Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.

[j.rob]

I for one would really like an answer to this question. Why was Madeleine crying out in distress for an hour and a quarter on the night of 1st May as reported by a neighbour in a nearby apartment? The neighbour was concerned enough about the crying to speak to a friend about it. What was noteworthy was that the crying escalated. This would not be the case if it were a child who was crying him or herself to sleep. The crying then stopped abruptly when the neighbour heard the patio doors of the apartment being opened.

It's strange that Kate McCann did not refer to this incident in her book, do you not think?  I would have thought it was quite relevant. You would think that Kate would have wanted to speak with the neighbour to find out if she had seen anything suspicious. Surely in the minutes and hours directly after Madeleine's alleged disappearance the McCann's would have wanted to get as much information from bystanders as possible. Neighbours could hold vital information.

But no.In actual fact, as Kate helpfully records on page 75 of her book Madeleine, an hour after Madeleine is alleged to have gone missing, 'a lady appeared on a balcony......and, in a plummy voice, inquired: 'Can someone tell me what all the  noise is about?'

When Kate told her that 'my little girl had been stolen from her bed' the woman's response was 'woefully inadequate and apparently unconcerned'. So much so that Kate and Fiona 'shouted back something rather short and to the point'.

How extraordinary. A potentially important witness appears and their friends and by their insistence that they knew exactly what had happened to their daughter when, in reality, they could not have known exactly what had happened unless they were there when it happened or they were complicit in some way.

They can't have it both ways. They either don't know - in which case abduction would be one possible theory out of many. Or they do know what happened, because either they were in the apartment or they had something to do with it or some prior knowledge.

[sadie]

I for one would really like an answer to this question. Why was Madeleine crying out in distress for an hour and a quarter on the night of 1st May as reported by a neighbour in a nearby apartment? The neighbour was concerned enough about the crying to speak to a friend about it. What was noteworthy was that the crying escalated. This would not be the case if it were a child who was crying him or herself to sleep. The crying then stopped abruptly when the neighbour heard the patio doors of the apartment being opened.

snipped

We dont actually KNOW that the child crying was Madeleine.  Two other apartments with a child / children were, I think, adjacent to Mrs Fenn. 

My feeling is that had Madeleine wakened and started crying, she would soon have wakened the twins ... and all three of them would have been bawling.  Personally I doubt that instance was Madeleine .... but we shall never know.

[Angelo222]

We dont actually KNOW that the child crying was Madeleine.  Two other apartments with a child / children were, I think, adjacent to Mrs Fenn. 

My feeling is that had Madeleine wakened and started crying, she would soon have wakened the twins ... and all three of them would have been bawling.  Personally I doubt that instance was Madeleine .... but we shall never know.

The McCanns were directly beneath Mrs Fenn, not diagonally beneath or even further away as the others were.  No doubt when Mrs Fenn was told that a child had been taken she thought back to the night she witnessed the youngster bawling for an hour.

[John]

This is either a different child or the McCanns are lying. The witness said the crying only stopped once the patio doors opened. The implication of this is that whoever opened those patio doors found a distressed child. Kate and Gerry admitted Madeleine had been crying but only claimed to know about this episode because Madeleine told them. Therefore who is telling the truth? What reason did Mrs Fenn have to lie?

And remember that only the McCanns entered their apartment via the patio door.  Only they left the patio door unlocked and only their patio door would have been close enough to Mrs Fenn to be heard by her.

[sadie]

And remember that only the McCanns entered their apartment via the patio door.  Only they left the patio door unlocked and only their patio door would have been close enough to Mrs Fenn to be heard by her.

That is certainly true on May 3rd John.  But we are not sure about other nights, are we?  Mrs fenn heard crying on May 1st NOT May 3rd.

Had Mrs Fenn been sitting on her balcony, she might have heard one of several patio doors being closed ... and I think that her apartment went over Matts apartment too (one child) and was adjacent to the Paynes apartment (two children IIRC) so the crying could have come from any of them ... or even the flats above if tbey were occupied.

