Strange Witness Statements

[Brietta]

I was thinking of scrutiny by armchair detectives. Are all these records freely available ?

Ask me nothing about phones or antennae ... my phone is one generation removed from the bricks of yore.

Shining has carried out a lot of research and has collaborated with Heri on the subject.  I suggest you refer to both these sources which have published more accurate information than any 'armchair detectives' could have been expected to collate.

[pathfinder73]

It may seem unusual to someone who is used to having a mobile - but for people like me - I wouldn't know the difference.    Basically - all I want my phone for is to make calls and receive calls if there's no landline to use.      I have no understanding at all about anything else in the phone.      It took me ages just to find out how to delete the messages - because there were no grandchildren around at the time for me to hand it to and say 'can you sort this out' - which is what I would normally do if I had prob.


   

It's like going in and erasing your internet browsing history before police getting hold of your pc.

[ShiningInLuz]

It's like going in and erasing your internet browsing history before police getting hold of your pc.

Unless you know the phone types of the McCanns and the operational characteristics of such, little can be gleaned from 'missing' anything on the phones.

I delete my Internet history at various times for various purposes, and I haven't broken any laws.  None of the deletions have anything suspicious behind them.

The records the PJ obtained do not appear, to me, to be suspicious.  In brief, the Tapas 9 made limited contact before the disappearance, and lots afterwards.

I have been looking at the 74,104 records from a different point of view.  The PJ found them difficult to analyse then.  Andy Redwood is on record that OG has also found them difficult to analyse, particularly PAYG.  I have been in touch with OG re methods of cracking this issue.  To date, I have got the standard automated response and nothing more.

From memory, I sent the info to SY on 13 Dec 2015, along with a message saying that, if I got nothing beyond the autoreply within a month of that, I would then send the same info to the McCanns.

I need to check expiry date and whether I've got any comeback from SY (which I doubt very much).

Since the McCanns are prevented by law from getting their hands on the 74,000 calls, the issue then becomes whether they can leverage SY into putting a bit more effort into this aspect.  And that is always assuming the McCanns think there is anything worthwhile in this.

[jassi]

Unless you know the phone types of the McCanns and the operational characteristics of such, little can be gleaned from 'missing' anything on the phones.

I delete my Internet history at various times for various purposes, and I haven't broken any laws.  None of the deletions have anything suspicious behind them.

The records the PJ obtained do not appear, to me, to be suspicious.  In brief, the Tapas 9 made limited contact before the disappearance, and lots afterwards.

I have been looking at the 74,104 records from a different point of view.  The PJ found them difficult to analyse then.  Andy Redwood is on record that OG has also found them difficult to analyse, particularly PAYG.  I have been in touch with OG re methods of cracking this issue.  To date, I have got the standard automated response and nothing more.

From memory, I sent the info to SY on 13 Dec 2015, along with a message saying that, if I got nothing beyond the autoreply within a month of that, I would then send the same info to the McCanns.

I need to check expiry date and whether I've got any comeback from SY (which I doubt very much).

Since the McCanns are prevented by law from getting their hands on the 74,000 calls, the issue then becomes whether they can leverage SY into putting a bit more effort into this aspect.  And that is always assuming the McCanns think there is anything worthwhile in this.

I thought SY were supposed to be experts at this sort of thing. Perhaps they should have contracted it out to G4S or GCHQ

[ShiningInLuz]

I thought SY were supposed to be experts at this sort of thing. Perhaps they should have contracted it out to G4S or GCHQ

I am sure they have sufficient expertise to deal with a data source of this size.  Size was problematical for the PJ in 2007, but 2007 was when things changed and cheap, off the shelf software became available that handle data pools many thousands of times bigger.  Size simply is no longer an issue.  My spreadsheet in Open Office laughs at 74,000 items.

Then we hit a second issue.  Neither the PJ nor SY were/are familiar with Luz, and that happens to be a magic ingredient.

Then we hit a third issue.  The phone traffic covers Portugal, the UK, Germany, Holland, Ireland, and probably others such as Switzerland and Spain.  We are not talking small or easy here, whether in PJ days or SY days.

