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Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: G-Unit on March 09, 2019, 09:20:13 AM

Title: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 09, 2019, 09:20:13 AM
Two are available with more to follow.

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Podcast/
https://omny.fm/shows/maddie
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on March 09, 2019, 04:22:40 PM

I have no idea of what this is about.  But in the absence of much else then anything will do.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 09, 2019, 04:56:47 PM
Absolute rubbish...promotes Amaral as a supercop...who claims the shutters could not be opened from the outside.. With a report by Paulo Reiss... Then we have Petermac saying the window was too small for a man to fit through and tells off a women in a forensic suit collecting fingerprint samples from the window... Looking forward to the rest
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 09, 2019, 05:36:26 PM
Two are available with more to follow.

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Podcast/
https://omny.fm/shows/maddie
Save me watching them - has he uncovered anything at all that we didn’t already know, or put forward any opinions that we haven’t already heard a million times before?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 09, 2019, 05:43:45 PM
Absolute rubbish...promotes Amaral as a supercop...who claims the shutters could not be opened from the outside.. With a report by Paulo Reiss... Then we have Petermac saying the window was too small for a man to fit through and tells off a women in a forensic suit collecting fingerprint samples from the window... Looking forward to the rest

Why do you think Rebelo was particularly interested in the window with regard to the reconstitution? Does it suggest to you that he was convinced with the parents tale ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 09, 2019, 05:52:19 PM
Why do you think Rebelo was particularly interested in the window with regard to the reconstitution? Does it suggest to you that he was convinced with the parents tale ?

Was he particularly interested in the window... According to the podcast... Amaral said the shutters couldn't be opened from the outside.... He wad wrong... And petermac said a man couldn't fit through the window... He was wrong... Not a convincing start
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on March 09, 2019, 06:38:21 PM
After waiting at the restaurant table for five minutes, Dianne Webster went to the McCann's apartment where she entered the children's bedroom and saw Kate with the twins. Kate insisted on the fact that the window and shutters were open when she saw the children, Dianne went outside to see if she could raise the shutter from the outside and found it to be impossible.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BRIGADE-OF-INFORMATION.htm


Pathfinder posted this in another thread.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 09, 2019, 06:40:11 PM
After waiting at the restaurant table for five minutes, Dianne Webster went to the McCann's apartment where she entered the children's bedroom and saw Kate with the twins. Kate insisted on the fact that the window and shutters were open when she saw the children, Dianne went outside to see if she could raise the shutter from the outside and found it to be impossible.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BRIGADE-OF-INFORMATION.htm


Pathfinder posted this in another thread.

Petermac has posted a video showing how easy the shutters are to open from the outside... Have you not seen it
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 09, 2019, 06:42:47 PM
After waiting at the restaurant table for five minutes, Dianne Webster went to the McCann's apartment where she entered the children's bedroom and saw Kate with the twins. Kate insisted on the fact that the window and shutters were open when she saw the children, Dianne went outside to see if she could raise the shutter from the outside and found it to be impossible.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BRIGADE-OF-INFORMATION.htm


Pathfinder posted this in another thread.

Is there a statement  to this effect.. Cite would be appreciated..
So no direct statement... We are not sure who made this claim and how true it is... But we have a, video of petermac showing how, easy it was to open the shutters
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on March 09, 2019, 06:42:58 PM
Dianne Webster.

However, she wants to stress that immediately afterwards, she went outside the apartment in order to ascertain whether she would be able to raise the shutters by hand from the outside, and found it was impossible for her. Consequently she infers that at the time of her arrival at the apartment the window would have been closed.


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANNE_WEBSTER_11-MAY07.htm
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on March 09, 2019, 06:45:06 PM
Petermac has posted a video showing how easy the shutters are to open from the outside... Have you not seen it


Webster was out there at the time,Mcleod wasn't.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 09, 2019, 06:49:14 PM

Webster was out there at the time,Mcleod wasn't.

No
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on March 09, 2019, 06:57:36 PM
No statement from Webster to that effect.. Just an unverified.. Hearsay... Claim

What the f is this then.

Dianne Webster.

However, she wants to stress that immediately afterwards, she went outside the apartment in order to ascertain whether she would be able to raise the shutters by hand from the outside, and found it was impossible for her. Consequently she infers that at the time of her arrival at the apartment the window would have been closed.


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANNE_WEBSTER_11-MAY07.htm
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 09, 2019, 06:59:43 PM
What the f is this then.

Yes I've just seen it... So it's the Portuguese translation... Not her words... She may not have been able to open it... How old us she... But petermac proved on video it was, easy fir a man to open
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on March 09, 2019, 07:05:39 PM
Yes I've just seen it... So it's the Portuguese translation... Not her words... She may not have been able to open it... How old us she... But petermac proved on video it was, easy fir a man to open


So? what does it prove ,is he an authority all of a sudden on all things related to 5a.

how long after the event was he there,were the shutters subject to some maintenance to help ease of opening?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 09, 2019, 07:11:37 PM

So? what does it prove ,is he an authority all of a sudden on all things related to 5a.

how long after the event was he there,were the shutters subject to some maintenance to help ease of opening?

The fact is what petermac showed is the shutters do not have a locking mechanism.. And with a bit of wriggling can be FORCED up... Without causing any damage.. Perhaps Webster just wasn't strong enough..

Sil will confirm that this has also been established by a member of this forum... Heriberto
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on March 09, 2019, 07:40:35 PM

So? what does it prove ,is he an authority all of a sudden on all things related to 5a.

how long after the event was he there,were the shutters subject to some maintenance to help ease of opening?

PeterMac is an idiot.  He inadvertently proved that the shutters could be raised from outside.  On Video.

Not that any of this matters.  We still don't know how Madeleine  was taken from 5a.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on March 09, 2019, 08:56:23 PM
The fact is what petermac showed is the shutters do not have a locking mechanism.. And with a bit of wriggling can be FORCED up... Without causing any damage.. Perhaps Webster just wasn't strong enough..

Sil will confirm that this has also been established by a member of this forum... Heriberto

Heri showed the proper way to do it (possibly using the burglars' tried and technique} if memory serves me well it is done as follows
I believe many holidaymakers might have been under the misapprehension that the shutters were a security measure.  At this time in 2007 this was not the case in apartments such as 5A, which the McCanns had rented.

On running to the apartment after Kate raised the alarm ... one of the first things Gerry did was to lower the shutter, run outside, I think to 'prove' it could not be raised to allow access from outside.  Only to find it was possible.  He didn't know the proper technique for doing so and got it stuck at an angle which I believe was noted by the police when they arrived on site.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on March 09, 2019, 09:35:40 PM

None of this is of any importance beyond the fact that it was possible to raise the shutters from outside   PeterMac proved that himself.  After that fact anything was possible.  Anyone could have opened the window.  What happened after that will always be conjecture.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on March 09, 2019, 10:23:28 PM
Colin Sutton erred when he stated that there were only two possibilities and both of them were implausible.  He stated that Maddie was either abducted by an intruder or a gang of paedophiles who risked a very small window of opportunity to gain access to the apartment or the McCanns and their friends were complicit in a cover-up.  He failed to report the most likely scenario that Maddie wandered out of the apartment and was either run over and lifted from the street outside or simply abducted from the street outside.  A fatal flaw in his investigation imo which the Aussie podcast also fails to explore.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on March 09, 2019, 11:41:03 PM
Oh well ... I bit the bullet ... and wasted a valuable ten minutes 40 seconds of my life listening to as much of a podcast made by yet another know nothing 'expert' as I was able to take.

Amazing ... this guy has perhaps stumbled onto a nice wee sponsorship earner for himself using the least possible effort ... by peddling dated misinformation already available on any of the numerous internet sceptic sites.

A podcast indeed! He really has got it worked out ... least possible effort - to net a gullible not terribly critical audience for a series of these - for a possibly good return.
As far as that goes ... I think the guy done good for himself.  Gives me cause to wonder a bit though about how much more of this his target audience can take before the penny drops.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 10, 2019, 12:04:30 AM
Colin Sutton erred when he stated that there were only two possibilities and both of them were implausible.  He stated that Maddie was either abducted by an intruder or a gang of paedophiles who risked a very small window of opportunity to gain access to the apartment or the McCanns and their friends were complicit in a cover-up.  He failed to report the most likely scenario that Maddie wandered out of the apartment and was either run over and lifted from the street outside or simply abducted from the street outside.  A fatal flaw in his investigation imo which the Aussie podcast also fails to explore.

If you believe in woke and wandered how do you explain the open window?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 10, 2019, 12:20:01 AM
If you believe in woke and wandered how do you explain the open window?
You obviously haven’t been paying attention. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: carlymichelle on March 10, 2019, 07:32:06 AM
im very proud to have another australian with his  opinion/s
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 10, 2019, 08:15:11 AM
im very proud to have another australian with his  opinion/s
Bless you.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on March 10, 2019, 08:37:45 AM
The fact is what petermac showed is the shutters do not have a locking mechanism.. And with a bit of wriggling can be FORCED up... Without causing any damage.. Perhaps Webster just wasn't strong enough..

Sil will confirm that this has also been established by a member of this forum... Heriberto


Heriberto did it with another shutter did he not.Once lifted in this imagined scenario how are the shutters kept open to enter the room, cross it to Madeleine's bed and out again? Remembering Mitchell:,Kate and Gerry are firmly of the view that some got into the room and left through the window as their means of escape.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 10, 2019, 08:49:18 AM

Heriberto did it with another shutter did he not.Once lifted in this imagined scenario how are the shutters kept open to enter the room, cross it to Madeleine's bed and out again? Remembering Mitchell:,Kate and Gerry are firmly of the view that some got into the room and left through the window as their means of escape.

It was quite simple to keep the shutters up as heri showed... Simply reach in and pull on the cord/chain mechanism... I don't think the mccanns think that the, abductor left specifically by the window... We dint know what part the open window played.... But if the window was open it indicates third party involvement
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 10, 2019, 08:55:08 AM
Mark is presenting a very biased view so far... Whereas, I understood good journalist have a duty to be impartial... The mccanns have quite rightly sued anyone who had libelled them... Mark reports that as, an attempt to control the media.. It isnt
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 10, 2019, 09:12:11 AM
Mark is presenting a very biased view so far... Whereas, I understood good journalist have a duty to be impartial... The mccanns have quite rightly sued anyone who had libelled them... Mark reports that as, an attempt to control the media.. It isnt
Journalists have a duty to report accurately but not necessarily impartially.  IMO.  Look at the recent two part documentary on Michael Jackson for example.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 10, 2019, 09:18:49 AM
Journalists have a duty to report accurately but not necessarily impartially.  IMO.  Look at the recent two part documentary on Michael Jackson for example.
He's far from impartial... He claims he has interviewed one if the, world's leading DNA experts... Let's see if he's, accurate..
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on March 10, 2019, 09:20:08 AM

Heriberto did it with another shutter did he not.Once lifted in this imagined scenario how are the shutters kept open to enter the room, cross it to Madeleine's bed and out again? Remembering Mitchell:,Kate and Gerry are firmly of the view that some got into the room and left through the window as their means of escape.
Using Heri's flawless demonstration as an example ...the trick lies in the cunning plan to use the shutter's own mechanism to raise it and lock it into place.  Think about it very carefully.

No-one except the person who opened the window and raised the shutter has the faintest idea why it was done.  No-one knows if it was opened from the inside or if it was opened from the outside.

Amaral is of the opinion it cannot be opened from the outside.  He is wrong ... demonstrably wrong and getting something as elementary as that wrong raises the red flag of what else he got wrong.  Repeating the myths as the latest poster boy is doing cannot change that.  'But facts are chiels that winna ding' following in Amaral's footsteps just isn't going to shake that elusive Ace out of anyone's sleeve. I think it just makes those flying in the face of evidence to the contrary of Amaral's erroneous ill informed opinion look rather foolish.

Why anyone would buy into this entrepreneur's series of podcasts rehashing every redundant conspiracy theory past and present is way beyond me.  Didn't the boy done good though as far as making a name for himself is concerned in this niche market ... what it will do for any serious aspirations he may have in the real world remains to be seen ... but I'm not hopeful for him.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 10, 2019, 09:30:05 AM
I believe the podcast contains this gem of new intelligence
"My shoulders are wider than that little window. So although you could climb in sideways you certainly can't jump in if you are a normal sized person," Mr MacLeod said.
I mean LOL.  So because Peter Mac has wide shoulders no one could jump through the window.
 (&^&
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on March 10, 2019, 09:33:49 AM
Seems to be a lot of opinion being passed off as fact these days,forum is not like it used to be.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 10, 2019, 09:35:06 AM
Seems to be a lot of opinion being passed off as fact these days,forum is not like it used to be.
give us an example
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 10, 2019, 09:37:14 AM
Oh well ... I bit the bullet ... and wasted a valuable ten minutes 40 seconds of my life listening to as much of a podcast made by yet another know nothing 'expert' as I was able to take.

Amazing ... this guy has perhaps stumbled onto a nice wee sponsorship earner for himself using the least possible effort ... by peddling dated misinformation already available on any of the numerous internet sceptic sites.

A podcast indeed! He really has got it worked out ... least possible effort - to net a gullible not terribly critical audience for a series of these - for a possibly good return.
As far as that goes ... I think the guy done good for himself.  Gives me cause to wonder a bit though about how much more of this his target audience can take before the penny drops.

Your reaction is as expected. You dismss the content of the podcasts as 'dated misinformation' yet don't identify what you disagree with.  Instead your reaction is to launch a personal attack on Mark Saunokonoko and his audience.

There are a lot of people who share this man's doubts and they, like him, are perfectly normal intelligent, law abiding citizens. Personally attacking them looks like desperation to me rather than the best line of defence.

In my opinion there are aspects of the McCann's story which don't make sense. Those who support them have never been able to explain these anomalies imo. Opinions about how the McCann;s felt or on the skills of policemen, judges, interpreters and translators aren't explanations, they're excuses dredged up fron fertile imaginations in my opinion.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on March 10, 2019, 09:40:24 AM
give us an example

Quote
No-one except the person who opened the window and raised the shutter has the faintest idea why it was done.

What is a fact is its written in a book,whether it is an actual fact remains open to question  and should be treated as such,good enough.

Posters counted on the fingers of one hand two of them are what can be described as pros and mods taboot its not a criticism but a view of what I see.agree or disagree at your will I care not,guest's looking in down from the hunderds to double figures
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 10, 2019, 10:57:51 AM


DB = David Barclay (Former Head of Physical Evidence UK National Crime and Operations Faculty)

‘(to camera) We must be very careful that we're not saying this is actually staging, but it is difficult to see how anybody could have interfered with those shutters from the outside without leaving some trace. In fact, having looked at them, I think it's almost impossible.’
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 10, 2019, 11:25:29 AM

DB = David Barclay (Former Head of Physical Evidence UK National Crime and Operations Faculty)

‘(to camera) We must be very careful that we're not saying this is actually staging, but it is difficult to see how anybody could have interfered with those shutters from the outside without leaving some trace. In fact, having looked at them, I think it's almost impossible.’

I have heard policemen saying they believe the McCanns weren't involved in their daughter's disappearance.  I haven't heard one of them attempting to explain just how the open shutters and window story might be relevant.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 10, 2019, 11:26:01 AM
Your reaction is as expected. You dismss the content of the podcasts as 'dated misinformation' yet don't identify what you disagree with.  Instead your reaction is to launch a personal attack on Mark Saunokonoko and his audience.

There are a lot of people who share this man's doubts and they, like him, are perfectly normal intelligent, law abiding citizens. Personally attacking them looks like desperation to me rather than the best line of defence.

In my opinion there are aspects of the McCann's story which don't make sense. Those who support them have never been able to explain these anomalies imo. Opinions about how the McCann;s felt or on the skills of policemen, judges, interpreters and translators aren't explanations, they're excuses dredged up fron fertile imaginations in my opinion.

The anomalies have been explained... IMO.... And it seems also to the satisfaction of both the UK and Portuguese police ..and that's why the mccanns are no longer suspects and according to the Portuguese there is no evidence against them
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 10, 2019, 11:34:04 AM
The anomalies have been explained... IMO.... And it seems also to the satisfaction of both the UK and Portuguese police ..and that's why the mccanns are no longer suspects and according to the Portuguese there is no evidence against them

Surely due to judicial secrecy we won’t know who they are investigating ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on March 10, 2019, 11:50:28 AM
If you believe in woke and wandered how do you explain the open window?

Several possibilities exist including the attempted incursion by a burglar who woke Maddie then ran off.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on March 10, 2019, 11:53:42 AM
The anomalies have been explained... IMO.... And it seems also to the satisfaction of both the UK and Portuguese police ..and that's why the mccanns are no longer suspects and according to the Portuguese there is no evidence against them

IYO only!  Afraid the facts say something quite different.  The McCanns have not been cleared according to the Supreme Court in Portugal and the Portuguese police haven''t disclosed who they are currently investigating.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 10, 2019, 11:56:33 AM
IYO only!  Afraid the facts say something quite different.

In your opinion... And it's not only my opinion that the anomalies have been explained... So you are quite wrong there
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 10, 2019, 11:57:45 AM
Surely due to judicial secrecy we won’t know who they are investigating ?

I think we know who they are not investigating... Unless Murat etc are, stil in the frame
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on March 10, 2019, 12:01:25 PM
In your opinion... And it's not only my opinion that the anomalies have been explained... So you are quite wrong there

The anomalies are very real, being wise after the fact has never been very clever.  I'm more interested in what happened with the crooked Spanish detectives though, that should make for interesting reading when the PJ get round to investigating it all.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 10, 2019, 12:06:26 PM
I think we know who they are not investigating... Unless Murat etc are, stil in the frame

It was you yourself who argued for judicial secrecy.

‘It seems this time the Porto group are respecting judicial secrecy... We will know, all once the investigation finishes’

‘Portuguese law dictates not discussing the case so if SY discussed it they would  be breaking Portuguese law’

So explain how we can possibly know who is being investigated?

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 10, 2019, 12:07:09 PM
Several possibilities exist including the attempted incursion by a burglar who woke Maddie then ran off.

Isn’t that a coincidence too far for you ? It certainly is for me.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 10, 2019, 12:07:49 PM
The anomalies are very real, being wise after the fact has never been very clever.  I'm more interested in what happened with the crooked Spanish detectives though, that should make for interesting reading when the PJ get round to investigating it all.

The anomolies are very real in your opinion......as the statements may not be accurate due to translation issues most of the anomolies may not even exist....teh PJ dont seem interested in your claims re the detectives...perhaps because they dont exist either
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 10, 2019, 12:09:55 PM
It was you yourself who argued for judicial secrecy.

‘It seems this time the Porto group are respecting judicial secrecy... We will know, all once the investigation finishes’

‘Portuguese law dictates not discussing the case so if SY discussed it they would  be breaking Portuguese law’

So explain how we can possibly know who is being investigated?

I havent argued for judicial secrecy ...the PJ can say whatever they wish...SY are more limited
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 10, 2019, 12:15:05 PM
I havent argued for judicial secrecy ...the PJ can say whatever they wish...SY are more limited

Of course you have...I’ve quoted you doing just that.

OG can’t talk about the investigation or they would be breaking Portuguese law, as would the PJ, so how an we possibly know who, or what, is being investigated?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 10, 2019, 12:21:49 PM
Of course you have...I’ve quoted you doing just that.

OG can’t talk about the investigation or they would be breaking Portuguese law, as would the PJ, so how an we possibly know who, or what, is being investigated?

Ive said they are limited to what they can say...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 10, 2019, 12:32:46 PM
Ive said they are limited to what they can say...

No, what you said....and I quote

‘Portuguese law dictates not discussing the case so if SY discussed it they would  be breaking Portuguese law’

So tell me again how SY could confirm that the parents are not being investigated without breaking judicial secrecy laws ?
 Further in 2007 we were told by the PJ  that the parents were not suspects at a time when we know they were so obviously the PJ would be unable to confirm or deny the parents were suspects without breaking secrecy laws too.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 10, 2019, 01:22:59 PM
No, what you said....and I quote

‘Portuguese law dictates not discussing the case so if SY discussed it they would  be breaking Portuguese law’

So tell me again how SY could confirm that the parents are not being investigated without breaking judicial secrecy laws ?
 Further in 2007 we were told by the PJ  that the parents were not suspects at a time when we know they were so obviously the PJ would be unable to confirm or deny the parents were suspects without breaking secrecy laws too.

quite simple...they are not allowed to discuss wht is beeing investigted but are at liberty to say waht isnt being investigated....
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 10, 2019, 01:41:29 PM
quite simple...they are not allowed to discuss wht is beeing investigted but are at liberty to say waht isnt being investigated....

You said it yourself ‘‘Portuguese law dictates not discussing the case so if SY discussed it they would  be breaking Portuguese law’ Not they are allowed to discuss some things but the case in its entirety.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on March 10, 2019, 01:47:52 PM
You said it yourself ‘‘Portuguese law dictates not discussing the case so if SY discussed it they would  be breaking Portuguese law’ Not they are allowed to discuss some things but the case in its entirety.

I think this bit goes over the head... ‘‘Portuguese law dictates not discussing the case so if SY discussed it they would  be breaking Portuguese law’

Make it a bit clearer if you will Faith..

For the benefit of the supporters. NOT discussing the case means NOT. So if SY say the McCanns are 'not suspects'innocent' not being investigated- they are breaking the law.  And we should at least be told what they are not suspects ,innocent. not being investgated about. i.e which 'crime' would that be exactly?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 10, 2019, 01:59:58 PM
What is a fact is its written in a book,whether it is an actual fact remains open to question  and should be treated as such,good enough.

Posters counted on the fingers of one hand two of them are what can be described as [ censored word ] and mods taboot its not a criticism but a view of what I see.agree or disagree at your will I care not,guest's looking in down from the hunderds to double figures
“No-one except the person who opened the window and raised the shutter has the faintest idea why it was done” which part of that is not factual?.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 10, 2019, 02:03:23 PM
I think this bit goes over the head... ‘‘Portuguese law dictates not discussing the case so if SY discussed it they would  be breaking Portuguese law’

Make it a bit clearer if you will Faith..

For the benefit of the supporters. NOT discussing the case means NOT. So if SY say the McCanns are 'not suspects'innocent' not being investigated- they are breaking the law.  And we should at least be told what they are not suspects ,innocent. not being investgated about. i.e which 'crime' would that be exactly?
Both the Met and the PJ have said the McCanns are not suspects so they have both broken the law then, haven’t they?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on March 10, 2019, 02:06:49 PM
“No-one except the person who opened the window and raised the shutter has the faintest idea why it was done” which part of that is not factual?.

And who would that be... and why did they not close it after them because someone did.

It is also worth noting that Gerry did go to check as well.  there was a problem with the shutters as I recall- a few days before. maybe that is why Dianne couldn't open them. if she couldn't open them and the burglar [promoted through the criminal ranks to abductor] had to use a jemmy?  oh,  yes  it is ALL becoming clear now!!!!!

EURIKA moment!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on March 10, 2019, 02:09:21 PM
Both the Met and the PJ have said the McCanns are not suspects so they have both broken the law then, haven’t they?

Not suspects in what? did they mention a crime at all?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 10, 2019, 02:12:26 PM
Not suspects in what? did they mention a crime at all?
Not suspects.  Period.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 10, 2019, 02:13:10 PM
And who would that be... and why did they not close it after them because someone did.

It is also worth noting that Gerry did go to check as well.  there was a problem with the shutters as I recall- a few days before. maybe that is why Dianne couldn't open them. if she couldn't open them and the burglar [promoted through the criminal ranks to abductor] had to use a jemmy?  oh,  yes  it is ALL becoming clear now!!!!!

EURIKA moment!
Point spectacularly missed.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on March 10, 2019, 02:24:31 PM
Point spectacularly missed.

 @)(++(*


No. Not at all infact the penny dropped with regards to why Gerry told his sister the shutters were Jemmied. THEY couldn't be opened wide enough for a person to get in and out! OMG wow what a revellation.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on March 10, 2019, 02:26:58 PM
Isn’t that a coincidence too far for you ? It certainly is for me.

Not sure what you mean by coincidence?  We know that the Ocean Club Gardens complex where the McCanns and their friends were staying was the subject of previous burglaries and attempted burglaries so an attempt to enter 5a via the rear bedroom window is extremely plausible. So is the possibility that said attempted burglary was compromised when Maddie was woken up. A scared child would then run barefoot towards what she thought was safety.  I see no coincidence here, just very logical possibilities and evidence to back it up from two tracker dogs.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on March 10, 2019, 02:31:45 PM
The anomolies are very real in your opinion......as the statements may not be accurate due to translation issues most of the anomolies may not even exist....teh PJ dont seem interested in your claims re the detectives...perhaps because they dont exist either

Afraid you're wrong on both counts, I've had a very positive response to my information.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on March 10, 2019, 02:34:21 PM
Both the Met and the PJ have said the McCanns are not suspects so they have both broken the law then, haven’t they?

Not according to my sources as SY haven't a clue what happened yet.  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 10, 2019, 02:35:34 PM
@)(++(*


No. Not at all infact the penny dropped with regards to why Gerry told his sister the shutters were Jemmied. THEY couldn't be opened wide enough for a person to get in and out! OMG wow what a revellation.
And again.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 10, 2019, 02:35:58 PM
Not according to my sources.   @)(++(*
Oh dear. *%87
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 10, 2019, 02:39:00 PM
Not suspects in what? did they mention a crime at all?

De Sousa said the parents were not suspects when obviously they were. From that we can extrapolate that due to judicial secrecy the PJ were not allowed to tell us that they were. Why does anyone think that that would be different in this investigation?

In fact I believe it was the parents and not the PJ who told us, in the end, that they were arguidos. Of course I’ll be happy to be corrected if I’m wrong.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 10, 2019, 02:39:43 PM
Not sure what you mean by coincidence?  We know that the Ocean Club Gardens complex where the McCanns and their friends were staying was the subject of previous burglaries and attempted burglaries so an attempt to enter 5a via the rear bedroom window is extremely plausible. So is the possibility that said attempted burglary was compromised when Maddie was woken up. A scared child would then run barefoot towards what she thought was safety.  I see no coincidence here, just very logical possibilities and evidence to back it up from two tracker dogs.

And after she left the apartment?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on March 10, 2019, 02:47:14 PM
Not sure what you mean by coincidence?  We know that the Ocean Club Gardens complex where the McCanns and their friends were staying was the subject of previous burglaries and attempted burglaries so an attempt to enter 5a via the rear bedroom window is extremely plausible. So is the possibility that said attempted burglary was compromised when Maddie was woken up. A scared child would then run barefoot towards what she thought was safety.  I see no coincidence here, just very logical possibilities and evidence to back it up from two tracker dogs.

Actually, one of my friends came up with that same scenario- saying that the attempeted burglary was hampered by the shutters not working. Just off the phone to him...

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 10, 2019, 03:00:35 PM
https://www.9news.com.au/videos/world/what-happened-to-madeleine-mc-cann/cjt21kg07001x0hqrzag1vtpg
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 10, 2019, 04:54:22 PM
Number 1 for Australia and Number 2 on Itunes podcast charts for the UK so many are listening.

(https://i.ibb.co/RpS1Dzb/maddiepodcastcharts.png)

http://www.itunescharts.net/aus/artists/podcast/9podcasts/podcasts/maddie/

(https://i.ibb.co/T2xC2Vd/maddieuk.png)

http://www.itunescharts.net/uk/artists/podcast/9podcasts/podcasts/maddie/
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 10, 2019, 05:31:30 PM
Number 1 for Australia and Number 2 on Itunes podcast charts for the UK so many are listening.

(https://i.ibb.co/RpS1Dzb/maddiepodcastcharts.png)

http://www.itunescharts.net/aus/artists/podcast/9podcasts/podcasts/maddie/

(https://i.ibb.co/T2xC2Vd/maddieuk.png)

http://www.itunescharts.net/uk/artists/podcast/9podcasts/podcasts/maddie/

Good stuff.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on March 10, 2019, 05:36:33 PM
Your reaction is as expected. You dismss the content of the podcasts as 'dated misinformation' yet don't identify what you disagree with.  Instead your reaction is to launch a personal attack on Mark Saunokonoko and his audience.

There are a lot of people who share this man's doubts and they, like him, are perfectly normal intelligent, law abiding citizens. Personally attacking them looks like desperation to me rather than the best line of defence.

In my opinion there are aspects of the McCann's story which don't make sense. Those who support them have never been able to explain these anomalies imo. Opinions about how the McCann;s felt or on the skills of policemen, judges, interpreters and translators aren't explanations, they're excuses dredged up fron fertile imaginations in my opinion.

I’m not sure that in his podcast enterprise Saunokonoko has quite grasped the reality that two internationally respected police forces have been taking measures for a number of years now to properly investigate Madeleine McCann’s case.

Saunokonoko’s podcast appears to be stuck in events from May 2007 to September 2007 and reliant on information which was subsequently dismissed by the Judicial police in their Final Report to the public prosecutors which covered that period and beyond.

Therefore anyone influenced by that snapshot in time is basing ‘what they know’ on information which has been thoroughly checked out and found to be inaccurate, certainly as far as Madeleine’s parents are concerned.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on March 10, 2019, 05:54:02 PM
Why do they go over these ridiculous things all the time.   Can anyone for instance give a good reason why Kate would say the window and shutter were open if they weren't?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on March 10, 2019, 06:08:32 PM
Why do they go over these ridiculous things all the time.   Can anyone for instance give a good reason why Kate would say the window and shutter were open if they weren't?

I can't give you an answer as I find it impossible to understand the McCann mindset.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 10, 2019, 06:12:01 PM
Why do they go over these ridiculous things all the time.   Can anyone for instance give a good reason why Kate would say the window and shutter were open if they weren't?

No open window, no evidence of abduction. It really is that simple.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 10, 2019, 06:13:11 PM
I’m not sure that in his podcast enterprise Saunokonoko has quite grasped the reality that two internationally respected police forces have been taking measures for a number of years now to properly investigate Madeleine McCann’s case.

Saunokonoko’s podcast appears to be stuck in events from May 2007 to September 2007 and reliant on information which was subsequently dismissed by the Judicial police in their Final Report to the public prosecutors which covered that period and beyond.

Therefore anyone influenced by that snapshot in time is basing ‘what they know’ on information which has been thoroughly checked out and found to be inaccurate, certainly as far as Madeleine’s parents are concerned.

This is a nine episode podcast, be patient.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on March 10, 2019, 06:20:39 PM
No open window, no evidence of abduction. It really is that simple.

The patio door was open.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 10, 2019, 06:33:28 PM
It seems if Kate hadn’t said the window was open then people would be more inclined to believe Madeleine had been abducted  *%87
Furthermore they claimed the window was opened but then made sure it was shut when the police got there to make sure they looked really suspicious! 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 10, 2019, 06:42:20 PM
The patio door was open.

Madeleine could open the door.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on March 10, 2019, 06:48:10 PM
Madeleine could open the door.

Yes she could so why do you think the McCann's said the window and shutters were open?   Madeleine wasn't found she was searched for,  everywhere the McCann's had gone that holiday no sign of her.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 10, 2019, 07:04:34 PM
Yes she could so why do you think the McCann's said the window and shutters were open?   Madeleine wasn't found she was searched for,  everywhere the McCann's had gone that holiday no sign of her.

Because neither Madeleine nor the twins could open the window or shutters so someone else would have had to open them......evidence of abduction. No open window, could simply have been walk and wandered.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on March 10, 2019, 07:16:16 PM
Because neither Madeleine nor the twins could open the window or shutters so someone else would have had to open them......evidence of abduction. No open window, could simply have been walk and wandered.


Kate said Madeleine wouldn't have gone through the patio doors and shut the curtain behind her, opened the child gate and shut it behind her opened the gate at the bottom of the steps and shut it behind her.   Also someone also said if Madeleine had gone out through the patio doors she would have been drawn to the lights of the Tapas and would have gone down to find her parents.    As for the front door did they find Madeleine's prints on it?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on March 10, 2019, 07:19:55 PM
Why do they go over these ridiculous things all the time.   Can anyone for instance give a good reason why Kate would say the window and shutter were open if they weren't?

The fact that Rebelo leading his high powered team personally checked the window of Madeleine's bedroom and tested the feasibility by sending a man through it shows I think that he placed great weight on Kate's eye witness testimony and there is no doubt he that he missed nothing in the course of his inspection.

He was a high powered highly motivated career Judicial police officer who wasn't about to let the side down by missing one shred of evidence to confirm the findings of the Amaral investigation ... I believe he must have been dismayed when the evidence took him in the opposite direction.  Leaving the public prosecutors to affirm that nothing which led Amaral's investigation to make them arguidos stood up to scrutiny.
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/zzrebelo3d.jpg.w300h156.jpg)
An officer attempts to enter the apartment through Maddie's bedroom window
Rebelo tests scenarios in Luz
Correio da Manha - 30 October 2007
Snip
Paulo Rebelo was even one of the elements of the team who paid most attention to the window, having risen and lowered the shutters several times, apparently evaluating its operation.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/rebelo-tests-scenarios-in-luz-cdm-30-10-07-t2344.html

If the podcast tries to rewrite the fact that the Judicial police and public prosecutors could find no criminal fault in Madeleine's parents it quite frankly is nothing more than a waste of bandwith.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 10, 2019, 07:21:44 PM
I’m not sure that in his podcast enterprise Saunokonoko has quite grasped the reality that two internationally respected police forces have been taking measures for a number of years now to properly investigate Madeleine McCann’s case.

Saunokonoko’s podcast appears to be stuck in events from May 2007 to September 2007 and reliant on information which was subsequently dismissed by the Judicial police in their Final Report to the public prosecutors which covered that period and beyond.

Therefore anyone influenced by that snapshot in time is basing ‘what they know’ on information which has been thoroughly checked out and found to be inaccurate, certainly as far as Madeleine’s parents are concerned.

The information in the files isn't going to be forgotton no matter how fervently you wish it would. No conclusions were reached and no-one was ruled out at the end of the first investigation.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 10, 2019, 07:32:06 PM
The fact that Rebelo leading his high powered team personally checked the window of Madeleine's bedroom and tested the feasibility by sending a man through it shows I think that he placed great weight on Kate's eye witness testimony and there is no doubt he that he missed nothing in the course of his inspection.

He was a high powered highly motivated career Judicial police officer who wasn't about to let the side down by missing one shred of evidence to confirm the findings of the Amaral investigation ... I believe he must have been dismayed when the evidence took him in the opposite direction.  Leaving the public prosecutors to affirm that nothing which led Amaral's investigation to make them arguidos stood up to scrutiny.
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/zzrebelo3d.jpg.w300h156.jpg)
An officer attempts to enter the apartment through Maddie's bedroom window
Rebelo tests scenarios in Luz
Correio da Manha - 30 October 2007
Snip
Paulo Rebelo was even one of the elements of the team who paid most attention to the window, having risen and lowered the shutters several times, apparently evaluating its operation.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/rebelo-tests-scenarios-in-luz-cdm-30-10-07-t2344.html

If the podcast tries to rewrite the fact that the Judicial police and public prosecutors could find no criminal fault in Madeleine's parents it quite frankly is nothing more than a waste of bandwith.

And then Rebelo requested a reconstitution which included questions about the window. His investigations obviously threw up more questions than they answered.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 10, 2019, 07:37:10 PM

Kate said Madeleine wouldn't have gone through the patio doors and shut the curtain behind her, opened the child gate and shut it behind her opened the gate at the bottom of the steps and shut it behind her.   Also someone also said if Madeleine had gone out through the patio doors she would have been drawn to the lights of the Tapas and would have gone down to find her parents.    As for the front door did they find Madeleine's prints on it?

Kate also said to her friends that she and Gerry had left the patio doors open so Madeleine could come and find them if she woke....so which one is it ?

If the window and shutters weren’t open there would be no categorical evidence of abduction.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on March 10, 2019, 07:47:06 PM
The information in the files isn't going to be forgotton no matter how fervently you wish it would. No conclusions were reached and no-one was ruled out at the end of the first investigation.
There was no first investigation if your reference is to the one led by Amaral.  The first investigation started in May 2007 ended with the archiving dispatch of 2008.

Amaral was sacked from the investigation and Almeida the author of the interim report in the PJ files left shortly thereafter leaving the threads to be picked up by Rebelo and his highly competent and perfectly qualified team for such an investigation.

Continuing on from what had gone on before ... the Rebelo team found there was no evidence and never had been which justified the path taken by their predecessors.
If there had been they would have continued on that path and invited Kate and Gerry back to Portugal ... which as arguidos they could not refuse to do ... and taken the process forward from there.

There was no evidence and never had been to justify that course of action.  What evidence there was exonerated them ... which is why the public prosecutors said in effect that they never should have been made suspects in the first instance.

The tragedy of all this is that while police time and resources had been misdirected the focus of the police work on Madeleine was lost and goodness knows what initiatives on her behalf were missed.

I think the classic one being the time and effort spent analysing the phone traffic of the victims but apparently entirely ignoring phone traffic between burglars until it was taken up for investigation by Scotland Yard many years down the line.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 10, 2019, 07:59:15 PM
Kate also said to her friends that she and Gerry had left the patio doors open so Madeleine could come and find them if she woke....so which one is it ?

If the window and shutters weren’t open there would be no categorical evidence of abduction.
apparently there was no evidence that the window was opened either so...?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: niklasericson on March 10, 2019, 09:20:20 PM

Kate said Madeleine wouldn't have gone through the patio doors and shut the curtain behind her, opened the child gate and shut it behind her opened the gate at the bottom of the steps and shut it behind her.   Also someone also said if Madeleine had gone out through the patio doors she would have been drawn to the lights of the Tapas and would have gone down to find her parents.    As for the front door did they find Madeleine's prints on it?
"Shut the curtains"?
A small child can easily go through and behind curtains without open them.
How do we know that the gates were closed and locked?
Any independent witnesses?
For some reasons the OC replaced the small gate with a big door after what happened and take a look at view from the top of the stairs, it would only take a second or two for a child to run out on the street, dark and with a restricted view a driver would have no chance to stop a car.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 10, 2019, 10:20:32 PM
There was no first investigation if your reference is to the one led by Amaral.  The first investigation started in May 2007 ended with the archiving dispatch of 2008.

Amaral was sacked from the investigation and Almeida the author of the interim report in the PJ files left shortly thereafter leaving the threads to be picked up by Rebelo and his highly competent and perfectly qualified team for such an investigation.

Continuing on from what had gone on before ... the Rebelo team found there was no evidence and never had been which justified the path taken by their predecessors.
If there had been they would have continued on that path and invited Kate and Gerry back to Portugal ... which as arguidos they could not refuse to do ... and taken the process forward from there.

There was no evidence and never had been to justify that course of action. What evidence there was exonerated them ... which is why the public prosecutors said in effect that they never should have been made suspects in the first instance.

The tragedy of all this is that while police time and resources had been misdirected the focus of the police work on Madeleine was lost and goodness knows what initiatives on her behalf were missed.

I think the classic one being the time and effort spent analysing the phone traffic of the victims but apparently entirely ignoring phone traffic between burglars until it was taken up for investigation by Scotland Yard many years down the line.

The public prosecutors made it quite clear. When their friends refused to attend the reconstitution;

We believe that the main damage was caused to the McCann arguidos, who lost the possibility to prove what they have protested since they were constituted arguidos: their innocence towards the fateful event
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on March 10, 2019, 10:58:15 PM
The public prosecutors made it quite clear. When their friends refused to attend the reconstitution;

We believe that the main damage was caused to the McCann arguidos, who lost the possibility to prove what they have protested since they were constituted arguidos: their innocence towards the fateful event
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
Quote
To this can be added that, in reality, none of the indications that led to their constitution as arguidos was later confirmed or consolidated.
Portimăo, 21.07.08
 
The Republic’s Prosecutor
 
(José de Magalhăes e Menezes)
 
The Joint General Prosecutor
 
(Joăo Melchior Gomes)
 
in: Processo 201/07.0 GALGS – Volume XVII – pages 4639-4649 (Public Prosecutor’s Archiving Dispatch)


What the friends chose to do was entirely a matter for them.  It in no way detracts from the prosecutors' declaration that the reasons the missing child's parents were made suspects in the first instance were entirely unsubstantiated on investigation as detailed above (for the umpteenth time).

In other words ... had the police initially done their job with a modicum of competence ... they would have been capable of ascertaining that before making Kate and Gerry official suspects.

That is a very big issue under any circumstances but in deflecting the investigation away from throwing everything into finding out what happened to Madeleine McCann it must rank as one of the major police mistakes ever in a missing child investigation due to the investigators being completely out of their depth.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 10, 2019, 11:14:18 PM
The public prosecutors made it quite clear. When their friends refused to attend the reconstitution;

We believe that the main damage was caused to the McCann arguidos, who lost the possibility to prove what they have protested since they were constituted arguidos: their innocence towards the fateful event
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
Which is the biggest load of nonsense I’ve ever read, frankly.  A reconstitution could in no way have proven their innocence and to claim it could is disingenuous claptrap of the highest order.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on March 11, 2019, 06:51:01 AM
Which is the biggest load of nonsense I’ve ever read, frankly.  A reconstitution could in no way have proven their innocence and to claim it could is disingenuous claptrap of the highest order.
Of course you knowledge of such things is of an experience equal to and above that of the PJ at the time.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 11, 2019, 07:05:09 AM
Quote
To this can be added that, in reality, none of the indications that led to their constitution as arguidos was later confirmed or consolidated.
Portimăo, 21.07.08
 
The Republic’s Prosecutor
 
(José de Magalhăes e Menezes)
 
The Joint General Prosecutor
 
(Joăo Melchior Gomes)
 
in: Processo 201/07.0 GALGS – Volume XVII – pages 4639-4649 (Public Prosecutor’s Archiving Dispatch)


What the friends chose to do was entirely a matter for them.  It in no way detracts from the prosecutors' declaration that the reasons the missing child's parents were made suspects in the first instance were entirely unsubstantiated on investigation as detailed above (for the umpteenth time).

In other words ... had the police initially done their job with a modicum of competence ... they would have been capable of ascertaining that before making Kate and Gerry official suspects.

That is a very big issue under any circumstances but in deflecting the investigation away from throwing everything into finding out what happened to Madeleine McCann it must rank as one of the major police mistakes ever in a missing child investigation due to the investigators being completely out of their depth.

The situation, therefore, when the archiving dispatch was written was that the PJ couldn't prove guilt, but neither could the McCanns prove innocence. They weren't 'cleared', there was no evidence which exonerated them, it was stalemate. The PJ couldn't even identify the crime.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 11, 2019, 07:13:45 AM
Which is the biggest load of nonsense I’ve ever read, frankly.  A reconstitution could in no way have proven their innocence and to claim it could is disingenuous claptrap of the highest order.

That;s not the point. The point is that a prosecutor who thought that;

snip/
"What evidence there was exonerated them"
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10605.75

wouldn't have written that paragraph.


 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 11, 2019, 07:20:29 AM
Of course you knowledge of such things is of an experience equal to and above that of the PJ at the time.
It is plain common sense, if you can’t appreciate that, then I can’t help you.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 11, 2019, 07:25:12 AM
That;s not the point. The point is that a prosecutor who thought that;

snip/
"What evidence there was exonerated them"
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10605.75

wouldn't have written that paragraph.
The point is it was a damnfool stupid observation, written in a Portuguese judicial summary which just goes to show the level of understanding and intelligence  the McCanns have had to deal with pretty much from day one. IMO.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 11, 2019, 07:25:50 AM
The latest podcast says Murat has been thoroughly investigated by Portuguese police... Has been awarded damages for being wrongly implicated in the case and has been cleared.... Why doesn't that apply to the mccanns
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 11, 2019, 07:32:31 AM
That;s not the point. The point is that a prosecutor who thought that;

snip/
"What evidence there was exonerated them"
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10605.75

wouldn't have written that paragraph.

Are we back to the mccanns having to prove their innocence and not being entitled to the presumption of innocence
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 11, 2019, 08:06:56 AM
The point is it was a damnfool stupid observation, written in a Portuguese judicial summary which just goes to show the level of understanding and intelligence  the McCanns have had to deal with pretty much from day one. IMO.

Those damnfool stupid prosecutors who wrote an archiving dspatch upon which the McCanns based their claim of being cleared. Perhaps they should have read all of it before making that claim? As the SC judges pointed out; the contents didn't fit with the conclusion upon which the McCanns and their 'experts' relied.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 11, 2019, 08:11:27 AM
Those damnfool stupid prosecutors who wrote an archiving dspatch upon which the McCanns based their claim of being cleared. Perhaps they should have read all of it before making that claim? As the SC judges pointed out; the contents didn't fit with the conclusion upon which the McCanns and their 'experts' relied.
It was all they had to work with and perhaps they hoped that the court would realise the stupidity or mendacity of that particular passage.  It would have been more honest and more logical if it had read
“We believe the main damage caused to our case against the McCanns was their failure to turn up to our reconstitution which we hoped would prove them guilty”. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 11, 2019, 08:11:51 AM
Those damnfool stupid prosecutors who wrote an archiving dspatch upon which the McCanns based their claim of being cleared. Perhaps they should have read all of it before making that claim? As the SC judges pointed out; the contents didn't fit with the conclusion upon which the McCanns and their 'experts' relied.

The SC judges read in the court transcripts that the dogs signalled cadaver odour in several places...were they aware this was not confirmed ....I think possibly not
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 11, 2019, 08:43:23 AM
Are we back to the mccanns having to prove their innocence and not being entitled to the presumption of innocence

No, it's not about that. It's about whether the public prosecutors declared them innocent, as they and their supporters claim or whether they didn't, as the SC judges ruled.

Article 277/1 says;

The Public Ministry shall, by dispatch, close the investigation, as soon as it has gathered sufficient evidence that the crime was not confirmed, that the arguido did not practice it in any way or that the procedure is legally inadmissible

Yipee! That does indeed suggest that they were cleared. The contents of the document say quite clearly, however, that they were not. That's why the SC judges said the case should have been archived ubder 277/2;

The investigation shall also be closed if it had not been possible for the Public Ministry to obtain sufficient evidence confirming the crime or who were the authors.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Annulment_request.htm

277/2 fits what the prosecutors actually said;

While it is an unavoidable fact that Madeleine disappeared from Apartment 5A of the 'Ocean Club', the manner and circumstances under which this happened are not - despite the numerous diligences made in that sense -, therefore the range of crimes that were indicated and referred to during the inquiry remains untouched.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm

That means they didn't identify the crime. If they couldn't identify the crime they could  hardly say who did or didn't commit it. That would be saying "We don't know what happened to Madeleine but we know her parents didn't do it" That makes no sense.
'

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 11, 2019, 08:46:16 AM
No, it's not about that. It's about whether the public prosecutors declared them innocent, as they and their supporters claim or whether they didn't, as the SC judges ruled.

Article 277/1 says;

The Public Ministry shall, by dispatch, close the investigation, as soon as it has gathered sufficient evidence that the crime was not confirmed, that the arguido did not practice it in any way or that the procedure is legally inadmissible

Yipee! That does indeed suggest that they were cleared. The contents of the document say quite clearly, however, that they were not. That's why the SC judges said the case should have been archived ubder 277/2;

The investigation shall also be closed if it had not been possible for the Public Ministry to obtain sufficient evidence confirming the crime or who were the authors.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Annulment_request.htm

277/2 fits what the prosecutors actually said;

While it is an unavoidable fact that Madeleine disappeared from Apartment 5A of the 'Ocean Club', the manner and circumstances under which this happened are not - despite the numerous diligences made in that sense -, therefore the range of crimes that were indicated and referred to during the inquiry remains untouched.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm

That means they didn't identify the crime. If they couldn't identify the crime they could  hardly say who did or didn't commit it. That would be saying "We don't know what happened to Madeleine but we know her parents didn't do it" That makes no sense.
'
Of course it makes sense.  Apply that logic to any number of other cases: Needham, Lawrence, etc

We don’t know what crime was committed but we know Murat didn’t do it - does thst make no sense to you?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 11, 2019, 08:48:14 AM
It was all they had to work with and perhaps they hoped that the court would realise the stupidity or mendacity of that particular passage.  It would have been more honest and more logical if it had read
“We believe the main damage caused to our case against the McCanns was their failure to turn up to our reconstitution which we hoped would prove them guilty”.

I'm afraid they said what they said, not hat you think they should have said.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on March 11, 2019, 08:50:03 AM
"Shut the curtains"?
A small child can easily go through and behind curtains without open them.
How do we know that the gates were closed and locked?
Any independent witnesses?
For some reasons the OC replaced the small gate with a big door after what happened and take a look at view from the top of the stairs, it would only take a second or two for a child to run out on the street, dark and with a restricted view a driver would have no chance to stop a car.

Did the driver then stop to clean the blood off the road?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 11, 2019, 08:50:35 AM
Of course it makes sense.  Apply that logic to any number of other cases: Needham, Lawrence, etc

We don’t know what crime was committed but we know Murat didn’t do it - does thst make no sense to you?

Did they say that? A cite would be appreciated.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 11, 2019, 08:51:17 AM
I'm afraid they said what they said, not hat you think they should have said.
You don’t say!  And I’m saying that what they said was beyond idiotic, IMO.  I’m sure anyone who possesses the ability to think logically would have to agree even if they refuse to admit it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 11, 2019, 08:52:54 AM
Did they say that? A cite would be appreciated.
It was a rhetorical question which I am asking so that you can apply your critical faculties to a scenario that doesn’t involve the McCanns and to hopefully highlight the idiocy of your proposition.  IMO.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 11, 2019, 09:16:06 AM
You don’t say!  And I’m saying that what they said was beyond idiotic, IMO.  I’m sure anyone who possesses the ability to think logically would have to agree even if they refuse to admit it.


They didn't seem to be all that bright. They used the wrong part of Article 277 in their archiving dispatch too. Those relying on the prosecutors to support their positions (including the McCanns) are putting their faith in the wrong people it seems.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 11, 2019, 09:24:52 AM
No, it's not about that. It's about whether the public prosecutors declared them innocent, as they and their supporters claim or whether they didn't, as the SC judges ruled.

Article 277/1 says;

The Public Ministry shall, by dispatch, close the investigation, as soon as it has gathered sufficient evidence that the crime was not confirmed, that the arguido did not practice it in any way or that the procedure is legally inadmissible

Yipee! That does indeed suggest that they were cleared. The contents of the document say quite clearly, however, that they were not. That's why the SC judges said the case should have been archived ubder 277/2;

The investigation shall also be closed if it had not been possible for the Public Ministry to obtain sufficient evidence confirming the crime or who were the authors.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Annulment_request.htm

277/2 fits what the prosecutors actually said;

While it is an unavoidable fact that Madeleine disappeared from Apartment 5A of the 'Ocean Club', the manner and circumstances under which this happened are not - despite the numerous diligences made in that sense -, therefore the range of crimes that were indicated and referred to during the inquiry remains untouched.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm

That means they didn't identify the crime. If they couldn't identify the crime they could  hardly say who did or didn't commit it. That would be saying "We don't know what happened to Madeleine but we know her parents didn't do it" That makes no sense.
'

of course they were not declared innocent...and as far as I know they have never claimed to be declared innocent...


we don't know what happened to Maddie but its clear her parents were not involved
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 11, 2019, 09:33:10 AM

They didn't seem to be all that bright. They used the wrong part of Article 277 in their archiving dispatch too. Those relying on the prosecutors to support their positions (including the McCanns) are putting their faith in the wrong people it seems.
AS I said earlier, it's all they had to work with.  Surely you can appreciate the Kafkaesque nightmare of their situation, if you can for just one second imagine the possibility that they didn't have anything to do with Madeleine's disappearance?  I know it's hard but try!
[Definition of Kafkaesque. : of, relating to, or suggestive of Franz Kafka or his writings especially : having a nightmarishly complex, bizarre, or illogical quality Kafkaesque bureaucratic delays.]
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 11, 2019, 09:34:39 AM
https://omny.fm/shows/maddie/man-with-no-face
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 11, 2019, 09:47:03 AM
AS I said earlier, it's all they had to work with.  Surely you can appreciate the Kafkaesque nightmare of their situation, if you can for just one second imagine the possibility that they didn't have anything to do with Madeleine's disappearance?  I know it's hard but try!

I don't know if they had anything to do with it or not. What I do know is that their evidence and behaviour has led many people, including the PJ, to have doubts about them.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 11, 2019, 09:56:11 AM
I don't know if they had anything to do with it or not. What I do know is that their evidence and behaviour has led many people, including the PJ, to have doubts about them.

doubts do not make someone guilty...evidence does.....people need to remember that
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on March 11, 2019, 10:15:27 AM
I don't know if they had anything to do with it or not. What I do know is that their evidence and behaviour has led many people, including the PJ, to have doubts about them.
The Amaral investigation may have had their doubts which propelled them into declaring them formal suspects in the days prior to a change in the law which would not have allowed such an action without supporting evidence ... which as we have seen did not exist.
The Rebelo team relied on what evidence there was which when presented to the public prosecutors led to the case being archived and the arguido status - which should never have been imposed in the first instance - being lifted.

Proper interpretation of the forensic results sent from the FSS being paramount in this.

What exactly do you mean by "behaviour"???  Are you basing your assessment of this on the opinion of the 'body language experts' on Portuguese television etc making capital out of which ear Gerry scratched or Kate not crying to suit or shedding a tear on cue?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 11, 2019, 10:20:08 AM
I don't know if they had anything to do with it or not. What I do know is that their evidence and behaviour has led many people, including the PJ, to have doubts about them.
Did you address my point or did you neatly dodge it? 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 11, 2019, 10:49:00 AM
The Amaral investigation may have had their doubts which propelled them into declaring them formal suspects in the days prior to a change in the law which would not have allowed such an action without supporting evidence ... which as we have seen did not exist.
The Rebelo team relied on what evidence there was which when presented to the public prosecutors led to the case being archived and the arguido status - which should never have been imposed in the first instance - being lifted.

Proper interpretation of the forensic results sent from the FSS being paramount in this.

What exactly do you mean by "behaviour"???  Are you basing your assessment of this on the opinion of the 'body language experts' on Portuguese television etc making capital out of which ear Gerry scratched or Kate not crying to suit or shedding a tear on cue?
&%%6

Please ignore Kate's book, again, when she wrote that the McCann's had announced their decision to leave Portugal.  Not even Kate claims it had anything to do with a legal change that would occur around 8 days later.

 &%%6
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 11, 2019, 11:03:31 AM
doubts do not make someone guilty...evidence does.....people need to remember that

I never said they did. I said they were the source of the doubts, no-one else. In a sumilar vein beliefs don't make someone innocent, evidence does. People need to remember that also.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 11, 2019, 11:06:04 AM
I never said they did. I said they were the source of the doubts, no-one else. In a sumilar vein beliefs don't make someone innocent, evidence does. People need to remember that also.
the lack of incriminating evidence points to innocence...but innocence is often impossible to prove......there is plenty of evidence to support the mccanns innocence
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 11, 2019, 11:14:51 AM
The Amaral investigation may have had their doubts which propelled them into declaring them formal suspects in the days prior to a change in the law which would not have allowed such an action without supporting evidence ... which as we have seen did not exist.
The Rebelo team relied on what evidence there was which when presented to the public prosecutors led to the case being archived and the arguido status - which should never have been imposed in the first instance - being lifted.

Proper interpretation of the forensic results sent from the FSS being paramount in this.

What exactly do you mean by "behaviour"???  Are you basing your assessment of this on the opinion of the 'body language experts' on Portuguese television etc making capital out of which ear Gerry scratched or Kate not crying to suit or shedding a tear on cue?

Behaviour includes speech, demeanor and actions. Many people found much of it unconvincing for all sorts of reasons.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 11, 2019, 11:37:41 AM
Behaviour includes speech, demeanor and actions. Many people found much of it unconvincing for all sorts of reasons.
Not the FLO's they didn't.  Granted the Portuguese police may have done, but then they had language and cultural issues which may have coloured their perception. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on March 11, 2019, 11:51:12 AM
&%%6

Please ignore Kate's book, again, when she wrote that the McCann's had announced their decision to leave Portugal.  Not even Kate claims it had anything to do with a legal change that would occur around 8 days later.

 &%%6

You have totally misrepresented what I said in my post.  Please desist.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on March 11, 2019, 11:54:22 AM
Not the FLO's they didn't.  Granted the Portuguese police may have done, but then they had language and cultural issues which may have coloured their perception.

They were also in haste to have the case wrapped up and out of the way and the McCanns might have been an obstruction to that in that they wanted their daughter found.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 11, 2019, 12:04:36 PM
You have totally misrepresented what I said in my post.  Please desist.
I will look up the specific quote from Kate's book, yet again,
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on March 11, 2019, 12:17:33 PM
I will look up the specific quote from Kate's book, yet again,

You have totally misunderstood my post which has absolutely nothing to do with anything Kate said or did at any time.

Please read my original post again for clarification.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 11, 2019, 12:49:45 PM
I will look up the specific quote from Kate's book, yet again,
You seem to feel the need to modify my posts my posts heavily?  Why?

If you can't answer simple questions with KISS, it is very revealing.

One of our dogs, Sky, never backs off.    I don't either.

You can bring this to an end by simply replying.  Or can you?

 *%87
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 11, 2019, 01:04:25 PM
They were also in haste to have the case wrapped up and out of the way and the McCanns might have been an obstruction to that in that they wanted their daughter found.

I think you'll find it was the other way round. They acted while they could after being told that the McCanns were leaving.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 11, 2019, 01:53:14 PM
Number 1 on UK charts now.

http://www.itunescharts.net/uk/charts/podcasts/
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on March 11, 2019, 01:54:55 PM

Some of these comments are bordering on Libel.  Please stop now, because I am not having this.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 11, 2019, 01:56:01 PM
Number 1 on UK charts now.

http://www.itunescharts.net/uk/charts/podcasts/
Great, I shall be tuning in on Thursday evening to watch him on Top Of the Pops.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 11, 2019, 02:00:02 PM
Number 1 on UK charts now.

http://www.itunescharts.net/uk/charts/podcasts/

Strangely CMOMM have removed all reference to it
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on March 12, 2019, 10:27:15 AM
Strangely CMOMM have removed all reference to it

I wonder why?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 12, 2019, 11:44:01 AM
Strangely CMOMM have removed all reference to it

No they haven't.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 12, 2019, 11:48:46 AM
Here is a link to all the podcasts on nine news

https://omny.fm/shows/maddie/playlists/podcast
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 12, 2019, 11:48:57 AM
No they haven't.

I'm fairly sure, there, was a thread on it which seems Ti have disappeared
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 12, 2019, 11:49:32 AM
Here is a link to all the podcasts on nine news

https://omny.fm/shows/maddie/playlists/podcast
Would you recommend them? 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 12, 2019, 12:13:07 PM
I'm fairly sure, there, was a thread on it which seems Ti have disappeared

It hasn't.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on March 12, 2019, 12:15:14 PM
Would you recommend them?

Only if I was drumming up numbers for the purpose of enhancing sponsorship payments ... if that is how it works.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on March 12, 2019, 12:27:47 PM
I'm fairly sure, there, was a thread on it which seems Ti have disappeared


There was a thread but it seems to have been hidden from public viewing.
Members only?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 12, 2019, 12:30:34 PM
It hasn't.

It's disappeared ..if it's been hidden it's disappeared
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 12, 2019, 12:35:50 PM
The podcasts, are simply rehashing the old findings and views..he has said he has something  new in the DNA front and I suspect it's something to di with True Allele which looks, at mixed samples... I dint think it will be if any use in this case... We will see
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 12, 2019, 12:45:35 PM
Would you recommend them?

It's up to you what you do. I suggest you listen if you want to comment on this thread.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 12, 2019, 12:47:52 PM
It's up to you what you do. I suggest you listen if you want to comment on this thread.
Have you listened to them all?  Do they tell you anything you didn't already know, or were any opinions voiced you hadn't already heard?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 12, 2019, 12:58:33 PM
It's disappeared ..if it's been hidden it's disappeared

Your opriginal claim that  they had 'removed all reference to it' was incorrect. Just because you can'r see something doesn't mean it's not there.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 12, 2019, 01:02:02 PM
Your opriginal claim that  they had 'removed all reference to it' was incorrect. Just because you can'r see something doesn't mean it's not there.
Why has it been hidden?  I thought there would be mucho gloating?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on March 12, 2019, 01:09:38 PM
The podcasts, are simply rehashing the old findings and views..he has said he has something  new in the DNA front and I suspect it's something to di with True Allele which looks, at mixed samples... I dint think it will be if any use in this case... We will see

I agree but you would think they would report all the facts nearly 12 years on.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 12, 2019, 01:10:14 PM
Have you listened to them all?  Do they tell you anything you didn't already know, or were any opinions voiced you hadn't already heard?

I will comment if and when I feel the need.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 12, 2019, 01:16:37 PM
Your opriginal claim that  they had 'removed all reference to it' was incorrect. Just because you can'r see something doesn't mean it's not there.
ess

It was on site for public view.   ...it's now disappeared...if you wish to disagree fine..  But it's pointless to argue, as you seem to want to do... And it begs the question.. Why
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 12, 2019, 01:27:24 PM
I agree but you would think they would report all the facts nearly 12 years on.

In my opinion CMOMM are now in a similar position to those who support the McCann;s version of events. Both groups believe they know what happened so anything that doesn't fit with their beliefs has to be rejected.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 12, 2019, 01:28:19 PM
I agree but you would think they would report all the facts nearly 12 years on.

He is pushing parental involvement so he's reporting what suits him... He reports that petermac says, the window is to small fir a man to climb through... Which it false ... But doesn't report that petermac says the shutters can be opened fron the outside... Preferring amarals opinion that the shutters, couldn't be opened from the outside.. Which again is, false
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 12, 2019, 01:33:49 PM
Is there any sceptic here who has actually listened to these podcasts who is prepared to offer an opinion on the content?  Or is it simply enough that they exist and question the parents' version of events, no matter how many falsehoods or myths they contain?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on March 12, 2019, 01:36:42 PM
Is there any sceptic here who has actually listened to these podcasts who is prepared to offer an opinion on the content?  Or is it simply enough that they exist and question the parents' version of events, no matter how many falsehoods or myths they contain?

Got it in one. It's not causing sceptics any angst
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 12, 2019, 01:55:12 PM
Smithman can hide Maddy but not his overconfident cocky self! Best play the mute role again!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 12, 2019, 01:56:31 PM
Got it in one. It's not causing sceptics any angst
On the contrary, it seems to be causing a lot of happiness in those circles, obviously they have very low standards when it comes to supposedly fact-based podcasts...  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 12, 2019, 02:04:48 PM
It’s interesting that I have not found one podcast which actively supports the parents innocence.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 12, 2019, 02:06:48 PM
It’s interesting that I have not found one podcast which actively supports the parents innocence.
Podcasts of this nature are the preserve of people who feel that their causes are being ignored by the "MSM" in my experience....  Why would anyone need to make a podcast supporting the parents' innocence??  Has anyone made a podcast supporting the idea that Al Qaeda flew planes into the twin towers?  Or that man landed on the moon? 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on March 12, 2019, 03:57:29 PM
Why the obsession with going over the first four months of a botched police investigation in a pejorative way aimed solely at decrying the parents of a missing child.

The first hours and days were the crucial time in which to have any chance of finding out what happened to Madeleine when everything was fresh in witnesses' minds.

In my opinion the incompetence married to the ineptitude of the investigators over the first four months set the seal on any chance Madeleine had either of being recovered shortly after she disappeared or finding what had become of her.
The police tactic of tainting those first four vital months of the investigation with defamatory leaks to the press designed to decry eye witness statements and to assassinate the character of the victim's parents later the accused, could never have helped to solve whatever or whoever happened to Madeleine.
It was only a barrier to solving the case particularly as the golden hours crucial in a missing child case were squandered as a result.

Amaral's sacking came too late in the day to undo that level of harm.

Why eulogise the botched ideas which led to the four months of a botched investigation in a niche podcast for the few believers in the excellence of the first four months of the police investigation?
It flies in the face of the fact that Amaral ... the coordinator ... was sacked from it ignominiously.

It was the Portuguese authorities who did that ... so they must have had good reason.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 12, 2019, 04:31:52 PM
Why the obsession with going over the first four months of a botched police investigation in a pejorative way aimed solely at decrying the parents of a missing child.

The first hours and days were the crucial time in which to have any chance of finding out what happened to Madeleine when everything was fresh in witnesses' minds.

In my opinion the incompetence married to the ineptitude of the investigators over the first four months set the seal on any chance Madeleine had either of being recovered shortly after she disappeared or finding what had become of her.
The police tactic of tainting those first four vital months of the investigation with defamatory leaks to the press designed to decry eye witness statements and to assassinate the character of the victim's parents later the accused, could never have helped to solve whatever or whoever happened to Madeleine.
It was only a barrier to solving the case particularly as the golden hours crucial in a missing child case were squandered as a result.

Amaral's sacking came too late in the day to undo that level of harm.

Why eulogise the botched ideas which led to the four months of a botched investigation in a niche podcast for the few believers in the excellence of the first four months of the police investigation?
It flies in the face of the fact that Amaral ... the coordinator ... was sacked from it ignominiously.

It was the Portuguese authorities who did that ... so they must have had good reason.

Of course they did...and we’ve been told the reason... he spoke off the record in a disparaging way about the U.K. police involved in the investigation. I find it rather disingenuous for you to suggest that there was more to it on the Portuguese side then that.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on March 12, 2019, 04:38:36 PM
Why the obsession with going over the first four months of a botched police investigation in a pejorative way aimed solely at decrying the parents of a missing child.

The first hours and days were the crucial time in which to have any chance of finding out what happened to Madeleine when everything was fresh in witnesses' minds.

In my opinion the incompetence married to the ineptitude of the investigators over the first four months set the seal on any chance Madeleine had either of being recovered shortly after she disappeared or finding what had become of her.
The police tactic of tainting those first four vital months of the investigation with defamatory leaks to the press designed to decry eye witness statements and to assassinate the character of the victim's parents later the accused, could never have helped to solve whatever or whoever happened to Madeleine.
It was only a barrier to solving the case particularly as the golden hours crucial in a missing child case were squandered as a result.

Amaral's sacking came too late in the day to undo that level of harm.

Why eulogise the botched ideas which led to the four months of a botched investigation in a niche podcast for the few believers in the excellence of the first four months of the police investigation?
It flies in the face of the fact that Amaral ... the coordinator ... was sacked from it ignominiously.

It was the Portuguese authorities who did that ... so they must have had good reason.
8@??)(
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 12, 2019, 04:41:44 PM
Smithman can hide Maddy but not his overconfident cocky self! Best play the mute role again!
A non sequitur if ever there was one, and one that was liked by our resident Objective Evaluator of the Facts.  How very strange, I wonder what there was to like about this post?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on March 12, 2019, 05:45:45 PM
Got it in one. It's not causing sceptics any angst

I can only speak for myself as a "supporter"  but it is certainly not causing me any "angst".
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on March 12, 2019, 05:57:15 PM
I can only speak for myself as a "supporter"  but it is certainly not causing me any "angst".

No,no, of course not. I bet you are really happy that the blog is out there available to a wide audience.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 12, 2019, 06:07:24 PM
No,no, of course not. I bet you are really happy that the blog is out there available to a wide audience.
It doesn’t matter if all 7 billion people on the planet listen to it, it changes nothing.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on March 12, 2019, 06:11:05 PM
It doesn’t matter if all 7 billion people on the planet listen to it, it changes nothing.

Is that you, Theresa ?   @)(++(*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 12, 2019, 06:11:43 PM
No,no, of course not. I bet you are really happy that the blog is out there available to a wide audience.

Don’t forget No.1 in the itune charts.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 12, 2019, 06:12:12 PM
Is that you, Theresa ?   @)(++(*
Yes, just taking a break to log on to the JF before the big vote later. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 12, 2019, 06:14:34 PM
Don’t forget No.1 in the itune charts.
I thought that was George Ezra?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on March 12, 2019, 06:25:39 PM
Of course they did...and we’ve been told the reason... he spoke off the record in a disparaging way about the U.K. police involved in the investigation. I find it rather disingenuous for you to suggest that there was more to it on the Portuguese side then that.

I wonder why he spoke off the record in a disparaging way about the UK police involved in the investigation, when he said they supported his theory?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 12, 2019, 06:50:32 PM
I wonder why he spoke off the record in a disparaging way about the UK police involved in the investigation, when he said they supported his theory?

No idea but it was very naughty of Brietta to suggest that we didn’t know the reason.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 12, 2019, 07:03:40 PM
No idea but it was very naughty of Brietta to suggest that we didn’t know the reason.
A bit like when you suggest that when the Met say they aren’t treating the McCanns as suspects it means that they are..  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on March 12, 2019, 07:43:44 PM
I thought that was George Ezra?

A very favourite of mine and hubby's.
Grandchildren all off to see him soon..
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 12, 2019, 08:34:52 PM
No they haven't.

I'm fairly sure, there, was a thread on it which seems Ti have disappeared
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on March 12, 2019, 08:41:07 PM
I'm fairly sure, there, was a thread on it which seems Ti have disappeared

There was.
It has been removed from public viewing.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 12, 2019, 08:43:50 PM
Supporters here seem to spend more time on CMOMM than the so called sceptics.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 12, 2019, 08:47:53 PM
A very favourite of mine and hubby's.
Grandchildren all off to see him soon..

Mine too... Budapest
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on March 12, 2019, 08:58:49 PM
Mine too... Budapest

Hard to choose.
So many great songs.
Love the video he did with Sir Ian McKellen.
Brilliant!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on March 12, 2019, 09:48:28 PM
Supporters here seem to spend more time on CMOMM than the so called sceptics.

It's a very interesting site to view.
Never tempted to have a look?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 12, 2019, 10:18:06 PM
It’s interesting that when you go on itunes itself and type in “podcasts” there is no sign at all of their alleged number one podcast.  Why is that I wonder...?  Also, no podcast chart on the actual itunes. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 12, 2019, 10:26:55 PM
Here is a link to all the podcasts on nine news

https://omny.fm/shows/maddie/playlists/podcast
It gets a bit confusing as to the order that they should be viewed, or is the no special order?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on March 12, 2019, 10:29:26 PM
It’s interesting that when you go on itunes itself and type in “podcasts” there is no sign at all of their alleged number one podcast.  Why is that I wonder...?  Also, no podcast chart on the actual itunes.
http://www.itunescharts.net/uk/charts/podcasts/
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 12, 2019, 10:31:41 PM
http://www.itunescharts.net/uk/charts/podcasts/
That website is not the official itunes page, it’s done by a third party.  Have a look at the real itunes.

From the website you linked to above:

How are these charts calculated?

The short answer is "we don't know". They're calculated and compiled by iTunes, we can only assume they're based on downloads. Given that the published charts are presented as "live" rather than covering any specified timeslot, there's obviously some kind of algorithm at play, but beyond that it's anybody's guess. Podcast charts are slightly different since these are charts of "channels" producing content on a rolling basis, rather than a finished product like an album or a song. Again, the chart is most likely based on downloads but may also be based on new subscriptions too.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 12, 2019, 10:43:04 PM
After some time digging about on itunes I have found their podcast chart and it would seem Maddie is number one based on all nine episodes together, whereas individual episodes rank much lower down the chart.  There is certainly no mention of Maddie on the itunes podcast front page however. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on March 12, 2019, 10:57:03 PM
That website is not the official itunes page, it’s done by a third party.  Have a look at the real itunes.

From the website you linked to above:

How are these charts calculated?

The short answer is "we don't know". They're calculated and compiled by iTunes, we can only assume they're based on downloads. Given that the published charts are presented as "live" rather than covering any specified timeslot, there's obviously some kind of algorithm at play, but beyond that it's anybody's guess. Podcast charts are slightly different since these are charts of "channels" producing content on a rolling basis, rather than a finished product like an album or a song. Again, the chart is most likely based on downloads but may also be based on new subscriptions too.

Sorry, I didn't read the small print. :(
When it was first published I signed up to itunes then discovered a monthly fee is payable after 30 days free trial.  The podcast is also available on GooglePlay for free, which is the method I used to listen to the first three episodes. I wonder where GP's listening figures are correlated for Mark's podcasts?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 12, 2019, 11:04:23 PM
Sorry, I didn't read the small print. :(
When it was first published I signed up to itunes then discovered a monthly fee is payable after 30 days free trial.  The podcast is also available on GooglePlay for free, which is the method I used to listen to the first three episodes. I wonder where GP's listening figures are correlated for Mark's podcasts?
I thought you had to pay a subscription for googleplay too.  I find the whole thing a bit baffling tbh, would rather listen to Radio Four. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 12, 2019, 11:07:16 PM
Interesting...
https://podnews.net/article/rotten-apple-podcast-charts

https://podnews.net/article/apple-podcast-charts-manipulated-proof
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 12, 2019, 11:09:31 PM
Ooh, ever so interesting
https://podnews.net/update/airtasker-podcast-charts
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 12, 2019, 11:15:47 PM
Hmmmm....

https://chartable.com/blog/chartbreakers
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on March 12, 2019, 11:17:13 PM
I thought you had to pay a subscription for googleplay too.  I find the whole thing a bit baffling tbh, would rather listen to Radio Four.

Maybe you do now if you stream music on GP but I don't use my phone for that. Certainly the GP podcast app is free to listen to, although I couldn't download it onto my laptop, only my phone.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 12, 2019, 11:19:39 PM
https://www.cultofmac.com/593398/it-only-costs-5-to-game-apples-podcast-charts/
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on March 12, 2019, 11:23:41 PM
Hmmmm....

https://chartable.com/blog/chartbreakers

In line with much of the McCann case, nothing is as it seems. To be fair to Saunokonoko, though, I think the publicity on Australian TV & Social Media probably has generated several thousand listeners.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on March 12, 2019, 11:30:02 PM
In line with much of the McCann case, nothing is as it seems. To be fair to Saunokonoko, though, I think the publicity on Australian TV & Social Media probably has generated several thousand listeners.

One individual putting in all that effort for why?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 12, 2019, 11:36:38 PM
It's a very interesting site to view.
Never tempted to have a look?

Nope.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on March 12, 2019, 11:40:32 PM
One individual putting in all that effort for why?

I guess he's just as obsessed with the case as we are, possibly as a result of the intense coverage of William Tyrrell's disappearance down under.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 12, 2019, 11:40:51 PM
One individual putting in all that effort for why?

