Author Topic: Were the staff at the Batista Supermarket interviewed?  (Read 8871 times)

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Offline Carana

Re: Were the staff at the Batista Supermarket interviewed?
« Reply #45 on: March 15, 2018, 11:24:58 AM »
Well it could be, but what was the implication from that?  Was it "Not part of the OC complex therefore the staff there do not need to be interviewed"?
!

I find it a bit odd as well that they weren't interviewed (unless they were and I've just missed the statements).

Offline jassi

Re: Were the staff at the Batista Supermarket interviewed?
« Reply #46 on: March 15, 2018, 11:31:35 AM »
You've probably answered this already, but what purpose do you think it would have served?
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Were the staff at the Batista Supermarket interviewed?
« Reply #47 on: March 15, 2018, 11:44:29 AM »
You've probably answered this already, but what purpose do you think it would have served?
In another thread it was shown (in the USA) that only 1 in 10,000 cases of abduction  is due to stranger abduction the other 9999 cases are due to related to people that have had contact with that child.  Madeleine had only been in Portugal for 5 days so had very few contacts at that stage but one place was the supermarket.  To eliminate those that had contact is essential IMO.
There no reason to believe human behaviour in Portugal would be that much different.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2018, 11:52:05 AM by Robittybob1 »
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Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: Were the staff at the Batista Supermarket interviewed?
« Reply #48 on: March 15, 2018, 12:01:00 PM »
In another thread it was shown (in the USA) that only 1 in 10,000 cases of abduction  is due to stranger abduction the other 9999 cases are due to related to people that have had contact with that child.  Madeleine had only been in Portugal for 5 days so had very few contacts at that stage but one place was the supermarket.  To eliminate those that had contact is essential IMO.
There no reason to believe human behaviour in Portugal would be that much different.
Did Madeleine ever go to Baptista?

I have seen no evidence that she ever did.
What's up, old man?

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Were the staff at the Batista Supermarket interviewed?
« Reply #49 on: March 15, 2018, 05:07:08 PM »
Did Madeleine ever go to Baptista?

I have seen no evidence that she ever did.
Well in one sentence it was "Kate and Gerry went there", well if they went together I wondered if they took the kids.
To be in the "in contact with the family group" does one actually need to see the kids?
I wonder if it is defined how little contact does one need to have before one is no longer thought of as a "stranger"?

As you discovered it was possible Baptista Supermarket had CCTV camera at the time, so it would be possible that the footage could have showed someone out on the street at that hour.
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Offline Carana

Re: Were the staff at the Batista Supermarket interviewed?
« Reply #50 on: March 17, 2018, 02:47:44 PM »
In another thread it was shown (in the USA) that only 1 in 10,000 cases of abduction  is due to stranger abduction the other 9999 cases are due to related to people that have had contact with that child.  Madeleine had only been in Portugal for 5 days so had very few contacts at that stage but one place was the supermarket.  To eliminate those that had contact is essential IMO.
There no reason to believe human behaviour in Portugal would be that much different.

Rob, check out attempted non-parental abductions.


Offline Robittybob1

Re: Were the staff at the Batista Supermarket interviewed?
« Reply #51 on: March 17, 2018, 07:07:37 PM »
Rob, check out attempted non-parental abductions.
99.9%  is actually 999 out of 1000 not 10,000.  My arithmetic was wrong again.

"In another thread it was shown (in the USA) that only 1 in 1,000 cases of abduction  is due to stranger abduction the other 999 cases are due to related to people that have had contact with that child.  Madeleine had only been in Portugal for 5 days so had very few contacts at that stage but one place was the supermarket.  To eliminate those that had contact is essential IMO.
There no reason to believe human behaviour in Portugal would be that much different."

"attempted non-parental abductions."  Does anyone know much about attempted cases?

Let's start with some definitions: from http://www.childabduction.org.uk/index.php/child-abduction

"Definitions
Child abduction is the unauthorised removal or retention of a minor from a parent or anyone with legal responsibility for the child.

Child abduction can be committed by parents or other family members; by people known but not related to the victim, such as neighbours, friends and acquaintances; and by strangers.

Legal definitions
The criminal offence of child abduction is defined in the provisions of the Child Abduction Act, 1984. This applies, in different forms, in each of the four countries of the UK.

