stating that the more they investigate the case, the more convinced they are that the trial verdict remains sound.
And as for Samson; everything he says is "something clever" in his narrow little mind!
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I did the opposite. You keep talking about trajectories as though that word will add weight to your argument, it doesn't. We're still waiting for you to say 'something clever'.
Something tells me, we're gonna have a f***ing long wait!
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Something tells me, we're gonna have a f***ing long wait!
I like Holly's new thread.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8016.0
I have never seen a point raised that defies refutation, I expect to see some brave attempts there. I will certainly address all reasons given, as contrary to wht is suggested, I have studied the case sufficiently to be 100% certain Jeremy Bamber did not do this crime.
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Something tells me, we're gonna have a f***ing long wait!
Yep! We're sill waiting! 8((()*/
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I like Holly's new thread.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8016.0
I have never seen a point raised that defies refutation, I expect to see some brave attempts there. I will certainly address all reasons given, as contrary to wht is suggested, I have studied the case sufficiently to be 100% certain Jeremy Bamber did not do this crime.
Such as?
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I like Holly's new thread.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8016.0
I have never seen a point raised that defies refutation, I expect to see some brave attempts there. I will certainly address all reasons given, as contrary to wht is suggested, I have studied the case sufficiently to be 100% certain Jeremy Bamber did not do this crime.
You have seen lots of points raised to refute every single one of your, you just choose to ignore them.
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Can I have a go at guessing who swaghawk is on blue? Is he the bloke in Mike's avatar-thingy? &%+((£
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Can I have a go at guessing who swaghawk is on blue? Is he the bloke in Mike's avatar-thingy? &%+((£
Probably 8@??)( @)(++(*
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Can I have a go at guessing who swaghawk is on blue? Is he the bloke in Mike's avatar-thingy? &%+((£
"The Great Pretender"? @)(++(*
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"The Great Pretender"? @)(++(*
Adrift in a world of his own... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyM8NVl4yBY&spfreload=10 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyM8NVl4yBY&spfreload=10)
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https://www.change.org/p/rt-hon-amber-rudd-mp-home-secretary-essex-police-release-all-documents-withheld-under-pii-to-jeremy-bamber-s-legal-defence?recruiter=21622574&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=share_twitter_responsive
Essex Police: Release All Documents Withheld under Public Interest Immunity (PII) to Jeremy Bamber’s Legal Defence Team with Immediate Effect.
Don't know the in's and outs of this case, but I'm sure his supporters will be interested in this news.
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https://www.change.org/p/rt-hon-amber-rudd-mp-home-secretary-essex-police-release-all-documents-withheld-under-pii-to-jeremy-bamber-s-legal-defence?recruiter=21622574&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=share_twitter_responsive (https://www.change.org/p/rt-hon-amber-rudd-mp-home-secretary-essex-police-release-all-documents-withheld-under-pii-to-jeremy-bamber-s-legal-defence?recruiter=21622574&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=share_twitter_responsive)
Don't know the in's and outs of this case, but I'm sure his supporters will be interested in this news.
They already know, because the CT created that web page at change.org.
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Hi everyone!
I see many of you are still here - and JUST the same! 8)--))
Hope you´re all well.
I haven´t changed my stance on the Bamber case. Not sure either way - and not really interested in discussing it, been there, done that! A million times.
Just nice to see yas, that´s all!
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Hi everyone!
I see many of you are still here - and JUST the same! 8)--))
Hope you´re all well.
I haven´t changed my stance on the Bamber case. Not sure either way - and not really interested in discussing it, been there, done that! A million times.
Just nice to see yas, that´s all!
Hello abs... yup, just the same belief that the police and jury got it spot on. Think you should have made your mind up by now... Justice Drake won't wait forever 'till you decide.
But I do agree that cartooning is infinitely preferable to wasting hours trying to convince the deluded.
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They already know, because the CT created that web page at change.org.
Oopsie... sorry... I had just come across it..... ?{)(**
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Hi everyone!
I see many of you are still here - and JUST the same! 8)--))
Hope you´re all well.
I haven´t changed my stance on the Bamber case. Not sure either way - and not really interested in discussing it, been there, done that! A million times.
Just nice to see yas, that´s all!
Nice to see ya too! You'll be back for the 'breaking news' when it breaks £5%4%
&8#£% for now.
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Hi everyone!
I see many of you are still here - and JUST the same! 8)--))
Hope you´re all well.
I haven´t changed my stance on the Bamber case. Not sure either way - and not really interested in discussing it, been there, done that! A million times.
Just nice to see yas, that´s all!
Hallo Sugarplum!! Yes, same old same old!