She was an old woman and her hearing might be deceptive.  I am fairly deaf and I can no longer identify from which direction sound is travelling.  Maybe Mrs Fenn was the same.  We just dont know

Lets not jump to conclusions, cos there can be all sorts of reasons why patio doors are opened and closed.  One example was on May 3rd when Russell let Matt out via his patio doors to go along the alleyway to the Mccanns apartment.





Even any Mum and Dad might have come into their apartment via the front door.   Then Mum immediately gone over to comfort the child whilst Dad escaped the sound of the crying by going out via the patio door for a quiet fag / sit on the balcony.

And personally, with Madeleine not being a shrinking violet but an outgoing little girl, I think that has she been crying for any length of time, she would have got all three of them at it.


If we are not careful, we can hang, draw and quarter The Mccanns for things that have nothing to do with them

[John]

There is no confusion Sadie.  Every member of the tapas-7 stated in their statements that they exited their apartment via the front door. Their back door/patio door was snib locked from the inside.

Kate had to admit to Madeleine being distressed at having been left alone since she had mentioned it to one of the others.  Since Mrs Fenn was out on the evening of 2nd May we can deduce that the crying incident occurred on Tuesday 1st May.  I wonder if the reason Mrs Fenn went out on the Wednesday night was to get away from a possible repeat of the previous nights crying?   Crying which was so bad that Mrs Fenn had to seek advice from her friend by telephone as to whether she should interfere and call reception.   Little wonder therefore that Mrs Fenn was somewhat short wth Kate McCann on the Thursday night when she was dsturbed yet again by the family below.  I am quite sure she must have thought to herself - here we go again!

Leaving three young children alone in a ground floor holiday apartment with an unlocked door on one occasion could be classed as stupid but to do so every night was borderline idiocy. 

[colombosstogey]

This is either a different child or the McCanns are lying. The witness said the crying only stopped once the patio doors opened. The implication of this is that whoever opened those patio doors found a distressed child. Kate and Gerry admitted Madeleine had been crying but only claimed to know about this episode because Madeleine told them. Therefore who is telling the truth? What reason did Mrs Fenn have to lie?

Firstly if she heard the patio doors then I would assume it was downstairs. The thing is though were they opening or closing...the sound is the same.

[Benice]

And remember that only the McCanns entered their apartment via the patio door.  Only they left the patio door unlocked and only their patio door would have been close enough to Mrs Fenn to be heard by her.

Russell stayed in with his daughter who was poorly that night.  It could have been his little girl who was crying.  Children do cry when they're not feeling well.      Jane took his dinner to him.  Would she have carried his meal all the way round when it was so much quicker and easier to go in via the patio doors?   There was no need for them to be locked that night because Russell was there.  More pertinently - would she not also have gone home at the end of the evening via the patio doors - for the same reason?       

If so - is it possible it could it have been JT's patio door which Mrs Fenn heard immediately before the child stopped crying?

Mrs Fenn wasn't interviewed until weeks after the 1st May.  There is no doubt in my mind that she told the truth, but her memory would not have been as clear as it would have been had she been interviewed as a matter of urgency by the PJ - simply because of her close proximity to the 'scene of the crime'.    The fact that she wasn't interviewed at all for weeks was a serious lapse by the PJ IMO.

That also means that no attention at all was given to what Mrs Fenn heard on the 1st May at those first interviews with the McCanns or their friends  because the PJ didn't  know about it.     Had Mrs Fenn been interviewed within days of the abduction - the matter could have been dealt with and cleared up at that point. 





 

[pathfinder73]

Or some may think the crying episode was changed to the 2nd to promote the abductor theory. Madeleine may have told them on the morning of the 2nd (where were you last night?) and not the 3rd. But as it was mentioned at the tapas bar and coincidently also the concern of leaving the patio door unlocked on the night that she disappeared then it looks very fishy (never mind sitting with your backs to the apartment at the tapas bar  8-)(--)). The whole case of impossible moving doors and an open window that nobody passed through screams out SET UP!

[ferryman]

Russell stayed in with his daughter who was poorly that night.  It could have been his little girl who was crying.  Children do cry when they're not feeling well.      Jane took his dinner to him.  Would she have carried his meal all the way round when it was so much quicker and easier to go in via the patio doors?   There was no need for them to be locked that night because Russell was there.  More pertinently - would she not also have gone home at the end of the evening via the patio doors - for the same reason?       