Parental child abduction
The Act makes it a criminal offence for anyone “connected with” a child under the age of 16 to “take or send” that child out of the UK without the appropriate consent. “Connected with” includes parents, guardians or a person with a residence order or custody of the child. “Appropriate consent” is the consent of the mother, the father (if he has parental responsibility), the guardian or anyone with a residence order, parental responsibility or the leave (permission) of the court.

Non-parental child abduction
The Child Abduction Act also makes it a criminal offence for “other persons” to “take or detain” a child under the age of 16 without lawful authority or reasonable excuse. “Other persons” are people other than the child’s parent, guardian or a person with parental responsibility for the child. The majority of non-parental child abductions recorded by police are perpetrated by strangers or by people exploiting young people¹.

Kidnapping
The offence of kidnapping exists in England and Wales and Northern Ireland, and is defined at common law as “the taking or carrying away of one person by another, by force or fraud, without the consent of the person taken or carried away and without lawful excuse. It must involve an attack on or loss of that person’s liberty” ². An offence of kidnapping can be recorded for both child and adult victims.

Scottish offences of abduction and child stealing
In Scotland, there exists another common law offence of abduction: “the carrying off or confining of a person forcibly and without lawful authority” ³. Abduction can be recorded for child and adult victims. In addition, a common law offence of child stealing (‘plagium’) can be committed against children below the age of puberty (under 12 years for girls and under 14 years for boys) when the abductor has no parental responsibility for the child³.   

More information on the law and child abduction is available in our briefing paper: Child Abduction: The Legislative Jigsaw.

Victim perceptions
Not all children who are abducted perceive themselves to have been victimised. For example, some children who are taken by a parent do not identify either themselves as a victim of abduction or the parent as an abductor. Likewise, some young people may willingly go with, or to, a person they regard to be their boyfriend, despite parents and/or police perceiving the relationship to be exploitative. In other cases, individuals may be abducted but more readily identify themselves as victims of a sex offence, robbery, or assault etc.

Police-recorded offences of child abduction
Each year in the UK police forces record more than 500 offences of child abduction. These include completed abductions (where a child is actually taken) and attempted abductions. However, many more incidents go unreported to the police [link to briefing paper on Surveys] and some may not be recorded. See Police-recorded crime briefing [link].

In 2014/15 police forces in England and Wales recorded 822 offences of child abduction⁴.  This compares to 565 offences the previous year; an increase of 45%. The Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI) recorded 43 offences of child abduction, compared to 40 in 2013/14⁵. PACT’s research indicates that non-parental child abduction has been increasing at a faster rate than parental abductions⁶.

england and wales
northern ireland

who abducts

Kidnapping
In addition, police in England and Wales recorded 2,198 kidnappings in 2014/15⁴, an increase of 27% on the previous year. The Police Service of Northern Ireland recorded 45 kidnappings in 2014/15⁵, a decrease of 18%. It is estimated that approximately one-fifth of these offences involve victims under the age of 18³.

Scotland
In 2014/15 Police Scotland recorded 234 offences of abduction (involving both child and adult victims)7 . In addition, Police Scotland recorded one offence of child stealing/plagium in 2013/147 .

Who abducts children?
Over four-fifths of completed abductions recorded by the police involve a perpetrator known to the child. Less than one-fifth are committed by a stranger¹.

Approximately one-quarter of all police-recorded offences (including attempted abductions) involve parental abduction⁶. Many more cases of international parental child abduction go unreported to the police.

Nearly 60 per cent of completed abductions recorded by police are perpetrated by someone known, but not related to, the child. These include acquaintances, neighbours, boyfriends and ex-partners of parents¹. Many cases involve exploitation or grooming.

Nearly one-fifth of completed abductions recorded by police are perpetrated by a stranger (someone who was not known to, or recognised by, the victim). That’s nearly 50 a year. However, there are roughly four times as many attempted abductions by a stranger recorded by police¹."

What I find is no real definition of who is a known person and who is unknown person.  In the UK the ratio is in the order of 25% not 1/1000 according to these figures but no definition of who is a known person and who is unknown person. 


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Offline Carana

Re: Were the staff at the Batista Supermarket interviewed?
« Reply #52 on: March 17, 2018, 07:45:46 PM »
IMO, the terms aren't always the same from one jurisdiction to another. The crimes ultimately found to have been committed don't always appear on the same database. Ages aren't always the same, in terms of the definition of a minor. Some forces don't report the same level of detail, and some don't respond to surveys.

When I looked into it, it was apples, oranges and... bricks.

