UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: stephen25000 on November 01, 2015, 10:51:14 AM
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The latest 'story' in the Express.
Did this German serial killer snatch Madeleine McCann? Police probe new suspect
A CHILD murderer who has confessed to killing two boys is expected to be investigated over the disappearence of Madeleine McCann.
Four-year-old Bosnian refugee Mohammed Januzi was snatched as his parents visited a government welfare office in Berlin on October 1.
Last Tuesday police released CCTV footage of the child being led away from the building by a bearded man.
Later Silvio’s mother called police because she was suspicious about the behaviour of her son.
(http://static.bz-berlin.de/data/uploads/2015/10/89uouiphup_1446232598-768x432.jpg)
Detectives in Germany also want to know if the 32-year-old double killer, known only as Silvio S, took five-year-old Inga Gehricke.
Since she vanished on May 2 this year after walking into woods during a family barbecue in the Saxony-Anhalt state, some 50 miles from Berlin, Inga has been known as the German Madeleine.
Scotland Yard detectives seeking Madeleine, who disappeared in Portugal aged three on May 3, 2007, are following developments closely.
It is expected they will ask their German counterparts to check the killer’s passport to see if he was ever in Portugal.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/616077/Madeleine-McCann-new-suspect-Germany-Silvio-S-serial-killer-children
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The latest 'story' in the Express.
Did this German serial killer snatch Madeleine McCann? Police probe new suspect
A CHILD murderer who has confessed to killing two boys is expected to be investigated over the disappearence of Madeleine McCann.
Four-year-old Bosnian refugee Mohammed Januzi was snatched as his parents visited a government welfare office in Berlin on October 1.
Last Tuesday police released CCTV footage of the child being led away from the building by a bearded man.
Later Silvio’s mother called police because she was suspicious about the behaviour of her son.
(http://static.bz-berlin.de/data/uploads/2015/10/89uouiphup_1446232598-768x432.jpg)
Detectives in Germany also want to know if the 32-year-old double killer, known only as Silvio S, took five-year-old Inga Gehricke.
Since she vanished on May 2 this year after walking into woods during a family barbecue in the Saxony-Anhalt state, some 50 miles from Berlin, Inga has been known as the German Madeleine.
Scotland Yard detectives seeking Madeleine, who disappeared in Portugal aged three on May 3, 2007, are following developments closely.
It is expected they will ask their German counterparts to check the killer’s passport to see if he was ever in Portugal.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/616077/Madeleine-McCann-new-suspect-Germany-Silvio-S-serial-killer-children
Detectives found the decomposing body of four-year-old Bosnian refugee Mohammed Januzi in the boot of his car, hidden among cat litter.
The lad was snatched on October 1. Silvio S has admitted he took the child to his home, sexually abused him and strangled him the following day because he would not stop crying.
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Detectives found the decomposing body of four-year-old Bosnian refugee Mohammed Januzi in the boot of his car, hidden among cat litter.
The lad was snatched on October 1. Silvio S has admitted he took the child to his home, sexually abused him and strangled him the following day because he would not stop crying.
Notice the photo of the abductor with the poor wee lad being led away, putting paid to the myth that a child of Madeleine's age would scream the place down in such a situation.
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Notice the photo of the abductor with the poor wee lad being led away, putting paid to the myth that a child of Madeleine's age would scream the place down in such a situation.
Police sources said during interviews Silvio S was “very cold”, showing signs of strong emotion only when he talked about his own family.
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Police sources said during interviews Silvio S was “very cold”, showing signs of strong emotion only when he talked about his own family.
what has that got to do with my observation regarding the child he was able to lead away?
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Notice the photo of the abductor with the poor wee lad being led away, putting paid to the myth that a child of Madeleine's age would scream the place down in such a situation.
There is a big difference between a child being led away in broad daylight ( with perhaps inducements of sweets, puppies etc ) and a grown man appearing in the dead of night in a child's bedroom.
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There is a big difference between a child being led away in broad daylight ( with perhaps inducements of sweets, puppies etc ) and a grown man appearing in the dead of night in a child's bedroom.
Well Santa manages it every year without widespread panic and screaming from the world's children. Imagine you have friends round and one of them goes upstairs to look in on your sleepy 4 year old child, never having met her before. Do you expect your child would scream the place down? How about if your friend introduced himself and said "Daddy sent me upstairs to fetch you down for some cake and ice cream", would you still expect hysterical shrieking and resistance? If so, I'd say you either have a very highly strung suspicious child or don't actually have children at all.