Perhaps because  he’s a journalist and he’s doing his job ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 12, 2019, 11:44:30 PM
Perhaps because  he’s a journalist and he’s doing his job ?
What has he uncovered?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on March 12, 2019, 11:53:23 PM
What has he uncovered?
What could he uncover being stuck in a time warp?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 13, 2019, 12:01:58 AM
I think it would have been remiss of the journalist if he hadn’t recapped the foundations of this case. Remember this is a nine part series and we are only three episodes in. Can I also remind supporters that Mr Summers and wife’s tome was simply a rehash of old newspaper articles with bits of the Portuguese files thrown in for good measure and, as far as I could see, had not one scintilla of original investigative work between its covers.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 13, 2019, 07:23:55 AM
I think it would have been remiss of the journalist if he hadn’t recapped the foundations of this case. Remember this is a nine part series and we are only three episodes in. Can I also remind supporters that Mr Summers and wife’s tome was simply a rehash of old newspaper articles with bits of the Portuguese files thrown in for good measure and, as far as I could see, had not one scintilla of original investigative work between its covers.
For which you and Maddie’s Barmy Army gave it a right royal shredding online.  Something tells me you’ll be kinder to Mark Unpronounceable ‘s podcasts.  I wonder why.... @)(++(*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 13, 2019, 10:59:26 AM
For which you and Maddie’s Barmy Army gave it a right royal shredding online.  Something tells me you’ll be kinder to Mark Unpronounceable ‘s podcasts.  I wonder why.... @)(++(*
&%%6
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on March 13, 2019, 02:28:42 PM
A very favourite of mine and hubby's.
Grandchildren all off to see him soon..

I love 'Shotgun'
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on March 13, 2019, 02:52:30 PM
I love 'Shotgun'

Gosh.  So do I.  You can actually sing along.  But I didn't know who it was.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 13, 2019, 05:55:19 PM
&%%6
You are rather fond of the Wow! emoticon aren’t you?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 13, 2019, 08:18:04 PM
You are rather fond of the Wow! emoticon aren’t you?
It depends entirely on the amount of dross broadcast on here.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 13, 2019, 08:29:25 PM
It depends entirely on the amount of dross broadcast on here.
&%%6
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 14, 2019, 11:24:21 AM
The Sun being called to account........again.


(https://i.servimg.com/u/f21/19/27/35/84/scree111.jpg)

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 14, 2019, 11:56:11 AM
The Sun being called to account........again.


(https://i.servimg.com/u/f21/19/27/35/84/scree111.jpg)

Sone if us, already realise papers misquote.... Every time the spoken wird passes, from one to another there is the possibility for error
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on March 14, 2019, 12:15:54 PM
Sone if us, already realise papers misquote.... Every time the spoken wird passes, from one to another there is the possibility for error
I think once the genie is out of the bottle it stays out.

I wonder if Colin Sutton has never wondered why it took Rebelo to think about a reconstruction months after the event ... and Amaral did not bother at any time when he was the case coordinator?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 14, 2019, 12:17:01 PM
Sone if us, already realise papers misquote.... Every time the spoken wird passes, from one to another there is the possibility for error

Error or deliberate distortion by a journalist who lacks integrity?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 14, 2019, 12:26:25 PM
Error or deliberate distortion by a journalist who lacks integrity?

Who knows.. That's why I prefer accurate verbatim statements... Less room for error
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 14, 2019, 03:05:34 PM
Who knows.. That's why I prefer accurate verbatim statements... Less room for error

There are a couple of rogatory interviews which could qualify as specialist subjects on Mastermind in my opinion.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on March 14, 2019, 03:11:28 PM
There are a couple of rogatory interviews which could qualify as specialist subjects on Mastermind in my opinion.

You mean on how to waffle an answer?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 14, 2019, 04:53:13 PM
You mean on how to waffle an answer?
Waffles.  Yum!

 &^^&*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 14, 2019, 05:56:46 PM
You mean on how to waffle an answer?

Waffle and not answer more like.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 24, 2019, 08:40:25 AM
https://www.9news.com.au/2019/03/23/20/27/madeleine-mccann-dna-car-evidence-could-now-be-solved-maddie-podcast

EXCLUSIVE: Maddie's DNA could be present in crucial samples as world expert rips up 'failed' UK forensic tests

One of the world's leading DNA scientists – whose lab helped identify victims of the 9/11 terror attack - has told Nine.com.au he believes he can answer a major forensic question that baffled investigators and could finally help solve what happened to missing girl Madeleine McCann, more than 11 years after she mysteriously vanished.

Speaking in tomorrow's fifth episode of Maddie, an American DNA expert reveals potentially case-changing insights into the DNA samples that were taken from the McCann's holiday apartment and rental car in 2007. Those samples were later judged to be inconclusive.

The chief scientist at a US-based, world renowned lab has reviewed the now out-dated testing methods used by the UK's Forensic Science Service (FSS) in 2007 to analyse the McCann samples. He has also examined a crucial final DNA report that was sent to the Portuguese police.

Portuguese police sent DNA samples to the FSS for testing after two specialist sniffer dogs trained to detect the scent of death and human blood alerted in the McCann's holiday apartment and a rental car hired three weeks after Maddie vanished. The FSS analysed the samples but struggled to untangle and decipher the potentially explosive evidence.

"[The FSS testing] failed in this case 10 years ago," the DNA scientist said.

"If a lab can produce informative data, even if it is complex and mixed, but they can't interpret it then you can have tremendous injustice - of guilty people not being convicted, or innocent people staying in prison. What is needed is an objective and accurate interpretation that can scientifically resolve the DNA."

The inconclusive DNA results from the FSS appeared to cast serious doubt over the earlier work of the cadaver dogs that had searched the potential crime scenes.



Kate and Gerry McCann 'less than convincing', former UK ambassador claims


The US forensic lab has forged a global reputation through solving previously indecipherable DNA samples. It has played a pivotal role in a number of high-profile US criminal trials involving wrongful convictions based on dodgy DNA evidence and controversial prosecutions.

In 2007, the now-closed British lab, the FSS, was forced to undertake a massive review of up to 2000 cases of violent crime, including rape and murder. There were concerns that the DNA tests relating to these criminal cases had failed to detect minute traces of DNA that could potentially have identified guilty parties.

The American DNA scientist will feature in Monday's episode five of Maddie, Nine.com.au's podcast investigation into Madeleine McCann's disappearance. Maddie quickly reached number one in the UK, Australia and New Zealand iTunes charts.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 24, 2019, 08:56:09 AM
Madeleine’s DNA could be present as could an abductor’s, Murat’s or the Man In The Moon’s.  Sensationalist shite to sell more papers and podcasts. IMO.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on March 24, 2019, 09:00:47 AM
I don't recall claims that DNA results were too complex to interpret being raised before the McCann case arose, or indeed since then, for that matter.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on March 24, 2019, 09:02:07 AM
https://www.9news.com.au/2019/03/23/20/27/madeleine-mccann-dna-car-evidence-could-now-be-solved-maddie-podcast

EXCLUSIVE: Maddie's DNA could be present in crucial samples as world expert rips up 'failed' UK forensic tests

One of the world's leading DNA scientists – whose lab helped identify victims of the 9/11 terror attack - has told Nine.com.au he believes he can answer a major forensic question that baffled investigators and could finally help solve what happened to missing girl Madeleine McCann, more than 11 years after she mysteriously vanished.

Speaking in tomorrow's fifth episode of Maddie, an American DNA expert reveals potentially case-changing insights into the DNA samples that were taken from the McCann's holiday apartment and rental car in 2007. Those samples were later judged to be inconclusive.

The chief scientist at a US-based, world renowned lab has reviewed the now out-dated testing methods used by the UK's Forensic Science Service (FSS) in 2007 to analyse the McCann samples. He has also examined a crucial final DNA report that was sent to the Portuguese police.

Portuguese police sent DNA samples to the FSS for testing after two specialist sniffer dogs trained to detect the scent of death and human blood alerted in the McCann's holiday apartment and a rental car hired three weeks after Maddie vanished. The FSS analysed the samples but struggled to untangle and decipher the potentially explosive evidence.

"[The FSS testing] failed in this case 10 years ago," the DNA scientist said.

"If a lab can produce informative data, even if it is complex and mixed, but they can't interpret it then you can have tremendous injustice - of guilty people not being convicted, or innocent people staying in prison. What is needed is an objective and accurate interpretation that can scientifically resolve the DNA."

The inconclusive DNA results from the FSS appeared to cast serious doubt over the earlier work of the cadaver dogs that had searched the potential crime scenes.



Kate and Gerry McCann 'less than convincing', former UK ambassador claims


The US forensic lab has forged a global reputation through solving previously indecipherable DNA samples. It has played a pivotal role in a number of high-profile US criminal trials involving wrongful convictions based on dodgy DNA evidence and controversial prosecutions.

In 2007, the now-closed British lab, the FSS, was forced to undertake a massive review of up to 2000 cases of violent crime, including rape and murder. There were concerns that the DNA tests relating to these criminal cases had failed to detect minute traces of DNA that could potentially have identified guilty parties.

The American DNA scientist will feature in Monday's episode five of Maddie, Nine.com.au's podcast investigation into Madeleine McCann's disappearance. Maddie quickly reached number one in the UK, Australia and New Zealand iTunes charts.

Where does Kate's, Gerry's and Madeleine's five day stay in Appartment 5a come into this?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on March 24, 2019, 09:02:30 AM
  Sensationalist shite to sell more papers and podcasts. IMO.

Since 3/05/2007 what hasn't been.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on March 24, 2019, 09:04:14 AM
I don't recall claims that DNA results were too complex to interpret being raised before the McCann case arose, or indeed since then, for that matter.

DNA has always been dodgy when it comes to solving Crimes, especially if there is a mixture.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 24, 2019, 09:15:29 AM
It will be Mark Perlin promoting his very expensive  True Allele technique that will be no use in this case... Saunokoko has already shown he doesn't understand the evidence with his claim that Eddie had never been wrong in 200 cases... If he can't get his, basic facts right then he us misleading people with his podcasts..
If Eddie hadn't been wrong in 200 cases I would accept the alerts had value... But the claim simply is not true

If you read Grimes claim it's, easy to misunderstand but being pedantic I read it precisely
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 24, 2019, 09:23:22 AM
Since 3/05/2007 what hasn't been.
Not all of it, but this one tells us nothing we didn’t already know, just dressed up as something new and significant, which it isn’t.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 24, 2019, 09:31:48 AM
Not all of it, but this one tells us nothing we didn’t already know, just dressed up as something new and significant, which it isn’t.

He also perpetuates myths... How can anyone ignore a dog that has never been wrong in 200 cases... Thus is why some people don't understand  the value of the alerts... Which are central to the case against the McCanns
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 24, 2019, 09:34:59 AM
https://www.9news.com.au/2019/03/23/20/27/madeleine-mccann-dna-car-evidence-could-now-be-solved-maddie-podcast

EXCLUSIVE: Maddie's DNA could be present in crucial samples as world expert rips up 'failed' UK forensic tests

One of the world's leading DNA scientists – whose lab helped identify victims of the 9/11 terror attack - has told Nine.com.au he believes he can answer a major forensic question that baffled investigators and could finally help solve what happened to missing girl Madeleine McCann, more than 11 years after she mysteriously vanished.

Speaking in tomorrow's fifth episode of Maddie, an American DNA expert reveals potentially case-changing insights into the DNA samples that were taken from the McCann's holiday apartment and rental car in 2007. Those samples were later judged to be inconclusive.

The chief scientist at a US-based, world renowned lab has reviewed the now out-dated testing methods used by the UK's Forensic Science Service (FSS) in 2007 to analyse the McCann samples. He has also examined a crucial final DNA report that was sent to the Portuguese police.

Portuguese police sent DNA samples to the FSS for testing after two specialist sniffer dogs trained to detect the scent of death and human blood alerted in the McCann's holiday apartment and a rental car hired three weeks after Maddie vanished. The FSS analysed the samples but struggled to untangle and decipher the potentially explosive evidence.

"[The FSS testing] failed in this case 10 years ago," the DNA scientist said.

"If a lab can produce informative data, even if it is complex and mixed, but they can't interpret it then you can have tremendous injustice - of guilty people not being convicted, or innocent people staying in prison. What is needed is an objective and accurate interpretation that can scientifically resolve the DNA."

The inconclusive DNA results from the FSS appeared to cast serious doubt over the earlier work of the cadaver dogs that had searched the potential crime scenes.



Kate and Gerry McCann 'less than convincing', former UK ambassador claims


The US forensic lab has forged a global reputation through solving previously indecipherable DNA samples. It has played a pivotal role in a number of high-profile US criminal trials involving wrongful convictions based on dodgy DNA evidence and controversial prosecutions.

In 2007, the now-closed British lab, the FSS, was forced to undertake a massive review of up to 2000 cases of violent crime, including rape and murder. There were concerns that the DNA tests relating to these criminal cases had failed to detect minute traces of DNA that could potentially have identified guilty parties.

The American DNA scientist will feature in Monday's episode five of Maddie, Nine.com.au's podcast investigation into Madeleine McCann's disappearance. Maddie quickly reached number one in the UK, Australia and New Zealand iTunes charts.

Whatever is said I don't think any samples were kept so the resuults can never be checked.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2282.jpg
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 24, 2019, 09:37:31 AM
Whatever is said I don't think any samples were kept so the resuults can never be checked.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2282.jpg
Someone needs to tell saunokoko.. The fact that both parents used the car makes any analysis on a mixed sample impossible
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on March 24, 2019, 09:47:08 AM
DNA has always been dodgy when it comes to solving Crimes, especially if there is a mixture.


It was a hire car,  god knows how many DNA's were mixed up in it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 24, 2019, 09:52:36 AM
It will be Mark Perlin promoting his very expensive  True Allele technique that will be no use in this case... Saunokoko has already shown he doesn't understand the evidence with his claim that Eddie had never been wrong in 200 cases... If he can't get his, basic facts right then he us misleading people with his podcasts..
If Eddie hadn't been wrong in 200 cases I would accept the alerts had value... But the claim simply is not true

If you read Grimes claim it's, easy to misunderstand but being pedantic I read it precisely

What did he mean then ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 24, 2019, 10:14:41 AM
What did he mean then ?

he means exactly what he said.... suspect you incorrectly think he said eddie has not been wrong in 200 cases...he didnt........you need to be precise in your reading...pedantic if you liike
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on March 24, 2019, 10:24:29 AM
Whatever is said I don't think any samples were kept so the resuults can never be checked.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2282.jpg

Strange set of affairs,when you consider dna evidence led to the real killer of Lesley Molseed being found because of a pair of the girls underwear being kept with his dna on them,30 yrs later.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 24, 2019, 10:25:20 AM
he means exactly what he said.... suspect you incorrectly think he said eddie has not been wrong in 200 cases...he didnt........you need to be precise in your reading...pedantic if you liike

Again what did he mean ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 24, 2019, 10:31:10 AM
Again what did he mean ?

He means exactly  what he said... Are you saying after almost 12 years you dint know what he said..  What do you think he said... I'm on my phone so difficult  to copy and paste
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 24, 2019, 10:40:37 AM
Strange set of affairs,when you consider dna evidence led to the real killer of Lesley Molseed being found because of a pair of the girls underwear being kept with his dna on them,30 yrs later.

The FSS follow home office guidelines... The PJ simply had to request the samples were kept
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 24, 2019, 10:42:49 AM
He means exactly  what he said... Are you saying after almost 12 years you dint know what he said..  What do you think he said... I'm on my phone so difficult  to copy and paste

I want to know what you thought he meant ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on March 24, 2019, 10:44:17 AM
The FSS follow home office guidelines... The PJ simply had to request the samples were kept


The guidlines are what? If its to destroy were the PJ made aware? why keep some and destroy others.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 24, 2019, 10:59:21 AM
Someone needs to tell saunokoko.. The fact that both parents used the car makes any analysis on a mixed sample impossible

Inconclusive means the FSS couldn't give an opinion about the presence of Madeleine's DNA. It wasn't ruled in or out. DNA testing isn't an exact science it involves interpretation.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20727733-500-fallible-dna-evidence-can-mean-prison-or-freedom/
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 24, 2019, 11:17:09 AM
Inconclusive means the FSS couldn't give an opinion about the presence of Madeleine's DNA. It wasn't ruled in or out. DNA testing isn't an exact science it involves interpretation.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20727733-500-fallible-dna-evidence-can-mean-prison-or-freedom/

DNA can be very precise and interpretation is extremely limited...the facts speak for themselves....it depends on the quality of the sample to how precise the analysis can be...this sample as I understand was from 3 to 5 poeple ....the fact that these could include maddies parents makes any meaningful conclusions basically impossible..the article you are quoting refers to mixed and partial samples
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 24, 2019, 11:18:06 AM
I want to know what you thought he meant ?

In six years of operational deployment in over 200
criminal case searches the dog has never alerted to meat based and
specifically pork foodstuffs designed for human consumption. Similarly the
dog has never alerted to 'road kill', that is any other dead animal.



I don't think anything... What he says is quite clear... What do you think he is saying
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on March 24, 2019, 11:45:42 AM
In six years of operational deployment in over 200
criminal case searches the dog has never alerted to meat based and
specifically pork foodstuffs designed for human consumption. Similarly the
dog has never alerted to 'road kill', that is any other dead animal.



I don't think anything... What he says is quite clear... What do you think he is saying

He's saying the dog never alerted to any other than which he was trained for in over 200 operational deployment's.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 24, 2019, 12:32:06 PM
Whatever is said I don't think any samples were kept so the resuults can never be checked.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2282.jpg

A Met Police team led by DCI Andy Redwood announced their wish to look again at forensic material collected in the early days of the Madeleine McCann investigation during a visit to the university town of Coimbra earlier this month.

They met with senior officials of Portugal’s Institute of Legal Medicine and Forensic Sciences in Coimbra, two hours drive north of Lisbon, where most of the material, also said to include 25 blood and saliva samples, is held.

Institute president Francisco Brizida, said afterwards: “I have the certainty they went away very happy.”

“The tonic of the meeting was about the possibility of the tests on samples collected in 2007 being re-done.

“The British police wanted clarification on the examinations the institute had carried out during the early stages of the inquiry in the areas of genetics and biology.

“We talked about non-identified material that was collected in Madeleine’s apartment.

“I can’t say for sure new DNA tests that didn’t yield a conclusive result in 2007 could now yield an objective result.

“But technology nowadays allows us to go further than years ago in areas like genetic markers.

“Several possibilities are open. One could be that British police do the tests in Britain with British technology and another that the institute does them.

“But that’s an area in which the institute does not have the last word. There’s a situation of judicial cooperation and a new international letter of request would be necessary.”

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/hair-strands-during-original-madeleine-mccann-investigation-never-dna-matched-9825210.html


Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 24, 2019, 12:47:33 PM
He's saying the dog never alerted to any other than which he was trained for in over 200 operational deployment's.
That's what you are saying... Once you feel it's, acceptable to change his words you change the meaning.. The next person changes them a little more... The true meaning is lost
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 24, 2019, 12:50:26 PM
Inconclusive means the FSS couldn't give an opinion about the presence of Madeleine's DNA. It wasn't ruled in or out. DNA testing isn't an exact science it involves interpretation.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20727733-500-fallible-dna-evidence-can-mean-prison-or-freedom/

It couldn't be ruled out or in... Not due to interpretation... But due to the results of the analysis... Are you seriously suggesting another scientist could intepret that result diferrently... You are wrong..
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 24, 2019, 02:09:01 PM
A Met Police team led by DCI Andy Redwood announced their wish to look again at forensic material collected in the early days of the Madeleine McCann investigation during a visit to the university town of Coimbra earlier this month.

They met with senior officials of Portugal’s Institute of Legal Medicine and Forensic Sciences in Coimbra, two hours drive north of Lisbon, where most of the material, also said to include 25 blood and saliva samples, is held.

Institute president Francisco Brizida, said afterwards: “I have the certainty they went away very happy.”

“The tonic of the meeting was about the possibility of the tests on samples collected in 2007 being re-done.

“The British police wanted clarification on the examinations the institute had carried out during the early stages of the inquiry in the areas of genetics and biology.

“We talked about non-identified material that was collected in Madeleine’s apartment.

“I can’t say for sure new DNA tests that didn’t yield a conclusive result in 2007 could now yield an objective result.

“But technology nowadays allows us to go further than years ago in areas like genetic markers.

“Several possibilities are open. One could be that British police do the tests in Britain with British technology and another that the institute does them.

“But that’s an area in which the institute does not have the last word. There’s a situation of judicial cooperation and a new international letter of request would be necessary.”

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/hair-strands-during-original-madeleine-mccann-investigation-never-dna-matched-9825210.html

So they were said to want to check the work of the Portuguese scientists but not that of the British ones. More insults imo.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on March 24, 2019, 02:21:38 PM
So they were said to want to check the work of the Portuguese scientists but not that of the British ones. More insults imo.

I suppose they had easier access to the relevant UK forensic records so didn't really need to mention it to anyone.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 24, 2019, 02:33:01 PM
So they were said to want to check the work of the Portuguese scientists but not that of the British ones. More insults imo.

So it's okfor amaral to say the FSS manipulated the results. .when that is not true and based on his misunderstanding
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on March 24, 2019, 02:36:36 PM
So they were said to want to check the work of the Portuguese scientists but not that of the British ones. More insults imo.
When Rebelo took over the investigation there was obvious personal contact and collaboration between Portuguese scientists and their colleagues at the FSS in Birmingham.

They spent three days discussing nothing but the forensic results.

The outcome of which relayed back to Portugal by their experts in the field must have convinced the public prosecutor to drop proceedings against the three arguidos.
That says it all to me and I think it makes Saunokonoko's podcast crusade really quite extraordinary.


Snip
The four-strong team from Portugal - thought to include a senior detective, two police forensic experts and Francisco Corte Real, the vice president of the National Pathology Institute - touched down at East Midlands airport at midday.

_____________________________________________________________________-

"There has been excellent dialogue between the British and the Portuguese authorities but they found it was time to have a face-to-face meeting.

_____________________________________________________________________

  ... public prosecutor Jose Magalhaes e Menezes has refused to sanction further moves against the couple.

It has been reported that he is waiting for the full forensic results before deciding whether to pursue a case against them.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1570807/Madeleine-McCann-Portuguese-police-fly-to-UK.html
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 24, 2019, 03:51:38 PM
I'm looking forward to listening to a real explanation of the genetic results from an expert in that field. I wonder if they will agree with Netflix genetic experts Robin Swan & Jim Gamble.

It may just be me, but I get the feeling some people are suffering from squeaky bum time. 
Squeak squeak.    @)(++(*

as I understand it already...I dont see there being any revelations from True allele and Mark Perlin.....im fairly sure this is who saunokokos expert will be...the fact that the dna was a mix...the fact that both parents used the car....make any precise analysis impossible...it really isnt rocket sciennce....Robyn Swann explained it quite well
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 24, 2019, 04:09:29 PM
 *&^^&
You can tell me all that and the podcast hasn't aired yet. I don't suppose you could go a little further and tell me what's going to win the 2.15 at Wincanton, that's tomorrow as well.  @)(++(*

Won't you be shocked when I'm proved right
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 24, 2019, 04:16:30 PM
So they were said to want to check the work of the Portuguese scientists but not that of the British ones. More insults imo.

No I think the samples were returned to Portugal not kept in UK.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: John on March 24, 2019, 07:41:18 PM
Reference my previous advice re constructive comments guys.  I have no problem with introducing a bit of banter into the discussions but please don't make remarks personal as that could constitute a rule breach. Cheers!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 24, 2019, 08:30:01 PM
I'm looking forward to listening to a real explanation of the genetic results from an expert in that field. I wonder if they will agree with Netflix genetic experts Robin Swan & Jim Gamble.

It may just be me, but I get the feeling some people are suffering from squeaky bum time. 
Squeak squeak.    @)(++(*

not sure if you are aware but talking of experts...sir Alec Jeffreys stated that he would testify if necessary on behalf of the McCanns...if you arent sure who he is try google...hes quite an expert
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 24, 2019, 08:59:12 PM
not sure if you are aware but talking of experts...sir Alec Jeffreys stated that he would testify if necessary on behalf of the McCanns...if you arent sure who he is try google...hes quite an expert

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6992372.stm

The article is from September 2007 when Sir Alec, despite his expertise, would not have known what evidence the PJ had against the parents.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 24, 2019, 09:09:21 PM
Davel please listen carefully. If the McCanns are innocent, no one would like to see that proven more than me. I just don't see that I'm afraid imo, at least not with how things stand at the moment. And nor am I impressed with how they have handled their defense. Too much collateral damage imo.

Please listen carefully... For me the evidence overwhelmingly points to innocence... But if that changes it won't bother me in the slightest.. But I cannot realistically see it changing
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 24, 2019, 09:13:22 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6992372.stm

The article is from September 2007 when Sir Alec, despite his expertise, would not have known what evidence the PJ had against the parents.

Read the article... It talks, about the police claiming a 100 %match in the hire car
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 24, 2019, 09:31:33 PM
Aw... something else we agree on. I trust you also agree the investigation should continue indefinitely?
It's the least the culprits deserve imo.  8(0(*

Thr investigation  can only continue if there is something  to investigate
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 24, 2019, 10:08:12 PM
You better tell the McCanns that, they are planning to investigate when this investigation ends apparently. What will they be left to investigate if SY have done all the investigating for them one wonders? And God help whoever the suspects are in that scenario. They better make sure their cars are fully insured for third party, fire and theft.
Why would people continue spending money on investigating a crime you believe they committed themselves, especially if the latest investigation fails to find any evidence against them?  Does that make any sense to you?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 24, 2019, 10:34:55 PM
According to the post I was replying to, the investigation will only end when there is nothing to investigate. What's the sense in investigating something there is nothing to investigate. That's what the McCanns are proposing to do according to Davel. Would that make sense to you?
I'm on record as supporting an indefinite investigation. 8500 sightings, we have plenty to investigate before we hand it over to the doctors.
Because we can't prove who the culprits are, doesn't mean we do not have at our disposal means of making them suffer.  Are you opposed to that approach? 8(0(*
Re: your last para - I have no idea what you are talking about, soz la, Cheeky.  Re: the parents carrying on the search after there is nothing left to investigate only makes sense if you consider the parents continue to have hope of finding their child and never giving up.  Otherwise it does make no sense as you rightly point out. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 24, 2019, 10:40:07 PM
Re: your last para - I have no idea what you are talking about, soz la, Cheeky.  Re: the parents carrying on the search after there is nothing left to investigate only makes sense if you consider the parents continue to have hope of finding their child and never giving up.  Otherwise it does make no sense as you rightly point out.

I believe Kate has said they will never stop looking for Madeleine, (this was mentioned somewhere in the early part of the Netflix doc, but I can't be arsed to look for it).
Never stopping looking makes no sense, since if they found her, then they wouldn't have to look anymore.
They'll never stop looking, because they know she can't be found. In this context that statement makes sense.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 24, 2019, 10:40:47 PM
Re: your last para - I have no idea what you are talking about, soz la, Cheeky.  Re: the parents carrying on the search after there is nothing left to investigate only makes sense if you consider the parents continue to have hope of finding their child and never giving up.  Otherwise it does make no sense as you rightly point out.

Nice bit of Scouse, Vertigo la.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 24, 2019, 11:05:56 PM
Read the article... It talks, about the police claiming a 100 %match in the hire car

And ? Sir Alec Jeffrey only had that information from newspaper reports.

To say he’d testify for the parent’s in court, the article doesn’t quote him directly as saying that, when his only knowledge of the case against them is newspaper reports would make anyone question his professionalism.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 24, 2019, 11:07:08 PM
I can't do anything about your lack of understanding.
On my other paragraphs, it's welcome to see rather than call me a troll, we can agree on something.
Even if you have no idea what I'm talking about in my last para, we have made progress, you spoke to me 8(0(*.
I’m glad you’re pleased.  Don’t troll me and we’re bound to get along famously  8**8:/:
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 24, 2019, 11:07:58 PM
I believe Kate has said they will never stop looking for Madeleine, (this was mentioned somewhere in the early part of the Netflix doc, but I can't be arsed to look for it).
Never stopping looking makes no sense, since if they found her, then they wouldn't have to look anymore.
They'll never stop looking, because they know she can't be found. In this context that statement makes sense.
Facetious faeces. IMO.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 24, 2019, 11:11:05 PM
Facetious faeces. IMO.

You know I'm right.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 24, 2019, 11:12:13 PM
You know I'm right.
I know you know I’m right.Your turn.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 24, 2019, 11:27:41 PM
I'm only pleased if we continue the progress. Davel, Eleanor, John, G Unit, Breitta and all the others haven't called me a troll. It's only you. I'm happy to leave it there and get along famously with you.
Back to you  8(0(*
Cool beans.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: John on March 25, 2019, 12:32:24 AM
I believe Kate has said they will never stop looking for Madeleine, (this was mentioned somewhere in the early part of the Netflix doc, but I can't be arsed to look for it).
Never stopping looking makes no sense, since if they found her, then they wouldn't have to look anymore.
They'll never stop looking, because they know she can't be found. In this context that statement makes sense.

Talk is cheap.  Her idea of what constitutes looking is a bit odd for sure.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 25, 2019, 09:03:27 AM
https://omny.fm/shows/maddie/the-dna?fbclid=IwAR2bIkvzBgJvYFYdVY1waT--1yAVK8OPV4nNEVkciKcwVYir8Q6HWf3AW8Y   this is the 5th podcast in the series.

Here is a better link to the full playlist as it stands.  https://omny.fm/shows/maddie/playlists/podcast
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on March 25, 2019, 09:23:40 AM
I believe Kate has said they will never stop looking for Madeleine, (this was mentioned somewhere in the early part of the Netflix doc, but I can't be arsed to look for it).
Never stopping looking makes no sense, since if they found her, then they wouldn't have to look anymore.
They'll never stop looking, because they know she can't be found. In this context that statement makes sense.

Obviously,   never stop looking until Madeleine is found,   can't believe you had to be told that   IMO
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 25, 2019, 10:15:03 AM
Therefore, we CAN answer the question: is the match from the hire care genuine or is it a chance match according to Dr Mark Perlin. According to him you have been proved wrong. I'm not shocked at all.
If Dr Perlin's testimony proves anything imo, it proves when it comes to understanding and explaining genetic science to a wider global audience, Robin Swan and Jim Gamble are not the people to do it.

No we can't... He can give a probability..we don't know what that probability is...... He needs to be asked a lot more questions
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 25, 2019, 11:15:44 AM
A very interesting podcast about DNA. It seems that there's a possibility that questions which the FSS were unable to answer can now be answered, due to advances in the field. There are only two laboratory's in the world with this technology; one in the US and one in Australia. The information they would need was taken out of archive in 2012. If it has been examined it would be by the one in Australia, as it wasn't the US one. Assuming that Op Grange have the data, an offer has been made to them to analyse it free of charge by the US lab. Op Grange have not responded.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 25, 2019, 11:31:45 AM
No we can't... He can give a probability..we don't know what that probability is...... He needs to be asked a lot more questions

Accotding to him his method allowed him to separate a mixed sample containing DNA from five people. He was also able to separate the DNA of three brothers in that sample. His evidence obtained the release of two men who had been convicted of the crime because he demonstrated that neither of them contributed to the sample.

If he was allowed to analyse the sample from the boot of the McCann's car he might be able to eliminate Madeleine from it. In my opinion that's worth a try. If the McCanns are innocent surely they would want that to be done?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 25, 2019, 12:08:47 PM
Accotding to him his method allowed him to separate a mixed sample containing DNA from five people. He was also able to separate the DNA of three brothers in that sample. His evidence obtained the release of two men who had been convicted of the crime because he demonstrated that neither of them contributed to the sample.

If he was allowed to analyse the sample from the boot of the McCann's car he might be able to eliminate Madeleine from it. In my opinion that's worth a try. If the McCanns are innocent surely they would want that to be done?

Of course it's worth a try... I've suggested via Twitter to Mark S that he ssks Mark Perlin himself to contact either the Portuguese or Grange... If the off er is genuine
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 25, 2019, 12:11:23 PM
Accotding to him his method allowed him to separate a mixed sample containing DNA from five people. He was also able to separate the DNA of three brothers in that sample. His evidence obtained the release of two men who had been convicted of the crime because he demonstrated that neither of them contributed to the sample.

If he was allowed to analyse the sample from the boot of the McCann's car he might be able to eliminate Madeleine from it. In my opinion that's worth a try. If the McCanns are innocent surely they would want that to be done?

Did he seperate the three brothers or exclude the three brothers... Thats a massive difference... Do you have s link


I've just checked a link.... He did not seperate the DNA of the three brothers but concluded that three of the contributers were brothers
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 25, 2019, 12:50:14 PM
Did he seperate the three brothers or exclude the three brothers... Thats a massive difference... Do you have s link

He was able to separate family members. That would be useful in terms of the car boot sample as theoretically he coould answer a question iften raised i.e. did the sample contain the DNA of Madeleine's fanily members?

The information is from the latest podcast; DNA.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 25, 2019, 02:00:18 PM
If you ask me, there are those who would rather Mr Lowe's report remained opinion rather than be determined fact imo. Not that they'll admit it.
Dr Perlin; "I'd explain to SY how trueallele has been used successfully in the UK and elsewhere around the world to solve problems just like this one and if they want to know the answer, it won't cost them anything, just send us the data and we'll give them the answer.

Mark Perlin has clearly read Mr Lowes report, he's a genetic scientist with a proven reputation. He's in a better position to know what he can answer and what he can't before any of the other genetic experts on here imo. Let's hope the data has been retained and he is given the opportunity to give us an answer.

You are assuming the answer is yes or no.......

I suggest Perlin contacts Grange himself and offers his, services...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 25, 2019, 02:09:28 PM
I'm assuming nothing, it can only be yes or no, we already have a ,"we CANNOT answer the question. You forgot about that, didn't you.

You are assuming the answer is yes or no... Then we have the next question... What if a couple of cells of maddies DNA were found... Would it be if any significance... I don't see thst it would
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on March 25, 2019, 02:10:32 PM
If you ask me, there are those who would rather Mr Lowe's report remained opinion rather than be determined fact imo. Not that they'll admit it.
Dr Perlin; "I'd explain to SY how trueallele has been used successfully in the UK and elsewhere around the world to solve problems just like this one and if they want to know the answer, it won't cost them anything, just send us the data and we'll give them the answer.

Mark Perlin has clearly read Mr Lowes report, he's a genetic scientist with a proven reputation. He's in a better position to know what he can answer and what he can't before any of the other genetic experts on here imo. Let's hope the data has been retained and he is given the opportunity to give us an answer.

Not sure what a definitive answer would prove, but it could certainly raise some interesting questions and answers
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 25, 2019, 02:19:53 PM
I think the whole idea, that Maddies corpse was in the hire, car is totally absurd
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 25, 2019, 02:47:19 PM
It would prove if a dog trained to detected human blood found the missing child's DNA in the boot of the parent's hire car or not. It would also be useful in the parent's defence one would imagine if it was proved to be the later. It's an answer it would seem to me, is in the parents interest finally gets answered.

Gerrys blood was found in the car....the parents, already know the answer
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 25, 2019, 02:59:38 PM
What's that got to do with the DNA that matched Madeleine that was retrieved from the boot?
It didn't match Gerry the inconclusive DNA in the boot, it matched the missing child's.
The parents might know the answer but I don't know when I can believe the parents, I like proof.
Those jemmied shutters left a rather nasty taste in my mouth. I don't swallow anything they tell me without proof.
Your point is?

It wasn't a match to Madeleine and we dint know if Gerry contributed to it... I don't swallow, anything with out evidence..
Neither Gerry nor Kate used the words Gemmied... There is certainly  no proof they did... But you've swallowed it
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on March 25, 2019, 03:17:25 PM
Are we speaking about the boot of the car?  Eddie didn't alert there. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 25, 2019, 03:21:46 PM
The report says it was an inconclusive match to Madeleine. What evidence did you swallow to reach the conclusion that it wasn't? Bit of a contradiction there sunshine. You don't swallow anything without, ahem, evidence.
I'll bear that in mind the next time my curtains go whoooosh.

If it's inconclusive  it's not a match.. Could you cite the report stating it's an inconclusive match..it's a contradiction
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 25, 2019, 03:31:50 PM
Sorry you're quite correct, it was me that used the term inconclusive for the DNA match.. but here's your's cite to swallow.  "What we need to consider, as scientists, is whether THE MATCH is genuine and legitimate; because Madeline has deposited DNA as a result of being in the car or whether Madeline merely appears TO MATCH the result by chance.

It's not a match, then why did they scientists say that it was? I'm getting the sense your suffering from indigestion.

Something that appears to match by chance is not a match
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 25, 2019, 04:14:55 PM
But if you don't swallow anything without evidence, I'm at a loss to understand how do you know the match wasn't a genuine match? Well? You don't swallow anything without evidence? It seems rather mean for you not to be willing to share it with us. Go on, just tell us how you know it's not a genuine match. Please? Pretty please?

I don't know it's not a genuine match...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 25, 2019, 05:45:36 PM
But if you don't swallow anything without evidence, I'm at a loss to understand how do you know the match wasn't a genuine match? Well? You don't swallow anything without evidence? It seems rather mean for you not to be willing to share it with us. Go on, just tell us how you know it's not a genuine match. Please? Pretty please?
Inconclusive means you can't determine if it was a match or not.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 25, 2019, 06:47:24 PM
An article about Trueallele, a company whose methods are not completely without controversy https://www.wired.com/story/trueallele-software-transforming-how-courts-treat-dna-evidence/
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 25, 2019, 06:50:09 PM
Mark Saunokonoko makes several errors in the podcast Eddie and Keela, but it would be an extreme amount of work to isolate the comments and refute them.  OK he might be 90% correct in what he has presented which is pretty good score over all.
He presents a subtle opinion generally supportive of the PJ.  I myself don't agree with that as I have already expressed despair at Amaral's attempt to interview all the OC MW staff even when their likelihood of them being involved was zero i.e. the Millennium staff.  But there were no interviews of the staff working in businesses where the McCanns actually went e.g. the local supermarket.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 25, 2019, 07:15:57 PM
Mark Saunokonoko makes several errors in the podcast Eddie and Keela, but it would be an extreme amount of work to isolate the comments and refute them.  OK he might be 90% correct in what he has presented which is pretty good score over all.
He presents a subtle opinion generally supportive of the PJ.  I myself don't agree with that as I have already expressed despair at Amaral's attempt to interview all the OC MW staff even when their likelihood of them being involved was zero i.e. the Millennium staff.  But there were no interviews of the staff working in businesses where the McCanns actually went e.g. the local supermarket.

He must be one of the best journalists. Did you catch the bit where Martin Brunt said the McCanns had been on holiday in Luz for almost two weeks when Madeleine disappeared lol?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 25, 2019, 07:24:12 PM
He must be one of the best journalists. Did you catch the bit where Martin Brunt said the McCanns had been on holiday in Luz for almost two weeks when Madeleine disappeared lol?

Danny Collins made the same mistake in his book.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 25, 2019, 07:47:01 PM
He must be one of the best journalists. Did you catch the bit where Martin Brunt said the McCanns had been on holiday in Luz for almost two weeks when Madeleine disappeared lol?
There are 6 podcasts available now and you ask me to note one particular portion.  To be honest I did not notice that actual statement.  To work out where to locate any "error" would be a mission.
It would come back to opinion.  We see the McCann and Payne families travelling to Portugal,  So IMO they were there  "in Luz for almost two weeks when Madeleine disappeared".  It might have just been an issue of recall or a slip of the tongue.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 25, 2019, 07:47:38 PM
Thanks for the definition of inconclusive but you're addressing your reply to the wrong person.
I was replying to Davel's; "It wasn't a match to Madeleine and we dint know if Gerry contributed to it"
It's fine, nothing to worry about, we eventually managed to get him to admit he was doesn't know if it's a genuine match or not. To make a claim that the sample 'wasn't a match to Madeleine' sounds pretty conclusive to me, don't you think?
A match to Madeleine wasn't found... Whether there is one is another question... Whether it has any importance is another question... Based on the evidence I think it has no importance.
At the moment... There is no match to Madeleine
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 25, 2019, 07:51:17 PM
He must be one of the best journalists. Did you catch the bit where Martin Brunt said the McCanns had been on holiday in Luz for almost two weeks when Madeleine disappeared lol?

He's made several gross errors... Saying the dogs have never been wrong in 200 cases is one... Interviewing Levy and taking what he says as the truth is another..

He's a poor journalist IMO because he is not presenting a balanced view
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 25, 2019, 08:00:40 PM
There are 6 podcasts available now and you ask me to note one particular portion.  To be honest I did not notice that actual statement.  To work out where to locate any "error" would be a mission.
It would come back to opinion.  We see the McCann and Payne families travelling to Portugal,  So IMO they were there  "in Luz for almost two weeks when Madeleine disappeared".  It might have just been an issue of recall or a slip of the tongue.

As you have just edited one of my posts I should point out your error... There are 5 podcasts available
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 25, 2019, 08:19:03 PM
As you have just edited one of my posts I should point out your error... There are 5 podcasts available
Thanks but there are 6 listed on the playlist https://omny.fm/shows/maddie/the-dna?in_playlist=maddie!podcast

There are more planned so the numbers will change.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 25, 2019, 08:23:14 PM
Thanks but there are 6 listed on the playlist https://omny.fm/shows/maddie/the-dna?in_playlist=maddie!podcast

There are more planned so the numbers will change.

There are only 5 available.... Not six.. The latest one is episode 5
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 25, 2019, 09:02:53 PM
He's made several gross errors... Saying the dogs have never been wrong in 200 cases is one... Interviewing Levy and taking what he says as the truth is another..

He's a poor journalist IMO because he is not presenting a balanced view

Unlike most of them he isn't peddling untruths.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 25, 2019, 09:14:12 PM
Unlike most of them he isn't peddling untruths.

Yes he is..
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 25, 2019, 09:27:24 PM
Unlike most of them he isn't peddling untruths.

Untruths are fine it seems,  as long as it’s dishonesty in favour of the parents.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 25, 2019, 09:32:44 PM
Unlike most of them he isn't peddling untruths.
What is he peddling and why?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 26, 2019, 08:02:28 AM
Colin Duffy was convicted on Mark perlins evidence then cleared on appeal..

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-15759541

so hes not as infallible as some would like to think
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on March 26, 2019, 08:07:27 AM
Colin Duffy was convicted on Mark perlins evidence then cleared on appeal..

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-15759541

so hes not as infallible as some would like to think

Trillions now, is it?  Goodness me.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 26, 2019, 08:20:23 AM
Colin Duffy was convicted on Mark perlins evidence then cleared on appeal..

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-15759541

so hes not as infallible as some would like to think

I find it fascinating that you are seeking to discredit a man who could show that Madeleine's DNA wasn't present in that car.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 26, 2019, 08:22:51 AM
I find it fascinating that you are seeking to discredit a man who could show that Madeleine's DNA wasn't present in that car.

I find it very telling that providing a link that puts things into perspective is seen by you as trying to discredit him

Afaiac it's not particularly  important if madeleines DNA was found in the car
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 26, 2019, 08:23:32 AM
I find it fascinating that you are seeking to discredit a man who could show that Madeleine's DNA wasn't present in that car.
What he is selling has not been peer reviewed, as you accept nothing, believe no one and check everything does that not concern you?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 26, 2019, 09:18:43 AM
I find it interesting the effort being put into discrediting Perlin’s expertise while reviews where being asked for in 2,000 criminal cases due to blunders by the FSS, the very service used to investigate the forensic material in this case.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1543448/2000-crime-files-reopened-after-DNA-blunders.htmlS

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on March 26, 2019, 09:22:37 AM
I find it interesting the effort being put into discrediting Perlin’s expertise while reviews where being asked for in 2,000 criminal cases due to blunders by the FSS, the very service used to investigate the forensic material in this case.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1543448/2000-crime-files-reopened-after-DNA-blunders.htmlS

I find Trillions hard to accept.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 26, 2019, 09:39:57 AM
I find it very telling that providing a link that puts things into perspective is seen by you as trying to discredit him

Afaiac it's not particularly  important if madeleines DNA was found in the car

The FSS weren't exactly marvelous either. Their work on other cases was being questioned and the police started using other providers.

According to Keela blood was present in the car. Madeleine's DNA falling off her shoes or clothes? Fine. Her blood is a different matter.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on March 26, 2019, 09:41:30 AM
The FSS weren't exactly marvelous either. Their work on other cases was being questioned and the police started using other providers.

According to Keela blood was present in the car. Madeleine's DNA falling off her shoes or clothes? Fine. Her blood is a different matter.

Dead bodies don't bleed.  Especially not after three weeks.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 26, 2019, 09:45:54 AM
The FSS weren't exactly marvelous either. Their work on other cases was being questioned and the police started using other providers.

According to Keela blood was present in the car. Madeleine's DNA falling off her shoes or clothes? Fine. Her blood is a different matter.

First... It seems it's OK to try and discredit the FSS as mark s and you are doing. The FSS had to review over a thousand cases after the Omagh bomb trial where it was ruled thst a small quantity of DNA could be present through transference... So why in 2011 did Perlin not understand  this... And that's why the conviction was overturned..

According to Griime the alerts have no evidential value without corroborating evidence... There was no blood found... We know Gerrys blood was in the car... How do you make the giant leap to show maddies blood was in the car... Total speculation
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 26, 2019, 09:46:50 AM
Dead bodies don't bleed.  Especially not after three weeks.

Absolutely... Blood clots quite quickly...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 26, 2019, 09:49:09 AM
So when Perlin testified was he not aware of transference... Doesn't make him much of an expert
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 26, 2019, 09:51:44 AM
I find Trillions hard to accept.

So did Perlin... He revised his figures... So he, admits the first ones were wrong
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 26, 2019, 09:53:04 AM
Dead bodies don't bleed.  Especially not after three weeks.

I find it very difficult to understand how up to five people's blood became intermingled. Was the sample part blood part  other substances?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 26, 2019, 10:08:38 AM
I find it very difficult to understand how up to five people's blood became intermingled. Was the sample part blood part  other substances?

It wouldnt have to be 5 people's blood... Could be just gerrys... Mixes, with 4 others dna
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 26, 2019, 10:09:08 AM
I didn't know that, interesting.. but where has all the blood in their bodies gone?

It clots... Turns solid
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 26, 2019, 11:11:13 AM
I find it very difficult to understand how up to five people's blood became intermingled. Was the sample part blood part  other substances?
One person's blood but DNA from up to 5 different people from the area tested.  DNA is collected from an area, but Keela alerts to an invisible spot within that area.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 26, 2019, 02:44:13 PM
I expect his expertise to given much more balanced consideration in certain quarters if he is ever given the chance to test the samples and they prove not to be Madeleine's... Excluding yourself of course.
Like the FSS... Saunokoko does his best to discredit them and that's lapped up in certain quarters...as for Perlin.. He's highly qualified... Extremely well educated and intelligent and hence would see my criticism of him as tongue in cheek.. Us intelligent scientists like a bit of friendly banter...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on March 26, 2019, 03:44:19 PM
Like the FSS... Saunokoko does his best to discredit them and that's lapped up in certain quarters...as for Perlin.. He's highly qualified... Extremely well educated and intelligent and hence would see my criticism of him as tongue in cheek.. Us intelligent scientists like a bit of friendly banter...

Good one.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on March 26, 2019, 04:00:38 PM
I expect his expertise to given much more balanced consideration in certain quarters if he is ever given the chance to test the samples and they prove not to be Madeleine's... Excluding yourself of course.

Danie Krugel would not permit review of his technique either ... I believe it cost him credibility.  8**8:/:
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on March 26, 2019, 04:06:18 PM
I find it very difficult to understand how up to five people's blood became intermingled. Was the sample part blood part  other substances?

I think that post is more than a tad disingenuous of you for which I will apologise when you provide a cite showing ... what blood?  what five people?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on March 26, 2019, 04:10:42 PM
One person's blood but DNA from up to 5 different people from the area tested.  DNA is collected from an area, but Keela alerts to an invisible spot within that area.

I find it extraordinary that our resident 'expert' on the files is unaware of that.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on March 26, 2019, 04:18:08 PM
It's not a good one imo, what's good about a comment that's wrong? If you listen to the podcast, nowhere in the podcast does anyone attempt to discredit the FSS. They refer in the podcast to the outdated methods they were using in 2007 but that in no way imo is an attempt to discredit anyone, it's a statement of fact. 12 years is a very long time in modern science, technology evolves. 
If I'm wrong I'll enjoy reading the cite you provide that demonstrates there was any attempt to discredit anyone from the FSS?
The man is claiming he has a modern method, accepted in courts of law that could prove if the DNA in the car came from the child or not. Does the thought of not appeal to you? Reading through this thread, I'm beginning to wonder.

I was referring to Davel's comment on Banter.

However, I do find Trillions had to believe.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on March 26, 2019, 04:22:04 PM
Therefore, we CAN answer the question: is the match from the hire car genuine or is it a chance match according to Dr Mark Perlin. According to him you have been proved wrong. I'm not shocked at all.
If Dr Perlin's testimony proves anything imo, it proves when it comes to understanding and explaining genetic science to a wider global audience, Robin Swan and Jim Gamble are not the people to do it.
You obviously missed the link provided by VS which explains in great detail exactly what is wrong with the suppositions in your post ... http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10605.msg517357#msg517357

Long ... but well worth a read and further study ...
https://www.wired.com/story/trueallele-software-transforming-how-courts-treat-dna-evidence/
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 26, 2019, 04:28:10 PM
Like the FSS... Saunokoko does his best to discredit them and that's lapped up in certain quarters...as for Perlin.. He's highly qualified... Extremely well educated and intelligent and hence would see my criticism of him as tongue in cheek.. Us intelligent scientists like a bit of friendly banter...

No need to discredit the FSS, they managed that all by themselves and that is why they were disbanded.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on March 26, 2019, 04:43:40 PM
Sorry for the misunderstanding.
I agree it's a large number but dna technology is all about analysing very large numbers. If I were innocent and knew my child had never been in the boot of the car, I'd be willing to give it a go. Absolutely.

The Population of The World today is 7.5 Billion.  Need I say more?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 26, 2019, 04:52:09 PM
It's not a good one imo, what's good about a comment that's wrong? If you listen to the podcast, nowhere in the podcast does anyone attempt to discredit the FSS. They refer in the podcast to the outdated methods they were using in 2007 but that in no way imo is an attempt to discredit anyone, it's a statement of fact. 12 years is a very long time in modern science, technology evolves. 
If I'm wrong I'll enjoy reading the cite you provide that demonstrates there was any attempt to discredit anyone from the FSS?
The man is claiming he has a modern method, accepted in courts of law that could prove if the DNA in the car came from the child or not. Does the thought of not appeal to you? Reading through this thread, I'm beginning to wonder.

I think you should listen again.....there is an attempt o discredit the FSS...and its gone on here too...I would love to see the results of his tests but...first..it may already have been done with the NZ lab and secondly...neither Grange nor the PJ think its necessary....i have suggested to Mark S that he gets Perlin himself to approach Grange...so im certainly up for it
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 26, 2019, 04:58:03 PM
Sorry for the misunderstanding.
I agree it's a large number but dna technology is all about analysing very large numbers. If I were innocent and knew my child had never been in the boot of the car, I'd be willing to give it a go. Absolutely.

its not up to the mccanns...but of course whatever result was found would NOT answer the question...was maddies corpse transported in the car... The only people who know if maddies body was ever in the boot is the MCcanns....they dont need any test to tell them the answer
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 26, 2019, 05:01:54 PM
Sorry for the misunderstanding.
I agree it's a large number but dna technology is all about analysing very large numbers. If I were innocent and knew my child had never been in the boot of the car, I'd be willing to give it a go. Absolutely.

simple question...if the test was negative...what would it prove
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 26, 2019, 05:43:28 PM
It would answer it for me.  8(0(*
It would not prove maddies body was never in the car... I thought you demanded proof
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 26, 2019, 06:21:50 PM
The Population of The World today is 7.5 Billion.  Need I say more?
Yes but even if the worlds population went into the trillions your DNA will still be unique to you. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 26, 2019, 06:24:09 PM
its not up to the mccanns...but of course whatever result was found would NOT answer the question...was maddies corpse transported in the car... The only people who know if maddies body was ever in the boot is the MCcanns....they dont need any test to tell them the answer
According to Gerry other people used that car.  So you can't say Gerry was the only person who could have put a cadaver in the hire car.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on March 26, 2019, 06:30:51 PM
According to Gerry other people used that car.  So you can't say Gerry was the only person who could have put a cadaver in the hire car.
It was a hire car ... do you think one of the other people who had hired it prior to the McCanns might have carried a body in the boot?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on March 26, 2019, 06:38:36 PM
Yes but even if the worlds population went into the trillions your DNA will still be unique to you.

But it doesn't.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 26, 2019, 06:50:33 PM
It was a hire car ... do you think one of the other people who had hired it prior to the McCanns might have carried a body in the boot?
What did Gerry actually say?  I have a feeling he said "up to 30 people (of his acquaintances) had possibly used the hire car" while he had it under contract. (They had the car for a long time late May right through to the 6th August, so about two and a half months for those 30 people to use the car.)

"do you think one of the other people who had hired it prior to the McCanns might have carried a body in the boot?"  This is another possibility.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on March 26, 2019, 06:58:03 PM
Yes but even if the worlds population went into the trillions your DNA will still be unique to you.

So why don't they just say that there is only one person in The World with this DNA, and this is that person?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on March 26, 2019, 06:59:49 PM
Are we all agreed that there was probably a body in the boot then?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on March 26, 2019, 07:01:05 PM
Are we all agreed that there was probably a body in the boot then?

Where did you get that idea?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 26, 2019, 07:02:03 PM
So why don't they just say that there is only one person in The World with this DNA, and this is that person?
There is always the possibility of the identical twin running around that no one told you about.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 26, 2019, 07:04:06 PM
It was a hire car ... do you think one of the other people who had hired it prior to the McCanns might have carried a body in the boot?

Only if the parents were the most unlucky people ever to live.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on March 26, 2019, 07:04:32 PM
There is always the possibility of the identical twin running around that no one told you about.

Nice try, Rob, but that doesn't quite cut it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 26, 2019, 07:09:18 PM
Nice try, Rob, but that doesn't quite cut it.
I still think I'm right though.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on March 26, 2019, 07:12:00 PM
Where did you get that idea?
I didn't, it's a question. What's the consensus?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 26, 2019, 07:16:27 PM
I didn't, it's a question. What's the consensus?


one in the boot...one in the coffin...one in the fridge...one in the flowerbed..one in the bluebag...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 26, 2019, 07:19:27 PM
Are we all agreed that there was probably a body in the boot then?
Hilarious.  Can I use an emoji here? 
 *&^^&
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on March 26, 2019, 07:21:09 PM
I still think I'm right though.

So how many of the aforementioned Trillions are likely to be non existent twins?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 26, 2019, 07:22:29 PM
I didn't, it's a question. What's the consensus?
What’s your view? 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on March 26, 2019, 07:52:49 PM

one in the boot...one in the coffin...one in the fridge...one in the flowerbed..one in the bluebag...
So there's one in favour. Cheers.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on March 26, 2019, 07:55:33 PM
What’s your view?
Well, hence the question. Need data. Has it been established that, on the balance of probabilities, there was a dead person in the boot of the hire car at some point?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on March 26, 2019, 07:56:43 PM
Well, hence the question. Need data. Has it been established that, on the balance of probabilities, there was a dead person in the boot of the hire car at some point?

No.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on March 26, 2019, 08:01:27 PM
No.
There ya go. Thank you.
Off topic, I know, but why?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 26, 2019, 08:19:17 PM
Well, hence the question. Need data. Has it been established that, on the balance of probabilities, there was a dead person in the boot of the hire car at some point?

are you serious ...established by whom ...when and where
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on March 26, 2019, 08:31:16 PM
are you serious ...established by whom ...when and where
Well what do you think? Your opinion, on the balance of probabilities. That's all.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 26, 2019, 08:32:42 PM
Well what do you think? Your opinion, on the balance of probabilities. That's all.

zero
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on March 26, 2019, 08:33:49 PM
Well what do you think? Your opinion, on the balance of probabilities. That's all.

Balance of probabilities don't apply in criminal law, only in civil law.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on March 26, 2019, 08:42:58 PM
Balance of probabilities don't apply in criminal law, only in civil law.
I'm well aware of the general terms of reference of law, but I'm not arguing a civil or criminal case, I'm asking what people's opinion is about the proposition that there was a body in the hire car at some point.
Yes or no. We are allowed to use the term 'balance of probabilities' in other contexts other than civil law. It's a reasonable mind weighing up a decision given all of the available data. It's not The Paisley Snail we're ruminating over here.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 26, 2019, 08:44:18 PM
I'm well aware of the general terms of reference of law, but I'm not arguing a civil or criminal case, I'm asking what people's opinion is about the proposition that there was a body in the hire car at some point.
Yes or no. We are allowed to use the term 'balance of probabilities' in other contexts other than civil law. It's a reasonable mind weighing up a decision given all of the available data. It's not The Paisley Snail we're ruminating over here.

why is it important what is thought on this tiny forum...waht is important is the evidence to support it
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 26, 2019, 08:46:28 PM
So how many of the aforementioned Trillions are likely to be non existent twins?
Identical twins separated at birth will have happened at sometime in the past.
"5 True Stories of Twins Separated at Birth"  https://science.howstuffworks.com/life/genetic/5-true-stories-twins-separated-at-birth.htm
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 26, 2019, 08:46:32 PM
Well, hence the question. Need data. Has it been established that, on the balance of probabilities, there was a dead person in the boot of the hire car at some point?
No it hasn’t.  If it had the McCanns would probably hanging up in chains in a a Portuguese dungeon by now. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on March 26, 2019, 08:48:46 PM
No it hasn’t.  If it had the McCanns would probably hanging up in chains in a a Portuguese dungeon by now.
I meant established by the good patrons of this forum.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 26, 2019, 08:49:06 PM
I'm well aware of the general terms of reference of law, but I'm not arguing a civil or criminal case, I'm asking what people's opinion is about the proposition that there was a body in the hire car at some point.
Yes or no. We are allowed to use the term 'balance of probabilities' in other contexts other than civil law. It's a reasonable mind weighing up a decision given all of the available data. It's not The Paisley Snail we're ruminating over here.

anyne who believes that there was abody in the hire car shows they are willing to believe it without a shred of evidence...which makes their opinion worthless
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 26, 2019, 08:50:44 PM
I'm well aware of the general terms of reference of law, but I'm not arguing a civil or criminal case, I'm asking what people's opinion is about the proposition that there was a body in the hire car at some point.
Yes or no. We are allowed to use the term 'balance of probabilities' in other contexts other than civil law. It's a reasonable mind weighing up a decision given all of the available data. It's not The Paisley Snail we're ruminating over here.
Well I can't recall the McCanns (Gerry or Kate) ever denying there had been a cadaver in the boot of the hire car.  I have heard someone argue that it was unlikely to be Madeleine though. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 26, 2019, 08:51:23 PM
I meant established by the good patrons of this forum.
How do you propose we establish such a thing? 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on March 26, 2019, 08:54:44 PM
why is it important what is thought on this tiny forum...
Then why are we here? We're very unlikely to suddenly stumble upon a breakthrough, so we discuss the minutiae of the case. Otherwise we may as all just pack up and b....r off home.
I want to know the consensus of opinion; that's why I'm here, I want to know what the hive mind says about this particular aspect of the case. That's why it's important.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on March 26, 2019, 08:57:03 PM
anyne who believes that there was abody in the hire car shows they are willing to believe it without a shred of evidence...which makes their opinion worthless
Can I chalk you down for a 'no' then?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 26, 2019, 08:58:19 PM
Then why are we here? We're very unlikely to suddenly stumble upon a breakthrough, so we discuss the minutiae of the case. Otherwise we may as all just pack up and b....r off home.
I want to know the consensus of opinion; that's why I'm here, I want to know what the hive mind says about this particular aspect of the case. That's why it's important.
It’s not important what half a dozen poeple with too much time on their hands think about whether or not there was a corpse in the McCanns car, I assure you.  8**8:/:
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 26, 2019, 08:59:27 PM
Then why are we here? We're very unlikely to suddenly stumble upon a breakthrough, so we discuss the minutiae of the case. Otherwise we may as all just pack up and b....r off home.
I want to know the consensus of opinion; that's why I'm here, I want to know what the hive mind says about this particular aspect of the case. That's why it's important.

so thats why its important to you...not why its important...as ive said...thers no evidence to support a body in the boot...anyone who admits to believing it is admitting their views re not based on evidence....as all mine are
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on March 26, 2019, 09:00:05 PM
I'm well aware of the general terms of reference of law, but I'm not arguing a civil or criminal case, I'm asking what people's opinion is about the proposition that there was a body in the hire car at some point.
Yes or no. We are allowed to use the term 'balance of probabilities' in other contexts other than civil law. It's a reasonable mind weighing up a decision given all of the available data. It's not The Paisley Snail we're ruminating over here.

Eddie didn't alert near the air vents in the boot lid of the Renault Scenic. We were reliably informed by both his handler & the many hundreds of dog enthusiasts on the internet that Eddie was never wrong. Therefore it should be concluded beyond reasonable doubt that there had never been a body in the boot or Eddie would have alerted.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on March 26, 2019, 09:00:15 PM
How do you propose we establish such a thing?
There's only one way to find out.........FIGHT POLL!
POLL POLL POLL POLL! [marches off down the road, punching fist in air, shouting poll all the way to the Post Office and beyond]
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on March 26, 2019, 09:01:50 PM
It’s not important what half a dozen poeple with too much time on their hands think about whether or not there was a corpse in the McCanns car, I assure you.  8**8:/:
Yet here you are, 6000 posts later.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 26, 2019, 09:02:06 PM
Then why are we here? We're very unlikely to suddenly stumble upon a breakthrough, so we discuss the minutiae of the case. Otherwise we may as all just pack up and b....r off home.
I want to know the consensus of opinion; that's why I'm here, I want to know what the hive mind says about this particular aspect of the case. That's why it's important.
an imprtant point is taht mark Saukanoko says in his podcast that if maddie dna is found in the car it palces maddies body in the car...that is factually incorrect and to me shows he has neither the knowledge or the skills to be hosting a podcast on this case
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on March 26, 2019, 09:04:33 PM
an imprtant point is taht mark Saukanoko says in his podcast that if maddie dna is found in the car it palces maddies body in the car...that is factually incorrect and to me shows he has neither the knowledge or the skills to be hosting a podcast on this case
Thanks Davel. This is what I'm after.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 26, 2019, 09:07:41 PM
Yet here you are, 6000 posts later.
Unlike some people (you?) I do not have delusions of grandeur and do not view anything that I or anyone else writes on this forum as remotely important.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on March 26, 2019, 09:13:07 PM
Unlike some people (you?) I do not have delusions of grandeur and do not view anything that I or anyone else writes on this forum as remotely important.
I focus on unimportant trivia on an insignificant forum and am deluded. Got it.
Good job that opinion isn't important.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 26, 2019, 09:14:34 PM
I focus on unimportant trivia on an insignificant forum and am deluded. Got it.
Good job that opinion isn't important.
8((()*/
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 26, 2019, 09:51:40 PM
an imprtant point is taht mark Saukanoko says in his podcast that if maddie dna is found in the car it palces maddies body in the car...that is factually incorrect and to me shows he has neither the knowledge or the skills to be hosting a podcast on this case
At this stage I tend to agree with Mark Suanokonoko.   DNA testing is sensitive enough to pick up 100 cells left behind.  There is a difference between 100 cells from 1 individual compared to 100 cells from 100 individuals all contributing 1 cell each.

OK Madeleine's shoes carried in the boot may lose cells into the boot but I doubt if that type of transfer has ever yielded an identifiable amount of DNA transferred.

Can anyone show me an example of transference?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 26, 2019, 10:08:45 PM
At this stage I tend to agree with Mark Suanokonoko.   DNA testing is sensitive enough to pick up 100 cells left behind.  There is a difference between 100 cells from 1 individual compared to 100 cells from 100 individuals all contributing 1 cell each.

OK Madeleine's shoes carried in the boot may lose cells into the boot but I doubt if that type of transfer has ever yielded an identifiable amount of DNA transferred.

Can anyone show me an example of transference?

You agree with Mark... Just about every court decision does not... I'm astonished you don't realize this.  ..this us exactly  why the case Re perlin I posted today was thrown out... And the Omagh bombing case was thrown out... Maddies DNA found in the car does not place maddies body in the car.. Fgs.. Do some research and educate yourself
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on March 26, 2019, 10:10:18 PM
At this stage I tend to agree with Mark Suanokonoko.   DNA testing is sensitive enough to pick up 100 cells left behind.  There is a difference between 100 cells from 1 individual compared to 100 cells from 100 individuals all contributing 1 cell each.

OK Madeleine's shoes carried in the boot may lose cells into the boot but I doubt if that type of transfer has ever yielded an identifiable amount of DNA transferred.

Can anyone show me an example of transference?

https://www.wired.com/story/dna-transfer-framed-murder/


Bear in mind Grime used dog leads at all the places he deployed the dogs. DNA from gloves used in 5A could quite easily have been transferred via the lead, onto latex gloves & into the areas in the Scenic boot where he was seen tapping areas for Keela to scent.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on March 26, 2019, 10:13:56 PM
Then there was this case of scent transfer which sent a police force looking for the wrong person.
http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1888126,00.html
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on March 27, 2019, 05:55:20 AM
Then there was this case of scent transfer which sent a police force looking for the wrong person.
http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1888126,00.html

As I have frequently said, DNA is not to be trusted.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on March 27, 2019, 07:50:50 AM
https://www.wired.com/story/dna-transfer-framed-murder/


Bear in mind Grime used dog leads at all the places he deployed the dogs. DNA from gloves used in 5A could quite easily have been transferred via the lead, onto latex gloves & into the areas in the Scenic boot where he was seen tapping areas for Keela to scent.
That's quite a stretch, particularly given that he couldn't possibly have contaminated the apartment in the same manner.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 27, 2019, 08:37:39 AM
https://www.wired.com/story/dna-transfer-framed-murder/


Bear in mind Grime used dog leads at all the places he deployed the dogs. DNA from gloves used in 5A could quite easily have been transferred via the lead, onto latex gloves & into the areas in the Scenic boot where he was seen tapping areas for Keela to scent.

Keela detected human blood, not DNA.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 27, 2019, 10:45:23 AM
Keela detected human blood, not DNA.

You are stating opinion as fact again.... No confirmation of blood... That's the true fact
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 27, 2019, 12:30:46 PM
You are stating opinion as fact again.... No confirmation of blood... That's the true fact

Keela was never trained to detect DNA, so the idea that she would was pure speculation, don't you agree?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 27, 2019, 12:49:45 PM
Keela was never trained to detect DNA, so the idea that she would was pure speculation, don't you agree?
The idea that the sample is blood is speculation...keela alerted to an area...a residue was found....we are not even certain it was this residue keela alerted to...but certainly teh residue was not identified as blood
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 27, 2019, 01:23:58 PM
The idea that the sample is blood is speculation...keela alerted to an area...a residue was found....we are not even certain it was this residue keela alerted to...but certainly teh residue was not identified as blood

You're extremely sceptical of everyone and everything except the T9, aren't you? Everything they say you accept whether they can support their claims with evidence or not.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 27, 2019, 01:34:53 PM
You're extremely sceptical of everyone and everything except the T9, aren't you? Everything they say you accept whether they can support their claims with evidence or not.

once again you are posting your opinion as fact...and once again you are wrong....I dont think the T9 are involved based on the evidence
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 27, 2019, 02:16:58 PM
once again you are posting your opinion as fact...and once again you are wrong....I dont think the T9 are involved based on the evidence

Based on your opinion of the evidence, which other's don't share. I certainly don't.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 27, 2019, 02:30:48 PM
Based on your opinion of the evidence, which other's don't share. I certainly don't.
Of course others do share my opinion... Certainly SY and the PJ appear to.. And that's what's imoprtant
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 27, 2019, 02:47:58 PM
Of course others do share my opinion... Certainly SY and the PJ appear to.. And that's what's imoprtant

You know absolutely nothing about the opinion of the PJ and SY.

Due to judicial secrecy the PJ aren’t allowed to talk and SY can’t even if the wanted, or were, asked to as Portugal has primacy in this case. That’s why we were told in August 2007 that the parents were not suspects when we now know that they were. Why some appear to ignore this point is confusing.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 27, 2019, 02:49:38 PM
SY and the PJ appear to share your opinion do they? The sample from the boot of the car appears to match the DNA of the child. Which appearances is it you're asking people to accept?
I'm not asking anyone to accept anything... There was no DNA match from the boot by the way...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 27, 2019, 02:50:46 PM
You know absolutely nothing about the opinion of the PJ and SY.

Due to judicial secrecy the PJ aren’t allowed to talk and SY can’t even if the wanted, or were, asked to as Portugal has primacy in this case. That’s why we were told in August 2007 that the parents were not suspects when we now know that they were. Why some appear to ignore this point is confusing.
Your points have all been discussed and explained many times...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 27, 2019, 03:08:04 PM
That seems fair enough.
Cite for there is no DNA match from the boot of the car? You're good at asking others for cites, so now it's your turn.

read lowes report
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 27, 2019, 03:19:19 PM
Your points have all been discussed and explained many times...

To your satisfaction.

The Portuguese have primacy in this case. SY could not tell us what is going on in either their or the PJ’s investigation without breaking judicial secrecy. That’s simply a fact.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 27, 2019, 03:34:30 PM
To your satisfaction.

The Portuguese have primacy in this case. SY could not tell us what is going on in either their or the PJ’s investigation without breaking judicial secrecy. That’s simply a fact.

Not suspects... No evidence... Fact
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 27, 2019, 03:57:58 PM
You are stating opinion as fact again.... No confirmation of blood... That's the true fact
Keela was definitely not trained to find Human DNA,
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 27, 2019, 04:00:11 PM
Keela was definitely not trained to find Human DNA,
We all know she was trained to find blood... That doesn't mean what was recovered was blood... Just as Eddie wasn't trained to find coconuts... But that's what was recovered
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 27, 2019, 04:08:59 PM
Not suspects... No evidence... Fact
Wasn't that statement just referring to the McCanns and not the whole group , the T9? 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 27, 2019, 04:14:53 PM
Wasn't that statement just referring to the McCanns and not the whole group , the T9?



As I recall he was asked about the mccanns not the friends
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 27, 2019, 04:21:47 PM
Wasn't that statement just referring to the McCanns and not the whole group , the T9?

"Neither her parents or any of the group that were with her are either persons of interest or suspects"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIH-AX2LlYA

*This doesn't prove they didn't do it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 27, 2019, 04:23:38 PM
As I recall he was asked about the mccanns not the friends
But in this thread the question was referring to the T9  http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10605.msg517623#msg517623
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 27, 2019, 04:27:00 PM
"Neither her parents or any of the group that were with her are either persons of interest or suspects"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIH-AX2LlYA

*This doesn't prove they didn't do it.
That was then.  OK good find.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 27, 2019, 04:40:02 PM
We all know she was trained to find blood... That doesn't mean what was recovered was blood... Just as Eddie wasn't trained to find coconuts... But that's what was recovered
Eddie alerts to an area not a specific item.  It is the humans with him that determined he was alerting to a coconut.  In the McCann case it is the humans who couldn't find the blood components that Keela was alerting to.  Don't blame the dog for the human failings.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 27, 2019, 04:55:18 PM
Eddie alerts to an area not a specific item.  It is the humans with him that determined he was alerting to a coconut.  In the McCann case it is the humans who couldn't find the blood components that Keela was alerting to.  Don't blame the dog for the human failings.

You are making an assumption that the alerts are always correct... We have no way of knowing if that is correct... I don't blame the dogs for anything as the dogs themselves have never made any claims... The fault... IMO.. Lies with the human interpretation of the alerts ...it's important to remember that the alerts themselves have no evidential reliability or value
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: John on March 27, 2019, 05:32:03 PM
You are making an assumption that the alerts are always correct... We have no way of knowing if that is correct... I don't blame the dogs for anything as the dogs themselves have never made any claims... The fault... IMO.. Lies with the human interpretation of the alerts ...it's important to remember that the alerts themselves have no evidential reliability or value

It goes without saying that CSI and cadaver dogs are an invaluable resource in any missing person investigation. Certainly, errors are made occasionally like with most things, scent and cadaver detection can be prone to all sorts of external factors.  Every dog is unique and no two dogs ever receive the exact same training. These dogs have solved many cases which would otherwise remain unsolved.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 27, 2019, 05:41:50 PM
Not suspects... No evidence... Fact

No knowledge.....fact.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 27, 2019, 05:45:25 PM
Can you imagine the speed with which the parents would contact their lawyers if it was even suggested that they hadn’t been ruled out of the investigation ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 27, 2019, 05:49:05 PM
It goes without saying that CSI and cadaver dogs are an invaluable resource in any missing person investigation. Certainly, errors are made occasionally like with most things, scent and cadaver detection can be prone to all sorts of external factors.  Every dog is unique and no two dogs ever receive the exact same training. These dogs have solved many cases which would otherwise remain unsolved.
From what I've seen cadaver and CSI dogs have been responsible for solving very.. Very.. Few cases... With good detective skills being far more important...
Prior to Luz Eddie only found one body.... And one since... In both PDL and Jersey the dogs discovered nothing of value..it's all hype.. Imo
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 27, 2019, 06:20:13 PM
Can you imagine the speed with which the parents would contact their lawyers if it was even suggested that they hadn’t been ruled out of the investigation ?
Don’t be silly please. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 27, 2019, 07:58:13 PM
You are making an assumption that the alerts are always correct... We have no way of knowing if that is correct... I don't blame the dogs for anything as the dogs themselves have never made any claims... The fault... IMO.. Lies with the human interpretation of the alerts ...it's important to remember that the alerts themselves have no evidential reliability or value
The dog alerting is a type of claim.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 27, 2019, 08:03:46 PM
The dog alerting is a type of claim.

What di you mean by that
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 27, 2019, 08:08:42 PM
What di you mean by that
I'm thinking the dog is saying "I have found what I'm trained to find and I want my reward".  So the dog is making a claim.

You could multiply that with the reliability estimate from training with known samples.  So for Grime's dogs you get 95% of the time that claim is correct.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 27, 2019, 08:13:48 PM
I'm thinking the dog is saying "I have found what I'm trained to find and I want my reward".  So the dog is making a claim.

You could multiply that with the reliability estimate from training with known samples.  So for Grime's dogs you get 95% of the time that claim is correct.
Si when the coconut was discovered Eddie was doing tbe same... From what I have read what you cannot do is speculate and decide what the dog is thinking..
Keela alerted... No blood found.. Alert not corroborated... According to the experts
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 27, 2019, 08:18:38 PM
Si when the coconut was discovered Eddie was doing tbe same... From what I have read what you cannot do is speculate and decide what the dog is thinking..
Keela alerted... No blood found.. Alert not corroborated... According to the experts

Eddie never found a coconut.   A human decided that is what the dog alerted to.  Try and get a dog to say coconut!

If you have an animal companion you definitely get to know what they are thinking.  If you think you can tell what a kid is thinking, same for a companion animal IMO.

What would prevent a cadaver lying across a piece of coconut shell and this resulting in transference of cadaver odour?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 27, 2019, 08:21:38 PM
Eddie never found a coconut.   A human decided that is what the dog alerted to.  Try and get a dog to say coconut!

