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Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => The kidnapping and shooting/murder of Anni Dewani while on her honeymoon in South Africa. Trial of Shrien Dewani was held in Cape Town, SA. => Topic started by: dewanifacts on August 04, 2015, 04:07:12 PM

Title: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 04, 2015, 04:07:12 PM
If any of you people are still interested in this case and its many unanswered questions, you may be interested in our analysis and latest news/blog. Check out our site https://dewanifacts.wordpress.com/


Editor added Trial Report.

www.saflii.org/za/cases/ZAWCHC/2014/188.html

329
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: John on August 04, 2015, 05:08:51 PM
If any of you people are still interested in this case and its many unanswered questions, you may be interested in our analysis and latest news/blog. Check out our site https://dewanifacts.wordpress.com/

Thank you for the information and welcome to the forum.   8((()*/

I read the blog some time ago and one thing which still bothers me is the number of unknowns still to be addressed.  One such being as to why Shrien Dewani refused to cooperate with the S African authorities?
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 04, 2015, 05:34:25 PM
Thanks John. Regarding Dewani's "refusal" to cooperate with SA authorities, I guess the term "refusal" is in the eye of the beholder.

He cooperated up to the point where he realised he was being framed for a crime that he didn't commit by the SA Police Service and the NPA. At that point he clammed up and did what he could to avoid willingly submitting himself to injustice.

One of the common refrains that people have is "why didn't he just go to South Africa and clear his name?". The answer is simple. He was entitled to the presumption of innocence and the onus is never on someone to prove their innocence. There was never any credible evidence of him having anything to do with the crime. He knew that because he knew he was innocent. And he was ultimately vindicated by the court chucking the case out for that very same reason; no credible evidence linking him to the crime. 

Having said that; I do agree with you that one of the most puzzling mysteries that remain, is item 8 on the "Unknowns" page (https://dewanifacts.wordpress.com/still-unknown/) of our site. Shrien Dewani’s reason(s) for not telling SAPS about the money or the helicopter ride when he was first debriefed in the aftermath of the murder. In that respect he didn't cooperate, although we still don't know whether he ommitted those details consciously or whether he had some other reason for doing so. Those omissions made him look very suspicious and in my opinion he would do himself a great service if he came out and explained himself in an interview, book, article or some other format.






Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 05, 2015, 02:43:51 PM
Our aim is for the website to be a complete and accurate representation of the facts and claims made in regard to the case. We would value any feedback from forum members. If you think that we need to amend/delete any content, if you feel we should add in specific content, or if you think that we have wrongly catagorised any of the claims, please let us know. We welcome all feedback and we are happy to discuss.

Many thanks
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: mercury on August 05, 2015, 08:51:03 PM
Hi there DF,welcome

The thing  that bothered me was that he took his wife whilst on honeymoon no less, (not that any other time would have been great either) to one of the most dangerous parts of the area at night....what for?



Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 06, 2015, 03:57:29 PM
Hi mercury,

Its a fair question and is partially answered on our website. Item Baseless (26) - https://dewanifacts.wordpress.com/baseless/

Despite being dangerous, Gugulethu has jazz bars and other nightlife that is marketed by Cape Town's tourism website.

The second part of the answer is to point out that Dewani wasn't the driver of the car and therefore it wasn't actually he who took his wife into such a dangerous area.  Tongo (their taxi driver) had engaged in some discussion with Anni about what they might want to do or see after dinner, and Anni allegedly said that she'd be quite keen to see the "real Africa" and thus her and Shrien placed themselves at Tongo's guidance. They did exactly what thousands of other tourists do every day; they trusted their friendly local tour guide. When the hijack occured, Shrien and Anni were apparently flicking through photos from the game reserve leg of their honeymoon, only half concentrating on their exact whereabouts, which is not surprising given they were driving on a dark freeway with nothing much to see. 
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: mercury on August 06, 2015, 10:05:53 PM
Thanks DF

Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 08, 2015, 11:10:09 PM
Some more facts for you Dewanifacts:

1). It stood out as mile as a murder from the nanosecond it hit the news.  I lived in South Africa for nearly a decade:  family annihilators, hijackings, murders - they are a daily occurance in the news.  In that context it stood out like a saw thumb that the woman had died but the man survived:  that simply never happens.  South African criminals are very hardened and in Africa life is cheap:  if something goes wrong in SA it goes epically wrong and you're highly likely to be shot dead.  Sometimes the girl gets away whilst they're shooting the guy - he usually is either trying to prevent the car jacking or protecting the girl, occasionally they might let them get out the car and drive off - but mostly the hijackers don't want any hassel or witnesses, so having got out of the car the occupants are shot dead.  They don't shoot them inside the car:  it takes ages to get a dead body out of the driver's seat and it messes up the car too.  And who the hell thinks a man can exit a moving car by doing a forward roll out if the window - and without even a scratch, let alone broken bones and half-skinned:  that's seriously taking the piss.  And why are cars hijacked?  To be immediately stripped and turned into spare parts:  that model wasn't even one that's normally hijacked because there isn't a big market for its spare parts:  which is why it was abandoned.  So they hijacked the car to abandon it?  Okay!  Maybe they hijacked it to rape the girl:  in which case how lucky it had a pretty girl in it.  South African prisons are vile with open gutters to crap in and cockroaches crawling over the occupants:  criminals can rape any kind of girl in a Township at far less risk than targeting a foreign tourist.

2) The Taxi:  just HOW did he manage to get an unlicensed one?  They aren't allowed to tout for business in Cape Town Airport and all the luxurious hotels have a shuttle bus. Right outside the Cape Grace is a taxi rank - but only the poshest, licensed taxis.  A short walk further along, outside the shopping mall, is another taxi rank:  less smart cars (all still old Mercs etc) but all still licensed.  Driving around the area dropping people off are loads more taxis - all licensed.  In fact, having lived in CTN and used to jumping in taxis, I still don't know what he was doing in an unlicensed one.  The taxi drivers were all prepped for the Workd Cup:  they will advise you if they think you are going somewhere dangerous or foolish and suggest a better alternative.

3).  Nobody, but nobody, visits CapeTown and immediately visits a dangerous township.  They just don't.  Most people don't visit a township at all, but if they do want to the Tourist Information Office about 30 seconds walk from the Cape Grace Hotel, where the Dewanis were staying, can organise a proper tourist-friendly Shabeen tour - a Shabeen is a township pub.  For that matter I expect the concierge of the hotel would also organise it with the tourist office for them.  But as I said, NOBODY does this probably even in their first fortnight in Cape Town, possibly even ever.  The Cape Grace is a super-delux hotel right on the tip of the V&A waterfront:  you step out to an incredibly pretty waterside development with dozens of pavement cafes, restaurants, art galleries, wine bars, buskers, live jazz, fishing boats, visiting war ships, a steamer that does harbour tours, the ferry across to Robben Island, the lifeboat, a lighthouse, a variety of moving pedestrian bridges which shut periodically to let another boat through, shops selling model ships, ostrich egg lights, local beadwork, every evening the friendly seals are coaxed into a safe area with food - all this with a backdrop of historic buildings and the magnificent mountain itself.  There was no need for Dewani to take his new wife to some crappy little shopping centre with half the shops closed several miles away:  right next to the hotel is a world-class shopping centre with everything they could desire - designer luxury goods, clothes, South Africa's unique take on interior decor, food, tourist souvenirs, wine, jewellers - all open late 7 days a week.  If that wasn't enough  Theresa us also a multiplex cinema in there - or if that doesn't fancy, the IMAX is 5 mins walk further, as is the World Class Aquarium and its neighbouring craft market.  Feeling more adventurous:  walk, take a river taxi or a road taxi or a rickshaw 5 mins into Cape Town CBD:  enjoy the eclectic shops, the Art Deco architecture, Parliament Gardens, the Slave Museum, the Flower Market, produce from all over Africa in Greenmarket Square, more buskers and music and the fabulous late, late nightlife and live music in the Cigar Bars and cafes of Long Street.  Bored now?  Time to go up the mountain in the rotating cable car to admire the view, feed the dassies and wild turkeys, maybe do the world's highest commercial abseil?  Then of course there's the famous Kirstenbosh botanic gardens - and we haven't even hit the beach yet!  Choices-choices:  so many, all with powdery white sand and the sun setting into the sea.  Frankly, amongst the best beaches in the world:  and fringing them is a collection of seaside villages all with fabulously chic bars, African tradesmen selling seashells, beads, local craft markets etc.  STILL bored?  Well that's when most people head for Robben Island to see where Nelson Mandela was imprisoned and understand more of the local history.  Or the castle.  Or the many vineyards with thatched Cape Dutch buildings and avenues of 400 year old oak trees - each with Michelin level restaurants serving food to accompany their wine.  BUT EVEN THEN most people still haven't exhausted their possibilities:  further round there's the naval town of Simonstown:  you can go whale watching in false bay - even do a helicopter ride around the mountain.

So I hope you can see now why it stands out like a sore thumb that he took her to a shitty dangerous township in an unlicensed taxi as soon as they arrived and that it's inconceivable that he was allowed to live whilst she was murdered.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: puglove on August 08, 2015, 11:45:59 PM
Some more facts for you Dewanifacts:

1). It stood out as mile as a murder from the nanosecond it hit the news.  I lived in South Africa for nearly a decade:  family annihilators, hijackings, murders - they are a daily occurance in the news.  In that context it stood out like a saw thumb that the woman had died but the man survived:  that simply never happens.  South African criminals are very hardened and in Africa life is cheap:  if something goes wrong in SA it goes epically wrong and you're highly likely to be shot dead.  Sometimes the girl gets away whilst they're shooting the guy - he usually is either trying to prevent the car jacking or protecting the girl, occasionally they might let them get out the car and drive off - but mostly the hijackers don't want any hassel or witnesses, so having got out of the car the occupants are shot dead.  They don't shoot them inside the car:  it takes ages to get a dead body out of the driver's seat and it messes up the car too.  And who the hell thinks a man can exit a moving car by doing a forward roll out if the window - and without even a scratch, let alone broken bones and half-skinned:  that's seriously taking the piss.  And why are cars hijacked?  To be immediately stripped and turned into spare parts:  that model wasn't even one that's normally hijacked because there isn't a big market for its spare parts:  which is why it was abandoned.  So they hijacked the car to abandon it?  Okay!  Maybe they hijacked it to rape the girl:  in which case how lucky it had a pretty girl in it.  South African prisons are vile with open gutters to crap in and cockroaches crawling over the occupants:  criminals can rape any kind of girl in a Township at far less risk than targeting a foreign tourist.

2) The Taxi:  just HOW did he manage to get an unlicensed one?  They aren't allowed to tout for business in Cape Town Airport and all the luxurious hotels have a shuttle bus. Right outside the Cape Grace is a taxi rank - but only the poshest, licensed taxis.  A short walk further along, outside the shopping mall, is another taxi rank:  less smart cars (all still old Mercs etc) but all still licensed.  Driving around the area dropping people off are loads more taxis - all licensed.  In fact, having lived in CTN and used to jumping in taxis, I still don't know what he was doing in an unlicensed one.  The taxi drivers were all prepped for the Workd Cup:  they will advise you if they think you are going somewhere dangerous or foolish and suggest a better alternative.

3).  Nobody, but nobody, visits CapeTown and immediately visits a dangerous township.  They just don't.  Most people don't visit a township at all, but if they do want to the Tourist Information Office about 30 seconds walk from the Cape Grace Hotel, where the Dewanis were staying, can organise a proper tourist-friendly Shabeen tour - a Shabeen is a township pub.  For that matter I expect the concierge of the hotel would also organise it with the tourist office for them.  But as I said, NOBODY does this probably even in their first fortnight in Cape Town, possibly even ever.  The Cape Grace is a super-delux hotel right on the tip of the V&A waterfront:  you step out to an incredibly pretty waterside development with dozens of pavement cafes, restaurants, art galleries, wine bars, buskers, live jazz, fishing boats, visiting war ships, a steamer that does harbour tours, the ferry across to Robben Island, the lifeboat, a lighthouse, a variety of moving pedestrian bridges which shut periodically to let another boat through, shops selling model ships, ostrich egg lights, local beadwork, every evening the friendly seals are coaxed into a safe area with food - all this with a backdrop of historic buildings and the magnificent mountain itself.  There was no need for Dewani to take his new wife to some crappy little shopping centre with half the shops closed several miles away:  right next to the hotel is a world-class shopping centre with everything they could desire - designer luxury goods, clothes, South Africa's unique take on interior decor, food, tourist souvenirs, wine, jewellers - all open late 7 days a week.  If that wasn't enough  Theresa us also a multiplex cinema in there - or if that doesn't fancy, the IMAX is 5 mins walk further, as is the World Class Aquarium and its neighbouring craft market.  Feeling more adventurous:  walk, take a river taxi or a road taxi or a rickshaw 5 mins into Cape Town CBD:  enjoy the eclectic shops, the Art Deco architecture, Parliament Gardens, the Slave Museum, the Flower Market, produce from all over Africa in Greenmarket Square, more buskers and music and the fabulous late, late nightlife and live music in the Cigar Bars and cafes of Long Street.  Bored now?  Time to go up the mountain in the rotating cable car to admire the view, feed the dassies and wild turkeys, maybe do the world's highest commercial abseil?  Then of course there's the famous Kirstenbosh botanic gardens - and we haven't even hit the beach yet!  Choices-choices:  so many, all with powdery white sand and the sun setting into the sea.  Frankly, amongst the best beaches in the world:  and fringing them is a collection of seaside villages all with fabulously chic bars, African tradesmen selling seashells, beads, local craft markets etc.  STILL bored?  Well that's when most people head for Robben Island to see where Nelson Mandela was imprisoned and understand more of the local history.  Or the castle.  Or the many vineyards with thatched Cape Dutch buildings and avenues of 400 year old oak trees - each with Michelin level restaurants serving food to accompany their wine.  BUT EVEN THEN most people still haven't exhausted their possibilities:  further round there's the naval town of Simonstown:  you can go whale watching in false bay - even do a helicopter ride around the mountain.

So I hope you can see now why it stands out like a sore thumb that he took her to a shitty dangerous township in an unlicensed taxi as soon as they arrived and that it's inconceivable that he was allowed to live whilst she was murdered.

Blimey. Check you out! Kudos!
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 09, 2015, 09:29:47 AM
Some more facts for you Dewanifacts:

1). It stood out as mile as a murder from the nanosecond it hit the news.  I lived in South Africa for nearly a decade:  family annihilators, hijackings, murders - they are a daily occurance in the news.  In that context it stood out like a saw thumb that the woman had died but the man survived:  that simply never happens.  South African criminals are very hardened and in Africa life is cheap:  if something goes wrong in SA it goes epically wrong and you're highly likely to be shot dead.  Sometimes the girl gets away whilst they're shooting the guy - he usually is either trying to prevent the car jacking or protecting the girl, occasionally they might let them get out the car and drive off - but mostly the hijackers don't want any hassel or witnesses, so having got out of the car the occupants are shot dead.  They don't shoot them inside the car:  it takes ages to get a dead body out of the driver's seat and it messes up the car too.  And who the hell thinks a man can exit a moving car by doing a forward roll out if the window - and without even a scratch, let alone broken bones and half-skinned:  that's seriously taking the piss.  And why are cars hijacked?  To be immediately stripped and turned into spare parts:  that model wasn't even one that's normally hijacked because there isn't a big market for its spare parts:  which is why it was abandoned.  So they hijacked the car to abandon it?  Okay!  Maybe they hijacked it to rape the girl:  in which case how lucky it had a pretty girl in it.  South African prisons are vile with open gutters to crap in and cockroaches crawling over the occupants:  criminals can rape any kind of girl in a Township at far less risk than targeting a foreign tourist.

2) The Taxi:  just HOW did he manage to get an unlicensed one?  They aren't allowed to tout for business in Cape Town Airport and all the luxurious hotels have a shuttle bus. Right outside the Cape Grace is a taxi rank - but only the poshest, licensed taxis.  A short walk further along, outside the shopping mall, is another taxi rank:  less smart cars (all still old Mercs etc) but all still licensed.  Driving around the area dropping people off are loads more taxis - all licensed.  In fact, having lived in CTN and used to jumping in taxis, I still don't know what he was doing in an unlicensed one.  The taxi drivers were all prepped for the Workd Cup:  they will advise you if they think you are going somewhere dangerous or foolish and suggest a better alternative.

3).  Nobody, but nobody, visits CapeTown and immediately visits a dangerous township.  They just don't.  Most people don't visit a township at all, but if they do want to the Tourist Information Office about 30 seconds walk from the Cape Grace Hotel, where the Dewanis were staying, can organise a proper tourist-friendly Shabeen tour - a Shabeen is a township pub.  For that matter I expect the concierge of the hotel would also organise it with the tourist office for them.  But as I said, NOBODY does this probably even in their first fortnight in Cape Town, possibly even ever.  The Cape Grace is a super-delux hotel right on the tip of the V&A waterfront:  you step out to an incredibly pretty waterside development with dozens of pavement cafes, restaurants, art galleries, wine bars, buskers, live jazz, fishing boats, visiting war ships, a steamer that does harbour tours, the ferry across to Robben Island, the lifeboat, a lighthouse, a variety of moving pedestrian bridges which shut periodically to let another boat through, shops selling model ships, ostrich egg lights, local beadwork, every evening the friendly seals are coaxed into a safe area with food - all this with a backdrop of historic buildings and the magnificent mountain itself.  There was no need for Dewani to take his new wife to some crappy little shopping centre with half the shops closed several miles away:  right next to the hotel is a world-class shopping centre with everything they could desire - designer luxury goods, clothes, South Africa's unique take on interior decor, food, tourist souvenirs, wine, jewellers - all open late 7 days a week.  If that wasn't enough  Theresa us also a multiplex cinema in there - or if that doesn't fancy, the IMAX is 5 mins walk further, as is the World Class Aquarium and its neighbouring craft market.  Feeling more adventurous:  walk, take a river taxi or a road taxi or a rickshaw 5 mins into Cape Town CBD:  enjoy the eclectic shops, the Art Deco architecture, Parliament Gardens, the Slave Museum, the Flower Market, produce from all over Africa in Greenmarket Square, more buskers and music and the fabulous late, late nightlife and live music in the Cigar Bars and cafes of Long Street.  Bored now?  Time to go up the mountain in the rotating cable car to admire the view, feed the dassies and wild turkeys, maybe do the world's highest commercial abseil?  Then of course there's the famous Kirstenbosh botanic gardens - and we haven't even hit the beach yet!  Choices-choices:  so many, all with powdery white sand and the sun setting into the sea.  Frankly, amongst the best beaches in the world:  and fringing them is a collection of seaside villages all with fabulously chic bars, African tradesmen selling seashells, beads, local craft markets etc.  STILL bored?  Well that's when most people head for Robben Island to see where Nelson Mandela was imprisoned and understand more of the local history.  Or the castle.  Or the many vineyards with thatched Cape Dutch buildings and avenues of 400 year old oak trees - each with Michelin level restaurants serving food to accompany their wine.  BUT EVEN THEN most people still haven't exhausted their possibilities:  further round there's the naval town of Simonstown:  you can go whale watching in false bay - even do a helicopter ride around the mountain.

So I hope you can see now why it stands out like a sore thumb that he took her to a shitty dangerous township in an unlicensed taxi as soon as they arrived and that it's inconceivable that he was allowed to live whilst she was murdered.

Thanks for your elaborate response. Those aren't facts, my friend. Those are your subjective opinions and thoughts on how you believe tourists should behave. Why was none of that introduced as evidence in court? Because it's not evidence and doesn't prove anything.

Addressing your points individually:

1. Your misinformation on carjackings is rather blatant. Yes, in many cases victims are killed and witnesses are eliminated, however in the vast majority of carjackings, robbery is the prime motive, and the occupants walk away. Sometimes the car itself is the target, but more often than not, it's the money and valuables that the thieves want. A taxi with two wealthy foreign tourists dressed for a night out, makes an excellent robbery proposition, particularly when the taxi driver is in on the operation and has scoped out the targets and gained their trust.

2. How did they get an unlicensed taxi? For someone who has lived in Cape Town, you appear to be blissfully unaware of the airport workings. Unlicensed drivers regularly tout for business outside the doors (they're not permitted inside and technically they're not permitted outside either but it's not policed strictly). The unlicensed guys sell their services by offering discounted rates combined with a defacto tour guide service. "Come with me Sir. It will save you money and I can also be your tour guide, not just a taxi driver to take you from A to B". Deal hunters, even rich ones, often take up this offer. That's what Dewani did.

3. As mentioned above, this is simply your subjective view of how a tourist in Cape Town would behave. It proves nothing. Every tourist travels differently. Some people enjoy guided tours. Some people just want to walk around. Some stay in the main safe tourist zone. Others want to explore the less touristy areas. Some like those open top tour buses. Some prefer to hire a car and drive themselves. Others are happy to place themselves in the hands of a friendly local tour guide. Dewani did the latter.

Like many people, you appear to have made up your mind early on that this was a planned hit, and you have bought into the salacious media narrative, choosing to ignore everything that doesn't fit with that.

Put your 3 "points" to the side for a minute, and instead think about the allegations against Dewani and the credibility of those making the allegations, as well as the veracity of the allegations themselves. Why did Tongo, Mbolombo and Qwabe tell so many lies when testifying? Their freedom and their plea deals were contingent on one simple thing: telling the truth. Why couldn't they do that? Why did they fabricate calls and texts that even the prosecution admits did not exist? Why did Tongo and Mbolombo lie and contradict each other when asked to identify the fifth conspirator referred to in the taped phone call?

Have a read of this article which examines it in more detail: "Did Shrien Dewani get away with murder?" (https://dewanifacts.wordpress.com/2015/07/20/did-shrien-dewani-get-away-with-murder/)

Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 09, 2015, 10:42:36 AM
Thanks for your elaborate response. Those aren't facts, my friend. Those are your subjective opinions and thoughts on how you believe tourists should behave. Why was none of that introduced as evidence in court? Because it's not evidence and doesn't prove anything.

Addressing your points individually:

1. Your misinformation on carjackings is rather blatant. Yes, in many cases victims are killed and witnesses are eliminated, however in the vast majority of carjackings, robbery is the prime motive, and the occupants walk away. Sometimes the car itself is the target, but more often than not, it's the money and valuables that the thieves want. A taxi with two wealthy foreign tourists dressed for a night out, makes an excellent robbery proposition, particularly when the taxi driver is in on the operation and has scoped out the targets and gained their trust.

2. How did they get an unlicensed taxi? For someone who has lived in Cape Town, you appear to be blissfully unaware of the airport workings. Unlicensed drivers regularly tout for business outside the doors (they're not permitted inside and technically they're not permitted outside either but it's not policed strictly). The unlicensed guys sell their services by offering discounted rates combined with a defacto tour guide service. "Come with me Sir. It will save you money and I can also be your tour guide, not just a taxi driver to take you from A to B". Deal hunters, even rich ones, often take up this offer. That's what Dewani did.

3. As mentioned above, this is simply your subjective view of how a tourist in Cape Town would behave. It proves nothing. Every tourist travels differently. Some people enjoy guided tours. Some people just want to walk around. Some stay in the main safe tourist zone. Others want to explore the less touristy areas. Some like those open top tour buses. Some prefer to hire a car and drive themselves. Others are happy to place themselves in the hands of a friendly local tour guide. Dewani did the latter.

Like many people, you appear to have made up your mind early on that this was a planned hit, and you have bought into the salacious media narrative, choosing to ignore everything that doesn't fit with that.

Put your 3 "points" to the side for a minute, and instead think about the allegations against Dewani and the credibility of those making the allegations, as well as the veracity of the allegations themselves. Why did Tongo, Mbolombo and Qwabe tell so many lies when testifying? Their freedom and their plea deals were contingent on one simple thing: telling the truth. Why couldn't they do that? Why did they fabricate calls and texts that even the prosecution admits did not exist? Why did Tongo and Mbolombo lie and contradict each other when asked to identify the fifth conspirator referred to in the taped phone call?

Have a read of this article which examines it in more detail: "Did Shrien Dewani get away with murder?" (https://dewanifacts.wordpress.com/2015/07/20/did-shrien-dewani-get-away-with-murder/)

I've flown in and out of Cape Town Airport dozens of times and the licensed taxi drivers have ID and are allowed inside the airport:  you have to walk through them - assuming you don't want to take the dedicated hotel shuttle bus - and out of the airport, where security guards do indeed move-on the malingerers and unlicensed drivers - and down the road to find yourself a bloke with an ordinary car who will drive you for less cash.  Why a millionaire staying in a 5 Star hotel with an airport shuttle bus needs to save himself a tenner I don't know.

I can say what a tourist would do because I actually lived on the Waterfront and in the CBD and watched them doing it.  Thanks to SA's reputation most tourists are terrified of their security even within the highly secured 'tourist' areas.  I can also state that I have never encountered anyone who ever visited a township.  I've driven through townships, but then I mostly encountered non-white South Africans in my life there and drove over virtually every road in the country - a lone female in a high end car without ever encountering trouble.

It's interesting that you should mention hijackings being for the money:  most tourists who are hijacked are driving themselves in a hire car, not in a taxi.  Why on earth would a couple who want to see a township have much money on them?  What would they need, maybe £30 tops?  Drinks suddenly very expensive out in the pubs of people who live in houses made of plastic bags and flattened coke cans, are they? And I notice you completely ignore the preposterous idea that anyone could exit a moving car window head first without depositing their head right in front of the moving rear wheel, or why at that point the hijackers wouldn't at that point just shoot him dead:  I bet he didn't even lose his watch, did he?

I formulated this opinion immediately on hearing the news of the hijacking, days before anyone suggested it was murder:  it's elements were all too fantastical.  Of course the humdinger was why a newly married man do this?  The fact it came out that he wouldn't sleep with her and then had seen a gay escort all made the 'why' fall into place.  I think it was a massive politically correct error of the judge not to allow the escort's testimony:  it was not about him 'being gay' - it was about his family not knowing that fact and him trying to cover it up. 

There is no ambiguity about this case.  I agree the plea bargaining besmirched the SA justice system, but you are fishing around for a legal technicality that lets him off the hook, just like the Sion Jenkins case.  Dewani tried to construct a story based on what he thought was 'normal' in South Africa - but it contains an insane number of elements which completely fly in the face of 'normal' or even 'likely' or, in the case of getting out of the moving car even 'possible'.

But most interesting is the fact that he got off - what a tonic that was for his mental health - yet apparently people still feel the need to 'clear' his name on a site about miscarriages of justice. 
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 09, 2015, 11:37:22 AM
"He said that, held at gunpoint, the couple were driven around the township, being told by the kidnappers: "We are not going to hurt you. We just want the car." (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3229738/Hubby-tells-of-bride-Anni-Dewanis-murder.html)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Anni_Dewani

For the benefit of people in the UK this is roughly analogous to booking to stay at the Savoy for your honeymoon but not walking over the road to wander around the bars and buskers of Covent Garden, nor walk round the corner to the river and across the millennium bridge to the London eye, nor walk half a minute to Trafalgar Square and all its art galleries nor walk 3 minutes to see a West End show, but instead decide the first thing you'd like to do is hire an Uber taxi to take you round some closed shops in Lewisham followed by a tour of Elephant And Castle so you can see 'the real London'.  Except both those places are close to central London whereas the Dewanis went on the equivalent of a trip to Brighton.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 09, 2015, 11:41:06 AM
But like you say Dewanifacts:  how can I possibly say what tourists 'normally' do when visiting London!? @)(++(*
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 09, 2015, 11:57:06 AM
Are you going to try to explain why Tongo, Qwabe and Mbolombo told a pack of lies while testifying?
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 09, 2015, 12:01:50 PM
1). It stood out as mile as a murder from the nanosecond it hit the news.  I lived in South Africa for nearly a decade:  family annihilators, hijackings, murders - they are a daily occurance in the news.  In that context it stood out like a saw thumb that the woman had died but the man survived:  that simply never happens

I'm afraid this a very justice4anni style argument you are attempting to make. The only reason you don't know about all the carjackings where occupants walk away unharmed, is because there are so goddamn many of them, that they don't even make the news in SA! Just take a look at the crime stats - https://africacheck.org/factsheets/factsheet-south-africas-official-crime-statistics-for-201314/

Over 100,000 aggravated robberies per year. Sure - lots involve murder, but the vast majority don't. People walk away unhurt all the time. It never even makes the news, and then people like you erroneously conclude that "it simply never happens".
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 09, 2015, 12:05:49 PM
And I notice you completely ignore the preposterous idea that anyone could exit a moving car window head first without depositing their head right in front of the moving rear wheel, or why at that point the hijackers wouldn't at that point just shoot him dead:  I bet he didn't even lose his watch, did he?

Apologies. Overlooked that part of your lengthy post.

Item Credible (9) on our site (link below) deals with this issue and we concur with you that Shrien Dewani's version of how he exited the vehicle, is likely inaccurate.

https://dewanifacts.wordpress.com/credible/

As for losing his watch; it was stolen from him by the hijackers. You're welcome.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: John on August 09, 2015, 12:12:49 PM
I must say Passer-by, your knowledge of SA and the perils therein is amazing, what an interesting post.  I wish you had been with us when the trial was being aired for all the world to see.

There are several issues about this case which bother me, one is the conversation Anni had with her sister the evening she died in which she said she had discovered something very disturbing but would wait until her return to Bristol before sharing it.

A sign that not all was as it appeared were events prior to the wedding when Anni threatened to call it off.  Has any more been revealed by the family as to what the problem was?
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 09, 2015, 12:38:06 PM
I'm afraid this a very justice4anni style argument you are attempting to make. The only reason you don't know about all the carjackings where occupants walk away unharmed, is because there are so goddamn many of them, that they don't even make the news in SA! Just take a look at the crime stats - https://africacheck.org/factsheets/factsheet-south-africas-official-crime-statistics-for-201314/

Over 100,000 aggravated robberies per year. Sure - lots involve murder, but the vast majority don't. People walk away unhurt all the time. It never even makes the news, and then people like you erroneously conclude that "it simply never happens".

Completely untrue:  I said it never happens that the woman is killed and the man walks away.. Absolutely literally in this case:  not even a slight bruise on him.  What a hero.

I have no idea what your Justice4Anni thing is about:  I have never before posted anything on the internet about this before this thread and neither have I spent any time dicking about with campaign groups online.  That's why I can't get my head around yours.  You reckon he's innocent yet you're still trying to prove that after the case was thrown out?!
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 09, 2015, 12:39:03 PM

I formulated this opinion immediately on hearing the news of the hijacking, days before anyone suggested it was murder:  it's elements were all too fantastical.  Of course the humdinger was why a newly married man do this?  The fact it came out that he wouldn't sleep with her and then had seen a gay escort all made the 'why' fall into place.  I think it was a massive politically correct error of the judge not to allow the escort's testimony:  it was not about him 'being gay' - it was about his family not knowing that fact and him trying to cover it up. 


Yes this is why most people formed the opinion he was guilty. We did too. It all seemed to fit, and handing an envelope in the communications room to the taxi driver, seemed to confirm everything. Yet it turned out that the entire hitman story was made up. Just shows how wrong intuition can sometimes be.

As for your last line. A bi/gay man wants to cover up his sexuality from his family. So what does he do? He arranges a crime so heinous and so sensational (not to mention risky) that should it succeed, it would gain the attention of the entire world and shine the spotlight on him while police and everyone else investigate his private life with a fine tooth comb.

Not much of a strategy for someone wishing to keep their private life a secret, eh?

Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 09, 2015, 12:41:37 PM
Completely untrue:  I said it never happens that the woman is killed and the man walks away.. Absolutely literally in this case:  not even a slight bruise on him.  What a hero.

I have no idea what your Justice4Anni thing is about:  I have never before posted anything on the internet about this before this thread and neither have I spent any time dicking about with campaign groups online.  That's why I can't get my head around yours.  You reckon he's innocent yet you're still trying to prove that after the case was thrown out?!

We aren't trying to prove anything. We know he's innocent. We want true justice for Anni; plea deals for Qwabe and Tongo rescinded, and Mbolombo prosecuted. That is our aim.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 09, 2015, 12:47:33 PM
Completely untrue:  I said it never happens that the woman is killed and the man walks away.


Can you substantiate this claim with any evidence? Or is it just something that everyone should believe because you say so?
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 09, 2015, 12:54:04 PM
Are you going to try to explain why Tongo, Qwabe and Mbolombo told a pack of lies while testifying?

Much as I loved the warmth of the many different kinds of people in South Africa I have to attest, alas, that the whole lot of them - every creed, every colour - have a tendency towards dishonesty.  As everyone says "Welcome To Africa!".  It was extremely trying to conduct business there:  if it's not nailed down, someone nicks it, every si le receipt has to be checked and scrutinised and most people are trying to leverage their position.  People in South Africa would rip you off soon as look at you, I'd be here tapping away all week even by mu standards if I tried to write you a list - no, it would be impossible.  There reaches a crunch moment when you start to think 'sod it:  why shouldn't I?' - that's a when its a good time to leave.  Most South Africans don't have that choice.  I'm sure the others said whatever it came into their heads at that moment which they thought might work:  it's their survival instinct and it doesn't change my opinion in the least.

Are you going to try to explain how he got head first out of the moving car?  I noticed when his brother tried to ren-act it he didn't risk doing it in a car that was moving.  Now there's a wasted YouTube opportunity.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 09, 2015, 01:07:29 PM
Can you substantiate this claim with any evidence? Or is it just something that everyone should believe because you say so?

Still avoiding explaining that exciting exit from a moving car Dewanifacts?  I tell you what, I'll waste loads of time looking up statistics whilst you upload a video of yourself climbing out of a rear car passenger window of a moving carload of men who don't want you to escape and who all have guns.

I'll be generous and even let you off trying to defend the defenceless girl you're going to be leaving with them.  Though you're probably right if you're thinking she was actually safer staying in the car than climbing out the window.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 09, 2015, 01:12:49 PM
  I'm sure the others said whatever it came into their heads at that moment which they thought might work:  it's their survival instinct and it doesn't change my opinion in the least.

You're either dodging or misunderstanding the question. When giving evidence (in exchange for their plea deals) Tongo, Mbolombo and Qwabe didn't need to make anything "work". They simply had to tell the truth about a man ordering a hit on his wife. They invented evidence to incriminate him. They refused to answer questions. They lied to cover for a fifth conspirator.

Why would they do any of that rather than simply relating the truth and nothing but the truth?

Answer: because they weren't telling a truthful story. It was made up.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 09, 2015, 01:21:39 PM
Oh look:  even his Law-Graduate brother doesn't actually try to do the entire forward-roll on the stationary car in case he hurts his head.  Just look at it:  to get his legs out he would tip over forwards and his head would go under the rear wheel.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2861889/Shrien-Dewani-s-brother-leads-dramatic-reconstruction-taxi-Anni-killed.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2861889/Shrien-Dewani-s-brother-leads-dramatic-reconstruction-taxi-Anni-killed.html)
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 09, 2015, 01:30:46 PM
You're either dodging or misunderstanding the question. When giving evidence (in exchange for their plea deals) Tongo, Mbolombo and Qwabe didn't need to make anything "work". They simply had to tell the truth about a man ordering a hit on his wife. They invented evidence to incriminate him. They refused to answer questions. They lied to cover for a fifth conspirator.

Why would they do any of that rather than simply relating the truth and nothing but the truth?

Answer: because they weren't telling a truthful story. It was made up.

It was almost certainly arranged by a much higher level criminal who could still reach them in prison:  South African prisons are notoriously dangerous with different gangs like the infamous Numbers Gang and I'm sure they had family who could be got at too.  Isn't this blindingly obvious?  They were clearly very uneducated as is very common of people their age and background in South Africa.  For pitysakes, you've highlighted MY point about the likelihood of Dewani just happening to pick THIS unlicensed taxi.  There's some sort of inbuilt prejudice that 'all black people in South Africa are murderers, what bad luck!'  I'm afraid it doesn't work like that.

It's a lovely day and I'm going outside before I start googling up his links to another *hijacking* in South Africa where the car wasn't stolen and the victim was shot with a single bullet.

Oh rats.  I did.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/southafrica/11221313/Shrien-Dewani-boasted-about-organising-previous-South-African-hit.html
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 09, 2015, 01:36:57 PM
Yes this is why most people formed the opinion he was guilty. We did too. It all seemed to fit, and handing an envelope in the communications room to the taxi driver, seemed to confirm everything. Yet it turned out that the entire hitman story was made up. Just shows how wrong intuition can sometimes be.

As for your last line. A bi/gay man wants to cover up his sexuality from his family. So what does he do? He arranges a crime so heinous and so sensational (not to mention risky) that should it succeed, it would gain the attention of the entire world and shine the spotlight on him while police and everyone else investigate his private life with a fine tooth comb.

Not much of a strategy for someone wishing to keep their private life a secret, eh?

Yeah, the idea was everyone would just go with "ooh South Africa is SUCH a dangerous country".  Naughty murderous black people, poor grieving widow can't possibly ever remarry.  Still gets a share of the family business.

OBVIOUSLY if he'd known how it would pan out he wouldn't have done it like that.  And the reason it didn't pan out was everyone in South Africa immediately said "woah:  that doesn't sound right!".  Just like it didn't sound right that Pistorius would think a burglar was climbing through his toilet window when he lived in one of the most secure private estates in the country, with perimeter security, controlled access and an armed response unit.

This is the whole point:  we see what is masquerading as normal but clearly isn't.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Angelo222 on August 09, 2015, 02:13:12 PM
Yeah, the idea was everyone would just go with "ooh South Africa is SUCH a dangerous country".  Naughty murderous black people, poor grieving widow can't possibly ever remarry.  Still gets a share of the family business.

OBVIOUSLY if he'd known how it would pan out he wouldn't have done it like that.  And the reason it didn't pan out was everyone in South Africa immediately said "woah:  that doesn't sound right!".  Just like it didn't sound right that Pistorius would think a burglar was climbing through his toilet window when he lived in one of the most secure private estates in the country, with perimeter security, controlled access and an armed response unit.

This is the whole point:  we see what is masquerading as normal but clearly isn't.

I agree, hijackings, robberies and murders are so common in the townships, yet another one would not be noticed... but it was!

Has it ever been explained why Shrien Dewani had a liaison with one of the killers in the hotel a short time before the fateful excursion or what was in the bag which exchanged hands?

The Dewani family nursing home empire is cloaked in secrecy hidden as it is under the cover of an offshore arrangement based in Guernsey.  How does this fit into the greater scheme of things?  Any takers??
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 09, 2015, 08:46:38 PM
Still avoiding explaining that exciting exit from a moving car Dewanifacts? 

I could as well explain Dewani's exit from the vehicle as I could explain what you had for breakfast this morning. I was not there in that car. I cannot possibly know how he came to exit the vehicle, whether it was moving, whether he went out the door, the window, whether he was pushed, pulled or rolled out. 

Here's what I can tell you. I have worked with victims of crime. When people are involved in traumatic incidents, they often cannot recall precise details; their recollection of timings and exact sequences are often wrong and they often describe things that we know did not actually occur. 

What does this mean with regard to this case? Dewani's recollection of how he exited the vehicle is quite likely inaccurate. Does this have any bearing on whether he arranged the murder of his wife? None whatsoever.

I'll help you out, Passer by. This issue and many other sensational and irrelevant issues (such as the Dr Pox murder link) have been thrashed to death in internet forums discussing this case. If you take a look at the front page of our site (https://dewanifacts.wordpress.com/), you will see that every one of these claims have been addressed. 

Whilst we could sit and debate these points again, we don't intend to as its old ground. Our position was vindicated when Dewani was exonerated and cleared of any involvement. We don't need to prove anything to anyone.

Our ultimate goal is to achieve true justice for Anni. Our aim in sharing our page with this forum was to get feedback on whether people think that the content on our site needs to be revised in any way - additions/deletions/amendments/recatagorisation of claims - and if those suggestions can be substantiated with evidence, then we will make the changes. We want our site to be as accurate as possible. 

We welcome all feedback, however we have  to stress that feedback in the form of baseless speculation and subjective hypothesising about Shrien Dewani's behaviour, is unlikely to achieve much.

Despite not wishing to get drawn in to neverending debate on rehashed old topics, we are willing to answer any questions put to us, on any aspect of the case. 




 
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 10, 2015, 08:53:37 AM
New blog post up this morning. It examines the 2012 trial of one of the hijackers - Xolile Mngeni.

https://dewanifacts.wordpress.com/2015/08/10/the-trial-of-xolile-mngeni-a-cesspit-of-controversy/

Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 10, 2015, 11:47:59 AM
I could as well explain Dewani's exit from the vehicle as I could explain what you had for breakfast this morning. I was not there in that car. I cannot possibly know how he came to exit the vehicle, whether it was moving, whether he went out the door, the window, whether he was pushed, pulled or rolled out. 

Here's what I can tell you. I have worked with victims of crime. When people are involved in traumatic incidents, they often cannot recall precise details; their recollection of timings and exact sequences are often wrong and they often describe things that we know did not actually occur. 

What does this mean with regard to this case? Dewani's recollection of how he exited the vehicle is quite likely inaccurate. Does this have any bearing on whether he arranged the murder of his wife? None whatsoever.

I'll help you out, Passer by. This issue and many other sensational and irrelevant issues (such as the Dr Pox murder link) have been thrashed to death in internet forums discussing this case. If you take a look at the front page of our site (https://dewanifacts.wordpress.com/), you will see that every one of these claims have been addressed. 

Whilst we could sit and debate these points again, we don't intend to as its old ground. Our position was vindicated when Dewani was exonerated and cleared of any involvement. We don't need to prove anything to anyone.

Our ultimate goal is to achieve true justice for Anni. Our aim in sharing our page with this forum was to get feedback on whether people think that the content on our site needs to be revised in any way - additions/deletions/amendments/recatagorisation of claims - and if those suggestions can be substantiated with evidence, then we will make the changes. We want our site to be as accurate as possible. 

We welcome all feedback, however we have  to stress that feedback in the form of baseless speculation and subjective hypothesising about Shrien Dewani's behaviour, is unlikely to achieve much.

Despite not wishing to get drawn in to neverending debate on rehashed old topics, we are willing to answer any questions put to us, on any aspect of the case.

You can't explain how he got out of the moving car window (it had to the window, didn't it - because they'd fitted the child locks to prevent Anni from escaping) because he couldnt have without serious injury or death.  It cannot be explained because it is not possible.

It's a bit wet to come on here to try to argue your 'facts' and then say they've all be thrashed to bits elsewhere in the Internet and it's too boring to go over them again here - why come here then?

So to sum up, you are willing to to answer any questions on any aspect of the case except the awkward ones you can't answer.

Meanwhile, I still can't understand why you are posting at all on a Miscarriage of Justice Forum when the guy got off..
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 10, 2015, 11:58:31 AM
I must say Passer-by, your knowledge of SA and the perils therein is amazing, what an interesting post.  I wish you had been with us when the trial was being aired for all the world to see.

There are several issues about this case which bother me, one is the conversation Anni had with her sister the evening she died in which she said she had discovered something very disturbing but would wait until her return to Bristol before sharing it.

A sign that not all was as it appeared were events prior to the wedding when Anni threatened to call it off.  Has any more been revealed by the family as to what the problem was?

Thank you John.  I'm afraid you get innured to murder stories just as you get innured to poverty when living in RSA:  I can only relate to the cases where I have parallel knowledge or experience to compare it with, when it doesn't fit with what I experienced as normal.  I'd bracket this with the Alps murdered family (which I also lived not far from), where you immediately think "what the heck were they doing there?"
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Angelo222 on August 10, 2015, 12:14:34 PM
I could as well explain Dewani's exit from the vehicle as I could explain what you had for breakfast this morning. I was not there in that car. I cannot possibly know how he came to exit the vehicle, whether it was moving, whether he went out the door, the window, whether he was pushed, pulled or rolled out. 

All the more reason why Dewani should have had the opportunity to testify.  A sad indictment of what passes for justice in SA these days.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 10, 2015, 12:17:16 PM
You can't explain how he got out of the moving car window (it had to the window, didn't it - because they'd fitted the child locks to prevent Anni from escaping) because he couldnt have without serious injury or death.  It cannot be explained because it is not possible.

The car may well have been stationary when Dewani exited. One of the hijackers may well have alighted, opened Dewani's door from the outside, dragged him out, and driven off.

Meanwhile, I still can't understand why you are posting at all on a Miscarriage of Justice Forum when the guy got off..

You appear to have difficulty reading and also appear to have a very narrow view of what constitutes a miscarriage of justice. The miscarriage of justice has nothing to do with Dewani getting off. The miscarriages of justice in this case are:

1. Monde Mbolombo still being a free man, despite admitting perjury in Mngeni's trial, being caught perjuring in Dewani's trial, and most importantly admitting to playing a pivotal role in coordinating the disasterous armed robbery that took Anni's life. Mbolombo needs to be prosecuted and punished severely for his role in this heinous crime.

2. Zola Tongo & Mziwamadoda Qwabe benefitting from reduced sentences (Tongo will be eligible for release in 4 years time!), despite having both been caught perjuring themselves multiple times. Perjury is a serious crime in every jurisdiction. They should be prosecuted and their plea deals should be rescinded.

3. Xolile Mngeni was falsely convicted of being the shooter. Forensics evidence proved conclusively that he wasn't. He deserved to die in jail, however his conviction was still a miscarriage of justice because it was erroneous, and based on false testimony and flawed forensics. This is detailed in our latest blog post.


The very fact that none of these miscarriages of justice even crossed your mind, demonstrate your lynchmob mindset and psyche.

Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Angelo222 on August 10, 2015, 12:22:25 PM
Our position was vindicated when Dewani was exonerated and cleared of any involvement. We don't need to prove anything to anyone.

That's the point though isn't it, the judge stopped the trial before it could explore the truth.

As far as cleared is concerned, the jury of public opinion is still out on that one.

Dewani might be a cheat, a fraud, a liar and many other things but conspiracy to murder has still to be proven.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 10, 2015, 12:23:16 PM
  I said it never happens that the woman is killed and the man walks away.

Are you able to substantiate this statement with any evidence? Or should readers believe it simply because you say it is so? 
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Angelo222 on August 10, 2015, 12:28:26 PM
The car may well have been stationary when Dewani exited. One of the hijackers may well have alighted, opened Dewani's door from the outside, dragged him out, and driven off.

What?  Leaving a witness behind who could identify them?
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 10, 2015, 12:33:43 PM
Yes. As happens in tens of thousands of other violent robberies every year. Have a look at SA crime statistics.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Angelo222 on August 10, 2015, 12:50:44 PM
You state that your ultimate aim is justice for Anni but you fail to criticise Shrien Dewani for his part in what happened to her. 

Dewani entered into a marriage on the basis of a lie.  Is that not a Dewani Fact?

Dewani faked mental illness in an attempt to avoid having to face a trial in South Africa and as soon as the case collapsed against him he made a miraculous recovery.  Is that not another Dewani Fact?
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 10, 2015, 01:20:58 PM
I concur. Dewani was definitely guilty of being an unfaithful husband and boyfriend and entered into the marriage on the basis that he was faithful to Anni, which turned out to be untrue.

Dewani is guilty of lots of unsavoury actions. For example, he pretended to be a travel agent to obtain discounts. All of these issues are highlighted on our site. You should check it out.
 
In the main though, we do not seek to "criticise" Shrien Dewani or anyone else for adultery. That is not a legal issue. It's a moral one and an area we aim to acknowledge, but not delve deeply into, because it simply distracts from the facts that pertain to the murder of Anni Dewani.


Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Angelo222 on August 10, 2015, 01:28:24 PM
Does Dewani Facts know who is the beneficial owner of PK Holdings Limited, a Guernsey registered Company which owns the Dewani family business PSP Group Ltd previously known as PSP Healthcare Ltd?
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Angelo222 on August 10, 2015, 01:34:24 PM
I concur. Dewani was definitely guilty of being an unfaithful husband and boyfriend and entered into the marriage on the basis that he was faithful to Anni, which turned out to be untrue.

Dewani is guilty of lots of unsavoury actions. For example, he pretended to be a travel agent to obtain discounts. All of these issues are highlighted on our site. You should check it out.
 
In the main though, we do not seek to "criticise" Shrien Dewani or anyone else for adultery. That is not a legal issue. It's a moral one and an area we aim to acknowledge, but not delve deeply into, because it simply distracts from the facts that pertain to the murder of Anni Dewani.

Thank you for that honest reply.  I too want justice for Anni Hindocha but while Shrien Dewani refuses to answer the awkward questions and give a full account of himself and his activities I fail to see how that can happen.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 10, 2015, 01:40:08 PM
Dewani faked mental illness in an attempt to avoid having to face a trial in South Africa and as soon as the case collapsed against him he made a miraculous recovery.  Is that not another Dewani Fact?

Again, this is highlighted on our site.  No evidence was ever put forward to suggest that he was faking the mental illness. That is just nasty speculative slander with no basis or substantiation.

Dewani's mental illness was a product of three factors. Anni's murder, the exposure of his embarrasing gay liasons and adultery, and the malicious prosecution that sought to convict him of being involved in the murder.

We can only surmise that once he was exonerated of any involvement in the murder, he was able to move on with the healing process. It makes sense, does it not?
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Angelo222 on August 10, 2015, 01:53:33 PM
Again, this is highlighted on our site.  No evidence was ever put forward to suggest that he was faking the mental illness. That is just nasty speculative slander with no basis or substantiation.

