The car searches in the Maddie case.

[Innominate]

I found this list of vehicles that were 'searched' by the dogs:

Vehicles
   
Vehicle 1: Blue Opel Corsa*- hire car (James Gorrod)
Vehicle 2: Fiat Punto (Ralph Eveleigh – Murat's uncle)
Vehicle 3: Peugot 205 (Robert Murat)
Vehicle 4: Renault Scenic - hire car (The McCanns)
Vehicle 5: Skoda Fabia (Michaela Walczuch)
Vehicle 6: Volkswagen Transporter (Jenny Murat)
Vehicle 7: Nissan Patrol (Luís António)
Vehicle 8: Volkswagen Passat (Luís António)
Vehicle 9: Audi A4 (Segei Malinka)
Vehicle 10: Renault Kangoo (Luís António)

---

If this list is accurate then there would appear to be a potential problem.

I thought the cars were independent apart from the McCann hired car.

If they are all cars of potential suspects then is there a risk of cross contamination?

For instance, who drove the cars into the car park - wouldn't they handle key fobs?

Were all the key fobs tested?

Again, I've no view on the case. I'm just interested in the evidence.

25

[ferryman]

I found this list of vehicles that were 'searched' by the dogs:

Vehicles
   
Vehicle 1: Blue Opel Corsa*- hire car (James Gorrod)
Vehicle 2: Fiat Punto (Ralph Eveleigh – Murat's uncle)
Vehicle 3: Peugot 205 (Robert Murat)
Vehicle 4: Renault Scenic - hire car (The McCanns)
Vehicle 5: Skoda Fabia (Michaela Walczuch)
Vehicle 6: Volkswagen Transporter (Jenny Murat)
Vehicle 7: Nissan Patrol (Luís António)
Vehicle 8: Volkswagen Passat (Luís António)
Vehicle 9: Audi A4 (Segei Malinka)
Vehicle 10: Renault Kangoo (Luís António)

---

If this list is accurate then there would appear to be a potential problem.

I thought the cars were independent apart from the McCann hired car.

If they are all cars of potential suspects then is there a risk of cross contamination?

For instance, who drove the cars into the car park - wouldn't they handle key fobs?

Were all the key fobs tested?

Again, I've no view on the case. I'm just interested in the evidence.

Mark Harrison recommended, only, that (sic) all vehicles owned or driven by Robert Murat should be inspected.

One of those never made it, because the PJ crashed it driving it the garage where the inspection took place.

Why Grime supposed Madeleine's blood might be found on the ignition key of a vehicle hired 3 weeks after she vanisned, heaven only knows.

[misty]

I found this list of vehicles that were 'searched' by the dogs:

Vehicles
   
Vehicle 1: Blue Opel Corsa*- hire car (James Gorrod)
Vehicle 2: Fiat Punto (Ralph Eveleigh – Murat's uncle)
Vehicle 3: Peugot 205 (Robert Murat)
Vehicle 4: Renault Scenic - hire car (The McCanns)
Vehicle 5: Skoda Fabia (Michaela Walczuch)
Vehicle 6: Volkswagen Transporter (Jenny Murat)
Vehicle 7: Nissan Patrol (Luís António)
Vehicle 8: Volkswagen Passat (Luís António)
Vehicle 9: Audi A4 (Segei Malinka)
Vehicle 10: Renault Kangoo (Luís António)

---

If this list is accurate then there would appear to be a potential problem.

I thought the cars were independent apart from the McCann hired car.

If they are all cars of potential suspects then is there a risk of cross contamination?

For instance, who drove the cars into the car park - wouldn't they handle key fobs?

Were all the key fobs tested?

Again, I've no view on the case. I'm just interested in the evidence.

You have raised some good points. PJ officers drove vehicles 4 & 6 to the underground car park for inspection, that much we do know. I've no idea regarding the method of transportation of the other 8. The Hyundai Getz hired by Murat, which was on the original warrant, did not get tested for some unknown reason.
The cadaver dog did not examine the inside of any of the 10 vehicles on the list. We have no idea if the keys/key fobs were inside any vehicle other than the Scenic & there is no record of them having been tested. I have always been of the opinion that if the key fob of the Scenic was contaminated by cadaverine then there would have been cross-contamination on the door handle at the very least, followed by the steering wheel, gear stick & other controls handled.

[ferryman]

You have raised some good points. PJ officers drove vehicles 4 & 6 to the underground car park for inspection, that much we do know. I've no idea regarding the method of transportation of the other 8. The Hyundai Getz hired by Murat, which was on the original warrant, did not get tested for some unknown reason.
The cadaver dog did not examine the inside of any of the 10 vehicles on the list. We have no idea if the keys/key fobs were inside any vehicle other than the Scenic & there is no record of them having been tested. I have always been of the opinion that if the key fob of the Scenic was contaminated by cadaverine then there would have been cross-contamination on the door handle at the very least, followed by the steering wheel, gear stick & other controls handled.