If you have an animal companion you definitely get to know what they are thinking.  If you think you can tell what a kid is thinking, same for a companion animal IMO.
I absolutely agree with you re your first statement...Keela never found this sample...a human decided what the dog alerted to....I have  a Wondeful German Shepeherd
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 27, 2019, 08:24:00 PM
I absolutely agree with you re your first statement...Keela never found this sample...a human decided what the dog alerted to....I have  a Wondeful German Shepeherd
And have you tried to work out what your dog wants from time to time? 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 27, 2019, 08:24:45 PM
Eddie never found a coconut.   A human decided that is what the dog alerted to.  Try and get a dog to say coconut!

If you have an animal companion you definitely get to know what they are thinking.  If you think you can tell what a kid is thinking, same for a companion animal IMO.

What would prevent a cadaver lying across a piece of coconut shell and this resulting in transference of cadaver odour?

this is what makes the alerts basically useless without corroborating evidence
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 27, 2019, 08:26:10 PM
And have you tried to work out what your dog wants from time to time?

not sure what relevance taht has...it could be taht once the cadaver dog gets tired...he alerts knowing he will get a reward...may expalin all the unconfirmed alerts
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 27, 2019, 08:30:43 PM
not sure what relevance taht has...it could be taht once the cadaver dog gets tired...he alerts knowing he will get a reward...may expalin all the unconfirmed alerts
While Eddie or Keela were working I never saw them being rewarded.  Maybe they don't get rewarded on actual forensic searches.

Which seems right IMO as the handler can never be certain the dog is correct or not.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 27, 2019, 08:34:26 PM
While Eddie or Keela were working I never saw them being rewarded.  Maybe they don't get rewarded on actual forensic searches.

Which seems right IMO as the handler can never be certain the dog is correct or not.

need to ask Grime..i dont trust the alerts...particularly cuddle cat
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 27, 2019, 08:38:30 PM
need to ask Grime..i dont trust the alerts...particularly cuddle cat
Does Saunokonoko mention cuddle cat?  Cuddle Cat is off topic if not.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 27, 2019, 09:02:00 PM
While Eddie or Keela were working I never saw them being rewarded.  Maybe they don't get rewarded on actual forensic searches.

Which seems right IMO as the handler can never be certain the dog is correct or not.

They are tested to make sure they are correct. If they false alert in tests then bye bye. Their tennis ball is their reward.

"Apartment H5

We searched this apartment and the dog hasn't shown any interest in this particular apartment, apart from around the table, where there was a tennis ball which is how we reward the dog for finding things, as soon as we removed the tennis ball the interest was gone. And so it was a negative search."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 27, 2019, 09:23:19 PM
They are tested to make sure they are correct. If they false alert in tests then bye bye. Their tennis ball is their reward.

"Apartment H5

We searched this apartment and the dog hasn't shown any interest in this particular apartment, apart from around the table, where there was a tennis ball which is how we reward the dog for finding things, as soon as we removed the tennis ball the interest was gone. And so it was a negative search."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

I took that to mean that the tennis ball wasn't brought there for the purposes of rewarding the dog.

Rather the dog found a tennis ball in the apartment and hence was interested in playing with it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 27, 2019, 11:09:37 PM
Obviously because Martin Grime didn't put it there.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on March 27, 2019, 11:21:47 PM
They are tested to make sure they are correct. If they false alert in tests then bye bye. Their tennis ball is their reward.

"Apartment H5

We searched this apartment and the dog hasn't shown any interest in this particular apartment, apart from around the table, where there was a tennis ball which is how we reward the dog for finding things, as soon as we removed the tennis ball the interest was gone. And so it was a negative search."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

Eddie showed a great deal of interest in something under a single bed in 5D, to the point that he was repeatedly ignoring Grime's orders. What was under the bed & why did Grime fail to mention it?

Edited to alter apartment number.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 28, 2019, 12:04:53 AM
Eddie showed a great deal of interest in something under a single bed in 5H, to the point that he was repeatedly ignoring Grime's orders. What was under the bed & why did Grime fail to mention it?

Did he alert ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on March 28, 2019, 12:28:06 AM
Did he alert ?

No, he didn't alert but appeared quite desperate to get to whatever was under the bed. He didn't alert near the sofa in 5A living room until he was allowed behind it...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 28, 2019, 01:42:34 AM
Eddie showed a great deal of interest in something under a single bed in 5H, to the point that he was repeatedly ignoring Grime's orders. What was under the bed & why did Grime fail to mention it?
It may have been a pair of knickers. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 28, 2019, 01:43:23 AM
Did he alert ?
He was never allowed to get close enough.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 28, 2019, 04:00:52 AM
Eddie showed a great deal of interest in something under a single bed in 5H, to the point that he was repeatedly ignoring Grime's orders. What was under the bed & why did Grime fail to mention it?
From memory it was in Russell O'Brien's apartment where the object was under the bed. 5D
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 28, 2019, 01:14:07 PM
No, he didn't alert but appeared quite desperate to get to whatever was under the bed. He didn't alert near the sofa in 5A living room until he was allowed behind it...

If he didn’t alert then it is not relevant.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on March 28, 2019, 01:54:57 PM
From memory it was in Russell O'Brien's apartment where the object was under the bed. 5D

Yes, you are correct. Apologies, I will amend my post.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on March 28, 2019, 02:00:55 PM
If he didn’t alert then it is not relevant.

IMO because the dog showed interest in what was under the bed, the dog should have been granted access to under the bed in 5D. Eddie was not allowed to free-search in several locations, the search was controlled by the handler. Grime's diction changed from "go find, Eddie" to "no, Eddie, Eddie come (here) on many occasions - the latter instruction was frequently ignored by the dog.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 28, 2019, 02:07:58 PM
IMO because the dog showed interest in what was under the bed, the dog should have been granted access to under the bed in 5D. Eddie was not allowed to free-search in several locations, the search was controlled by the handler. Grime's diction changed from "go find, Eddie" to "no, Eddie, Eddie come (here) on many occasions - the latter instruction was frequently ignored by the dog.

If any old Tom, Dick or Harry could interpret the dog’s behaviour then we’d all be cadaver dog trainers.

I do find it disturbing that in almost all your posts re Grime you appear to be questioning his professionalism. Am I mistaken?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on March 28, 2019, 02:18:33 PM
If any old Tom, Dick or Harry could interpret the dog’s behaviour then we’d all be cadaver dog trainers.

I do find it disturbing that in almost all your posts re Grime you appear to be questioning his professionalism. Am I mistaken?

No, you are not mistaken. Why would that be any more disturbing than questioning the honesty of a group of professionals, two of whom have both their daughter's fate & their own lives & liberty at stake? Right or wrong, Grime had nothing to lose in Luz.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 28, 2019, 02:23:39 PM
No, you are not mistaken. Why would that be any more disturbing than questioning the honesty of a group of professionals, two of whom have both their daughter's fate & their own lives & liberty at stake? Right or wrong, Grime had nothing to lose in Luz.

Let’s be clear, are you saying that Grime deliberately sought to implicate the McCanns ? If so he knew that the alerts would have no worth unless verified by forensics so what would be the point ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on March 28, 2019, 02:41:53 PM
Let’s be clear, are you saying that Grime deliberately sought to implicate the McCanns ? If so he knew that the alerts would have no worth unless verified by forensics so what would be the point ?

No, I'm not saying Grime sought to implicate the McCanns; that was the PJ's remit imo. Fortunately for the McCanns, the corroborating forensics located were not sent to the INML & used as they were in the Cipriano case.
What I am saying is that the dog should have been allowed to free-search for what it was trained to find - Eddie shouldn't have needed controlling if he was the world's best.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 28, 2019, 02:54:00 PM
No, I'm not saying Grime sought to implicate the McCanns; that was the PJ's remit imo. Fortunately for the McCanns, the corroborating forensics located were not sent to the INML & used as they were in the Cipriano case.
What I am saying is that the dog should have been allowed to free-search for what it was trained to find - Eddie shouldn't have needed controlling if he was the world's best.

But Grime must have colluded with the PJ as must Mark Harrison as I believe he accompanied Grime.

What you seem to be saying is the PJ, Grime, Harrison and the INML all colluded to set up the McCanns. Is this correct ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on March 28, 2019, 02:59:55 PM
But Grime must have colluded with the PJ as must Mark Harrison as I believe he accompanied Grime.

What you seem to be saying is the PJ, Grime, Harrison and the INML all colluded to set up the McCanns. Is this correct ?

No.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 28, 2019, 03:13:20 PM
No.

Then please explain ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 28, 2019, 04:40:19 PM
But Grime must have colluded with the PJ as must Mark Harrison as I believe he accompanied Grime.

What you seem to be saying is the PJ, Grime, Harrison and the INML all colluded to set up the McCanns. Is this correct ?
Emphasise might be a better term than set up. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 28, 2019, 05:36:25 PM
If any old Tom, Dick or Harry could interpret the dog’s behaviour then we’d all be cadaver dog trainers.
..
I do find it disturbing that in almost all your posts re Grime you appear to be questioning his professionalism. Am I mistaken?

I understand  Sil has trained a fully operational cadaver dog..
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 28, 2019, 05:40:32 PM
I understand  Sil has trained a fully operational cadaver dog..
I wonder what qualifications Grime has that makes him a supreme interpreter of dog behaviour?  Can you get an ology in dog barks?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on March 28, 2019, 05:42:52 PM
Then please explain ?

I can't explain why Grime concluded that Eddie had alerted to certain items e.g. CC & the tiles behind the sofa when it's apparent from the video he didn't.
I can't explain why Eddie alerted to a minute piece of blood deposited on a key inside the glove pocket of a closed vehicle but didn't find a single trace on the streets of Luz or in any other apartment examined bar 5A.
I can't explain why Grime & Harrison allowed the dogs to examine clothing which had not been individually bagged as per ACPO guidelines and, furthermore, handled by multiple people during the transfer from villa to gym.
I can't explain why Grime used a video which was part of police evidence in an ongoing case to promote his dogs for the purpose of obtaining freelance work in another police case.
Can you explain why this "police work" should be deemed professional and, as I haven't yet listened to Saunokonoko's take on the dogs, why he would think any of the forensics harvested from the dog searches could one day solve the case?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 28, 2019, 06:45:13 PM
I can't explain why Grime concluded that Eddie had alerted to certain items e.g. CC & the tiles behind the sofa when it's apparent from the video he didn't.
I can't explain why Eddie alerted to a minute piece of blood deposited on a key inside the glove pocket of a closed vehicle but didn't find a single trace on the streets of Luz or in any other apartment examined bar 5A.
I can't explain why Grime & Harrison allowed the dogs to examine clothing which had not been individually bagged as per ACPO guidelines and, furthermore, handled by multiple people during the transfer from villa to gym.
I can't explain why Grime used a video which was part of police evidence in an ongoing case to promote his dogs for the purpose of obtaining freelance work in another police case.
Can you explain why this "police work" should be deemed professional and, as I haven't yet listened to Saunokonoko's take on the dogs, why he would think any of the forensics harvested from the dog searches could one day solve the case?

Then you need to make up your mind. Either Grime, Harrison et al conspired to set up the McCanns as you seem to be implying or they didn’t. Please answer with an answer and not more questions.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 28, 2019, 06:56:15 PM
Then you need to make up your mind. Either Grime, Harrison et al conspired to set up the McCanns as you seem to imply or they didn’t. Please answer with an answer and not more questions.
It would be still opinion.   There seems to be a discontinuity between what Grime says and does on the video.  Was it done subconsciously?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 28, 2019, 07:23:26 PM
I wonder if Grime has ever been to a suspected crime scene and his digs have not alerted
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 28, 2019, 07:44:19 PM
I wonder if Grime has ever been to a suspected crime scene and his digs have not alerted

I would have thought so, if a cadaver hadn’t been present at some point.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 28, 2019, 07:46:50 PM
I would have thought so, if a cadaver hadn’t been present at some point.


I'm not bothered what you think I'm asking a factual question
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 28, 2019, 07:53:24 PM
I can't explain why Grime concluded that Eddie had alerted to certain items e.g. CC & the tiles behind the sofa when it's apparent from the video he didn't.
I can't explain why Eddie alerted to a minute piece of blood deposited on a key inside the glove pocket of a closed vehicle but didn't find a single trace on the streets of Luz or in any other apartment examined bar 5A.
I can't explain why Grime & Harrison allowed the dogs to examine clothing which had not been individually bagged as per ACPO guidelines and, furthermore, handled by multiple people during the transfer from villa to gym.
I can't explain why Grime used a video which was part of police evidence in an ongoing case to promote his dogs for the purpose of obtaining freelance work in another police case.
Can you explain why this "police work" should be deemed professional and, as I haven't yet listened to Saunokonoko's take on the dogs, why he would think any of the forensics harvested from the dog searches could one day solve the case?

You can't explain? Perhaps that's because you know nothing about how these matters are organised. Everything you question is probably nothing unisual if you understand it all, which Grime and Harrison did. All you need to know is that both men were the best the UK had.

They worked together as the experts advising all UK police forces. If your criticisms are valid then ACPO were offering advisers who were inadequate. You are saying that ACPO's judgement was faulty. You are also accusing the FBI of faulty judgement when they praised Grime's expertise.

Do you really think that you spotted mistakes which none of those others spotted? I find that idea ludicrous.

All IMO, obviously.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 28, 2019, 07:56:08 PM
I wonder if Grime has ever been to a suspected crime scene and his digs have not alerted

The Murat residence for one.  8(0(*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 28, 2019, 07:57:08 PM
You can't explain? Perhaps that's because you know nothing about how these matters are organised. Everything you question is probably nothing unisual if you understand it all, which Grime and Harrison did. All you need to know is that both men were the best the UK had.

They worked together as the experts advising all UK police forces. If your criticisms are valid then ACPO were offering advisers who were inadequate. You are saying that ACPO's judgement was faulty. You are also accusing the FBI of faulty judgement when they praised Grime's expertise.

Do you really think that you spotted mistakes which none of those others spotted? I find that idea ludicrous.

All IMO, obviously.

Harrison said no inference can be drawn from the alerts...you know what Grime said... Absolutely  valueless
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 28, 2019, 08:07:12 PM
You can't explain? Perhaps that's because you know nothing about how these matters are organised. Everything you question is probably nothing unisual if you understand it all, which Grime and Harrison did. All you need to know is that both men were the best the UK had.

They worked together as the experts advising all UK police forces. If your criticisms are valid then ACPO were offering advisers who were inadequate. You are saying that ACPO's judgement was faulty. You are also accusing the FBI of faulty judgement when they praised Grime's expertise.

Do you really think that you spotted mistakes which none of those others spotted? I find that idea ludicrous.

All IMO, obviously.
You do realise you do this all the time on this forum don’t you?  IMO.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 28, 2019, 08:18:22 PM

I'm not bothered what you think I'm asking a factual question

You asked a question and I answered it.

Can I suggest if you want a definitive answer you do some research ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 28, 2019, 09:24:14 PM
Harrison said no inference can be drawn from the alerts...you know what Grime said... Absolutely  valueless

If the results are absolutely valueless there's no need whatsoever to try and discredit their methodology, is there? Also, if their search methods were inadequate why believe their words?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 28, 2019, 09:33:40 PM
If the results are absolutely valueless there's no need whatsoever to try and discredit their methodology, is there? Also, if their search methods were inadequate why believe their words?

Your post doesn't make a lot of sense... Imo
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 28, 2019, 09:46:26 PM
Your post doesn't make a lot of sense... Imo

Were they incompetent as one person is arguing? Or were they competent as you seem to be suggesting?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on March 28, 2019, 09:54:41 PM
You can't explain? Perhaps that's because you know nothing about how these matters are organised. Everything you question is probably nothing unisual if you understand it all, which Grime and Harrison did. All you need to know is that both men were the best the UK had.

They worked together as the experts advising all UK police forces. If your criticisms are valid then ACPO were offering advisers who were inadequate. You are saying that ACPO's judgement was faulty. You are also accusing the FBI of faulty judgement when they praised Grime's expertise.

Do you really think that you spotted mistakes which none of those others spotted? I find that idea ludicrous.

All IMO, obviously.

Harrison's expertise was geo-forensics & locating missing people, not cadaver dog handling. He worked for NPIA, not ACPO.
To the best of my knowledge, Eddie was Grime's first cadaver dog. His CV was with NPIA - was that standard practice for all serving UK police dog handlers?
I am not the only person on this forum to conclude that Eddie did not alert to CC & my earlier post did not include that claim.
Instead of criticising what I can't explain after watching the Luz video & copious amounts of research (bearing in mind I could be on a jury asked to consider similar evidence) perhaps you could present the dog evidence in a form other than "because Grime said so..."
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on March 28, 2019, 10:30:57 PM
Tell me, when you were conducting this research, did you ever discover what exact date they were told about the dogs going to PDL?

Who is "they"?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on March 28, 2019, 10:38:29 PM
Sorry, the McCanns?

What relevance does that date have to the subsequent dog deployments?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on March 28, 2019, 10:52:05 PM
I never said it had any relevance, I was only asking. Do you know at all, and who it was that told them?

In Harrison's report of 23(?) July 2007 he referred to the use of a VRD dog team & an EVRD + CSI blood dog. He only costed the EVRD + CSI dog. Therefore any decision to only use Eddie & Keela must have been made on or after that date but I don't know offhand who told the McCanns. Gerry had previously asked for specialist dogs from the UK to be deployed & the UK police had offered such a service to the PJ in the early days but the PJ declined.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 28, 2019, 10:54:12 PM
Harrison's expertise was geo-forensics & locating missing people, not cadaver dog handling. He worked for NPIA, not ACPO.
To the best of my knowledge, Eddie was Grime's first cadaver dog. His CV was with NPIA - was that standard practice for all serving UK police dog handlers?
I am not the only person on this forum to conclude that Eddie did not alert to CC & my earlier post did not include that claim.
Instead of criticising what I can't explain after watching the Luz video & copious amounts of research (bearing in mind I could be on a jury asked to consider similar evidence) perhaps you could present the dog evidence in a form other than "because Grime said so..."

So the National Polucing Improvement Agency were sending out two men to advise all UK police agencies and they never noticed those men were incompetent?  &%%6 how clever are you!!





Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 28, 2019, 11:04:56 PM
So the National Polucing Improvement Agency were sending out two men to advise all UK police agencies and they never noticed those men were incompetent?  &%%6 how clever are you!!
There is incompetence in all areas of both the public and private sectors and at all levels from CEO to cleaner, the police are certainly not exempt- did you watch the Yorkshire Ripper documentary?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on March 28, 2019, 11:12:45 PM
So the National Polucing Improvement Agency were sending out two men to advise all UK police agencies and they never noticed those men were incompetent?  &%%6 how clever are you!!

I'm at a loss to understand what you mean. Harrison was sent out to consider where Madeleine's body may have been buried, had she been murdered, based on his knowledge of geo-forensics. That's his specialist field (hence his involvement in the searches for flight MH370 which didn't require dogs). He wasn't qualified to recognise the capability levels of a cadaver dog or handler & if a dog's record is based on the number of bodies it locates then Eddie didn't score very highly imo.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 28, 2019, 11:24:19 PM
In Harrison's report of 23(?) July 2007 he referred to the use of a VRD dog team & an EVRD + CSI blood dog. He only costed the EVRD + CSI dog. Therefore any decision to only use Eddie & Keela must have been made on or after that date but I don't know offhand who told the McCanns. Gerry had previously asked for specialist dogs from the UK to be deployed & the UK police had offered such a service to the PJ in the early days but the PJ declined.

Mark Harrison knew all about these dogs well before the McCann case.

31 DEC 2005

Her handler, Pc Martin Grime, has been responsible for training Keela, along with National Search Adviser Mark Harrison, since June last year.

Keela, a 16-month-old springer spaniel, can sniff out the smallest samples of human blood - even after items have been cleaned or washed many times.

A South Yorkshire force spokeswoman said Keela - officially a crime scene investigation dog - has saved more then Ł200,000 nationally since April this year, helping with investigations in Ireland, Cornwall, Wiltshire, Surrey and the Thames Valley.

 http://eddieandkeela.blogspot.com/2005/12/how-police-dog-earns-more-than-top.html
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 28, 2019, 11:31:18 PM
Tell me, when you were conducting this research, did you ever discover what exact date they were told about the dogs going to PDL?

According to Kate's book they may have been told on 18th July, but she isn't soecific about who told them. She says the NPIA received the request on 20th July and Harrison must have moved fast as his first report was written on 23rd. Gerry McCann flew to Washington that day. On 20th Jose de Freitas visited their villa and said something about the planning for the searches.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on March 28, 2019, 11:42:59 PM
Seems a strange request from Gerry don't you think given he viewed these specialist dogs as incredibly unreliable?
However, Harrison was actually sent on the 20th of July prior to writing his report. Gerry was in direct telephone contact with Stuart Prior between 3rd to 19th July and hey presto 12th of July cuddle cat goes into the washing machine.
I make absolutely no apologies for refusing point blank to buy the 'it was filthy with suntan lotion' excuse - no way. IMO no normal grieving mother or father washes their missing child's soft toy while their still missing. If so, cite a single example? I lost a handicapped sister some years ago and she had a soft toy that's a small dog of all things, it's dirty, it's dusty it's got her soul all over it. The thought of putting it through a wash will never enter my head. They had 70 days to wash the toy, the fact is, they choose to do it around the time of learning about the dogs, 12th July. Martin Grimes said the dog alerted to the toy and Kate popping it into the washing confirms that alert without any doubt to me.
From my personal experience, no amount of research on cadaver dogs will ever mitigate two innocent parents of a missing child washing their missing daughter's soft toy. Just doesn't happen imo.

I am sorry for your loss and assume your sister's toy dog remained within the confines of your home rather than carried around a holiday resort by mum & siblings.
From Kate's diary http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/19-Sep8/NOTW-14-09-08.htm
THURSDAY, JULY 12: I hate the person who took my Madeleine'the same one who has caused all this trouble, who made us feel worthless and mistrushut upl and mainly who has frightened my beautiful Madeleine. I will never forgive that person/those people for this. Never.

Today I washed the Cuddle Cat (Madeleine's favourite soft toy and a constant comfort to heartbroken Kate). I was hoping not to have to do it until Madeleine returns, but it was now quite dirty and smelly, unfortunately without the smell of Madeleine on it. XX


Please then read the entry of Wed 18th July 2007.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 28, 2019, 11:43:29 PM
Seems a strange request from Gerry don't you think given he viewed these specialist dogs as incredibly unreliable?
However, Harrison was actually sent on the 20th of July prior to writing his report. Gerry was in direct telephone contact with Stuart Prior between 3rd to 19th July and hey presto 12th of July cuddle cat goes into the washing machine.
I make absolutely no apologies for refusing point blank to buy the 'it was filthy with suntan lotion' excuse - no way. IMO no normal grieving mother or father washes their missing child's soft toy while their still missing. If so, cite a single example? I lost a handicapped sister some years ago and she had a soft toy that's a small dog of all things, it's dirty, it's dusty it's got her soul all over it. The thought of putting it through a wash will never enter my head. They had 70 days to wash the toy, the fact is, they choose to do it around the time of learning about the dogs, 12th July. Martin Grimes said the dog alerted to the toy and Kate popping it into the washing confirms that alert without any doubt to me.
From my personal experience, no amount of research on cadaver dogs will ever mitigate two innocent parents of a missing child washing their missing daughter's soft toy. Just doesn't happen imo.

My grandson was killed in an RTA 7 years ago and my daughter still has his unwashed clothes. Madeleine's clothes went to the laundry almost straight away. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 28, 2019, 11:45:21 PM
Seems a strange request from Gerry don't you think given he viewed these specialist dogs as incredibly unreliable?
However, Harrison was actually sent on the 20th of July prior to writing his report. Gerry was in direct telephone contact with Stuart Prior between 3rd to 19th July and hey presto 12th of July cuddle cat goes into the washing machine.
I make absolutely no apologies for refusing point blank to buy the 'it was filthy with suntan lotion' excuse - no way. IMO no normal grieving mother or father washes their missing child's soft toy while their still missing. If so, cite a single example? I lost a handicapped sister some years ago and she had a soft toy that's a small dog of all things, it's dirty, it's dusty it's got her soul all over it. The thought of putting it through a wash will never enter my head. They had 70 days to wash the toy, the fact is, they choose to do it around the time of learning about the dogs, 12th July. Martin Grimes said the dog alerted to the toy and Kate popping it into the washing confirms that alert without any doubt to me.
From my personal experience, no amount of research on cadaver dogs will ever mitigate two innocent parents of a missing child washing their missing daughter's soft toy. Just doesn't happen imo.
What personal experience have you had of innocent parents of missing children and their soft toy cleanliness regimes?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 28, 2019, 11:47:51 PM
My grandson was killed in an RTA 7 years ago and my daughter still has his unwashed clothes. Madeleine's clothes went to the laundry almost straight away.
I am sorry for your loss but what is the point of tnis observation ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on March 28, 2019, 11:50:53 PM
Mark Harrison knew all about these dogs well before the McCann case.

31 DEC 2005

Her handler, Pc Martin Grime, has been responsible for training Keela, along with National Search Adviser Mark Harrison, since June last year.

Keela, a 16-month-old springer spaniel, can sniff out the smallest samples of human blood - even after items have been cleaned or washed many times.

A South Yorkshire force spokeswoman said Keela - officially a crime scene investigation dog - has saved more then Ł200,000 nationally since April this year, helping with investigations in Ireland, Cornwall, Wiltshire, Surrey and the Thames Valley.

 http://eddieandkeela.blogspot.com/2005/12/how-police-dog-earns-more-than-top.html

How did that joint training come about, given that Grime worked for SYP (living in Doncaster?) & Harrison worked for Bedford police & was often deployed abroad?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 28, 2019, 11:53:08 PM
I am sorry for your loss but what is the point of tnis observation ?

If you read Cheeky Monkey's post you will understand.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 29, 2019, 12:06:31 AM
My grandson was killed in an RTA 7 years ago and my daughter still has his unwashed clothes. Madeleine's clothes went to the laundry almost straight away.

And her sticker book was torn to pieces. Surely it should have been treasured not destroyed?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on March 29, 2019, 12:15:48 AM
I was only providing a personal example, I wasn't looking for sympathy but thanks all the same, it's not went unnoticed.
With all due respect, there is nothing in Kate's diary from any day, which I believe she wrote to be read anyway, that mitigates her washing her missing daughter's soft toy imo. It's going to take an alive Madeleine McCann to convince me otherwise on that one. It's because she washed it, and we don't know how many times, that proves beyond all reasonable doubt in my mind, the alert to the toy was an accurate one.
IMO innocent parents just do not wash their missing child's soft toys. If you think they do, then that's your opinion, definitely not mine. I find the whole idea simply not believable and there's not a thing I can do about that. Good old East End of Glasgow human intuition I suppose. It's never let me down yet.

Once upon a time on this forum there was a super-observant poster called Pegasus. The CC alert was discussed at length & from his observations by freeze-framing the sequence of images immediately before Eddie barked we learned that Eddie's nose had been pointed at the dining table top & not the cupboard from which CC was retrieved & displayed. May I recommend you try that process & your opinion may change - and bear in mind the PJ also questioned why the dog passed by & played with CC in the living area without alerting more than once.
As to washing the toy - I probably would have washed it after 2 months if it was becoming a health hazard to my other children.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 29, 2019, 12:16:55 AM
My personal experience is with my late handicapped sister's soft toy and my non cleaning regime. If you have examples of innocent parents washing their missing children's favorite soft toys while their still missing I'll be more than willing to listen to them?

I think the McCanns are the exception rather than the rule.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 29, 2019, 12:18:06 AM
Once upon a time on this forum there was a super-observant poster called Pegasus. The CC alert was discussed at length & from his observations by freeze-framing the sequence of images immediately before Eddie barked we learned that Eddie's nose had been pointed at the dining table top & not the cupboard from which CC was retrieved & displayed. May I recommend you try that process & your opinion may change - and bear in mind the PJ also questioned why the dog passed by & played with CC in the living area without alerting more than once.
As to washing the toy - I probably would have washed it after 2 months if it was becoming a health hazard to my other children.

I would have put it in something protective. I certainly would never have thought of using it as a prop ( I believe in the villa footage with Eddie CC was thrown in a corner ).
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on March 29, 2019, 12:23:02 AM
I would have put it in something protective. I certainly would never have thought of using it as a prop ( I believe in the villa footage with Eddie CC was thrown in a corner ).

IMO if the police had done their job properly CC would have been suitably protected in an evidence bag from 4th May 2007...but there we go.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 29, 2019, 12:36:53 AM
IMO if the police had done their job properly CC would have been suitably protected in an evidence bag from 4th May 2007...but there we go.

But he wasn’t and it appears was cast aside in a corner when not needed for the cameras.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on March 29, 2019, 12:42:42 AM
But he wasn’t and it appears was cast aside in a corner when not needed for the cameras.

The PJ were filming the exercise at the villa - so who put CC in the bin? Didn't Jon Corner say PJ wanted CC left at the villa but the parents out of it?

ETA

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id161.htm
Jon Corner - Panorama documentary


 
"CORNER: Well this is the bizarre thing Richard because the police said to Kate and Gerry: "Yeah, we're going to be coming along, we want to do some forensics." And Kate and Gerry were massively optimistic about this. You've got to remember if your daughter is missing and the police phone you and say: "We want to do some forensics, that's a straw that you hang onto. That's a moment for optimism.
 
- Just earlier in the documentary, Corner had said this:
 
CORNER: They took most of their clothing, they were taking even the wet clothes out of the washing machine. I was aware that the cuddlecat was boxed up and we were asked to leave the villa."
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 29, 2019, 01:04:24 AM
The PJ were filming the exercise at the villa - so who put CC in the bin? Didn't Jon Corner say PJ wanted CC left at the villa but the parents out of it?

ETA

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id161.htm
Jon Corner - Panorama documentary


 
"CORNER: Well this is the bizarre thing Richard because the police said to Kate and Gerry: "Yeah, we're going to be coming along, we want to do some forensics." And Kate and Gerry were massively optimistic about this. You've got to remember if your daughter is missing and the police phone you and say: "We want to do some forensics, that's a straw that you hang onto. That's a moment for optimism.
 
- Just earlier in the documentary, Corner had said this:
 
CORNER: They took most of their clothing, they were taking even the wet clothes out of the washing machine. I was aware that the cuddlecat was boxed up and we were asked to leave the villa."

Yet we now know that the by this time the McCanns knew that the police suspected them of not telling the truth and would have known that any forensic searches that were being carried out were not a cause for optimism. So either the parents didn’t tell their friend Corner that the PJ suspected them or Corner is being dishonest in stating that the parents were optimistic about the searches.

I love these old interviews. So revealing when compared with what we know now.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on March 29, 2019, 01:11:13 AM
Yet we now know that the by this time the McCanns knew that the police suspected them of not telling the truth and would have known that any forensic searches that were being carried out were not a cause for optimism. So either the parents didn’t tell their friend Corner that the PJ suspected them or Corner is being dishonest in stating that the parents were optimistic about the searches.

I love these old interviews. So revealing when compared with what we know now.

Surely it was a cause for optimism when all items taken by the PJ were returned without being retained for further analysis, despite what was being leaked to the press?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 29, 2019, 01:16:23 AM
Surely it was a cause for optimism when all items taken by the PJ were returned without being retained for further analysis, despite what was being leaked to the press?

But that’s not what Corner says. He said the parents were optimistic about the searches taking place which we know is simply not true as they knew they were suspected of having a part in their daughter’s disappearance. Do you think Corner wasn’t told or was he simply lying ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on March 29, 2019, 01:27:21 AM
But that’s not what Corner says. He said the parents were optimistic about the searches taking place which we know is simply not true as they knew they were suspected of having a part in their daughter’s disappearance. Do you think Corner wasn’t told or was he simply lying ?

I've no idea what he was told but he did say he didn't share their optimism at the time. Possibly Kate & Gerry mistakenly thought PJ had some DNA from a suspect & wanted to match it to specific items in the McCanns' possession - as you would if you were innocent & very little else was being done to find Madeleine.
I wonder why the villa was searched by Eddie before Casa Liliana was?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 29, 2019, 01:32:25 AM
I've no idea what he was told but he did say he didn't share their optimism at the time. Possibly Kate & Gerry mistakenly thought PJ had some DNA from a suspect & wanted to match it to specific items in the McCanns' possession - as you would if you were innocent & very little else was being done to find Madeleine.
I wonder why the villa was searched by Eddie before Casa Liliana was?

I think the parents weren’t as niave as you appear to be
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on March 29, 2019, 01:37:45 AM
It's always intrigued me to learn if the clothes went into the wash before the police warned them they were coming along or after. She likes her washing machine our Kate. Her timing is not missed on us either.

I take it you're male & have no idea just how many clothes toddlers get through in a short space of time. The family didn't have their whole wardrobes of clothes with them, either.
The PJ told them they would be there in the morning...it was 6pm before their arrival.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on March 29, 2019, 01:42:22 AM
I think the parents weren’t as niave as you appear to be

Maybe they were trying to live in hope rather than fear - for Madeleine's sake.
 And I'm far from naive, Faith.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on March 29, 2019, 06:32:46 AM
If the results are absolutely valueless there's no need whatsoever to try and discredit their methodology, is there? Also, if their search methods were inadequate why believe their words?

In a Court of Law it wouldn't be necessary.  On a Discussion Forum it is the whole point.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on March 29, 2019, 06:44:23 AM
I was only providing a personal example, I wasn't looking for sympathy but thanks all the same, it's not went unnoticed.
With all due respect, there is nothing in Kate's diary from any day, which I believe she wrote to be read anyway, that mitigates her washing her missing daughter's soft toy imo. It's going to take an alive Madeleine McCann to convince me otherwise on that one. It's because she washed it, and we don't know how many times, that proves beyond all reasonable doubt in my mind, the alert to the toy was an accurate one.
IMO innocent parents just do not wash their missing child's soft toys. If you think they do, then that's your opinion, definitely not mine. I find the whole idea simply not believable and there's not a thing I can do about that. Good old East End of Glasgow human intuition I suppose. It's never let me down yet.

My own experience of Glaswegians is that they are very kind.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 29, 2019, 07:24:56 AM
My opinion will change if I see an alive Madeleine McCann. Otherwise forget it. Innocent parents just don't wash their missing child's favorite soft toys. It is really that simple. My sister's dirty old toy has been 16 years in my possession, it's never caused anyone in my home ill health.
If your happy with Kate's excuse who am I to question you. Fortunately, I'm the one with the East End of Glasgow intuition. It's never let me down yet, and there's absolutely no doubt it won't let me down now. You'll never convince me innocent parents wash their missing child's favorite soft toys when their still missing. That simply just does not happen. I'd put that one in the myths basket if I were you.
If it is a certainty that innocent parents never wash their missing child’s dirty toy after two months then this is conclusive proof that they are guilty.  Why then have they not been charged and found guilty?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on March 29, 2019, 07:27:45 AM
Maybe they were trying to live in hope rather than fear - for Madeleine's sake.
 And I'm far from naive, Faith.


Your posts have never indicated that this would be an apt description of yourself.
Faith had also accused me of being naive, an adjective which I do believe John has asked posters not to direct at fellow posters.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on March 29, 2019, 07:28:45 AM
My own experience of Glaswegians is that they are very kind.

Many are very kind but not all!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on March 29, 2019, 07:48:08 AM
If it is a certainty that innocent parents never wash their missing child’s dirty toy after two months then this is conclusive proof that they are guilty.  Why then have they not been charged and found guilty?

Perhaps someone could enlighten me as to whether each child has an individual smell.
My three all smelled the same as far as I can remember.
A combination of the hair shampoo, soap and washing powder being used at the time.
Once they started buying their own favourite deodorants, after shave etc.then they did acquire their own individual smell.

Small children will smell of the hair products, body soaps and the products used in the laundry.
Some children  unfortunately do not smell of these but smell of unchanged clothes, unwashed hair and unwashed bodies.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 29, 2019, 07:50:14 AM
My personal experience is with my late handicapped sister's soft toy and my non cleaning regime. If you have examples of innocent parents washing their missing children's favorite soft toys while their still missing I'll be more than willing to listen to them?
Sorry for your loss.  Did you carry this soft toy around with you for two months after her passing?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 29, 2019, 07:53:59 AM
And her sticker book was torn to pieces. Surely it should have been treasured not destroyed?
On the one hand here we have you painting a picture of callous parents, destroying evidence, destroying things that were supposedly dear to Madeleine, erasing all trace of her, appearing cold and emotionless and on the other hand you accept that they were loving and grieving parents.  The two portrayals do not compute.  Make up your mind about these parents once and for all please.  Loving, grieving parents or cold heartless contemptible excuses for parents.  Which is it?  You really can’t have it both ways as and when it suits you.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 29, 2019, 08:11:14 AM
I'm not looking for nor do I need sympathy from anyone but I have had much more contact with the toy in 16 years than Kate had in two months. It will never go in the washing machine, never,  as long as I'm alive. Like I say, if you have examples of grieving parents washing their missing children's soft toys while they are still missing I will be more than willing to consider them. It simply does not happen. It really is that simple.

your claim has little or no basis in reality...everyone is diferent...but its probably one of the best pieces of evidence sceptics have....why dont you add...not answerring te 48 quetions...going jogging...smiling...its a bit pathetic rally
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 29, 2019, 08:18:17 AM
I can quite understand why the courts would reject it as evidence, but if you ever come across proof that my East End of Glasgow human intuition is proved to be wrong, you be sure to let me know. I'll repeat it as many times as you like, it makes no difference to me, innocent parents do not wash their missing child's favorite soft toys. Especially after just around the time they learn a cadaver dog is on the way  8(0(*
Why do you think the courts would reject it as evidence then?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on March 29, 2019, 08:21:55 AM
I can quite understand why the courts would reject it as evidence, but if you ever come across proof that my East End of Glasgow human intuition is proved to be wrong, you be sure to let me know. I'll repeat it as many times as you like, it makes no difference to me, innocent parents do not wash their missing child's favorite soft toys. Especially after just around the time they learn a cadaver dog is on the way  8(0(*

Does this human intuition only exist in the East End of Glasgow or does it extend to other parts of Glasgow?
Does everyone from the East End of Glasgow possess such human intuition?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 29, 2019, 08:22:28 AM
Out of interest how do we know that Kate washed Cuddle Cat?  Did she admit this under police interrogation or did she divulge this information of her volition?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 29, 2019, 08:24:43 AM
I have no problem whatsoever accepting the fact that my claim has no basis in a court room. No problem at all. And if that fact opens my claim up to ridicule, so be it, it doesn't worry me in the slightest. But you be sure to let me know when my claim is proved wrong. The case is still being investigated, so you have a chance.
But that's never going to happen... and it's not going to happen because innocent parents simply do not wash their missing children's soft toys when they learn a cadaver dog is on the way. I'll add imo if it's ever proved wrong, not before.
I don’t think this claim of yours has ever been subjected to thorough investigation, ie that innocent parents never wash their missing children’s personal effects.  You have constructed an unchallengeable argument though one which you freely admit has no worth whatsoever in determing guilt or innocence.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 29, 2019, 08:25:08 AM
No comment.
Is that because you don’t know or don’t want to say?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on March 29, 2019, 08:29:00 AM
I can quite understand why the courts would reject it as evidence, but if you ever come across proof that my East End of Glasgow human intuition is proved to be wrong, you be sure to let me know. I'll repeat it as many times as you like, it makes no difference to me, innocent parents do not wash their missing child's favorite soft toys. Especially after just around the time they learn a cadaver dog is on the way  8(0(*

Could we have a few In My Opinions, please.  Otherwise I shall be forced to add them myself, which I don't like doing.

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on March 29, 2019, 08:40:50 AM
Can you give me any other examples of innocent parents washing their children's favorite soft toy when they learn a cadaver dog is on the way. That would prove it's an opinion and not a fact. If you feel like adding imo that's fine with me.

Your request is ridiculous.

Persisting in stating opinion as fact will ultimately result in warning point.  And I don't like doing that either.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on March 29, 2019, 08:42:35 AM
Can you give me any other examples of innocent parents washing their children's favorite soft toy when they learn a cadaver dog is on the way. That would prove it's an opinion and not a fact. If you feel like adding imo that's fine with me.

Could you use your remarkable East End of Glasgow human intuition to respond to my post # 532.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on March 29, 2019, 09:14:59 AM
I'm not prepared to alter my position on this subject without examples, nor do I have any to desire to land a warning, which leaves me with no alternative other than to say.  &^&*%

Such a pity.  You do have things to offer, so long as you obey Forum Rules.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 29, 2019, 09:23:58 AM
I've no idea what he was told but he did say he didn't share their optimism at the time. Possibly Kate & Gerry mistakenly thought PJ had some DNA from a suspect & wanted to match it to specific items in the McCanns' possession - as you would if you were innocent & very little else was being done to find Madeleine.
I wonder why the villa was searched by Eddie before Casa Liliana was?

The dogs alerted in 5A on 31st July. As a result search warrants were issued for the McCann villa and car. The villa search then followed on 2nd August.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on March 29, 2019, 09:35:52 AM
I admitted no such thing, it has enormous worth to me. And it can be challenged OK, the case is being investigated, an abduction apparently. If an alive Madeleine McCann turns up or a nasty old abductor is convicted then that would prove that the missing child's mother washed her missing daughter's soft toy when she learnt a cadaver dog was on the way because it was 'filthy with suntan lotion'.
You've no other demonstrable examples of similar behavior from the parents of a missing child? Isn't that a surprise.
In my opinion it is irresponsible not to wash or otherwise clean children's toys and cuddle blankets on a regular basis.

It is the norm for responsible parents of my mother's generation ... my generation ... my daughter's generation ... to have raised our children in as healthy an environment as possible.  Cleanliness is the key to that.
Snip
...  a great rule of thumb is to wash them as often as you wash your children's bedding at home which is probably once every week or two.
https://www.romper.com/p/how-often-should-you-wash-your-childs-lovey-it-has-to-be-done-sorry-7788891


Madeleine had had her soft toy for nearly four years ... I think it is inconceivable it wasn't washed regularly during that time.

I also think this is one of the more ridiculous criticisms put about to castigate Kate ... Amelie has also been pictured cuddling Madeleine's soft toy ... was her safety and well being to be jeopardised by exposure to germs from dirty soft toys?

You've obviously made yourself the judge of that already so please accept my question as a rhetorical one.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 29, 2019, 10:13:38 AM
I can quite understand why the courts would reject it as evidence, but if you ever come across proof that my East End of Glasgow human intuition is proved to be wrong, you be sure to let me know. I'll repeat it as many times as you like, it makes no difference to me, innocent parents do not wash their missing child's favorite soft toys. Especially after just around the time they learn a cadaver dog is on the way  8(0(*
Cuddle Cat wasn't washed again that day.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on March 29, 2019, 10:30:39 AM
Can you give me any other examples of innocent parents washing their children's favorite soft toy when they learn a cadaver dog is on the way. That would prove it's an opinion and not a fact. If you feel like adding imo that's fine with me.

Surely it was remiss of the police not to hold for forensic testing cuddlecat and anything else which the missing child and possibly an intruder may have come into contact with if it was an abduction?  I can't believe the soft toy wasn't immediately taken away.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on March 29, 2019, 10:58:05 AM
Surely it was remiss of the police not to hold for forensic testing cuddlecat and anything else which the missing child and possibly an intruder may have come into contact with if it was an abduction?  I can't believe the soft toy wasn't immediately taken away.

I think it was remiss of them (particularly to allow the cleaners in but I think it might have been a reflection of the time.

Who had ever heard of "the scent of death" in 2007? and anything else you couldn't actually see.

The Portuguese forensic team did pick up plenty of hair as well as what turned out to be a saliva stain on the bedding so they were thorough enough with anything visible.
If I remember correctly, interesting that saliva gave the same reading as another bodily fluid but nothing (eg blood) was seen allowing samples to be taken anywhere else in the apartment.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 29, 2019, 11:39:37 AM
Does this human intuition only exist in the East End of Glasgow or does it extend to other parts of Glasgow?
Does everyone from the East End of Glasgow possess such human intuition?

It has taken some time to reveal that there is a surprisingly high proportion of posters on this forum who live in Scotland, even in or around the Glasgow area.

I do hope that clan warfare is not about to start.   &%54%
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 29, 2019, 12:39:01 PM
I couldn't agree more that the toy would have been washed over time, I have children myself who had soft toys they were very attached to. But the very idea that I would ever have washed any of those toys 70 days after they went missing at a time I was informed that a cadaver dog was on the way is absolutely  ridiculous. Unless I was trying to hide something, there is no other possible reason that would lead me to wash it. That's not an opinion, that's a fact. I know myself well enough to post that fact. No opinion involved there. I do not believe for a second that innocent parents wash their missing daughter's favorite soft toy 70 days after she goes missing, sun tan lotion or no sun tan lotion. The fact is, that's the way I view it.

Whatever way you and the others view the washing of the toy is your business. The reply's my view on the toy are receiving sounds like I've hit a nerve.
8((()*/

You haven't hit any nerve afaiac... You are, simply posting your opinion that you think is a fact... It may apply to you but everyones different... I don't see it it as any indication of guilt.. Just as not answering the 48 questions... Going jogging... Smiling... Is not an indication of guilt
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 29, 2019, 12:47:56 PM
I have never seen the jogging as an indication of anything other than a coping mechanism for those dealing with trauma. You're putting words in my mouth there little fella.

I'm not putting any words in your mouth I'm commenting on your logic... Taking the washing of the toy as an indication of guilt is pretty poor logic.. Imo
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 29, 2019, 01:11:19 PM
Maybe so but when you can prove my logic is poor then your opinion will become a fact.
I'm sticking with it. I've seen nothing on here to make me question it.

No it's opinion.. Just like your posts, are your opinion
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 29, 2019, 01:21:13 PM
Make your mind up. Is it my logic that's poor iyo opinion or not?
It's a fact the parents of a missing child popped their daughter's favorite soft toy into the washing machine when they learned a cadaver dog was on the way. I've even heard the excuse on here that the toy was washed because it was posing a health hazard. When was the last time anyone you know of was admitted to hospital because of a unwashed soft toy.?  @)(++(*

Your logic is poor because you believe something is true based on the inabilty of others to prove you wrong... That's what's, called a celestial teapot argument... And it's poor logic
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 29, 2019, 01:27:55 PM
The way I see it, my logic about the toy stands up quite well because despite repeated requests for demonstrable examples of similar parental behavior, no one has produced a single demonstrable example.
Scotland Yard have the ability to prove my logic wrong, it remains to be seen if they will.  8(0(*
 

You think your logic stands up well... That's your opinion... I don't... That's my opinion
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 29, 2019, 01:29:29 PM
Could you do a poll perhaps to find out how many of these posters from the Glasgow area would wash their missing child's favorite soft toy after 70 days? The results would maybe support my point.

I discussed your point with my beloved about an hour ago.  It was about our neighbours, Karen and Don, and it is definitely not a missing child case.

What happened was simple, but tragic.  Don was diagnosed with cancer, and passed away very shortly afterwards.  Karen kept his clothes and photos on display to remind her of him.  She fell into depression.  It was only when she got rid of, or packed away, every memento of Don that Karen was able to get on with her own life again.

She was remarried, and the last we heard from her, a long time ago, was was that she and her new husband had moved to Hawaii.

In direct response to your proposition, I put it to my beloved.  She was born in Edinburgh, but insists she is Italian.  She was 50-50 on whether to wash Cuddle Cat or not.

My dog's toys and bedding get washed once per week.  We don't have young children with us 24/7, so it's not to protect them or us.  Here, we look after our dogs.

Did the McCanns have a dog?    *%87
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 29, 2019, 01:38:35 PM
Surely it was remiss of the police not to hold for forensic testing cuddlecat and anything else which the missing child and possibly an intruder may have come into contact with if it was an abduction?  I can't believe the soft toy wasn't immediately taken away.

The first PJ officer's photos showed CC and the pink blanket on the bed. The blanket was given to the dog handlers at around 2.30 am on 4th. I assume that CC was taken by the McCanns when they left the apartment because it was no longer on the bed when the next forensic team took their photos on the afternoon of 4th. So the PJ had a very small window of opportunity to take CC.

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_PHOTO_REPORT.htm
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_FORENSIC_4_5_7.htm
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on March 29, 2019, 02:04:32 PM
Make your mind up. Is it my logic that's poor iyo opinion or not?
It's a fact the parents of a missing child popped their daughter's favorite soft toy into the washing machine when they learned a cadaver dog was on the way. I've even heard the excuse on here that the toy was washed because it was posing a health hazard. When was the last time anyone you know of was admitted to hospital because of a unwashed soft toy.?  @)(++(*

A quick Google search of "Can  soft toys carry any diseases" has quite dreadful statistics of the illnesses which can be spread by unwashed soft toys.
Certainly when my grandchildren were young, their mums frequently washed their soft toys.
I suppose it depends on the differing standards of hygiene that are practised..
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 29, 2019, 02:12:23 PM
It stands up even better if one chooses to consider the facts.
"Can you confirm if the signal given regarding the stuffed toy corresponds to a concrete alert of detection of a cadaver, or a mere trick played by the dog''
The dogs were not taught any 'tricks'. EVRD 'signalled' the toy, which at my request was retained by the Judicial Police for future forensic analysis. I have no knowledge of the results of any forensic analysis on the toy.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm
Today I washed the Cuddle Cat (Madeleine's favourite soft toy and a constant comfort to heartbroken Kate). I was hoping not to have to do it until Madeleine returns, but it was now quite dirty and smelly, unfortunately without the smell of Madeleine on it. XX

Oh dearie dearie me!
You might well view my logic as weak, but it's logic that Scotland Yard will have to prove wrong nevertheless.

I think your logic is getting worse.... SY won't be interested in your logic
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on March 29, 2019, 02:18:49 PM
I expect children's soft toys are being washed as we speak up and down the country but I refuse point blank to accept that a single one of those will belong to a missing child.

And no doubt that particular missing chld had many other soft toys, the smell of which would not have become an unfamiliar dirty smell.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on March 29, 2019, 02:20:30 PM
It stands up even better if one chooses to consider the facts.
"Can you confirm if the signal given regarding the stuffed toy corresponds to a concrete alert of detection of a cadaver, or a mere trick played by the dog''
The dogs were not taught any 'tricks'. EVRD 'signalled' the toy, which at my request was retained by the Judicial Police for future forensic analysis. I have no knowledge of the results of any forensic analysis on the toy.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm
Today I washed the Cuddle Cat (Madeleine's favourite soft toy and a constant comfort to heartbroken Kate). I was hoping not to have to do it until Madeleine returns, but it was now quite dirty and smelly, unfortunately without the smell of Madeleine on it. XX

Oh dearie dearie me!
You might well view my logic as weak, but it's logic that Scotland Yard will have to prove wrong nevertheless.

Why would Scotland Yard have to prove you wrong?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 29, 2019, 02:25:34 PM
Can you think of another way it will be proven wrong?

The question is why does anyone have to prove you wrong
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 29, 2019, 02:35:18 PM
The question can be that if you like, but the one the public are paying to answer is what happened to Madeleine McCann? Only by answering that will there be any chance of proving me wrong - simples.  8(0(*

I don't think anyones interested in proving you wrong..
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 29, 2019, 02:48:47 PM
Interested? Who asked anyone to be interested in proving me anything?
I didn't ask anyone to be interested in anything. You seem to have taken an interest all by yourself.  ^*&&
No... Im just here for the craic...I enjoy an argument
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 29, 2019, 04:24:03 PM
Right back to the podcasts
Mark Saunokonoko asks the two questions; Why did the McCanns withhold the efits of Madeleine's possible abductor for almost a year and why did the McCanns and the police withhold them for a further four years?
 

Once upon a time, according to a source......the fund wanted to continue to pursue information about the man seen by Tanner, and it would have been too expensive to investigate both sightings in full — so the Smith E-Fits were not publicised.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 29, 2019, 05:03:53 PM
Did this source happen to provide any information about where they got the funds to promote the Posh Spice lookalike E-Fit.? They've always got their priorities all wrong IMO.

Sorry, I can't help you with that. But I'd imagine that lawyers & spokesmen, although expensive, should always take  priority for innocent parents of abducted children.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 29, 2019, 05:07:41 PM
Make your mind up. Is it my logic that's poor iyo opinion or not?
It's a fact the parents of a missing child popped their daughter's favorite soft toy into the washing machine when they learned a cadaver dog was on the way. I've even heard the excuse on here that the toy was washed because it was posing a health hazard. When was the last time anyone you know of was admitted to hospital because of a unwashed soft toy.?  @)(++(*
Your post is factually incorrect.  Repeat that claim again and your post will be deleted.  Prove your claim "It's a fact the parents of a missing child popped their daughter's favorite soft toy into the washing machine when they learned a cadaver dog was on the way"
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on March 29, 2019, 05:33:30 PM
Your post is factually incorrect.  Repeat that claim again and your post will be deleted.  Prove your claim "It's a fact the parents of a missing child popped their daughter's favorite soft toy into the washing machine when they learned a cadaver dog was on the way"

You are absolutely correct, Rob.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 29, 2019, 05:35:48 PM
I admitted no such thing, it has enormous worth to me. And it can be challenged OK, the case is being investigated, an abduction apparently. If an alive Madeleine McCann turns up or a nasty old abductor is convicted then that would prove that the missing child's mother washed her missing daughter's soft toy when she learnt a cadaver dog was on the way because it was 'filthy with suntan lotion'.
You've no other demonstrable examples of similar behavior from the parents of a missing child? Isn't that a surprise.
yes you did.  You said:
“I have no problem whatsoever accepting the fact that my claim has no basis in a court room”
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 29, 2019, 05:58:10 PM
I couldn't agree more that the toy would have been washed over time, I have children myself who had soft toys they were very attached to. But the very idea that I would ever have washed any of those toys 70 days after they went missing at a time I was informed that a cadaver dog was on the way is absolutely  ridiculous. Unless I was trying to hide something, there is no other possible reason that would lead me to wash it. That's not an opinion, that's a fact. I know myself well enough to post that fact. No opinion involved there. I do not believe for a second that innocent parents wash their missing daughter's favorite soft toy 70 days after she goes missing, sun tan lotion or no sun tan lotion. The fact is, that's the way I view it.

Whatever way you and the others view the washing of the toy is your business. The reply's my view on the toy are receiving sounds like I've hit a nerve.
8((()*/
What if the soft toy stank of shit, would you still not wash it?  What if one of your other kids vomited on it, would you still  not wash it?  What if it got slobbered on by the dog, or covered in cat hairs that made you sneeze, would you still not wash it?  According to you there is no possible reason for you to wash it so one must assume that in the circumstances I have described you would still not wash the soft toy.  This therefore proves that you must be the most innocent parent that ever lived!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 29, 2019, 06:02:44 PM
I don't understand what that has to do with parents of a missing child washing their daughter's favorite soft  toy as soon as they find out a cadaver dog is on the way. I know there are those who claim they find that perfectly normal parental behavior, are you in the group that share that view? I agree in hindsight it was perhaps a mistake not to test the toy but every other bit of evidence had been tampered with, what is it that makes you believe the toy would have been any different?
Could we have a cite please for washing the soft toy as soon as they find out a cadaver dog was on the way please?  I assume this is in the files?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 29, 2019, 07:17:39 PM
Unless you know what Gerry was talking to Stuart Prior about between July 3rd and July 19th you have no idea if my post is factually correct or not. And do you know what they were talking about? If you want to delete my post, you're too late, I done it for you.
As you suggest it is possible to be informed of planned use of cadaver dogs.  I don't know what was discussed.

From memory Kate admits to washing Cuddle Cat 12 days  prior to the day the PJ examine the villa (was that 4th August?)
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 29, 2019, 07:23:29 PM
As you suggest it is possible to be informed of planned use of cadaver dogs.  I don't know what was discussed.

From memory Kate admits to washing Cuddle Cat 12 days  prior to the day the PJ examine the villa (was that 4th August?)
I wonder why she freely admitted that seeing as how it’s virtually cast iron proof of guilt (according to Cheeky).
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 29, 2019, 07:29:58 PM
You don't know what Gerry and Stuart Prior discussed then? Which means you don't know if my statement was factually incorrect. Fair enough. I deleted anyway.

Do you seriously think it's a good idea to rely on a former suspect who has never been cleared of involvement in her daughter's disappearance for reliable information? You'll forgive me if I give that idea a miss.
You’re relying on her words regarding washing cuddlecat, any reason for that?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 29, 2019, 07:57:36 PM
You don't know what Gerry and Stuart Prior discussed then? Which means you don't know if my statement was factually incorrect. Fair enough. I deleted anyway.

Do you seriously think it's a good idea to rely on a former suspect who has never been cleared of involvement in her daughter's disappearance for reliable information? You'll forgive me if I give that idea a miss.
But isn't the more serious issue in your statement is that the British police were alerting the McCanns to lines of inquiry that the PJ were about to do?
Do you know what was discussed between Stuart Prior and the McCanns?

The Dates of the washing did not clash with the dates you used.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 29, 2019, 08:01:59 PM
The reason for that imo, is the good old 'it's was one of these tricky situations where we didn't seem to have a choice'. Remember that old chestnut? It would have looked even more suspicious if the cameras picked up it had been washed and they had said nothing imo. But because it had sun tan lotion on it poor old Kate decided to wash every last trace of her abducted daughter from her favorite soft toy, because.... wait for it... it had got sun tan lotion on it.

I'm not buying it. It's that simple. I'll leave you and the whooshing curtain theory to prove me wrong.  8(0(*
Your last sentence is pure goading as I have repeatedly asked you to tell me what you mean by it and you refuse to say.  Your first point is ludicrous IMO.  You think the cameras would be able to discern Cuddlecat had been washed?  Then rather than tell the world she’d wash it, she could have covered it in suntan lotion and snot and dirt after washing it, problem solved and no one would have been any the wiser.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 29, 2019, 08:04:19 PM
You don't know what Gerry and Stuart Prior discussed then? Which means you don't know if my statement was factually incorrect. Fair enough. I deleted anyway.

Do you seriously think it's a good idea to rely on a former suspect who has never been cleared of involvement in her daughter's disappearance for reliable information? You'll forgive me if I give that idea a miss.
I understood that you meant Kate washed Cuddle Cat that day of the search.  I understand there were clothes in the washing machine that day.  But finding clothes in a washing machine is rather common in fact.

But isn't the more serious issue in your statement is that the British police were alerting the McCanns to lines of inquiry that the PJ were about to do?
Do you know what was discussed between Stuart Prior and the McCanns?

The Dates of the washing did not clash with the dates you used.
"Unless you know what Gerry was talking to Stuart Prior about between July 3rd and July 19th"   were the dates you used.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 29, 2019, 08:12:50 PM
I was looking through some old reports about Cuddle Cat, as I seem to remember a claim that CC had been placed out of reach, this being one reason Kate knew it was an abduction & Maddie hadn't left the bed of her own volition...

I found this and it made me chuckle...

By Lori Campbell in Praia da Luz
Published: 12/08/2007
 
Missing Madeleine McCann's favourite pink Cuddle Cat toy was taken from her arms as she slept and placed beyond her reach by her kidnapper. That is why police are certain Madeleine was snatched while she was asleep - and was NOT killed or injured in the holiday apartment.
 
When her mum Kate, 38, tucked Madeleine into bed, the four-year-old was cuddling the toy - but it was later found placed on a ledge that Madeleine could not have reached.
 
There is also further "concrete evidence" that Madeleine was still ALIVE when she left the holiday apartment. Her kidnapper had a window of just five minutes to strike - from when dad Gerry last checked on the children until family friend Jane Tanner saw a man carrying away a child she is sure was Madeleine wrapped in a blanket.

.....

Concrete evidence  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 29, 2019, 08:17:56 PM
You know what I think, it's clearly explained above, if you don't like it that's just too bad imo. My opinion will never change unless the first 90 seconds of this gets verified in a court of law.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPS0eyLID1A&t=335s
That's ludicrous imo. How you view it, is entirely up to you. It's a free country.
Did you post the correct link?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 29, 2019, 08:21:38 PM
What date did Kate wash the toy?
As I said from memory 12 days before the villa was examined.  So some time after 19th July.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 29, 2019, 08:23:51 PM


Kate washed the Cuddle Cat five days after Madeleine went missing saying it was smeared with sand and sun cream.

Gerry's sister Philomena said it was cleaned again two months ago because it was filthy after being carried around.

A former Scotland Yard detective said: "It's the last thing I'd expect a mother who is devastated at losing her child to do."

*Sunday Mirror report, 13 September 2007
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 29, 2019, 08:27:14 PM


Jon Corner godfather of one of the McCanns children said ‘The Cuddle Cat was reeking with Madeleines DNA . That easily explains why DNA has been found in the hire car and on clothing that Kate bought after Madeleine disappeared’.

*Telegraph Sept 8th 2007
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 29, 2019, 08:31:32 PM
You know what I think, it's clearly explained above, if you don't like it that's just too bad imo. My opinion will never change unless the first 90 seconds of this gets verified in a court of law.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPS0eyLID1A&t=62s
That's ludicrous imo. How you view it, is entirely up to you. It's a free country.
”My opinion will never change”.  Exactly. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on March 29, 2019, 08:32:17 PM

Jon Corner godfather of one of the McCanns children said ‘The Cuddle Cat was reeking with Madeleines DNA . That easily explains why DNA has been found in the hire car and on clothing that Kate bought after Madeleine disappeared’.

*Telegraph Sept 8th 2007

This is Jon Corner, well respected and renowned forensic scientist ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 29, 2019, 08:33:15 PM
If you had read the thread you would have noticed Misty posted Kate's diary for the 12th July were she wrote she washed it, so I'd suggest before you go warning others about the factual accuracy of their comments, you check the factual accuracy of your own. I deleted mine btw.
Maybe that is where the number "12" comes into my memory.  It could be the 12th July  rather than 12 days before the search at the villa.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 29, 2019, 08:36:28 PM
Never is a long time in the Madeleine McCann affair, but good for you and your opinion.  8((()*/
I was quoting you.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 29, 2019, 08:40:02 PM
One of my favourite excuses, from unnamed sources, was Kate coming into contact with several dead bodies during her work as a G.P  @)(++(*


A source close to the McCanns' solicitors said the smell on Mrs McCann could be explained by being in contact with corpses while working as a GP.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1563381/Madeleine-McCanns-parents-look-to-US-sniffer-dog-case.html
.....

The family GP has insisted she came into contact with at least SIX dead bodies before going on holiday with her husband and three children.

The Sun 05 September 2008
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 29, 2019, 08:43:17 PM
You weren't quoting me. Go read it again.
I was quoting you, your opinion will never change unless your impossible demands are met, ergo your opinion will never change.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 29, 2019, 09:05:51 PM
Oh I see, it's changed from "my opinion will never change" to "my opinion will never change unless." Not quite the same thing, but you know that.
After watching Kate's performance you think it would be "impossible" to verify that account of events in a court of law. I think there are a large number of people who would agree with that assessment... I didn't think you'd be one.  8(0(*
Why is that?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 29, 2019, 10:03:25 PM
I just never had you down as one for viewing Kate's story as being impossible to ever verify. But there you go, you think my demands are impossible. I'd have thought had an abductor left the window open and the curtains whooshing, it would have been possible to verify, but you reckon it's impossible.
Ah well! What can I say that you,ve not said already?  8(0(*
You seem somewhat determined to include the phrase “whooshing curtains “ in as many of your posts to me as you possibly can.  Is there a reason for that?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on March 29, 2019, 10:15:15 PM
One of my favourite excuses, from unnamed sources, was Kate coming into contact with several dead bodies during her work as a G.P  @)(++(*


A source close to the McCanns' solicitors said the smell on Mrs McCann could be explained by being in contact with corpses while working as a GP.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1563381/Madeleine-McCanns-parents-look-to-US-sniffer-dog-case.html
.....

The family GP has insisted she came into contact with at least SIX dead bodies before going on holiday with her husband and three children.

The Sun 05 September 2008

I think that unnamed source is currently on trial in Cascais for kidnapping, armed robbery, illegal computer access & various other offences.....
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 29, 2019, 10:18:00 PM
I think that unnamed source is currently on trial in Cascais for kidnapping, armed robbery, illegal computer access & various other offences.....

It’s a wonder the parents didn’t employ him. He seems to have all the credentials to be one of their PIs.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 29, 2019, 10:25:34 PM
Not particularly and it won't only be you to whom I use the term because imo that's what's the McCanns have been promoting for the last 12 years, a whooshing curtain theory. A theory that I don't view as very realistic IMHO, given the facts. But if it really did occur, I hold the opinion that it must be possible to prove it. No theory is ever accepted without overwhelming evidence to support it. If the McCanns and their very expensive team expect people to treat their theory any differently, then they are not the sharpest tools in the box imo.
For the third time of asking what is the whooshing curtain theory?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 29, 2019, 10:30:28 PM
For the first time, I'm refusing to tell you. I've already told you twice.
kindly provide the post number then.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 29, 2019, 10:40:31 PM
You think I'm trawling through the pages to get you post numbers for links I've already provided?  *%87#
No chance, I'm off to bed, do it yourself. Cobbler for me tomorrow.

I’m not interested in links I just want you to explain what whooshing curtain theorists are and what the whooshing curtain theory is, because if you’re going to accuse me of being an advocate of this theory I do at least think I am owed some sort of explanation as to what t is I am supposedly advocating.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 29, 2019, 10:53:11 PM

At a guess I'd say he means, no whooshing curtains = no abduction, at least not in the manner the McCann's insist on.


'Police investigations by British and Portuguese detectives are believed to be re-visiting the theory the three-year-old left their Algarve apartment of her own accord before she disappeared'


The British and Portuguese efforts to find out what happened to the toddler are being carried out separately - but the two are believed to have met to discuss the theory she woke up and wandered off.

A spokesman for Portugal's Attorney General's Office refused to comment, but a well-placed source said: 'The heads of the two police investigations are corresponding with each other directly and have combined their efforts without resorting to rogatory letters like before.

'A meeting took place recently at the HQ of the General Attorney's Office in Portugal, which was attended by the prosecutor from Portimao who is in charge of the Portuguese inquiry.

'One of the lines of investigation that continues to be pursued is that the child could have walked out of the holiday flat herself.'


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6429815/Gerry-Kate-McCann-slam-claims-Madeleine-walked-aparment-says-kidnapped.html
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 29, 2019, 10:58:36 PM
At a guess I'd say he means, no whooshing curtains = no abduction, at least not in the manner the McCann's insist on.


'Police investigations by British and Portuguese detectives are believed to be re-visiting the theory the three-year-old left their Algarve apartment of her own accord before she disappeared'


The British and Portuguese efforts to find out what happened to the toddler are being carried out separately - but the two are believed to have met to discuss the theory she woke up and wandered off.

A spokesman for Portugal's Attorney General's Office refused to comment, but a well-placed source said: 'The heads of the two police investigations are corresponding with each other directly and have combined their efforts without resorting to rogatory letters like before.

'A meeting took place recently at the HQ of the General Attorney's Office in Portugal, which was attended by the prosecutor from Portimao who is in charge of the Portuguese inquiry.

'One of the lines of investigation that continues to be pursued is that the child could have walked out of the holiday flat herself.'


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6429815/Gerry-Kate-McCann-slam-claims-Madeleine-walked-aparment-says-kidnapped.html
So a whooshing curtain theorist is the same as an abduction theorist?  Well why didn’t she just say that in the first place!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 29, 2019, 10:59:22 PM
Woke & wandered should simply not be an option, if the police believe the McCann's were telling the truth about the open window & shutters.

I believe Cheeky Monkey subscribes to the type of crime unknown theory, as opposed to the whooshing curtains doctrine.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 29, 2019, 11:01:29 PM
Woke & wandered should simply not be an option, if the police believe the McCann's were telling the truth about the open window & shutters.

I believe Cheeky Monkey subscribes to the type of crime unknown theory, as opposed to the whooshing curtains doctrine.
IMO a crime unknown theory is not a theory at all, simply a statement of fact.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 29, 2019, 11:04:36 PM


I wasn't using the forum or following the news at the time of this publication.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6429815/Gerry-Kate-McCann-slam-claims-Madeleine-walked-aparment-says-kidnapped.html

I find it interesting that, if true, the police are open to casting doubt on the not suspects claims.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 29, 2019, 11:09:38 PM

I wasn't using the forum or following the news at the time of this publication.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6429815/Gerry-Kate-McCann-slam-claims-Madeleine-walked-aparment-says-kidnapped.html

I find it interesting that, if true, the police are open to casting doubt on the not suspects claims.
Oh yeah, this was the news report that had some people on here so excited because they thought it meant something big was about to happen.  But then nothing did.   @)(++(*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 29, 2019, 11:13:31 PM
Oh yeah, this was the news report that had some people on here so excited because they thought it meant something big was about to happen.  But then nothing did.   @)(++(*

Nothing much is happening at all with SY, if the Portugal Resident is to be believed.

Grange aren't even answering the phone.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 29, 2019, 11:15:43 PM
Nothing much is happening at all with SY, if the Portugal Resident is to be believed.

Grange aren't even answering the phone.
Not to trouble makers and trolls, no probably not.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 29, 2019, 11:18:24 PM
Not to trouble makers and trolls, no probably not.

Mark Unpronounceable is a trouble making troll?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 29, 2019, 11:21:01 PM
Mark Unpronounceable is a trouble making troll?
Jill Havern is, IMO, Mark Thingy clearly has an agenda he is pushing too, sensationalist tripe for financial gain.  Does that make him worth the time of day as far as the police are concerned? 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 29, 2019, 11:25:23 PM
Jill Havern is, IMO, Mark Thingy clearly has an agenda he is pushing too, sensationalist tripe for financial gain.  Does that make him worth the time of day as far as the police are concerned?

I thought he was just relaying an offer from that DNA scientist chap to retest the DNA thingy stuff.
That doesn't seem very trollie to me.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 29, 2019, 11:43:44 PM
I thought he was just relaying an offer from that DNA scientist chap to retest the DNA thingy stuff.
That doesn't seem very trollie to me.

Ringing Grange & saying the e-fits are Gerry, that would be trolling, but also potentially true.
Why isn’t the DNA chappy able to make his own phone call to tbe Met?  After all he has apparently worked with them before.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 29, 2019, 11:49:19 PM
Why isn’t the DNA chappy able to make his own phone call to tbe Met?  After all he has apparently worked with them before.

I've no idea, maybe he has tried but he too got the answering machine. Who knows? Grange do I suppose. But they are busy doing something or other. All 4 of them.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 30, 2019, 12:27:55 AM


That's enough wummery for one night.

Nighty night all.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 30, 2019, 12:40:00 AM
Has anyone heard whether OG got their Ł300,000 ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on March 30, 2019, 06:02:35 AM
Has anyone heard whether OG got their Ł300,000 ?
Does any one care?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on March 30, 2019, 06:32:09 AM
I think that unnamed source is currently on trial in Cascais for kidnapping, armed robbery, illegal computer access & various other offences.....

He is.  The one that looks like one of The Smith's Efits
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 30, 2019, 08:26:42 AM
Mark Unpronounceable is a trouble making troll?

Anyone who asks questions is a troublemaking troll according to some. They believe that everything that is questioned has been sorted out by Operation Grange and filed away tied up with pretty ribbons. I do wonder who moved that bedroom door between 8.30 and 9pm and 9pn and 9.30pm though. According to Operation Grange no-one entered 5A with evil intent until after 9.30pm.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on March 30, 2019, 08:28:42 AM
Anyone who asks questions is a troublemaking troll according to some. They believe that everything that is questioned has been sorted out by Operation Grange and filed away tied up with pretty ribbons. I do wonder who moved that bedroom door between 8.30 and 9pm and 9pn and 9.30pm though. According to Operation Grange no-one entered 5A with evil intent until after 9.30pm.

I think the abductor was already in 5a when Gerry checked at 9pm ish.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on March 30, 2019, 08:52:03 AM
Anyone who asks questions is a troublemaking troll according to some. They believe that everything that is questioned has been sorted out by Operation Grange and filed away tied up with pretty ribbons. I do wonder who moved that bedroom door between 8.30 and 9pm and 9pn and 9.30pm though. According to Operation Grange no-one entered 5A with evil intent until after 9.30pm.

Is it normal behaviour for thousands of people to keep up an interminable campaign of asking the same questions for twelve years ... ??
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on March 30, 2019, 09:15:04 AM
I think the abductor was already in 5a when Gerry checked at 9pm ish.

One trouble with that,what abductor? wheres it been established there was one?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on March 30, 2019, 09:22:14 AM
One trouble with that,what abductor? wheres it been established there was one?
The Judicial police for example ...
Snip
30 October 2013 Correio da Manhă report that the PJ has strong evidence to believe that Madeleine's abductor was a former employee of the Ocean Club who died in 2009 in a tractor accident. They claim this was the strongest new lead presented to state prosecutors - by the PJ team working in Porto - which led to the investigation being reopened.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id467.htm
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on March 30, 2019, 09:22:42 AM
One trouble with that,what abductor? wheres it been established there was one?

It hasn't.  But then neither has The McCann's involvement.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 30, 2019, 09:55:35 AM
Is it normal behaviour for thousands of people to keep up an interminable campaign of asking the same questions for twelve years ... ??

Thank you for confirming what I posted by suggesting my behaviour is abnormal. At least you have admitted that there are thousands of people asking questions.

The question didn't arise until late in 2013, so no-one has been asking it for 12 years.

Do you think Op Grange realised they were triggering questions rather than providing answers when they found Crecheman? How do you think they and the parents would answer that question?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on March 30, 2019, 10:32:53 AM
Thank you for confirming what I posted by suggesting my behaviour is abnormal. At least you have admitted that there are thousands of people asking questions.

The question didn't arise until late in 2013, so no-one has been asking it for 12 years.

Do you think Op Grange realised they were triggering questions rather than providing answers when they found Crecheman? How do you think they and the parents would answer that question?

The Met officers attached to Operation Grange are I hope following procedures and following evidence which is why they and not the investigators of May 2007 were successful in finding a man who had been 'hiding in plain sight' from 2007 till 2013.

Neither they nor Madeleine's parents owe any explanation to members of the public while there is an active investigation in progress regarding Madeleine's disappearance and why it is expected that they should is a question I would ask.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on March 30, 2019, 10:46:20 AM
The Judicial police for example ...
Snip
30 October 2013 Correio da Manhă report that the PJ has strong evidence to believe that Madeleine's abductor was a former employee of the Ocean Club who died in 2009 in a tractor accident. They claim this was the strongest new lead presented to state prosecutors - by the PJ team working in Porto - which led to the investigation being reopened.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id467.htm

Pedro Do Carmo May 2017: in answer to the question posed by Martin Brunt,"do you accept the girl was abducted" answered we don't know what happened and have to prepared for other scenarios.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 30, 2019, 11:41:32 AM
The Met officers attached to Operation Grange are I hope following procedures and following evidence which is why they and not the investigators of May 2007 were successful in finding a man who had been 'hiding in plain sight' from 2007 till 2013.