Dewani's mental illness was a product of three factors. Anni's murder, the exposure of his embarrasing gay liasons and adultery, and the malicious prosecution that sought to convict him of being involved in the murder.

We can only surmise that once he was exonerated of any involvement in the murder, he was able to move on with the healing process. It makes sense, does it not?

Another Dewani Fact. What his extradition from the UK did expose was medical professionals who could be bought.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 10, 2015, 02:04:06 PM
Thank you for that honest reply.  I too want justice for Anni Hindocha but while Shrien Dewani refuses to answer the awkward questions and give a full account of himself and his activities I fail to see how that can happen.

If you took the time to read the Dewani Judgment (http://www.saflii.org/za/cases/ZAWCHC/2014/188.html), you would see that the answers do not lie with Shrien Dewani. There was no evidence of him being involved and a stockpile of evidence to show that the hitman story was made up by the criminals.

The answers to the remaining mysteries lie with the other conspirators. Three people were in that car when Anni died. Anni was shot. Mngeni died in prison. Qwabe is the only living person that knows the precise details of how and why Anni came to be shot, and he already admitted in his initial confession (which was corroborated by Mngeni) that she was shot because she was screaming so loudly and would not stop....

The one answer that remains with Dewani, is the explanation for why he didn't mention the helicopter or the R10,000 when first debriefed by the police. We would very much like to hear him explain that one. 
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 10, 2015, 02:23:54 PM
Another Dewani Fact. What his extradition from the UK did expose was medical professionals who could be bought.

The fact that Dewani could return to SA so soon after his alleged traumatic experience at the hands of ruthless hijackers just goes to prove my point.

If you can provide evidence to substantiate your assertion that medical professionals were "bought" in the Dewani case, then we will be happy to add it to our site.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 10, 2015, 02:49:36 PM
Angelo222 - why are you editing my posts and removing my comments?

My previous post said: Regarding your last paragraph, I think you are misinformed. Shrien Dewani has not returned to South Africa since his exoneration.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Angelo222 on August 10, 2015, 02:54:22 PM
Angelo222 - why are you editing my posts and removing my comments?

My previous post said: Regarding your last paragraph, I think you are misinformed. Shrien Dewani has not returned to South Africa since his exoneration.

That's correct, I edited out the erroneous comment, I should have posted that he returned to Nairobi, Kenya, where his fathers relations still live.  We don't want to be accused of generating myths.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 10, 2015, 03:02:26 PM
The car may well have been stationary when Dewani exited. One of the hijackers may well have alighted, opened Dewani's door from the outside, dragged him out, and driven off.

You appear to have difficulty reading and also appear to have a very narrow view of what constitutes a miscarriage of justice. The miscarriage of justice has nothing to do with Dewani getting off. The miscarriages of justice in this case are:

1. Monde Mbolombo still being a free man, despite admitting perjury in Mngeni's trial, being caught perjuring in Dewani's trial, and most importantly admitting to playing a pivotal role in coordinating the disasterous armed robbery that took Anni's life. Mbolombo needs to be prosecuted and punished severely for his role in this heinous crime.

2. Zola Tongo & Mziwamadoda Qwabe benefitting from reduced sentences (Tongo will be eligible for release in 4 years time!), despite having both been caught perjuring themselves multiple times. Perjury is a serious crime in every jurisdiction. They should be prosecuted and their plea deals should be rescinded.

3. Xolile Mngeni was falsely convicted of being the shooter. Forensics evidence proved conclusively that he wasn't. He deserved to die in jail, however his conviction was still a miscarriage of justice because it was erroneous, and based on false testimony and flawed forensics. This is detailed in our latest blog post.


The very fact that none of these miscarriages of justice even crossed your mind, demonstrate your lynchmob mindset and psyche.

So why are you calling it 'Dewani Facts' and not some snappy little title like 'Jail The Caoe Town Three' or 'MbolomboFacts'?

Another thing I can tell you from a nearly a decade in South Africa is the police are under-resourced, under-trained, up against a hell of a lot of criminals, some of whom are actually in the police.  Injustice is one of the main themes of the entire continent:  what makes you suddenly give a tinkers about this particular trio when crime is endemic and most people - right through to the top - get off?

Why don't you start at the top and campaign against Bob Mugabe?  He's a seriously nasty bit of work whose criminality has negatively affected the whole continent?
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 10, 2015, 03:05:30 PM
That's correct, I edited out the erroneous comment, I should have posted that he returned to Nairobi, Kenya, where his fathers relations still live.  We don't want to be accused of generating myths.

Yes, well next time please feel free to edit your own comment and simply admit that you made a false assertion and stand corrected. No need to edit other peoples' posts for them.

Given your other posts on this topic, the irony of your last sentence is quite breathtaking.  8@??)(

"We don't want to be accused of generating myths"

Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Angelo222 on August 10, 2015, 03:09:46 PM
Yes, well next time please feel free to edit your own comment and simply admit that you made a false assertion and stand corrected. No need to edit other peoples' posts for them.

Given your other posts on this topic, the irony of your last sentence is quite breathtaking.  8@??)(

"We don't want to be accused of generating myths"

Which post do you consider to be a myth?

I note you have no response to the tax avoidance scam used by the Dewanis to shield beneficial ownership of the family business from the UK tax authorities?  Does this not fall within the bounds of Dewani Facts??
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 10, 2015, 03:13:21 PM
  what makes you suddenly give a tinkers about this particular trio?

Took an interest in the case. Read the "About this site" page on our website. Its explained there.  I could just as well ask you to explain why you chose to respond to this thread and not others. I'd surmise that your answer would be similar to mine. You took an interest.

Why don't you start at the top and campaign against Bob Mugabe?  He's a seriously nasty bit of work whose criminality has negatively affected the whole continent?

Agreed Mugabe is the pits. Haven't got the time, intellect or inclination to tackle a problem so large. We're a small team of 3, all of whom have full lives and many other interests.

Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 10, 2015, 03:19:23 PM
Does Dewani Facts know who is the beneficial owner of PK Holdings Limited, a Guernsey registered Company which owns the Dewani family business PSP Group Ltd previously known as PSP Healthcare Ltd?

No. Aside from knowing that the Dewanis own an aged care facility named PSP (Preyen Shrien Preyal - the names of the three children), I personally have no other knowledge of their business dealings. Has never been of much interest. Don't see any relevance to the case.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 10, 2015, 03:32:02 PM
Which post do you consider to be a myth?

I note you have no response to the tax avoidance scam used by the Dewanis to shield beneficial ownership of the family business from the UK tax authorities?  Does this not fall within the bounds of Dewani Facts??

You have claimed that Dewani lied through his teeth about the car exit, you have claimed that the medical professionals were "bought" and in this very post you have claimed that the Dewani family are running some "tax avoidance scam".

Do you have any evidence to substantiate and verify each of these 3 assertions? For the first two items If you can provide evidence, then we will definitely add them to the site as they are very relevant to the case.

With regard to the last item, I don't understand why the Dewani family's tax affairs would even be relevant? No civil lawsuit is pending. No further criminal case is possible. Why are their business affairs relevant?

As an aside; you might be interested to learn that tax avoidance isn't illegal and it most certainly isn't a scam.  But you're well aware of that aren't you? You definitely aren't prone to generating myths.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 10, 2015, 03:35:55 PM
Took an interest in the case. Read the "About this site" page on our website. Its explained there.  I could just as well ask you to explain why you chose to respond to this thread and not others. I'd surmise that your answer would be similar to mine. You took an interest.

Agreed Mugabe is the pits. Haven't got the time, intellect or inclination to tackle a problem so large. We're a small team of 3, all of whom have full lives and many other interests.

I don't think you've quite grasped the scale of corruption and injustice in Africa for you to have taken an interest in these 3:  they are nothing, and their boss - and whoever paid him - will never be caught. 
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 10, 2015, 03:44:28 PM
That's the point though isn't it, the judge stopped the trial before it could explore the truth.

As far as cleared is concerned, the jury of public opinion is still out on that one.

Dewani might be a cheat, a fraud, a liar and many other things but conspiracy to murder has still to be proven.

Exactly.  Crap police work let the prosecution down.  In a criminal court the prosecution has to prove the case beyond all reasonable doubt.. But in any future civil cases brought by her family, it only has to be proven on the balance of probability - and in that regard Dewani is on very thin ice.  He won't be put away, but he will never have the personal freedom he wanted because his family will never transfer a chunk of business to his name in case it has to be sold for a compensation pay-out.  He's always going to have to go to his mum and dad for cash hand-outs and explain what he needs it for. And he knows respectable people won't touch him with a barge-pole.

One thing I did notice in Africa which is quite gratifying is that what goes around comes around.  It may not be Anni's family that gets redress, but at some time Khama will come back to him in spades.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 10, 2015, 04:14:27 PM
I don't think you've quite grasped the scale of corruption and injustice in Africa for you to have taken an interest in these 3: 

I see. So because Africa has such a huge scale of injustice and corruption, you cannot grasp why anyone might take an interest in any other type of injustice?

Will you be going through each and every thread on this site and informing all participants that they should be redirecting their attentions toward solving Africa's problems?
 


Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Admin on August 10, 2015, 05:49:33 PM
Members must stick to the established facts in this case and refrain from speculation.

Admin
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Angelo222 on August 10, 2015, 05:59:21 PM
You have claimed that Dewani lied through his teeth about the car exit, you have claimed that the medical professionals were "bought" and in this very post you have claimed that the Dewani family are running some "tax avoidance scam".

Do you have any evidence to substantiate and verify each of these 3 assertions? For the first two items If you can provide evidence, then we will definitely add them to the site as they are very relevant to the case.

With regard to the last item, I don't understand why the Dewani family's tax affairs would even be relevant? No civil lawsuit is pending. No further criminal case is possible. Why are their business affairs relevant?

As an aside; you might be interested to learn that tax avoidance isn't illegal and it most certainly isn't a scam.  But you're well aware of that aren't you? You definitely aren't prone to generating myths.

I never mentioned the car exit and he did lie through his teeth to Anni and others, if ever there was an example needed of a man misleading a fiance he was it.

Again, I never mentioned tax avoidance or tax evasion, I merely pointed out that the Dewani family business is ultimately owned by a shelf Company registered in Guernsey which by its nature is shrouded in secrecy.  I will leave others to determine why such an entity is required for a nursing home business based in and operated in England.

It was claimed that Dewani was unfit to travel and unfit to stand trial, probably unfit to plead but we know these claims were all threw out in the end, what does that say for so called professional opinion?

I don't deal in myths dewanifacts, I deal in evidence and the truth.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Angelo222 on August 10, 2015, 06:16:48 PM
I see. So because Africa has such a huge scale of injustice and corruption, you cannot grasp why anyone might take an interest in any other type of injustice?

Will you be going through each and every thread on this site and informing all participants that they should be redirecting their attentions toward solving Africa's problems?
 

Can I ask what interest you have in the Dewanis and the Hindochas which led you to create such a website when you so obviously are intent upon promoting Shrien Dewani as innocent?  Would Justice4Shrien not have been a more appropriate name?
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: John on August 10, 2015, 06:28:08 PM
If you took the time to read the Dewani Judgment (http://www.saflii.org/za/cases/ZAWCHC/2014/188.html), you would see that the answers do not lie with Shrien Dewani. There was no evidence of him being involved and a stockpile of evidence to show that the hitman story was made up by the criminals.

The answers to the remaining mysteries lie with the other conspirators. Three people were in that car when Anni died. Anni was shot. Mngeni died in prison. Qwabe is the only living person that knows the precise details of how and why Anni came to be shot, and he already admitted in his initial confession (which was corroborated by Mngeni) that she was shot because she was screaming so loudly and would not stop....

The one answer that remains with Dewani, is the explanation for why he didn't mention the helicopter or the R10,000 when first debriefed by the police. We would very much like to hear him explain that one.

I don't buy the 'she was shot because she wouldn't stop screaming' claim, there are much simpler ways to deal with someone in such a situation without risking a shot being overheard.  In any event, was it not established that the gun went off accidentally and Anni was unfortunate to have been hit?
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: John on August 10, 2015, 06:35:55 PM
I never mentioned the car exit and he did lie through his teeth to Anni and others, if ever there was an example needed of a man misleading a fiance he was it.

Again, I never mentioned tax avoidance or tax evasion, I merely pointed out that the Dewani family business is ultimately owned by a shelf Company registered in Guernsey which by its nature is shrouded in secrecy.  I will leave others to determine why such an entity is required for a nursing home business based in and operated in England.

It was claimed that Dewani was unfit to travel and unfit to stand trial, probably unfit to plead but we know these claims were all threw out in the end, what does that say for so called professional opinion?

I don't deal in myths dewanifacts, I deal in evidence and the truth.

The PM David Cameron has promised the resources to HM Revenue and Customs so that mystery offshore arrangements can be properly investigated.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Angelo222 on August 10, 2015, 07:07:17 PM
I don't buy the 'she was shot because she wouldn't stop screaming' claim, there are much simpler ways to deal with someone in such a situation without risking a shot being overheard.  In any event, was it not established that the gun went off accidentally and Anni was unfortunate to have been hit?

There are still far too many unknowns in this murder but the passage of time has a wonderful way of revealing things just when you least expect it.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 10, 2015, 07:21:30 PM
Can I ask what interest you have in the Dewanis and the Hindochas which led you to create such a website when you so obviously are intent upon promoting Shrien Dewani as innocent?

Read the "About this site" page on our website. It explains exactly why we created the site.

We want to see true Justice for Anni. That involves the Mbolombo being prosecuted, Tongo and Qwabe's plea deals being rescinded. Hopefully one day, one of them will finally tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so Anni's family can heal.

We really did not intend to get involved in scrappy online debate and will seek to withdraw. Our initial request remains though; if anyone has any suggestions for our site content, based on evidence (not speculation or rumour), then we'd love to hear from you.

Angelo222; you've made a few suggestions and I invited you to substantiate with evidence so we can then add them to our site. We look forward to receiving the same.

Best Regards,

DF
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 10, 2015, 07:24:41 PM
I don't buy the 'she was shot because she wouldn't stop screaming' claim,

You may not buy it, but the claim was made by both of the people who were actually in the car - Mngeni and Qwabe - independantly of each other, in their initial confessions.

Coincidence?
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Admin on August 10, 2015, 07:38:03 PM
We have a strict policy on this forum, post which are deemed argumentative and/or attack another member will be removed on sight.  I will be editing this thread shortly and any posts which fall into that category will be edited or removed.

Admin
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: John on August 10, 2015, 08:02:55 PM
You may not buy it, but the claim was made by both of the people who were actually in the car - Mngeni and Qwabe - independantly of each other, in their initial confessions.

Coincidence?

No more than their claim that it was Shrien Dewani who set it all up.  The truth as usual lies somewhere in the middle.

What we do know however was that Shrien Dewani was leading a secret gay lifestyle unbeknownst to his fiance and that something concerned Anni so much the night she was murdered that she telephoned her parents and sister prior to going out and told her sister that she would reveal all on her return.   Why are these facts not contained within your blog?

Do you think it was just bad luck or coincidence that she never made it home alive?
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: John on August 10, 2015, 08:14:39 PM
The one answer that remains with Dewani, is the explanation for why he didn't mention the helicopter or the R10,000 when first debriefed by the police. We would very much like to hear him explain that one.

So would many people but I fear you will have a long wait.  This was but one reason why the trial should have been allowed to continue.  Simply saying that SAP were incompetent just doesn't cut it.

Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 10, 2015, 08:18:58 PM
No more than their claim that it was Shrien Dewani who set it all up.  The truth as usual lies somewhere in the middle.

What we do know however was that Shrien Dewani was leading a secret gay lifestyle unbeknownst to his fiance and that something concerned Anni so much the night she was murdered that she telephoned her parents and sister prior to going out and told her sister that she would reveal all on her return.

Do you think it was just bad luck or coincidence that she never made it home alive?

Considering we were furnished with irrefutable evidence that the hitman story was fabricated by 3 criminals, then its pretty clear that it was both bad luck and coincidence that Anni was murdered during the course of the robbery.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 10, 2015, 08:20:59 PM
So would many people but I fear you will have a long wait.  This was but one reason why the trial should have been allowed to continue.  Simply saying that SAP were incompetent just doesn't cut it.

His actions in taking the money, were absolutely in keeping with the helicopter ruse that Tongo employed to get Dewani to have a large sum of cash on him when the robbery took place.

The only mystery is why Dewani didn't mention the helicopter plan or the money to the police.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 10, 2015, 08:28:05 PM
What we do know however was that Shrien Dewani was leading a secret gay lifestyle unbeknownst to his fiance and that something concerned Anni so much the night she was murdered that she telephoned her parents and sister prior to going out and told her sister that she would reveal all on her return. 

You have mentioned this phone call at least 3 times now. Would it surprise you if I told you that there was no mention of any concern during that phone call?  All Anni said to her family was "I've got so much to tell you".

It has been speculated upon (surprise surprise) by the media who peddled the salacious hitman story, that it was some catastrophic news, that she'd discovered him cheating, that she'd found his gaydar profile or some such sensational rumour. Its all unsubstantiated. Anni's family have also speculated as to what she might have wanted to tell them, and they have made some comments to suggest that they think it may have been some type of relationship problem but its just educated guesswork. Noone except Anni knew what she meant by those words.

Thanks for reminding us though. We should probably add that to the "baseless claim" section of our website.  8((()*/
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: mercury on August 10, 2015, 08:33:50 PM
DF, what do you think about body language, facial expressions and mannerisms? Complex area I know, but is it worth taking note of in your opinion in forming an opinion of someone's personality/culpability in a crime?
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: John on August 10, 2015, 08:45:51 PM
You have mentioned this phone call at least 3 times now. Would it surprise you if I told you that there was no mention of any concern during that phone call?  All Anni said to her family was "I've got so much to tell you".

It has been speculated upon (surprise surprise) by the media who peddled the salacious hitman story, that it was some catastrophic news, that she'd discovered him cheating, that she'd found his gaydar profile or some such sensational rumour. Its all unsubstantiated. Anni's family have also speculated as to what she might have wanted to tell them, and they have made some comments to suggest that they think it may have been some type of relationship problem but its just educated guesswork. Noone except Anni knew what she meant by those words.

Thanks for reminding us though. We should probably add that to the "baseless claim" section of our website.  8((()*/

I think it's worth reminding you that it was Anni's sister and parents who took the call from her and who relayed what she said that night.  I have corresponded with Ami about this very subject so for you to attempt to down play it now says more about you than it does them.

Anni was disturbed greatly when she telephoned her folks for reassurance so for you to try and pass it off a general holiday chit chat is extremely disingenuous and undermines your and your websites credibility.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 10, 2015, 08:48:17 PM
DF, what do you think about body language, favial expressions and mannerisms? Complex area I know, but is it worth taking note of in your opinion in forming an opinion of someone's personality/culpability in a crime?

I would think that in the hands of qualified professionals, they're all useful tools in determining whether someone is telling the truth, although I'd suggest that they are often subjective and non-conclusive. 
 


Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 10, 2015, 09:02:15 PM
I think it's worth reminding you that it was Anni's sister and parents who took the call from her and who relayed what she said that night.  I have corresponded with Ami about this very subject so for you to attempt to down play it now says more about you than it does them.

Anni was disturbed greatly when she telephoned her folks for reassurance so for you to try and pass it off a general holiday chit chat is extremely disingenuous and undermines your and your websites credibility.

Thanks for the reminder, John. I had forgotten Vinod's comment about her worried tone. You are correct. Anni was upset, but she didn't elaborate any further than saying "I've got so much to tell you".  To guess as to what that may have been, or to try to link that call to her murder is an exercise in speculation.  Speculation tends to take us further from the truth, not closer. We deal in facts.



Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: mercury on August 10, 2015, 09:09:26 PM
I would think that in the hands of qualified professionals, they're all useful tools in determining whether someone is telling the truth, although I'd suggest that they are often subjective and non-conclusive.

So, no layman can ever just "suss" ? and be right?



Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: John on August 10, 2015, 09:16:35 PM
Thanks for the reminder, John. I had forgotten Vinod's comment about her worried tone. You are correct. Anni was upset, but she didn't elaborate any further than saying "I've got so much to tell you".  To guess as to what that may have been, or to try to link that call to her murder is an exercise in speculation.  Speculation tends to take us further from the truth, not closer. We deal in facts.

Why does your site claim twice in the first few paragraphs that Shrien was exonerated when what in actual fact occurred was that the judge was forced to abandon the trial after the prosecution failed to produce evidence of sufficient quality which could sustain a guilty verdict?

The court returned a 'not guilty' verdict in terms of the law then prevailing, that is a technical verdict.  It is not an exoneration of any sort since an exoneration requires evidence to be produced to support it.  The only reason Shrien Dewani walked out of that court a free man was because there was insufficient evidence to convict him and not because he was proven innocent.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 10, 2015, 09:20:21 PM
So, no layman can ever just "suss" ? and be right?

No I wouldn't say that. Intuition can often be correct.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: mercury on August 10, 2015, 09:28:20 PM
No I wouldn't say that. Intuition can often be correct.

Thank you, this is true.

There is a chap in America who is an expert on this but he never discusses ongoing cases. I might just contact him for his opinion now the case is "over"
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 10, 2015, 09:32:21 PM
what in actual fact occurred was that the judge was forced to abandon the trial after the prosecution failed to produce evidence of sufficient quality which could sustain a guilty verdict?

That isn't what occured, John. To suggest that the evidence simply fell short of the requirement for a guilty verdict, is inaccurate. "Beyond reasonable doubt" is a high bar. On that point we agree. However that is not the standard that the judge uses at the close of the prosecution case when an application for dismissal is being considered. At that stage, the bar is much lower. There simply needs to be some credible evidence for the trial to continue.

None existed. There was not a shred of credible evidence linking Dewani to the crime. And there was a stockpile of evidence proving the criminals made up the hitman story to incriminate Dewani, so they could gain leverage and negotiate reduced sentences. Read the judgement. Its all spelled out there.

Here's a dictionary definition of "exonerate". http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/exonerate
 
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: mercury on August 10, 2015, 09:47:28 PM
why hasnt dewani made a documentary telling his side of the story? most victims of heinous crimes do something like that
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 10, 2015, 09:56:37 PM
Would love to know! Wish he would. I'd pay to see that.  8((()*/
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: John on August 10, 2015, 10:02:23 PM
That isn't what occured, John. To suggest that the evidence simply fell short of the requirement for a guilty verdict, is inaccurate. "Beyond reasonable doubt" is a high bar. On that point we agree. However that is not the standard that the judge uses at the close of the prosecution case when an application for dismissal is being considered. At that stage, the bar is much lower. There simply needs to be some credible evidence for the trial to continue.

None existed. There was not a shred of evidence linking Dewani to the crime. And there was a stockpile of evidence proving the criminals made up the hitman story to incriminate Dewani, so they could gain leverage and negotiate reduced sentences. Read the judgement. Its all spelled out there.

Here's a dictionary definition of "exonerate". http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/exonerate

It has been a while since I read the judgement but what is clear is that Tongo's story was convoluted and ultimately highly confused.  There were several areas however which in theory could have tied the alleged conspiracy together and which involved the making of several phone calls.  In the event however, records failed to confirm most of these calls and texts which Tongo claimed Dewani made.

According to Tongo, the Dewanis arrived on the Friday and by that same night a plan had been put into place to kill someone the following night.  I find that rather difficult to believe unless Dewani and Tongo were not strangers but in fact had some prior dealings, there is no evidence to suggest this was the case.

There are limited scenarios in this case.  Did the hijacking occur without Tongos knowledge ie was he an innocent participant?  The answer here is in his plea bargain.  No innocent person will seek a plea bargain which would see them sentenced to 18 years in prison.

So we are left with two possibilities, either Tongo was telling the truth and agreed to set up a hit for a personal fee of 5,000 Rand or about  £250 ( R15,000 or £750 going to the two killers) or Tongo was telling a load of porkies and it was he himself who set it all up as a hijacking/robbery.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 10, 2015, 10:03:36 PM
  It is not an exoneration of any sort since an exoneration requires evidence to be produced to support it.

Which country do you live in? In all English speaking countries there is something called the presumption of innocence. Innocent until proven guilty. It's a cornerstone of the legal system. No accused person ever needs to provide evidence to support their exoneration or in any way "prove" their innocence.  Maybe that happens in Syria or Places like that, but in our legal system that's not how it works.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: John on August 10, 2015, 10:11:11 PM
Which country do you live in? In all English speaking countries there is something called the presumption of innocence. Innocent until proven guilty. It's a cornerstone of the legal system. No accused person ever needs to provide evidence to support their exoneration or in any way "prove" their innocence.  Maybe that happens in Syria or Places like that, but in our legal system that's not how it works.

This is a forum, we are not governed by the Law of England, South Africa or anywhere else for that matter.   We look at the evidence from all sides and we come to a conclusion on that basis.

Maybe we could look at individual elements of this case now that you have got my interest.  How about Tongo, see my post #83 above?
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 10, 2015, 10:25:23 PM
Considering the irrefutable evidence that Tongo and his friends made up the hitman story to incriminate Dewani, then yes, you can safely accept that he is innocent.

It does sound like you could benefit from a refresher in the facts of this case and since you seem sceptical of our credibility, here's the Judgement:

http://www.saflii.org/za/cases/ZAWCHC/2014/188.html

The really interesting part starts at paragraph 23.1.45
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: mercury on August 10, 2015, 10:26:26 PM
Would love to know! Wish he would. I'd pay to see that.  8((()*/

Panorama would do for me

Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: mercury on August 10, 2015, 10:35:35 PM
DF

i have two questions for you

-
a) are you part of a pr agency?
b) do you believe Dewani to be innocent?

Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 10, 2015, 11:02:42 PM
DF

i have two questions for you

-
a) are you part of a pr agency?
b) do you believe Dewani to be innocent?

 No link to a PR agency, no link to the case, and no link to the Dewanis or any friend, family or associate of the Dewanis. I can assure you of that. This is an interest project. Nothing more.

All 3 of us initially believed Dewani to be guilty. When we saw the evidence at trial, we realised he'd been framed.

To us this case is no longer about Shrien Dewani. He had nothing to do with the crime. The answers lie with Qwabe, Tongo, Mbolombo and whoever the fifth conspirator was.

Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: mercury on August 10, 2015, 11:18:29 PM
No link to a PR agency, no link to the case, and no link to the Dewanis or any friend, family or associate of the Dewanis. I can assure you of that. This is an interest project. Nothing more.

All 3 of us initially believed Dewani to be guilty. When we saw the evidence at trial, we realised he'd been framed.

To us this case is no longer about Shrien Dewani. He had nothing to do with the crime. The answers lie with Qwabe, Tongo, Mbolombo and whoever the fifth conspirator was.

So you were totally convinced of his innocence and took up the mantle, laudible, but I wish you luck IF your beliefs are true
It must be a high mountain to climb to achieve the opposite of what alot of people think, ie, well you know
They say there is no smoke without fire, sometimes theres too much smoke, sometimes there is none, this case is NOT of the latter IMO


Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 10, 2015, 11:25:26 PM
So you were totally convinced of his innocence and took up the mantle, laudible, but I wish you luck IF your beliefs are true
It must be a high mountain to climb to achieve the opposite of what alot of people think, ie, well you know

I'm not sure what you mean. We're not trying to convince anyone of anything. The (lack of) evidence with regard to Shrien Dewani's involvement speaks for itself. If you look at the title of this thread and how we entered this thread, you'll see that we didn't ask to discuss Shrien Dewani. We seek justice for Anni and we want our site to be accurate, fact focused and hopefully help to uncover the truth.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Angelo222 on August 10, 2015, 11:46:48 PM
I'm not sure what you mean. We're not trying to convince anyone of anything. The (lack of) evidence with regard to Shrien Dewani's involvement speaks for itself. If you look at the title of this thread and how we entered this thread, you'll see that we didn't ask to discuss Shrien Dewani. We seek justice for Anni and we want our site to be accurate, fact focused and hopefully help to uncover the truth.

The first thing you will have to change on your site is your reference to exonerated.  As already pointed out, the trial was brought to a halt for lack of credible evidence and a not guilty verdict returned in accordance with the law.  A not guilty verdict returned under these circumatances is not an exoneration, you should be more careful how you word things.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: mercury on August 11, 2015, 12:00:43 AM
I'm not sure what you mean. We're not trying to convince anyone of anything. The (lack of) evidence with regard to Shrien Dewani's involvement speaks for itself. If you look at the title of this thread and how we entered this thread, you'll see that we didn't ask to discuss Shrien Dewani. We seek justice for Anni and we want our site to be accurate, fact focused and hopefully help to uncover the truth.

Im sorry  about this but i don't  believe your agenda is justice for Anni, I could be wrong

But also your saying a "lack of evidence" of Dewanis guilt speaks for itself

You should be saying he is innocent BECAUSE
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 11, 2015, 12:42:39 AM
I see. So because Africa has such a huge scale of injustice and corruption, you cannot grasp why anyone might take an interest in any other type of injustice?

Will you be going through each and every thread on this site and informing all participants that they should be redirecting their attentions toward solving Africa's problems?
 

No:  I think it's pretty clear that I'm suggesting you have an undeclared agenda.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 11, 2015, 01:31:26 AM
So would many people but I fear you will have a long wait.  This was but one reason why the trial should have been allowed to continue.  Simply saying that SAP were incompetent just doesn't cut it.

Just to put some perspective on that John:  I went out there not long after Apartheid ended and it was like the Wild West.  My other half wanted me to carry a gun, so I tried out a large selection but decided, given our rows are definitely on the heated side, that I'd prefer to carry a key-ring fob of CS gas instead.  However I would not go to where they went even accompanied by my other half and a mate even if they were armed.  My other half and most of his mates is ex British Special Forces:  no-one in their right mind would enter that area at any time of day or night, you'd be totally out-gunned and out-numbered.

Take as quiz at these crime Stats:
http://www.crimestatssa.com/toptenbyprovince.php?ShowProvince=Western%20Cape (http://www.crimestatssa.com/toptenbyprovince.php?ShowProvince=Western%20Cape)

Now:  Khayeitsha, Mitchell's Plain, Nyanga, Mfeleni, Harare, Elsie's River - these places are one big sprawling mass of poverty and crime:  it's like a Mafia Heartland. 

And Dewani (a) took his wife right through them late at night (b) miraculously escaped and (c) no-one else then robbed him (yes, never underestimate the opportunism of desperation).
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 11, 2015, 02:18:03 AM
The Cape Grace - for several months I lived an apartment right behind it, The Bascule Bar was rather happily my local.  My toddler adored watching the Bascule Bridge open and shut umpteen times a day.

https://www.capegrace.com/# (https://www.capegrace.com/#)

When you step out you're in this:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=a3dkVNwFTzI (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=a3dkVNwFTzI)
(The [Name removed] wheel wasn't there when Anni visited).  The Cape Grace is to the left of the big red Lego man statue at the very end of the clip.

The airport is some way off in Cape Flats:  you have to drive down a rather bleak road between the two across Cape Flats - the view from the window:  each of those cubes made of bits of wood, plastic bags and rubbish houses a family.  Apparently Anni reached her hotel and thought she would like to visit a Township to see the real Africa, that's why she wore high heels and a sparkly cocktail dress . . . ?!

Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 11, 2015, 02:27:23 AM
A photo of Khaylitsha - in the distance you can see Table Mountain:  the safe Tourist area where Anni was staying is on the other side.

And an aerial photo of a small part of the Township.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 11, 2015, 07:58:11 AM
The first thing you will have to change on your site is your reference to exonerated.  As already pointed out, the trial was brought to a halt for lack of credible evidence and a not guilty verdict returned in accordance with the law.  A not guilty verdict returned under these circumatances is not an exoneration, you should be more careful how you word things.

Thank you for the suggestion, Angelo222. For now, we are content to go with the dictionary and legal definition of exoneration. If you can point to some legal sources that explain your contention that this wasn't an exoneration, then we will be happy to revisit and revise our wording.

I think you will struggle to find any such source. The standard of proof for a trial to continue after the prosecution case ends, is extremely low (much lower than the "beyond reasonable doubt" standard that applies at the end of the trial). All that is required at the halfway point is some credible evidence and the trial will continue. That is what happens with most trials. When a trial is stopped because the evidence cannot even meet this low standard, then it is an overwhelmingly clear indication that there is nothing that links the accused to the crime, and thus it is  an indisputable exoneration.

Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 11, 2015, 08:08:21 AM
Im sorry  about this but i don't  believe your agenda is justice for Anni, I could be wrong

But also your saying a "lack of evidence" of Dewanis guilt speaks for itself

You should be saying he is innocent BECAUSE

Hi Mercury,

Don't be sorry. Everyone is entitled to their view. Shrien Dewani's position is obviously linked to achieving justice for Anni. He was her husband and he was accused of being involved in the murder. We clearly cannot ignore him when discussing the case, however he isn't the focus for us, because the evidence made it clear that he wasn't involved. 

If you read our site's content, it should be abundantly clear how we know that he is innocent. I am sure that forum members would not appreciate me cutting and pasting large swathes of content from our site onto here, and I don't intend to type it all out.

Am happy to answer any questions you may have, or to clarify but please do take the time to have a look at our site if you would like to understand our position.

Might I make the comment that a lot of posters in this thread seem to have very strong views on the case, coupled with a very weak grasp on the basic facts and flawed understanding of the legalities. A recipe for disaster some might say! Although I guess this is no surprise when it comes to this case.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 11, 2015, 08:38:00 AM
It has been a while since I read the judgement but what is clear is that Tongo's story was convoluted and ultimately highly confused.  There were several areas however which in theory could have tied the alleged conspiracy together and which involved the making of several phone calls.  In the event however, records failed to confirm most of these calls and texts which Tongo claimed Dewani made.

According to Tongo, the Dewanis arrived on the Friday and by that same night a plan had been put into place to kill someone the following night.  I find that rather difficult to believe unless Dewani and Tongo were not strangers but in fact had some prior dealings, there is no evidence to suggest this was the case.

There are limited scenarios in this case.  Did the hijacking occur without Tongos knowledge ie was he an innocent participant?  The answer here is in his plea bargain.  No innocent person will seek a plea bargain which would see them sentenced to 18 years in prison.

So we are left with two possibilities, either Tongo was telling the truth and agreed to set up a hit for a personal fee of 5,000 Rand or about  £250 ( R15,000 or £750 going to the two killers) or Tongo was telling a load of porkies and it was he himself who set it all up as a hijacking/robbery.

Apologies John for not being able to address this until today.  Its not easy to respond to such a post briefly as you make a number of points. 

Tongo's testimony was not merely convoluted. His version of events contradicted his own statements as well as those of his co-conspirators on almost every material aspect of the case. The only thing that the phone calls and texts proved, was that there was interaction between Tongo and Dewani. Neither Tongo or Dewani disputed that those interactions took place. The only thing that was in dispute was whether those interactions related to organising a helicopter trip or a murder. Paragraphs 20-22 of the Judgement (http://www.saflii.org/za/cases/ZAWCHC/2014/188.html) explain this.

It is natural that there would be some errors and inconsistencies when recalling events from four years prior. Whilst these do raise little flags regarding his reliability as a witness, we are of the belief that these "mistakes" on their own do not prove that Tongo was lying about Dewani's involvement. The proof lies in the deceptive fabrications and perjury, in which Tongo was caught red handed. Apologies but I'm just going to lift a few examples straight from our site rather than typing it again.

TRUE 23:

Both Tongo and Mbolombo were caught fabricating testimony, relating to a phone call and texts that never existed, with the sole purpose of incriminating Shrien Dewani. The gist of their testimony was to make it appear as though Dewani had been chastising them to ensure that his wife would be killed and was in a hurry for it to happen. Paragraphs 23.1.79, and 24.3.37 of the Judgement, detail these fabrications, and the fact that both the prosecution and the defence teams agreed that the call/texts never took place.

TRUE 28:

There was a fifth conspirator in the plot, who was referenced in a taped phone conversation between Tongo and Mbolombo. Both Tongo and Mbolombo refused to name the fifth conspirator in Court. They contradicted each other’s answers and lied to cover this person’s identity. Paragraph 23.1.100 and 23.1.101 of the Judgement explain this point.
 
TRUE 29:

Qwabe refused to explain to the Court, why he drove Anni back into a residential area, when (according to him) he was carrying out a planned execution. Paragraph 24.1.28 of the Judgement, summarises Qwabe’s nonsensical contradictory evidence in this regard.


TRUE 33:

On the night of the fatal robbery, Zola Tongo made two “passes” through Gugulethu, with the Dewanis travelling in his taxi. The hijacking was supposed to occur on the first pass, however it didn’t eventuate because Qwabe and Mngeni failed to get a ride to the agreed location by the agreed time. After stopping for dinner, the hijacking was re-scheduled and took place later in the evening during the second pass through Gugulethu. Tongo admitted, under oath, that he made no attempt to ascertain whether the money was in the car prior to the first pass through Gugulethu, and since the Dewanis sat in the back of the taxi, Tongo knew with 100% certainty that the money could not be in the cubbyhole. This point is of great importance, given Zola Tongo’s claim that an integral part of the plan was for Dewani to leave an “agreed” R15,000 in the car’s cubbyhole (glovebox) for the hijackers. So despite knowing that the key element of his own version, the price of the hit, was not in place he was content to drive to the hijacking spot anyway. This is solid proof that there was no “agreed” sum, and that this was in fact a robbery/kidnapping operation of which Shrien Dewani had absolutely no knowledge. Paragraphs 23.1.71 and 23.1.78 of the Judgement detail this crucial point, and highlight Tongo’s deception.



Those are but a few examples of Tongo's deceptiveness. Read our site or the Judgement if you are interested in having the full arsenal of facts at your disposal.

It is our view (and the judge's view) that the hitman story could not reasonably possibly be true. It doesn't make any sense, its highly improbable on many levels, and the criminals who told that story were caught in so many instances of deception that it became obvious that they made it up to serve their own purposes.

Perhaps you can understand then why we are outraged at Mbolombo being a free man? The NPA have apparently told him that he will never be prosecuted. Does that sound like justice for Anni?
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 11, 2015, 09:08:43 AM
Hi Mercury,

Don't be sorry. Everyone is entitled to their view. Shrien Dewani's position is obviously linked to achieving justice for Anni. He was her husband and he was accused of being involved in the murder. We clearly cannot ignore him when discussing the case, however he isn't the focus for us, because the evidence made it clear that he wasn't involved. 

If you read our site's content, it should be abundantly clear how we know that he is innocent. I am sure that forum members would not appreciate me cutting and pasting large swathes of content from our site onto here, and I don't intend to type it all out.

Am happy to answer any questions you may have, or to clarify but please do take the time to have a look at our site if you would like to understand our position.

Might I make the comment that a lot of posters in this thread seem to have very strong views on the case, coupled with a very weak grasp on the basic facts and flawed understanding of the legalities. A recipe for disaster some might say! Although I guess this is no surprise when it comes to this case.

Mercury I think you have no need to apologise for your suspicions given less than a fortnight after the Dewani family rather bizarrely engaged a man famous for a life-time's career of manipulating both the Truth and the Public - a man now a proven liar languishing in jail for 8 years himself - Max Clifford.

What a strange thing for the Dewanis to do:  pretty much without precedent after a murder.  But I'm sure Dewanifacts' silver tongue can melt your doubts away with the cover-all excuse that, as Oscar Wilde noted, "possibility is infinite".  And let's face it this is turning into a bit of a farce.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1332973/South-African-honeymoon-widower-hires-Max-Clifford-help-clear-name.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1332973/South-African-honeymoon-widower-hires-Max-Clifford-help-clear-name.html)
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 11, 2015, 09:30:21 AM
I'm sure you will be pleased to know that the Dewani family's disasterous dalliance with pedophile PR perp Max Clifford is highlighted on our site. 

Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 11, 2015, 09:56:59 AM
I'm sure you will be pleased to know that the Dewani family's disasterous dalliance with pedophile PR perp Max Clifford is highlighted on our site.

Only briefly in passing, it doesn't mention it being disasterous at all:  actually, as it was him who decided attack was the best means of defence and claimed Dewani was being set up by the SAPS to protect the reputation of South African Tourism.  I think I've made it plain as a pike staff how unlikely it was that they would visit that area as normal tourists - a suspicion immediately held by most South Africans, but it's safe to say that Max Clifford turned the country against him and confirmed the general doubts. 

This event had a very real and serious knock-on effect for local people.  Having visited the real South Africa you will know that the Rand breaks down into 100 cents and the economy has 1 cent coins.  Although these are no longer minted, they remain legal tender and are used at the lower end of the economy:  I'm sure in your quest to not do any of the things normal tourists do you will have walked somewhere without a sidewalk, where ordinary locals go to and from their daily business, and you will have seen ladies sitting in the shade with a small bit of wood across 2 bricks to form a 'stall' with a handful of boiled sweets ranged on the top for workers to buy on their way home - usually for 1 or 2 cents.  They will sit there for hours to sell them.  There are roughly 20 rands to the pound at the moment: 1 cent so worth £0.0005

And here you are with your Twitter Campaign, still trying to screw the livelihoods of all the hardworking decent folk of Cape Town in a country with no State Benefits who are completely dependent on Tourism to try to change the public perception of a slippery proven liar who in any case escape jail..

I don't know why you're bothering:  the man doesn't even want to defend himself - either to his father-in-law or to the public.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 11, 2015, 10:25:47 AM
Cape Grace Hotel:  online form to book an airport transfer - I knew they hadn't got rid of them!

https://www.capegrace.com/#/en/Services/Concierge/4 (https://www.capegrace.com/#/en/Services/Concierge/4)
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 11, 2015, 10:28:23 AM
And as I pointed out on an earlier post, you can book a variety of tours via the Hotel Concierge - this is the case with most hotels in South Africa, not just the poshest ones.

https://www.capegrace.com/#/en/Services/Concierge/1 (https://www.capegrace.com/#/en/Services/Concierge/1)
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Angelo222 on August 11, 2015, 10:36:45 AM
Thank you for the suggestion, Angelo222. For now, we are content to go with the dictionary and legal definition of exoneration. If you can point to some legal sources that explain your contention that this wasn't an exoneration, then we will be happy to revisit and revise our wording.

I think you will struggle to find any such source. The standard of proof for a trial to continue after the prosecution case ends, is extremely low (much lower than the "beyond reasonable doubt" standard that applies at the end of the trial). All that is required at the halfway point is some credible evidence and the trial will continue. That is what happens with most trials. When a trial is stopped because the evidence cannot even meet this low standard, then it is an overwhelmingly clear indication that there is nothing that links the accused to the crime, and thus it is  an indisputable exoneration.

I thought your site was interested in facts and as you keep referring to the judgement of the SA court it should be pointed out that nowhere does it state that Dewani is innocent or has been exonerated.  Your attempt to label him innocent is a massive fail.

Dewani was freed on a technicality, nothing more and nothing less.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Angelo222 on August 11, 2015, 10:40:38 AM
Hi Mercury,

Don't be sorry. Everyone is entitled to their view. Shrien Dewani's position is obviously linked to achieving justice for Anni. He was her husband and he was accused of being involved in the murder. We clearly cannot ignore him when discussing the case, however he isn't the focus for us, because the evidence made it clear that he wasn't involved. 

If you read our site's content, it should be abundantly clear how we know that he is innocent. I am sure that forum members would not appreciate me cutting and pasting large swathes of content from our site onto here, and I don't intend to type it all out.

Am happy to answer any questions you may have, or to clarify but please do take the time to have a look at our site if you would like to understand our position.

Might I make the comment that a lot of posters in this thread seem to have very strong views on the case, coupled with a very weak grasp on the basic facts and flawed understanding of the legalities. A recipe for disaster some might say! Although I guess this is no surprise when it comes to this case.

The only way you could possibly know Dewani is innocent is if you are he or one of the other defendants and since they are either dead, incarcerated or have no interest in defending Anni or Shrien then...

Just for the sake of completeness therefore and for the benefit of readers, Dewani has never been proved innocent which sort of leaves your website dewanifacts somewhat short in the credibility stakes.     @)(++(*
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 11, 2015, 10:43:35 AM
Passer-by, your cape town insights are very interesting and make a good read. Can't see much relevance to the case though. You seem to be intent on avoiding the facts and instead peddling misinformation and speculation.

Only briefly in passing, it doesn't mention it being disasterous at all:  actually, as it was him who decided attack was the best means of defence and claimed Dewani was being set up by the SAPS to protect the reputation of South African Tourism.

Incorrect. It was SA Police Commissioner Bheki Cele who first linked the Dewani murder to the fortunes of SA tourism.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/police-chief-brands-honeymoon-murder-suspect-a-monkey-2155939.html

Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Angelo222 on August 11, 2015, 10:47:01 AM
Passer-by, your cape town insights are very interesting and make a good read. Can't see much relevance to the case though. You seem to be intent on avoiding the facts and instead peddling misinformation and speculation.

Incorrect. It was SA Police Commissioner Bheki Cele who first linked the Dewani murder to the fortunes of SA tourism.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/police-chief-brands-honeymoon-murder-suspect-a-monkey-2155939.html

I find Passer-by's insights into life in Capetown invaluable in accessing the liklihood or otherwise that the murder of Anni Hindocha was a set up.  Who in their right mind would take their new bride dressed up for a night out in her finest garb to a shantytown for a night tour a mere 24 hours after arriving there?

Remind me, what was Dewani's excuse for meeting up with Tongo the taxi driver after the killing of Anni?  What possible excuse could he have for meeting what was effectively a suspect in her slaughter, never mind handing over cash to him??

Another fact which doesn't sit too well is that Tongo had no criminal record, he had worked hard to get a taxi on the road and was working his way up the pecking order.  There is no way he would have allowed a murder to have been carried out in his VW Sharan leaving blood everywhere.  It is my belief that the two thugs who killed Anni were taking her to be killed elsewhere and that she fought with them.  She was shot through the hand and the neck which indicates she put her hand up to protect herself.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 11, 2015, 10:53:23 AM
I thought your site was interested in facts and as you keep referring to the judgement of the SA court it should be pointed out that nowhere does it state that Dewani is innocent or has been exonerated.  Your attempt to label him innocent is a massive fail.

Dewani was freed on a technicality, nothing more and nothing less.

So apart from repeating what you said previously, you're unable to substantiate your claim that he wasn't actually exonerated? I thought so.

No English speaking court in the world can deliver a verdict of "innocent" so your thread of argument is nonsensical. By your rationale, no defendant has ever been exonerated of any crime. 
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Angelo222 on August 11, 2015, 11:01:46 AM
So apart from repeating what you said previously, you're unable to substantiate your claim that he wasn't actually exonerated? I thought so.

No English speaking court in the world can deliver a verdict of "innocent" so your thread of argument is nonsensical. By your rationale, no defendant has ever been exonerated of any crime.

So why are you inventing adjectives on your website which do not refect reality?  Dewani was declared 'not guilty' by way of lack of credible evidence.  Should that evidence surface he cannot be tried again which renders justice for Anni highly unlikely.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 11, 2015, 11:10:49 AM
In a long list of some 120 claims listed on our site, the word "innocent" was used once. It was absolutely accurate but if it comes across as biased then its worth altering. We have now amended that solitary instance. 

Thanks for your contribution, Angelo222.


Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Angelo222 on August 11, 2015, 11:18:47 AM
In a long list of some 120 claims listed on our site, the word "innocent" was used once. It was absolutely accurate but if it comes across as biased then its worth altering. We have now amended that solitary instance. 

Thanks for your contribution, Angelo222.

I am off to work but will be back later to discuss further issues.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 11, 2015, 11:59:26 AM
Passer-by, your cape town insights are very interesting and make a good read. Can't see much relevance to the case though. You seem to be intent on avoiding the facts and instead peddling misinformation and speculation.

Incorrect. It was SA Police Commissioner Bheki Cele who first linked the Dewani murder to the fortunes of SA tourism.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/police-chief-brands-honeymoon-murder-suspect-a-monkey-2155939.html

Oh they're very relevant to the case:  you're part of a PR campaign ahead of a civil law suit that will hang on the balance of probability.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 11, 2015, 12:11:53 PM
If your insights are so relevant to the case, why were you not called as a witness in either the Mngeni or Dewani trials? Seems strange for the prosecutors to omit such a useful witness, does it not? 

We'll take your comments as a compliment. If we give the impression of being part of a PR campaign, then that means we must come across as quite professional and knowledgeable on the case.

With regard to an impending civil suit (yet more baseless speculation on your part), may I suggest that you don't hold your breath?

The balance of probabilities means that a court needs to   find it more likely than not (call it 51%) that he was involved in the crime. A civil suit may have succeeded in a case like OJ Simpson's, where the evidence fell just short of the "beyond reasonable doubt" benchmark, but such a suit would definitively stand no chance of success with Dewani, given the lack of any credible evidence linking him to the crime and irrefutable evidence proving that the allegations were made up by self serving criminals.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Mr Moderator on August 11, 2015, 02:16:24 PM
Like so many I was interested in this case but can we have a sensible debate without the sarcasm or nit-picking please as there are some areas which I would like to explore.

MM
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 11, 2015, 03:16:04 PM
Hi Mr Moderator,

Would be interested in your thoughts on our site. You might be able to make some suggestions as to additions/deletions/recatagorisations of claims?   We want it to reflect the known facts of the case as accurately as possible, and we also have sections for false and baseless information. 

