Author Topic: After the Smiths sighting - Where could this mystery man have gone? Land or Sea?  (Read 24212 times)

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Offline faithlilly

sherlock
Phone a taxi? 
Phone a friend whilst carrying a stolen child?
Oh yeah ! 
And as I have said before, I dont think he was carrying a phone.


Why go to a "safe house" to leave again on foot?

Where would you go, Sherlock, if you had no-one to turn to except your accomplice, "the lifter",  and you were carrying a stolen child? 
Maybe there was nobody else willing to help; after all they knew that the abduction had been witnessed about 40 minutes before and the PJ / GNR might be around any second.   
Maybe a phone call was made and instructions were given ... if you want  your money then rendezvous at a certain place at a certian time ...
or a car will be coming to pick you up but not from outsideh The Staff Quarters .... make your way to .... xyz ... nobody around at this time of night !

You have a living child on your hands ... you are not a muderer, just a semi professional criminal ... you need the money.  No one to call on for help.  Your lifter was frightened to "death" and wanted rid of you from the Staff Quarters.

What would you do Sherlock?

This is only a theory remember, but put yourself in his boots. 
You are between a rock and a hard stone.  You desperately want the mega bucks.   Would you risk the walk thru 'deserted' back streets to a rendezvous of some sort?

What would you do?


Too many ifs and maybes making up your theory sadie. There has to be some tangible evidence to underpin evena theory, do you have any ?

I'm sure your theory  would make a rather entertaining film if produced by Quentin Tarantino or Guy Ritchie though.
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline sadie


Too many ifs and maybes making up your theory sadie. There has to be some tangible evidence to underpin evena theory, do you have any ?

I'm sure your theory  would make a rather entertaining film if produced by Quentin Tarantino or Guy Ritchie though.
Oh Sherlock faith, thank you for your prompt response.

Can you tell me "Why is it SO VERY important to you to prove that Bundleman did NOT go to The Staff Quarters" ?



There has to be a reason

Offline faithlilly

Oh Sherlock faith, thank you for your prompt response.

Can you tell me "Why is it SO VERY important to you to prove that Bundleman did NOT go to The Staff Quarters" ?



There has to be a reason


It seems to me that it is more important to you to prove that Bundleman DID go to the staff quarters, now why is that ?

Are you a double agent sadie, posting to divert forum members from what really happened ?  Are you in fact working for MR BIG  ?

Just my thoughts but after reading your posts for several months IT ALL FITS !
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline sadie


It seems to me that it is more important to you to prove that Bundleman DID go to the staff quarters, now why is that ?

Are you a double agent sadie, posting to divert forum members from what really happened ?  Are you in fact working for MR BIG  ?

Just my thoughts but after reading your posts for several months IT ALL FITS !

Very observant of you Faith 8@??)( @)(++(*

Please don't tell the DCI .... erm Andy ... erm .... erm ... 8(0(*

Offline Sherlock Holmes

Sadie,

You keep stressing that your theory 'fits', but the fact is that the gap into which any theory would have to 'fit' is extremely large, being that we have so few facts to work with. To say that something 'fits' into an enormous gap is not saying very much.

We would have to have many more pieces of the jigsaw in place before being able to say, with any real meaning, 'this fits' or 'that fits'.

We could say Madeleine was abducted by aliens between 9 and 10pm on 3rd May and there is nothing to prove disprove that statement, but we wouldn't say 'that fits.' I'm not saying your theory is as far-fetched as that, just that we need a lot more concrete information before conjecture is of assistance.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 08:29:09 PM by Sherlock Holmes »

Offline sadie


It seems to me that it is more important to you to prove that Bundleman DID go to the staff quarters, now why is that ?

Are you a double agent sadie, posting to divert forum members from what really happened ?  Are you in fact working for MR BIG  ?

