Author Topic: The Defence Will State Their Case  (Read 599762 times)

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Offline Caroline

Re: The Defence Will State Their Case
« Reply #3120 on: December 27, 2018, 08:59:54 PM »
Maybe so Caroline... But Twitter appears to be the source of a lot of information....

The idea that anyone from the media can tweet this case has always seemed wrong to me.... If you look at the tweet of people from the media, the reports of the information they bring forth raise questions always...

How can anything be believed or accepted...

Rupert Evelyn for instance, a twitter account that hasn't been confirmed, why I have no idea... But the information that he reveals is interesting... He adds information that only sets in the minds of the public what has happened or maybe happened.... For instance....

Was this mentioned at trial by Zoe Lehman??  that would suggest that someone was already outside the flat at that point...

What direction had they come from? It almost sound like they walked past Joanna Yeates door... Where they the people at the gate, I have asked this before???

Zoe and Florian Lehman, two witness's whom appear at court, we have seen them leaving with the photo's from Getty... That is if we are to accept that that is they.... Anyway... the real issue has to be what has been tweeted about the Lehmans from trial and Rosie and The Browns...

Left home at 8:34... where did she live??  didn't she go to Bargain Booze also??


Which light??

We direction was she facing??

These screams where apparently Joanna Yeates, the jury believed them to be Joanna Yeates, the timing of the screams supported the apparent time of the attack...

Who is Rosie??



What man walking towards the down?? Is it possible to see the downs from there, I don't know, but a local should be able to say...



That should have raised a few eyebrows....  But the next tweet make even less sense..
22nd December 2010.... Is the day that CJ made his second witness statement, a coincidence that Zoe lehman, then texts Maria Brown to ask her what time she had arrived at the party???

And that is the point.... She should know what time she arrived at the party... she should know what time, she left home and how long it took her to get there... Maria Brown should not be telling Zoe Lehman anything....  Two witness's cooperating with each other to establish a time that may or may nor be relevant....
How was this testimony allowed if they had to check with each other as to the time someone arrived at a party??

Marie Brown who wasn't at trial as far as we know, with the information that is available...

This tweet astounds me... How can you have one witness who doesn't attend trial corroborating another witness who does attend trial... timelines?

How did no-one pick up this point?  How can Zoe text someone else on a particular day that shouldn't be relevant, other than we know that this was the day that CJ made his second witness statement...

You have a man being seen.... walking towards the downs... You have friends agreeing what the time may or may not have been after the fact, and you have a defence and prosecution who have let that colluding, (for use of a better word) as to the time they believe that someone had arrived at a party...

The CCTV should show that.... The CCTV that DS Mark Saunders viewed....

Not only does she text Marie but....

Peter Brown, also helps in the timing of when Zoe arrived at said party.....

2 people who have not attended trial, telling a trial witness what time she arrived at a party where she may or may not have heard screams coming from 44, Canygne Road...

Why was her testimony used at trial?? why was Zoe Lehmans testimony used, when she hadn't a clue as to the time she arrived at a party?? We had Kingdon telling us he heard screams mid-morning on the 18th December 2010, but what he heard was dismissed...

How ?? Why?

Up until Dr Vincent Tabak takes the stand and states that he killed Joanna Yeates on the 17th December 2010 and the approx time, does anyone know that this is when she was killed.... NOTHING else supports this....

Didn't attend.....

Nothing that evening was apparently amiss.... No mention of screams that had aroused anyones suspicion....

I do not know what this case is about.... I do not understand it at all.... It has always had me in two minds... And that was the reason I have asked if it was even real or true....

What took place inside Bristol crown Court, we only have the tweets and media reports to go off.... And they paint and interesting picture....

Marie Brown and Peter Browns statements corroborate what??

That Zoe and Florian attended a party??
That they may or may not have heard screams??

Statements accepted into a trial without anyone questioning why Zoe texted Marie... what was in said text, and why was she enquiring on that particular day??

No-one in the judicary questioning this case and the shambles it appears to be....

Why everyone stay silent I do not know.... But the only conclusion I keep coming to is it cannot be real and true....

Nothing will ever make sense with this case..... What I do not understand, if the tweets are accurate and that is what was stated at trial, is why neither the prosecution or the defence, speaking up... Why would they be happy to accept what Zoe and Florian state, if they had no idea what time they arrived at a party.... and realistically the time should not have been important on the 22nd December 2010....

