J B Campaign Ltd - Much Ado About Nothing...

[Holly Goodhead]

Holly, with respect, can you not see that Sheila was in no fit state to carry out such cold calculated murders all at the same time with all but one bullet finding their target?

To summarize:

* Sheila was not familiar with the rifle at all, its operation and loading etc...
* Sheila was under medication and subdued when last spoken with.
* Sheila was small in stature and of light build, she was not fit to overpower Nevill in a struggle.
* Sheila was forensically clean when found indicating she had not handled the rifle.
* Sheila had no cuts or bruises on her body aside from the two bullet holes.
* Hardly a hair out of place I believe the term used by David Boutflour.
* And all this was supposed to have taken place after 3pm and before police arrived on site?

Don't you think these facts are just a little odd for someone who was supposed to have carried out such a terrible crime?

My view is that the rifle is simple to operate and someone such as SC that was brought up on a farm, surrounded by firearms and those that use them, would be more than capable of operating such and shooting targets at close range ie about 1 foot away.  You might recall I visited a local gun shop and loaded the same bullets into the same mag.  Nothing could be simpler.  I didn't actually insert the mag into the rifle, chamber a round and pull the trigger but it's not rocket science.  I would honestly say it is a whole lot easier than using a range of other everyday equipment such as white goods, controls on cars, baby care equipment and so on.  Certainly easier than loading a battery into a say the tv remote whereby it is possible to insert the battery the wrong way round.  I would go as far as saying that even if you weren't brought up on a farm surrounded by firearms and those that use them you would easily figure it out.  I accept you and others don't share my views on this and that's fair enough.  It's a bit pointless getting into a debate along the lines of yes she could; no she couldn't.

Yes PB said SC was quiet when she spoke to her at circa 10pm on 6th Aug.  Others also said she was quiet such as CC on the drive from London to WHF.  Others, such as Len Foakes, said she appeared ok.  In any event I'm not sure whether she was quiet and subdued or not would prevent someone murdering with a rifle and taking their own life? 

SC wasn't particularly small in stature.  She was about 5' 7" tall that's about 2/3" taller than the average UK female.  Yes she was slim but not unhealthily so.  In any event if she was the perp she was at an advantage with a loaded rifle and I don't think stature comes into it.  NB was so badly injured upstairs that he was not capable of entering into a "violent struggle" in the kitchen with anyone. 

I'm not sure what you would expect to find on SC linking her with use of the rifle?  Whether she was murdered or took her own life imo this happened around the time the other victims lost their lives and some 4 hours before the raid team broke in:

GSR is subject to numerous variables.  It starts to dissipate after 1 - 3 hours.  The perp is more likely to test positive when a handgun is used.  Any movement can remove GSR.  SC's hands were not swabbed until PM at around 3pm after her hands had been placed in bags and her body obviously moved from soc to mortuary.  In any event I haven't seen any evidence that her hands were tested for GSR?

Lead on hands from loading bullets is fraught with the same issues as above due to delays in swabbing.  It seems there's a long history of issues with the handswabs in that the lab returned them initially due to potential problems with contamination.  They were eventually tested and the swabs taken from SC were shown to shower lower traces of lead than the testees hands who handled 18 bullets.  However the CoA doc refers to "similar" bullets used in the test and at trial the jury were told the "same" bullets were used.  It appears control swabs were not taken from testees to check lead levels before  handling the bullets.  If SC wiped or washed her hands then obviously this is just one of many unknown variables that could skew the results.  Certainly when I handled the bullets I was not aware of any residues on my hands either by look, feel or smell.  Although I did want to eat a sandwich a little bit later and used a hand sanitizer for fear of being poisoned by lead 

It is said SC's nightdress was "relatively clean" but I've no idea what exactly this means?  It is said the nightdress was checked for the presence of gun oil but why would gun oil be expected on her nightdress?  Afaik there's no forensic science that shows when someone fires a rifle they will end up with gun oil on their clothing?

Blood spatter could arise from victims gunshot wounds or the injuries NB sustained from a "blunt instrument".  But the blood on the rifle was insufficient for grouping so if this was the "blunt instrument" used to strike NB I don't think it would necessarily follow that the perp would be covered in blood spatter from this?  Again had there been a lot of blood spatter from the victims gunshot wounds then why was there so little blood on the rifle given the barrel was far closer to victims than the perp?  The blood on the rifle was described as splashes and smears.  Blood spatter from gunshot wound is described as a fine mist like spray.  You can see from the following book if it links to the correct page "There is no valid scientific basis to relate estimates or establish probabilities for the production of impact spatter resulting from gunshot".

