UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Robittybob1 on August 10, 2018, 12:53:43 PM
-
Misty wrote http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9913.msg478738#msg478738
"http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
Plenty of page numbers referenced in this report.
Proof also than thousands more pages are not on the internet." End of quote.
Are there thousands of pages not in the file on the internet?
How did Misty come up with this number?
-
A figure plucked out of the air, maybe ?
-
Misty wrote http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9913.msg478738#msg478738
"http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
Plenty of page numbers referenced in this report.
Proof also than thousands more pages are not on the internet." End of quote.
Are there thousands of pages not in the file on the internet?
How did Misty come up with this number?
It will be interesting to see the proof referred to.
-
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9913.msg478811#msg478811
G-unit said "Firstly, therefore. pages have only one page number in these files. For the McCann's files to have different numbers they would need to have a completely different set of files created at the same time as these files.
Secondly, the only pages missing are those listed here;
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MISSING_PAGES.htm
I responded
"So define "missing pages"? In a book if pages were missing the numbers would skip the exact number of pages missing."
Is there any evidence that the missing pages had previously been given page numbers?
-
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9913.msg478811#msg478811
G-unit said "Firstly, therefore. pages have only one page number in these files. For the McCann's files to have different numbers they would need to have a completely different set of files created at the same time as these files.
Secondly, the only pages missing are those listed here;
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MISSING_PAGES.htm
I responded
"So define "missing pages"? In a book if pages were missing the numbers would skip the exact number of pages missing."
Is there any evidence that the missing pages had previously been given page numbers?
The missing pages page was created by Albym who went through the files and identified the missing pages and the reasons for them remaining under judicial secrecy (criminals, perverts, Crimestoppers information and police intelligence documents). All these are numbered but will stay secret.
Some missing statements are mentioned but these don't have page numbers. That means they never were in the files so they are not held under judicial secrecy. We know they exist because they are mentioned in other statements, but they never made it into the official files for some unknown reason.
-
The missing pages page was created by Albym who went through the files and identified the missing pages and the reasons for them remaining under judicial secrecy (criminals, perverts, Crimestoppers information and police intelligence documents). All these are numbered but will stay secret.
Some missing statements are mentioned but these don't have page numbers. That means they never were in the files so they are not held under judicial secrecy. We know they exist because they are mentioned in other statements, but they never made it into the official files for some unknown reason.
Probably got used to prop up the wobbly leg on the desk sergeant’s table and got forgotten.
-
Probably got used to prop up the wobbly leg on the desk sergeant’s table and got forgotten.
A simpler explanation would be that the people who gave those statements rang the Crimestoppers number so their statements are in that still secret area of the files.
-
A simpler explanation would be that the people who gave those statements rang the Crimestoppers number so their statements are in that still secret area of the files.
Or maybe, in some cases, they never got passed on to the PJ.
-
Or maybe, in some cases, they never got passed on to the PJ.
One of the things the McCanns seemed pleased with was that Operation Grange brought together all the scattered information in the case.. Ironically it was scattered in part because of their actions.
-
A simpler explanation would be that the people who gave those statements rang the Crimestoppers number so their statements are in that still secret area of the files.
So the statements not governed by judicial secrecy are the ones that ended up in the secret files? How ironic.
-
So the statements not governed by judicial secrecy are the ones that ended up in the secret files? How ironic.
As Portugal had (and has) supremacy judicial secrecy applied to all the evidence collected. When the decision was taken to archive the case some of the evidence remained under judicial secrecy for various reasons.
When Leicestershire Police released information to the McCanns before the case was archived it could be argued that they breached judicial secrecy.
-
One of the things the McCanns seemed pleased with was that Operation Grange brought together all the scattered information in the case.. Ironically it was scattered in part because of their actions.
Please substantiate in which way information "was scattered in part because of their actions", thank you.
-
Misty wrote http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9913.msg478738#msg478738
"http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
Plenty of page numbers referenced in this report.
Proof also than thousands more pages are not on the internet." End of quote.
Are there thousands of pages not in the file on the internet?
How did Misty come up with this number?
Please can Misty can provide a cite for these thousands of pages not on the internet.
-
Misty wrote http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9913.msg478738#msg478738
"http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
Plenty of page numbers referenced in this report.
Proof also than thousands more pages are not on the internet." End of quote.
Are there thousands of pages not in the file on the internet?
How did Misty come up with this number?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
Before actually entering the appreciation of the present inquiry it is useful to take a summarised look at the enormous dimension of the inquiry which is constituted of 17 Volumes, with a global processing of approximately 4500 pages, 9 appendixes that are integrated by 55 Volumes, in which 12000 pages and other relevant pieces were gathered, analysed and treated; further 22 dossiers were constituted, with more than 5000 pages, concerning fanciful or senseless news, yet organised out of mere caution.
I'll leave someone else to do the maths & then add up all the pages on the DVD.
The official case file released to the public on DVD comprised 11,223 pages of documents in four parts:
The main case file (Processo: 17 volumes, 4,717 pages) supported by-
the file of sightings around the world (Apenso 5: 14 volumes, 2,550 pages),
other information appendices (Outro Apensos: 21 volumes, 3,407 pages) and
interviews conducted in England under a request for Mutual Legal Assistance.
(Cartas Rogatorias: 9 volumes, 549 pages. Total - 1.07GB.
NB There are many missing pages in Apensos & some in Outros Apensos.
-
Misty wrote http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9913.msg478738#msg478738
"http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
Plenty of page numbers referenced in this report.
Proof also than thousands more pages are not on the internet." End of quote.
Are there thousands of pages not in the file on the internet?
How did Misty come up with this number?
You have misinterpreted what I posted.
-
One of the things the McCanns seemed pleased with was that Operation Grange brought together all the scattered information in the case.. Ironically it was scattered in part because of their actions.
Really? Here are just 2 examples of PJ page re-numbering which are confusing.
-
Why is the idea of the existence of two distinct "files" such a difficult concept to grasp?
It does not denote nefarious goings on....... *%87
Jeez! every piece of kit flogged into the EU from your hair drier to a multimillion dollar gas and chemical plant will have two files [at least].
-
You have misinterpreted what I posted.
I turned your statement into a question.
"Proof also than thousands more pages are not on the internet."
became "Are there thousands of pages not in the file on the internet?"
OK "not on the internet" became "not in the file on the internet" but they were intended to be the same. The file being the PJ file on the internet.
Tell me what was wrong with that?
-
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
Before actually entering the appreciation of the present inquiry it is useful to take a summarised look at the enormous dimension of the inquiry which is constituted of 17 Volumes, with a global processing of approximately 4500 pages, 9 appendixes that are integrated by 55 Volumes, in which 12000 pages and other relevant pieces were gathered, analysed and treated; further 22 dossiers were constituted, with more than 5000 pages, concerning fanciful or senseless news, yet organised out of mere caution.
I'll leave someone else to do the maths & then add up all the pages on the DVD.
The official case file released to the public on DVD comprised 11,223 pages of documents in four parts:
The main case file (Processo: 17 volumes, 4,717 pages) supported by-
the file of sightings around the world (Apenso 5: 14 volumes, 2,550 pages),
other information appendices (Outro Apensos: 21 volumes, 3,407 pages) and
interviews conducted in England under a request for Mutual Legal Assistance.
(Cartas Rogatorias: 9 volumes, 549 pages. Total - 1.07GB.
NB There are many missing pages in Apensos & some in Outros Apensos.
Thank you Misty.
So the DVD contained 11,223 pages.
The process produced 21,500 pages.
That means there are 10,277 pages still under judicial secrecy so they're not on the DVD.
We are told that 5,000 of those pages contained information which was 'fanciful or senseless'.
So we are left with 5,277 pages of information which remains under judicial secrecy because it relates to criminals, Crimewatch calls, operational police information and so on.
-
Why is the idea of the existence of two distinct "files" such a difficult concept to grasp?
It does not denote nefarious goings on....... *%87
Jeez! every piece of kit flogged into the EU from your hair drier to a multimillion dollar gas and chemical plant will have two files [at least].
I think it creates problems when there is incomplete cross-referencing.
-
I think it creates problems when there is incomplete cross-referencing.
It is also important to know that not all the evidence was presented on the file.
-
I turned your statement into a question.
"Proof also than thousands more pages are not on the internet."
became "Are there thousands of pages not in the file on the internet?"
OK "not on the internet" became "not in the file on the internet" but they were intended to be the same. The file being the PJ file on the internet.
Tell me what was wrong with that?
You refer to file in the singular when what's on the net is plural. Perhaps insert "on the DVD" after "pages"?
-
You refer to file in the singular when what's on the net is plural. Perhaps insert "on the DVD" after "pages"?
No you write it so it ends up in the right place please
Are you now saying "Proof also that thousands more pages "on the DVD" are not on the internet."?
I find that hard to believe. Where is the proof of that? You write what you mean and then prove it.
I have seen yours and G-unit's maths show there were thousands more pages in the PJ investigation than what is on the internet but why do you say they are still on the DVD?
-
There are actually pages within the released DVD files (on the internet) that aren't numbered. I am not planning on counting them but here's one.
(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/ping/phonemapAP13352.jpg)
-
No you write it so it ends up in the right place please
Are you now saying "Proof also that thousands more pages "on the DVD" are not on the internet."?
I find that hard to believe. Where is the proof of that? You write what you mean and then prove it.
I have seen yours and G-unit's maths show there were thousands more pages in the PJ investigation than what is on the internet but why do you say they are still on the DVD?
I cannot change the header of a topic I didn't create.
-
It is also important to know that not all the evidence was presented on the file.
Why?
If anyone bothered to research the process properly it would have been revealed that the PP decides what goes in the case file and what is made available to the public on archiving. It would also have revealed the "docket system".
It is hardly a new earth shattering revelation.
-
Why?
If anyone bothered to research the process properly it would have been revealed that the PP decides what goes in the case file and what is made available to the public on archiving. It would also have revealed the "docket system".
It is hardly a new earth shattering revelation.
What I meant is that a person shouldn't argue the point and keep on saying "all the files are on the internet".
You seem to agree with my stance that not all the files are on the internet as "the PP decides what goes in the case file and what is made available to the public on archiving".
Thanks for the support.
-
Misty wrote on the wrong thread -
Quote from: G-Unit on August 10, 2018, 02:30:24 PM
I will be interested to see your evidence.
"A few examples from one volume.
Misty's reply:
o_apenso_1_Vol_5_p816
MISSING PAGE
o_apenso_1_Vol_5_p965
o_apenso_1_Vol_5_p966
o_apenso_1_Vol_5_p968
MISSING PAGE
o_apenso_1_Vol_5_p974
MISSING PAGE
o_apenso_1_Vol_5_p981
MISSING PAGE
o_apenso_1_Vol_5_p982
MISSING PAGE
-
I cannot change the header of a topic I didn't create.
Header topic? That's the first time you've mentioned the header.
Write down your suggested header in full and I could change it.
-
Header topic? That's the first time you've mentioned the header.
Write down your suggested header in full and I could change it.
I didn't ask for a new topic to be created based around missing pages.
-
I didn't ask for a new topic to be created based around missing pages.
I can edit this one as well.
-
Is this the wording you want? Proof also that thousands more pages "on the DVD" are not on the internet.
That to me suggests the job of translating the files on the DVD has not been completed. Is that what you are suggesting? Please explain why you added "on the DVD"?
-
Is this the wording you want? Proof also that thousands more pages "on the DVD" are not on the internet.
That to me suggests the job of translating the files on the DVD has not been completed. Is that what you are suggesting? Please explain why you added "on the DVD"?
Rob - there are many, many numbered pages forming part of the PJ files released on the DVD which are missing in their original form & thus not available for translation. That is proven by the figures quoted at the beginning of the legal summary. There are also many statements & other investigative information collected & recorded on HOLMES by UK police which cannot be released to anyone because of the data protection act. I do not know where other countries' data has been stored.
-
Rob - there are many, many numbered pages forming part of the PJ files released on the DVD which are missing in their original form & thus not available for translation. That is proven by the figures quoted at the beginning of the legal summary. There are also many statements & other investigative information collected & recorded on HOLMES by UK police which cannot be released to anyone because of the data protection act. I do not know where other countries' data has been stored.
You might be right about all of these
1. there are many, many numbered pages forming part of the PJ files released on the DVD which are missing in their original form & thus not available for translation. That is proven by the figures quoted at the beginning of the legal summary.
2. There are also many statements & other investigative information collected & recorded on HOLMES by UK police which cannot be released to anyone because of the data protection act.
3. I do not know where other countries' data has been stored.
2 and 3 seem logical as I did read a request from the British to have all their data kept confidential.
As far as 1. goes I'm not completely sure what you are talking about, was it like the original statement by Raj Balu?
-
Really? Here are just 2 examples of PJ page re-numbering which are confusing.
I have looked at the first one, which is about the DNA of the twins. It may be cross referencing to the original document which was in English? They would only include the Portuguese translations in the main files, the originals would go into an appendix (apensos).
-
You might be right about all of these
1. there are many, many numbered pages forming part of the PJ files released on the DVD which are missing in their original form & thus not available for translation. That is proven by the figures quoted at the beginning of the legal summary.
2. There are also many statements & other investigative information collected & recorded on HOLMES by UK police which cannot be released to anyone because of the data protection act.
3. I do not know where other countries' data has been stored.
2 and 3 seem logical as I did read a request from the British to have all their data kept confidential.
As far as 1. goes I'm not completely sure what you are talking about, was it like the original statement by Raj Balu?