I've thought about you recently because I've been to see Sofie Hagen a couple of times. I love her! She's like you, sweet and funny with good hair. And SO rude!!
8((()*/
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Why do you lot still debate the JB case. It seems to me that this is a back slapping forum, and not willing to consider
any other possibilities. You have all made your minds up, so why not move on? You have convinced yourselfs of guilt, and are in no position to debate. Your hero Adam posts on the blue with so long winded posts that it makes him look stupid.
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Why do you lot still debate the JB case. It seems to me that this is a back slapping forum, and not willing to consider
any other possibilities. You have all made your minds up, so why not move on? You have convinced yourselfs of guilt, and are in no position to debate. Your hero Adam posts on the blue with so long winded posts that it makes him look stupid.
Hi Buddy. I disagree with your comments. All views are welcome - all we ask is that basic forum rules are followed as set out on the home page:
* Posters are asked to keep to thread topics where possible
* Libellous or defamatory material will be removed on sight
* Abuse will not be tolerated. Break the rules expect a ban!
Adam is a valued member and we appreciate his posts which I personally find thought provoking!
Some regular posters are in the innocent camp: David1819, Samson and myself.
You are welcome to post on existing threads and/or create new ones.
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Adam started off with 20 pieces of forensic evidence this has risen to over 200 pieces.
The ONLY piece of forensic evidence is the silencer. This evidence was collected by the family with a grey
hair attached. The grey hair was supposed a inch long. It is common knowledge that Neville had long hair.
The blood on the silencer was scraped off by DB because he was curious?
Before the silencer was handed to the police it was handled by DB, AE, PE, RWB, and Jones, who put it in a kitchen
roll holder, hardly the place for evidence.
Now according to AE, and DB witness statements they were the only ones who searched the cupboard, but mentions that cook also attended. Neither mentioned RWB, but all of a sudden he is morphed there.
That piece should NEVER have been accepted as evidence bringing the forensic evidence to zero.
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Why do you lot still debate the JB case. It seems to me that this is a back slapping forum, and not willing to consider
any other possibilities. You have all made your minds up, so why not move on? You have convinced yourselfs of guilt, and are in no position to debate. Your hero Adam posts on the blue with so long winded posts that it makes him look stupid.
Buddy behave! You know all aspects of the case have been debated ad infinitum and recycled by Tesco and others on a regular basis. But to say we are 'not willing to consider any other possibilities' is insulting to my intelligence for one. Show me one iota of credible evidence that Sheila could possibly have done it and I will gladly admit I was wrong. Something better than Yank 'experts' shooting dead pigs though please!
I looked at 9.11 closely just to see what the conspiracy nutcases were dreaming up without a thought of them possibly being credible. But when I saw there were literally 1000's of architects, engineers and pilots explaining why the public story defies the laws of physics and was therefore impossible, I too became convinced it was beyond doubt an inside job.
I never expected that to happen but it did and I had to accept it. I am quite willing be watch the sun rise in the west and admit Bamber is innocent after all but that would require something incredible to explain away the fact that Sheila could not have committed those murders.
In my opinion it is the Bamberettes who refuse to accept the obvious. Would you be willing to ever change your mind? I highly doubt that or you would have done so already.
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Why do you lot still debate the JB case. It seems to me that this is a back slapping forum, and not willing to consider
any other possibilities. You have all made your minds up, so why not move on? You have convinced yourselfs of guilt, and are in no position to debate. Your hero Adam posts on the blue with so long winded posts that it makes him look stupid.
Hey, buddy.
If you get the chance to read Holly's posts on here, you'll see that she has done more research, and talks more sense than anyone on blue. What doesn't happen on here are the endless cheap, derogatory,shitty insults aimed at June and Sheila that ngb allows and enables a poster called "lookout" to spew out, day after day, to justify her lonely, spiteful, futile existence.
Hope you are well, love to the dogs and chickens. xx
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Hey, buddy.
If you get the chance to read Holly's posts on here, you'll see that she has done more research, and talks more sense than anyone on blue. What doesn't happen on here are the endless cheap, derogatory,shitty insults aimed at June and Sheila that ngb allows and enables a poster called "lookout" to spew out, day after day, to justify her lonely, spiteful, futile existence.
Hope you are well, love to the dogs and chickens. xx
And Bamber's prints might have been found on the bible because he "threatened Crispy" with it.
Really? Seriously? When exactly would Bamber have smacked Crispy with a bible in his parents' bedroom, unless it was on the night that he killed everyone?
And you wonder why Bamber's still playing hunt the carbolic with Mick Philpott?
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Adam started off with 20 pieces of forensic evidence this has risen to over 200 pieces.