One of the main reasons we set up the site, was because there is so much misinformation propagated about this case that it can be hard for someone who has jumped in late to separate fact from fiction.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Mr Moderator on August 11, 2015, 03:40:20 PM
Hi Mr Moderator,

Would be interested in your thoughts on our site. You might be able to make some suggestions as to additions/deletions/recatagorisations of claims?   We want it to reflect the known facts of the case as accurately as possible, and we also have sections for false and baseless information. 

One of the main reasons we set up the site, was because there is so much misinformation propagated about this case that it can be hard for someone who has jumped in late to separate fact from fiction.

That is the case unfortunately with most high profile events.  It is an onerous task seperating the corn from the chaff at the best of times so good luck with the Hindocha/Dewani murder.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: mercury on August 11, 2015, 08:16:44 PM
Hi Mercury,

Don't be sorry. Everyone is entitled to their view. Shrien Dewani's position is obviously linked to achieving justice for Anni. He was her husband and he was accused of being involved in the murder. We clearly cannot ignore him when discussing the case, however he isn't the focus for us, because the evidence made it clear that he wasn't involved. 

If you read our site's content, it should be abundantly clear how we know that he is innocent. I am sure that forum members would not appreciate me cutting and pasting large swathes of content from our site onto here, and I don't intend to type it all out.

Am happy to answer any questions you may have, or to clarify but please do take the time to have a look at our site if you would like to understand our position.

Might I make the comment that a lot of posters in this thread seem to have very strong views on the case, coupled with a very weak grasp on the basic facts and flawed understanding of the legalities. A recipe for disaster some might say! Although I guess this is no surprise when it comes to this case.

What is he doing in seeking justice for Anni? He seems to have kept a low profile as possible since the court case, no campaigns, no TV appearances, no book telling his side of the story to get public opinion on board, etc. And what of the animosity between him and Anni's family?

I never followed this case closely or know the ins and outs so no point me reading the website just yet. Just making general comments. There is such a thing as believing someone has escaped justice, for many reasons, whether right or wrong.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 11, 2015, 08:44:53 PM
What is he doing in seeking justice for Anni? He seems to have kept a low profile as possible since the court case, no campaigns, no TV appearances, no book telling his side of the story to get public opinion on board, etc. And what of the animosity between him and Anni's family?

I never followed this case closely or know the ins and outs so no point me reading the website just yet. Just making general comments. There is such a thing as believing someone has escaped justice, for many reasons, whether right or wrong.

I find it odd the man has done everything he can to avoid being cross-examined in public:  if it were me I'd be doing everything I could to bring those involved to justice - the way Anni's father has behaved in fact.  I think he treated her father with the utmost disrespect.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: mercury on August 11, 2015, 08:53:22 PM
I find it odd the man has done everything he can to avoid being cross-examined in public:  if it were me I'd be doing everything I could to bring those involved to justice - the way Anni's father has behaved in fact.  I think he treated her father with the utmost disrespect.

He doesn't seem a very likeable or believable man whichever way you cut it. JMHO.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 11, 2015, 09:04:13 PM
I find it odd the man has done everything he can to avoid being cross-examined in public:  if it were me I'd be doing everything I could to bring those involved to justice - the way Anni's father has behaved in fact. 

Agreed.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 11, 2015, 09:10:22 PM
What is he doing in seeking justice for Anni? He seems to have kept a low profile as possible since the court case, no campaigns, no TV appearances, no book telling his side of the story to get public opinion on board, etc. And what of the animosity between him and Anni's family?

Agreed it is strange that he hasn't told his side of the story. As someone who followed the case, I would give my left arm to hear him explain a few of the unknowns that only he can answer.

I don't think the animosity between the Dewani and Hindocha families is at all surprising, given the revelation that their daughter died on honeymoon with a man who was having adulterous gay affairs on the side. One would hardly expect them to feel kindly towards him, even if they did believe that he had no role in the murder.

Likewise from the Dewani side, its easy to understand why relations are frosty toward the Hindochas, since they probably feel like the Hindochas enabled and encouraged the malicious prosecution of their family member for four years.   
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: mercury on August 11, 2015, 09:16:29 PM
Agreed it is strange that he hasn't told his side of the story. As someone who followed the case, I would give my left arm to hear him explain a few of the unknowns that only he can answer.

I don't think the animosity between the Dewani and Hindocha families is at all surprising, given the revelation that their daughter died on honeymoon with a man who was having adulterous gay affairs on the side. One would hardly expect them to feel kindly towards him, even if they did believe that he had no role in the murder.

Likewise from the Dewani side, its easy to understand why relations are frosty toward the Hindochas, since they probably feel like the Hindochas enabled and encouraged the malicious prosecution of their family member for four years.

So what, in your opinion, explains Dewani's  silence / inaction all this time if you are of the view he wants justice for Anni?

Malicious prosecution? Were Anni's family the ones who caused Dewani to be charged and tried?
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: puglove on August 11, 2015, 09:23:57 PM
Agreed it is strange that he hasn't told his side of the story. As someone who followed the case, I would give my left arm to hear him explain a few of the unknowns that only he can answer.

I don't think the animosity between the Dewani and Hindocha families is at all surprising, given the revelation that their daughter died on honeymoon with a man who was having adulterous gay affairs on the side. One would hardly expect them to feel kindly towards him, even if they did believe that he had no role in the murder.

Likewise from the Dewani side, its easy to understand why relations are frosty toward the Hindochas, since they probably feel like the Hindochas enabled and encouraged the malicious prosecution of their family member for four years.

Having read extracts from Vinod Hindocha's book, it's quite clear why the Hindochas wouldn't "feel kindly" towards Dewani. His behaviour after Anni's murder was, quite simply, breathtakingly appalling.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 11, 2015, 09:30:29 PM
I have no idea whether Shrien wants justice for Anni. I'd imagine he does, but after the last four years, who knows?

We (Dewani Facts) would like to see justice for Anni.

Yes - malicious prosecution. Had the SAPS and the NPA done their jobs properly they would have realised that the criminals were feeding them a load of horseshit and that their story did not make sense. The Hindocha family didn't drive the prosecution but they certainly agreed with it and willed it to happen, due largely to the misinformation fed to them by SAPS, NPA, the media and Justice4Anni's obsessive social media lynching of Dewani. Mbolmobo was only granted immunity from prosecution due to the Hindochas giving the deal the ok. They were misled by NPA and SAPS as to the strength of the case against Shrien. It was a complete mess.

One cannot blame the Hindochas. They were in a desperately sad position and acted with dignity and courage the whole way through. Unfortunately it appeared that they had very poor legal advisors. Their pleas to the judge to force Dewani to take the stand were a low point and showed that they had no understanding of how the legal process works and of Dewani's absolute right to stay silent and not testify.  I can understand that type of ignorance being peddled in forums like this, but as the family of the victim I would have hoped they were receiving more solid legal advice. Sadly they were let down in that regard too. 
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: mercury on August 11, 2015, 09:38:50 PM
I have no idea whether Shrien wants justice for Anni. I'd imagine he does, but after the last four years, who knows?

We (Dewani Facts) would like to see justice for Anni.

Yes - malicious prosecution. Had the SAPS and the NPA done their jobs properly they would have realised that the criminals were feeding them a load of horseshit and that their story did not make sense. The Hindocha family didn't drive the prosecution but they certainly agreed with it and willed it to happen, due largely to the misinformation fed to them by SAPS, NPA, the media and Justice4Anni's obsessive social media lynching of Dewani. Mbolmobo was only granted immunity from prosecution due to the Hindochas giving the deal the ok. They were misled by NPA and SAPS as to the strength of the case against Shrien. It was a complete mess.

One cannot blame the Hindochas. They were in a desperately sad position and acted with dignity and courage the whole way through. Unfortunately it appeared that they had very poor legal advisors. Their pleas to the judge to force Dewani to take the stand were a low point and showed that they had no understanding of how the legal process works and of Dewani's absolute right to stay silent and not testify.  I can understand that type of ignorance being peddled in forums like this, but as the family of the victim I would have hoped they were receiving more solid legal advice. Sadly they were let down in that regard too.

But in your post number 103 you said Dewanis position is achieving justice for Anni, or words to that effect, thats why I brought it up, so how can you say now you don't know if he wants justice for Anni

As for right to silence, why the need if youre innocent?

Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 11, 2015, 10:02:33 PM
I think you've misunderstood what I said. I didn't express it well. Dewani is inextricably linked to most discussions of Anni's murder, as this thread demonstrates. That's all I meant in post 103.  I realise that you think DF is a PR creation or something like that but I can assure you that it's not. I cannot possibly speak for what Dewani does or doesn't want.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 11, 2015, 10:03:41 PM
Did you read reply 104? What are your thoughts on Tongo?
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: mercury on August 11, 2015, 10:49:29 PM
I think you've misunderstood what I said. I didn't express it well. Dewani is inextricably linked to most discussions of Anni's murder, as this thread demonstrates. That's all I meant in post 103.  I realise that you think DF is a PR creation or something like that but I can assure you that it's not. I cannot possibly speak for what Dewani does or doesn't want.

That's OK, I realise I probably mis read post 103 in which you were presumably sayng "we want justice for Anni" but Dewani is out of the picture. So who are you after? If the perpetrators are in jail?

Shrien Dewani's position is obviously linked to achieving justice for Anni. He was her husband and he was accused of being involved in the murder. We clearly cannot ignore him when discussing the case, however he isn't the focus for us, because the evidence made it clear that he wasn't involved. 

As for Tonga and post 104, sorry, as I said before, didn't really follow the case so have no opinion.  I followed the Pistorius case though

Wonder how he is doing after smashing his girlfriend's brains out and sayng it was a man or men who climbed in the top window of the bathroom that made him do it



PS I said you come across as a PR agent, that belief is not unfounded IMO when the general thrust of your posts are about Dewani's innocence
There must  be a reason why so many people did not trust his version of events or his behaviour for years and NO it is not all down to the papers
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 12, 2015, 08:27:15 AM
That's OK, I realise I probably mis read post 103 in which you were presumably sayng "we want justice for Anni" but Dewani is out of the picture. So who are you after? If the perpetrators are in jail?

The perpetrators are not all in jail and the ones that are in jail got lenient sentences with the exception of Mngeni who died whilst incarcerated. SA's strict liability principle specifies that the minimum penalty for an aggravated robbery that results in murder is 25 years imprisonment. That is the sentence that all of the conspirators to Anni's murder should be serving. Yet they aren't.

Monde Mbolombo - the man who coordinated the whole operation - enjoys his freedom to this day. He was granted full immunity from prosecution conditional upon him giving truthful testimony. He lied when testifying in the Mngeni trial, admitted these lies in a prepared statement before testifying in Dewani's trial and then was caught in a whole new load of lies in Dewani's trial. For this reason, the judge withdrew his immunity from prosecution but the NPA have allegedly told him that he will never be prosecuted. http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Man-charge-plot-kill-Anni-Dewani-allegedly-told/story-26728074-detail/story.html

Tongo is eligible for release in 4 years from now. 
Qwabe is eligible for release in 12.5 years from now.

These excessively lenient sentences are their reward for testifying against Dewani.

There is also a fifth conspirator whom the others lied for and refused to identify whilst under oath. That person also enjoys their freedom to this day.

Does any of that sound like justice for Anni or the Hindocha family?
 
You comment that the thrust of our posts seems to be about Dewani's innocence. In part you are correct because one needs to accept and move past Dewani's alleged involvement, to get to the bottom of what really happened. The obsessive focus of the SAPS, the NPA and the media on Shrien Dewani is what ultimately allowed 4 of the perpetrators to escape justice. 
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 12, 2015, 09:35:58 AM
The perpetrators are not all in jail and the ones that are in jail got lenient sentences with the exception of Mngeni who died whilst incarcerated. SA's strict liability principle specifies that the minimum penalty for an aggravated robbery that results in murder is 25 years imprisonment. That is the sentence that all of the conspirators to Anni's murder should be serving. Yet they aren't.

Monde Mbolombo - the man who coordinated the whole operation - enjoys his freedom to this day. He was granted full immunity from prosecution conditional upon him giving truthful testimony. He lied when testifying in the Mngeni trial, admitted these lies in a prepared statement before testifying in Dewani's trial and then was caught in a whole new load of lies in Dewani's trial. For this reason, the judge withdrew his immunity from prosecution but the NPA have allegedly told him that he will never be prosecuted. http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Man-charge-plot-kill-Anni-Dewani-allegedly-told/story-26728074-detail/story.html

Tongo is eligible for release in 4 years from now. 
Qwabe is eligible for release in 12.5 years from now.

These excessively lenient sentences are their reward for testifying against Dewani.

There is also a fifth conspirator whom the others lied for and refused to identify whilst under oath. That person also enjoys their freedom to this day.

Does any of that sound like justice for Anni or the Hindocha family?
 
You comment that the thrust of our posts seems to be about Dewani's innocence. In part you are correct because one needs to accept and move past Dewani's alleged involvement, to get to the bottom of what really happened. The obsessive focus of the SAPS, the NPA and the media on Shrien Dewani is what ultimately allowed 4 of the perpetrators to escape justice.


I think you'll find the Hindocha family want justice from the man their entrusted their daughter's safety to, who left her alone and defenceless in the back of a car with armed men in the middle of one of the world's most dangerous slums.

No matter how you try to spin it, how bizarre that the 2 strapping men in the backseat who could have fought back escaped without so much as a graze, but the slightly-built girl in high heels died.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 12, 2015, 09:56:58 AM
Cowardly? Possibly.

Bizarre? hardly. Ever had a gun held to your temple?  Common sense dictates that 2 strapping men are powerless against one man with a gun.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 12, 2015, 10:23:33 AM
As for right to silence, why the need if youre innocent?

Agreed. If it were me, then I would want to testify.

We will never know whether Dewani would have testified, had the trial continued.

I was previously of the view that he would have testified, but as the post trial months have gone by without him doing any type of interview or putting forward his side of the story I am now not so sure. It seems like he is not so intent on proving his innocence to the public.  One can speculate as to why that might be, but nobody really knows.

Perhaps he reads forums and realises that nothing he says will ever convince people of his innocence? Perhaps he's still mortally embarrassed at the revelations of his unfaithfulness? Maybe he's gotten over that part but its the gay aspect that he still finds too embarassing to talk about?  Perhaps he has been advised to simply get on with his life because he doesnt stand a chance of convincing those who believe in his guilt? At this stage its quite likely that whatever he says will be disbelieved by the public. People will dismiss it by saying he had nearly five years to come up with whatever story he tells


Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: John on August 12, 2015, 11:25:49 AM
Tongo's evidence was a complete and utter mess.  Getting the odd detail wrong could have been accepted as a mistake but he got just about everything wrong. 

Mention was made previously in this thread to the examination of phone records and SMS messages.  When the records were checked it was found that the calls and texts which Tongo had claimed were made never existed.  When confronted in court about this his answer was that there might be a problem with the records.  And pigs might fly!

Tongo didn't have a criminal record but that in itself says little about his honesty.  For all anyone knows he could have been the instigator of the robbery, a robbery which went badly wrong for him.  How many other robberies of wealthy tourists was he involved in but never detected?

This case exposes major shortcomings in the way cases are investigated in South Africa.  Both the police and prosecution can be legitimately criticised for their conduct.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 12, 2015, 12:01:59 PM
John: how does your assessment of Tongo's evidence impact your views on Dewani's guilt?

Any views on why Tongo lied when his plea deal depended only upon him telling the whole truth and nothing but?
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: John on August 12, 2015, 12:19:08 PM
Apologies John for not being able to address this until today.  Its not easy to respond to such a post briefly as you make a number of points. 

Tongo's testimony was not merely convoluted. His version of events contradicted his own statements as well as those of his co-conspirators on almost every material aspect of the case. The only thing that the phone calls and texts proved, was that there was interaction between Tongo and Dewani. Neither Tongo or Dewani disputed that those interactions took place. The only thing that was in dispute was whether those interactions related to organising a helicopter trip or a murder. Paragraphs 20-22 of the Judgement (http://www.saflii.org/za/cases/ZAWCHC/2014/188.html) explain this.

It is natural that there would be some errors and inconsistencies when recalling events from four years prior. Whilst these do raise little flags regarding his reliability as a witness, we are of the belief that these "mistakes" on their own do not prove that Tongo was lying about Dewani's involvement. The proof lies in the deceptive fabrications and perjury, in which Tongo was caught red handed. Apologies but I'm just going to lift a few examples straight from our site rather than typing it again.

TRUE 23:

Both Tongo and Mbolombo were caught fabricating testimony, relating to a phone call and texts that never existed, with the sole purpose of incriminating Shrien Dewani. The gist of their testimony was to make it appear as though Dewani had been chastising them to ensure that his wife would be killed and was in a hurry for it to happen. Paragraphs 23.1.79, and 24.3.37 of the Judgement, detail these fabrications, and the fact that both the prosecution and the defence teams agreed that the call/texts never took place.

TRUE 28:

There was a fifth conspirator in the plot, who was referenced in a taped phone conversation between Tongo and Mbolombo. Both Tongo and Mbolombo refused to name the fifth conspirator in Court. They contradicted each other’s answers and lied to cover this person’s identity. Paragraph 23.1.100 and 23.1.101 of the Judgement explain this point.
 
TRUE 29:

Qwabe refused to explain to the Court, why he drove Anni back into a residential area, when (according to him) he was carrying out a planned execution. Paragraph 24.1.28 of the Judgement, summarises Qwabe’s nonsensical contradictory evidence in this regard.


TRUE 33:

On the night of the fatal robbery, Zola Tongo made two “passes” through Gugulethu, with the Dewanis travelling in his taxi. The hijacking was supposed to occur on the first pass, however it didn’t eventuate because Qwabe and Mngeni failed to get a ride to the agreed location by the agreed time. After stopping for dinner, the hijacking was re-scheduled and took place later in the evening during the second pass through Gugulethu. Tongo admitted, under oath, that he made no attempt to ascertain whether the money was in the car prior to the first pass through Gugulethu, and since the Dewanis sat in the back of the taxi, Tongo knew with 100% certainty that the money could not be in the cubbyhole. This point is of great importance, given Zola Tongo’s claim that an integral part of the plan was for Dewani to leave an “agreed” R15,000 in the car’s cubbyhole (glovebox) for the hijackers. So despite knowing that the key element of his own version, the price of the hit, was not in place he was content to drive to the hijacking spot anyway. This is solid proof that there was no “agreed” sum, and that this was in fact a robbery/kidnapping operation of which Shrien Dewani had absolutely no knowledge. Paragraphs 23.1.71 and 23.1.78 of the Judgement detail this crucial point, and highlight Tongo’s deception.



Those are but a few examples of Tongo's deceptiveness. Read our site or the Judgement if you are interested in having the full arsenal of facts at your disposal.

It is our view (and the judge's view) that the hitman story could not reasonably possibly be true. It doesn't make any sense, its highly improbable on many levels, and the criminals who told that story were caught in so many instances of deception that it became obvious that they made it up to serve their own purposes.

Perhaps you can understand then why we are outraged at Mbolombo being a free man? The NPA have apparently told him that he will never be prosecuted. Does that sound like justice for Anni?

Thank you for providing a full response, I can see no room for argument with it.  I also agree with you that it is an outrage that this character Mbolombo was allowed to walk free in the circumstances.  One has to wonder what else he gave over to the SA police in order to secure such a deal or was he in fact a paid informer from the beginning?
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: John on August 12, 2015, 12:22:55 PM
John: how does your assessment of Tongo's evidence impact your views on Dewani's guilt?

Any views on why Tongo lied when his plea deal depended only upon him telling the whole truth and nothing but?

As with all liars, in the end they begin to believe their own lies.  I am not in the least surprised that Tongo tripped himself up on the stand, he was left in a situation where he had to remember which lie he told and when.  In the end the telling of lies upon lies will take its toll.

It is just unfortunate that the SA police couldn't have done their job properly, with honesty and integrity, rather, they left it to a judge to do it for them.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 12, 2015, 12:38:04 PM
The problem with a web of lies, as you correctly observe, is that they usually unravel. Tongo's plea bargain hearing, rubber stamped in 42 minutes, set the SA justice system down a steep slippery slope and just like a human descending a steep slippery slope it became almost impossible to backtrack or recover so the lies had to continue.

If you think the Dewani trial was controversial then you might find it interesting to read our latest blog post about the 2012 trial of Mngeni, one of the two hijackers. The guy who died jail. The trial anomalies are eye opening to say the least.

https://dewanifacts.wordpress.com/blog/

 
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: John on August 12, 2015, 12:50:27 PM
One point which interested me was the testimony by Tongo claiming that Dewani had threatened him and was insisting that the hijacking and killing had to be done that night.  The way I see this explained is that this conversation never took place.  Tongo knew that Dewani had brought the R10,000 for the helicopter trip which he was handing over to Tongo that night so the taxi had to be carjacked that night.

Tongo was an opportunist and contacted Mbolombo as he had probably done on other occasions in order to have the robbery carried out.  Mbolombo was the middle man, the fixer, who as a hotel receptionist was well placed to see which wealthy guests were coming and going. 
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 12, 2015, 12:54:28 PM
  I also agree with you that it is an outrage that this character Mbolombo was allowed to walk free in the circumstances.  One has to wonder what else he gave over to the SA police in order to secure such a deal or was he in fact a paid informer from the beginning?

Paid informer from the beginning? Thats an interesting line of thought. Have not come across that before. Will give it some consideration.

The one question that immediately comes to mind is why would he lie in two criminal trials if he was being paid by the police to inform?  I guess its theoretically possible that other criminals discovered that he was an informant, he was threatened and became a double agent of sorts by taking the money from the police but then not keeping his end of the bargain. That then begs the question of why the police and the NPA would allow him to get away with it.....

It is a highway of speculation really and without corroborating facts, probably takes us further from the truth rather than closer.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: John on August 12, 2015, 12:59:44 PM
Paid informer from the beginning? Thats an interesting line of thought. Have not come across that before. Will give it some consideration.

The one question that immediately comes to mind is why would he lie in two criminal trials if he was being paid by the police to inform?  I guess its theoretically possible that other criminals discovered that he was an informant, he was threatened and became a double agent of sorts by taking the money from the police but then not keeping his end of the bargain. That then begs the question of why the police and the NPA would allow him to get away with it.....

It is a highway of speculation really and without corroborating facts, probably takes us further from the truth rather than closer.

Have you considered that prosecuting Mbolombo could have opened up a huge can of worms for the SAP and possibly jeopardised other pending cases?
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 12, 2015, 01:04:37 PM
Its more speculation, but its possible, yes. Although of what worth is an informer who has perjured himself twice and managed to make the NPA look like fools to the world in a very high profile trial?

We are fans of Occam's Razor.

There's a far more likely reason for why the NPA aren't prosecuting Mbolombo. It will be the subject of a future blog post on our site, but its not hard for you to work out what that reason is. You are on the right track when you say that it would open a huge can of worms for the NPA and the SAPS.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: John on August 12, 2015, 01:54:35 PM
Its more speculation, but its possible, yes. Although of what worth is an informer who has perjured himself twice and managed to make the NPA look like fools to the world in a very high profile trial?

We are fans of Occam's Razor.

There's a far more likely reason for why the NPA aren't prosecuting Mbolombo. It will be the subject of a future blog post on our site, but its not hard for you to work out what that reason is. You are on the right track when you say that it would open a huge can of worms for the NPA and the SAPS.

I can well imagine.

Back to Dewani.  I think he did much damage to his credibility by attempting to thwart the extradition process in the way he did by throwing money at it.  In my opinion he should have gone back to SA and fought the case instead of looking for ways to avoid it.  In this respect I put the blame firmly at the feet of the English Courts for prolonging his return.  This huge delay not only allowed the other defendants to conspire against him but caused enormous hurt to Anni's family.

Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Angelo222 on August 12, 2015, 01:58:33 PM
I can well imagine.

Back to Dewani.  I think he did much damage to his credibility by attempting to thwart the extradition process in the way he did by throwing money at it.  In my opinion he should have gone back to SA and fought the case instead of looking for ways to avoid it.  In this respect I put the blame firmly at the feet of the English Courts for prolonging his return.  This huge delay not only allowed the other defendants to conspire against him but caused enormous hurt to Anni's family.

It made him look guilty every time he was seen in court.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 12, 2015, 02:25:28 PM
I don't understand why Dewani gave a stranger from a slum money for a helicopter trip.  Just like in this country, the normal way to organise this is to phone the helicopter company, book the trip and give them your credit card number over the phone - they do work in South Africa you know! I recall 5 star hotels will also sometimes have a selection of trips organised which the Reception Desk will book for you and then the trip appears on your bill at the end of your stay.

Referring to my previous post about dishonesty in South Africa I can tell you from bitter experience if you give an ordinary person a large sum of money they will just vanish with it.  You would not give the taxi driver the money for the helicopter trip:  the unlicensed taxi driver from a slum where there aren't even proper street addresses would just vanish and you would never see him or your money again. 

I've done the helicopter trip:  the taxi would take you to the launch site close by the Waterfront (I went in my own car).  He would wait, because he also wants the fare to take you back (or in my case if using a taxi I usually negotiated a set fee for them to be at my beck and call all day:  petrol is cheap in SA and so are taxis).  You walk into the small office of the helicopter tour company by the helipad and either pay them cash or with your credit card if you didn't earlier then you go up in the helicopter.  In South Africa, you avoid giving middle men the money because it doesn't get to its destination. 

It is also highly unusual for someone like a lowly taxi driver, let alone an unlicensed one, to enter a 5 star hotel.  I would expect him to get grief from the security guard at the front door, whose job it is to keep people like him out.  Unfortunately with such a wealth divide, and the legacy of an apartheid upbringing, I'd expect someone of his age and background to be extremely ill-at-ease entering anywhere beyond the foyer, knowing they are completely out of place and might be in serious trouble for being there (I have seen some appalling public taking-downs by white management in SA, who play to the gallery for what they expect the white paying customer wants).  In my experience as a former employer and a tourist there, I'd expect someone from such a humble background to be so out of his depth he would decline to go beyond the lobby, be fiddling with his hat and looking around nervously and certainly not sit down on a sofa and make himself comfortable.

I know none of this is specific, I'm just highlighting once again, how extraordinarily out of the ordinary everything about this case is to someone who knows what is customary.  I had periods where I lived in various 5 star hotels in South Africa for months and I had the experience, as a foreigner, of observing how different their social hierarchy and interaction was to the UK.  Until about 15 years ago it was illegal for this man to look a white person in the eye - that was very hard to change in older members of the workforce brought up under apartheid:  they're still very respectful and hierarchical, call you 'bass' and 'madam' and 'menir'.  I found this episode very odd too.

As for the lying:  when they are caught out its like dealing with little children - they just say the most stupid, easily disproved lies, anything they can think of.  My husband and I employed about 200 people at one point:  as an employer you become part of their clan, they bring all their problems to you - their marriage problems, they're in jail for hitting someone after getting drunk, a mass brawl over a brother-in-law not repaying money, pistol-whipping someone who stole from their aunt's business - we even had an employee take money to finance setting her girlfriend up in a brothel - even the witnesses tell little lies because they don't want to disclose some little scheme they were running on the side.  That's not even the lies they tell for stealing from you even though you just gave them a payrise, stood them bail and lent them money because they accidentally drank it all.  They all tell a web of stupid, easily disproved lies.  It's a cultural thing.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 12, 2015, 02:28:07 PM
Dewani did a lot of things that made himself look guilty, although I don't believe that fighting extradition was one of them.

His failure to mention the helicopter and money to the police remains, to my mind, the single biggest mystery surrounding his involvement, which is tied to the equally perplexing naivety that saw him believing Tongo to be an innocent victim and worthy of pity and a R1000 payment.

 
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 12, 2015, 02:39:21 PM
Dewani did a lot of things that made himself look guilty, although I don't believe that fighting extradition was one of them.

His failure to mention the helicopter and money to the police remains, to my mind, the single biggest mystery surrounding his involvement, which is tied to the equally perplexing naivety that saw him believing Tongo to be an innocent victim and worthy of pity and a R1000 payment.

For once we agree!

Helicopter Tour Page: 

https://www.helicopterscapetown.co.za (https://www.helicopterscapetown.co.za)

Dearest tour:  £175pp

I quite forgot that whereas I drove there, because by that time a had a flat in the CBD, the helicopter takes off at the tip of the V&A Waterfront it was only a few hundred yards through that scenic video I posted yesterday and without a shadow of a doubt they would have walked there.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 12, 2015, 02:52:51 PM
The mass of grey on the map is that world class shopping centre with a multiscreen cinema I was talking about.  The Cape Grace is just off the map at the bottom in about the Middle.  Almost the whole walk is full of buskers and street artists, a working harbour, seals, restaurants, happy holiday makers etc.  Out towards the point where the helipad is it's a bit more industrial:  that's where visiting warships US/British/French navies are docked, and it is a bit tarmaccy and carparky - there's a big sea wall thing wraps right along that top sea side which has lots of people walking their dog, couples taking a sunset stroll etc.

I've put a star on where the helicopter rides all go from and a star in their hotel on a Google map for you.





[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: John on August 12, 2015, 02:58:36 PM
I don't understand why Dewani gave a stranger from a slum money for a helicopter trip.  Just like in this country, the normal way to organise this is to phone the helicopter company, book the trip and give them your credit card number over the phone - they do work in South Africa you know! I recall 5 star hotels will also sometimes have a selection of trips organised which the Reception Desk will book for you and then the trip appears on your bill at the end of your stay.

Referring to my previous post about dishonesty in South Africa I can tell you from bitter experience if you give an ordinary person a large sum of money they will just vanish with it.  You would not give the taxi driver the money for the helicopter trip:  the unlicensed taxi driver from a slum where there aren't even proper street addresses would just vanish and you would never see him or your money again. 

I've done the helicopter trip:  the taxi would take you to the launch site close by the Waterfront (I went in my own car).  He would wait, because he also wants the fare to take you back (or in my case if using a taxi I usually negotiated a set fee for them to be at my beck and call all day:  petrol is cheap in SA and so are taxis).  You walk into the small office of the helicopter tour company by the helipad and either pay them cash or with your credit card if you didn't earlier then you go up in the helicopter.  In South Africa, you avoid giving middle men the money because it doesn't get to its destination. 


The simple answer to this would be that Tongo sold the trip to Shrien Dewani probably offering him some sort of incentive for cash.  Dewani wasn't to know Tongo was from the slums, to him he was a licensed operator so could be trusted with a mere Rand 10,000 or £500
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 12, 2015, 03:05:47 PM
So on the one hand he pushed through all the licensed taxi drivers inside the airport and must have walked out down the road to the carpark to find an unlicensed one that was cheaper, but on the other he's easy with giving him upfront payment of £250. 

I posted you a photo yesterday which showed you that you drive along a highway through townships/slums to get to the V&A - when I first saw them I found it shocking.  Dewani won't have though because he spent a lot of time in India and will have known there that you don't give a poor person £250 cash either.

He's a business man:  he knows you don't give money to someone over whom you have no return if it goes wrong.

 
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 12, 2015, 03:18:09 PM
The simple answer to this would be that Tongo sold the trip to Shrien Dewani probably offering him some sort of incentive for cash.

Precisely. In fact what Tongo offered was the promise of a helicopter ride that no other helicopter provider could offer. A helicopter ride that could land on Table Mountain. Such a ride is impossible because aircraft are not permitted near table mountain, but Dewani was so wet he fell for it. Dewani mentioned the planned ride in his interview with Dan Newling, less than 48 hours after the murder.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 12, 2015, 03:19:56 PM
The Guy is squeaky-clean John:  there's nothing on him.  That is the joy of a verbal contract:  it's not worth the paper it's written on.

But absolutely everything points to his involvement.

He had to come up with something quick for the helicopter excuse and he will not have known where they took off from is close to the hotel, or the advertising fro them around the V&A, there will have been a box of pamphlets for local attractions in the hotel foyer, there will have been a lovely faux-leather A4 folder in his room listen all the services in and out if the hotel - there will have been a page with the telephone numbers of the helicopter tours inside or it will have been typed 'please call Reception for them to book it for you'.

Customer Service in SA is ace:  you turn up a complete nobody and with the exchange rate in your favour you are treated like a Prince, nowhere more so than in a 5 Star hotel in the very year they were hosting The World Cup:  I was there at that time - the whole place was buzzing with excitement and they were busting their guts to show the world how fantastic the new South Africa was for tourists.

No need to ask the unlicensed taxi driver - who will have been barely literate.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: John on August 12, 2015, 03:23:44 PM
So on the one hand he pushed through all the licensed taxi drivers inside the airport and must have walked out down the road to the carpark to find an unlicensed one that was cheaper, but on the other he's easy with giving him upfront payment of £250. 

I posted you a photo yesterday which showed you that you drive along a highway through townships/slums to get to the V&A - when I first saw them I found it shocking.  Dewani won't have though because he spent a lot of time in India and will have known there that you don't give a poor person £250 cash either.

He's a business man:  he knows you don't give money to someone over whom you have no return if it goes wrong.

But he didn't give the R10,000 to Tongo, another reason why he should have had an opportunity to explain it all on the stand.

Unfortunately, the Judge was persuaded by the defence that the other three defendants were unreliable as witnesses so deprived Dewani of the opportunity to clear these issues up.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 12, 2015, 03:24:45 PM

No need to ask the unlicensed taxi driver - who will have been barely literate.

Yet he did. Seems in keeping with his overall naivety does it not?  Also seems in keeping with his discount seeking ways, does it not? Saved on the taxi, saved on the game reserve accomodation by pretending to be a travel agent....

Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 12, 2015, 03:27:35 PM
Precisely. In fact what Tongo offered was the promise of a helicopter ride that no other helicopter provider could offer. A helicopter ride that could land on Table Mountain. Such a ride is impossible because aircraft are not permitted near table mountain, but Dewani was so wet he fell for it. Dewani mentioned the planned ride in his interview with Dan Newling, less than 48 hours after the murder.

What utter gibberish.  There is no way an illiterate black taxi driver could get a discount of a wealthy white helicopter pilot:  it is laughable to suggest it.  How many did you try to strike up a conversation with? You most certainly wouldn't be under the impression they are persuasive deal-doers like they might be in, say, an Arabic country.  You'd be just about ok for them to drive the car.

Dewani came from India:  his ability to spot a complete nobody will have been finely tuned. 

The top of Tabke Mountain is only flat from the front - it slopes up the back, isn't that high easy easily walked up and down before lunch, has a cable car going up it and is only remarkable once you are up there for the view.  It's a Nature Reserve, has a lake on top, is covered in massive rocks and has a huge updraft from the sea and seriously a hundred other reasons why you wouldn't bother taking a helicopter up there.  The exciting thing from the helicopter is diving down to look at Wales and seeking the beautiful wild coastline.  The Top of Table is quite boring apart from the view from the edge.

That whole suggestion is just crazy.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 12, 2015, 03:39:35 PM
Yet he did. Seems in keeping with his overall naivety does it not?  Also seems in keeping with his discount seeking ways, does it not? Saved on the taxi, saved on the game reserve accomodation by pretending to be a travel agent....

He's proved he's a slippery liar, not naive.  This naive man was paying to be racially abused by a gay prostitute whilst coming up with excuses why he wouldn't sleep with his lovely wife, remember:  he was deliberately duplicitous.  He deliberately planned a very expensive wedding - an expense born by Anni's family - to keep his parents happy even though he knew he was gay.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 12, 2015, 03:41:56 PM
What utter gibberish.  There is no way an illiterate black taxi driver could get a discount of a wealthy white helicopter pilot:  it is laughable to suggest it. 

Yes, that is precisely the point. Tongo duped Dewani into thinking he could wangle some incredible romantic experience.

No such experience existed. No such pilot existed. All that was required was for Tongo to make Dewani believe that it was possible, and Tongo cunningly ensured that a large sum of cash was in the car when his robbery took place.  We already know that Tongo had successfully gained the trust of his two clients. He even testified in court about how he pointed out notable things on the way back from the airport to show clients he was a knowledgeable, worthy tour guide whom they could trust.

You have a very aggressive tone, if you don't mind me saying. Try to be polite.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Anna on August 12, 2015, 03:45:11 PM
But he didn't give the R10,000 to Tongo, another reason why he should have had an opportunity to explain it all on the stand.

Unfortunately, the Judge was persuaded by the defence that the other three defendants were unreliable as witnesses so deprived Dewano of the opportunity to clear these issues up.

Dewani's legal team brought the discharge application in terms of section 174 of the Criminal Procedure Act, opening the way for a discharge if the court believes there is no credible evidence at the close of the State's case.

The witnesses were deemed unreliable and the only way evidence would be available, is if he incriminated himself in the box. I am sure that his legal team, did not want to risk that.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 12, 2015, 03:47:59 PM
Passer-by, your contribution is intriguing, albeit aggressive and unpleasant in tone. You have written thousands of words telling this thread how dishonesty, lying and thieving are prolific in South Africa. Yet you go on to claim that it is beyond belief that a lowly taxi driver (your words, not mine) would gain the trust of his clientele and then set them up to be robbed.


 
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 12, 2015, 04:26:22 PM
Passer-by, your contribution is intriguing, albeit aggressive and unpleasant in tone. You have written thousands of words telling this thread how dishonesty, lying and thieving are prolific in South Africa. Yet you go on to claim that it is beyond belief that a lowly taxi driver (your words, not mine) would gain the trust of his clientele and then set them up to be robbed.

My tone is aggressive because at the outset you were patronising and also tried to BS your knowledge of the area from a 2 week holiday to over-ride my detailed knowledge of a great deal of the area and setting.

I am not saying it is beyond belief Tongo is dishonest - I'm saying it's beyond belief he would pass as a credible agent for the joys of Cape Town Tourism and it's beyond belief  a suave urbane  self-made millionaire accustomed to an even stricter social hierarchy in India would think such.   I strongly suspect there would have been a cumbersome language barrier between them even if they had both been talking English.  I don't recall using the word 'lowly' - I believe I used the word 'illiterate'.  Tongo is 34, therefore he is part of the 'Lost Generation' that obeyed the ANC idea of boycotting education in order to deny the Apartheid regime a functioning workforce:  this was in place until 1990 when he would have been about 10.  It only requires a bribe at certain test centres to get a driving license (I had a load of people in the queue offer it to me when I took my own test - happily I wasn't in need to cheat).

There won't have been much small talk.

Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: John on August 12, 2015, 04:32:53 PM
Mbolombo not to face prosecution despite trial Judge's direction.

'Mastermind' behind murder of Anni Dewani escapes justice... despite admitting he was 'very much in charge' of plot to kill her

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3131021/Mastermind-murder-Anni-Dewani-escapes-justice-despite-admitting-charge-plot-kill-her.html
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: John on August 12, 2015, 04:36:32 PM
Yes, that is precisely the point. Tongo duped Dewani into thinking he could wangle some incredible romantic experience.

No such experience existed. No such pilot existed. All that was required was for Tongo to make Dewani believe that it was possible, and Tongo cunningly ensured that a large sum of cash was in the car when his robbery took place.  We already know that Tongo had successfully gained the trust of his two clients. He even testified in court about how he pointed out notable things on the way back from the airport to show clients he was a knowledgeable, worthy tour guide whom they could trust.

You have a very aggressive tone, if you don't mind me saying. Try to be polite.

A question which the trial Judge raised and which you might have considered.  Why would Tongo and Mbolombo put their necks in a noose for a mere £250 (Tongo's fee)?   Did Mbolombo get anything in the end?

Was this a robbery which went wrong when Anni's killer attempted to molest her?
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 12, 2015, 04:41:20 PM
In fact, he may not even have had a driving license.  It wasn't even obligatory to have insurance and £5 inside your passport/ID book would get you off a speeding fine.

John:  did you see my post about the value of 1 cent?
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: John on August 12, 2015, 04:55:49 PM
In fact, he may not even have had a driving license.  It wasn't even obligatory to have insurance and £5 inside your passport/ID book would get you off a speeding fine.

John:  did you see my post about the value of 1 cent?

I haven't read the entire thread yet but did go to your post.  I will admit I was shocked when I realised that 10,000 Rand was only worth around 500 quid; is life really so cheap in SA?
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: John on August 12, 2015, 05:03:31 PM
@dewanifacts

Your item #40 under the heading 'Claims proven beyond reasonable doubt to be TRUE'.

Quote
Shrien Dewani did not mention the helicopter trip or the missing R10,000 in his police statements following the murder. This omission may have allowed Tongo to evade suspicion in the early stages of the police investigation and was interpreted by some as a deliberate attempt to throw police off the scent. SAPS themselves declared that such information would have changed the course of the investigation which would have focused on the driver, Tongo, sooner. It is therefore reasonable to consider whether omitting the information was a conscious decision as opposed to merely an oversight in the aftermath of a particularly traumatic event. Since any attempts by Shrien Dewani’s representatives to make further statements, or to be interviewed by SAPS, were refused, and he was not compelled to answer questions in court, Dewani has never been questioned formally on the topic or granted the opportunity to offer an explanation. In retrospect, since the totality of evidence renders the ‘hitman’ version a non-starter, it is likely that any conscious decision by Shrien Dewani to omit the information was most likely related to personal embarrassment and shame at being duped into carrying an attractive amount of money for a bogus helicopter trip. A ruse which ultimately cost Anni her life.


In the last paragraph you have entered into a speculation which is inappropriate.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 12, 2015, 05:14:44 PM
I haven't read the entire thread yet but did go to your post.  I will admit I was shocked when I realised that 10,000 Rand was only worth around 500 quid; is life really so cheap in SA?

Yup.  And £500 is a f*** of a lot of money to millions of people living in between the airport and the V&A.

Though personally I think there will have been a bigger arrangement with someone higher up the food chain prior to arrival as well.  I don't think it was an accident he bumped into Tongo at the airport.

It would be interesting to know whether he had any meetings when he flew in via Joburg (which used enjoy the title 'Murder Capital of The World'.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: John on August 12, 2015, 05:32:40 PM
Yup.  And £500 is a f*** of a lot of money to millions of people living in between the airport and the V&A.

Though personally I think there will have been a bigger arrangement with someone higher up the food chain prior to arrival as well.  I don't think it was an accident he bumped into Tongo at the airport.

It would be interesting to know whether he had any meetings when he flew in via Joburg (which used enjoy the title 'Murder Capital of The World'.

From the Trial Report, this stands out...

24.2.8
Mr. Mbolombo testified that while he and Mr. Tongo were driving towards Mr. Mbolombo’s work, Mr. Tongo received a phone call and then said, “here is the gentleman that we are talking about, the man who wants his wife to be killed”. Mr. Tongo then spoke on the phone and all Mr. Mbolombo heard Mr. Tongo saying is, “I’m coming, I’m coming”. Mr. Tongo thereupon put the phone down and said that the gentleman does not trust him. Mr. Tongo then informed him that he had to go and take the accused to change his dollars into rands so that he can pay the killers. He added that the accused did not want to go to a “legitimate” place where the dollars are being changed for rands because he, the accused, did not want to be charged for tax. Mr. Tongo also informed Mr. Mbolombo that the couple was from overseas and that it is not the first time that the accused had done “this”, that he has been in South Africa before, done “this” before, and he wants to do it again, but it should appear to be a fake hijacking. Upon arrival at the Protea Hotel, Mr. Tongo said to Mr. Mbolombo that he had to rush to Khayelitsha to meet with Mr. Qwabe.

Was any of this followed up on?
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 12, 2015, 05:39:54 PM
I might also add that when life is tough it largely comprises of 'did we all eat today':  we had real problems because of people's concept of time when it came to planning. Most could about stretch to last week and next week.  I had one lady who would express something happened 'a long LONG time ago!  Even before my mother's mother's mother's mother!' - further examination would reveal it would be something like 1982.

I knew someone else who had a loyal family retainer, their parents had worked for his parents, they were great employers, gave the retainer everything he could need for:  a pretty cottage, free food produced on the farm, paid for their children's education, employed other members of the family etc. One day the long floral curtains in the living room vanished overnight:  a most curious crime!?  Lo and behold, a couple of weeks later, the retainer's wife, daughter and sister-in-law were all seen wearing dresses in fabric identical to the curtains.  They went to have a chat and found the cottage had curtains in the fabric as well.  The loyal retainer broke down and confessed:  his wife had coveted those curtains for years and went on and on at him until he nicked them for her.  If they find they can abuse your trust and get away with it, it happens again - and again until it's seriously taking the piss.  The retainer had to go.  Weren't really thinking of the consequences, or the future, were they?

And that is a major problem down there:  very little thought to the future or the consequences. And some poor sucker at the bottom of the pile takes the punishment for the savvier ones who used them.

I think you also need to get your head around the idea of what the world looks like to someone who has had no education and grew up with no electricity, no television etc and no books.  The world is a surprisingly simple place.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 12, 2015, 05:48:29 PM
From the Trial Report, this stands out...

24.2.8
Mr. Mbolombo testified that while he and Mr. Tongo were driving towards Mr. Mbolombo’s work, Mr. Tongo received a phone call and then said, “here is the gentleman that we are talking about, the man who wants his wife to be killed”. Mr. Tongo then spoke on the phone and all Mr. Mbolombo heard Mr. Tongo saying is, “I’m coming, I’m coming”. Mr. Tongo thereupon put the phone down and said that the gentleman does not trust him. Mr. Tongo then informed him that he had to go and take the accused to change his dollars into rands so that he can pay the killers. He added that the accused did not want to go to a “legitimate” place where the dollars are being changed for rands because he, the accused, did not want to be charged for tax. Mr. Tongo also informed Mr. Mbolombo that the couple was from overseas and that it is not the first time that the accused had done “this”, that he has been in South Africa before, done “this” before, and he wants to do it again, but it should appear to be a fake hijacking. Upon arrival at the Protea Hotel, Mr. Tongo said to Mr. Mbolombo that he had to rush to Khayelitsha to meet with Mr. Qwabe.

Was any of this followed up on?

I posted something about this higher up - many South Africans leapt upon it at the time because it was another unusual crime.  The widow flew to Cape Town to comfort Dewani.  It was over on the Eastern Cape - another hijack where the car was left, one bulletin wound and no signs of a robbery.  Dewani knew the guy and apparently boasted about arranging it though I don't know who to.

It is worth noting that the largest Indian Community in the world outside of India is in South Africa.  It may call itself The Rainbow Nation, but each tribe keeps to itself.  I haven't been down recently, but I would have regarded it as highly unusual to see a mix-raced couple for example even in 2010.  Each ethnic group kept largely to itself, lived in communities, conducted business etc. The Indian community was highly sophisticated and well educated.  If it had been an Indian taxi driver in Cape Town I would have gone with Dewanifacts idea of him kidding Dewani into letting him be the tourguide no problem at all, likewise if it had been someone Cape Coloured.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 12, 2015, 06:56:14 PM
A question which the trial Judge raised and which you might have considered.  Why would Tongo and Mbolombo put their necks in a noose for a mere £250 (Tongo's fee)?   Did Mbolombo get anything in the end?

The R10000 was a sweetener not the main payoff. Put that aside and the incentive for Tongo, Mbolombo and the other conspirators was a nice haul of cash and valuables. The same incentive as many other robberies in a country  where over 100,000 aggravated robberies take place each year, and the police barely bat an eyelid. Their necks were not in a noose. If it had been a simple robbery that went to plan then the chances of being caught were next to nothing.

Nicely dressed tourists made easy pickings especially when their taxi driver was in on the operation. Turned out they were right. The Dewanis were robbed of R80,000 worth of cash and valuables and the criminals only left the R250,000 engagement ring because of the panic that ensued when robbery turned into murder.

Makes the alleged R15,000 hitman fee seem rather ridiculous, does it not?

As for what the judge said. Its not quite as you suggest. She indicated that she did not believe that they would agree to a murder plot for the sum of R15000.  This is indicated in paragraph 24.4 of the judgement which I have pasted below. This paragraph also makes it clear that Passer-by's comments are totally out of touch with the reality of the players in this case. These were not illiterate slum dwellers. Tongo was more than capable of gaining the trust of his clients by impressing them with his knowledge and charm. I'd suggest that the judge was in a better position to make this call than Passer-by who presumably was not in the court room and is simply sprouting generalisations and trying to imply that her local knowledge trumps real evidence. 

24.4.4 These men are not typical of the criminal elements which one encounters. Each one of them impressed me as intelligent and bright, but, calculated. They may have been amateurs in arranging a hit on a person’s life, but I do not believe that any one of them would be so stupid as to take part in this crime for just a few thousand rand. On Mr. Tongo’s own saying he was earning between R30 000,00 and R40 000,00 per month. Mr. Mbolombo had a job, and Mr. Qwabe was formally employed until April 2010, and thereafter assisted his mother in her business.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 12, 2015, 07:23:24 PM
The R10000 was a sweetener not the main payoff. Put that aside and the incentive for Tongo, Mbolombo and the other conspirators was a nice haul of cash and valuables. The same incentive as many other robberies in a country  where over 100,000 aggravated robberies take place each year, and the police barely bat an eyelid.

Nicely dressed tourists made easy pickings especially when their taxi driver was in on the operation. Turned out they were right. The Dewanis were robbed of R80,000 worth of cash and valuables and the criminals only left the R250,000 engagement ring because of the panic that ensued when robbery turned into murder.

Makes the alleged R15,000 hitman fee seem rather ridiculous, does it not?