Neither they nor Madeleine's parents owe any explanation to members of the public while there is an active investigation in progress regarding Madeleine's disappearance and why it is expected that they should is a question I would ask.

You hope they're following procedures and evidence? That suggests you're not completely sure. I didn't say anyone owed anyone an expplanation, I asked for your opinion about what the explanation might be.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on March 30, 2019, 11:46:55 AM
You hope they're following procedures and evidence? That suggests you're not completely sure. I didn't say anyone owed anyone an expplanation, I asked for your opinion about what the explanation might be.
I am sure they are following procedures part of which is following the evidence.  Particularly that from 2007 which they had to play 'catch-up' with ... for example, the man carrying his daughter home.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 30, 2019, 12:38:21 PM
I am sure they are following procedures part of which is following the evidence.  Particularly that from 2007 which they had to play 'catch-up' with ... for example, the man carrying his daughter home.

In my opinion they began with a preconception. That isn't supposed ro be how cases begin. In my opinion that led them to following certain evidence and ignoring ither evidence. When investigators do that they are seldom successful imo.

I assune you are unable to answer my question. I'm not surprised because I can't imagine how it can be answered in a sarisfactory manner either.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 30, 2019, 12:44:13 PM
In my opinion they began with a preconception. That isn't supposed ro be how cases begin. In my opinion that led them to following certain evidence and ignoring ither evidence. When investigators do that they are seldom successful imo.

I assune you are unable to answer my question. I'm not surprised because I can't imagine how it can be answered in a sarisfactory manner either.

just your opinion....i dont think they started with any preconception...they discounted parental involvement based on the evidence....i think that you place to much reliance on the initial statements fr which there is evidence they were not accurately recorded
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on March 30, 2019, 01:33:09 PM
In my opinion they began with a preconception. That isn't supposed ro be how cases begin. In my opinion that led them to following certain evidence and ignoring ither evidence. When investigators do that they are seldom successful imo.

I assune you are unable to answer my question. I'm not surprised because I can't imagine how it can be answered in a sarisfactory manner either.
Your opinion is based on nothing but your opinion.  You have absolutely no idea what procedures were carried out by the police and which were not.
No investigation is assured of success ... so in your opinion, we just shouldn't bother?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 30, 2019, 01:39:08 PM
just your opinion....i dont think they started with any preconception...they discounted parental involvement based on the evidence....i think that you place to much reliance on the initial statements fr which there is evidence they were not accurately recorded

My opinion is based on the evidence of the remit and Mark Rowley's admission that they assuned the PJ had 'dealt with' the question of parental involvement,

As to the moving door;

What we do now believe is that the abductor had very probably been into the room before Gerry’s check. {madeleine}
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 30, 2019, 02:01:36 PM
My opinion is based on the evidence of the remit and Mark Rowley's admission that they assuned the PJ had 'dealt with' the question of parental involvement,

As to the moving door;

What we do now believe is that the abductor had very probably been into the room before Gerry’s check. {madeleine}

Cite for assumed... Otherwise stick to the facts... Rowley never said that... Posting such absolute tripe should not be allowed
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 30, 2019, 03:35:18 PM
Cite for assumed... Otherwise stick to the facts... Rowley never said that... Posting such absolute tripe should not be allowed

Is accusing people of posting absolute tripe allowed? In my opinion there are some moderators who would delete my post if I accused others of doing that. Quite right too, it's abusive imo. 

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 30, 2019, 03:38:56 PM
Is accusing people of posting absolute tripe allowed? In my opinion there are some moderators who would delete my post if I accused others of doing that. Quite right too, it's abusive imo.

Provide a cite and I will apologise and remove it....I think the truthfulness of posts is far, more important
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 30, 2019, 03:58:56 PM
Is accusing people of posting absolute tripe allowed? In my opinion there are some moderators who would delete my post if I accused others of doing that. Quite right too, it's abusive imo.

You obviously  can't provide a cite because your claim is untrue
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on March 30, 2019, 04:04:18 PM
What Rowley actually said re: the parents.

Quote
MR: Two points to that, firstly the involvement of the parents, that was dealt with at the time by the
original investigation by the Portuguese. We had a look at all the material and we are happy that was
all dealt with and there is no reason whatsoever to reopen that or start rumours that was a line of
investigation.

Og have never investigated the parents.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 30, 2019, 04:07:30 PM
What Rowley actually said re: the parents.

Og have never investigated the parents.

They said they looked at all the material.. That's investigating to me.. Not assuming
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on March 30, 2019, 04:33:04 PM
What Rowley actually said re: the parents.

Og have never investigated the parents.

British police were active and on the ground throughout the investigation in 2007.  A team from Ceop - the child exploitation and online protection agency were sent out and were active.
Snip
Appeal for holiday snaps to help track Madeleine's abductor
· Specialist British officers join hunt as inquiry wanes
· Photos to be cross-checked with paedophile database
Tue 22 May 2007 23.56 BST
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/may/22/ukcrime.sandralaville

About that time spent by British police on the ground was Jim Gamble Child protection expert who said at a later date that ...

Snip
"he suspected Mr McCann and wife Kate 'from the very outset' – and even tried to get the father to 'do the right thing' and confess.

But the former head of the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre said he is now convinced the couple were innocent and devastated over their daughter.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6815151/Documentary-reveals-senior-police-officer-suspected-Madeleine-McCanns-father-disappearance.html

When Scotland Yard took on the review of Madeleine's case they would have access to the debriefings of the many British officers who had been active on the ground in Portugal.

The notion that Scotland Yard had no dialogue with Kate and Gerry at this time is nothing short of risible;  they are experts in their field ... I'm no expert, but in a similar situation I would want to hear certain information from the horse's mouth which I think would be nothing less than demanded by protocol and procedure.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on March 30, 2019, 05:16:49 PM
Is accusing people of posting absolute tripe allowed? In my opinion there are some moderators who would delete my post if I accused others of doing that. Quite right too, it's abusive imo.

Some of us try to be objective.  Don't knock it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on March 30, 2019, 05:39:00 PM
I wonder what they made of this when they were looking at all the material. Are we allowed to assume they looked at the block booking for the tapas when conducting their thorough review of the original investigation?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFL6Jown0LE

What?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 30, 2019, 05:43:23 PM
I wonder what they made of this when they were looking at all the material. Are we allowed to assume they looked at the block booking for the tapas when conducting their thorough review of the original investigation?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFL6Jown0LE

You can assume whatever you like but a poster cannot claim as a fact that Rowley assumed anything
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 30, 2019, 05:49:09 PM
Thank you for confirming what I posted by suggesting my behaviour is abnormal. At least you have admitted that there are thousands of people asking questions.

The question didn't arise until late in 2013, so no-one has been asking it for 12 years.

Do you think Op Grange realised they were triggering questions rather than providing answers when they found Crecheman? How do you think they and the parents would answer that question?
LOL only six years then.  That’s normal.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 30, 2019, 06:20:09 PM
Is there any other assumption I can make other than they were both telling blatant lies about they didn't think they were going to get into the tapas? I just don't see any way they could have possibly thought they weren't going to get in, when they knew the tapas was block booked for the entire week, including the 3rd. Any suggestions?

They obviously thought that the public would never see the files.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 30, 2019, 06:32:23 PM
That's certainly one sensible suggestion imo, I wonder if there will be any others.
Why is it sensible exactly?  Please explain the logic.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 30, 2019, 06:40:23 PM
Because it's the only logical one I can think of. Can your logic provide a more sensible suggestion?
I'd love to listen to it.
Not until you explain what is logical about it first.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 30, 2019, 06:43:21 PM
Because I just don't see any way they could have possibly thought they weren't going to get in, when they knew the tapas was block booked for the entire week, including the 3rd.
Your turn.
That’s not what you claimed was sensible.   Read back.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 30, 2019, 06:45:06 PM
&^&*%   &^&*%
&^&*% &^&*%
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 30, 2019, 06:50:36 PM
I wonder what they made of this when they were looking at all the material. Are we allowed to assume they looked at the block booking for the tapas when conducting their thorough review of the original investigation?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFL6Jown0LE

The crying story was as confusing as it could be It started out with the twine crying, then became Madeleine and Sean, then just Madeleine. The parents couldn't imagine when it happened, apparently. They wondered if it was when the children were being put down; well they should know because they put them down. Of course not all that appeared in the PJ files where Op Grange were looking.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 30, 2019, 06:53:50 PM
The crying story was as confusing as it could be It started out with the twine crying, then became Madeleine and Sean, then just Madeleine. The parents couldn't imagine when it happened, apparently. They wondered if it was when the children were being put down; well they should know because they put them down. Of course not all that appeared in the PJ files where Op Grange were looking.
Could we have cites for all of that please.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 30, 2019, 07:16:38 PM
Could we have cites for all of that please.

Madeleine said twins cried
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN.htm
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN.htm
Madeleine said she and Sean cried
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
Madeleine said she cried
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFL6Jown0LE

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on March 30, 2019, 07:23:07 PM
Madeleine said twins cried
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN.htm
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN.htm
Madeleine said she and Sean cried
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
Madeleine said she cried
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFL6Jown0LE

Which was it, do you think?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 30, 2019, 07:25:33 PM
Is accusing people of posting absolute tripe allowed? In my opinion there are some moderators who would delete my post if I accused others of doing that. Quite right too, it's abusive imo.
Calling a post tripe was OK.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 30, 2019, 07:26:19 PM
Madeleine said twins cried
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN.htm
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN.htm
Madeleine said she and Sean cried
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
Madeleine said she cried
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFL6Jown0LE
Could you extract the relevant passages please.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on March 30, 2019, 07:46:26 PM
If they have given three different versions of the one event, that suggests none of them are true imo.

If you want to believe that The Mccanns said all three then that's fine by me.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 30, 2019, 07:53:30 PM
If you want to believe that The Mccanns said all three then that's fine by me.

that certainly is one possibility but in light of all the other evidence not the only or most likely afaiac
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on March 30, 2019, 07:59:30 PM
If there is any reason I shouldn't believe them on this occasion feel free to share it? If we are to consider the evidence of Mrs Fenn it could indicate it was included to mitigate Madeleine crying for 1hr 15 mins on the Tuesday. If I were to pick one of the three it would be Madeleine said she cried for that simple reason.. but as I have demonstrated in one my recent posts, we can't believe a word they say imo. The inability to trust a word they say, damaged the investigation beyond repair. And still does imo.

I have to say that I don't really care.  In My Opinion.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 30, 2019, 08:02:19 PM
Which was it, do you think?

None. I don’t think it happened.

It did make me laugh though when Swann said in the Netflix documentary ( from memory ) what could have made Madeleine cry the night before she disappeared.......) I think waking up in a darkened room with no adults within wailing distance is the most logical answer.

I know everyone has a right to be dense but I’m afraid Swann abuses it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on March 30, 2019, 08:04:46 PM
She looks to have being drawing some comfort from her daughter's smell on the toy until 6 days before she alleges she was informed about the dogs. At which time she decided to subject it to an extensive cleaning process. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UT8yMpj-d80&t=114s

And her daughter's smell was composed of what?
I did ask you in an earlier post if each individual child in a family has a smell only peculiar to that child.
My husband is one of thirteen siblings.
Did they all have a smell individual to themselves.
Or as I did suggest that a child's smell is made up from the combination of the hair shampoo,: soap used in bathing and the laundry powder used?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on March 30, 2019, 08:09:29 PM
Is there any other assumption I can make other than they were both telling blatant lies about they didn't think they were going to get into the tapas? I just don't see any way they could have possibly thought they weren't going to get in, when they knew the tapas was block booked for the entire week, including the 3rd. Any suggestions?
Yet scurrilous lies were repeated in the Portuguese press ... but not a single word about the block booking???  Seems to me you have your fact mixed up with fiction.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on March 30, 2019, 08:13:47 PM
I fail to understand what Kate McCann's contradictory behavior that the video demonstrates imo, regarding the soft toy has to do with any one of your thirteen siblings. Hopefully none of them have been abducted and never will be.

You misread my post and totally failed to answer my question, once again.
I have observed that this is the manner in which you deal with posts which you cannot adequately answer.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on March 30, 2019, 08:18:36 PM
It's your opinion to with it as you see fit Eleanor. I may not agree with your opinion on occasions, but it's one opinion I intend to fully respect. You think everyone is worth the bother Eleanor. That approach deserves everyone's utmost respect imo.  8(0(*

Thank You.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on March 30, 2019, 08:21:48 PM
Are you citing scurrilous lies as a mitigating factor for the blatant lies Kate and Gerry told in that interview?
Are you suggesting there was no block booking?

You are pushing your luck again.  Libel and accusations of lies are not permitted.  Please don't do this again.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on March 30, 2019, 08:22:32 PM
That's certainly one sensible suggestion imo, I wonder if there will be any others.
At that time did they even know or care about the files we have seen on the internet?  I very much doubt it.  Who could ever have guessed Madeleine would not be found and instead written off when the case was archived and everyone but her parents stopped looking for her.
Absolute disgrace I call it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on March 30, 2019, 08:25:59 PM
Because it's the only logical one I can think of. Can your logic provide a more sensible suggestion?
I'd love to listen to it.
I would like an explanation of why the Portuguese in effect closed down the search for a missing child ... pity that disgraceful action doesn't excite your interest as much as getting the knife into her parents does.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on March 30, 2019, 08:29:31 PM
Eleanor they couldn't possibly have thought they weren't going to get into the tapas, they had a block booking. What other term can be allowed to use to describe their actions accurately? I'm being totally sincere with you Eleanor, you have my utmost respect. Correctly so imo.

Then please just do me a favour, and make my life a bit more easy.  Don't accuse anyone of deliberate lies.

Could you do that for me?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on March 30, 2019, 08:33:49 PM
The crying story was as confusing as it could be It started out with the twine crying, then became Madeleine and Sean, then just Madeleine. The parents couldn't imagine when it happened, apparently. They wondered if it was when the children were being put down; well they should know because they put them down. Of course not all that appeared in the PJ files where Op Grange were looking.
Do you think the British police stationed in Portugal didn't file reports at the time and subsequently and wouldn't have provided information making the files redundant except for those instances detailing how not to conduct an investigation.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on March 30, 2019, 08:35:58 PM
Eleanor they couldn't possibly have thought they weren't going to get into the tapas, they had a block booking. What other term can be allowed to use to describe their actions accurately? I'm being totally sincere with you Eleanor, you have my utmost respect. Correctly so imo.

Oh, and by the way, I suspect that someone has been feeding you bull poop.  I am not half as daft as I look.  I am just naturally fair and reasonable.  Up to a point.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 30, 2019, 08:37:13 PM
At that time did they even know or care about the files we have seen on the internet?  I very much doubt it.  Who could ever have guessed Madeleine would not be found and instead written off when the case was archived and everyone but her parents stopped looking for her.
Absolute disgrace I call it.

I’m sure they did care about the files being made public. I can remember them both trying to justify why Madeleine had asked them why they hadn’t come when she cried yet still went out that night and also why Kate didn’t answer the 48 questions put to her.

 I remember an interview with Kate’s mum after they were made arguidos and she said that her daughter and husband where doing everything to help the police and answering every question. I’m sure that’s what she was lead to believe. Imagine her shock when the files were released.

https://youtu.be/wOkpiJ6DEco
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on March 30, 2019, 08:40:31 PM
I’m sure they did care about the files being made public. I can remember them both trying to justify why Madeleine had asked them why they hadn’t come when she cried yet still went out that night and also why Kate didn’t answer the 48 questions put to her.

 I remember an interview with Kate’s mum after they were made arguidos and she said that her daughter and husband where doing everything to help the police and answering every question. I’m sure that’s what she was lead to believe. Imagine her shock when the files were released.

https://youtu.be/wOkpiJ6DEco

Come on Faith, you know that Kate had answered their questions beforehand.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on March 30, 2019, 08:46:42 PM
I view the parents and their friend's decision to refuse to cooperate with the new coordinator as a justifiable factor in closing the investigation. I fail to see why if the parents and their friends couldn't be bothered helping out, why the Portuguese should be any different. SY's lack of results to date indicate to me the Portuguese made the correct call. If certain crucial witnesses imo were willing to clarify certain crucial facts, then I'm certain my opinion would be different. Why would the disgraceful actions in this case excite anyone's interests?
They're never likely to turn me on.

What was The Correct Call?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on March 30, 2019, 08:49:43 PM
If they have given three different versions of the one event, that suggests none of them are true imo.
Some Portuguese cops waited until Paulo Rebelo was safely out of the way in Britain to question witnesses before taking the opportunity to leak that information to the Portuguese press.

Which necessitated Rebelo to cut short his investigative time in England to return to Portugal to plug leaks which could only have come from police sources.

Even at that time there were officers around all to ready to break the law to sabotage an investigation into a missing child to get the boot into her parents.

Absolutely shameful!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on March 30, 2019, 08:55:47 PM
I don't know what I've said the merits that reply. I don't think you've read my post in it's true context.
Anyone who adopts the approach that everyone is worth the bother, can hardly be daft imo. No one's been feeding me anything by the way - I'm famished.

Oh, I did.  But I am truly pleased that you have some respect for me.  Not a lot of people do.  Kindness is so often seen as weakness.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 30, 2019, 08:56:58 PM
I view the parents and their friend's decision to refuse to cooperate with the new coordinator as a justifiable factor in closing the investigation. I fail to see why if the parents and their friends couldn't be bothered helping out, why the Portuguese should be any different. SY's lack of results to date indicate to me the Portuguese made the correct call. If certain crucial witnesses imo were willing to clarify certain crucial facts, then I'm certain my opinion would be different. Why would the disgraceful actions in this case excite anyone's interests?
They're never likely to turn me on.
I view the PJs inability to understand the evidence as the main reason the investigation was closed
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on March 30, 2019, 09:01:40 PM
If there is any reason I shouldn't believe them on this occasion feel free to share it? If we are to consider the evidence of Mrs Fenn it could indicate it was included to mitigate Madeleine crying for 1hr 15 mins on the Tuesday. If I were to pick one of the three it would be Madeleine said she cried for that simple reason.. but as I have demonstrated in one my recent posts, we can't believe a word they say imo. The inability to trust a word they say, damaged the investigation beyond repair. And still does imo.
Oh well then ... it sure debunks the notion entertained by some of cadavers and freezers days before.  Every cloud has a silver lining after all.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on March 30, 2019, 09:06:50 PM
Of course I could, And I can say a big fat sorry if I made your life hard. X

Thank You again.  I just don't like having to sanction anything or anybody.  It really upsets me to have to do so.

But you have been really good this last couple of days.  An asset to this Forum in fact.  x
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on March 30, 2019, 09:09:04 PM
Are you citing scurrilous lies as a mitigating factor for the explainations Kate and Gerry told in that interview?
Are you suggesting there was no block booking?
Calls to mind what Rhett said to Scarlett all those years ago ... in this instance I must say I concur.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 30, 2019, 09:17:45 PM
Come on Faith, you know that Kate had answered their questions beforehand.

Kate told her mum that she would be answering every question, even after being made arguida.

Her poor mum when she realised that her daughter hadn’t been honest with her.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 30, 2019, 09:30:11 PM
Which was it, do you think?

That's a question the people changing their story need to answer, not me.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 30, 2019, 09:33:09 PM
With all due respect, I fail to see what any of that has to do with Gerry and Kate sitting and giving a TV interview and telling the audience that they didn't think they were going to get into the tapas bar on the 3rd, when they knew fine well they were already booked in. Do you think that's a good idea when your daughter's missing and you have already given the police two completely different versions of the last time he seen her alive.
Completely illogical behaviour for innocent parents of an abducted child imo..
We see a lot of posters misinterpreting statements to alter their meaning and I'm sure this is exactly what you are doing here
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 30, 2019, 09:40:37 PM
Which was it, do you think?

Rachael stayed in next door and heard no crying on Wednesday night so that should answer your question. However, Pamela Fenn said Madeleine was crying for a long period on Tuesday night.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on March 30, 2019, 09:46:17 PM
Or as I did suggest that a child's smell is made up from the combination of the hair shampoo,: soap used in bathing and the laundry powder used? That's not a question, that's a suggestion. Hardly any wonder I failed to answer it.
My sister's soft toy still retains her own unique scent after sixteen years, Are you seriously suggesting I am fabricating that fact or you suggesting she never washed and shampooed her hair? If you're suggesting either and intend to be factually correct, you had better revise your suggestion. Your wrong!

I guess your superior East End of Glasgow Hunan intuition does also include a much superior sense of smell.
I've never had the ability to distinguish family member by smell.
Possibly they should not wash, change deodorants, perfume, after shave.etc.
I'm just a Lanarkshire lass ( the posh side of the.county), so freely admit that I don't have such an exceptional skill
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 30, 2019, 09:47:14 PM
Rachael stayed in next door and heard no crying on Wednesday night so that should answer your question. However, Pamela Fenn said Madeleine was crying for a long period on Tuesday night.

No she didn't..
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 30, 2019, 09:51:22 PM
We see a lot of posters misinterpreting statements to alter their meaning and I'm sure this is exactly what you are doing here

Gerry McCann stated that the group thpught they might not get into the Tapas. Did no-one rell him they were booked in all week?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 30, 2019, 09:55:19 PM
Gerry McCann stated that the group thpught they might not get into the Tapas. Did no-one rell him they were booked in all week?
Thst needs a cite..otherwise it has no validity ..you have already misquoted Rowley today
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 30, 2019, 09:57:04 PM
She looks to have being drawing some comfort from her daughter's smell on the toy until 6 days before she alleges she was informed about the dogs. At which time she decided to subject it to an extensive cleaning process. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UT8yMpj-d80&t=114s

Eddie did find it in a bin so not that precious to be tossed in there but it's a remarkable coincidence that Eddie grabs that toy and no other. I personally don't believe what she said about when/why she washed CC.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 30, 2019, 09:59:58 PM
Eddie did find it in a bin so not that precious to be tossed in there but it's a remarkable coincidence that Eddie grabs that toy and no other. I personally don't believe what she said about when/why she washed CC.

Yes grabbed it but didn't alert to it
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 30, 2019, 10:01:23 PM
No she didn't..

Yes she did!

McCANNS said, oh well I wonder whether on the Wednesday, you know somebody had tried to get in perhaps or had got in and they'd seen something, erm you know and I was next door in the apartment but I mean I didnt hear any, well you know, I didnt hear anything.

00.46.02 1578 'So whilst you were in the apartment on the Wednesday evening, did you hear anything unusual''

 Reply 'No, nothing, no, erm it'.


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RACHAEL-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 30, 2019, 10:03:05 PM
Yes she did!

McCANNS said, oh well I wonder whether on the Wednesday, you know somebody had tried to get in perhaps or had got in and they'd seen something, erm you know and I was next door in the apartment but I mean I didnt hear any, well you know, I didnt hear anything.

00.46.02 1578 'So whilst you were in the apartment on the Wednesday evening, did you hear anything unusual''

 Reply 'No, nothing, no, erm it'.


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RACHAEL-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm

Mrs Fenn never said she heard Maddie crying.. She said she heard a child crying
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 30, 2019, 10:09:21 PM
yeah older than 2 from below.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 30, 2019, 10:11:02 PM
One interesting thing about Wednesday which should not be overlooked is Gerry claiming his mate Dave went to check on his children by himself. Dave denied it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 30, 2019, 10:12:47 PM
No she didn't..
I thought that was about right.  So who is "she"?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 30, 2019, 10:13:26 PM
yeah older than 2 from below.

Cite for older than two from below
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 30, 2019, 10:14:22 PM
I thought that was about right.  So who is "she"?
Mrs, fenn never, said she, heard Maddie crying
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 30, 2019, 10:15:07 PM
One interesting thing about Wednesday which should not be overlooked is Gerry claiming his mate Dave went to check on his children by himself. Dave denied it.

Another cite required
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 30, 2019, 10:15:53 PM
Cite for older than two from below

Read her statement. You have some cheek asking for cites when you never provide any!

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 30, 2019, 10:16:23 PM
Gerry McCann stated that the group thpught they might not get into the Tapas. Did no-one rell him they were booked in all week?
There were rules about block bookings.  It was the other guests who were missing out on their access to the Tapas Restaurant.  Maybe Gerry was aware that others were complaining about the Tapas 9 hogging the large table.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 30, 2019, 10:18:22 PM
Cite for older than two from below

"not a baby of two years of age or younger"

"She also said that she never told the McCann's that she had heard their daughter crying previously on 1st May because she thought it would just increase their suffering."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 30, 2019, 10:18:57 PM
Mrs, fenn never, said she, heard Maddie crying
Well she at least implied she thought it was Madeleine then.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 30, 2019, 10:19:55 PM
Another cite required

Gerry McCann 10 May statement.

DP rog denying checked on any children all week. Used baby monitor.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 30, 2019, 10:21:05 PM
Well she at least implied she thought it was Madeleine then.
She never said it was Maddie.. And it's never been shown it was Maddie...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 30, 2019, 10:23:47 PM
The twins were 2 years old. She said an older child so that is Maddy (nearly 4).
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 30, 2019, 10:24:23 PM
She never said it was Maddie.. And it's never been shown it was Maddie...
Mrs Fenn would have had to go down stairs and enter the McCann's apartment and sight Madeleine crying to absolutely confirm it was Madeleine crying.   Anything else has a degree of assumption to it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 30, 2019, 10:24:27 PM
Gerry McCann 10 May statement.

DP rog denying checked on any children all week. Used baby monitor.

Webwould need to look at their actual statements... Not your interpretation...are these these the... Unreliable... PJ taken statements.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 30, 2019, 10:26:11 PM
Webwould need to look at their actual statements... Not your interpretation...are these these the... Unreliable... PJ taken statements.
Give them some credit.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 30, 2019, 10:26:27 PM
The twins were 2 years old. She said an older child so that is Maddy.

She didn't mention 2 years old.. You did... So how old did she think the child was who was crying.. And can we, rely on the, accuracy of her statement
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 30, 2019, 10:27:45 PM
Give them some credit.

We have no idea how accurate  these statements are... As Colin Sutton said... The, room for error is enormous
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 30, 2019, 10:28:06 PM
Mrs Fenn would have had to go down stairs and enter the McCann's apartment and sight Madeleine crying to absolutely confirm it was Madeleine crying.   Anything else has a degree of assumption to it.


All we can do is make deductions from the available facts.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 30, 2019, 10:28:59 PM
She didn't mention 2 years old.. You did... So how old did she think the child was who was crying.. And can we, rely on the, accuracy of her statement

That is in her statement so why won't you read it?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 30, 2019, 10:35:30 PM
That is in her statement so why won't you read it?
We are asked to read the statements but if they say something we don't like we can claim they had issues with the translations.  The whole issue becomes problematic.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 30, 2019, 10:35:56 PM
Or as I did suggest that a child's smell is made up from the combination of the hair shampoo,: soap used in bathing and the laundry powder used? That's not a question, that's a suggestion. Hardly any wonder I failed to answer it.
My sister's soft toy still retains her own unique scent after sixteen years, Are you seriously suggesting I am fabricating that fact or you suggesting she never washed and shampooed her hair? If you're suggesting either and intend to be factually correct, you had better revise your suggestion. Your wrong!


I guess your superior East End of Glasgow Hunan intuition does also include a much superior sense of smell.
I've never had the ability to distinguish family member by smell.
Possibly they should not wash, change deodorants, perfume, after shave.etc.
I'm just a Lanarkshire lass ( the posh side of the.county), so freely admit that I don't have such an exceptional skill

There is no posh side of Lanarkshire.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on March 30, 2019, 10:44:37 PM
There is no posh side of Lanarkshire.

Of course there is.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on March 30, 2019, 10:53:07 PM
There's absolutely nothing posh about Lanarksire unless your a toff from Bothwell. Don't kid yersel on hen, lol. All the rest is merely an extension of the Eastend of Glesga. I never ever implied I had a sense of smell that could distinguish between family members. I said, and correctly so, that my late sister's soft toy has it's own unique smell that reminds me of her. That's a fact. If I ever put in the washing machine, it'll come out just another old soft toy. That's exactly what Kate done 6 days before she alleges she learnt of the dogs heading for PDL. In the interest of accuracy, the 18th of July is nothing other than an unverified allegation at this stage.


I'm sure your late sister's toy does have a smell which reminds you of her but so would many of her belongings which would have had the same smell.
That smell would be a mixture of the soaps, shampoo, perfume, laundry products.etc.

I'm sure Kate had many an item whose smell reminded her of her much loved child.

Lanarkshire is not Glasgow, well not the part of Lanarkshire where I was born and bred.
Quite, quite different.





Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on March 30, 2019, 11:02:03 PM
Bothwell is posh by most people's standards and even has it's own castle. Lot of millionaires live in very exclusive individual cul du sacs in Bothwell where the property can be very expensive. The rest of Lanarkshire is just an extension of the Eastend of Glasgow. The Clyde walkway along the Clyde at Bothwell also adds to it's appeal, particularly in the Autumn months.


There are some very posh houses built down in the area of Rosebank,  Garrion, Crossford and all along the CydeValley.
Some stunning houses!
Well away from the East End of Glasgow.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on March 30, 2019, 11:06:51 PM
With all due respect, I fail to see what any of that has to do with Gerry and Kate sitting and giving a TV interview and telling the audience that they didn't think they were going to get into the tapas bar on the 3rd, when they knew fine well they were already booked in. Do you think that's a good idea when your daughter's missing and you have already given the police two completely different versions of the last time he seen her alive.
Completely illogical behaviour for innocent parents of an abducted child imo..
I think the problem you may have is that you find whatever this particular couple have been doing over the past twelve years 'illogical' or many other adjectives you find appropriate.

I don't suffer from that syndrome and therefore find it rather difficult to follow the thought processes of your posts; I really don't dwell on the past ... I've moved on to the here and now where two National police forces are busy investigating Madeleine McCann's ongoing case
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 30, 2019, 11:10:48 PM
Kate told her mum that she would be answering every question, even after being made arguida.

Her poor mum when she realised that her daughter hadn’t been honest with her.
Could someone make Faithlilly provide a cite for both statement please.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 30, 2019, 11:18:22 PM
No smell of shampoo, no smell of soap. I can assure you.
Erngath my sister's toy smells exactly the same today as it did when I got it 16 years ago. It's a lot older than 16 years and if it ever went in the wash it would come out sentimentally worthless to me because it would not smell the same and her dna would no longer be on it. Her smell is on it, her dna is on it, she is no longer with us. Why would I want to wash it? Disease? We have a saying in Glasgow about disease that goes, dis es wee troosers fit ye.,  lol.
I realise you claim you find the fact Kate washed her abducted daughter's favorite soft toy around the time she learnt a cadaver dog was on the way to be perfectly innocent parental behaviour but you're barking up the wrong tree if you think you'll make me change my mind by citing shampoo and soap. Na... I'm still not buying it I'm afraid.
With the greatest respect I think all this talk of cuddly toys having a discernable unique smell to an individual child is complete crap.  We still have a number of my kids manky teddies from when they are young and I have given them a very thorough sniff test.  They just smell slightly musty and neglected, none of them brought back memories of my tiny tots’ unique perfumes.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on March 30, 2019, 11:21:27 PM
No smell of shampoo, no smell of soap. I can assure you.
Erngath my sister's toy smells exactly the same today as it did when I got it 16 years ago. It's a lot older than 16 years and if it ever went in the wash it would come out sentimentally worthless to me because it would not smell the same and her dna would no longer be on it. Her smell is on it, her dna is on it, she is no longer with us. Why would I want to wash it? Disease? We have a saying in Glasgow about disease that goes, dis es wee troosers fit ye.,  lol.
I realise you claim you find the fact Kate washed her abducted daughter's favorite soft toy around the time she learnt a cadaver dog was on the way to be perfectly innocent parental behaviour but you're barking up the wrong tree if you think you'll make me change my mind by citing shampoo and soap. Na... I'm still not buying it I'm afraid.

I have no concern nor any inclination to make you change your mind.
Perfectly happy for you to continue in your belief that Kate washing Madeleine's toy is an indication of some alterior motive.
I content myself in the belief that New Scotland Yard has not as yet given any indication that they share your view.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on March 30, 2019, 11:23:09 PM
With the greatest respect I think all this talk of cuddly toys having a discernable unique smell to an individual child is complete crap.  We still have a number of my kids manky teddies from when they are young and I have given them a very thorough sniff test.  They just smell slightly musty and neglected, none of them brought back memories of my tiny tots’ unique perfumes.

Exactly!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on March 30, 2019, 11:27:16 PM
There's absolutely nothing posh about Lanarksire unless your a toff from Bothwell. Don't kid yersel on hen, lol. All the rest is merely an extension of the Eastend of Glesga. I never ever implied I had a sense of smell that could distinguish between family members. I said, and correctly so, that my late sister's soft toy has it's own unique smell that reminds me of her. That's a fact. If I ever put in the washing machine, it'll come out just another old soft toy. That's exactly what Kate done 6 days before she alleges she learnt of the dogs heading for PDL. In the interest of accuracy, the 18th of July is nothing other than an unverified allegation at this stage.

30 July 2007
Specialist sniffer dogs, Eddie and Keela, arrive with their handler, Martin Grime.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id161.htm


THURSDAY, JULY 12:
Today I washed the Cuddle Cat.

Quote: From Kate McCann's diary

In the interests of accuracy NB your posts claiming a six day interval is blatantly wrong ... please amend them and remember not to repeat the error in future posts.  Thank you
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 30, 2019, 11:29:09 PM
Bothwell is posh by most people's standards and even has it's own castle. Lot of millionaires live in very exclusive individual cul du sacs in Bothwell where the property can be very expensive. The rest of Lanarkshire is just an extension of the Eastend of Glasgow. The Clyde walkway along the Clyde at Bothwell also adds to it's appeal, particularly in the Autumn months.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 30, 2019, 11:30:30 PM
30 July 2007
Specialist sniffer dogs, Eddie and Keela, arrive with their handler, Martin Grime.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id161.htm


THURSDAY, JULY 12:
Today I washed the Cuddle Cat.

Quote: From Kate McCann's diary

In the interests of accuracy NB your posts claiming a six day interval is blatantly wrong ... please amend them and remember not to repeat the error in future posts.  Thank you
I wonder what reason the sceptics can give us for why Kate volunteered this information to us in the first place if the only reason she washed cuddlecat was to get rid of incriminating evidence.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 30, 2019, 11:31:59 PM
What about Kate's book, she says she learnt of the dog's on the 18th July? Are you going to ignore that witness evidence?
So do you think Kate is psychic then?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 30, 2019, 11:36:12 PM
I can live with your opinion that cuddly toys having a discernible unique smell to an individual child is complete crap. I can live with that no problem. It's your opinion, not mine, and it's a free country.
I wonder what science would have to say about the possibility of a child’s unique scent still being discernable on any object after 16 years.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 30, 2019, 11:37:03 PM
I'm getting bored telling you what I think, your going on the rubber ear list - now.
Ooh, must have touched a nerve!  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 30, 2019, 11:42:31 PM
Bothwell is posh by most people's standards and even has it's own castle. Lot of millionaires live in very exclusive individual cul du sacs in Bothwell where the property can be very expensive. The rest of Lanarkshire is just an extension of the Eastend of Glasgow. The Clyde walkway along the Clyde at Bothwell also adds to it's appeal, particularly in the Autumn months.

Bothwell is populated by the nouveau riche, footballers, reality stars and the like. Rich but not posh. It is beautiful though and the castle on a summer’s day is a wonderful place to visit. I was fascinated by Mary Queen of Scots when I was a girl and spent my happy hours investigating the castle and more recently Chatelherault. My gran was brought up in the Palace so I have a deep connection to that part of our country. Haven’t walked the Clyde walkway yet but will the next time I’m there.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on March 30, 2019, 11:48:27 PM

There are some very posh houses built down in the area of Rosebank,  Garrion, Crossford and all along the CydeValley.
Some stunning houses!
Well away from the East End of Glasgow.

Agreed, beautiful houses.

I’ve lived in a very ‘posh’ part of the country for many years and one thing I’ve learned about people who have grown up here is that they never boast about it, they have no need to. They’re secure in their identity and don’t need to impress anyone. I like that.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 31, 2019, 12:08:03 AM
Agreed, beautiful houses.

I’ve lived in a very ‘posh’ part of the country for many years and one thing I’ve learned about people who have grown up here is that they never boast about it, they have no need to. They’re secure in their identity and don’t need to impress anyone. I like that.
LOL.  “I’ve lived in a very posh part of the country, and granny was brought up in a palace, but we don’t like to boast”.  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on March 31, 2019, 12:13:58 AM
I can live with the fact you've moved on and you don't suffer from any syndromes. I can't do anything about your difficultly in following my thought process however. I've not moved away from the fact two police investigations into what happened to Madeleine McCann are currently ongoing either. I'm hopeful they conclude their investigations positively but like I said to someone last evening. No theory is ever accepted without overwhelming evidence to support it. If the Mccanns and their very expensive team expect anyone to treat their theory any differently, then their living in cloud cuckoo land imo. 
I've seen no overwhelming evidence that supports the whooshing curtain theory.In fact,  I've seen nothing of evidential value that supports it at all imo.
I have formed the view that Kate's whooshing curtain performance is evidence against abduction imo. I believe it's one of the worst theatrical performances I'v ever had to witness imo. You'll have to forgive my honesty, but I say it the way I see it.
Logic dictates the physical impossibility of Kate and Gerry or any of their friends contriving the vanishing of a child.

Amaral has lurched from one ridiculous scenario to another in the attempt and neither has anyone else come up with a viable solution despite having twelve years to mull it over.  If you've got one it might deserve serious consideration ... but in the absence of a working model of how it was done, pontificating about something which has never worried either the Judicial police or Scotland Yard really doesn't hold much water.

One of the first things Rebelo did when he took over the investigation was an in depth personal inspection of the apartment window ... one of the photographs of which clearly shows ... a whooshing curtain.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on March 31, 2019, 12:16:50 AM
You better believe it and Gerry was also the first one to mention David Payne's visit to check on Kate. A fact they both forgot to mention. I'm not sure which of the two versions of the Payne visit we're expected to believe. The Kate was there version or the Kate and Gerry were there version.

You really would think, this being a huge occasion in all their lives, they would have  a better recollection, It is all stammer and stutter  and makes no sence.  It all reads like a bad drama-wooden actors,bad script, black comedy.

They have all stayed quiet. 
 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 31, 2019, 12:17:00 AM
I see all the posts on Gerry and his mate Dave checking or not on the McCann children have disappeared. Is there a particular reason these two cannot be mentioned together on this forum?

1485 "Yeah, and at what point did you have the conversation with him' Did he stop the game or did you speak whilst he was playing''

 00:31:48 Reply "I can't remember, I can't remember. I, you know, in my mind, you know, he stopped playing and you know but I can't remember if I'm perfectly honest.'


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

He can't remember, he can't remember, he can't remember! But he remembers everything so clearly about what happened next - going inside and seeing the little angels. Shame about the other witness contradicting everything you said.  I've got you Dave!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on March 31, 2019, 12:23:31 AM
What about Kate's book, she says she learnt of the dog's on the 18th July? Are you going to ignore that witness evidence?

Uh-huh ... and she washed the cuddle cat when exactly?  Thursday July 12th.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 31, 2019, 12:26:29 AM
30 July 2007
Specialist sniffer dogs, Eddie and Keela, arrive with their handler, Martin Grime.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id161.htm


THURSDAY, JULY 12:
Today I washed the Cuddle Cat.

Quote: From Kate McCann's diary

In the interests of accuracy NB your posts claiming a six day interval is blatantly wrong ... please amend them and remember not to repeat the error in future posts.  Thank you

As you well know that entry could be written at any time. If she is involved and CC was washed after she heard the sniffer dogs were on their way she is not going to use that date as the diary entry. Leaving a false trail which you may have heard before in criminal cases.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on March 31, 2019, 12:36:02 AM
As you well know that entry could be written at any time. If she is involved and CC was washed after she heard the sniffer dogs were on their way she is not going to use that date as the diary entry.

Do you really think the police who were falling over themselves to set her up would have overlooked something as obvious as an amendment such as you suggest in a dated daily journal? It would have been manna from heaven.

The myth of five or in this case six days is exactly that ... a myth.  Just like all the other myths it has been necessary to construct to fit in with the narrative to make it workable.

I keep on wondering why people feel the necessity to do things like that.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 31, 2019, 12:48:59 AM
Do you really think the police who were falling over themselves to set her up would have overlooked something as obvious as an amendment such as you suggest in a dated daily journal? It would have been manna from heaven.

The myth of five or in this case six days is exactly that ... a myth.  Just like all the other myths it has been necessary to construct to fit in with the narrative to make it workable.

I keep on wondering why people feel the necessity to do things like that.

When the police arrived the washing machine was full so washing was going on before their arrival and possibly other stuff. Diary entries can be written at any time.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on March 31, 2019, 12:53:03 AM
Uh-huh,, so the 18th makes it 6 days. Don't you think you should get your facts straight before you go threatening people? That's what I done before I posted the date. I wasn't blatantly wrong after all, you were. No need to apologise, it's fine and dandy.  8(0(*

What comes first ... 12 ... or ... 18?

Kate washed the cuddle cat on the 12th.

She was told on the 18th that the dogs were coming ... and they subsequently arrived on the 30th.

Erse for elbow springs to mind for your post and the dates.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on March 31, 2019, 12:55:43 AM
When the police arrived the washing machine was full so washing was going on before their arrival and possibly other stuff. Diary entries can be written at any time.

Washing with normal detergent does not remove cadaver odour. As doctors, Kate & Gerry would have known that - so why do you find a normal domestic chore so suspicious? The clothing Eddie alerted to would have been washed several times between May & August 2007 imo.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on March 31, 2019, 12:59:14 AM
When the police arrived the washing machine was full so washing was going on before their arrival and possibly other stuff. Diary entries can be written at any time.

So it is now a crime for Kate McCann to do a family wash now???

Diaries are private ... and this one was being kept for Madeleine and not to be read by strangers or sold to tabloids.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 31, 2019, 02:07:18 AM
Washing with normal detergent does not remove cadaver odour. As doctors, Kate & Gerry would have known that - so why do you find a normal domestic chore so suspicious? The clothing Eddie alerted to would have been washed several times between May & August 2007 imo.

Well that may explain the unreliable dogs comment  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on March 31, 2019, 02:15:11 AM
The car began to stink in July, the toy went in the wash in July and the dog was alerting to things McCann in July.
Coincidence? I don't think so.

You have no evidence, let alone proof, that any cadaver was moved by anyone, let alone the McCanns.
 It would be good to hear your explanation as to how an experience detective could deduce death & cadaver concealment of a corpse occurred based on uncorroborated dog alerts & forensics in various locations which didn't pertain to Madeleine.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 31, 2019, 02:17:21 AM
Madeleine was part of their family and they are always first suspects in these cases.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on March 31, 2019, 02:22:13 AM
There are five calls involving Stuart Prior and Gerry. In each case the call was initiated by Stuart. They vary in length from 25 seconds (July 4th) to 7 mins 24 seconds (July 16th). The final call, lasting exactly 6 minutes, occurs on July 19th – just a day before Mark Harrison arrived in Praia da Luz and a day after Kate alleges she was told of the dogs on the recommendation of British police.
Coincidence? We'll have to wait and see.

Have you not considered that those phone calls may have also related to the face-to-face confrontation on 11th July 2007 between Murat & 3 of the Tapas 9 who'd returned to Portugal for that purpose on request?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on March 31, 2019, 02:28:00 AM
Wait a minute, (thanks for saving my post btw). The post begins you don't know, don't you think that indicates there is no evidence, no proof. Is there something wrong in debating simple hypothesis on here? There was some circumstantial evidence in my post that you appear to have ignored.

Eddie did not alert to the boot area of the Scenic so where is the evidence the foul smell was anything other than decaying meat juices as described by the witnesses?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on March 31, 2019, 02:58:41 AM
When we unloaded the shopping bags, we noticed that blood has run out of the bottom of the plastic bag. After this shopping trip and still in the month of July 2007, I began to notice a strange odour in the car.
The smell of a dead body would definitely fall into the strange odour category imo. Don't you think.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/A-J-CAMERON.htm

Eddie did not alert at the air vents in the boot lid of the scenic so the strange odour could not have been from a cadaver - unless you are of the opinion the dog failed on that occasion.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on March 31, 2019, 03:23:54 AM
But whose erse are you talking about, and whose elbow? 
In the interests of accuracy NB your posts claiming a six day interval is blatantly wrong ... please amend them and remember not to repeat the error in future posts.  Thank you

Your correct the 12th comes first, and the 18th comes 6 days later. So why are you claiming I'm making posts that are blatantly wrong when they are in fact blatantly right? You're blatantly wrong on this occasion.
If you're going to go to the bully, make sure you get it right next time.  8(0(*
This is becoming tedious.

The claim is that Kate washed the cuddle cat when she heard the British dogs were coming.

Kate wrote in her diary that she washed the cuddle cat on the 12th.

She did not know until the 18th that the dogs were to be deployed.

Put simply ... Kate did not know when she washed the cuddle cat that the dogs were to be deployed.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 31, 2019, 06:53:16 AM
When we unloaded the shopping bags, we noticed that blood has run out of the bottom of the plastic bag. After this shopping trip and still in the month of July 2007, I began to notice a strange odour in the car.
The smell of a dead body would definitely fall into the strange odour category imo. Don't you think.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/A-J-CAMERON.htm
How often would blood leak out of a plastic shopping bag?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on March 31, 2019, 09:02:27 AM
How often would blood leak out of a plastic shopping bag?
Not often ... but many years ago I dropped in on a friend on my way home from shopping and was mortified when I picked up my carrier bag prior to leaving to see a huge stain on her carpet where blood had leaked through.
In those days meat was wrapped in paper and could be sodden through by the time it was being unpacked at home.

It does happen.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 31, 2019, 09:22:07 AM
As you well know that entry could be written at any time. If she is involved and CC was washed after she heard the sniffer dogs were on their way she is not going to use that date as the diary entry. Leaving a false trail which you may have heard before in criminal cases.
Why admit to washing it at all?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 31, 2019, 09:50:57 AM
Eddie did not alert at the air vents in the boot lid of the scenic so the strange odour could not have been from a cadaver - unless you are of the opinion the dog failed on that occasion.
I wonder why the doors and boots of all cars in the line up were not left open to allow the dogs to get in and sniff?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 31, 2019, 10:22:39 AM
How do you know Stuart Prior wasn't discussing the dogs during his five calls to Gerry between July 3rd and July 19th? Do you know what they were discussing?
Do you think he was tipping them off?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 31, 2019, 10:35:29 AM
Martin Grime seen all that but he still said in his professional opinion the alerts by Eddie were for dead body scent contaminant. I'm naive about cadaver dog handling and for that reason I've always stuck to what the experts tell me. If an alive Madeleine McCann ever turns up, the cadaver dog experts here on this forum, will be proven correct and it won't look too good for Martin Grime imo. That's the way I see it.

Grime never said that... Check again... He said were possibly to cadaver contaminant or suggestive of.. He never said in his opinion it was.... A common sceptic mistake.. You need to take careful note of what the experts, say
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 31, 2019, 11:10:20 AM
Eddie did not alert at the air vents in the boot lid of the scenic so the strange odour could not have been from a cadaver - unless you are of the opinion the dog failed on that occasion.

Eddie went under the boot area and that is where hairs were found matching in colour to Madeleine. Eddie was chasing that strong scent all over the underground car park.


Reference objects
I received [obtained] information from the pillow-case SJM/1, the tops SJM2, 4 and 5, and the hairbrush SJM/36 belonging to Madeleine McCann or used by her.

A total number of twelve [12] hairs or hair fragments were recovered from the tops SJM/2, SJM/4 and SJM/5. All of these appeared to be hair and not down, being mainly blonde in colour.

Conclusion
In the objects recovered from the Scenic, there were around 15 blonde/fair hairs similar to the reference hairs from SJM2, 4 and 5. However, as it was not possible to do solid [definitive] or significant [forensically meaningful] tests it is not possible for me to determine if, or not, these could have been from Madeleine McCann.

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/A_L_PALMER.htm
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 31, 2019, 11:35:31 AM
I prefer the term discussing developments with the family of a missing child. You can use tipping them off if you like.
It was the only five calls Start Prior ever made directly to Gerry. July 3rd to the day before Mark Harrison arrived and the day after Kate alleges she learnt of the dogs. I can't see it being anything else. Stuart Prior will know if I'm wrong.
The police could deliberately tip them off and in some cases it will entice the guilty to go and check the site where a body has been hidden.  The fact that Kate wrote in her diary she washed Cuddle Cat (CC) that note could have been interpreted as a sign CC was involved somehow.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on March 31, 2019, 11:39:01 AM
The police could deliberately tip them off and in some cases it will entice the guilty to go and check the site where a body has been hidden.  The fact that Kate wrote in her diary she washed Cuddle Cat (CC) that note could have been interpreted as a sign CC was involved somehow.

New headline for Sun newspaper - IT WAS CUDDLECAT WOT DONE IT 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on March 31, 2019, 01:45:15 PM
Martin Grime seen all that but he still said in his professional opinion the alerts by Eddie were for dead body scent contaminant. I'm naive about cadaver dog handling and for that reason I've always stuck to what the experts tell me. If an alive Madeleine McCann ever turns up, the cadaver dog experts here on this forum, will be proven correct and it won't look too good for Martin Grime imo. That's the way I see it.
It will look exactly as it has always looked for Martin Grime ...It is absolutely nothing to do with Martin Grime that people have put their own spin on events which is at variance with what he said but is what they would like him to have said.
(http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/dLt0fFdRuGIDEOXU2Pw_ynxM5M6F69q5K0vJgCtCidN2WxYv5Hp0PQ1mEtrFwWQDUN7QdA=s137)
Vis-ŕ-vis the iconic image of Eddie baying with his head in the air which was put about as an alert to cadaver scent when in actual fact it was proven to be an alert to a key fob contaminated by cellular material from a forensically identified living person.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 31, 2019, 01:48:39 PM
I guess your superior East End of Glasgow Hunan intuition does also include a much superior sense of smell.
I've never had the ability to distinguish family member by smell.
Possibly they should not wash, change deodorants, perfume, after shave.etc.
I'm just a Lanarkshire lass ( the posh side of the.county), so freely admit that I don't have such an exceptional skill

The posh side of Lanarkshire?  Is there one?  Which side is it?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on March 31, 2019, 06:04:39 PM
Mrs Fenn would have had to go down stairs and enter the McCann's apartment and sight Madeleine crying to absolutely confirm it was Madeleine crying.   Anything else has a degree of assumption to it.

As Maddie admitted to crying I think the point is a mute one.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 31, 2019, 06:39:53 PM
As Maddie admitted to crying I think the point is a mute one.
If only.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 31, 2019, 06:41:16 PM
As Maddie admitted to crying I think the point is a mute one.
The night Madeleine admits to crying was on a different day altogether.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 31, 2019, 07:25:38 PM
Yep the night Rachael stayed in and heard nothing next door. Mrs Fenn heard nothing that night either so both  witnesses closest to that apartment heard nothing on Wednesday night. That answers that question.

"She did not have anything to report for the 2nd May, because she was only home at night." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 31, 2019, 08:24:47 PM
Yep the night Rachael stayed in and heard nothing next door. Mrs Fenn heard nothing that night either so both  witnesses closest to that apartment heard nothing on Wednesday night. That answers that question.

"She did not have anything to report for the 2nd May, because she was only home at night." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm
Well if she was home that Wednesday night and heard nothing that is at least some good news.  Yet that is the night Madeleine says "Shaun and I were crying"  OK maybe Mrs Fenn dosed off and heard nothing.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on March 31, 2019, 08:33:14 PM
Well if she was home that Wednesday night and heard nothing that is at least some good news.  Yet that is the night Madeleine says "Shaun and I were crying"  OK maybe Mrs Fenn dosed off and heard nothing.

It was probably when they were being bathed or put down, as their parents hypothesised. I wonder where they were?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on March 31, 2019, 08:34:00 PM
Well if she was home that Wednesday night and heard nothing that is at least some good news.  Yet that is the night Madeleine says "Shaun and I were crying"  OK maybe Mrs Fenn dosed off and heard nothing.


Only hearsay.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on April 01, 2019, 09:35:35 AM
Excerpts from the courtcase.

https://omny.fm/shows/maddie/the-courtroom
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 01, 2019, 10:22:05 AM
The latest podcast is now available; the courtroom.

But first there have been some developments. Mark Perlin us going to contact OG directly and offer his services. Mark the reporter will keep us informed of his progress.

The next subject is The Fund and the concerns about it's lack of the promised transparency. Metodo 3 are discussed next, including Marco's extraordinary claim that they had solved the case. .

The libel trial is then discussed, including Gerry McCann's misunderstanding of the archive dispatch and the differences between witness testimonies when asked about the same subject.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on April 01, 2019, 10:25:42 AM
The latest podcast is now available; the courtroom.

But first there have been some developments. Mark Perlin us going to contact OG directly and offer his services. Mark the reporter will keep us informed of his progress.

The next subject is The Fund and the concerns about it's lack of the promised transparency. Metodo 3 are discussed next, including Marco's extraordinary claim that they had solved the case. .

The libel trial is then discussed, including Gerry McCann's misunderstanding of the archive dispatch and the differences between witness testimonies when asked about the same subject.


Good synopsis G Unit.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on April 01, 2019, 10:25:52 AM
When we unloaded the shopping bags, we noticed that blood has run out of the bottom of the plastic bag. After this shopping trip and still in the month of July 2007, I began to notice a strange odour in the car.
The smell of a dead body would definitely fall into the strange odour category imo. Don't you think.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/A-J-CAMERON.htm

The smell of a dead body would be over powering,  in the small space of a car you'd hardly be able to breathe.   Nothing like 'strange odour'.   IMO
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on April 01, 2019, 10:28:18 AM
The latest podcast is now available; the courtroom.

But first there have been some developments. Mark Perlin us going to contact OG directly and offer his services. Mark the reporter will keep us informed of his progress.

The next subject is The Fund and the concerns about it's lack of the promised transparency. Metodo 3 are discussed next, including Marco's extraordinary claim that they had solved the case. .

The libel trial is then discussed, including Gerry McCann's misunderstanding of the archive dispatch and the differences between witness testimonies when asked about the same subject.

I watched the interview with Mark Perlin,  he said when there is a mixture of three or more DNA's the computer can separate them out or similar words.   Now tell me please how can a computer separate them out if they don't know the DNA of the people involved in the mixture?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 01, 2019, 10:33:12 AM
The latest podcast is now available; the courtroom.

But first there have been some developments. Mark Perlin us going to contact OG directly and offer his services. Mark the reporter will keep us informed of his progress.

The next subject is The Fund and the concerns about it's lack of the promised transparency. Metodo 3 are discussed next, including Marco's extraordinary claim that they had solved the case. .

The libel trial is then discussed, including Gerry McCann's misunderstanding of the archive dispatch and the differences between witness testimonies when asked about the same subject.

I don't see that Gerry misunderstood  the significance if the archiving despatch... Explain how he did... You are continually promoting your opinions as fact... And not providing cites...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 01, 2019, 10:36:00 AM
The latest podcast is now available; the courtroom.

But first there have been some developments. Mark Perlin us going to contact OG directly and offer his services. Mark the reporter will keep us informed of his progress.

The next subject is The Fund and the concerns about it's lack of the promised transparency. Metodo 3 are discussed next, including Marco's extraordinary claim that they had solved the case. .

The libel trial is then discussed, including Gerry McCann's misunderstanding of the archive dispatch and the differences between witness testimonies when asked about the same subject.

Why do they not contact the PJ as they have primacy in the case
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 01, 2019, 10:40:35 AM
Mark Perlin said the data can be analysed to see if someone left their DNA... Someone needs to tell this expert about transference... Perlin should be promoting caution Re his alleged abilities... Not sensationalism
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on April 01, 2019, 10:52:43 AM
The smell of a dead body would be over powering,  in the small space of a car you'd hardly be able to breathe.   Nothing like 'strange odour'.   IMO
Not if the body had been frozen immediately after death.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on April 01, 2019, 10:58:00 AM
I don't see that Gerry misunderstood  the significance if the archiving despatch... Explain how he did... You are continually promoting your opinions as fact... And not providing cites...
Looks more like a synopsis of the podcast contents rather than the 'opinion' of the the poster.
Please refrain from misrepresentation.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on April 01, 2019, 11:05:43 AM
Not if the body had been frozen immediately after death.

In that heat it wouldn't have stayed frozen for long.   
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on April 01, 2019, 11:09:19 AM
I watched the interview with Mark Perlin,  he said when there is a mixture of three or more DNA's the computer can separate them out or similar words.   Now tell me please how can a computer separate them out if they don't know the DNA of the people involved in the mixture?

Perhaps a computer can seperate out mixtures of dna into individual's.Up to some one then to connect them to relevant persons?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 01, 2019, 11:27:12 AM
I watched the interview with Mark Perlin,  he said when there is a mixture of three or more DNA's the computer can separate them out or similar words.   Now tell me please how can a computer separate them out if they don't know the DNA of the people involved in the mixture?

It's not the how that matters it's the if.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 01, 2019, 11:31:47 AM
I don't see that Gerry misunderstood  the significance if the archiving despatch... Explain how he did... You are continually promoting your opinions as fact... And not providing cites...

I was repeating what was said in the podcast. My cite is the link to the podcast and if you listen to it there is an explanation given.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 01, 2019, 11:35:49 AM
Why do they not contact the PJ as they have primacy in the case

The clients of the FSS were LP, not the PJ. The information needed was archived in the UK and withdrawn by persons unknown in 2012, I think it was. Was a copy of that information given to the PJ at any point?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 01, 2019, 11:44:42 AM
Perhaps a computer can seperate out mixtures of dna into individual's.Up to some one then to connect them to relevant persons?

That is what Mark Perlib claims; that he can seperate mixed samples and show how nany contributors there really were and which alletes belong to which person. So he could say how many people were represented in the mixed sample from the boot and which markers belonged to each person. I don't know if that would shed any light on the case, but it could answer the question of whether Madeleine's DNA was in the boot of the car.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on April 01, 2019, 01:09:43 PM
That is what Mark Perlib claims; that he can seperate mixed samples and show how nany contributors there really were and which alletes belong to which person. So he could say how many people were represented in the mixed sample from the boot and which markers belonged to each person. I don't know if that would shed any light on the case, but it could answer the question of whether Madeleine's DNA was in the boot of the car.

Maybe the computer could work out how many people were in the mix,   but how it could know the markers for each person is beyond me.  How on earth would it know which markers belonged where?   Ok  they have Madeleine's DNA  from which was found 19 markers I believe.  Now if they were searching for the rest of the markers,  how would the machine know which markers were hers,  even if it was found to have the rest of the markers in her DNA  they could also belong to other people who are in the mix,  do you see what I mean?  Madeleine would share markers with her family and also with the general public.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 01, 2019, 01:54:44 PM
That is what Mark Perlib claims; that he can seperate mixed samples and show how nany contributors there really were and which alletes belong to which person. So he could say how many people were represented in the mixed sample from the boot and which markers belonged to each person. I don't know if that would shed any light on the case, but it could answer the question of whether Madeleine's DNA was in the boot of the car.

I dont think it could...as misty says it could only make reference to known dna samples....i dont see how it could unravel an unknown profile from a mixture
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 01, 2019, 01:55:28 PM
Maybe the computer could work out how many people were in the mix,   but how it could know the markers for each person is beyond me.  How on earth would it know which markers belonged where?   Ok  they have Madeleine's DNA  from which was found 19 markers I believe.  Now if they were searching for the rest of the markers,  how would the machine know which markers were hers,  even if it was found to have the rest of the markers in her DNA  they could also belong to other people who are in the mix,  do you see what I mean?  Madeleine would share markers with her family and also with the general public.

perhaps perlin hasnt expalined it very well
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 01, 2019, 02:15:52 PM
Another one added to the people on the sceptic supporter's list.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 01, 2019, 02:31:34 PM
Another one added to the people on the sceptic supporter's list.

Why has he said it would show whether maddies DNA was in the car when it wouldnt.... Would he not need both Kate and gerrys DNA for any meaningful analysis
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on April 01, 2019, 02:47:32 PM
Maybe the computer could work out how many people were in the mix,   but how it could know the markers for each person is beyond me.  How on earth would it know which markers belonged where?   Ok  they have Madeleine's DNA  from which was found 19 markers I believe.  Now if they were searching for the rest of the markers,  how would the machine know which markers were hers,  even if it was found to have the rest of the markers in her DNA  they could also belong to other people who are in the mix,  do you see what I mean?  Madeleine would share markers with her family and also with the general public.

I do see what you mean, it's beyond me too, but it doesn't matter that you don't understand how it works, just as long as the people using it do.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on April 02, 2019, 03:46:53 AM
I do see what you mean, it's beyond me too, but it doesn't matter that you don't understand how it works, just as long as the people using it do.
A lot of words seem to get used incorrectly.

Alleles is a word we should be using.  At each site a person will have 2 alleles (one from the mother and one from the father).   It is possible that at that site the allele inherited from the mother will be the same as the father so they will be homologous at that site.
So if the lab checks 10 sites there could be a maximum of 20 alleles.  If they found 3 alleles at any one site it suggests at least 2 persons contributed to the DNA sample, but it could be 3 persons if they were all contributors were homologous at that site.

If they found  5 alleles at any one site it suggests at least 3 persons contributed to the DNA sample, but it could be 5 persons if they were all homologous at that site.  (This is the situation found in the MM case IMO)

But if there were 3 persons contributing to a DNA sample there could be a maximum total of 60 alleles in the sample (6 alleles per site).

If they only found a total of 36 alleles from a sample that had at least 3 contributors IMO it suggests the contributors were closely related.

If the sample was a mix DNA from child, mother and maternal grandmother, I think it is possible to have a total of 36 alleles, but from analysis there would also need to be multiple homologous alleles between the father's and the maternal line. This could happen in smallish communities.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on April 02, 2019, 08:49:13 AM
A lot of words seem to get used incorrectly.

Alleles is a word we should be using.  At each site a person will have 2 alleles (one from the mother and one from the father).   It is possible that at that site the allele inherited from the mother will be the same as the father so they will be homologous at that site.
So if the lab checks 10 sites there could be a maximum of 20 alleles.  If they found 3 alleles at any one site it suggests at least 2 persons contributed to the DNA sample, but it could be 3 persons if they were all contributors were homologous at that site.

If they found  5 alleles at any one site it suggests at least 3 persons contributed to the DNA sample, but it could be 5 persons if they were all homologous at that site.  (This is the situation found in the MM case IMO)

But if there were 3 persons contributing to a DNA sample there could be a maximum total of 60 alleles in the sample (6 alleles per site).

If they only found a total of 36 alleles from a sample that had at least 3 contributors IMO it suggests the contributors were closely related.

If the sample was a mix DNA from child, mother and maternal grandmother, I think it is possible to have a total of 36 alleles, but from analysis there would also need to be multiple homologous alleles between the father's and the maternal line. This could happen in smallish communities.

The contributors could easily be members of the general public as it was a hire car. IMO
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on April 02, 2019, 09:20:31 AM
The contributors could easily be members of the general public as it was a hire car. IMO

Indeed they could, which is why it would be a good thing if  clarification were able to replace uncertainty.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on April 02, 2019, 09:38:58 AM
Indeed they could, which is why it would be a good thing if  clarification were able to replace uncertainty.



Part of Lowes report -
   A complex LCN DNA result which appeared to have originated from at least three people was obtained from cellular material recovered from the luggage compartment section 286C 2007 CRL10 (2) area 2. Within the DNA profile of Madeline McCann there are 20 DNA components represented by 19 peaks on a chart. At one of the areas of DNA we routinely examine Madeleine has inherited the same DNA component from both parents; this appears therefore as 1 peak rather than 2, hence 19 rather than 20. Of these 19 components 15 are present within the result from this item; there are 37 components in total. There are 37 components because there are at least 3 contributors; but there could be up to five contributors. In my opinion therefore this result is too complex for meaningful interpretation/inclusion.

37 components  of which 15 was Madeleine's.   
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on April 02, 2019, 10:06:53 AM


Part of Lowes report -
   A complex LCN DNA result which appeared to have originated from at least three people was obtained from cellular material recovered from the luggage compartment section 286C 2007 CRL10 (2) area 2. Within the DNA profile of Madeline McCann there are 20 DNA components represented by 19 peaks on a chart. At one of the areas of DNA we routinely examine Madeleine has inherited the same DNA component from both parents; this appears therefore as 1 peak rather than 2, hence 19 rather than 20. Of these 19 components 15 are present within the result from this item; there are 37 components in total. There are 37 components because there are at least 3 contributors; but there could be up to five contributors. In my opinion therefore this result is too complex for meaningful interpretation/inclusion.

37 components  of which 15 was Madeleine's.   

Exactly - uncertainty.
Wouldn't it be nice if there could be a definitive answer ?  8)-)))
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 02, 2019, 10:26:35 AM
Exactly - uncertainty.
Wouldn't it be nice if there could be a definitive answer ?  8)-)))

Not really... It wouldn't prove anything
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 02, 2019, 10:33:58 AM
Not really... It wouldn't prove anything

What if none of the 'components' were actually MBM's?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on April 02, 2019, 10:34:58 AM
Not really... It wouldn't prove anything

It could prove that the similarity to Madeleine’s DNA was simpl by chance and that there was nothing to put Madeleine in the car.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 02, 2019, 11:26:07 AM
What if none of the 'components' were actually MBM's?

That would not prove Maddie had not been carried in the car
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 02, 2019, 11:29:09 AM
It could also prove the Portuguese police were not under so much pressure that they planted DNA evidence of a missing child who they had never met in their lives before, in the hire car.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92Ri32SU2rE&t=193s

Madeleines DNA could be all over the car... The dogs don't alert to dna
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on April 02, 2019, 11:45:20 AM
It could prove that the similarity to Madeleine’s DNA was simpl by chance and that there was nothing to put Madeleine in the car.

How could it prove that?    All it will do is pick out the components that match Madeleine's DNA which has already been done,  which doesn't prove it was Madeleine's DNA as her components are not unique to her.   If they knew who was in the mix then they could find DNA for different people but as they don't know who these other contributors are then IMO it's impossible.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 02, 2019, 11:50:35 AM
How could it prove that?    All it will do is pick out the components that match Madeleine's DNA which has already been done,  which doesn't prove it was Madeleine's DNA as her components are not unique to her.   If they knew who was in the mix then they could find DNA for different people but as they don't know who these other contributors are then IMO it's impossible.

I read on the news 9 site that Mark S contacted SY last year so nothing is happening
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on April 02, 2019, 12:09:28 PM
The contributors could easily be members of the general public as it was a hire car. IMO
If that was the case 3 contributors would result in nearer 60 alleles. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on April 02, 2019, 12:12:10 PM


Part of Lowes report -
   A complex LCN DNA result which appeared to have originated from at least three people was obtained from cellular material recovered from the luggage compartment section 286C 2007 CRL10 (2) area 2. Within the DNA profile of Madeline McCann there are 20 DNA components represented by 19 peaks on a chart. At one of the areas of DNA we routinely examine Madeleine has inherited the same DNA component from both parents; this appears therefore as 1 peak rather than 2, hence 19 rather than 20. Of these 19 components 15 are present within the result from this item; there are 37 components in total. There are 37 components because there are at least 3 contributors; but there could be up to five contributors. In my opinion therefore this result is too complex for meaningful interpretation/inclusion.

37 components  of which 15 was Madeleine's.   
Not Madeleine's but the same as Madeleine's.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on April 02, 2019, 12:13:40 PM
Not really... It wouldn't prove anything
The further analysis could eliminate Madeleine being in the hire car.  That would be the real advantage IMO.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 02, 2019, 12:18:15 PM
The further analysis could eliminate Madeleine being in the hire car.  That would be the real advantage.

Why would this one sample eliminate Maddie being in the car... There could be more DNA of Maddie in the car... The digs don't alert to dna
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on April 02, 2019, 12:33:44 PM
Why would this one sample eliminate Maddie being in the car... There could be more DNA of Maddie in the car... The digs don't alert to dna
The odd bit of DNA could be in the car, but this sample was from underneath surface of the boot mat.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 02, 2019, 12:58:04 PM
The odd bit of DNA could be in the car, but this sample was from underneath surface of the boot mat.
What do you think is the significance of that.. None of it really signifies anything
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on April 02, 2019, 04:36:58 PM
What do you think is the significance of that.. None of it really signifies anything
Get the evidence first and work from that.  Run the test first.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on April 02, 2019, 05:36:12 PM
The people who believe the earth is flat are organising a Flat Earth Cruise to Antarctica sometime in 2020 in the hope of substantiating their beliefs.  Confident that the ice wall will stop them sailing over the edge perhaps?
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2019/jan/09/flat-earth-cruise-nautical-navigation

The McCann conspiracy theorists pin their hopes on one guru after another the latest one promoting podcasts of every theory I've ever heard of.
The only thing more ludicrous than the current DNA speculation was the 100% claim which some diehards hold dear to their hearts  💖

At least the Flat Earthers don't intentionally cause harm or distress to anyone else with their beliefs.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on April 02, 2019, 08:15:11 PM
The people who believe the earth is flat are organising a Flat Earth Cruise to Antarctica sometime in 2020 in the hope of substantiating their beliefs.  Confident that the ice wall will stop them sailing over the edge perhaps?
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2019/jan/09/flat-earth-cruise-nautical-navigation

The McCann conspiracy theorists pin their hopes on one guru after another the latest one promoting podcasts of every theory I've ever heard of.
The only thing more ludicrous than the current DNA speculation was the 100% claim which some diehards hold dear to their hearts  💖

At least the Flat Earthers don't intentionally cause harm or distress to anyone else with their beliefs.


Indded they don't
I'm not too sure of how brave they are or how deluded they are.
.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 04, 2019, 02:55:20 PM
There's been no libel actions raised against Mark Saunokonoko as far as I'm aware. I wonder if any will be raised after his next podcast that covers the deleted telephone calls. Just another example of typical parental behaviour when they claim they discover their child has been abducted by paedophiles.  &%%6

I don't think there is typical behaviour in these circumstances... Everyone's, different
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 04, 2019, 03:05:31 PM
I tend to agree deleting telephone calls from a cell phone would not be what I would consider typical parental behaviour from parents who believed their daughter had just been abducted by a gang of paedophiles.  &%%6

Depends when they were deleted... It's the sort of thing I might do... If I'm sitting around waiting it would prove a distraction... We all have our opinions.. The mccabbs have driven forward the reinvestigation of the case.  .that doesn't sound like someone who was guilty and has got away with it
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 04, 2019, 03:34:43 PM
Mark Saunokonoko is going to be kind enough to explain it all to his listeners in detail on Monday.  I don't know what it is that motivates you to claim you might delete your telephone calls after learning your daughter had been abducted but it certainly does prove that we are all different.
I eas, already aware we are all different... Many fund jogging strange... I dont
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 04, 2019, 03:41:59 PM
Depends when they were deleted... It's the sort of thing I might do... If I'm sitting around waiting it would prove a distraction... We all have our opinions.. The mccabbs have driven forward the reinvestigation of the case.  .that doesn't sound like someone who was guilty and has got away with it

I watched a programme about Russell Bishop the other evening. He murdered two little girls in 1986 and was tried and acquitted in 1987 and it took until 2018 to finally convict him. Following his acquittal the parents of the girls and the police were horrified and angry when he campaigned for justice alongside them because they were convinced of his guilt. The theory was that he did it in order to convince people of his innocence.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 04, 2019, 03:56:12 PM
I watched a programme about Russell Bishop the other evening. He murdered two little girls in 1986 and was tried and acquitted in 1987 and it took until 2018 to finally convict him. Following his acquittal the parents of the girls and the police were horrified and angry when he campaigned for justice alongside them because they were convinced of his guilt. The theory was that he did it in order to convince people of his innocence.

You need to show he actively campaigned to have the case re-opened when the police had closed it and were no longer investigating.   I doubt you can
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 04, 2019, 03:59:42 PM
Are you seriously suggesting you would have found them going jogging before they gave the police their first interview normal?
Did they go jogging beforevtheir first interview... If I'm going to accuse someone if a crime I want some real evidence
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 04, 2019, 05:29:51 PM
Did they delete their telephone calls before their first interview and why did they delete them at all is the relevant questions, I don't know what jogging has to do with it. There are no podcasts about jogging in the pipeline as far as I'm aware.
Al phone calls are recorded by the network provider so deletion makes no difference
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 04, 2019, 06:41:55 PM
Are you seriously suggesting you would have found them going jogging before they gave the police their first interview normal?
Who went jogging before their first police interview?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 04, 2019, 06:48:45 PM
You need to show he actively campaigned to have the case re-opened when the police had closed it and were no longer investigating.   I doubt you can

Were the programme makers lyimg to me? The little devils.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 04, 2019, 06:51:35 PM
Were the programme makers lyimg to me? The little devils.

So you can't provide a cite as expected
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 04, 2019, 06:55:27 PM
Al phone calls are recorded by the network provider so deletion makes no difference

I have deleted my messages but never, ever, my call history.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 04, 2019, 06:58:19 PM
I have deleted my messages but never, ever, my call history.

the network provider has all the call history..it cant be hidden
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 04, 2019, 06:59:54 PM
Mark Saunokonoko is going to be kind enough to explain it all to his listeners in detail on Monday.  I don't know what it is that motivates you to claim you might delete your telephone calls after learning your daughter had been abducted but it certainly does prove that we are all different.
what motivates me is understanding the truth
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 04, 2019, 07:06:37 PM
the network provider has all the call history..it cant be hidden

Did the McCanns know that?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 04, 2019, 07:25:29 PM
Were the programme makers lyimg to me? The little devils.
What exactly did the programme say?  Please give more detail and a cite if possible.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 04, 2019, 07:33:01 PM
Did the McCanns know that?

You are the one making the accusation is suspicious... I don't think it is
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 04, 2019, 07:33:57 PM
What exactly did the programme say?  Please give more detail and a cite if possible.

I think gunit simply thinks we should take her word for it
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 04, 2019, 10:29:50 PM
What exactly did the programme say?  Please give more detail and a cite if possible.

Perhaps you can still see it, I don't know. I don't remember the exact words, but I saw the disgust and pain on the faces of the family and the police when they reconstructed it.

Babes in the Wood – ITV
Thu, March 28 21:00

Read more at https://www.whatsontv.co.uk/events/babes-wood-itv-28-mar-19/#wgqRxxdidpqICfwW.99
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 04, 2019, 10:56:04 PM
Perhaps you can still see it, I don't know. I don't remember the exact words, but I saw the disgust and pain on the faces of the family and the police when they reconstructed it.

