UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: Holly Goodhead on November 29, 2014, 12:52:34 PM
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I firmly believe NB did call JB on that fateful morning of 7th August 1985. However I am less sure that he used the words "Please come over..."
JB's WS dated 7th August 1985 : "Sheilas gone crazy she has got a gun"
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5631.0;attach=4566
MB's Log dated 7th August 1985 : "Daughter gone beserk" "Daugher Sheila Bamber aged 26 years has got hold of one of my guns"
(Sheila was in fact Sheila Caffell aged 28 years at the time of the tragedy)
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=177.0;attach=423
SM's WS dated 15th August 1985 : "Your sister has gone beserk and she has got a gun"
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5638.0;attach=4589
AE's WS dated 8th September 1985 : "Sheila has got the gun she has gone crazy"
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=2189
AE's WS is particularly interesting as AE states that JB made reference to "She's got the gun" in the presence of the police and they queried it. JB then corrected himself by saying "Sheila has got the gun she has gone crazy"
The COA document 2002 states the following:
7. The police were first alerted that something out of the ordinary had occurred when they received a telephone call from the appellant. The call was logged at 3.36 a.m. but there was evidence that made clear that it must have been at least 10 minutes earlier. The caller was the appellant and having given his name and address he said:
"You've got to help me. My father has rang me and said "Please come over. Your sister has gone crazy and has got the gun." Then the line went dead."
JB's audio clip in the Daily Mirror dated 31st January 2011 : "Please come over your sister has gone crazy and has the gun"
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/the-jeremy-bamber-files-exclusive-audio-191151
I know the trial testimony of some witnesses makes reference to "Please come over" but I haven't had a chance to go through them yet. West's trial testimony makes reference to "Please come over". To my mind he is the weak link in the communication chain. Firstly it was agreed by all concerned that he recorded the time incorrectly. Secondly it is clear from his trial testimony that he uses different words and in different sequences when referring to JB's tel con. I assume West made a WS but it isn't available here? It would be interesting to see what he says in that.
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Why are you questioning those three little words NB is supposed to have said when you can hear it straight from the horse's mouth? It can't be any plainer than...
... said Goodnight to everybody, got in my car, drove home. And I guess it was about 10pm by this time. I rang Julie... had a hot drink, I don't-I don't think I had anything to eat and I had a quick bath and watched TV 'till about midnight. At around 3.15/3.30 I was woken up by the phone and I only had one in my house and that was by the kitchen door downstairs. And when I answered it I recognised dad's voice and he said "Please come over... your sister has gone crazy and has the gun" .
The call ended, although, I don't recall specifically hearing the dial tone, but I was still half asleep, I'd only just woken up to hear this, and so I rang dad back 'cause I thought you know I need more information.. what, where, how, you know what do you need me to do, how can I... and I specifically remember getting the engaged tone because I then pressed the last number redial at least twice more and both times got the engaged tone... and that's when I rang the police.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/the-jeremy-bamber-files-exclusive-audio-191151 (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/the-jeremy-bamber-files-exclusive-audio-191151)
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Why are you questioning those three little words NB is supposed to have said when you can hear it straight from the horse's mouth? It can't be any plainer than...
... said Goodnight to everybody, got in my car, drove home. And I guess it was about 10pm by this time. I rang Julie... had a hot drink, I don't-I don't think I had anything to eat and I had a quick bath and watched TV 'till about midnight. At around 3.15/3.30 I was woken up by the phone and I only had one in my house and that was by the kitchen door downstairs. And when I answered it I recognised dad's voice and he said "Please come over... your sister has gone crazy and has the gun" .
The call ended, although, I don't recall specifically hearing the dial tone, but I was still half asleep, I'd only just woken up to hear this, and so I rang dad back 'cause I thought you know I need more information.. what, where, how, you know what do you need me to do, how can I... and I specifically remember getting the engaged tone because I then pressed the last number redial at least twice more and both times got the engaged tone... and that's when I rang the police.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/the-jeremy-bamber-files-exclusive-audio-191151 (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/the-jeremy-bamber-files-exclusive-audio-191151)
Neville must have said 'please come over'. After all Jeremy 'immediately' rang the police. Well 26 minutes later.