As for what the judge said. Its not quite as you suggest. She indicated that she did not believe that they would agree to a murder plot for the sum of R15000.  This is indicated in paragraph 24.4 of the judgement which I have pasted below. This paragraph also makes it clear that Passer-by's comments are totally out of touch with the reality of the players in this case. These were not illiterate slum dwellers. Tongo was more than capable of gaining the trust of his clients by impressing them with his knowledge and charm. I'd suggest that the judge was in a better position to make this call than Passer-by who presumably was not in the court room and is simply sprouting generalisations and trying to imply that her local knowledge trumps real evidence. 

24.4.4 These men are not typical of the criminal elements which one encounters. Each one of them impressed me as intelligent and bright, but, calculated. They may have been amateurs in arranging a hit on a person’s life, but I do not believe that any one of them would be so stupid as to take part in this crime for just a few thousand rand. On Mr. Tongo’s own saying he was earning between R30 000,00 and R40 000,00 per month. Mr. Mbolombo had a job, and Mr. Qwabe was formally employed until April 2010, and thereafter assisted his mother in her business.

"These men were not typical of the criminal elements which one encounters".  So how many criminal elements have you encountered then Dewanifacts?  I'm assuming you weren't in the Court Room either when each one struck you as bright and articulate?  How do you know what is 'amateur' when it comes to arranging a hit in a person's life?  Previously you slammed these people as liars, but now you're saying their word that they had no need to kill her is all we need to believe them.

Pretty much all black people who live in South Africa are what you call 'slum dwellers':  the actual term is 'Township'.  The girl who cleaned your hotel room, the waiter at your table, even the bank clerk who changed your currency, will all have gone home to a Township.  Some Townships are better than others and perhaps the houses are 2-room bungalows, and the Government has done a great job of getting electricity to these and Portaloo toilets on street corners of even the worst.  You are in the tiny minority in the world who lives a life of an incredible privilege.

I understood Tongo came from Khayelitsha was actually an illegal squatter camp in the 1980s and is renowned for being one of the poorest areas of the Western Cape.  I've already posted photos of it.

Please furnish your proof of where he in fact came from and if at all possible video footage of the trial so we can judge for ourselves how he speaks.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 12, 2015, 07:28:44 PM
I very clearly stated that I was posting a paragraph from the judgement. They are a senior judge's words, not my own. I daresay she has encountered quite a few criminal elements in her long career as a respected member of the Cape Town judiciary. 


Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 12, 2015, 08:27:38 PM
He's proved he's a slippery liar, not naive.  This naive man was paying to be racially abused by a gay prostitute whilst coming up with excuses why he wouldn't sleep with his lovely wife, remember:  he was deliberately duplicitous.  He deliberately planned a very expensive wedding - an expense born by Anni's family - to keep his parents happy even though he knew he was gay. 

What does any of this have to do with his naivety? Are you suggesting that gay people cannot be naive? People who use prostitutes cannot be naive?  Duplicitous people cannot be naive?
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Admin on August 12, 2015, 08:42:02 PM
I have already warned that posts which enter the realms of speculation and which are potentially defamatory will be removed.  No more please.

Admin
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 12, 2015, 08:48:34 PM
How did we even get stuck up this Gumtree?  Ah yes that's right, Dewanifacts:  you hypothesised that Tongo might have offered to be Dewani's tourguide and you imagined that he could have dreamed-up something as fantastical as getting the helicopter to land in Table Mountain.  You theorise that this could be why Dewani allegedly paid him for a helicopter trip because in your opinion he us naive.

And yet it's got utterly tiresome how ever time I expand with more background to show why your hypotheses don't have the ring of truth you counter by telling me to stick to facts.

Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 12, 2015, 08:53:13 PM
What does any of this have to do with his naivety? Are you suggesting that gay people cannot be naive? People who use prostitutes cannot be naive?  Duplicitous people cannot be naive?

Stick to the facts then:  prove to us he is naive.  I think that shows he is scheming. 

Sorry admin:  he has admitted he is gay and what the prostitue did has been openly reported in the press.  Being a gay man and marrying a heterosexual woman is relevant as it shows he is willing to deceive even the people closest to him and it requires a lot of pretence and facade, which are not the hallmarks of someone who is naive.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 12, 2015, 09:03:19 PM
Not so fast. Lets go back to your comments quoted below. Do you maintain that the judge wasn't in a qualified position to make these observations?

"These men were not typical of the criminal elements which one encounters".  So how many criminal elements have you encountered then Dewanifacts?  I'm assuming you weren't in the Court Room either when each one struck you as bright and articulate?  How do you know what is 'amateur' when it comes to arranging a hit in a person's life?  Previously you slammed these people as liars, but now you're saying their word that they had no need to kill her is all we need to believe them.

Pretty much all black people who live in South Africa are what you call 'slum dwellers':  the actual term is 'Township'.  The girl who cleaned your hotel room, the waiter at your table, even the bank clerk who changed your currency, will all have gone home to a Township.  Some Townships are better than others and perhaps the houses are 2-room bungalows, and the Government has done a great job of getting electricity to these and Portaloo toilets on street corners of even the worst.  You are in the tiny minority in the world who lives a life of an incredible privilege.

I understood Tongo came from Khayelitsha was actually an illegal squatter camp in the 1980s and is renowned for being one of the poorest areas of the Western Cape.  I've already posted photos of it.

Please furnish your proof of where he in fact came from and if at all possible video footage of the trial so we can judge for ourselves how he speaks.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 12, 2015, 09:06:35 PM
Back to the helicopter:  there is no rational explanation for giving the Taxi driver the money for the helicopter.   Though it is possible, it is utterly improbable.

None of us was there, so obviously none of us can state what could have taken place.  I've just given you a lot of background and personal experience to illustrate why in my opinion it's not only untrue but utterly implausible. There is no way of ever knowing what it was for because there is no audio recording and no written contract.  So it is all pure speculation.

I have to say, my sympathies lie with Tongo:  I know his type - he's had an utterly bum deal in life, his education will have been sacrificed for the Greater Good and then when apartheid ended everyone just merrily got with life and that generation was left hung out to dry.  He is, I believe, Xhosa - they aren't local to the Cape (hardly anybody is) but they pitched up about last and it's likely his family were rural poor who came to Cape Town to earn more money then discovered they hadn't any skills to sell.  He already had 5 kids to feed, he had somehow got himself a car, and I dare say was struggling to keep his head above water and desperate for cash:  he was probably told all he had to do was collect a foreigner from the airport and take them to a Township and he wouldn't be involved in the hit.  And then Lo and Behold, he's in jail, his car is wrecked with the girl shot in it he's taken the rap for all the big fish.

Who's to say if you or I had been born in his shoes we'd have done any better?
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 12, 2015, 09:11:32 PM
How did we even get stuck up this Gumtree?  Ah yes that's right, Dewanifacts:  you hypothesised that Tongo might have offered to be Dewani's tourguide and you imagined that he could have dreamed-up something as fantastical as getting the helicopter to land in Table Mountain.  You theorise that this could be why Dewani allegedly paid him for a helicopter trip because in your opinion he us naive.

And yet it's got utterly tiresome how ever time I expand with more background to show why your hypotheses don't have the ring of truth you counter by telling me to stick to facts.

No hypothesising my friend. It is all sourced and backed with evidence.

Tongo testified to the tour guide part. Its all there in the judgement.

An independant journalist (Dan Newling) quoted Dewani as telling him about the impossible helicopter ride.

May I ask you a straight up question? I'd prefer if you don't embellish your answer with any of your local expertise.

Have you ever read the Dewani Judgement?  Its filled with factual information on this case. Factual information that contradicts a very large percentage of the "information" that you post on this forum.

Here is the link - http://www.saflii.org/za/cases/ZAWCHC/2014/188.html
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 12, 2015, 09:12:23 PM
Not so fast. Lets go back to your comments quoted below. Do you maintain that the judge wasn't in a qualified position to make these observations?

We seem to have reached a situation where you avoid any awkward questions by firing off a few more at me.

Legal student, perhaps?
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 12, 2015, 09:14:32 PM
Back to the helicopter:  there is no rational explanation for giving the Taxi driver the money for the helicopter.   Though it is possible, it is utterly improbable.

Correct. And that is precisely why Dewani did not give Tongo the money for the helicopter.  He put it in an envelope in Anni's handbag.

You really could do with a bit of reading up on the facts.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 12, 2015, 09:35:18 PM
Having you fight his cause must be about as big a Pyrrhic victory as engaging Max Clifford.

Where is your proof he put it in her handbag?

- Without it being the word of a witness of any variety who wasn't previously caught out lying . . .

(Which as far as I can tell, rules out pretty much everyone except the Prostitute).
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 12, 2015, 09:45:25 PM
My friend, if you are finally coming round to the idea of ruling out the word of witnesses who were caught lying, then you have just ruled a line through your own argument. I assume you agree then that Dewani had nothing to do with the crime?
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 12, 2015, 09:47:14 PM
Stick to the facts then:  prove to us he is naive. 

The evidence heard in his trial proves he is naive. I'm not going to spoonfeed you. Read the judgement.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Admin on August 12, 2015, 10:30:28 PM
I would like to create a map showing the various locations in this case. I have been trying to establish the exact corner where the carjack was supposed to have taken place.  According to the official Court Judgement it occurred at the corner of NY008 and NY112.  I have established that the NY112 is Johnson Qona Street in Gugulethu but I have been unable to find an online map which gives the position for the NY008.

Also does anyone have the name of the restaurant in the Strand, Somerset West, where the Dewanis ate that fateful night?

Can anyone help?
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 12, 2015, 10:35:13 PM
I believe it's NY108, not NY008
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Admin on August 12, 2015, 10:36:41 PM
I believe it's NY108, not NY008

Sorry, my typing error, I meant  NY108.  I will give up tonight and have another go tomorrow.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 12, 2015, 10:49:22 PM
I would like to create a map showing the various locations in this case. I have been trying to establish the exact corner where the carjack was supposed to have taken place.  According to the official Court Judgement it occurred at the corner of NY008 and NY112.  I have established that the NY112 is Johnson Qona Street in Gugulethu but I have been unable to find an online map which gives the position for the NY008.

Also does anyone have the name of the restaurant in the Strand, Somerset West, where the Dewanis ate that fateful night?

Can anyone help?

The Government has been much criticised for not bothering to name the streets of townships, so it might not be possible unless it was on the actual highway.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 12, 2015, 10:51:44 PM
My friend, if you are finally coming round to the idea of ruling out the word of witnesses who were caught lying, then you have just ruled a line through your own argument. I assume you agree then that Dewani had nothing to do with the crime?

No, because Dewani has been caught lying.  As you well know.  But firing off that question meant you didn't answer the one requesting proof Dewani put money in Anni's handbag:  please don't distract yourself My Friend.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 12, 2015, 10:52:27 PM
The evidence heard in his trial proves he is naive. I'm not going to spoonfeed you. Read the judgement.

So you can't prove it.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 12, 2015, 10:58:23 PM
Admin:  I can help with a map of all the banks less than 5 minutes' pleasant walk from Dewani's hotel, should he have forgotten to use one at Cape Town Airport to get some local currency - and should he prefer to pay a taxi to drive him on a scenic route to a Bureau de Change so he can hand over the cash to a stranger instead of phoning up and negotiating direct with the helicopter owner and then pay by UK bank card.

I know I'm going to be damned for constantly relating to personal experience, but I have to say as good an exchange rate as any can be had from sticking your UK bank card in an ATM and just drawing out however many rand you need that day if you missed bank opening hours.



[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Anna on August 12, 2015, 10:58:44 PM
Sorry, my typing error, I meant  NY108.  I will give up tonight and have another go tomorrow.

My google earth isn't working but this is the map
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Guguletu,+Cape+Town,+7750,+South+Africa/@-33.9739452,18.5696431,18z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x1dcc451e12077f77:0xad734f03ff900c79
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Admin on August 12, 2015, 11:02:00 PM
My google earth isn't working but this is the map
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Guguletu,+Cape+Town,+7750,+South+Africa/@-33.9739452,18.5696431,18z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x1dcc451e12077f77:0xad734f03ff900c79

Thanks Anna.  The Judgement also refers to Mzoli's place but it is on the NY115 junction with Klipfontein Road.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 12, 2015, 11:05:19 PM
This isn't a bad starting point

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=zvPKlGKHCTLI.km0iiNuRru1M&hl=en_US (https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=zvPKlGKHCTLI.km0iiNuRru1M&hl=en_US)
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Admin on August 12, 2015, 11:11:11 PM
This isn't a bad starting point

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=zvPKlGKHCTLI.km0iiNuRru1M&hl=en_US (https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=zvPKlGKHCTLI.km0iiNuRru1M&hl=en_US)

Blimey Pb, where were you an hour ago?  Thanks.  8((()*/
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Anna on August 12, 2015, 11:18:03 PM
Thanks Anna.  The Judgement also refers to Mzoli's place but it is on the NY115 junction with Klipfontein Road.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Guguletu,+Cape+Town,+7750,+South+Africa/@-33.9765476,18.5701018,19z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x1dcc451e12077f77:0xad734f03ff900c79

http://www.mapquest.com/maps?address=Old+Klipfontein+Road&city=Cape+Town&state=Western+Cape&zipcode=7764&country=ZA&redirect=true#abdcfe9fc23f894038ef18e6


Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 12, 2015, 11:19:45 PM
As a visitor you'd go round perhaps to the shopping centre in Claremont and visit the vinyards in Constantia (which Joe get lots of burglaries and hijackings) then drive without stopping in Muizenburg, which is a bit risky, until you got round to Kalk Bay, then you'd be safe apart from petty theft west of that line.  You'd probably go north to the big shopping mall/cinema/amusement park at Century City.  Apart from that you'd only really head east properly to beyond Cape Flats to go somewhere in the Hottentot Holland Mountains like Stellenbosch or Paarl, which are pretty rural towns with nice markets - Stellenbosch is posh Afrikaner heartland.  Further East is lots of lovely stuff, but it would start being somewhere you would stay the night and not do based from Cape Town.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 12, 2015, 11:20:43 PM
Blimey Pb, where were you an hour ago?  Thanks.  8((()*/

I was listening to a rather long talk about Minecraft, sorry ;-)
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 12, 2015, 11:23:14 PM
Apologies also for epic number of gibberish auto correct and typos like that random 'Joe' that popped up:  my 9 fingered typing is better than my 1, but I can never get near the computer  8(8-))
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 13, 2015, 12:51:18 AM
MZOLI'S

Post-murder vignette from customers:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/9275324.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/9275324.stm)

The Guardian Article again, which also confirms MZOLI's shut at 7pm.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/nov/21/south-africa-gugulethu-tourist-murder (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/nov/21/south-africa-gugulethu-tourist-murder)

It's essentially a 'Braii', which is what South Africans call a BBQ:  places like this often have great live music and can be very atmospheric.  It's bog standard in SA to have a terrace with cheap tables and chairs that immediately abuts to the carpark or dusty road.  Because it's popular with the locals there's probably less chance they will want to mess up their buddy's business so I'd imagine you're safe at it if you're careful how you get to it and are dressed down, which clearly the Dewani's were not.


Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Anna on August 13, 2015, 01:02:27 AM
MZOLI'S

Post-murder vignette from customers:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/9275324.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/9275324.stm)

The Guardian Article again, which also confirms MZOLI's shut at 7pm.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/nov/21/south-africa-gugulethu-tourist-murder (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/nov/21/south-africa-gugulethu-tourist-murder)

It's essentially a 'Braii', which is what South Africans call a BBQ:  places like this often have great live music and can be very atmospheric.  It's bog standard in SA to have a terrace with cheap tables and chairs that immediately abuts to the carpark or dusty road.  Because it's popular with the locals there's probably less chance they will want to mess up their buddy's business so I'd imagine you're safe at it if you're careful how you get to it and are dressed down, which clearly the Dewani's were not.

I found that very interesting PB. Thank you
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 13, 2015, 01:38:15 AM
CAPE TOWN INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT

SOUTH Africa's airports used to be absolutely dire - 1960s Afrikaaner nuclear bunker style architecture and little more than a really old depressing village hall with an old ceiling-fan for aircon and a few trestle tables with locals selling beaded bracelets in the departure lounge, carefully watched by some large sweating uniformed Afrikaaner jobsworths, a loud clock slowly ticking away the huge delays and everyone's lives . . .

But as soon as they won the FIFA World Cup bid they engaged an Italian company to 'make-over' the airports - and the results are absolutely stunning - an absolute pleasure to travel through, large open airy spaces, with almost straight-line people-flows as you are processed walking through from one side of the building to the other.  There are 2 levels:  Departures is on the Top Floor, Arrivals in the bottom.  Your plane parks by the huge double-storey windows at the back of the airport, then you progress through the airport collecting your luggage, quick polite passport check, through the Arrivals Hall where there are desks for all the shuttle-bus companies, a bank, a large Tourist Information Desk and licensed Taxi Drivers are allowed to wait by the door with their cars in the Taxi Rank on the road that sweeps the front of the buildin:  they have ID pinned to them and their cars have license plates on them. 

Like everywhere in RSA there is a strong security presence, which includes patrolling up and down the Taxi rank, weeding out people who shouldn't be there and moving them on.  I spent a vast amount of time waiting at South African Airports (my other half hopped on and off planes like buses - it's actually easier and cheaper than driving to, say Joburg).- it's plain to see that the regular taxi drivers all know each other and the security guys.  In addition there is a police station at the airport and armed police patrolling - I'm not sure if the security guards are also armed (they generally are, or have an armed response unit).

If you have parked your car in the carpark or want to hire a car, you cross over the road for both these.  It is here, in the car park, that illegal taxi drivers hover about - their car won't even be in the car park though.  (This is why I can't understand how Dewani went this far to find a cheap taxi). 

I don't know about now, but back in 2010 the airport was also full of incredibly well trained staff (utterly incredible if you'd seen what SA used to be like!) - they had loads of 'helpers':  if you looked like you might need help they would politely approach you to ask, then turn and hail groups of more helpers waiting alertly at the side who would literally run over and one would get you a trolley, two more would pick up your bags they'd ask where you were going, offer to get you a taxi etc and then personally walk you to your airport destination transporting all your kit for you.  They would uniquivocally not have recommended an illegal taxi tout in the car park.



Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 13, 2015, 02:06:56 AM
CAPE TOWN ATTRACTIONS

The Beaches at Clifton (where I Previously referenced Third Beach) - use the earlier map for bearings, but it's about 10 mins by taxi from the Dewani's hotel:
http://www.capetown.travel/attractions/entry/Clifton (http://www.capetown.travel/attractions/entry/Clifton)

Camps Bay Beach is more populous but has some fab bars and restaurants on the beach for sundowners (the sun literally sets into the sea as the beaches are west-facing - again, about 10mins from the hotel:
http://www.capetown.travel/attractions/entry/Camps_Bay

Table Mountain, again about 10mins or less from their hotel:
http://www.tablemountain.net (http://www.tablemountain.net)

Historic Long Street in the CBD (Central Business District) - still full of authentic 'ordinary' South Africans going about their work, getting their groceries, etc - less than 5 mins from the Hotel, perfectly walkable great security, fantastic live music right down the street, only starts warming up about 11pm.
http://www.getaway.co.za/travel-ideas/things-to-do/things-to-do-long-street-nightlife-cape-town/ (http://www.getaway.co.za/travel-ideas/things-to-do/things-to-do-long-street-nightlife-cape-town/)

A few minutes further and you get to pretty fishing villages at Hout Bay, Chapman's Peak Drive (where exciting car commercials are filmed because of the winding mountainous coast road) etc or you can cut through to Constantia, where wines that would set you back £30 a bottle here sell for a fiver and you can eat fantastic local dishes like Bobotjie with them:
http://www.jonkershuisconstantia.co.za/photo-gallery/?id=14 (http://www.jonkershuisconstantia.co.za/photo-gallery/?id=14)

Or carry on round to Kalk Bay, watch the catch being landed and the ladies de scale it on the key side before it is sold to the local fish restaurants for you to eat
http://www.harbourhouse.co.za (http://www.harbourhouse.co.za)

When you see all this you want to explore it.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 13, 2015, 08:05:56 AM
Passer-by

You are spamming this thread with tens of thousands of words about tourism activities in Cape Town, presumably with the aim of showing that a trip to Gugulethu was not a logical tourist destination for the Dewanis.

Notwithstanding the fact that Cape Town's tourism website promotes Gugulethu as a tourist destination, you have made your point and I don't think anyone in this thread will disagree with you that it was a poor choice considering the many other options available to the Dewanis.

Here is why all of your words are irrelevant. Shrien Dewani was not driving the motor vehicle. He and his wife were sitting in the back seat. Once Tongo had gained their trust as a knowledgeable friendly tour guide, he had only to get them to agree to his suggestions and he had carte blanche to drive them where he wanted, using whichever route he wanted. As tourists they would have been oblivious to the appropriateness of Tongo's choice of route. On the fatal trip back from the Surfside restaurant, Tongo did not even require the Dewanis' agreement to his suggestion to see some township nightlife. Even if they had demanded to be driven directly home, Tongo was still in control and could have chosen a route that intersected with the agreed hijack spot with the Dewanis being none the wiser.

You can start another thread for all your Cape Town tourism information. It is not relevant to this one.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 13, 2015, 08:30:31 AM
To correct a previous post. I stated that the helicopter money was in Anni's handbag. There is no definitive proof that this is the case and I should not have stated it as a fact. There is conjecture as to where the money was located. Dewani's plea statement claims that it was in Anni's handbag but this claim was never tested so cannot be taken as fact. Qwabe gave different stories in his testimony in Mngeni and Dewani trials. Mngeni's initial confession claimed that Qwabe was in a struggle with Anni for her handbag when he accidentally shot her. The money has never been found but given the other evidence it seems probable that Qwabe took the handbag from Anni, removed the money and chucked the bag. It was found empty in a a field nearby. 

What is known with absolute certainty is that Dewani did not give the helicopter money to Tongo. This was the original point being made, in agreement with Passer-by who claimed that it would have been highly improbable for Dewani to have done so.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 13, 2015, 09:27:47 AM
@dewanifacts

Your item #40 under the heading 'Claims proven beyond reasonable doubt to be TRUE'.


In the last paragraph you have entered into a speculation which is inappropriate.

Thanks for the feedback, John. I'll have a chat with the other guys and see what they think. There was some debate amongst us regarding how to present that particular point. Its such a crucial one and remains so difficult to explain that we felt that it required some fleshing out so that an uninitiated reader would be able to understand the context. Since we have begun expanding on some of the points in separate blog posts, I think we will likely run with your suggested amendment and link to a blog post for further information and analysis.

Thanks again for your feedback. It is appreciated.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 13, 2015, 09:38:36 AM
The evidence both for and against Dewani is largely circumstantial so I can 'spam' this thread with as much background knowledge to help other people get a balanced picture of what millions of other tourists have done as I see fit.

You really are terribly dictatorial as well as patronising and frequently factually inaccurate.  Trying to get dissenters disqualified on a legal technicality might have got Dewani out of hot water in court, but this isn't a court.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 13, 2015, 09:39:37 AM
Thanks for the feedback, John. I'll have a chat with the other guys and see what they think. There was some debate amongst us regarding how to present that particular point. Its such a crucial one and remains so difficult to explain that we felt that it required some fleshing out so that an uninitiated reader would be able to understand the context. Since we have begun expanding on some of the points in separate blog posts, I think we will likely run with your suggested amendment and link to a blog post for further information and analysis.

Thanks again for your feedback. It is appreciated.

Oh, 'fleshing out' is allowed now is it?
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 13, 2015, 10:02:24 AM
I will not be drawn further into petty debate, Passer-by.

Your opinion is very clear. Dewani was a duplicitous, adulterous gay man who deceived his wife and allowed a taxi driver to take them to a dangerous part of South Africa and you therefore believe that it is inconceivable that he was not in some way involved in her murder.

It is your prerogative to hold such a view, however it is other posters' prerogative to hold you to account for that view.

Might I remind you that in addition to Dewani who was alleged to have been involved, there are four other known conspirators, and one who is unknown. In addition to your lack of knowledge about the facts of the case, you seem to possess a very small threshold of interest for questioning and analysing the story told by the other conspirators (namely Tongo, Mbolombo and Qwabe), whilst focusing solely on trying to discredit the one conspirator who has been acquitted of any involvement.

Is there a reason for your steadfast refusal to address the deficiencies in the hitman story as told by those conspirators?

Reply 99 on page 7 of this thread set out a few specific examples of the deception of these criminals, to which John admitted there was no argument. What is your view on the points set out in that post? 

You have made a point of hammering home your wish for me to answer your every question (which I have done) but the many questions that I have put to you have gone unanswered.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 13, 2015, 10:05:37 AM
The evidence both for and against Dewani is largely circumstantial so I can 'spam' this thread

Item 6 on the "Baseless" page of our site addresses your incorrect statement that there was circumstantial evidence of Dewani's guilt. 

https://dewanifacts.wordpress.com/baseless/

The case for Dewani's innocence is not at all circumstantial. It is based on hard irrefutable evidence that the criminals made up the hitman story to incriminate him. 

Read the judgement. The facts on our site are not made up. Most of them come straight from the judgement which is transparent, detailed and well reasoned by a senior South African judge. 
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Angelo222 on August 13, 2015, 11:48:45 AM
Item 6 on the "Baseless" page of our site addresses your incorrect statement that there was circumstantial evidence of Dewani's guilt. 

https://dewanifacts.wordpress.com/baseless/

The case for Dewani's innocence is not at all circumstantial. It is based on hard irrefutable evidence that the criminals made up the hitman story to incriminate him. 

Read the judgement. The facts on our site are not made up. Most of them come straight from the judgement which is transparent, detailed and well reasoned by a senior South African judge.

The only person who had contact with Dewani was Zolo Tongo so any conviction relied upon his (Tongo) evidence being credible.  In the event his evidence was so bad that it was incoherent at times according to the judge.

I agree there are unanswered questions DF and point out that Dewani has had ample opportunity to tell the Hindocha family what happened yet he avoids doing so.

Is that the actions of a caring man, an honourable man or an innocent man?
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 13, 2015, 01:19:12 PM
The only person who had contact with Dewani was Zolo Tongo so any conviction relied upon his (Tongo) evidence being credible.  In the event his evidence was so bad that it was incoherent at times according to the judge.

This is mostly correct but it begs some expansion.

Zola Tongo's evidence was not simply "bad" and incoherent. Everyone is human. Tongo was recalling incidents that took place four years prior. He made many errors and "mistakes" whilst testifying and they did make him appear unreliable as a witness, however those "mistakes" did not make him a liar, nor did they prove Dewani's innocence.

What proved Tongo to be a liar and Dewani innocent, were the significant fabrications and deceptive lies that he told, every one of which was designed to incriminate Dewani and deflect blame from himself. Those are the judge's observations not mine.

You can ditto what I've said above for Qwabe and Mbolombo who were both caught in similar instances of deception whilst testifying.

Once the hitman story is removed from the equation, Dewani is an innocent man, albeit an adulterous one who was living a bisexual double life that he hid from his wife.



I agree there are unanswered questions DF and point out that Dewani has had ample opportunity to tell the Hinfocha family what happened yet he avoids doing so.

Is that the actions of a caring man, an honourable man or an innocent man?

I concur that they may well be the actions of a man who is neither caring, nor honourable. There may also be other reasons for his silence that have nothing to do with those labels. None of us know whether he has or has not approached the Hindocha family to provide further explanation. Maybe he has written them an email or a letter and none of us know about it. Might I remind you that a week after the murder, he did in fact sit down with the entire family and tell them his side of the story and they secretly recorded the meeting and gave the tape to the police. Its possible that this incident may have made Dewani somewhat less willing to sit down and talk to them.

If I were in his position, I think I would want to get my side of the story out. As  I said in response to Mercury earlier in the thread, there could be numerous reasons why he stays silent. It may be that he thinks that whatever he says will be dismissed by those who believe in his guilt. People would say he's had five years to come up with whatever story he tells. If he reads forums such as this one, he would be well founded in such a belief. One only need look at the strong views held by so many people who have never taken the time to actually familiarise themselves with the judgement which is the single best repository of facts on this case.

One of the reasons we set up our DF site, was because it seemed apparent that many of those who followed the trial heard the verdict, spat their coffee out in disgust, never bothered to actually read the well reasoned judgement document (http://www.saflii.org/za/cases/ZAWCHC/2014/188.html), decided that Dewani had  gotten away with murder, and promptly forgot about achieving some justice for the unfortunate young lady who lost her life and who had been so tragically let down by the police and judicial system in South Africa.

The progress of this thread bears testament to this analysis. There appears to be somewhat of a shift toward understanding the facts of the case better and if we can take some responsibility for that, then it lends credibility to our site and our mission. For that we are grateful and we hope that with the fullness of time, we can build enough pressure on SA authorities that they are forced to prosecute Mbolombo and revisit the plea deals struck with Tongo and Qwabe who clearly breached the condition upon which those deals were struck. Truth.

 
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Angelo222 on August 13, 2015, 01:29:56 PM
Dewani is not prevented from speaking out yet he fails to do so.  One would have thought that a money-driven young executive like him would want to give an exclusive to some Sunday tabloid and make a few quid.

On the other hand he managed to wangle out of testifying at his trial so keeping stoosh would appear to be a policy of damage limitation.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Angelo222 on August 13, 2015, 01:35:53 PM
I note the 4th man has never been identified, I believe someone referred to him or her as Mr Big.  No doubt the three involved in the conspiracy who have all done deals with the State will have been threatened to keep quiet about him/her.

My own view is that this character holds the key to this case so all the more shocking that the SAP don't appear to have found him or if they have aren't divulging it to the outside world.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 13, 2015, 05:38:47 PM
Still wading through Dewanifacts' blog and will most definitely post specific remarks on specific points when I can get to a real keyboard.

In the meantime, I think this is very enlightening: 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12229112 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12229112)

3 days after Anni was killed a BBC journalist was given an on-the-spot interview by Dewani.


Shrien and Anni Dewani

The first call I received about the Dewanis was the day after Anni had been killed. It was a Sunday and I was the correspondent on call in Johannesburg.  Initial reports were that a British woman had been murdered on honeymoon in Cape Town. It was potentially a very big story.

Then it emerged that Anni Dewani was a Swedish national and that her husband was British.  After a series of discussions with producers in London it was decided that the story was no longer of major interest to a UK audience. So that day the story went unreported on the BBC.  When the newspapers came out on Monday morning it was clear that a mistake had been made. Anni Dewani may have been Swedish but she was living in Bristol and the tragedy of this honeymoon murder had clearly struck an emotional chord.

We spent the day catching-up as we pieced together the couple's last movements on that fateful Saturday night.
One question already stood out. Why did they decide to drive through the township of Gugulethu late at night?

'Informed decision'

The next day I had a chance to find out for myself. I was despatched to Cape Town to follow up on a story.
I headed for the luxury Cape Grace Hotel where the honeymoon couple had stayed and where members of both Shrien and Anni Dewani's family had now gathered.

It was a scene that does the journalism profession no credit. With the grieving family seated in the restaurant area, reporters loitered anxiously in the lobby or nearby on the balcony.  All but one of them had been rebuffed in their attempts to speak to Shrien Dewani about what had happened three days before.

So it was with some trepidation that I placed my business card on the Dewani's table, introduced myself and prepared to leave.  To my surprise Shrien Dewani did want to talk to the BBC. It was clear he had been closely following coverage of the murder and was angry.  He told me that he wanted me to correct all the inaccuracies that existed on the BBC website about events the night Anni died. I pulled out my notebook and sat next to him.

First and foremost he was upset that I had in my TV report called their decision to take a night-time drive into Gugulethu a "big mistake".  Shrien Dewani said that it had been an "impulsive" decision but it had been an informed one.

Mr Dewani said he knew Africa well and that they had in fact driven through Gugulethu twice that night. Once on the way to a dinner in Somerset West and once fatefully on the way back.  Shrien Dewani then told me that it was Anni who wanted to go to the township a second time. He told me, as he had said to another journalist, that she wanted to see the "real Africa".

As you can see, I regard the bold italics bits as significant because (a) he told the press immediately after the event a different story to the one he later made in his Plea Statement to the Court where he alleged it was the Taxi Driver's idea not Anni's and (b) the whole description of him and what he says makes him sound very far from, as Dewanifacts keeps subjectively speculating, naive.

And I have no reason to disbelieve what I always found to be excellent news reporting by the BBC Worldwide Africa, which is based out of Joburg.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 13, 2015, 06:28:24 PM
The issue of Dewani's changing story regarding "the real Africa" is dealt with in item Baseless (25) - https://dewanifacts.wordpress.com/baseless/

Whatever one thinks of that discrepancy, it doesn't explain the deceptive lies told under oath by the criminals and those are really where your focus should rest, Passer-by. You have clearly devoted many hours and many words to scrutinising every aspect of Dewani's life. Some of that focus needs to be diverted to the criminals at some stage, I would suggest, if you are looking to assess things fairly.

If those lies under oath cannot be explained then its game over for the hitman theory.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Angelo222 on August 13, 2015, 06:29:31 PM
The BBC's Johannesburg correspondent Jonah Fisher did a really good job in getting that interview for the record from Shrien Dewani before his story had time to morph into something else.

The driving through a squalid shantytown once was bad enough but twice within hours and a mere day after arriving?  It just doesn't make any sense, the main road back to the Cape Grace Hotel from Somerset West was the fastest safest arterial route yet they went off into the dark and Dewani said nothing??  So much for knowing Africa!
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: John on August 13, 2015, 06:47:23 PM
The BBC's Johannesburg correspondent Jonah Fisher did a really good job in getting that interview for the record from Shrien Dewani before his story had time to morph into something else.

The driving through a squalid shantytown once was bad enough but twice within hours and a mere day after arriving?  It just doesn't make any sense, the main road back to the Cape Grace Hotel from Somerset West was the fastest safest arterial route yet they went off into the dark and Dewani said nothing??  So much for knowing Africa!

I tend to agree, I spent quite a bit of time in Kenya and The Gambia on several occasions some years ago and would never have drempt of leaving the hotel complex at night to go to a shantytown unless I was accompanied by my personal runner whom I knew and trusted.  I am not familiar with South Africa but it cannot be that different surely?
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 13, 2015, 07:15:01 PM
The issue of Dewani's changing story regarding "the real Africa" is dealt with in item Baseless (25) - https://dewanifacts.wordpress.com/baseless/

Whatever one thinks of that discrepancy, it doesn't explain the deceptive lies told under oath by the criminals and those are really where your focus should rest, Passer-by. You have clearly devoted many hours and many words to scrutinising every aspect of Dewani's life. Some of that focus needs to be diverted to the criminals at some stage, I would suggest, if you are looking to assess things fairly.

If those lies under oath cannot be explained then its game over for the hitman theory.

Thanks:  I don't need to be told where my focus should rest, I prefer to stay open-minded and examine everything in the case, not just what you dictate.  As I have never doubted the 3 who were tried and found guilty were involved in Anni's murder I really don't need to be told to shift my focus off Dewani on to them - as I have previously stated that's what I believe your agenda is.

Let us examine what a 'fact' is.  If Mr A tells a court that xyz happened, it is a fact that Mr A told the court it had happened - a room full of credible witnesses heard it and recorded it.  It does not mean that xyz actually happened - only that Mr A said it did.  A lot of your 'facts' seem to be reiterating what someone who later contradicts themselves, or is proven a liar, said *on oath* (as though that lends it some kind of weight - it doesn't) in court. 

For Mr A's assertion in court to become a fact, it has to be corroborated:  someone has to find extra evidence that it is true.  Excellent evidence would be an irrefutable recording that the court can watch or listen to - CCTV footage, a recorded phone call, an email.  Also good is another independent witness who attests they saw xyz happen too.  An accomplice to the crime is not an independent witness:  an independent witness is someone like a waiter in a restaurant, with no connection to Mr A or xyz.

Next up in a court of law is circumstantial evidence:  this less evidence which is given to establish whether it is likely xyz happened.  Go and google it and you will find it is valid evidence.

You keep saying the 3 murderers saying xyz in court is a 'fact' when it is not.  And you keep trying to rubbish my circumstantial evidence which fairly strongly suggests Dewani is complicit.

Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 13, 2015, 07:29:27 PM
There is a big difference between background information and circumstantial evidence.

Many a strong criminal case has been built on circumstantial evidence alone. It is undoubtedly valid evidence.

None of your information about cape town tourism is evidence. It is just background information.  If it was evidence then you would have been called as a witness in Mngeni and Dewani trials. 
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 13, 2015, 07:29:52 PM
I note from the top of Traverso's judgement:

"If, at the close of the case for the prosecution at any trial, the court is of the opinion that there is no evidence that the accused committed the offence referred to in the charge or any offence of which he may be convicted on the charge, it may return a verdict of not guilty.”

[7] It is well established that “no evidence” does not mean no evidence at all, but rather no evidence on which a reasonable court, acting carefully, might convict1.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 13, 2015, 07:36:50 PM

 A lot of your 'facts' seem to be reiterating what someone who later contradicts themselves, or is proven a liar, said *on oath* (as though that lends it some kind of weight - it doesn't) in court. 


I am surprised to hear that you have found such content on our site.  We are very keen to rectify any such errors so your help in pointing this out is much appreciated.

Could you please let us know exactly where we have stated something as factual with no basis other than the fact that it was said under oath.  Please provide both the text and the item numbers as other people have done when suggesting amendments.

Thanks

Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 13, 2015, 07:48:09 PM
There is a big difference between background information and circumstantial evidence.

Many a strong criminal case has been built on circumstantial evidence alone. It is undoubtedly valid evidence.

None of your information about cape town tourism is evidence. It is just background information.  If it was evidence then you would have been called as a witness in Mngeni and Dewani trials.

Don't be ridiculous:  even Dewani wasn't. 

It was acknowledged to be a something of a farce.  I'm guessing you didn't sit in a South African courtroom on your holiday so haven't seen the massive disparity between the low-grade, low-paid humble-background black prosecution lawyers and the highly-paid top-of-society white defence lawyers who run rings round them.  Legal cases are not about who is right and who is wrong:  they are about who is smartest.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 13, 2015, 07:55:24 PM
Doesn't apply to this case. Dealt with in item Baseless (8) - https://dewanifacts.wordpress.com/baseless/

The NPA spared no expense on this trial. Wasted a fortune of SA taxpayers' money.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 13, 2015, 08:29:45 PM
I am surprised to hear that you have found such content on our site.  We are very keen to rectify any such errors so your help in pointing this out is much appreciated.

Could you please let us know exactly where we have stated something as factual with no basis other than the fact that it was said under oath.  Please provide both the text and the item numbers as other people have done when suggesting amendments.

Thanks

I didn't reference your website, I was talking about on here.  I find it really tedious that you just keep telling everyone to go and look it up in your website rather than you coming up with the evidence.

As you couldn't be bothered to copy across what No 25 of your 'Baseless' list says, I will do it for you:

"Shrien Dewani’s “changing” versions of events are proof that he was complicit in the hijacking operation. Despite Dewani’s version of events being materially consistent for 4 years, much has been made of the fact that Shrien Dewani gave slightly varying explanations for whose idea it was to visit the townships. In his initial statement, he said that Anni wanted to see “the real Africa” whilst in later interviews he intimated that Tongo suggested a township visit and Anni agreed to it. His initial statement was interpreted by some to be designed to “protect” Tongo from suspicion. Given the totality of the evidence proves Dewani’s innocence, it is clear that the discrepancy in Dewani’s accounts, is due to him having difficulty recalling the precise details of the conversation. This simply reinforces what we already know about victims of traumatic incidents such as carjackings; they are likely to have trouble recalling some or all details. Variances are to be expected. In fact, if accounts were identical it would raise a red flag and suggest a rehearsed or coached statement."

Why did you put 'changing' in inverted commas?  It is a fact that his version of events changed:  I have just given you a credible independent witness in the form of a BBC reporter who he gave an interview to 3 days after Anni's death.  Therefore Dewani's version of events has not remained unchanged for 4 years - and that's without even considering the developments about money for a helicopter trips. 

You have deliberately tried to soften the fact that Dewani unequivocally changed his story by suggesting it was an unimportant detail -  you call it "slightly varying explanations" when in fact it is deeply significant.  If it was, as Dewani is recorded as saying, a spontaneous trip and Anni's idea to go to the Township, the Taxidriver could not have prearranged with the 2 murderers to hijack the car.  As I have provided you with clear evidence that he actually demanded a BBC reporter take this down 3 days after the event I think we can dismiss all your baseless speculation that the poor petal having trouble recalling the details.

I look forward to you, at the very least, moving this item to your 'credible' list.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 13, 2015, 08:34:08 PM
I might also add that the totality of evidence does not prove his innocence.  In court the prosecution could not prove his guilt  - which is a completely different matter.  It is the big gulf between the 2 that we are debating here.

The court didn't even examine all the 'evidence':  it didn't even hear evidence from a key witness - Dewani - for the slightly odd reason that he might implicate himself so had better say nothing. 



Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 13, 2015, 08:39:44 PM
Doesn't apply to this case. Dealt with in item Baseless (8) - https://dewanifacts.wordpress.com/baseless/

The NPA spared no expense on this trial. Wasted a fortune of SA taxpayers' money.

Spared no expense is a ridiculous statement:  State Lawyers aren't paid as much as private ones and unlike the private ones - who are reeling in massive fees based on hours worked, profile of case, how rich the client is - state lawyers are paid a flat salary.  Surely you can work out that the smartest lawyers are able to command a higher fee, leaving the lower-quality lawyers working for the State?  They start their training at birth:  the kid from a family of rich white lawyers has a distinct head-start over the black kids whose village pulled together to fund him going to school.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 13, 2015, 08:48:57 PM
This is mostly correct but it begs some expansion.

Zola Tongo's evidence was not simply "bad" and incoherent. Everyone is human. Tongo was recalling incidents that took place four years prior. He made many errors and "mistakes" whilst testifying and they did make him appear unreliable as a witness, however those "mistakes" did not make him a liar, nor did they prove Dewani's innocence.

What proved Tongo to be a liar and Dewani innocent, were the significant fabrications and deceptive lies that he told, every one of which was designed to incriminate Dewani and deflect blame from himself. Those are the judge's observations not mine, before you go into pitbull mode Passer-by.

You can ditto what I've said above for Qwabe and Mbolombo who were both caught in similar instances of deception whilst testifying.

Once the hitman story is removed from the equation, Dewani is an innocent man, albeit an adulterous one who was living a bisexual double life that he hid from his wife.


I concur that they may well be the actions of a man who is neither caring, nor honourable. There may also be other reasons for his silence that have nothing to do with those labels. None of us know whether he has or has not approached the Hindocha family to provide further explanation. Maybe he has written them an email or a letter and none of us know about it. Might I remind you that a week after the murder, he did in fact sit down with the entire family and tell them his side of the story and they secretly recorded the meeting and gave the tape to the police. Its possible that this incident may have made Dewani somewhat less willing to sit down and talk to them.

If I were in his position, I think I would want to get my side of the story out. As  I said in response to Mercury earlier in the thread, there could be numerous reasons why he stays silent. It may be that he thinks that whatever he says will be dismissed by those who believe in his guilt. People would say he's had five years to come up with whatever story he tells. If he reads forums such as this one, he would be well founded in such a belief. One only need look at the strong views held by so many people who have never taken the time to actually familiarise themselves with the judgement which is the single best repository of facts on this case.

One of the reasons we set up our DF site, was because it seemed apparent that many of those who followed the trial heard the verdict, spat their coffee out in disgust, never bothered to actually read the well reasoned judgement document (http://www.saflii.org/za/cases/ZAWCHC/2014/188.html), decided that Dewani had  gotten away with murder, and promptly forgot about achieving some justice for the unfortunate young lady who lost her life and who had been so tragically let down by the police and judicial system in South Africa.

The progress of this thread bears testament to this analysis. There appears to be somewhat of a shift toward understanding the facts of the case better and if we can take some responsibility for that, then it lends credibility to our site and our mission. For that we are grateful and we hope that with the fullness of time, we can build enough pressure on SA authorities that they are forced to prosecute Mbolombo and revisit the plea deals struck with Tongo and Qwabe who clearly breached the condition upon which those deals were struck. Truth.

Please substantiate the claim he is bisexual.  We know he is gay:  he has admitted to seeing a gay prostitute - in other words his lawyers agreed in court this is a fact - and we also know as a fact from computer records that he visited gay bondage sites right after his wife died.  We also know he never consummated his marriage with Anni and his previous engagement was also not consummated.  No other girlfriend has ever come forward.  I see no evidence for him being bisexual.  This is important, because a bisexual man could have continued be happily married and have children, whereas a gay man could not, and this is pertinent to motive.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 13, 2015, 09:04:15 PM
I didn't reference your website, I was talking about on here.  I find it really tedious that you just keep telling everyone to go and look it up in your website rather than you coming up with the evidence.

As you couldn't be bothered to copy across what No 25 of your 'Baseless' list says, I will do it for you:

"Shrien Dewani’s “changing” versions of events are proof that he was complicit in the hijacking operation. Despite Dewani’s version of events being materially consistent for 4 years, much has been made of the fact that Shrien Dewani gave slightly varying explanations for whose idea it was to visit the townships. In his initial statement, he said that Anni wanted to see “the real Africa” whilst in later interviews he intimated that Tongo suggested a township visit and Anni agreed to it. His initial statement was interpreted by some to be designed to “protect” Tongo from suspicion. Given the totality of the evidence proves Dewani’s innocence, it is clear that the discrepancy in Dewani’s accounts, is due to him having difficulty recalling the precise details of the conversation. This simply reinforces what we already know about victims of traumatic incidents such as carjackings; they are likely to have trouble recalling some or all details. Variances are to be expected. In fact, if accounts were identical it would raise a red flag and suggest a rehearsed or coached statement."

Why did you put 'changing' in inverted commas?  It is a fact that his version of events changed:  I have just given you a credible independent witness in the form of a BBC reporter who he gave an interview to 3 days after Anni's death.  Therefore Dewani's version of events has not remained unchanged for 4 years - and that's without even considering the developments about money for a helicopter trips. 

You have deliberately tried to soften the fact that Dewani unequivocally changed his story by suggesting it was an unimportant detail -  you call it "slightly varying explanations" when in fact it is deeply significant.  If it was, as Dewani is recorded as saying, a spontaneous trip and Anni's idea to go to the Township, the Taxidriver could not have prearranged with the 2 murderers to hijack the car.  As I have provided you with clear evidence that he actually demanded a BBC reporter take this down 3 days after the event I think we can dismiss all your baseless speculation that the poor petal having trouble recalling the details.

I look forward to you, at the very least, moving this item to your 'credible' list.

I will discuss with the others whether the quotation marks should be removed. The fact is that his entire version of events remained materially consistent over 4 years with the exception of one or two details such as the car exit and who suggested the township visit first out of Tongo and Anni. As mentioned in the quote from our site, such discrepancies are entirely what one would expect from a victim of a hugely traumatic incident.

I am sorry but I cannot understand what point you are trying to make in your last paragraph.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 13, 2015, 09:06:30 PM
Please substantiate the claim he is bisexual.  We know he is gay:  he has admitted to seeing a gay prostitute - in other words his lawyers agreed in court this is a fact - and we also know as a fact from computer records that he visited gay bondage sites right after his wife died.  We also know he never consummated his marriage with Anni and his previous engagement was also not consummated.  No other girlfriend has ever come forward.  I see no evidence for him being bisexual.  This is important, because a bisexual man could have continued be happily married and have children, whereas a gay man could not, and this is pertinent to motive.

Lets see if a poster other than myself can point out the multiple factual errors and logic errors in this post.......
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: mercury on August 13, 2015, 09:15:00 PM
Can I just say DF that a PR campaign can often be hoisted by its own petard? IE Even if someone is innocent, the very fact anyone is tryng to drum that into anyone is cause for concern. Innocent people do not need PR gurus IMO, they actually make them look guilty by their massaging of the facts. Im sure yu are intelligent enough to know this as well.

There, that feels better.

 8()-000(
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 13, 2015, 09:35:06 PM
There is a big difference between background information and circumstantial evidence.

Many a strong criminal case has been built on circumstantial evidence alone. It is undoubtedly valid evidence.

None of your information about cape town tourism is evidence. It is just background information.  If it was evidence then you would have been called as a witness in Mngeni and Dewani trials.

I love the way you narrowed it to just mu circumstantial evidence about Cape Town Tourism  @)(++(*

On this thread I have posted detailed information about what MILLIONS of other tourists have done and posted links to credible newspaper stories which clearly illustrate going to MZOLI's is a very minority tourist thing to do and millions of tourists have not done it.  I have even posted irrefutable evidence that MZOLI's shut an hour before the Dewani's left their hotel, so they could not have been planning to visit it.

I have also poste detailed information about booking a helicopter trip.  I have shown that there is a Tourist Information desk at the airport and at the V&A by the hotel which both book the helicopter trips, even if someone accustomed to 5 star hotels where you just get the Concierge to do everything for you forgot to ask them.  I have posted a map showing where the hotel is and where the helicopters are to illustrate it is a short pleasant walk between the two and it nuts to suggest you'd take longer driving it or would give a taxi driver the cash to drive round and organise it.  I have also pointed out that you can just pick up the phone in the room, speak to the helicopter pilot yourself and pay over the phone with your UK credit card, just as you would here.