However, the issue raised by Andy Redwood is PAYG phones, so let me give you one example from that.  I am sitting on a 2011 Blue Pages guide, supposedly commercial, but with an awful lot of mobile numbers in it.  One section is used for 'adults only', and I would guess most of those numbers are PAYG, but identified in my phone book.

I have passed to SY 10 land-line numbers for Luz organisations that a) no longer are in existence and b) do not turn up in a Yellow Pages check.  I also passed them 10 mobile numbers that are Luz related and which do not turn up in either a Yellow Pages check or a White Pages check.  I simply took these as a sample.  I am sitting on more and most households in Luz are sitting on a stash equivalent to mine, and that is thousands of such stashes.

Here is some speculation on my part.  The 2014 digs to the east of Luz seem to match up to Euclides Monteiro aka tractorman.  If his phone was active in Luz that evening, one has to ask why.  The data probably, but not certainly, answers that.  The 'correct' pattern would give him the alibi of not being near 5A at the time, even if he was in Luz.  The 'incorrect' pattern, should it place him in Luz, would not rule him out, but it would not prove guilt.

The PJ concluded that the phone data could not be boiled down - there had to be suspects first, which could then be analysed.  SY seems unable to boil the data down.  I'm confident the data can be boiled down much further.  As to whether the result is useful, I clearly cannot tell.

[slartibartfast]

I am sure they have sufficient expertise to deal with a data source of this size.  Size was problematical for the PJ in 2007, but 2007 was when things changed and cheap, off the shelf software became available that handle data pools many thousands of times bigger.  Size simply is no longer an issue.  My spreadsheet in Open Office laughs at 74,000 items.

Then we hit a second issue.  Neither the PJ nor SY were/are familiar with Luz, and that happens to be a magic ingredient.

Then we hit a third issue.  The phone traffic covers Portugal, the UK, Germany, Holland, Ireland, and probably others such as Switzerland and Spain.  We are not talking small or easy here, whether in PJ days or SY days.

However, the issue raised by Andy Redwood is PAYG phones, so let me give you one example from that.  I am sitting on a 2011 Blue Pages guide, supposedly commercial, but with an awful lot of mobile numbers in it.  One section is used for 'adults only', and I would guess most of those numbers are PAYG, but identified in my phone book.

I have passed to SY 10 land-line numbers for Luz organisations that a) no longer are in existence and b) do not turn up in a Yellow Pages check.  I also passed them 10 mobile numbers that are Luz related and which do not turn up in either a Yellow Pages check or a White Pages check.  I simply took these as a sample.  I am sitting on more and most households in Luz are sitting on a stash equivalent to mine, and that is thousands of such stashes.

Here is some speculation on my part.  The 2014 digs to the east of Luz seem to match up to Euclides Monteiro aka tractorman.  If his phone was active in Luz that evening, one has to ask why.  The data probably, but not certainly, answers that.  The 'correct' pattern would give him the alibi of not being near 5A at the time, even if he was in Luz.  The 'incorrect' pattern, should it place him in Luz, would not rule him out, but it would not prove guilt.

The PJ concluded that the phone data could not be boiled down - there had to be suspects first, which could then be analysed.  SY seems unable to boil the data down.  I'm confident the data can be boiled down much further.  As to whether the result is useful, I clearly cannot tell.

The coin a phrase, a phone pinging in an area has no evidential reliability.

[G-Unit]

The coin a phrase, a phone pinging in an area has no evidential reliability.

The phone companies records aren't always reliable either;

In the records of this operator there are further curious situations that were not possible to explain. In some cases it is unknown which antenna was activated either by the calling mobile phone or by the called device. One example of that arises also in the above list: a record on 20 May at 20:19:45. It is known that Russel was not in our country on that occasion, the record should appear in listings of Kate, however that does not occur................
Also in the data provided by this operator are 14 SMS messages received by the mobile phone of Gerald Patrick McCann, sent by the number 4477850####, however in the first listings obtained by the analysts, referring to the activations of the antennae that serve the area from where Madeleine disappeared, for the 2nd to 4th May, those messages had originated from mobile phone number 4478152####.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PHONE_TEXTS.htm

[G-Unit]

I was reading Russell O'B's rogaroty interview again. He seemed very confused. He says that Matthew Oldfield was ill on the Sunday night, so wasn't at the Tapas bar;

Matt was unwell and I recall I went to see him, he had been suffering from a stomach upset so I can say that there were only eight adults at the Tapas bar that night.