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The evil man abused and killed BOYS and further the german newspapers made no reference to Madeleine Mccann....it was a uk tabloid construct...if anyone thnks any paedophile in the whole world with whatever Mo could be responsible. Well look for the non existent needle then
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Well Santa manages it every year without widespread panic and screaming from the world's children. Imagine you have friends round and one of them goes upstairs to look in on your sleepy 4 year old child, never having met her before. Do you expect your child would scream the place down? How about if your friend introduced himself and said "Daddy sent me upstairs to fetch you down for some cake and ice cream", would you still expect hysterical shrieking and resistance? If so, I'd say you either have a very highly strung suspicious child or don't actually have children at all.
Madeleine's grandmother certainly knew her and she said that if a stranger tried to carry Madeleine away she would scream the place down.
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Madeleine's grandmother certainly knew her and she said that if a stranger tried to carry Madeleine away she would scream the place down.
On these sort of holidays kids can get totally exhausted and be difficult to wake
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On these sort of holidays kids can get totally exhausted and be difficult to wake
And that would be an abductor's plan would it? Take a chance they wouldn't wake with people checking and dining nearby and others in that block. More like the child couldn't wake and scream.
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On these sort of holidays kids can get totally exhausted and be difficult to wake
Not according to Mrs Fenn and Kate McCann herself from her book. Maddie cried on at least two nights, the Tuesday and the Wednesday prior to her disappearance on the Thursday night. Not the sign of an exhausted child but a desperately lonely one?
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Madeleine's grandmother certainly knew her and she said that if a stranger tried to carry Madeleine away she would scream the place down.
How many times had a stranger tried to carry her away in front of her Grandmother, I wonder...? The thing is - you may THINK you know how someone is going to behave in any given situation but it doesn't necessarily follow that they will conform to your expectations.
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How many times had a stranger tried to carry her away in front of her Grandmother, I wonder...? The thing is - you may THINK you know how someone is going to behave in any given situation but it doesn't necessarily follow that they will conform to your expectations.
Worth taking a chance on? Why not go for an easier target?
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Worth taking a chance on? Why not go for an easier target?
Precisely Slarti.
The usual excuse given, is that a younger child is harder to deal with.
That doesn't add up on a variety of levels.
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Worth taking a chance on? Why not go for an easier target?
Who knows what goes on in the mind of a child abductor? They do take insane risks, that much is known.
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How many times had a stranger tried to carry her away in front of her Grandmother, I wonder...? The thing is - you may THINK you know how someone is going to behave in any given situation but it doesn't necessarily follow that they will conform to your expectations.
So now you know Madeleine better than her grandmother ?
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So now you know Madeleine better than her grandmother ?
No course not. My point is, she can't really know how Madeleine would have reacted until it actually happened, same as I really have no idea how my kids would react to an intruder into their rooms at the age of 4. I don't think they would have screamed, but I may be wrong - fortunately we never had to find out.
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The latest 'story' in the Express.
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Scotland Yard detectives seeking Madeleine, who disappeared in Portugal aged three on May 3, 2007, are following developments closely.
It is expected they will ask their German counterparts to check the killer’s passport to see if he was ever in Portugal.
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Can anyone tell from your passport where you have been travelling in Europe?
Let me see - Portugal, Spain, France, Greece, Italy. Not a mark on my passport.
USA and Egypt, my passport got stamped.
Canada? Sorry, not sure.
So who's got a passport stamp from travelling within the EU?
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Can anyone tell from your passport where you have been travelling in Europe?
Let me see - Portugal, Spain, France, Greece, Italy. Not a mark on my passport.
USA and Egypt, my passport got stamped.
Canada? Sorry, not sure.
So who's got a passport stamp from travelling within the EU?
Not wanting to further a discussion about an extremely tenuous possibility and suspect number 2450 ...passports dont need stamps, they are scanned these days, the number of times, and places dependent on airport/country procedures....how long that info is kept though I have no idea...
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Not wanting to further a discussion about an extremely tenuous possibility and suspect number 2450 ...passports dont need stamps, they are scanned these days, the number of times, and places dependent on airport/country procedures....how long that info is kept though I have no idea...
Mine has never been scanned.
Eyeballed every time. Stamped occasionally. Scanned never.
Is there something about Germans that the Portuguese, in a union of free movement, feel the need to track?
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Mine has never been scanned.
Eyeballed every time. Stamped occasionally. Scanned never.
Is there something about Germans that the Portuguese, in a union of free movement, feel the need to track?