I have posted a map with all the banks and ATMs in the V&A so you can see he was only a minute's walk from the nearest and had no need to vanish for 45 minutes with the Taxi Driver allegedly to change money at an illegal money changer - which SO unfortunately left him with no proof he changed any cash so we only know he was alone with the Taxi driver for 45mins whilst Anni was at the pool on the day of the murder and we have no proof what they were doing.

I have posted detailed information about Cape Town airport - way beyond the knowledge of a tourist, because my husband flew so much I also spent hours every week parked outside with the taxi drivers and at various times parked my car in the carpark - so know that's how far you have to go to find an illegal taxi - hired cars, took hotel shuttles and jumped in taxis.

I have posted an interactive Google Map which marks out the key points on Anni's last journey, with a picture of each place and a description.

I have given detailed descriptions of what, as a resident of Cape Town, the local perception of that Township, area is and given the gauge that I, as someone not afraid to travel alone all over South Africa including through other townships, would not want to go to that one even accompanied by armed ex-special forces friends.  I have made the analogy of it being like staying at the Savoy but ignoring London nightlife and going to look at something like Elephant and Castle, but at the distance of Brighton, to give a proper idea of the likelihood of someone wanting to do it, and I have posted a photo of the route from the airport to show Anni would have seen what Townships looked like before she set out in a sparkly cocktail dress that evening allegedly to visit one.

I have given links and pictures of MZOLI's so you can gauge for yourself whether Anni was in fact dressed in anticipation of visiting a roadside Barbecue.

I have expanded your knowledge of the culture and history of South Africa so will understand just how uneducated and unsophisticated the bottom of the pile is to show you who had the upper hand when it came to scheming, lying and deceiving people because it really is unlikely a man like Tongo has manipulated a man like Dewani and not the other way round.

I have shared my experiences of conducting business in South Africa to show how dishonest the whole lot are, so there is nothing unusual about the other 3 constantly changing their stories.

But you don't reply to any of these hugely informative posts:  you just label them as 'tourist information' and ignore them then refer people back to your blog and insist the only evidence that counts is what was said in court.  You dismiss everything that was not in court, even though your own blog elaborately weaves a highly subjective story.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 13, 2015, 09:48:56 PM
I will discuss with the others whether the quotation marks should be removed. The fact is that his entire version of events remained materially consistent over 4 years with the exception of one or two details such as the car exit and who suggested the township visit first out of Tongo and Anni. As mentioned in the quote from our site, such discrepancies are entirely what one would expect from a victim of a hugely traumatic incident.

I am sorry but I cannot understand what point you are trying to make in your last paragraph.

You completely ignored the FACT that these very MAJOR changes in his story indicate (a) he is lying and (b) the hijack could not have been arranged if the visit to the Township was spontaneous and Anni's idea.

It is plain as a pike staff the story was meant to be 'we were hijacked on our way back from Strand'.  Go and Google Strand as you don't like me telling you 'tourism facts'.  She was clearly dressed for dinner at what she imagined a night out in Strand would be like.  Someone - almost certainly Max Clifford - later pointed out you can drive to Strand perfectly safely on the highway without getting hijacked, so there had to be a reason why they weren't on the highway - he said it was Anni's idea to throw suspicion off everyone else, but then the other 3 were arrested and he had to shift the blame or look like he was part of it.

My last paragraph refers to your blog:  I have proved this is not 'baseless' so should not be in that list.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 13, 2015, 10:47:19 PM
Can I just say DF that a PR campaign can often be hoisted by its own petard? IE Even if someone is innocent, the very fact anyone is tryng to drum that into anyone is cause for concern. Innocent people do not need PR gurus IMO, they actually make them look guilty by their massaging of the facts. Im sure yu are intelligent enough to know this as well.

There, that feels better.

 8()-000(

We're not in the slightest concerned about being hoisted by any petard as we aren't a PR outfit. Of the long diatribe posted above, not one ounce constitutes evidence. If it was, then it would have been introduced by the prosecutors as part of their case with a witness or witnesses providing the court with testimony as to what tourists do, where they change money, how easy it is to find helicopters and other such information.

Passer-by.  Anni told her cousin Sneha that the sex with Dewani was ok but not as good as with her ex. They consumated the marriage on a number of occasions, just not on the wedding night (allegedly).

Only Dewani can know if he likes women as well as men. See Baseless (11).

As for the part about a bi man being able to happily live with a family whilst a gay man couldn't? If you believe this to be an accurate statement then far be it from me to try to teach you otherwise. Good luck with life!
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 14, 2015, 01:35:48 AM
So let's have a look at it:  it purports to want Justice for Anni, but unfortunately it has a huge amount of ranting about a people who call themselves 'Justice4Anni' - even an 'open letter' to them.  For a site that wants Justice for Anni in the form of jailing several South Africans, I'm surprised the site is completely bereft of any links to South Africa, no campaign address to write to, no petition to sign, no background information, no profiles of the individuals, no maps:  it's just a numbered list of items you have rather boldly called 'facts'.  Let's examine them.

Claims Proven Beyond Reasonable Doubt to be TRUE

Speculation and/or Subjective Opinion:

4, 5 uses the cover-all term 'reputable' because there has been legal dissent 6, 7, 8, 9, 33 - the evidence of the 3 witness was considered utterly unreliable for the prosecution, and therefore the same holds true for the defence, 34, 35, 40 - everything after the first sentence, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 58, 59.

In particular, points 50-59 seem to be some personal vendetta against a group called 'Justice4Anni' which has no bearing whatsoever on the crime.

I note that in point 9 it states the hitman story was fabricated to incriminate Dewani, yet in the quote from the judgement below it just demonstrates that "so many mistakes, lies and consistencies that one simply cannot know where the lies end and the truth begins" and that "all three witnesses  . . . capable of attempting to twist their version to implicate the accused" - that is much less clear cut than 'the hitman story was fabricated to incriminate Dewani".

27 is conjecture not proved beyond reasonable doubt - and she could have seen the gun pointed at her and put her hand up in defence.  An execution can be planned but still badly executed.

36:  "in the weeks following the murder [followed by more subjectivity] the Dewani Family appointed Max Clifford" - incorrect:  they appointed him 10 days after the murder, you need to knock the 's' off the overstated weeks of negative press sentiment.

So of your 59 claims *proven beyond reasonable doubt to be TRUE* 25 of them are speculation, your own subjective opinion, inaccurate or irrelevant.

Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 14, 2015, 01:43:20 AM
I should have added point 41:  it gives the impression that the tip of ZAR15,000 left for the staff of the Cape Grace was inside a thank-you card - in fact when he paid his bill by credit card (some might say in the same manner he should have paid for a helicopter trip) he just doubled his bill and said half was a tip:  he didn't put the money physically into their hands.  As I believe is noted elsewhere, the packet of Thank You cards can be seen in the white CNA bag leaving the hotel with Tongo.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 14, 2015, 02:02:20 AM
Claims Supported By Credible Evidence

Speculation and/or Subjective Opinion:

2, 5 - I've seen no evidence he gave thank you cards to the staff (you have no evidence at all anywhere on your site) and the end of the last sentence is in itself subjective, and clearly the pizza party wasn't just 'deemed' insensitive it actually was, 6 - the opening of last sentence is subjective, 7, 8, 9 - whilst it is fact that he changed his story about his exit from the car, it is speculation that he did so to cover for cowardice, 10, 11, 13, 14 - what was in the bag and what Tongo May or may not have realised and then done are just conjecture.

12 SAPS was trying follow the correct procedures, it is your conjecture why they chose not to interview him in the UK, just as it's our conjecture why he didn't take the witness stand at his own trial.

15 is utterly unremarkable:  until trackers came in all company vehicles were 'borrowed' at night and weekends:  one of the reasons for high RTAs used to be all the unlit cars crawling along at night trying not to draw attention to themselves.

So at least 11 of of your 15 Claims Supported By Credible Evidence are speculation or subjective opinion and incredibly you provide no supporting evidence.  Take a leaf out of some of the cases on this site, which have maps, links to press articles, copies of witness statements etc. 
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 14, 2015, 02:34:41 AM
Claims Proven Beyond Ressonable Doubt to be FALSE

Speculative and/or subjective opinion:

4, 7 and 9

With regard to 8:  it is worth noting that Golden Touch is a jewellers, not a money-changer - however it trades gold.  It is literally 5 steps from a major branch of First National Bank in the CBD, where there are many other banks and places to change money.  The owner of the shop did not record the transaction, which is illegal.  The area is still mostly for working black people and is full of signs and people handing out flyers saying 'we pay cash for gold'.  South Africa has a limit on how many rands its citizens can take out of the country each year: it's well known that instead they used to fly out wearring expensive jewelry and come back without it.  I had to fill in forms and provide proof of purchase for my own jewelry on one occasion.  It's also well known the area's 'antique' jewellers sell items that are being fenced. Tongo screwed up his evidence:  he said Dewani had asked to go somewhere he didn't need his passport to change money, then he wasn't sure exactly what he said. 

However it is definitely not proven beyond all reasonable doubt to be FALSE that "Dewani changed his money at Golden Touch Jewellers because he wanted to avoid a paper trail:  on the contrary, it was proven he did leave no paper trail.

Herewith the testimony of the owner of the store:
http://citizen.co.za/257708/dewani-trial-currency-exchange-store-owner-testifies/ (http://citizen.co.za/257708/dewani-trial-currency-exchange-store-owner-testifies/)

We can only speculate why he would want to do that.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 14, 2015, 02:41:10 AM
By the way, I think you should note from that report that Dewani's own lawyer says he withdrew £800 at a V&A Waterfront bank, you may want to reference the map I posted showing you how close they are to his hotel.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 14, 2015, 03:24:59 AM
Baseless Allegations - unsupported by any credible evidence

Well this is an ironic title!

Absolutely nowhere is there any evidence to suggest anyone has made these allegations:  I'm sure some have been said in stupid places like Twitter, but you have to show a claim was made before refuting it.  Some of these look made-up just so you can refute them.

4 - actually there was a group of Academic and lawyers in South Africa which made a complaint against the trial judge and although she was later cleared it was by no means a certainty she would be as initially the panel making the decision reached a stalemate.

5 ditto

6:  speculation:  the trial was halted and not all evidence heard.  As you repeatedly state and is very clear the prosecution was a shambles and incompetent:  circumstantial evidence is allowed in court and does exist to suggest Dewani could be implicated:  that is a fact.  Best if all, the important circumstantial evidence comes from Dewani changing several key aspects of his story before the trial.

7 - subjective:  he is rich, and he did hire South Africa's top defence lawyer, those are both facts.  One might argue that he was indeed exonerated because his lawyer advised him not to take the stand as he might incriminate himself.

8:  ZAR1,000,000 is £50,000 - don't get carried away with the excitement of the word 'millions'.  UK Taxpayers footed the £250,000 legal bill to fight his extradition. Admittedly he made South African Taxpayers fly him to RSA on a chartered aeroplane with a team of doctors and nurses which cost ZAR2.9million, but fortunately after the trial when he had to head back at his own expense he managed to fly on a sceduled BA flight.

9 - speculation/subjective opinion

11 - contradicts earlier statement that he is bisexual

13:  speculation - and his family threatened to sue The Sun for defamation when it printed the prostitutes claims that he was gay.

14:  worth noting the man was known to him, he died in similar circumstances and for that reason his family flew to be with Dewani.  That's 2 more carjackings connections than most people.

23:  mentioning 'a' helicopter trip is not the same as saying he gave cash to the taxi driver for it, you are trying to conflate the 2 to make it look like he didn't change his story when he suddenly remembered the cash for the helicopter later.

25:  untrue - Dewani's version of events have not been consistent for 4 years and the implication of the changes he made to credible witnesses are significant and form circumstantial evidence against him.  The rest if this long point is speculation.

26.  Untrue:  it is not a baseless claim, millions of tourists do not visit a township at all and numerous locals were reported in the press saying no tourist would go there at night.  In addition, the place they were allegedly going to shuts at night.  The link to Cape Town tourism does not pass comment on safety at night, but it is known the area has over the last 5 years had an average of one murder every 2.5 days.

27.  They actually made a reservation?! Thanks for that tip:  as I said earlier, she was clearly dressed for Strand not a township. The rest of this point is actually fact:  few tourists to Caoe Town visit it - Strand is a holiday resort for white South Africans, particularly favoured by Afrikaners - it has nothing Cape Town doesn't.

28:  speculation/subjective

29:  subjective

30:  subjective

God this is exhausting and tedious.  I can't even be bothered to count up how many of those 'facts' were actually just your opinion.





Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 14, 2015, 03:38:53 AM
Still Unknown

33 they did drive her to a deserted bushy location - if you look on the map I helpfully gave you she was found next to a patch of wasteland, as the photos in the press clearly showed.  I also posted you reports by reputable journalists in which local people said it was too dangerous to go out at night even if you hear something going on you don't open your door.

36. You have no evidence ZAR10,000 was stolen from Dewani - it deserves a slot here all of its own.

39:  speculation.

Omissions:

It is not known how Dewani made initial contact with an illegal taxi Driver rather than a legal one.
It is not known what Dewani did whilst he was with Tongo for 45 minutes on the day of the murder other than an illegal cash trade at a jewellers shop instead of a legal cash trade at the bank adjoining.
It is not known what money was left in the car.
It is not known what money/jewelry changed hands at any other stage.
It is not known whether Dewani ever had physical relations with a woman, only that he did with a man and that he watched gay porn and was a member of gay chat rooms.
It is not known why Dewani changed his story with regard to whose idea it was to visit the township - or even Strand
It is not known what was in the carrier bag gave to Tongo.
It is not known why Dewani thought he might incriminate himself if he took the witness stand.
It is not known why Dewani does not fight for the killers of his wife to have long jail terms.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 14, 2015, 03:48:49 AM
My final piece.

As I said many, many pages back on this thread, there is nothing connecting Dewani to this crime, he is squeaky clean.  He has been acquitted by a court of law because the prosecution case wasn't good enough, even if they had been allowed to submit all their evidence (though it's possible Dewani could have been caught out in cross examination).  Because South Africa has double jeopardy written into its constitution, even if utterly concrete evidence came to light proving he was connected to the murder, he could not be retried in South Africa.

What you want to do Dewanifacts is also win a 'victory' in the Court of The People:  that is an entirely different game.  We have seen the evidence that wasn't allowed in court or which the prosecution bungled.  We know he changed his story, we know he did many things, like the money change, in a shady manner.  We know how few tourists go to that township, we know millions of tourists do the attractions right outside his hotel.  We know the evidence of the prostitute, the record of his disrepsectful behaviour towards Anni's family.

And we, the people, judge him.  And you can't ever change that no matter how much you dress up your own speculation as 'facts':  that is the price he has to pay for not getting even a scratch or graze defending his wife and for not being man enough to take the witness stand to allay all these concerns and look her murderers in the eye and give evidence against them.  That is the price he has to pay for handing over a carrier bag to one of them instead.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 14, 2015, 07:57:30 AM
Thank you for your feedback, Passer-by. We will take a look and consider the merits of your comments and any substantiation that you have provided.

I have posed several questions to you throughout this thread, most of which you have steadfastly ignored and declined to answer.

You can start with reply #99 on page 7. John admitted that there was no arguing with those points. I asked whether you have any way of refuting them.  Do you?

Ball is in your court. Once you have replied to that and other questions addressed to you, then we will post a response to the suggestions you have made regarding our site's content. 

Thanks again.

Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: mercury on August 14, 2015, 08:42:19 AM
We're not in the slightest concerned about being hoisted by any petard as we aren't a PR outfit. Of the long diatribe posted above, not one ounce constitutes evidence. If it was, then it would have been introduced by the prosecutors as part of their case with a witness or witnesses providing the court with testimony as to what tourists do, where they change money, how easy it is to find helicopters and other such information.

Passer-by.  Anni told her cousin Sneha that the sex with Dewani was ok but not as good as with her ex. They consumated the marriage on a number of occasions, just not on the wedding night (allegedly).

Only Dewani can know if he likes women as well as men. See Baseless (11).

As for the part about a bi man being able to happily live with a family whilst a gay man couldn't? If you believe this to be an accurate statement then far be it from me to try to teach you otherwise. Good luck with life!

I understand by now that you are not the slightest bit concerned about any comments made, it is a bit like sticking your fingers in your ears and singing la la la la la

I find the poster Passer Bys comments extremely relevant truthful and enlightening so on that account you have an extremely massive fail. Dewani looks even more...thanks to you. Bye now.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 14, 2015, 09:32:17 AM
Why would that be a fail? Those who believe Dewani to be guilty will always feel that way. We are not going to change anyone's opinion if they feel as strongly as Passer-by appears to. We asked this forum for feedback knowing full well that we would be met with a tide of indignation. Nothing unexpected.

Some of the clearer thinkers on the forum appeared to see some reason.

We want the full set of facts to be available in an easily digestible format and for people to make up their own minds.

That is the first step toward achieving true justice for Anni and pushing for the criminals who perpetrated this crime to be imprisoned for 25 years plus.

Thanks for your feedback, mercury. It is appreciated.

Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 14, 2015, 12:19:51 PM
Passer-by, regarding your critique. Thank you for the time taken to write all that. There are a couple of valid points made and we will make a couple of amendments based on your suggestions. Whilst you undoubtedly have excellent knowledge of Cape Town and would make an above average tour guide, you clearly are not well versed in the facts of the case, a standing which places you at a distinct disadvantage when it comes to critiquing content that is primarily focused on separating fact from fiction.

It is apparent that you possess scant regard for the expertise of the learned judge and for the evidence that her court heard and adjudicated upon but even with this in mind, the sheer number of factual errors in your comments are disquieting. I do not have the time to explain the deficiencies of every one of your points but can make a few general comments that apply to many of them. Your critique is largely unsubstantiated and mostly factually incorrect. You have questioned the validity of many facts that neither prosecutors nor defence team disputed. Many of your comments are logically flawed. Many of your comments demonstrate a basic lack of understanding as to why certain factors take on importance in the context of the case. You have even made basic comprehension errors. A case in point?

Credible (2) states the claim that "Dewani is bisexual".
Baseless (11) states the claim that "Dewani is gay".

Your comment on Baseless (11): "contradicts earlier statement that he is bisexual".

How can we respond to logic like this? We do not have the inclination to spoon feed and teach people how to read and comprehend simple information written in plain English.

For many of our "baseless" items you have tried to counter by claiming that we are speculating. The irony is overwhelming considering your arguments are in most instances based on your own speculation. By definition, unless factual evidence can support those claims then they must remain catagorised as "baseless".

You have made the curious demand that we provide "evidence" of where all the baseless claims have been made in the past. Would you like us to cite every tweet, fb post, media article and forum mention for each of the baseless claims? Sorry but that will not be happening. We sought to present the common claims that had been often repeated over four and a half years. This thread (and other threads in this forum) turned out to be a superb endorsement of our list. Many of our baseless claims are stated in this thread as though they are factual, often by yourself. 

A good example is your continuing insistence that there was circumstantial evidence of Dewani's involvement and your disingenuous claim that the trial was halted before such evidence could be presented. The trial was halted after the prosecutors closed their case. They had no further witnesses and no further evidence to present.   

Thanks for your effort. As mentioned above, we might make some amendments to the site based on your feedback.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 15, 2015, 07:20:46 AM
Hi mercury

You may be surprised to hear that two of the three dewanifacts partners were of the strong belief that Dewani was guilty for the best part of four years. I am one of those. Having open free thinking minds was exactly what led us to conclude that we had been misled and mistaken with our original evaluation and upon seeing the evidence it became clear that only one side of the narrative had been pushed by the media. That side was not driven by facts, but by speculation, assumption and Dewani's odd personality traits and behaviour.

We unapologetically have an agenda; the truth. A natural byproduct of that agenda will be true justice for Anni, for when the truth is exposed and widely known then the pressure will build on the SA authorities to prosecute Mbolombo and impose the appropriate 25+ sentences on Qwabe and Tongo. The only leniency for them should result from them giving up the fifth conspirator's identity and testifying against that person at trial should it be required to convict.

So long as people erroneously believe in Dewani's guilt, the real perpetrators continue to evade justice through immunity and lenient sentences and the uneducated public sit idly by due to their ignorant unsubstantiated belief that Dewani is the one who escaped justice.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Angelo222 on August 15, 2015, 12:24:03 PM
Hi mercury

You may be surprised to hear that two of the three dewanifacts partners were of the strong belief that Dewani was guilty for the best part of four years. I am one of those. Having open free thinking minds was exactly what led us to conclude that we had been misled and mistaken with our original evaluation and upon seeing the evidence it became clear that only one side of the narrative had been pushed by the media. That side was not driven by facts, but by speculation, assumption and Dewani's odd personality traits and behaviour.

We unapologetically have an agenda; the truth. A natural byproduct of that agenda will be true justice for Anni, for when the truth is exposed and widely known then the pressure will build on the SA authorities to prosecute Mbolombo and impose the appropriate 25+ sentences on Qwabe and Tongo. The only leniency for them should result from them giving up the fifth conspirator's identity and testifying against that person at trial should it be required to convict.

So long as people erroneously believe in Dewani's guilt, the real perpetrators continue to evade justice through immunity and lenient sentences and the uneducated public sit idly by due to their ignorant unsubstantiated belief that Dewani is the one who escaped justice.

Let's be honest, Dewani has never been able to prove innocence in a conspiracy to murder Anni and neither have you.  Furthermore, you admit that he still has questions to answer which speaks volumes.

Tongo claimed that Dewani told him that this wasn't the first time he had 'done it'.  My question to you is this, if Tongo had made the entire story up why on earth invent such a strange admission?
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: sika on August 15, 2015, 12:35:06 PM
Let's be honest, Dewani has never been able to prove innocence in a conspiracy to murder Anni and neither have you.  Furthermore, you admit that he still has questions to answer which speaks volumes.

Tongo claimed that Dewani told him that this wasn't the first time he had 'done it'.  My question to you is this, if Tongo had made the entire story up why on earth invent such a strange admission?
Excellent point.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 15, 2015, 12:57:48 PM
Why is that an excellent point?

Tongo was caught lying about numerous things in his attempt to make his story seem believable.   

This alleged "admission" was another of Tongo's embellishments.

If we were to add this point to our site (which we might) it would be classified as "baseless". I'm sure that Passer-by, Angelo222 and Mercury would cry foul...

Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: sika on August 15, 2015, 01:25:21 PM
How odd that Mrs Raghavjee flew out to comfort the Dewanis, don't you think?
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Carbon Copy on August 15, 2015, 02:02:38 PM
Let's be honest, Dewani has never been able to prove innocence in a conspiracy to murder Anni and neither have you.  Furthermore, you admit that he still has questions to answer which speaks volumes.

Tongo claimed that Dewani told him that this wasn't the first time he had 'done it'.  My question to you is this, if Tongo had made the entire story up why on earth invent such a strange admission?

Hi, first post here but have studied the case in great detail and commented extensively elsewhere.  Interested to see debate still raging 8 months after the trial!  I honestly thought the Traverso judgement would have put an end to these types of did he/didn't he type threads – her being so comprehensive in dismantling the states case.   I thought it was pretty clear that the courts finding was that these bunch of crims fingered Dewani in order to reduce their own liabilities? 

On this specific point though – Tongo's reference to Dewani having done something like this previously was the first indication to me that SAPS were complicit in framing him.  It's the timing that is important.  Dr Pox's bereaved wife turns up in SA to comfort Shrien (presumably knowing what he is going through) and police become suspicious...they make a link looking at the apparent similarities between the cases and start to investigate Shrien Dewani in respect of the previous hijack / murder.  Reference to this then appears in Tongo's statements around that time.  To my recollection SAPS subsequently admitted that after investigating Dewani he was in no way connected to the Dr Pox crime...but it was too late...they had already planted the information into Tongo's statement to embellish their case. 

That's how I see it anyway...the more I learnt about this case the more I realised that SAPS involvement crossed the line from incompetence and into the realms of corruption.  This was one example.  To my mind reference to Dr Pox murder had to have come from SAPS. 

So in answer to your question - why on earth would Tongo invent such a strange admission? He didn't.   SAPS likely spoon fed him the line shortly after advising him that he was shafted and looking at life in prison unless he agreed to testify against Dewani.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: sika on August 15, 2015, 07:59:30 PM
Hi Carbon Copy.  I have absolutely no idea whether Dewani is guilty or not.  Other than having seen the BBC documentary, I know b....r all about this case.  I intend to read Dewanifacts website when I get a spare moment.

I find it quite extraordinary that the doctors wife flew out, all the way to South Africa, to offer comfort to someone she didn't even know. 
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 15, 2015, 09:22:44 PM
The Raghavjees were family friends of the Dewanis. Given the fact that Dr Raghavjee 's wife had been through a similar tragedy, is it really that unbelievable that she would travel to support friends who found themselves in a situation with which she could empathise and sympathise?

It is obviously quite a coincidence that two families who know each other, both had to deal with shooting tragedies. There were no other similarities between the crimes. From what I remember, Raghavjee's murder remains unsolved but bore all the hallmarks of a genuine execution. A single shot to the head.
 
Carbon Copy your comments on Tongo's "admission" are interesting. I'm not so sure about your timings and suggestion that the admission didn't originate from Tongo himself. Will need to do a bit of research. It would add a further layer of intrigue if what you say does in fact add up. 

You appear to be well versed in the case. Would be interested to hear your comments and any suggestions regarding our site's content. We want it to be as accurate as possible.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Carbon Copy on August 15, 2015, 11:19:38 PM
Hi Carbon Copy.  I have absolutely no idea whether Dewani is guilty or not.  Other than having seen the BBC documentary, I know b....r all about this case.  I intend to read Passer bys website when I get a spare moment.

I find it quite extraordinary that the doctors wife flew out, all the way to South Africa, to offer comfort to someone she didn't even know.

Passer-by has a website, or dewanifacts?  I've only just clocked the website reference in the thread title, which explains the otherwise random numbering on previous pages.

Yes, I remember the BBC documentary, if it's the Panorama one that you mean.  It stuck out like a beacon as there was no-one else officially questioning the state's case up until that point. 

Good luck catching up on the case - the Dr Pox murder business is just one of many anomalies to get your head around. 



Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: mercury on August 16, 2015, 01:43:14 AM
Hi mercury

You may be surprised to hear that two of the three dewanifacts partners were of the strong belief that Dewani was guilty for the best part of four years. I am one of those. Having open free thinking minds was exactly what led us to conclude that we had been misled and mistaken with our original evaluation and upon seeing the evidence it became clear that only one side of the narrative had been pushed by the media. That side was not driven by facts, but by speculation, assumption and Dewani's odd personality traits and behaviour.

We unapologetically have an agenda; the truth. A natural byproduct of that agenda will be true justice for Anni, for when the truth is exposed and widely known then the pressure will build on the SA authorities to prosecute Mbolombo and impose the appropriate 25+ sentences on Qwabe and Tongo. The only leniency for them should result from them giving up the fifth conspirator's identity and testifying against that person at trial should it be required to convict.

So long as people erroneously believe in Dewani's guilt, the real perpetrators continue to evade justice through immunity and lenient sentences and the uneducated public sit idly by due to their ignorant unsubstantiated belief that Dewani is the one who escaped justice.

Her loving husband seems to be doing nothng in this regard so if I deem him a toerag Im very entitled to
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Carbon Copy on August 16, 2015, 09:54:48 AM
The Raghavjees were family friends of the Dewanis. Given the fact that Dr Raghavjee 's wife had been through a similar tragedy, is it really that unbelievable that she would travel to support friends who found themselves in a situation with which she could empathise and sympathise?

It is obviously quite a coincidence that two families who know each other, both had to deal with shooting tragedies. There were no other similarities between the crimes. From what I remember, Raghavjee's murder remains unsolved but bore all the hallmarks of a genuine execution. A single shot to the head.
 
Carbon Copy your comments on Tongo's "admission" are interesting. I'm not so sure about your timings and suggestion that the admission didn't originate from Tongo himself. Will need to do a bit of research. It would add a further layer of intrigue if what you say does in fact add up. 

You appear to be well versed in the case. Would be interested to hear your comments and any suggestions regarding our site's content. We want it to be as accurate as possible.

Re Raghavjee I can see why people drew similarities...South Africa, dead spouse, carjacking, unknown motive, single bullet etc….but agree there appears to be no doubt it was execution style killing with no sign of robbery (or staged robbery) and so in that regard no real comparison. 

The point i'm trying to make re timing is that SAPS investigation into Dewani's alleged involvement re Dr Pox seems to have been triggered by Heather Raghavjee's presence in Cape Town.  It always seemed extraordinarily fishy that references to Dewani allegedly bragging about having arranged “something like this before” then started to appear in statements by Mbolombo.   Has all the hallmarks of SA Police trying a little too hard to build the case against Dewani and using the puppet Mbolombo to achieve it.

Nice website btw.  Not had the chance to read through all of it but certainly some interesting stuff on there.  Don't know if I have the heart to go over the entire case once more but i'll let you know if anything jumps out.  Blog entry re Mngeni trial is interesting – don't think I ever paid that too much attention other than to note that it must have been a bit of a shambles Mngeni being convicted of the actual shooting, rather than Qwabe, in view of what came to light at Dewani trial.  Qwabe thought he had been real smart wearing his yellow washing up gloves, not realising that the forensic evidence would still be on the glove that he tossed into the drain.  Police had the glove but Mngeni still convicted of the actual shooting...hmmmm.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 16, 2015, 10:59:57 AM
Carbon Copy if you look a few pages back on this thread I posted an interview Dewani gave to a well respect BBC reporter 3 days after the murder.  He was angry and wanted the reporter to correct some 'mistakes', particularly because he had said it was a mistake to go to Gugulethu at night.  Dewani vehemently CLARIFIED that it was

1) a spontaneous decision to go to the township

2) Anni's idea

So it is impossible anyone can have premeditated her murder, isn't it? 

It has to have been spontaneous on the spot and all the bizarre behaviour of giving the taxi driver money for a helicopter trip that was only 5 minutes walk from his hotel and accepts credit cards over the phone is just unfortunate.

Dewani never appeared in court so can't be cross-examined on why he changed his mind and in court papers said it was the taxi driver's idea to go to the township.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 16, 2015, 11:02:55 AM
PS I read Dewanifacts entire blog so can spare you the hassle of trying to find out anything about the BBC interview on there - it isn't mentioned at all.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 16, 2015, 11:57:18 AM
Off out for the afternoon so had better clarify as I won't be here to discuss the matter.

When Dewani did his interview with the BBC reporter 3 days after the murder all that was known by anyone was that the Dewanis had been going for dinner at Strand and spontaneously stopped off in the Township 'to see the real Africa' and by great misfortune been hijacked.  The husband and driver had survived but the pretty wife had been driven off and killed by the murderous hijackers who had then melted back into the population of millions of black people who live anonymously on Cape Flats.

Unfortunately a short while afterwards the SAPS, to their credit, had picked up the murderers out of that huge anonymous mass of people - probably by looking at who the taxi driver had called.  Suddenly it was clear there was collaboration between them and the hijacking was premeditated.

At that point Dewani switched to it being the Taxi Driver's idea to visit the Township, especially when it transpired they had visited it both on the way to Strand and also on the way back.  Strand was re-written as a spontaneous decision. If you look at Anni's sparkly cocktail dress you can see she was dressed for dinner at Strand.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 16, 2015, 01:41:07 PM
Carbon Copy if you look a few pages back on this thread I posted an interview Dewani gave to a well respect BBC reporter 3 days after the murder.  He was angry and wanted the reporter to correct some 'mistakes', particularly because he had said it was a mistake to go to Gugulethu at night.  Dewani vehemently CLARIFIED that it was

1) a spontaneous decision to go to the township

2) Anni's idea

So it is impossible anyone can have premeditated her murder, isn't it? 

It has to have been spontaneous on the spot and all the bizarre behaviour of giving the taxi driver money for a helicopter trip that was only 5 minutes walk from his hotel and accepts credit cards over the phone is just unfortunate.

Dewani never appeared in court so can't be cross-examined on why he changed his mind and in court papers said it was the taxi driver's idea to go to the township.

The Dewanis dinner reservation was not for Strand. It was for 96 Winery Road in Somerset West. The downmarket surfside restaurant at Strand was a last minute change of dinner plan decision by the Dewanis.

You have now stated for a fifth time that it was bizarre that Dewani gave the taxi driver money for the helicopter, despite myself and other posters correcting you every time.  Dewani did not give the helicopter money to the taxi driver. Even the taxi driver (Tongo) doesn't make this claim, yet you continue to say it as though it is a fact. People like you are precisely the reason why we built our site; you perpetuate misinformation with reckless disregard.

Turning to Jonah Fisher's BBC article  - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12229112

Nowhere does it quote Dewani as saying that the trip to Gugulethu "was Anni's idea". It merely says that Anni wanted to see the real Africa. Dewani later expanded on this and explained that Tongo had made some suggestions as to what they might want to see and that Anni had liked the township idea as she wanted to see "the real Africa".

As for your suggestion that the spontaneous decision meant that it would not have been possible for Tongo to coordinate with the hijackers, this is yet another of your disingenuous claims bereft of logic. Tongo was in constant phone and text contact with Mbolombo, who was coordinating with the hijackers. The only reason the eventual hijacking ended up occuring was due to Tongo's continuous use of texts to liase and confirm with Mbolombo that the Dewanis had agreed to his suggestion to go see Gugulethu a second time (the first trip to Mzolis was a 5 minute drive by and a u turn). Mbolombo then made sure the hijackers were in position for the second pass through Gugulethu, which was when the hijacking took place.

Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 16, 2015, 01:42:34 PM
Her loving husband seems to be doing nothng in this regard so if I deem him a toerag Im very entitled to

An A-grade toerag. 
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 16, 2015, 06:19:39 PM
"But it has been proven your facts are not facts in the true sense of the word"

Thank you for your comments on our site, mercury. Your feedback has led us to publish a new page on our site that clearly states our Agenda (https://dewanifacts.wordpress.com/our-agenda/).

With regard to your comment quoted above. Whilst our site is named "Dewani Facts", the core content is actually a catagorisation of common claims made with regard to this case. By definition, the claims catagorised as "false" or "baseless" are not facts. Indeed they are the opposite.

We are open to any suggestions you may want to make as to how we could better catagorise or present the claims, however we need substantiation. We cannot give credence to speculative assertions, simply because Dewani is a "toerag". 

Even if you wish to disregard 98% of the content on our site and give Tongo the benefit of the doubt when it comes to all his lies and deceptive fabrications while testifying, there are a couple of individual points that are so strong and irrefutable that on their own they demonstrate that the hitman story as told by Tongo does not make sense and cannot reasonably possibly be believed to be true. Might I turn your attention to the two points pasted below? To our minds they show unequivocally that there was no agreement between Tongo and Dewani to effect this crime. Both of the items below can be found on the "True" page of our site. Before Passer-by interjects and makes the inevitable absurd claim that we are "speculating", I will make you aware that the facts mentioned in the two points below are not in dispute. They were agreed by the prosecutors as well as the defence teams.

Considering the information below, does the "murder my wife for R15000" story make any sense to you?

TRUE (33)

On the night of the fatal robbery, Zola Tongo made two “passes” through Gugulethu, with the Dewanis travelling in his taxi. The hijacking was supposed to occur on the first pass, however it didn’t eventuate because Qwabe and Mngeni failed to get a ride to the agreed location by the agreed time. After stopping for dinner, the hijacking was re-scheduled and took place later in the evening during the second pass through Gugulethu. Tongo admitted, under oath, that he made no attempt to ascertain whether the money was in the car prior to the first pass through Gugulethu, and since the Dewanis sat in the back of the taxi, Tongo knew with 100% certainty that the money could not be in the cubbyhole. This point is of great importance, given Zola Tongo’s claim that an integral part of the plan was for Dewani to leave an “agreed” R15,000 in the car’s cubbyhole (glovebox) for the hijackers. So despite knowing that the key element of his own version, the price of the hit, was not in place he was content to drive to the hijacking spot anyway. This is solid proof that there was no “agreed” sum, and that this was in fact a robbery/kidnapping operation of which Shrien Dewani had absolutely no knowledge. Paragraphs 23.1.71 and 23.1.78 of the Judgement (http://www.saflii.org/za/cases/ZAWCHC/2014/188.html) detail this crucial point, and highlight Tongo’s deception.
 
True (35)

Shrien Dewani did not even have the allegedly “agreed” R15,000 with him when the car was hijacked. In other words, the “hitman” story alleged that not only did Dewani arrange for the murder of his wife, but he then attempted to short-change the two unknown, armed, dangerous gunmen who were carrying out his wishes, all whilst he was still in the taxi with them, completely at their mercy. His alleged masterplan would also see him ejected from the taxi, alone and with no phone or money, lost in the middle of a township at night.

 
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 16, 2015, 06:32:03 PM
Thank you for your comments on our site, mercury. Your feedback has led us to publish a new page on our site that clearly states our Agenda (https://dewanifacts.wordpress.com/our-agenda/).

With regard to your comment quoted above. Whilst our site is named "Dewani Facts", the core content is actually a catagorisation of common claims made with regard to this case. By definition, the claims catagorised as "false" or "baseless" are not facts. Indeed they are the opposite.

We are open to any suggestions you may want to make as to how we could better catagorise or present the claims, however we need substantiation. We cannot give credence to speculative assertions, simply because Dewani is a "toerag". 

Even if you wish to disregard 98% of the content on our site and give Tongo the benefit of the doubt when it comes to all his lies and deceptive fabrications while testifying, there are a couple of individual points that are so strong and irrefutable that on their own they demonstrate that the hitman story as told by Tongo does not make sense and cannot reasonably possibly be believed to be true. Might I turn your attention to the two points pasted below? To our minds they show unequivocally that there was no agreement between Tongo and Dewani to effect this crime. Both of the items below can be found on the "True" page of our site. Before Passer-by interjects and makes the inevitable absurd claim that we are "speculating", I will make you aware that the facts mentioned in the two points below are not in dispute. They were agreed by the prosecutors as well as the defence teams.

Considering the information below, does the "murder my wife for R15000" story make any sense to you?

TRUE (33)

On the night of the fatal robbery, Zola Tongo made two “passes” through Gugulethu, with the Dewanis travelling in his taxi. The hijacking was supposed to occur on the first pass, however it didn’t eventuate because Qwabe and Mngeni failed to get a ride to the agreed location by the agreed time. After stopping for dinner, the hijacking was re-scheduled and took place later in the evening during the second pass through Gugulethu. Tongo admitted, under oath, that he made no attempt to ascertain whether the money was in the car prior to the first pass through Gugulethu, and since the Dewanis sat in the back of the taxi, Tongo knew with 100% certainty that the money could not be in the cubbyhole. This point is of great importance, given Zola Tongo’s claim that an integral part of the plan was for Dewani to leave an “agreed” R15,000 in the car’s cubbyhole (glovebox) for the hijackers. So despite knowing that the key element of his own version, the price of the hit, was not in place he was content to drive to the hijacking spot anyway. This is solid proof that there was no “agreed” sum, and that this was in fact a robbery/kidnapping operation of which Shrien Dewani had absolutely no knowledge. Paragraphs 23.1.71 and 23.1.78 of the Judgement (http://www.saflii.org/za/cases/ZAWCHC/2014/188.html) detail this crucial point, and highlight Tongo’s deception.
 
True (35)

Shrien Dewani did not even have the allegedly “agreed” R15,000 with him when the car was hijacked. In other words, the “hitman” story alleged that not only did Dewani arrange for the murder of his wife, but he then attempted to short-change the two unknown, armed, dangerous gunmen who were carrying out his wishes, all whilst he was still in the taxi with them, completely at their mercy. His alleged masterplan would also see him ejected from the taxi, alone and with no phone or money, lost in the middle of a township at night.


Why would anyone give Tongo 'the benefit of the doubt':  no-one has ever doubted he was involved nor that he and the other pair have lied repeatedly.

You weren't in the taxi, so you have no idea what Dewani gave Tongo.

You also weren't in the Taxi when Dewani went to a dodgy jewellers to 'change some money' even though it was literally right next to a bank.  The only reason he would do that is not to exchange money but o trade something like a watch and get cash in return, so there would be no cash trail.  You have no idea how much money he got because the business owner was up to her neck in it and trying her best to cover up the illegality of her business.  So you have no idea what he exchanged at the jewellers, how much money he got for it or whether he gave any to someone else because you were not there and he chose to conduct his business in a manner that was underhand.

You literally have no idea what was exchange between them other than the word of people you keep pointing out are liars.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 16, 2015, 07:01:53 PM
Sorry but that post makes no discernible sense. What point are you attempting to make?

The problem with Tongo and the other pair is not merely that they lied repeatedly. It is that they have lied repeatedly with the clear intention of incriminating Mr Dewani. Literally every one of their lies were directly related to implicating Dewani in the crime.

Now why would they need to do that? I realise that you have previously tried to justify their lies by saying "well everyone in Africa lies even when they're telling the truth".

Sorry. That explanation doesn't cut it for us. We deal in facts and evidence. 
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 16, 2015, 07:26:33 PM
The Dewanis dinner reservation was not for Strand. It was for 96 Winery Road in Somerset West. The downmarket surfside restaurant at Strand was a last minute change of dinner plan decision by the Dewanis.

You have now stated for a fifth time that it was bizarre that Dewani gave the taxi driver money for the helicopter, despite myself and other posters correcting you every time.  Dewani did not give the helicopter money to the taxi driver. Even the taxi driver (Tongo) doesn't make this claim, yet you continue to say it as though it is a fact. People like you are precisely the reason why we built our site; you perpetuate misinformation with reckless disregard.

Turning to Jonah Fisher's BBC article  - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12229112

Nowhere does it quote Dewani as saying that the trip to Gugulethu "was Anni's idea". It merely says that Anni wanted to see the real Africa. Dewani later expanded on this and explained that Tongo had made some suggestions as to what they might want to see and that Anni had liked the township idea as she wanted to see "the real Africa".

As for your suggestion that the spontaneous decision meant that it would not have been possible for Tongo to coordinate with the hijackers, this is yet another of your disingenuous claims bereft of logic. Tongo was in constant phone and text contact with Mbolombo, who was coordinating with the hijackers. The only reason the eventual hijacking ended up occuring was due to Tongo's continuous use of texts to liase and confirm with Mbolombo that the Dewanis had agreed to his suggestion to go see Gugulethu a second time (the first trip to Mzolis was a 5 minute drive by and a u turn). Mbolombo then made sure the hijackers were in position for the second pass through Gugulethu, which was when the hijacking took place.

I'm surprised you overlooked this in the BBC article:

"Shrien Dewani then told me that it was Anni who wanted to go to the township"

Somerset West is effectively a suburb of Strand:  they run into each other.  For the purpose of the point I was making it is utterly immaterial which place she had dinner in - the point was she was not dressed for a late night visit to a Township. She was going to have dinner in a nice restaurant with a view:  that can in no ways be described as "the real Africa" that Dewani told the BBC reporter Anni had wanted to see.  There is nothing to indicate Anni would want to drive off the main road and round some unlit deserted streets of 2-room bungalows of poor people at 10.45pm, especially if she had already driven around them earlier.

It is a fact that when Dewani thought the anonymous 'African Man' killers had vanished into the night never to be seen again, he told a BBC reporter that

(a) It was spontaneous

and

(b) It was Anni's idea.


I have provided you with a link and the text to the full interview:  I cannot understand why you ignored it the first time and are now denying the respected news reporter was telling the truth - other posters on the thread said they believed the reporter. Nor can I understand why you think this is a minor point. 

If what he said was true, the hijacking could only have been opportunistic, there is no way Tongo could have pre-arranged it.  It can only have been a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time - which is, of course, what Dewani thought it would look like too.

As soon as the SAPS pulled in the actual hijackers his cover was blown:  he thought amongst millions of other 'African Men' they would never be found.  He immediately had to change the story slightly - a slight change in story but a huge change in significance - because if there was any evidence they had planned the attack it would contradict the story that it was Anni's idea and spontaneous.  So he said Tongo had suggested it

You simply choose to ignore this, even though it's pivotal in making him look complicit with the murder.  Everything else can be explained away, but not that.

As for your petty insults about my logic:  the hijackers could not have carried out the hijacking anywhere - hijackings occur at places where vehicles stop (for this reason most South Africans don't stop at traffic lights at night) so they could not have hijacked the Dewanis on the main highway from Strand to Cape Town - otherwise they would have.

The BBC reporter is quite clear:  this wasn't some bereft incoherent man, dazed and confused about details:  Dewani was an angry man correcting the 'facts'.

Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 16, 2015, 07:50:04 PM
Shrien never said it was Anni's idea. Not in that article. Not to any reporter. Not in his police statement.

Shrien saying "it was Anni who wanted to go to the township" is not the same as "it was Anni's idea".

As for your claim that we "choose to ignore it" , this issue is addressed and dealt with at item Baseless (25) on our site. You can type another 3000 words if you wish and you can insert as many falsehoods as you see fit but that won't make your argument any stronger.


Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 16, 2015, 07:51:51 PM
Sorry but that post makes no discernible sense. What point are you attempting to make?

The problem with Tongo and the other pair is not merely that they lied repeatedly. It is that they have lied repeatedly with the clear intention of incriminating Mr Dewani. Literally every one of their lies were directly related to implicating Dewani in the crime.

Now why would they need to do that? I realise that you have previously tried to justify their lies by saying "well everyone in Africa lies even when they're telling the truth".

Sorry. That explanation doesn't cut it for us. We deal in facts and evidence.

Why would they do that?  3 possibilities:

1).  For a plea-bargain
2).  Because it's true
3).  For a plea-bargain AND because it's true.

You most definitely do not deal with facts and evidence:  I took the trouble of going through your entire blog and pointed out at least hold is speculation and/or subjective opinion.  I went through point by point and you completely ignored it.  It is this constant holier-than-thou inaccuracy that you are standard-bearers of the truth which is so irritating.  Loads of points on your site are pure speculation.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 16, 2015, 08:03:52 PM
Loads of points on your site are pure speculation.

Correct. And those points are catagorised as "baseless" or "false".
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 16, 2015, 08:05:07 PM
Shrien never said it was Anni's idea. Not in that article. Not to any reporter. Not in his police statement.

Shrien saying "it was Anni who wanted to go to the township" is not the same as "it was Anni's idea".

As for your claim that we "choose to ignore it" , this issue is addressed and dealt with at item Baseless (25) on our site. You can type another 3000 words if you wish and you can insert as many falsehoods as you see fit but that won't make your argument any stronger.

Nowhere have I said Dewani covered for Tongo.  I express myself very clearly and in bold I gave you a direct quote which I copied and pasted from that article.  Here it is again for you so you can't keep ignoring it:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12229112 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12229112)

Unequivocally he said "it was Anni who wanted to go to the Township" - that is clear as crystal, they were in the Township at Anni's behest.  Behest, idea, want, need, desire - it doesn't matter what word you use he is very clearly saying that it took place because of Anni.  He also clearly told the reporter they went twice. That article also clearly quotes Dewani in speech marks saying it was an "impulsive" decision to go to the Township.

Restaurant = booked, Township = impulsive.

But we know now it was far from impulsive.  And we also know that it is motorway all the way back to the waterfront and at that time of night, by the airport, there would have been a lot of traffic keeping it moving because all the European flights are over-nighters and leave in the evening.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 16, 2015, 08:05:33 PM
Why would they do that?  3 possibilities:

1).  For a plea-bargain
2).  Because it's true
3).  For a plea-bargain AND because it's true.


The question was "why would they lie?". Your answers make no sense.

Their plea bargain was contingent on them telling the truth. They were caught in lies. That draws a line through each of your numbered points above .
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 16, 2015, 08:17:59 PM
The question was "why would they lie?". Your answers make no sense.

Their plea bargain was contingent on them telling the truth. They were caught in lies. That draws a line through each of your numbered points above .


I extensively covered why they lied previously but you ignored it. The bottom line is its human nature to get yourself off the hook by lying.  That doesn't mean they didn't also tell the truth.  I've said previously and you ignored it, that you can't pick and choose which bits of their statements you use any more than the prosecution can.  That is why I have consistently told you it makes little difference what they said.

What throws suspicion on Dewani is not the other 3:  it's what Dewani said and did himself.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 16, 2015, 08:38:53 PM
I extensively covered why they lied previously but you ignored it. The bottom line is its human nature to get yourself off the hook by lying. 

That's precisely the point. They were already off the hook. They had their attractive plea deals (and in the case of Mbolombo, total immunity). Lying could only worsen their situation. All they needed to do when testifying at Dewani and Mngeni trials was tell the truth.

Unless..............their plea deals were based on a false story. If that was the case then they were in a rather sticky predicament. They had no choice but to continue with that false story and lie to make it seem believable. Which inevitably led to them being caught red handed in those lies. 

Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 16, 2015, 09:53:06 PM
That's precisely the point. They were already off the hook. They had their attractive plea deals (and in the case of Mbolombo, total immunity). All they needed to do when testifying at Dewani and Mngeni trials was tell the truth.

Unless..............their plea deals were based on a false story. If that was the case then they were in a rather sticky predicament. They had no choice but to continue with that false story and lie to make it seem believable. Which inevitably led to them being caught red handed in those lies.