If Neville had not said 'please come over', how was Jeremy supposed to realise that Neville needed him at 3.10am ? Sheila may have just gone crazy with the water pistol.
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Why are you questioning those three little words NB is supposed to have said when you can hear it straight from the horse's mouth? It can't be any plainer than...
... said Goodnight to everybody, got in my car, drove home. And I guess it was around 10pm. by this time. I rang Julie... had a hot drink, I don't-I don't think I had anything to eat and had a quick bath and watched TV 'till about midnight. At around 3.15/3.30 I was woken up by the phone and I only had one in my house and that was by the kitchen door downstairs. And when I answered it I recognised dad's voice and he said "Please come over... your sister has gone crazy and has the gun" .
The call ended, although, I don't recall specifically hearing the dial tone, but I was still half asleep, I'd only just woken up to hear this, and so I rang dad back 'cause I thought you know I need more information.. what, where, how, you know what do you need me to do, how can I... and I specifically remember getting the engaged tone because I then pressed the last number redial at least twice more and both times got the engaged tone... and that's when I rang the police.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/the-jeremy-bamber-files-exclusive-audio-191151 (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/the-jeremy-bamber-files-exclusive-audio-191151)
Yes I made reference to JB's audio clip (2011) in the OP but why did he not mention "Please come over" in his original WS (1985)? Or when discussing with AE and she also overheard him speaking with EP where JB made no ref to "Please come over"? Why did Malcolm Bonnet not make ref to it in his log? Or SM in his WS? I am inclined to think it was innocently thrown in by West who imo seemed unreliable insofar as listening and accurately recording details go. And it has taken on a life of its own with JB blindly following. Perhaps not really seeing the significance. Or perhaps the significance only exists in my mind! &%+((£
Based on CC's book it seems NB and June preferred to keep the severity of SC's mental illness private to the extent that it appears the extended family were kept in the dark including June's sister, PB. This being the case to my mind it would limit NB's choices as to who he could call locally eg I have seen posters ask why NB would not call the Foakes, relatives or others. If they were unaware that there was anything seriously wrong with SC to suddenly get a call from NB at circa 3am saying "Sheila's gone crazy she got the gun" they are more likely to ask questions eg 'Sheila who?' 'What do you mean she's gone crazy?' 'Where are you'?
Excerpt from CC's book
"One of the most striking things about that day, although not altogether surprising for me, was the fact that, the more I talked to June and Nevill's relations, the more I realised none of them actually knew anything had been seriously wrong with Bambs - not even June's sister Pam. Many of them said that had they known, they would have been more than willing to help and share the burden. Why hadn't I contacted them and told them all about it? I couldn't believe what I was hearing and could only reply by saying that I didn't feel it had been my business to betray the Bamber's confidence. They were very private people whose decisions I had to respect - whether right or wrong. These people had no idea how much I'd need them as allies to convince June and Nevill of how strongly I felt Bamb's treatment should have been changed".
JB may have been the only local person who was aware of the severity of SC's mental illness. Obviously others were aware in London/Northampton eg CC, FE, SC's friends and neighbours, doctors, Dr F etc but it would appear no one locally.
If NB called 999 it would not be a quick call (or not as quick as saying to JB "Sheila's gone crazy she's got a gun) as he would need to give:
- his full name
- full postal address
- tel number ?
- brief outline of the situation
If NB did call JB but didn't say "Please come over" just "Sheilas gone crazy and shes got a gun" and then the line went dead it seems more logical that JB would attempt to recall NB to clarify what action he wanted JB to take. And perhaps accounts for JB appearing indecisive as to what action he should take eg call the police, go over or what? Calling JM to seek her opinion. Phoning local police instead of 999.
Myster I am sure you will tell me, albeit very nicely, to stop being silly and there was no phone call 8)><( 8)><( 8)><(
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Just flicked thru' JB's police interviews and no mention is made of "Please come over". It appears to me EP were trying to create inconsistencies in JB's version of events and attempting to tie JB in knots over whether JB called EP first or JM. Therefore if there were variations in EP WS's eg West's/Bonnetts and JB's why was JB not grilled over omitting "Please come over" in his WS during his police interviews?
When did "Please come over" first come into the equation? And who was the originator?