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=8_fKBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA148&lpg=PA148&dq=MacDonnell+and+Brooks+gunshots+barrel+of+gun&source=bl&ots=BsKjA30yol&sig=f1pLI-d1mAM3mNDHVvmSpTpz2xA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjetMS94uTPAhWJLMAKHcEvCcwQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=MacDonnell%20and%20Brooks%20gunshots%20barrel%20of%20gun&f=false

Also the rifle was found resting on SC's body with her hand in contact meaning if there was an gun oil, gsr or blood spatter on rifle why were these things not found on her nightdress and hand?

Why would SC have any cut and bruises on her body?  There's no evidence anyone entered into any hand to hand combat with anyone.  I believe she beat NB with the "blunt instrument" probably the rifle but this was at a time after he had sustained 4 gunshot wounds 1 of which caused total impairment to his left arm. 

Hardly a hair out of place?  Why would there be?  Loading a rifle and firing it 25 times and possibly swinging the rifle around like a golf club a few time to beat NB. 

Yes I would say it all happened very quickly.  Personally I doubt SC was alive when the police turned up as I think she took her own life shortly after she shot the other victims.

[Holly Goodhead]

You never answered my earlier questions Holly but are some more.  Do you really think Julie made up the story about the tranquilisers that Jeremy asked her to get so that he could test them out on himself?  What about the 'I could have been an actor' comment made after the funeral, do you think she invented that too?

Maybe she invented Jeremy's involvement in the  robbery at Osea Caravan Park too?

And as for the hitman, did Jeremy Bamber not fill her head with this story in order to take the pressure of himself?

Lets be honest Holly, nobody in their right senses would invent such preposterous stories because they would be found out.

It seems JM went to her GP re issues stemming from her work placement.  It's not to clear to me whether this was anxiety or sleep problems or something else?  In any event it ended up being part of JM's WS about her claims JB planned to murder his family.  I've no idea whether it formed part of her trial testimony.  If it did then I would have thought the defence would have been entitled to access JM's medical records, interview the GP about the visit and check with a chemist the nature of the prescription.  As far as I can see we have no idea exactly what the issue was JM claimed to suffer or details of the prescription.  In any event surely anyone would realise that if they planned to drug 5 people this would show up at autopsy and subsequent toxicology tests?

What about the claims of "I could have been an actor"?  Was this at the funeral or when the pair met at Bourtree cottage and DS Jones claims he heard JB chuckle? 

No idea where the hitman story came from.  Did EP pile the pressure on JM telling her SC could not have killed herself due to lack of fingerprints on firearm and the two gsw's and she came up with the idea of MM due to his past and the rumours that surrounded him?  Who knows what went on at the self-contained flat the police arranged where she was supervised at all times and "encouraged" not to speak with anyone including her mother.  How long was she there for?  A very unhealthy situation I would say with a bunch of middle aged experienced male police officers and a just turned 21 year old female cut off from the outside world.   

Clearly not all JM's WS was BS but imo a lot of it is.   

[Myster]

snip...

What about the claims of "I could have been an actor"?  Was this at the funeral or when the pair met at Bourtree cottage and DS Jones claims he heard JB chuckle? 

Your memory's failing with all that booze you keep guzzling. It was at the cottage when he said "I should have been a bl**dy actor!"...

https://youtu.be/z8ecohGNFIM?t=14m39s

The bl**dy is optional.

[John]

My view is that the rifle is simple to operate and someone such as SC that was brought up on a farm, surrounded by firearms and those that use them, would be more than capable of operating such and shooting targets at close range ie about 1 foot away.  You might recall I visited a local gun shop and loaded the same bullets into the same mag.  Nothing could be simpler.  I didn't actually insert the mag into the rifle, chamber a round and pull the trigger but it's not rocket science.  I would honestly say it is a whole lot easier than using a range of other everyday equipment such as white goods, controls on cars, baby care equipment and so on.  Certainly easier than loading a battery into a say the tv remote whereby it is possible to insert the battery the wrong way round.  I would go as far as saying that even if you weren't brought up on a farm surrounded by firearms and those that use them you would easily figure it out.  I accept you and others don't share my views on this and that's fair enough.  It's a bit pointless getting into a debate along the lines of yes she could; no she couldn't.

That is simply not true Holly.  Most people brought up on farms never even see a gun let alone touch and operate one.  It is a fallacy that every farmer has a gun.