Just my thoughts but after reading your posts for several months IT ALL FITS !
Yes there are reasons.  It does fit the theory, which may ... or may not be correct ..... but, ,as you say, everything fits1)  The accomplice was very likely an OC person.  And that is where non native Portuguese OC personnel lived.  Having been let down by the getawway driver, he needed the support of a "friend"
2)  A soujourn there explains the time difference between the JT sighting and The Smith sighting
3)  According to the 3A's, a scream was heard coming from there.
4)  Having been left in the lurch, it was a good place to recharge his batteries and to phone on for instructions .  Where to, what next?  Everything was compartmentalised about this abduction.  !it was planned, so that no-body knew more than the next in line.  Kept the top bod safe.


Now why are you soooo keen to disprove that Bundleman didn't go there?


Offline Sherlock Holmes

Do we know for sure that the accomplice was an OC person?

How exactly?

Is is because of the assumption that a key was used in entering 5A?

Couldn't bubdleman or someone else have pinched a key from under a plant pot? A key could have been acquired months or even years before the disappearance and for an entirely different operation, or for speculative use, given the general vulnerability of apartment 5A.

Offline faithlilly

Yes there are reasons.  It does fit the theory, which may ... or may not be correct ..... but, ,as you say, everything fits1)  The accomplice was very likely an OC person.  And that is where non native Portuguese OC personnel lived.  Having been let down by the getawway driver, he needed the support of a "friend"
2)  A soujourn there explains the time difference between the JT sighting and The Smith sighting
3)  According to the 3A's, a scream was heard coming from there.
4)  Having been left in the lurch, it was a good place to recharge his batteries and to phone on for instructions .  Where to, what next?  Everything was compartmentalised about this abduction.  !it was planned, so that no-body knew more than the next in line.  Kept the top bod safe.


Now why are you soooo keen to disprove that Bundleman didn't go there?

So one of the main planks of your theory is something claimed on a forum years ago. BTW sadie who do you think was screaming ?
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline Sherlock Holmes

sherlock
Phone a taxi? 
Phone a friend whilst carrying a stolen child?
Oh yeah ! 
And as I have said before, I dont think he was carrying a phone.


Why go to a "safe house" to leave again on foot?

Where would you go, Sherlock, if you had no-one to turn to except your accomplice, "the lifter",  and you were carrying a stolen child? 
Maybe there was nobody else willing to help; after all they knew that the abduction had been witnessed about 40 minutes before and the PJ / GNR might be around any second.   
Maybe a phone call was made and instructions were given ... if you want  your money then rendezvous at a certain place at a certian time ...
or a car will be coming to pick you up but not from outside The Staff Quarters .... make your way to .... xyz ... nobody around at this time of night !

You have a living child on your hands ... you are not a muderer, just a semi professional criminal ... you need the money.  No one to call on for help.  Your lifter was frightened to "death" and wanted rid of you from the Staff Quarters.

What would you do Sherlock?

This is only a theory remember, but put yourself in his boots. 
You are between a rock and a hard stone.  You desperately want the mega bucks.   Would you risk the walk thru 'deserted' back streets to a rendezvous of some sort?

What would you do?

I don't mean phone a taxi, Sadie. I mean phone someone connected with the operation to help out; someone higher up in the chain of command who would issue new instructions. Apparently this is what bundleman did, according to your theory. You are also saying he had no-one to turn to but the lifter, but apparently he had the higher-ups as well.

But again, why no mobile phone? Why would the so-called professional higher ups not have provided phones? Why would they sanction arrangements which did not involve phones, lending a completely avoidable layer of risk and inconvenience to the situation?

I appreciate bundleman's predicament, but he is in the predicament precisely because things had not been adequately arranged (no phones, no substitute cars, no apparent contingency plans). My whole point is that these would seem to be glaring omissions in the so-called professional abduction you maintain took place. This leads me to wonder if it was 'professional' at all.

The exposure issue underlines this contradiction. On the one hand you are saying that he has to go inside in order to avoid the police search, knowing the abduction had been witnessed, and on the other hand you are suggesting that his instructions were then to then leave SQ on foot and risk ANOTHER sighting, rather than being picked up from his hiding place. By the time he was leaving SQ, it must been assumed that a search involving many people was long under way - an even more dangerous time than before.