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http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/how-and-why-did-sheila-do-it/Mirrorcoverandinside05.08.100002.jpg
This link is on the Official Site.
It is on the front page of the The Mirror in 2010. Which I assume Jeremy & his team told them about. It says Neville said 'Please come over'.
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As previously said, it does seem strange that Neville would ring Jeremy. Then not introduce himself. Then not make a request like 'please come over'.
He had time to make the call, so surely enough time to say 'it's dad, please come over'. These would be the first things he would say.
If Neville did not say this, Jeremy knew Sheila was a 'nutter', 'looney', 'psychotic depressive' & 'do lally'. And had just been told at 3.10am she had 'gone crazy' & 'got the gun'. Not sure what other hints he would need.
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Yes I made reference to JB's audio clip (2011) in the OP but why did he not mention "Please come over" in his original WS (1985)? Or when discussing with AE and she also overheard him speaking with EP where JB made no ref to "Please come over"? Why did Malcolm Bonnet not make ref to it in his log? Or SM in his WS? I am inclined to think it was innocently thrown in by West who imo seemed unreliable insofar as listening and accurately recording details go. And it has taken on a life of its own with JB blindly following. Perhaps not really seeing the significance. Or perhaps the significance only exists in my mind! &%+((£
Based on CC's book it seems NB and June preferred to keep the severity of SC's mental illness private to the extent that it appears the extended family were kept in the dark including June's sister, PB. This being the case to my mind it would limit NB's choices as to who he could call locally eg I have seen posters ask why NB would not call the Foakes, relatives or others. If they were unaware that there was anything seriously wrong with SC to suddenly get a call from NB at circa 3am saying "Sheila's gone crazy she got the gun" they are more likely to ask questions eg 'Sheila who?' 'What do you mean she's gone crazy?' 'Where are you'?
Excerpt from CC's book
"One of the most striking things about that day, although not altogether surprising for me, was the fact that, the more I talked to June and Nevill's relations, the more I realised none of them actually knew anything had been seriously wrong with Bambs - not even June's sister Pam. Many of them said that had they known, they would have been more than willing to help and share the burden. Why hadn't I contacted them and told them all about it? I couldn't believe what I was hearing and could only reply by saying that I didn't feel it had been my business to betray the Bamber's confidence. They were very private people whose decisions I had to respect - whether right or wrong. These people had no idea how much I'd need them as allies to convince June and Nevill of how strongly I felt Bamb's treatment should have been changed".
JB may have been the only local person who was aware of the severity of SC's mental illness. Obviously others were aware in London/Northampton eg CC, FE, SC's friends and neighbours, doctors, Dr F etc but it would appear no one locally.
If NB called 999 it would not be a quick call (or not as quick as saying to JB "Sheila's gone crazy she's got a gun) as he would need to give:
- his full name
- full postal address
- tel number ?
- brief outline of the situation
If NB did call JB but didn't say "Please come over" just "Sheilas gone crazy and shes got a gun" and then the line went dead it seems more logical that JB would attempt to recall NB to clarify what action he wanted JB to take. And perhaps accounts for JB appearing indecisive as to what action he should take eg call the police, go over or what? Calling JM to seek her opinion. Phoning local police instead of 999.
Myster I am sure you will tell me, albeit very nicely, to stop being silly and there was no phone call 8)><( 8)><( 8)><(
Stop being silly, there was no phone call. 8)-)))
I just can't envisage a moment when Ralph could risk making a call if Sheila HAD A GUN (and according to Bamber she did). Ralph's priority would have been to take the gun out of Sheila's hands, whether she'd "gone crazy" or was just sitting and thoughtfully stroking the bloody thing. If Sheila WAS just holding it or waving it about, Ralph could have taken it from her and made it safe. If Sheila had started shooting upstairs, Ralph couldn't really leave her to get on with it while he went to the kitchen and the phone. Even if he thought that all was lost and June and the boys were dead, if Ralph could get to the kitchen he could get to the door and run outside to the nearest cottage, maybe even make it to his car. I doubt if he would waste precious moments hoping that Bamber would answer his phone.
I hope this makes sense, Holl. The phone call just doesn't work for me, it never has.