He checked on Matt's kids though, so was Matt in there or was he somewhere else;

On Sunday I recall I checked Kate and Gerry’s apartment as well as Rachael and Matt’s. I had taken Matt’s keys and I believe that their door was deadlocked the same as ours and that I would have needed to turn the key two times.

I actually went into Kate and Gerry’s room, erm, on the Sunday and Matt’s room on the Sunday

So, yeah, Matt was unwell on the Sunday.  Yeah, there was only eight of us there.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm

[mercury]

Not according to Gerry he didnt and if he did how did he get in? Maybe they all got their days wrong...will be the answer......no wonder the PJ couldnt make head or tail of their statements


(Sunday)

That they left the house by the main door, that he was sure he locked, it being that the rear door was also closed and locked.
........
Dinner ended at 23h00, during which every half-hour the deponent or KATE went, alternately, to the apartment to confirm that all was well with the children. On that day only the deponent and his wife entered the apartment. He is sure that they always entered through the front door, not knowing [how] to show [demonstrate] that they locked it with a key. Usually they entered the apartment, in which one of the lounge lights was lit, going to the children's bedroom door that was partially open [ajar] and limited themselves to peep inside, trying to hear if the children were crying
GM 10/5/07

[G-Unit]

Ha ha;

On Sunday I recall I checked Kate and Gerry’s apartment as well as Rachael and Matt’s. I had taken Matt’s keys and I believe that their door was deadlocked the same as ours and that I would have needed to turn the key two times.  We kept our shutters down, and the patio door was closed I am not sure whether theirs was the same.  I recall that Kate and Gerry’s apartment was accessed by the patios door which was left closed and unlocked.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm

[mercury]

And for good measure, ROB 10/05/07

Because he is asked, states that he went to the apartment of the McCann couple once but does not remember if he was asked to go or went of his own accord. He furthers that he did not know if the glass sliding doors were locked or not but that probably Gerry told him on this night to enter his apartment to check on the children.

[G-Unit]

Russell O'Brien, the weakest link.

4th May

he went there at around 8.45pm. When he arrived at the restaurant, nearly all the adults were present, without children, with the exception of David, Fiona and Diane. They arrived more or less 5 minutes later. So the Paynes arrived at about 8.50pm

He recalls that Matthew Oldfield left the restaurant at shortly after 9pm to check the children. After the Paynes arrived then?

At around 9.35/9.40, taking advantage of the lull [waiting pause] before being served with the first [main] course, the informant left the restaurant with Matthew to check the children. When he got there, his daughter **** was crying. He stayed in her bedroom with her. He supposes that Matthew checked his apartment. No mention of anyone offering to check the McCann apartment.

Rogatory Interview and improved memory (I thought memories faded, but this group's seem to improve with time)

I went down to the Tapas bar the adults of 5H were running late as usual, David and Fiona are always late and it is a standing joke in our group.  Around 21:00hours Matt was going over to check on Grace so he said he would chase (page 6) the Payne’s up as we were all waiting to order and we were conscious that the waiting staff wanted us to place our orders.

I needed to go to the toilet so Matt and I decided we would go and check on the children.  We walked together I recall that the light was fading I went straight to 5D I could hear Evie was murmuring. Still no mention of offering to check the McCann children

we walked around the side of the building and I don’t recall making any particular look at the front of the building to notice any changes in the, in the shutters.  But we probably wouldn’t have bothered, you know, ‘a’ low suspicion anyway and ‘b’ we were going to go to each of the flats and just have a listen, so I don’t think we made any visual check of it first.  So the intention was just to listen at the shutters?

[Alfred R Jones]

Russell O'Brien, the weakest link.

4th May

he went there at around 8.45pm. When he arrived at the restaurant, nearly all the adults were present, without children, with the exception of David, Fiona and Diane. They arrived more or less 5 minutes later. So the Paynes arrived at about 8.50pm

He recalls that Matthew Oldfield left the restaurant at shortly after 9pm to check the children. After the Paynes arrived then?