As I said I do not know every country's procedures, here in the UK, my passport is scanned at check in and just before boarding...it is also scanned on entry to holiday destination x, sometimes not y, and then on return to the UK always scanned
I am sure if the police authorities need to check on someones movements and activities it wont be that hard as there are many ways
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As I said I do not know every country's procedures, here in the UK, my passport is scanned at check in and just before boarding...it is also scanned on entry to holiday destination x, sometimes not y, and then on return to the UK always scanned
I am sure if the police authorities need to check on someones movements and activities it wont be that hard as there are many ways
Just what is it there is on your passport to scan?
I have a fairly recent British passport, and on mine there is nothing to scan.
There is no barcode, there is no magnetic strip, there is zero.
My passport is numbered. As a security precaution, this number is perphorated into one of the early pages.
I cannot go through one of the post-Madeleine automatic check ins because I have got nothing that checks in.
What did German man have in 2007 that did?
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Just what is it there is on your passport to scan?
I have a fairly recent British passport, and on mine there is nothing to scan.
There is no barcode, there is no magnetic strip, there is zero.
My passport is numbered. As a security precaution, this number is perphorated into one of the early pages.
I cannot go through one of the post-Madeleine automatic check ins because I have got nothing that checks in.
What did German man have in 2007 that did?
I think your info is on the hologram on page 31 if there is no chip. E passports were introduced in 2006.
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Just what is it there is on your passport to scan?
I have a fairly recent British passport, and on mine there is nothing to scan.
There is no barcode, there is no magnetic strip, there is zero.
My passport is numbered. As a security precaution, this number is perphorated into one of the early pages.
I cannot go through one of the post-Madeleine automatic check ins because I have got nothing that checks in.
What did German man have in 2007 that did?
If there was nothng to scan they wouldnt scan it i suppose, dunno
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I think your info is on the hologram on page 31 if there is no chip. E passports were introduced in 2006.
I have not been chipped, passport or otherwise.
On page 31 I have an owl.
If you mean the stuff on p3, I have a crappy photo of me, a note that there are no official observations, something that looks like a gull in flight, and a flying bird in silhouette.
Page 2 looks more promising. There is a tiny symbol at the end of the top line of "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" that looks ominous.
But I have been a visitor to Portugal multiple times in the last 10 years. I have never had my passport swiped or scanned.
Why should Mr German's be different?
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There have been microchips in Uk passports since at least 2006 I think, and passports are scanned, according to this https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/importance-of-scanning-passports-in-eu-uks-participation-in-schengen-agreement/importance-of-scanning-passports-within-eu-and-countries-across-the-world-by-border-force-and-schengen-borders-provisions
Passengers may not notice that their information has been taken if they give API or Advance Passenger Information prior to check in.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/uk-passport-exit-checks-everything-5476792
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Having looked at my passport again, note 3 makes it clear that I've got an e-passport, and that I can use it in automated gates if I choose.
I wasn't aware I did have one, so I've never used an automated gate.
The current one was issued in 2011, so the previous one would have been 2001. Presumably not chipped?
I'm still not sure about this one. Paedo McDonald was picked up in 2010, supposedly from CCTV of his mobile home. Precisely how he was tracked to a camp site in Olhâo is unclear. If Portugal had a computer register of passports v hotels/camp sites etc then it would have been a doddle, but I have to say that sounds awfully advanced to me, based on my experience of Portuguese systems.
Hmmm.
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Having looked at my passport again, note 3 makes it clear that I've got an e-passport, and that I can use it in automated gates if I choose.
I wasn't aware I did have one, so I've never used an automated gate.
The current one was issued in 2011, so the previous one would have been 2001. Presumably not chipped?
I'm still not sure about this one. Paedo McDonald was picked up in 2010, supposedly from CCTV of his mobile home. Precisely how he was tracked to a camp site in Olhâo is unclear. If Portugal had a computer register of passports v hotels/camp sites etc then it would have been a doddle, but I have to say that sounds awfully advanced to me, based on my experience of Portuguese systems.
Hmmm.
He was using a stolen passport in Portugal (Smith) Maybe he was apprehended and recognised?
2 passengers on the plane that left Malaysia and disappeared, also used stolen passports. So there seems to be very little else can be done to be sure that the bearer of a passport is the owner. Fingerprint recognition might work though.
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There have been microchips in Uk passports since at least 2006 I think, and passports are scanned, according to this https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/importance-of-scanning-passports-in-eu-uks-participation-in-schengen-agreement/importance-of-scanning-passports-within-eu-and-countries-across-the-world-by-border-force-and-schengen-borders-provisions
Passengers may not notice that their information has been taken if they give API or Advance Passenger Information prior to check in.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/uk-passport-exit-checks-everything-5476792
I assume that you are talking about airports and it is to do with airline security. I travel by ferry to Ireland once or twice a year and they never check my passport at all, either coming or going, merely scan a pre printed ticket and that seems to be to ensure that its the right car that is going.