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http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/how-and-why-did-sheila-do-it/Mirrorcoverandinside05.08.100002.jpg
This link is on the Official Site.
It is on the front page of the The Mirror in 2010. Which I assume Jeremy & his team told them about. It says Neville said 'Please come over'.
Oh well it must be right then 8(0(*
But that was 2010. Why was there no mention of "Please come over" pre trial? It seems to have appeared at trial and continued post trial? I have now re read JB's police interviews and as far as I can see there's no ref to "Please come over". Wests WS and Bonnett's log are dated pre JB's interviews so why did EP not seize on any inconsistency? And more importantly why didn't the prosecution or defence pick up on this and cross examine/use to their advantage. Imo it is a very important point and potentially puts the phone calls in a different light.
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As previously said, it does seem strange that Neville would ring Jeremy. Then not introduce himself. Then not make a request like 'please come over'.
He had time to make the call, so surely enough time to say 'it's dad, please come over'. These would be the first things he would say.
If Neville did not say this, Jeremy knew Sheila was a 'nutter', 'looney', 'psychotic depressive' & 'do lally'. And had just been told at 3.10am she had 'gone crazy' & 'got the gun'. Not sure what other hints he would need.
Adam I'm not sure that JB used all these derogatory terms in connection with SC's mental illness which were commonly used at that time. Are you able to provide a source for "do lally"?
What do people say in distress calls? May day calls etc? JB claims there was a pause of a few seconds before NB spoke.
When you say "not sure what other hints he would need" I'm not sure what you mean?
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Stop being silly, there was no phone call. 8)-)))
I just can't envisage a moment when Ralph could risk making a call if Sheila HAD A GUN (and according to Bamber she did). Ralph's priority would have been to take the gun out of Sheila's hands, whether she'd "gone crazy" or was just sitting and thoughtfully stroking the bloody thing. If Sheila WAS just holding it or waving it about, Ralph could have taken it from her and made it safe. If Sheila had started shooting upstairs, Ralph couldn't really leave her to get on with it while he went to the kitchen and the phone. Even if he thought that all was lost and June and the boys were dead, if Ralph could get to the kitchen he could get to the door and run outside to the nearest cottage, maybe even make it to his car. I doubt if he would waste precious moments hoping that Bamber would answer his phone.
I hope this makes sense, Holl. The phone call just doesn't work for me, it never has.
But if SC was threatening to shoot herself with the gun holding it under her chin or holding it at NB at point blank range with her finger on the trigger I am not so sure he would feel confident in his ability to disarm her &%+((£ NB was military trained and being a WW2 RAF pilot was likely to be brave in the face of adversity but it may be that he was not just concerned for his own safety but SC's too and also if he should be injured that SC was still left with a loaded firearm and June and the twins.
Why did EP call out FSU? Why not just send in an unarmed officer to disarm SC if it was that easy?
See ya later for some Munch Mega Flaming Hot 8(0(* X
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So why would NB call for his son's help to disarm her, when that very morning Jeremy Bamber told police they "didn't like each other and never got on"? He'd be more likely to exacerbate the situation and end up dead himself, rather than calm it down. JB was on a Sheila's scary and dangerous wind-up with Messrs Bews and Myall, so it's no wonder they scarpered for cover to call for TFU support.
I'll pray for you tonight to see the light, Holy Godhead... otherwise this missionary position of yours is gonna become permanent.
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So why would NB call for his son's help to disarm her, when that very morning Jeremy Bamber told police they "didn't like each other and never got on"? He'd be more likely to exacerbate the situation and end up dead himself, rather than calm it down. JB was on a Sheila's scary and dangerous wind-up with Messrs Bews and Myall, so it's no wonder they scarpered for cover to call for TFU support.
I'll pray for you tonight to see the light, Holy Godhead... otherwise this missionary position of yours is gonna become permanent.
Why do you guys still argue over Bamber? Hasnt he had every opportunity to prove his innocence and has summarily failed to do so. Yawn
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Why do you guys still argue over Bamber? Hasnt he had every opportunity to prove his innocence and has summarily failed to do so. Yawn
Don't look at me... Holly's the argumentative one. I'm just trying to steer her on the righteous path.
