Moving door - 9:05 check

[Innominate]

Gerry McCann:

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-ARGUIDO.htm

---- When asked about the time he went to check the children on the night of Madeleine's disappearance, he states remembering that he did it, according to his watch, around 21:04. He remembers that once inside the apartment he thought strange only the fact of the door to the children's room being slightly more open than how the defendant had left it when he and Kate left for dinner. However, he puts the hypothesis of  [proposes; suggests] it having been Madeleine opening that door after having woken and having got up, possibly to go to her parents' room. On this occasion the three children were lying in their beds and asleep, he is sure of that. Moreover, he says that with respect to Madeleine she was in the same position in which he had left her at the beginning of the night. Madeleine was lying down on her left side, she was completely uncovered, that is, lying on top of the covers, with the soft toy and the blanket, both pink, next to her head, not knowing if they were placed in the position in which one can see them in the photograph attached to the files.

Kate McCann:

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN_ARGUIDO.htm

After Gerry arrived the children went to wash their teeth and she then read them another story, this time all four of them sitting on Madeleine's bed. She thinks that Gerry entered the room, but does not recall him sitting on the bed. During the story Madeleine was lying on the pillow, alert and paying attention to the story. After both twins kissed Madeleine, she thinks that Gerry was in the room, and each (Kate and Gerry) placed a twin in its crib at the same time, between Madeleine's bed and the bed next to the window. They also kissed Madeleine, who was lying down. She was under the covers, she thinks because she was a bit cold. She normally clutched the soft toy and if she wasn't holding it then it was next to her, on the left. She remained lying down on her left side, with the soft toy and a pink blanket, to cover her. The twins were laid down on their backs, covered with open weave blankets. She says that she doesn't know if the children were in the same positions when they left the apartment.

---

I agree with Gerry that Madeleine awoke and left the room, moving the door. IMO she then returned to bed, lying on top of the covers (this is not conclusive because she could have altered her position without leaving the room)

I do not believe there was an abductor in the apartment at the time of the 9:05 check.
If an abductor had entered the apartment they would have had to do so by the sliding door or front door, because Gerry checked and the window was not open.
I do not see why an abductor would then open the window and blinds, perhaps drawing attention to themselves, when they could leave by the front door, or possibly the sliding door.

All other opinions welcome.

[Robittybob1]

I can sort of agree.  There was Kate's check at 7:30, and Gerry's check at 8:30 just before they left.  Obviously she could have moved between 7:30 and 8:30 but was found in the same position at 9:05.
Did she get up between 8:30 and 9:05?  Did someone get her up?  Who knows?  But what I do find (IMO) is that there are varying descriptions of how Gerry did that 9:05 check.
Does he go into the room? Did he turn on the light?  Why does he focus on Madeleine and not all 3 kids?  There is a part were are not being told IMO.

[pathfinder73]

Moreover, he says that with respect to Madeleine she was in the same position in which he had left her at the beginning of the night.  http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-ARGUIDO.htm

Same position at the beginning of the night and when he checked. No change.

[Miss Taken Identity]

Moreover, he says that with respect to Madeleine she was in the same position in which he had left her at the beginning of the night.  http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-ARGUIDO.htm

Same position at the beginning of the night and when he checked. No change.

Yeah the devil is in the detail. That is a good theory Qwerty. However I disagree only on the basis that there is no evidence Gerry did have a physical check. There is no independant witness seeing Madeliene  from the time Kate took the children back to the apartment. There is no independant witness to state they saw Madeliene alive just after the parents left for the bar.  This in my opinion is a long time not to physically check on the children, and elongates the time frame for a 'missing' Maddie?

I would want to interview the 'burglars' offering immunity if they said they saw anything suspicious other than theor own activity that evening. They may have seen something and not thought anything about it.

However, 1.5 Mill as a reward should open many  mouths!

[jassi]

Yeah the devil is in the detail. That is a good theory Qwerty. However I disagree only on the basis that there is no evidence Gerry did have a physical check. There is no independant witness seeing Madeliene  from the time Kate took the children back to the apartment. There is no independant witness to state they saw Madeliene alive just after the parents left for the bar.  This in my opinion is a long time not to physically check on the children, and elongates the time frame for a 'missing' Maddie?

I would want to interview the 'burglars' offering immunity if they said they saw anything suspicious other than theor own activity that evening. They may have seen something and not thought anything about it.

However, 1.5 Mill as a reward should open many  mouths!

Alternatively they may never have been there in the first place.

[Miss Taken Identity]

Alternatively they may never have been there in the first place.

.
Indeed Jassi. I should retype.

  IF they were in the vicinity I would be interested if they saw anything suspicious.

It is not unheard of that Police do deals with petty criminals to catch bigger more dangerous ones. That is the point I was trying to make. I was not meaning to implying they were commiting crimes at the time.

Apologies.

[pathfinder73]

By 21.05, GERALD went see his children, and about 10 minutes later JANE left before GM had returned.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RACHAEL-OLDFIELD-11-MAY07.htm

And almost I think as soon after Dave and Fi arrived Gerry went to do his check, because they’d already been there since sort of half past eight, so, you know, sort of like it was half an hour, a half an hour check for them.  So he, yeah, he, he went off to his check and he was longer than a bit, because I can remember Kate sort of saying ‘Oh bet he’s put the footy on’, because I think there was a football match that night and she sort of said ‘Oh I think he’s probably’, erm, you know, ‘got side tracked and put the telly on and catch up on the score’, so he was gone a bit longer than normal.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.htm

Long check for Gerry before Jane left the table and said she saw him talking to Jez. No wonder they thought he was watching footy on tv but what was he really doing  &%+((£

[Brietta]

By 21.05, GERALD went see his children, and about 10 minutes later JANE left before GM had returned.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RACHAEL-OLDFIELD-11-MAY07.htm

And almost I think as soon after Dave and Fi arrived Gerry went to do his check, because they’d already been there since sort of half past eight, so, you know, sort of like it was half an hour, a half an hour check for them.  So he, yeah, he, he went off to his check and he was longer than a bit, because I can remember Kate sort of saying ‘Oh bet he’s put the footy on’, because I think there was a football match that night and she sort of said ‘Oh I think he’s probably’, erm, you know, ‘got side tracked and put the telly on and catch up on the score’, so he was gone a bit longer than normal.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.htm

Long check for Gerry before Jane left the table and said she saw him talking to Jez. No wonder they thought he was watching footy on tv but what was he really doing  &%+((£

Exactly what he said he was doing.