I keep wondering where Zoe and Florian lived??  And why that day was important enough for her to need to confirm when she arrived at a party? The gossip mongers where around at that time... CJ had told his neighbours about making his statement to the Police about seeing /hearing someone at the gate....

But we the public didn't know until the Leveson that it was the 22nd December 2010, if memory serves me correctly, that CJ made his secondary witness statement......

I will always be unsure what this is about.... I do not believe that anything would or could change... I will never understand why everyone had been silent about this ....

What I do not understand is why Rosie brown was not at trial, or Peter Brown for that matter.....  Why are we finding out via twitter that Zoe Lehmans recollection of that evening may not be relied upon... If she had to check with the Browns when she apparently arrived at their party....

How was their testimony allowed??

N.B  I am not signed into twitter, so I do not know if the times that appear on the tweets are accurate...



https://twitter.com/rupertevelyn/status/124484995342544897
https://twitter.com/rupertevelyn/status/124484751846412289
https://twitter.com/rupertevelyn/status/124482944608907264
https://twitter.com/rupertevelyn/status/124485347760549888
https://twitter.com/rupertevelyn/status/124486017741893633
https://twitter.com/rupertevelyn/status/124485347760549888
https://twitter.com/rupertevelyn/status/124486760590884864
https://twitter.com/rupertevelyn/status/124487211902185474
https://twitter.com/rupertevelyn/status/124488126503731200
https://twitter.com/rupertevelyn/status/126223775082614784
https://twitter.com/rupertevelyn/status/126223945740464128
https://twitter.com/rupertevelyn/status/126224157196300288
https://twitter.com/rupertevelyn/status/126224585728335872

Twitter is a source of 'misinformation'

Offline [...]

Re: The Defence Will State Their Case
« Reply #3121 on: December 30, 2018, 12:17:16 PM »
This case is a source of misinformation... Staged rubbish, made up codswallop, making no sense whatsoever.... (imo) of course!!

Edit.. where I have stated before, we have actors...  where Canygne Road has Digs for theatre professionals, where the theatre is just around the corner....

Where Tabak could mean Tobacco and the source of another known theatre...
https://www.tobaccofactorytheatres.com/whats-on/

Every scene is played out twice, two different versions, 2 sets of everything, 2 parts to the story.... And of course the script!!

Double Edit...

It's The Lost Honour of CJ..... Information within it that no-one should know unless they read the script... (imo)

Now Joanna Yeates is and has always been Missing since 17th December 2010... never moved from that even when it shouldn't be possible to set a time or date... Yet 2 interesting aspects from The Lost Honour of CJ...

(1): When CJ (actor) talks to an actor playing Greg on the doorstep, it looks like the flat is next door at 42, Canygne Road.... It is not 44, Canygne Road... it maybe a different number , but noway is it 44.Canygne Road..

(2): At 36:10 of the program.. "The Lost Honour of CJ" whilst CJ is in the interview room the Police Officer says...

" Did you clean the inside of either the Volvo or the Chryslar since teatime 6:00pm December the 17th.."

That would suggest that Joanna Yeates had been in either car and was probably dead before 6:00pm on December 17th....(imo) or should I say the programs opinion....

There has never been any timestamps, there has never been any evidence of anything.....

An interesting comment from said recreation in a program of a crime....




https://www.smokeandmirrorsbar.co.uk/

https://www.theatredigsbooker.com/digs/home-away-from-home-49-canynge-road-bristol?

https://en-gb.facebook.com/braidfilmtheatre/lat=51.45478&lng=-2.59825&theatre_id=305

http://thewardrobetheatre.com/about/

http://longwoodaos.co.uk/

https://www.skiddle.com/whats-on/Newquay/Lane-Theatre/

http://flyingpizza.net/

https://www.tobaccofactorytheatres.com/whats-on/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIz5Cu-ZnH3wIVBJzVCh1NfwN-EAAYASAAEgJXMvD_BwE

https://pastinthepresent.net/2017/06/29/up-in-smoke-tracing-the-rise-and-fall-of-bristols-tobacco-industry-as-seen-through-its-buildings/

https://www.theatredigsbooker.com/digs/home-away-from-home-49-canynge-road-bristol?lat=51.45478&lng=-2.59825&theatre_id=305

Offline mrswah

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Re: The Defence Will State Their Case
« Reply #3122 on: December 31, 2018, 11:37:37 AM »
I received a copy of William Clegg's book "Under the Wig" for Christmas ("sad", I know!), and thought I would relay to you what he says about the Joanna Yeates case.