Leicestershire Constabulary had 11,000 pieces of information on 'the computer system'. How much of that was printed out and filed by the PJ isn't known.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6204.msg232060#msg232060
Looking at just one witness we know that a statement was taken from Stephen Carpenter on 17th May 2007 because it was discussed at his rogatory interview on 17th May 2008. We don;t know if his first statement was seen by the PJ or not.
-
Leicestershire Constabulary had 11,000 pieces of information on 'the computer system'. How much of that was printed out and filed by the PJ isn't known.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6204.msg232060#msg232060
Looking at just one witness we know that a statement was taken from Stephen Carpenter on 17th May 2007 because it was discussed at his rogatory interview on 17th May 2008. We don;t know if his first statement was seen by the PJ or not.
This thread could turn into a treasure trove of information if those finding evidence of missing pieces were to stack them here.
Berry and Balu spring to mind, but there must be many more.
-
This thread could turn into a treasure trove of information if those finding evidence of missing pieces were to stack them here.
Berry and Balu spring to mind, but there must be many more.
The Carpenter statement is interesting because it was taken at the request of the McCanns. Berry and Balu were interviewed at the request of the PJ.
-
What I meant is that a person shouldn't argue the point and keep on saying "all the files are on the internet".
You seem to agree with my stance that not all the files are on the internet as "the PP decides what goes in the case file and what is made available to the public on archiving".
Thanks for the support.
Yes and no problem ?{)(**
In my opinion it pays to work out why the system was set up in the first place.
In this instance it was b****r all to do with the McCann case rather a pan Portuguese Criminal Case procedure/process.
The broad process is fairly well delineated in a paper written for the EU Commission by a couple of Portuguese advocados named Caiero and Costa.
Those with rights of access to the files are listed in generic terms. Only the custodians of the full files have any need to cross reference and retrieve.
Even those with rights of access do not have access to all of the files. Any files containing personal information and, NOW HEAR THIS, those containing information not considered to constitute evidence cannot be accessed.
One would presume the MP did not fire off a shedful of CDs buck shot style. The MP would have given them to the generic groups delineated in their own procedures. The question then becomes who was responsible for splattering it all over that t’internet?. One would also presume somewhere the MP kept a document transmittal showing what was sent to whom. Does anyone have a copy of that transmittal ?
IMO tis fanciful to consider that what is retrievable on the net by Joe Public is there as somekind of official missive from the MP.
-
Yes and no problem ?{)(**
In my opinion it pays to work out why the system was set up in the first place.
In this instance it was b****r all to do with the McCann case rather a pan Portuguese Criminal Case procedure/process.
The broad process is fairly well delineated in a paper written for the EU Commission by a couple of Portuguese advocados named Caiero and Costa.
Those with rights of access to the files are listed in generic terms. Only the custodians of the full files have any need to cross reference and retrieve.
Even those with rights of access do not have access to all of the files. Any files containing personal information and, NOW HEAR THIS, those containing information not considered to constitute evidence cannot be accessed.
One would presume the MP did not fire off a shedful of CDs buck shot style. The MP would have given them to the generic groups delineated in their own procedures. The question then becomes who was responsible for splattering it all over that t’internet?. One would also presume somewhere the MP kept a document transmittal showing what was sent to whom. Does anyone have a copy of that transmittal ?
IMO tis fanciful to consider that what is retrievable on the net by Joe Public is there as somekind of official missive from the MP.
I think it contains what everyone with the correct credentials was allowed to see, including the McCann's lawyers.
-
This thread could turn into a treasure trove of information if those finding evidence of missing pieces were to stack them here.
Berry and Balu spring to mind, but there must be many more.
Although Madeleine's case was archived information continued to come in to the Policia Judiciaria; by this time the man in charge being Ricardo Piava.
At the libel trial in 2010 the judge ordered these files to be released to Isobel Duarte, the McCann lawyer.
Snip
Isabel Duarte, the couple’s solicitor, asked to see the police file after Inspector Paiva mentioned it during the court case.
“It is a disgrace that none of this information was given to Kate and Gerry. Some of the photos are shockingly similar to Madeleine.
“Every piece was treated the same way – Ricardo Paiva writes on it ‘this is not relevant to the investigation’.
“I said to him ‘How can you find a person when you are not looking for them?’”
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/7353737/Madeleine-McCann-more-than-50-new-leads.html
Any information coming into the investigation post 2008 would be contained in those files Paiva had ... we have little idea what information might have been contained therein, but the files were extensive.
For example just one instance re: telephone traffic ...
Snip
There were some 70,000 calls on the documents provided to the officers but I do not believe they have ever been properly analysed. It would be good if they did that now Lawyer Isabel Duarte
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/317111/Madeleine-McCann-The-lost-clues
-
Although Madeleine's case was archived information continued to come in to the Policia Judiciaria; by this time the man in charge being Ricardo Piava.
At the libel trial in 2010 the judge ordered these files to be released to Isobel Duarte, the McCann lawyer.
Snip
Isabel Duarte, the couple’s solicitor, asked to see the police file after Inspector Paiva mentioned it during the court case.
“It is a disgrace that none of this information was given to Kate and Gerry. Some of the photos are shockingly similar to Madeleine.
“Every piece was treated the same way – Ricardo Paiva writes on it ‘this is not relevant to the investigation’.
“I said to him ‘How can you find a person when you are not looking for them?’”
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/7353737/Madeleine-McCann-more-than-50-new-leads.html
Any information coming into the investigation post 2008 would be contained in those files Paiva had ... we have little idea what information might have been contained therein, but the files were extensive.
For example just one instance re: telephone traffic ...
Snip
There were some 70,000 calls on the documents provided to the officers but I do not believe they have ever been properly analysed. It would be good if they did that now Lawyer Isabel Duarte
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/317111/Madeleine-McCann-The-lost-clues
It is a shame we have no record of Paiva's response...... or do we?
-
does the process work?
-
does the process work?
Clearly not if the counsel for the defence is allowed to wander willy nilly through offices looking at documents she has no right of access to and then questioning an investigative officer wtf he thinks he is at.Then on the other hand I'd probably take that tale with a bushel or two of salt, working on the premise the process works until I had incontrovertible evidence it didn't. Incontrovertible in my book being something a bit more substantial than an article in the Daily Telegraph about ONE case in who knows how many.
-
Clearly not if the counsel for the defence is allowed to wander willy nilly through offices looking at documents she has no right of access to and then questioning an investigative officer wtf he thinks he is at.Then on the other hand I'd probably take that tale with a bushel or two of salt, working on the premise the process works until I had incontrovertible evidence it didn't. Incontrovertible in my book being something a bit more substantial than an article in the Daily Telegraph about ONE case in who knows how many.
You know the situation you are thinking of. I'm just learning, but if you say someone had to go through 40,000 pages looking for a particular document you would hope they had a very good index system to assist you.
-
You know the situation you are thinking of. I'm just learning, but if you say someone had to go through 40,000 pages looking for a particular document you would hope they had a very good index system to assist you.
Those who have a right of access have to apply for access through the Judicial Authority. It can be declined under certain circumstances apparently.
I would presume the files have a workable indexing system on the basis that the file custodians are the ones who will be doing the retrieval and searches. It would seem counterproductive to devise a system that is inoperable by those who need to use it. Remember this cannot be looked at solely through the "McCann prism".
-
Although Madeleine's case was archived information continued to come in to the Policia Judiciaria; by this time the man in charge being Ricardo Piava.
At the libel trial in 2010 the judge ordered these files to be released to Isobel Duarte, the McCann lawyer.
Snip
Isabel Duarte, the couple’s solicitor, asked to see the police file after Inspector Paiva mentioned it during the court case.
“It is a disgrace that none of this information was given to Kate and Gerry. Some of the photos are shockingly similar to Madeleine.
“Every piece was treated the same way – Ricardo Paiva writes on it ‘this is not relevant to the investigation’.
“I said to him ‘How can you find a person when you are not looking for them?’”
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/7353737/Madeleine-McCann-more-than-50-new-leads.html
Any information coming into the investigation post 2008 would be contained in those files Paiva had ... we have little idea what information might have been contained therein, but the files were extensive.
For example just one instance re: telephone traffic ...
Snip
There were some 70,000 calls on the documents provided to the officers but I do not believe they have ever been properly analysed. It would be good if they did that now Lawyer Isabel Duarte
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/317111/Madeleine-McCann-The-lost-clues
I wonder why she was so interested in this dossier and not in these files which were treated similarly?
22 dossiers were constituted, with more than 5000 pages, concerning fanciful or senseless news, yet organised out of mere caution.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
-
I wonder why she was so interested in this dossier and not in these files which were treated similarly?
22 dossiers were constituted, with more than 5000 pages, concerning fanciful or senseless news, yet organised out of mere caution.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
Disgusting on both accounts IMO.
-
I wonder why she was so interested in this dossier and not in these files which were treated similarly?
22 dossiers were constituted, with more than 5000 pages, concerning fanciful or senseless news, yet organised out of mere caution.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
I'm not quite sure if I know what you are talking about.
During a trial it was discovered that information sent to the Policia Judiciaria from the shelving of Madeleine's case in 2008 until 2010 had admittedly been filed as irrelevant to the investigation with no investigative activity being taken regarding them.
Can you think of any reason at all why anyone interested in Madeleine would not be desperate to access files which had never seen the light of day since receipt?
-
I'm not quite sure if I know what you are talking about.
During a trial it was discovered that information sent to the Policia Judiciaria from the shelving of Madeleine's case in 2008 until 2010 had admittedly been filed as irrelevant to the investigation with no investigative activity being taken regarding them.
Can you think of any reason at all why anyone interested in Madeleine would not be desperate to access files which had never seen the light of day since receipt?
That is the feeling I had when reading about that too.
-
Disgusting on both accounts IMO.
I would imagine most investigations which appeal for information (not that the PJ did) from the public end up with 99% of it being senseless or fanciful. LP were prepared to part with 81 such 'trivial' pieces of information, much to Kate McCann's chagrin. She had hoped to get her hands on some useful evidence.
-
I would imagine most investigations which appeal for information (not that the PJ did) from the public end up with 99% of it being senseless or fanciful. LP were prepared to part with 81 such 'trivial' pieces of information, much to Kate McCann's chagrin. She had hoped to get her hands on some useful evidence.
'That must have been frustrating for Kate. They wanted to lead their own investigation and all the information already submitted locked up in police files.
-
'That must have been frustrating for Kate. They wanted to lead their own investigation and all the information already submitted locked up in police files.
Oh it was. She failed to understand the fact that members of the public don't get access to police evidence no matter why they want it. She made several mistakes imo. She believed the UK police when they said they couldn't tell her things because of judicial secrecy. She thought she was letting them off that hook by getting a court to order the release of the information. She was shocked to discover that LP had no intention of giving her what she wanted when they, the Attorney General and ACPO showed that they were prepared to fight the request tooth and nail.
-
Oh it was. She failed to understand the fact that members of the public don't get access to police evidence no matter why they want it. She made several mistakes imo. She believed the UK police when they said they couldn't tell her things because of judicial secrecy. She thought she was letting them off that hook by getting a court to order the release of the information. She was shocked to discover that LP had no intention of giving her what she wanted when they, the Attorney General and ACPO showed that they were prepared to fight the request tooth and nail.
Hardly the actions of a guilty person IMO.
-
I would imagine most investigations which appeal for information (not that the PJ did) from the public end up with 99% of it being senseless or fanciful. LP were prepared to part with 81 such 'trivial' pieces of information, much to Kate McCann's chagrin. She had hoped to get her hands on some useful evidence.
A little girl was missing.
They suspended work on her case in July 2008 ... only 14 months after her disappearance. Thereafter information forwarded about her from other police forces and independent witnesses to the (non) investigation now in the charge of Ricardo Paiva was effectively ignored.
Information about a little girl in New Zealand lay neglected in police files for two years. She was so similar to Madeleine that it subsequently took a DNA test to eliminate her. Had she been Madeleine ... I very much doubt if she would still have been there two years down the line.
In my opinion that is not how one would expect the search for a missing child to be conducted. Interesting you should condone that.
Madeleine McCann: more than 50 new leads
More than 50 potential new leads into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann surfaced last night as details of a previously unknown police file were released.
Caroline Gammell in Portimao7:20AM GMT 03 Mar 2010
Scores of sightings were reported after the Portuguese police formally closed their investigation in July 2008 but the majority were not followed up.
The 2,000 page dossier contains hundreds of witness statements, photographs and unsolved lines of inquiry.
The sightings ranged from Europe to the west coast of the US, Hong Kong and Australasia and were passed on by independent witnesses and international police forces.
Madeleine was three when she vanished from her family’s apartment in the Algarve resort town of Praia da Luz in May 2007.
Her parents Kate and Gerry, both 41, have fought to keep their daughter’s plight in the spotlight, hiring their own private investigators to continue the search.
They only discovered the existence of the Portuguese police file last month during their court battle against Goncalo Amaral, the disgraced detective who tried to publish a book accusing the couple of covering up their daughter’s death.
The extensive dossier was released by the Portuguese authorities in Portimao yesterday after a request by The Daily Telegraph and includes:
:: Information about a British-registered white Mercedes box van which travelled on a ferry from Tarifa to Tangiers to Morocco from Spain with false number plates in the week Madeleine went missing. Its driver could not be traced
:: CCTV footage of a young girl resembling Madeleine which was taken in a supermarket in New Zealand in December 2007.
:: Repeated sightings of a girl who looked like Madeleine in Gent, Kortrijk and Bruges in Belgium in November 2008.
:: Information about a girl similar to Madeleine wearing a pyjama top similar to the one she was wearing when she disappeared who was with an “unkempt” couple in Agua Marina, near Murcia in Spain on May 15, 2007.