The ONLY piece of forensic evidence is the silencer. This evidence was collected by the family with a grey
hair attached. The grey hair was supposed a inch long. It is common knowledge that Neville had long hair.
The blood on the silencer was scraped off by DB because he was curious?
Before the silencer was handed to the police it was handled by DB, AE, PE, RWB, and Jones, who put it in a kitchen
roll holder, hardly the place for evidence.
Now according to AE, and DB witness statements they were the only ones who searched the cupboard, but mentions that cook also attended. Neither mentioned RWB, but all of a sudden he is morphed there.
That piece should NEVER have been accepted as evidence bringing the forensic evidence to zero.
I agree with all you say about the silencer Buddy. It should have been undermined by JB's lawyers at trial to the point jurors dismissed it. Instead Geoffrey Rivlin made a complete pigs ear out of it.
The 2002 appeal sets out the prosecution case against JB:
151. The prosecution relied upon the following areas of evidence:
i) The appellant's expressed dislike of his family;
ii) His speaking of his plans to kill his family and thereafter his confessions to his girlfriend, Julie Mugford;
iii) The finding of his mother's bicycle at Goldhanger;
iv) The appellant's admitted ability to effect covert entry into and exit from the farmhouse and the finding of the hacksaw blade outside the bathroom window. His claim to have entered the house in that way after the first arrest was an attempt to explain these findings;
v) Because on the facts of the case it could only have been the appellant or Sheila Caffell who carried out the killings, the factors below proved they were not the responsibility of the appellant's sister:
a) Although seriously mentally ill, there had been no indication of any deterioration in her mental health in the days before the killings. Neither had she expressed any recent suicidal thoughts and the expert evidence was that she would not have harmed her children or her father;
b) Save for the appellant nobody had seen her use a gun and she had no interest in them. Sheila Caffell also had very poor co-ordination and would not have been capable of loading and operating the rifle nor would she have had the required knowledge to do so;
c) She would not have been able physically to have overcome her father (who was fit, strong and 6' 4" tall) during the struggle which undoubtedly took place before his death in the kitchen;
d) Her hands and feet were clean. They were not blood stained and neither was there any sugar upon them;
e) Hand swabs from her body did not reveal the levels of lead to be expected in somebody who must have re-loaded the magazine of the gun on at least two occasions; and
f) Her clothing was relatively clean and she was not injured in the way that might be expected of somebody involved in a struggle. Her long fingernails were still intact and undamaged.
vi) The sound moderator had on any view been attached to the rifle during the fight with Nevill Bamber in the kitchen. But if Sheila Caffell had committed suicide it must have been removed before she shot herself. The following aspects of the evidence established it was still in place on the gun when the appellant's sister was murdered:
a) The blood grouping analysis proved (on the particular facts of the case) that Sheila Caffell's blood was inside the moderator; and
b) Had the appellant's sister murdered the other members of her family with the moderator attached to the gun and then discovered she could not reach the trigger to kill herself, the moderator would have been found next to her body. There would have been no reason for her to have removed it and returned it to the gun cupboard before going back upstairs to commit suicide in her parents' room.
vii) The appellant's account of the telephone call from his father could be proved to be false for the following reasons:
a) His father was too badly injured to have spoken to anybody;
b) The telephone in the kitchen was not obviously blood stained;
c) As a matter of common sense, Nevill Bamber would have called the police before the appellant;
d) Had the appellant really received such a call, he would have immediately made a 999 call, alerted the farm workers who lived close to the farmhouse and then driven at speed to his parents home; and
e) Instead he had spoken to Julie Mugford before calling the police. When he subsequently contacted the Police, it was not by way of the emergency system.
viii) He stood to inherit considerable sums of money.
That's 21 'pieces of evidence' by my reckoning all of which were easy to overcome if JB had a half decent defence.
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Hey, buddy.
If you get the chance to read Holly's posts on here, you'll see that she has done more research, and talks more sense than anyone on blue. What doesn't happen on here are the endless cheap, derogatory,shitty insults aimed at June and Sheila that ngb allows and enables a poster called "lookout" to spew out, day after day, to justify her lonely, spiteful, futile existence.
Hope you are well, love to the dogs and chickens. xx
Cheers 8((()*/
Was on the normal daily return walk from Waitrose yesterday passing a field and noticed one of two horses normally on 4 legs collapsed on the ground. I went over to take a closer look and thought it was deaded as I couldn't see any movement. Called into the local pub to try and find out who owned it - noone knew - felt obliged to have a beer or two! Went back to the field horse still in situ. Walked down to some nearby allotments to see if anyone knew anything about it and it transpires the horse often takes to the ground to sleep. I walk/run past it most days and it was the first time I've seen it on the ground. Googled it when I got home and apparently horses only need 2/3 hours sleep every 24 hours and that is often spread over short bursts and they can sleep standing? Probably explains why I thought it was out of the ordinary. I just thought horses cosied up at night in stables and fall asleep for some 7 hours or so much the same way as humans do. It looked like this which to my mind looks dead especially when situated on the edge of a field about midday.
