Author Topic: EU membership, should we stay or leave?  (Read 125554 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline John

Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
« Reply #255 on: June 20, 2016, 03:37:11 PM »
Interesting thread - in that it throws sceptics and supporters up in the air in one argument only for some of them to land on different sides of the fence in another argument - whoever thought I'd ever be agreeing with Stephen?! @)(++(*

I don't trust Osborne either.

However, it won't change my views on the referendum.


So let's see, you both agree with giving away nearly £200 million to the EU each and every week to squander on eastern European States, agree with the concept of a European Army and are quite willing to welcome the 70 million Turks into our country to live and work?

Personally its a no brainer but over to you Stephen and Alf?
« Last Edit: June 20, 2016, 03:39:30 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
« Reply #256 on: June 20, 2016, 03:48:46 PM »

So let's see, you both agree with giving away nearly £200 million to the EU each and every week to squander on eastern European States, agree with the concept of a European Army and are quite willing to welcome the 70 million Turks into our country to live and work?

Personally its a no brainer but over to you Stephen and Alf?

You are making up figures again John.

I have asked you to state where this money goes.

You haven't replied.

We have a veto as other countries do for Turkey's entrance, and since Turkey has been assisting ISIL, no chance.

European army ?

We will see on that.

Are you forgetting our Financial Trade surplus with the EU.

I see that Nissan are taking legal action against the 'Vote Leave' campaign for using the Nissan logo in their literature.


So what do you think of Boris Johnson's father backing the 'Remain Campaign ' ?
« Last Edit: June 20, 2016, 03:55:46 PM by stephen25000 »

Offline John

Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
« Reply #257 on: June 20, 2016, 04:03:38 PM »
You are making up figures again John.

I have asked you to state where this money goes.

You haven't replied.

We have a veto as other countries do for Turkey's entrance, and since Turkey has been assisting ISIL, no chance.

European army ?

We will see on that.

Are you forgetting our Financial Trade surplus with the EU.

I see that Nissan are taking legal action against the 'Vote Leave' campaign for using the Nissan logo in their literature.


So what do you think of Boris Johnson's father backing the 'Remain Campaign ' ?

These figures have been independently verified by the Office for National Statistics which you yourself linked to so I would appreciate a retraction of your claim that I made them up.  Regardless, the fact that we send well over £100 million to the EU each and every week never to see it again is a national disgrace.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2016, 04:17:35 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline John

Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
« Reply #258 on: June 20, 2016, 04:13:51 PM »
The £350m-a-week figure comes from the Office for National Statistics, which said the UK contributed £365m a week to the EU in 2014 (or £335m on average in 2010-14).

So what's the real figure?
The UK Statistics Authority dealt with this in the letter they sent last month.

They started with the £19.1bn total figure handed over from the British government to the EU in 2014 (£365m a week).

Then they took away certain benefits to the UK in three steps:

1. Add the government's rebate
This was worth £4.4bn in 2014.

Factor it in and you get Britain paying £14.7bn to the EU (£285m a week).

If you take an average for 2010-2014 you get Britain paying £13.9bn (£270m a week).

2. Add direct EU payments to the public sector
These were worth £4.8bn in 2014.

Factor them in too and you get Britain paying £9.8bn to the EU (£190m a week).

If you take an average for 2010-2014 you get Britain paying £8.9bn (£170m a week).

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/britain-really-send-350million-week-7944213


Now factor in the fact that we have been paying more each year which
increases the £170 million a week figure to that already stated.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2016, 04:16:50 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Jean-Pierre

Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
« Reply #259 on: June 20, 2016, 04:22:55 PM »

So let's see, you both agree with giving away nearly £200 million to the EU each and every week to squander on eastern European States, agree with the concept of a European Army and are quite willing to welcome the 70 million Turks into our country to live and work?

Personally its a no brainer but over to you Stephen and Alf?

Under what Gove and Johnson have portrayed as the "yoke" of European membership, the UK has managed to still be the 5th largest economy in the world.  As such, I believe we are capable of making a contribution to assist the poorer countries and help them to develop their economies.  The cost - £10bn - roughly.  That's just over 1.3% of our annual budget. (our GDP is around £200bn). In other words, not much more than a rounding error.

