Author Topic: Sceptics beliefs ?  (Read 239606 times)

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Offline The General

Re: Sceptics beliefs ?
« Reply #615 on: April 09, 2019, 09:12:26 AM »
You probably would , but it wouldn't exclude the possibility that you had staged the event and taken the watch for an insurance scam.
How dare you! [scuttles off down to the pawn shop, is offered £12 for the mass produced, non-working, late-Victorian, silver plate pocket watch, agrees, takes the money, nips to Gregg's for a sausage roll and trousers the remaining £11.20]
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Offline G-Unit

Re: Sceptics beliefs ?
« Reply #616 on: April 09, 2019, 09:36:19 AM »
. Perhaps you eould like to explain how my scenario “moves the goalposts”? It is exactly the same as the Madeleine case, only difference is what was taken.

I'm not interested in that, it's the "what ifs" I was referring to. Originally you declared that the open window/shutters would be used in court in the trial of an abductor.

Let's begin at the beginning. No-one will ever be arrested because of that evidence because there's nothing to link anyone to the apartment. No sighting, no fingerprints and no DNA.

The only way an arrest can be made is by connecting the suspect to the child or her remains. Anyone found with her would be arrested but if they denied taking her from the apartment it would be difficult to prove they did. The evidence you mention wouldn't help at all because it  doesn't place then there.

If DNA evidence was found on remains and a match was found that person would be arrested. If they denied taking her from the apartment the evidence you mention wouldn't place them there either.

In both cases evidence placing the suspect in or near the apartment is needed, not evidence which suggests how they might have entered.

The open window/shutters were useful in suggesting what happened to the child but no use in  showing who did it.
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Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Sceptics beliefs ?
« Reply #617 on: April 09, 2019, 05:58:37 PM »
You might, but in reality I think you'd be blaming the wrong person.
Why, who should you be blaming?
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Sceptics beliefs ?
« Reply #618 on: April 09, 2019, 06:01:14 PM »
Let's apply that logic to the case in question: wouldn't you cite the fact that there was a total absence of evidence of any sort that an abduction had taken place as evidence that an abduction had not taken place?
Something / someone is missing, there's circumstantial evidence in one, there's none in the other.
No, because there is evidence, the open window and shutter and missing child are evidence of an abduction.  Had Alesha McPhails killer not been caught on CCTV there would have been even less evidence of abduction than in the McCann case, how does the old saying about absence of evidence go?
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Sceptics beliefs ?
« Reply #619 on: April 09, 2019, 06:01:55 PM »
You probably would , but it wouldn't exclude the possibility that you had staged the event and taken the watch for an insurance scam.
No you’re right but it’s still evidence nonetheless.
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Sceptics beliefs ?
« Reply #620 on: April 09, 2019, 06:04:38 PM »
I'm not interested in that, it's the "what ifs" I was referring to. Originally you declared that the open window/shutters would be used in court in the trial of an abductor.

Let's begin at the beginning. No-one will ever be arrested because of that evidence because there's nothing to link anyone to the apartment. No sighting, no fingerprints and no DNA.

The only way an arrest can be made is by connecting the suspect to the child or her remains. Anyone found with her would be arrested but if they denied taking her from the apartment it would be difficult to prove they did. The evidence you mention wouldn't help at all because it  doesn't place then there.

If DNA evidence was found on remains and a match was found that person would be arrested. If they denied taking her from the apartment the evidence you mention wouldn't place them there either.

In both cases evidence placing the suspect in or near the apartment is needed, not evidence which suggests how they might have entered.

The open window/shutters were useful in suggesting what happened to the child but no use in  showing who did it.
Perhaps you could point to any post I have made where I suggested the open windows would provided evidence of who did it.  You can carry on like this until the cows come home, the fact is Kate’s statement is evidence, she mentions the open window so that’s evidence, it would probably be repeated in a court of law as evidence, why do you continue to dispute this?
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline jassi

Re: Sceptics beliefs ?
« Reply #621 on: April 09, 2019, 06:06:20 PM »
No you’re right but it’s still evidence nonetheless.

So would you agree that evidence can be interpreted in different ways, and so may not be a reliable indicator of anything?
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Sceptics beliefs ?
« Reply #622 on: April 09, 2019, 06:07:53 PM »
Why, who should you be blaming?
Another person who had access to the room.
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: Sceptics beliefs ?
« Reply #623 on: April 09, 2019, 06:10:31 PM »
No you’re right but it’s still evidence nonetheless.
I would tend to call it a finding.
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Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Sceptics beliefs ?
« Reply #624 on: April 09, 2019, 06:16:55 PM »
So would you agree that evidence can be interpreted in different ways, and so may not be a reliable indicator of anything?
Of course, as I think I pointed out yesterday in fact when I asked if Gerry was ever prosecuted for staging an abduction would not the open window and shutters not be used in court as evidence?  I don’t seem to recall anyone commenting on that.   Can we therefore once and for all agree that the open window and shutters are evidence.  They are evidence of abduction, or of something else, but they feature in the statement narrative of at least one key witness so to suggest they are not evidence of anything is IMO absurd.
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Sceptics beliefs ?
« Reply #625 on: April 09, 2019, 06:21:38 PM »
So would you agree that evidence can be interpreted in different ways, and so may not be a reliable indicator of anything?
As the PJ report states faced with a situation of a missing child and an open window Kate is justified in thinking that they are linked, as in MBM was abducted and taken via the window.  That was her initial interpretation.  Later it was found no one climbed through the window, so it is not the full story.

Of course, as I think I pointed out yesterday in fact when I asked if Gerry was ever prosecuted for staging an abduction would not the open window and shutters not be used in court as evidence?  I don’t seem to recall anyone commenting on that.   Can we therefore once and for all agree that the open window and shutters are evidence.  They are evidence of abduction, or of something else, but they feature in the statement narrative of at least one key witness so to suggest they are not evidence of anything is IMO absurd.

The open window and shutters "are evidence of something else" IMO.
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Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Sceptics beliefs ?
« Reply #626 on: April 09, 2019, 06:25:23 PM »
The open windows evidence could be used in a prosecution (or defence)  of an alleged abductor to ascertain whether or not they acted alone
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline jassi

Re: Sceptics beliefs ?
« Reply #627 on: April 09, 2019, 06:26:53 PM »
In what way?
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Sceptics beliefs ?
« Reply #628 on: April 09, 2019, 06:31:37 PM »
In what way?
An alleged abductor in the court could attempt to shift some of the blame onto another by revealing how the abduction took place, via the open window, one handing the child to another.  He could claim to have been a common or garden burglar working with another, expecting his mate to be handing out valuables theough the window and when he was passed the child he tried to protest, was forced into taking her, didn’t want to, but the other guy made him.  Etc, etc etc.
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Sceptics beliefs ?
« Reply #629 on: April 09, 2019, 06:34:58 PM »
An alleged abductor in the court could attempt to shift some of the blame onto another by revealing how the abduction took place, via the open window, one handing the child to another.  He could claim to have been a common or garden burglar working with another, expecting his mate to be handing out valuables theough the window and when he was passed the child he tried to protest, was forced into taking her, didn’t want to, but the other guy made him.  Etc, etc etc.
OK if there were two abductors explain how the first one got into the room?  And while you're at it how did he leave?
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