Author Topic: Abduction versus Accident  (Read 31436 times)

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Offline Admin

Abduction versus Accident
« on: July 22, 2013, 04:09:16 PM »
This subject appears to come back time and time again so I have started this new topic to review the facts.

I will first of all state for the record that their is no more evidence to suggest that Madeleine is alive than there is that she is dead.

There is also no evidence to suggest that she died on 3rd May 2007 or any other day for that matter although this is entirely possible.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2013, 10:00:44 AM by Admin »

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Abduction versus Accident
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2013, 07:40:10 AM »
There exists no proof of abduction whatsoever, forensically or otherwise.

Madeleine could have had an accident occurring in the apartment, but blindly accept an abduction.

The bottom line remains the same.

The Mccanns deliberately and repeatedly left their children on their own with infrequent checks which go against all logic, reason and those rules enshrined by the NSPCC.

You represent blind faith in the Mccanns and nothing more, and that leads to other questions.


« Last Edit: July 28, 2013, 09:45:16 AM by Admin »

Offline Chinagirl

Re: Abduction versus Accident
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2013, 08:13:45 AM »
If you are going to imply that Madeleine died having met an accident in the apartment, you have to conclude that her parents concealed ("occulted" as the strange translation has it) her body somehow somewhere, which is a crime.  However, the final report states that no evidence for any crime committed by the parents was found.

We are told that abduction by a stranger is the crime being investigated presently by Scotland Yard, and that the parents are considered not to be suspects or persons of interest.

ETA:  Anne Guedes sent me a PM to point out that I had omitted the word 'not" from the last sentence.  I tried to reply, but she has blocked PMs, so I take this opportunity to say thank you, Anne!   8()-000(
« Last Edit: July 28, 2013, 01:08:05 PM by Chinagirl »
A

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Abduction versus Accident
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2013, 08:17:17 AM »
If you are going to imply that Madeleine died having met an accident in the apartment, you have to conclude that her parents concealed ("occulted" as the strange translation has it) her body somehow somewhere, which is a crime.  However, the final report states that no evidence for any crime committed by the parents was found.

We are told that abduction by a stranger is the crime being investigated presently by Scotland Yard, and that the parents are considered to be suspects or persons of interest.

You are also aware of what the dogs indicated. It wasn't backed up by the forensics, but it doesn't mean it has no value at all.

It comes down to that old adage, Absence of evidence does not mean a crime did not take place, and that I'm fully aware works both ways.

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Abduction versus Accident
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2013, 08:19:53 AM »
From another source................................

'Imagine a scenario:

You and your partner decide to go out for the evening. You arrange for a family friend to babysit for your three infant children.

You have a nice evening and arrive back home some time later to find the place in uproar. It appears that your babysitter decided to meet up with friends in a nearby pub, and has spent the evening there, popping back once to check on the children, with another friend popping in too, half an hour later. The pub is about 70 yards away.

''But how did you get back in?'' you say, aware that you didn't give them a key. It transpires they left a door on the latch. The friend who checked says that he didn't actually see the child who is now missing, so doesn't know whether she was there or not. A second friend says she saw a man carrying a child, but she is unable to say whether it was your child or not. They have all been drinking alcohol. The babysitter says she found a window open, the police can find no sign of forced entry.

Question 1 - Who would you expect the police to regard as suspects?

Some weeks afterwards, the babysitter claims that she thought the other two children might have been drugged, as she had been unable to wake them. You asked what she did about it, and why she didn't tell someone straight away so they could be checked out? She replies that she checked for signs of life.

Question 2 - Who would you expect the police to regard as a suspect?

Some months go by. Police bring in specialist dogs, trained to alert to the smell of human decomposition. They identify this smell in your house and on clothes belonging to the babysitter, recovered from her house. There are, however, no recoverable biological residues to prove what the source of those alerts is. They bring the babysitter in. She refuses to answer any questions.

Question 3 - Who would you expect the police to regard as a suspect?

The police decide there are inconsistencies in the accounts given by the babysitter and her friends and ask them to participate in a reconstruction. They make it quite clear that it requires all of them to co-operate, but the only one they can force is the babysitter.

All the friends, including the one who did the check where he didn't see your child, and the one who saw a child being carried away, refuse to co-operate. Their refusal means the police cannot progress the investigation any further.

Question 4 - Who would you expect the police to regard as suspects?

A year down the line, the police shelve the investigation. They say they have been unable to even show what crime has been committed, let alone find evidence against any individual.

Question 5 - Who do you think the police still regard as suspects, but simply have no evidence to make a case?

Question 6 - Has the babysitter been ''cleared of any involvement''?

(Any similarity between this hypothetical scenario and any actual persons, living or dead, is of course completely accidental) '

Offline gilet

Re: Abduction versus Accident
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2013, 08:42:21 AM »

Therein lies the fatal law in your statements.

'abduction'

Need you and others  be reminded there exists no proof of abduction whatsoever, forensically or otherwise.

You ignore that Madeleine could have  had an accident occurring in the apartment, but blindly accept an abduction.

The bottom line remains the same.