And why would the lifter want 'rid of ' him from SQ, if SQ was as quiet as you say?

He certainly was in a fix, I agree, but the picture you are painting of his actions is one of a man drawing far more attention to himself than necessary, and a team of professionals who are giving convoluted instructions when things could have been simpler and safer.

What would I have done if I had been bundleman? I would have had a phone, for starters. Knowing that the other members of the team were unconnected and had little loyalty to each other - as the driver's abandonment of bundleman illustrates - I would not have been willing to walk around phoneless and place my safety and liberty in the hands of their whimsy.

If I was really scared of being caught with a live child in my arms, I guess I would have let her go and relinquished my money, just like the driver.   

Keep on buying those lottery tickets...








« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 11:50:08 PM by Sherlock Holmes »

Offline Luz

Was the possiblity of Madeleine being taken away by boat ever investigated by the Pj ?  I've personally haven't found any witness statements from the people whose boat the children were taken to in a dingy by the nannies. 

IIRC The man seen by the Smith was heading towards the beach.

No darling. The Navy, Airforce and all the stupid men and women that searched the sea and air, the beaches and caves all around the Algarvian coast were phantoms.

Offline Luz

I am not angry at you, but I am angry at your MEDIA. You are being played as fools.

Offline sadie

I don't mean phone a taxi, Sadie. I mean phone someone connected with the operation to help out; someone higher up in the chain of command who would issue new instructions. Apparently this is what bundleman did, according to your theory. You are also saying he had no-one to turn to but the lifter, but apparently he had the higher-ups as well.
Camparmentalised Sherlock.  No phones to trace.  Seemingly perfect plan that could not go wrong, but it did.

They thought that everything was covered.

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But again, why no mobile phone? Why would the so-called professional higher ups not have provided phones? Why would they sanction arrangements which did not involve phones, lending a completely avoidable layer of risk and inconvenience to the situation?


Quote
I appreciate bundleman's predicament, but he is in the predicament precisely because things had not been adequately arranged (no phones, no substitute cars, no apparent contingency plans). My whole point is that these would seem to be glaring omissions in the so-called professional abduction you maintain took place. This leads me to wonder if it was 'professional' at all.
Already three peeps involved.  For safety (keeping it secret), the feweer peeps involved the better


Quote
The exposure issue underlines this contradiction. On the one hand you are saying that he has to go inside in order to avoid the police search, knowing the abduction had been witnessed, and on the other hand you are suggesting that his instructions were then to then leave SQ on foot and risk ANOTHER sighting, rather than being picked up from his hiding place. By the time he was leaving SQ, it must been assumed that a search involving many people was long under way - an even more dangerous time than before.

Yep dangerous, but Compartmentalised and only one person (+ possibly the accomplice) is endangered.  Bring a car in and it is a completely different ball game.  THere might have been a car at a later stage?

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And why would the lifter want 'rid of ' him from SQ, if SQ was as quiet as you say?
Obvious.

Quote
He certainly was in a fix, I agree, but the picture you are painting of his actions is one of a man drawing far more attention to himself than necessary, and a team of professionals who are giving convoluted instructions when things could have been simpler and safer.
It was thought to be totally safe.  Foolproof. 
Amazing timings of JT's arrival and the fact that Gerry and Jez were tucked out of sight messed it up


Quote
What would I have done if I had been bundleman? I would have had a phone, for starters. Knowing that the other members of the team were unconnected and had little loyalty to each other - as the driver's abandonment of bundleman illustrates - I would not have been willing to walk around phoneless and place my safety and liberty in the hands of their whimsy.
OK, that is what you would have done, but seems it didn't happen ... if my theory is right

Quote
If I was really scared of being caught with a live child in my arms, I guess I would have let her go and relinquished my money, just like the driver. 
Maybe he was scared of a Mr Big?  And desperate for the money?  We do not know his driviing forces.


'Tis only a theory Sherlock .... but it fits ..... everything