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Come on Holly, you strike me as an intelligent lass so why do you persist with your Bamber might be innocent theme? Dont you think it would have been established by now had there been the slightest doubt in his conviction?
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So why would NB call for his son's help to disarm her, when that very morning Jeremy Bamber told police they "didn't like each other and never got on"? He'd be more likely to exacerbate the situation and end up dead himself, rather than calm it down. JB was on a Sheila's scary and dangerous wind-up with Messrs Bews and Myall, so it's no wonder they scarpered for cover to call for TFU support.
I'll pray for you tonight to see the light, Holy Godhead... otherwise this missionary position of yours is gonna become permanent.
As far as I can see it is doubtful NB said "Please come over". On the assumption NB made the call and said "Sheilas gone crazy shes got a gun" what did he mean by this? It doesn't necessarily follow it was a green light for JB to go over?
If posters think NB was capable of disarming SC in possession of a loaded firearm why do they also appear to believe the likes of Messrs Bews and Myall would be scared and request FSU? Why when the FSU arrived did they wait until daylight to storm WHF?
So long as I've still got a free hand to continue mass debating 8(0(*
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I notice you are on a mission Holly, what is it?
ps police will always wait for daylight.
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Come on Holly, you strike me as an intelligent lass so why do you persist with your Bamber might be innocent theme? Dont you think it would have been established by now had there been the slightest doubt in his conviction?
Because I do genuinely believe JB to be the victim of a MoJ and think he's innocent Matthew. I would never argue as in ARGUE about it as I respect the views of others and I'm in a minority over this not just on this forum but generally too. Plus of course I might have called it wrong, very wrong but I don't think so!
I think the WHF case has a number of complex 'perfect storms' but I remain convinced that JB's conviction will eventually be quashed on the basis that it is unsafe. It will make no difference what anyone says or does on these forums. It will be down to JB's lawyers, CCRC and CoA. No idea who JB's new lawyers are?
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Because I do genuinely believe JB to be the victim of a MoJ and think he's innocent Matthew. I would never argue as in ARGUE about it as I respect the views of others and I'm in a minority over this not just on this forum but generally too. Plus of course I might have called it wrong, very wrong but I don't think so!
I think the WHF case has a number of complex 'perfect storms' but I remain convinced that JB's conviction will eventually be quashed on the basis that it is unsafe. It will make no difference what anyone says or does on these forums. It will be down to JB's lawyers, CCRC and CoA. No idea who JB's new lawyers are?
Have you any smoking gun evidence to back up your hunch? My own view is that there is nothing unsafe at all about his conviction, the guilty evidence from what I have read is very damming.
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But if SC was threatening to shoot herself with the gun holding it under her chin or holding it at NB at point blank range with her finger on the trigger I am not so sure he would feel confident in his ability to disarm her &%+((£ NB was military trained and being a WW2 RAF pilot was likely to be brave in the face of adversity but it may be that he was not just concerned for his own safety but SC's too and also if he should be injured that SC was still left with a loaded firearm and June and the twins.
Why did EP call out FSU? Why not just send in an unarmed officer to disarm SC if it was that easy?
See ya later for some Munch Mega Flaming Hot 8(0(* X
I doubt if Ralph would have felt confident that he could disarm Sheila, but I think he would have felt utter desperation that he HAD to, as long as he was physically capable. I think he would have tried anything - kicking her legs from under her, throwing something at her - she wouldn't have had the element of suprise that I'm assuming Bamber did when he burst into the bedroom, thinking that he could kill Ralph and June in bed but overestimating the power of the rifle.
It's back to the old question - what do you think Sheila was doing while Ralph phoned Bamber? &%+((£
(If you don't like that question, you can have this one. Who do you think has got the best bangers, me or Andy? It's actually Andy. It really is. 8)><( )
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Why do you guys still argue over Bamber? Hasnt he had every opportunity to prove his innocence and has summarily failed to do so. Yawn
I have no idea why we still do this, Matthew. I've got some seriously bad habits, but this is by far my worst one. 8(8-))
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I doubt if Ralph would have felt confident that he could disarm Sheila, but I think he would have felt utter desperation that he HAD to, as long as he was physically capable. I think he would have tried anything - kicking her legs from under her, throwing something at her - she wouldn't have had the element of suprise that I'm assuming Bamber did when he burst into the bedroom, thinking that he could kill Ralph and June in bed but overestimating the power of the rifle.