Firstly, how he came to be Vincent Tabak's defence barrister:

"Tabak was being represented by Kelsey and Hall, whose senior partner Ian Kelsey, a well-known solicitor in the West Country, also knew one of the barristers in my chambers, Dean Armstrong. Since I had done some high-profile murder cases, I was engaged to act for Tabak, with Dean as my junior."

Mr Clegg says that it was "unusual to have such an intelligent defendant charged with murder" and that Tabak "spoke better English than most of my English clients".

A few points at odds with the newspaper reports, etc.

"By the time Mr Reardon returned to their flat on 19th December, he was already worried: Miss Yeates had not been responding to his texts and calls".

The "official" versions state that, at first, Greg was not worried, and that he was used to Joanna not returning his texts and calls.

He says that detectives found two bottles of cider in the flat, one of which had been partially drunk. In fact, Greg admitted to having finished the bottle when he returned home.

Clegg says that the police were already suspicious of Tabak before he went to Holland, and that they needed an excuse to visit him there. Tabak provided them with one by phoning the police and "claiming to have seen his neighbour using his car on the night Miss Yeates disappeared." 

In fact, he didn't say that; he said that the car had changed position during the night.

According to Clegg, VT "confided to a chaplain that he had killed Miss Yeates but said that her death had been an accident."

He didn't-----he told the chaplain that he was going to plead guilty.

Clegg says that he himself asked the judge to rule as inadmissible the fact that Tabak had a collection of "extreme and violent pornography".

He says that although the prosecution maintained that VT had strangled Joanna for "sexual gratification", this was "purely theoretical" and that VT had "nothing in his past to indicate any predilection for that sort of conduct."

This post is getting rather long, so I will continue it in reply to any comments/questions posters might have.

Happy New Year to you all!!

Offline [...]

Re: The Defence Will State Their Case
« Reply #3123 on: December 31, 2018, 02:46:38 PM »
I received a copy of William Clegg's book "Under the Wig" for Christmas ("sad", I know!), and thought I would relay to you what he says about the Joanna Yeates case.

Firstly, how he came to be Vincent Tabak's defence barrister:

"Tabak was being represented by Kelsey and Hall, whose senior partner Ian Kelsey, a well-known solicitor in the West Country, also knew one of the barristers in my chambers, Dean Armstrong. Since I had done some high-profile murder cases, I was engaged to act for Tabak, with Dean as my junior."

Mr Clegg says that it was "unusual to have such an intelligent defendant charged with murder" and that Tabak "spoke better English than most of my English clients".

A few points at odds with the newspaper reports, etc.

"By the time Mr Reardon returned to their flat on 19th December, he was already worried: Miss Yeates had not been responding to his texts and calls".

The "official" versions state that, at first, Greg was not worried, and that he was used to Joanna not returning his texts and calls.

He says that detectives found two bottles of cider in the flat, one of which had been partially drunk. In fact, Greg admitted to having finished the bottle when he returned home.

Clegg says that the police were already suspicious of Tabak before he went to Holland, and that they needed an excuse to visit him there. Tabak provided them with one by phoning the police and "claiming to have seen his neighbour using his car on the night Miss Yeates disappeared." 

In fact, he didn't say that; he said that the car had changed position during the night.

According to Clegg, VT "confided to a chaplain that he had killed Miss Yeates but said that her death had been an accident."

He didn't-----he told the chaplain that he was going to plead guilty.

Clegg says that he himself asked the judge to rule as inadmissible the fact that Tabak had a collection of "extreme and violent pornography".

He says that although the prosecution maintained that VT had strangled Joanna for "sexual gratification", this was "purely theoretical" and that VT had "nothing in his past to indicate any predilection for that sort of conduct."

This post is getting rather long, so I will continue it in reply to any comments/questions posters might have.

Happy New Year to you all!!

(1): Did he indicate why bail wasn't applied for?? 
(2): Or which witness's he thought he may or may not use?
(3): Did he say why Dr Vincent Tabak pled guilty to manslaughter?