Or unless it was true.  I already told you the whole darn lot lie inessantly anyhow and within 3 minutes get knotted up in their lies.  It is quite staggering trying to follow the logic of someone who missed out on any education that involves reasoning right the way as far back as never even having played with a shape-sorter.  The ability to plan is a skill conspicuous by its absence.

As a consequence their testimony has to be discounted - all of it:  the judge said so as you keep pointing out.  all of it.. But you won't talk about anything else.

Dewani is damned by his own words and actions - that's why his family engaged Max Clifford a week later.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 16, 2015, 10:16:05 PM
I already told you the whole darn lot lie inessantly anyhow

As a consequence their testimony has to be discounted - all of it:  the judge said so as you keep pointing out.  all of it.. But you won't talk about anything else.


As someone who has followed the case for a few years, and witnessed some very backward mind sets I can honestly say that this is the first and only time I have heard this particularly obtuse argument made and you have reiterated it a few times now so you must genuinely believe it. You are in effect saying that because the testimony of the criminals is filled with lies and fabrications, it must all be discounted - even the parts of their testimony that unwittingly show that Dewani could not have played a role in the crime.

I don't think that I really need to say any more on this. Your logic speaks for itself.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 16, 2015, 10:59:16 PM
As someone who has followed the case for a few years, and witnessed some very backward mind sets I can honestly say that this is the first and only time I have heard this particularly obtuse argument made and you have reiterated it a few times now so you must genuinely believe it. You are in effect saying that because the testimony of the criminals is filled with lies and fabrications, it must all be discounted - even the parts of their testimony that unwittingly show that Dewani could not have played a role in the crime.

I don't think that I really need to say any more on this. Your logic speaks for itself.

I have bad news for you:  South Africa has 14 different official languages.  I'm staggered you went there for a 2 week holiday (or did you? Which of the 3 of you am I dealing with now? it's positively schizophrenic) and failed to notice that it is choc full of different races.  There are Zulus, Xhosa, San, Ndebele, Pondo, Sutho - that's not even covering all the black ones - then there are Indian, Cape Coloured, Afrikaaner, Jewish, English (even the 'English' subdivide into English, Scots and Irish).

And as I said in my earlier post, which possibly you didn't bother to read because someone else was on shift at 'Dewanifacts' - they all lie:  every creed, every colour. 
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 17, 2015, 07:44:00 AM
So all South Africans are incessant non repenting liars? Or only the poor ones?

 I take it that you consider yourself to be superior to all these creeds, colours and racial groups?
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 17, 2015, 09:08:46 AM
The Racism Card is in itself racist, it is so loaded with assumption.

You've shown your true colours.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 17, 2015, 09:11:21 AM
And labeling an entire country's population incessant liars?
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 17, 2015, 09:46:50 AM
Yes:  it's ingrained in their culture:  the whites under apartheid lied to themselves, the blacks lied to survive and the in-between races had to do both. 

I've pointed out unequivocally Dewani told a BBC reporter that it was a spontaneous decision by Anni to visit the Township so the murder cannot have been premeditated.  But it was premeditated - and when the perpetrators were pulled in and it became apparent it was premeditated Dewani had to switch to saying it was the Driver who instigated the fateful turn off the motorway.  There's no polite way round this:  Dewani dropped himself in it, that's why they hired Max Clifford to handle future press interviews and that's why he only gave one more fixed up with a journalist chosen by Clifford.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 17, 2015, 10:22:51 AM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12229112 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12229112)

Unequivocally he said "it was Anni who wanted to go to the Township" - that is clear as crystal, they were in the Township at Anni's behest.  Behest, idea, want, need, desire - it doesn't matter what word you use he is very clearly saying that it took place because of Anni. 

You seem quite transfixed by your own line or argument. So much so that you actually seem to believe that it makes sense. Perhaps an example is in order.

You and I go out on a date to a restaurant. The menu has two options. Burger or Fish. You choose the Burger.

Later on, I say to someone "Passer-by wanted the Burger".

Does this mean that Passer-by created the menu and came up with the idea that a Burger was one of her eating options?

Or does it simply mean that presented with two options, Passer-by opted for the Burger?


It is the same with Anni. The decision to see Gugulethu after dinner may have been Anni's decision. That does not mean that she came up with the idea. Since we were not in that vehicle we cannot know for sure who first suggested the idea of a township visit - Tongo or Anni. We cannot exclude either option. Dewani's comment to Jonah Fisher does not exclude either option. This is why your BBC article is essentially irrelevant. It is noise, not evidence. It does not bring us any closer to the truth.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 17, 2015, 11:10:04 AM
You seem quite transfixed by your own line or argument. So much so that you actually seem to believe that it makes sense. Perhaps an example is in order.

You and I go out on a date to a restaurant. The menu has two options. Burger or Fish. You choose the Burger.

Later on, I say to someone "Passer-by wanted the Burger".

Does this mean that Passer-by created the menu and came up with the idea that a Burger was one of her eating options?

Or does it simply mean that presented with two options, Passer-by opted for the Burger?


It is the same with Anni. The decision to see Gugulethu after dinner may have been Anni's decision. That does not mean that she came up with the idea. Since we were not in that vehicle we cannot know for sure who first suggested the idea of a township visit - Tongo or Anni. We cannot exclude either option. Dewani's comment to Jonah Fisher does not exclude either option. This is why your BBC article is essentially irrelevant. It is noise, not evidence. It does not bring us any closer to the truth.

There's a destinct lack of spontaneity in your analogy (an analogy which if I had made you'd have ripped to bits as being not expressly myself clearly, or would have turned to a bunch of imaginary friends and said 'allow me to explain that for everyone else' before reinterpreting my words).

For the spontaneous element Dewani was adamant had been there the analogy has to be no-one is in a restaurant, they are in a car having already been to a restaurant and then later having driven around for a bit come past the same restaurant again and even though it is closed up for the night and deserted Anni suddenly shouts 'I want a burger' so they all go to the closed locked-up restaurant for her to have one.

Oh hang on a minute - that's not really an analogy is it, it's pretty much what actually happened if we take out your 'burger'.

Yet again, you bang on very sanctimoniously about only dealing with facts and then just like half your blog, you come out with loads of 'what ifs' to explain away anything awkward - no facts at all.

The fact remains Dewani was actively trying to manipulate the portrayal of his story in the media - first by his own choice angrily engaging with a respected BBC reporter to correct him specifically about it being Anni's spontaneous decision rather than premeditated, and then via the one and only interview he has ever given since jacked up with a journalist friend of publicist Max Clifford, in which he shifts his story.

As former Ambassador for Children In Need and current convicted paedophile Max Clifford once said to the Oxford Union:

"Every day, every week, every month,  a lot of lies that you see in the newspapers, in the magazines, on television, on the radio, are mine."


This makes an interesting read actually, especially the bit where Clifford explains that he would cover up a client being gay by leaking an 'affair' with a woman to the press - he did that for Dewani as well I believe.


http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1988837/quotes
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: John on August 17, 2015, 02:17:11 PM
You have deliberately tried to soften the fact that Dewani unequivocally changed his story by suggesting it was an unimportant detail -  you call it "slightly varying explanations" when in fact it is deeply significant.  If it was, as Dewani is recorded as saying, a spontaneous trip and Anni's idea to go to the Township, the Taxidriver could not have prearranged with the 2 murderers to hijack the car.  As I have provided you with clear evidence that he actually demanded a BBC reporter take this down 3 days after the event I think we can dismiss all your baseless speculation that the poor petal having trouble recalling the details.

I look forward to you, at the very least, moving this item to your 'credible' list.

The devil is always in the detail in every case we have looked at and you certainly have picked over this one Passer-by.   Something else, I don't quite understand is why they went through the township on the way to dinner if it had only been suggested during dinner. &%+((£

From my own experience of life changing events, I have found that memories tend to be enhanced by traumatic events rather than diminished.  Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 17, 2015, 03:02:25 PM
Clearly, Passer-by's interpretation could in theory indicate a deceitful Dewani. The problem is that there could also be a totally innocent explanation. For example, Anni agreeing to Tongo's suggestion to see some real African nightlife.

If Passer-by's point was bolstered by a wealth of other evidence showing Dewani to be guilty then it would be a valid point. Conversely if unsupported by any credible evidence (which is why the case was thrown out), then it can only be "deeply significant" to someone who is clutching wildly for something....anything....to feed their confirmation bias.

Some of you may be temporarily fooled by Passer-by's speculative mining for deceptive intent in Dewanis words but given the rest of the circumstances, the hitman story cannot be believed to be true. Both passes through Gugulethu were enacted by Tongo the friendly tour guide, the man in control of the car. The first time he offered to show them Mzolis, a place recommended by Jamie Oliver and they drove past and did a U-turn. That was when the hijack was first supposed to occur. Then after dinner, helpful Tongo again drove them into the township where his hijackers were waiting, quite possibly at Anni's unwilling, unknowing insistence.

Even if you disregard every other point on our site, the two points below make it clear that there was no agreement between Dewani and Tongo. Passer-by will say that they contain "speculation" but every detail was agreed by all parties; the judge, the defence, and the prosecution. None of the details below are in dispute.  Don't take my word for it. Rather see what a senior judge had to say.

http://www.saflii.org/za/cases/ZAWCHC/2014/188.html

Paragraphs below all make it very clear that there was no agreement between Tongo and Dewani.

23.1.71
23.1.78
23.1.79   
23.1.86
23.1.87

For further verification, the State and Defence Heads of Argument can also be found on our new "Useful links" page.

TRUE (33)

On the night of the fatal robbery, Zola Tongo made two “passes” through Gugulethu, with the Dewanis travelling in his taxi. The hijacking was supposed to occur on the first pass, however it didn’t eventuate because Qwabe and Mngeni failed to get a ride to the agreed location by the agreed time. After stopping for dinner, the hijacking was re-scheduled and took place later in the evening during the second pass through Gugulethu. Tongo admitted, under oath, that he made no attempt to ascertain whether the money was in the car prior to the first pass through Gugulethu, and since the Dewanis sat in the back of the taxi, Tongo knew with 100% certainty that the money could not be in the cubbyhole. This point is of great importance, given Zola Tongo’s claim that an integral part of the plan was for Dewani to leave an “agreed” R15,000 in the car’s cubbyhole (glovebox) for the hijackers. So despite knowing that the key element of his own version, the price of the hit, was not in place he was content to drive to the hijacking spot anyway. This is solid proof that there was no “agreed” sum, and that this was in fact a robbery/kidnapping operation of which Shrien Dewani had absolutely no knowledge. Paragraphs 23.1.71 and 23.1.78 of the Judgement detail this crucial point, and highlight Tongo’s deception.
 
True (35)

Shrien Dewani did not even have the allegedly “agreed” R15,000 with him when the car was hijacked. In other words, the “hitman” story alleged that not only did Dewani arrange for the murder of his wife, but he then attempted to short-change the two unknown, armed, dangerous gunmen who were carrying out his wishes, all whilst he was still in the taxi with them, completely at their mercy. His alleged masterplan would also see him ejected from the taxi, alone and with no phone or money, lost in the middle of a township at night.


Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: sika on August 17, 2015, 04:33:12 PM
How much time had elapsed, between the first drive past and the fateful second ?

Was there evidence of any contact between Tongo and the two hijackers, during this period of time?

If not, did the two hijackers arrive late and wait in the hope, that the car would make a return visit?
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 17, 2015, 04:42:13 PM
A couple of hours, give or take. Tongo dropped them at Surfside and Dewani said he'd call Tongo when they were ready to leave. Phone records show lots of call and text contact between Tongo and Mbolombo in that time period, and lots of contact between Mbolombo and the hijackers. I cannot recall with certainty but I don't think Tongo contacted the hijackers directly. That was Mbolombo's job. 

The two hijackers didn't even get to the hijack spot the first time.

On the second occasion the hijackers engaged the help of a guy at the shebeen who drove them to the location. They were there with time to spare and one or both of them were urinating when Tongo's car came into view.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: mercury on August 17, 2015, 10:45:11 PM
A couple of hours, give or take. Tongo dropped them at Surfside and Dewani said he'd call Tongo when they were ready to leave. Phone records show lots of call and text contact between Tongo and Mbolombo in that time period, and lots of contact between Mbolombo and the hijackers. I cannot recall with certainty but I don't think Tongo contacted the hijackers directly. That was Mbolombo's job. 

The two hijackers didn't even get to the hijack spot the first time.

On the second occasion the hijackers engaged the help of a guy at the shebeen who drove them to the location. They were there with time to spare and one or both of them were urinating when Tongo's car came into view.

How can phone traffic between these people after they initially failed to turn up though prove that Dewani hadn't arranged the whole episode.? but rather prove their own plot?
Pretty amateur of them not to get there in the first place for this rich robbery,( IIRC the engagement ring was worth £25k?  )but luckily got a ride the second time

PS Thanks  realise on skim reading you replied to a few of my posts over the last few days which I didn't answer, was a bit short for time, but will reread and reply if still relevant

PPS I hope you realise that most people don't "want" people go be guilty of a heinous crime but if there is doubt/a chance, people will analyse what is there, until they are satisfied beyond a reasonable doubt, outwith the courts if it has gone beyond that,as no one can agree with someone getting away with murder if that is the case. Opposite applies too for innocent people being convicted.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 17, 2015, 10:55:28 PM
How can phone traffic between these people after they initially failed to turn up though prove that Dewani hadn't arranged the whole episode.? but rather prove their ther own plot?

The phone traffic doesn't prove anything. I answered Sika's question but was unsure of the relevance. Sika may have thought of something that no one else has.......

Sika?
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 18, 2015, 09:10:40 AM

PPS I hope you realise that most people don't "want" people go be guilty of a heinous crime

Hi Mercury,

Yes, I understand what you are saying. We would not defend a character like Dewani, unless we were convinced beyond any shadow of a doubt that he was innocent of all involvement in the crime. He is clearly a dislikeable, dishonourable person in many ways.

Allow me to inject a little perspective on the sentiment you have expressed. You are clearly a level headed clear thinking person and I understand that you personally do not "want" anyone to be falsely labeled guilty of a heinous crime. The problem in the Dewani case, is that many people did  (and do) want him to be guilty.

Remember that the backdrop to this murder was a wildly successful, peaceful world cup tournament in which Cape Town proved the doubters wrong. In this context, Anni's murder was a huge blow for the country and the handling of the case makes it readily apparent that.....

- SAPS wanted a foreigner to be the perpetrator, rather than local thugs.
- The NPA wanted the same.
- South Africa's police commissioner at the time certainly wanted Dewani to be the culprit - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/southafrica/8191642/Honeymoon-murder-Shrien-Dewani-is-a-monkey-says-South-African-police-chief.html
- The media clearly wanted Shrien to be guilty (see True (44) as the "murdering gay husband" narrative sold lots of papers and commercials
- The SA public also wanted Shrien to be guilty, as it absolved their society of the blame for this young girl's murder. In addition, many South Africans feel exactly the same as Passer-by. They formed an opinion on this murder within a nanosecond of it hitting the news, confirmation bias has driven them ever since and they are wedded to that narrative. We will never convince some people that Dewani is innocent. We know that.

We (myself and my dewanifacts partners) struggle to understand this mindset as two of us were in the exact same boat. The difference with us was that we were open minded to admitting that our intuition had been wrong.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 18, 2015, 10:15:18 AM
How much time had elapsed, between the first drive past and the fateful second ?

Was there evidence of any contact between Tongo and the two hijackers, during this period of time?

If not, did the two hijackers arrive late and wait in the hope, that the car would make a return visit?

Sika they went to the Township allegedly to see 'the Real Africa' (even though Anni was over-dressed for Strand, never mind a Township) on the way to a dinner reservation near Strand.  There is nothing much to see n the Township except poor people's houses and a bar/restaurant called Mzoli's which Jamie Oliver once visited:  it sells barbequed meat and the punters sit on plastic chairs under a wriggly-tin roof - it shut at 7pm, over an hour before the Dewanis left their hotel.

They didn't turn up for the dinner reservation, instead they went to a Sushi Bar in Strand (an Afrikaner holiday resort certainly not the 'real Africa').  Then on the return journey Anni allegedly spontaneously decided she would like to see 'the real Africa' again.  Perhaps she thought nightlife in the Township kicked-off after 9.45pm and the previously deserted streets would be full of life, who knows?

And we can only speculate that they didn't have a proper sit-down 3 course meal at the restaurant that they had reserved but instead grabbed a few pieces of Sushi because a sit-down 3 course meal takes ages to cook and eat and they wouldn't be back at the Township for at least a couple more hours - so might miss the hijackers on the return trip as well.

Did you see the photos I posted of the Township higher up or are they lost in the Black Hole of the middle of this thread?
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 18, 2015, 10:35:10 AM
Unfortunately Passer-by continues to perpetuate falsehoods.

It is only the second (fatal) trip that was preceded by a discussion in which Anni allegedly insisted on seeing the real Africa.

There has never been any suggestion that the first Gugulethu driveby was due to Anni wanting to see the real Africa. Tongo knew that mentioning Jamie Oliver was a surefire way to get a British tourist to agree to the suggestion and he needed them to agree because his hijack was planned to occur on that first pass through. Mzolis kitchen may have been closed (I cannot recall the exact details but this issue has been extensively examined in other online discussions) but the music, drinking and partying carries on for hours afterwards around Mzolis location.

As for the Dewanis outfits being too smart and overdressed for their eventual destinations. This is much ado about nothing. Europeans dress up to go out at night when on holiday. Visit a cheap mass tourism hotspot like Marbella or Malaga and you will see people dressed up for a simple paella by the beach. There was nothing unusual about Anni being dressed the way she was. When she left the hotel, she thought she would go for dinner at an upmarket restaurant at Winery Road and do a driving tour around a few sights. They may not have intended to step out of the car. The fact that she ended up being overdressed proves nothing other than that the Dewanis amended their dinner and destination plans midway through the evening, and the evidence strongly suggests that those amendments were made largely due to the suggestions of the ever helpful trusted tour guide - Tongo.   
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 18, 2015, 11:06:55 AM
Clearly, Passer-by's interpretation could in theory indicate a deceitful Dewani. The problem is that there could also be a totally innocent explanation. For example, Anni agreeing to Tongo's suggestion to see some real African nightlife.

If Passer-by's point was bolstered by a wealth of other evidence showing Dewani to be guilty then it would be a valid point. Conversely if unsupported by any credible evidence (which is why the case was thrown out), then it can only be "deeply significant" to someone who is clutching wildly for something....anything....to feed their confirmation bias.

Some of you may be temporarily fooled by Passer-by's speculative mining for deceptive intent in Dewanis words but given the rest of the circumstances, the hitman story cannot be believed to be true. Both passes through Gugulethu were enacted by Tongo the friendly tour guide, the man in control of the car. The first time he offered to show them Mzolis, a place recommended by Jamie Oliver and they drove past and did a U-turn. That was when the hijack was first supposed to occur. Then after dinner, helpful Tongo again drove them into the township where his hijackers were waiting, quite possibly at Anni's unwilling, unknowing insistence.

Even if you disregard every other point on our site, the two points below make it clear that there was no agreement between Dewani and Tongo. Passer-by will say that they contain "speculation" but every detail was agreed by all parties; the judge, the defence, and the prosecution. None of the details below are in dispute.  Don't take my word for it. Rather see what a senior judge had to say.

http://www.saflii.org/za/cases/ZAWCHC/2014/188.html

Paragraphs below all make it very clear that there was no agreement between Tongo and Dewani.

23.1.71
23.1.78
23.1.79   
23.1.86
23.1.87

For further verification, the State and Defence Heads of Argument can also be found on our new "Useful links" (https://dewanifacts.wordpress.com/useful-links/) page. 

TRUE (33)

On the night of the fatal robbery, Zola Tongo made two “passes” through Gugulethu, with the Dewanis travelling in his taxi. The hijacking was supposed to occur on the first pass, however it didn’t eventuate because Qwabe and Mngeni failed to get a ride to the agreed location by the agreed time. After stopping for dinner, the hijacking was re-scheduled and took place later in the evening during the second pass through Gugulethu. Tongo admitted, under oath, that he made no attempt to ascertain whether the money was in the car prior to the first pass through Gugulethu, and since the Dewanis sat in the back of the taxi, Tongo knew with 100% certainty that the money could not be in the cubbyhole. This point is of great importance, given Zola Tongo’s claim that an integral part of the plan was for Dewani to leave an “agreed” R15,000 in the car’s cubbyhole (glovebox) for the hijackers. So despite knowing that the key element of his own version, the price of the hit, was not in place he was content to drive to the hijacking spot anyway. This is solid proof that there was no “agreed” sum, and that this was in fact a robbery/kidnapping operation of which Shrien Dewani had absolutely no knowledge. Paragraphs 23.1.71 and 23.1.78 of the Judgement detail this crucial point, and highlight Tongo’s deception.
 
True (35)

Shrien Dewani did not even have the allegedly “agreed” R15,000 with him when the car was hijacked. In other words, the “hitman” story alleged that not only did Dewani arrange for the murder of his wife, but he then attempted to short-change the two unknown, armed, dangerous gunmen who were carrying out his wishes, all whilst he was still in the taxi with them, completely at their mercy. His alleged masterplan would also see him ejected from the taxi, alone and with no phone or money, lost in the middle of a township at night.

Passer-by has indeed bolstered it with a wealth of other circumstantial evidence highlighting the extreme unlikelihood that a tourist would visit this Township, including posting links to newspaper articles saying it was rare to see tourists there and pointing out what the millions of other tourists who visit Cape Town do right on their doorstep.  A small Barbeque restaurant cannot cater for millions of tourists - if it could, it would move to the Waterfront.  All circumstantial evidence could have been used in court:  for some reason Dewanifacts thinks if that if my circumstantial evidence was valid, I would have been called as a witness at the trial - which is a rather weird suggestion - ergo, as I wasn't called as a witness the circumstantial evidence isn't valid.   I think any rational person would realise the prosecution would/should have invited someone from the Tourism Office to testify some statistics about what percentage of tourists visit which attractions, and then Mzoli himself to testify as to how many tourists he gets on average at his restaurant to work out the unlikeliness of millionaires visiting his restaurant in their first 24hrs in Cape Town.

But Dewanifacts dismisses all this as just 'tourist information' and Dewani himself scoffed at the idea that he took a risk when he corrected the facts of the BBC reporter.  In case you missed the posts, that particular Township has averaged a murder every 2.5 days in the last 5 years, and in an article in the Guardian local women said they don't go out at night because it's so dangerous.

There is other evidence where Dewani damns himself. 

There were text messages between him and the Taxi driver whilst they were driving around that evening discussing Dewani leaving money in the car for the Taxidriver.  We have no idea why he would be sitting in the car with the driver next to his wife texting the driver, we can only speculate.  Dewani later alleged it was because the Taxidriver was secretly arranging a surprise for his wife.  That surprise may have been a helicopter trip.  I have provided detailed information about the helicopter trip, which departs from the Waterfront about 5mins walk from the Dewani's hotel, which has advertising all over the Waterfront and in hotels, and which takes telephone bookings and payment by credit card over the phone.  That is all we know - but Dewanifacts speculates that Dewani was naive enough to think this poor Taxidriver from the Townships had the contacts to do a 'special' trip and illegally land on Table Mountain.  This is pure speculation - and it takes us further and further away from the fact that on the night of the murders Dewani was texting the Taxidriver about leaving money in the car whilst his wife sat next to him oblivious.

Dewani also damns himself by spending 45 minutes alone with the Taxidriver a few hours before the murders, whilst Anni was sunbathing by the pool.  Despite being a minute's walk from more than half a dozen banks and cashpoints at the Waterfront, he had the Taxidriver drive a few minutes into 'the Central Business District' (recently renovated:  it used to be a no-go zone about 12 years ago, so is very eclectic with many businesses which operated when it was a dangerous area still on a long lease next to trendy boutiques and bars).  Then, despite being literally adjacent to several large banks, he changed his money at a 'jewellers' - I'll be told off if I tell you what it's like inside (it will be dismissed as Tourist Information) even though I've been inside:  it's a small, pokey, dusty Alladins Cave and looks like a pawnbrokers.  They will give you cash for gold and also buy and sell - how shall we put this - 'pre-loved' jewelry.  By law they are meant to record transactions, obviously - but obviously they don't and the owner admitted on oath that she forgot to record this one.  Apparently she changed the millionaire Dewani's dollars into South African Rand, but there is no record to confirm what took place or whether he traded cash or jewelry or how much money he was given.  It's interesting she was adamant it was dollars, which is a bit awkward because he claimed to only have sterling on him whilst accounting for money he took for his holiday.  Also at court it came out that her Assistant had made a statement to police saying she had been given gold to take to the back of the shop to turn into rands.  Gold? U.S. dollars? Definitely not sterling.  Possibly this why it couldn't be done in the branch of First National Bank next door.
http://citizen.co.za/257708/dewani-trial-currency-exchange-store-owner-testifies/ (http://citizen.co.za/257708/dewani-trial-currency-exchange-store-owner-testifies/)

I've always found it odd that he didn't give the Taxidriver the cash for the 'surprise' then.  Or, given he was already away from Anni, just asked Tongo to run him round to the tip of the Waterfront so he could pop in for a chat with the helicopter tour operators and pay them himself there and then.

There are, of course, any number of reasons we could speculate why he might have behaved like this - you'll find them posing as 'facts' on Dewanifacts' blog.  But the reality is, we don't know why and all the witnesses in this case are proven liars.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 18, 2015, 11:14:55 AM
Almost everything above is anecdotal evidence, which is not the same as circumstantial evidence.

Anecdotal evidence carries little weight and in most instances clouds rather than clarifies the truth. That is why it is seldom heard in court and that is why no-one from the tourism office testified in the trials of Mngeni or Dewani.

As a matter of interest; what do you consider more improbable, Passer-by. A tourist making the unusual decision to visit a dangerous township? Or a man asking a taxi driver to murder his wife of 2 weeks?
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 18, 2015, 11:26:12 AM
Unfortunately Passer-by continues to perpetuate falsehoods.

It is only the second (fatal) trip that was preceded by a discussion in which Anni allegedly insisted on seeing the real Africa.

There has never been any suggestion that the first Gugulethu driveby was due to Anni wanting to see the real Africa. Tongo knew that mentioning Jamie Oliver was a surefire way to get a British tourist to agree to the suggestion and he needed them to agree because his hijack was planned to occur on that first pass through. Mzolis kitchen may have been closed (I cannot recall the exact details but this issue has been extensively examined in other online discussions) but the music, drinking and partying carries on for hours afterwards around Mzolis location.

As for the Dewanis outfits being too smart and overdressed for their eventual destinations. This is much ado about nothing. Europeans dress up to go out at night when on holiday. Visit a cheap mass tourism hotspot like Marbella or Malaga and you will see people dressed up for a simple paella by the beach. There was nothing unusual about Anni being dressed the way she was. When she left the hotel, she thought she would go for dinner at an upmarket restaurant at Winery Road and do a driving tour around a few sights. They may not have intended to step out of the car. The fact that she ended up being overdressed proves nothing other than that the Dewanis amended their dinner and destination plans midway through the evening, and the evidence strongly suggests that those amendments were made largely due to the suggestions of the ever helpful trusted tour guide - Tongo.

I think you've just tied yourself up in a knot whilst trying to call me a liar.

I have already provided evidence that Mzoli's shut at 7pm - over an hour before the Dewanis set off. This is the trouble with there being 3 of you posting under one name:  you haven't bothered to read what's happened whilst you were off shift.

That's the whole darn point:  they had already been to the Township and seen everything was shut so why would Anni ask to go back later?

Employee of MZOLI's told News24 they shut at 7pm everyday:
http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Murdered-tourist-looking-for-real-Africa-20101116 (http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Murdered-tourist-looking-for-real-Africa-20101116)

This report has some photographs to show you the kind of area Anni had already driven around and allegedly asked to go back to:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1329361/Newlywed-Britons-wife-shot-dead-robbers-hijack-South-Africa.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1329361/Newlywed-Britons-wife-shot-dead-robbers-hijack-South-Africa.html)

Interesting final paragraph in this report by th New York Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/16/world/africa/16honeymoon.html?_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/16/world/africa/16honeymoon.html?_r=0)
"If the chauffeur’s confession is to be believed, then Shrien Dewani overpaid by offering $2,200. A third of that would have been enough, the reporters found."
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Carbon Copy on August 18, 2015, 11:43:32 AM
Hi Mercury,

Yes, I understand what you are saying. We would not defend a character like Dewani, unless we were convinced beyond any shadow of a doubt that he was innocent of all involvement in the crime. He is clearly a dislikeable, dishonourable person in many ways.

Allow me to inject a little perspective on the sentiment you have expressed. You are clearly a level headed clear thinking person and I understand that you personally do not "want" anyone to be falsely labeled guilty of a heinous crime. The problem in the Dewani case, is that many people did  (and do) want him to be guilty.

Remember that the backdrop to this murder was a wildly successful, peaceful world cup tournament in which Cape Town proved the doubters wrong. In this context, Anni's murder was a huge blow for the country and the handling of the case makes it readily apparent that.....

- SAPS wanted a foreigner to be the perpetrator, rather than local thugs.
- The NPA wanted the same.
- South Africa's police commissioner at the time certainly wanted Dewani to be the culprit - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/southafrica/8191642/Honeymoon-murder-Shrien-Dewani-is-a-monkey-says-South-African-police-chief.html
- The media clearly wanted Shrien to be guilty (see True (44) as the "murdering gay husband" narrative sold lots of papers and commercials
- The SA public also wanted Shrien to be guilty, as it absolved their society of the blame for this young girl's murder. In addition, many South Africans feel exactly the same as Passer-by. They formed an opinion on this murder within a nanosecond of it hitting the news, confirmation bias has driven them ever since and they are wedded to that narrative. We will never convince someone like Passer-by that Dewani is innocent. We know that. People like her never want to admit that their intuition was misguided.

We (myself and my dewanifacts partners) struggle to understand this mindset as two of us were in the exact same boat. The difference with us was that we were open minded to admitting that our intuition had been wrong.

I went through that same journey as well.  I wouldn't call it intuition being wrong though...more an inevitable impression from the hugely biased media reporting, which later had to be corrected. 

First started to have grave doubts about the allegations when actually considered the alleged plot in it's entirety.  It's said that it's easy to hire a contract killer in SA which may well be true.  But how many of these operations involve the organiser sitting in the same taxi as the actual killers, with the "hit" money on his person!?  They could have just turned the gun on him, demanded the money, and left.  No need to be sticking around killing people, following orders.  Why risk a life sentence when could just rip-off the defenceless bloke in front of them.  He couldn't have gone to the police. 

This together with the fact that there is just no motive for Tongo and Mbolombo to be involved, other than proceeds of the robbery.  Tongo said on the stand that Dewani had promised him future business, or further business, something like that.  Hmmm and that's why he arranged a murder in his own taxi and risk life in prison if caught...on the off chance that this foreigner who he'd never met might send him a few customers from abroad?  I don't think so.  And Mbolombo was apparently just hoping that the killers would hand him some money afterwards?   Not likely.  These clowns got in over their heads...they wanted to rip off the rich tourists but they forgot how unpredictable drunken gun-touting maniacs wearing rubber washing up gloves can be. 

Re the topic of Gugulethu etc above - I don't know every minute detail but I see Tongo as a salesman, and a conman.  He's got the local knowledge and the chit chat, it wouldn't be difficult for him to manipulate the situation. 

I'd like to contribute more but just too busy at the moment.  Good luck with your quest of raising awareness etc although personal view is that it's just too far gone.  At this stage there would need to be a public enquiry, or a judge led enquiry (Traverso!?) into widespread inter-departmental corruption.  First head to roll would be Rodney de Kock (Director of Public Prosecutions Western Cape). I think you mentioned him in your site.  He's arranging these plea deals at the drop of a hat then disappearing into the sunset leaving junior counsel to take the fall. Investigate why aren't NPA able/willing to correct their mistakes?  Criminals are making a mockery of the system, which makes a mockery of the ordinary citizen.  Police incompetence, don't get me started.  Police chief mouthing off in public, lost note-books, ignoring forensic tests, surely wrong killer, planting information into confessions (my opinion).   It would take years.

With regards to your aims - rescinding plea deals for Qwabe and Tongo, can't see it. They took advantage of the system but at least they are in jail for now.  The test is Mbolombo...he's there for all to see getting away with it.  Not prosecuting Mbolombo is the same as admitting Dewani was framed. 





Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 18, 2015, 12:10:46 PM
Almost everything above is anecdotal evidence, which is not the same as circumstantial evidence.

Anecdotal evidence carries little weight and in most instances clouds rather than clarifies the truth. That is why it is seldom heard in court and that is why no-one from the tourism office testified in the trials of Mngeni or Dewani.

As a matter of interest; what do you consider more improbable, Passer-by. A tourist making the unusual decision to visit a dangerous township? Or a man asking a taxi driver to murder his wife of 2 weeks?

As always, you want to control the debate and narrow the choice of evidence down to fit your agenda.

Your natty little either/or option omits so much and should read more like:
_____________________________

What do you consider more improbable:  a tourist making the unusual decision to re-visit a dangerous township late at night which they already visited an hour earlier so knew the only attraction was shut (Dewani's version)

Or

a gay man who lied by omission when 'marrying' his heterosexual wife (and who was later found not only to have used a gay prostitute but also to have surfed gay bondage websites immediately after his bride's murder) who hired a publicist notorious for twisting the truth in the media, whose story changed about how he got out of a moving car without a scratch (and over whose idea it was to visit the Township anyhow the second time after they had already been there an hour earlier and seen the only attraction shut) who whilst alone with the Taxidriver a few hours earlier conducted a dodgy money transaction instead of using a nearby bank and who secretly texted that TaxiDriver whilst sitting next to his wife about leaving money in the Taxi.(Actual version)

_______________________________

(I put 'marrying' and 'wife' in inverted commas because they weren't legally married, it was only a religious ceremony in India, they were due to legally marry in the UK later.)
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 18, 2015, 12:27:31 PM
The devil is always in the detail in every case we have looked at and you certainly have picked over this one Passer-by.   Something else, I don't quite understand is why they went through the township on the way to dinner if it had only been suggested during dinner. &%+((£

From my own experience of life changing events, I have found that memories tend to be enhanced by traumatic events rather than diminished.  Any thoughts?

I would agree.  Our brains actually record every frame of what happens but day-to-day we only 'view' every few frames (I've done separate research into this in regard to my son's sensitivities with autism).  However when we are in danger our brain analyses every single frame and for this reason people experiencing a traumatic event often describing seeing it in 'slow-motion':  they see an explosion that actually took 2 seconds to reach them slowly growing and coming towards them before they even feel it and the ability to reacts in these split seconds is why some people escape terrible events whilst others are killed.  The slow-motion effect has been exploited in Guy Ritchie films like Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels, and in TV series like Sherlock.  'Seeing' every 'frame' of the trauma this way etches it in the memory more and revisiting it is what causes PTSD.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 18, 2015, 01:38:29 PM
There's got to be a plausible explanation as to why Anni wanted to go back a second time to see the restaurant she knew was already closed, surely?
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 18, 2015, 01:49:02 PM
This is the trouble with there being 3 of you posting under one name:  you haven't bothered to read what's happened whilst you were off shift.

All of us read. Only one of us posts.


That's the whole darn point:  they had already been to the Township and seen everything was shut so why would Anni ask to go back later?

No. You are missing the whole darn point. Which is that Anni and Shrien were hoodwinked by Tongo. We know that the townships are a shithole but that is irrelevant. Tongo made them sound attractive and that was all it needed for Anni and Shrien to agree to his suggestions. She wasn't to know that the 3 minute Mzoli's driveby pre-dinner was as exciting as it was going to get. So far as she knew, Tongo was a good tour guide and was recommending that the townships were a good authentic experience for them to savour.

Would you like some speculative examples of possible reasons why Anni agreed to go back later?

Tongo said "If you think Mzolis looked like fun when we saw it earlier, then you will really enjoy some of the other shebeens"
Tongo said "its really fun. Its the real Africa. All my clients really like it when I show it to them"
Tongo said "the atmosphere is lovely jubbly. You will thank me for taking you there"
Tongo said "there is a circus of dancing African midgets who only come out at night. You will enjoy it"
Tongo said "Cape Town Disneyland is located only a few minutes from here. Shall I take the turnoff and show it to you?"
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 18, 2015, 01:59:26 PM
All of us read. Only one of us posts.


No. You are missing the whole darn point. Which is that Anni and Shrien were hoodwinked by Tongo. We know that the townships are a shithole but that is irrelevant. Tongo made them sound attractive and that was all it needed for Anni and Shrien to agree to his suggestions. She wasn't to know that the 3 minute Mzoli's driveby pre-dinner was as exciting as it was going to get. So far as she knew, Tongo was a good tour guide and was recommending that the townships were a good authentic experience for them to savour.

Would you like some speculative examples of possible reasons why Anni agreed to go back later?

Tongo said "If you think Mzolis looked like fun when we saw it earlier, then you will really enjoy some of the other shebeens"
Tongo said "its really fun. Its the real Africa. All my clients really like it when I show it to them"
Tongo said "the atmosphere is lovely jubbly. You will thank me for taking you there"
Tongo said "there is a circus of dancing African midgets who only come out at night. You will enjoy it"
Tongo said "Cape Town Disneyland is located only a few minutes from here. Shall I take the turnoff and show it to you?"

It was shut:  they'd already been there and seen there was nothing.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 18, 2015, 02:04:41 PM
And I'd also like to point out that you don't know it was as you put it 'a shithole' because you've never been to one, however Anni could see what it was like from the highway.  The entire drive between the mountain to Strand you can see incredible poverty right beside you all along the road:  you can see it's what you call 'a shithole' the whole way.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 18, 2015, 02:09:29 PM
Really - don't just take my word for it:  you can go on Google Streetview and 'drive' the journey along the N2 from Strand if you don't believe me.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 18, 2015, 02:17:22 PM
It was shut:  they'd already been there and seen there was nothing.

What is "it"? They saw one street (containing Mzolis) before dinner. The townships stretch out for many square kilometres. Why would the Dewanis think that they had seen the entire township precinct during a 3 minute drive by? After dinner it is entirely possible that Tongo told them that there was lots to still show them in the townships and its entirely possible that they believed him. 

Without any further information or a video recording of the conversation we can only speculate. This line of discussion can never prove anything. I really do not understand why you persist with it. 

Can we turn our attention to Carbon copy's post?  Do you have any theories on why the NPA has chosen not to prosecute Mbolombo? 
   

Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 18, 2015, 02:33:03 PM
As stated all over the place including this thread, it's about 45 min drive and it's 'shithole' Townships all the way.  They are all single story shacks the whole way:  you can see for miles, and miles and miles, especially at the beginning of the journey as the motorway rises up by the University and comes back down over the shoulder of the mountain and you can see the whole of Cape Flats laid out before you.

Coming from the UK I personally found it appalling - and I find poverty tourism like that appalling - and it took some time before I'm afraid inevitably I barely registered it - but the Dewanis I imagine will have been used to that kind of poverty having spent time in India.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 18, 2015, 02:39:44 PM
As always, you want to control the debate and narrow the choice of evidence down to fit your agenda.

Your natty little either/or option omits so much and should read more like:
_____________________________

What do you consider more improbable:  a tourist making the unusual decision to re-visit a dangerous township late at night which they already visited an hour earlier so knew the only attraction was shut (Dewani's version)

Or

a gay man who lied by omission when 'marrying' his heterosexual wife (and who was later found not only to have used a gay prostitute but also to have surfed gay bondage websites immediately after his bride's murder) who hired a publicist notorious for twisting the truth in the media, whose story changed about how he got out of a moving car without a scratch (and over whose idea it was to visit the Township anyhow the second time after they had already been there an hour earlier and seen the only attraction shut) who whilst alone with the Taxidriver a few hours earlier conducted a dodgy money transaction instead of using a nearby bank and who secretly texted that TaxiDriver whilst sitting next to his wife about leaving money in the Taxi.(Actual version)


OK - if you prefer, then answer your own either/or question. Which of your two options do you consider to be more improbable?
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: mercury on August 18, 2015, 09:58:07 PM
Hi Mercury,

Yes, I understand what you are saying. We would not defend a character like Dewani, unless we were convinced beyond any shadow of a doubt that he was innocent of all involvement in the crime. He is clearly a dislikeable, dishonourable person in many ways. But your conviction is only based in certain facts, some unknown facts and probably bent in the first place, seeing as you were not there

Allow me to inject a little perspective on the sentiment you have expressed. You are clearly a level headed clear thinking person and I understand that you personally do not "want" anyone to be falsely labeled guilty of a heinous crime. The problem in the Dewani case, is that many people did  (and do) want him to be guilty. NO, people do not want people to be guilty if they are not, they only want them to be guilty if they are

Remember that the backdrop to this murder was a wildly successful, peaceful world cup tournament in which Cape Town proved the doubters wrong. In this context, Anni's murder was a huge blow for the country and the handling of the case makes it readily apparent that.....NO way Jose, I do not believe any country hides murder for tourism, this argument has been touted in many cases, I don't buy it, eslecially as seeing South frica is a place of soooo many murders (didnt ever stop tourists going there)

- SAPS wanted a foreigner to be the perpetrator, rather than local thugs.
- The NPA wanted the same.
- South Africa's police commissioner at the time certainly wanted Dewani to be the culprit - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/southafrica/8191642/Honeymoon-murder-Shrien-Dewani-is-a-monkey-says-South-African-police-chief.html
- The media clearly wanted Shrien to be guilty (see True (44) as the "murdering gay husband" narrative sold lots of papers and commercials
- The SA public also wanted Shrien to be guilty, as it absolved their society of the blame for this young girl's murder. In addition, many South Africans feel exactly the same as Passer-by. They formed an opinion on this murder within a nanosecond of it hitting the news, confirmation bias has driven them ever since and they are wedded to that narrative. We will never convince someone like Passer-by that Dewani is innocent. We know that. People like her never want to admit that their intuition was misguided.
I read the media but only like a comic book, only use it as research...to suggest people decide in someones innocence or guilt according to the Sun or thr Mirror or even the broadsheets which cannot claim any higher moral ground but slightly better reportage is an insult to people in general

We (myself and my dewanifacts partners) struggle to understand this mindset as two of us were in the exact same boat. The difference with us was that we were open minded to admitting that our intuition had been wrong. It is open minded to say your intuition MIGHT be wrong not that it IS wrong
PS as Ive said before I enjoy Passer bys challenges, I dont believe you  should dismiss them, if you are still open minded

Answers in bold
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Carbon Copy on August 18, 2015, 11:15:53 PM
Answers in bold

Mercury, I wouldn't dismiss the impact on tourism angle so quickly.  It's key to understanding why the pursuit of Dewani was so attractive to the Cape Town establishment.  Here's a link for consideration:-

http://www.capetown.travel/industry_blog/entry/the_impact_of_the_dewani_incident_on_local_tourism

Specific comments from the CEO of Cape Town Tourism.  It can't be underestimated.

Also, Passer-by style tales of Cape Town are interesting, especially to the layman, but I've heard it all before.  He/she reminds me very much of a contributor over on another thread who bedazzled many a poster with her local knowledge in a similarly persuasive manner.  She built up quite a following, with others placing a premium on her postings, but ultimately was only applying that knowledge to support her own preconceived ideas.  I see the same thing happening here.

Last thing, if it's an insult to people to say that they are swayed by the media reporting, can I ask you at which point you formed your opinion that Dewani was guilty?  And why? 
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: mercury on August 19, 2015, 12:16:33 AM
Mercury, I wouldn't dismiss the impact on tourism angle so quickly.  It's key to understanding why the pursuit of Dewani was so attractive to the Cape Town establishment.  Here's a link for consideration:-

http://www.capetown.travel/industry_blog/entry/the_impact_of_the_dewani_incident_on_local_tourism

Specific comments from the CEO of Cape Town Tourism.  It can't be underestimated.

Also, Passer-by style tales of Cape Town are interesting, especially to the layman, but I've heard it all before.  He/she reminds me very much of a contributor over on another thread who bedazzled many a poster with her local knowledge in a similarly persuasive manner.  She built up quite a following, with others placing a premium on her postings, but ultimately was only applying that knowledge to support her own preconceived ideas.  I see the same thing happening here.

Last thing, if it's an insult to people to say that they are swayed by the media reporting, can I ask you at which point you formed your opinion that Dewani was guilty?  And why?

By a combination of media reports And his actions statements tv and demeanors after the event

To me Passer Bys commets are genuine knowledgeable and  honest

No one has disproved any  of their contentions /arguments really

Can you give me one sole reason he didnt do it?
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Carbon Copy on August 19, 2015, 02:01:17 AM
By a combination of media reports And his actions statements tv and demeanors after the event

To me Passer Bys commets are genuine knowledgeable and  honest

No one has disproved any  of their contentions /arguments really

Can you give me one sole reason he didnt do it?

Thanks for reply. As you've alluded to above, it's impossible not to have been influenced by the media, which included the way in which his behaviour and demeanour were reported.  I've spent weeks and months discussing all of those types of issues previously, which is why I have said I am reluctant to do it again.

There are those people that accept the judgement, and those that don't.  I'm in the former category.  The point I was trying to make is that if anyone had absorbed the trial coverage in isolation, knowing nothing of the case previously, then surely they could only reach one conclusion - that the judge was correct in dismissing the charges as it was obvious that the gang lied in order to obtain favourable treatment.  The judge all but said this in as many words.  The people that still insist that Dewani was guilty seem to be those that made up their mind prematurely, way before the trial.  That to me is unacceptable - the State case hadn't been tested.  When it was tested, it was found to be based on quicksand.  No truth in it whatsoever.  That really should be reason enough.

I've taken a while to reply as was looking for a link to post, which have now found.  It's a blog written 6 months or so before the trial. This person puts a whole different spin on the local knowledge that we have heard in this thread and pretty much has the case well and truly worked out long before most of us started reading about the details.  Many of the issues discussed in this thread are covered, together with many more and there is quite alarming accuracy in many of the conclusions which were echoed by the judge many months later.  If there is one resource that I would recommend to understand South Africa, and how the conditions were ripe for pursuing Dewani, then this is it. 

Admin; there is even a map included which you any any other readers may find useful for reference.

http://mbolombotongo.blogspot.co.uk/ (http://mbolombotongo.blogspot.co.uk/)

Disclaimer: There appears to be one area in the blog where the author concludes that Dewani paid Tongo for the trip in advance and Tongo likely kept the money.  We know now that that didn't happen but please bear in mind as I stated above that this was written a good 6 months before the trial and so the author didn't have the benefit of the testimony provided in court.  The sentiment is important though, the R10,000 was Tongo's motive to be involved.  He likely wanted to keep it by getting it under his control and make it disappear during the hijack.

Also, I have nothing to do with this blog site and do not know who the author is.  I assume a Capetonian because of the level of detail included but who knows.  Thought I would share.

CC
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 19, 2015, 08:44:48 AM
your conviction is only based in certain facts, some unknown facts and probably bent in the first place, seeing as you were not there

What a strange characterisation of our argument. We place stock in the findings of the one person who heard the evidence first hand. The judge. A well reputed senior judge whose ruling in this case has been backed by her peers globally.

Whilst the evidence wasn't enough to provide the Hindocha family with the answers they required about what really did happen to their Anni, it was more than sufficient to show what didn't happen.  That's why it was chucked out of court. You have asked for a sole reason why he didnt do it. Here's your answer. The hitman story simply does not tally up when you analyse the evidence. The evidence showed that there was never any agreement between Tongo and Dewani. Read my reply #295 on page 20 of this thread. I have posted the same points a few times for your benefit and you haven't acknowledged or attempted to address.

Passer-by's comments may be interesting to those who haven't heard them before but they really aren't particularly intelligent, groundbreaking or helpful in discerning the truth in this case. They are basically just tired re-rendering of the same old arguments that were thrashed by the British tabloid media and repeated on discussion forums and social media for four years.

On Passerby-s own admission, she has no actual evidence that Dewani was involved. Her entire argument is based on the unlikelihood of Dewani's story.

Dewanifacts has spent so long on here arguing with me - drawing out more and more information about the unlikelihood of Dewani's story

Her overly verbose wordy posts can be succinctly summarised as being geared toward showing:

- how unlikely it was that the Dewanis would be interested in doing a city sightseeing tour when there was so much to see and do right near their hotel
- how unlikely it was that the Dewanis would trust their taxi driver and allow him to drive them into a township twice in an evening
- how unlikely it was that Dewani would change money at the jewellery store
- how unlikely it was that Dewani would arrange a helicopter ride through the taxi driver and not the many handy tourism services near their hotel
- how unlikely it was that Dewani would be released unhurt and without a scratch on him
- how unlikely it was that Dewani did not realise that he had been hoodwinked by the taxi driver and still pitied him and paid him money he felt he owed

In light of Dewani's gay duplicitous double life, Passer-by contends that this story is too unlikely to be true.

Her contentions aren't necessarily outrageous or without reason. There are undoubtedly elements that seem highly unlikely. They simply do not constitute evidence and they are particularly problematic when you consider the unlikelihood of the alternative scenario and the indisputable fact that one of these two unlikely scenarios did in fact take place because otherwise Anni would still be alive.

Here's the alternative scenario and a few of the highly unlikely events contained within. If one believes the hitman story to be true, then one believes that each and every one of these highly unlikely occurences took place.

The judge didn't buy it. Do you?