:: Reports in October 2008 of a girl matching Madeleine’s description being dragged along a road towards Faro airport on May 3, 2007 – the night she disappeared.
:: An account from lorry driver Michel Guidard who saw how a young girl who looked like Madeleine wearing a dirty yellow jumper and naked from the waist down being held at gunpoint at a motorway toll on the A20 near Paris in August 2008.
:: Photographs from the internet uncovered by a female French detective showing images of sexual abuse which involved a girl resembling Madeleine.
The previously unseen CCTV footage from New Zealand was sent to the Portuguese police by Interpol in Wellington in July 2008, just as they closed their investigation.
A female security guard at a supermarket in Dunedin, on the south island, thought she saw Madeleine on December 6, 2007.
She said the girl and the man holding her hand had British accents. Attempts to identify them failed and the information was passed to the Portuguese.
A hand-written note on the papers in the file said: “This has been checked by PJ and has no relevance to this investigation.”
The McCanns, from Rothley in Leicestershire, are furious that they were not told about the leads at the time and that they were not followed up to their satisfaction.
After successfully blocking the publication of Mr Amaral’s book The Truth of the Lie last month, Mrs McCann said: “There are instances where information which we think is very credible and worthy of information has not been actioned.
“We’re gutted, it’s absolutely shocking and difficult. Some of the information handed in was very credible, it’s heartbreaking to know that it seems to end there.”
Mr McCann was angered by Inspector Ricardo Paiva, their former liaison officer, who was responsible for collating any information that came into the police about Madeleine after the formal Portuguese investigation came to an end.
He said: “Inspector Paiva believes Madeleine is dead. How can he investigate thoroughly if he believes that?
“We know now there is a lot of information just filed away – and that is not acceptable.
“Once the file has been closed, what has actually been done? Next to nothing.”
Isabel Duarte, the couple’s solicitor, asked to see the police file after Inspector Paiva mentioned it during the court case.
“It is a disgrace that none of this information was given to Kate and Gerry. Some of the photos are shockingly similar to Madeleine.
“Every piece was treated the same way – Ricardo Paiva writes on it ‘this is not relevant to the investigation’.
“I said to him ‘How can you find a person when you are not looking for them?’”
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/7353737/Madeleine-McCann-more-than-50-new-leads.html
-
Well that is an admission of a 2000 page dossier right there.
"The 2,000 page dossier contains hundreds of witness statements, photographs and unsolved lines of inquiry".
-
Hardly the actions of a guilty person IMO.
Wouldn't that depend on why there were repeated attempts to see what evidence the PJ and LP had? Forewarned is forearmed, after all.
-
I'm not quite sure if I know what you are talking about.
During a trial it was discovered that information sent to the Policia Judiciaria from the shelving of Madeleine's case in 2008 until 2010 had admittedly been filed as irrelevant to the investigation with no investigative activity being taken regarding them.
Can you think of any reason at all why anyone interested in Madeleine would not be desperate to access files which had never seen the light of day since receipt?
It's also a fact that before the archiving 5.000 pages of information had been labelled 'senseless or fanciful' by the PJ. Those 5,000 pages have never been released. Why didn't the McCanns try to get those 22 dossiers so their PI's could make sure there was nothing in there which might be useful?
-
It's also a fact that before the archiving 5.000 pages of information had been labelled 'senseless or fanciful' by the PJ. Those 5,000 pages have never been released. Why didn't the McCanns try to get those 22 dossiers so their PI's could make sure there was nothing in there which might be useful?
How do you know for a fact they didn’t?
-
How do you know for a fact they didn’t?
I expect we would have heard about poor anguished Kate and Gerry being denied access to evidence which might help in their search by the nasty heartless Portuguese authorities.
-
I expect we would have heard about poor anguished Kate and Gerry being denied access to evidence which might help in their search by the nasty heartless Portuguese authorities.
What a facetious way of putting it.
-
I expect we would have heard about poor anguished Kate and Gerry being denied access to evidence which might help in their search by the nasty heartless Portuguese authorities.
Every now and then your posts reveal a less than unbiased view of the parents of a missing child which you claim to have.
Quite revealing at times.
IMO .
-
Wouldn't that depend on why there were repeated attempts to see what evidence the PJ and LP had? Forewarned is forearmed, after all.
IMO Well they wouldn't hand over the evidence they had on them, if there was any.
-
I'm not quite sure if I know what you are talking about.
During a trial it was discovered that information sent to the Policia Judiciaria from the shelving of Madeleine's case in 2008 until 2010 had admittedly been filed as irrelevant to the investigation with no investigative activity being taken regarding them.
Can you think of any reason at all why anyone interested in Madeleine would not be desperate to access files which had never seen the light of day since receipt?
What is the provenance of this unattributed tale?
-
Every now and then your posts reveal a less than unbiased view of the parents of a missing child which you claim to have.
Quite revealing at times.
IMO .
I was answering another post which suggested that the evidence was sought 'to help the search'. That statement is biased in my opinion so I pointed out that there are other possible reasons. It's called playing devil's advocate.
-
I was answering another post which suggested that the evidence was sought 'to help the search'. That statement is biased in my opinion so I pointed out that there are other possible reasons. It's called playing devil's advocate.
That’s one name for it...
-
I'm not quite sure if I know what you are talking about.
During a trial it was discovered that information sent to the Policia Judiciaria from the shelving of Madeleine's case in 2008 until 2010 had admittedly been filed as irrelevant to the investigation with no investigative activity being taken regarding them.
Can you think of any reason at all why anyone interested in Madeleine would not be desperate to access files which had never seen the light of day since receipt?
Brietta the 2008 to 2010 information wasn't within the files that G-Unit was talking about as they didn't exist at that time. You are talking about completely different information.
-
Brietta the 2008 to 2010 information wasn't within the files that G-Unit was talking about as they didn't exist at that time. You are talking about completely different information.
From the archiving of Madeleine's case onward in my opinion the information which continued to be sent to Portugal was the continuation of 'the files' into her case.
The fact that the information in that file was not shared with anyone does not in my opinion make it any less valuable than the information contained in 'the files' as we know them.
The information was about Madeleine and the information was about her case. You may not think it important that information was withheld and not acted upon, but I do ... and for all we know so might Madeleine McCann had she been given the chance.
-
Withheld from whom?
-
From the archiving of Madeleine's case onward in my opinion the information which continued to be sent to Portugal was the continuation of 'the files' into her case.
The fact that the information in that file was not shared with anyone does not in my opinion make it any less valuable than the information contained in 'the files' as we know them.
The information was about Madeleine and the information was about her case. You may not think it important that information was withheld and not acted upon, but I do ... and for all we know so might Madeleine McCann had she been given the chance.
In 2008 5.000 pieces of information were not released after the archiving. They are still held under judicial secrecy. The McCanns have never expressed any desire to see them as far as I know. Why make such a fuss about the information which came in after the archiving but show no interest in the information gathered before it?
-
In 2008 5.000 pieces of information were not released after the archiving. They are still held under judicial secrecy. The McCanns have never expressed any desire to see them as far as I know. Why make such a fuss about the information which came in after the archiving but show no interest in the information gathered before it?
Case proven I'd say.
-
In 2008 5.000 pieces of information were not released after the archiving. They are still held under judicial secrecy. The McCanns have never expressed any desire to see them as far as I know. Why make such a fuss about the information which came in after the archiving but show no interest in the information gathered before it?
you are basing your opinion on the fact that the mccanns made no attempt to access the 5000 pieces of information...but you admit you dont know if that is true
-
you are basing your opinion on the fact that the mccanns made no attempt to access the 5000 pieces of information...but you admit you dont know if that is true
I'm basing my opinion on the fact that a woman who criticises the Portuguese police for driving fast, smoking and not offering her a coffee is unlikely to keep quiet if the Public Ministry refused to give her information which she thought might help to find her missing daughter.
-
I'm basing my opinion on the fact that a woman who criticises the Portuguese police for driving fast, smoking and not offering her a coffee is unlikely to keep quiet if the Public Ministry refused to give her information which she thought might help to find her missing daughter.
more severe anti mccann sentiment from someone who claims to be basiclly neutral...your mask slips again...so you dont know you are just speculating
-
I'm basing my opinion on the fact that a woman who criticises the Portuguese police for driving fast, smoking and not offering her a coffee is unlikely to keep quiet if the Public Ministry refused to give her information which she thought might help to find her missing daughter.
do you know if she asked for it...do you know if she was given acces to it...do you know what the files contained
-
more severe anti mccann sentiment from someone who claims to be basiclly neutral...your mask slips again...so you dont know you are just speculating
I have observed Kate McCann's outrage when LP thwarted her efforts to have access to the evidence they held. Based on that, I have concluded she would have shared her feelings if the Portuguese had done the same. That seems logical to me.
-
I have observed Kate McCann's outrage when LP thwarted her efforts to have access to the evidence they held. Based on that, I have concluded she would have shared her feelings if the Portuguese had done the same. That seems logical to me.
it is still mere speculation..weren't those the files that were held back because they held confidential information re british paedophiles
-
I have observed Kate McCann's outrage when LP thwarted her efforts to have access to the evidence they held. Based on that, I have concluded she would have shared her feelings if the Portuguese had done the same. That seems logical to me.
Where did you observe this outrage? Please provide a cite of the footage, thanks.
-
From the archiving of Madeleine's case onward in my opinion the information which continued to be sent to Portugal was the continuation of 'the files' into her case.
The fact that the information in that file was not shared with anyone does not in my opinion make it any less valuable than the information contained in 'the files' as we know them.
The information was about Madeleine and the information was about her case. You may not think it important that information was withheld and not acted upon, but I do ... and for all we know so might Madeleine McCann had she been given the chance.
That suggests you have had sight of this information.
So have you seen it?, if so share this with the rest of the forum so we may form our own opinions; or is it just plain tittle tattle?
-
it is still mere speculation..weren't those the files that were held back because they held confidential information re british paedophiles
Was the reference to sex attacks on British children holiday makers in the main files or the unreleased files or somewhere else?
-
it is still mere speculation..weren't those the files that were held back because they held confidential information re british paedophiles
No. These were the 'fanciful and senseless' pieces of information.
-
No. These were the 'fanciful and senseless' pieces of information.
How did Kate McCann find out about the sex attacks on the children of British holiday makers?
-
How did Kate McCann find out about the sex attacks on the children of British holiday makers?
The British Consul told her on 4th May 2007.
-
The British Consul told her on 4th May 2007.
Imseem to recall her account of reading through the files and coming across references to these attacks, am I mistaken?
-
Imseem to recall her account of reading through the files and coming across references to these attacks, am I mistaken?
From what I can see it is only in the list of missing pages
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MISSING_PAGES.htm
-
From what I can see it is only in the list of missing pages
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MISSING_PAGES.htm
page 397 and 397 of the paperback edition details her going through the information in the files and coming across records of the sexual crimes against children in the Algarve. She tells of a letter of complaint written by a distraught mother to the GNR also.
-
page 397 and 397 of the paperback edition details her going through the information in the files and coming across records of the sexual crimes against children in the Algarve. She tells of a letter of complaint written by a distraught mother to the GNR also.
Perhaps you can find it in the files since you found a reference in Kate's book. I would be interested in looking at it if you can find it. I have looked and couldn't.
-
Perhaps you can find it in the files since you found a reference in Kate's book. I would be interested in looking at it if you can find it. I have looked and couldn't.
There is the file the PJ have, the file that Kate has, and the files we have. IMO they are not all the same file.
-
Imseem to recall her account of reading through the files and coming across references to these attacks, am I mistaken?
She does claim to have read the PJ's files. She also claims to have read about British children being abused in their beds. What she doesn't claim specifically is that she found that information in the PJ files. She says that the parents reported the incidents to the British police after Madeleine's disappearance. Perhaps this information was in the 81 items they got from LP? I can find no reference to it in the PJ files.
-
She does claim to have read the PJ's files. She also claims to have read about British children being abused in their beds. What she doesn't claim specifically is that she found that information in the PJ files. She says that the parents reported the incidents to the British police after Madeleine's disappearance. Perhaps this information was in the 81 items they got from LP? I can find no reference to it in the PJ files.
But it does make good reading if the PJ had this information and didn't do anything about it. I mean they could have told the parents before they set off, and prevented such a tragedy...
This whole story does seem to bring an uneasy feeling. why would these parents NOT go to the newspapers in the country or the GNR to report these incidents?
-
Perhaps you can find it in the files since you found a reference in Kate's book. I would be interested in looking at it if you can find it. I have looked and couldn't.
That’s my point.
-
I think I have picked up on a section of the PJ file that was not released at the time archiving the case.
It relates to the trip to Huelva by the McCanns. GMB http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id168.htm has several articles detailing a PJ investigation into that trip, but the only mention I found in the file relates to the sighting in Huelva.
Does anyone know where the files relating to the Huelva investigation after August the 3rd are?
Found a few pages (surprisingly the PJ documents are in English). http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/HUELVA.htm#h2901
-
But it does make good reading if the PJ had this information and didn't do anything about it. I mean they could have told the parents before they set off, and prevented such a tragedy...
This whole story does seem to bring an uneasy feeling. why would these parents NOT go to the newspapers in the country or the GNR to report these incidents?
Kate McCann says;
The PJ had never mentioned any of them to us. In fact, I gathered from the files, some of them hadn’t even been recorded by the authorities at the time they were reported (evidently, they were not considered to be actual crimes). [madeleine]
Kate seems to believe these British parents without question. She accepts the truth of what they say and uses it to denigrate the Portuguese police.
-
Kate McCann says;
The PJ had never mentioned any of them to us. In fact, I gathered from the files, some of them hadn’t even been recorded by the authorities at the time they were reported (evidently, they were not considered to be actual crimes). [madeleine]
Kate seems to believe these British parents without question. She accepts the truth of what they say and uses it to denigrate the Portuguese police.