Happy New Year also  8(>((

Edit.. Is it an in depth analysis of the case??

Please tell us more mrswah.....



Offline mrswah

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Re: The Defence Will State Their Case
« Reply #3124 on: January 01, 2019, 11:33:48 AM »
(1): Did he indicate why bail wasn't applied for?? 
(2): Or which witness's he thought he may or may not use?
(3): Did he say why Dr Vincent Tabak pled guilty to manslaughter?

Happy New Year also  8(>((

Edit.. Is it an in depth analysis of the case??

Please tell us more mrswah.....

No, I wouldn't say it is an in depth analysis of the case, but I thought it was worth a read, as nobody can say Mr Clegg wasn't there (at the trial, I mean)!

He doesn't mention bail, or say much about witnesses.

He does say that, before the trial, he went to Canynge Road with a colleague and "the police" to try to ascertain whether screams could be heard from Joanna's flat . He went to the flat where the party had been held, and his colleague screamed from no 44. Nothing was heard. This actually doesn't surprise me at all, as I am sure CJ or another tenant would have heard if Joanna had screamed.

He also says that he thought VT gave "quite compelling evidence", and that "nobody could say his explanation for Miss Yeates' death was impossible."

VT was very willing to give evidence, apparently. 


Offline Caroline

Re: The Defence Will State Their Case
« Reply #3125 on: January 02, 2019, 03:23:41 PM »
No, I wouldn't say it is an in depth analysis of the case, but I thought it was worth a read, as nobody can say Mr Clegg wasn't there (at the trial, I mean)!

He doesn't mention bail, or say much about witnesses.

He does say that, before the trial, he went to Canynge Road with a colleague and "the police" to try to ascertain whether screams could be heard from Joanna's flat . He went to the flat where the party had been held, and his colleague screamed from no 44. Nothing was heard. This actually doesn't surprise me at all, as I am sure CJ or another tenant would have heard if Joanna had screamed.

He also says that he thought VT gave "quite compelling evidence", and that "nobody could say his explanation for Miss Yeates' death was impossible."

VT was very willing to give evidence, apparently.

For what it's worth, I think it probably was an accident - what he did (or didn't do)  after that is why he is where he is today.

Offline mrswah

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Re: The Defence Will State Their Case
« Reply #3126 on: January 02, 2019, 04:18:14 PM »
For what it's worth, I think it probably was an accident - what he did (or didn't do)  after that is why he is where he is today.


Well, if I ever decide that he is guilty (always possible!), I would certainly believe he is guilty of manslaughter, not murder. 

Offline Caroline

Re: The Defence Will State Their Case
« Reply #3127 on: January 02, 2019, 07:34:36 PM »

Well, if I ever decide that he is guilty (always possible!), I would certainly believe he is guilty of manslaughter, not murder.

How can he not be guilty?

Offline Myster

Re: The Defence Will State Their Case
« Reply #3128 on: January 03, 2019, 05:13:55 AM »
Possibly because he's a figment of someone's imagination.
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline mrswah

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Re: The Defence Will State Their Case
« Reply #3129 on: January 03, 2019, 11:05:05 AM »
He's not a figment of anyone's imagination, and he might be guilty. I'm not into conspiracy theories, but I AM cynical and mistrushut upl, certainly of the media, also of juries, police officers and lawyers (well, sometimes, anyway). For example  why would I trust the detectives who worked on the Joanna Yeates case one hundred per cent, when they messed up so badly by accusing Christopher Jefferies?

As a result, I am one of those strange people who believes Vincent Tabak (and also a number of other people discussed on this forum) might not be guilty. People do plead guilty to crimes they haven't done, and forensic evidence is not always reliable (see New Year Day's copy of the Times,and there is an article in there saying just that).

I could be wrong though--------it's my stock phrase!




Offline Caroline

Re: The Defence Will State Their Case
« Reply #3130 on: January 03, 2019, 11:40:31 AM »
He's not a figment of anyone's imagination, and he might be guilty. I'm not into conspiracy theories, but I AM cynical and mistrushut upl, certainly of the media, also of juries, police officers and lawyers (well, sometimes, anyway). For example  why would I trust the detectives who worked on the Joanna Yeates case one hundred per cent, when they messed up so badly by accusing Christopher Jefferies?