If so - is it possible it could it have been JT's patio door which Mrs Fenn heard immediately before the child stopped crying?

Mrs Fenn wasn't interviewed until weeks after the 1st May.  There is no doubt in my mind that she told the truth, but her memory would not have been as clear as it would have been had she been interviewed as a matter of urgency by the PJ - simply because of her close proximity to the 'scene of the crime'.    The fact that she wasn't interviewed at all for weeks was a serious lapse by the PJ IMO.

That also means that no attention at all was given to what Mrs Fenn heard on the 1st May at those first interviews with the McCanns or their friends  because the PJ didn't  know about it.     Had Mrs Fenn been interviewed within days of the abduction - the matter could have been dealt with and cleared up at that point.

I seldom disagree with Benice, but I do on this occasion, on all except a couple of points.  I certainly agree that Mrs Fenn was an honest witness.

She is on record verbatim as stating that she didn't even know the holiday apartment was occupied:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-481485/Madeleines-mother-quizzed-Portuguese-police.html

Advanced billing of her interview was about a crime of which she, herself, was a victim, a break-in at her flat.

And Mrs Fenn was actually interviewed on 20 August, nearly 4 months after the crime in the holiday apartment below.  That is an extraordinary gap given that she was the person in closest proximity to the crime at the time the crime occurred!

Mrs Fenn's apartment 5a-statement makes (fleeting) reference to the crime of which she, herself, was a victim, right at the end (the last couple of sentences).
 
I think Mrs Fenn's statement was corrupted. 

She was telling the truth when she said, afterwards, that she didn't even know the holiday apartment was occupied.

And the extraordinary gap between the crime at apartment 5a and the interview would be explained if she had nothing very important to say about it.

[pathfinder73]

Russell stayed in with his daughter who was poorly that night.  It could have been his little girl who was crying.  Children do cry when they're not feeling well.      Jane took his dinner to him.  Would she have carried his meal all the way round when it was so much quicker and easier to go in via the patio doors?   There was no need for them to be locked that night because Russell was there.  More pertinently - would she not also have gone home at the end of the evening via the patio doors - for the same reason?       

If so - is it possible it could it have been JT's patio door which Mrs Fenn heard immediately before the child stopped crying?

Mrs Fenn wasn't interviewed until weeks after the 1st May.  There is no doubt in my mind that she told the truth, but her memory would not have been as clear as it would have been had she been interviewed as a matter of urgency by the PJ - simply because of her close proximity to the 'scene of the crime'.    The fact that she wasn't interviewed at all for weeks was a serious lapse by the PJ IMO.

That also means that no attention at all was given to what Mrs Fenn heard on the 1st May at those first interviews with the McCanns or their friends  because the PJ didn't  know about it.     Had Mrs Fenn been interviewed within days of the abduction - the matter could have been dealt with and cleared up at that point. 

The crying started at 10.30pm. Russ would've had his meal by that time. Fenn is saying it's probably Madeleine crying alone i.e. a young child not 2 years or younger.

"She also refers to the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22.30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger. Apart from the crying that continued for approximately one hour and fifteen minutes, and which got louder and more expressive, the child shouted ?Daddy, Daddy?, the witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below. At about 23.45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse."

[ferryman]

The crying started at 10.30pm. Russ would've had his meal by that time. Fenn is saying it's probably Madeleine crying alone i.e. a young child not 2 years or younger.


Says who?

If you look at the link I give above, you'll see it was from before Mrs Fenn was even interviewed.

How did the PJ know about any crying whatever before they'd even spoken to Mrs Fenn?

[pathfinder73]

That's from her police statement. Don't believe everything you read in the press lol.

[ferryman]

That's from her police statement. Don't believe everything you read in the press lol.

Opening sentence:

The mother of Madeleine McCann is to be interviewed again by police investigating her daughter's disappearance.

Future tense ...

[ferryman]

That's from her police statement. Don't believe everything you read in the press lol.

OK looked at it again.

The leaks were after her (one and only!) interview