In respect of the part I highlight, the reason is known.

The PJ crashed the vehicle driving it to the garage.

[misty]

In respect of the part I highlight, the reason is known.

The PJ crashed the vehicle driving it to the garage.

It was Murat's VW they crashed, not the rented Getz.

[ferryman]

It was Murat's VW they crashed, not the rented Getz.

Ah, OK.

I stand corrected.

[Innominate]

You have raised some good points. PJ officers drove vehicles 4 & 6 to the underground car park for inspection, that much we do know. I've no idea regarding the method of transportation of the other 8. The Hyundai Getz hired by Murat, which was on the original warrant, did not get tested for some unknown reason.
The cadaver dog did not examine the inside of any of the 10 vehicles on the list. We have no idea if the keys/key fobs were inside any vehicle other than the Scenic & there is no record of them having been tested. I have always been of the opinion that if the key fob of the Scenic was contaminated by cadaverine then there would have been cross-contamination on the door handle at the very least, followed by the steering wheel, gear stick & other controls handled.

I don't understand why they did not examine the inside of the vehicles - to a layperson it would seem a better check that relying on leaking door seals.

If they didn't test the Hyundai then that would appear to be bizarre considering they tested the other cars.

I guess the dogs go for the strongest scent so I'm not sure you could expect them to signal every site of contamination - but that would be a question for an expert.

The risk with the way they did the search was cross contamination, and the possibility of false negatives once they thought they had an alert on an earlier car. Were they diligent with the other checks? It is not really clear.

All IMO.

[misty]

I don't understand why they did not examine the inside of the vehicles - to a layperson it would seem a better check that relying on leaking door seals.

If they didn't test the Hyundai then that would appear to be bizarre considering they tested the other cars.

I guess the dogs go for the strongest scent so I'm not sure you could expect them to signal every site of contamination - but that would be a question for an expert.

The risk with the way they did the search was cross contamination, and the possibility of false negatives once they thought they had an alert on an earlier car. Were they diligent with the other checks? It is not really clear.

All IMO.

In another case involving Grime & his cadaver dog at the time, the dog was allowed inside the suspect's vehicle.
http://madeleinemccann.org/blog/2014/04/20/bianca-jones-trial-of-dandre-lane/
"Tom Wait: [voice over] The father of missing two-year-old Bianca Jones maintains his daughter was alive when he was carjacked in this Mercury Marquis. He says the man who stole his car made off with it while his daughter was in the back seat but Action News has learned a cadaver dog, which is trained to smell human remains, hit on or near the spot of Bianca’s car seat inside the vehicle. That hit indicates the dog smelled signs of human decomposition and this was not the only spot the cadaver dog had a reaction.Tom Wait: [voice over] The father of missing two-year-old Bianca Jones maintains his daughter was alive when he was carjacked in this Mercury Marquis. He says the man who stole his car made off with it while his daughter was in the back seat but Action News has learned a cadaver dog, which is trained to smell human remains, hit on or near the spot of Bianca’s car seat inside the vehicle. That hit indicates the dog smelled signs of human decomposition and this was not the only spot the cadaver dog had a reaction."

I will try to find out if the vehicle was in a "line up" & also if there are any similar situations prior to 2007.

IMO there was no due diligence shown regarding the examination of the other 9 vehicles in the underground car park - the dog was rushed through, despite being more interested in the vicinity of the Skoda Fabia.
The Getz was examined in May by Portuguese S&R dogs at the Murat premises but they would not have been trained to alert to cadaver odour.

[misty]

http://www.policek9.com/Fleck/Cadaver%20Dogs.pdf
*snipped*
People v King (04 Cal. App. Unpub. LEXIS 8280 Court of Appeal California,
Fourth Appellate District, Division One, 2004)
The dog scent evidence was admissible, due to the fact that the dog was trained,
certified and reliable:
• The dog's handler was qualified by training and experience to use the
dog;
• The dog was adequately trained in distinguishing the odor of human
cadaver scent;
• The dog has been found to be reliable in alerting on an area where a
human cadaver scent has existed;
• The vehicle line-up wherein defendant's vehicle was placed and wherein
the canine, Scout, and his handler participated was properly and fairly
conducted;
• The defendant's vehicle and the scent within had not become stale or
contaminated at the time of the line-up.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The last 2 conditions for canine evidence to be permitted in a US court case could be applicable when judging the validity of Eddie's alerts.