Are the Portuguese police beyond criticism...... They deserve it IMO
Amaral is on record as saying... 15 markers might not be good enough fir the FSS.... but it was good enough for me and the investigation
What does that say for the Portuguese investigation
-
Kate McCann says;
The PJ had never mentioned any of them to us. In fact, I gathered from the files, some of them hadn’t even been recorded by the authorities at the time they were reported (evidently, they were not considered to be actual crimes). [madeleine]
Kate seems to believe these British parents without question. She accepts the truth of what they say and uses it to denigrate the Portuguese police.
It is carefully worded...
“One of the most concerning and upsetting pieces of information to emerge quite early was the record of sexual crimes against children in the Algarve. ...”
Not “I found a record in the files ...”
-
I think I have picked up on a section of the PJ file that was not released at the time archiving the case.
It relates to the trip to Huelva by the McCanns. GMB http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id168.htm has several articles detailing a PJ investigation into that trip, but the only mention I found in the file relates to the sighting in Huelva.
Does anyone know where the files relating to the Huelva investigation after August the 3rd are?
You can't believe what you read in the newspapers you know!
-
You can't believe what you read in the newspapers you know!
It is one way to show missing pages from the file.
-
It is one way to show missing pages from the file.
No it isn't. The media have consistently reported things that never happened; broken shutters, full DNA matches, people changing their minds..................and many many more.
-
No it isn't. The media have consistently reported things that never happened; broken shutters, full DNA matches, people changing their minds..................and many many more.
And how did the media know about these?
Jemmied shutters - that could have been his initial assessment, Gerry isn't a forensic expert. OK he learned more a few days later and he isn't repeating the same mistake.
-
And how did the media know about these?
Jemmied shutters - that could have been his initial assessment, Gerry isn't a forensic expert. OK he learned more a few days later and he isn't repeating the same mistake.
A lot of what the media reported was false or rumour. Who knows where they got it from.
-
And how did the media know about these?
Jemmied shutters - that could have been his initial assessment, Gerry isn't a forensic expert. OK he learned more a few days later and he isn't repeating the same mistake.
I believe the expression was first used by Gerry's sister in one of her first media interviews.
-
I believe the expression was first used by Gerry's sister in one of her first media interviews.
Based on what Gerry said over the phone. So whether it was an exaggeration who knows.
-
Based on what Gerry said over the phone. So whether it was an exaggeration who knows.
It is difficult to say because I have heard 'jemmied' ~ meaning forced ~ used to describe everything from a major event to something next to nothing.
There was a lot of discussion on it at one time on the forum ... I can't remember if it had its own thread or not
-
It is difficult to say because I have heard 'jemmied' ~ meaning forced ~ used to describe everything from a major event to something next to nothing.
There was a lot of discussion on it at one time on the forum ... I can't remember if it had its own thread or not
From what I understnd is that the shutters were found not in the same position as they were left in. So "jemmied" is a possible reason for that state.
-
It is carefully worded...
“One of the most concerning and upsetting pieces of information to emerge quite early was the record of sexual crimes against children in the Algarve. ...”
Not “I found a record in the files ...”
It would be handy to have an accurate record of places dates and names.
Then play that off against the Algarve area (5,000 sqkm) resident pop'n (about 500,000) plus god knows how many transients then cf with similar area etc in any European country of you choice.
-
From what I understnd is that the shutters were found not in the same position as they were left in. So "jemmied" is a possible reason for that state.
Bearing in mind that at that time they did not know the shutters could be raised from outside without being forced.
-
Bearing in mind that at that time they did not know the shutters could be raised from outside without being forced.
Gerry did know, according to 'madeleine'.
-
Gerry did know, according to 'madeleine'.
Are you sure.... Cite required.. I think you are very much mistaken
-
Are you sure.... Cite required.. I think you are very much mistaken
'madeleine'.
Gerry tested the shutter from the outside and found he could raise it.
-
'madeleine'.
Gerry tested the shutter from the outside and found he could raise it.
That was after Maddie disappeared... Those words are not a, quote from the book
-
That was after Maddie disappeared
But before it was claimed they had been jemmied.
-
But before it was claimed they had been jemmied.
Gerry nor Kate are on record as using that word
-
Gerry nor Kate are on record as using that word
Are you saying it wasn’t used?
-
Are you saying it wasn’t used?
I'm saying there is no record of Kate or Gerry using it
-
I'm saying there is no record of Kate or Gerry using it
So a complete none sequitur then?
-
But before it was claimed they had been jemmied.
Exactly.
-
So a complete none sequitur then?
It seems sceptics believe it to be a, fact that the McCann's lied about the shutters... When it isn't... It's just an opinion... And not true.. Imo
-
Exactly.
Claimed by whom
-
It seems sceptics believe it to be a, fact that the McCann's lied about the shutters... When it isn't... It's just an opinion... And not true.. Imo
Who are you arguing with? No one in the past few pages have claimed the McCanns said jemmied as far as I can see.
-
Who are you arguing with? No one in the past few pages have claimed the McCanns said jemmied as far as I can see.
I'm not arguing with anyone... It takes two to argue
-
I'm not arguing with anyone... It takes two to argue
You’re the exception that proves the rule...
-
I'm not arguing with anyone... It takes two to argue
Then again there's them who could start an argument in an empty room.
-
You’re the exception that proves the rule...
Good job really because there's no more one here with the intellect to engage me
-
It is carefully worded...
“One of the most concerning and upsetting pieces of information to emerge quite early was the record of sexual crimes against children in the Algarve. ...”
Not “I found a record in the files ...”
Immediately preceding this she writes about “wading through” documents and as above “the record” of sexual crimes, including a letter of complaint from a parent to the GNR. Where do you suppose these documents were archived prior to Kate getting hold of them?
-
Kate McCann says;
The PJ had never mentioned any of them to us. In fact, I gathered from the files, some of them hadn’t even been recorded by the authorities at the time they were reported (evidently, they were not considered to be actual crimes). [madeleine]
Kate seems to believe these British parents without question. She accepts the truth of what they say and uses it to denigrate the Portuguese police.
Why would she have any reason to believe that various parents would all lie about something like this?
-
Immediately preceding this she writes about “wading through” documents and as above “the record” of sexual crimes, including a letter of complaint from a parent to the GNR. Where do you suppose these documents were archived prior to Kate getting hold of them?
Thank you for returning the thread to topic.
I would imagine that given the context she could only have read it in the pages of the files which we have not seen.
-
Thank you for returning the thread to topic.
I would imagine that given the context she could only have read it in the pages of the files which we have not seen.
Is there any evidence that different people are given different levels of access to police files?
-
Is there any evidence that different people are given different levels of access to police files?
I have provided evidence that Kate received information from the files that was not released to the public, you have chosen to reject that evidence, your choice.
-
Immediately preceding this she writes about “wading through” documents and as above “the record” of sexual crimes, including a letter of complaint from a parent to the GNR. Where do you suppose these documents were archived prior to Kate getting hold of them?
Who were these “crimes” reported to?
-
Who were these “crimes” reported to?
The Portuguese police in the first instance, according to Kate McCann’s book.
-
The Portuguese police in the first instance, according to Kate McCann’s book.
But if they don't keep records?
-
The Portuguese police in the first instance, according to Kate McCann’s book.
We know they are not in the released files and as they are probably not considered part of the case they would not be released. This leads us to the conclusion that the information came from other sources, crimestoppers, the website, etc.
-
We know they are not in the released files and as they are probably not considered part of the case they would not be released. This leads us to the conclusion that the information came from other sources, crimestoppers, the website, etc.
In her book Kate writes “I gathered from the files, that some of them (sex assaults) hadn’t even been recorded by the authorities...”. This would indicate that some of them had - where is this information to be gleaned from the released files?
-
In her book Kate writes “I gathered from the files, that some of them (sex assaults) hadn’t even been recorded by the authorities...”. This would indicate that some of them had - where is this information to be gleaned from the released files?
A bit of a contradiction, unrecorded information in the files...
-
I have provided evidence that Kate received information from the files that was not released to the public, you have chosen to reject that evidence, your choice.
No you haven't. You have provided evidence that Kate had information which isn't in the PJ files. You are assuming that the information came from the files which remained under judicial secrecy. Judicial secrecy means information which only the Judiciary can access in my opinion.
-
A bit of a contradiction, unrecorded information in the files...
Not really, when she says SOME of the information is not recorded in the files.
-
Madeleine McCann police seek intruder who attacked girls at holiday homes
"These offences are very serious and no one has been charged in connection with them. We also need to eliminate this man from our inquiries and ascertain whether these offences are linked to Madeleine's disappearance," he said.
"If you have been a victim of a similar crime please come forward even if you reported the incident to police in Portugal, or anywhere else, please do not assume we have been made aware of it."
There was also a "very close resonance" to some features of Madeleine's disappearance, said Redwood.
"We really need to identify the offender, to bring to a close the trauma and the tragedy that these families have suffered, and then seek to establish whether this is connected to Madeleine's disappearance." DCI Redwood
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/mar/19/madeleine-mccann-police-intruder-girls-algarve
There must have been a reason behind DCI Redwood's advice to crime victims not to assume that SY had been made aware of it even if reported to the Portuguese police.
-
Is there any evidence that different people are given different levels of access to police files?
No!
"If the procedure is not under secrecy of justice its file may be accessed by anyone who has a legitimate reason for doing so".
-
No!
"If the procedure is not under secrecy of justice its file may be accessed by anyone who has a legitimate reason for doing so".
Not everyone will have the same legitimacy surely?
-
Not everyone will have the same legitimacy surely?
The files are either on the DVD or they're under Judicial Secrecy..Those still under Judicial secrecy would not be released to anyone.
-
Not everyone will have the same legitimacy surely?
It would seem provided the person has legitimacy, which is well delineated, they have access to all the file except personal information and that which is not considered evidence.
It's on page 583 of the EU Commission Tome on the subject.
-
It would seem provided the person has legitimacy, which is well delineated, they have access to all the file except personal information and that which is not considered evidence.
It's on page 583 of the EU Commission Tome on the subject.
Is that on the internet, can you give me the actual link, I'd like to see if I can get my own copy of the file?
-
Kate also writes in her book of reading in the files of the depraved paedo individuals living in the area, of the crimes they had committed and the actions (or lack of them) recorded by the Portguese police on visiting some of them. So how did Kate gain access to these details?
-
Kate also writes in her book of reading in the files of the depraved paedo individuals living in the area, of the crimes they had committed and the actions (or lack of them) recorded by the Portguese police on visiting some of them. So how did Kate gain access to these details?
Didn't she get these via the British Consulate. That was my impression; was that in her book?
-
Didn't she get these via the British Consulate. That was my impression; was that in her book?
According to Kate these were records of the Portuguese police visiting the homes of some known child sex offenders, and simply recording “no minor present”. How would these documents have got into the hands of the British Consulate first?
-
According to Kate these were records of the Portuguese police visiting the homes of some known child sex offenders, and simply recording “no minor present”. How would these documents have got into the hands of the British Consulate first?
It didn't take the McCanns long to contact the UK consulate on Portugal, so who knows the other parents may have also reported the incidents to the Consulate particularly in cases where the parents felt the PJ weren't treating it seriously enough. The Consulate may have been looking into the series of incidences long before the McCann case occurred.
-
It didn't take the McCanns long to contact the UK consulate on Portugal, so who knows the other parents may have also reported the incidents to the Consulate particularly in cases where the parents felt the PJ weren't treating it seriously enough. The Consulate may have been looking into the series of incidences long before the McCann case occurred.
You are confusing two separate issues - the attacks on British children (known to the consulate) and visits by the PJ to known sex offenders of various nationalities during the McCann investigation. Why would the British Consulate have had paperwork pertaining to these?
-
You are confusing two separate issues - the attacks on British children (known to the consulate) and visits by the PJ to known sex offenders of various nationalities during the McCann investigation. Why would the British Consulate have had paperwork pertaining to these?
The British Consulate could have asked for it. I don't know exactly.
-
A bit of a contradiction, unrecorded information in the files...
Impossible IMO. I think she got the information elsewhere and for whatever reason attributed it to the files. She may be protecting a source or have forgotten but I don't believe she read it in the files.
There is another item Kate ascribes to the files that isn't in the released copy on the internet, that is:
Page 56 It wasn't until a year later, when I was combing though the Portuguese files, that I discovered that the note requesting our block booking was written in a staff message book, which sat on a desk at the pool reception for most of the day. This book was accessible to all staff and, albeit unintentionally, probably to guests and visitors, too. To my horror, I saw that, no doubt in all innocence and simply to explain why she was bending the rules a bit, the receptionist had added the reason for our request: we wanted to eat close to our apartments as we were leaving our young children alone there and checking on them intermittently.
Page 325 It was here [combing through the files] I found the receptionist’s note in the Ocean Club staff message book explaining that we wanted to book the Tapas restaurant for the rest of that week because we were leaving our children alone in our apartments. I was dismayed. This was a green light to a child-taker - and yet no mention of it is made in the files until December 2007.
-
Impossible IMO. I think she got the information elsewhere and for whatever reason attributed it to the files. She may be protecting a source or have forgotten but I don't believe she read it in the files.
There is another item Kate ascribes to the files that isn't in the released copy on the internet, that is:
Page 56 It wasn't until a year later, when I was combing though the Portuguese files, that I discovered that the note requesting our block booking was written in a staff message book, which sat on a desk at the pool reception for most of the day. This book was accessible to all staff and, albeit unintentionally, probably to guests and visitors, too. To my horror, I saw that, no doubt in all innocence and simply to explain why she was bending the rules a bit, the receptionist had added the reason for our request: we wanted to eat close to our apartments as we were leaving our young children alone there and checking on them intermittently.