[pathfinder73]

Let's see what he said:

"He adds that he never entered any other part of the residence [his bedroom or the kitchen] where he was for only two or three minutes." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm

2 or 3 minutes is NOT 10 minutes before Jane left the table thinking he was watching football being so long when he wasn't.

Jane leaves the table and then claims to have seen Gerry and Jez in conversation.

"The conversation with Gerry lasted for about three minutes during which Gerry was chatty and in his normal self. Jeremy then made his way back to his apartment."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY_BRIGET.htm

[Innominate]

My opinion is that it is unlikely that an abductor was in the apartment at the same time as Gerry McCann. In my opinion, a planned abduction should have been over in a few minutes.

In general, I think the events of the evening (including events after the discovery that Madeleine was missing) do make sense if you are willing to take a view on certain aspects of the case, bearing in mind that no one can actually know exactly what happened, apart from any third party who may have been involved.

I believe it is entirely possible that Madeleine was abducted from the apartment, even though no forensic evidence has been found to confirm this.

Alternatively, I believe that Danny Collin's view that Madeleine exited the apartment is also possible. This would mean that it is likely that a third party became involved because Madeleine has not been found. I have not read Danny Collin's book in detail and I'm sure there is much to disagree with, but it is a plausible theory in my opinion.

If Madeleine had wandered on previous occasions as Danny Collin's seems to believe then this would undermine the sniffer/tracker dog evidence about the direction Madeleine took.

I'm going to take a break from the case until Operation Grange winds up.

All the best.

[pathfinder73]

Witness Statement

Rachel Mampilly

Date: 2007-05-15

When they arrived at the restaurant at 20.45 the McCann couple was already there.

They were talking to a couple they knew from tennis, whose name she cannot remember. Jane was also there but she was not talking to them. The Payne family and Dianne arrived just after 21.00. Matthew bumped into them as he had gone to the apartment, but he did not enter, he just listened outside to see if there was any noise. He did the same at the Tanner and McCann apartments.

The window shutters of the McCann's apartments were closed. The patio door that they used to enter the apartment also had its shutter closed. In order to enter they had to raise the shutter.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN.htm
At about 21.05 the witness came to the Club, entered the room using his respective key, the door being locked, went to his children's bedroom and checked that the twins were fine, as was Madeleine.

At about 21.30 his friend Matt (member of the group) went to the apartment, where his children were and on his way went to the witness' apartment, entering by means of a glass sliding door that was always unlocked.

Why did Gerry say he used his key to enter when he says the patio door is always unlocked?

If Gerry used his key to enter then the obvious answer is the patio door (nearest side) with shutters down according to Rachel was in fact locked and only unlocked and shutter raised (Matt didn't say he had to raise shutters to enter) when Gerry left the apartment before meeting Jez. So now the patio door is unlocked for the next checker who was supposed to be his wife at 9:30.

Shutters Closed i.e. down according to Rachel


Shutters Open i.e. raised when Matt entered

[Robittybob1]

Witness Statement

Rachel Mampilly

Date: 2007-05-15

When they arrived at the restaurant at 20.45 the McCann couple was already there.

They were talking to a couple they knew from tennis, whose name she cannot remember. Jane was also there but she was not talking to them. The Payne family and Dianne arrived just after 21.00. Matthew bumped into them as he had gone to the apartment, but he did not enter, he just listened outside to see if there was any noise. He did the same at the Tanner and McCann apartments.

The window shutters of the McCann's apartments were closed. The patio door that they used to enter the apartment also had its shutter closed. In order to enter they had to raise the shutter.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN.htm
At about 21.05 the witness came to the Club, entered the room using his respective key, the door being locked, went to his children's bedroom and checked that the twins were fine, as was Madeleine.

At about 21.30 his friend Matt (member of the group) went to the apartment, where his children were and on his way went to the witness' apartment, entering by means of a glass sliding door that was always unlocked.

Why did Gerry say he used his key to enter when he says the patio door is always unlocked?

If Gerry used his key to enter then the obvious answer is the patio door (nearest side) with shutters down according to Rachel was in fact locked and only unlocked and shutter raised (Matt didn't say he had to raise shutters to enter) when Gerry left the apartment before meeting Jez. So now the patio door is unlocked for the next checker who was supposed to be his wife at 9:30.

Shutters Closed i.e. down according to Rachel


Shutters Open i.e. raised when Matt entered

Rachel didn't know what she was talking about IMO.

[pathfinder73]

Rachel didn't know what she was talking about IMO.

That's a question for her to answer as she was there not you.

[Robittybob1]

That's a question for her to answer as she was there not you.

Did she do a check?
Why is she the only one trying to say these patio shutters were down?

[pathfinder73]

Did she do a check?
Why is she the only one trying to say these patio shutters were down?

The Oldfield's passed 5A before arriving at the tapas at 8:45. You could see shutters down if they were from the tapas bar. So it's a question for Rachel to answer. Why is that in her statement?