Babes in the Wood – ITV
Thu, March 28 21:00

Read more at https://www.whatsontv.co.uk/events/babes-wood-itv-28-mar-19/#wgqRxxdidpqICfwW.99
Reconstructed what?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on April 04, 2019, 11:34:56 PM
I watched a programme about Russell Bishop the other evening. He murdered two little girls in 1986 and was tried and acquitted in 1987 and it took until 2018 to finally convict him. Following his acquittal the parents of the girls and the police were horrified and angry when he campaigned for justice alongside them because they were convinced of his guilt. The theory was that he did it in order to convince people of his innocence.

Towards the bottom of this link a photograph of Russell Bishop handing out a flier appealing for information in relation to the Hadaway/Fellowes murder three years after his acquittal in his first trial.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6478641/Babes-Wood-killer-Russell-Bishop-guilty-1986-murders-two-nine-year-old-girls.html
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 04, 2019, 11:42:16 PM
Towards the bottom of this link a photograph of Russell Bishop handing out a flier appealing for information in relation to the Hadaway/Fellowes murder three years after his acquittal in his first trial.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6478641/Babes-Wood-killer-Russell-Bishop-guilty-1986-murders-two-nine-year-old-girls.html
A bit like Ian Huntley then.  Nice that you and G-Unit are comparing the behaviour of the McCanns to a convicted paedophile and child murderer though, very reasonable I’m sure.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 04, 2019, 11:44:15 PM
Towards the bottom of this link a photograph of Russell Bishop handing out a flier appealing for information in relation to the Hadaway/Fellowes murder three years after his acquittal in his first trial.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6478641/Babes-Wood-killer-Russell-Bishop-guilty-1986-murders-two-nine-year-old-girls.html

Thanks for that, Faith.  *&(+(+
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on April 04, 2019, 11:45:51 PM
A bit like Ian Huntley then.  Nice that you and G-Unit are comparing the behaviour of the McCanns to a convicted paedophile and child murderer though, very reasonable I’m sure.


Desperation does spring to mind.
How low can some go.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 04, 2019, 11:49:58 PM
A bit like Ian Huntley then.  Nice that you and G-Unit are comparing the behaviour of the McCanns to a convicted paedophile and child murderer though, very reasonable I’m sure.

No-ones comparing them, just demonstrating that campaigning proves nothing.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on April 04, 2019, 11:52:44 PM
No-ones comparing them, just demonstrating that campaigning proves nothing.

And why do you believe that Madeleine's parents campaigned for the investigation into her disappearance to be reopened?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on April 04, 2019, 11:56:49 PM

Desperation does spring to mind.
How low can some go.

As low as the above it seems.

We are told constantly that if the parents were guilty why did they keep appealing for a review. Bishop was guilty but appealed for information nonetheless even though he could easily just have slipped back into oblivion. Why do you think he did that ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 05, 2019, 12:09:11 AM
As low as the above it seems.

We are told constantly that if the parents were guilty why did they keep appealing for a review. Bishop was guilty but appealed for information nonetheless even though he could easily just have slipped back into oblivion. Why do you think he did that ?
Because he was a psychopath like Ian Huntley, who got a thrill out of drawing attention to himself and his crimes.  IMO.  Why do you think?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on April 05, 2019, 12:09:38 AM
I thought this thread was about podcasts ... silly me
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 05, 2019, 12:11:53 AM
No-ones comparing them, just demonstrating that campaigning proves nothing.
You are looking at the behaviour of a paedophile and child murderer and taking it as evidence that the McCanns may also have behaved similarly, just how appropriate is that really?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 05, 2019, 12:13:21 AM
I thought this thread was about podcasts ... silly me
Wrong, like all threads it’s about slagging off the parents, it always comes to that sooner or later.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on April 05, 2019, 08:36:17 AM
Wrong, like all threads it’s about slagging off the parents, it always comes to that sooner or later.

But there appears at attempts to slag off posters in some thread.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 05, 2019, 08:45:02 AM
And why do you believe that Madeleine's parents campaigned for the investigation into her disappearance to be reopened?

They didn't campaign for anything to be reopened. They campaigned for a review to be carried out.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on April 05, 2019, 09:04:45 AM
They didn't campaign for anything to be reopened. They campaigned for a review to be carried out.

And that review led to the investigation being reopened.
Why did they campaign for the review?
Don't you find it strange that they would do so if they were complicit in Madeleine's disappearance?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 05, 2019, 09:16:35 AM
You are looking at the behaviour of a paedophile and child murderer and taking it as evidence that the McCanns may also have behaved similarly, just how appropriate is that really?

A statement was made which I refuted, that's all. Whether people campaign or not tells us nothing.

snip/
"The mccabbs have driven forward the reinvestigation of the case.  .that doesn't sound like someone who was guilty and has got away with it"
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10605.msg518829#msg518829


Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on April 05, 2019, 10:37:59 AM
Al phone calls are recorded by the network provider so deletion makes no difference
As police require legal authorisation to obtain phone records in Portugal, of course deletion makes a difference.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 05, 2019, 10:40:26 AM
A statement was made which I refuted, that's all. Whether people campaign or not tells us nothing.

snip/
"The mccabbs have driven forward the reinvestigation of the case.  .that doesn't sound like someone who was guilty and has got away with it"
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10605.msg518829#msg518829
Of course it tells us something but you refuse to listen... You still haven't provided details of the claim you made to support your argument. ...I doubt you can
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 05, 2019, 11:10:07 AM
When you employ a guy to handle your PR that will quite clearly defend anyone, regardless of their guilt, it's for you to provide details of why anyone should believe a word him and his clients say?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRuUX6fsPVg&t=326s

My belief in the mccanns innocence is based on many things... Everything I've read and seen leads me to believe they are innocent..
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 05, 2019, 11:14:36 AM
Is their use of Clarence Mitchell to handle their PR lead one of those many things that leads you to that belief?

No
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on April 05, 2019, 11:15:51 AM
They didn't campaign for anything to be reopened. They campaigned for a review to be carried out.

They campaigned to get their daughter back ... it is a shame that normal procedural steps taken by her parents on Madeleine's behalf have entered the lexicon as discussed on another thread.

One wonders if Mark Saunokonoko's 'eagerly awaited' by some podcast ... will diversify into an investigation of criminals making phonecalls in Luz on the night Madeleine disappeared.
Or does he think the McCann's and their friends were the only ones using their phones to contact relatives at home with the devastating news of what had happened and clearing memories to enable receipt of important in coming calls?

I think this is make or break time for Saunokonoko ... is he really an investigative journalist ... or is he another run of the mill McCann troll with a more sophisticated method of delivery?
And who really listens to his podcasts anyway ... apart from the already converted?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 05, 2019, 11:16:43 AM
And that review led to the investigation being reopened.
Why did they campaign for the review?
Don't you find it strange that they would do so if they were complicit in Madeleine's disappearance?

They said a review would help find Madeleine, but I don't know why they thought it would.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 05, 2019, 11:21:10 AM
Fair enough. Can you tell me what the watched means below my avatar Davel?

It's not important
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 05, 2019, 11:23:37 AM
As police require legal authorisation to obtain phone records in Portugal, of course deletion makes a difference.

As does getting hold of a couple of what could be seen as burner phones.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on April 05, 2019, 11:25:56 AM
Can anyone tell me what the green "watched" sign means under my avatar please?
It means you have been given warning points, in this case it was an abusive post.
Next step is moderated then suspended. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on April 05, 2019, 11:28:38 AM
As does getting hold of a couple of what could be seen as burner phones.
Those the phones delivered to the police station for them?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 05, 2019, 11:33:16 AM
As police require legal authorisation to obtain phone records in Portugal, of course deletion makes a difference.

It's probably the same in the UK... But the police would also need a court order to seize their phones and examine them... So it wouldnt make a difference..

Where have all the phone records come from... Did the police get multiple court orders.. Perhaps you can explain... Or not
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 05, 2019, 11:34:43 AM
Can anyone tell me what the green "watched" sign means under my avatar please?

A moderator has decided that you've broken a forum rule and has issued a warning to you to behave. It appears on your profile too.

Warning Level: 10% (being watched)
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on April 05, 2019, 12:21:10 PM
They campaigned to get their daughter back ... it is a shame that normal procedural steps taken by her parents on Madeleine's behalf have entered the lexicon as discussed on another thread.

One wonders if Mark Saunokonoko's 'eagerly awaited' by some podcast ... will diversify into an investigation of criminals making phonecalls in Luz on the night Madeleine disappeared.
Or does he think the McCann's and their friends were the only ones using their phones to contact relatives at home with the devastating news of what had happened and clearing memories to enable receipt of important in coming calls?

I think this is make or break time for Saunokonoko ... is he really an investigative journalist ... or is he another run of the mill McCann troll with a more sophisticated method of delivery?
And who really listens to his podcasts anyway ... apart from the already converted?

He was top of the iTunes Charts so someone must have been listening to his podcast.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on April 05, 2019, 12:41:59 PM
They campaigned to get their daughter back ... it is a shame that normal procedural steps taken by her parents on Madeleine's behalf have entered the lexicon as discussed on another thread.

One wonders if Mark Saunokonoko's 'eagerly awaited' by some podcast ... will diversify into an investigation of criminals making phonecalls in Luz on the night Madeleine disappeared.
Or does he think the McCann's and their friends were the only ones using their phones to contact relatives at home with the devastating news of what had happened and clearing memories to enable receipt of important in coming calls?

I think this is make or break time for Saunokonoko ... is he really an investigative journalist ... or is he another run of the mill McCann troll with a more sophisticated method of delivery?
And who really listens to his podcasts anyway ... apart from the already converted?

Bolded bit,cite for  these said criminals please.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 05, 2019, 12:43:33 PM
Of course it tells us something but you refuse to listen... You still haven't provided details of the claim you made to support your argument. ...I doubt you can

It tells us they wanted a review. It dosn't tell is why, that's a matter of opinion.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on April 05, 2019, 12:45:11 PM
It's probably the same in the UK... But the police would also need a court order to seize their phones and examine them... So it wouldnt make a difference..

Where have all the phone records come from... Did the police get multiple court orders.. Perhaps you can explain... Or not
It's all in the PJ-Files, should you be interested enough to read them.

The phone records may be a step towards resolution in this case.  Who knows?

This is basic analysis.  The PJ had to request to get the land-line data for OC Reception, amongst many other records.

We live in the land of the free, not Disney make-believe.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 05, 2019, 12:59:26 PM
It's all in the PJ-Files, should you be interested enough to read them.

The phone records may be a step towards resolution in this case.  Who knows?

This is basic analysis.  The PJ had to request to get the land-line data for OC Reception, amongst many other records.

We live in the land of the free, not Disney make-believe.

As I said... The PJ would not be able to examine the mccanns phones without a court order... That applies to the UK to . So deleting phone calls really didn't make any difference
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on April 05, 2019, 01:02:29 PM
Just roll with it,we've all been there except some saintly one of course.

There aren't too many of those around here.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on April 05, 2019, 01:03:03 PM
As I said... The PJ would not be able to examine the mccanns phones without a court order... That applies to the UK to . So deleting phone calls really didn't make any difference

In the uk,if that's what you mean,police can download info from your phone without a warrant,also it seems deleted meassages can be gleamed.What happened to the phones from the Mccanns?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 05, 2019, 01:04:57 PM
It's all in the PJ-Files, should you be interested enough to read them.

The phone records may be a step towards resolution in this case.  Who knows?

This is basic analysis.  The PJ had to request to get the land-line data for OC Reception, amongst many other records.

We live in the land of the free, not Disney make-believe.

Have you read the files... It looks like the PJ had the details of the mccanns from vodaphone.. So when did they get the court order..


The CD issued by Ministerio Publico de Portimao in July 2008, contains a great deal of information on the mobile calls made and received by the 'Tapas 9' but it is dispersed, difficult to retrieve and with important pages and charts missing. The main documents of interest from the CD are:

* A 3 page report by the Policia Judiaria (undated, but probably 4th May 2007) listing call records retrieved from the handsets of Mr and Mrs McCann
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on April 05, 2019, 01:46:36 PM
Have you read the files... It looks like the PJ had the details of the mccanns from vodaphone.. So when did they get the court order..


The CD issued by Ministerio Publico de Portimao in July 2008, contains a great deal of information on the mobile calls made and received by the 'Tapas 9' but it is dispersed, difficult to retrieve and with important pages and charts missing. The main documents of interest from the CD are:

* A 3 page report by the Policia Judiaria (undated, but probably 4th May 2007) listing call records retrieved from the handsets of Mr and Mrs McCann
Retrieved from the handsets, not from the service provider.  The nigh-well deleted handsets.

And Kate was not on vodaphone, or even Vodafone.  Was she?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 05, 2019, 02:09:53 PM
Retrieved from the handsets, not from the service provider.  The nigh-well deleted handsets.

And Kate was not on vodaphone, or even Vodafone.  Was she?

The PJ did have scedules from vodaphone.. It's in the files..
Why did they not request details fron Kate's provider?... I'm also fairly sure, they could have retrieved the data from the handsets.  Perhaps another case, where they couldn't be bothered


* Schedules provided by Vodafone on 14th December 2007 covering a period from 29th April 2007 for Gerald McCann, David Payne, Rachael Mampilly, broken into four separate sections for incoming and outgoing telephone calls, incoming and outgoing SMS traffic
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 05, 2019, 02:20:56 PM
As I said... The PJ would not be able to examine the mccanns phones without a court order... That applies to the UK to . So deleting phone calls really didn't make any difference

Kate McCann's phone showed details of 39 calls between 25th and 27th April 2007 and of 2 calls between 28th April and 3rd May 2007. Was she too busy having fun to use her phone? No, she had deleted the details of around 40 calls. Nobody knows why because she's never, afaik, been asked for or volinteered an explanation. In my opinion it's perfectly acceptable to wonder. Prompting people to wonder is the dofference it made.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 05, 2019, 02:40:21 PM
Kate McCann's phone showed details of 39 calls between 25th and 27th April 2007 and of 2 calls between 28th April and 3rd May 2007. Was she too busy having fun to use her phone? No, she had deleted the details of around 40 calls. Nobody knows why because she's never, afaik, been asked for or volinteered an explanation. In my opinion it's perfectly acceptable to wonder. Prompting people to wonder is the dofference it made.

The point I am making is it makes no difference deleting calls as the information is still available
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on April 05, 2019, 02:47:24 PM
The PJ did have scedules from vodaphone.. It's in the files..
Why did they not request details fron Kate's provider?... I'm also fairly sure, they could have retrieved the data from the handsets.  Perhaps another case, where they couldn't be bothered


* Schedules provided by Vodafone on 14th December 2007 covering a period from 29th April 2007 for Gerald McCann, David Payne, Rachael Mampilly, broken into four separate sections for incoming and outgoing telephone calls, incoming and outgoing SMS traffic

 &%%6

They did request and they did obtain the traffic for Kate's service provider.  It's all in the PJ-Files.  Crikey, is there something difficult to understand that Kate was NOT on Vodafone?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 05, 2019, 03:11:19 PM
The point I am making is it makes no difference deleting calls as the information is still available

That's interesting but unless it was known to those doing the deleting it's not enlightening.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 05, 2019, 03:21:24 PM
That's interesting but unless it was known to those doing the deleting it's not enlightening.
So the suspicion from sceptics is that Kate deleted phone calls because they were incriminating... Yet the police have a record of all the deleted calls.. Did they find them incriminating...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on April 05, 2019, 04:31:52 PM
So the suspicion from sceptics is that Kate deleted phone calls because they were incriminating... Yet the police have a record of all the deleted calls.. Did they find them incriminating...
Why did she delete some phone calls, but leave others, has that ever been established?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 05, 2019, 04:36:53 PM
Why did she delete some phone calls, but leave others, has that ever been established?

Did the ones she deleted have any significance...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on April 05, 2019, 04:51:59 PM
Did the ones she deleted have any significance...

To her, perhaps.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on April 05, 2019, 05:03:22 PM
Did the ones she deleted have any significance...
How do I know? It wouldn't be particularly high on my list of priorities if my child had been apparently abducted.
1. Search around frantically
2. Get the police
3. Selectively delete phone log
4. Arrange search parties.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on April 05, 2019, 05:53:49 PM

"The f..king b........s have taken her"  KM
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on April 05, 2019, 05:55:30 PM
"The f....ing b......s have taken her"  KM
Flying Burritos?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 05, 2019, 06:31:59 PM
So the suspicion from sceptics is that Kate deleted phone calls because they were incriminating... Yet the police have a record of all the deleted calls.. Did they find them incriminating...

I don't know why she and her husband deleted rheir calls for that week. The reason could have been nothing to do with their daughter's disappearance. I can think of various different reasons and one of them is that it was conected.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 05, 2019, 06:45:07 PM
I don't know why she and her husband deleted rheir calls for that week. The reason could have been nothing to do with their daughter's disappearance. I can think of various different reasons and one of them is that it was conected.

Doesn't mean it was... And as the authorities have access to all deleted calls I can't see how deletion would have hidden anything
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 05, 2019, 06:48:08 PM
Given that most sceptics here believe Madeleine died accidentally some time after 5.30pm on May 3rd 2007 and was disposed of between 10pm and 10.25 pm, which are the incriminating deleted calls that trouble them so and why?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on April 05, 2019, 07:07:31 PM
Doesn't mean it was... And as the authorities have access to all deleted calls I can't see how deletion would have hidden anything
It's the act that is inexplicable. I can't think of an innocuous, reasonable explanation why desperate parents would do that.
And it would not be beyond the reason of a diligent investigating officer to want to know the reason. Hypothetically speaking, when all options were on the table (and may be they still are) and the investigation was in its infancy, upon discovering this fact, I can see why it would arouse suspicion. Because it's inexplicable in its context.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 05, 2019, 07:39:49 PM
Doesn't mean it was... And as the authorities have access to all deleted calls I can't see how deletion would have hidden anything

I don't know how to explain it to you.

What is significant is not what the authorities could or couldn't do, it's what those doing the deleting thought they could or could not do and more importantly perhaps, would or would not do.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on April 05, 2019, 08:17:37 PM
Anyone remember this Mark Saunokonoko thingy we're supposed to be discussing?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 05, 2019, 08:27:17 PM
Given that most sceptics here believe Madeleine died accidentally some time after 5.30pm on May 3rd 2007 and was disposed of between 10pm and 10.25 pm, which are the incriminating deleted calls that trouble them so and why?
Bump.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on April 05, 2019, 08:49:12 PM
I don't know how to explain it to you.

What is significant is not what the authorities could or couldn't do, it's what those doing the deleting thought they could or could not do and more importantly perhaps, would or would not do.

Do you know that I love you to bits.  I simply don't know why to say to you, and so I cannot help you.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on April 05, 2019, 09:45:25 PM
Then show people where, when and who I called a cow?
You can't reinstate a comment I never made, can you?

For anyone interested in joining and wishing to see site integrity, it's all there in the Moderation log.?
We're waiting!

La la la, I can't do that.  As no doubt you know

Oh and who is we?  We have all tried to accommodate you because you are at least interesting.  But do you seriously think that we don't know from whence you came?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 05, 2019, 09:48:12 PM
It's the act that is inexplicable. I can't think of an innocuous, reasonable explanation why desperate parents would do that.
And it would not be beyond the reason of a diligent investigating officer to want to know the reason. Hypothetically speaking, when all options were on the table (and may be they still are) and the investigation was in its infancy, upon discovering this fact, I can see why it would arouse suspicion. Because it's inexplicable in its context.

It is not inexplicable.. It's, explicable.. It us either innocent IR not.. Were the deletions significant.. No so it's innocent
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: John on April 05, 2019, 09:50:16 PM
Right guys, I've removed the argumentative spam and reinstated CM as I can find no reference to Daisy.

Please keep posts civil if you can.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on April 05, 2019, 10:17:08 PM

I watched the video. Harrowing so it was.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 05, 2019, 10:55:35 PM
The anomalies are very real, being wise after the fact has never been very clever.  I'm more interested in what happened with the crooked Spanish detectives though, that should make for interesting reading when the PJ get round to investigating it all.

Well they've had about 11 years.. No rush it seems... LOL.. when are you expecting some action.. LOL
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 05, 2019, 10:56:55 PM
It is not inexplicable.. It's, explicable.. It us either innocent IR not.. Were the deletions significant.. No so it's innocent

Are you claiming that the deletions were investigated and were not found to be sugnificant?


Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 05, 2019, 11:00:59 PM
Are you claiming that the deletions were investigated and were not found to be sugnificant?

I'm claiming there is no evidence the deletions were significant.. Not sugnificant..  Perhaps the pj were just to ineot to investigate them
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 05, 2019, 11:03:50 PM
Are you claiming that the deletions were investigated and were not found to be sugnificant?
Given that most sceptics here believe Madeleine died accidentally some time after 5.30pm on May 3rd 2007 and was disposed of between 10pm and 10.25 pm, which are the incriminating deleted calls that trouble them so and why?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on April 05, 2019, 11:07:13 PM
It's the act that is inexplicable. I can't think of an innocuous, reasonable explanation why desperate parents would do that.
And it would not be beyond the reason of a diligent investigating officer to want to know the reason. Hypothetically speaking, when all options were on the table (and may be they still are) and the investigation was in its infancy, upon discovering this fact, I can see why it would arouse suspicion. Because it's inexplicable in its context.
I wonder why the Judicial police totally ignored it then?  They didn't find it suspicious ... or they are not as skilled investigators as the internet sleuths who think they have all the answers?

Not to worry ... I'm sure all will be revealed on Monday when Mark broadcasts his latest

7 SEPTEMBER QUESTIONS TO KATE McCANN
11   Did you have a mobile phone with you at that moment?
22   Whom did you telephone after the discovery?
23   Did you call Sky News?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7542939.stm     See ... no worries there ... so why the fora song and dance about it?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 05, 2019, 11:28:11 PM
I'm claiming there is no evidence the deletions were significant.. Not sugnificant..  Perhaps the pj were just to ineot to investigate them

If there's no evidence one way or the other then you don't know if they were or not.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on April 06, 2019, 01:53:55 AM
Well they've had about 11 years.. No rush it seems... LOL.. when are you expecting some action.. LOL

It's coming just like BREXIT.    @)(++(*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 06, 2019, 07:27:32 AM
Are you claiming that the deletions were investigated and were not found to be sugnificant?
Which specific deletions (ie date and time) do you think are possibly significant and how do they fit in with the theory of accidental death and body occultation on the night of the 3rd?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 06, 2019, 08:05:05 AM
Which specific deletions (ie date and time) do you think are possibly significant and how do they fit in with the theory of accidental death and body occultation on the night of the 3rd?

It's not the individual calls, it's the decision to delete them which is puzzling.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on April 06, 2019, 09:24:34 AM
As we embark on anticipating yet another 'investigative questioning' of the McCanns and their friends via the podcast wheeze this time allegedly the resurrection of ... phone deletions and their significance ...

With reference to https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PHONE_TEXTS.htm it seems that the Judicial police had not the slightest interest in deletions of any kind from anyone's phone.
Their interest as far as the investigation was concerned was in the location and therefore as a tracking device.

It is very likely this is the sort of analysis which brought the latest arguidos in Madeleine's case to the attention of Scotland Yard
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on April 06, 2019, 09:37:31 AM
As we embark on anticipating yet another 'investigative questioning' of the McCanns and their friends via the podcast wheeze this time allegedly the resurrection of ... phone deletions and their significance ...

With reference to https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PHONE_TEXTS.htm it seems that the Judicial police had not the slightest interest in deletions of any kind from anyone's phone.
Their interest as far as the investigation was concerned was in the location and therefore as a tracking device.

It is very likely this is the sort of analysis which brought the latest arguidos in Madeleine's case to the attention of Scotland Yard

Are there some new ones, or are they ex-arguidos?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on April 06, 2019, 01:52:34 PM
If you study cellphones in the Luz area on 3 May 2007, you come to an excruciatingly simple conclusion.

They divide Luz into west Luz and east Luz, nothing more.

What is the importance?   &%%6 Lots.

Known phone calls locate Gerry and Kate in east Luz.  Tannerman was in east Luz.  Smithman on the other hand was in west Luz.

One ex-arguido lived in west Luz at the time.  Phone calls might actually clear him of involvement.

Another lived 'on the border', so I can't be sure whether his cellphone traffic would show up as east or west or indeed both.

Robert Murat claims he was in east Luz at the time.  Consequently, any cellphone traffic he had that night would have failed to rule him out.

Location information is an extremely crude tool.  Timing and deletions are much more informative.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on April 06, 2019, 02:33:30 PM
If you study cellphones in the Luz area on 3 May 2007, you come to an excruciatingly simple conclusion.

They divide Luz into west Luz and east Luz, nothing more.

What is the importance?   &%%6 Lots.

Known phone calls locate Gerry and Kate in east Luz.  Tannerman was in east Luz.  Smithman on the other hand was in west Luz.

One ex-arguido lived in west Luz at the time.  Phone calls might actually clear him of involvement.

Another lived 'on the border', so I can't be sure whether his cellphone traffic would show up as east or west or indeed both.

Robert Murat claims he was in east Luz at the time.  Consequently, any cellphone traffic he had that night would have failed to rule him out.

Location information is an extremely crude tool.  Timing and deletions are much more informative.


If Gerry, and his cellphone, had been in west Luz at about 10pm on the 3rd of May would police be able to tell using pings ?

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 06, 2019, 02:50:42 PM
If you study cellphones in the Luz area on 3 May 2007, you come to an excruciatingly simple conclusion.

They divide Luz into west Luz and east Luz, nothing more.

What is the importance?   &%%6 Lots.

Known phone calls locate Gerry and Kate in east Luz.  Tannerman was in east Luz.  Smithman on the other hand was in west Luz.

One ex-arguido lived in west Luz at the time.  Phone calls might actually clear him of involvement.

Another lived 'on the border', so I can't be sure whether his cellphone traffic would show up as east or west or indeed both.

Robert Murat claims he was in east Luz at the time.  Consequently, any cellphone traffic he had that night would have failed to rule him out.

Location information is an extremely crude tool.  Timing and deletions are much more informative.

Was there any more interest in the number described as 'Irish', do you know?

3rd May

this same number (unknown user), at  21h01 and 21h16 also received two calls from an Irish number, 353872... (whose user can be determined if justified).
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MOBILE_PHONE_ANALYSIS.htm

There seemed to be three numbers interacting, but 'Irish' doesn't suggest any of the arguidos OG were unterested in..
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on April 06, 2019, 03:05:07 PM

If Gerry, and his cellphone, had been in west Luz at about 10pm on the 3rd of May would police be able to tell using pings ?
Not by what I understand as 'pings'.  I consider those to be signals between a mast and a cellphone, whereby the network establishes which cell the phone is in.  In the old days, we called these 'handshakes'.

There is nothing in the PJ-Files to suggest that such pings were requested or supplied, or indeed that the networks even recorded them.

It would take a phone call or SMS to locate a person's cellphone from the records.

Need to run.  There is a doggy prog that has just started on TV.

 &^&*%
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on April 06, 2019, 03:23:26 PM
Not by what I understand as 'pings'.  I consider those to be signals between a mast and a cellphone, whereby the network establishes which cell the phone is in.  In the old days, we called these 'handshakes'.

There is nothing in the PJ-Files to suggest that such pings were requested or supplied, or indeed that the networks even recorded them.

It would take a phone call or SMS to locate a person's cellphone from the records.

Need to run.  There is a doggy prog that has just started on TV.

 &^&*%

It would be interesting to know if the networks did record them backin 2007 and if OG or the PJ had requested them this time. Wasn’t there talk of phone records being requested?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 06, 2019, 05:22:28 PM
It's not the individual calls, it's the decision to delete them which is puzzling.
If the calls that were deleted were from days before Madeleine’s supposed accidental death what relevance could they possibly have to the disappearance?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 06, 2019, 06:16:59 PM
Tuesday 1 May 2007

"Kate McCanns mobile was next activated six times, in rapid fire, between 22.16 and 22.27, after she had returned to Apartment 5A after dinner. The antenna traffic proves that these calls were not made to any of the 'Tapas 9'."

"Mrs Fenn, the McCanns neighbour, reported that Madeleine had cried for her father between 22.30 and 23.45. The evidence shows that Kate McCann was in Apartment 5A 14 minutes before Madeleine started crying. Tuesday 1st May 2007 is the only night (except, of course, for Thursday 3rd May 2007) that either of the McCanns or any of their friends made calls after dinner."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DELETED_CALLS.htm
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on April 06, 2019, 06:21:48 PM

If Gerry, and his cellphone, had been in west Luz at about 10pm on the 3rd of May would police be able to tell using pings ?
The cell tower pings indicate where the phone is located, not the location of the owner of the phone.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on April 06, 2019, 06:27:51 PM
Tuesday 1 May 2007

"Kate McCanns mobile was next activated six times, in rapid fire, between 22.16 and 22.27, after she had returned to Apartment 5A after dinner. The antenna traffic proves that these calls were not made to any of the 'Tapas 9'."

"Mrs Fenn, the McCanns neighbour, reported that Madeleine had cried for her father between 22.30 and 23.45. The evidence shows that Kate McCann was in Apartment 5A 14 minutes before Madeleine started crying. Tuesday 1st May 2007 is the only night (except, of course, for Thursday 3rd May 2007) that either of the McCanns or any of their friends made calls after dinner."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DELETED_CALLS.htm
Wouldn't the phone number (identity of the person) being called be also be available on the phone call analysis?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on April 06, 2019, 06:30:29 PM
As per every cell phone coverage in the world, there are 3 providers per cell.  Luz was no different.  Eeeek!

It's in the PJ-Files.

 &^^&*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on April 06, 2019, 06:44:33 PM
Some info on phone pings from 2007

https://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_columnists_ezorn/2007/12/cells-tracking.html
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 06, 2019, 07:32:02 PM
Tuesday 1 May 2007

"Kate McCanns mobile was next activated six times, in rapid fire, between 22.16 and 22.27, after she had returned to Apartment 5A after dinner. The antenna traffic proves that these calls were not made to any of the 'Tapas 9'."

"Mrs Fenn, the McCanns neighbour, reported that Madeleine had cried for her father between 22.30 and 23.45. The evidence shows that Kate McCann was in Apartment 5A 14 minutes before Madeleine started crying. Tuesday 1st May 2007 is the only night (except, of course, for Thursday 3rd May 2007) that either of the McCanns or any of their friends made calls after dinner."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DELETED_CALLS.htm

Can it be said that Kate McCann and/or her phone were in 5A between those times? I thought it wasn't possible to pin point someone with that level of accuracy?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on April 06, 2019, 07:35:53 PM
The cell tower pings indicate where the phone is located, not the location of the owner of the phone.

Although perhaps not recording location with pin point accuracy it would tie in with known locations and witness testimony thus identifying the whereabouts of the owner of the phone.

This diligence may or may not have been carried out in 2007 but it certainly was in 2008 https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PHONE_TEXTS.htm and no doubt verified in the initial scoping exercises carried out independent of each other by Scotland Yard and the Judicial police.

What on earth can Mark Saunokoko's forthcoming podcast add to the sum total of that knowledge (apart from perhaps adding to his pension fund?) unless he is thinking 'burglar or intruder' and Scotland yard have already dealt with that one too.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on April 06, 2019, 08:18:35 PM
Although perhaps not recording location with pin point accuracy it would tie in with known locations and witness testimony thus identifying the whereabouts of the owner of the phone.

This diligence may or may not have been carried out in 2007 but it certainly was in 2008 https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PHONE_TEXTS.htm and no doubt verified in the initial scoping exercises carried out independent of each other by Scotland Yard and the Judicial police.

What on earth can Mark Saunokoko's forthcoming podcast add to the sum total of that knowledge (apart from perhaps adding to his pension fund?) unless he is thinking 'burglar or intruder' and Scotland yard have already dealt with that one too.

What did Summers have to add ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 06, 2019, 09:11:40 PM
Although perhaps not recording location with pin point accuracy it would tie in with known locations and witness testimony thus identifying the whereabouts of the owner of the phone.

This diligence may or may not have been carried out in 2007 but it certainly was in 2008 https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PHONE_TEXTS.htm and no doubt verified in the initial scoping exercises carried out independent of each other by Scotland Yard and the Judicial police.

What on earth can Mark Saunokoko's forthcoming podcast add to the sum total of that knowledge (apart from perhaps adding to his pension fund?) unless he is thinking 'burglar or intruder' and Scotland yard have already dealt with that one too.

I rhink they could tell if a phone was in the area of the Tapas complex as opposed to the area of Kelly's, but not which road or building they were in.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on April 06, 2019, 10:06:17 PM
I rhink they could tell if a phone was in the area of the Tapas complex as opposed to the area of Kelly's, but not which road or building they were in.
  ... and if the owner of the phone was corroborated as being in the area of the tapas or in the area of Kelly's when the phone was the files tell us https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PHONE_TEXTS.htm the Judicial police accepted that as confirmation of the whereabouts of the individual concerned.

Snip
In the period between this last day [of May] and 30 June, are records that indicate the presence of the Payne couple, again, in our country. The return occurred on 29th, and this time they remained in Portugal until 2 July.

Meanwhile the parents of Madeleine had travelled to various places in the Algarve, namely: Burgau, Sagres, Budens, Portimao, among others, having their "base" at Luz.

They went more than once to the airport to receive or to bid farewell to friends and / or relatives.

Nor did they always travel in the company of each other, but during this month of June they made two trips out of Portugal, one between 5th and 7th, and another between 10th and 12th.

In the period from 1 to 31 July, the McCanns maintain a routine similar to the previous month. They continue to travel between Luz, Portimao, Faro airport, Lagos and other places.
________________________________________________________________

RECOMMENDATIONS

To determine either from the couple, or from other sources, where they were in the periods between ...

To determine from the various television stations and print media, if the coverage of the activities of the McCann couple occurred for 24 hours a day, and whether, if so, they were followed in the different trips they made.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 06, 2019, 11:11:21 PM
Can it be said that Kate McCann and/or her phone were in 5A between those times? I thought it wasn't possible to pin point someone with that level of accuracy?

I have no doubt KM's answer to that question would be 'No Comment'! Nothing in her book of truth lol about this mobile activity but it's another one of those coincidences that it happened just before crying was reported in that apartment. When the going gets tough we see her true colours.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on April 06, 2019, 11:42:36 PM
I have no doubt KM's answer to that question would be 'No Comment'! Nothing in her book of truth lol about this mobile activity but it's another one of those coincidences that it happened just before crying was reported in that apartment. When the going gets tough we see her true colours.
More speculation.

No it would not have been "no comment".

Under Portuguese law ... a witness is obliged to answer questions asked.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on April 07, 2019, 12:05:40 AM
The cell tower pings indicate where the phone is located, not the location of the owner of the phone.

If the McCanns had the latest model of mobile in 2007, chipped with GPS, their precise location could have been tracked & recorded in the database.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 07, 2019, 07:58:53 AM
  ... and if the owner of the phone was corroborated as being in the area of the tapas or in the area of Kelly's when the phone was the files tell us https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PHONE_TEXTS.htm the Judicial police accepted that as confirmation of the whereabouts of the individual concerned.

Snip
In the period between this last day [of May] and 30 June, are records that indicate the presence of the Payne couple, again, in our country. The return occurred on 29th, and this time they remained in Portugal until 2 July.

Meanwhile the parents of Madeleine had travelled to various places in the Algarve, namely: Burgau, Sagres, Budens, Portimao, among others, having their "base" at Luz.

They went more than once to the airport to receive or to bid farewell to friends and / or relatives.

Nor did they always travel in the company of each other, but during this month of June they made two trips out of Portugal, one between 5th and 7th, and another between 10th and 12th.

In the period from 1 to 31 July, the McCanns maintain a routine similar to the previous month. They continue to travel between Luz, Portimao, Faro airport, Lagos and other places.
________________________________________________________________

RECOMMENDATIONS

To determine either from the couple, or from other sources, where they were in the periods between ...

To determine from the various television stations and print media, if the coverage of the activities of the McCann couple occurred for 24 hours a day, and whether, if so, they were followed in the different trips they made.

Of course a phone and it's owner might not be together, or they might have another phone.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on April 07, 2019, 09:11:06 AM
Of course a phone and it's owner might not be together, or they might have another phone.

Uh-huh ... which is why the Judicial police cross referenced.

For example ... phone signal picked up in area of Kelly's bar at 4pm + witness statement saying the phone owner was there at 4pm + dated and timed till receipt = the high probability the phone owner and phone were in Kelly's bar at 4pm.
Phone signal picked up at Estrela da Luz at 4:16pm + CCTV footage of phone owner at that location = the high probability that the phone owner and phone had left Kelly's to return home or to Hugo's.

In fact more than a probability ... a certainty.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 07, 2019, 10:34:51 AM
Uh-huh ... which is why the Judicial police cross referenced.

For example ... phone signal picked up in area of Kelly's bar at 4pm + witness statement saying the phone owner was there at 4pm + dated and timed till receipt = the high probability the phone owner and phone were in Kelly's bar at 4pm.
Phone signal picked up at Estrela da Luz at 4:16pm + CCTV footage of phone owner at that location = the high probability that the phone owner and phone had left Kelly's to return home or to Hugo's.

In fact more than a probability ... a certainty.

Were there any such certainties?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on April 07, 2019, 10:44:16 AM
Were there any such certainties?

Given the lack of CCTV around the place, it doesn't seem very likely.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Carana on April 07, 2019, 02:53:38 PM
Given the lack of CCTV around the place, it doesn't seem very likely.

There was a CCTV camera in that area, one of very few, contrary to early "reports". Why didn't he ensure that his officers checked at the time? Luz is hardly a sprawling metropolis.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on April 07, 2019, 03:11:38 PM
There was a CCTV camera in that area, one of very few, contrary to early "reports". Why didn't he ensure that his officers checked at the time? Luz is hardly a sprawling metropolis.

Which area did you have in mind?  Where was it pointed?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 07, 2019, 03:26:44 PM
There was a CCTV camera in that area, one of very few, contrary to early "reports". Why didn't he ensure that his officers checked at the time? Luz is hardly a sprawling metropolis.

He? I was watching a crime drama the other evening and the UK police don't seem to be told every move they must make. Sometimes they're sent to check things, other times they use their initiative. Is the PJ different in the way it works?

Not only that, it's illegal in Portugal to film the public highway, so their policemen don't focus on CCTV cameras like the UK polce do. In fact no-one knows if that camera was trained on the highway or not, which would be nore likely.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on April 07, 2019, 03:37:12 PM
He? I was watching a crime drama the other evening and the UK police don't seem to be told every move they must make. Sometimes they're sent to check things, other times they use their initiative. Is the PJ different in the way it works?

Not only that, it's illegal in Portugal to film the public highway, so their policemen don't focus on CCTV cameras like the UK polce do. In fact no-one knows if that camera was trained on the highway or not, which would be nore likely.

I believe that the CCTV wasn't trained on the highway, but only on the entrance to the Hotel.  According to The Law.

I don't have an opinion on the usefulness of this.  But if Amaral had any knowledge of The Law at the time, then why did he think that The PJ could have found something if they had got there a bit sooner?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on April 07, 2019, 04:01:35 PM
There was a CCTV camera in that area, one of very few, contrary to early "reports". Why didn't he ensure that his officers checked at the time? Luz is hardly a sprawling metropolis.

** snip
‘I believe that the person carrying a child in his arms was captured on film from that very camera,’ he said.

‘I asked my officers to gather all the CCTV footage in Luz but, by the time they got to this hotel, the film from this camera had been wiped over.
http://metro.co.uk/2013/10/19/madeleine-mccann-cctv-footage-of-suspect-was-deleted-says-goncalo-amaral-4152295/

Very well discussed previously on the forum on this thread ... http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1401.msg40070#msg40070
(http://i.imgur.com/DrwTEhg.jpg)
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 07, 2019, 04:11:03 PM
I believe that the CCTV wasn't trained on the highway, but only on the entrance to the Hotel.  According to The Law.

I don't have an opinion on the usefulness of this.  But if Amaral had any knowledge of The Law at the time, then why did he think that The PJ could have found something if they had got there a bit sooner?

The only reason I can think of is that he was tryng to defend himself against all his critics.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Carana on April 07, 2019, 04:50:09 PM
Which area did you have in mind?  Where was it pointed?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1401.0
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 07, 2019, 05:10:52 PM
** snip
‘I believe that the person carrying a child in his arms was captured on film from that very camera,’ he said.

‘I asked my officers to gather all the CCTV footage in Luz but, by the time they got to this hotel, the film from this camera had been wiped over.
http://metro.co.uk/2013/10/19/madeleine-mccann-cctv-footage-of-suspect-was-deleted-says-goncalo-amaral-4152295/

Very well discussed previously on the forum on this thread ... http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1401.msg40070#msg40070
(http://i.imgur.com/DrwTEhg.jpg)

Fortunately nine eye witnesses had a closer view than that camera.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on April 07, 2019, 05:11:01 PM
The only reason I can think of is that he was tryng to defend himself against all his critics.

I can absolutely agree with that.  But is this supposed to compute with a serious investigation?  Amaral bent the truth to protect himself.  He tried to suggest that Gerry McCann would have been seen, when in fact it was not possible, either which way.

Amaral was a desperate man by then, and I actually feel sorry for him.

I liked him better when he was an untidy copper who was having a hard time.  God knows who suggested that he should buy good suits and that ridiculous hat.  Forget the bloody earring.

At that point in time he was doing exactly what was expected of him.  A copper in a fascist state.  How could anyone really blame him for doing what he had so long been taught to do?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 07, 2019, 08:44:04 PM
I can absolutely agree with that.  But is this supposed to compute with a serious investigation?  Amaral bent the truth to protect himself.  He tried to suggest that Gerry McCann would have been seen, when in fact it was not possible, either which way.

Amaral was a desperate man by then, and I actually feel sorry for him.

I liked him better when he was an untidy copper who was having a hard time.  God knows who suggested that he should buy good suits and that ridiculous hat.  Forget the bloody earring.

At that point in time he was doing exactly what was expected of him.  A copper in a fascist state.  How could anyone really blame him for doing what he had so long been taught to do?

I think you'll find everyone lies Eleanor, including policemen wherever they are based. The point in my opinion is that no-one will ever know if that CCTV would have been useful or not. The only reason it gets mentioned is to discredit the PJ imo.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on April 07, 2019, 08:54:45 PM
I think you'll find everyone lies Eleanor, including policemen wherever they are based. The point in my opinion is that no-one will ever know if that CCTV would have been useful or not. The only reason it gets mentioned is to discredit the PJ imo.

This controversy arose how from a clearly hypothetical situation I posted to demonstrate how phone pings and the location of individuals might be verified ????? in relation to Mark Saunokonoko's forthcoming podcast????

                                                                    %#&%4%
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on April 07, 2019, 09:00:28 PM
I think you'll find everyone lies Eleanor, including policemen wherever they are based. The point in my opinion is that no-one will ever know if that CCTV would have been useful or not. The only reason it gets mentioned is to discredit the PJ imo.

I don't lie.  I have never felt the need to do so.  I am not afraid of anyone.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on April 07, 2019, 09:03:42 PM
I don't lie.  I have never felt the need to do so.  I am not afraid of anyone.

I don’t believe you would purposely hurt someone’s feelings when a telling white lie would stop that happening.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on April 07, 2019, 09:10:42 PM
I don't lie.  I have never felt the need to do so.  I am not afraid of anyone.

Your children never got presents from father christmas?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on April 07, 2019, 09:56:32 PM
I don’t believe you would purposely hurt someone’s feelings when a telling white lie would stop that happening.

Actually, I would have found  even that difficult.  But then it depends on who you think you are.  But then I have been fortunate

I have never had to to lie to any of my children, or thought that I needed to.

However,  Time passes and things are looking a bit shitty at the moment.  I haven't had a word from either of my eldest two sons for over a year now.  Actually, a bit longer, but lets not split  hairs.

They will do as they please.  And I will be alright, because this is who I am.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on April 07, 2019, 10:04:35 PM
Your children never got presents from father christmas?

My children got presents for many a long year from their father who never bought then anything.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 07, 2019, 10:05:55 PM
I don’t believe you would purposely hurt someone’s feelings when a telling white lie would stop that happening.

Del
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 07, 2019, 10:08:57 PM
This controversy arose how from a clearly hypothetical situation I posted to demonstrate how phone pings and the location of individuals might be verified ????? in relation to Mark Saunokonoko's forthcoming podcast????

                                                                    %#&%4%

Are you accusing me of something untoward?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on April 08, 2019, 09:33:16 AM
The missing calls.

https://omny.fm/shows/maddie/the-missing-calls
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 08, 2019, 01:18:50 PM
There is a discussion pf the deletions of the call history and particular attention is paid to Tuesday 1st May when Kate McCann's phone was activated six times between 22:16 and 22:27. It isn't known if these were incomiing or outgoing texts or messages. According to Clarence Mitchell none of the T9 took phones or watches with then to dinner at the Tapas Restaurant which, if true, suggests Kate wasn't in that location at the time. She says she left there at 11pm with her husband, however.

The aerobics instructor said she was at the table that evening from 9:30 to 9:50 and;

 during this time one of the chairs was always empty, that of someone who had had dinner and left
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/NAJOUA_CHEKAYA.htm

She didn't remember seeing Kate McCann at the table, but the group said the empty chair was Russell O'Brien's.

Mrs Fenn said a child cried in 5A from 10:30 to 11:45, but both parents deny this.They say their female twin cried breifly after midnight.

At the beginning of this podcast an American investigator tells Mark S that he discovered that there was no regular checking on the group's children according to the Tapas staff and that the group definitely didn't have sight of the apartment door facing the Tapas. This man thinks they all made up the checking routine because they were worried about admitting that they didn't check their children. He thought there was an abduction because there wasn't time to dispose of a body.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on April 08, 2019, 01:38:05 PM
There is a discussion pf the deletions of the call history and particular attention is paid to Tuesday 1st May when Kate McCann's phone was activated six times between 22:16 and 22:27. It isn't known if these were incomiing or outgoing texts or messages. According to Clarence Mitchell none of the T9 took phones or watches with then to dinner at the Tapas Restaurant which, if true, suggests Kate wasn't in that location at the time. She says she left there at 11pm with her husband, however.

The aerobics instructor said she was at the table that evening from 9:30 to 9:50 and;

 during this time one of the chairs was always empty, that of someone who had had dinner and left
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/NAJOUA_CHEKAYA.htm

She didn't remember seeing Kate McCann at the table, but the group said the empty chair was Russell O'Brien's.

Mrs Fenn said a child cried in 5A from 10:30 to 11:45, but both parents deny this.They say their female twin cried breifly after midnight.

At the beginning of this podcast an American investigator tells Mark S that he discovered that there was no regular checking on the group's children according to the Tapas staff and that the group definitely didn't have sight of the apartment door facing the Tapas. This man thinks they all made up the checking routine because they were worried about admitting that they didn't check their children. He thought there was an abduction because there wasn't time to dispose of a body.

First of all, I realise you are summarising a podcast.  I have not yet listened to any.  I am waiting for the series to end, much as I did with Netflix.

That being said, how accurate is the podcast compared to reality?  The time for nearest body occultation was under 2 minutes out and under 2 minutes return, and the McCanns had passed this spot at least 4 times.  That's a 3 to 4 minute round trip.

I'll make up my mind on Mr Saunokonoko at the end of his opus magnus.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 08, 2019, 01:59:12 PM
(https://imageresizer.static9.net.au/-FFKDMyLLerkt0Ht8JBafSaso0E=/800x0/smart/http%3A%2F%2Fprod.static9.net.au%2Ffs%2Fe0efc3a4-3172-489a-92ce-9b3faf538cb6)

(https://imageresizer.static9.net.au/j4bU7Viu63dtpkQXeQDsHYKQzxc=/800x0/smart/http%3A%2F%2Fprod.static9.net.au%2Ffs%2F1bdb53e2-a16c-4448-b03f-60b53da1d500)

(https://imageresizer.static9.net.au/TZaSa5fkSn87srr-JVL5pYC1V_w=/800x0/smart/http%3A%2F%2Fprod.static9.net.au%2Ffs%2F6d7d24c7-cc90-4ac7-a6f4-488aa421b730)

https://www.9news.com.au/world/madeleine-mccann-rental-car-trips-cell-phone-pings/9ad55a03-60b9-4b80-a727-10068372d993
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on April 08, 2019, 03:00:30 PM
(https://imageresizer.static9.net.au/-FFKDMyLLerkt0Ht8JBafSaso0E=/800x0/smart/http%3A%2F%2Fprod.static9.net.au%2Ffs%2Fe0efc3a4-3172-489a-92ce-9b3faf538cb6)

(https://imageresizer.static9.net.au/j4bU7Viu63dtpkQXeQDsHYKQzxc=/800x0/smart/http%3A%2F%2Fprod.static9.net.au%2Ffs%2F1bdb53e2-a16c-4448-b03f-60b53da1d500)

(https://imageresizer.static9.net.au/TZaSa5fkSn87srr-JVL5pYC1V_w=/800x0/smart/http%3A%2F%2Fprod.static9.net.au%2Ffs%2F6d7d24c7-cc90-4ac7-a6f4-488aa421b730)

https://www.9news.com.au/world/madeleine-mccann-rental-car-trips-cell-phone-pings/9ad55a03-60b9-4b80-a727-10068372d993

OK, we are back to 'pings'.

Think it through.

There has to be a mechanism by which a service provider can locate your cellphone in a particular cell.  Otherwise, you and the network don't connect.

Just one example from the above.  You fly in to Faro airport, with your phone turned off, as per flight regulations.  After landing, you turn your phone on again.  How does the network know how to send you messages stacked up during your flight?  It uses pings.  Your handset and your service provider's mast 'talk' to each other.

The network is controlled by pings.  I cannot remember any such pings appearing in the PJ-Files.  The network has no need, other than the current cell location.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 08, 2019, 03:42:35 PM
First of all, I realise you are summarising a podcast.  I have not yet listened to any.  I am waiting for the series to end, much as I did with Netflix.

That being said, how accurate is the podcast compared to reality?  The time for nearest body occultation was under 2 minutes out and under 2 minutes return, and the McCanns had passed this spot at least 4 times.  That's a 3 to 4 minute round trip.

I'll make up my mind on Mr Saunokonoko at the end of his opus magnus.

The evidence of Miss Chekaya gave me food for thought. She mentions one vacant chair with what seems to be a finished plate of dinner associated wuth it. According to Jane and Russell he was absent and Jane took his meal to him. So Jane appears to have had time to eat her meal, take part in a quiz, visit Russell, wait for him to eat and bring his empty plate back, all before 9:30.

She doesn't mention Russell, but she doesn't remember seeing Kate McCann at the rable. According to Kate there were four checks on the children that evening; two by her and two by Gerry. They were done at 9, 9:30, 10 and 10:30. Gerry was at the table at 9:30 speaking to Najoua, so Kate must have gone to check the children.Therefore there should have been two enpty chairs at 9:30.

If Kate went to check the children at around 9:30 why was she away for 20 minutes and why wasn't that mentioned?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on April 08, 2019, 05:47:20 PM
The evidence of Miss Chekaya gave me food for thought. She mentions one vacant chair with what seems to be a finished plate of dinner associated wuth it. According to Jane and Russell he was absent and Jane took his meal to him. So Jane appears to have had time to eat her meal, take part in a quiz, visit Russell, wait for him to eat and bring his empty plate back, all before 9:30.

She doesn't mention Russell, but she doesn't remember seeing Kate McCann at the rable. According to Kate there were four checks on the children that evening; two by her and two by Gerry. They were done at 9, 9:30, 10 and 10:30. Gerry was at the table at 9:30 speaking to Najoua, so Kate must have gone to check the children.Therefore there should have been two enpty chairs at 9:30.

If Kate went to check the children at around 9:30 why was she away for 20 minutes and why wasn't that mentioned?
Kate could have just moved to another table, to get away from Gerry's "bad behaviour". 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on April 08, 2019, 05:52:47 PM
There is a discussion pf the deletions of the call history and particular attention is paid to Tuesday 1st May when Kate McCann's phone was activated six times between 22:16 and 22:27. It isn't known if these were incomiing or outgoing texts or messages. According to Clarence Mitchell none of the T9 took phones or watches with then to dinner at the Tapas Restaurant which, if true, suggests Kate wasn't in that location at the time. She says she left there at 11pm with her husband, however.

The aerobics instructor said she was at the table that evening from 9:30 to 9:50 and;

 during this time one of the chairs was always empty, that of someone who had had dinner and left
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/NAJOUA_CHEKAYA.htm

She didn't remember seeing Kate McCann at the table, but the group said the empty chair was Russell O'Brien's.

Mrs Fenn said a child cried in 5A from 10:30 to 11:45, but both parents deny this.They say their female twin cried breifly after midnight.

At the beginning of this podcast an American investigator tells Mark S that he discovered that there was no regular checking on the group's children according to the Tapas staff and that the group definitely didn't have sight of the apartment door facing the Tapas. This man thinks they all made up the checking routine because they were worried about admitting that they didn't check their children. He thought there was an abduction because there wasn't time to dispose of a body.
The PJ statements don't support what the waiters say to the American investigator.  Do we have to think the staff lied to the PJ? 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 08, 2019, 07:50:34 PM
Kate could have just moved to another table, to get away from Gerry's "bad behaviour".

What bad behaviour?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on April 08, 2019, 08:02:24 PM
Kate could have just moved to another table, to get away from Gerry's "bad behaviour".

I can't see her sitting by herself at another table. More likely to storm off in a huff. IMO
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 08, 2019, 09:12:01 PM
I can't see her sitting by herself at another table. More likely to storm off in a huff. IMO

Najoua noticed nothing unusual, so whatever happened it's reasonable to assume that no-one reacted to Kate's absence.  Not even her husband, although he says he was going to go and check on her after 10 minutes on Thursday evening.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 08, 2019, 10:37:30 PM
Gerry's flirting may explain why Kate left and went back to the apartment and then sent texts to her friend. The next night she slept in the spare bed so that could be the underlying reason.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 08, 2019, 11:02:14 PM
Gerry's flirting may explain why Kate left and went back to the apartment and then sent texts to her friend. The next night she slept in the spare bed so that could be the underlying reason.

Najoua could be wrong, of course, and Kate could have been at the table. If she was, though, she wasn't checking her kids at 9:30 as she claimed. .
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 08, 2019, 11:04:52 PM
No they weren't checking that often as told by the tapas staff that were interviewed. Some stuff in the latest Maddie podcast about it.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on April 08, 2019, 11:30:57 PM
I can't see her sitting by herself at another table. More likely to storm off in a huff. IMO
She wouldn't want to entirely miss out on the meal and the wine.   Keep an eye on proceedings too.  [All in my imagination.]

There is a conversation where they remind Gerry that "Kate is not that bad" (maybe not the exact quote).  But in truth she is rather flat chested when compared to Najoua.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on April 08, 2019, 11:33:48 PM
No they weren't checking that often as told by the tapas staff that were interviewed. Some stuff in the latest Maddie podcast about it.

In other words he can't be sure, or even worse he doesn't know.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 09, 2019, 12:07:13 AM
She wouldn't want to entirely miss out on the meal and the wine.   Keep an eye on proceedings too.  [All in my imagination.]

There is a conversation where they remind Gerry that "Kate is not that bad" (maybe not the exact quote).  But in truth she is rather flat chested when compared to Najoua.

According to Najoua they had finished eating before 9:30, so she had eaten. According to Kate's book Gerry left abruptly on Wednesday night leaving her standing there. She says that was just Gerry being Gerry, he felt tired so he went off to bed. David seemed to feel the need to comment and called after him that she (Kate) wasn't that bad.  Why he said that I don't know, but it could be because he saw Gerry's departure as a reaction to friction with Kate rather than a sudden overwhelming desire for sleep.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on April 09, 2019, 12:29:59 AM
According to Najoua they had finished eating before 9:30, so she had eaten. According to Kate's book Gerry left abruptly on Wednesday night leaving her standing there. She says that was just Gerry being Gerry, he felt tired so he went off to bed. David seemed to feel the need to comment and called after him that she (Kate) wasn't that bad.  Why he said that I don't know, but it could be because he saw Gerry's departure as a reaction to friction with Kate rather than a sudden overwhelming desire for sleep.
Who knows but it wasn't one of their better times together by the sound of it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 09, 2019, 07:17:56 AM
She wouldn't want to entirely miss out on the meal and the wine.   Keep an eye on proceedings too.  [All in my imagination.]

There is a conversation where they remind Gerry that "Kate is not that bad" (maybe not the exact quote).  But in truth she is rather flat chested when compared to Najoua.
WTF??
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on April 09, 2019, 08:35:52 AM
All this drinking and making merry until either 11pm or 12, depending on who you ask, while the two babies and an infant are left in an empty apartment to fend for themselves  - repeatedly. Sickening behaviour.
I don't care if they came and went every half hour, it's negligent at best. I'm not surprised there were reports of persistent crying; Maddie was probably beside herself with fear and separation anxiety, whilst potentially consoling her siblings. If one child wakes in a dark, empty apartment, in a strange place, then they all wake up.
What if she needed a wee? What if she'd actually wee'd the bed? 'Customary behaviour for Brits' my arse.

The conjecture surrounding the texts / flirting / argument is irrelevant, apart from showing the established dinner routine.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 09, 2019, 08:47:36 AM
All this drinking and making merry until either 11pm or 12, depending on who you ask, while the two babies and an infant are left in an empty apartment to fend for themselves  - repeatedly. Sickening behaviour.
I don't care if they came and went every half hour, it's negligent at best. I'm not surprised there were reports of persistent crying; Maddie was probably beside herself with fear and separation anxiety, whilst potentially consoling her siblings. If one child wakes in a dark, empty apartment, in a strange place, then they all wake up.
What if she needed a wee? What if she'd actually wee'd the bed? 'Customary behaviour for Brits' my arse.

The conjecture surrounding the texts / flirting / argument is irrelevant, apart from showing the established dinner routine.

Most people put their children first; it's ckear they didn't imo.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on April 09, 2019, 08:58:49 AM
Most people put their children first; it's ckear they didn't imo.
I know this aspect generally gets defended and, personally, I don't know what happened afterwards. But to leave your kids like that once would be neglect in my opinion and is an offence in the UK:
The law doesn’t say an age when you can leave a child on their own, but it’s an offence to leave a child alone if it places them at risk. These kids were clearly, demonstrably at risk, as one of them isn't here any more as a result. And the NSPCC clearly don't think it's 'normal'.
The National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children (NSPCC) says:

children under 12 are rarely mature enough to be left alone for a long period of time
children under 16 shouldn’t be left alone overnight
babies, toddlers and very young children should never be left alone
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on April 09, 2019, 09:02:46 AM
I know this aspect generally gets defended and, personally, I don't know what happened afterwards. But to leave your kids like that once would be neglect in my opinion and is an offence in the UK:
The law doesn’t say an age when you can leave a child on their own, but it’s an offence to leave a child alone if it places them at risk. These kids were clearly, demonstrably at risk, as one of them isn't here any more as a result. And the NSPCC clearly don't think it's 'normal'.
The National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children (NSPCC) says:

children under 12 are rarely mature enough to be left alone for a long period of time
children under 16 shouldn’t be left alone overnight
babies, toddlers and very young children should never be left alone

Are their recommendations law?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on April 09, 2019, 09:09:05 AM
Are their recommendations law?
No, but it's an offence to leave your kids alone at risk. That's law.
Maybe they were aware of the law, but decided it didn't apply in Portugal.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on April 09, 2019, 10:04:38 AM
No, but it's an offence to leave your kids alone at risk. That's law.
Maybe they were aware of the law, but decided it didn't apply in Portugal.

The Portuguese Attorney General referred to the situation regarding the law in Portugal when he decided that ...
Snip
It seems evident to us and because the files contain enough elements for such, that the crime of exposure or abandonment according to article 138 of the Penal Code can be eliminated from that range:
"1 - Whoever places another person's life in danger,
• a) By exposing her in a location where she is subject to a situation from which she, on her own, cannot defend herself against; or
• b) Abandoning her without defence, whenever the agent had the duty to guard her, to watch over her or to assist her;"
This legal type of crime is only fulfilled with intent, and this intent has to cover the creation of danger to the victim's life, as well as the absence of a capacity to defend herself, on the victim's behalf.
In the case of the files and facing the elements that were collected it is evident that none of the arguidos Gerald or Kate acted with intent.
The parents could not foresee that in the resort that they chose to spend a brief holiday, they could place the life of any of their children in danger, nor was that demanded from them: it was located in a peaceful area, where most of the residents are foreign citizens of the same nationality and without any known history of this type of criminality.
The parents didn't even represent the realisation of the fact, they trusted that everything would go well, as it had gone on the previous evenings, thus not equating, nor was it demanded from them, the possibility of the occurrence of an abduction of any of the children that were in their respective apartments.
Reinforcing what was said is also the fact that despite leaving their daughter alone with her siblings in the apartment during more or less dilated moments, it is certain that in any case they checked on them.
http://genreith.de/pj-archiving-2008.pdf


That was the Portuguese legal position in 2008 ... what has changed since then to prompt discussion in 2019 ... a podcast?? which I doubt sheds any light on what happened to Madeleine or adds anything to the present day investigations to find her.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on April 09, 2019, 10:18:58 AM
No, but it's an offence to leave your kids alone at risk. That's law.
Maybe they were aware of the law, but decided it didn't apply in Portugal.
Portuguese law would apply in Portugal.  But I did read that they could apply UK law to events in Portugal.  I'd have to find it again, for the exact wording.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on April 09, 2019, 10:21:46 AM
The Portuguese Attorney General referred to the situation regarding the law in Portugal when he decided that ...
Snip
It seems evident to us and because the files contain enough elements for such, that the crime of exposure or abandonment according to article 138 of the Penal Code can be eliminated from that range:
"1 - Whoever places another person's life in danger,
• a) By exposing her in a location where she is subject to a situation from which she, on her own, cannot defend herself against; or
• b) Abandoning her without defence, whenever the agent had the duty to guard her, to watch over her or to assist her;"
This legal type of crime is only fulfilled with intent, and this intent has to cover the creation of danger to the victim's life, as well as the absence of a capacity to defend herself, on the victim's behalf.
In the case of the files and facing the elements that were collected it is evident that none of the arguidos Gerald or Kate acted with intent.
The parents could not foresee that in the resort that they chose to spend a brief holiday, they could place the life of any of their children in danger, nor was that demanded from them: it was located in a peaceful area, where most of the residents are foreign citizens of the same nationality and without any known history of this type of criminality.
The parents didn't even represent the realisation of the fact, they trusted that everything would go well, as it had gone on the previous evenings, thus not equating, nor was it demanded from them, the possibility of the occurrence of an abduction of any of the children that were in their respective apartments.
Reinforcing what was said is also the fact that despite leaving their daughter alone with her siblings in the apartment during more or less dilated moments, it is certain that in any case they checked on them.
http://genreith.de/pj-archiving-2008.pdf


That was the Portuguese legal position in 2008 ... what has changed since then to prompt discussion in 2019 ... a podcast?? which I doubt sheds any light on what happened to Madeleine or adds anything to the present day investigations to find her.
What has changed? Nothing. It's a forum discussing her disappearance. It's regurgitating old ground, but that's what we do here most of the time.
Great. They weren't deemed 'negligent' at the time under Portuguese law, but it's still morally reprehensible and the act lead to her  (likely) demise.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on April 09, 2019, 10:24:41 AM
What has changed? Nothing. It's a forum discussing her disappearance. It's regurgitating old ground, but that's what we do here most of the time.
Great. They weren't deemed 'negligent' at the time under Portuguese law, but it's still morally reprehensible and the act lead to her  (likely) demise.
In your opinion, and as we know opinion doesn't count unless you are on the jury.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on April 09, 2019, 10:25:13 AM
The Portuguese Attorney General referred to the situation regarding the law in Portugal when he decided that ...
Snip
It seems evident to us and because the files contain enough elements for such, that the crime of exposure or abandonment according to article 138 of the Penal Code can be eliminated from that range:
"1 - Whoever places another person's life in danger,
• a) By exposing her in a location where she is subject to a situation from which she, on her own, cannot defend herself against; or
• b) Abandoning her without defence, whenever the agent had the duty to guard her, to watch over her or to assist her;"
This legal type of crime is only fulfilled with intent, and this intent has to cover the creation of danger to the victim's life, as well as the absence of a capacity to defend herself, on the victim's behalf.
In the case of the files and facing the elements that were collected it is evident that none of the arguidos Gerald or Kate acted with intent.
The parents could not foresee that in the resort that they chose to spend a brief holiday, they could place the life of any of their children in danger, nor was that demanded from them: it was located in a peaceful area, where most of the residents are foreign citizens of the same nationality and without any known history of this type of criminality.
The parents didn't even represent the realisation of the fact, they trusted that everything would go well, as it had gone on the previous evenings, thus not equating, nor was it demanded from them, the possibility of the occurrence of an abduction of any of the children that were in their respective apartments.
Reinforcing what was said is also the fact that despite leaving their daughter alone with her siblings in the apartment during more or less dilated moments, it is certain that in any case they checked on them.
http://genreith.de/pj-archiving-2008.pdf


That was the Portuguese legal position in 2008 ... what has changed since then to prompt discussion in 2019 ... a podcast?? which I doubt sheds any light on what happened to Madeleine or adds anything to the present day investigations to find her.

It’s odd that while supporters are consistently disparaging about Portuguese law yet they find the part concerning neglect acceptable. The truth is if the parents had acted in the same way in the UK they would have faced much harsher sanctions.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on April 09, 2019, 10:29:14 AM
It’s odd that while supporters are consistently disparaging about Portuguese law they find the part concerning neglect acceptable. The truth is if the parents had acted in the same way in the UK they would have faced much harsher sanctions.
Have you got an example of parents doing a listening check on their kids and that being found illegal in the UK?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on April 09, 2019, 10:47:39 AM
What has changed? Nothing. It's a forum discussing her disappearance. It's regurgitating old ground, but that's what we do here most of the time.
Great. They weren't deemed 'negligent' at the time under Portuguese law, but it's still morally reprehensible and the act lead to her  (likely) demise.

The difficulty with that is (apart from being your opinion, not fact) that everyone in authority has moved on in the reality of the situation.

That Madeleine's is an 'unsolved crime' doesn't end back in groundhog year 2007, it has progressed to wherever it is the police are at with it today. It was decided since that based on what had gone before there was more than enough evidence to justify the move into pastures new.

Quote
Metropolitan Police Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood has said told ITV News that moving from a review to an investigation in the Madeleine McCann case was "an important moment" for the missing girl.

He said drawing together the material obtained by Scotland Yard, Portuguese authorities and private investigators had increased their investigative leads from 195 to over 3,800.
https://www.itv.com/news/story/2013-07-04/madeleine-mccann-met-police-missing-inquiry/

I'm sure Scotland Yard and the Judicial police have long since progressed beyond your opinion of moral outrage into the real outrage which has led to their investigation of the clearly stated abduction suffered by Madeleine ... one can only wonder why it bothers you so much ~ after a lapse of 12 years and all which has gone on since ~ that you continue to post about and Saunokonoko pod about.

Parental presence is no guarantee of safety when one considers the British children abused in their beds under the same roof around the time of Madeleine's disappearance which didn't appear to be connected until Scotland Yard investigated them.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on April 09, 2019, 10:48:59 AM
Portuguese law would apply in Portugal.  But I did read that they could apply UK law to events in Portugal.  I'd have to find it again, for the exact wording.

Bennett tried it back in the day and hit a brick wall.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 09, 2019, 11:11:26 AM
Bennett tried it back in the day and hit a brick wall.

We know that Social Services assessed the family when they returned to England. We know they didn't remove the twins. No-one knows if any other measures were taken to ensure their safety going forward.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 09, 2019, 11:43:54 AM
Joseph Moura investigated for 48 hours in the US. I have watched the programme they made at the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItbwWRSfcxw

It's before the files were released and isn't very informative. Althoough he went to the Ocean Club as a guest and frequented the Tapas Bar and spoke Portuguese he learned very little. His account does match what the Tapas staff told the PJ when first contacted however. There was no corroberation of the frequent checking the group claimed they carried out.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAPAS-EMPLOYEES.htm

The only other thing he discovered was that it was impossible to see the balcony doors from the restaurant.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on April 09, 2019, 11:53:06 AM
We know that Social Services assessed the family when they returned to England. We know they didn't remove the twins. No-one knows if any other measures were taken to ensure their safety going forward.
Tony Bennett has waged a campaign since 2007 against the Kate and Gerry McCann

He first became interested in the case while watching it unfold on television in 2007.

He attempted to bring a private prosecution against the couple in November 2007 for child neglect – on the grounds the couple were eating dinner with friends when Madeleine was abducted – but the case was thrown out in a magistrates' court.
_________________________________________________

"If Madeleine was abducted I would accept what I have done is a wicked campaign of harassment. If I am wrong I am evil. But if I am right, I am a victim of simply having the desire to pursue the truth."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/9046508/Retired-lawyer-faces-jail-for-harassing-Kate-and-Gerry-McCann.html
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on April 09, 2019, 11:56:35 AM
The difficulty with that is (apart from being your opinion, not fact) that everyone in authority has moved on in the reality of the situation.

'Guys, we've moved on now. No need to discuss further, yes, we understand your misgivings, but we've moved on'.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on April 09, 2019, 11:59:21 AM
Tony Bennett has waged a campaign since 2007 against the Kate and Gerry McCann

He first became interested in the case while watching it unfold on television in 2007.

He attempted to bring a private prosecution against the couple in November 2007 for child neglect – on the grounds the couple were eating dinner with friends when Madeleine was abducted – but the case was thrown out in a magistrates' court.
_________________________________________________

"If Madeleine was abducted I would accept what I have done is a wicked campaign of harassment. If I am wrong I am evil. But if I am right, I am a victim of simply having the desire to pursue the truth."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/9046508/Retired-lawyer-faces-jail-for-harassing-Kate-and-Gerry-McCann.html
Tony Bennett is an absolute helmet, in my humble opinion.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on April 09, 2019, 12:23:20 PM
Tony Bennett is an absolute helmet, in my humble opinion.

What he started, loadsa wannabes have continued ... in my opinion the latest being Saunokonoko and certainly not the last ... whose use of the podcast to regurgitate what was 'news' in 2007 differs only in being slightly more sophisticated in getting the message out than using leaflets
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 09, 2019, 12:57:13 PM
It seems to me that there is some evidence; such as the indifference of the group to their children's welfare that some people would prefer to see forgotten.

Other evidence from the same time; such as an alleged open window and shutters is recalled frequently and discussed happily.

In my opinion all evidence remains of interest because it all contributes to understanding the case and the people involved in it. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on April 09, 2019, 01:08:57 PM
It seems to me that there is some evidence; such as the indifference of the group to their children's welfare that some people would prefer to see forgotten.

Other evidence from the same time; such as an alleged open window and shutters is recalled frequently and discussed happily.

In my opinion all evidence remains of interest because it all contributes to understanding the case and the people involved in it.

It is all rather selective though is it not?  There is evidence that the Judicial police had no qualms at all about the openess of the window ... all myth and misrepresentation of the facts ruled the day and still does on social media and the internet from 2007 until 2019 and I doubt it will ever cease.  Factoids rule!

Snip
In a state of alert and panic, she searched the whole apartment, not managing to find the girl, which led her to go, already quite upset, to the Tapas restaurant, saying that her daughter had been taken, a clear allusion to an abduction, justified by the fact that the window was open. During this interval, the twins remained alone in the bedroom, asleep. They did not wake during the night, in spite of the number of people present and inevitable associated noise.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on April 09, 2019, 01:12:32 PM
It seems to me that there is some evidence; such as the indifference of the group to their children's welfare that some people would prefer to see forgotten.

Other evidence from the same time; such as an alleged open window and shutters is recalled frequently and discussed happily.

In my opinion all evidence remains of interest because it all contributes to understanding the case and the people involved in it.

The cause and effect is also conveniently overlooked - it is very evident that if the kids would have been allowed to mooch about around their feet, some in prams, some running around, but within view, this wouldn't have happened. I know there's a pool to think about, but the decision-making process and mental risk assessment from all in party beggars belief. Utterly, collectively negligent. And I can't understand how the matriarch of the group didn't intervene.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on April 09, 2019, 01:14:32 PM
During this interval, the twins remained alone in the bedroom, asleep.
And this. OK I understand the irrationality at play, but to abandon all maternal instincts at this crisis point remains inexplicable.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 09, 2019, 01:48:54 PM
It is all rather selective though is it not?  There is evidence that the Judicial police had no qualms at all about the openess of the window ... all myth and misrepresentation of the facts ruled the day and still does on social media and the internet from 2007 until 2019 and I doubt it will ever cease.  Factoids rule!

Snip
In a state of alert and panic, she searched the whole apartment, not managing to find the girl, which led her to go, already quite upset, to the Tapas restaurant, saying that her daughter had been taken, a clear allusion to an abduction, justified by the fact that the window was open. During this interval, the twins remained alone in the bedroom, asleep. They did not wake during the night, in spite of the number of people present and inevitable associated noise.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm

Disagreement about the importance or meaning of evidence is to be expected. Suggesting that evidence is no longer relevant or worthy of discussion because the investigation has 'moved on' is a step too far imo.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 09, 2019, 01:49:02 PM
What he started, loadsa wannabes have continued ... in my opinion the latest being Saunokonoko and certainly not the last ... whose use of the podcast to regurgitate what was 'news' in 2007 differs only in being slightly more sophisticated in getting the message out than using leaflets

I knew nothing about Bennett when learning about this case. He has zero influence!  He is the McCanns best asset with his crazy Smithman theories. They will be loving his crazy talk  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 09, 2019, 02:27:58 PM
I knew nothing about Bennett when learning about this case. He has zero influence!  He is the McCanns best asset with his crazy Smithman theories. They will be loving his crazy talk  @)(++(*

I think CMOMM have highlighted some anomalies. In my opinion they are correct to wonder about the tennis balls and the pool photos of Madeleine, but I don't share their conclusions. I just winder why two photos raken during that holiday weren't given to the PJ with all the other photos taken that week.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on April 09, 2019, 02:43:07 PM
Disagreement about the importance or meaning of evidence is to be expected. Suggesting that evidence is no longer relevant or worthy of discussion because the investigation has 'moved on' is a step too far imo.

Mibbe discussed once or twice before moving on ... but living it every single solitary hour, minute, second of every day from 2007 until 2019 ...  strikes me as being a tad excessive if you are not one of the individuals involved in the life changing events of 2007.

What is the purpose of cheerleaders, like the others before and no doubt after Saunokonoko, in this process?  I do not recall a single one lending anything of substance to the McCanns desperate and what must have at times been despairing search for Madeleine?  Or by definition for the missing child herself as they lobbied against assistance for her in parliament.

