Author Topic: Do witness discrepancies point to lies or are they just improved memory?  (Read 33971 times)

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Offline gilet



The two first attenders (GNR) to the scene in PDL, officers José Maria Batista Roque and Nelson Filipe Pacheco da Costa made six statements in total. One each on 7th May, one each on 16th May and one each on 17th October.

At no point in the their first two statements did either of the two GNR officers mention either Kate or Gerry kneeling and putting their heads to the floor crying. Yet both recall in detail this event when questioned five months later.

It is even stranger because in May Jose Maria Batista Roque was specifically, “Urged to reveal other details that may be considered relevant to the investigation”. And his answer was “that he has no other knowledge of any elements that may help contribute to that end”. So the PJ officer questioning him at the time was not using closed questions but giving him the chance to offer any other details.

Later in October Roque describes two separate occurrences of this crying and claims that the crying was “a situation that seemed unusual to him”. Costa, referring to the kneeling and praying says in October that he “found it notable”. I find it odd that such unusual events would not have been mentioned in May.

Neither  officer so much as alluded to it in May but both recalled it in October as being notable or unusual.

And then we have another witness to these strange events who also fails completely in her first two statements to mention even one word about kneeling or praying yet later recalls it.

Silvia Batista was interviewed on the 7th and 15th of May but recalled nothing of the kneeling and praying. Only when further interviewed on 26th July did she happen to recall this odd event.

In fact she recalls it as the very first thing that she saw when she met up with the GNR officers at reception, “When she arrived at the officer's location she saw that behind them was Gerry, Madeleine's father, with another person but she does not remember who it was. At that time Gerry was on the ground on his knees, he hit the ground with both his hands, looking like an Arab at prayer, and emitted two screams of rage [fury, madness] but she could not understand what he said.”

So three witnesses all fail to recall such a strange (and in their words notable/unusual) part of the events of that night for months (each having undergone two separate police interviews in that period) and then each at their third interview manages to recall exactly the same thing happening.

Can anyone explain why it would only become so important to the story five months after the event, why it would have slipped their minds till then?  Is it clear from this that memory can improve over a period? Would that be similar to Jane Tanner?

Or should we, as many do with Jane Tanner, simply presume that such memory improvement does not exist and therefore all three of these people are simply lying?


Online Eleanor


Personally, I don't find Gerry's alleged actions at all strange, so quite possibly these people didn't either, in the beginning.
What is strange is that some months later, they did.  Maybe they mentioned it to someone in charge who thought that everyone would throw up their hands in horror at such a carry on.  Why on earth should two distraught parents behave like this?
Me?  I shudder to think of what sort of fool I might have made of myself.

Offline faithlilly

@ gilet

So let me get this straight. The police officers etc are not allowed to remember something later yet Dianne Webster, who was specifically asked, days after the disappearance, if she had seen Oldfield and said categorically no yet almost ten months later, and after the infamous Rothley meeting, she suddenly realises yes she did see him !
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

C.Edwards

  • Guest
For the police officers it's one of a number of cases. For the T9 it's one specific case.  Go figure.

C.Edwards

  • Guest
Ah.  So for the police officers in question there will have been a number of missing children cases in PdL, with all manner of parents behaving in different ways , which meant that they got a bit mixed up and forgetful,  but all suddenly remembered in a blinding flash 5 months later.  Thanks for the explanation CEdwards, it's all clear now. 8((()*/

And you wonder why I question your intelligence?

The police have many cases.  They don't have to be specifically the same in order to cause confusion in similarities in recall.  Any emotional adult would cloud their recall I'd have thought. 

Personally I doubt anyone's recall improving.  Recalling additional facts, yes. Improving details of existing facts, no.  Hence me not believing Gerry McCann for a minute changing his mind on which door he used.

Offline faithlilly

@ Martha

Oh don't be coy. We can all read the subtext of gilet's post.

Do you think the police officers and the translator have 'embellished' their statements ?
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline gilet

Ah.  So for the police officers in question there will have been a number of missing children cases in PdL, with all manner of parents behaving in different ways , which meant that they got a bit mixed up and forgetful,  but all suddenly remembered in a blinding flash 5 months later.  Thanks for the explanation CEdwards, it's all clear now. 8((()*/

And you wonder why I question your intelligence?