Planning stage:

- a man decides to kill his wife of 2 weeks on honeymoon
- this man asks the first taxi driver he meets to organise this murder
- this taxi driver says he cannot help because he is not a criminal, but immediately says that he knows a man who can. Monde Mbolombo
- the taxi driver calls Mbolombo who also says that he is not a criminal and cannot help but conveniently knows a couple of people who can and he immediately calls them and arranges the murder
- these 4 men agree to commit this heinous crime for a 1/4 or 1/5 share of R15000 each, despite 2 of them being fully employed and their share of the proceeds being equivalent to a few days salary.
- the taxi driver is willing to risk his car which is his livelihood all for this paltry return

Operational stage:

- the taxi driver makes no effort to ensure that the money is in the glovebox as "agreed" before the first pass through Gugulethu
- the man does not even have the "agreed" R15000 on his person  so he is short changing the two unknown dangerous gunmen who will be carrying out his murder operation whilst he is in the taxi with them.

The aftermath stage:

- the man who is clearly aware of cctv cameras everywhere, borrows a policemans phone to invite the taxi driver back to a hotel to receive the balance of the murder payment
- 3 of the 4 conspirators at first admit that it was a robbery gone wrong and describe the man as an innocent victim, corroborating the story told by the man
- suddenly like dominoes, all 3 conspirators change their story to implicate the man - in exchange for generous lenient sentences.

The court process stage:

- Whilst telling this "truthful" story in court, the conspirators contradict each other on each and every material detail relating to the crime and are caught fabricating evidence to incriminate the man, despite their plea deals being contingent upon telling the truth.

Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 19, 2015, 10:47:44 AM
By a combination of media reports And his actions statements tv and demeanors after the event

That's not a combination, mercury. Those are all things you saw or read in media reports by media organisations who were heavily invested in selling one version of events.

Would it surprise you to know that journalists who questioned the gay murdering husband narrative could not get their stories published in most publications?

Senior British newspaper editors are quoted as saying "we only want stuff that shows Shrien did it".
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 19, 2015, 12:52:29 PM
What a strange characterisation of our argument. We place stock in the findings of the one person who heard the evidence first hand. The judge. A well reputed senior judge whose ruling in this case has been backed by her peers globally.

Whilst the evidence wasn't enough to provide the Hindocha family with the answers they required about what really did happen to their Anni, it was more than sufficient to show what didn't happen.  That's why it was chucked out of court. You have asked for a sole reason why he didnt do it. Here's your answer. The hitman story simply does not tally up when you analyse the evidence. The evidence showed that there was never any agreement between Tongo and Dewani. Read my reply #295 on page 20 of this thread. I have posted the same points a few times for your benefit and you haven't acknowledged or attempted to address.

Passer-by's comments may be interesting to those who haven't heard them before but they really aren't particularly intelligent, groundbreaking or helpful in discerning the truth in this case. They are basically just tired re-rendering of the same old arguments that were thrashed by the British tabloid media and repeated on discussion forums and social media for four years.

On Passerby-s own admission, she has no actual evidence that Dewani was involved. Her entire argument is based on the unlikelihood of Dewani's story.

Her overly verbose wordy posts can be succinctly summarised as being geared toward showing:

- how unlikely it was that the Dewanis would be interested in doing a city sightseeing tour when there was so much to see and do right near their hotel
- how unlikely it was that the Dewanis would trust their taxi driver and allow him to drive them into a township twice in an evening
- how unlikely it was that Dewani would change money at the jewellery store
- how unlikely it was that Dewani would arrange a helicopter ride through the taxi driver and not the many handy tourism services near their hotel
- how unlikely it was that Dewani would be released unhurt and without a scratch on him
- how unlikely it was that Dewani did not realise that he had been hoodwinked by the taxi driver and still pitied him and paid him money he felt he owed

In light of Dewani's gay duplicitous double life, Passer-by contends that this story is too unlikely to be true.

Her contentions aren't necessarily outrageous or without reason. There are undoubtedly elements that seem highly unlikely. They simply do not constitute evidence and they are particularly problematic when you consider the unlikelihood of the alternative scenario and the indisputable fact that one of these two unlikely scenarios did in fact take place because otherwise Anni would still be alive.

Here's the alternative scenario and a few of the highly unlikely events contained within. If one believes the hitman story to be true, then one believes that each and every one of these highly unlikely occurences took place.

The judge didn't buy it. Do you?

Planning stage:

- a man decides to kill his wife of 2 weeks on honeymoon
- this man asks the first taxi driver he meets to organise this murder
- this taxi driver says he cannot help because he is not a criminal, but says that he knows a man who can. Monde Mbolombo
- the taxi driver calls Mbolombo who also says that he is not a criminal and cannot help but conveniently knows a couple of people who can and he calls them and arranges the murder
- these 4 men agree to commit this heinous crime for a 1/4 or 1/5 share of R15000 each, despite 2 of them being fully employed and their share of the proceeds being equivalent to a few days salary.
- the taxi driver is willing to risk his car which is his livelihood all for this paltry return

Operational stage:

- the taxi driver makes no effort to ensure that the money is in the glovebox as "agreed" before the first pass through Gugulethu
- the man does not even have the "agreed" R15000 on his person  so he is short changing the two unknown dangerous gunmen who will be carrying out his murder operation whilst he is in the taxi with them.

The aftermath stage:

- the man who is clearly aware of cctv cameras everywhere, borrows a policemans phone to invite the taxi driver back to a hotel to receive the balance of the murder payment
- 3 of the 4 conspirators at first admit that it was a robbery gone wrong and describe the man as an innocent victim, corroborating the story told by the man
- suddenly like dominoes, all 3 conspirators change their story to implicate the man - in exchange for generous lenient sentences.

The court process stage:

- Whilst telling this "truthful" story in court, the conspirators contradict each other on each and every material detail relating to the crime and are caught fabricating evidence to incriminate the man, despite their plea deals being contingent upon telling the truth.

"Overly verbose" - excellent use of irony Dewanifacts:  have a House Merit!
 *&*%£
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 19, 2015, 01:01:49 PM
Have you got any more anecdotes about how unlikely it is for tourists to trust a taxi driver to take them to a township?

Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 19, 2015, 01:13:34 PM
Dewanifacts you simply can't get your heads around the fact that you are trying to win in the Court of The People.  The Court of The People overwhelmingly uses the circumstantial evidence you keep rejecting.  The burden of proof is indeed flipped:  you are indeed having to find facts to prove Dewani's innocence, which is an uphill struggle.  This is why a sensible man - an innocent sensible man - would have used an appearance in court to prove to the world his innocence beyond all doubt.  He would have been aghast and guilty that he hadn't managed to defend his wife and even - or especially - if innocent he would have prostrated himself before Anni's father and begged his forgiveness for not taking care of her.  If he was innocent he would be wracked with guilt, not riding rough-shod over her family and having a celebratory pizza-party.  Like his father-in-law, he would be going to Cape Town to find answers, get to know the dynamics of the people and their culture, offering a large reward for information, etc.

All he has ever done beyond an initial disasterous interview with the BBC is one controlled interview arranged by a lying, criminal publicist.

Let's see what happens if he has to give evidence at the UK inquest when it resumes.

In the meantime you are trying to use the rules of a court of law in the Court Of The People:  I'm afraid here it's very much 'balance of probabilty' not 'beyond all reasonable doubt' - and in Scotland I'm pretty sure in both courts he would have got a verdict of 'not proven'.

He can't be arsed to defend himself, he really doesn't deserve you doing so.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 19, 2015, 01:16:04 PM
Have you got any more anecdotes about how unlikely it is for tourists to trust a taxi driver to take them to a township?

Got any more fantasies about him being naive enough to think a poor illegal taxi driver could organise a helicopter to land on the moon Table Mountain?
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 19, 2015, 01:32:27 PM
  you are indeed having to find facts to prove Dewani's innocence,

We don't need to find anything. The facts were all presented in court. There was overwhelmingly strong evidence that no agreement existed between Zola Tongo and Shrien Dewani, and that the hitman story was fabricated by three criminals who had a very strong incentive to do so.

As for why Dewani hasn't spoken. We've already discussed this. I've twice in this thread elaborated with my own personal thoughts on why he possibly hasn't spoken, and my own personal view that he would do himself a great service if he did indeed speak to explain some of his actions.

Are you going to share your thoughts on why the NPA is declining to prosecute Mbolmobo?

Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 19, 2015, 01:36:22 PM
Just to help you a long a bit, you have repeatedly said or inferred that in an interview with journalist Nick Parker he said he was hoping to arrange a helicopter trip 'up to the top of Table Mountain' - the helicopters fly round it, but you fantasised that the reason he didn't arrange it himself by telephoning the company or walking round to it he had been - purely in your fantasy - persuaded that the Taxidriver could cut a special deal to get a helicopter to actually land on top illegally - and you f[ censored word]ised that that was what he really meant by 'up to the top of Table Mountain'

Herewith a Guardian article citing Nick Parker's evidence in court:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/20/male-escort-shrien-dewani-sell-story-sun-court (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/20/male-escort-shrien-dewani-sell-story-sun-court)

"As part of his defence, Dewani says that while he did bring this cash on that journey, it was intended not as payment for murder, but as a deposit on a surprise helicopter trip he and the taxi driver were planning for later in couple’s Cape Town stay.  Parker confirmed that Dewani made no mention of such a helicopter trip during his tape-recorded 80-minute interview."

I've given you stacks of 'anecdotes' about the helicopter, including a map marking how close it was to the hotel, pointed out the ease of finding out its phone number, etc.  and you have ignored the lot.

See, my anecdotes are based in fact whereas your fantasies are based in your fertile imagination.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 19, 2015, 01:39:45 PM
We don't need to find anything. The facts were all presented in court. There was overwhelmingly strong evidence that no agreement existed between Zola Tongo and Shrien Dewani, and that the hitman story was fabricated by three criminals who had a very strong incentive to do so.

As for why Dewani hasn't spoken. We've already discussed this. I've twice in this thread elaborated with my own personal thoughts on why he possibly hasn't spoken, and my own personal view that he would do himself a great service if he did indeed speak to explain some of his actions.

Are you going to share your thoughts on why the NPA is declining to prosecute Mbolmobo?

I should imagine because they've already f***ed up the rest of it.  You clearly haven't got the scale of crime, especially murders, they are having to deal with.  So many cases end like this.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 19, 2015, 01:50:59 PM
Just to help you a long a bit, you have repeatedly said or inferred that in an interview with journalist Nick Parker he said he was hoping to arrange a helicopter trip 'up to the top of Table Mountain' - the helicopters fly round it, but you fantasised that the reason he didn't arrange it himself by telephoning the company or walking round to it he had been - purely in your fantasy - persuaded that the Taxidriver could cut a special deal to get a helicopter to actually land on top illegally - and you f[ censored word]ised that that was what he really meant by 'up to the top of Table Mountain'

Herewith a Guardian article citing Nick Parker's evidence in court:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/20/male-escort-shrien-dewani-sell-story-sun-court (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/20/male-escort-shrien-dewani-sell-story-sun-court)

"As part of his defence, Dewani says that while he did bring this cash on that journey, it was intended not as payment for murder, but as a deposit on a surprise helicopter trip he and the taxi driver were planning for later in couple’s Cape Town stay.  Parker confirmed that Dewani made no mention of such a helicopter trip during his tape-recorded 80-minute interview."

I've given you stacks of 'anecdotes' about the helicopter, including a map marking how close it was to the hotel, pointed out the ease of finding out its phone number, etc.  and you have ignored the lot.

See, my anecdotes are based in fact whereas your fantasies are based in your fertile imagination.

Yet again, you've gotten it wrong. I have never stated that the journalist was Nick Parker. The journalist was in fact Dan Newling. The information is elaborated upon in his book "Bitter Dawn", but it alluded to in this article.

http://www.express.co.uk/comment/expresscomment/545226/Dan-Newling-journalist-comment-Shrien-Dewani-case-built-sand-plea-bargains



Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 19, 2015, 01:53:54 PM
.  So many cases end like this.

Can you tell me some of these "many" cases where witnesses have perjured themselves, had their immunity from prosecution withdrawn by a judge and then been given a free pass by the NPA?

Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 19, 2015, 02:12:40 PM
Can you tell me some of these "many" cases where witnesses have perjured themselves, had their immunity from prosecution withdrawn by a judge and then been given a free pass by the NPA?

No:  can you tell me how many haven't?
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 19, 2015, 02:13:55 PM

I've given you stacks of 'anecdotes' about the helicopter, including a map marking how close it was to the hotel, pointed out the ease of finding out its phone number, etc.  and you have ignored the lot.

See, my anecdotes are based in fact whereas your fantasies are based in your fertile imagination.

I have not ignored your anecdotes. I have labeled them irrelevant because they don't bring us any closer to the truth.

There is a sandwich shop across the road from where I work. In 15 years I have never once bought a sandwich from there. I buy my sandwiches from another shop that is further away and is more expensive. I know this story must seem completely insane to you, but I can assure you that is the truth, no matter how unlikely you may deem it to be.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 19, 2015, 02:15:19 PM
No:  can you tell me how many haven't?

No, however I'm not the one making outlandish claims as to the outcomes of "many" cases. 

I'm glad we cleared that up quickly.

Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 19, 2015, 02:26:02 PM
Yet again, you've gotten it wrong. I have never stated that the journalist was Nick Parker. The journalist was in fact Dan Newling. The information is elaborated upon in his book "Bitter Dawn", but it alluded to in this article.

http://www.express.co.uk/comment/expresscomment/545226/Dan-Newling-journalist-comment-Shrien-Dewani-case-built-sand-plea-bargains

I'm sorry, I got the reporter wrong.  But I still don't see where it says the Taxidriver told Dewani he could organise the helicopter trip at all, let alone getting it to do something illegal. And I still don't know why a millionaire who can afford a helicopter trip and budgeted £4000 cash in addition to his credit card would save himself maybe £20 tops on using an illegal taxi in the car park instead of a legal taxi parked right outside the airport exit to have got himself hooked up with this person in the first place.  I still haven't heard any evidence about how he managed to bypass all the legal taxis nor anything to link the Taxidriver to an alleged helicopter trip.

Nor have I got much of a response to my posts highlighting the strange behaviour of changing 'money' (dollars? gold?) at a dodgy jewellers shop, nor why he didn't either give the Taxidriver the money to arrange the helicopter trip there and then or either drive round to the point of the Waterfront at that time to arrange it direct with the pilot himself.

Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 19, 2015, 02:30:26 PM
Still plugging away at the unlikelihoods I see.

Doesn't look like you have much interest in examining the unlikelihoods in the alternative scenario mentioned in reply #324. Given those ones a wide berth, you have.

 
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 19, 2015, 02:34:46 PM
No, however I'm not the one making outlandish claims as to the outcomes of "many" cases. 

I'm glad we cleared that up quickly.

No, you're making your own 'outlandish claims'.

Report by The South African Law Commission
Paragraph 5.1, Figure 2
http://www.justice.gov.za/salrc/rpapers/rp18.pdf (http://www.justice.gov.za/salrc/rpapers/rp18.pdf)

"Only 5.7% of the sampled violent crime cases had resulted in a conviction two years after the report of those crimes to the Police".

And you place a lot of value on what "learned" judges of South Africa say, so are you happy now?  So let's hear no more about the prosecution of the hotel receptionist who wasn't at the murder and concentrate on Dewani, who was.

Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 19, 2015, 02:39:17 PM
We're very much concerned with the hotel receptionist being a free man, despite having admitted playing a key role in the operation that took Anni's life. Justice has been done with Shrien Dewani's acquittal.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 19, 2015, 02:40:00 PM
Still plugging away at the unlikelihoods I see.

Doesn't look like you have much interest in examining the unlikelihoods in the alternative scenario mentioned in reply #324. Given those ones a wide berth, you have.

 

No, I'm plugging away at the likelihoods: 

the likelihood of him pitching up from India with gold, changing it to rand in the illegal and unrecorded money-change in the dodgy jewellers right next to a bank and giving Tongo half the cash up front for the hit, followed by the money he was supposed to leave in the Taxi - the money he was secretly texting the Taxidriver about whilst the two of them were in the car with Anni right before her murder - being the balance of payment.

But you won't address that for some reason - and you have no facts to explain it.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 19, 2015, 02:42:59 PM
We're very much concerned with the hotel receptionist being a free man, despite having admitted playing a key role in the operation that took Anni's life. Justice has been done with Shrien Dewani's acquittal.

I will be disengaging from further discussion with you. Your posts are becoming more and more aggressive and less and less rational.

Nothing aggressive in my posts:  incessant mudslinging and aggression in yours.  You asked for proof against my 'outlandish' suggestion the outcome with the receptionist was perfectly normal and I have replied with facst from the South African Law Commission showing it was not outlandish it was true.

But thank you for conceding you've got no reply to it, not even conjecture or fantasy.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 19, 2015, 02:45:56 PM
@)(++(*

Quite.  The woman in the jewellers which specialises in processing dodgy gold jewelry admitted it was an illegal exchange, she made no record of it - a very serious offence in a gold mining country - and she claimed he gave her dollars and her assistant told police in a statement he gave her gold.

Dewani claims he only took sterling on holiday with him.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 19, 2015, 03:04:42 PM
So here is

1) a map showing the proximity of the hotel to banks at the V&A - hotel marked by the bottom star, helicopter trips office and departure marked by the top star.

2) the location of the dodgy jewellers (now the bottom star) that Dewani visited and transacted an illegal currency exchange in the 45 minutes he left Anni alone by the hotel pool whilst he vanished with Tongo the Taxi driver a few hours before the murder, it also shows he was surrounded by banks, given he was of course in the Central Business District (i have to admit even I was astonished when I researched this to find I've even been in that 'jewellers' which was operating even when the CBD was a no-go zone),

3) a photograph courtesy of Google Streetview showing the pedestrianised road where the 'jewellers' is - it's just down a few doors on the right but not clearly visible.  Of course the stonking great bank-like building on the left is First National Bank, which changes currency.


[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 19, 2015, 03:13:01 PM
Here is another equally relevant image courtesy of our compadres at Google.

(http://static2.stuff.co.nz/1307481108/557/5113557.jpg)

Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 19, 2015, 03:28:27 PM
Here is another equally relevant image courtesy of our compadres at Google.

(http://static2.stuff.co.nz/1307481108/557/5113557.jpg)

Well found:  I think it should be your profile pic.

So you absolutely cannot counter what Dewani was doing illegally changing money with the Txi Driver hours before th emir dear, or where that money went.

I strongly suggest you keep debating or anyone who googles 'Dewanifacts' will find this post and - in the Court if The People - judge you accordingly.  Especially as this website has far more web hits than yours thanks to other cases so will keep appearing in google searches.

In a way it's quite fitting you've chosen that photo for your epitaph.  Go and tell Shrien he will always look guilty in the eyes of the public.  Unless, of course, you are he . . . ?
 8(0(*
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 19, 2015, 03:37:18 PM
Excellent! This thread now comes up twice on the first page of a Google search for 'Dewanifacts'!
 8(>((
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 19, 2015, 03:41:55 PM
I'm fairly certain that the "court if the People" can spot mental deficiency at close range.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 19, 2015, 03:44:12 PM
Yes, I too am pretty certain they can distinguish between a member of the public typing one-fingered with autocorrect fired-up and someone with a clear Agenda who wriggles away from awkward questions by flinging insults around.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 19, 2015, 03:55:10 PM
You're asking someone to debate points that they have already conceded. As reply #324 indicated, we readily admit that there are elements of Dewani's story that seem unlikely. Lets move on. Turn your attention to the second scenario and the sequence of exceptionally unlikely events that one would need to believe occurred, in order for the hitman story to be true.

A senior judge didn't buy it.

If you are so desperate for this "debate" to continue then you need to address those improbabilities as outlined in reply #324 and explain why the judge got it wrong. I realise you are going to struggle with this because it means you cannot use the words gay and google street view, but lets see what you've got. 

Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 19, 2015, 04:06:47 PM
Here is another equally relevant image courtesy of our compadres at Google.

(http://static2.stuff.co.nz/1307481108/557/5113557.jpg)

Dewanifacts, Dewanifacts, Dewanifacts:  you do yourself no favours.  I think I'm going to reply to this post a lot.

So you never have answered what Dewani was doing for 45 minutes with the Taxi driver a few hours before the murders.  It's a fact recorded on the hotel CCTV.

1). It's also a fact he carried out an illegal currency change.

2). It's also a fact we don't know exactly how much money he got.

3). And it's a fact we don't know what he did with it.

4). It's a fact he could, whilst away from Anni, have nipped round to organise the helicopter trip, but didn't

5). It's a fact he could have given some of it to the taxi driver

6) and it's a fact he was planning to give the Taxi driver more money by leaving it in the Taxi during at the time Anni was murdered.

7).  It's a fact he changed his story about whose idea it was to go to the Township after engaging a PR specialist

8).  It's a fact he changed his story about how he escaped from the car without a scratch on him after engaging a PR specialist

9).  It's a fact he lied by omission about his sexuality over and over again to Anni, her family and his own family

10).  It's a fact he gave the Taxidriver more money in an envelope after the murders

11).  It's a fact he was surfing gay bondage sites on his laptop in the hotel with his grieving father-in-law nearby 3 days after Anni's murder - the same day he angrily corrected the BBC reporter - but claimed to be too traumatised to answer questions about how he got out of the car unscathed.

12).  It's a fact that whilst he has threatened to sue newspapers who ran stories about him being gay - later dropped - and to sue various people in South Africa for causing him to be prosecuted, he has never contributed anything to ensuring Anni's murderers are properly punished.

13).  It's a fact that whilst he needed a private jet with doctors and nurses provided at the expense of South African taxpayers to fly him to the trial, he was well enough to get on a scheduled flight and sip champagne to go home again.

All these facts are too awkward and you have only countered them with speculation and conjecture.

He's as guilty as sin and damned by his own actions.



Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 19, 2015, 04:12:00 PM
You're asking someone to debate points that they have already conceded. As reply #324 indicated, we readily admit that there are elements of Dewani's story that seem unlikely. Lets move on. Turn your attention to the second scenario and the sequence of exceptionally unlikely events that one would need to believe occurred, in order for the hitman story to be true.

A senior judge didn't buy it.

If you are so desperate for this "debate" to continue then you need to address those improbabilities as outlined in reply #324 and explain why the judge got it wrong. I realise you are going to struggle with this because it means you cannot use the words gay and google street view, but lets see what you've got.

Always counter by sending me off on a wild goose chase.  Not everything we have discussed here was put before the judge,, so her judgment has no bearing:  she only made a judgement on what was before her.

We could theoretically have CCTV footage emerge of Dewani shooting Anni himself but he still could not be convicted of murder and her judgement would still be recorded and still stand.

So here we are again, you ordering me about instead of addressing what he did with the money from the jewellers shop and why he did an illegal transaction, and completely ignoring the slight issue of him only having sterling but the shop owner saying he changed dollars and her assistant saying she changed gold.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 19, 2015, 04:12:56 PM
Here is another equally relevant image courtesy of our compadres at Google.

(http://static2.stuff.co.nz/1307481108/557/5113557.jpg)

Damn:  I forgot to add this picture you posted #Dewanifacts
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Angelo222 on August 19, 2015, 04:16:24 PM
Let's keep the discussion amiable gents otherwise readers lose interest.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 19, 2015, 04:23:11 PM
Here is another equally relevant image courtesy of our compadres at Google.

(http://static2.stuff.co.nz/1307481108/557/5113557.jpg)

#Dewanifacts I am also still waiting to hear your response to that report by The South African Law Commission confirming I was not making "outlandish" statements about the prosecution rate of serious crimes like murde right, rape and violent robbery.

Come on:  you implied I was lying, I've proven I was not - an apology would be nice.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 19, 2015, 04:26:42 PM
Let's keep the discussion amiable gents otherwise readers lose interest.

I think I'm doing quite well at keeping it amiable, despite #Dewanifacts posting a picture of a Fallas in reply to my post showing research on Streetview helpfully showing readers of this thread the location of Dewani's hotel and the illegal money exchange in relation to nearby banks.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 20, 2015, 10:37:29 AM
#Dewanifacts I am also still waiting to hear your response to that report by The South African Law Commission confirming I was not making "outlandish" statements about the prosecution rate of serious crimes

You were not asked to spit out a random unsolved crime statistic. You were asked whether you could substantiate your claim that "so many cases end like this" ("this" being a criminal getting a free pass despite having indemnity withdrawn and having confessed to his deep involvement in a crime that resulted in murder).

You cannot substantiate it.

We know this because we have researched this scenario and have been unable to find a single case that even comes close to being similar. The instance of Mbolombo is unique and proffers many questions, although the answers are in plain sight.

The NPA is scared to prosecute Mbolombo, for (as John and Carbon Copy pointed out earlier in the thread), it would open a can of worms that would explode in their faces. Once Mbolombo was facing 25+ years in prison, he would sing like a canary and blow the lid on the entire malicious prosecution of Shrien Dewani.

Mbolombo would likely continue to cover for the fifth conspirator due to personal safety fears, but he would hold no loyalty toward the SAPS or the NPA. He would expose the ineptitude of the SAPS and the NPA who failed to verify the hitman story before building high profile prosecutions upon it. He would expose their complicity in framing Shrien Dewani and pursuing a malicious prosecution by dangling attractive plea deals in the faces of the real criminals in exchange for their fabricated testimony about a murder for hire. He would expose the despicable way in which the Hindocha family were misled by the NPA into approving such generous plea deals for the armed kidnappers who took the life of their daughter. 

The fallout would be tremendous. High profile figures in South Africa would be exposed - Rodney de Kock, Bheki Cele, Justice Robert Henney to name but a few who would be dragged into the spotlight. 

That is why Mblolombo continues to enjoy his freedom and that is why we will continue to expose and publicise this miscarriage of justice.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 20, 2015, 11:19:48 AM
No, however I'm not the one making outlandish claims as to the outcomes of "many" cases. 

I'm glad we cleared that up quickly.


I said "so many cases end like this" - ie, the perpetrator doesn't go to prison.  You, in that faux-teacher styling you pompously adopt, sent me off to prove it and I did:  I found you this chart in a report from The South African Law Commission that shows up how many cases hadn't even gone to Court 2 years later.  I'm still waiting for you to prove your point that Mbolombo's case is somehow special, but you can't substantiate it:  it's just another of your speculations.

So here we go again:  another one of your Nit-Picking Fests as a smoke-screen.

You're ompletely unashamed at posting lewd photos in response to my very relevant and informative posts for the benefit of other readers of this thread:  I said you'd shown your true colours when you played the racism card (such a tired cliché) and you've shown yourself up in all your unpleasant glory even more now.

I wonder what it was about that post showing the proximity of the 'jewelry shop' and hotel to lots of banks that made you completely lose it.

Whatever:  it certainly shows how emotionally involved you are in this case.  Me, I'm just a Passer-by - but you're clearly close to Dewani, or indeed are even Dewani himself.  You have an Agenda.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 20, 2015, 12:14:24 PM
Who wants me to post photos and maps of my local sandwich shops?

Lets put it to a vote!
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: John on August 20, 2015, 02:25:33 PM
Who wants me to post photos and maps of my local sandwich shops?

Lets put it to a vote!

Apologies if I ask a question which you might have already answered DF but what is your interest in the case?
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 20, 2015, 02:47:52 PM
No need to apologise John. That is detailed on our site.

Our Agenda (https://dewanifacts.wordpress.com/our-agenda/)
About this site (https://dewanifacts.wordpress.com/about-this-site/)

Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 20, 2015, 03:22:18 PM
I guess those pages don't say that much about us personally. We are three people who took an interest in the case. We are united in our belief that the police and the courts in South Africa failed Anni, Shrien, the Hindocha family, the Dewani family and moreover they failed the South African people by bungling this case from start to finish.

A miscarriage of justice if ever there was one.

Mngeni got what he deserved and at least Tongo and Qwabe are doing some time in prison but to date, Anni has been cheated of justice. We hope to change that.



Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: John on August 20, 2015, 04:46:58 PM
I guess those pages don't say that much about us personally. We are three people who took an interest in the case. We are united in our belief that the police and the courts in South Africa failed Anni, Shrien, the Hindocha family, the Dewani family and moreover they failed the South African people by bungling this case from start to finish.

A miscarriage of justice if ever there was one.

Mngeni got what he deserved and at least Tongo and Qwabe are doing some time in prison but to date, Anni has been cheated of justice. We hope to change that.

Do you think Mngeni was dumped on by Qwabe?   There is some thought that it was Qwabe who fired the fatal shot and not Mngeni who was merely a convenient scape goat?
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 20, 2015, 05:11:10 PM
Its not just "some thought" that it was Qwabe who shot Anni. Judge Traverso made a catagoric determination to that effect based on the forensic evidence. Read from paragraphs 24.1.24  of the judgement. http://www.saflii.org/za/cases/ZAWCHC/2014/188.html

I am speculating but yes I think Qwabe was the smartest and most beguiling of the group - even more so than Tongo. When he realised that he was effectively f**ked, he ratted out his friend and collaborated with Mbolombo to invent the "hitman" story on Thursday 18th November 2010. Both Qwabe and Mbolombo initially admitted to a robbery gone wrong but then changed their stories to incriminate Dewani.

I really do not mean to keep plugging our own site but we have written a few blog posts that explain the sequence and the issues in detail. You need to understand the order in which these guys confessed to understand their motivations and thinking at each stage of the process.

https://dewanifacts.wordpress.com/2015/07/15/anni-dewanis-murder-who-pulled-the-trigger-and-why-it-matters/

https://dewanifacts.wordpress.com/2015/08/03/the-truth-is-in-the-confessions-2/

https://dewanifacts.wordpress.com/2015/08/10/the-trial-of-xolile-mngeni-a-cesspit-of-controversy/
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 20, 2015, 05:32:39 PM
One of the big unknowns (and this will be added to our site now I think about it) is what exactly caused Qwabe to change his story at 5:21pm on the 18th November. Its likely that SAPS played a role. Did a policeman come straight out and say to Qwabe and Mbolombo "you're f**ked but we can show you a way out of this. Help us nail the husband"? 

It is precisely these types of details that SAPS and the NPA do not want aired and that is what would happen if Mbolombo was prosecuted.

At best, SAPS were stupid, blind, negligent and allowed themselves to be played by criminals.

At worst, SAPS wilfully tried to frame an innocent man who also happened to have been a victim of a horrible crime.

I am sure that Passerby and many others think he deserved it because he's gay gay and oh so gay. Speaking of that topic, I wonder if Dewani's email address was one of those compromised in the Ashley Madison hack!   
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: John on August 20, 2015, 08:34:31 PM
One of the big unknowns (and this will be added to our site now I think about it) is what exactly caused Qwabe to change his story at 5:21pm on the 18th November. Its likely that SAPS played a role. Did a policeman come straight out and say to Qwabe and Mbolombo "you're f**ked but we can show you a way out of this. Help us nail the husband"? 

It is precisely these types of details that SAPS and the NPA do not want aired and that is what would happen if Mbolombo was prosecuted.

At best, SAPS were stupid, blind, negligent and allowed themselves to be played by criminals.

At worst, SAPS wilfully tried to frame an innocent man who also happened to have been a victim of a horrible crime.

I am sure that Passerby and many others think he deserved it because he's gay gay and oh so gay. Speaking of that topic, I wonder if Dewani's email address was one of those compromised in the Ashley Madison hack!

Looking at what has happened to Pistorius I wouldn't like to be in Dewani's shoes just yet.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 20, 2015, 09:30:02 PM
Dewanifacts, Dewanifacts, Dewanifacts:  you do yourself no favours.  I think I'm going to reply to this post a lot.

So you never have answered what Dewani was doing for 45 minutes with the Taxi driver a few hours before the murders.  It's a fact recorded on the hotel CCTV.

1). It's also a fact he carried out an illegal currency change.

2). It's also a fact we don't know exactly how much money he got.

3). And it's a fact we don't know what he did with it.

4). It's a fact he could, whilst away from Anni, have nipped round to organise the helicopter trip, but didn't

5). It's a fact he could have given some of it to the taxi driver

6) and it's a fact he was planning to give the Taxi driver more money by leaving it in the Taxi during at the time Anni was murdered.

7).  It's a fact he changed his story about whose idea it was to go to the Township after engaging a PR specialist

8).  It's a fact he changed his story about how he escaped from the car without a scratch on him after engaging a PR specialist

9).  It's a fact he lied by omission about his sexuality over and over again to Anni, her family and his own family

10).  It's a fact he gave the Taxidriver more money in an envelope after the murders

11).  It's a fact he was surfing gay bondage sites on his laptop in the hotel with his grieving father-in-law nearby 3 days after Anni's murder - the same day he angrily corrected the BBC reporter - but claimed to be too traumatised to answer questions about how he got out of the car unscathed.

12).  It's a fact that whilst he has threatened to sue newspapers who ran stories about him being gay - later dropped - and to sue various people in South Africa for causing him to be prosecuted, he has never contributed anything to ensuring Anni's murderers are properly punished.

13).  It's a fact that whilst he needed a private jet with doctors and nurses provided at the expense of South African taxpayers to fly him to the trial, he was well enough to get on a scheduled flight and sip champagne to go home again.

All these facts are too awkward and you have only countered them with speculation and conjecture.

He's as guilty as sin and damned by his own actions.

I can't for the life of me think why the blog isn't called 'Mbolombofacts' or 'Qwabefacts' or 'Tongofacts'.  Meanwhile this thread is about Dewani, so let's remind ourselves of the above facts and not get distracted.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: John on August 20, 2015, 09:39:13 PM
The finger marks on Anni's lower left leg indicate that she was restrained before her death according to the Judge's report.  That in itself could indicate an attempted rape which went badly wrong when the gun was discharged.  Anyone any views on this?
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 20, 2015, 09:47:16 PM
The finger marks on Anni's lower left leg indicate that she was restrained before her death according to the Judge's report.  That in itself could indicate an attempted rape which went badly wrong when the gun was discharged.  Anyone any views on this?

It could just as easily indicate that either if the passengers blocking her into the car - her husband and Tongo - gripped her by the thigh to stop her trying to climb over them and out.  The bottom line is if they had wanted to rape her they could have.  The fact she wasn't raped raised lots of eyebrows amongst the locals - and she was found by waste ground, so they could easily have raped her.  Bruising on the wrists would be more likely.

I'd say they aimed at her head and she 'backed away' and up towards the rear window and it got her in the throat.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 20, 2015, 09:50:54 PM
I guess that's case closed then. We have the findings of forensic genius, Passer-by.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 20, 2015, 09:51:18 PM
Who wants me to post photos and maps of my local sandwich shops?

Lets put it to a vote!

Er, have you completely lost the plot . . . ?
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: John on August 20, 2015, 09:53:36 PM
It could just as easily indicate that either if the passengers blocking her into the car - her husband and Tongo - gripped her by the thigh to stop her trying to climb over them and out.  The bottom line is if they had wanted to rape her they could have.  The fact she wasn't raped raised lots of eyebrows amongst the locals - and she was found by waste ground, so they could easily have raped her.  Bruising on the wrists would be more likely.

I'd say they aimed at her head and she 'backed away' and up towards the rear window and it got her in the throat.

Strangely too, it was the kitchen gloves worn by Qwabe that had the gunshot residue on them yet he claimed that it was Mngeni who shot Anni?
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 20, 2015, 09:54:23 PM
I guess that's case closed then. We have the findings of forensic genius, Passer-by.

It is the case closed:  Dewani was acquitted.

So when are you going to change your name to reflect your alleged fight for 'justice' for the other 3?  And when are you going to post any links to a petition, South African Ministers, campaign groups etc concerning those 3?

It's plain as a pike staff you're a mate of Dewani or Dewani himself trying to throw up a smokescreen to hide all the facts about Dewani's behaviour that caste him in a bad light.

*ouch!*  'cast' - typo, obviously - don't want you getting that racism card out again! 
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 20, 2015, 09:56:34 PM
Strangely too, it was the kitchen gloves worn by Qwabe that had the gunshot residue on them yet he claimed that it was Mngeni who shot Anni?

 I think you need to ask Dewanifacts for statistics on how many rapists wear kitchen gloves.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 20, 2015, 09:58:10 PM
The finger marks on Anni's lower left leg indicate that she was restrained before her death according to the Judge's report.  That in itself could indicate an attempted rape which went badly wrong when the gun was discharged.  Anyone any views on this?

I don't think there is anything more to add, other than what you have already stated. It's possible but we don't really know.

The only person who will ever be able to shed light is Qwabe.

Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 20, 2015, 10:01:24 PM
I don't think there is anything more to add, other than what you have already stated. It's possible but we don't really know.

The only person who will ever be able to shed light is Qwabe.

Just as we don't really know whether Dewani traded gold jewelry for cash in the illegal money exchange and then gave an unspecified sum of it to Tongo before the hit:  the only the only people able to shed light on that are Tongo and Dewani.

Personally, I think the shop assistant who made a statement saying he traded gold was the only witness with no reason to lie.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 20, 2015, 10:15:27 PM
One of the big unknowns (and this will be added to our site now I think about it) is what exactly caused Qwabe to change his story at 5:21pm on the 18th November. Its likely that SAPS played a role. Did a policeman come straight out and say to Qwabe and Mbolombo "you're f**ked but we can show you a way out of this. Help us nail the husband"? 

It is precisely these types of details that SAPS and the NPA do not want aired and that is what would happen if Mbolombo was prosecuted.

At best, SAPS were stupid, blind, negligent and allowed themselves to be played by criminals.

At worst, SAPS wilfully tried to frame an innocent man who also happened to have been a victim of a horrible crime.

I am sure that Passerby and many others think he deserved it because he's gay gay and oh so gay. Speaking of that topic, I wonder if Dewani's email address was one of those compromised in the Ashley Madison hack!

Christ:  just noticed you're now playing the Homophobic card as well?!

I've made it clear from the start - I actually said as much at the start of this thread - that his sexuality in itself is irrelevant, it's the fact that he was lying by omission by not declaring it that is the problem:  it is a motive for murder.

Likewise it is relevant that a man who claimed he was too upset by Anni's death to answer questions how he got out of the car was posting messages in gay bondage chat rooms 3 days after she died.  We can look at Anni's father to see grief in action:  I wonder if he was surfing gay bondage sites?

And the finally, we have the fact that a gay prostitute himself thought Dewani's gayness was so important he volunteered to be cross examined in court about it. Let me guess:  you think the gay hooker was homophobic do you?!

What a klutz.  Racism card, homophobia card, posting a photo of an erect cock in reply to a factual post by me:  I guess you're getting a bit desperate?

Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 20, 2015, 10:21:11 PM
Passer-by. I am trying not to engage with you but you have mentioned gold jewellery a few times now. The only suggestion that gold jewellery was traded has come from you. Never seen the claim made anywhere else.

The facts are these. Dewani said he changed Sterling into Rand. The shop owner testified that he changed $US for Rand. The shop owner may or may not have an incentive to lie considering she was doing a trade that she wasn't technically supposed to be doing and she didn't record it on her books.   

Does any of this matter? Not really. It doesn't prove much either way. Even if Dewani was a murderer, why would it serve him to lie about what currency he changed?

I'm sure its a very satisfying little piece of non-evidence for you to ponder with all your other unlikelihoods. Enjoy.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 20, 2015, 10:28:22 PM
Christ:  just noticed you're now playing the Homophobic card as well?!

I've made it clear from the start - I actually said as much at the start of this thread - that his sexuality in itself is irrelevant, it's the fact that he was lying by omission by not declaring it that is the problem:  it is a motive for murder.

Likewise it is relevant that a man who claimed he was too upset by Anni's death to answer questions how he got out of the car was posting messages in gay bondage chat rooms 3 days after she died.  We can look at Anni's father to see grief in action:  I wonder if he was surfing gay bondage sites?

And the finally, we have the fact that a gay prostitute himself thought Dewani's gayness was so important he volunteered to be cross examined in court about it. Let me guess:  you think the gay hooker was homophobic do you?!

What a klutz.  Racism card, homophobia card, posting a photo of an erect cock in reply to a factual post by me:  I guess you're getting a bit desperate?

That's a great post! 

Now that I don't take you seriously I can just pretend like I'm watching a monkey at the zoo and enjoy the show. 

You've mentioned gay bondage sites in at least 10 posts. Is there actually any evidence of this? I am fairly well versed in the facts of the case but I confess to not paying super close attention to which genres of gayness he was indulging in. I do remember that his internet history showed that he had accessed his gaydar profile in the days after the murder, and I know that the German Master prostitute was indeed a gay bondage specialist, but gay bondage web sites don't ring a bell....

Can you substantiate? 

EDIT: Have googled. You are correct. He visited a site called Recon which is a gay fetish dating site.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Carbon Copy on August 20, 2015, 10:38:08 PM
Strangely too, it was the kitchen gloves worn by Qwabe that had the gunshot residue on them yet he claimed that it was Mngeni who shot Anni?

The scenario that tallies best with the actual evidence as presented at court is this:-

Qwabe stops the car, walks round to the passenger side of the vehicle.  He's carrying a gun which means he has one hand free.  With his free hand he struggles with Anni, either to take her hand bag from her (certainly-the bag was stolen), or with intention to rape her (possible, but his intentions can't be proved).  It is likely that the bruises on Anni's ankle were a result of this struggle - Qwabe grabbing at her with the free hand - but ultimately this can't be proven conclusively. 

Discharge of the gun happened during the struggle according to Mngeni who was arrested first.  His description of the positioning of Qwabe, and the fact that Qwabe fired, was corroborated by forensic reports at Shrien Dewani trial.  Mngeni's initial version is the only version that has not been proven categorically to be a lie.  Although there is no doubt Mngeni was low-life s..m, he co-operated with police immediately unlike the others who first denied it, then admitted it was a simple robbery......then changed their stories to implicate Shrien Dewani, in that order.

So Qwabe without a shadow of a doubt hung Mngeni out to dry.  He blamed his "friend" in order to cut a deal with SAPS.  Probably thought, he's dying of brain cancer anyway, so why not.  SAPS would have had two different versions. Qwabe was willing to finger Shrien Dewani, where as Mngeni wasn't. SAPS wanting to pursue Dewani went along with Qwabe's story.  This monumental cock-up by SAPS caused the whole of this sorry episode.  If they'd verified Mngeni's story to be correct at the outset then Qwabe would be serving a life sentence and would have no leverage to cut a deal.  Shrien Dewani would never have been accused.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 20, 2015, 10:47:21 PM
Passer-by. I am trying not to engage with you but you have mentioned gold jewellery a few times now. The only suggestion that gold jewellery was traded has come from you.

The facts are these. Dewani said he changed Sterling into Rand. The shop owner testified that he changed $US for Rand. The shop owner may or may not have an incentive to lie considering she was doing a trade that she wasn't technically supposed to be doing and she didn't record it on her books.   

Does any of this really matter? Not really. It doesn't prove much either way. Even if Dewani was a murderer, why would it serve him to lie about what currency he changed?

I'm sure its a very satisfying little piece of non evidence for you to ponder with all your other unlikelihoods. Enjoy.

"Wasn't technically supposed to be doing" - is that how you describe breaking the law?  Just like Tongo wasn't technically supposed to be offering taxi rides and the other pair weren't technically supposed to be murdering Anni?

Dewani said he traded sterling, the shop owner claimed it was dollars - but the shop assistant, whose job was to carry it to the back of the shop to the guy with the currency said he paid with gold.

Let's just be clear:  you can't trade gold jewelry if you walk into The First National Bank next door.  Or any other bank.  The banks only change currency. and they might buy sell Krugarrands.  You recall I keep posting links about how close Dewani was to banks and how odd it was he should retry to change money in a shop full of 'pre-loved' metal artefacts.

So to me, knowing the area as I lived down the end of the street, it's a pretty bloody strange place to change currency at a dodgy looking *jewellers* that buys and sells gold (and rather predictably doesn't record the transaction - remember what I said about them all lying?).. Especially with a bank next door.

The owner must have been bricking it.  She lied to make it 'dollars' because she didn't know Dewani had said 'sterling' and in predictable fashion patronisingly blamed her lowly assistant for being 'confused' when saying it had been gold. because that would make it gold smuggling, which is a very serious offence..  However forgetting to record dollars is merely an accounting error.

The amount she said Deani changed was the amount Dewani said he changed - and of course there was no written record.

So potentially, like many other people, Dewani could have walked in and sold a gold watch and then given the proceeds to Tongo or the killers for half the fee for the hit.

45mins alone together less than 5 mins drive from the hotel, for a transaction that only took a few minutes.  Who knows who he met in the remaining time? 

But of course you would make light of this all taking place a few hours before the murder.  One thing we do know is that Dewani didn't use the time and money to pop round to the tip of the Waterfront 5 mins away to book any surprise trips on a helicopter.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 20, 2015, 10:52:00 PM
*autocorrected - the amount Dewani said he changed was not the amount the jeweller said he changed.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 20, 2015, 10:55:00 PM
The scenario that tallies best with the actual evidence as presented at court is this:-

Qwabe stops the car, walks round to the passenger side of the vehicle.  He's carrying a gun which means he has one hand free.  With his free hand he struggles with Anni, either to take her hand bag from her (certainly-the bag was stolen), or with intention to rape her (possible, but his intentions can't be proved).  It is likely that the bruises on Anni's ankle were a result of this struggle - Qwabe grabbing at her with the free hand - but ultimately this can't be proven conclusively. 

Discharge of the gun happened during the struggle according to Mngeni who was arrested first.  His description of the positioning of Qwabe, and the fact that Qwabe fired, was corroborated by forensic reports at Shrien Dewani trial.  Mngeni's initial version is the only version that has not been proven categorically to be a lie.  Although there is no doubt Mngeni was low-life s..m, he co-operated with police immediately unlike the others who first denied it, then admitted it was a simple robbery......then changed their stories to implicate Shrien Dewani, in that order.

So Qwabe without a shadow of a doubt hung Mngeni out to dry.  He blamed his "friend" in order to cut a deal with SAPS.  Probably thought, he's dying of brain cancer anyway, so why not.  SAPS would have had two different versions. Qwabe was willing to finger Shrien Dewani, where as Mngeni wasn't. SAPS wanting to pursue Dewani went along with Qwabe's story.  This monumental cock-up by SAPS caused the whole of this sorry episode.  If they'd verified Mngeni's story to be correct at the outset then Qwabe would be serving a life sentence and would have no leverage to cut a deal.  Shrien Dewani would never have been accused.

"Shrien Dewani would never have been accused" - yes, the whole of South Africa would still have blamed him, just as they have Oscar Pistorius.  Perhaps the police would actually have done a better job resulting in a stronger prosecution.

We are both speculating.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 20, 2015, 11:25:22 PM
That's a great post! 

Now that I don't take you seriously I can just pretend like I'm watching a monkey at the zoo and enjoy the show. 

You've mentioned gay bondage sites in at least 10 posts. Is there actually any evidence of this? I am fairly well versed in the facts of the case but I confess to not paying super close attention to which genres of gayness he was indulging in. I do remember that his internet history showed that he had accessed his gaydar profile in the days after the murder, and I know that the German Master prostitute was indeed a gay bondage specialist, but gay bondage web sites don't ring a bell....

Can you substantiate? 

EDIT: Have googled. You are correct. He visited a site called Recon which is a gay fetish dating site.

Is that as close as you get to an apology?  I doubt I be posted about it *at least 10 times* and this thread is now too insanely long for you to count - but I'm glad we have established I was correct.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 20, 2015, 11:45:33 PM
and who the hell says "gay gay and oh so gay"?!

I do hope your Google search hasn't shocked you too much.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 21, 2015, 12:31:05 AM
This is about the most I've ever given away about myself in the public domain, but to reinforce the point that I know how bloody odd it is to *change currency* in that jewellers shop I'm posting how far the walk to it was from the apartment I owned*. And I lived hopping between 3 countries so did a fair bit of currency changing. 

______________________
* the one I later rented out via a gay agent to a rotation of air crews - so presumably even had gay people in my bed, now I think about it  8)-)))



[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 22, 2015, 10:31:31 AM
Oh look:  Tumbleweed . . . !


I haven't seen that since I lived in Kimberley (tourist slogan, I kid you not:  "The Biggest Hole On Earth").
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 25, 2015, 03:43:05 PM
You were not asked to spit out a random unsolved crime statistic. You were asked whether you could substantiate your claim that "so many cases end like this" ("this" being a criminal getting a free pass despite having indemnity withdrawn and having confessed to his deep involvement in a crime that resulted in murder).

You cannot substantiate it.

We know this because we have researched this scenario and have been unable to find a single case that even comes close to being similar. The instance of Mbolombo is unique and proffers many questions, although the answers are in plain sight.

The NPA is scared to prosecute Mbolombo, for (as John and Carbon Copy pointed out earlier in the thread), it would open a can of worms that would explode in their faces. Once Mbolombo was facing 25+ years in prison, he would sing like a canary and blow the lid on the entire malicious prosecution of Shrien Dewani.

Mbolombo would likely continue to cover for the fifth conspirator due to personal safety fears, but he would hold no loyalty toward the SAPS or the NPA. He would expose the ineptitude of the SAPS and the NPA who failed to verify the hitman story before building high profile prosecutions upon it. He would expose their complicity in framing Shrien Dewani and pursuing a malicious prosecution by dangling attractive plea deals in the faces of the real criminals in exchange for their fabricated testimony about a murder for hire. He would expose the despicable way in which the Hindocha family were misled by the NPA into approving such generous plea deals for the armed kidnappers who took the life of their daughter. 