At around 9.35/9.40, taking advantage of the lull [waiting pause] before being served with the first [main] course, the informant left the restaurant with Matthew to check the children. When he got there, his daughter **** was crying. He stayed in her bedroom with her. He supposes that Matthew checked his apartment. No mention of anyone offering to check the McCann apartment.

Rogatory Interview and improved memory (I thought memories faded, but this group's seem to improve with time)

I went down to the Tapas bar the adults of 5H were running late as usual, David and Fiona are always late and it is a standing joke in our group.  Around 21:00hours Matt was going over to check on Grace so he said he would chase (page 6) the Payne’s up as we were all waiting to order and we were conscious that the waiting staff wanted us to place our orders.

I needed to go to the toilet so Matt and I decided we would go and check on the children.  We walked together I recall that the light was fading I went straight to 5D I could hear Evie was murmuring. Still no mention of offering to check the McCann children

we walked around the side of the building and I don’t recall making any particular look at the front of the building to notice any changes in the, in the shutters.  But we probably wouldn’t have bothered, you know, ‘a’ low suspicion anyway and ‘b’ we were going to go to each of the flats and just have a listen, so I don’t think we made any visual check of it first.  So the intention was just to listen at the shutters?

The weakest link in what sense G-Unit?

[sadie]

Russell O'Brien, the weakest link.

4th May

he went there at around 8.45pm. When he arrived at the restaurant, nearly all the adults were present, without children, with the exception of David, Fiona and Diane. They arrived more or less 5 minutes later. So the Paynes arrived at about 8.50pm

He recalls that Matthew Oldfield left the restaurant at shortly after 9pm to check the children. After the Paynes arrived then?

At around 9.35/9.40, taking advantage of the lull [waiting pause] before being served with the first [main] course, the informant left the restaurant with Matthew to check the children. When he got there, his daughter **** was crying. He stayed in her bedroom with her. He supposes that Matthew checked his apartment. No mention of anyone offering to check the McCann apartment.

Rogatory Interview and improved memory (I thought memories faded, but this group's seem to improve with time)

I went down to the Tapas bar the adults of 5H were running late as usual, David and Fiona are always late and it is a standing joke in our group.  Around 21:00hours Matt was going over to check on Grace so he said he would chase (page 6) the Payne’s up as we were all waiting to order and we were conscious that the waiting staff wanted us to place our orders.

I needed to go to the toilet so Matt and I decided we would go and check on the children.  We walked together I recall that the light was fading I went straight to 5D I could hear Evie was murmuring. Still no mention of offering to check the McCann children

we walked around the side of the building and I don’t recall making any particular look at the front of the building to notice any changes in the, in the shutters.  But we probably wouldn’t have bothered, you know, ‘a’ low suspicion anyway and ‘b’ we were going to go to each of the flats and just have a listen, so I don’t think we made any visual check of it first.  So the intention was just to listen at the shutters?

Do try and be accurate Gunit, please.

You state May 4th at the top.  To anyone reading that it would seem that the acount you give is about what happened on May 4th, the day after Madeleine vanished.

It was actually Russells Statement that was dated May 4th.  And what appears to the uniniated to have happened on May 4th actually was on May 3rd.  Very misleading. 

Could you please amend?  Thanks.



Now the body of the statement:

You say .. No mention of anyone offering to check the McCann apartment.

Still no mention of offering to check the McCann children

and

So the intention was just to listen at the shutters?


You have been going over and over this case in fine detail for months and months now, Gunit.

Surely you knew that After checking his own apartment Matt went to Russells aopartment and upon finding that Russell had a sick child and was not walking back, he exited thru the back patio door.   He then walked along the alley and up the back steps to the Mccann apartment where he let himself in via the patio door.

He went to the Mccann childrens bedroom and looked in.  He saw the twins and the bottom of Madeleines bed, but Madeleine herself was (or should have been) asleep just around the corner out of sight.  A most reasonable check by most peoples standards.


Why would Russell say any more?  He didn't actually witness Matt in the apartment.  He said what he saw and definitely knew, which was tghe correct thing to do..

And for Matt to claim that he went in * IF * he didn't would be stupid, cos the patio area was so well illuminated by the street lamp opposite and in good sight of the tapas group only about 50 metres away..

Surely you knew all this?   
Seems that you want to make something out of nothing.  I wonder why?

[Eleanor]

So glad to see you back, Sadie.