Author Topic: The Trial Of Derek Chauvin, Death Of George Floyd  (Read 30352 times)

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Offline carlymichelle

Re: The Trial Of Derek Chauvin, Death Of George Floyd
« Reply #165 on: April 12, 2021, 10:23:47 PM »
this  guy talking now is really intresting people on  drugs have  more strength   then those not on   drugs

Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: The Trial Of Derek Chauvin, Death Of George Floyd
« Reply #166 on: April 12, 2021, 10:27:44 PM »
this  guy talking now is really intresting people on  drugs have  more strength   then those not on   drugs

As a former pot smoker I can testify that this doesn't necessarily apply to all people & all drugs.

When I smoked pot I generally needed a nice lie down & plenty of munchies.
I stand with Putin. Glory to Mother Putin.

Offline John

Re: The Trial Of Derek Chauvin, Death Of George Floyd
« Reply #167 on: April 12, 2021, 11:42:39 PM »
As a former pot smoker I can testify that this doesn't necessarily apply to all people & all drugs.

When I smoked pot I generally needed a nice lie down & plenty of munchies.

Munchies eh!  I like them too  &^^&*
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline John

Re: The Trial Of Derek Chauvin, Death Of George Floyd
« Reply #168 on: April 12, 2021, 11:57:49 PM »
A Summary of the trial - Week 2 Day 5 cont'd...

Ref motion to allow or deny Morries Hall's statement taken in Texas.  Judge rules it is not admissable.

Further recess.

Next witness was Philonise Floyd, brother of George Floyd from Houston, Texas.

Direct by State's attorney Steve Schleicher.

States that George was born on 14 October 1973 in North Carolina but left at a young age. States that the family later moved to Houston. Says older brother George helped them all when he was younger.  Had excelled in sports when at school, especially football. State shows photos of George Floyd as a baby with their mother and later in the football team. Also a picture with his daughter now aged 7.

Witness states that the last time he saw George was at their mothers funeral in 2018. Was informed of George's death on 26 May 2020.

Direct ends.
No Defence examination.

Next witness was Professor Seth Stoughton, an associate professor with the University of South Carolina School of Law and an Associate Professor (Affiliate) in the university’s Department of Criminology and Criminal Justice.

Direct by State's attorney Steve Schleicher.

Was a police officer with the Tallahassee Police in the State of Florida for 5 years. Thereafter took a job as an investigator with the Department of Education. Was able to finish his original degree and attended law school at the University of Virginia. On academic pursuits chose to draw on experience with Tallahassee Police. Written law review articles on a number of topics. Authored chapters of books on critical issues in policing and police violence. Co-authored and published a book recently called Evaluating Police Use of Force.

More recently has been a law professor in South Carolina for 7 years. Studies the regulation of policing. Regular speaker on the use of force by police. Had previously been retained about 60 times as an expert witness. Testified by deposition on over 12 occasions in civil cases and testified in court on use of force on three occasions.

Sidebar called.

Witness asked about his retention in this case. States that his fee is $295 per hour with am 8 hour daily minimum and that to date has received compensation of approximately $24,000 to $25,000 for about 130 to 140 hours. States that he gives his opinion irrelevant of who is paying him. That State of Minnesota contacted him. Has come to an opinion about the case after reviewing some 41,000 pages of documentation and videos.

Often called upon to review video from body worn cameras and interpreting the results. The availability of numerous cameras in this case has allowed witness to get a better perspective of the events.

Provided a report of the case of about 300 pages. Reached opinion after evaluating several factors and generally accepted police standards in the use of force. Reference to the Graham v Connor case in determining the factors which must be considered. Ability Opportunity and Intention have to be considered as part of the risk assessment. Size of the individual or recent drug ingestion do not necessarily justify the use of force. Just as there is a spectrum of resistance there is a spectrum of consequences. Analysing use of force it very important to focus on the foreseeable rather than the actual. Proportionality is a balance of harm's. An officer cannot use more force than the event justifies.

Referencing the restraint of George Floyd in the prone restraint position, states that use of force must be reasonable throughout the entire period of the restraint. Viewing the video showing officers attempting to put Floyd in the back seat of the squad car, a reasonable officer would have offered some alternatives when Floyd said he was claustrophobic. States that a reasonable officer would not have seen this as active agression on behalf of Floyd.