It's back to the old question - what do you think Sheila was doing while Ralph phoned Bamber? &%+((£
(If you don't like that question, you can have this one. Who do you think has got the best bangers, me or Andy? It's actually Andy. It really is. 8)><( )
I don't know what SC was doing if/when NB phoned JB. Here's what FE said in a similar situation:
“During the call the phone went dead. Sheila suddenly became hysterical, mumbling about the phone being bugged. She became like someone possessed ranting and raving. She was striking herself and beating the wall with her fists. I tried to calm her but she did not seem to hear me. I became extremely frightened not only for her but for myself. She kept talking about the Devil and God, and stated that God was sitting opposite her and unlike what her step mother said he in fact loved her. I contacted her ex-mother in law and asked her to come round. This aggravated the situation and Sheila became even more violent and abusive. Her mother in law called and found a prescription for Sheila’s drugs and asked me to get them for her. I went to the chemist and when I retuned I was met at the front door by the mother in law who was leaving. She told me Sheila had kicked her out. I went in and tried to pacify Sheila but was unable to do so. I became extremely concerned for my own safety. I telephoned Sheila’s Doctor and a short while later one of her partners arrived. Sheila refused to let him examine her shouting that he was trying to poison her. By this time she had become completely irrational. The doctor eventually left without being able to do anything. Being unable to do anything I contacted another doctor who arrived shortly afterwards. Again he was unable to do anything because Sheila would not allow him near her".
If NB made the call was SC aware? See FE's experience above. Bearing in mind it was only dialling 4 digits (WHF to Goldhanger) and potentially "Sheilas gone crazy shes got the gun". If it was the first time NB had witnessed SC in such a state if was probably very upsetting for him to witness first hand how unwell she was.
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I doubt if Ralph would have felt confident that he could disarm Sheila, but I think he would have felt utter desperation that he HAD to, as long as he was physically capable. I think he would have tried anything - kicking her legs from under her, throwing something at her - she wouldn't have had the element of suprise that I'm assuming Bamber did when he burst into the bedroom, thinking that he could kill Ralph and June in bed but overestimating the power of the rifle.
It's back to the old question - what do you think Sheila was doing while Ralph phoned Bamber? &%+((£
(If you don't like that question, you can have this one. Who do you think has got the best bangers, me or Andy? It's actually Andy. It really is. 8)><( )
Well Neville was 6.4. According to Barbara Wilson, he could disarm Sheila with one arm. Ann Eaton also said he would disarm her, perhaps by picking up a chair.
Sheila must have been fairly placid when Neville had the option of either trying to disarm her, or spend several minutes phoning Jeremy. I know what I would rather do.
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Adam I'm not sure that JB used all these derogatory terms in connection with SC's mental illness which were commonly used at that time. Are you able to provide a source for "do lally"?
What do people say in distress calls? May day calls etc? JB claims there was a pause of a few seconds before NB spoke.
When you say "not sure what other hints he would need" I'm not sure what you mean?
The source for 'do lally' is in one of the police officers WS.
Another officer also testified that Jeremy said Sheila had committed child abuse on the twins. Jeremy said he had not reported this.
After the massacre he told Liz Rimmington that Sheila was going to be sent to the 'nut house' and that he was the only one who knew this.
Hints, I assumed this thread was to justify Jeremy's long delay after Neville's call. By saying Neville did not say 'please come over'. If Neville rings at 3.10am mentioning guns & a crazy Sheila, I thought Jeremy would be able to put 2 and 2 together.
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I notice you are on a mission Holly, what is it?
ps police will always wait for daylight.
Lol...I'm on a mission with the SS as in Secret Seven the child detectives from the Enid Blyton series ?>)()< They were my fave childhood books 8)-))) I'm sort of living the dream and trying to resolve a real life true crime 8)-)))
That's what my avatar and "On a mission" is all about 8)-)))
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Well Neville was 6.4. According to Barbara Wilson, he could disarm Sheila with one arm. Ann Eaton also said he would disarm her, perhaps by picking up a chair.