The fallout would be tremendous. High profile figures in South Africa would be exposed - Rodney de Kock, Bheki Cele, Justice Robert Henney to name but a few who would be dragged into the spotlight. 

That is why Mblolombo continues to enjoy his freedom and that is why we will continue to expose and publicise this miscarriage of justice.

Another ongoing case where the husband paid 2 hitmen to murder his wife by shooting her and dumping her body on the edge of a Township, and the Middle-man who arranged the hitmen has had charges dropped as part of a plea bargain. 

As part of the plea-bargain the middleman got the husband to make another payment after the murder to trap him.  Readers of this thread and followers of the Dewani story will note not only that this means Mbolombo's situation is not as unique as Dewanifacts claimed, but will also recall the Dewani too gave further money to Tongo in a carrier bag after his wife's murder, preferring to make a purchase in a local stationers in order to obtain the bag to attending an important Hindu ceremony with his wife's body, which he left Anni's father to deal with.

Luthando Siyoli has had charges against him dropped despite confessing to his role in the murder of Jayde Pananyiotou: 

http://ewn.co.za/2015/08/12/Charges-against-alleged-middleman-in-Panayiotou-case-dropped (http://ewn.co.za/2015/08/12/Charges-against-alleged-middleman-in-Panayiotou-case-dropped)

The husband's trial is ongoing.

Depressingly there seem to be a lot of murders in South Africa where a spouse has contracted killers.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 25, 2015, 10:25:17 PM
the Middle-man who arranged the hitmen has had charges dropped as part of a plea bargain. 

Still pumping out misinformation I see. Siyoli hasn't had his charges dropped. He's been offered Section 204 immunity from prosecution, contingent on him giving truthful testimony against Pana.

The similarities with Mbolombo begin and end with the fact that Siyoli was involved in a murder and has been offered Section 204 immunity.

His situation will only be comparable to Mbolombo's if:

1. Siyoli commits perjury in one or more criminal trials
2. Siyoli confesses to being involved in Jayde's murder
3. Siyoli tries to implicate his victim as a conspirator to the crime and is caught fabricating evidence to this end
4. Siyoli has his immunity from prosecution withdrawn
5. ....the NPA decides to reward items 1-4 by electing not to prosecute Siyoli
 
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 26, 2015, 01:53:57 AM
Thanks for clarifying that:  I knew I'd flush you out and that it wasn't just coincidence that you had vanished for 6 days after I posted about Dewani's illegal transaction at the dodgy jewellers.

Again and again you have just blanked my posts on that. I have repeatedly pointed out it was odd that Dewani didn't just use his UK bank card in the many ATMs and banks by his hotel:  you haven't uttered a peep on the subject.  I have since discovered that Dewani did draw out £800 on his credit card at a Waterfront cashpoint the evening before the murder: you knew this, didn't you?  It makes it almost certain that I am correct in my suggestion he sold gold jewelry at the dodgy jewellers in the unrecorded transaction which gave him ample extra funds to pay for some hitmen.

You have also blanked my extensive posts about the sheer improbability of Dewani accidentally getting an unlicensed Taxidriver at the airport:  I've posted maps of traffic flow through the airport, described in detail both as a passenger and as someone waiting to meet a passenger and explained the policing of the airport's was so good in 2010 that he would have needed to go out to the car park to find one.

I've since found out that Dewani's secretary booked Tongo from London: you probably knew that too, didn't you?  So I was right all along:  they didn't randomly meet up, it was pre-arranged.

And that's where the elusive Mr Mbolombo comes in, doesn't it?  You keep on referring to the South Africans not seeking justice for him, but also not seeking his prosecution is Dewani.  Because just how did Dewani's secretary get Tongo's number in order to book him?  That elusive 5th contact who, let's face it, neither Dewani nor Mbolombo nor any of the others wants to have named for their good.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 26, 2015, 02:06:18 AM
That's a great post! 

Now that I don't take you seriously I can just pretend like I'm watching a monkey at the zoo and enjoy the show. 

You've mentioned gay bondage sites in at least 10 posts. Is there actually any evidence of this? I am fairly well versed in the facts of the case but I confess to not paying super close attention to which genres of gayness he was indulging in. I do remember that his internet history showed that he had accessed his gaydar profile in the days after the murder, and I know that the German Master prostitute was indeed a gay bondage specialist, but gay bondage web sites don't ring a bell....

Can you substantiate? 

EDIT: Have googled. You are correct. He visited a site called Recon which is a gay fetish dating site.

As an adjunct to this - because his sexuality is relevant to motive - on the website 'Gaydar' when setting up his profile he could have chosen the description 'Bisexual man' from the drop down box, but in fact he chose 'Gay man'.

I daresay before you edited this post at the end, you were planning to say he was seeking emotional solace from gay friends.  But of course he wasn't:  he was just enjoying anonymous gay bondage porn 2 days after his wife's body was found.  Dewani is gay, not bisexual - as you previously said, only he can know what his preferences are, and he clearly demonstrated those were on his Gaydar profile. His family was unaware of his sexuality.

Dewani had both the means and the motive.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 26, 2015, 11:46:14 AM
I made it pretty clear why I stopped engaging you. Namely because I cannot take you seriously and because you steadfastly refused to explore anything other than the unlikehoods of Dewani's story. I conceded that there were aspects of Dewani's story that seemed unlikely and asked you to direct attention to unlikelihoods on the other side of the equation, which I have pasted again below for you have a think about.


Here's the alternative scenario and a few of the highly unlikely events contained within. If one believes the hitman story to be true, then one believes that each and every one of these highly unlikely occurences took place.

The judge didn't buy it. Do you?

Planning stage:

- a man decides to kill his wife of 2 weeks on honeymoon
- this man asks the first taxi driver he meets to organise this murder
- this taxi driver says he cannot help because he is not a criminal, but immediately says that he knows a man who can. Monde Mbolombo
- the taxi driver calls Mbolombo who also says that he is not a criminal and cannot help but conveniently knows a couple of people who can and he immediately calls them and arranges the murder
- these 4 men agree to commit this heinous crime for a 1/4 or 1/5 share of R15000 each, despite 2 of them being fully employed and their share of the proceeds being equivalent to a few days salary.
- the taxi driver is willing to risk his car which is his livelihood all for this paltry return

Operational stage:

- the taxi driver makes no effort to ensure that the money is in the glovebox as "agreed" before the first pass through Gugulethu
- the man does not even have the "agreed" R15000 on his person  so he is short changing the two unknown dangerous gunmen who will be carrying out his murder operation whilst he is in the taxi with them.

The aftermath stage:

- the man who is clearly aware of cctv cameras everywhere, borrows a policemans phone to invite the taxi driver back to a hotel to receive the balance of the murder payment
- 3 of the 4 conspirators at first admit that it was a robbery gone wrong and describe the man as an innocent victim, corroborating the story told by the man
- suddenly like dominoes, all 3 conspirators change their story to implicate the man - in exchange for generous lenient sentences.

The court process stage:

- Whilst telling this "truthful" story in court, the conspirators contradict each other on each and every material detail relating to the crime and are caught fabricating evidence to incriminate the man, despite their plea deals being contingent upon telling the truth.

Your recent posts are going even further down the road of speculation built upon even more speculation, with the incredible result being that you are "almost certain" that you are correct, despite having no proof whatsoever to substantiate your claims.

What is your source for the claim that Dewani's PA (Sian I believe her name was) pre-booked Tongo? This was one of the early rumours but was disproven and it is common cause fact that Dewani met Tongo for the first time at the airport when he landed. Do you understand what "common cause fact" means? It means that a fact is accepted as being true by all parties; prosecution, defence and the court itself. Do you not think that if Tongo had been pre-booked that it might have bolstered the State's case, and that they would have introduced such claims in court, had there been any evidence to that effect?

I won't waste any further time on this point (or any other points that have already been disproven).

Mr Dewani's travel money transactions were not at all strange or suspicious. Many travellers primarily rely on their card to withdraw cash from ATMs but most will also take a backup supply of their local cash or of any other currency that they happen to have, just in case their card gets swallowed by a machine or is blocked. Nothing worse than being stuck in a foreign country without being able to access money. There is nothing unusual about Dewani making an ATM withdrawal and there is nothing unusual about him having a parcel of £GBP (or $US if you believe the jewellery store owner) with him that he converted to local currency. You are trying to imply that this is somehow proof of wrongdoing when in fact it proves nothing at all. The fact that he went to the jeweller can be very simply explained by him asking Tongo to recommend a place to exchange some money at a good rate and Tongo taking him to the jewellery store.   
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 26, 2015, 11:51:16 AM
on the website 'Gaydar' when setting up his profile he could have chosen the description 'Bisexual man' from the drop down box, but in fact he chose 'Gay man'.


This was dealt with in the trial by Judge Traverso who, displaying a moment of humour, told the court that if she described herself as a beautiful 25 year old on a dating website, that would not necessarily make her a beautiful 25 year old in reality.

The same is true for Dewani. The box he ticked has no weight in proving what sexuality he identifies with.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Passer-by on August 26, 2015, 12:36:54 PM
I made it pretty clear why I stopped engaging you. Namely because I cannot take you seriously and because you steadfastly refused to explore anything other than the unlikehoods of Dewani's story. I conceded that there were aspects of Dewani's story that seemed unlikely and asked you to direct attention to unlikelihoods on the other side of the equation, which I have pasted again below for you have a think about.

Your recent posts are going even further down the road of speculation built upon even more speculation, with the incredible result being that you are "almost certain" that you are correct, despite having no proof whatsoever to substantiate your claims.

What is your source for the claim that Dewani's PA (Sian I believe her name was) pre-booked Tongo? This was one of the early rumours but was disproven and it is common cause fact that Dewani met Tongo for the first time at the airport when he landed. Do you understand what "common cause fact" means? It means that a fact is accepted as being true by all parties; prosecution, defence and the court itself. Do you not think that if Tongo had been pre-booked that it might have bolstered the State's case, and that they would have introduced such claims in court, had there been any evidence to that effect?

I won't waste any further time on this point (or any other points that have already been disproven).

Mr Dewani's travel money transactions were not at all strange or suspicious. Many travellers primarily rely on their card to withdraw cash from ATMs but most will also take a backup supply of their local cash or of any other currency that they happen to have, just in case their card gets swallowed by a machine or is blocked. Nothing worse than being stuck in a foreign country without being able to access money. There is nothing unusual about Dewani making an ATM withdrawal and there is nothing unusual about him having a parcel of £GBP (or $US if you believe the jewellery store owner) with him that he converted to local currency. You are trying to imply that this is somehow proof of wrongdoing when in fact it proves nothing at all. The fact that he went to the jeweller can be very simply explained by him asking Tongo to recommend a place to exchange some money at a good rate and Tongo taking him to the jewellery store.

You posted a photo of a fallus yet claim you can't take ME seriously?  Blimey, I think you take yourself too seriously.

I'm the one who has posted at length that the normal thing for Dewani to do was to draw out money from an ATM on his UK bank card - and lo and behold he did so the night before.

And I'm the one who has posted at length that the highly unusual thing to do is to conduct an illegal money transaction in a dodgy second hand jewellers that trades gold as well. - which he did a few hours before.  We don't know how much cash he got or what he did with it.

The fact is, it is only proven that Dewani had sex with men and called himself gay online and went to extraordinary lengths to avoid having sex with his pretty girlfriend.  What lies you or the judge are willing to stretch to if online dating is both speculation and irrelevant.  The judge may well need to present herself as young and pretty to get a date, whereas Dewani describing himself as bisexual made no material difference to the dating outcome for him, especially as in addition the site has a drop-down box for the kind of relationship sought:  'bisexual man' 'looking for gay men' will not have limited him getting dates like a real photograph and age of the judge would for her.  This is why British trial by jury is an eminently better system than speculation by lone judge who picks and chooses what evidence she will hear.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 26, 2015, 12:51:48 PM
What is your source for your claim that Dewani's PA pre-booked Tongo?
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on August 26, 2015, 03:29:08 PM
I'm the one who has posted at length that the normal thing for Dewani to do was to draw out money from an ATM on his UK bank card - and lo and behold he did so the night before.

So your point is that you wasted a lot of words posting at length to prove something that did not even require proving. Well done.

We don't know how much cash he got or what he did with it.

We also don't know whether Dewani stole anything from the shops at the VA Waterfront. Do you think it would be a mistake to catagorically rule that option out? If such an accusation were levelled at him, I think its fair to say that he would find it hard to "prove" that he didn't steal anything.....
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: John on September 03, 2015, 07:45:11 PM
The posts in the main are very interesting and indeed informative but the primary posters are damaging their arguments by bringing in petty sniping and point scoring.  All inappropriate comments are currently being totally removed to leave the thread a worthwhile read by anyone still interested in the case.

Petty comments will in future be removed on sight.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: John on September 03, 2015, 09:23:56 PM

They didn't turn up for the dinner reservation, instead they went to a Sushi Bar in Strand (an Afrikaner holiday resort certainly not the 'real Africa').  Then on the return journey Anni allegedly spontaneously decided she would like to see 'the real Africa' again.  Perhaps she thought nightlife in the Township kicked-off after 9.45pm and the previously deserted streets would be full of life, who knows?

I must admit I too wondered about this very same situation.  The hotel they were staying at made the advance dinner booking for them at 96 Winery Road restaurant in Somerset West, they drive all the way out there but instead go to some sushi bar for a snack on the pretence of rushing back to an unlit closed shantytown barbeque joint?  Sorry but that just doesn't add up.

(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/11/03/article-2056577-0EA8157700000578-78_634x420.jpg)

The reservations book of the 96 Winery Road restaurant. According to Shrien Dewani the couple decided during the journey that they weren't hungry enough for a full meal having eaten by the pool during the day.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: John on September 03, 2015, 10:10:52 PM
(I put 'marrying' and 'wife' in inverted commas because they weren't legally married, it was only a religious ceremony in India, they were due to legally marry in the UK later.)

That I never knew.  So the victim was never Anni Dewani at all but Anni Hindocha?
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: mercury on September 03, 2015, 11:18:35 PM
What is your source for your claim that Dewani's PA pre-booked Tongo?

This?
it seems Tongo was the source, surely phone records can prove it either way.....if they weren't (as I didn't follows the case)


According to Tongo, the killing was planned and carried out within 24 hours of the Dewanis arriving at Cape Town airport after four days on safari. Tongo, a limousine driver who offered himself for private hire, had been booked by Mr Dewani’s secretary to take the couple to the luxury Cape Race hotel.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8187489/Honeymoon-murder-the-drivers-claims.html

Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on September 04, 2015, 08:50:53 AM
mercury - that is an excellent example of the lies that Tongo told to incriminate Dewani and the many differing versions of events that Tongo gave. To fill you in, Tongo later changed his story on that point and admitted that he was not pre booked and that his first contact with Dewani was at the airport. This was accepted as a common cause fact and is not in dispute.

The article you linked was written less than a month after the murder and refers to the 42 minute plea hearing in which Tongo gave his fabricated story and the court accepted it without any attempts to ascertain its truthfulness. The "pre-booked" example above is but one of many contradictions and lies that were told by Tongo in that controversial hearing in exchange for a vastly reduced sentence (he will likely only serve 9 years behind bars).

That hearing was one of the key points in this saga and the court's willingness to accept Tongo's story without attempting to verify its truthfulness, was ultimately what placed enormous pressure on the South African legal system. Once that story was accepted by one court it placed pressure on other courts to accept it, which is why Qwabe was also given a reduced sentence, Mbolombo was given full immunity, and Mngeni was convicted on the basis of that false story and the lie filled testimony of Qwabe and Mbolmobo.

The fact that such a complicated story that contained so many unlikelihoods and sensational allegations was accepted and rubber stamped in a 42 minute hearing, three and a bit weeks after the murder took place, should set off alarm bells. Would you not agree?

If you are interested, this article on our site examines the trial of Mngeni and details this a bit further so you can understand what type of pressure was placed upon the legal system. 

https://dewanifacts.wordpress.com/2015/08/10/the-trial-of-xolile-mngeni-a-cesspit-of-controversy/

Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on September 04, 2015, 10:05:36 AM
, they drive all the way out there but instead go to some sushi bar for a snack on the pretence of rushing back to an unlit closed shantytown barbeque joint?  Sorry but that just doesn't add up.

That doesn't add up because that isn't what occurred. Somerset West is only 35 minutes drive from their hotel. Its not a long commute to another city. They booked the dinner but then changed their plans, deciding that they weren't hungry enough to eat that type of meal. There was never any pretence of "rushing back to an unlit closed shantytown barbeque joint". There was a discussion between Anni and Tongo about what they were to do next with the result being that Anni expressed a desire to see "the Real Africa". There was never any suggestion of them going back to see the bbq restaurant Mzolis. 
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Anna on September 04, 2015, 02:43:10 PM
That I never knew.  So the victim was never Anni Dewani at all but Anni Hindocha?

No marriage was registered in the UK.

Bride murdered on South African 'honeymoon' was not officially married
By Sue Reid for The Mail on Sunday
Updated: 23:23, 8 December 2010

58
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comments

Walking arm in arm by the warm Indian Ocean that Saturday evening, the ­‘honeymoon’ couple might have felt they made the perfect choice when they came to South Africa for this most romantic of holidays.
Yet, just a few hours later, Anni Hindocha would be dead, executed with a bullet to the back of her head, while the man she loved was left to make sense of a murder that has become the subject of intense speculation across the globe.
The controversy has involved the couple’s relatives and friends from four countries — Britain, South Africa, Sweden and India — as well as, bizarrely, the PR man Max Clifford.

Tragic couple: Shrien Dewani and Anni before their 'wedding' in Mumbai which has not been registered anywhere
At the centre of this tragedy is Anni, a beautiful 28-year-old whose body has now been flown to Britain and cremated after a family funeral and Hindu prayer service.
Her father, Vinod Hindocha, has described how he fought back his emotions when he saw his daughter lying in her coffin: ‘My girl was so pretty. She looked calmly asleep and in peace. There was not a scratch visible on her face. I was so relieved about that.’

As for the man described as Anni’s husband, 30-year-old Shrien Dewani, he is reported to be under sedation at his West Country home.
A wealthy businessman from Bristol who runs a series of care homes, he is receiving counselling after bringing Anni’s body back here.
He is also in constant touch with Mr Clifford, whom he has hired for advice, but this week was refusing all media requests for an interview.
Inexplicably, the handsome Shrien, an accountant by training, has not been called back to South Africa by police to attend an identity parade of three local men who have now been charged with kidnap, robbery and murder.
Even as Mr Dewani keeps his counsel, though, the list of nagging inconsistencies surrounding Anni’s death grows.
Not least among them is the fact that, as the Mail can reveal today, the lavish £200,000 ‘marriage’ they went through in Mumbai in November in front of 300 guests was never officially registered there, or indeed anywhere else in the world.

In other words, the honeymooners were never honeymooners at all.


Lavish: Up to 300 guests attended the Mumbai ceremony before the fateful honeymoon trip to South Africa
Not only that, an intriguing letter, sent this week to the Mail from people claiming to be Anni’s friends, asks troubling questions about Anni’s late-night abduction in a dangerous black township of Gugulethu, several miles from their Cape Town hotel.
She was found lying in an abandoned, blood-stained taxi on November 14 after an all-night police search.
Shrien says that nine hours earlier he was thrown out of the ‘back window’ of the same taxi at gunpoint and left, bewildered and alone, to sound the alarm.
So, what really happened to Anni, the girl who looked so happy in her ‘wedding’ photos a few weeks earlier?
Having studied as an engineer in Sweden, where she grew up with her parents and two siblings — her father sells heavy duty electrical equipment — she met Shrien Dewani in September 2009 after travelling to the UK to visit relatives.
It has emerged that, at the time, Shrien had just abruptly cancelled plans for a wedding to 26-year-old Rani Kansagra, the daughter of the London-based multi-millionaire founder of Indian budget airline SpiceJet.
Shrien says he fell for Anni at first sight, and within weeks he had proposed to her.
In February of this year, Anni left her job as a project manager at the Swedish mobile phone giant Ericsson in Stockholm, and was preparing to move permanently to Bristol to help organise their grand ceremony in Mumbai, where both had relatives.

Suspect: One of the men accused of the murder is taken to court by South African police officers
One friend of Shrien whom the couple invited to India says: ‘It was a lavish event at an expensive hotel which has lawns running down to a lake. Guests flew in from London with Shrien and Anni. Everyone believed they were a couple made for each other.’

On the flight back home to London, it appears the couple were not on speaking terms.
A woman claiming to be an air hostess on the flight has said that Anni looked unhappy and was in tears.
‘One of my colleagues brought her some tissues,’ she recalls. ‘The couple did not speak one word to each other during the nine-hour flight. We all noticed and found this strange.’

The disturbing account was posted on a website and written under the hostess’s first name.
True or not, a few days later, Anni and Shrien flew off again — this time on honeymoon to South Africa.
They arrived in Johannesburg and travelled straight to the Kruger National Park for a game safari, before going on to the five-star Cape Grace hotel in Cape Town.
It had been booked by Shrien’s secretary in London, who, according to him, had also arranged for a taxi driver in a silver VW Sharan people-carrier from a local tour company, Platinum Escapes, to pick them up from the airport on Friday, November 12.
The driver’s name was Zola Tongo, a local man from a township near the city.
Thirty-one-year-old Tongo must have noticed that Anni and Shrien, who has been described as ‘showy about money’, were well off.

Happy couple: The pair appeared very much in love on their wedding day
They were wearing jewellery, their luggage was expensive and Anni looked as though she had just stepped out of a Bond Street boutique.
At the end of the journey from the airport to the hotel via the N2 motorway, which threads its way through the notoriously dangerous black townships ­dotted around Cape Town, Shrien took Tongo’s mobile phone number and promised to call him if he and Anni wanted to take a trip out.
He and Anni spent the Saturday by the hotel pool. They phoned their relatives in England and Sweden, who say they sounded ecstatically happy.
Shrien made the call to Tongo and asked him to collect them at 7.30 in the evening to take them on a sightseeing tour of Cape Town. They both changed into smart outfits.
Anni was wearing a dress and one of the golden necklaces she was given during the Mumbai ­ceremony. Shrien was sporting a designer suit and open-necked shirt.
It was already dark when the taxi driver arrived, again in the Volkswagen people-carrier.
His company has said he was acting as ‘a freelance’ that night and Shrien had arranged to pay him in cash.
The couple were driven around the city, past the new football stadium where the World Cup was staged this summer.
What happened next is unclear. Shrien says that he asked Tongo to drive out towards Somerset West, a ­seaside town on the eastern side of the Cape overlooking the Indian Ocean. It was already 8.30pm.
Shrien had booked a table at 96 Winery Road, one of the Cape region’s top restaurants; but when the couple arrived, he says they thought it was too formal for them.

In custody: One of the three suspects is transported in a police car
So they decided to head for the more informal Surfside Restaurant, which overlooks the sea at Strand, a little way along the coast from Somerset West. The couple asked Tongo to wait in the people-carrier while they took a walk by the sea.
By 9.30, they were eating sushi and curry, served by Surfside waiters Dayne Keen and Tamar Van Der Merwe. Shrien had a vodka, and Anni a glass of wine.
Dayne says the two of them appeared to be very much in love.
Tamar adds: ‘The woman seemed very sweet. They just chatted to each other. I did not see them kiss or hold hands.’

Soon after ten, Shrien and Anni were ready to go. They walked outside to the waiting Tongo in the people-carrier and set off back to the Cape Grace.
Shrien has given the Mail his version of what happened next. He did so in the tea room of his hotel the day after Anni was found murdered.
It is likely, of course, that he was in shock, and yet what he told us differs substantially from a second account he gave a week later.
Displaying no marks on his face, he told the Mail’s reporter, Dan Newling: ‘We had been planning on just ­coming back to the city centre and having a drink in the Waterfront area.
'But Anni grew up in Sweden and, to be honest, she felt as if the area around this hotel was just like at home: so clean and safe, a bit sterile.
‘She had never been to Africa before, so she suggested we should have a look at the “real Africa”.
‘The stop was on the way back here, and was intended so that we could experience a township.’

Questions: South African Police Commissioner Bheki Cele addresses a press conference on the killing
However, when Shrien was asked by journalists to tell his story again seven days later — after he had taken what some would see as the extraordinary step of retaining Max Clifford — the details had changed.
This time, he insisted that it was Tongo — who continually made calls to what Shrien described as the ­driver’s ‘friends’ on his own mobile phone during the journey — who suggested a detour to the Gugulethu township, just off the N2.
Within a few minutes of arriving in the township, at 10.20, the car was attacked. Two gunmen banged on the window as the taxi stopped at traffic lights. The hijackers pushed the driver Tongo along the front seat and climbed into the car.
One of the gunmen took the wheel, driving for ten minutes before stopping and pushing Tongo out.
The journey then continued, according to Shrien’s description, with the gunmen making threats and swearing in broken English at the couple in the back.
After another ten minutes, Shrien was also pushed out of the car, even though he gave the two gunmen his mobile phone, his wallet and a gold necklace worn by Anni.
Shrien described it this way to the Mail: ‘It was two African male gunmen. They were banging their guns on the window.
'One used his gun to smash the driver’s window. I don’t want to go into detail about the attack, because I will probably start crying, and it might give other ­criminals ideas.
‘They coldly put a gun in my ear and pulled back the safety catch — it really was the stuff of movies.
‘I was dumped through the back of the passenger window as the car was moving. I landed on a patch of sand, landing first on my shoulder and then my forehead. It was in the ­middle of the township.


Model looks: Tragic Anni had moved from Sweden to London
‘I knocked on the doors of some shacks, but no one opened up. Then I noticed a man who was putting away his car and he agreed to call the police.’

By then, Anni had been driven off into the darkness, never to be seen alive again.
A young township girl, who declined to be named, told South African media that she saw Anni’s body as police removed it from the abandoned taxi after it was found about two miles away several hours later.
The student reportedly said: ‘When the policeman opened the door, I saw blood. Her pants were pulled below her knees and her dress pushed up to her stomach.
She was exposed, and her face was turned towards the door. The policemen quickly closed the door and pushed us away.’

Despite this, at a press conference held on November 18, South Africa’s Chief of Police Bheki Cele insisted: ‘There is no evidence at the moment that there was a sexual element to the assault.’

So, what became of Shrien as Anni was being killed in the most brutal fashion? He was discovered at around 11pm by a Cape Town accountant named Simbonile Matokazi, who lived in Guguletha.
Simbonile says that when he came across him, the Briton did not have any visible injuries, nor did he look ‘roughed up’.
‘I just saw a decent guy wearing a suit and a nice shirt coming towards me from behind some shacks,’ he says. There were no reports of any blood on his clothing to implicate him in the murder.
Inevitably, local people are asking two questions. Could a grown man fit through the rear passenger ­window, as Shrien says he did?

'Inevitably, local people are asking two questions. Could a grown man fit through the rear passenger ­window, as Shrien says he did?'

And having been through such an ordeal, how come his clothes were not torn, or his shoes dirtied?
These are not the only mysteries surrounding Anni’s death. A letter received by the Mail, and signed by ‘the devoted friends and acquaintances of our beloved Anni’, says she knew Nigeria and Kenya well, contradicting Shrien’s suggestion that she had never been to Africa before.
‘It is beyond comprehension that Anni ­suggested seeing “the real Africa” in such a ­dangerous area at such a late hour,’ says the ­letter. ‘She was an intelligent and smart girl.’
The letter, sent by post, was unsigned, but ­written in perfect English and typed out.
It adds: ‘We believe the South African investigation may be a whitewash, and Anni’s demise is highly mysterious.’

The allegations — and of course they are no more than that — are made all the more fascinating by the fact that, as the Mail discovered this week, the Mumbai ‘wedding’ ceremony, apparently so carefully planned by Shrien, is not ­recognised as a formal marriage in law.
We have confirmed with the British High ­Commission in Delhi that the union was never registered in India, and therefore would not have been recognised in either Britain or Sweden.
From his home in Sweden, Anni’s father has also confirmed: ‘My wife and I are Anni’s closest relatives — not Shrien. She was not formally married to Shrien.
'According to the authorities (in Britain and Sweden), Anni was still Miss Hindocha when she died.
‘The marriage registration was not going to happen until March next year, when Anni had her birthday in Britain and they switched rings, which is our custom.’

So, what will happen next in this most intriguing and tragic of cases?
South Africa’s Mail and Guardian newspaper recently reported that Shrien Dewani ‘will be arrested and charged’ in connection with Anni’s murder if he returns to the country, a suggestion rejected by Max Clifford.
If correct, this would be an extraordinary course for the investigation to take.
In the meantime, Anni’s driver on the night she died must return to court to face charges over her death, along with two men — who may have been known to him — from the Khayeltisha township where Anni’s body was found in the taxi.
Those two are claiming they were tortured by South African police into making a confession that they killed Anni. One says detectives ‘assaulted him’, then suffocated him using a plastic bag.
Meanwhile, back in Bristol, Shrien Dewani — who says there was no insurance policy
covering Anni’s life, so he does not stand to make a penny from her death — remains silent, grieving for the woman he loved, and awaiting instruction from Max Clifford.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1335537/Bride-Anni-Dewani-murdered-South-African-honeymoon-officially-married.html



Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: John on September 04, 2015, 08:51:45 PM
Many thanks for posting that article Anna, it is very interesting even now some five years on.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: John on September 04, 2015, 08:59:24 PM
That doesn't add up because that isn't what occurred. Somerset West is only 35 minutes drive from their hotel. Its not a long commute to another city. They booked the dinner but then changed their plans, deciding that they weren't hungry enough to eat that type of meal. There was never any pretence of "rushing back to an unlit closed shantytown barbeque joint". There was a discussion between Anni and Tongo about what they were to do next with the result being that Anni expressed a desire to see "the Real Africa". There was never any suggestion of them going back to see the bbq restaurant Mzolis.

You have no more reason to believe that version of events than I have to believe any other.  In any event, if they drove off the dual carriageway to get to the 'real South Africa', that would have extended their journey significantly, always assuming for a moment the detour actually occurred. Personally I don't believe a word either Tongo or Dewani said about those events as they are both liars.

We will never know for sure what discussion there was between Anni, Tongo or Shrien Dewani as Anni is dead and the other two are a dead loss as far as anything credible or reliable is concerned.

Madam Judge Jeanette Traverso made a huge error in allowing Dewani to avoid testifying imo!
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on September 04, 2015, 09:05:18 PM
Well now you are going down the same logic route as other more hysterical thread participants if you are going to deny facts that are common cause, undisputed by all parties to the case.

I'm sure I have put this question to you previously but it becomes relevant again now because of what you have said. If Tongo's plea deal depended upon him simply telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but - why did he lie? Remeber, his lies weren't covering up his own involvement as is the case with most people who lie in court. Tongo's lies were all designed to do one thing; incriminate one of his victims and make that victim look like a wife murderer.   
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: John on September 04, 2015, 09:10:51 PM
Well now you are going down the same logic route as other more hysterical thread participants if you are going to deny facts that are common cause, undisputed by all parties to the case.

I'm sure I have put this question to you previously but it becomes relevant again now because of what you have said. If Tongo's plea deal depended upon him simply telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but - why did he lie? Remeber, his lies weren't covering up his own involvement as is the case with most people who lie in court. Tongo's lies were all designed to do one thing; incriminate one of his victims and make that victim look like a wife murderer.

Events don't become true simply because a Court decides they are.  We will make up our own mind here on the facts as we are not shackled by the same constraints.  Bottom line is I don't know why Tongo or any other of the participants in this dreadful crime lied other than to save their own miserable skins.

Do you know where Tongo's lies start or where they end?  Likewise Dewani and the others.  Short answer is, you don't!

Only the participants know what happened and they aren't telling.

 
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on September 04, 2015, 10:16:57 PM
As I said above, it was really obvious what Tongo's lies were  trying to achieve; almost all of them were to implicate Dewani. The same with Qwabe and the same with Mbolombo. Traverso explicitly commented in the judgement that Mbolombo's lies in both trials had nothing to do with covering his own involvement and everything to do with incriminating Dewani. She made similar comments about both Qwabe and Tongo.

Dewani's lies clearly started and ended with his embarrassing double life. Lying to get hotel discounts does not even warrant a mention in this discussion.

You seem to be implying that the detour may never even have occurred despite the prosecution and defence (and every other source) agreeing that it did. You are forgetting one very important factor.  Before the birth of the scurrilous  "murder for hire" story, 3 of the 4 conspirators confessed to their involvement in a robbery gone wrong and they told a story that largely corroborated Shrien Dewani's version of events.

An article on our page details this. https://dewanifacts.wordpress.com/2015/08/03/the-truth-is-in-the-confessions-2/

You may decide that you do not wish to believe the word of criminals however you need to ask yourself what the odds are of 3 criminals all independently giving a version of events that roughly tallied up with each other (and with Dewani) if it was not the truth?

Remember, Dewani had not met Qwabe or Mngeni before the hijacking and he never saw them again afterwards, so it is impossible that they could have colluded. Yet at that early stage their stories tallied up with each other and with Dewani's.

It was only after they hatched their "murder for hire" story that the contradictions and lies started punctuating their evidence. It was simply too damn hard for them to keep such a complicated story straight once they went down the path of lying to incriminate their victim. 
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: mercury on September 04, 2015, 11:08:42 PM
mercury - that is an excellent example of the lies that Tongo told to incriminate Dewani and the many differing versions of events that Tongo gave. To fill you in, Tongo later changed his story on that point and admitted that he was not pre booked and that his first contact with Dewani was at the airport. This was accepted as a common cause fact and is not in dispute.

The article you linked was written less than a month after the murder and refers to the 42 minute plea hearing in which Tongo gave his fabricated story and the court accepted it without any attempts to ascertain its truthfulness. The "pre-booked" example above is but one of many contradictions and lies that were told by Tongo in that controversial hearing in exchange for a vastly reduced sentence (he will likely only serve 9 years behind bars).

That hearing was one of the key points in this saga and the court's willingness to accept Tongo's story without attempting to verify its truthfulness, was ultimately what placed enormous pressure on the South African legal system. Once that story was accepted by one court it placed pressure on other courts to accept it, which is why Qwabe was also given a reduced sentence, Mbolombo was given full immunity, and Mngeni was convicted on the basis of that false story and the lie filled testimony of Qwabe and Mbolmobo.

The fact that such a complicated story that contained so many unlikelihoods and sensational allegations was accepted and rubber stamped in a 42 minute hearing, three and a bit weeks after the murder took place, should set off alarm bells. Would you not agree?

If you are interested, this article on our site examines the trial of Mngeni and details this a bit further so you can understand what type of pressure was placed upon the legal system. 

https://dewanifacts.wordpress.com/2015/08/10/the-trial-of-xolile-mngeni-a-cesspit-of-controversy/

I can't agree or disagree because I don't know how SA justice system/courts work.I can say though that watching the Pistorius trial, it seemed all very proper to a layman like me at least.
Whilst agreeing that anything written in a newspaper,can never be taken as truth in itself (and tabloid and broadsheets have very little difference sometimes these days) a  plea hearing anyway is not any kind of final event, so probably not as important at the time to investigate all the minutiae...isn't that the polices job anyway? Well, I must not waste anymore time here, especially seeing it was implied I was hysterical on another thread? Good luck with salving the doubts many people have over DWs atrocious behaviour on so many accounts. The only people I feel sorry for are Annis family (and DWs family as they too are innocent) If DW is innocent he should get off his sorry lazy arse and speak!
The world knows he s bisexual and no one cares anyway so that can't be an excuse anymore.
 &8#£%
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on September 05, 2015, 08:08:08 AM
a  plea hearing anyway is not any kind of final event, so probably not as important at the time to investigate all the minutiae...isn't that the polices job anyway?

It was absolutely final. That was the one and only time that Tongo appeared in court. His fabricated story was heard, accepted and he was sentenced all within that 42 minute hearing!

The SAPS and the NPA were desperate to pin this crime on Dewani. They cared little for the truth and the facts. They merely wanted to get the unverified "murder for hire" story rubber stamped so that they could pursue Dewani. Corrupt judge president Hlophe (Google it) seemed willing to oblige although even he expressed a few doubts yet signed it all off anyway in that 42 minute hearing.

Btw the "hysterical" reference was not about you Mercury. I think it is pretty clear who it described...... 8(0(*
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: mercury on September 06, 2015, 12:15:14 AM
My apologies, I thought a plea hearing was atthe front of legal proceedings
As for the hysterical thing, you said posters in plural and there were only two challenging things in the various threads, me and passerby
I hope he's innocent but I don't believe he is for various reasons, a strong reason being he won't open his mouth and speak as a berieved ex husband wanting justice, but DOING NOTHING about it,you obviously do so good luck in your mission, if there was anyone with loads to hide he seems the epitomy of it
You will truly fail IMO ur well done for trying bye

The MAN needs to speak out and he never has done...classic guilt indicator
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on September 06, 2015, 09:04:32 AM
That's the key problem with yours and other peoples' analysis. Someone refusing to talk could be an indicator of guilt but it could also be an indicator of numerous other things; fear of public speaking, shyness, embarrassment, shame, grief, self doubt, depression, mental illness......

Many people have private personalities and would not feel comfortable going on television or speaking to a reporter to publicly explain a series of actions, particularly when they have not done anything illegal and therefore are not compelled to explain themselves in a public forum.

Dewani's adultery and deceit with regard to his sexuality was a private matter between him and his wife. Even in her demise, it is arguable that he does not owe her family an explanation for his sexual behaviour as distasteful and as duplicitous as it may have been. He did not break any laws.

His bisexuality may well be common knowledge now but that does not mean that he is proud of it or his past adulterous behaviour. Indeed it is likely to still be a very sore point with him and his family and is likely something that they do not discuss. One only needs to read the court reports from the day when the gay prostitute information was being discussed in court, to know that the Dewani family sat ashen faced as the sordid details were discussed.   

I hope he speaks but I can completely understand him being reticent about being made to explain himself when he knows he has done nothing illegal.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: mercury on September 07, 2015, 01:00:40 AM
I thnk you miss the point...DW has made NO public statements regarding  the death of his beloved...and how bereaved he was for years...not a sausage...if that doesn't strike you as odd, well...whatever
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: sika on September 07, 2015, 06:28:10 AM
I thnk you miss the point...DW has made NO public statements regarding  the death of his beloved...and how bereaved he was for years...not a sausage...if that doesn't strike you as odd, well...whatever
Perhaps he mistrusts the media that much, that he can't even bring himself to make a brief statement.  From his point of view, he did speak to the BBC, early on, and made no difference to public opinion.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on September 07, 2015, 10:08:23 AM
I thnk you miss the point...DW has made NO public statements regarding  the death of his beloved...and how bereaved he was for years...not a sausage...if that doesn't strike you as odd, well...whatever

sika makes an excellent point. Dewani did make public statements. He spoke to news outlets within days of the crime occurring. Look how that worked out for him. Those same statements have been used to try to incriminate him by the very media he obliged, whilst that same media ignored all the evidence to suggest that he was actually innocent. The BBC's Panorama program in 2012/2013 was one of the only outlets to test the strength of the case against Dewani. 

The other thing you seem to forget is that with legal action pending, Dewani would have been instructed by his lawyers to say "not a sausage". Considering that we still have an inquest pending to this very day, and the Hindocha family have repeatedly stated that they are considering all legal options, does it not make sense that Dewani has been instructed by his lawyers to continue to say "not a sausage" until those matters are settled?

I am not seeking to make excuses for Dewani's behaviour, some of which has undoubtedly seemed strange. What I am saying is that there are many possible explanations for that behaviour, other than the now discredited "murder for hire" theory of the case.

Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: mercury on September 07, 2015, 09:30:33 PM
Perhaps he mistrusts the media that much, that he can't even bring himself to make a brief statement.  From his point of view, he did speak to the BBC, early on, and made no difference to public opinion.
Have you got footage? Sika
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: mercury on September 07, 2015, 09:43:57 PM
sika makes an excellent point. Dewani did make public statements. He spoke to news outlets within days of the crime occurring. Look how that worked out for him. Those same statements have been used to try to incriminate him by the very media he obliged, whilst that same media ignored all the evidence to suggest that he was actually innocent. The BBC's Panorama program in 2012/2013 was one of the only outlets to test the strength of the case against Dewani. 

The other thing you seem to forget is that with legal action pending, Dewani would have been instructed by his lawyers to say "not a sausage". Considering that we still have an inquest pending to this very day, and the Hindocha family have repeatedly stated that they are considering all legal options, does it not make sense that Dewani has been instructed by his lawyers to continue to say "not a sausage" until those matters are settled?

I am not seeking to make excuses for Dewani's behaviour, some of which has undoubtedly seemed strange. What I am saying is that there are many possible explanations for that behaviour, other than the now discredited "murder for hire" theory of the case.

he is exonerated now..so by your logic he can never say a sausage till he dies in case the media jump on him?
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on September 07, 2015, 10:51:12 PM
That is a rather odd characterisation of my logic. As we stand today, it is less than 9 months since his exoneration and the threat of legal action by the Hindocha family has been flagged (by the Hindocha family) on numerous occasions since the judgement was handed down. Ironically their own words may be the cause of the delay in getting the answers they want.

I had hoped we would hear him speak soon after the exoneration but clearly he didn't wish to, or was advised not to.

I daresay once no more legal action looms, we will get our answers. I am more curious than most to hear him explain his statement omissions. They are puzzling and as a follower of the case I would also like to understand what happened and why he made some of the decisions that he made. The fact that I know it did not involve a murder for hire plot, does not make me any less interested in hearing the explanations.

Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: sika on September 08, 2015, 07:00:31 AM
Have you got footage? Sika
No, sorry Mercury, I don't.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on September 08, 2015, 07:21:24 PM
I'm unsure of why you require footage, Mercury? You don't believe that he spoke to the media?

Anyway, there are some audio excerpts of his interviews contained within the Panorama documentary of 2013.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZSc--n2PgQ

Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: mercury on September 08, 2015, 10:20:50 PM
That is a rather odd characterisation of my logic. As we stand today, it is less than 9 months since his exoneration and the threat of legal action by the Hindocha family has been flagged (by the Hindocha family) on numerous occasions since the judgement was handed down. Ironically their own words may be the cause of the delay in getting the answers they want.

I had hoped we would hear him speak soon after the exoneration but clearly he didn't wish to, or was advised not to.

I daresay once no more legal action looms, we will get our answers. I am more curious than most to hear him explain his statement omissions. They are puzzling and as a follower of the case I would also like to understand what happened and why he made some of the decisions that he made. The fact that I know it did not involve a murder for hire plot, does not make me any less interested in hearing the explanations.

Well DWF, you can't possibly know unless you have inside information. You can surmise to the best of your ability. Just  leave it now, it's just a case that most victims of crimes (and perpetrators of them a lot of the time) do tell after a while their story.I suppose it might happen in the future.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: mercury on September 08, 2015, 10:23:10 PM
I'm unsure of why you require footage, Mercury? You don't believe that he spoke to the media?

Anyway, there are some audio excerpts of his interviews contained within the Panorama documentary of 2013.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZSc--n2PgQ

I wasn't questioning if he had spoken to the media, I just wanted to see the footage to see what he said, body language etc, not that I am an expert, just curious. Thanks Sika, no problem.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on September 09, 2015, 11:30:20 AM
Well DWF, you can't possibly know unless you have inside information. You can surmise to the best of your ability.

I can surmise based on the mountain of evidence and testimony presented in court. I can also take into account the court's view of that evidence bearing in mind that the judge who presided is experienced, well reputed and in a very good position to assess such matters. Moreso than amateurs on an internet forum, I would suggest.

Contrary to what you seem to believe, it is quite possible to rule out certain theories on the case without hearing directly from Shrien Dewani. You do realise that inquests and hearings are often held to determine what happened to people who die and don't have any witnesses whatsoever? Yet they still manage to piece together evidence and often form unassailable evidence based conclusions as to what did or did not occur.

For example, a post mortem examination can determine whether someone was sexually assaulted or not before their death. Surely you would not try to argue that the coroner cannot make such a finding simply because the partner of a murder victim had not been questioned?
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: mercury on September 09, 2015, 11:42:36 PM
That's what I said, you can surmise, but not really know, that's all. As for inquests and post mortems I don't recall making any big song  and dance about them specifically...my main query was about SD staying schtum for years anywhere and everywhere..IMO if he loved his wife he wouldn't scurry off like a little  rat at every opportunity...then again maybe he is just a little wimp, who knows....he might be scared of South African kidnappers out to get him in the middle of the night or something...nice theory? Doesn't explain his blanking of his beloveds family though!! Disgraceful.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: mercury on September 10, 2015, 12:22:38 AM
A couple of videos to put names faces and places


first two are a fairly early  BBC news report, the third a sky one



Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: dewanifacts on September 10, 2015, 03:16:52 PM
That's what I said, you can surmise, but not really know, that's all. As for inquests and post mortems I don't recall making any big song  and dance about them specifically...my main query was about SD staying schtum for years anywhere and everywhere..IMO if he loved his wife he wouldn't scurry off like a little  rat at every opportunity...then again maybe he is just a little wimp, who knows....he might be scared of South African kidnappers out to get him in the middle of the night or something...nice theory? Doesn't explain his blanking of his beloveds family though!! Disgraceful.

When the evidence proves something conclusively, then its no longer a matter of surmising but rather a matter of knowing.  The evidence proved beyond any doubt that the "murder for hire" story was made up by the three criminals. 

I am not sure why you, like the Hindochas, keep coming back to this idea that Shrien Dewani owes a public explanation for his sexuality or his other actions. He owes nothing to anybody. He was a victim of the crime just like Anni was.  He is "blanking" his beloveds family for the rather simple reason that they continue to blame him for the murder, despite all evidence to the contrary.

His adultery and duplicity was a matter between him and Anni. He had every right to stay schtum in the wake of the malicious prosecution, and as previously pointed out, it was probably not even his choice but rather that of his lawyer or maybe even his brother (who is also a lawyer).  To describe him obeying legal advice as "scurrying off like a rat" shows your bias. Your bias in itself is interesting, considering on your own admission you know little about the case. You have declined to offer a view when asked various questions in this thread, citing your lack of knowledge as a reason to rather express no view at all. Yet your lack of knowledge does not stop you expressing a vehement view that Shrien Dewani must have been involved in the crime.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: Anna on September 10, 2015, 03:23:34 PM
When the evidence proves something conclusively, then its no longer a matter of surmising but rather a matter of knowing.  The evidence proved beyond any doubt that the "murder for hire" story was made up by the three criminals. 

I am not sure why you, like the Hindochas, keep coming back to this idea that Shrien Dewani owes a public explanation for his sexuality or his other actions. He owes nothing to anybody. He was a victim of the crime just like Anni was.  He is "blanking" his beloveds family for the rather simple reason that they continue to blame him for the murder, despite all evidence to the contrary.

His adultery and duplicity was a matter between him and Anni. He had every right to stay schtum in the wake of the malicious prosecution, and as previously pointed out, it was probably not even his choice but rather that of his lawyer or maybe even his brother (who is also a lawyer).  To describe him obeying legal advice as "scurrying off like a rat" shows your bias. Your bias in itself is interesting, considering on your own admission you know little about the case. You have declined to offer a view when asked various questions in this thread, citing your lack of knowledge as a reason to rather express no view at all. Yet your lack of knowledge does not stop you expressing a vehement view that Shrien Dewani must have been involved in the crime.


We are all entitled to our opinions on this forum(within forum rules of course)
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: mercury on September 11, 2015, 09:04:45 PM
When the evidence proves something conclusively, then its no longer a matter of surmising but rather a matter of knowing.  The evidence proved beyond any doubt that the "murder for hire" story was made up by the three criminals. 

I am not sure why you, like the Hindochas, keep coming back to this idea that Shrien Dewani owes a public explanation for his sexuality or his other actions. He owes nothing to anybody. He was a victim of the crime just like Anni was.  He is "blanking" his beloveds family for the rather simple reason that they continue to blame him for the murder, despite all evidence to the contrary.

His adultery and duplicity was a matter between him and Anni. He had every right to stay schtum in the wake of the malicious prosecution, and as previously pointed out, it was probably not even his choice but rather that of his lawyer or maybe even his brother (who is also a lawyer).  To describe him obeying legal advice as "scurrying off like a rat" shows your bias. Your bias in itself is interesting, considering on your own admission you know little about the case. You have declined to offer a view when asked various questions in this thread, citing your lack of knowledge as a reason to rather express no view at all. Yet your lack of knowledge does not stop you expressing a vehement view that Shrien Dewani must have been involved in the crime.

You must be mixing me up with someone else. I have never said DW owes an explanation for his sexuality or that it was anyone's business, so you can withdraw that accusation,  if you didn't, then don't twist my comments, and for your information I do not hold a) a particularly vehement view and b) that he MUST have been involved, that is YOUR wrong interpretation of any criticisms or queries I've made.
Title: Re: Website that analyses the Anni Dewani murder in detail
Post by: lane99 on January 16, 2017, 11:03:38 PM
That website was produced by Dewani's latest PR agent, after his original PR agent was sent to prison for being a rapist and pedophile.  Not surprisingly, the website is a farce.  And what are not outright lies, are half-truths, distortions, or irrelevancies. 

It's a proven fact that Anni Hindocha was the victim of a contract killing.