Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?

[Brietta]

That's the point. They had no way of detecting if anything was wrong and therefore the distance away had no bearing on them looking out for their children's well being.

Similar situation to the parents who slept through their children being assaulted.  They had no idea anything was amiss.

[jassi]

Similar situation to the parents who slept through their children being assaulted.  They had no idea anything was amiss.

Indeed, but in their case, the parents had done everything in their power to ensure the safety of their children.  The same cannot be said of the McCanns.

[ShiningInLuz]

That's the point. They had no way of detecting if anything was wrong and therefore the distance away had no bearing on them looking out for their children's well being.

Hmm.  If an abductor had entered the Payne's apartment, without breaking in so not making a significant noise, had taken a child and at this point something registered on the baby monitor, what would have been the outcome?

Unless the Payne's immediately thought "there's a stranger inside the flat" thereby sparking a rush to return, I make it one of two options.  1 Return at a normal pace.  2 Sit for a bit longer to see if things go quiet again.

In either of these scenarios, an abductor had the head start needed to make it to the car park of block 4, and be out of the visual interest zone of someone prioritising a check in block 5.

Even if the Payne's thought 'stranger' and rushed, the chances are an abductor would succeed in getting away.

You need to have a noisy entrance to shift the odds in favour of the Paynes i.e. a proper break-in.

[jassi]

In which case, the whole group's child care arrangements were rubbish.

[ShiningInLuz]

In which case, the whole group's child care arrangements were rubbish.

I had been thinking about this in terms of the culpability of the 4 families making up the T9, and concluded, IMO, the order was as follows.
McCanns = worst, as on top of distance the patio door was unlocked.  (Note - my 'favourite' theorem was that a key was used, but I cannot prove it.)
Oldfields and JT/ROB next - distance, but no open patio door.
Payne's = slightly better, due to working baby monitor, though not perfect.

However, assuming that it was an abduction, then I cannot blame anyone for not planning against such a possibility. (Having lived here for a few years, and with grandchildren around Madeleine's age, we do not do abduction risk assessment.)

This makes a realistic test the simple safety of the children, and I think most posters have expressed their view on that.

[slartibartfast]

I had been thinking about this in terms of the culpability of the 4 families making up the T9, and concluded, IMO, the order was as follows.
McCanns = worst, as on top of distance the patio door was unlocked.  (Note - my 'favourite' theorem was that a key was used, but I cannot prove it.)
Oldfields and JT/ROB next - distance, but no open patio door.
Payne's = slightly better, due to working baby monitor, though not perfect.

However, assuming that it was an abduction, then I cannot blame anyone for not planning against such a possibility. (Having lived here for a few years, and with grandchildren around Madeleine's age, we do not do abduction risk assessment.)

This makes a realistic test the simple safety of the children, and I think most posters have expressed their view on that.

I assume you do a H&S assessment?

[pegasus]

I had been thinking about this in terms of the culpability of the 4 families making up the T9, and concluded, IMO, the order was as follows.
McCanns = worst, as on top of distance the patio door was unlocked.  (Note - my 'favourite' theorem was that a key was used, but I cannot prove it.)
Oldfields and JT/ROB next - distance, but no open patio door.
Payne's = slightly better, due to working baby monitor, though not perfect.

However, assuming that it was an abduction, then I cannot blame anyone for not planning against such a possibility. (Having lived here for a few years, and with grandchildren around Madeleine's age, we do not do abduction risk assessment.)

This makes a realistic test the simple safety of the children, and I think most posters have expressed their view on that.

I've just done an H&S assesment for leaving kids that age home alone and it is convincing  - it makes me really annoyed at those paid PR/legal types who sat at that table and said it was ok.

[Brietta]

I've just done an H&S assesment for leaving kids that age home alone and it is convincing  - it makes me really annoyed at those paid PR/legal types who sat at that table and said it was ok.

They may have been lulled into a false sense of security at the time ... but hindsight being the exact science it is ... which one of them would say now that it is OK?

[pegasus]

They may have been lulled into a false sense of security at the time ... but hindsight being the exact science it is ... which one of them would say now that it is OK?

Yes but that is no excuse for those PR/legal types afterwards with full benefit of hindsight to sit at that table and spout such rubbish as "that's responsible" or "I would have done the same".

[Brietta]

Yes but that is no excuse for those PR/legal types afterwards with full benefit of hindsight to sit at that table and spout such rubbish as "that's responsible" or "I would have done the same".

I do not know who these PR/legal types to whom you refer are.  A cite would be helpful.

There are numerous occasions when the Drs McCann have accepted full responsibility starting on the night Madeleine was taken when Kate was reported to have been screaming that they had let Madeleine down.

One wonders why the perpetrator/s of the crime are never mentioned in this blame game.

[pegasus]

I do not know who these PR/legal types to whom you refer are.  A cite would be helpful. ...(snip)

It's easy enough to read who early PR/legal types were and the exact words they said Brietta and I disagree with their opinions, in fact I don't think they were genuine opinions.

[pegasus]

(snip) ... There are numerous occasions when the Drs McCann have accepted full responsibility starting on the night Madeleine was taken when Kate was reported to have been screaming that they had let Madeleine down. ...(snip)

But never absolute Brietta - there is always a legal disclaimer tagged on, like "however we have been assured that..." unless you have a cite without a disclaimer?

[Brietta]

It's easy enough to read who early PR/legal types were and the exact words they said Brietta and I disagree with their opinions, in fact I don't think they were genuine opinions.

No cite then?

[Brietta]

But never absolute Brietta - there is always a legal disclaimer tagged on, like "however we have been assured that..." unless you have a cite without a disclaimer?

What do you class as a disclaimer?
The fact that they were lulled into a false sense of security brought about by the ambience of Luz and made entirely wrong choices as a result?
You may not wish to concede that they will regret their actions every single day for the rest of their lives ... that is not the way I see it.

**Snip

Heartbroken mum Kate McCann quietly sobs as she speaks for the first time of her guilt about leaving little daughter Madeleine alone the night she was snatched. "I feel desperately sorry to her that we weren't there," she says.
 
"Every hour now, I still ask myself, 'Why did I think that was safe?' But it did feel safe and so right. I do feel regret. I've gone through all my life and said I never want to have any regrets, but you can't not regret something like that."
 
Speaking without her husband Gerry at her side for the first time, Kate, 38, reveals how she is haunted by the unbearable regret that she wasn't there to protect her daughter.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/4aug7/SUNDAY_MIRROR_05_08_07.htm

[pegasus]

No cite then?

"Your child care was well within the ..."