Light entertainment and twelve year long pejorative repetitive questioning just doesn't fit the bill.   Particularly when in the here and now two active police investigations on the go since 2013 have given the lie to so much which has gone before.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on April 09, 2019, 02:43:51 PM
I think CMOMM have highlighted some anomalies. In my opinion they are correct to wonder about the tennis balls and the pool photos of Madeleine, but I don't share their conclusions. I just winder why two photos raken during that holiday weren't given to the PJ with all the other photos taken that week.
Apart from the extravagant cropping, I don't understand the issues with the tennis ball photo. And the 'expert analysis' concluding it's been re-hashed is simply ridiculous. All this just to shoe-horn it in to a narrative.
(Off topic again, I know)
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on April 09, 2019, 02:46:00 PM

What is the purpose of cheerleaders, like the others before and no doubt after Saunokonoko, in this process?  I do not recall a single one lending anything of substance to the McCanns desperate and what must have at times been despairing search for Madeleine? 

Probably because they don't believe them.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on April 09, 2019, 03:11:48 PM
I think CMOMM have highlighted some anomalies. In my opinion they are correct to wonder about the tennis balls and the pool photos of Madeleine, but I don't share their conclusions. I just winder why two photos raken during that holiday weren't given to the PJ with all the other photos taken that week.

How do you know which photographs were handed to the police? https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/HOLIDAY-PHOTOS-LIST.htm
Surely that is your opinion only ... if you have a cite please share it with us.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on April 09, 2019, 03:23:45 PM
Probably because they don't believe them.

Possibly that would be more at home on the 'sceptic beliefs' thread ...

Is it your contention that a supposedly impartial 'investigative journalist' such as Saunokonoko allows his podcasts to be influenced by what he believes?

Makes them even more worthless than I imagined if so.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on April 09, 2019, 04:18:31 PM

Is it your contention that a supposedly impartial 'investigative journalist' such as Saunokonoko allows his podcasts to be influenced by what he believes?

Makes them even more worthless than I imagined if so.

No, it is not my contention. I listened to the most recent one, out of interest, and thought it was cobbled together, re-hashed old crap and not 'independent' at all.
Unfortunately, dependent upon the audience (and there is an audience) and the reach these days, podcasters can eek a decent living by spewing such sensationalist tripe.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on April 09, 2019, 05:08:42 PM
No, it is not my contention. I listened to the most recent one, out of interest, and thought it was cobbled together, re-hashed old crap and not 'independent' at all.
Unfortunately, dependent upon the audience (and there is an audience) and the reach these days, podcasters can eek a decent living by spewing such sensationalist tripe.

I agree that Madeleine's name = remuneration for some and many have indeed taken advantage of it.  I am interested that you think Saunokonoko might be one of them.
If he is I think it may signify exploitation of Madeleine and exploitation of his target audience.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on April 09, 2019, 05:25:28 PM
I agree that Madeleine's name = remuneration for some and many have indeed taken advantage of it.  I am interested that you think Saunokonoko might be one of them.
If he is I think it may signify exploitation of Madeleine and exploitation of his target audience.

What else do you expect?
Even Tracy writes her articles in return for money.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on April 09, 2019, 05:44:16 PM
And this. OK I understand the irrationality at play, but to abandon all maternal instincts at this crisis point remains inexplicable.
What about the paternal instincts? 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on April 09, 2019, 05:50:14 PM
No, it is not my contention. I listened to the most recent one, out of interest, and thought it was cobbled together, re-hashed old crap and not 'independent' at all.
Unfortunately, dependent upon the audience (and there is an audience) and the reach these days, podcasters can eek a decent living by spewing such sensationalist tripe.
How does Saunokonoko make money from these podcasts?  I seem to be able to listen to them for free.  Isn't everyone else?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 09, 2019, 05:59:17 PM
What about the paternal instincts?

He wasn't there at the time.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 09, 2019, 06:04:27 PM
How do you know which photographs were handed to the police? https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/HOLIDAY-PHOTOS-LIST.htm
Surely that is your opinion only ... if you have a cite please share it with us.

Well, you know where the photos are in the files. They were printed fron the CD's handed in by Wright and McCann and those two photos aren't there. Are you suggesting the PJ neglected to add them to the files with the others?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 09, 2019, 06:07:56 PM
It’s odd that while supporters are consistently disparaging about Portuguese law yet they find the part concerning neglect acceptable. The truth is if the parents had acted in the same way in the UK they would have faced much harsher sanctions.
I very much doubt it. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 09, 2019, 06:08:59 PM
We know that Social Services assessed the family when they returned to England. We know they didn't remove the twins. No-one knows if any other measures were taken to ensure their safety going forward.
Measures such as?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 09, 2019, 06:10:41 PM
Tony Bennett is an absolute helmet, in my humble opinion.
Why so?  He concurs with you absolutely on the matter of neglect, why is he not a hero in your eyes for trying to get the McCanns punished for their “sickening” actions?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 09, 2019, 06:15:38 PM
Mibbe discussed once or twice before moving on ... but living it every single solitary hour, minute, second of every day from 2007 until 2019 ...  strikes me as being a tad excessive if you are not one of the individuals involved in the life changing events of 2007.

What is the purpose of cheerleaders, like the others before and no doubt after Saunokonoko, in this process?  I do not recall a single one lending anything of substance to the McCanns desperate and what must have at times been despairing search for Madeleine?  Or by definition for the missing child herself as they lobbied against assistance for her in parliament.

Light entertainment and twelve year long pejorative repetitive questioning just doesn't fit the bill.   Particularly when in the here and now two active police investigations on the go since 2013 have given the lie to so much which has gone before.

Play fast anf loose with your children's safety and tragedy can follow. If it does, sympathy will lie with the one who got hurt, not the ones who failed to do their duty. Nor will it be forgotten. Ever.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 09, 2019, 06:18:06 PM
Play fast anf loose with your children's safety and tragedy can follow. If it does, sympathy will lie with the one who got hurt, not the ones who failed to do their duty. Nor will it be forgotten. Ever.
Gosh.  Forever ever?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on April 09, 2019, 06:19:41 PM
In this particular case, probably true.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 09, 2019, 06:23:00 PM
In this particular case, probably true.
It’s been forgiven by the people that matter as far as the McCanns are concerned I’m sure, and I would imagine that what a bunch of judgemental self-righteous armchair detectives have to say on the matter is neither here nor there to them.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 09, 2019, 06:28:57 PM
How does Saunokonoko make money from these podcasts?  I seem to be able to listen to them for free.  Isn't everyone else?

I can listen free too. His employers seem prepared to give him resources and time to learn about the case too. He has a better grasp of the details than any UK journalist I've read.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on April 09, 2019, 06:29:51 PM
He wasn't there at the time.
OK it was a specific interval, in which Kate knew there was no one else around or in the apartment.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 09, 2019, 06:47:25 PM
Gosh.  Forever ever?

Kate McCann;

"We need our Madeleine. Sean and Amelie need Madeleine, and she needs us."

It's highly likely she would never have had to make that appeal had she put her daughter's care before her own fun. That should not be forgotten imo.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 09, 2019, 06:53:35 PM
OK it was a specific interval, in which Kate knew there was no one else around or in the apartment.

Kate 'knew'? Kate's judgement wasn't to be relied on in my opinion.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 09, 2019, 06:54:56 PM
Kate McCann;

"We need our Madeleine. Sean and Amelie need Madeleine, and she needs us."

It's highly likely she would never have had to make that appeal had she put her daughter's care before her own fun. That should not be forgotten imo.
How often do you think you need to remind people?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on April 09, 2019, 07:14:59 PM
How often do you think you need to remind people?

You told me in an earlier post that "what a bunch of judgemental self-righteous armchair detectives have to say on the matter is neither here nor there to them. ", so why should that matter to you?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on April 09, 2019, 07:25:40 PM
You told me in an earlier post that "what a bunch of judgemental self-righteous armchair detectives have to say on the matter is neither here nor there to them. ", so why should that matter to you?

It's possibly just curiosity.
I too am curious why it can't be accepted that Madeleine's parents made entirely the wrong decision?
It's been discussed often, the accusation of neglect has been voiced frequently.
Their wrong decision was made in May 2007, almost twelve years ago.
I've never spoken to anyone who thinks it was a good decision.
However they and their friends made that choice.
For one family the decision ended in tradgedy.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on April 09, 2019, 07:28:04 PM
That doesn't seem an adequate reason to never mention it again.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 09, 2019, 07:29:30 PM
How often do you think you need to remind people?

As often as I want.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on April 09, 2019, 07:30:10 PM
That doesn't seem an adequate reason to never mention it again.

I didn't think for one moment it would be.
Feel free to continue.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on April 09, 2019, 07:32:17 PM
I didn't think for one moment it would be.
Feel free to continue.

Well thank you kindly ma'am, thank you kindly 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on April 09, 2019, 07:35:02 PM
Well thank you kindly ma'am, thank you kindly

Not at all.
You are very welcome.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on April 09, 2019, 07:38:04 PM
Kate 'knew'? Kate's judgement wasn't to be relied on in my opinion.
she had looked inside and outside.  No one there,hence no risk.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on April 09, 2019, 07:42:23 PM
she had looked inside and outside.  No one there,hence no risk.

No one visible.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 09, 2019, 07:48:21 PM
You told me in an earlier post that "what a bunch of judgemental self-righteous armchair detectives have to say on the matter is neither here nor there to them. ", so why should that matter to you?
It doesn’t, just asking, is that OK with you?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 09, 2019, 07:50:06 PM
As often as I want.
Is it something to you plan to go to your grave mentioning on a regular basis?  Just curious as to why this alleged case of neglect is apparently of such concern to you, more so it would appear than any other.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 09, 2019, 07:57:51 PM
she had looked inside and outside.  No one there,hence no risk.

She looked our of the window. There were many places to lurk which she couldn't see from there, so to say there was no-one there is a bit of an exaggeration imo.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on April 09, 2019, 11:34:06 PM
It's possibly just curiosity.
I too am curious why it can't be accepted that Madeleine's parents made entirely the wrong decision?
It's been discussed often, the accusation of neglect has been voiced frequently.
Their wrong decision was made in May 2007, almost twelve years ago.
I've never spoken to anyone who thinks it was a good decision.
However they and their friends made that choice.
For one family the decision ended in tradgedy.

No for one child that decision ended in tragedy. For the adults that made that decision life goes on.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on April 09, 2019, 11:37:05 PM
No for one child that decision ended in tragedy. For the adults that made that decision life goes on.

The tradgedy for all her family is that life goes on without her in their family.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on April 09, 2019, 11:44:59 PM
The tradgedy for all her family is that life goes on without her in their family.

No as I said the people most impacted by this ‘choice’ were those with no part in it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on April 09, 2019, 11:51:45 PM
No as I said the people most impacted by this ‘choice’ were those with no part in it.


You're quite emphatic with your opinion, aren't you?
Twice you have begun your response with No!!


Equally I can say that  making an unwise choice can also impact on those making that unwise choice.
It is tragic for all of Madeleine's family to have life go on without her.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on April 09, 2019, 11:54:11 PM

You're quite emphatic with your opinion, aren't you?
Twice you have begun your response with No!!


Equally I can say that  making an unwise choice can also impact on those making that unwise choice.
It is tragic for all of Madeleine's family to have life go on without her.

But Madeleine is the real victim......as well, of course, as her child siblings who will never know their big sister because of their parent’s selfish choice.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on April 09, 2019, 11:58:50 PM
But Madeleine is the real victim......as well, of course, as her child siblings who will never know their big sister because of their parent’s selfish choice.

I didn't mention the word victim.
It goes without saying that Madeleine was the victim.
However my original post was that the decision made by all the adults resulted in tradgedy for Madeleine's family.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on April 10, 2019, 12:05:24 AM
I didn't mention the word victim.
It goes without saying that Madeleine was the victim.
However my original post was that the decision made by all the adults resulted in tradgedy for Madeleine's family.

When a father who has been drinking has an accident while driving his daughter to a friends would you consider that to be his tragedy too ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on April 10, 2019, 12:07:17 AM
When a father who has been drinking has an accident while driving his daughter to a friends would you consider that to be his tragedy too ?

Yes .
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on April 10, 2019, 12:14:17 AM
Yes .

I think you’d be in a minority then.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 10, 2019, 07:37:39 AM
I think you’d be in a minority then.
People do stupid, even illegal things sometimes with tragic consequences both for their nearest and dearest and themselves.  I think anyone with warmth and empathy  would accept that the situation described by yourself is tragic for all concerned.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on April 10, 2019, 07:58:03 AM
Yes .

Then the next time someone brings up that Amaral may have driven his daughter after drinking you’ll put that down to simply a bad choice ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 10, 2019, 08:08:56 AM
Then the next time someone brings up that Amaral may have driven his daughter after drinking you’ll put that down to simply a bad choice ?
Of course it was a bad choice and illegal. If she’d died because if his actions it would have been a tragedy for the Amaral family, himself included.  Alcoholics are often seen as tragic figures.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on April 10, 2019, 09:52:38 AM
Then the next time someone brings up that Amaral may have driven his daughter after drinking you’ll put that down to simply a bad choice ?


Indeed!
Amaral made the wrong choice/ decision but with no bad intent.
Fortunately for his daughter, and himself and his family his decision to drive while likely being drunk did not result in a tradgedy for them all.

Madeleine's parents and their friends made the wrong choice/decision  with no bad intent but sadly it did result in tradgedy for Madeleine and all her family.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on April 10, 2019, 12:10:29 PM
When a father who has been drinking has an accident while driving his daughter to a friends would you consider that to be his tragedy too ?

Is that in reference to the accusation made against Amaral for drunk driving while his daughter was a passenger?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7802.msg366311#msg366311
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on April 10, 2019, 09:46:22 PM
Is that in reference to the accusation made against Amaral for drunk driving while his daughter was a passenger?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7802.msg366311#msg366311
A drunk driver is putting a lot of other people at risk too, not just himself and his passengers.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on April 10, 2019, 11:08:27 PM
Is that in reference to the accusation made against Amaral for drunk driving while his daughter was a passenger?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7802.msg366311#msg366311

You appear not to agree with Erngath that Amaral simply made a bad choice like the McCanns.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on April 10, 2019, 11:48:01 PM
It’s been forgiven by the people that matter as far as the McCanns are concerned I’m sure, and I would imagine that what a bunch of judgemental self-righteous armchair detectives have to say on the matter is neither here nor there to them.

So those that matter... has Madeliene forgiven her parents ?AND if she were found alive - in plain sight as has been suggested, are we to belive that when MBM reads about what her parents did she will forgive them?  Interesting!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 11, 2019, 07:26:16 AM
So those that matter... has Madeliene forgiven her parents ?AND if she were found alive in some - in plain sight as has been suggested, are we to belive that when MBM reads about what her parents did she will forgive them?  Interesting!
You can believe what you like. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 11, 2019, 08:18:35 AM
Is that in reference to the accusation made against Amaral for drunk driving while his daughter was a passenger?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7802.msg366311#msg366311

His wife accused him of driving a police car when drunk, but I saw nothing about the child being in the car at the time. Is it me?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 11, 2019, 08:23:18 AM
His wife accused him of driving a police car when drunk, but I saw nothing about the child being in the car at the time. Is it me?

Where was the child when this domestic drama was unfolding?

3. On Saturday 22nd , and after many attempts, my husband finally answered the phone in the middle of the afternoon, and asked me to get Inęs in home. I rushed to the residence, but nobody was there. After a while, Gonçalo appeared driving the same car, and again in a notorious state of drunkenness. Having asked him for Inęs Sofia, he ordered me to go inside the house, where he insulted me and threatened me of death. I abandoned the place.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 11, 2019, 09:02:01 AM
Where was the child when this domestic drama was unfolding?

3. On Saturday 22nd , and after many attempts, my husband finally answered the phone in the middle of the afternoon, and asked me to get Inęs in home. I rushed to the residence, but nobody was there. After a while, Gonçalo appeared driving the same car, and again in a notorious state of drunkenness. Having asked him for Inęs Sofia, he ordered me to go inside the house, where he insulted me and threatened me of death. I abandoned the place.

Where does it say she was there?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 11, 2019, 06:24:18 PM
Where does it say she was there?
That’s what I’m asking, where was she do you think?  She wasn’t at her home, she wasn’t at his home (despite Amaral calling his wife to collect her) so where do you think she was exactly?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on April 11, 2019, 06:33:31 PM
That’s what I’m asking, where was she do you think?  She wasn’t at her home, she wasn’t at his home (despite Amaral calling his wife to collect her) so where do you think she was exactly?
At her nans down the road. Maybe.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 11, 2019, 06:44:37 PM
At her nans down the road. Maybe.
Or maybe she was in the car with her drunken dad.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 11, 2019, 06:47:03 PM
Obviously wifey was concerned for the child’s saftey:

“Unfortunately, this situation is not a unique and isolated act, and you Sir well know about other times in the past where I've also asked for your help. Once more, I ask again for your help, in order to guarantee Inęs Sofia integrity, and in order to localize her”.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on April 11, 2019, 07:13:21 PM
Or maybe she was in the car with her drunken dad.
Or somewhere else. What were we talking about again?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 11, 2019, 07:25:25 PM
Or somewhere else. What were we talking about again?
Wherever she was the child’s mother was clearly distressed by the father’s drunken behaviour and worried for her child’s safety.  Strange how Amaral’s parenting skills are never the subject of intense opprobrium from the “McCanns should be done for neglect” brigade.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on April 11, 2019, 07:27:21 PM
Wherever she was the child’s mother was clearly distressed by the father’s drunken behaviour and worried for her child’s safety.  Strange how Amaral’s parenting skills are never the subject of intense opprobrium from the “McCanns should be done for neglect” brigade.
I agree. Anecdotally he seems to be quite the flawed character himself.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 11, 2019, 09:23:48 PM
I agree. Anecdotally he seems to be quite the flawed character himself.

I can see no proof, however, that he was driving drunk with his daughter in the car. That is what he has been accused of.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on April 11, 2019, 09:33:09 PM
I can see no proof, however, that he was driving drunk with his daughter in the car. That is what he has been accused of.
No, I can't either, hence anecdotal.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 11, 2019, 10:29:23 PM
No, I can't either, hence anecdotal.

It sounds like he and his wife were living seoerately quite soon after he was removed from the McCann case. I hadn't realised that.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 12, 2019, 01:57:19 PM
A TOP detective who snared Levi Bellfield has claimed that Scotland Yard could be sitting on "a real game changer" in the Madeleine McCann mystery.

Colin Sutton urged British cops to carry out new tests on the complex DNA samples found in the case that were ruled "inconclusive” in 2007.

The former detective, who solved more than 30 murders during his career at Scotland Yard, said advanced new testing methods could crack the case.

DNA samples were taken from swabs lifted from the McCann family's holiday flat and hire car after sniffer dogs allegedly detected the "scent of death".

Leading forensics expert Dr Mark Perlin offered to re-test the "inconclusive" DNA samples – but detectives snubbed his offer to analyse samples for free.

In the latest episode of Nine News' Maddie podcast, Mr Sutton was asked what it would mean if new tests found Madeleine's DNA in the family’s rental car.

He said: "On that basis, that that car was hired by the McCanns three weeks after Madeleine disappeared, then it is a real game changer, isn't it?

“Because there is no way, according to information that we have, that she could have been in that car.

"The big question then is how can her DNA get into that car three weeks after she disappeared?"

https://www.thesun.ie/news/3973072/scotland-yard-game-changer-madeleine-mccann-dna-test/
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on April 12, 2019, 04:26:18 PM
A TOP detective who snared Levi Bellfield has claimed that Scotland Yard could be sitting on "a real game changer" in the Madeleine McCann mystery.

Colin Sutton urged British cops to carry out new tests on the complex DNA samples found in the case that were ruled "inconclusive” in 2007.

The former detective, who solved more than 30 murders during his career at Scotland Yard, said advanced new testing methods could crack the case.

DNA samples were taken from swabs lifted from the McCann family's holiday flat and hire car after sniffer dogs allegedly detected the "scent of death".

Leading forensics expert Dr Mark Perlin offered to re-test the "inconclusive" DNA samples – but detectives snubbed his offer to analyse samples for free.

In the latest episode of Nine News' Maddie podcast, Mr Sutton was asked what it would mean if new tests found Madeleine's DNA in the family’s rental car.

He said: "On that basis, that that car was hired by the McCanns three weeks after Madeleine disappeared, then it is a real game changer, isn't it?

“Because there is no way, according to information that we have, that she could have been in that car.

"The big question then is how can her DNA get into that car three weeks after she disappeared?"

https://www.thesun.ie/news/3973072/scotland-yard-game-changer-madeleine-mccann-dna-test/

How can one take Colin Sutton seriously when he asks questions like ... "The big question then is how can her DNA get into that car three weeks after she disappeared?"

Has a police officer never heard of SECONDARY TRANSFER?

Yet again Saunonoko's podcasts lend nothing to Madeleine's case.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on April 12, 2019, 04:44:00 PM
How can one take Colin Sutton seriously when he asks questions like ... "The big question then is how can her DNA get into that car three weeks after she disappeared?"

Has a police officer never heard of SECONDARY TRANSFER?

Yet again Saunonoko's podcasts lend nothing to Madeleine's case.


I'm sure that arguing over that is something that would give lawyers hours of gainful employment
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on April 12, 2019, 05:04:17 PM

I'm sure that arguing over that is something that would give lawyers hours of gainful employment

Hardly.  They wouldn't even be bothered to ask.  The reply is too obvious.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on April 12, 2019, 05:23:07 PM
Hardly.  They wouldn't even be bothered to ask.  The reply is too obvious.

Used and if understood DNA analysis is possibly the gold standard as an investigative tool.  I shudder that a police officer does not appear to recognise how easily secondary transfer occurs. I'm a layman but I've read enough to understand.

The saving grace is that he is retired ... but he should update his knowledge enough to enable a constructive statement before pontificating on active cases
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 12, 2019, 07:54:49 PM
How can one take Colin Sutton seriously when he asks questions like ... "The big question then is how can her DNA get into that car three weeks after she disappeared?"

Has a police officer never heard of SECONDARY TRANSFER?

Yet again Saunonoko's podcasts lend nothing to Madeleine's case.

Times change; new science, new technology, new evidence, maybe new leads. Why not?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on April 12, 2019, 08:05:49 PM
Times change; new science, new technology, new evidence, maybe new leads. Why not?

Bearing in mind that one of the first diligences undertaken by Scotland Yard was a rerun of forensics ...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 12, 2019, 08:21:19 PM
Bearing in mind that one of the first diligences undertaken by Scotland Yard was a rerun of forensics ...

I don't remember them saying that? Even if they did it was years ago.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on April 12, 2019, 08:33:58 PM
I don't remember them saying that? Even if they did it was years ago.

Then you are not as au fait with the available data on Madeleine's case as you claim to be.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on April 12, 2019, 08:38:33 PM
I don't remember them saying that? Even if they did it was years ago.


August 2016

“The final forensics were carried out about three months ago but, sadly, they didn’t take us forward. There are no plans for any further forensic work to take place.”

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/no-more-forensic-work-madeleine-8577193
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on April 12, 2019, 08:44:12 PM
delete
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on April 12, 2019, 08:54:03 PM
Then you are not as au fait with the available data on Madeleine's case as you claim to be.

Not surprising as we sceptics are mere amateur hobbyists  8(0(*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 12, 2019, 09:16:51 PM

August 2016

“The final forensics were carried out about three months ago but, sadly, they didn’t take us forward. There are no plans for any further forensic work to take place.”

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/no-more-forensic-work-madeleine-8577193

Thank you. An impeccable source.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on April 12, 2019, 09:19:03 PM
Thank you. An impeccable source.

 @)(++(*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 13, 2019, 12:04:49 PM
How can one take Colin Sutton seriously when he asks questions like ... "The big question then is how can her DNA get into that car three weeks after she disappeared?"

Has a police officer never heard of SECONDARY TRANSFER?

Yet again Saunonoko's podcasts lend nothing to Madeleine's case.

And hairs matching Maddy in that location? Any clothes would be bagged in the boot but not so it seems for supporters.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on April 13, 2019, 12:10:28 PM
Note how defensive excuses are put up even before any additional testing is done  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 13, 2019, 12:15:18 PM
Sutton is the new target. Look at them digging for dirt  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on April 13, 2019, 12:28:38 PM
Sutton is the new target. Look at them digging for dirt  @)(++(*

Sutton doesn't know of what he is talking about.  He is not privy to any information.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on April 13, 2019, 12:31:41 PM
Sutton doesn't know of what he is talking about.  He is not privy to any information.

You sound very certain. Sure it's not just wishful thinking on your part?  8)--))
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on April 13, 2019, 01:26:59 PM
Note how defensive excuses are put up even before any additional testing is done  @)(++(*

How can a machine separate DNA when they don't know whose DNA it belongs to?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on April 13, 2019, 01:31:06 PM
How can a machine separate DNA when they don't know whose DNA it belongs to?

I don't know, but I don't need to.
If it works, then it will throw up some interesting questions and answers.

Attempting to rubbish the procedure, while standard tactics, achieves nothing.

As the saying goes, nothing to hide, nothing to fear.   8(0(*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on April 13, 2019, 02:07:23 PM
I don't know, but I don't need to.
If it works, then it will throw up some interesting questions and answers.

Attempting to rubbish the procedure, while standard tactics, achieves nothing.

As the saying goes, nothing to hide, nothing to fear.   8(0(*

If for example they said they found all the markers for Madeleine's DNA,  how can they guarantee that the other markers they found WERE Madeleine's and not belonging to her siblings, parents, or a member of the public?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 13, 2019, 02:09:41 PM
How can a machine separate DNA when they don't know whose DNA it belongs to?

I've read a fair bit about true allele... And it isn't clear and that's why I suggested that Perlin answerred a few more questions people condemned SY.... It seems some are willing to believe anything without real evidence..
Thinking logically and from what is implied...
It's quite possible that the programme could come up with multiple possible profiles with some being note likely than others... And the computer, selects, the most likely..
I think it would struggle with a match to Maddue when both parents could have contributed to the mix..

So can Perlin answer the question... Was Maddie's DNA in the car... I think the answer is no.. He can give a probability but not a definitive answer... Then we ask what is, the significance when transference is highly likely...
I seem to remember from the podcast that Perlin said transference is unlikely... If he did he is wrong... I'll check again... Sutton certainly showed he didn't understand  how likely transference was...which is a poor show for someone promoted by some as some kind if expert
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on April 13, 2019, 02:17:39 PM
If for example they said they found all the markers for Madeleine's DNA,  how can they guarantee that the other markers they found WERE Madeleine's and not belonging to her siblings, parents, or a member of the public?

Not my problem, any more than it is yours.

I'm prepared for them to air their findings before commenting on them.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 13, 2019, 02:25:28 PM
Not my problem, any more than it is yours.

I'm prepared for them to air their findings before commenting on them.

I think that's a sensible approach that someone should explain to Sutton who talks about blood soaked rags and attempts to clean away possible DNA evidence.. LOL..
After these statements I think it's fair  to question his agenda... Those comments will certainly add fuel to the sceptics beliefs... Why has he done that... Why is he not being impartial... What is his agenda
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on April 13, 2019, 02:34:22 PM
You sound very certain. Sure it's not just wishful thinking on your part?  8)--))

Why would it be wishful thinking on my part?  Colin Sutton has no knowledge of the investigation.

We don't even know if he was asked to be involved, or even if he was given the opportunity to decline.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on April 13, 2019, 02:37:47 PM
I've read a fair bit about true allele... And it isn't clear and that's why I suggested that Perlin answerred a few more questions people condemned SY.... It seems some are willing to believe anything without real evidence..
Thinking logically and from what is implied...
It's quite possible that the programme could come up with multiple possible profiles with some being note likely than others... And the computer, selects, the most likely..
I think it would struggle with a match to Maddue when both parents could have contributed to the mix..

So can Perlin answer the question... Was Maddie's DNA in the car... I think the answer is no.. He can give a probability but not a definitive answer... Then we ask what is, the significance when transference is highly likely...
I seem to remember from the podcast that Perlin said transference is unlikely... If he did he is wrong... I'll check again... Sutton certainly showed he didn't understand  how likely transference was...which is a poor show for someone promoted by some as some kind if expert

Glad that you are back, no matter what you think of me.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on April 13, 2019, 02:38:12 PM
How can a machine separate DNA when they don't know whose DNA it belongs to?
Does a machine need to know who? Surely they're just extrapolating different DNA signatures?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 13, 2019, 02:38:39 PM
Glad that you are back, no matter what you think of me.

I think you are a very nice person... Based on the evidence
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on April 13, 2019, 02:40:43 PM
I think that's a sensible approach that someone should explain to Sutton who talks about blood soaked rags and attempts to clean away possible DNA evidence.. LOL..
After these statements I think it's fair  to question his agenda... Those comments will certainly add fuel to the sceptics beliefs... Why has he done that... Why is he not being impartial... What is his agenda
He's being paid. He's gone from wringing the life out of it, on the road doing PPT presentations in community centres with a crackpot, to being in demand on the Maddie media circus....he's solved over 30 murders apparently, so he's an expert!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on April 13, 2019, 03:01:24 PM
Does a machine need to know who? Surely they're just extrapolating different DNA signatures?

Different DNA signatures yes,  but how do they know where to put them as to what belongs where.   I can understand if one person left DNA but five?   How on earth can you decide which marker belongs where?   In Madeleine's case 15 markers were found belonging to her,  could this machine find the others to say yes it was definitely Madeleine's DNA  or find the markers and say, well it could be but they could also belong to her siblings or parents or one of the public.   One of the public is probable as it was a hire car.   
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on April 13, 2019, 03:03:42 PM
Different DNA signatures yes,  but how do they know where to put them as to what belongs where.   I can understand if one person left DNA but five?   How on earth can you decide which marker belongs where?   In Madeleine's case 15 markers were found belonging to her,  could this machine find the others to say yes it was definitely Madeleine's DNA  or find the markers and say, well it could be but they could also belong to her siblings or parents or one of the public.   One of the public is probable as it was a hire car.

Why worry about it - it hasn't happened yet.
When the results are in is the time to panic - or maybe not.  8)--))
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on April 13, 2019, 03:04:18 PM
I think you are a very nice person... Based on the evidence

La La.  Thanks for that.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on April 13, 2019, 03:05:19 PM
He's being paid. He's gone from wringing the life out of it, on the road doing PPT presentations in community centres with a crackpot, to being in demand on the Maddie media circus....he's solved over 30 murders apparently, so he's an expert!

Not on this case he isn't.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on April 13, 2019, 03:06:12 PM
Different DNA signatures yes,  but how do they know where to put them as to what belongs where.   I can understand if one person left DNA but five?   How on earth can you decide which marker belongs where?   In Madeleine's case 15 markers were found belonging to her,  could this machine find the others to say yes it was definitely Madeleine's DNA  or find the markers and say, well it could be but they could also belong to her siblings or parents or one of the public.   One of the public is probable as it was a hire car.
I don't know.
I presumed, somewhat naively, that they could just sort them in to separate people, but I suppose you must need something to compare them against?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on April 13, 2019, 03:08:23 PM
Not on this case he isn't.
Well he's making a decent living out of appearing on several, recent TV shows for someone who isn't an expert.
But then I don't suppose you need to be an expert on the case if you're a 30 year police veteran.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on April 13, 2019, 03:12:54 PM
30 years's experience of police work versus self-opinionated people with none. Bit of a no brainer really.   @)(++(*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on April 13, 2019, 03:19:33 PM
Well he's making a decent living out of appearing on several, recent TV shows for someone who isn't an expert.
But then I don't suppose you need to be an expert on the case if you're a 30 year police veteran.

Exactly.  Colin Sutton is making a few bob.  What a disgrace.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on April 13, 2019, 03:57:04 PM
30 years's experience of police work versus self-opinionated people with none. Bit of a no brainer really.   @)(++(*

Not even remotely funny.

To do this job then you need to know what the evidence is, which Colin Sutton didn't.  He never had such access, and so had no right to suggest that he did.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on April 13, 2019, 04:07:00 PM
Not even remotely funny.

To do this job then you need to know what the evidence is, which Colin Sutton didn't.  He never had such access, and so had no right to suggest that he did.
I personally don't like him or agree, but he literally devoted his working life to the police force - 38 years or something. He's pretty handily placed to be one of these talking heads 'experts' that these crime shows wheel out. He would have read the files, just as we have, he seems well versed in the facts.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on April 13, 2019, 05:07:08 PM
Exactly.  Colin Sutton is making a few bob.  What a disgrace.

Funny old thing this money lark,keeps the world turning though.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on April 13, 2019, 05:20:57 PM
Funny old thing this money lark,keeps the world turning though.

Yeah my posts about the parents making money was removed.   Censorship. it never works the way you want it to.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 13, 2019, 05:33:16 PM
30 years's experience of police work versus self-opinionated people with none. Bit of a no brainer really.   @)(++(*

How long has amaral been a police officer... He didn't understand  the DNA or the dogs
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on April 13, 2019, 05:35:00 PM
I personally don't like him or agree, but he literally devoted his working life to the police force - 38 years or something. He's pretty handily placed to be one of these talking heads 'experts' that these crime shows wheel out. He would have read the files, just as we have, he seems well versed in the facts.

Colin Sutton had no insight into this case, and should not even be talking about it.  It is an interference within the course of Justice.

I don't care.  This will never come to Court,  no matter what,  At least for The McCanns.

My own personal thoughts are irrelevant.  As are yours.  Any chance of anyone implicating The McCanns was long ago lost.







Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on April 13, 2019, 05:41:45 PM
Yeah my posts about the parents making money was removed.   Censorship. it never works the way you want it to.

You are so often a boring pain in the neck.  But that's just you.  I suspect that you work quite hard.  But that's just me.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on April 13, 2019, 05:45:04 PM
Colin Sutton had no insight into this case, and should not even be talking about it.  It is an interference within the course of Justice.

I don't care.  This will never come to Court,  no matter what,  At least for The McCanns.

My own personal thoughts are irrelevant.  As are yours.  Any chance of anyone implicating The McCanns was long ago lost.
So irrelevant and so futile, so let's agree to stop posting on forums about it then, eh?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on April 13, 2019, 05:50:58 PM
So irrelevant and so futile, so let's agree to stop posting on forums about it then, eh?

Yeah, you are catching on fast! That is what they want. people to stop questioning and talking about what happened to their Daughter and Them.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on April 13, 2019, 05:51:34 PM
So irrelevant and so futile, so let's agree to stop posting on forums about it then, eh?
You might just might have hit on something.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on April 13, 2019, 05:55:26 PM
You might just might have hit on something.
I've stopped posting 3 posts ago.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on April 13, 2019, 06:03:22 PM
So irrelevant and so futile, so let's agree to stop posting on forums about it then, eh?

What a good idea.  You do that.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on April 13, 2019, 06:04:04 PM
How long has amaral been a police officer... He didn't understand  the DNA or the dogs

He also struggled with the time line and the moving doors and blowing curtains when there was no wind reported that night... among other wee things...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on April 13, 2019, 06:04:26 PM
What a good idea.  You do that.
I have, 4 posts ago. I've had it with this place.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 13, 2019, 06:06:16 PM
He also struggled with the time line and the moving doors and blowing curtains when there was no wind reported that night... among other wee things...

I agree he struggled with a lot... The new Portuguese investigators seem much more competent
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on April 13, 2019, 06:08:23 PM
I agree he struggled with a lot... The new Portuguese investigators seem much more competent
....than SY?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 13, 2019, 06:08:54 PM
....than SY?

Look at the context of the post
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on April 13, 2019, 06:09:24 PM
I agree he struggled with a lot... The new Portuguese investigators seem much more competent

YES Even more competent than OG.   PJ still claiming crime unknown?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 13, 2019, 06:11:17 PM
YES Even more competent than OG.   PJ still claiming crime unknown?

The crime is unknown but according to the PJ the parents are not suspects and there's no evidence against them... It's clear to me they are not being investigated
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on April 13, 2019, 06:13:42 PM
The crime is unknown but according to the PJ the parents are not suspects and there's no evidence against them... It's clear to me they are not being investigated


That might just might be the very reason its where its at.
Now, how about producing the cite where the PJ wanted SY to open an investigation.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on April 13, 2019, 06:17:37 PM
Look at the context of the post

Be careful now.  But I am watching.  There will not be a misunderstanding on the next occasion.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on April 13, 2019, 06:19:40 PM
The crime is unknown but according to the PJ the parents are not suspects and there's no evidence against them... It's clear to me they are not being investigated

With the crime being unknown how can there be any suspects?   *%87  who would they be suspected of anything the crime is unknown.... *%87

is it me>  what? &%54%
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on April 13, 2019, 06:23:49 PM

That might just might be the very reason its where its at.
Now you are back with a renewed spring in your step how about producing the cite where the PJ wanted SY to open an investigation.

Don't push your luck.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on April 13, 2019, 06:25:06 PM
Don't push your luck.

If I didn't have bad luck I'd have no luck at all.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 13, 2019, 06:33:51 PM

That might just might be the very reason its where its at.
Now, how about producing the cite where the PJ wanted SY to open an investigation.

Could you produce a cite where I said the PJ wanted SY to open an investigation... I'm afraid you won't find one as I never said that
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on April 13, 2019, 06:37:14 PM
Could you produce a cite where I said the PJ wanted SY to open an investigation... I'm afraid you won't find one as I never said that

Post 585 sceptic belief thread.

they did..thats afact...in order for SY to investigate they required an official invitation from the PJ
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on April 13, 2019, 08:44:45 PM
How can a machine separate DNA when they don't know whose DNA it belongs to?
DNA interpretation is dependent on statistical analysis.  Certain alleles are more likely to be associated with groups of others.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on April 13, 2019, 08:52:18 PM
If for example they said they found all the markers for Madeleine's DNA,  how can they guarantee that the other markers they found WERE Madeleine's and not belonging to her siblings, parents, or a member of the public?
The method will not find new alleles.  there were 4 alleles belong to Madeleine that were not found.  No computer program will find additional alleles.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 13, 2019, 09:06:44 PM
Post 585 sceptic belief thread.

So you have confirmed I never said the, PJ wanted Grange to open an investigation..... I'm fairly sure they didn't... I said they invited them..... They probably didn't want to but had no choice
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on April 13, 2019, 09:42:37 PM
So you have confirmed I never said the, PJ wanted Grange to open an investigation..... I'm fairly sure they didn't... I said they invited them..... They probably didn't want to but had no choice

Oh I am sure they did have a choice. [moderated]
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on April 15, 2019, 08:07:58 AM
Latest one.


https://omny.fm/shows/maddie/a-door-marked-closed
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 15, 2019, 08:55:32 AM
Latest one.


https://omny.fm/shows/maddie/a-door-marked-closed
Is it illuminating?  Does anyone bother actually listening to these anymore?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on April 15, 2019, 09:02:57 AM
Latest one.


https://omny.fm/shows/maddie/a-door-marked-closed

Interesting,

Media adviser Bell Pottinger, who advised the McCanns, later included one Oscar Pistorius on it's client list.

Well, I suppose, if the shoe fits....
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 15, 2019, 09:19:07 AM
Interesting,

Media adviser Bell Pottinger, who advised the McCanns, later included one Oscar Pistorius on it's client list.

Well, I suppose, if the shoe fits....
They also advised Rolf Harris, so I guess it stands to reason that they must be both killers and paedophiles, along with ebay, coa cola, dyson and fortnum and mason #spamlogic
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on April 15, 2019, 09:19:32 AM
Interesting,

Media adviser Bell Pottinger, who advised the McCanns, later included one Oscar Pistorius on it's client list.

Well, I suppose, if the shoe fits....

I see what you did there.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on April 15, 2019, 09:20:31 AM
They also advised Rolf Harris, so I guess it stands to reason that they must be both killers and paedophiles, along with ebay, coa cola, dyson and fortnum and mason #spamlogic
It's a bit like the 'One True Sceptic' fallacy frequently trotted out here.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on April 15, 2019, 09:21:18 AM
They also advised Rolf Harris, so I guess it stands to reason that they must be both killers and paedophiles, along with ebay, coa cola, dyson and fortnum and mason #spamlogic

Oscar Pistorius has no legs....

'If the shoe fits...'

*Tumbleweed*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on April 15, 2019, 09:23:59 AM
Oscar Pistorius has no legs....

'If the shoe fits...'

*Tumbleweed*
I've recently discovered that it needs to be put simpler than that.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on April 15, 2019, 09:25:21 AM
Latest one.


https://omny.fm/shows/maddie/a-door-marked-closed
I didn't get much out of that one.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 15, 2019, 09:31:49 AM
It's becoming pure sceptic propaganda.... And IMO will sink into oblivion very quickly
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 15, 2019, 09:34:01 AM
Oscar Pistorius has no legs....

'If the shoe fits...'

*Tumbleweed*
Yes, I saw your cheap joke at the expense of the disabled.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on April 15, 2019, 09:35:47 AM
It's becoming pure sceptic propaganda.... And IMO will sink into oblivion very quickly

Keeps the supporters happy with the sceptic snipes,what more do you want.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 15, 2019, 09:36:07 AM
I've recently discovered that it needs to be put simpler than that.
Do you think I’m stupid?  Seriously?  That goes to show just how astute you are. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 15, 2019, 09:54:37 AM
I didn't get much out of that one.

I think it's because it's such a large and complicated subject he's trying to tackle. He mentions bias in the police and judiciary briefly, and thats a complicated subject on it's own. Police and judges react differently to different people as we all do. That's why. in the UK, a group of youths from a council estate with a bad reputation are more likely to be arrested and punished by the law if they are fighting in the street than a group of aristocratic youths are for the same offence.

Then he tries to tackle the media reactions to the story and why it developed as it did. Again, a huge subject which was influenced by so many different factors.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 15, 2019, 10:01:38 AM
I think it's because it's such a large and complicated subject he's trying to tackle. He mentions bias in the police and judiciary briefly, and thats a complicated subject on it's own. Police and judges react differently to different people as we all do. That's why. in the UK, a group of youths from a council estate with a bad reputation are more likely to be arrested and punished by the law if they are fighting in the street than a group of aristocratic youths are for the same offence.

Then he tries to tackle the media reactions to the story and why it developed as it did. Again, a huge subject which was influenced by so many different factors.

His remarks Re tunnel vision by police and bias in the judiciary could be levelled at the PJ and the SC.... At least now sceptics will have to accept this is possible
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 15, 2019, 10:20:51 AM
His remarks Re tunnel vision by police and bias in the judiciary could be levelled at the PJ and the SC.... At least now sceptics will have to accept this is possible

Supporters will have to accept that they could be levelled at Leicestershire Constabulary and Operation Grange too.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on April 15, 2019, 10:25:03 AM
Yes, I saw your cheap joke at the expense of the disabled.

Ahhh,  didums. I'm sure Oscar can stand up for himself.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 15, 2019, 10:44:48 AM
Ahhh,  didums. I'm sure Oscar can stand up for himself.
Imagine if I’d made a similar remark about a disabled sceptic, I’d never have heard the end of it!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 15, 2019, 12:42:30 PM

A DNA expert who testified against two men accused of murdering two British soldiers is prepared to exaggerate and tell partial truths in order to promote his technique, a court was told.

A defence lawyer claimed Dr Mark Perlin was so focused on his “mission” to get his forensic method accepted within the scientific community that he lacked the objectivity to acknowledge its reliability was not yet proved.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/dna-expert-accused-in-ni-trial-1.887262?mode=amp
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on April 15, 2019, 12:52:51 PM
Imagine if I’d made a similar remark about a disabled sceptic, I’d never have heard the end of it!
We're such insensitive souls, I doubt we'd have even noticed.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on April 15, 2019, 01:25:56 PM
I've recently discovered that it needs to be put simpler than that.

Please stop adding unnecessary asides.  They will be deleted.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on April 15, 2019, 01:27:59 PM
Keeps the supporters happy with the sceptic snipes,what more do you want.

It isn't working for me.  So stop it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 15, 2019, 01:41:03 PM
A DNA expert who testified against two men accused of murdering two British soldiers is prepared to exaggerate and tell partial truths in order to promote his technique, a court was told.

A defence lawyer claimed Dr Mark Perlin was so focused on his “mission” to get his forensic method accepted within the scientific community that he lacked the objectivity to acknowledge its reliability was not yet proved.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/dna-expert-accused-in-ni-trial-1.887262?mode=amp

The defence lawyer was doing his job, but he failed to get the evidence declared inadmissible.
http://www.thepensivequill.com/2012/01/tried-and-acquitted.html
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on April 15, 2019, 06:39:31 PM
Please stop adding unnecessary asides.  They will be deleted.
Not quite sure what this is about, but it does seem a rather draconian policy for a mere 'aside'.
Most of the content posted here is 'an aside'. Also seems somewhat biased.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on April 15, 2019, 07:04:10 PM
Not quite sure what this is about, but it does seem a rather draconian policy for a mere 'aside'.
Most of the content posted here is 'an aside'. Also seems somewhat biased.

Insulting and or unnecessary additions.  This is not up for discussion.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 15, 2019, 07:05:41 PM
We're such insensitive souls, I doubt we'd have even noticed.
When you choose to be, but little snowflakes when you percieve insult or injury to one of your own.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on April 15, 2019, 07:08:42 PM
When you choose to be, but little snowflakes when you percieve insult or injury to one of your own.

Not me - you must be confused
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 15, 2019, 07:10:54 PM
Not me - you must be confused
When you said “we” was that the royal we then?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on April 15, 2019, 07:13:05 PM
When you said “we” was that the royal we then?

But of course. You may kiss my ring if you like.  ?{)(**
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 15, 2019, 07:26:00 PM
But of course. You may kiss my ring if you like.  ?{)(**
Gosh, such sophisticated humour.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 15, 2019, 07:29:28 PM
The defence lawyer was doing his job, but he failed to get the evidence declared inadmissible.
http://www.thepensivequill.com/2012/01/tried-and-acquitted.html

I believe the court ruled that the evidence supported by perlin was not reliable
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 15, 2019, 07:36:14 PM
I believe the court ruled that the evidence supported by perlin was not reliable

Cite?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 15, 2019, 07:38:54 PM
Cite?

The court ruled that the presence of DNA did not place the defendant at the crime scene... The evidence was not a reliable indication....


.

Dr Perlin’s evidence strongly linked Colin Duffy and Brian Shivers to the getaway car used by the killers of English soldiers Mark Quinsey and Patrick Azimkar, who were gunned down outside a Northern Ireland army base two years ago.



So if perlin says his system strongly places Maddie in the car.... Can we believe him.... It seems not
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on April 15, 2019, 09:09:14 PM
I think it's because it's such a large and complicated subject he's trying to tackle. He mentions bias in the police and judiciary briefly, and thats a complicated subject on it's own. Police and judges react differently to different people as we all do. That's why. in the UK, a group of youths from a council estate with a bad reputation are more likely to be arrested and punished by the law if they are fighting in the street than a group of aristocratic youths are for the same offence.

Then he tries to tackle the media reactions to the story and why it developed as it did. Again, a huge subject which was influenced by so many different factors.


I found his observations to be accurate and his demure appropriate for the subject matter- he seems to be reading and writing from an independant remit. Which is refreshing.

We are all very well aware that the media can and do make villans and heros  of the public whether deserving or not.  Brenda Layland a more obvious created villan, along with Amaral, PJ and anyone esle who dare to speak out. but then the tide began to change...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 15, 2019, 09:27:18 PM
The court ruled that the presence of DNA did not place the defendant at the crime scene... The evidence was not a reliable indication....

Dr Perlin’s evidence strongly linked Colin Duffy and Brian Shivers to the getaway car used by the killers of English soldiers Mark Quinsey and Patrick Azimkar, who were gunned down outside a Northern Ireland army base two years ago.

So if perlin says his system strongly places Maddie in the car.... Can we believe him.... It seems not

Firstly, Perlin's evidence was ruled admissible; you said it wasn't. Secondly, do you have a cite or not? Thirdly, Perlin's evidence wasn't enough to prove Duffy was present at the time of the shootings. I would say the DNA evidence was insufficient, not unreliable. Duffy never denied it was his DNA, he said it had been planted.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 15, 2019, 09:38:13 PM
Firstly, Perlin's evidence was ruled admissible; you said it wasn't. Secondly, do you have a cite or not? Thirdly, Perlin's evidence wasn't enough to prove Duffy was present at the time of the shootings. I would say the DNA evidence was insufficient, not unreliable. Duffy never denied it was his DNA, he said it had been planted.
I never said perlins evidence was ruled inadmissible.. You are mistaken... Perlin claimed the DNA strongly linked Duffy to the car... The court didn't accept that.. Thats a cite...


Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 15, 2019, 09:52:02 PM

I found his observations to be accurate and his demure appropriate for the subject matter- he seems to be reading and writing from an independant remit. Which is refreshing.

We are all very well aware that the media can and do make villans and heros  of the public whether deserving or not.  Brenda Layland a more obvious created villan, along with Amaral, PJ and anyone esle who dare to speak out. but then the tide began to change...

I agree with Sonia Poulson. The internet has prevented the McCanns from ensuring that only their version of events will be heard.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 15, 2019, 09:57:29 PM
I agree with Sonia Poulson. The internet has prevented the McCanns from ensuring that only their version of events will be heard.

I think everyone  would agree there's a lot of absolute rubbish on the net
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 15, 2019, 10:17:15 PM
I agree with Sonia Poulson. The internet has prevented the McCanns from ensuring that only their version of events will be heard.
Is that what used to happen in the days pre-internet then?  The suspects controled the media so completely that only their version of events was ever heard?  Like the Dingo Chamberlain woman perhaps? 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 15, 2019, 10:20:43 PM
The internet is wonderful... But it does give everyone a voice... Even those who don't know what they are talking about
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on April 15, 2019, 10:24:19 PM
I agree with Sonia Poulson. The internet has prevented the McCanns from ensuring that only their version of events will be heard.

Kate and Gerry were actually there and experienced the terror of it all first hand ... I rather think "their version of events" is to be relied on in preference to conspiracy theorists inventing scenarios in their minds eye.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 15, 2019, 10:30:49 PM
Is that what used to happen in the days pre-internet then?  The suspects controled the media so completely that only their version of events was ever heard?  Like the Dingo Chamberlain woman perhaps?

I was discussing the McCann case, not every case ever. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 15, 2019, 10:33:50 PM
I was discussing the McCann case, not every case ever.
OK, so without the internet the McCanns would have had complete control of the media, is that what Poulson reckons, and what you agree with?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 16, 2019, 09:01:54 AM
OK, so without the internet the McCanns would have had complete control of the media, is that what Poulson reckons, and what you agree with?

The media haven't challenged the McCann's since the large payouts to them and their friends in my opinion.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on April 16, 2019, 09:25:35 AM
The media haven't challenged the McCann's since the large payouts to them and their friends in my opinion.

Why did the media have to make large payouts to Kate, Gerry and their friends?  If you check out the facts and the evidence of which there is plenty ... it is because the media libelled them ... or put more succinctly ... told deliberate lies about them all.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 16, 2019, 11:54:25 AM
Why did the media have to make large payouts to Kate, Gerry and their friends?  If you check out the facts and the evidence of which there is plenty ... it is because the media libelled them ... or put more succinctly ... told deliberate lies about them all.

It wasn't decided in court, if course, so it's a fact only in so far as it was mutually agreed.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 16, 2019, 12:18:03 PM
It wasn't decided in court, if course, so it's a fact only in so far as it was mutually agreed.

I think you are in denial
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on April 16, 2019, 12:33:16 PM
I think you are in denial
Accusing someone of being "in denial" is about as bad as saying they are arrogant.  Stop making ad hominem statements of other members please.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 16, 2019, 12:34:54 PM
Accusing someone of being "in denial" is about as bad as saying they are arrogant.  Stop making ad hominem statements of other members please.

I think it's fair comment... And it's, simply my opinion
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on April 16, 2019, 12:40:12 PM
I think it's fair comment... And it's, simply my opinion
I won't allow it sorry.  Don't publish your opinion of other members.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 16, 2019, 12:44:47 PM
I won't allow it sorry.  Don't publish your opinion of other members.

Then I want no opinion published on me... None whatsoever... None saying I dont provide cites... Etc

It was your opinion yesterday I'd been hassling g unit... I don't accept that either
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on April 16, 2019, 12:50:28 PM
Then I want no opinion published on me... None whatsoever... None saying I dont provide cites... Etc

It was your opinion yesterday I'd been hassling g unit... I don't accept that either
No problem, I'll just delete posts.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 16, 2019, 12:53:53 PM
No problem, I'll just delete posts.

You are setting a precedent that you should now stick to...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 16, 2019, 02:27:06 PM
I think you are in denial

Do you? The McCanns, and later their friends, accused various newspapers of libel. Was this ever confirmed by a judicial ruling or did the newspapers offer to settle before things got that far?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 16, 2019, 02:30:40 PM
Do you? The McCanns, and later their friends, accused various newspapers of libel. Was this ever confirmed by a judicial ruling or did the newspapers offer to settle before things got that far?

I don't think it needs to be confirmed.  It's patently obvious given the definition of libel in the UK.... Why has no publisher published amarals book in the UK... Because based on UK law it's libellous... Why are libellous posts, removed here... Because it's clear in the UK what is, deemed libellous
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 16, 2019, 02:56:39 PM
I don't think it needs to be confirmed.  It's patently obvious given the definition of libel in the UK.... Why has no publisher published amarals book in the UK... Because based on UK law it's libellous... Why are libellous posts, removed here... Because it's clear in the UK what is, deemed libellous

Nevertheless it wasn't judicially confirmed so it remains opinion. In my opinion the newspapers also libelled Goncalo Amaral.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 16, 2019, 03:17:35 PM
Nevertheless it wasn't judicially confirmed so it remains opinion. In my opinion the newspapers also libelled Goncalo Amaral.

If it was judiclially confirmed it would still be opinion... The judges opinion..... IMO.... The UK papers did not libel amaral as they could prove what they said
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on April 16, 2019, 04:36:28 PM
It wasn't decided in court, if course, so it's a fact only in so far as it was mutually agreed.


Indeed G... it never went to court to be properly challenged. So we don't really know, and it scared the rest of the media from challenging Tapas claims about that night. Nice move. Attack is the first line of defence as they say.

I will say, I thought the behaviour of ALL the media in both courties behaved shamefully toward the McCanns  and Amaral in the beginning. all that petty name calling was disgraceful. AND unhelpful for the real victim - MBM.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 16, 2019, 06:38:55 PM
The media haven't challenged the McCann's since the large payouts to them and their friends in my opinion.
The media is able to challenge without breaking any laws is it not?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on April 16, 2019, 06:49:49 PM
The media is able to challenge without breaking any laws is it not?
Ask searching questions and proposing various theories.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on April 16, 2019, 06:50:33 PM
The media is able to challenge without breaking any laws is it not?

Yes.  But they just get clobbered for more money when they lose.  Which they would have done.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on April 16, 2019, 06:59:36 PM
Yes.  But they just get clobbered for more money when they lose.  Which they would have done.
As I understand it the papers circulation went up everytime they were able to put Madeleine's photo on the front page.  I have a hunch the papers still made more money out of Madeleine than they paid out in the out of court settlements with the McCanns and the friends.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on April 16, 2019, 07:03:19 PM
As I understand it the papers circulation went up everytime they were able to put Madeleine's photo on the front page.  I have a hunch the papers still made more money out of Madeleine than they paid out in the out of court settlements with the McCanns and the friends.

Sadly, you are probably right.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on April 16, 2019, 07:07:56 PM
Sadly, you are probably right.
https://omny.fm/shows/maddie/a-door-marked-closed at 34:20 or thereabouts Mark covers the story about Lord Tim Bell.

At 36:20 into the podcast Mark discusses the payout to the Tapas 9.

At 38:15 he starts talking about Clarence Mitchell.

At 40:00 mark introduces the cadaver dog searches.

At 43:00 he talks about the Supreme Court decision.  ****
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on April 16, 2019, 07:58:34 PM
https://omny.fm/shows/maddie  for the full list of podcasts.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on April 19, 2019, 05:47:27 PM
Not a pod but a piece by Mark Saunokonoko

https://www.9news.com.au/world/madeleine-mccann-goncalo-amaral-book-truth-of-lie-maddie-podcast/e113530d-9a7e-4b7d-a29b-3fa4688d4f7a

Legal and media 'machine' hit Portuguese detective who led Maddie case

By Mark Saunokonoko
10:57am Apr 19, 2019

A powerful "machine" set out to "harm" a Portuguese detective after he wrote a book theorising Madeleine McCann may have died in the family holiday apartment, according to the literary agent who published the retired police officer's best-seller.

In 2008 Goncalo Amaral released The Truth of the Lie, documenting his five months leading the police investigation into Madeleine McCann's disappearance. The controversial book triggered a protracted and bitter legal battle with Kate and Gerry McCann.

The 22-chapter book suggested a theory that Madeleine had died in apartment 5A, an abduction had been simulated and the three-year-old's body was somehow removed from the resort.

In episode eight of Maddie, Nine.com.au's podcast investigation into Madeleine's disappearance, Manuel S. Fonseca of Lisbon-based publisher Guerra & Paz, revealed why his company stood behind Mr Amaral, despite intense criticism of the book from Mr and Mrs McCann and sections of the UK media.

Following court action in 2009, The Truth of the Lie was banned and the McCanns successfully sued Mr Amaral for 500,000 euros. But those judgements were later thrown out by Portugal's highest court.

"There was a machine against [Mr Amaral] and that machine did anything it could to cause him harm, in his personal and professional life," Fonseca told Nine.com.au in a statement.

"I salute my author for his strength in defending his professional integrity and his freedom of speech, as they are stated in the Portuguese Constitution.
"I am a publisher and it is for me a matter of principle not to ban books," Mr Fonseca added.

Mr Amaral's book had detailed various lines of inquiry the Portuguese police had investigated after Maddie vanished. Some Portuguese police appeared to doubt an abduction had occurred, and there were questions over some of the witness statements and timelines that were given to police.
Five months after Madeleine disappearance, Mr Amaral was removed from the investigation following criticism of British police in an interview he gave to a newspaper at the time.
Mr and Mrs McCann said they left Madeleine and their two other children alone while they ate dinner at a nearby restaurant with a group of friends, who became known as the Tapas 7.
They believed an intruder had been watching their apartment and struck while they were out, taking Madeleine from her bed.
Mr and Mrs McCann, both doctors from Rothley, Leicestershire, have strenuously denied they were involved in the disappearance of their daughter. Nine.com.au does not suggest any involvement on their part.

Mr Amaral's book was banned for six years, until the judgment in favour of the McCanns was challenged and overturned. At the time, Mr Amaral had said the ban on his book was "unconstitutional" and flew in the face of Portuguese democracy.

In an earlier episode of Maddie, Nine.com.au obtained and aired never-before-heard audio from the libel trial against Mr Amaral. In that audio, Mr and Mrs McCann can be heard explaining how the publication of the book had caused their family great pain and distress. They said it had detracted from the ongoing search for Madeleine.
Although the book was never published in English, during the trial the McCanns pointed out that English translations of the book were available on the internet and they were concerned at the impact it would have on their twins, Sean and Amelie, as they grew older.
Initially the McCanns were seeking 1.2 million euros in damages from Mr Amaral.
The legal battle against the McCanns and his castigation by British tabloids took a heavy toll on Mr Amaral financially, professionally personally, according to the publisher.
Mr and Mrs McCann later took their case to Portugal's highest court, the Supreme Court, in a bid to have the book ban and libel damages reinstated. But in 2017 the Supreme Court ruled in Mr Amaral's favour.

"The Supreme Court decision unequivocally says that Gonçalo Amaral's book, contrary to what Gerald and Kate McCann alleged, doesn't affect the couple's right to privacy, or even their legitimate right to image and good name, since the facts exposed in the book were all public and known all over the world and they were first in the public police report before Amaral wrote his book," Fonseca told Nine.com.au.

Mr and Mrs McCann have currently lodged a case with the European Court of Human Rights, though that legal battle is against Portugal the sovereign state, rather than Mr Amaral. The McCanns' legal team will try and prove that Portugal has breached one or more of their human rights.
Madeleine was just days away from her fourth birthday when she mysteriously vanished.
Neither Portuguese police or Scotland Yard have made any arrests in the case which has baffled investigators since May 2007.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on April 20, 2019, 12:52:11 PM
Not a pod but a piece by Mark Saunokonoko

https://www.9news.com.au/world/madeleine-mccann-goncalo-amaral-book-truth-of-lie-maddie-podcast/e113530d-9a7e-4b7d-a29b-3fa4688d4f7a

Legal and media 'machine' hit Portuguese detective who led Maddie case

By Mark Saunokonoko
10:57am Apr 19, 2019

A powerful "machine" set out to "harm" a Portuguese detective after he wrote a book theorising Madeleine McCann may have died in the family holiday apartment, according to the literary agent who published the retired police officer's best-seller.

In 2008 Goncalo Amaral released The Truth of the Lie, documenting his five months leading the police investigation into Madeleine McCann's disappearance. The controversial book triggered a protracted and bitter legal battle with Kate and Gerry McCann.

The 22-chapter book suggested a theory that Madeleine had died in apartment 5A, an abduction had been simulated and the three-year-old's body was somehow removed from the resort.

In episode eight of Maddie, Nine.com.au's podcast investigation into Madeleine's disappearance, Manuel S. Fonseca of Lisbon-based publisher Guerra & Paz, revealed why his company stood behind Mr Amaral, despite intense criticism of the book from Mr and Mrs McCann and sections of the UK media.

Following court action in 2009, The Truth of the Lie was banned and the McCanns successfully sued Mr Amaral for 500,000 euros. But those judgements were later thrown out by Portugal's highest court.

"There was a machine against [Mr Amaral] and that machine did anything it could to cause him harm, in his personal and professional life," Fonseca told Nine.com.au in a statement.

"I salute my author for his strength in defending his professional integrity and his freedom of speech, as they are stated in the Portuguese Constitution.
"I am a publisher and it is for me a matter of principle not to ban books," Mr Fonseca added.

Mr Amaral's book had detailed various lines of inquiry the Portuguese police had investigated after Maddie vanished. Some Portuguese police appeared to doubt an abduction had occurred, and there were questions over some of the witness statements and timelines that were given to police.
Five months after Madeleine disappearance, Mr Amaral was removed from the investigation following criticism of British police in an interview he gave to a newspaper at the time.
Mr and Mrs McCann said they left Madeleine and their two other children alone while they ate dinner at a nearby restaurant with a group of friends, who became known as the Tapas 7.
They believed an intruder had been watching their apartment and struck while they were out, taking Madeleine from her bed.
Mr and Mrs McCann, both doctors from Rothley, Leicestershire, have strenuously denied they were involved in the disappearance of their daughter. Nine.com.au does not suggest any involvement on their part.

Mr Amaral's book was banned for six years, until the judgment in favour of the McCanns was challenged and overturned. At the time, Mr Amaral had said the ban on his book was "unconstitutional" and flew in the face of Portuguese democracy.

In an earlier episode of Maddie, Nine.com.au obtained and aired never-before-heard audio from the libel trial against Mr Amaral. In that audio, Mr and Mrs McCann can be heard explaining how the publication of the book had caused their family great pain and distress. They said it had detracted from the ongoing search for Madeleine.
Although the book was never published in English, during the trial the McCanns pointed out that English translations of the book were available on the internet and they were concerned at the impact it would have on their twins, Sean and Amelie, as they grew older.
Initially the McCanns were seeking 1.2 million euros in damages from Mr Amaral.
The legal battle against the McCanns and his castigation by British tabloids took a heavy toll on Mr Amaral financially, professionally personally, according to the publisher.
Mr and Mrs McCann later took their case to Portugal's highest court, the Supreme Court, in a bid to have the book ban and libel damages reinstated. But in 2017 the Supreme Court ruled in Mr Amaral's favour.

"The Supreme Court decision unequivocally says that Gonçalo Amaral's book, contrary to what Gerald and Kate McCann alleged, doesn't affect the couple's right to privacy, or even their legitimate right to image and good name, since the facts exposed in the book were all public and known all over the world and they were first in the public police report before Amaral wrote his book," Fonseca told Nine.com.au.

Mr and Mrs McCann have currently lodged a case with the European Court of Human Rights, though that legal battle is against Portugal the sovereign state, rather than Mr Amaral. The McCanns' legal team will try and prove that Portugal has breached one or more of their human rights.
Madeleine was just days away from her fourth birthday when she mysteriously vanished.
Neither Portuguese police or Scotland Yard have made any arrests in the case which has baffled investigators since May 2007.


He does come across as someone who is unbiased. which is refreshing.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on April 20, 2019, 12:57:26 PM
Not a pod but a piece by Mark Saunokonoko

https://www.9news.com.au/world/madeleine-mccann-goncalo-amaral-book-truth-of-lie-maddie-podcast/e113530d-9a7e-4b7d-a29b-3fa4688d4f7a

Legal and media 'machine' hit Portuguese detective who led Maddie case

By Mark Saunokonoko
10:57am Apr 19, 2019


I think it would tend to indicate which side of the bed he is lying on.  Must be getting desperate that the pod casts don't seem to be having the desired effect.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on April 20, 2019, 01:05:41 PM
 
I think it would tend to indicate which side of the bed he is lying on.  Must be getting desperate that the pod casts don't seem to be having the desired effect.

 @)(++(*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 20, 2019, 01:08:17 PM
I think it would tend to indicate which side of the bed he is lying on.  Must be getting desperate that the pod casts don't seem to be having the desired effect.

What effect does he desire?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on April 20, 2019, 01:08:56 PM
I think it would tend to indicate which side of the bed he is lying on. Must be getting desperate that the pod casts don't seem to be having the desired effect.


Which would be what??
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on April 20, 2019, 01:41:40 PM
Interview with Mark,he is quite compassionate toward the McCann's perhaps he didn't achieve what he set out to do. (&^&

https://audioboom.com/posts/7238518-interview-with-mark-saunokonoko-host-of-the-maddie-podcast-series
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on April 20, 2019, 01:44:34 PM
Interview with Mark,he is quite compassionate toward the McCann's perhaps he didn't achieve what he set out to do. (&^&

https://audioboom.com/posts/7238518-interview-with-mark-saunokonoko-host-of-the-maddie-podcast-series


He is a bladdy sceptic  we are all the bladdy same  alrighty bob-(australian accent to improve quality)
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on April 20, 2019, 05:34:55 PM

He is a bladdy sceptic  we are all the bladdy same  alrighty bob-(australian accent to improve quality)

He does appear to be the present blue eyed boy at the moment ... probably won't be too long till the cry will arise ... the king is dead~long live the king.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on April 20, 2019, 08:15:52 PM
He does appear to be the present blue eyed boy at the moment ... probably won't be too long till the cry will arise ... the king is dead~long live the king.
I thought he would be brown eyed.  (https://i2.wp.com/prod.static9.net.au/_/media/2016/07/25/15/48/2507_mark.jpg)
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on April 20, 2019, 08:37:03 PM
He does appear to be the present blue eyed boy at the moment ... probably won't be too long till the cry will arise ... the king is dead~long live the king.
Which king died?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on April 20, 2019, 11:17:35 PM
Which king died?
Quite a few might have been contenders at one time or another ... how about ...
(http://pbs.twimg.com/media/CLkDYWYXAAEWPoU.jpg)
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on April 20, 2019, 11:22:20 PM
Quite a few might have been contenders at one time or another ... how about ...
(http://pbs.twimg.com/media/CLkDYWYXAAEWPoU.jpg)

I’ll give you that and I’ll raise you Martin Brunt and the ‘100% DNA match’. Another journalist who didn’t check his facts.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on April 21, 2019, 06:32:17 AM
Which king died?
Elvis left the building.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on April 21, 2019, 06:41:43 AM
Elvis left the building.
Who was he?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 21, 2019, 08:35:16 AM
He does appear to be the present blue eyed boy at the moment ... probably won't be too long till the cry will arise ... the king is dead~long live the king.

What is clear is that not everyone is prepared to accept what they are told without question. The McCann's story has never been universally accepted. It's also clear that the attempts to convince the world that those who don't believe their story are deficient in some way has failed. There's no need for a figurehead, it's just refreshing to see those with a platform publicising some of the unanswered/unacknowledged but perfectly valid questions which exist.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on April 21, 2019, 08:43:25 AM
What is clear is that not everyone is prepared to accept what they are told without question. The McCann's story has never been universally accepted. It's also clear that the attempts to convince the world that those who don't believe their story are deficient in some way has failed. There's no need for a figurehead, it's just refreshing to see those with a platform publicising some of the unanswered/unacknowledged but perfectly valid questions which exist.


Perhaps these "unanswered/unacknowledged" questions have been acknowledged and answered to the satisfaction of both current investigations?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on April 21, 2019, 09:05:53 AM

Perhaps these "unanswered/unacknowledged" questions have been acknowledged and answered to the satisfaction of both current investigations?

That would suggest that police had had another question & answer session with Kate, as 'no comment' wouldn't take matters any further.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 21, 2019, 09:15:46 AM
What is clear is that not everyone is prepared to accept what they are told without question. The McCann's story has never been universally accepted. It's also clear that the attempts to convince the world that those who don't believe their story are deficient in some way has failed. There's no need for a figurehead, it's just refreshing to see those with a platform publicising some of the unanswered/unacknowledged but perfectly valid questions which exist.
I'm certainly not prepared to accept what I'm told without question and there are several points, being promoted by mark that simply are not true.  ...his followers accept them without question
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on April 21, 2019, 09:29:15 AM
I'm certainly not prepared to accept what I'm told without question and there are several points, being promoted by mark that simply are not true.  ...his followers accept them without question

McCann followers accept their version with out question so where's the problem.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 21, 2019, 09:34:31 AM
McCann followers accept their version with out question so where's the problem.
Who says they accept the version without question...I don't see that... I see supporters accepting things without question.... It was claimed the dogs had success in 200 cases... UT took a foi request from a supporter to show that was rubbish... But mark s is still promoting it as, a, fact and his followers accept it without question
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on April 21, 2019, 09:35:56 AM
McCann followers accept their version with out question so where's the problem.

This is not true, and only your opinion anyway.  I have always used Logic by questioning possibilities.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 21, 2019, 09:38:22 AM
I'm certainly not prepared to accept what I'm told without question and there are several points, being promoted by mark that simply are not true.  ...his followers accept them without question

For example?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 21, 2019, 09:52:11 AM
For example?

Dogs involved in 200 cases
Shutters couldn't be opened from the outside
A man couldn't fit through the window
Alerts to cadaver and blood
DNA transference is uncommon
Perlins analysis could be a game changer
Dna could corroborate the cadaver alerts
Are just a few
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 21, 2019, 10:34:59 AM
For Davel, Eleanor, Misty, Lace, Brietta, Erngath and other McCann supporters. Your unbiased opinions on the following:

1. What is your opinion on Pamela Fenn's report of crying for 75 minutes in their apartment on Tuesday night?

2. How did the cleaner on Wednesday see a cot in the parents bedroom (after reported crying night)?

3. How did Rachael Oldfield not hear crying from their apartment on Wednesday night?

4. Why did tapas staff say that they did not check every 30 minutes that week? I believe on Thursday that they did.

5. Why did the McCanns delete call records from the mobile phones from the day they arrived in PDL until the disappearance?

6. Why didn't Kate or Gerry immediately call the police themselves knowing that their daughter had been abducted?

7. What is your opinion about police reconstructions with the witnesses involved?

8. Who do you think abducted Madeleine? Is there any sightings that you think are relevant?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on April 21, 2019, 10:35:16 AM
This is not true, and only your opinion anyway.  I have always used Logic by questioning possibilities.

Away with you.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 21, 2019, 10:38:12 AM
Davel, Your unbiased opinions on the following:

1. What is your opinion on Pamela Fenn's report of crying for 75 minutes in their apartment on Tuesday night?

2. How did the cleaner on Wednesday see a cot in the parents bedroom (after reported crying night)?

3. Why did Rachael not hear crying from their apartment on Wednesday night?

4. Why did tapas staff say that they did not check every 30 minutes that week? I believe on Thursday that they did.

5. Why did the McCanns delete call records from the mobile phones from the day they arrived in PDL until the disappearance?

6. Why didn't Kate or Gerry immediately call the police themselves knowing that their daughter had been abducted?

7. What is your opinion about police reconstructions with the witnesses involved?

8. Who do you think abducted Madeleine? Is there any sightings that you think are relevant?
All those have been discussed at length.. I don't see the point in doing it again..
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on April 21, 2019, 10:40:14 AM
Davel, Your unbiased opinions on the following:

1. What is your opinion on Pamela Fenn's report of crying for 75 minutes in their apartment on Tuesday night?

2. How did the cleaner on Wednesday see a cot in the parents bedroom (after reported crying night)?

3. How did Rachael not hear crying from their apartment on Wednesday night?

4. Why did tapas staff say that they did not check every 30 minutes that week? I believe on Thursday that they did.

5. Why did the McCanns delete call records from the mobile phones from the day they arrived in PDL until the disappearance?

6. Why didn't Kate or Gerry immediately call the police themselves knowing that their daughter had been abducted?

7. What is your opinion about police reconstructions with the witnesses involved?

8. Who do you think abducted Madeleine? Is there any sightings that you think are relevant?

Is this an Easter edition of Mastermind , specialist subject  'PJ police Files' ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 21, 2019, 10:45:58 AM
Dogs involved in 200 cases
Shutters couldn't be opened from the outside
A man couldn't fit through the window
Alerts to cadaver and blood
DNA transference is uncommon
Perlins analysis could be a game changer
Dna could corroborate the cadaver alerts
Are just a few

At least he's highlighting the fact that there are other opinions in existence, which is what journalists are supposed to do. What about Joe Moura? He gave him a say too, and he believes Madeleine was abducted.


Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 21, 2019, 10:51:20 AM
At least he's highlighting the fact that there are other opinions in existence, which is what journalists are supposed to do. What about Joe Moura? He gave him a say too, and he believes Madeleine was abducted.

highlighting things taht are patently untrue is not conducive to justice...you onvioulsy think thats ok
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on April 21, 2019, 11:09:15 AM
Away with you.

Not an option for me.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 21, 2019, 11:28:42 AM
highlighting things taht are patently untrue is not conducive to justice...you onvioulsy think thats ok

I agree, but my reasons are not the same as yours.  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on April 21, 2019, 11:29:01 AM
Not an option for me.


Everyone has options.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 21, 2019, 11:33:58 AM
I agree, but my reasons are not the same as yours.  @)(++(*

I've pointed out things he's saying that are untrue... So you agree he should not be promoting them
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on April 21, 2019, 11:34:46 AM

Everyone has options.

Not if you have some sense of honour, you don't.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 21, 2019, 02:11:04 PM
I've pointed out things he's saying that are untrue... So you agree he should not be promoting them

I agree that promoting untruths isn't condusive to justice. I'm thinking of things like jemmied shutters, an open front door, a cloloboma, being left to search all alone....
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 21, 2019, 02:15:04 PM
I agree that promoting untruths isn't condusive to justice. I'm thinking of things like jemmied shutters, an open front door, a cloloboma, being left to search all alone....

