Author Topic: Are 'supporters' justified in their vilification of JM?  (Read 10880 times)

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Offline Holly Goodhead

Are 'supporters' justified in their vilification of JM?
« on: September 28, 2017, 02:54:14 PM »
Absolutely not imo.  Although I accept whether JB is guilty or innocent JM comes out of it badly.  Vilifying JM is imo the easy and lazy way for those who are either unable or unwilling to look at the forensic evidence and/or policing and judicial process.   I see the vilification of JM as akin to discovering you have bought rotten eggs and then berating the person at the supermarket check-out for selling them!  Whereas the responsibility clearly lies with the management and ultimately those overseeing the supply chain and producer.   

- According to Ewan Smith, JB's one time lawyer and former CCRC commissioner, the trial judge warned jurors about the reliability of JM's testimony.  He went on to say the silencer sealed JB's fate or words to this effect.  An ITN news clip existed confirming this but it seems it is now unavailable.

- JM was interviewed over many days whilst holed up at a police training college and 'advised' not to speak with anyone including her mother.  She was also without the benefit of any independent legal representation.  This is a just turned 21 year old woman with no previous or criminal connections afaik interviewed over a prolonged period of time by middle-aged experienced male police officers.  A very unhealthy situation imo.   

- DS Jones lied to JB during his police interviews telling JB SC could not have shot her herself twice.  This is not what the pathologist said.  He said he was unable to confirm murder/suicide and it means just that.  It is not for lay people such as DS Jones to override expert opinion with his own interpretation.  If DS Jones went down this road with JM what was she to think?  If pressure was bought to bear by DS Jones suggesting JM knew more than she was letting on with threats of accessory, perverting the course of justice, criminal charges over unrelated offences and ruining her chances of a teaching career she may well have broke. 

- Blaming JM seems pretty lame when I consider the incompetence and negligence by JB's lawyers at trial and 2002 appeal; the bias shown by the trial judge and appeal court judges; incompetence, negligence and possible wrongdoing by staff at FSS and possible wrongdoing by a very small minority of police officers. 

- The four female proseuction witnesses in the case of Stefan Kizsko admitted "lying for a laugh" and all went unpunished.  If JB's conviction is overturned, and there's no doubt in my mind it will be, it is extremely unlikely JM will suffer any consequences even if she retracted her testimony.  She will either maintain her testimony is based on the truth or that she was coerced by the police.

NGB recently said if JB is innocent JM ruined his life.  And yet you never hear NGB criticise the lawyers or judges.  At best he will say 'they expected an acquital' or 'it was their first case and they were time limited'.  But who works on the basis of expecting an acquital?  Sounds a touch arrogant.  When premier league teams play low level teams in the FA cup they always respect the oppostion, turn up on the day and play to win.  And what sort of system allows the new guy or girl on the block to take on a hugely complex case? 
« Last Edit: September 29, 2017, 12:48:07 AM by John »
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline John

Re: Are 'supporters' justified in their vilification of JM?
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2017, 12:54:01 AM »
Giving a 30-page statement is one thing but standing up in a high profile court and being cross-examined is something else altogether.  Julie's evidence to the court was extremely credible, she did not waver even under the pressure of cross examination.  She feared for her future certainly but then any innocent kid in that situation would. Clearly it was explained to her in no uncertain terms what would happen to her if she lied to the court, she was left with no option but to come clean and spill the beans.
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Are 'supporters' justified in their vilification of JM?
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2017, 09:06:07 AM »
Giving a 30-page statement is one thing but standing up in a high profile court and being cross-examined is something else altogether.  Julie's evidence to the court was extremely credible, she did not waver even under the pressure of cross examination.  She feared for her future certainly but then any innocent kid in that situation would. Clearly it was explained to her in no uncertain terms what would happen to her if she lied to the court, she was left with no option but to come clean and spill the beans.