Sheila must have been fairly placid when Neville had the option of either trying to disarm her, or spend several minutes phoning Jeremy. I know what I would rather do.
Yes NB was a powerfully built man and military trained so a force to be reckoned with. However it is clear to me that the injuries he sustained in the bedroom rendered him defenceless against anyone. By the time he reached the kitchen he was sadly almost dead. Anyone in possession of a loaded firearm prepared to pull the trigger is at a distinct advantage over someone unarmed regardless of gender, build, previous experience etc, etc.
It is a myth that females are incapable of serious violence and aggression whether they be mentally unwell or not. I posted this a few days ago:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5594.msg201035#msg201035
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Have you any smoking gun evidence to back up your hunch? My own view is that there is nothing unsafe at all about his conviction, the guilty evidence from what I have read is very damming.
No, no smoking gun but I see my reasons for believing JB is the victim of a MoJ as being based on more than a "hunch". I do however understand entirely how those who believe JB is guilty as charged arrived at that decision and can continue to believe this.
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I doubt if Ralph would have felt confident that he could disarm Sheila, but I think he would have felt utter desperation that he HAD to, as long as he was physically capable. I think he would have tried anything - kicking her legs from under her, throwing something at her - she wouldn't have had the element of suprise that I'm assuming Bamber did when he burst into the bedroom, thinking that he could kill Ralph and June in bed but overestimating the power of the rifle.
It's back to the old question - what do you think Sheila was doing while Ralph phoned Bamber? &%+((£
(If you don't like that question, you can have this one. Who do you think has got the best bangers, me or Andy? It's actually Andy. It really is. 8)><( )
I wouldn't mind betting it's Jackie's Jugs out of the four of us @)(++(* @)(++(*
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The source for 'do lally' is in one of the police officers WS.
Another officer also testified that Jeremy said Sheila had committed child abuse on the twins. Jeremy said he had not reported this.
After the massacre he told Liz Rimmington that Sheila was going to be sent to the 'nut house' and that he was the only one who knew this.
Hints, I assumed this thread was to justify Jeremy's long delay after Neville's call. By saying Neville did not say 'please come over'. If Neville rings at 3.10am mentioning guns & a crazy Sheila, I thought Jeremy would be able to put 2 and 2 together.
Ok thanks for letting me know Adam but is it really necessary to keep repeating derogatory terms used to describe those with mental illness from a bygone era? Lots of terms were used then to describe people that we wouldn't dream of using now and in some cases are illegal. It was no fault of SC's that she suffered from mental illness.
I think I read somewhere, maybe JB's police interviews, that JB said his parents were concerned that SC was abusing the twins. I think perhaps what was meant by this was that SC was unable to care for the twins properly due to her mental illness. This is well documented Adam. CC is on record having discussions with the twins' teacher over concerns that they were having to get themselves up and ready for school (they were only just 6 yoa at the time of the tragedy). As CC said in his book had there been any out and out abuse as in violence etc then CC felt certain that he would have heard from the twins direct and he didn't.
Can you provide the source re the "nut house" please. First I've heard of this. I believe a holiday was being planned for SC in Eastbourne.
This thread is attempting to determine whether or not NB/JB ever said "Please come over". Imo PC West introduced this term and I don't believe it was ever used by NB or JB.
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PC West's WS is unavailable here but it is on Blue. However I can see from his trial testimony that he made a WS on 9th August and in it he stated:
"Please come over your sister has gone crazy and has the gun".
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=170.0;attach=327
It might be worth remembering it was agreed by all concerned that PC West recorded the time incorrectly and used different words/phrases in his trial testimony. Did he simply jump to a conclusion and throw in "Please come over" when it was never said?
PC Wests WS contradicts with:
JB's WS dated 7th August 1985 : "Sheilas gone crazy she has got a gun"
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5631.0;attach=4566
MB's Log dated 7th August 1985 : "Daughter gone beserk" "Daugher Sheila Bamber aged 26 years has got hold of one of my guns"
(Sheila was in fact Sheila Caffell aged 28 years at the time of the tragedy)
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=177.0;attach=423
SM's WS dated 15th August 1985 : "Your sister has gone beserk and she has got a gun"
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5638.0;attach=4589
AE's WS dated 8th September 1985 : "Sheila has got the gun she has gone crazy"
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=2189
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Ok thanks for letting me know Adam but is it really necessary to keep repeating derogatory terms used to describe those with mental illness from a bygone era? Lots of terms were used then to describe people that we wouldn't dream of using now and in some cases are illegal. It was no fault of SC's that she suffered from mental illness.