Viewing bodycam footage of officers attempt to take Floyd out if the car again, witness states that Floyd had said than you after having been taken out of the squad car. States that it was not reasonable for the officers to place Floyd in the prone position. Other alternatives were available to the officers and should have been considered. That the prone position is merely transitory and should only be used for handcuffing. Witness did not see Floyd as a threat. There was no attempt to escape. There were ample resources on the scene. Two officers could have stood with him while the other two investigated the counterfeit note allegation.

Some discussion ensued in respect of the Hobble leg restraint. Added that suspect should be moved to the recovery position as soon as practicable and not left in the prone position.

Viewed video where one officer suggested turning Floyd onto his side into the recovery position but Chauvin said not to. Added that it appeared that at least one officer was attempting to act reasonably.

Viewed officer Thao's bodycam footage as restraint continued evidencing positional asphyxia. That a reasonable officer on the scene would have reacted to Floyd's distress. That when Floyd passed out, officers failed to respond appropriately.

Viewed bodycam video showing Floyd unresponsive. Officer checks for a pulse but finds none, defendant doesn't respond.

Bystander video shows defendant take his knee off Good and he is moved onto a stretcher.

Court takes afternoon break.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2021, 10:34:10 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline John

Re: The Trial Of Derek Chauvin, Death Of George Floyd
« Reply #169 on: April 13, 2021, 02:16:27 AM »
A Summary of the trial - Week 2 Day 5 cont'd...

Direct examination continues.

It was the witnesses opinion that the bystanders did not constitute a threat during the entire of the restraint. That is only after the restraint period that the bystanders became more vocal. That the comments by officer Thao to the bystanders relating to drugs was inappropriate and not a comment one would use to de-escalate a situation.

That officers have a duty to respond to the situation as it appeared. Factors such as what a suspect is saying, how they are saying it. Noticeable was Floyd's discomfort, his reported inability to breathe and his non vocalising.

The witness was asked whether the degree of force used on George Floyd constituted deadly force, witness agrees.

The witness was asked whether the degree of force used on George Floyd was reasonable force, witness responses that both the knee across Mr Floyd's neck and the prone restraint were unreasonable, excessive and contrary to generally accepted good police practises.

The witness was asked whether the degree of force used on George Floyd was reasonable as viewed by a police officer on the scene, witness responds that no reasonable officer would have believed that that was an appropriate, acceptable or reasonable use of force.

The witness was asked if the defendant appropriately rendered medical aid to George Floyd on 25 May 2020, witness responds that the failure to render aid to Mr Floyd both by taking him out of the prone position and by rendering aid as his increasing medical distress became obvious was unreasonable and contrary to generally accepted police practises.

Direct ends.

Cross examination by Eric Nelson.

Nelson asked the witness if he analysed the case from an academic standpoint. Witness responded that it was reviewed under the professional standards for policing. Adds that the Graham v Connor is the standard.

Nelson asks if officer is entitled to rely upon their training. Witness responds that training should be based on best police practises. Witness adds that officers rely on their training. I'm not assessing an officer on whether they satisfy their training standards, I'm looking at whether they satisfy generally accepted police practises. For my purposes, it is irrelevant whether an officer was doing what he was trained to do because I'm looking at the professional norms which we expect.

Nelson explores the situation as experienced by the defendant when he arrived on the scene. That dispatch had considered that a second patrol car was needed. That reasonable police officers sometimes set out with one set of circumstances but end up with another. Witness responses convoluted and not helpful to Nelson.

Nelson offers the scenario whereby a suspect detained in a car creates a situation whereby his associates in another vehicle have the opportunity to flee or to hide drugs. Witness responds that he supposed it is possible but adds that in this case it was reasonable to expect that the defendant knew that there were passengers. Nelson then points out that the witness has spent 130-140 hours reviewing videos so should know where the different officers were located and when. That officer Chauvin was not to know that there were other persons in the suspect's vehicle. Witness says that an officer arriving in such circumstances would not necessarily know the entire situation.

Nelson points out that some suspects say they will cooperate but their actions are not cooperative, what is an officer to do in that situation, witness responds that he thinks it depends on the situation...no I don't think an officer has to assume that a person will at some future point comply.

Nelson suggests that an officer is entitled to use such force as it required to overcome a suspects resistance, witness responds that an officer can use force which is proportionate and reasonable to address an individuals non compliance or resistance assuming they have the legal authority to do so.

Nelson asks if it is the officer or the suspect who decides if a suspect should go into the squad car, witness responds that the officer decides assuming there is legal authority and the like. Nelson then asks assuming there is legal authority the suspect doesn't get to dictate whether he goes into the squad car or sits on the ground. Witness responds to some extent yes...there is a hmmn hmm yes.