Well as I've previously posted the four 13 year old female prosecution witnesses at Stefan Kiszko's trial later admitted they "lied for a laugh" and "because at the time it was funny".  They were cross-examined by David Waddington QC who went on to become Home Sec.  The trial judge, Sir Hugh Park, praised the girls for bringing Stefan Kiszko to justice.  The girls went unpunished.  David Waddington maintained his position as Home Sec and the trial judge kept his knighthood.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Lesley_Molseed

JM was some 8 years older than the 4 x teenage girls, university educated and trained to present on her teaching course. 

Afaik JM's evidence in chief and cross examination hasn't survived so we don't know exactly how it all played out.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline John

Re: Are 'supporters' justified in their vilification of JM?
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2017, 10:32:04 PM »
Well as I've previously posted the four 13 year old female prosecution witnesses at Stefan Kiszko's trial later admitted they "lied for a laugh" and "because at the time it was funny".  They were cross-examined by David Waddington QC who went on to become Home Sec.  The trial judge, Sir Hugh Park, praised the girls for bringing Stefan Kiszko to justice.  The girls went unpunished.  David Waddington maintained his position as Home Sec and the trial judge kept his knighthood.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Lesley_Molseed

JM was some 8 years older than the 4 x teenage girls, university educated and trained to present on her teaching course. 

Afaik JM's evidence in chief and cross examination hasn't survived so we don't know exactly how it all played out.

Actually we do.  The jury, well at least 10 of them, accepted her evidence at face value and convicted Jeremy Bamber.
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Are 'supporters' justified in their vilification of JM?
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2017, 10:21:23 AM »
Actually we do.  The jury, well at least 10 of them, accepted her evidence at face value and convicted Jeremy Bamber.

The jury's questions to the judge revolved around the blood/silencer evidence (and I believe to a lesser degree they sought clarification on who would benefit from the Bamber estate if JB was found guilty).

The case, like most I guess, was made up of many different aspects and no one has any idea what weight jurors attached to the various aspects as no one is privy to their deliberations.  I am all for trial by jury.  In JB's case it is seems the jurors were very astute and got to the hub of the case ie blood/silencer as evidenced by their questions to the judge.   
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Angelo222

Re: Are 'supporters' justified in their vilification of JM?
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2017, 05:32:23 PM »
I would suggest that if the jury hadn't believed Julie Mugford, JB would not have been convicted.  The only remaining question was of course, had JB been acquitted, would Muggy have been done for perjury?
« Last Edit: September 30, 2017, 05:34:36 PM by Angelo222 »
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Offline [...]

Re: Are 'supporters' justified in their vilification of JM?
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2017, 08:33:02 AM »
I don't really know much about this case, but came across this pdf that maybe of interest to some, i hope i have put it in the right place.

Parliament Transcript re Jermey Bamber.pdf


Apologies if this has already been posted before.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Are 'supporters' justified in their vilification of JM?
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2017, 10:45:47 AM »
I don't really know much about this case, but came across this pdf that maybe of interest to some, i hope i have put it in the right place.

Parliament Transcript re Jermey Bamber.pdf

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_AMpl4jeqWkYjU4ZTFmODYtNzAxOC00MTI3LWE5MmYtODczZTA1MGU3N2M3/view?hl=en_GB

Apologies if this has already been posted before.

Hi Nine.

Thanks for the link but I'm unable to open?  I'm on my phone at present so it might be the device. 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline adam

Re: Are 'supporters' justified in their vilification of JM?
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2017, 10:54:39 AM »
I would suggest that if the jury hadn't believed Julie Mugford, JB would not have been convicted.  The only remaining question was of course, had JB been acquitted, would Muggy have been done for perjury?

In a word 'no'.

People testify all the time for the prosecution. If a person is found 'not guilty', they are not charged with perjury. Otherwise no one would ever testify for the prosecution.

Offline [...]

Re: Are 'supporters' justified in their vilification of JM?
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2017, 11:07:23 AM »
Hi Nine.

Thanks for the link but I'm unable to open?  I'm on my phone at present so it might be the device.