The police have many cases.  They don't have to be specifically the same in order to cause confusion in similarities in recall.  Any emotional adult would cloud their recall I'd have thought. 

Personally I doubt anyone's recall improving.  Recalling additional facts, yes. Improving details of existing facts, no.  Hence me not believing Gerry McCann for a minute changing his mind on which door he used.

No problem believing a couple of cops who suddenly remember a "notable/unusual" aspect of a case only a few months later having been interviewed twice before but you can't believe Gerry who was under the stress of having a child missing confusing a door (if it wasn't a translation error of course). Well, why does that not surprise me?

And while we are on the subject of memory, C.Edwards, I wonder if you would like to comment on your own strange memory quirk.

I refer to the fact that just a few days ago you were able to remember all kinds of details about satellite imagery (because of your super secret work on defence contracts which just happened to be dealing with satellites) but now you seem to have a complete memory lapse and are unable to remember anything with which to answer the questions posed to you on the subject. Memory is such a strange thing isn't it, but remembering and then conveniently forgetting really does seem peculiar.


C.Edwards

  • Guest
Ah.  So for the police officers in question there will have been a number of missing children cases in PdL, with all manner of parents behaving in different ways , which meant that they got a bit mixed up and forgetful,  but all suddenly remembered in a blinding flash 5 months later.  Thanks for the explanation CEdwards, it's all clear now. 8((()*/

And you wonder why I question your intelligence?

The police have many cases.  They don't have to be specifically the same in order to cause confusion in similarities in recall.  Any emotional adult would cloud their recall I'd have thought. 

Personally I doubt anyone's recall improving.  Recalling additional facts, yes. Improving details of existing facts, no.  Hence me not believing Gerry McCann for a minute changing his mind on which door he used.

No problem believing a couple of cops who suddenly remember a "notable/unusual" aspect of a case only a few months later having been interviewed twice before but you can't believe Gerry who was under the stress of having a child missing confusing a door (if it wasn't a translation error of course). Well, why does that not surprise me?

And while we are on the subject of memory, C.Edwards, I wonder if you would like to comment on your own strange memory quirk.

I refer to the fact that just a few days ago you were able to remember all kinds of details about satellite imagery (because of your super secret work on defence contracts which just happened to be dealing with satellites) but now you seem to have a complete memory lapse and are unable to remember anything with which to answer the questions posed to you on the subject. Memory is such a strange thing isn't it, but remembering and then conveniently forgetting really does seem peculiar.

I'm not a performing monkey here to pander to your whims.  I will comment where I want to and I make no such demands that others dance to my tune. I am well aware of what military surveillance satellites can do and I don't see any point in carrying on the discussion thanks. Kisses xxx

Offline Luz

The couple of cops were not a couple of cops, they were GNR, military personal, whose action is of vigilance and help in rural areas. They were called because a child was missing and their urgency was to recover a possible wandering child around a small village. They are not trained to investigate crimes or to deal with set up scenarios by quite a handfull of foreigners. That's why they called the PJ and only gave brief accounts of that nights call. Later when questioned, naturally they offered more details. Is that so difficult to understand?

But J.T. was interrogated by experts and was supposed to give a full and detailed account of the events of the evening. Why didn't she?

There is quite a difference between the 2 situations, I think.  8-)(--)

Online Eleanor


Jane Tanner was interrogated by Experts who couldn't even do a proper photofit.  I see.

Offline Luz


Jane Tanner was interrogated by Experts who couldn't even do a proper photofit.  I see.

The witness couldn't give a proper description...what could they do, be creative and invent a George Harrison or a monster like?!

Offline gilet

Ah.  So for the police officers in question there will have been a number of missing children cases in PdL, with all manner of parents behaving in different ways , which meant that they got a bit mixed up and forgetful,  but all suddenly remembered in a blinding flash 5 months later.  Thanks for the explanation CEdwards, it's all clear now. 8((()*/

And you wonder why I question your intelligence?