Nelson refers to the video clips already viewed. Asks if a reasonable officer would know that the other officers were only on field day two. Witness responds it depends what a reasonable officer knows at that point.

Nelson makes the point that the officers of the second patrol arriving on the scene were not to know if the suspect's vehicle had been searched.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2021, 04:31:33 AM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline John

Re: The Trial Of Derek Chauvin, Death Of George Floyd
« Reply #170 on: April 13, 2021, 04:30:55 AM »
A Summary of the trial - Week 2 Day 5 cont'd...

Witness affirms that putting Floyd in the prone position was unreasonable. Nelson points out that that was contrary to force training.  Witness affirms that the prone position should only be used as a transitory position only.

Nelson refers to an opinion piece by the witness to the Washington Post four days after the Floyd incident in which it opined an excessive use of force. Witness responds that he formed the opinion that putting your knee across someone's neck except in absolutely unbelievably rare circumstances is generally an inappropriate use of force.

Asked if he could determine what force the defendant vhad applied to Floyd's neck, witness responds that he could not with any specificity. That the pressured varied occasionally.

Asked if reasonable police officers expect an EMS response within a reasonable time, witness responds yes...when you call EMS you expect them to respond.

That a reasonable officer needs to take notice of bystanders, witness agrees if threatening.  That a reasonable police officer would know that they are being recorded, witness agrees that is fair description.

Nelson suggests that a reasonable use of force might not look pretty to a bystander, witness agrees that an officer can act reasonably in terms of generally accepted police practises and it can look bad but I do not think that is the case here.

Nelson makes reference to use of force continuum and passive resistance. Specifically where Floyd appears to kick out at officers after an officer attempted to control his legs.

Nelson states that reasonable officers could be distracted by bystanders, by what was occurring at the suspect's car, on the other side of the street, by radio traffic etc, witness concurs.

Nelson states that in reviewing the events, witness was not experiencing what the officers felt at that point, witness responds that individually he was not experiencing it no...that he was applying the reasonable officer on the scene framework.

Nelson states that witness does not have the sensory responses to what the officers were doing, witness states that tactile feedback does not show up on video...right.

That in doing his use of force review the witness was not doing it in a dangerous environment, witness responds that without making any jokes about his kids that no, he wasn't doing it in a dangerous situation.

Nelson states that witness has the luxury of slow motion, enhancement, looking at it from different perspectives, agreed?  Witness responds that for the portion of the review where he was identifying what the underlying facts were, yes, I can slow video down, I can freeze frame, as I am taking those facts, I agree that a reasonable officer on the scene does not have those capabilities.

Witness states that officers can do various things to mitigate risk if a compliant suspect later becomes non compliant.  Accepts officers can use some force to deal with passive resistance.  That officers can maintain control when a suspect IDs placed in the recovery position.

End of cross examination.

Re direct examination.

Witness agrees need to constantly review their awareness of what is in front of them. That a reasonable officer should have taken note when a fellow officer pointed out that the suspect had no pulse. That someone struggling to breathe in a positional asphyxia situation is fighting to get air, not fighting officers.

End of direct examination.

[Judge advises jury that the defence case to start tomorrow with the last day of evidence to be Friday.  Closing arguments to start on Monday which gives both sides extra time to prepare. Jury should expect sequestration from Monday so they should pack an overnight bag]
« Last Edit: April 13, 2021, 05:26:25 AM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Angelo222

Re: The Trial Of Derek Chauvin, Death Of George Floyd
« Reply #171 on: April 13, 2021, 10:30:22 AM »
I thought the trial was to last four weeks but if closing speeches are to happen on Monday then we could very well have a verdict next week.
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Online Eleanor

Re: The Trial Of Derek Chauvin, Death Of George Floyd
« Reply #172 on: April 13, 2021, 11:09:27 AM »
I thought the trial was to last four weeks but if closing speeches are to happen on Monday then we could very well have a verdict next week.

What price on The Defence?  It is all looking very iffy to me.  The Prosecution I mean.

I am trying to be objective about this.  I don't like Chauvin, bearing in mind that I don't know him personally, but I am having with trouble finding him culpable.

I don't know very much about Racism in America, but that was one very large black man with a criminal record who was also a drug abuser.  So what to say for a Policeman who was trying to deal with this person at that moment?

It will all come down to Semantics in the end.  And whether or not Chauvin intended to kill Floyd.  Which I very much doubt.  And with a bit of Political Correctness thrown in, of course.

To convict any person based entirely on Political Correctness would be a disgrace.