[ferryman]

In another case involving Grime & his cadaver dog at the time, the dog was allowed inside the suspect's vehicle.
http://madeleinemccann.org/blog/2014/04/20/bianca-jones-trial-of-dandre-lane/
"Tom Wait: [voice over] The father of missing two-year-old Bianca Jones maintains his daughter was alive when he was carjacked in this Mercury Marquis. He says the man who stole his car made off with it while his daughter was in the back seat but Action News has learned a cadaver dog, which is trained to smell human remains, hit on or near the spot of Bianca’s car seat inside the vehicle. That hit indicates the dog smelled signs of human decomposition and this was not the only spot the cadaver dog had a reaction.Tom Wait: [voice over] The father of missing two-year-old Bianca Jones maintains his daughter was alive when he was carjacked in this Mercury Marquis. He says the man who stole his car made off with it while his daughter was in the back seat but Action News has learned a cadaver dog, which is trained to smell human remains, hit on or near the spot of Bianca’s car seat inside the vehicle. That hit indicates the dog smelled signs of human decomposition and this was not the only spot the cadaver dog had a reaction."

I will try to find out if the vehicle was in a "line up" & also if there are any similar situations prior to 2007.

IMO there was no due diligence shown regarding the examination of the other 9 vehicles in the underground car park - the dog was rushed through, despite being more interested in the vicinity of the Skoda Fabia.
The Getz was examined in May by Portuguese S&R dogs at the Murat premises but they would not have been trained to alert to cadaver odour.

Key point there, though, is that in Bianca Jones case, Grime was working with Morse who (I believe) was not sensitised to blood.

That makes a big difference (I think).

[ferryman]

http://www.policek9.com/Fleck/Cadaver%20Dogs.pdf
*snipped*
People v King (04 Cal. App. Unpub. LEXIS 8280 Court of Appeal California,
Fourth Appellate District, Division One, 2004)
The dog scent evidence was admissible, due to the fact that the dog was trained,
certified and reliable:
• The dog's handler was qualified by training and experience to use the
dog;
• The dog was adequately trained in distinguishing the odor of human
cadaver scent;
• The dog has been found to be reliable in alerting on an area where a
human cadaver scent has existed;
• The vehicle line-up wherein defendant's vehicle was placed and wherein
the canine, Scout, and his handler participated was properly and fairly
conducted;
• The defendant's vehicle and the scent within had not become stale or
contaminated at the time of the line-up.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The last 2 conditions for canine evidence to be permitted in a US court case could be applicable when judging the validity of Eddie's alerts.

I think it may, also, be dependent on a dog not sensitized to blood (as we know Eddie was).

[Mr Gray]

If the alert could be shown to be reliable it would be accepted as evidence
The fact that it isn't can only confirm that it is not reliable

[sadie]

http://www.policek9.com/Fleck/Cadaver%20Dogs.pdf
*snipped*
People v King (04 Cal. App. Unpub. LEXIS 8280 Court of Appeal California,
Fourth Appellate District, Division One, 2004)
The dog scent evidence was admissible, due to the fact that the dog was trained,
certified and reliable:
• The dog's handler was qualified by training and experience to use the
dog;
• The dog was adequately trained in distinguishing the odor of human
cadaver scent;
• The dog has been found to be reliable in alerting on an area where a
human cadaver scent has existed;
• The vehicle line-up wherein defendant's vehicle was placed and wherein
the canine, Scout, and his handler participated was properly and fairly
conducted;
-snip-.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The last 2 conditions for canine evidence to be permitted in a US court case could be applicable when judging the validity of Eddie's alerts.

The words that stand out tio me are underlined


Eddie was repeatedly commanded, in a loud ordering voice and with loud repeated raps, to return to The Mccann hire car.   No other car received ANY such attention.


Was the search properly and fairly conducted? ... or was it heavily biased?

[stephen25000]

The words that stand out tio me are underlined


Eddie was repeatedly commanded, in a loud ordering voice and with loud repeated raps, to return to The Mccann hire car.   No other car received ANY such attention.


Was the search properly and fairly conducted? ... or was it heavily biased?

Have you Sadie, watched at first hand/witnessed forensic dogs being handled on site ?

[sadie]

Have you Sadie, watched at first hand/witnessed forensic dogs being handled on site ?

Did Martin Grime keep COMMANDING Eddie back with a loud voice and very loud raps?   .... or did he not?


Did Martin Grime command Eddie back to any other cars?   ..... or did he not ?


Sorry, stephen.
Martin may not have realsed it, but in my book that is biased and unfair.   That is my opinion and I think most people would agree.



And now I must get on with other things