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I assume that you are talking about airports and it is to do with airline security. I travel by ferry to Ireland once or twice a year and they never check my passport at all, either coming or going, merely scan a pre printed ticket and that seems to be to ensure that its the right car that is going.
There is no effective 'border' between the UK and Ireland, the only checks are for security and external immigration purposes. If you were Arabian, Afro or Asian looking you would attract much more attention from Border Agency staff who are now asked with thwarting illegal immigrants from entering the UK by the back door.
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There is no effective 'border' between the UK and Ireland, the only checks are for security and external immigration purposes. If you were Afro or Asian looking you would attract much more attention by Border Agency staff who are now asked with thwarting illegal immigrants from entering the UK.
I doubt if you could fly from UK to Dublin without showing a passport.
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I doubt if you could fly from UK to Dublin without showing a passport.
Only Ryanair require a passport. Their own rule. There is no land border controls between the UK and Ireland any more, you can walk, cycle or drive between the two freely.
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Only Ryanair requires a passport. Their own rule.
You mean my driving licence or bus pass would suffice?
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You mean my driving licence or bus pass would suffice?
You require proper photo id so they can match you to your ticket.
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You require proper photo id so they can match you to your ticket.
T he point I am making is that this doesn't happen when using the ferry.
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T he point I am making is that this doesn't happen when using the ferry.
Quite right. I travelled to Ireland regularly by both means from 1969 until early 2000s
First off no passport or ID was required for ferry or by air. Then ID for air travel was introduced 1990s?
Last time I went by ferry was 2006 and no checks were carried out. Last time by air was about the same time and I needed ID so I used a photocard driving licence. It was fun in the eighties when the security guys at airports made you perform a calculation on an electronic calculator if you had one in your hand baggage!!
But back to the plot surely in this instance we need to be conversant with what checks are made in the Schengen area ? I thought on immigration that was nil ? So unless the guy is on an airline manifest no one will know. If he was smart enough to want not to leave a trail then he would go by train or car?
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Quite right. I travelled to Ireland regularly by both means from 1969 until early 2000s
First off no passport or ID was required for ferry or by air. Then ID for air travel was introduced 1990s?
Last time I went by ferry was 2006 and no checks were carried out. Last time by air was about the same time and I needed ID so I used a photocard driving licence. It was fun in the eighties when the security guys at airports made you perform a calculation on an electronic calculator if you had one in your hand baggage!!
But back to the plot surely in this instance we need to be conversant with what checks are made in the Schengen area ? I thought on immigration that was nil ? So unless the guy is on an airline manifest no one will know. If he was smart enough to want not to leave a trail then he would go by train or car?
If in fact he has ever visited to Portugal at all. Presumably he wouldn't be able to prove he had never visited.
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If in fact he has ever visited to Portugal at all. Presumably he wouldn't be able to prove he had never visited.
It starts to have the smell of "every paedophile in the universe must be linked to Madeleine McCann's disappearance".
It's little wonder The MPS ran up a bill of £10MM plus.
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It starts to have the smell of "every paedophile in the universe must be linked to Madeleine McCann's disappearance".
It's little wonder The MPS ran up a bill of £10MM plus.
It does not smell of that at all. There are hundreds of thousands of known paedophiles that haven't been linked to the case, but paedophiles in Europe who are known to have abducted and murdered children at roughly the same time that Madeleine went misising (give or take a few years either side) are bound to be of interest. Why shouldn't they be?
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It does not smell of that at all. There are hundreds of thousands of known paedophiles that haven't been linked to the case, but paedophiles in Europe who are known to have abducted and murdered children at roughly the same time that Madeleine went misising (give or take a few years either side) are bound to be of interest. Why shouldn't they be?
So logically, if someone is shot, the police should be interested in anyone in Europe guilty of gun offences around the same time?
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So logically, if someone is shot, the police should be interested in anyone in Europe guilty of gun offences around the same time?
No, that is not logical. There are very few known child abductor / murderers. It is, as we know, a mercifully uncommon crime, but the propensity for such criminals to have struck more than once is (I would imagine) quite high. That is why I would suggest that it would not be scandalously outrageous for police investigating the disappaearance of a child in what is believed to be a criminal act by a stranger, to check whether known child sex killers had any links to the area in which the child went missing.