The truth is Sheila hated guns and hated them so much she would not let her sons play with toy guns.  Any person coming to a .22 rifle for the first time would struggle to operate it properly.

Fact is this weapon was used properly and used to direct aimed shots on target.

Had Sheila used that rifle her finger prints would have been all over it...they weren't!

[John]

Yes PB said SC was quiet when she spoke to her at circa 10pm on 6th Aug.  Others also said she was quiet such as CC on the drive from London to WHF.  Others, such as Len Foakes, said she appeared ok.  In any event I'm not sure whether she was quiet and subdued or not would prevent someone murdering with a rifle and taking their own life? 

SC wasn't particularly small in stature.  She was about 5' 7" tall that's about 2/3" taller than the average UK female.  Yes she was slim but not unhealthily so.  In any event if she was the perp she was at an advantage with a loaded rifle and I don't think stature comes into it.  NB was so badly injured upstairs that he was not capable of entering into a "violent struggle" in the kitchen with anyone.

Had Sheila been the shooter then the altercation would have taken place with Nevill in the master bedroom or nearby and not the kitchen. Nevill would have gone for her the moment the first shot was discharged.

The only reason the fight took place in the kitchen was that the shooter was able to control the situation.

[John]

It is said SC's nightdress was "relatively clean" but I've no idea what exactly this means?  It is said the nightdress was checked for the presence of gun oil but why would gun oil be expected on her nightdress?  Afaik there's no forensic science that shows when someone fires a rifle they will end up with gun oil on their clothing?

Blood spatter could arise from victims gunshot wounds or the injuries NB sustained from a "blunt instrument".  But the blood on the rifle was insufficient for grouping so if this was the "blunt instrument" used to strike NB I don't think it would necessarily follow that the perp would be covered in blood spatter from this?  Again had there been a lot of blood spatter from the victims gunshot wounds then why was there so little blood on the rifle given the barrel was far closer to victims than the perp?  The blood on the rifle was described as splashes and smears.  Blood spatter from gunshot wound is described as a fine mist like spray.  You can see from the following book if it links to the correct page "There is no valid scientific basis to relate estimates or establish probabilities for the production of impact spatter resulting from gunshot".

Also the rifle was found resting on SC's body with her hand in contact meaning if there was an gun oil, gsr or blood spatter on rifle why were these things not found on her nightdress and hand?

Had Sheila shot and killed everyone at very close range and then fought with Nevill over the kitchen table she would have had blood spatter on her, most probably gun shot residue and even had her clothing torn not to mention possibly having bruising on herself and broken finger/toenails.  None of this was found by those who examined her, as David Boutflour noted, not even a hair out of place.  It wasn't as if she showered and changed after the murderous spree was it?

[John]

Also the rifle was found resting on SC's body with her hand in contact meaning if there was an gun oil, gsr or blood spatter on rifle why were these things not found on her nightdress and hand?

Why would SC have any cut and bruises on her body?  There's no evidence anyone entered into any hand to hand combat with anyone.  I believe she beat NB with the "blunt instrument" probably the rifle but this was at a time after he had sustained 4 gunshot wounds 1 of which caused total impairment to his left arm. 

Had she shot herself with a rifle the crime scene would have been very different Holly.  You obviously don't understand the physiological process involved in suffering a gunshot wound.  The simple truth is that had Sheila shot herself she would not have been found lying with her hand beside the rifle.  In addition, there would have been blood on her fingertips and blood smearing across her throat following the first shot.  None of this was found making it an impossibility that she ever discharged these two shots.

Vanezis was furious when he saw the crimescene photos AFTER he had conducted the autopsy because what he was led to believe and what he was presented with in the morgue did not represent what was actually found by the first police officers to attend the scene.  What a mess!

[John]

It seems JM went to her GP re issues stemming from her work placement.  It's not to clear to me whether this was anxiety or sleep problems or something else?  In any event it ended up being part of JM's WS about her claims JB planned to murder his family.  I've no idea whether it formed part of her trial testimony.  If it did then I would have thought the defence would have been entitled to access JM's medical records, interview the GP about the visit and check with a chemist the nature of the prescription.  As far as I can see we have no idea exactly what the issue was JM claimed to suffer or details of the prescription.  In any event surely anyone would realise that if they planned to drug 5 people this would show up at autopsy and subsequent toxicology tests?

What about the claims of "I could have been an actor"?  Was this at the funeral or when the pair met at Bourtree cottage and DS Jones claims he heard JB chuckle? 