I haven't heard the McCanns refer to the eye defect as a coloboma.. Cite.. Nor shutters as being gemmied... Nor left to search all alone... So that's, 3 untruths from you
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 21, 2019, 02:30:59 PM
I haven't heard the McCanns refer to the eye defect as a coloboma.. Cite.. Nor shutters as being gemmied... Nor left to search all alone... So that's, 3 untruths from you

I never said they said those things.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on April 21, 2019, 02:34:27 PM
I haven't heard the McCanns refer to the eye defect as a coloboma.. Cite.. Nor shutters as being gemmied... Nor left to search all alone... So that's, 3 untruths from you

Insignificant point....no cite needed.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 21, 2019, 02:42:43 PM
I never said they said those things.

you cited three things staed in the early confused days....Mark s is promoting things taht arent true 12 yeras on..but it doesnt matter because he and his podcasts will sink into obscurity...if they were based on truth thye might make a diference
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: kizzy on April 21, 2019, 03:08:20 PM
you cited three things staed in the early confused days....Mark s is promoting things taht arent true 12 yeras on..but it doesnt matter because he and his podcasts will sink into obscurity...if they were based on truth thye might make a diference

What like the mcs truthfulness - when they said checking every 15 mins.

When kmc said herself 30 to 45 mins.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on April 21, 2019, 03:53:10 PM
you cited three things staed in the early confused days....Mark s is promoting things taht arent true 12 yeras on..but it doesnt matter because he and his podcasts will sink into obscurity...if they were based on truth thye might make a diference

I confess that I haven't bothered to listen to his podcasts as the information I can glean is that it is just the same old ... the only difference being it is said in an Australian accent.

Has he said anything new or constructive or giving any insight or any contribution of value to Madeleine's case?  I doubt it.  In the absence of anything of significance ... I think obscurity beckons despite his expert manipulation of the media.
Just a matter of time.
(http://www.storiestogrowby.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Emperors-new-clothes-color-1.jpg)
The Emperor's New Clothes Audio Story Podcast for Kids
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 21, 2019, 03:57:01 PM
Who says they accept the version without question...I don't see that... I see supporters accepting things without question.... It was claimed the dogs had success in 200 cases... UT took a foi request from a supporter to show that was rubbish... But mark s is still promoting it as, a, fact and his followers accept it without question
Remember the sceptics were convinced it was impossible to open the shutters from outside too, and how much backtracking and spinning they had to do when it wasr revealed that they could indeed be opened from outside.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 21, 2019, 04:24:13 PM
All those have been discussed at length.. I don't see the point in doing it again..

One not man enough for the challenge. Is there anyone man enough?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on April 21, 2019, 05:19:52 PM
One not man enough for the challenge. Is there anyone man enough?

What did Mark Saunokonoko make of the questions you asked in his podcasts ... whatever it was I'm sure you will interpret it to suit yourself. 
Why would anyone indulge you in answering a questionnaire to be scoffed at, which seems to be the fate of any difference of opinion or researched fact.

For example ... what exactly did Mrs Fenn say in her statement ... which wasn't verbatim.  We know what the interpreter thought, but what Mrs Fenn actually said will remain a mystery till the end of time.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 21, 2019, 06:26:20 PM
"She also refers to the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22.30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger. Apart from the crying that continued for approximately one hour and fifteen minutes, and which got louder and more expressive, the child shouted 'Daddy, Daddy', the witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below. At about 23.45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse." https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on April 21, 2019, 06:38:21 PM
For Davel, Eleanor, Misty, Lace, Brietta, Erngath and other McCann supporters. Your unbiased opinions on the following:

1. What is your opinion on Pamela Fenn's report of crying for 75 minutes in their apartment on Tuesday night?

2. How did the cleaner on Wednesday see a cot in the parents bedroom (after reported crying night)?

3. How did Rachael Oldfield not hear crying from their apartment on Wednesday night?

4. Why did tapas staff say that they did not check every 30 minutes that week? I believe on Thursday that they did.

5. Why did the McCanns delete call records from the mobile phones from the day they arrived in PDL until the disappearance?

6. Why didn't Kate or Gerry immediately call the police themselves knowing that their daughter had been abducted?

7. What is your opinion about police reconstructions with the witnesses involved?

8. Who do you think abducted Madeleine? Is there any sightings that you think are relevant?
1. What is your opinion on Pamela Fenn's report of crying for 75 minutes in their apartment on Tuesday night?
Answer: Can we be certain she didn't dose off during that period and missed another visit by the parents?

2. How did the cleaner on Wednesday see a cot in the parents bedroom (after reported crying night)?   Answer: She was Mistaken.

3. How did Rachael Oldfield not hear crying from their apartment on Wednesday night?   
Answer: Maybe she dosed off too and missed it.

4. Why did tapas staff say that they did not check every 30 minutes that week? I believe on Thursday that they did.
Answer: Who was keeping a record?  Why were they keeping a record?

5. Why did the McCanns delete call records from the mobile phones from the day they arrived in PDL until the disappearance?  Answer: Who knows?

6. Why didn't Kate or Gerry immediately call the police themselves knowing that their daughter had been abducted?   
Answer: Gerry dominates and I can't recall Gerry ever saying he immediately thought Madeleine was abducted.

7. What is your opinion about police reconstructions with the witnesses involved? 
Answer: There was never any real intention to do a reconstruction.

8. Who do you think abducted Madeleine? Is there any sightings that you think are relevant?
Answer: I still think she was a replacement child. 





Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 21, 2019, 06:49:15 PM
Remember the sceptics were convinced it was impossible to open the shutters from outside too, and how much backtracking and spinning they had to do when it wasr revealed that they could indeed be opened from outside.

I don't think the how matters as much as the if and the why.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on April 21, 2019, 07:20:39 PM
I don't think the how matters as much as the if and the why.

As no one appears to have gone in or out, it seems rather irrelevant. Almost as if it were staged..
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on April 21, 2019, 07:56:26 PM
"She also refers to the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22.30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger. Apart from the crying that continued for approximately one hour and fifteen minutes, and which got louder and more expressive, the child shouted 'Daddy, Daddy', the witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below. At about 23.45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse." https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm

        "TRANSLATION BY INES"
NOT a transcript of Mrs Fenn's recorded verbatim statement ... but an amateur translation of an interpreter's translation from Mrs Fenn's statement given in English and translated into Portuguese then translated back into English by Ines.  What could possibly go wrong?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 21, 2019, 07:57:26 PM
I don't think the how matters as much as the if and the why.
That really wasn’t my point, as well you know.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 21, 2019, 08:35:17 PM
        "TRANSLATION BY INES"
NOT a transcript of Mrs Fenn's recorded verbatim statement ... but an amateur translation of an interpreter's translation from Mrs Fenn's statement given in English and translated into Portuguese then translated back into English by Ines.  What could possibly go wrong?

2230 and 2345 is the same in English and Portuguese. That's how long she heard crying from the apartment below!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 21, 2019, 09:02:06 PM
That really wasn’t my point, as well you know.

Your point, imo, was to suggest a shared sceptic belief and scoff at it. Your problem is that sceptics don't share that belief; you just believe they do.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on April 21, 2019, 09:31:46 PM
2230 and 2345 is the same in English and Portuguese. That's how long she heard crying from the apartment below!

Mrs Fenn did not speak Portuguese.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 21, 2019, 09:48:08 PM
 @)(++(* She could see the times 2230 and 2345 were correct before signing her statement.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on April 22, 2019, 02:17:38 AM
@)(++(* She could see the times 2230 and 2345 were correct before signing her statement.
But can we be certain she stayed awake during those times?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 22, 2019, 05:07:43 AM
Your point, imo, was to suggest a shared sceptic belief and scoff at it. Your problem is that sceptics don't share that belief; you just believe they do.
It WAS a shared sceptic belief, I did not claim ALL sceptics believed it but the ones I encountered on various social media back in the day were mostly pretty vocal about putting this “impossibility” forward as a reason why the abduction did not happen.  That aspect has since been dropped from the propaganda agenda.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 22, 2019, 08:21:37 AM
It WAS a shared sceptic belief, I did not claim ALL sceptics believed it but the ones I encountered on various social media back in the day were mostly pretty vocal about putting this “impossibility” forward as a reason why the abduction did not happen.  That aspect has since been dropped from the propaganda agenda.

May i suggest you say 'some sceptics' if that's what you mean, then?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 22, 2019, 08:25:42 AM
May i suggest you say 'some sceptics' if that's what you mean, then?
There are lots of sceptic beliefs and that is (or was) one of them.  If you have a problem with my posts I suggest you either ignore them or report them if you find them inaccurate or grammatically wanting.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 22, 2019, 08:57:34 AM
There are lots of sceptic beliefs and that is (or was) one of them.  If you have a problem with my posts I suggest you either ignore them or report them if you find them inaccurate or grammatically wanting.

It's your choice, but each time you assert that sceptics have shared beliefs you are stating opinion as fact and I will correct you. If we are basing our opinions on our own observations my opinion is that the only evidence of shared beliefs I've seen is on a well-known supporter cite (STM) where I've seen no disagreement whatsoever. CMOMM, on the other hand, has differences of opinion.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on April 22, 2019, 09:08:57 AM
There are lots of sceptic beliefs and that is (or was) one of them.  If you have a problem with my posts I suggest you either ignore them or report them if you find them inaccurate or grammatically wanting.
Can one report a post for being inaccurate or grammatically wanting?  Is that a forum feature I have missed?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on April 22, 2019, 09:11:27 AM
Can one report a post for being inaccurate or grammatically wanting?  Is that a forum feature I have missed?

Inaccurate in your opinion, Yes.  Grammatically Wanting, No.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on April 22, 2019, 09:21:25 AM
Inaccurate in your opinion, Yes.  Grammatically Wanting, No.
Inaccurate?

Is that on the list of options when reporting a post?

I thought the appropriate response to an allegedly inaccurate post was to rebut it in open forum.  I will correct my post if I am shown to be inaccurate.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on April 22, 2019, 10:10:57 AM
Inaccurate?

Is that on the list of options when reporting a post?

I thought the appropriate response to an allegedly inaccurate post was to rebut it in open forum.  I will correct my post if I am shown to be inaccurate.

Inaccurate has several definitions, some of which are not acceptable.

Rebut anything that you think is inaccurate, On Forum, In Your Opinion.  Or supply a Cite. 

You can Report it as well, but this often leads to Deleted Replies to Deleted Posts.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on April 22, 2019, 10:36:06 AM
Inaccurate has several definitions, some of which are not acceptable.

Rebut anything that you think is inaccurate, On Forum, In Your Opinion.  Or supply a Cite. 

You can Report it as well, but this often leads to Deleted Replies to Deleted Posts.
May I ask how a moderator would be able to determine if a post is inaccurate?  It's not a moderators task, surely.  Otherwise I would be reporting hundreds of posts on the basis that they are inaccurate.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 22, 2019, 10:46:44 AM
Can one report a post for being inaccurate or grammatically wanting?  Is that a forum feature I have missed?

It depends if the inaccuaracy is significant... You may remember
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on April 22, 2019, 10:51:51 AM
It depends if the inaccuaracy is significant... You may remember
Nope, I have no memory of an inaccurate post being reported.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 22, 2019, 10:55:55 AM
Nope, I have no memory of an inaccurate post being reported.

I've reported several if yours for being innacurate... But it seems they ate only removed if they are significant... Yours it seems were judged not to be
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on April 22, 2019, 11:23:58 AM
I've reported several if yours for being innacurate... But it seems they ate only removed if they are significant... Yours it seems were judged not to be
Well done.   &^^&*

I report posts when I think they breach the forum rules.  Goading.  Ad Hom.  Libel.

And no, I don't check or whether the mods agreed with me.  I have better things to do with my remaining years.  Such is life.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on April 22, 2019, 11:28:27 AM
May I ask how a moderator would be able to determine if a post is inaccurate?  It's not a moderators task, surely.  Otherwise I would be reporting hundreds of posts on the basis that they are inaccurate.

It is sometimes more obvious, but I often have trouble deciding, which is why I don't do a lot of Deleting.

Ultimately, John has the last word, and does reinstate comments deleted by Moderators.  How much more fair do you want?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 22, 2019, 11:50:53 AM
1. What is your opinion on Pamela Fenn's report of crying for 75 minutes in their apartment on Tuesday night?
Answer: Can we be certain she didn't dose off during that period and missed another visit by the parents?

2. How did the cleaner on Wednesday see a cot in the parents bedroom (after reported crying night)?   Answer: She was Mistaken.

3. How did Rachael Oldfield not hear crying from their apartment on Wednesday night?   
Answer: Maybe she dosed off too and missed it.

4. Why did tapas staff say that they did not check every 30 minutes that week? I believe on Thursday that they did.
Answer: Who was keeping a record?  Why were they keeping a record?

5. Why did the McCanns delete call records from the mobile phones from the day they arrived in PDL until the disappearance?  Answer: Who knows?

6. Why didn't Kate or Gerry immediately call the police themselves knowing that their daughter had been abducted?   
Answer: Gerry dominates and I can't recall Gerry ever saying he immediately thought Madeleine was abducted.

7. What is your opinion about police reconstructions with the witnesses involved? 
Answer: There was never any real intention to do a reconstruction.

8. Who do you think abducted Madeleine? Is there any sightings that you think are relevant?
Answer: I still think she was a replacement child.

Can you explain how Mrs Fenn called her friend that night if you believe she had fallen asleep? At the time crying was happening the McCanns said they were back in their apartment and there was none.
 
Do you think they will be classed as unreliable witnesses if that phone call is proven?

Mrs Fenn was awake at 2230 on 3 May when she offered Gerry her phone to call the police. And you think she was asleep? Your answer does not add up.

"That night she contacted a friend called EDNA GLYN, who also lives in Praia da Luz, after 23.00, telling her about the situation." https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm

You believe Rachael dozed off as well. Did everyone fall asleep apart from the McCanns?

He said that he was sure immediately that his daughter had been abducted. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45694119
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on April 22, 2019, 11:53:33 AM
It is sometimes more obvious, but I often have trouble deciding, which is why I don't do a lot of Deleting.

Ultimately, John has the last word, and does reinstate comments deleted by Moderators.  How much more fair do you want?

I don't want more fair.  If I did, I would have left the forum, and set up another one.  In the words of another forum member, any Tom, Dick or Harry can do it.  Even cheaper than chips.

Talking about food, which I love, would you bring your recipe for duck to my table for six?  My Xmas treat was also duck.

Mine was frozen.  I'd guess yours was fresh.  I'm trying to cajole my neighbour into supplying duck eggs (yummy) and a freshly killed duck (yummy), but he struggles with English, and I struggle with Portuguese.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on April 22, 2019, 11:56:53 AM
Can you explain how Mrs Fenn called her friend that night if you believe she had fallen asleep? At the time crying was happening the McCanns said they were back in their apartment and there was none.
 
Do you think they will be classed as unreliable witnesses if that phone call is proven?

Mrs Fenn was awake at 2230 on 3 May when she offered Gerry her phone to call the police. And you think she was asleep? Your answer does not add up.

"That night she contacted a friend called EDNA GLYN, who also lives in Praia da Luz, after 23.00, telling her about the situation." https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm

You believe Rachael dozed off as well. Did everyone fall asleep apart from the McCanns?

Hasn't Mark Saunokonoko sourced the phone records for confirmation? ... I doubt either Mrs Fenn or her friend used burners ... much more likely to have been land lines.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 22, 2019, 12:07:07 PM
Do you think the McCanns will be classed as unreliable if that phone call is proven?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on April 22, 2019, 12:22:44 PM
I don't want more fair.  If I did, I would have left the forum, and set up another one.  In the words of another forum member, any Tom, Dick or Harry can do it.  Even cheaper than chips.

Talking about food, which I love, would you bring your recipe for duck to my table for six?  My Xmas treat was also duck.

Mine was frozen.  I'd guess yours was fresh.  I'm trying to cajole my neighbour into supplying duck eggs (yummy) and a freshly killed duck (yummy), but he struggles with English, and I struggle with Portuguese.

I just stick Duck in the oven and hope to catch it before it stops bleeding.

The Duck we had last Noel was one of the very few on offer after it's Liver had been removed for Foie Gras, so it was big, and obviously well fed.  I did stuff it, but don't ask about that because my stuffing is never the same twice.

Does Portugal do Foie Gras?  I don't have a problem with this.  When in Rome.

If you can get such a Duck, start looking around the middle of November.  They don't come frozen, but I did have to freeze mine for a month.  It was bloody lovely, by the way.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on April 22, 2019, 12:26:07 PM
I don't want more fair.  If I did, I would have left the forum, and set up another one.  In the words of another forum member, any Tom, Dick or Harry can do it.  Even cheaper than chips.

Talking about food, which I love, would you bring your recipe for duck to my table for six?  My Xmas treat was also duck.

Mine was frozen.  I'd guess yours was fresh.  I'm trying to cajole my neighbour into supplying duck eggs (yummy) and a freshly killed duck (yummy), but he struggles with English, and I struggle with Portuguese.

I will try to think of some of the things I put in Stuffing.  That might be a laugh.  Where does one get Chestnuts for a start.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on April 22, 2019, 12:40:39 PM
Can you explain how Mrs Fenn called her friend that night if you believe she had fallen asleep? At the time crying was happening the McCanns said they were back in their apartment and there was none.
 
Do you think they will be classed as unreliable witnesses if that phone call is proven?

Mrs Fenn was awake at 2230 on 3 May when she offered Gerry her phone to call the police. And you think she was asleep? Your answer does not add up.

"That night she contacted a friend called EDNA GLYN, who also lives in Praia da Luz, after 23.00, telling her about the situation." https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm

You believe Rachael dozed off as well. Did everyone fall asleep apart from the McCanns?
I know from personal experience I doze off in the evening when watching TV.  In and out of sleep while the program is going on.  Missing bits all the time.   

If you are sick the same thing happens, you call fall asleep.

If you look at Mrs Fenn's statement the fact that she only hears Kate screaming at 10:30 also points to the likelihood that she was asleep between 10:00 and 10:30 PM that night.

"During the day nothing unusual happened, until almost 22.30 when, being alone again, she heard the hysterical shouts from a female person, calling out ?we have let her down? which she repeated several times, quite upset. Mrs Fenn then saw that it was the mother of little Madeleine who was shouting furiously. Upon leaning over the terrace, after having seen the mother, Mrs Fenn asked the father, Gerry, what was happening to which he replied that a small girl had been abducted. When asked, she replied that she did not leave her apartment, just spoke to Gerry from her balcony, which had a view over the terrace of the floor below. She found it strange that Gerry when said that a girl had been abducted, he did not mention that it was his daughter and that he did not mention any other scenarios. At that moment she offered Gerry help, saying that he could use her phone to contact the authorities, to which he replied that this had already been done. It was just after 22.30."
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 22, 2019, 12:57:44 PM
I know from personal experience I doze off in the evening when watching TV.  In and out of sleep while the program is going on.  Missing bits all the time.   

If you are sick the same thing happens, you call fall asleep.

If you look at Mrs Fenn's statement the fact that she only hears Kate screaming at 10:30 also points to the likelihood that she was asleep between 10:00 and 10:30 PM that night.

"During the day nothing unusual happened, until almost 22.30 when, being alone again, she heard the hysterical shouts from a female person, calling out ?we have let her down? which she repeated several times, quite upset. Mrs Fenn then saw that it was the mother of little Madeleine who was shouting furiously. Upon leaning over the terrace, after having seen the mother, Mrs Fenn asked the father, Gerry, what was happening to which he replied that a small girl had been abducted. When asked, she replied that she did not leave her apartment, just spoke to Gerry from her balcony, which had a view over the terrace of the floor below. She found it strange that Gerry when said that a girl had been abducted, he did not mention that it was his daughter and that he did not mention any other scenarios. At that moment she offered Gerry help, saying that he could use her phone to contact the authorities, to which he replied that this had already been done. It was just after 22.30."

"She also said that before hearing the shouts she was watching television, as she often stays up late."  So not asleep.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on April 22, 2019, 12:59:42 PM
"She also said that before hearing the shouts she was watching television, as she often stays up late."  So not asleep.
That is what I was saying it is possible to fall asleep while watching TV.  It doesn't mean you are awake all the time.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 22, 2019, 01:17:38 PM
That is what I was saying it is possible to fall asleep while watching TV.  It doesn't mean you are awake all the time.

She did not say that and as she often stays up late she is used to staying awake.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on April 22, 2019, 01:23:28 PM
That is what I was saying it is possible to fall asleep while watching TV.  It doesn't mean you are awake all the time.

It might be possible, but it's pure invention to bring it forward an an excuse. Why not stick with known facts ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 22, 2019, 01:37:36 PM
It might be possible, but it's pure invention to bring it forward an an excuse. Why not stick with known facts ?

I agree.. We don't know, how factual Mrs Fenns statement is... Let's stick to that
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 22, 2019, 02:13:13 PM
It's your choice, but each time you assert that sceptics have shared beliefs you are stating opinion as fact and I will correct you. If we are basing our opinions on our own observations my opinion is that the only evidence of shared beliefs I've seen is on a well-known supporter cite (STM) where I've seen no disagreement whatsoever. CMOMM, on the other hand, has differences of opinion.
You have no beliefs (or none that you care to share with us) so take as read that when I refer to “sceptic beliefs” I’m not including you, hope that satisfies you.   ?{)(**
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 22, 2019, 02:22:05 PM
You have no beliefs (or none that you care to share with us) so take as read that when I refer to “sceptic beliefs” I’m not including you, hope that satisfies you.   ?{)(**

Thank you for finally acknowledging that I have no beliefs. I will still challenge anyone stating opiion as fact, however, and the assertions about sceptic beliefs are all unsupported opinions imo.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 22, 2019, 02:24:27 PM
Thank you for finally acknowledging that I have no beliefs. I will still challenge anyone stating opiion as fact, however,

i think you have plenty of beliefs...one being taht the statements are accurate
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 22, 2019, 02:29:55 PM
I agree.. We don't know, how factual Mrs Fenns statement is... Let's stick to that

Yeah I can't wait to see the proof or not of her phone call to confirm who is unreliable.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on April 22, 2019, 03:09:10 PM
Do you think the McCanns will be classed as unreliable if that phone call is proven?

I would have imagined that a journalist of Mark Saunokonoko's calibre would have sourced all that prior to podcasting about it.
Then again ... maybe not.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on April 22, 2019, 03:16:30 PM
That is what I was saying it is possible to fall asleep while watching TV.  It doesn't mean you are awake all the time.

I've started to record programmes I really want to see because I'm fed up waking up to closing credits.  It wasn't an aspect of my thinking re Mrs Fenn ... but it is perfectly possible for it to have happened.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 22, 2019, 03:25:00 PM

Del
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on April 22, 2019, 04:29:35 PM
I will try to think of some of the things I put in Stuffing.  That might be a laugh.  Where does one get Chestnuts for a start.

Crikey.  I had a (frozen) duck's leg.  I don't do stuffing, though my better half loves it.  You would need to teach me. And I have never had a chestnut in my life, so I've got no idea where I would find some if my life depended on it.

I feel another light and frothy thread coming on for May.

The Great International Cook-off Challenge?

Yummy yummy in my tummy.  &^^&*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 22, 2019, 04:32:46 PM
Crikey.  I had a (frozen) duck's leg.  I don't do stuffing, though my better half loves it.  You would need to teach me. And I have never had a chestnut in my life, so I've got no idea where I would find some if my life depended on it.

I feel another light and frothy thread coming on for May.

The Great International Cook-off Challenge?

Yummy yummy in my tummy.  &^^&*

try tesco....I cant believe youve never eaten chestnuts...i remeber when they were sold on the street...same as baked potatoes
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on April 22, 2019, 04:45:38 PM

I'm not going to tell you anything more about Chestnuts.  I will save that laugh for the Thread.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on April 22, 2019, 04:55:57 PM
From Twitter:

Maddie update: Because of a significant interview secured late last week and the Easter break, E9 won't be released until later this week. Apologies for busting the Monday cycle. E9 will be worth the wait #McCann

Mark Saunokonoko
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 22, 2019, 05:00:18 PM
i think you have plenty of beliefs...one being taht the statements are accurate

If witnesses didn't agree with their statements they didn't have to sign them.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 22, 2019, 05:05:50 PM
If witnesses didn't agree with their statements they didn't have to sign them.

They would be under pressure to sign and there's no proof they understood them.....
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 22, 2019, 05:09:34 PM
They would be under pressure to sign and there's no proof they understood them.....

That's opinion, not fact.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on April 22, 2019, 05:13:57 PM
try tesco....I cant believe youve never eaten chestnuts...i remeber when they were sold on the street...same as baked potatoes
We don't have a Tesco in the Algarve.  So I have still to taste my first chestnut.

Here's a challenge for you.  Your wife will be asked to attend my Grand Cookoff Challenge in May.  So kindly ask her what her she thinks is her signature dish.

My granddaughter wanted to go for a family meal in Lagos.  Because although the restaurant  is allegedly Italian, she likes their Thai green curry.

I do a wicked Thai green curry.

The challenge is on!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 22, 2019, 05:14:03 PM
Crikey.  I had a (frozen) duck's leg.  I don't do stuffing, though my better half loves it.  You would need to teach me. And I have never had a chestnut in my life, so I've got no idea where I would find some if my life depended on it.

I feel another light and frothy thread coming on for May.

The Great International Cook-off Challenge?

Yummy yummy in my tummy.  &^^&*

Just finished the BBQ for my flock... All meat is prepared sous vide then seared on the BBQ.. I only cook vegetables on the barby.. Sweetcorn is particularly good... No frozen meat.. Everything sourced from local butchers with local suppliers...makes a massive difference.. Pudding.. Ice cream or panacotta.. ..the only addition this year being my latest Foray into sushi... My excuse to buy a proper sharp Japanese knife.   
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 22, 2019, 05:14:58 PM
We don't have a Tesco in the Algarve.  So I have still to taste my first chestnut.

Here's a challenge for you.  Your wife will be asked to attend my Grand Cookoff Challenge in May.  So kindly ask her what her she thinks is her signature dish.

My granddaughter wanted to go for a family meal in Lagos.  Because although the restaurant  is allegedly Italian, she likes their Thai green curry.

I do a wicked Thai green curry.

The challenge is on!

What vegetables do you put in your this green curry and how do you prepare your basic paste and what are the ingredients ..I'm surprised  there are no tesco's in the, algarve... They are worldwide

I suspect your  Thai green curry is nothing more than a bottle of sauce.. Lol.

The ingredients sre, quite difficult Ti get hold of.. Even tesci doesn't have them
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on April 22, 2019, 05:24:42 PM
Just finished the BBQ for my flock... All meat is prepared sous vide then seared on the BBQ.. I only cook vegetables on the barby.. Sweetcorn is particularly good... No frozen meat.. Everything sourced from local butchers with local suppliers...makes a massive difference.. Pudding.. Ice cream or panacotta.. ..the only addition this year being my latest Foray into sushi... My excuse to buy a proper sharp Japanese knife.
Crikey.   &%%6

Perhaps you get one of my very restricted 5 guest cooks place around my dinner table.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on April 22, 2019, 05:29:11 PM
Just finished the BBQ for my flock... All meat is prepared sous vide then seared on the BBQ.. I only cook vegetables on the barby.. Sweetcorn is particularly good... No frozen meat.. Everything sourced from local butchers with local suppliers...makes a massive difference.. Pudding.. Ice cream or panacotta.. ..the only addition this year being my latest Foray into sushi... My excuse to buy a proper sharp Japanese knife.

I find sashimi much more delicate in the mouth but, of course, much greater skill is needed to prepare it. As to Japanese knives, I’d recommend Global but you will have to buy a sharper designed especially for them to ensure they remain super sharp.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on April 22, 2019, 05:32:46 PM
What vegetables do you put in your this green curry and how do you prepare your basic paste and what are the ingredients ..I'm surprised  there are no tesco's in the, algarve... They are worldwide

I suspect your  Thai green curry is nothing more than a bottle of sauce.. Lol.

The ingredients sre, quite difficult Ti get hold of.. Even tesci doesn't have them

Best go to Waitrose or have them delivered by Ocado. I find they have a better range of exotic ingredients than most other supermarkets or better still, source your ingredients from an Thai supermarket.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 22, 2019, 05:33:10 PM
I find sashimi much more delicate in the mouth but, of course, much greater skill is need to prepare it. As to Japanese knives, I’d recommend Global but you will have to buy a sharper designed especially for them to ensure they remain super sharp.

Sashimi is, simply sliced salmon or tuna... With soy and wasabi... Very simple to prepare.. Nigiri is good too.. Took a little experimentation to get the rice cokef properly and then seasoned properly... I'm experimenting with sharpening... Using a stone at the moment
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on April 22, 2019, 05:34:36 PM
Sashimi is, simply sliced salmon or tuna... With soy and wasabi... Very simple to prepare.. Nigiri is good too.. Took a little experimentation to get the rice cokef properly and then seasoned properly... I'm experimenting with sharpening... Using a stone at the moment

You obviously have never prepared authentic sashimi.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 22, 2019, 05:34:50 PM
Best go to Waitrose or have them delivered by Ocado. I find they have a better range of exotic ingredients than most other supermarkets or better still, source your ingredients from an Thai supermarket.

Chinatown is best.. I'm just wondering what veg sil uses.. Pea aubergines are authentic and you won't get those at waitrose
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 22, 2019, 05:36:49 PM
You obviously have never prepared authentic sashimi.

I've prepared sashimi.. I'm not Japanese so it's not authentic... I've eaten it restaurants around the world and mines as good as any... It's thinly sliced salmon... That's it.. What is difficult about that
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on April 22, 2019, 05:39:27 PM
Chinatown is best.. I'm just wondering what veg sil uses.. Pea aubergines are authentic and you won't get those at waitrose
We don't have a Waitrose in the Algarve.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 22, 2019, 05:41:02 PM
We don't have a Waitrose in the Algarve.

Yes I know... You must find it difficult to get authentic ingredients fir your that green curry
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on April 22, 2019, 05:42:12 PM
Chinatown is best.. I'm just wondering what veg sil uses.. Pea aubergines are authentic and you won't get those at waitrose

You can buy pea aubergines in a jar but I buy mine from a Thai wholesaler.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 22, 2019, 05:43:19 PM
We don't have a Waitrose in the Algarve.

It's probably best to concentrate on local dishes... Local ingtedients
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on April 22, 2019, 05:46:26 PM
I've prepared sashimi.. I'm not Japanese so it's not authentic... I've eaten it restaurants around the world and mines as good as any... It's thinly sliced salmon... That's it.. What is difficult about that

Done properly it takes great skill.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 22, 2019, 05:48:30 PM
Done properly it takes great skill.

I doubt it tastes, any different ...simply slicing... No cooking..
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 22, 2019, 05:54:16 PM
Done properly it takes great skill.

Like making tea japanese style ...but at the end of the day it's a cup of tea... And nothing  beats my Guan Yin tea
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 22, 2019, 06:39:53 PM
Sashimi is, simply sliced salmon or tuna... With soy and wasabi... Very simple to prepare.. Nigiri is good too.. Took a little experimentation to get the rice cokef properly and then seasoned properly... I'm experimenting with sharpening... Using a stone at the moment
We have made our own Californian rolls before but blimey what a palaver.  Cheaper and easier to get them from Yo! Sushi. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 22, 2019, 07:18:34 PM
We have made our own Californian rolls before but blimey what a palaver.  Cheaper and easier to get them from Yo! Sushi.

They can be made in minutes... We don't have a sushi restaurant within an hours round trip and none that deliver..
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 22, 2019, 07:29:16 PM
I'm eating a fish finger sandwich with salt. vinegar and HP sauce. Nice.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on April 22, 2019, 07:44:28 PM
I agree.. We don't know, how factual Mrs Fenns statement is... Let's stick to that
You don't know how factual Mrs Fenn's statement was yet you want to stick to it!  Or do you agree with me that Mrs Fenn doesn't give a minute by minute account of the night.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 22, 2019, 07:50:50 PM
You don't know how factual Mrs Fenn's statement was yet you want to stick to it!  Or do you agree with me that Mrs Fenn doesn't give a minute by minute account of the night.

im sticking with we dont know how factual mrs fenns statement was
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on April 22, 2019, 08:03:55 PM
im sticking with we dont know how factual mrs fenns statement was
OK.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 22, 2019, 08:57:01 PM
I'm eating a fish finger sandwich with salt. vinegar and HP sauce. Nice.
Gosh, how frightfully common.  I’ve just had sushi followed by a big bowl of Pho.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 23, 2019, 06:48:41 AM
Gosh, how frightfully common.  I’ve just had sushi followed by a big bowl of Pho.

Gosh, how frightfully snobbish!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 23, 2019, 07:05:10 AM
Gosh, how frightfully snobbish!
It was wasn’t it?  I was of course being tongue-in-cheek.  I love a fish finger sarnie me, but it has to be ketchup and tartare, not brown sauce.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 23, 2019, 08:34:21 AM
It was wasn’t it?  I was of course being tongue-in-cheek.  I love a fish finger sarnie me, but it has to be ketchup and tartare, not brown sauce.

It was going to be ketchup but I didn't have any.  8(8-))
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on April 23, 2019, 08:39:34 AM
It was going to be ketchup but I didn't have any.  8(8-))
Fish Finger butties should only really have salt and vinegar on them. I thought that was universal.....
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 23, 2019, 08:56:41 AM
Fish Finger butties should only really have salt and vinegar on them. I thought that was universal.....
Ugh to vinegar, ruins everything.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 23, 2019, 08:59:13 AM
Fish Finger butties should only really have salt and vinegar on them. I thought that was universal.....

It was my first one ever, so I'm not an expert. Are you a northern person? Just wondering necause of the buttie word.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on April 23, 2019, 09:03:09 AM
It was my first one ever, so I'm not an expert. Are you a northern person? Just wondering necause of the buttie word.
Yes, dead give away........
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on April 23, 2019, 09:14:55 AM
Fish Finger butties should only really have salt and vinegar on them. I thought that was universal.....

Nope.  Sandwiches are good.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 23, 2019, 09:15:58 AM
Yes, dead give away........

I'm a Lancastrian and miss proper pork and meat and potato pies still warm from the oven.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 29, 2019, 11:08:46 AM
What's happened to Mr podcast... All very quiet... And having criticised the mccanns for trying to silence anyone who disagrees with him ....he's deleted posts and blocked this who disagree with him on his Twitter... But allaws abusive posts by his supporters...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on April 29, 2019, 12:42:24 PM
I'm a Lancastrian and miss proper pork and meat and potato pies still warm from the oven.

OK.  Obvious question coming up.  Why do you miss them?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 29, 2019, 02:40:19 PM
OK.  Obvious question coming up.  Why do you miss them?

When I first left Lancashire I was horrified when I first bought a pork pie, It was Wals and was dry and tasteless with thick hard pastry. All the ones I've tried since are the same. In Lancashire they are baked daily and are fresh, juicy, full of flavour and spices and have gorgeous pastry.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: kizzy on April 30, 2019, 12:40:16 PM
When I first left Lancashire I was horrified when I first bought a pork pie, It was Wals and was dry and tasteless with thick hard pastry. All the ones I've tried since are the same. In Lancashire they are baked daily and are fresh, juicy, full of flavour and spices and have gorgeous pastry.


Just listend to the podcast

a statement from grime - the dog alerts was correct.

You cant trash what the dogs do [grime]

Rented car was left unguarded or watched no media -  as they had followed mcn to Rome etc.

Yet it clocked up over 11 000 km in 4 months.

The remit was to investigate abduction only - yet after six years not found one zilch of evidence.

SY investigation only has a middle

The big ending apparently will be a German pedophile who lived in the Algarve at the time will be the scapegoat.






Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 30, 2019, 12:43:50 PM

Just listend to the podcast

a statement from grime - the dog alerts was correct.

You cant trash what the dogs do [grime]

Rented car was left unguarded or watched no media -  as they had followed mcn to Rome etc.

Yet it clocked up over 11 000 km in 4 months.

The remit was to investigate abduction only - yet after six years not found one zilch of evidence.

SY investigation only has a middle

The big ending apparently will be a German pedophile who lived in the Algarve at the time will be the scapegoat.

Grime never said the alerts were correct..
What he, said, was the alerts tell te police where to look for evidence... That's, all

I would say, Mark S goes on to misrepresent grime,  by saying the alerts will be confirmed by DNA... That simply isn't true... He makes it sound like grime says, that... I don't think he dies
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on April 30, 2019, 12:47:12 PM

Just listend to the podcast

a statement from grime - the dog alerts was correct.

You cant trash what the dogs do [grime]

Rented car was left unguarded or watched no media -  as they had followed mcn to Rome etc.

Yet it clocked up over 11 000 km in 4 months.

The remit was to investigate abduction only - yet after six years not found one zilch of evidence.

SY investigation only has a middle

The big ending apparently will be a German pedophile who lived in the Algarve at the time will be the scapegoat.



There will need to be some compelling evidence to support that, though given enough time OG may well be able to find some.   8(0(*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on April 30, 2019, 12:50:47 PM

Just listend to the podcast

a statement from grime - the dog alerts was correct.

You cant trash what the dogs do [grime]

Rented car was left unguarded or watched no media -  as they had followed mcn to Rome etc.

Yet it clocked up over 11 000 km in 4 months.

The remit was to investigate abduction only - yet after six years not found one zilch of evidence.

SY investigation only has a middle

The big ending apparently will be a German pedophile who lived in the Algarve at the time will be the scapegoat.


Who is going to make this German paedophile the scapegoat?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: kizzy on April 30, 2019, 12:56:10 PM

Who is going to make this German paedophile the scapegoat?

Well obviously SY - who else would.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on April 30, 2019, 01:03:27 PM
Well obviously SY - who else would.

So he believes NSY will make this German a scapegoat?
They would need to manufacture evidence then?
Quite a serious accusation to make!

They would surely need the cooperation of the Portuguese police to do so?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on April 30, 2019, 01:17:21 PM
Well obviously SY - who else would.

Have you any inkling of whether he is already dead?  That would be about par for the course would it not.   &^^&*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: kizzy on April 30, 2019, 01:22:06 PM
So he believes NSY will make this German a scapegoat?
They would need to manufacture evidence then?
Quite a serious accusation to make!

They would surely need the cooperation of the Portuguese police to do so?


Quite a serious accusation to make!

Well best let the mcns know - not me I didn't say it and couldn't care less E.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on April 30, 2019, 01:23:38 PM
Have you any inkling of whether he is already dead?  That would be about par for the course would it not.   &^^&*


Why?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: kizzy on April 30, 2019, 01:24:17 PM
Have you any inkling of whether he is already dead?  That would be about par for the course would it not.   &^^&*


It would Sil - but he is apparently alive in a German prison.   *%87
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on April 30, 2019, 01:34:23 PM

Quite a serious accusation to make!

Well best let the mcns know - not me I didn't say it and couldn't care less E.

Why would I let the McCann's know
If NSY are gong to make this Geman a scapegoat, then no doubt the MCanns will be told.
It's a serious suggestion for the Mark S. fellow to make.
Are the Portuguese police going to cooperate with NSY.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on April 30, 2019, 01:43:40 PM
Why would I let the McCann's know
If NSY are gong to make this Geman a scapegoat, then no doubt the MCanns will be told.
It's a serious suggestion for the Mark S. fellow to make.
Are the Portuguese police going to cooperate with NSY.

I assume that is a rhetorical question as none on here are likely to know the answer
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on April 30, 2019, 01:45:39 PM

It would Sil - but he is apparently alive in a German prison.   *%87

OK.   *&(+(+
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on April 30, 2019, 01:51:26 PM
I assume that is a rhetorical question as none on here are likely to know the answer


I didn't really expect an answer, so I guess it was.
I would think that if NSY are going to make this German paedophile a scapegoat , then they would need the cooperation of both the Portuguese police and the German police.

Do you agree ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on April 30, 2019, 01:56:43 PM

I didn't really expect an answer, so I guess it was.
I would think that if NSY are going to make this German paedophile a scapegoat , then they would need the cooperation of both the Portuguese police and the German police.

Do you agree ?

Yes & no.

OG would need cooperation of German Justice system to gain access to this prisoner, though he would be under no obligation to agree to be interviewed.

Portuguese involvement would only be required if the prisoner was to be prosecuted.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: kizzy on April 30, 2019, 02:04:58 PM

I didn't really expect an answer, so I guess it was.
I would think that if NSY are going to make this German paedophile a scapegoat , then they would need the cooperation of both the Portuguese police and the German police.

Do you agree ?

This is probably where they will hit a brick wall - Ł12 million and not a thing to show for it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on April 30, 2019, 02:08:34 PM
This is probably where they will hit a brick wall - Ł12 million and not a thing to show for it.

Oh don't say that, they've ticked lots of boxes on their journey to nowhere.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on April 30, 2019, 03:35:28 PM
This is probably where they will hit a brick wall - Ł12 million and not a thing to show for it.

I know.
You would think they would have "fitted up" a scapegoat by now. Lol!!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on April 30, 2019, 03:41:22 PM
I know.
You would think they would have "fitted up" a scapegoat by now. Lol!!

Just another of their failures.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on April 30, 2019, 03:47:23 PM
Just another of their failures.

Well apparently it's going to happen according to the Mark S. fellow.
So never, say never!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 30, 2019, 04:10:18 PM

Just listend to the podcast

a statement from grime - the dog alerts was correct.

You cant trash what the dogs do [grime]

Rented car was left unguarded or watched no media -  as they had followed mcn to Rome etc.

Yet it clocked up over 11 000 km in 4 months.

The remit was to investigate abduction only - yet after six years not found one zilch of evidence.

SY investigation only has a middle

The big ending apparently will be a German pedophile who lived in the Algarve at the time will be the scapegoat.

I've always felt sceptics don't understand the evidence..

What makes you think grime stated the alerts were correct... That's a massive misunderstanding on your behalf
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on April 30, 2019, 06:20:03 PM

Just listend to the podcast

a statement from grime - the dog alerts was correct.

You cant trash what the dogs do [grime]

Rented car was left unguarded or watched no media -  as they had followed mcn to Rome etc.

Yet it clocked up over 11 000 km in 4 months.

The remit was to investigate abduction only - yet after six years not found one zilch of evidence.

SY investigation only has a middle

The big ending apparently will be a German pedophile who lived in the Algarve at the time will be the scapegoat.
In which podcast episode was this German paedophile mentioned  (minutes in too please if it is known)?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on April 30, 2019, 06:31:17 PM
Latest episode, I understand. Time? - no idea
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 30, 2019, 08:12:50 PM
I've always felt sceptics don't understand the evidence..

What makes you think grime stated the alerts were correct... That's a massive misunderstanding on your behalf

Mark S and Martin Grime communicated by email. Grime said it's common for people to say the dogs were wrong because the DNA came back inconclusive. Those saying that are misunderstanding the dogs' work and their alerts
The dogs are trained to search for and locate odour. .Their responses tell the police where to look for evidence.  Their responses were confirmed by the recovery of DNA samples. The dogs' work can't be trashed just because the samples didn't provide conclusive results.The dogs did what they were trained to do.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 30, 2019, 08:19:31 PM
Obviously SY are not going to make a German paedo a scapegoat, they’re busy building a case against their chief suspects the McCanns aren’t they?   @)(++(*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 30, 2019, 08:21:13 PM
Mark S and Martin Grime communicated by email. Grime said it's common for people to say the dogs were wrong because the DNA came back inconclusive. Those saying that are misunderstanding the dogs' work and their alerts
The dogs are trained to search for and locate odour. .Their responses tell the police where to look for evidence.  Their responses were confirmed by the recovery of DNA samples. The dogs' work can't be trashed just because the samples didn't provide conclusive results.The dogs did what they were trained to do.


i think you are quote wrong and mark to a certain extent has muddied the waters...The way i see it...grime said teh dogs tell police where to look for evidence...and are not confirmed without evidence...i think mark then gives his opinion that the dna found corroborates the alerts..it doesnt..

if Gerrys dna is found at a point where the dog alerts ...does this mean gerry is dead...dna does not corroborate the alerts.

I have posted a cite where grime says taht as no remains were found the only alerts that can become corroborated are the CSI...imo...mark has totally misled poeple
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 30, 2019, 08:33:12 PM
Mark S and Martin Grime communicated by email. Grime said it's common for people to say the dogs were wrong because the DNA came back inconclusive. Those saying that are misunderstanding the dogs' work and their alerts
The dogs are trained to search for and locate odour. .Their responses tell the police where to look for evidence.  Their responses were confirmed by the recovery of DNA samples. The dogs' work can't be trashed just because the samples didn't provide conclusive results.The dogs did what they were trained to do.

I think it's quite profound that sceptics have been taken in by marks version of his emails, with Grime
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 30, 2019, 08:39:43 PM

i think you are quote wrong and mark to a certain extent has muddied the waters...The way i see it...grime said teh dogs tell police where to look for evidence...and are not confirmed without evidence...i think mark then gives his opinion that the dna found corroborates the alerts..it doesnt..

if Gerrys dna is found at a point where the dog alerts ...does this mean gerry is dead...dna does not corroborate the alerts.

I have posted a cite where grime says taht as no remains were found the only alerts that can become corroborated are the CSI...imo...mark has totally misled poeple

He said his dogs found evidence so they were correct, imo it was the forensic testing that failed.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on April 30, 2019, 08:43:05 PM
He said his dogs found evidence so they were correct and it was the forensic testing that failed.


That's right. Beyond their capability to interpret the findings.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 30, 2019, 08:44:09 PM
He said his dogs found evidence so they were correct and it was the forensic testing that failed.

Correct in what way ...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 30, 2019, 08:45:50 PM
Are, sceptics now under the illusion that the alerts are corroborated... Because DNA was found
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 30, 2019, 08:48:56 PM
Please, correct me if I'm wrong in any way... What was collected was, cellular material.... Dust contains dead skin... Cellular material... Is it any wonder cellular material was found where the dogs alerted
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 30, 2019, 08:50:05 PM
Correct in what way ...

Evidence was found. Keela alerted to human blood (the ONE item she alerts to!) behind the sofa and in the car.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 30, 2019, 08:51:18 PM
Evidence was found. Keela alerted to human blood (the ONE item she alerts to!) behind the sofa and in the car.

Cellular material was found... No blood identified
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 30, 2019, 08:58:49 PM
Evidence was found. Keela alerted to human blood (the ONE item she alerts to!) behind the sofa and in the car.

Gerrys blood was found in the car
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 30, 2019, 09:09:46 PM
Cellular material was found... No blood identified

CSI dog Keela only alerts to human blood and the police have to follow that up! If SY don't with new advances in forensics they will be ridiculed and rightly so as they have not done their job! Their job is to solve it and everything has to remain open until they achieve that aim.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 30, 2019, 09:11:57 PM
CSI dog Keela only alerts to human blood and the police have to follow that up! If SY don't with new advances in forensics they will be ridiculed and rightly so as they have not done their job! Their job is to solve it and everything has to remain open until they achieve that aim.
The, alerts are not evidence unless corroborated.. They are not corroborated..
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 30, 2019, 09:23:12 PM
The, alerts are not evidence unless corroborated.. They are not corroborated..

That can change and all evidence not just the dogs needs to be corroborated.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 30, 2019, 09:28:48 PM
That can change and all evidence not just the dogs needs to be corroborated.

Let us know when it changes
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 30, 2019, 09:31:44 PM
It won't be me announcing it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 30, 2019, 09:33:53 PM
Are, sceptics now under the illusion that the alerts are corroborated... Because DNA was found

I think you'll find that I have been arguing for some time that Keela's alerts were confirmed. All this podcast has done is to confirm that I was understanding it correctly.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on April 30, 2019, 09:36:40 PM
I think you'll find that I have been arguing for some time that Keela's alerts were confirmed. All this podcast has done is to confirm that I was understanding it correctly.

It is only necessary to read the forensic report to see which alerts were confirmed.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 30, 2019, 09:47:30 PM
Cellular material was found... No blood identified

Just because science was unable to identify the material doesn't mean the dog was wrong. It was trained to detect blood, only blood and only human blood. Your denials are becoming rather silly imo.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on April 30, 2019, 10:31:17 PM
Just because science was unable to identify the material doesn't mean the dog was wrong. It was trained to detect blood, only blood and only human blood. Your denials are becoming rather silly imo.

The denials not only appear daft there is a strange idea that no blood was found. If  human Blood was detected by the trained dogs, why do you deny it? or make it out to be pigs blood?  An innocent explanation could be found, perhaps someone did cut a finger or something. why so defensive in denials? what reason could there be for that I wonder.

The other thing about the cadaver odour- this abductor who got into the apartment could have killed Maddie hid her in the cupboard until it was 'clear' then grabbed her and ran with the corpse. why would anyone want to deny cadaver odour if they believe in an intruder ... makes no sence what so ever!

Too busy looking at the floor to notice an elephant in the room?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on April 30, 2019, 10:47:21 PM
The denials not only appear daft there is a strange idea that no blood was found. If  human Blood was detected by the trained dogs, why do you deny it? or make it out to be pigs blood?  An innocent explanation could be found, perhaps someone did cut a finger or something. why so defensive in denials? what reason could there be for that I wonder.

The other thing about the cadaver odour- this abductor who got into the apartment could have killed Maddie hid her in the cupboard until it was 'clear' then grabbed her and ran with the corpse. why would anyone want to deny cadaver odour if they believe in an intruder ... makes no sence what so ever!

Too busy looking at the floor to notice an elephant in the room?

High tech blinkers for humans

(https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/hArVSBDYvrXEgzIgb2UO56YZkY8=/0x0:852x479/920x613/filters:focal(358x172:494x308):format(webp)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/61805231/panasonic_blinkers_technology_design_dezeen_2364_hero_1_852x479.0.jpg)

https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2018/10/17/17989088/high-tech-blinkers-concentration-open-plan-office-panasonic
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on April 30, 2019, 10:49:28 PM
High tech blinkers for humans

(https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/hArVSBDYvrXEgzIgb2UO56YZkY8=/0x0:852x479/920x613/filters:focal(358x172:494x308):format(webp)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/61805231/panasonic_blinkers_technology_design_dezeen_2364_hero_1_852x479.0.jpg)

https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2018/10/17/17989088/high-tech-blinkers-concentration-open-plan-office-panasonic

I assume both current police investigations are wearing those blinkers. Lol.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on April 30, 2019, 10:55:57 PM
I assume both current police investigations are wearing those blinkers. Lol.

Yeah  with added extras such as head phones which block out all sound.

There are so many theories to be ignored,not suspecting the parents at some point would be foolish. and not suspecting them on the basis that they are doctors is just plain stupid!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on April 30, 2019, 10:59:23 PM
Yeah  with added extras such as head phones which block out all sound.

There are so many theories to be ignored,not suspecting the parents at some point would be foolish. and not suspecting them on the basis that they are doctors is just plain stupid!

Is that the reason they have not as yet been made suspects in their child's disappearance ?
Really because they are both doctors.!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on April 30, 2019, 11:09:05 PM
Is that the reason they have not as yet been made suspects in their child's disappearance ?
Really because they are both doctors.!

Your grasp of English is  very wearing... They were suspects in Portgual of a suspected  crime!  we don't know if they are suspects now as no crime has been established.
It really depends on what theory they are investigating...

Yes, reading the supporters mantra  that is a reason why they shouldn't be suspects, or would harm their child... stupid I know- but hey.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 30, 2019, 11:13:24 PM
Your grasp of English is  very wearing... They were suspects in Portgual of a suspected  crime!  we don't know if they are suspects now as no crime has been established.
It really depends on what theory they are investigating...

Yes, reading the supporters mantra  that is a reason why they shouldn't be suspects, or would harm their child... stupid I know- but hey.
It is stupid because you made it up.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on April 30, 2019, 11:25:16 PM
Your grasp of English is  very wearing... They were suspects in Portgual of a suspected  crime!  we don't know if they are suspects now as no crime has been established.
It really depends on what theory they are investigating...

Yes, reading the supporters mantra  that is a reason why they shouldn't be suspects, or would harm their child... stupid I know- but hey.

Lol.
I can spell wearying correctly.
Unless you really did mean wearing.
They were suspects nearly twelve years ago.

There can only be two crimes to establish.

a) The McCanns are complicit in her disappearance.
b) Madeleine' was abducted.

Which do you believe would be more difficult to investigate?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on April 30, 2019, 11:32:31 PM
He said his dogs found evidence so they were correct and it was the forensic testing that failed.

If the forensic testing failed how can anyone trust the science used to train the dogs in the first place?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on April 30, 2019, 11:37:18 PM
Lol.
I can spell wearying correctly.
Unless you really did mean wearing.
They were suspects nearly twelve years ago.

There can only be two crimes to establish.

a) The McCanns are complicit in her disappearance.
b) Madeleine' was abducted.

Which do you believe would be more difficult to investigate?


Well done on the spelling 8(0(* ... my new rescued horse bit me today! but hey..

I can honestly say both as is the evidence so far. There are lots of theories- some pure crazy and some quite unpleasant, I think all should be investigated. I don't mind being called a troll as this is what I believe and not sticking to the parents version of accounts of that evening.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on April 30, 2019, 11:40:00 PM
If the forensic testing failed how can anyone trust the science used to train the dogs in the first place?


Direct that question to the dog trainers who  trianed  dogs to sniff for Cancer/drugs/explosives...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on April 30, 2019, 11:49:02 PM
A typically intelligent response, keep up the good work.

Oh Gawd  not the  intellegence swipe oh please no not that...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on May 01, 2019, 12:04:08 AM

Direct that question to the dog trainers who  trianed  dogs to sniff for Cancer/drugs/explosives...

There are already cites on this forum of just how many errors drug & explosives dogs make. To the best of my knowledge those mistakes cannot be explained by science so how can you trust the science behind the dogs' training?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 01, 2019, 12:17:47 AM
There are already cites on this forum of just how many errors drug & explosives dogs make. To the best of my knowledge those mistakes cannot be explained by science so how can you trust the science behind the dogs' training?

Perhaps the best of your knowledge isn't up to it Misty :)

Even exact science isn't exact... *%87  always room for error somewhere.

If the trained dogs didn't sniff the explosives- what else would have affected that negative outcome?   Will we find out? No.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 01, 2019, 12:25:52 AM
There are already cites on this forum of just how many errors drug & explosives dogs make. To the best of my knowledge those mistakes cannot be explained by science so how can you trust the science behind the dogs' training?

Are there?   I've been on the forum for several years and I can't remember these.

I've been watching a huge amount of 'true crime' series recently.  What I have learned is that police and customs forces around the world regularly use doggies for all sorts of reasons.

Do you know how to train a doggie to sniff out suspiciously large amounts of cash?  I do!

Do you know how to train a doggie to be be a drug-sniffer doggie? I am still working on the answer to that one. 

 &^^&*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 01, 2019, 12:55:21 AM
Are there?   I've been on the forum for several years and I can't remember these.

I've been watching a huge amount of 'true crime' series recently.  What I have learned is that police and customs forces around the world regularly use doggies for all sorts of reasons.

Do you know how to train a doggie to sniff out suspiciously large amounts of cash?  I do!

Do you know how to train a doggie to be be a drug-sniffer doggie? I am still working on the answer to that one. 

 &^^&*


Our cat is very clever.
However we would have to acquire large amounts of cash and drugs to be able to train him to sniff out either of them.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 01, 2019, 01:06:02 AM

Our cat is very clever.
However we would have to acquire large amounts of cash and drugs to be able to train him to sniff out either of them.

lol Our cat rules the west lounge. absolutely hogs the large sofa. She steals the dog food  and snarls if they go near her box or bowl- she is such a drama cat! She is also slyer than the foxes round here... A near horror story- she climbed into the tumble dryer one cold day as she loves the heat. I just saw her tail as I was closing the door. It was a fight to get her out! lol as of that day the door is ALWAYS closed, but the little minx tries to open it with her paws. Thank goodness for safety locks!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on May 01, 2019, 01:31:22 AM
Are there?   I've been on the forum for several years and I can't remember these.

I've been watching a huge amount of 'true crime' series recently.  What I have learned is that police and customs forces around the world regularly use doggies for all sorts of reasons.

Do you know how to train a doggie to sniff out suspiciously large amounts of cash?  I do!

Do you know how to train a doggie to be be a drug-sniffer doggie? I am still working on the answer to that one. 

 &^^&*

The cites are on here somewhere because I remember seeing them but here are 2 for your perusal.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/bomb-dogs-failed-dozens-tests-10-large-u-s-airports-n648466

https://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2019/02/are-drug-sniffing-dogs-accurate-1.html

I respect what trained dogs can find but wouldn't trust their judgements to determine the fate of my child without tangible corroboration.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 01, 2019, 01:41:10 AM
lol Our cat rules the west lounge. absolutely hogs the large sofa. She steals the dog food  and snarls if they go near her box or bowl- she is such a drama cat! She is also slyer than the foxes round here... A near horror story- she climbed into the tumble dryer one cold day as she loves the heat. I just saw her tail as I was closing the door. It was a fight to get her out! lol as of that day the door is ALWAYS closed, but the little minx tries to open it with her paws. Thank goodness for safety locks!

And my dog has learned how to operate some light switches.

Fortunately, he has not yet learned how to operate any of our door handles on his own.  He simply scratches on the door when he wants to get in or out.

It's a simple message.  "I want to go through.  Open the door."

And yes, he also says "Please" and "Thank you".
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on May 01, 2019, 01:54:18 AM
https://metro.co.uk/2019/04/28/britains-polite-cat-filmed-knocking-owners-door-9329851/
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 01, 2019, 02:02:43 AM
The cites are on here somewhere because I remember seeing them but here are 2 for your perusal.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/bomb-dogs-failed-dozens-tests-10-large-u-s-airports-n648466

https://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2019/02/are-drug-sniffing-dogs-accurate-1.html

I respect what trained dogs can find but wouldn't trust their judgements to determine the fate of my child without tangible corroboration.

OK.  I'm not quite sure what your point is.

My dog went barking mad at his second cadaver a couple of months back.   I thought he was barking at our neighbour's cat.  When I decided to look at what he was doing, it was a cadaver,

Today, we had a replay.   Doggie barking.  Me going to see what was going on.  Today it was my doggie barking loudly at our neighbours' cat.  The cat sat there, completely unmoved.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 01, 2019, 07:21:05 AM
OK.  I'm not quite sure what your point is.

My dog went barking mad at his second cadaver a couple of months back.   I thought he was barking at our neighbour's cat.  When I decided to look at what he was doing, it was a cadaver,

Today, we had a replay.   Doggie barking.  Me going to see what was going on.  Today it was my doggie barking loudly at our neighbours' cat.  The cat sat there, completely unmoved.
You haven’t trained him very well then have you?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 01, 2019, 07:42:20 AM
OK.  I'm not quite sure what your point is.

My dog went barking mad at his second cadaver a couple of months back.   I thought he was barking at our neighbour's cat.  When I decided to look at what he was doing, it was a cadaver,

Today, we had a replay.   Doggie barking.  Me going to see what was going on.  Today it was my doggie barking loudly at our neighbours' cat.  The cat sat there, completely unmoved.

any dog will bark at a dead animal...it doesnt make it a cadaver dog
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 01, 2019, 07:46:45 AM
Just because science was unable to identify the material doesn't mean the dog was wrong. It was trained to detect blood, only blood and only human blood. Your denials are becoming rather silly imo.

i also deny the earth is flat and no doubt flat earthers find my argumnets silly...I place you in the same bracket. Finding a dna sample does not confirm the alert unless it can be identified as blood.

Secondly Grime says the dog can only recognises the blood odour if it has dried in situ...so did a live madeleine bleed in the car ...30 days after her disappearance...there are simply more questions than answers..

this is what Grime said...


Therefore in this particular case, as no human remains were located, the only
alert indications that may become corroborated are those that the CSI dog
indicated by forensic laboratory analysis.


so have the csi alerts been confirmed  by forensic analysis...no....you need to listen to what Grime says...not make it up yourself as you go along..its you that is looking silly

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 01, 2019, 08:12:25 AM

Our cat is very clever.
However we would have to acquire large amounts of cash and drugs to be able to train him to sniff out either of them.

It may be clever but it doesn't have the nose for it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 01, 2019, 08:27:14 AM
It may be clever but it doesn't have the nose for it.
https://www.news.com.au/technology/science/animals/could-cats-replace-searchandrescue-dogs-if-we-can-motivate-them/news-story/57b549f5a2f77399485412c696fdb84b
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 01, 2019, 08:28:23 AM
i also deny the earth is flat and no doubt flat earthers find my argumnets silly...I place you in the same bracket. Finding a dna sample does not confirm the alert unless it can be identified as blood.

Secondly Grime says the dog can only recognises the blood odour if it has dried in situ...so did a live madeleine bleed in the car ...30 days after her disappearance...there are simply more questions than answers..

this is what Grime said...


Therefore in this particular case, as no human remains were located, the only
alert indications that may become corroborated are those that the CSI dog
indicated by forensic laboratory analysis.


so have the csi alerts been confirmed  by forensic analysis...no....you need to listen to what Grime says...not make it up yourself as you go along..its you that is looking silly

The CSI dog's alerts were confirmed in Grime's opinion. It seems you are one of those he referred to as having misunderstood the dog's work and alerts. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 01, 2019, 08:35:03 AM
The CSI dog's alerts were confirmed in Grime's opinion. It seems you are one of those he referred to as having misunderstood the dog's work and alerts.
Do you have a cite?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 01, 2019, 08:39:36 AM
The CSI dog's alerts were confirmed in Grime's opinion. It seems you are one of those he referred to as having misunderstood the dog's work and alerts.

No they were not... Cite required... The only alert confirmed was ti the key... You shoe how little you understand
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 01, 2019, 08:53:19 AM
The CSI dog's alerts were confirmed in Grime's opinion. It seems you are one of those he referred to as having misunderstood the dog's work and alerts.

Grime confirmed exactly what I have said... The, alerts, are not evidence they simply point the investigators where to look for evidence... You have incorrectly claimed the alerts, are circumstantial evidence... Grime has confirmed you are, wrong
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 01, 2019, 09:03:58 AM
Grime confirmed exactly what I have said... The, alerts, are not evidence they simply point the investigators where to look for evidence... You have incorrectly claimed the alerts, are circumstantial evidence... Grime has confirmed you are, wrong
Aren't the concept of finding something and showing someone where to look for something exactly the same thing? It's just one requires assistance from someone / something else.

Blaine, looks for his tennis bag in the trunk of the hire car. He finds it.

Blaine asks Rochelle 'have you seen the tennis bag?' Rochelle directs Blaine to the trunk of the car 'look in there, you big, hairy spanner'. He finds it.

In both circumstances it was there all along, Blaine just needed Rochelle's help finding it in example 2.
You dingbat, Blaine!


Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 01, 2019, 09:17:32 AM
Aren't the concept of finding something and showing someone where to look for something exactly the same thing? It's just one requires assistance from someone / something else.

Blaine, looks for his tennis bag in the trunk of the hire car. He finds it.

Blaine asks Rochelle 'have you seen the tennis bag?' Rochelle directs Blaine to the trunk of the car 'look in there, you big, hairy spanner'. He finds it.

In both circumstances it was there all along, Blaine just needed Rochelle's help finding it in example 2.
You dingbat, Blaine!
Blaine?  Rochelle?  Was that in an episode of Neighbours? 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 01, 2019, 09:21:02 AM
The cites are on here somewhere because I remember seeing them but here are 2 for your perusal.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/bomb-dogs-failed-dozens-tests-10-large-u-s-airports-n648466

https://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2019/02/are-drug-sniffing-dogs-accurate-1.html

I respect what trained dogs can find but wouldn't trust their judgements to determine the fate of my child without tangible corroboration.
I posted this one ... http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10341.msg502452#msg502452

Dogs cannot be guaranteed to be 100% fail safe ... whatever they may be trained to sniff out ...

French police 'lose' explosives at Marseilles airport
Sniffer dogs fail to find explosives during training exercise and gendarmes apparently forget where they hid them

Kim Willsher in Paris
Wed 2 Jul 2014 10.53 BST

French gendarmes in Marseille face being disciplined after reportedly "losing" explosives during a training exercise.

The officers were believed to have hidden the 100g block C-4 plastic explosive – known to experts as a form of Composition C – in the freight section at the city airport for their sniffer dogs to find.

However, the sniffer dogs failed to find the explosives and the gendarmes apparently forgot where they had hidden them.

"There was a surveillance failure," a local official told La Dépęche newspaper. "The explosive was lost." However, he insisted that without a fuse there was no real danger.

C-4, which is similar to semtex, is said to be very stable and able to withstand physical shocks without exploding. During the Vietnam war, American soldiers would sometimes burn small amounts of the explosive to heat their rations.

An inquiry is under way to see if there is a case for official sanctions or legal action against the gendarmes.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/02/french-police-lose-explosives-marseille-airport

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 01, 2019, 09:26:49 AM
Blaine?  Rochelle?  Was that in an episode of Neighbours?
G'day cobba. Blaine's gone and fell down a well, the great gallah, d'ya think we should crack open a tinnie for him? [dangling corks swing pendulously from the brim of the sweat-stained ocker as Brad reaches in to the cooler]
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 01, 2019, 09:32:06 AM
Aren't the concept of finding something and showing someone where to look for something exactly the same thing? It's just one requires assistance from someone / something else.

Blaine, looks for his tennis bag in the trunk of the hire car. He finds it.

Blaine asks Rochelle 'have you seen the tennis bag?' Rochelle directs Blaine to the trunk of the car 'look in there, you big, hairy spanner'. He finds it.

In both circumstances it was there all along, Blaine just needed Rochelle's help finding it in example 2.
You dingbat, Blaine!

No
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 01, 2019, 09:35:35 AM
No
Damn those infernal closed questions. Foiled again.
I'll get you next time Davel, mark my words, mwuhahaha......
Don't you agree?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 01, 2019, 09:37:30 AM
The CSI dog's alerts were confirmed in Grime's opinion. It seems you are one of those he referred to as having misunderstood the dog's work and alerts.

This post requires, a cite... Or be removed
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 01, 2019, 09:41:42 AM
I posted this one ... http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10341.msg502452#msg502452

Dogs cannot be guaranteed to be 100% fail safe ... whatever they may be trained to sniff out ...

French police 'lose' explosives at Marseilles airport
Sniffer dogs fail to find explosives during training exercise and gendarmes apparently forget where they hid them

Kim Willsher in Paris
Wed 2 Jul 2014 10.53 BST

French gendarmes in Marseille face being disciplined after reportedly "losing" explosives during a training exercise.

The officers were believed to have hidden the 100g block C-4 plastic explosive – known to experts as a form of Composition C – in the freight section at the city airport for their sniffer dogs to find.

However, the sniffer dogs failed to find the explosives and the gendarmes apparently forgot where they had hidden them.

"There was a surveillance failure," a local official told La Dépęche newspaper. "The explosive was lost." However, he insisted that without a fuse there was no real danger.

C-4, which is similar to semtex, is said to be very stable and able to withstand physical shocks without exploding. During the Vietnam war, American soldiers would sometimes burn small amounts of the explosive to heat their rations.

An inquiry is under way to see if there is a case for official sanctions or legal action against the gendarmes.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/02/french-police-lose-explosives-marseille-airport

While I don't think dogs find 100% of whatever they are trained to find, that report strikes me as being as ripe as Camembert.

Has anyone considered that C-4 might have been removed from the scene for nefarious reasons?  I would expect it to have a fair street value.

What bothers me is the notion that whichever officer planted the C-4 he cannot remember where he planted it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 01, 2019, 09:43:42 AM
While I don't think dogs find 100% of whatever they are trained to find, that report strikes me as being as ripe as Camembert.

Has anyone considered that C-4 might have been removed from the scene for nefarious reasons?  I would expect it to have a fair street value.

What bothers me is the notion that whichever officer planted the C-4 he cannot remember where he planted it.
Humans can smell C4 Gunit. It has a very distinctive odour and requires masking heavily. It smells like marzipan.
* edit: Having said that, in this instance, as a training exercise, it wouldn't be in raw form.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: kizzy on May 01, 2019, 09:47:16 AM
No they were not... Cite required... The only alert confirmed was ti the key... You shoe how little you understand


from podcat 9 Goncalo


 Mark has been in contact with Martin Grimes through email and he (Martin) is not best pleased that his dogs have been called into question.

 He stated the dogs were correct - because DNA was found (in the car, behind the sofa etc.) then they did what they were trained to do.

You can't say the dogs failed - This podcast has been done recently.


https://omny.fm/shows/maddie/goncalo-amaral
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 01, 2019, 09:53:53 AM

from podcat 9 Goncalo


 Mark has been in contact with Martin Grimes through email and he (Martin) is not best pleased that his dogs have been called into question.

 He stated the dogs were correct - because DNA was found (in the car, behind the sofa etc.) then they did what they were trained to do.

You can't say the dogs failed - This podcast has been done recently.


https://omny.fm/shows/maddie/goncalo-amaral

Who stated that the, alerts, were correct..
DNA does not confirm alerts... There, DNA everywhere
Grime didn't say DNA confirms the alerts MS did
Are you under the illusion the cadaver alerts, are now confirmed... They are, 100 % not
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 01, 2019, 09:54:13 AM

from podcat 9 Goncalo


 Mark has been in contact with Martin Grimes through email and he (Martin) is not best pleased that his dogs have been called into question.

 He stated the dogs were correct - because DNA was found (in the car, behind the sofa etc.) then they did what they were trained to do.

You can't say the dogs failed - This podcast has been done recently.


https://omny.fm/shows/maddie/goncalo-amaral
Does the podcast include a direct quote from Martin Grime?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: kizzy on May 01, 2019, 09:57:54 AM
Does the podcast include a direct quote from Martin Grime?

Listen to it and find out.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 01, 2019, 10:00:32 AM
Listen to it and find out.
No thank you.  I don't listen to propaganda podcasts.  I rely on its fanbase to extract anything of note.  It seems there is nothing of note in the latest. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 01, 2019, 10:17:19 AM
Does the podcast include a direct quote from Martin Grime?

No.. We have MS giving his account if what Grime said...and it's unclear at times whether he's giving Grimes opinion or his own... Plus,  MS has told, us, the dogs have never been wrong in 200 cases.  So we know, for a fact hes not too well informed
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 01, 2019, 10:26:32 AM
While I don't think dogs find 100% of whatever they are trained to find, that report strikes me as being as ripe as Camembert.

Has anyone considered that C-4 might have been removed from the scene for nefarious reasons?  I would expect it to have a fair street value.

What bothers me is the notion that whichever officer planted the C-4 he cannot remember where he planted it.

The fact remains that the dogs could find neither the explosive or residual scent ... nothing is reported about fully trained animals being brought in ... but I bet they were.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 01, 2019, 10:39:56 AM
The fact remains that the dogs could find neither the explosive or residual scent ... nothing is reported about fully trained animals being brought in ... but I bet they were.
Problem is, we have half a story. Who knows what happened, the illustrious gendarmerie may have forgot to place it in the first place. Maybe they took the wrong box of high explosive. Maybe it was disguised as a suitcase so was lost in the middle of 300,000 other suitcases. Maybe it's a hanger full of cargo boxes like on Raiders of the Lost Ark. Maybe there was the overbearing scent of aviation fuel pervading the air. Maybe the dogs briefly got a scent, then lost it. Maybe the handlers searched the wrong hangar. Maybe it was an unfair test and only a 1cm cube of HEC4 was placed in a massive box full of ammonium nitrate compound. Maybe it was a ruse and they were doing a placebo, double blind test on the dogs finding stuff that was never there.
Maybe it's a poor example.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: kizzy on May 01, 2019, 10:40:11 AM
No.. We have MS giving his account if what Grime said...and it's unclear at times whether he's giving Grimes opinion or his own... Plus,  MS has told, us, the dogs have never been wrong in 200 cases.  So we know, for a fact hes not too well informed


No you are wrong - you are biased anyway imo

Grime sent email sooo he put it in writing - it's not up to you to decide what he was saying.

I'm sure if it was MS twisting his words - grime would have done something about it.

Grime trusts his dogs - after all, they are only doing what they are trained to do.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 01, 2019, 10:42:36 AM

No you are wrong - you are biased anyway imo

Grime sent email sooo he put it in writing - it's not up to you to decide what he was saying.

I'm sure if it was MS twisting his words - grime would have done something about it.

Grime trusts his dogs - after all, they are only doing what they are trained to do.

Simple question... Do you believe the cadaver alerts, are corroborated... I say they are 100% not... Do you think I'm wrong
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 01, 2019, 10:59:04 AM
The fact remains that the dogs could find neither the explosive or residual scent ... nothing is reported about fully trained animals being brought in ... but I bet they were.

Perhaps there was no residual scent in a freight station?  As in, the C-4 was placed in a lorry container, which had been driven off-site.

Or it had never been placed in the first instance?

I enjoy watching programmes about all sorts of dog uses.  Australia and NZ use them to screen incoming passengers and mail.

It's amazing how many times a dog alerts.  The passenger then denies any drug use or possession.  The officers then use various tools to screen for drugs.  The results come up positive.  The passenger then changes his story, either to yes he has used drugs recently, or to yes he has been in contact with people using drugs.

What happens thereafter is simple.  If the officer find drugs, the person is charged.  If the officer does not find drugs, the person is free to go.

I have somewhat more confidence in the dogs and the screening tools than I have with someone who lies with as many teeth ....
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 01, 2019, 11:22:25 AM
This post requires, a cite... Or be removed

Podcast 10 Goncalo Amaral 10:48
https://omny.fm/shows/maddie/goncalo-amaral?in_playlist=maddie!podcast
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 01, 2019, 11:27:38 AM
Podcast 10 Goncalo Amaral 10:48
https://omny.fm/shows/maddie/goncalo-amaral?in_playlist=maddie!podcast

You
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 01, 2019, 11:33:04 AM
Podcast 10 Goncalo Amaral 10:48
https://omny.fm/shows/maddie/goncalo-amaral?in_playlist=maddie!podcast

You are, wrong... It's MS  saying the dogs had been correct not grime.. do you think Grime would use teh phrase...you cant just trash the dogs...those are the words of MS
Are you, saying the cadaver alerts, are now confirmed... That's, absolute codswallop

what you show is you have completeley misinterpreted that part of the podcast
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 01, 2019, 11:36:39 AM
Problem is, we have half a story. Who knows what happened, the illustrious gendarmerie may have forgot to place it in the first place. Maybe they took the wrong box of high explosive. Maybe it was disguised as a suitcase so was lost in the middle of 300,000 other suitcases. Maybe it's a hanger full of cargo boxes like on Raiders of the Lost Ark. Maybe there was the overbearing scent of aviation fuel pervading the air. Maybe the dogs briefly got a scent, then lost it. Maybe the handlers searched the wrong hangar. Maybe it was an unfair test and only a 1cm cube of HEC4 was placed in a massive box full of ammonium nitrate compound. Maybe it was a ruse and they were doing a placebo, double blind test on the dogs finding stuff that was never there.
Maybe it's a poor example.
Or maybe the dogs just aren't 100% accurate every time.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 01, 2019, 11:38:16 AM
You

Even after translating your frequent  QWERTY keyboard errors, I cannot make any sense out of this.

What does "You" mean?  In context, please.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 01, 2019, 11:46:52 AM
Even after translating your frequent  QWERTY keyboard errors, I cannot make any sense out of this.