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No, that is not logical. There are very few known child abductor / murderers. It is, as we know, a mercifully uncommon crime, but the propensity for such criminals to have struck more than once is (I would imagine) quite high. That is why I would suggest that it would not be scandalously outrageous for police investigating the disappaearance of a child in what is believed to be a criminal act by a stranger, to check whether known child sex killers had any links to the area in which the child went missing.
Which is fine if we a looking at criminals with the same MO, there appears to be a tendency to try and link anyone with an inclination towards children of any age to the McCann case.
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Which is fine if we a looking at criminals with the same MO, there appears to be a tendency to try and link anyone with an inclination towards children of any age to the McCann case.
Does there? So, what percentage of the hundreds of thousands of European paedophiles known to the authorities have been linked to the case, roughly speaking??
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So much sneering at police forces investigating known child sex killers. Perhaps someone could explain why? Is police interest in these individuals as a result of police stupidity and ineptness, or part of some wider conspiracy to deflect from the "real" criminals in this case, hmm "sceptics"? Do tell.
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I have checked with someone whose UK passport was renewed in Feb 2015. It is, of course, chipped.
The previous passport, dating to around Feb 2005 was not chipped. Nor was it ever stamped. All travel on that passport was within the EU.
So whatever the precise date the chip scheme started, it had to be in its infancy around May 2007.
Portugal tends not to be in the vanguard in efforts where individuals are tracked. No DNA register in 2007. No sex offender register in 2007.
The family wedding in mid 2015 involved a jaunt to Gibraltar. There was no check of any kind either way across the Portugal - Spain border, as the mini-bus was not required to stop. The Spain-Gibraltar border had a passport check in both directions. Whether that is to do with the Spain-Gib dispute or the fact there is a ferry service in/out of Gib - who knows.
So how porous was Portugal in 2007? And how did SY check out those 650 sex offenders?
You could discard those known to be in jail. Those making required checks at police stations in the UK, or if other countries have such a system, in that country. Those known to be outside the EU at the time, getting their passport stamped. Is it down to alibis after that e.g. known to be at work?
Tough if you were a known offender and known to be in the Algarve at the time, but only 1 person appears to have been of interest to OG on that basis.
The actual passport seems of limited use in this respect. With each change of passport, historic data would be lost. Governments would need to centralise data on trips in and out, rather than having to check dozens of airlines and umpty ports each time.
So in this guy's case, wouldn't SY check with the German police authorities?
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So much sneering at police forces investigating known child sex killers. Perhaps someone could explain why? Is police interest in these individuals as a result of police stupidity and ineptness, or part of some wider conspiracy to deflect from the "real" criminals in this case, hmm "sceptics"? Do tell.
No one is sneering at the police Alf.
Rather sneering at the attempts by elements of the press and some posters on here to link ..................well roughly as Slarti says.
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No one is sneering at the police Alf.
Rather sneering at the attempts by elements of the press and some posters on here to link ..................well roughly as Slarti says.
We know that the police have been investigating up to 650 known child sex offenders don't we, surely that's worth a little "sceptic" sneer or two in their direction? If not, why not?
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We know that the police have been investigating up to 650 known child sex offenders don't we, surely that's worth a little "sceptic" sneer or two in their direction? If not, why not?
Best ask those who sneer at the police. There are a few on here of both flavours.
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Best ask those who sneer at the police. There are a few on here of both flavours.
So, in your opinion (which I know is not something you like to share with us, but I'll ask anyway) are the police involved in the current investigation right to investigate known child sex offenders across Europe, including (possibly) the German child abductor and murderer who is the subject of this thread?
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So, in your opinion (which I know is not something you like to share with us, but I'll ask anyway) are the police involved in the current investigation right to investigate known child sex offenders across Europe, including (possibly) the German child abductor and murderer who is the subject of this thread?
Provided there are grounds to believe he was in Luz at the appropriate time then the police should ask questions of him. Otherwise I guess we go at it buckshot style and interview all known sex offenders in the world just on the off chance, but those without a charge against their name will likely slip the net I suppose it depends how best to manage limited resources.
Which all then begs the question I posed about the press reporting.
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Provided there are grounds to believe he was in Luz at the appropriate time then the police should ask questions of him. Otherwise I guess we go at it buckshot style and interview all known sex offenders in the world just on the off chance, but those without a charge against their name will likely slip the net I suppose it depends how best to manage limited resources.
Which all then begs the question I posed about the press reporting.
Do you recognise that there is a difference between known sex offenders and known child abductors and killers? Do you not think that prioritising this latter group to see if there may be a link is good practice in such an investigation? Which is basically what this newspaper report is saying - the police want to investigate whether or not this man was in Portugal at the time of Madeleine's disappearance. Why this should be scoffed at I really have no idea, do you?