I think I read somewhere, maybe JB's police interviews, that JB said his parents were concerned that SC was abusing the twins. I think perhaps what was meant by this was that SC was unable to care for the twins properly due to her mental illness. This is well documented Adam. CC is on record having discussions with the twins' teacher over concerns that they were having to get themselves up and ready for school (they were only just 6 yoa at the time of the tragedy). As CC said in his book had there been any out and out abuse as in violence etc then CC felt certain that he would have heard from the twins direct and he didn't.
Can you provide the source re the "nut house" please. First I've heard of this. I believe a holiday was being planned for SC in Eastbourne.
This thread is attempting to determine whether or not NB/JB ever said "Please come over". Imo PC West introduced this term and I don't believe it was ever used by NB or JB.
The source for both the child abuse and nut house quotes are in Wilkes's book.
I can look up the officer who testified the 'child abuse' claim. Upon request.
Jeremy was speaking to Liz Rimmington about Sheila going into the 'nut house'. She found this distasteful and said she was going to bed. Jeremy looked at her and said 'Only I know what really happened that night'.
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PC West's WS is unavailable here but it is on Blue. However I can see from his trial testimony that he made a WS on 9th August and in it he stated:
"Please come over your sister has gone crazy and has the gun".
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=170.0;attach=327 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=170.0;attach=327)
It might be worth remembering it was agreed by all concerned that PC West recorded the time incorrectly and used different words/phrases in his trial testimony. Did he simply jump to a conclusion and throw in "Please come over" when it was never said?
PC Wests WS contradicts with:
JB's WS dated 7th August 1985 : "Sheilas gone crazy she has got a gun"
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5631.0;attach=4566 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5631.0;attach=4566)
MB's Log dated 7th August 1985 : "Daughter gone beserk" "Daugher Sheila Bamber aged 26 years has got hold of one of my guns"
(Sheila was in fact Sheila Caffell aged 28 years at the time of the tragedy)
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=177.0;attach=423 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=177.0;attach=423)
SM's WS dated 15th August 1985 : "Your sister has gone beserk and she has got a gun"
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5638.0;attach=4589 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5638.0;attach=4589)
AE's WS dated 8th September 1985 : "Sheila has got the gun she has gone crazy"
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=2189 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=2189)
This is becoming worse than a game of Chinese Whispers!
Why not just accept what JB said in the recent radio interview instead of getting yourself in a muddle. If he didn't say it in '85, what would be the advantage of introducing - "Please come over" - now, when it doesn't tally with or support his delaying tactics, i.e. "how, what, where, what do you want me to do, etc.", and his fiddling about with a phone book. The request is clear enough - "Our lives are in danger, get over here pronto!"
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This is becoming worse than a game of Chinese Whispers!
Why not just accept what JB said in the recent radio interview instead of getting yourself in a muddle. If he didn't say it in '85, what would be the advantage of introducing - "Please come over" - now, when it doesn't tally with or support his delaying tactics, i.e. "how, what, where, what do you want me to do, etc.", and his fiddling about with a phone book. The request is clear enough - "Our lives are in danger, get over here pronto!"
I'm not in a muddle. I think that might have been PC West. I'm simply highlighting an inconsistency. This is the sort of thing that should have been thrashed out at trial when GR was cross-examining witnesses.
The phone call played a part in JB's conviction and was used in the judge's summing up. The jury were told NB phoned JB and said "Please come over Sheilas gone crazy shes got a gun". It now appears that could in fact be wrong. If the call was made NB might just have said "Sheilas gone crazy shes got a gun".
The WS's of August 1985 should take precedence over an audio clip in 2011 - memories fade 8(0(* There's no mention of "Please come over" in JB's police interviews either.
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i honestly cant come up with a name at all. i like bodyscapes... and i would like something that incorporates my sons name which is Giovanni... i hope that helps.
Could you elucidate, please ?{)(**