I have attached the pdf to my original post Holly

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Are 'supporters' justified in their vilification of JM?
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2017, 11:35:07 AM »
I have attached the pdf to my original post Holly

Thanks Nine.  I think I may have read this quickly on a previous occasion but it might be worth starting up a thread to sort out the fact from fiction.   
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Are 'supporters' justified in their vilification of JM?
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2017, 12:15:48 PM »
I would suggest that if the jury hadn't believed Julie Mugford, JB would not have been convicted.  The only remaining question was of course, had JB been acquitted, would Muggy have been done for perjury?

The prosecution case against JB was made up of many different aspects as stated in the 2002 appeal:

151. The prosecution relied upon the following areas of evidence:

i) The appellant's expressed dislike of his family;

ii) His speaking of his plans to kill his family and thereafter his confessions to his girlfriend, Julie Mugford;

iii) The finding of his mother's bicycle at Goldhanger;

iv) The appellant's admitted ability to effect covert entry into and exit from the farmhouse and the finding of the hacksaw blade outside the bathroom window. His claim to have entered the house in that way after the first arrest was an attempt to explain these findings;

v) Because on the facts of the case it could only have been the appellant or Sheila Caffell who carried out the killings, the factors below proved they were not the responsibility of the appellant's sister:

a) Although seriously mentally ill, there had been no indication of any deterioration in her mental health in the days before the killings. Neither had she expressed any recent suicidal thoughts and the expert evidence was that she would not have harmed her children or her father;

b) Save for the appellant nobody had seen her use a gun and she had no interest in them. Sheila Caffell also had very poor co-ordination and would not have been capable of loading and operating the rifle nor would she have had the required knowledge to do so;

c) She would not have been able physically to have overcome her father (who was fit, strong and 6' 4" tall) during the struggle which undoubtedly took place before his death in the kitchen;

d) Her hands and feet were clean. They were not blood stained and neither was there any sugar upon them;

e) Hand swabs from her body did not reveal the levels of lead to be expected in somebody who must have re-loaded the magazine of the gun on at least two occasions; and

f) Her clothing was relatively clean and she was not injured in the way that might be expected of somebody involved in a struggle. Her long fingernails were still intact and undamaged.

vi) The sound moderator had on any view been attached to the rifle during the fight with Nevill Bamber in the kitchen. But if Sheila Caffell had committed suicide it must have been removed before she shot herself. The following aspects of the evidence established it was still in place on the gun when the appellant's sister was murdered:

a) The blood grouping analysis proved (on the particular facts of the case) that Sheila Caffell's blood was inside the moderator; and

b) Had the appellant's sister murdered the other members of her family with the moderator attached to the gun and then discovered she could not reach the trigger to kill herself, the moderator would have been found next to her body. There would have been no reason for her to have removed it and returned it to the gun cupboard before going back upstairs to commit suicide in her parents' room.

vii) The appellant's account of the telephone call from his father could be proved to be false for the following reasons:

a) His father was too badly injured to have spoken to anybody;

b) The telephone in the kitchen was not obviously blood stained;

c) As a matter of common sense, Nevill Bamber would have called the police before the appellant;

d) Had the appellant really received such a call, he would have immediately made a 999 call, alerted the farm workers who lived close to the farmhouse and then driven at speed to his parents home; and

e) Instead he had spoken to Julie Mugford before calling the police. When he subsequently contacted the Police, it was not by way of the emergency system.

viii) He stood to inherit considerable sums of money.


I don't think there's anything 'beyond reasonable doubt' in JM's testimony.

I think it is generally accepted in legal circles that the blood/silencer sealed JB's fate which I can understand as taken at face value it is very compelling evidence against JB.  Either the blood in the silencer, which matched SC's blood groups, was deposited there as a result of drawback aka as blowback as claimed by the prosecution or it was fabricated.  IMO JB's defence made a monumental error by arguing SC used the silencer and returned it to the gun cupboard before taking her own life and that the blood represented an intimate mix of NB's and June's.  The big mistake imo was not going on an all out attack on the integrity of the blood and silencer and also underestimating juror's ability to see through the fog.  I've been shocked by what I consider to be the  inadequacies of all those who have defended JB and the various judges.