Page 325 It was here [combing through the files] I found the receptionist’s note in the Ocean Club staff message book explaining that we wanted to book the Tapas restaurant for the rest of that week because we were leaving our children alone in our apartments. I was dismayed. This was a green light to a child-taker - and yet no mention of it is made in the files until December 2007.
This is information collated by the PJ that Kate has access to that we do not, same as the other examples I have posted.
-
Impossible IMO. I think she got the information elsewhere and for whatever reason attributed it to the files. She may be protecting a source or have forgotten but I don't believe she read it in the files.
There is another item Kate ascribes to the files that isn't in the released copy on the internet, that is:
Page 56 It wasn't until a year later, when I was combing though the Portuguese files, that I discovered that the note requesting our block booking was written in a staff message book, which sat on a desk at the pool reception for most of the day. This book was accessible to all staff and, albeit unintentionally, probably to guests and visitors, too. To my horror, I saw that, no doubt in all innocence and simply to explain why she was bending the rules a bit, the receptionist had added the reason for our request: we wanted to eat close to our apartments as we were leaving our young children alone there and checking on them intermittently.
Page 325 It was here [combing through the files] I found the receptionist’s note in the Ocean Club staff message book explaining that we wanted to book the Tapas restaurant for the rest of that week because we were leaving our children alone in our apartments. I was dismayed. This was a green light to a child-taker - and yet no mention of it is made in the files until December 2007.
Ah, the block booking made on Monday morning by short dark-haired Rachael. Or was it made on Sunday by a tall thin man, as the receptionist Luisa Coutinho testified?
-
Ah, the block booking made on Monday morning by short dark-haired Rachael. Or was it made on Sunday by a tall thin man, as the receptionist Luisa Coutinho testified?
It would be helpful to include a cite for both.
-
It would be helpful to include a cite for both.
"She remembers that on Sunday 29th April one of the elements of the group arrived with the child Madeleine McCann, she does not know his name and can only say that he was male and tall and thin and that he approached her to request a booking for the whole group, for the whole week and always at 20.30.
When questioned, she confirms that the man was not the father of the girl but one of the members of the group whom was often seen in his company.
The man justified his request by saying that the group had many small children whom they would leave alone when they went to dine. She said that at intervals some two parents would go to the apartments to see if everything was OK.
The deponent made some comments about the request, saying that the Tapas received many requests and that MW only had a quota of 20 per day, but upon the insistence of the guest she managed to make the bookings requested.
She confirms that it was possible to see the apartment from the restaurant, including the window of the sitting room." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LUISA_COUTINHO.htm
The other cite has been noted before but how do you find it. It was one of the managers wasn't it?
-
"She remembers that on Sunday 29th April one of the elements of the group arrived with the child Madeleine McCann, she does not know his name and can only say that he was male and tall and thin and that he approached her to request a booking for the whole group, for the whole week and always at 20.30.
When questioned, she confirms that the man was not the father of the girl but one of the members of the group whom was often seen in his company.
The man justified his request by saying that the group had many small children whom they would leave alone when they went to dine. She said that at intervals some two parents would go to the apartments to see if everything was OK.
The deponent made some comments about the request, saying that the Tapas received many requests and that MW only had a quota of 20 per day, but upon the insistence of the guest she managed to make the bookings requested.
She confirms that it was possible to see the apartment from the restaurant, including the window of the sitting room." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LUISA_COUTINHO.htm
The other cite has been noted before but how do you find it. It was one of the managers wasn't it?
Possibly in one or other of the rogatory statements ... I don't know offhand ... which is why I suggested a cite would be helpful.
-
Mercury talked about the file being 40,000 pages long.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6432.msg256497#msg256497 "It is about time people thanked the translators of the mccannpjfiles otherwise they would have NOTHING much to talk about, or cherry pick, or skew, and perhaps use their nous most of the tme instead of criticising, but of course, they can have a stab if they want to translate 40000 pages themselves for no thanks and criticism of course"
For some reason the 40,000 page figure keeps coming up.
Shining in Luz blog had the quote from OG. https://shininginluz.wordpress.com/tag/charity-collector/
"It added that the “vast majority” of the work of Operation Grange had been completed. In total officers had reviewed more than 40,000 documents, took 1,338 statements and collected 1,027 exhibits."
Was that 40,000 the number of pages in the PJ original file?
What about this enormous number! http://www.theportugalnews.com/news/madeleine-mccann-scotland-yard-back-in-portugal/27582
"Throughout the course of the review officers have been in close contact with the McCann family who have been assigned a Family Liaison Officer.
The review team say they are in a unique position in that their task is to compile and review material from three separate strands - the Portuguese investigation, inquiries by UK law enforcement agencies, and the work of private investigators/agencies.
Officers have been going through that material which they believe amounts to around 40,000 pieces of information equating to approximately 100,000 pages."
-
Mercury talked about the file being 40,000 pages long.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6432.msg256497#msg256497 "It is about time people thanked the translators of the mccannpjfiles otherwise they would have NOTHING much to talk about, or cherry pick, or skew, and perhaps use their nous most of the tme instead of criticising, but of course, they can have a stab if they want to translate 40000 pages themselves for no thanks and criticism of course"
For some reason the 40,000 page figure keeps coming up.
Shining in Luz blog had the quote from OG. https://shininginluz.wordpress.com/tag/charity-collector/
"It added that the “vast majority” of the work of Operation Grange had been completed. In total officers had reviewed more than 40,000 documents, took 1,338 statements and collected 1,027 exhibits."
Was that 40,000 the number of pages in the PJ original file?
What about this enormous number! http://www.theportugalnews.com/news/madeleine-mccann-scotland-yard-back-in-portugal/27582
"Throughout the course of the review officers have been in close contact with the McCann family who have been assigned a Family Liaison Officer.
The review team say they are in a unique position in that their task is to compile and review material from three separate strands - the Portuguese investigation, inquiries by UK law enforcement agencies, and the work of private investigators/agencies.
Officers have been going through that material which they believe amounts to around 40,000 pieces of information equating to approximately 100,000 pages."
The Scotland Yard review consisted not only of the PJ files in their entirety ... but also of all the information which had been collected since 2008 when Madeleine's case was archived ... which as mentioned above included information from the much maligned McCann private detectives and the information sent to Ricardo Paiva as head of the Madeleine investigation but which had been filed and ignored ... the revelation of which in my opinion shamed the authorities in both countries into reviewing Madeleine's case.
-
Possibly in one or other of the rogatory statements ... I don't know offhand ... which is why I suggested a cite would be helpful.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RACHAEL-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm
-
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RACHAEL-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm
Thank you.
-
Possibly in one or other of the rogatory statements ... I don't know offhand ... which is why I suggested a cite would be helpful.
Even with a site - how would you know if there are thousands of pages not seen by anyone.
is that what GA is referring to here.
The former lead detective on the Madeliene McCann case Goncalo Amaral has defended making her parents official suspects.
Mr Amaral was removed from his post in October 2007 after reportedly criticising his British counterparts. (00:01:44)
*
Transcript:
Gonçalo Amaral: In this case, it wasn't purely and simply a decision taken by police officers - Portuguese and British police - there were others involved; Public prosecutors, the National Directorate of the Portugese police - they all knew there was a necessity to put everything on the table, in light of the advances we had made, the combinations of leads we had. There were no persecutions, the police do not want to persecute anyone, just to investigate what happened in a given case.
Steve Kingstone: According to the McCann's then spokeswoman, it was put to Kate McCann in her police interview blood had been found in the car and we now know that that evidence was not conclusive, there will be people who say that the police bluffed in that inteview.
GA: I guarantee there was no bluff in those interviews, not at all, and when all the documents are made public, people will see I am telling the truth.
SK: Do you think it's possible that Madeleine McCann is still alive?
GA: The evidence that we had gathered by the time I left the case pointed to the girl being dead and having died inside the apartment. I don't know what happened next, I can't say, we'll have to wait for the case files to be made public.
-
Yes where is this evidence GA talks about?
-
Yes where is this evidence GA talks about?
More to the point, where is the evidence that they tried to bluff the McCanns?
-
More to the point, where is the evidence that they tried to bluff the McCanns?
Ask GA not me.
-
Ask GA not me.
Well if it's not in the files then there's no evidence they tried to bluff the McCanns, is there?
-
So the police (Amaral) never said blood had been found in the car, or put that as evidence to Kate McCann, is that the arguement now?
-
Even with a site - how would you know if there are thousands of pages not seen by anyone.
is that what GA is referring to here.
The former lead detective on the Madeliene McCann case Goncalo Amaral has defended making her parents official suspects.
Mr Amaral was removed from his post in October 2007 after reportedly criticising his British counterparts. (00:01:44)
*
Transcript:
Gonçalo Amaral: In this case, it wasn't purely and simply a decision taken by police officers - Portuguese and British police - there were others involved; Public prosecutors, the National Directorate of the Portugese police - they all knew there was a necessity to put everything on the table, in light of the advances we had made, the combinations of leads we had. There were no persecutions, the police do not want to persecute anyone, just to investigate what happened in a given case.
Steve Kingstone: According to the McCann's then spokeswoman, it was put to Kate McCann in her police interview blood had been found in the car and we now know that that evidence was not conclusive, there will be people who say that the police bluffed in that inteview.
GA: I guarantee there was no bluff in those interviews, not at all, and when all the documents are made public, people will see I am telling the truth.
SK: Do you think it's possible that Madeleine McCann is still alive?
GA: The evidence that we had gathered by the time I left the case pointed to the girl being dead and having died inside the apartment. I don't know what happened next, I can't say, we'll have to wait for the case files to be made public.
No bluff.... Amaral believed the rubbish he was spouting
-
So the police (Amaral) never said blood had been found in the car, or put that as evidence to Kate McCann, is that the arguement now?
Perhaps you have a cite for whatever it is that you're suggesting?
-
Perhaps you have a cite for whatever it is that you're suggesting?
I’m asking a question not stating a fact. Do we now have to provide cites for questions fgs??!
-
I’m asking a question not stating a fact. Do we now have to provide cites for questions fgs??!
So sorry. It sounded like a statement to me. I don't know the answer, do you?
-
So sorry. It sounded like a statement to me. I don't know the answer, do you?
According to Kate McCann in her book, this is precisely what Paiva did, showed her the dog videos, said blood had been found in the car which matched Madeleine’s and asked her to explain it.
-
According to Kate McCann in her book, this is precisely what Paiva did, showed her the dog videos, said blood had been found in the car which matched Madeleine’s and asked her to explain it.
Is that how it goes in her arguida interview?
-
Is that how it goes in her arguida interview?
I beg your pardon?
-
Where's the emoticon for 'shrugs shoulders'?
-
According to Kate McCann in her book, this is precisely what Paiva did, showed her the dog videos, said blood had been found in the car which matched Madeleine’s and asked her to explain it.
I thought it was more statement than question. Kate McCann also claimed the police offered her a deal. Her own lawyer denied that claim, as well as the PJ.
-
I thought it was more statement than question. Kate McCann also claimed the police offered her a deal. Her own lawyer denied that claim, as well as the PJ.
Of course. She made it all up. Silly me.
-
But. But. But...
We are regularly told that the police use deception when interrogating suspects, so can anyone explain why, when showing Kate the dog videos, the police would not claim the dogs were alerting to Madeleine’s blood...? Are they all far too honest for such underhand behaviour in that thar Portugal?
-
I thought it was more statement than question. Kate McCann also claimed the police offered her a deal. Her own lawyer denied that claim, as well as the PJ.
Cite for her own lawyer denied it
-
Of course. She made it all up. Silly me.
A Claytons plea deal
-
But. But. But...
We are regularly told that the police use deception when interrogating suspects, so can anyone explain why, when showing Kate the dog videos, the police would not claim the dogs were alerting to Madeleine’s blood...? Are they all far too honest for such underhand behaviour in that thar Portugal?
Maybe they did, but Amaral's claim about the files appears to be correct.
-
Cite for her own lawyer denied it
That explains the outrage 10 days ago, on the evening that Gerry and Kate McCann were declared formal suspects, or arguidos, in the disappearance of their daughter. Police were still questioning Gerry McCann when, already, his sister Philomena was telling Sky they had offered Kate McCann a reduced two-year sentence if she admitted to killing her daughter accidentally, hiding the body and then secretly disposing of it weeks later.
On this occasion the police officers were right to be angry. Like many things said about the McCann affair over the past days and months, the story was wrong. There was no offer of a plea bargain. It had all been "a misunderstanding", the McCann lawyer, Carlos Pinto de Abreu, explained the following day.
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2007/sep/17/mondaymediasection13
-
I beg your pardon?
Is that in accordance with her arguida interview?
-
That explains the outrage 10 days ago, on the evening that Gerry and Kate McCann were declared formal suspects, or arguidos, in the disappearance of their daughter. Police were still questioning Gerry McCann when, already, his sister Philomena was telling Sky they had offered Kate McCann a reduced two-year sentence if she admitted to killing her daughter accidentally, hiding the body and then secretly disposing of it weeks later.
On this occasion the police officers were right to be angry. Like many things said about the McCann affair over the past days and months, the story was wrong. There was no offer of a plea bargain. It had all been "a misunderstanding", the McCann lawyer, Carlos Pinto de Abreu, explained the following day.
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2007/sep/17/mondaymediasection13
So he didn't deny it... He said it was a misunderstanding
-
Is that in accordance with her arguida interview?
What do you mean exactly? This was the interrogation conduted by Paiva immediately preceding her arguid interview, if that helps?