As a result, I am one of those strange people who believes Vincent Tabak (and also a number of other people discussed on this forum) might not be guilty. People do plead guilty to crimes they haven't done, and forensic evidence is not always reliable (see New Year Day's copy of the Times,and there is an article in there saying just that).

I could be wrong though--------it's my stock phrase!

Yes, they do plead guilty BUT they retract it later. Many cases start off with a particular suspect only to change later - that's what an investigation is. Are you saying 'get it right first time or not at all'?

Offline mrswah

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Re: The Defence Will State Their Case
« Reply #3131 on: January 03, 2019, 12:01:56 PM »
Yes, they do plead guilty BUT they retract it later. Many cases start off with a particular suspect only to change later - that's what an investigation is. Are you saying 'get it right first time or not at all'?

No, of course not!  It's a bit hard on the first innocent suspect though----although I realise that, in CJ's case, it was the media who did the damage, rather than the police.

I'm suspicious though------just my opinion------first, they arrest the (unconventional looking) landlord, who lives at 44 Canynge Road, then, when they can't find any reason to charge him, they keep him on bail for ages, while they make a case against the "geeky" foreigner from next door, who just happens to be young, tall and strong enough to have "dunnit". 


CJ admitted to having found it difficult to cope with being in custody, and enduring relentless questioning. I wonder how difficult VT found it?  Did he collapse (mentally) under the strain?

We don't actually know, do we?

Offline Caroline

Re: The Defence Will State Their Case
« Reply #3132 on: January 03, 2019, 04:31:28 PM »
No, of course not!  It's a bit hard on the first innocent suspect though----although I realise that, in CJ's case, it was the media who did the damage, rather than the police.

I'm suspicious though------just my opinion------first, they arrest the (unconventional looking) landlord, who lives at 44 Canynge Road, then, when they can't find any reason to charge him, they keep him on bail for ages, while they make a case against the "geeky" foreigner from next door, who just happens to be young, tall and strong enough to have "dunnit". 


CJ admitted to having found it difficult to cope with being in custody, and enduring relentless questioning. I wonder how difficult VT found it?  Did he collapse (mentally) under the strain?

We don't actually know, do we?


There are an infinite amount of things we don't know that we could apply for the sake of it. What we DO know, is that he confessed to manslaughter not murder and as the police wanted a murder conviction, had they had the power to badger him into a confession, he's have confessed to murder and there would have been no trial. As it was, not only did he admit to manslaughter, he has a whole story of how that happened - which was at odds with the police/prosecution because they argued on murder and won. Did he collapse under the strain? No, he stuck to his guns!

Offline mrswah

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Re: The Defence Will State Their Case
« Reply #3133 on: January 03, 2019, 10:53:21 PM »

There are an infinite amount of things we don't know that we could apply for the sake of it. What we DO know, is that he confessed to manslaughter not murder and as the police wanted a murder conviction, had they had the power to badger him into a confession, he's have confessed to murder and there would have been no trial. As it was, not only did he admit to manslaughter, he has a whole story of how that happened - which was at odds with the police/prosecution because they argued on murder and won. Did he collapse under the strain? No, he stuck to his guns!

Yes, he stuck to his guns, but failed to answer a lot of questions, saying that he could not remember. Was this because he was actually guilty, or because he really wasn't there, and did not know what to say?


Why would he necessarily have confessed to murder?

IMO, we don't know, and I don't think anyone is going to tell us, either.

Offline Caroline

Re: The Defence Will State Their Case
« Reply #3134 on: January 04, 2019, 03:47:57 PM »
Yes, he stuck to his guns, but failed to answer a lot of questions, saying that he could not remember. Was this because he was actually guilty, or because he really wasn't there, and did not know what to say?


Why would he necessarily have confessed to murder?

IMO, we don't know, and I don't think anyone is going to tell us, either.

Your premise is that they might have broken him down and that's why he admitted to the crime. However, they were accusing him of murder NOT manslaughter - IF as you suggest, they 'broke' him, then how come he didn't give them what they wanted? That isn't a broken person, it's someone still in full control - he was happy to go through a trial and pretty happy (as your previous post suggests) to take the stand - not really sounding much like a broken man.

Lots of guilty people state that 'they can't remember' because to tell what they know would incriminate them further. Had he been innocent, don't you think he'd have wanted to appeal on those very grounds?

Some of us know because logic prevails.