The Mccanns deliberately and repeatedly left their children on their own with infrequent checks which go against all logic, reason and those rules enshrined by the NSPCC.

You represent blind faith in the Mccanns and nothing more, and that leads to other questions.

And therein lies the fatal flaw in your claim.

There exists no proof of the death of Madeleine McCann, whatsoever.

You have misread my post completely. At no time do I accept abduction. I simply say "an abduction would have been more difficult". I am making no statement of fact as you have done. I am simply saying that your statement cannot be proven and therefore is at best speculation and at worst a deliberate lie.

Your incorrect assumption that I "accept an abduction" is a serious flaw in your post.

Another serious flaw in your post is your bizarre and completely wrong idea that there is any evidence of "blind faith in the McCanns in my post". There is no such implication or claim in my post as those reading without blinkers will realise.

Finally, I repeat that my assertion that you are spamming this forum with your off-topic obsession about the McCanns neglecting the children is both tedious and actually against forum rules.

The McCanns have admitted their error of judgement. They are living with the consequences of that. Your constant harping on about this demonstrates a kind of vigilante approach to the case which does not make your posts read like those of a person with a charitable heart or any understanding of the nature of forgiveness and its beneficial both to the individual and to society.

You may or may not be aware that the one specific crime that the McCanns were completely cleared of having been guilty of was in fact "exposicao ou abandono" the Portuguese equivalent of neglect or the worse crime of abandoning a child. I suggest you read the Archival report instead of remaining fixated on your uncharitable and rather sad repetitive chant about something you don't appear to know the truth about.

I would also suggest that your constant disruption of threads with this mantra of yours does not take into account the fact that the legal authorities and the social authorities (with far greater knowledge of the case, the family, etc. than you have), have not in six years made any effort to charge the McCanns.

Perhaps those reading here without blinkers will understand that there probably are good reasons for this lack of charges and those reasons may well be far closer to the legal reasons offered by the Attorney General of Portugal for his decision not to charge rather than some fanciful notions that have been proffered by anti McCanns such as the amazing influence of Clarence Mitchell or the McCanns themselves to control the courts, the media and just about everybody else.

When you explain why there have been no charges (and such would be possible for crimes committed against a UK citizen even when abroad) then your mantra may have meaning or even purpose. Till then, it remains the sad mantra of someone who is showing himself to be both uncharitable and rather vindictive.

Offline Admin

Re: Abduction versus Accident
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2013, 10:03:10 AM »
This is a new thread composed of posts which have been previously moved as being off topic on the triathlon thread. 

Rachel Granada

  • Guest
Re: Abduction versus Accident
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2013, 11:39:44 AM »
To me, the accident-and-covered-up scenario just does not hold water.  We are being expected to believe that in a time=frame of 4.5 hrs Madeleine had a fatal accident, and the McCanns grieved, cleaned up and disposed of her remains so well that they have never been found.  Then went to dinner and behaved normally.  We are being asked to believe that they did all this in 4.5 hours in a foreign country without access to a car.

I just don't believe it.

Offline Albertini

Re: Abduction versus Accident
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2013, 11:50:43 AM »
To me, the accident-and-covered-up scenario just does not hold water.  We are being expected to believe that in a time=frame of 4.5 hrs Madeleine had a fatal accident, and the McCanns grieved, cleaned up and disposed of her remains so well that they have never been found.  Then went to dinner and behaved normally.  We are being asked to believe that they did all this in 4.5 hours in a foreign country without access to a car.

I just don't believe it.

I don't buy this "behaved normally" line.

From another source:

    There is primary source evidence that when required or considered to be necessary the parents, particularly Kate McCann, are extremely skilled at masking their real feelings very successfully even when under enormous emotional and other stress. (Footnote 1)
    This ability to mask, or deaden, the emotional response to the loss of their daughter, on request,was the subject of widespread remark by commentators and observers of the case who had watched their performances on television.(2)
    Had the parents been incapable of masking their emotions effectively then they would have been unable, by definition, to follow the advice they were given.So they have a proven and recorded ability to do so. (3)

And:

    The previously unknown primary source evidence provided by Kate McCann in Madeleine regarding events on August 8 provides a second, quite separate, series of examples of the parents coolly misinforming the media and the public – lying – about their situation while giving no clues in their demeanour to the enormous stress the police had already placed them under and which, away from the public and the cameras, was resulting in despair and hysteria. (4).
    Finally, the parents behaviour after the disappearance cannot be slotted into this defence, although poor Mr Menezes didn't notice. There is no normal template for behaviour in such circumstances that would distinguish it either from acting or from genuine emotional distress at events unknown to us.(5)

(1) The claims by the parents that they were advised to try and conceal their feelings in public are well attested. See Oprah transcript:

'Four days after Madeleine's disappearance, the McCanns held another press conference pleading for their daughter's safe return. Kate remained calm as she spoke, but the tabloids would use her appearance against her, saying her lack of emotion implied guilt. "I'd spent 72 hours crying, and you suddenly almost feel a little bit numb," Kate says. She'd also spoken with a behavioural expert who'd given specific advice on how to act at the press conference, Kate says. "They said, 'It's quite important that you don't show any emotion, because the abductor could get some kind of adverse kick out of it,'" she says. "When you get the feeling that if you do [something] it could be detrimental in some way to your daughter, there's a huge pressure on you to do well."