Question: why only take into account successful non-parental abductions? An attempted one is only one that didn't work out as planned, but someone tried.

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Were the staff at the Batista Supermarket interviewed?
« Reply #53 on: March 17, 2018, 09:21:25 PM »
IMO, the terms aren't always the same from one jurisdiction to another. The crimes ultimately found to have been committed don't always appear on the same database. Ages aren't always the same, in terms of the definition of a minor. Some forces don't report the same level of detail, and some don't respond to surveys.

When I looked into it, it was apples, oranges and... bricks.

Question: why only take into account successful non-parental abductions? An attempted one is only one that didn't work out as planned, but someone tried.

Near Miss v Major Incident. See H,W. Heinrich. Then maybe you already have?
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline Carana

Re: Were the staff at the Batista Supermarket interviewed?
« Reply #54 on: March 17, 2018, 10:52:55 PM »
Near Miss v Major Incident. See H,W. Heinrich. Then maybe you already have?

Never heard of him. Are you referring to this?

https://www.aist.org/AIST/aist/AIST/Publications/safety%20first/14_dec_safety_first.pdf

Fine, a near miss is a leading indicator for future security measures, but I'm not sure that that is the same point. Mine was that successful stranger abductions are indeed rare, but if taken in conjunction with failed attempts, the percentage of strangers posing a danger is higher than that assumed to be the case, based on successful ones alone.

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Were the staff at the Batista Supermarket interviewed?
« Reply #55 on: March 17, 2018, 11:24:56 PM »
Never heard of him. Are you referring to this?

https://www.aist.org/AIST/aist/AIST/Publications/safety%20first/14_dec_safety_first.pdf

Fine, a near miss is a leading indicator for future security measures, but I'm not sure that that is the same point. Mine was that successful stranger abductions are indeed rare, but if taken in conjunction with failed attempts, the percentage of strangers posing a danger is higher than that assumed to be the case, based on successful ones alone.

It is the same principle if you take a failed attempt as a near miss.



"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Were the staff at the Batista Supermarket interviewed?
« Reply #56 on: March 17, 2018, 11:57:20 PM »
Never heard of him. Are you referring to this?

https://www.aist.org/AIST/aist/AIST/Publications/safety%20first/14_dec_safety_first.pdf

Fine, a near miss is a leading indicator for future security measures, but I'm not sure that that is the same point. Mine was that successful stranger abductions are indeed rare, but if taken in conjunction with failed attempts, the percentage of strangers posing a danger is higher than that assumed to be the case, based on successful ones alone.
You would have to include all the failed attempts and near misses for known people as well then and will that balance out the figures?  I think  failed attempts and near misses will be too hard to recognise and therefore not included in any study.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2018, 12:00:26 AM by Robittybob1 »
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Offline Eleanor

Re: Were the staff at the Batista Supermarket interviewed?
« Reply #57 on: March 18, 2018, 06:45:32 AM »

What is the spelling of The Supermarket?  Batista or Baptista.  Around here there is always a P in it, as in John The Baptist, in English.  No E or A on the end.

However, no one has ever produced any evidence that The McCanns bought any quantity of Bleach at all.

But this Thread is going Off Topic, and while I have been a bit lax of late, I am now going to have to insist.

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Were the staff at the Batista Supermarket interviewed?
« Reply #58 on: March 18, 2018, 10:48:08 AM »
What is the spelling of The Supermarket?  Batista or Baptista.  Around here there is always a P in it, as in John The Baptist, in English.  No E or A on the end.

However, no one has ever produced any evidence that The McCanns bought any quantity of Bleach at all.

But this Thread is going Off Topic, and while I have been a bit lax of late, I am now going to have to insist.

According to the rather large sign on it shown in the pics posted earlier, given the pics are of the right place of course, it is "Baptista".

If the McCanns paid in "readies" it would be hard work to prove they bought anything there.
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline Eleanor

Re: Were the staff at the Batista Supermarket interviewed?
« Reply #59 on: March 18, 2018, 11:13:32 AM »
According to the rather large sign on it shown in the pics posted earlier, given the pics are of the right place of course, it is "Baptista".

If the McCanns paid in "readies" it would be hard work to prove they bought anything there.

Thank you, Alice for that.  That is a really good one.  Pronounced Batista.  But see how easy it is.  Even this Thread is incorrectly titled.

However, I do find it difficult to see The McCanns walking out with large quantities of Bleach, to go unnoticed, even if they did pay with cash.