The only person in the world who knows whether JB is guilty or innocent is JB.  And the only 2 people in the world who know whether JM's testimony is truthful are JM and JB.  Even if JB didn't say a word to JM about murdering his family it wouldn't make JB innocent.  Conversely even if JB said all or some of what JM testified about it wouldn't make JB guilty.  He may have made such comments as bad taste jokes or for effect, to shock etc.

Had the jury found JB not guilty I don't believe there would be any reprecussions for JM.  Why would there be?  It would just have meant they were unable to find JB guilty 'beyond reasonable doubt' based on the collective evidence.

I'm all for trial by jury but with the advent of 21st century forensic science I think it is time to drop lay witness testimony.  All the research shows lay witnesses are unreliable even when it is limited to eye witness testimony only.


Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Are 'supporters' justified in their vilification of JM?
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2017, 12:23:55 PM »
Myster where r thou'?  I'm missing you. Xx
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline adam

Re: Are 'supporters' justified in their vilification of JM?
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2017, 02:06:45 PM »
Supporters have different views on Julie.

JackieD believes Julie wouldn't have identified the twins if Bamber had told her he was involved. Not sure how JackieD knows what a young woman would or would not do in a situation she has never been in herself. However it's certainly her main reason for promoting Bamber's innocence. Even creating a thread addressed to me on this & proposing to make a documentary on Julie. Which is nice.

David does not believe Bamber mentioned Matthew Macdonald to Julie. Suggesting Robert Boutflour & Julie dreamed up MM between them. When Julie & RB were supposed to have engaged with each other while she was with her boyfriend Bamber virtually all the time, no one knows.

Nugs brings up Julie usually in his one line 'question' threads. Julie is a  player in his conspiracy theories which bizarrely include The Sun, who apparently turned down an offer of a big, free exclusive from Bamber.

Kaldin has spent a lot of this week complaining about Julie buying a veil, attending the funeral & staying with Bamber. None of which Kaldin would have done. Again, I don't know how anyone knows what they would have done in Julie's situation. It was also suggested this week that Julie lied about Bamber saying he planned to cycle to WHF. Julie having the idea for this lie after seeing June's bike at Bamber's cottage just before the massacre.

Mike doesn't post about Julie much. Preferring to post mainly about the police

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Are 'supporters' justified in their vilification of JM?
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2017, 10:05:18 PM »
Supporters have different views on Julie.

JackieD believes Julie wouldn't have identified the twins if Bamber had told her he was involved. Not sure how JackieD knows what a young woman would or would not do in a situation she has never been in herself. However it's certainly her main reason for promoting Bamber's innocence. Even creating a thread addressed to me on this & proposing to make a documentary on Julie. Which is nice.

David does not believe Bamber mentioned Matthew Macdonald to Julie. Suggesting Robert Boutflour & Julie dreamed up MM between them. When Julie & RB were supposed to have engaged with each other while she was with her boyfriend Bamber virtually all the time, no one knows.

Nugs brings up Julie usually in his one line 'question' threads. Julie is a  player in his conspiracy theories which bizarrely include The Sun, who apparently turned down an offer of a big, free exclusive from Bamber.

Kaldin has spent a lot of this week complaining about Julie buying a veil, attending the funeral & staying with Bamber. None of which Kaldin would have done. Again, I don't know how anyone knows what they would have done in Julie's situation. It was also suggested this week that Julie lied about Bamber saying he planned to cycle to WHF. Julie having the idea for this lie after seeing June's bike at Bamber's cottage just before the massacre.

Mike doesn't post about Julie much. Preferring to post mainly about the police

As far as I'm concerned JM is a small bit player in the grand scheme of things.

I dont recall JM making ref to the bike in her WS other than saying she would like it when JB asked her if she wanted anything from the house?

Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?