Offline Angelo222

Re: The Trial Of Derek Chauvin, Death Of George Floyd
« Reply #173 on: April 13, 2021, 12:34:18 PM »
What price on The Defence?  It is all looking very iffy to me.  The Prosecution I mean.

I am trying to be objective about this.  I don't like Chauvin, bearing in mind that I don't know him personally, but I am having with trouble finding him culpable.

I don't know very much about Racism in America, but that was one very large black man with a criminal record who was also a drug abuser.  So what to say for a Policeman who was trying to deal with this person at that moment?

It will all come down to Semantics in the end.  And whether or not Chauvin intended to kill Floyd.  Which I very much doubt.  And with a bit of Political Correctness thrown in, of course.

To convict any person based entirely on Political Correctness would be a disgrace.

Let's be honest, Chauvin will be the sacrificial lamb slaughtered to appease those within the black community who are only out for blood, nothing else will do, an eye for an eye and all that. Watching the squirming mayor of Brooklyn Center in Minneapolis yesterday must have been humiliating and now he has total control over the police too. If America though it had problems before, it is nothing to what is yet to come imo. Black criminals appear to be winning this war, they are becoming like the untouchables.
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Online Eleanor

Re: The Trial Of Derek Chauvin, Death Of George Floyd
« Reply #174 on: April 13, 2021, 01:16:39 PM »
Let's be honest, Chauvin will be the sacrificial lamb slaughtered to appease those within the black community who are only out for blood, nothing else will do, an eye for an eye and all that. Watching the squirming mayor of Brooklyn Center in Minneapolis yesterday must have been humiliating and now he has total control over the police too. If America though it had problems before, it is nothing to what is yet to come imo. Black criminals appear to be winning this war, they are becoming like the untouchables.

I wouldn't be too sure about that.  There are some Americans who can listen and understand.

There is almost nothing but violence these days, so now would be a good time to beware of what you wish for.

The Prosecution isn't looking good, with too many contradictions, so which Expert Witness are we supposed to believe? 
While one lone man is set to defend his client against an army.  Shades of David and Goliath.  And we all know who won that one.

Offline Angelo222

Re: The Trial Of Derek Chauvin, Death Of George Floyd
« Reply #175 on: April 13, 2021, 01:24:05 PM »
I wouldn't be too sure about that.  There are some Americans who can listen and understand.

There is almost nothing but violence these days, so now would be a good time to beware of what you wish for.

The Prosecution isn't looking good, with too many contradictions, so which Expert Witness are we supposed to believe? 
While one lone man is set to defend his client against an army.  Shades of David and Goliath.  And we all know who won that one.

I accept that Eleanor but in my view Chauvin did wrong. He must realise this too otherwise he wouldn't have asked for a plea deal. I'm curious as to what the other three officers will get because of Chauvin's intransigence. At least one of them saw the danger after failing to find a pulse and suggested Floyd be turned on his side. Alas all too late unfortunately.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2021, 01:26:23 PM by Angelo222 »
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Online Eleanor

Re: The Trial Of Derek Chauvin, Death Of George Floyd
« Reply #176 on: April 13, 2021, 01:38:29 PM »

This isn't about Chauvin, in my opinion.  It's about the gift of the gab.  Let's see what The Defence has to say.

Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: The Trial Of Derek Chauvin, Death Of George Floyd
« Reply #177 on: April 13, 2021, 02:02:29 PM »

I really hope he gets acquitted, because that would give protesters the moral right to destroy homes & businesses & then rebuild their new police free utopia.

I'm sure it will be a great success, I mean, If you don't have laws then there's no such thing as crime is there.
I stand with Putin. Glory to Mother Putin.

Offline Angelo222

Re: The Trial Of Derek Chauvin, Death Of George Floyd
« Reply #178 on: April 13, 2021, 02:39:04 PM »
I really hope he gets acquitted, because that would give protesters the moral right to destroy homes & businesses & then rebuild their new police free utopia.

I'm sure it will be a great success, I mean, If you don't have laws then there's no such thing as crime is there.

I suspect that there will be riots and looting regardless, it's a way of life for some.
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Offline John

Re: The Trial Of Derek Chauvin, Death Of George Floyd
« Reply #179 on: April 13, 2021, 02:49:18 PM »
I really hope he gets acquitted, because that would give protesters the moral right to destroy homes & businesses & then rebuild their new police free utopia.

I'm sure it will be a great success, I mean, If you don't have laws then there's no such thing as crime is there.

Let's not regress
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.