The police have many cases.  They don't have to be specifically the same in order to cause confusion in similarities in recall.  Any emotional adult would cloud their recall I'd have thought. 

Personally I doubt anyone's recall improving.  Recalling additional facts, yes. Improving details of existing facts, no.  Hence me not believing Gerry McCann for a minute changing his mind on which door he used.

No problem believing a couple of cops who suddenly remember a "notable/unusual" aspect of a case only a few months later having been interviewed twice before but you can't believe Gerry who was under the stress of having a child missing confusing a door (if it wasn't a translation error of course). Well, why does that not surprise me?

And while we are on the subject of memory, C.Edwards, I wonder if you would like to comment on your own strange memory quirk.

I refer to the fact that just a few days ago you were able to remember all kinds of details about satellite imagery (because of your super secret work on defence contracts which just happened to be dealing with satellites) but now you seem to have a complete memory lapse and are unable to remember anything with which to answer the questions posed to you on the subject. Memory is such a strange thing isn't it, but remembering and then conveniently forgetting really does seem peculiar.

I'm not a performing monkey here to pander to your whims.  I will comment where I want to and I make no such demands that others dance to my tune. I am well aware of what military surveillance satellites can do and I don't see any point in carrying on the discussion thanks. Kisses xxx

Quite. Because there are no examples whatsoever of them ever having been used in the way you claim. Its not a memory issue really is it as there is nothing to remember.

Offline gilet

The couple of cops were not a couple of cops, they were GNR, military personal, whose action is of vigilance and help in rural areas. They were called because a child was missing and their urgency was to recover a possible wandering child around a small village. They are not trained to investigate crimes or to deal with set up scenarios by quite a handfull of foreigners. That's why they called the PJ and only gave brief accounts of that nights call. Later when questioned, naturally they offered more details. Is that so difficult to understand?

But J.T. was interrogated by experts and was supposed to give a full and detailed account of the events of the evening. Why didn't she?

There is quite a difference between the 2 situations, I think.  8-)(--)

So the same experts (the PJ) who questioned Tanner did not manage to get the information out of the GNR (who are presumably at least given some training in observation) till the third interview. And of course these GNR officers were not supposed to give full and detailed accounts, thats why one of the PJ specifically asked was there anything more of importance to be said. I understand now. When GNR officers are asked to give full details its not expected that they will but when Tanner is asked...

It is only Tanner at fault here and not either of the GNR team or Silvia Batista (a senior person on the OC staff). Interesting.


Offline gilet


Jane Tanner was interrogated by Experts who couldn't even do a proper photofit.  I see.

The witness couldn't give a proper description...what could they do, be creative and invent a George Harrison or a monster like?!

Perhaps you have missed the bit in the files where it is explained that the PJ photofit "expert" was unable to make a representation of a side on view of the face which Jane Tanner was describing (quite naturally as the person was crossing her path rather than walking towards her.)?

The description was fine. It is just that the "expert" was not capable of interpreting it. It reminds me of the fact that Amaral also told us in his book that the photographers who were first on the scene did a poor job and that the fingerprint experts were not particularly competent. Interesting when you read everything carefully isn't it?
« Last Edit: April 19, 2013, 02:27:03 PM by gilet »

Offline Luz


Jane Tanner was interrogated by Experts who couldn't even do a proper photofit.  I see.

The witness couldn't give a proper description...what could they do, be creative and invent a George Harrison or a monster like?!

Perhaps you have missed the bit in the files where it is explained that the PJ photofit "expert" was unable to make a representation of a side on view of the face which Jane Tanner was describing (quite naturally as the person was crossing her path rather than walking towards her.)?

The description was fine. It is just that the "expert" was not capable of interpreting it. It reminds me of the fact that Amaral also told us in his book that the photographers who were first on the scene did a poor job and that the fingerprint experts were not particularly competent. Interesting when you read everything carefully isn't it?

You are wrong my dear, the description didn't give any details about a face in fact she first stated she was unable to see it. She only described a male figure with longish hair holding a bundle of clothes in his arms.

As for Amaral's book, yours must be different from mine. He admits a lot of mistakes but what do those have to do with JT's memory evolving through different images after the initial blur?