-
Cite for her own lawyer denied it
Philomena McCann said;
"They tried to get Kate to confess to having accidentally killed Madeleine by offering her a deal through her lawyer,
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1562427/Kate-McCann-accused-of-killing-Madeleine.html
Like many things said about the McCann affair over the past days and months, the story was wrong. There was no offer of a plea bargain. It had all been "a misunderstanding", the McCann lawyer, Carlos Pinto de Abreu, explained the following day.
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2007/sep/17/mondaymediasection13
-
Maybe they did, but Amaral's claim about the files appears to be correct.
Have you been to specsavers lately?
-
Philomena McCann said;
"They tried to get Kate to confess to having accidentally killed Madeleine by offering her a deal through her lawyer,
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1562427/Kate-McCann-accused-of-killing-Madeleine.html
Like many things said about the McCann affair over the past days and months, the story was wrong. There was no offer of a plea bargain. It had all been "a misunderstanding", the McCann lawyer, Carlos Pinto de Abreu, explained the following day.
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2007/sep/17/mondaymediasection13
Did the police not tell Kate that admitting to the crime of hiding a body would only get her two years in prison? Again, not an unusual police tactic as far as I can gather...
-
Philomena McCann said;
"They tried to get Kate to confess to having accidentally killed Madeleine by offering her a deal through her lawyer,
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1562427/Kate-McCann-accused-of-killing-Madeleine.html
Like many things said about the McCann affair over the past days and months, the story was wrong. There was no offer of a plea bargain. It had all been "a misunderstanding", the McCann lawyer, Carlos Pinto de Abreu, explained the following day.
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2007/sep/17/mondaymediasection13
So he didn't deny it... He said there had been a misunderstanding
-
Did the police not tell Kate that admitting to the crime of hiding a body would only get her two years in prison? Again, not an unusual police tactic as far as I can gather...
Yes perhaps when the PJ said if she admiited a lesser crime she would only get two years... It was an explanation..... That's, where the misunderstanding was
-
So he didn't deny it... He said there had been a misunderstanding
From personal experience even lawyers can be wrong. So when Kate's lawyer is saying it was a misunderstanding he is admitting it was he who misunderstood the situation IMO.
-
From personal experience even lawyers can be wrong. So when Kate's lawyer is saying it was a misunderstanding he is admitting it was he who misunderstood the situation IMO.
IMO he is being diplomatic and an offer was made
-
IMO he is being diplomatic and an offer was made
Who made the offer? Describe how you think the situation played out?
-
So he didn't deny it... He said there had been a misunderstanding
There was no offer of a plea bargain. It had all been "a misunderstanding", the McCann lawyer, Carlos Pinto de Abreu, explained the following day.
In most people’s view that means he denied it.
-
Who made the offer? Describe how you think the situation played out?
The PJ explained that if Kate plraded guilty to hiding Maddie after an accident she would only get 2 years... But if she didn't and was found guilt of a more serious crime she could get a lot longer... It was, a bluff
-
There was no offer of a plea bargain. It had all been "a misunderstanding", the McCann lawyer, Carlos Pinto de Abreu, explained the following day.
In most people’s view that means he denied it.
In your opinion.... Are we not doing IMO any more
-
The PJ explained that if Kate plraded guilty to hiding Maddie after an accident she would only get 2 years... But if she didn't and was found guilt of a more serious crime she could get a lot longer... It was, a bluff
They are facts. You would get a longer sentence for one compared to the other.
-
Have you been to specsavers lately?
If you can find evidence in the files that the PJ bluffed in their interviews let's see it.
-
They are facts. You would get a longer sentence for one compared to the other.
You missed out... If you admit to a lesser crime... It then becomes an offer... Seems we had a... Misunderstanding
-
You missed out... If you admit to a lesser crime... It then becomes an offer... Seems we had a... Misunderstanding
And the bit about Gerry carrying on working while she takes a holiday.
-
They are facts. You would get a longer sentence for one compared to the other.
Perhaps Kate mistook her lawyer's advice about these facts for an offer from the PJ.
-
Perhaps Kate mistook her lawyer's advice about these facts for an offer from the PJ.
If only the PJ put the notes of the meeting in the file. More pages missing IMO.
-
If only the PJ put the notes of the meeting in the file. More pages missing IMO.
Or perhaps it never happened and it was just Pinto Dabreu giving Kate some advice and the PJ weren't involved at all.
-
Or perhaps it never happened and it was just Pinto Dabreu giving Kate some advice and the PJ weren't involved at all.
Or perhaps it did
-
In your opinion.... Are we not doing IMO any more
Not in that post.
-
Or perhaps it did
In the words of Amaral .... i'll have to find them sorry.
-
Or perhaps it did
Point to me evidence that it did happen apart from Kate McCann saying so. Please can I have an independent cite.
-
Point to me evidence that it did happen apart from Kate McCann saying so. Please can I have an independent cite.
Go and ask the PJ for their notes of that meeting.
-
Point to me evidence that it did happen apart from Kate McCann saying so. Please can I have an independent cite.
Point to where I said it did happen...I didnt... Point to where I said there was independent evidence.. I, didnt
You should only ask for a cite Re something I've claimed
-
Point to where I said it did happen...I didnt... Point to where I said there was independent evidence.. I, didnt
You should only ask for a cite Re something I've claimed
Here
The PJ explained that if Kate plraded guilty to hiding Maddie after an accident she would only get 2 years... But if she didn't and was found guilt of a more serious crime she could get a lot longer... It was, a bluff
-
Here
That was posted in response to Robs question... Yell me how it would have worked... It wad a hypothetical scenario
-
Who made the offer? Describe how you think the situation played out?
Describe how you THINK it played out... How I think dosen't need a cite
-
If you can find evidence in the files that the PJ bluffed in their interviews let's see it.
Why would the PJ admit to bluffing in the files? What would you expect to find if they had bluffed?
-
https://www.fairtrials.org/wp-content/uploads/Portugal-advice-note.pdf
4.3.
Pre-trials matters: Pleading guilty
Q26.
Can I plead guilty? What are the
consequences of pleading guilty?
There is no system of plea bargain in Portugal (i.e. you
cannot make a deal with the prosecutor and offer to
confess your guilt in exchange for a lesser sentence).
However, if you confess your guilt and show regret for
what you have done, this can be taken into account by
the court when it makes a decision on your sentence
-
https://www.fairtrials.org/wp-content/uploads/Portugal-advice-note.pdf
4.3.
Pre-trials matters: Pleading guilty
Q26.
Can I plead guilty? What are the
consequences of pleading guilty?
There is no system of plea bargain in Portugal (i.e. you
cannot make a deal with the prosecutor and offer to
confess your guilt in exchange for a lesser sentence).
However, if you confess your guilt and show regret for
what you have done, this can be taken into account by
the court when it makes a decision on your sentence
You can’t make a deal, but the police can point out that if you confess to one crime you may be better off than if they press ahead with charges for a more serious crime - IMO.
-
You can’t make a deal, but the police can point out that if you confess to one crime you may be better off than if they press ahead with charges for a more serious crime - IMO.
If you can provide evidence that such happened then your opinion is worthy of consideration; otherwise tis nowt but ineffectual chatter.
-
You can’t make a deal, but the police can point out that if you confess to one crime you may be better off than if they press ahead with charges for a more serious crime - IMO.
Isn't that exactly what Kate claimed?
-
If you can provide evidence that such happened then your opinion is worthy of consideration; otherwise tis nowt but ineffectual chatter.
The evidence is straight from the horse’s mouth so to speak, from the woman who was there, in her book. If you wish to dismiss it, that’s your choice.
-
The evidence is straight from the horse’s mouth so to speak, from the woman who was there, in her book. If you wish to dismiss it, that’s your choice.
An account in all likelihood never to be tested in a court of law imo.
-
Why would the PJ admit to bluffing in the files? What would you expect to find if they had bluffed?
I thought that's what we were discussing, not 'deals'.I think we've wandered.
-
What do you mean exactly? This was the interrogation conduted by Paiva immediately preceding her arguid interview, if that helps?
Are you saying that Paiva discussed evidence that might incriminate Kate BEFORE she was made an arguida?
-
Are you saying that Paiva discussed evidence that might incriminate Kate BEFORE she was made an arguida?
Read the book, I’m only relaying what’s written there.
-
Read the book, I’m only relaying what’s written there.
It would save us all so much time if you provided a cite.
-
It would save us all so much time if you provided a cite.
It’s taken from the chapter entitled ‘Arguidos’ - it’s what prompted Kate to mutter "f..king tosser" under her breath, surely you must have come across this before?
-
It’s taken from the chapter entitled ‘Arguidos’ - it’s what prompted Kate to mutter "f....ing tosser" under her breath, surely you must have come across this before?
So not pre-arguida but post-arguida.
Merci bien!
-
So not pre-arguida but post-arguida.
Merci bien!
The day before IIRC.
-
The day before IIRC.
We have just established it was post-arguida. As in NOT the day before.
-
We have just established it was post-arguida. As in NOT the day before.
Not from what I see here. OK looking at Kate's book it is on the day she was declared an arguido. Friday 7th September. http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/m_book.htm
-
Not from what I see here. OK looking at Kate's book it is on the day she was declared an arguido. Friday 7th September. http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/m_book.htm
After being questioned on 6th she went home accompanied by their lawyer. That's when the matter was discussed.
-
After being questioned on 6th she went home accompanied by their lawyer. That's when the matter was discussed.
I was looking specifically at the time she was saying "F.... tosser F.... tosser" only and that was on the 7th, as I understood her book.
-
I was looking specifically at the time she was saying "F.... tosser F.... tosser" only and that was on the 7th, as I understood her book.
After being questioned on 6th;
I left the station with Trish, Carlos and Sofia a little after 1am.,,,,,,Back at the villa, Carlos informed me, as Ferreira
had indicated, that he needed to speak to Gerry and me in private.......The PJ had a lot of ‘evidence’ against us, and I was certain to be made an arguida in the morning......If we, or rather I, admitted that Madeleine had died in an accident in the apartment, and confessed to having hidden and disposed of her body, the sentence I’d receive would be much more lenient: only two years, he said, as opposed to what I’d be looking at if I ended up being
charged with homicide. [madeleine]
-
After being questioned on 6th;
I left the station with Trish, Carlos and Sofia a little after 1am.,,,,,,Back at the villa, Carlos informed me, as Ferreira
had indicated, that he needed to speak to Gerry and me in private.......The PJ had a lot of ‘evidence’ against us, and I was certain to be made an arguida in the morning......If we, or rather I, admitted that Madeleine had died in an accident in the apartment, and confessed to having hidden and disposed of her body, the sentence I’d receive would be much more lenient: only two years, he said, as opposed to what I’d be looking at if I ended up being
charged with homicide. [madeleine]
So pre-arguida then. Incidentally is there a transcript of her interrogation on the 6th in the files?
-
After being questioned on 6th;
I left the station with Trish, Carlos and Sofia a little after 1am.,,,,,,Back at the villa, Carlos informed me, as Ferreira
had indicated, that he needed to speak to Gerry and me in private.......The PJ had a lot of ‘evidence’ against us, and I was certain to be made an arguida in the morning......If we, or rather I, admitted that Madeleine had died in an accident in the apartment, and confessed to having hidden and disposed of her body, the sentence I’d receive would be much more lenient: only two years, he said, as opposed to what I’d be looking at if I ended up being
charged with homicide. [madeleine]
as that reads it is Kate's lawyer who is convinced the PJ have a lot of "evidence" against them. Does she take that opportunity to say well there can't be?
Next paragraph is a definite denial.
"Pardon? I really wasn't sure I could possibly have heard him correctly. My incredulity turned to rage. How dare they suggest I lie? How dare they expect me to live with such a charge against my name?
And even more importantly, did they really expect me to confess to a crime they had made up, to falsely claim to the whole world that my daughter was dead, when the result would be that the whole world stopped looking for her?"
-
In 2008 5.000 pieces of information were not released after the archiving. They are still held under judicial secrecy. The McCanns have never expressed any desire to see them as far as I know. Why make such a fuss about the information which came in after the archiving but show no interest in the information gathered before it?
That seems to have become a pattern with the information gathered. We were also told that most of the information harvested from the helpline set up by the McCanns was never listened to never mind acted on.
-
That seems to have become a pattern with the information gathered. We were also told that most of the information harvested from the helpline set up by the McCanns was never listened to be them never mind acted on.
Cite please.
-
Cite please.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1231757/Madeleine-McCann-investigator-didnt-listen-ANY-tip-offs-given-hotline--squandered-500-000.html
-
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1231757/Madeleine-McCann-investigator-didnt-listen-ANY-tip-offs-given-hotline--squandered-500-000.html
That is not a reasonable answer to "most of the information harvested from the helpline set up by the McCanns was never listened to be them never mind acted on" as the people running the helpline were not the McCanns.
-
That is not a reasonable answer to "most of the information harvested from the helpline set up by the McCanns was never listened to be them never mind acted on" as the people running the helpline were not the McCanns.
Employed by them though,directly or indirectly.
-
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1231757/Madeleine-McCann-investigator-didnt-listen-ANY-tip-offs-given-hotline--squandered-500-000.html
So by "not listened to by them" you don't mean the McCanns themselves, but the people they entrusted (and paid) to sift through the calls and follow up on any viable leads. I see. Thanks.
-
Employed by them though,directly or indirectly.
Word the claim correctly then.
-
Employed by them though,directly or indirectly.
It is obvious that if Oakley didn’t listen to a single message then neither did the McCanns. Why didn’t they question the fact that absolutely no information was being passed on to them ?