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Do you recognise that there is a difference between known sex offenders and known child abductors and killers? Do you not think that prioritising this latter group to see if there may be a link is good practice in such an investigation? Which is basically what this newspaper report is saying - the police want to investigate whether or not this man was in Portugal at the time of Madeleine's disappearance. Why this should be scoffed at I really have no idea, do you?
Are you suggesting that the 650 people that they say they have already investigated fit this latter category - ie abductors and killers?
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The interesting thing about the apprehension of this beastly man is that it was as a result of his mother's suspicions and her subsequent report to the authorities.
She is to be congratulated. Her action has resulted in two families of missing children at least getting closure.
It is normal police practice to question offenders about similar types of crime ... anyone who thinks this man should not be questioned about his whereabouts and every missing child in those areas just doesn't have a clue.
Police traced child killer Robert Black using his petrol receipts ... and I am sure there are many other ways of tracing the movements of these miscreants ... why on earth shouldn't that be done?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2054133/Robert-Black-convicted-murder-fourth-schoolgirl-Jennifer-Cardy.html
If Operation Grange ask about this man, they won't be the only policing authority with a missing child in their jurisdiction doing exactly the same.
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Are you suggesting that the 650 people that they say they have already investigated fit this latter category - ie abductors and killers?
no, I'm not suggesting that. No doubt amongst the 650 there are those that have attempted to abduct or who have abducted young children, some may be killers, some may have committed sex offences on young children within the Algarve. Do you disagree with my premise that police will likely prioritise investigations into sex offenders by the seriousness of their offence?
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no, I'm not suggesting that. No doubt amongst the 650 there are those that have attempted to abduct or who have abducted young children, some may be killers, some may have committed sex offences on young children within the Algarve. Do you disagree with my premise that police will likely prioritise investigations into sex offenders by the seriousness of their offence?
No, but your previous post was differentiating between the two categories
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No, but your previous post was differentiating between the two categories
Yes, because some on here have facetiously remarked that practically every paedo in Europe has been linked to Madeleine's disappearance which is patent nonsense, but some "sceptics" do like to make cheap, childish points about this case for some reason.
Anyway, glad to see that you don't disagree with my premise. ?{)(**
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Do you recognise that there is a difference between known sex offenders and known child abductors and killers? Do you not think that prioritising this latter group to see if there may be a link is good practice in such an investigation? Which is basically what this newspaper report is saying - the police want to investigate whether or not this man was in Portugal at the time of Madeleine's disappearance. Why this should be scoffed at I really have no idea, do you?
We cant be reading the same article.
I can find a couple of "expecteds" and a speculation linking this guy to Madeliene McCann but that's about all. Expected by whom one might ask
"A CHILD murderer who has confessed to killing two boys is expected to be investigated over the disappearence of Madeleine McCann.
Scotland Yard detectives seeking Madeleine, who disappeared in Portugal aged three on May 3, 2007, are following developments closely.
It is expected they will ask their German counterparts to check the killer’s passport to see if he was ever in Portugal.
Inga has been known as the German Madeleine".
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We cant be reading the same article.
I can find a couple of "expecteds" and a speculation linking this guy to Madeliene McCann but that's about all. Expected by whom one might ask
"A CHILD murderer who has confessed to killing two boys is expected to be investigated over the disappearence of Madeleine McCann.
Scotland Yard detectives seeking Madeleine, who disappeared in Portugal aged three on May 3, 2007, are following developments closely.
It is expected they will ask their German counterparts to check the killer’s passport to see if he was ever in Portugal.
Inga has been known as the German Madeleine".
So what are you saying then? That SY are probably not interested in this known child abductor and murderer, and the Express have just assumed that they might be interested?
Don't you think Op Grange should be interested in him? If not, why not? Do you think it would be better for all concerned if they just assume that because he is German he can't possibly have been in Portugal when Madeleine went missing and not bother investigating further?
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So what are you saying then? That SY are probably not interested in this known child abductor and murderer, and the Express have just assumed that they might be interested?
Don't you think Op Grange should be interested in him? If not, why not? Do you think it would be better for all concerned if they just assume that because he is German he can't possibly have been in Portugal when Madeleine went missing and not bother investigating further?
My post #50. "Provided there are grounds to believe he was in Luz at the appropriate time then the police should ask questions of him".
That's what I said that's what I mean.