Though it may have done more harm than good, Kate says she doesn't regret taking the behavioural expert's advice. "It was advice given with the best intention," she says.'

And from Madeleine, page 112:

'In fact I would soon be advised by British police experts to try and stay as calm as possible and not to show any emotion in public, so it was probably no bad thing that my feelings seemed to be temporarily on holiday that day. The thinking behind this advice was that Madeleine's abductor might get some kind of perverted kick pout of my distress and perhaps change his behaviour in some way.'

She adds: 'Of course we were terrified by the implications of this theory. It meant that quite natural actions or expressions of emotion caught on camera could potentially jeopardise Madeleine's safety.'

(2) Googling the subject will produce numerous newspaper examples of how successful their dissimulation was. So successful, indeed, that she was accused of being "emotionless".

(3) Self-evidently they could only have been witnessed dissimulating after advice if they had the innate ability to do so. By (2) above they have it in spades. Clearly it was already there, not grown overnight – and present on May 3 2007.

(4) On pages 210 – 214 of Madeleine Kate McCann describes the events of August 8, which we have cited before. Two days previously their car had been seized by the police. During the interviews the police told Kate McCann outright that they didn't believe her and made serious accusations about her behaviour on May 3 which left her hysterical. To Gerry McCann it was made quite clear that further meetings with them would no longer be as parents of the child but as potential suspects.

Since M/S McCann maintains that until that time she had not seen warning signs of such accusations the shock must have been immense. Yet examination of the television interviews of the period shows the couple effortlessly dissimulating about their situation for a full week after August 8. Leaving aside the point that we now know that their comments that week, like those on the GM blog at the same time (see Gerry McCann's blogs website), are thoroughly dishonest and intentionally misleading without any Portuguese secrecy claims to justify them, they also betray few or no signs of the events in which they had been involved, behaviour startlingly akin to their conduct on and after May 3. In other words they are not just capable of concealing their feelings and acting normally after trauma but demonstrably expert at it.

(5) Self-evidently except to Mr Menezes, the behaviour of the couple after 10PM on May 3 is to be sharply distinguished in its implications. Rolling on the floor and screaming, punching walls, throwing themselves to the ground when the police appear etc. – leaving aside the "masking" effect which such loud and unusual conduct might possess, is not evidence of "normal" behaviour at the hands of an abductor nor does it say anything either way about a person's ability to deceive or dissimulate. And it could result from very different events. Drawing up timelines doesn't strike us as strictly normal under the circumstances either, but that's another story.

Rachel Granada

  • Guest
Re: Abduction versus Accident
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2013, 11:56:39 AM »
I understand that their friends, some of whom know them well, attested that they were there normal selves during dinner, Albertini.

I don't buy that someone could find their child deceased and then go out to dinner, as if nothing had happened, having concealed the remains so well that have never been found.  All in 4.5 hours in a foreign land without access to a car.

Offline Chinagirl

Re: Abduction versus Accident
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2013, 12:11:14 PM »
Albertini, what is the source for your post above about the McCanns' emotional abilities?
A

Offline insider

Re: Abduction versus Accident
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2013, 12:29:54 PM »
I understand that their friends, some of whom know them well, attested that they were there normal selves during dinner, Albertini.

I don't buy that someone could find their child deceased and then go out to dinner, as if nothing had happened, having concealed the remains so well that have never been found.  All in 4.5 hours in a foreign land without access to a car.

Before I go on to reveal what really happened to Madeleine ask yourself was their reactions really normal?  Was their reactions as evidenced by the two Portuguese GNR officers for example conducive with a sudden death or an abduction?
Liars come in all shapes and sizes. No profession is without them.

Offline Heriberto Janosch

Re: Abduction versus Accident
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2013, 12:30:01 PM »
This subject appears to come back time and time again so I have started this new topic to review the facts.

I will first of all state for the record that their is no more evidence to suggest that Madeleine is alive than there is that she is dead.

There is also no evidence to suggest that she died on 3rd May 2007 or any other day for that matter although this is entirely possible.

John, this forum is being back in time ... in Level I, so to say  ?{)(**

Level I: Discussing to demonstrate "McCanns did it", ie, losing time.

Level II: Searching for Madeleine and her abductor (the present level).

And very soon SY will be in Level III: identifying the stranger abductor or how he did it.

It's time to move on to level II at least  ?{)(**

Heri.


Rachel Granada

  • Guest
Re: Abduction versus Accident
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2013, 12:32:11 PM »
Before I go on to reveal what really happened to Madeleine ask yourself was their reactions really normal?  Was their reactions as evidenced by the two Portuguese GNR officers for example conducive with a sudden death or an abduction?

Go on then, reveal what really happened to Madeleine.

Offline insider

Re: Abduction versus Accident
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2013, 12:36:12 PM »
Madeleine is dead Heriberto and the sooner you realise this the better.  There is no possible way a child with her physical characteristics could elude detection for six years.  Let's not kid ourselves.
Liars come in all shapes and sizes. No profession is without them.