-
That is not a reasonable answer to "most of the information harvested from the helpline set up by the McCanns was never listened to be them never mind acted on" as the people running the helpline were not the McCanns.
The Fund/McCanns paid these people, but never expressed any outrage about their failings. Unlike the outrage expressed about the alleged failings of Paiva, whom they didn't employ.
-
So by "not listened to by them" you don't mean the McCanns themselves, but the people they entrusted (and paid) to sift through the calls and follow up on any viable leads. I see. Thanks.
And when the people they paid came up with no viable leads don’t you think that should have been questioned?
-
And when the people they paid came up with no viable leads don’t you think that should have been questioned?
And you know they weren't how exactly?
-
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1231757/Madeleine-McCann-investigator-didnt-listen-ANY-tip-offs-given-hotline--squandered-500-000.html
Oh dear ... dredging the bottom of the barrel there I think ...
Snip
Kevin Halligen, who claimed to have experience in the British secret services, was arrested last week in an Oxford hotel after an FBI manhunt over an unrelated £1.3million fraud case in America.
His investigations company, Oakley International, was taken on in March last year by the Find Madeleine Fund and her parents Kate and Gerry McCann.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1231757/Madeleine-McCann-investigator-didnt-listen-ANY-tip-offs-given-hotline--squandered-500-000.html
... and one wonders why there might have been a loss of confidence in Oakley International for which the McCanns have been denigrated ??
-
And you know they weren't how exactly?
Because the practice went on for months and months. Besides Kate had ample opportunity in her book to detail how they took Oakley to task when no leads were being followed. Interestingly she didn’t. In fact when Oakley did come up with one important conclusion, that the Smithman lead should be followed rather than Tannerman they simply ignored their professional advice.
-
Oh dear ... dredging the bottom of the barrel there I think ...
Snip
Kevin Halligen, who claimed to have experience in the British secret services, was arrested last week in an Oxford hotel after an FBI manhunt over an unrelated £1.3million fraud case in America.
His investigations company, Oakley International, was taken on in March last year by the Find Madeleine Fund and her parents Kate and Gerry McCann.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1231757/Madeleine-McCann-investigator-didnt-listen-ANY-tip-offs-given-hotline--squandered-500-000.html
... and one wonders why there might have been a loss of confidence in Oakley International for which the McCanns have been denigrated ??
That’s the point. There seems to have been no loss of confidence in Oakley for months and months while there was no information coming forward.
-
That’s the point. There seems to have been no loss of confidence in Oakley for months and months while there was no information coming forward.
That statement requires a cite.
NB: Your opinion is inaccurate according to http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9960.msg479984#msg479984
I think you should amend your post to suit ... and remember to check your facts in future prior to posting on the forum.
-
Because the practice went on for months and months. Besides Kate had ample opportunity in her book to detail how they took Oakley to task when no leads were being followed. Interestingly she didn’t. In fact when Oakley did come up with one important conclusion, that the Smithman lead should be followed rather than Tannerman they simply ignored their professional advice.
"The first and second phases of the contract ran fairly smoothly. Oakley had put in place systems to gather, collate, prioritize and follow up the information coming in as a result of the appeals Gerry and I made around the first anniversary of Madeleine's abduction. There is little doubt that at that stage progress was being made.
During the third phase, however, we began to have concerns, Feedback appeared to be less forthcoming and contact with certain members of the Oakley team dropped off. At first we couldn't be sure whether this was a manifestation of the inevitble waning motivation I've mentioned or a more troubling problem. Rumours about Halligen prompted us to make enquiries before we decided whether or not we should extend our contract with Oakley. To cut a long story short we decided not to. The termination of the contract in September 2008 , was quite acrimonious, and unfortunately, that was not the end of it" - Kate from her book.
-
That’s the point. There seems to have been no loss of confidence in Oakley for months and months while there was no information coming forward.
Untrue as my previous post demonstrates.
-
That statement requires a cite.
From Madeleine.
‘We had one particularly bad experience with a man named Kevin Halligen (or Richard, as we knew him). Halligen was the CEO of a private-investigation firm called Oakley International which was hired by Madeleine’s Fund for six months from the end of March 2008. Oakley’s proposal and overall strategy were streets ahead of all the others we’d considered and the company came highly recommended. As the sums of money involved were pretty hefty, we agreed that our contract with them would be split into three phases with a break clause at the end of each phase. This gave us an opportunity to terminate the contract at any of these points if we wished to do so without incurring financial penalties. An independent consultant was also employed by the fund to liaise with Oakley and oversee the work they were doing.
The first and second phases of the contract ran fairly smoothly. Oakley had put in place systems to gather, collate, prioritize and follow up the information coming in as a result of appeals Gerry and I made around the first anniversary of Madeleine’s abduction. There is little doubt that at that stage progress was being made.’
According to the Mail none of the messages left on the helpline were being listened. Didn’t the McCanns question the lack of feedback ?
-
"The first and second phases of the contract ran fairly smoothly. Oakley had put in place systems to gather, collate, prioritize and follow up the information coming in as a result of the appeals Gerry and I made around the first anniversary of Madeleine's abduction. There is little doubt that at that stage progress was being made.
During the third phase, however, we began to have concerns, Feedback appeared to be less forthcoming and contact with certain members of the Oakley team dropped off. At first we couldn't be sure whether this was a manifestation of the inevitble waning motivation I've mentioned or a more troubling problem. Rumours about Halligen prompted us to make enquiries before we decided whether or not we should extend our contract with Oakley. To cut a long story short we decided not to. The termination of the contract in September 2008 , was quite acrimonious, and unfortunately, that was not the end of it" - Kate from her book.
Progress being made ? How ? No leads were being followed via the phone line and the files had only just been made public when everything went squiffy.
-
Progress being made ? How ? No leads were being followed via the phone line and the files had only just been made public when everything went squiffy.
You really will not accept when you have posted in error. In my opinion the McCanns appear to have sussed Halligan in 2008 ... long before the FBI got onto his case if what I have read of his lifestyle in America is accurate.
-
A cite needs to support the statement being made.
-
The evidence is straight from the horse’s mouth so to speak, from the woman who was there, in her book. If you wish to dismiss it, that’s your choice.
By that do you mean the policeman?
-
You really will not accept when you have posted in error. In my opinion the McCanns appear to have sussed Halligan in 2008 ... long before the FBI got onto his case if what I have read of his lifestyle in America is accurate.
No I do not accept that I’m wrong because I’m not. For, I assume, at least four months Oakley cannot have been passing anything of relevance to the directors of the fund. They were not listening to the phone calls from the helpline and the file was only made public in July, right about the time the directors are alleged to start having their doubts about Oakley so they could not have been following leads from that. So where was the ‘progress’ coming from that Kate claims ?
-
Progress being made ? How ? No leads were being followed via the phone line and the files had only just been made public when everything went squiffy.
Are you telling us that the McCanns knew that Halligen was deliberately not following leads or listening to calls?
-
By that do you mean the policeman?
No, did not the rest of my post give you a clue regarding who I meant?
-
No I do not accept that I’m wrong because I’m not. For, I assume, at least four months Oakley cannot have been passing anything of relevance to the directors of the fund. They were not listening to the phone calls from the helpline and the file was only made public in July, right about the time the directors are alleged to start having their doubts about Oakley so they could not have been following leads from that. So where was the ‘progress’ coming from that Kate claims ?
Kate explains what progress was made in her book, see quote above that both you and I have quoted. "Oakley had put in place systems to gather, collate, prioritize and follow up the information coming in as a result of the appeals Gerry and I made around the first anniversary of Madeleine's abduction" - that is the progress. The fact that he did not do anything with the information coming in is when the alarm bells started ringing. Does it really need spelling out?
-
Are you telling us that the McCanns knew that Halligen was deliberately not following leads or listening to calls?
They should have.
-
They should have.
When their suspicions were aroused they made enquiries and decided to terminate the contract. What else do you think they should have done?
-
When their suspicions were aroused they made enquiries and decided to terminate the contract. What else do you think they should have done?
Four months later !
-
Four months later !
How many months should they have given it then? What was Halligen feeding them in the meantime? He was a conman wasn't he? Isn't being good at stringing people along for as long as possible part of the job description?
-
How many months should they have given it then? What was Halligen feeding them in the meantime? He was a conman wasn't he? Isn't being good at stringing people along for as long as possible part of the job description?
It would appear so. Even very educated ones who are so desperate to have their daughter back that they don’t ask for evidence of progress for at least four months.
-
It would appear so. Even very educated ones who are so desperate to have their daughter back that they don’t ask for evidence of progress for at least four months.
You don’t know what they asked for or what they were told so don’t pretend you do.
-
You don’t know what they asked for or what they were told so don’t pretend you do.
Well they worked for the fund for four months and, according to Kate, were making progress. That suggests to me that they didn’t have a clue what was going on and didn’t ask.
-
Well they worked for the fund for four months and, according to Kate, were making progress. That suggests to me that they didn’t have a clue what was going on and didn’t ask.
Of course it would suggest that to you, you being a sceptic and all. When you have some actual evidence that the McCanns didn't know or didn't care what Halligen was up to in the first three months please post it.
-
Of course it would suggest that to you, you being a sceptic and all. When you have some actual evidence that the McCanns didn't know or didn't care what Halligen was up to in the first three months please post it.
Kate says that in the first two quarters of Oakley’s contract Oakley were making progress. The Mail article tells us that no phone calls left on the phone line set up to harvest information had been listened to by the PIs. The files had only been made public by the end of the second quarter of the contract. So where exactly was this ‘progress’ Kate was so keen about coming from ?
-
Kate says that in the first two quarters of Oakley’s contract Oakley were making progress. The Mail article tells us that no phone calls left on the phone line set up to harvest information had been listened to by the PIs. The files had only been made public by the end of the second quarter of the contract. So where exactly was this ‘progress’ Kate was so keen about coming from ?
I think VS is claiming that the process of setting these things up was the progress, not that that the case was progressed in an way.
Apologies to S if this is an incorrect interpretation.
-
I think VS is claiming that the process of setting these things up was the progress, not that that the case was progressed in an way.
Apologies to S if this is an incorrect interpretation.
Not according to Kate.
‘The first and second phases of the contract ran fairly smoothly. Oakley had put in place systems to gather, collate, prioritize and follow up the information coming in as a result of the appeals Gerry and I made around the first anniversary of Madeleine's abduction. There is little doubt that at that stage progress was being made.’
-
I think VS is claiming that the process of setting these things up was the progress, not that that the case was progressed in an way.
Apologies to S if this is an incorrect interpretation.
Precisely.
-
I'm glad you've sorted that out. Now back to a proper topic please.
-
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1847.msg58202#msg58202
"I don't think we can assume that because something does not appear in the police files, then it did not happen
Kate herself says that Portuguese authorities possess a great deal of material that is not included in the police file released into the public domain"
The forum didn't worry about cites in those days!
-
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1847.msg58202#msg58202
"I don't think we can assume that because something does not appear in the police files, then it did not happen
Kate herself says that Portuguese authorities possess a great deal of material that is not included in the police file released into the public domain"
The forum didn't worry about cites in those days!
I have had a quick search on google and I can't find any reference to Kate McCann saying that or anything like it so far.
-
I have had a quick search on google and I can't find any reference to Kate McCann saying that or anything like it so far.
It was posts such as that which led to cites being required. Many unsupported claims were made. Some were false, some had been misquoted. Then it was decided that those making the claim should provide the evidence to support it, rather than those reading it having to trawl the net to check it out. Unsupported claims were required to include imo.
-
It was posts such as that which led to cites being required. Many unsupported claims were made. Some were false, some had been misquoted. Then it was decided that those making the claim should provide the evidence to support it, rather than those reading it having to trawl the net to check it out. Unsupported claims were required to include imo.
I have had another look and still nothing. Of course it may exist but you are right without a cite it is meaningless.
Such a shame as I have read older threads and posts and taken posts on face value. Now I will check for cites in future.
Definitely better this requirements for cites
-
I have had a quick search on google and I can't find any reference to Kate McCann saying that or anything like it so far.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Gl1YDgqho6kC&pg=PA367&lpg=PA367&dq=Kate+herself+says+that+Portuguese+authorities+possess+a+great+deal+of+material+that+is+not+included+in+the+police+file+released+into+the+public+domain%22&source=bl&ots=1wCskItppe&sig=-E4OX-vWoQTB2gcbUjrqdPjRsxU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj5xY2F8f7cAhWJF8AKHf[Name removed]BM0Q6AEwAHoECAIQAQ#v=onepage&q=Kate%20herself%20says%20that%20Portuguese%20authorities%20possess%20a%20great%20deal%20of%20material%20that%20is%20not%20included%20in%20the%20police%20file%20released%20into%20the%20public%20domain%22&f=false
-
I have had another look and still nothing. Of course it may exist but you are right without a cite it is meaningless.
Such a shame as I have read older threads and posts and taken posts on face value. Now I will check for cites in future.
Definitely better this requirements for cites even if it makes more work for such as you Rob.
I find cites myself and ask for them when required.
It can be a mission to find the right cite.
-
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Gl1YDgqho6kC&pg=PA367&lpg=PA367&dq=Kate+herself+says+that+Portuguese+authorities+possess+a+great+deal+of+material+that+is+not+included+in+the+police+file+released+into+the+public+domain%22&source=bl&ots=1wCskItppe&sig=-E4OX-vWoQTB2gcbUjrqdPjRsxU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj5xY2F8f7cAhWJF8AKHf[Name removed]BM0Q6AEwAHoECAIQAQ#v=onepage&q=Kate%20herself%20says%20that%20Portuguese%20authorities%20possess%20a%20great%20deal%20of%20material%20that%20is%20not%20included%20in%20the%20police%20file%20released%20into%20the%20public%20domain%22&f=false
Thanks Misty. I see the quote in the top of the google book search but where is it on the page. it clearly isn't a quote from her book as it isn't in the first person singular i.e. "I" so where is the quote.