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And Bamber's prints might have been found on the bible because he "threatened Crispy" with it.
Really? Seriously? When exactly would Bamber have smacked Crispy with a bible in his parents' bedroom, unless it was on the night that he killed everyone?
And you wonder why Bamber's still playing hunt the carbolic with Mick Philpott?
Only identifiable fingerprints on the bible belonged to June:
52. The Bible found by Sheila Caffell's body, belonged to her mother and was normally kept in a cupboard to the right of her bed. It was examined for fingerprints. Many belonged to June Bamber and there were a small number of insufficient detail for comparison, save for one which appeared to have been made by a small child.
This is one of many reasons I say JB's defence lawyers were grossly incompetent and negligent. Terzeon instructed an expert in blood serology to visit the lab and examine all blood stained exhibits. The expert, Dr Lincoln, sent a report to Terzeon which you can read from here pages 12 - 17:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=276.msg4584#msg4584
As everyone can see Dr Lincoln examines all blood stained exhibits EXCEPT the BIBLE! This is simply unforgivable and shows a complete lack of care and attention. No excuses...benefit of hindsight blah, blah. At the 2002 appeal hearing Terzeon states he asked about the open pages of the bible when he viewed the original photos on 7th July 1986:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=569.0;attach=1857
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=569.0;attach=1859
Dr Lincoln's report above is dated 19th September 1986 so it is clear:
- Terzeon observed blood stained images of the bible in SoC photos on 7th July 1986.
- Terzeon read Dr Lincoln's report dated 19th September 1986 analysing each blood stained exhibit EXCEPT the BIBLE!
Had Terzeon pursued the bible it may well have alerted the defence to the fact that JB was being set up. It would have called into question JM's claims MM/JB 'staged' the bible.
All the evidence supports June holding the bible as she walked around the bed and dropped it in the vicinity it was found:
- SC's palms/fingers were free of blood stains
- June's palms/fingers were blood stained
- None of SC's fingerprints were found on bible
- June's fingerprints were on bible
- Religion loomed large in June's life as discussed with Dr Ferguson
- The bible belonged to June
- There's no evidence SC was religious to the point she would read a bible and/or seek one out in a crisis. Dr Ferguson does not refer to SC discussing religion.
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David posted on blue tonight -
"I am not a desperate lonely housewife ;D
Serious question for you David - is this how Bamber refers to his female supporters or is this your perception?
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Surely everyone knows ear lobes barely bleed due to the limited blood supply? (no big blood vessels- only small capillaries)
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According to research believing in conspiracy theories makes people feel special
http://uk.businessinsider.com/believing-conspiracy-theories-makes-people-feel-special-2017-9
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Yes pro men on skis don't look as graceful or technically competent as pro women although I am sure they must possess the latter in at least equal abundance.
I'll be away at Easter. I'm on a long in the planning extended trip down under and hope to get some skiing in when visiting Queenstown NZ where my cousin emigrated to.
I can understand why you and most others believe JB's conviction is sound. It happens all the time in high profile and long-running MoJ's. If it didn't we wouldn't have them as the public, media and judiciary would all be up in arms and singing from the same hymn sheet. I've looked carefully at MoJ's: Birmingham 6, Guildford Four, Bridgewater Four, Stefan Kiszko, Sally Clark, Stephen Downing, Sean Hodgson, Sam Hallam etc, etc and they all follow similar patterns. Protestations of innocence. Back and forth to the appeal courts with the judges resolute that the convictions are safe but years later the convictions are quashed. Often the new evidence presented goes way beyond making the conviction unsafe, it actually proves beyond any shadow of doubt that the appellant is in fact entirely innocent. What level of public support do you think these cases received at the time?
What do you think the police could have done differently which would have resulted in JB being interviewed under caution sooner and/or charged?
“Hale saw the Court of Appeal verdict as a personal victory. He wrote a book about the campaign and co-operated with a BBC1 drama, in which he was played by Stephen Tompkinson. But police files show that Hale falsely portrayed Downing as an artless innocent who was wrongly accused while the guilty parties got away scot free.
The files demonstrate that he suppressed evidence suggesting that Downing was indeed the likely killer of Sewell, and fabricated “facts” to implicate entirely innocent people.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/editor-invented-facts-to-clear-man-in-bakewell-tart-killing-fxb673cdpbb