Of the UK  labour force of around 31m, some 4.9m were not born in the UK.  (2015 figures)

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-07-30/uk-immigration-the-facts-in-nine-charts

Of these 2.9m were born outside of Europe.  The number of eastern European migrants working in the UK are just under 1m = so just over 3% of uk workers are migrants from Eastern Europe.   

The working age population of all of the countries in Eastern Europe who fall into the free movement category is around 70m - so around 1.4% of their working population are now in the UK.  . 

The total population of Turkey is 73m.  Are you suggesting that all of them will immediately come to the UK?   

Finally, will Turkey succeed in becoming a member of the EU?  Not the way they are going they wont. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35832035
 
John - I accept that you are a passionate advocate of leave, but it may be better to base your reasons on sober facts than wild assumptions. 

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
« Reply #260 on: June 20, 2016, 04:45:07 PM »
These figures have been independently verified by the Office for National Statistics which you yourself linked to so I would appreciate a retraction of your claim that I made them up.  Regardless, the fact that we send well over £100 million to the EU each and every week never to see it again is a national disgrace.

The link stated the amount was paid after the rebate.

Second, can you supply the exact net figure and then where is the net paid ?

I did not mean to infer that you made up a net amount, but please be concise with the figures.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2016, 04:49:05 PM by stephen25000 »

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
« Reply #261 on: June 20, 2016, 04:47:16 PM »
Under what Gove and Johnson have portrayed as the "yoke" of European membership, the UK has managed to still be the 5th largest economy in the world.  As such, I believe we are capable of making a contribution to assist the poorer countries and help them to develop their economies.  The cost - £10bn - roughly.  That's just over 1.3% of our annual budget. (our GDP is around £200bn). In other words, not much more than a rounding error.

Of the UK  labour force of around 31m, some 4.9m were not born in the UK.  (2015 figures)

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-07-30/uk-immigration-the-facts-in-nine-charts

Of these 2.9m were born outside of Europe.  The number of eastern European migrants working in the UK are just under 1m = so just over 3% of uk workers are migrants from Eastern Europe.   

The working age population of all of the countries in Eastern Europe who fall into the free movement category is around 70m - so around 1.4% of their working population are now in the UK.  . 

The total population of Turkey is 73m.  Are you suggesting that all of them will immediately come to the UK?   

Finally, will Turkey succeed in becoming a member of the EU?  Not the way they are going they wont. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35832035
 
John - I accept that you are a passionate advocate of leave, but it may be better to base your reasons on sober facts than wild assumptions.

I am in total agreement with you JP.

Offline John

Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
« Reply #262 on: June 20, 2016, 04:54:28 PM »
Under what Gove and Johnson have portrayed as the "yoke" of European membership, the UK has managed to still be the 5th largest economy in the world.  As such, I believe we are capable of making a contribution to assist the poorer countries and help them to develop their economies.  The cost - £10bn - roughly.  That's just over 1.3% of our annual budget. (our GDP is around £200bn). In other words, not much more than a rounding error.

Of the UK  labour force of around 31m, some 4.9m were not born in the UK.  (2015 figures)

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-07-30/uk-immigration-the-facts-in-nine-charts

Of these 2.9m were born outside of Europe.  The number of eastern European migrants working in the UK are just under 1m = so just over 3% of uk workers are migrants from Eastern Europe.   

The working age population of all of the countries in Eastern Europe who fall into the free movement category is around 70m - so around 1.4% of their working population are now in the UK.  . 

The total population of Turkey is 73m.  Are you suggesting that all of them will immediately come to the UK?   

Finally, will Turkey succeed in becoming a member of the EU?  Not the way they are going they wont. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35832035
 
John - I accept that you are a passionate advocate of leave, but it may be better to base your reasons on sober facts than wild assumptions.

But they are.  I have watched as immigrants from Eastern Europe have displaced our young people out of jobs and my region is by no means what I would call a high migrant area. If this continues my children and grandchildren will struggle to find employment within their own region.  It is all very well allowing migrants into the UK but it must be done in a constructive manner and not as it is being done now.  Cameron's immigration policy is in tatters, his promises have been broken.  The Government claims that they control immigration but that is a lie.  Each and every illegal immigrant who makes it to the UK is allowed to stay and that is a joke!