Could you help?
-
Thanks Misty. I see the quote in the top of the google book search but where is it on the page. it clearly isn't a quote from her book as it isn't in the first person singular i.e. "I" so where is the quote.
Could you help?
Reading that page, I was struck by the arrogance that assumed that they were entitled to have all this police data.
-
Thanks Misty. I see the quote in the top of the google book search but where is it on the page. it clearly isn't a quote from her book as it isn't in the first person singular i.e. "I" so where is the quote.
Could you help?
It may not express it word for word . Look at the yellow highlights.
-
Thanks Misty. I see the quote in the top of the google book search but where is it on the page. it clearly isn't a quote from her book as it isn't in the first person singular i.e. "I" so where is the quote.
Could you help?
It's highlighted on the page in yellow & is from Kate's own book madeleine.
I'm on a laptop - maybe you are on different type of device & the display is not the same?
-
Reading that page, I was struck by the arrogance that assumed that they were entitled to have all this police data.
Amazing.the difference in interpretation that.a different opinion can make.
I just see a mother looking for.any information that.could help find her missing child.
-
Amazing.the difference in interpretation that.a different opinion can make.
I just see a mother looking for.any information that.could help find her missing child.
That is true. How should that information be handled if the case is closed. Because Kate will never stop looking the OG has to basically continue or hand the information over to the McCanns. IMO.
-
Amazing.the difference in interpretation that.a different opinion can make.
I just see a mother looking for.any information that.could help find her missing child.
That may have been her view but I see it as an arrogant expression of entitlement.
-
That is true. How should that information be handled if the case is closed. Because Kate will never stop looking the OG has to basically continue or hand the information over to the McCanns.
No they don't. I doubt they will ever hand anything over as it would create a precedent regarding access to all police data
-
It's highlighted on the page in yellow & is from Kate's own book madeleine.
I'm on a laptop - maybe you are on different type of device & the display is not the same?
I am on a pc using internet explorer and I can't see any of the words apart from at the top in the search box. How weird.
I was using internet explorer not chrome. Tried chrome and it worked. Thanks misty. 8((()*/
-
That may have been her view but I see it as an arrogant expression of entitlement.
Most of the parents' entitlement was stifled by Portuguese Law & Judicial Secrecy. It must have been awful to be at the mercy of a system so very different to ours in the UK. IMO.
-
No they don't. I doubt they will ever hand anything over as it would create a precedent regarding access to all police data
Portugal has set a precedence, when they archive a case the file can be released. I'm not sure how it works in general.
It might be a good idea, allowing cases to be discussed openly after the case is archived.
-
I am on a pc using internet explorer and I can't see any of the words apart from at the top in the search box. How weird.
I was using internet explorer not chrome. Tried chrome and it worked. Thanks misty. 8((()*/
When that happens reload the page from the link.
-
Portugal has set a precedence, when they archive a case the file can be released. I'm not sure how it works in general.
It might be a good idea, allowing cases to be discussed openly after the case is archived.
This is a policy that seems peculiar to Portugal. We know that they haven't released all the data.
Britain has no such policy
-
That may have been her view but I see it as an arrogant expression of entitlement.
Please explain why Kate shouldn’t be entitled to see all the information pertaining to the disappearance of her OWN child, in a case which the police saw fit to shelve?
-
Please explain why Kate shouldn’t be entitled to see all the information pertaining to the disappearance of her OWN child, in a case which the police saw fit to shelve?
She is entitled only to what the authorities wish to give her. It doesn't matter what she thinks.
-
This is a policy that seems peculiar to Portugal. We know that they haven't released all the data.
Britain has no such policy
Change the UK policy then. Utilise the power of social media. Things can change.
-
She is entitled only to what the authorities wish to give her. It doesn't matter what she thinks.
Do you have this attitude to all authority?
Rather a subservient attitude.
-
Change the UK policy then. Utilise the power of social media. Things can change.
Dream on. These are decisions for Parliament, not for a few people with a misguided sense of importance.
-
Dream on. These are decisions for Parliament, not for a few people with a misguided sense of importance.
We did the census on line this year. I think things will change.
-
Do you have this attitude to all authority?
Rather a subservient attitude.
I try to be a law-abiding person 8)-)))
If you wish to bang your head against a brick wall then feel free.
-
When that happens reload the page from the link.
Will do next time, Thanks Rob.
-
I try to be a law-abiding person 8)-)))
If you wish to bang your head against a brick wall then feel free.
That might be an offence.
-
Will do next time, Thanks Rob.
Those Google book files open up many pages and it is easy to lose the place you are supposed to be looking for.
-
She is entitled only to what the authorities wish to give her. It doesn't matter what she thinks.
It matters to her and if she want to challenge the authorities why shouldn’t she, or do you believe everyone should pipe down and defer to the authorities no matter what?
-
It matters to her and if she want to challenge the authorities why shouldn’t she, or do you believe everyone should pipe down and defer to the authorities no matter what?
I'm really not interested in what she thinks she is entitled to.
-
Please explain why Kate shouldn’t be entitled to see all the information pertaining to the disappearance of her OWN child, in a case which the police saw fit to shelve?
Because she may still be suspected of being involved. In this country you can't ask for FOI's if police are investigating a suspected crime.
-
I try to be a law-abiding person 8)-)))
If you wish to bang your head against a brick wall then feel free.
Never broken any law but I would question authority if necessary.
Not would I hesitate to seek as much information as I could from any source if my child was missing.
-
I'm really not interested in what she thinks she is entitled to.
I sorry to hear that Jassi.
-
Amazing.the difference in interpretation that.a different opinion can make.
I just see a mother looking for.any information that.could help find her missing child.
Kate McCann may be a mother, but she's also reputedly a reasonably bright woman On what basis did she even imagine that she would be allowed to drive a coach and horses through judicial secrecy, data protection and the anonymity promised by Crimewatch? There's the future to consider too. People would be less likely to come forward, police would be liable to hide sensitive information, no-one would ring Crimestoppers. It was an unworkable idea.
-
Kate McCann may be a mother, but she's also reputedly a reasonably bright woman On what basis did she even imagine that she would be allowed to drive a coach and horses through judicial secrecy, data protection and the anonymity promised by Crimewatch? There's the future to consider too. People would be less likely to come forward, police would be liable to hide sensitive information, no-one would ring Crimestoppers. It was an unworkable idea.
Did anyone say "all the information"?
-
Kate McCann may be a mother, but she's also reputedly a reasonably bright woman On what basis did she even imagine that she would be allowed to drive a coach and horses through judicial secrecy, data protection and the anonymity promised by Crimewatch? There's the future to consider too. People would be less likely to come forward, police would be liable to hide sensitive information, no-one would ring Crimestoppers. It was an unworkable idea.
Possibly she didn't consider all these points you have raised.
I wouldn't if I wasn't trying to find my missing child.
-
Never broken any law but I would question authority if necessary.
Not would I hesitate to seek as much information as I could from any source if my child was missing.
I'm sure they already tried that through the medium of the Family Court with limited success
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/2164743/Madeleine-McCann-parents-court-bid-for-information.html
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id130.htm
-
Possibly she didn't consider all these points you have raised.
I wouldn't if I wasn't trying to find my missing child.
Well we know what happened last time she tried.
-
I'm sure they already tried that through the medium of the Family Court with limited success
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/2164743/Madeleine-McCann-parents-court-bid-for-information.html
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id130.htm
Exactly what I would do if my child was missing.
Look for any information I could find.
Do you think that is wrong?
-
Most of the parents' entitlement was stifled by Portuguese Law & Judicial Secrecy. It must have been awful to be at the mercy of a system so very different to ours in the UK. IMO.
Our system? what do you mean? they asked LP for access and this was denied. What kind of information were they seeking and what would they do with that information?
-
Well we know what happened last time she tried.
Sorry.
You need to explain your post.
-
Exactly what I would do if my child was missing.
Look for any information I could find.
Do you think that is wrong?
Its not a question of right or wrong, its what the law says she is entitled to see, not what she thinks she is entitled to.
-
Sorry.
You need to explain your post.
She just got a token number of files only.
-
She just got a token number of files only.
Information they already had, I believe.
-
Information they already had, I believe.
First time I've heard that.
-
First time I've heard that.
Information that came via the website.
-
Information that came via the website.
So generally accepted as being untrue then!
-
So generally accepted as being untrue then!
???
-
Possibly she didn't consider all these points you have raised.
I wouldn't if I wasn't trying to find my missing child.
Perhaps her advisers could have pointed out the ramifications. They weren't blinded by desperation I assume.
-
Because she may still be suspected of being involved. In this country you can't ask for FOI's if police are investigating a suspected crime.
The case was shelved and she was no longer an arguido.
-
Perhaps her advisers could have pointed out the ramifications. They weren't blinded by desperation I assume.
Yeah how dare she want all the information available in the case of her own missing child, what WAS she thinking?!
-
Yeah how dare she want all the information available in the case of her own missing child, what WAS she thinking?!
The Met would have to be careful of not allowing the perpetrator access to important information. Information released to Kate could fall into the wrong hands over time.
-
[Edited]
That isn’t bordering on libel.....
-
Perhaps her advisers could have pointed out the ramifications. They weren't blinded by desperation I assume.
Perhaps she went against her advisers advice.
Who knows?
-
Yeah how dare she want all the information available in the case of her own missing child, what WAS she thinking?!
Well of course. Forget the checks and balances and laws of two countries. Why not allow the relatives in any unsolved case to have all the evidence gathered by the authorities so they can all investigate the cases for themselves? If witnesses are harassed, identified or questioned by those with no legal right to do so it doesn't matter at all, does it? These people have the right to conduct their own investigations of the police stop doing it!!
-
That isn’t bordering on libel.....
It could well be a valid question in someone's opinion. Basically it was said in jest.
-
Well of course. Forget the checks and balances and laws of two countries. Why not allow the relatives in any unsolved case to have all the evidence gathered by the authorities so they can all investigate the cases for themselves? If witnesses are harassed, identified or questioned by those with no legal right to do so it doesn't matter at all, does it? These people have the right to conduct their own investigations of the police stop doing it!!
What is the oft heard sceptic mantra? “If I had been the McCanns I would have stayed in Portugal and knocked on every door until I found Madeleine!”. I take it this is a view you would regard as complete absurd then, considering what you have just written above or would it have been perfectly acceptable as long as they had had no access to any of the information collected by the police in advance?
-
What is the oft heard sceptic mantra? “If I had been the McCanns I would have stayed in Portugal and knocked on every door until I found Madeleine!”. I take it this is a view you would regard as complete absurd then, considering what you have just written above or would it have been perfectly acceptable as long as they had had no access to any of the information collected by the police in advance?
Personal searching is something locals would support, as the locals they did.
Completely different from asking police for all the information they have. Some may have been given by 'paid snitchers'. Your argument is woefully futile. You know it is.
-
What is the oft heard sceptic mantra? “If I had been the McCanns I would have stayed in Portugal and knocked on every door until I found Madeleine!”. I take it this is a view you would regard as complete absurd then, considering what you have just written above or would it have been perfectly acceptable as long as they had had no access to any of the information collected by the police in advance?
I'm so sorry. You seem to know more about sceptic mantras than I, a person labelled 'sceptic' do. Speaking for myself (the only person I ever speak for) I would not have stayed in Portugal as long as the McCanns did and I wouldn't have carried out any investigations. I would have relied on the UK police to keep me informed of anything I needed to know.
-
I'm so sorry. You seem to know more about sceptic mantras than I, a person labelled 'sceptic' do. Speaking for myself (the only person I ever speak for) I would not have stayed in Portugal as long as the McCanns did and I wouldn't have carried out any investigations. I would have relied on the UK police to keep me informed of anything I needed to know.
What, you wouldn’t have knocked on every door, and would have scarpered even earlier than the cowardly McCanns?! Shocking!
-
What, you wouldn’t have knocked on every door, and would have scarpered even earlier than the cowardly McCanns?! Shocking!
The salient point being made is: the McCanns were not knocking on doors or searching. They were jogging,blogging, doing the celebrity 'meet and greet- the good and the great. They set up a wee company, lived for free in MW accomodation. THEN... they were made suspects and the awkward questions were being asked... oh dear...
-
What, you wouldn’t have knocked on every door, and would have scarpered even earlier than the cowardly McCanns?! Shocking!
I think you might have done the same as me.
-
The salient point being made is: the McCanns were not knocking on doors or searching. They were jogging,blogging, doing the celebrity 'meet and greet- the good and the great. They set up a wee company, lived for free in MW accomodation. THEN... they were made suspects and the awkward questions were being asked... oh dear...
So not bothered at all that their daughter was missing, just taking advantage of the chance to live the good life and rake in the money.
.A fair summation of your post??
-
So not bothered at all that their daughter was missing, just taking advantage of the chance to live the good life and rake in the money.
.A fair summation of your post??
The case is still being discussed, I suppose that is a plus.
-
It could well be a valid question in someone's opinion. Basically it was said in jest.
It was also libellous.
-
Perhaps she went against her advisers advice.
Who knows?
We don't, but we know she quite rightly didn't get what she wanted.
-
I think you might have done the same as me.
Don’t presume to know what I would or wouldn’t have done, thank you.
-
Don’t presume to know what I would or wouldn’t have done, thank you.
Had G-unit said "You would have done this" I'd say that would be a presumption.
But G-unit said "I think you might have done the same as me."
Which is her opinion, that is all it is.