As to finding out the movements of an EU citizen in the Schengen Area, where a passport isn't needed, by looking at his passport? Well that is likely to be a fruitless task. Why do you think the press said SY would be asking the Germans to examine his passport ? Maybe he is thought to be involved in a crime over here which would make more sense.
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My post #50. "Provided there are grounds to believe he was in Luz at the appropriate time then the police should ask questions of him".
That's what I said that's what I mean.
As to finding out the movements of an EU citizen in the Schengen Area, where a passport isn't needed, by looking at his passport? Well that is likely to be a fruitless task. Why do you think the press said SY would be asking the Germans to examine his passport ? Maybe he is thought to be involved in a crime over here which would make more sense.
We don't know SY said that
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My post #50. "Provided there are grounds to believe he was in Luz at the appropriate time then the police should ask questions of him".
That's what I said that's what I mean.
As to finding out the movements of an EU citizen in the Schengen Area, where a passport isn't needed, by looking at his passport? Well that is likely to be a fruitless task. Why do you think the press said SY would be asking the Germans to examine his passport ? Maybe he is thought to be involved in a crime over here which would make more sense.
In order to find grounds to believe he was in Luz at the appropriate time they would need to do some investigating into his movements and whereabouts at the time first, wouldn't they? So - are the Met right to pursue this possible line of enquiry or should they assume he's not involved and not bother.
And, if the Met have asked the Germans to examine his passport I guess it's because the Met have no jurisdiction to be examining German citizens' passports.
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In order to find grounds to believe he was in Luz at the appropriate time they would need to do some investigating into his movements and whereabouts at the time first, wouldn't they? So - are the Met right to pursue this possible line of enquiry or should they assume he's not involved and not bother.
And, if the Met have asked the Germans to examine his passport I guess it's because the Met have no jurisdiction to be examining German citizens' passports.
Furthermore, they have to check that the name on his passport is the name that he is known by.
We have already highlighted the case of Roderick Robinson/MacDonald/Whatever & his freedom of movement between the UK, Europe, Australia & Asia.
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Pretty difficult to prove where he was unless someone can testify to his whereabouts in May 07
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Pretty difficult to prove where he was unless someone can testify to his whereabouts in May 07
I should think there are other ways - social media trail, phone records, bank withdrawals, etc.
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I should think there are other ways - social media trail, phone records, bank withdrawals, etc.
True if these things were used. Any idea how long back these sorts of records are kept ?
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True if these things were used. Any idea how long back these sorts of records are kept ?
Well, let's say he had a Facebook page and posted a picture of himself sat at a bar in Portugal in 2007 - that would still be there, unless he had had the presence of mind to delete it. Phone records I don't know, but bank records should still be accessible.
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Well, let's say he had a Facebook page and posted a picture of himself sat at a bar in Portugal in 2007 - that would still be there, unless he had had the presence of mind to delete it. Phone records I don't know, but bank records should still be accessible.
I guess that would appear conclusive, as would one of him elsewhere at that time. Although I believe it has been found possible to change the dates on these sites, so might not be too reliable.
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I guess that would appear conclusive, as would one of him elsewhere at that time. Although I believe it has been found possible to change the dates on these sites, so might not be too reliable.
No, I don't think it is possible, it would be far simpler to delete the picture altogether.
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I should think there are other ways - social media trail, phone records, bank withdrawals, etc.
Phone records is good, always assuming they know what his phone number was 8.5 years ago. Not from the phone company records (long gone), but from the phone traffic in OG possession. Just as long as they know his number. Can anyone remember their mobile number from 8.5 years ago? Or how about a simpler question. How many times have you changes your phone number in that period?
Bank records, dunno. UK banks are required by the Data Protection Act to delete data in a timely manner, and 8.5 years exceeds that. I worked in one and going back 3 years was a no-no. (And I am aware the tax authorities can challenge returns up to 7 years old.)
Would Germany have kept bank withdrawals for 8.5 years? I am inclined to think not, though I cannot support that with evidence.
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Phone records is good, always assuming they know what his phone number was 8.5 years ago. Not from the phone company records (long gone), but from the phone traffic in OG possession. Just as long as they know his number. Can anyone remember their mobile number from 8.5 years ago? Or how about a simpler question. How many times have you changes your phone number in that period?
Bank records, dunno. UK banks are required by the Data Protection Act to delete data in a timely manner, and 8.5 years exceeds that. I worked in one and going back 3 years was a no-no. (And I am aware the tax authorities can challenge returns up to 7 years old.)
Would Germany have kept bank withdrawals for 8.5 years? I am inclined to think not, though I cannot support that with evidence.