« Last Edit: June 20, 2016, 04:58:30 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Jean-Pierre

Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
« Reply #263 on: June 20, 2016, 04:56:18 PM »
The link stated the amount was paid after the rebate.

Second, can you supply the exact net figure and then where is the net paid.

I did not mean to infer that you made up a net amount, but please be concise with the figures.

So we can agree on something!  I agree that basing things on facts is helpful to all sides.

"The UK’s net contribution to the EU Budget in 2015 is estimated at £8.5 billion, up from £4.3 billion in 2009 and down from £9.8 billion in 2014. It is forecast to fluctuate between £11.2 billion and £7.3 billion a year between 2016 and 2020."

So around £163m a week. 

http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN06091/SN06091.pdf

 


stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
« Reply #264 on: June 20, 2016, 04:58:53 PM »
But they are.  I have watched as immigrants from Eastern Europe have displaced our young people out of jobs and my region is by no means what I would call a high migrant area. If this continues my children and grandchildren will struggle to find employment within their own region.  It is all very well allowing migrants into the UK but it must be done in a constructive manner and not as it VI's being done now.  Cameron's immigration policy is in tatters, his promises have been broken.  The Government claims that they control immigration but that is a lie.  Each and every illegal immigrant who makes it to the UK is allowed to stay and that is a joke!

We have dealt with this before John.

Migrants from inside and outside the EU are net beneficiaries to the UK treasury.

Offline Jean-Pierre

Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
« Reply #265 on: June 20, 2016, 05:03:55 PM »
We have dealt with this before John.

Migrants from inside and outside the EU are net beneficiaries to the UK treasury.

As a general principle, immigrants gravitate to economically successful countries. 

So there is a simple solution to the "immigration problem".....

Offline John

Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
« Reply #266 on: June 20, 2016, 05:05:24 PM »
So we can agree on something!  I agree that basing things on facts is helpful to all sides.

"The UK’s net contribution to the EU Budget in 2015 is estimated at £8.5 billion, up from £4.3 billion in 2009 and down from £9.8 billion in 2014. It is forecast to fluctuate between £11.2 billion and £7.3 billion a year between 2016 and 2020."

So around £163m a week. 

http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN06091/SN06091.pdf

You forgot the bit which stated that it is forecast to fluctuate between £11.2 billion and £7.3 billion a year between 2016 and 2020.

That is up to £215 million a week net.

As for Turkey with its 70 million population, Cameron has refused to state he would veto their entry to the EU because he and the other 27 EU State leaders have agreed a deal in secret to back Turkey.  Cameron is a liar when he states that Turkey will never join the EU or that a EU Army will never happen. If we maintain the status quo that is exactly where it is going.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2016, 05:11:16 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Jean-Pierre

Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
« Reply #267 on: June 20, 2016, 05:08:04 PM »
But they are.  I have watched as immigrants from Eastern Europe have displaced our young people out of jobs and my region is by no means what I would call a high migrant area. If this continues my children and grandchildren will struggle to find employment within their own region.  It is all very well allowing migrants into the UK but it must be done in a constructive manner and not as it is being done now.  Cameron's immigration policy is in tatters, his promises have been broken.  The Government claims that they control immigration but that is a lie.  Each and every illegal immigrant who makes it to the UK is allowed to stay and that is a joke!

Illegal immigration is a different matter - I do not understand how quitting the EU will solve that. 

Offline John

Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
« Reply #268 on: June 20, 2016, 05:13:20 PM »
We have dealt with this before John.

Migrants from inside and outside the EU are net beneficiaries to the UK treasury.

Really, does that include the million working illegally in London?
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Jean-Pierre

Re: EU membership, should we stay or leave?
« Reply #269 on: June 20, 2016, 05:13:55 PM »
You forgot the bit which stated that it is forecast to fluctuate between £11.2 billion and £7.3 billion a year between 2016 and 2020.

That is up to £215 million a week net.

Why not be a bit more even handed in your argument, John. 

Up to £215m a week or down to £140m a week net.