No idea where the hitman story came from.  Did EP pile the pressure on JM telling her SC could not have killed herself due to lack of fingerprints on firearm and the two gsw's and she came up with the idea of MM due to his past and the rumours that surrounded him?  Who knows what went on at the self-contained flat the police arranged where she was supervised at all times and "encouraged" not to speak with anyone including her mother.  How long was she there for?  A very unhealthy situation I would say with a bunch of middle aged experienced male police officers and a just turned 21 year old female cut off from the outside world.   

Clearly not all JM's WS was BS but imo a lot of it is.

Now you are simply grasping at straws.  It makes no difference what Julie reported in her 30+ page statement, it is what she said in court which counted.  Had she been making it all up it would have been clear to see in court during her examination and cross examination.  Julie had everything to lose by lying to police and that is why she cooperated fully with investigators.  The same cannot be said of Jeremy Bamber.

In the final analysis I'm afraid none of your arguments stand up to scrutiny Holly. 

[Mendoza]

Yes, Nevill DID have impairment to his left arm, due to having already been shot in the bedroom. Also severe injuries to his face and jaw which would have precluded him speaking on the phone. If he HAD tried to phone anyone, his blood would have been all over the receiver.  It wasn't,  and he didn't. 

Bamber is guilty as charged, and is where he belongs, IMHO.

[John]

Yes, Nevill DID have impairment to his left arm, due to having already been shot in the bedroom. Also severe injuries to his face and jaw which would have precluded him speaking on the phone. If he HAD tried to phone anyone, his blood would have been all over the receiver.  It wasn't,  and he didn't. 

Bamber is guilty as charged, and is where he belongs, IMHO.

I think the supporters argument would be that Sheila went upstairs and shot everyone while Nevill was supposedly on the phone.. Had that occurred however, Jeremy would have heard shots.

[Mendoza]

I think the supporters argument would be that Sheila went upstairs and shot everyone while Nevill was supposedly on the phone.. Had that occurred however, Jeremy would have heard shots.

Yes, and would have told the police that.
If Sheila had been responsible, Nevill would not have come back downstairs again, he would have overpowered Sheila upstairs.
Jeremy must have been utterly horrified that Nevill escaped despite 4 bullets in him, and made it to the kitchen. Jeremy had to stop him at all costs, hence the brutal beating.
Throw away the key!

[John]

Yes, and would have told the police that.
If Sheila had been responsible, Nevill would not have come back downstairs again, he would have overpowered Sheila upstairs.
Jeremy must have been utterly horrified that Nevill escaped despite 4 bullets in him, and made it to the kitchen. Jeremy had to stop him at all costs, hence the brutal beating.
Throw away the key!

I wholeheartedly agree Mendoza, Nevill would have nipped it in the bud had Sheila been the shooter.  The reason he was not able to do so was because his assailant was much stronger and more capable than he was thus why he tried to get help.

[puglove]

Yes, and would have told the police that.
If Sheila had been responsible, Nevill would not have come back downstairs again, he would have overpowered Sheila upstairs.
Jeremy must have been utterly horrified that Nevill escaped despite 4 bullets in him, and made it to the kitchen. Jeremy had to stop him at all costs, hence the brutal beating.
Throw away the key!

Fair play, Holl thinks that she's got something up her sleeve, and is confident that the tide will turn, but I'm equally confident that Bamber is guilty, a totally lost cause, and is mostly supported by nutters, dickwads, crooks and glory hunters. He's got as much chance of being released as I've got having dinner on the moon. With Justin Bieber. As Lord Lucan canters gently past on Shergar.

[puglove]

Fair play, Holl thinks that she's got something up her sleeve, and is confident that the tide will turn, but I'm equally confident that Bamber is guilty, a totally lost cause, and is mostly supported by nutters, dickwads, crooks and glory hunters. He's got as much chance of being released as I've got having dinner on the moon. With Justin Bieber. As Lord Lucan canters gently past on Shergar.

And it's a bit odd that "Roch" on the blue forum has suddenly come back as a greenhorn when he's been flogging the tits out of the case for the last 5 years. It doesn't work, Roch. You know almost as much as I do. Pull your snout out of Mike's arse.

Plus ca change.

[John]

Fair play, Holl thinks that she's got something up her sleeve, and is confident that the tide will turn, but I'm equally confident that Bamber is guilty, a totally lost cause, and is mostly supported by nutters, dickwads, crooks and glory hunters. He's got as much chance of being released as I've got having dinner on the moon. With Justin Bieber. As Lord Lucan canters gently past on Shergar.

I can understand Mike O'Brien getting involved but Michelle Diskin-Bates?