According to this consumer forum thread, some banks have statement records going back to the early 90s when computerisation was introduced.
http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?32853-How-long-does-your-bank-keep-statements
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According to this consumer forum thread, some banks have statement records going back to the early 90s when computerisation was introduced.
http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?32853-How-long-does-your-bank-keep-statements
I do personal online banking & have just easily accessed my 2007 statements.
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Is it a common thing for paedophiles to change their gender preference??
If not, then I would hazard a guess this creature is not high on the police radar in this case though not totally of no interest
Do police follow the activities of any known or unknown/to be found offender in the thousands? Just because of a single factor? I doubt it very much. They narrow it down. So what is the red flag here? And why?
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Ian Brady raped and killed boys and girls, I believe.
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In order to find grounds to believe he was in Luz at the appropriate time they would need to do some investigating into his movements and whereabouts at the time first, wouldn't they? So - are the Met right to pursue this possible line of enquiry or should they assume he's not involved and not bother.
And, if the Met have asked the Germans to examine his passport I guess it's because the Met have no jurisdiction to be examining German citizens' passports.
You are getting there slowly. Now in a zone where a passport is not required to travel what useful travel information will be obtained looking at a passport ?
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You are getting there slowly. Now in a zone where a passport is not required to travel what useful travel information will be obtained looking at a passport ?
At least you now agree that the investigating has to come first, in order to find the grounds to put the man in the right place at the right time. One is tempted to remark that you are getting there slowly, but that would be rather patronizing and rude wouldn't it?
As for your question, I doubt that simply looking at a passport would reveal much, but examining the scanned details held on the microchip might shed some light, I really don't know, not being an expert on such matters, you are no doubt far more learned on the subject than me.
ETA: do we know for certain that you can travel from Germany to Portugal and back again by any means and never have your passport scanned?
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We don't know SY said that
I didn't say they did; quite the opposite in fact if you back through the posts. Only the Express "expected" SY would.
Some on here seem to have taken expected to, to = did.
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At least you now agree that the investigating has to come first, in order to find the grounds to put the man in the right place at the right time. One is tempted to remark that you are getting there slowly, but that would be rather patronizing and rude wouldn't it?
As for your question, I doubt that simply looking at a passport would reveal much, but examining the scanned details held on the microchip might shed some light, I really don't know, not being an expert on such matters, you are no doubt far more learned on the subject than me.
ETA: do we know for certain that you can travel from Germany to Portugal and back again by any means and never have your passport scanned?
"If you are an EU national , you do not need to show your national ID card or passport when you are travelling from one border-free Schengen EU country to another".
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Ian Brady raped and killed boys and girls, I believe.
Thats not what I asked
I dont think he counts here as his general aim was psychotic sadism and murder, not paedophilia
You do have to ask yourself though how the Mccanns feel or think when they confidently state there is not a shred of evidence if harm if UK police are investigating on these lines...mostly..what happened to the investigations into loving chldless couples? did the thiusands of them in europe get investigated?
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Thats not what I asked
I dont think he counts here as his general aim was psychotic sadism and murder, not paedophilia
You do have to ask yourself though how the Mccanns feel or think when they confidently state there is not a shred of evidence if harm if UK police are investigating on these lines...mostly..what happened to the investigations into loving chldless couples? did the thiusands of them in europe get investigated?
because these things are possible...there is no strong evidence maddie is dead....but she probably is IMO
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"If you are an EU national , you do not need to show your national ID card or passport when you are travelling from one border-free Schengen EU country to another".
Fair enough, then I can see no point in the police checking this man's passport to see if he has ever travelled to Portugal.
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Fair enough, then I can see no point in the police checking this man's passport to see if he has ever travelled to Portugal.
which of course means we don't know if he ever travelled to portugal
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If anyone is using this German case to claim that abduction was likely in PDL, they should note that this was opportunistic abduction from a public place in a moment when the child was not watched by parents. So the equivalent in PDL would be MWT theory opportunistic abduction from street after wandering out an unlocked door. Not preplanned abduction from bed.
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If anyone is using this German case to claim that abduction was likely in PDL, they should note that this was opportunistic abduction from a public place in a moment when the child was not watched by parents. So the equivalent in PDL would be MWT theory opportunistic abduction from street after wandering out an unlocked door. Not preplanned abduction from bed.
This man appears to have been responsible for the deaths of two small boys and may well be responsible for the disappearance of more children.
It is right and proper that the German police investigate his activities wherever and whatever those may be.
You cannot be the self appointed arbitrator of whatever may or may not come from that for the simple reason that like the rest of us ... you can only speculate.