What does "You" mean?  In context, please.
You wouldn't make a very good detective would you?  If you read Davel's next post it's clear his first post to G-Unit is an error. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 01, 2019, 11:54:30 AM
You wouldn't make a very good detective would you?  If you read Davel's next post it's clear his first post to G-Unit is an error.

Is it?  What was Davel's first post and his next post?

By the way, why should I aspire to being a detective?  Somewhat stupid insult is it not?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 01, 2019, 12:11:00 PM
Or maybe the dogs just aren't 100% accurate every time.
Which could also be true about humans. There's a margin of error built in to even the most exacting standards.
To lower the margin of error, you increase the sample size and vice versa. Statisticians work on 95% confidence.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 01, 2019, 12:18:57 PM
You are, wrong... It's MS  saying the dogs had been correct not grime.. do you think Grime would use teh phrase...you cant just trash the dogs...those are the words of MS
Are you, saying the cadaver alerts, are now confirmed... That's, absolute codswallop

what you show is you have completeley misinterpreted that part of the podcast

I'm saying what I've always said. Keela alerted and she was correct that there was something there. Why people don't want to accept that I can't imagine.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 01, 2019, 12:23:45 PM
I'm saying what I've always said. Keela alerted and she was correct that there was something there. Why people don't want to accept that I can't imagine.

but thats not what you claimed today as you well know

so you dont include the cadaver dogs as being confirmed...thats better...
keela alert was confirmed to gerrys blood..

in other places keela alerted..and agreed there was something there...but not confirmed as blood

those are the true facts...lets see if we can stick to them
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 01, 2019, 12:24:19 PM
Is it?  What was Davel's first post and his next post?

By the way, why should I aspire to being a detective?  Somewhat stupid insult is it not?
Touchy!  Are you not an armchair detective with his very own cadaver dog and Ghouls Tours service?  My mistake, must be thinking of someone else.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 01, 2019, 12:29:59 PM
Touchy!  Are you not an armchair detective with his very own cadaver dog and Ghouls Tours service?  My mistake, must be thinking of someone else.


Sounds like an entrepreneurial Tour Operator to me  ?>)()<
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 01, 2019, 12:32:31 PM
Touchy!  Are you not an armchair detective with his very own cadaver dog and Ghouls Tours service?  My mistake, must be thinking of someone else.

Nope.  Can I offer a visitor an armchair?  Ghouls Tours service?  How offensive do you want to get today?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 01, 2019, 12:58:49 PM
Nope.  Can I offer a visitor an armchair?  Ghouls Tours service?  How offensive do you want to get today?
Which bit do you find offensive? 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 01, 2019, 01:08:48 PM
How does one distinguish between a ghoul and a Miss Marple of this parish who goes armed with camera and tape measure ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 01, 2019, 01:17:09 PM
Which bit do you find offensive?

The bits in my reply.

If I call you a dimwit, I would probably get censured.

You appear to have carte blanche to call me a potential paedophile and running ghouls tours.

That is typically called trolling.

 &%%6
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 01, 2019, 01:24:25 PM
The bits in my reply.

If I call you a dimwit, I would probably get censured.

You appear to have carte blanche to call me a potential paedophile and running ghouls tours.

That is typically called trolling.

 &%%6
I have never called you a paedophile, but you do run ghouls tours, fact.  You also have a "cadaver" dog which is ghoulish in itself IMO.   Furthermore you keep a blog with titles like "Madeleine - body decomposition" which is ghoulish and tasteless and completely unnecessary especially if you don't even consider yourself to be an armchair detective. IMO.   If you have a problem kindly report me to the authorities.  Have a nice day!  &^&*%
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 01, 2019, 01:27:35 PM
but thats not what you claimed today as you well know

so you dont include the cadaver dogs as being confirmed...thats better...
keela alert was confirmed to gerrys blood..

in other places keela alerted..and agreed there was something there...but not confirmed as blood

those are the true facts...lets see if we can stick to them

I repeated what was said in the podcast. When I spoke for myself I mentioned only Keela. It's a fact that Keela wouldn't have been put behind the sofa at all if Eddie hadn't alerted there first though.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 01, 2019, 01:45:55 PM
I repeated what was said in the podcasr. When I spoke for myself I mentioned only Keela. It's a fact that Keela wouldn't have been put behind the sofa at all if Eddie hadn't alerted there first though.

The podcast us claiming that the alerts, are confirmed by DNA... It mentions both dogs and I'm glad you agree that's untrue


I accept keela alerted... I accept dna was found... So what do you think I'm denying... That you refer to as silly... Those are the facts


It's also a fact that grime says that the blood must have dried in situ... So unless Madeleine bled in the hire car... It couldn't be her blood that keela was alerting to..

CSI HUMAN BLOOD DETECTING DOG

'Keela' The Crime Scene Investigation (C.S.I.) dog will search for and locate
exclusively human blood. She will locate contaminated weapons, screen
motor vehicles and items of clothing and examine crime scenes for human
blood deposits. She will accurately locate human blood on items that have
been subjected to 'clean up operations' or having been subjected to several
washing machine cycles. In training she has accurately located samples of
blood on property up to thirty-six years old.

In order for the dog to locate the source the blood must have 'dried' in situ.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 01, 2019, 02:13:15 PM
The podcast us claiming that the alerts, are confirmed by DNA... It mentions both dogs and I'm glad you agree that's untrue


I accept keela alerted... I accept dna was found... So what do you think I'm denying... That you refer to as silly... Those are the facts


It's also a fact that grime says that the blood must have dried in situ... So unless Madeleine bled in the hire car... It couldn't be her blood that keela was alerting to..

CSI HUMAN BLOOD DETECTING DOG

'Keela' The Crime Scene Investigation (C.S.I.) dog will search for and locate
exclusively human blood. She will locate contaminated weapons, screen
motor vehicles and items of clothing and examine crime scenes for human
blood deposits. She will accurately locate human blood on items that have
been subjected to 'clean up operations' or having been subjected to several
washing machine cycles. In training she has accurately located samples of
blood on property up to thirty-six years old.

In order for the dog to locate the source the blood must have 'dried' in situ.
Dried in situ. What does that mean? Post mortem? Bled from a live body in that place? Bled from a corpse in that place? Dripped from a moving, live person, then dried in that place?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 01, 2019, 02:21:21 PM
Dried in situ. What does that mean? Post mortem? Bled from a live body in that place? Bled from a corpse in that place? Dripped from a moving, live person, then dried in that place?

it means... fresh blood that has dried in that place ...corpses dont bleed post mortem
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 01, 2019, 02:34:42 PM
it means... fresh blood that has dried in that place ...corpses dont bleed post mortem
They do. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15075683 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15075683)
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 01, 2019, 02:38:14 PM
They do. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15075683 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15075683)

i should have made it clearer...your study is up to 72 hours post mortem...and it doesnt tell us if there was any bleeding at 72 hours.....in this case it was 30 days....all the blood in the body would have clotted by then.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 01, 2019, 02:52:38 PM
i should have made it clearer...your study is up to 72 hours post mortem...and it doesnt tell us if there was any bleeding at 72 hours.....in this case it was 30 days....all the blood in the body would have clotted by then.
Given Amaral's explanation of this phenomena in his theory, I wonder what the effect is on a corpse that is 'refrigerated' for up to 30 days as opposed to 'frozen'. Is it conceivable, Davel, as a scientist, that trace amounts of blood would seep from a corpse who's decomposition / hematological coagulation was arrested / stunted / slowed?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 01, 2019, 03:13:16 PM
Given Amaral's explanation of this phenomena in his theory, I wonder what the effect is on a corpse that is 'refrigerated' for up to 30 days as opposed to 'frozen'. Is it conceivable, Davel, as a scientist, that trace amounts of blood would seep from a corpse who's decomposition / hematological coagulation was arrested / stunted / slowed?

Any chance of revisiting Amaral' explanation of 'this phenomena' in his theory for me.  I'm afraid I don't seem to have heard it before?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 01, 2019, 03:27:46 PM
Given Amaral's explanation of this phenomena in his theory, I wonder what the effect is on a corpse that is 'refrigerated' for up to 30 days as opposed to 'frozen'. Is it conceivable, Davel, as a scientist, that trace amounts of blood would seep from a corpse who's decomposition / hematological coagulation was arrested / stunted / slowed?

The study you quoted may well involve more elderly people... Many who take blood thinning drugs that delay clotting... Even then bleeding only happened when the body was cut open... How long would it take Gerry to find a fridge... It's, all a but silly...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 01, 2019, 03:35:24 PM
Given Amaral's explanation of this phenomena in his theory, I wonder what the effect is on a corpse that is 'refrigerated' for up to 30 days as opposed to 'frozen'. Is it conceivable, Davel, as a scientist, that trace amounts of blood would seep from a corpse who's decomposition / hematological coagulation was arrested / stunted / slowed?
Why wonder about it?  Is it conceivable that Madeleine's corpse was refrigerated for 23 days and then moved by a high profile individual into a high profile rental car in a high profile holiday resort crawling with tourists, media, the occasional police person and all manner of ghoul seekers?  I know it's technically not impossible but we haven't even begun to explore where this mythical fridge might have been housed.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 01, 2019, 03:35:45 PM
The study you quoted may well involve more elderly people... Many who take blood thinning drugs that delay clotting... Even then bleeding only happened when the body was cut open... How long would it take Gerry to find a fridge... It's, all a but silly...
No, I never mentioned Gerry. I never mentioned geriatric, blood thinning medication; I asked about the plausibility of concept. No external factors. No context apart from refrigeration.
My initial link refuted your initial statement that corpses don't bleed - they do. It's an experiment which required blood letting to test blood flow.
Following on, looking for proof of concept, my question was:
As a scientist, is it conceivable that trace amounts of blood would seep from a corpse who's decomposition / hematological coagulation was arrested / stunted / slowed?
I'm not interested in Gerry's frantic search for a decent capacity fridge. I'm not interested in some poor, old dear being prescribed Warfarin for heart disease then sadly passing away. Just the concept please.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 01, 2019, 03:39:10 PM
Why wonder about it?  Is it conceivable that Madeleine's corpse was refrigerated for 23 days and then moved by a high profile individual into a high profile rental car in a high profile holiday resort crawling with tourists, media, the occasional police person and all manner of ghoul seekers?  I know it's technically not impossible but we haven't even begun to explore where this mythical fridge might have been housed.
Not interested in the context. I'm asking the resident scientist for an opinion on the concept, mano a mano. It's important because we can blow the Amaral theory out of the water with one fell swoop - so let's do it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 01, 2019, 03:41:01 PM
Not interested in the context. I'm asking the resident scientist for an opinion on the concept, mano a mano. It's important because we can blow the Amaral theory out of the water with one fell swoop - so let's do it.
Hmmm...I detect the merest whiff of a sneer in your reply so I don't think whatever Davel says is going to stick with you.  Just a hunch.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 01, 2019, 03:43:30 PM
No, I never mentioned Gerry. I never mentioned geriatric, blood thinning medication; I asked about the plausibility of concept. No external factors. No context apart from refrigeration.
My initial link refuted your initial statement that corpses don't bleed - they do. It's an experiment which required blood letting to test blood flow.
Following on, looking for proof of concept, my question was:
As a scientist, is it conceivable that trace amounts of blood would seep from a corpse who's decomposition / hematological coagulation was arrested / stunted / slowed?
I'm not interested in Gerry's frantic search for a decent capacity fridge. I'm not interested in some poor, old dear being prescribed Warfarin for heart disease then sadly passing away. Just the concept please.
Does blood that is inside a corpse remain fresh for 23 days in a fridge? 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 01, 2019, 03:45:35 PM
Not interested in the context. I'm asking the resident scientist for an opinion on the concept, mano a mano. It's important because we can blow the Amaral theory out of the water with one fell swoop - so let's do it.

I've already blown his theory out... How did Maddie die between 8.30 and 10....rolling off the sofa... Banging her head and dying... Not possible
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 01, 2019, 03:53:44 PM
Does blood that is inside a corpse remain fresh for 23 days in a fridge?
Just the concept. Let's start with whether it is possible for 'blood' to be in a state whereby it can seep from a corpse post mortem, under prolonged refrigerated conditions. If it's impossible, show me, and I'll dismiss this 'evidence' immediately. I'll may even proselytise (Brietta) = because it's the basis of his whole case. He seems very sure of his facts for a man who probably knows very little about this niche subject of post mortem hematological coagulation upon induced temperature lowering. Just flew that kite to the world, even wrote a goddam book based on it. The bolas on the guy.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 01, 2019, 03:55:36 PM
I've already blown his theory out... How did Maddie die between 8.30 and 10....rolling off the sofa... Banging her head and dying... Not possible
Nah, let's focus on this facet of the theory. Just the blood thing. We can do the head thing later.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 01, 2019, 03:56:20 PM
Just the concept. Let's start with whether it is possible for 'blood' to be in a state whereby it can seep from a corpse post mortem, under prolonged refrigerated conditions. If it's impossible, show me, and I'll dismiss this 'evidence' immediately. I'll may even proselytise (Brietta) = because it's the basis of his whole case. He seems very sure of his facts for a man who probably knows very little about this niche subject of post mortem hematological coagulation upon induced temperature lowering. Just flew that kite to the world, even wrote a goddam book based on it. The bolas on the guy.
TBH, it's not my specialist subject but if I ever have a need to keep a corpse in a fridge for 23 days I'll be sure to let you know.  Meanwhile, we do have an expert on dead bodies on this forum (seems to know alot about mortuaries and the like) but he or she is keeping quite a low profile these days.  Perhaps they will chip in with their two pence worth presently. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 01, 2019, 03:58:08 PM
Just the concept. Let's start with whether it is possible for 'blood' to be in a state whereby it can seep from a corpse post mortem, under prolonged refrigerated conditions. If it's impossible, show me, and I'll dismiss this 'evidence' immediately. I'll may even proselytise (Brietta) = because it's the basis of his whole case. He seems very sure of his facts for a man who probably knows very little about this niche subject of post mortem hematological coagulation upon induced temperature lowering. Just flew that kite to the world, even wrote a goddam book based on it. The bolas on the guy.
Blood doesn't seep from a corpse... As your link showed... The blood deep inside had to be accessed
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 01, 2019, 04:01:11 PM
Nah, let's focus on this facet of the theory. Just the blood thing. We can do the head thing later.

You can if you want... Why should we talk about any bleeding frozen cirose when there is zero chance of if it existing..
I prefer to discuss the evidence... When blood has been identified it might be worth discussing how it got there
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 01, 2019, 04:04:01 PM
TBH, it's not my specialist subject but if I ever have a need to keep a corpse in a fridge for 23 days I'll be sure to let you know.  Meanwhile, we do have an expert on dead bodies on this forum (seems to know alot about mortuaries and the like) but he or she is keeping quite a low profile these days.  Perhaps they will chip in with their two pence worth presently.
I'm genuinely interested. It is important (but not in real life and all that), it is a cornerstone that should really be scrutinised and either confirmed or dismissed.
And if you do need to keep a corpse in a fridge for 23 days make sure you put plenty of 50p's in the meter.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 01, 2019, 04:04:55 PM
You can if you want... Why should we talk about any bleeding frozen cirose when there is zero chance of if it existing..
I prefer to discuss the evidence... When blood has been identified it might be worth discussing how it got there
Ah well, we'll leave it there then. Can't say I'm not disappointed.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 01, 2019, 04:14:23 PM
I'm genuinely interested. It is important (but not in real life and all that), it is a cornerstone that should really be scrutinised and either confirmed or dismissed.
And if you do need to keep a corpse in a fridge for 23 days make sure you put plenty of 50p's in the meter.
I'm not a scientist but I can't imagine any reason why a refrigerated corpse would start bleeding after twenty three days when removed from the fridge, unless maybe it had a bloody wound.  Would falling off a sofa and banging your head (to death) cause a bloody wound?  Possible but highly unlikely IMO, as is his entire theory.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 01, 2019, 04:27:15 PM
I'm genuinely interested. It is important (but not in real life and all that), it is a cornerstone that should really be scrutinised and either confirmed or dismissed.
And if you do need to keep a corpse in a fridge for 23 days make sure you put plenty of 50p's in the meter.

I still don't know the meat and bones of Amaral's frozen thesis.  What is it and how does he think it was achieved?

I'll start you off ...
There needs to be a freezer ... right?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 01, 2019, 04:36:20 PM
I'm not a scientist but I can't imagine any reason why a refrigerated corpse would start bleeding after twenty three days when removed from the fridge, unless maybe it had a bloody wound.  Would falling off a sofa and banging your head (to death) cause a bloody wound?  Possible but highly unlikely IMO, as is his entire theory.
Granted. Again, on the face of it, it seems like a right, old stretch of plausibility.
He's arrived at the only logical, albeit unlikely, conclusion, but won't have been alone in the process. It would have been ruminated upon by committee, then released.
Hence why I asked how was he so cock sure that it would stand up? Experienced as he was, he can't have known the intricacies of DNA transference (as Davel has pointed out at length), the relative decomposition (or otherwise) of a refrigerated corpse and the feasibility of logistics thereof, or the vagaries of the concept of 'reliability' of the dogs. Yet he steadfastly told the world his theory in great detail. Then wrote a book. Then lost almost everything. Then continued to propound the same theory irrespective. I know he's much maligned by supporters and why not, he's no role model, but he doesn't appear to be three parts mad to me.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 01, 2019, 04:37:42 PM
Chest freezer would be ideal.
Under-worksurface  fridge with shelves removed and turned up to max might be adequate
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 01, 2019, 04:38:46 PM
I still don't know the meat and bones of Amaral's frozen thesis.  What is it and how does he think it was achieved?

I'll start you off ...
There needs to be a freezer ... right?
Or a fridge. Hence why I asked whether simply arresting decomposition and coagulation is necessary, as opposed to deep freeze. So yes.....number one.....we're gonna a decent sized fridge / freezer.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 01, 2019, 04:41:42 PM
Chest freezer would be ideal.
Under-worksurface  fridge with shelves removed and turned up to max might be adequate
Where? Logistics of transporting a dead child to a secluded fridge where you are confident it wouldn't be discovered. Good luck with that on holiday, in a rented apartment and knowing very little about the place. And the police are going to be crawling around this place like a tramp on chips.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 01, 2019, 04:44:22 PM
Where? Logistics of transporting a dead child to a secluded fridge where you are confident it wouldn't be discovered. Good luck with that on holiday, in a rented apartment and knowing very little about the place. And the police are going to be crawling around this place like a tramp on chips.

Yes, would be useful if you had a friend who had such an appliance, say in a handy garage, within carrying distance
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 01, 2019, 05:38:26 PM
I have never called you a paedophile, but you do run ghouls tours, fact.  You also have a "cadaver" dog which is ghoulish in itself IMO.   Furthermore you keep a blog with titles like "Madeleine - body decomposition" which is ghoulish and tasteless and completely unnecessary especially if you don't even consider yourself to be an armchair detective. IMO.   If you have a problem kindly report me to the authorities.  Have a nice day!  &^&*%

Fact.  I have never run a ghouls tour.  That's a complete figment of your imagination, and is obviously designed to be offensive.

Fact.  My blog differentiates between topics related to Madeleine and those which are not.  Those related to Madeleine would start with Madeleine in the title.  Again you are being offensive.

Keep it up and I will indeed report you to the authorities.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 01, 2019, 05:50:57 PM
Does blood that is inside a corpse remain fresh for 23 days in a fridge?

Try cutting something like a chop that has been in your fridge for 23 days.

Of course it bleeds.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 01, 2019, 07:13:54 PM
Yes, would be useful if you had a friend who had such an appliance, say in a handy garage, within carrying distance

Should have been easy enough to locate ... I seem to remember a forum discussion on garages in Luz where we were reliably informed they were as scarce as hens teeth
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 01, 2019, 07:21:01 PM
Perhaps not a garage - merely a hypothetical musing
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 01, 2019, 07:34:56 PM
Should have been easy enough to locate ... I seem to remember a forum discussion on garages in Luz where we were reliably informed they were as scarce as hens teeth

There are garages opposite block 5, block 6.

We live in a converted garage, more popularly called an underbuild.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 01, 2019, 07:36:53 PM
Perhaps not a garage - merely a hypothetical musing

So you turn up on your friends step... Can I put a body in your freezer for a few weeks..
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 01, 2019, 07:37:49 PM
So you turn up on your friends step... Can I put a body in your freezer for a few weeks..
A few weeks? Are you kidding? What about my fish fingers?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 01, 2019, 07:44:04 PM
A few weeks? Are you kidding? What about my fish fingers?

Precisely
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 01, 2019, 08:26:14 PM
it means... fresh blood that has dried in that place ...corpses dont bleed post mortem
That is not right and I know from years of working in a slaughter house.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 01, 2019, 08:30:02 PM
i should have made it clearer...your study is up to 72 hours post mortem...and it doesnt tell us if there was any bleeding at 72 hours.....in this case it was 30 days....all the blood in the body would have clotted by then.
What happens if a body is frozen immediately after death and thawed 30 days later?  There are situations (scenarios) where we wouldn't know what effect it would have on Keela's ability to detect blood and blood stained body fluids.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 01, 2019, 08:35:18 PM
The study you quoted may well involve more elderly people... Many who take blood thinning drugs that delay clotting... Even then bleeding only happened when the body was cut open... How long would it take Gerry to find a fridge... It's, all a but silly...
Who said it was Gerry?   Who says the body if frozen was Madeleine?  All that the dogs indicate is that there is a possible cadaver with bleeding of some degree. No victim names are mentioned and no perpetrators are identified.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 01, 2019, 08:38:51 PM
Why wonder about it?  Is it conceivable that Madeleine's corpse was refrigerated for 23 days and then moved by a high profile individual into a high profile rental car in a high profile holiday resort crawling with tourists, media, the occasional police person and all manner of ghoul seekers?  I know it's technically not impossible but we haven't even begun to explore where this mythical fridge might have been housed.
There is a walk-in freezer/chiller mentioned in the PJ files.  It is at the Tapas Restaurant.  What better place?  Right at the site where the child goes missing.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 01, 2019, 08:40:35 PM
Does blood that is inside a corpse remain fresh for 23 days in a fridge?
Meat stays fresh, so why not the blood?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 01, 2019, 08:45:25 PM
I've already blown his theory out... How did Maddie die between 8.30 and 10....rolling off the sofa... Banging her head and dying... Not possible
Forget about a specific person.  It could be anyone, injured anywhere, shifted by anyone to places unknown.  (But in that sequence it seems likely the person taking a victim into the apartment also is involved in the removal to the refrigeration point.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 01, 2019, 08:48:41 PM
Blood doesn't seep from a corpse... As your link showed... The blood deep inside had to be accessed
But if there were injuries causing dead.  Often blood will come out from the lungs via the mouth ears or nose after death.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 01, 2019, 08:51:35 PM
I'm not a scientist but I can't imagine any reason why a refrigerated corpse would start bleeding after twenty three days when removed from the fridge, unless maybe it had a bloody wound.  Would falling off a sofa and banging your head (to death) cause a bloody wound?  Possible but highly unlikely IMO, as is his entire theory.
What about a hit and run car accident?  Internal bleeding etc.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 01, 2019, 08:55:10 PM
I still don't know the meat and bones of Amaral's frozen thesis.  What is it and how does he think it was achieved?

I'll start you off ...
There needs to be a freezer ... right?
There was one at the Tapas Restaurant.  Where did she go missing?  Even if the body that Amaral theorises about wasn't Madeleine it is still close to where Madeleine went missing.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 01, 2019, 08:59:30 PM
Where? Logistics of transporting a dead child to a secluded fridge where you are confident it wouldn't be discovered. Good luck with that on holiday, in a rented apartment and knowing very little about the place. And the police are going to be crawling around this place like a tramp on chips.
For the cadaver odour to have developed in the apartment, IMO the body must have been hidden in the apartment and thereafter removed after the PJ left in the early hours of the morning.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 01, 2019, 09:01:10 PM
Fact.  I have never run a ghouls tour.  That's a complete figment of your imagination, and is obviously designed to be offensive.

Fact.  My blog differentiates between topics related to Madeleine and those which are not.  Those related to Madeleine would start with Madeleine in the title.  Again you are being offensive.

Keep it up and I will indeed report you to the authorities.
Who is going to define a ghoul tour?

No easy to define.

There is one site specifically doing ghoul tours: https://www.tripadvisor.co.nz/ShowUserReviews-g186525-d213565-r136830887-Mercat_Tours-Edinburgh_Scotland.html

 "Ghost and ghoul tour Edinburgh
Review of Mercat Tours
Reviewed 11 August 2012
We enjoyed this 80 minute guided walk round some of Edinburgh's most haunted sites. Our guide Aisling, was very interesting, informative and humorous who kept everyone in the group involved. The website does warn you to wear sensible shoes as the tour through the vaults takes you over some very uneven flooring in near darkness. Despite this, we would recommend this tour for families unless the children are nervous or afraid of dark enclosed places.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 01, 2019, 09:19:40 PM
Meat is injected with a host of chemicals to preserve.. Ehnce colour.. Si to compare meat to a corpse is erroneous.. I've just cut a pork chop... No blood but a pink liquid derived from what the pork had been injected with.
Blood clots... End of story..
If the corpse was frozen immediately this would affect clotting but three weeks is a long time and I don't see how Gerry could acces a freezer immediately... Blood may come out if mouth and nose but this blood would clot too... Perhaps ill take some blood from myself and put it straight in the freezer... See what happens
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 01, 2019, 09:31:48 PM
order by 
up vote
19
down vote
accepted
To start with, the red, or dark, juice from red meat is not, in fact, blood, which is a common misconception. Most blood is drained from red meat when it is butchered. It is, rather, a protein (myoglobin) and a lot of water
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 01, 2019, 09:36:14 PM
order by 
up vote
19
down vote
accepted
To start with, the red, or dark, juice from red meat is not, in fact, blood, which is a common misconception. Most blood is drained from red meat when it is butchered. It is, rather, a protein (myoglobin) and a lot of water
All the comma's in the right place. Hmmm.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 01, 2019, 09:36:54 PM
All the comma's in the right place. Hmmm.

It's a cite.. You should have worked that out... There no blood in sils pork chops
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 01, 2019, 09:41:28 PM
It's a cite.. You should have worked that out... There no blood in sils pork chops
That's a relief.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 01, 2019, 09:43:15 PM
That's a relief.

I've learnt something myself too
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 01, 2019, 10:03:14 PM
It's a cite.. You should have worked that out... There no blood in sils pork chops
You are joking aren't you.  No RBCs remaining in the capillaries and venules after slaughter?     (venules a very small vein, especially one collecting blood from the capillaries.)
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 01, 2019, 10:04:09 PM
I've learnt something myself too
Learnt misinformation.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 01, 2019, 10:08:02 PM
Try cutting something like a chop that has been in your fridge for 23 days.

Of course it bleeds.
I wouldn’t know, I haven’t had a chop in my fridge for over 30 years.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 01, 2019, 10:10:35 PM
I wouldn’t know, I haven’t had a chop in my fridge for over 30 years.
Well cut a carrot and see if it bleeds!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 01, 2019, 10:11:24 PM
Fact.  I have never run a ghouls tour.  That's a complete figment of your imagination, and is obviously designed to be offensive.

Fact.  My blog differentiates between topics related to Madeleine and those which are not.  Those related to Madeleine would start with Madeleine in the title.  Again you are being offensive.

Keep it up and I will indeed report you to the authorities.
It’s not really a figment of my imagination is it?  I seem to recall reading something about a tour guide in PdL taking people around “Maddieville”, was that not you?
I don’t think it’s being offensive to point out the distasteful subject matter and headings of your blog, I’m stating an opinion.  I thought you were an advocate of free speech, but report me to the authoritirs for voicing an opinion if you must.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 01, 2019, 10:12:49 PM
There is a walk-in freezer/chiller mentioned in the PJ files.  It is at the Tapas Restaurant.  What better place?  Right at the site where the child goes missing.
@)(++(*. you do make me laugh.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 01, 2019, 10:14:18 PM
What about a hit and run car accident?  Internal bleeding etc.
That wasn’t part of Amaral’s theory was it?  When has anyone ever put a hit and run victim into a freezer?  Very strange behaviour.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 01, 2019, 10:16:07 PM
Well cut a carrot and see if it bleeds!
I don’t know about that, they scream when you toss them in boiling water though.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 01, 2019, 10:25:49 PM
Who is going to define a ghoul tour?

No easy to define.

There is one site specifically doing ghoul tours: https://www.tripadvisor.co.nz/ShowUserReviews-g186525-d213565-r136830887-Mercat_Tours-Edinburgh_Scotland.html

 "Ghost and ghoul tour Edinburgh
Review of Mercat Tours
Reviewed 11 August 2012
We enjoyed this 80 minute guided walk round some of Edinburgh's most haunted sites. Our guide Aisling, was very interesting, informative and humorous who kept everyone in the group involved. The website does warn you to wear sensible shoes as the tour through the vaults takes you over some very uneven flooring in near darkness. Despite this, we would recommend this tour for families unless the children are nervous or afraid of dark enclosed places.

There are many places doing gouls tours.  The last I heard of was where Ted Bundy committed his crimes.  There is a tour each Saturday evening, and the shop owner sells souvenir T-shirts emblazoned with Ted Bundy.

That's but one reason why I consider VS highly offensive in this respect.

If you need more, I will happily supply them.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 01, 2019, 10:32:45 PM
It’s not really a figment of my imagination is it?  I seem to recall reading something about a tour guide in PdL taking people around “Maddieville”, was that not you?
I don’t think it’s being offensive to point out the distasteful subject matter and headings of your blog, I’m stating an opinion.  I thought you were an advocate of free speech, but report me to the authoritirs for voicing an opinion if you must.

If it was me, so what?

Luz has become dominated by the McCanns.  Time to wake up and smell the coffee.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 01, 2019, 10:39:28 PM
You are joking aren't you.  No RBCs remaining in the capillaries and venules after slaughter?     (venules a very small vein, especially one collecting blood from the capillaries.)

      exsanguination ... typically the slaughtered animal is hung and drained of blood
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 01, 2019, 10:42:20 PM
 “If you can visit Luz, please get in touch with me, because I would like you to show you the reality.

“I think of this as the Luz Challenge. Our version of Mission Impossible.”

“You have to come up with a way in which the McCanns, for whatever reason, ­disposed of Madeleine’s body, and the body was not found in searches.”
“Gonçalo Amaral struggled, and in my opinion failed, to come up with an explanation.

“He had something like 25 years of experience policing Portugal and the Algarve, and he failed to come up with a solution to a one-word question. How?

“How do you dispose of a child’s body when all you have is foot power and no experience of Luz.

“Would you like to see if you can overcome the Luz Challenge?”

——————-

Seriously, imagine this was your disappeared child that someone was using as a challenge for visitors to come to the site of her disappearance, be given a guided tour of all the hot spots in “Maddieville” and then come up with explanations of how you dumped her body?  And I’m allegedly the one being offensive?? 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 01, 2019, 11:24:56 PM
@)(++(*. you do make me laugh.
The simplest would be if she walked in there herself and got frozen, then not noticed for at least 20 days.  But that wouldn't account for the cadaver dog alerts in the apartment.

"Butcher says a frozen sausage 'saved his life' after he used it to beat down the door of his walk-in freezer when the door slammed shut"  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5265083/UK-butcher-says-frozen-sausage-saved-life-freezer.html 
Accidental deaths do happen.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 01, 2019, 11:40:01 PM
That wasn’t part of Amaral’s theory was it?  When has anyone ever put a hit and run victim into a freezer?  Very strange behaviour.
It would be a matter of searching the internet.  It would seem easy as it gives the perpetrator time to consider how to finally dispose of the body.  Un-chilled a body soon becomes odorous and very difficult to hide.  The smell is often the giveaway.
Undertakers regularly chill the bodies of the deceased.  I recall touching my father and he felt frozen even though there were no obvious icicles.

"Croatian woman’s body found in freezer, 18 years after she went missing"  Obviously it was a good model freezer to keep running that long. https://www.msn.com/en-xl/europe/top-stories/croatian-womans-body-found-in-freezer-18-years-after-she-went-missing/ar-BBTIcKX
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 01, 2019, 11:41:06 PM
I don’t know about that, they scream when you toss them in boiling water though.
You don't boil them alive do you!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 01, 2019, 11:42:29 PM
There are many places doing gouls tours.  The last I heard of was where Ted Bundy committed his crimes.  There is a tour each Saturday evening, and the shop owner sells souvenir T-shirts emblazoned with Ted Bundy.

That's but one reason why I consider VS highly offensive in this respect.

If you need more, I will happily supply them.
A lot of posts are borderline lately. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 01, 2019, 11:44:31 PM
      exsanguination ... typically the slaughtered animal is hung and drained of blood
From memory at least 10% of the blood remains in the body even after proper bleeding.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 01, 2019, 11:58:53 PM
That wasn’t part of Amaral’s theory was it?  When has anyone ever put a hit and run victim into a freezer?  Very strange behaviour.
I think Amaral was thinking along the right track, but I'm not sure if he ever considered the child substitution theory.  Where one family loses a child and takes another as a replacement, or some variation of that.  All authors I've read (Danny Collins  and the other one which I forget  .... and Swan, Anthony Summers and Robbyn Swan) both books mention it but don't explore it either. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 02, 2019, 12:05:46 AM
“If you can visit Luz, please get in touch with me, because I would like you to show you the reality.

“I think of this as the Luz Challenge. Our version of Mission Impossible.”

“You have to come up with a way in which the McCanns, for whatever reason, ­disposed of Madeleine’s body, and the body was not found in searches.”
“Gonçalo Amaral struggled, and in my opinion failed, to come up with an explanation.

“He had something like 25 years of experience policing Portugal and the Algarve, and he failed to come up with a solution to a one-word question. How?

“How do you dispose of a child’s body when all you have is foot power and no experience of Luz.

“Would you like to see if you can overcome the Luz Challenge?”

——————-

Seriously, imagine this was your disappeared child that someone was using as a challenge for visitors to come to the site of her disappearance, be given a guided tour of all the hot spots in “Maddieville” and then come up with explanations of how you dumped her body?  And I’m allegedly the one being offensive??

If you don't understand the English in this, it's not my problem.

Yes, you have been offensive.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 02, 2019, 12:09:28 AM
If you don't understand the English in this, it's not my problem.

Yes, you have been offensive.
Try not to make it my problem.  Everyone calm down please.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on May 02, 2019, 12:39:27 AM
If you don't understand the English in this, it's not my problem.

Yes, you have been offensive.

Have you ever looked at the type of elevator used in Block 5?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 02, 2019, 01:46:50 AM
Have you ever looked at the type of elevator used in Block 5?

Yup.  Whats your point?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on May 02, 2019, 01:49:58 AM
Yup.  Whats your point?

How modern is it? Is there an internal folding door?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 02, 2019, 02:01:58 AM
How modern is it? Is there an internal folding door?
Sliding.  Press the floor button and it shuts automatically.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 02, 2019, 08:04:49 AM
If you don't understand the English in this, it's not my problem.

Yes, you have been offensive.
In Your Opinion.

I understand the English perfectly, thanks.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 02, 2019, 10:23:05 AM
Mark Saunokonoko was able to speak with Jim Ganble in the latest podcast.

Mark S asks Jim Gamble if Operation Grange has to be considered a failure. Gamble said "I don't think it has been a failure; let's see what comes from it all. There will be evidence collected that at some time, at some stage in the future may be able to help hold someone to account for this. Has it been a failure? Who's to say that now?"

Mark S said that Gamble's report to the Home Office had stressed that it was best practice in missing child cases to investigate family and friends first. Why had Operation Grange not appeared to have done that? Gamble said; " Operation Grnge is different. Operation Grabge is coming back after the fact. It's when the incident takes place that it's'best practice to capitalise on the golden hours. Operation Grange will have had the opportunity to reflect on all the work that was done at the time and during the following years."

Mark S then asked why OG appeared to be focussed only on abduction. Ganble said: "I think they are well equipped to make the right judgements about where their starting point is. I'm sure that they will have looked at every scrap of evidence, every report that was written so if they have chosen to focus in a particular area that there will be a rationale for that. I have no doubt."

Mark S's final question was where was the evidence that an abduction had taken place? Ganble replied; "When the aparment was checked Madeleine wasn't there, so either she had left herself or she had been abducted by siomeone else; she didn't simply disappear. The evidence (inaudible) leaves you with those two hypotheses. As I said I think time will tell. I really hope it does and whoever they are if this is an abduction case that they're identified and held to accoount. If it is a case that she went missing and inadvertently was hurt or worse and wasn't found I hope that comes to light as well"

Ganble clearly has faith in Operation Grange although he doesn't sound all that hopeful that they will find a solution soon.

Is the fact that Madeleine wasn't there evidence of abduction? Although Ganble uses it in his reply he, unlike A C Rowley acknowledges two possibilities, not just abduction. So it isn't just evidence of abduction, is it?

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 02, 2019, 10:59:05 AM
Mark Saunokonoko was able to speak with Jim Ganble in the latest podcast.

Mark S asks Jim Gamble if Operation Grange has to be considered a failure. Gamble said "I don't think it has been a failure; let's see what comes from it all. There will be evidence collected that at some time, at some stage in the future may be able to help hold someone to account for this. Has it been a failure? Who's to say that now?"

Mark S said that Gamble's report to the Home Office had stressed that it was best practice in missing child cases to investigate family and friends first. Why had Operation Grange not appeared to have done that? Gamble said; " Operation Grnge is different. Operation Grabge is coming back after the fact. It's when the incident takes place that it's'best practice to capitalise on the golden hours. Operation Grange will have had the opportunity to reflect on all the work that was done at the time and during the following years."

Mark S then asked why OG appeared to be focussed only on abduction. Ganble said: "I think they are well equipped to make the right judgements about where their starting point is. I'm sure that they will have looked at every scrap of evidence, every report that was written so if they have chosen to focus in a particular area that there will be a rationale for that. I have no doubt."

Mark S's final question was where was the evidence that an abduction had taken place? Ganble replied; "When the aparment was checked Madeleine wasn't there, so either she had left herself or she had been abducted by siomeone else; she didn't simply disappear. The evidence (inaudible) leaves you with those two hypotheses. As I said I think time will tell. I really hope it does and whoever they are if this is an abduction case that they're identified and held to accoount. If it is a case that she went missing and inadvertently was hurt or worse and wasn't found I hope that comes to light as well"

Ganble clearly has faith in Operation Grange although he doesn't sound all that hopeful that they will find a solution soon.

Is the fact that Madeleine wasn't there evidence of abduction? Although Ganble uses it in his reply he, unlike A C Rowley acknowledges two possibilities, not just abduction. So it isn't just evidence of abduction, is it?

both Gamble and Rowley have used teh same logic I have...if the parents are ruled out there are basically two options...abduction or woke and wandered...the  fact that maddie is missing is evidence that supports both of these options...and the fact that gamble and rowley are saying this is further evidence the parents have been ruled out..

the fact that gamble says taht woke and wandered is a possibility shows grange are not limited to the remit
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 02, 2019, 11:23:39 AM
both Gamble and Rowley have used teh same logic I have...if the parents are ruled out there are basically two options...abduction or woke and wandered...the  fact that maddie is missing is evidence that supports both of these options...and the fact that gamble and rowley are saying this is further evidence the parents have been ruled out

According to Gamble's report that wasn''t done right at the beginning of the Portuguese investigation. According to the Supreme Court it wasn't done during the Portuguese investigation. According to Rowley it was done by the Portiguese investigation. There is no evidence to support Rowley's statement in my opinion.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 02, 2019, 11:38:59 AM
According to Gamble's report that wasn''t done right at the beginning of the Portuguese investigation. According to the Supreme Court it wasn't done during the Portuguese investigation. According to Rowley it was done by the Portiguese investigation. There is no evidence to support Rowley's statement in my opinion.
  Gamble also said

Mark S then asked why OG appeared to be focussed only on abduction. Ganble said: "I think they are well equipped to make the right judgements about where their starting point is. I'm sure that they will have looked at every scrap of evidence, every report that was written so if they have chosen to focus in a particular area that there will be a rationale for that. I have no doubt."


so he is saying that he thinks grange will have looked at every scrap of evidence...as i beleive they have...before coming to this conclusion..

And ther conclusion is the parents are not involved....I cannot see a reasonable scenario taht they are..teh idea of death and disposal in 90 minutes is ..imo..impossible...children do not die immediately from head injuries as ameral has suggested...even CMOMM agree and have come up with the bizarre idea maddie died days previously....




Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 02, 2019, 11:48:49 AM
How modern is it? Is there an internal folding door?

Me culpa.  I realised as I slept I had described the elevator in St James, the complex next to the OG dig.

I have never been inside an elevator in block 5 or block 4, so I cannot answer your question.

Block 6 does not have elevators, as per Neil Berry's statement.  That I have checked, because it sounded wrong to me, but it is correct.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 02, 2019, 12:27:01 PM
  Gamble also said

Mark S then asked why OG appeared to be focussed only on abduction. Ganble said: "I think they are well equipped to make the right judgements about where their starting point is. I'm sure that they will have looked at every scrap of evidence, every report that was written so if they have chosen to focus in a particular area that there will be a rationale for that. I have no doubt."


so he is saying that he thinks grange will have looked at every scrap of evidence...as i beleive they have...before coming to this conclusion..

And ther conclusion is the parents are not involved....I cannot see a reasonable scenario taht they are..teh idea of death and disposal in 90 minutes is ..imo..impossible...children do not die immediately from head injuries as ameral has suggested...even CMOMM agree and have come up with the bizarre idea maddie died days previously....

So, like you, Gamble believes that Operation Grange examined all the evidence before making decisions. Their remit was released around the end of 2011 and it said they were investigating an abduction. It wasn't until 2015 that Grange announced that "the vast majority of the work reviewing all the material collated since May 2007 has now been completed", so they clearly hadn't examined everything before deciding what they were going to investigate.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/oct/28/met-reduces-officers-madeleine-mccann-case-29-to-four
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 02, 2019, 12:39:46 PM
It would be a matter of searching the internet.  It would seem easy as it gives the perpetrator time to consider how to finally dispose of the body.  Un-chilled a body soon becomes odorous and very difficult to hide.  The smell is often the giveaway.
Undertakers regularly chill the bodies of the deceased.  I recall touching my father and he felt frozen even though there were no obvious icicles.

"Croatian woman’s body found in freezer, 18 years after she went missing"  Obviously it was a good model freezer to keep running that long. https://www.msn.com/en-xl/europe/top-stories/croatian-womans-body-found-in-freezer-18-years-after-she-went-missing/ar-BBTIcKX

We've got a frozen body or I should say bodies in a freezer case here in good old London Town.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6984533/Man-34-appears-court-bodies-freezer-London.html

Man, 34, appears in court charged with preventing the lawful burial of two women found in a freezer in east London 'after the electricity was cut off when the bills had not been paid'
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 02, 2019, 12:40:14 PM
Me culpa.  I realised as I slept I had described the elevator in St James, the complex next to the OG dig.

I have never been inside an elevator in block 5 or block 4, so I cannot answer your question.

Block 6 does not have elevators, as per Neil Berry's statement.  That I have checked, because it sounded wrong to me, but it is correct.
Can anyone just go there and use the elevator?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 02, 2019, 12:49:29 PM
We've got a frozen body or I should say bodies in a freezer case here in good old London Town.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6984533/Man-34-appears-court-bodies-freezer-London.html

Man, 34, appears in court charged with preventing the lawful burial of two women found in a freezer in east London 'after the electricity was cut off when the bills had not been paid'
Putting them in a freezer is rather just the first step to getting rid of the bodies.  Two of them in the one freezer!  They might have just died of an overdose of drugs and the person who put them in the freezer didn't need the problem of getting rid of the bodies. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 02, 2019, 12:51:02 PM
I've listened to the latest podcast and got nothing from it.  I might have to listen to it again and not dose off next time.
DNA 17  - used in the USA for a long time now.

Conversation with Goncalo???  It doesn't sound like Goncalo to me.

DNA samples from the Renault.  11,000 km clocked up by Sept.

Martin Grime -

Duarte Leve - Multiple people had access to that car.

Not watched by PJ or journalists 24/7.

Women's file missing.

Cameron and Wright statements.

Mark Rowley - "However she left the apartment she has been abducted"

Martin Grime - don't blame the dogs.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 02, 2019, 01:00:11 PM
Putting them in a freezer is rather just the first step to getting rid of the bodies.  Two of them in the one freezer!  They might have just died of an overdose of drugs and the person who put them in the freezer didn't need the problem of getting rid of the bodies.

It didn't seem a problem until the leccy wasn't paid it seems.
Still its getting off topic isn't it unles MS mentioned it in his podcast.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 02, 2019, 01:07:45 PM
Can anyone just go there and use the elevator?

Yes.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 02, 2019, 01:08:09 PM
Can anyone just go there and use the elevator?

Yes.  Blocks are not locked.  Your front door is your security.

Have a think about all of the people who were in block 5 without 'permission'.  Pamela Fenn was not in the Ocean Club.  The laundry guy who claimed to have seen a Neil Berry look-a-like.  The cleaners got keys to the apartments, but nothing more than that.

Side note.  On the balcony outside Mrs Fenn's flat, there exists a large water-rounded rock with the word Fenn painted on it.  I presume this means her home was passed on to her family upon her death, but I have not checked.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on May 02, 2019, 01:27:48 PM
Me culpa.  I realised as I slept I had described the elevator in St James, the complex next to the OG dig.

I have never been inside an elevator in block 5 or block 4, so I cannot answer your question.

Block 6 does not have elevators, as per Neil Berry's statement.  That I have checked, because it sounded wrong to me, but it is correct.

OK. Thanks anyway. I have always harboured a bit of concern about disposal of a wrapped body down an elevator shaft.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 02, 2019, 02:00:09 PM
According to Gamble's report that wasn''t done right at the beginning of the Portuguese investigation. According to the Supreme Court it wasn't done during the Portuguese investigation. According to Rowley it was done by the Portiguese investigation. There is no evidence to support Rowley's statement in my opinion.

The archiving report summarised the evidence against the mccanns... No indicationof any crime... PDC has said there's no evidence against the mccanns... Si working hypothesis  fir SY... Rowley said they had looked, at everything... So working hypothesis... Parents not involved..

You want to believe Grange haven't looked at the parents. I think they have... Thats it
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 02, 2019, 02:02:23 PM
So, like you, Gamble believes that Operation Grange examined all the evidence before making decisions. Their remit was released around the end of 2011 and it said they were investigating an abduction. It wasn't until 2015 that Grange announced that "the vast majority of the work reviewing all the material collated since May 2007 has now been completed", so they clearly hadn't examined everything before deciding what they were going to investigate.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/oct/28/met-reduces-officers-madeleine-mccann-case-29-to-four

All the evidence against the parents was looked at...IMO... Not necessarily  all the evidence in the files that didntvrelate to the parents

Do you believe  there is evidence that implicates the parents... If so... Where is it
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 02, 2019, 02:42:11 PM
The archiving report summarised the evidence against the mccanns... No indicationof any crime... PDC has said there's no evidence against the mccanns... Si working hypothesis  fir SY... Rowley said they had looked, at everything... So working hypothesis... Parents not involved..

You want to believe Grange haven't looked at the parents. I think they have... Thats it

Finding no evidence that someone has committed a crime doesn't clear them. Rowley said the Portuguese dealt with the question of parental involvement. They didn't.

No matter what you believe you can't prove you're right.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 02, 2019, 02:50:07 PM
Finding no evidence that someone has committed a crime doesn't clear them. Rowley said the Portuguese dealt with the question of parental involvement. They didn't.

No matter what you believe you can't prove you're right.

I dont really need to prove I'm right... I'm not attempting to.. Im 99.99999999999999% sure I'm right... So that's good enough for me...

Il ask you again... Has Barry George been cleared... If someone has been found not guilty... Have they been cleared... As far as, I'm concerned... And SY... And the PJ... The mccanns aren't suspects and there's no evidence against then.. I think it's about time you thought about what that means and move on...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 02, 2019, 03:20:24 PM
I dont really need to prove I'm right... I'm not attempting to.. Im 99.99999999999999% sure I'm right... So that's good enough for me...

Il ask you again... Has Barry George been cleared... If someone has been found not guilty... Have they been cleared... As far as, I'm concerned... And SY... And the PJ... The mccanns aren't suspects and there's no evidence against then.. I think it's about time you thought about what that means and move on...

You keep bringing George into it,according to the ministry of justice he failed to prove his innocence,go figure.

The MoJ said only people who proved their innocence could get compensation.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31578422

Lord Justice Beatson and Mr Justice Irwin had rejected his claim that the justice secretary unfairly and unlawfully decided he was "not innocent enough to be compensated".


https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/jul/09/barry-george-loses-fight-jill-dando-compensation
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 02, 2019, 03:41:09 PM
You keep bringing George into it,according to the ministry of justice he failed to prove his innocence,go figure.

The MoJ said only people who proved their innocence could get compensation.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31578422

Lord Justice Beatson and Mr Justice Irwin had rejected his claim that the justice secretary unfairly and unlawfully decided he was "not innocent enough to be compensated".


https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/jul/09/barry-george-loses-fight-jill-dando-compensation

The question was... Has he been cleared... Perhaps if somone answerred it I wouldnt have to keep bringing but up
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 02, 2019, 03:45:20 PM
The question was... Has he been cleared... Perhaps if somone answerred it I wouldnt have to keep bringing but up

The MOJ are the ones to ask.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 02, 2019, 03:51:43 PM
The MOJ are the ones to ask.

It shows what a stupid idea the Portuguese had that the mccanns hadn't proved their innocence.. Two trials and George still hasn't proved his
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 02, 2019, 04:05:23 PM
Delete.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 02, 2019, 05:52:21 PM
I dont really need to prove I'm right... I'm not attempting to.. Im 99.99999999999999% sure I'm right... So that's good enough for me...

Il ask you again... Has Barry George been cleared... If someone has been found not guilty... Have they been cleared... As far as, I'm concerned... And SY... And the PJ... The mccanns aren't suspects and there's no evidence against then.. I think it's about time you thought about what that means and move on...

The fact remains you can't prove Grange looked at the parents - you are speculating when you say they have. Judging by the evidence they agreed to take on a case to investigate only what the former prime suspects said happened.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: lordpookles on May 02, 2019, 06:32:11 PM
The fact remains you can't prove Grange looked at the parents - you are speculating when you say they have. Judging by the evidence they agreed to take on a case to investigate only what the former prime suspects said happened.

On that point wasn’t there a documentary - maybe called searching for Madeleine where they confirmed that the current grange investigation did not investigate the parents. A former copper confirmed that was the case as he was originally in the mix to lead and turned it down because of that reason.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 02, 2019, 06:37:43 PM
On that point wasn’t there a documentary - maybe called searching for Madeleine where they confirmed that the current grange investigation did not investigate the parents. A former copper confirmed that was the case as he was originally in the mix to lead and turned it down because of that reason.

Sory but that's basically all wrong...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 02, 2019, 06:44:20 PM
On that point wasn’t there a documentary - maybe called searching for Madeleine where they confirmed that the current grange investigation did not investigate the parents. A former copper confirmed that was the case as he was originally in the mix to lead and turned it down because of that reason.

Probably that is one for the sceptic belief thread ... I think it is the wrong speculation, but there you are. 

Is there any independent confirmation that 'a former copper' was in the mix to lead and turned it down?  Apart from his claim ... I don't think you will find any.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: lordpookles on May 02, 2019, 06:52:56 PM
Probably that is one for the sceptic belief thread ... I think it is the wrong speculation, but there you are. 

Is there any independent confirmation that 'a former copper' was in the mix to lead and turned it down?  Apart from his claim ... I don't think you will find any.

I haven’t followed this case for a long time - not sure there is anything to follow? But I saw a documentary the other week and the policeman was on the show who confirmed this. I’m surprised the folk here don’t know the doc I mean as there appeared to be some new info, but not much and they also went over the SY remit. I’ll try and find the doc and post it when I do.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 02, 2019, 06:58:58 PM
I haven’t followed this case for a long time - not sure there is anything to follow? But I saw a documentary the other week and the policeman was on the show who confirmed this. I’m surprised the folk here don’t know the doc I mean as there appeared to be some new info, but not much and they also went over the SY remit. I’ll try and find the doc and post it when I do.

I know the doc you mean....sutton was never offerred the job...so he never turned it down......he wsnt told he couldnt look at the mccanns...you have to be careful believing everything you see..particularly on other sites
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 02, 2019, 06:59:47 PM
On that point wasn’t there a documentary - maybe called searching for Madeleine where they confirmed that the current grange investigation did not investigate the parents. A former copper confirmed that was the case as he was originally in the mix to lead and turned it down because of that reason.

and no one has confirmed the parents havent been investigated
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 02, 2019, 07:02:57 PM
The fact remains you can't prove Grange looked at the parents - you are speculating when you say they have. Judging by the evidence they agreed to take on a case to investigate only what the former prime suspects said happened.

and you are speculating that they didnt...from what I have seen they looked at all the evidence and ruled out the parents...rightly so imo...I cant prove ben needham didnt die in an accident and his grandmother covered it up....im sure she didnt...but i cant prove it...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 02, 2019, 07:16:16 PM
I haven’t followed this case for a long time - not sure there is anything to follow? But I saw a documentary the other week and the policeman was on the show who confirmed this. I’m surprised the folk here don’t know the doc I mean as there appeared to be some new info, but not much and they also went over the SY remit. I’ll try and find the doc and post it when I do.

Please don't worry about it ... the policeman's claim is uncorroborated by any but himself and as 'evidence' for his claim probably rates with a Sun headline in the opinion of those who require confirmation of all claims.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 02, 2019, 07:20:26 PM
and you are speculating that they didnt...from what I have seen they looked at all the evidence and ruled out the parents...rightly so imo...I cant prove ben needham didnt die in an accident and his grandmother covered it up....im sure she didnt...but i cant prove it...

I think it farcical to imagine that Kate and Gerry haven't had in depth meetings with Operation Grange ... I think the chagrin arises because they haven't been seen to be wearing orange jump suits at any time in the process.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 02, 2019, 07:20:56 PM
Probably that is one for the sceptic belief thread ... I think it is the wrong speculation, but there you are. 

Is there any independent confirmation that 'a former copper' was in the mix to lead and turned it down?  Apart from his claim ... I don't think you will find any.


There's no independent confirmation that MBM was put to bed on 3rd May or that she was in that bed at 21:05. but you believe it. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 02, 2019, 07:34:42 PM
and you are speculating that they didnt...from what I have seen they looked at all the evidence and ruled out the parents...rightly so imo...I cant prove ben needham didnt die in an accident and his grandmother covered it up....im sure she didnt...but i cant prove it...

Rowley said the question of parental involvement was dealt with by the Portuguese. Why don't you believe him?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 02, 2019, 07:39:55 PM
On that point wasn’t there a documentary - maybe called searching for Madeleine where they confirmed that the current grange investigation did not investigate the parents. A former copper confirmed that was the case as he was originally in the mix to lead and turned it down because of that reason.
Don't worry.

I see you have already been labelled as a sceptic, and denigated by supporters.  That's how it works around here.

There are those who take more measured views.  You just need to work out who issues put-downs and who is willing to help.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 02, 2019, 07:43:28 PM
Don't worry.

I see you have already been labelled as a sceptic, and denigated by supporters.  That's how it works around here.

There are those who take more measured views.  You just need to work out who issues put-downs and who is willing to help.

cite for already denigrated by supporters...do you actually read the post before spouting such absolute rubbish
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 02, 2019, 07:45:32 PM
Rowley said the question of parental involvement was dealt with by the Portuguese. Why don't you believe him?

I do....they did deal with it...and came to the conclusion...no evidence of any crime....and grange looked at all teh material and agreed
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 02, 2019, 07:48:43 PM
Don't worry.

I see you have already been labelled as a sceptic, and denigated by supporters.  That's how it works around here.

There are those who take more measured views.  You just need to work out who issues put-downs and who is willing to help.


I'm assuming you are labelling supporters as those who denigrate and issue "put- downs" and those who are not supporters take more measured views and are willing to help?
What a delightful partisan view. Lol.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 02, 2019, 07:56:17 PM
I do....they did deal with it...and came to the conclusion...no evidence of any crime....and grange looked at all teh material and agreed

Twelve years on and yet despite no evidence of the parents involvement ....some do have difficulty with that conclusion!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 02, 2019, 08:00:22 PM
Twelve years on and yet despite no evidence of the parents involvement ....some do have difficulty with that conclusion!


12 yrs on,some have difficulty with no evidence of an abduction,Grange despite their looking at an abduction have never said they have evidence of one,its areason its not been solved, lack of evidence what ever scenario is your prefered choice.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 02, 2019, 08:01:43 PM
cite for already denigrated by supporters...do you actually read the post before spouting such absolute rubbish

Yes.

Just read back through the thread.

It's not difficult.   *&^^&
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on May 02, 2019, 08:02:36 PM
Twelve years on and yet despite no evidence of the parents involvement ....some do have difficulty with that conclusion!

IMO many have difficulty with that conclusion because they are not prepared to look beyond the parents for culpability. Even the podcasts steer the listeners in that direction.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 02, 2019, 08:07:02 PM

12 yrs on,some have difficulty with no evidence of an abduction,Grange despite their looking at an abduction have never said they have evidence of one,its areason its not been solved, lack of evidence what ever scenario is your prefered choice.

Who are the "some" who have difficulty with no evidence of an abduction?

Do you believe that Grange have evidence of parental involvement?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 02, 2019, 08:08:03 PM
Yes.

Just read back through the thread.

It's not difficult.   *&^^&

I haven't seen any denigration so my accusation of you spouting rubbish stands... Perhaps you could cite an example... I've certainly treated LP with respect and understanding... And looking at some other posts has showed sympathy and understanding towards the mccanns..
You really have got this totally wrong
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 02, 2019, 08:09:10 PM

12 yrs on,some have difficulty with no evidence of an abduction,Grange despite their looking at an abduction have never said they have evidence of one,its areason its not been solved, lack of evidence what ever scenario is your prefered choice.

Redwood said.. Based on the evidence... He agrees with me
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 02, 2019, 08:10:09 PM
I haven't seen any denigration so my accusation of you spouting rubbish stands... Perhaps you could cite an example... I've certainly treated LP with respect and understanding... And looking at some other posts has showed sympathy and understanding towards the mccanns..
You really have got this totally wrong

Don't think so.   *&^^&
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 02, 2019, 08:11:49 PM
Don't think so.   *&^^&

You are spouting absolute rubbish... Cite one post where I have denigrated Pookles.  You are making an untrue claim... Basically a lie
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 02, 2019, 08:12:00 PM
Redwood said.. Based on the evidence... He agrees with me

Based on evidence Redwood dug up the countryside with out result,so I'm not sure he is the best refernce point to align one self to.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 02, 2019, 08:13:47 PM
Based on evidence Redwood dug up the countryside with out result,so I'm not sure he is the best refernce point to align one self to.

You said Grange have never said they have evidence of abduction... They have... You are, quite wrong
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 02, 2019, 08:15:18 PM
IMO many have difficulty with that conclusion because they are not prepared to look beyond the parents for culpability. Even the podcasts steer the listeners in that direction.

Theres no difficulty with the conclusion that by looking beyond the parents it has brought any thing close to resemblance of closure to the case.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 02, 2019, 08:17:14 PM
Don't worry.

I see you have already been labelled as a sceptic, and denigated by supporters.  That's how it works around here.

There are those who take more measured views.  You just need to work out who issues put-downs and who is willing to help.

Just to clear things up... I have never labelled Pookles, a sceptic and haven't made a denigrating post towards them... Anyone who says I have is a liar
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 02, 2019, 08:17:34 PM
You said Grange have never said they have evidence of abduction... They have... You are, quite wrong

Maddie is missing, her parents claim she was abducted.

That's about the sum amount of abduction evidence Grange have.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 02, 2019, 08:19:13 PM
Maddie is missing, her parents claim she was abducted.

That's about the sum amount of abduction evidence Grange have.

I would say there's a lot more... But I think I'm pretty good at looking at evidence  and sorting the Wheat from the chaff
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 02, 2019, 08:21:47 PM
You are spouting absolute rubbish... Cite one post where I have denigrated Pookles.  You are making an untrue claim... Basically a lie

Read back on the thread.

I never claimed that you, personally, had denigrated Pookies.  Did I?

I have a couple of excellent donkey photos. One vaguely relates to MBM.   Would you like to see it?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 02, 2019, 08:24:42 PM
Read back on the thread.

I never claimed that you, personally, had denigrated Pookies.  Did I?

I have a couple of excellent donkey photos. One vaguely relates to MBM.   Would you like to see it?

I'm just making it clear... You baseless accusations do not apply to me... And you've failed to provide a cite of any denigration towards pookles.. More rubbish from you... You are, welcome to prove me wrong if you can... But you cant


There have only bee two replies to pookles this evening.. Myself and Brietta... As I said you are posting absolute  tosh
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 02, 2019, 08:25:38 PM
I haven't seen any denigration so my accusation of you spouting rubbish stands... Perhaps you could cite an example... I've certainly treated LP with respect and understanding... And looking at some other posts has showed sympathy and understanding towards the mccanns..
You really have got this totally wrong

Very wrong!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 02, 2019, 08:26:37 PM
Read back on the thread.

I never claimed that you, personally, had denigrated Pookies.  Did I?

I have a couple of excellent donkey photos. One vaguely relates to MBM.   Would you like to see it?

So who has denigrated LP?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 02, 2019, 08:27:19 PM
Redwood said.. Based on the evidence... He agrees with me

DCI Redwood.

"We have conducted a forensic analysis of the timeline & there is clearly opportunity there for Madeleine McCann to have been removed from that apartment alive & it is our belief, as experienced investigators, on the evidence, that umm, that y'know that, that is a criminal act, y'know that has been, y'know, undertaken by, by a stranger..."

https://youtu.be/-R_RjWWCKEA?t=171

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 02, 2019, 08:27:35 PM
Redwood said one reading of the dissapearence is that it had all the hallmarks of a pre planned abduction,not that they had evidence of such.
The people who matter namely Pedro do Carmo,in answer to the question do you accept the girl was abducted said,we don't know what happened and have to be prepared for other scenarios.Clearly not of a closed mind when investigating a childs dissapearence.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 02, 2019, 08:28:32 PM
I would say there's a lot more... But I think I'm pretty good at looking at evidence  and sorting the Wheat from the chaff

You ....'would'..... say there is a lot more....but you can't, because there isn't.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 02, 2019, 08:29:17 PM
You ....'would'..... say there is a lot more....but you can't, because there isn't.

I already have done on several occasions
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 02, 2019, 08:29:41 PM
I'm just making it clear... You baseless accusations do not apply to me... And you've failed to provide a cite of any denigration towards pookles.. More rubbish from you... You are, welcome to prove me wrong if you can... But you cant

Don't worry.  I don't think the moderators will be removing anything I have posted this evening.  Such is life.

 &^^&*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 02, 2019, 08:29:55 PM
Who are the "some" who have difficulty with no evidence of an abduction?

Do you believe that Grange have evidence of parental involvement?

I don't believe Grange have evidence of anything,its not their case.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 02, 2019, 08:30:50 PM
Redwood said one reading of the dissapearence is that it had all the hallmarks of a pre planned abduction,not that they had evidence of such.
The people who matter namely Pedro do Carmo,in answer to the question do you accept the girl was abducted said,we don't know what happened and have to be prepared for other scenarios.Clearly not of a closed mind when investigating a childs dissapearence.

Have a look at the post above yours... Based on the evidence... Redwoods exact words
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 02, 2019, 08:33:09 PM
Don't worry.  I don't think the moderators will be removing anything I have posted this evening.  Such is life.

 &^^&*

Nor anything I've posted... I don't like lies being told about me and I'm glad to see you accept your post does not apply to me... In truth I can't see who your baseless, accusations apply to
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 02, 2019, 08:34:11 PM
Have a look at the post above yours... Based on the evidence... Redwoods exact words

Then went on to dig up the countryside and then interviewed some arguidos and found his evidence wasn't evidence at all.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 02, 2019, 08:34:50 PM
I already have done on several occasions

Let's make a list of all the abduction evidence then.....

1) Maddie is missing.

2) Her parents claim she was abducted.

3) Some people claim to have seen her.

4) Strange men were seen lurking near 5a.

5) Some local men owned mobile phones.

6) Paedophiles exist.

Can you think of anymore?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 02, 2019, 08:35:53 PM
Have a look at the post above yours... Based on the evidence... Redwoods exact words

It was his 'belief', on the evidence....umm umm y'know...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 02, 2019, 08:36:42 PM
Let's make a list of all the abduction evidence then.....

1) Maddie is missing.

2) Her parents claim she was abducted.

3) Some people claim to have seen her.

4) Strange men were seen lurking near 5a.

5) Some local men owned mobile phones.

6) Paedophiles exist.

Can you think of anymore?

I already have done...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 02, 2019, 08:40:08 PM
I already have done...

Yes, it was so convincing that I've forgotten all of it.

List it again for us all, if you don't mind, shouldn't take long.....
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 02, 2019, 08:40:25 PM
It was his 'belief', on the evidence....umm umm y'know...

Do you think that it is no longer the belief held by OG?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 02, 2019, 08:41:42 PM
Do you think that it is no longer the belief held by OG?

We can't be sure.

Apparently they considered woke & wandered....
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 02, 2019, 08:43:06 PM
We can't be sure.

Apparently they considered woke & wandered....

But not as yet parental involvement!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 02, 2019, 08:44:44 PM
But not as yet parental involvement!

That doesn't mean they didn't do it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 02, 2019, 08:46:01 PM
We can't be sure.

Apparently they considered woke & wandered....

After doing a forensic analysis of the phone calls?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 02, 2019, 08:54:04 PM
Yes, it was so convincing that I've forgotten all of it.

List it again for us all, if you don't mind, shouldn't take long.....

I do mind, and can't be bothered ..I don't care what you think... It's of no importance to me
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 02, 2019, 08:59:11 PM
I do mind, and can't be bothered ..I don't care what you think... It's of no importance to me

If you didn't care you wouldn't have replied, but you did, so I win.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 02, 2019, 09:32:00 PM

Jim Gamble considers woke & wandered as a possibility. I find this surprising, coming from him, as the McCanns are adamant woke & wandered is impossible....

“Either someone took her, or in fact she wandered out that night and came to harm and that her body has never been discovered.”

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/774399/madeleine-mccann-disappearance-2019-dna-evidence-missing-parents-news-police-jim-gamble

His knowledge of the case is clearly lacking imo
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 02, 2019, 09:46:36 PM
Jim Gamble considers woke & wandered as a possibility. I find this surprising, coming from him, as the McCanns are adamant woke & wandered is impossible....

“Either someone took her, or in fact she wandered out that night and came to harm and that her body has never been discovered.”

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/774399/madeleine-mccann-disappearance-2019-dna-evidence-missing-parents-news-police-jim-gamble

His knowledge of the case is clearly lacking imo

Perhaps you should inform him of your knowledge of the case.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 02, 2019, 09:53:05 PM

Jim has overlooked the open window/shutters for starters, plus the fact that Maddie couldn't have left via the patio doors, unless she closed everything behind her on her way out.  *&^^&

He doesn't know what he's talking about, it's no wonder he believes the McCanns are innocent. He doesn't have a grasp of the basic evidence.


Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 02, 2019, 09:55:55 PM
Jim has overlooked the open window/shutters for starters, plus the fact that Maddie couldn't have left via the patio doors, unless she closed everything behind her on her way out.  *&^^&

He doesn't know what he's talking about, it's no wonder he believes the McCanns are innocent. He doesn't have a grasp of the basic evidence.


But don't you think NSY have a grasp of the basic evidence?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 02, 2019, 09:57:16 PM

But don't you think NSY have a grasp of the basic evidence?

Not if they consider woke & wandered, no.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 02, 2019, 09:59:42 PM
Not if they consider woke & wandered, no.

You don't consider that a possibility?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 02, 2019, 10:02:51 PM
You don't consider that a possibility?

Of course not.

Firstly, How does woke & wandered account for that open window/shutters?

(2) There was a child gate at the rear exit.

& (C) I don't believe Maddie was alive anyway.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 02, 2019, 10:06:07 PM
Oh dear, not your finest day.    *&^^&
8)><( what an offensive post  8)><(
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 02, 2019, 10:08:11 PM
Of course not.

Firstly, How does woke & wandered account for that open window/shutters?

(2) There was a child gate at the rear exit.

& (C) I don't believe Maddie was alive anyway.
Erm...I thought you didn’t believe the window and shutters were open in the first place... ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 02, 2019, 10:13:38 PM
Erm...I thought you didn’t believe the window and shutters were open in the first place... ?

If the McCann's story is to be believed then one must.

Jim Gamble is ruling in woke & wandered, proof he either doesn't know what he's talking about or that he doubts the McCann's version of events.

Clearly he doesn't doubt the McCanns, so he obviously doesn't have a clue.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 02, 2019, 10:24:25 PM
Of course not.

Firstly, How does woke & wandered account for that open window/shutters?

(2) There was a child gate at the rear exit.

& (C) I don't believe Maddie was alive anyway.


So what do you believe?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 02, 2019, 10:29:01 PM

So what do you believe?

I believe for every drop of rain that falls, a flower grows

I believe that somewhere in the darkest night, a candle glows

I believe for everyone that goes astray, someone will come to show the way

I believe, I believe
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 02, 2019, 10:30:28 PM

Every time I hear a newborn baby cry, or touch a leaf, or see the sky, then I know why I believe.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 02, 2019, 10:33:57 PM
Goodnight.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 02, 2019, 10:59:52 PM
8)><( what an offensive post  8)><(

You have been offensive to more than one poster today.

If you don´t like the response, perhaps you could be civil in the first place.

Is that asking too much?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 02, 2019, 11:15:34 PM
You have been offensive to more than one poster today.

If you don´t like the response, perhaps you could be civil in the first place.

Is that asking too much?
I’m excercising my freedom of speech, something that is held in such high esteem in your adopted country that it trumps the right to a good name and reputation.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 03, 2019, 01:14:04 AM
OK. Thanks anyway. I have always harboured a bit of concern about disposal of a wrapped body down an elevator shaft.
How does one get into an elevator shaft?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 03, 2019, 01:19:19 AM
The question was... Has he been cleared... Perhaps if somone answerred it I wouldnt have to keep bringing but up
Well I would say he hasn't been cleared.  He might have been found not guilty, but when someone is fully cleared they use the word "exonerated".
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 03, 2019, 01:24:42 AM

There's no independent confirmation that MBM was put to bed on 3rd May or that she was in that bed at 21:05. but you believe it.
No you have to take the parent's word for that. As is happening in homes all over the Earth everyday, there is no independent confirmation of what is happening.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 03, 2019, 01:26:40 AM
Don't worry.

I see you have already been labelled as a sceptic, and denigated by supporters.  That's how it works around here.

There are those who take more measured views.  You just need to work out who issues put-downs and who is willing to help.
So I your own estimation what do you class yourself?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 03, 2019, 01:28:37 AM
Rowley said the question of parental involvement was dealt with by the Portuguese. Why don't you believe him?
So what did they tell OG?  The McCanns were still suspects or they were cleared?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 03, 2019, 01:40:16 AM
If the McCann's story is to be believed then one must.

Jim Gamble is ruling in woke & wandered, proof he either doesn't know what he's talking about or that he doubts the McCann's version of events.

Clearly he doesn't doubt the McCanns, so he obviously doesn't have a clue.
Nothing stopping Madeleine leaving via the front door.  Kate only denies Madeleine left via the rear door.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 03, 2019, 01:45:19 AM
How does one get into an elevator shaft?
                  It can happen
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 03, 2019, 01:53:26 AM
                  It can happen

Still a bit of an unknown.  I could imagine if the switches were faulty and a suitcase got stuck in the door it could  move up to a position where there was space to fall out the door.  There needs to be an answer to a problem like that.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on May 03, 2019, 01:59:17 AM
How does one get into an elevator shaft?

You need to google "murder victims found in an elevator shaft" and also check out the design of them.

There is also a story here about a boy who accidentally fell down a shaft & survived. https://www.jpost.com/Magazine/The-Human-Spirit-The-boy-who-fell-five-floors-down-an-elevator-shaft-576163
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 03, 2019, 02:45:48 AM
Nothing stopping Madeleine leaving via the front door.  Kate only denies Madeleine left via the rear door.

Then who opened the window & shutters?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 03, 2019, 02:47:27 AM
You need to google "murder victims found in an elevator shaft" and also check out the design of them.

There is also a story here about a boy who accidentally fell down a shaft & survived. https://www.jpost.com/Magazine/The-Human-Spirit-The-boy-who-fell-five-floors-down-an-elevator-shaft-576163

Ouch!!!  That is some story.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 03, 2019, 07:10:31 AM
Then who opened the window & shutters?
Robert Murat and Smithman. With gloves on.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 03, 2019, 07:13:32 AM
No you have to take the parent's word for that. As is happening in homes all over the Earth everyday, there is no independent confirmation of what is happening.

In most cases there's no reason to question their word. Occasionally there is,

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 03, 2019, 07:18:12 AM
In most cases there's no reason to question their word. Occasionally there is,


How do you decide when to believe  parents
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 03, 2019, 07:41:13 AM

How do you decide when to believe  parents
When they're obviously not lying. Or they're very good at lying.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 03, 2019, 07:51:02 AM
When they're obviously not lying. Or they're very good at lying.

so the police decide...as they seem to have done in this case...parents not suspects so not considered to be lying
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 03, 2019, 08:00:11 AM
so the police decide...as they seem to have done in this case...parents not suspects so not considered to be lying
Your circular, questions with pre-ordaned answers are rendered pointless.

The police did decide. They decided the parents were lying. They just couldn't prove it. Happens all the time in criminal justice - the police know who the perp is, just can't pin it on them..........yet.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 03, 2019, 08:01:25 AM
When they're obviously not lying. Or they're very good at lying.
How do you decide between the two?  Were Ben Needham’s grandparents obviously not lying, if so how do you know this, based on what, or do you think they haven’t been cleared of Ben’s disappearance?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 03, 2019, 08:02:53 AM
Your circular, questions with pre-ordaned answers are rendered pointless.

The police did decide. They decided the parents were lying. They just couldn't prove it. Happens all the time in criminal justice - the police know who the perp is, just can't pin it on them..........yet.

the initial investigation that has been shown not to have understood the evidence thought the parents were lying....the present PJ investigation and SY seeem to think otherwise
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 03, 2019, 08:13:54 AM
How do you decide between the two?  Were Ben Needham’s grandparents obviously not lying, if so how do you know this, based on what, or do you think they haven’t been cleared of Ben’s disappearance?
I haven't seen any footage or witness statements from Ben Needham's grandparents, so I can't comment.
I'm only vaguely aware of the case, remiss of me, I know.

To answer the question, and it's a good one, I suppose it's the same as every other human being, using judgement, making a considered opinion or coming to a sensible conclusion based on the available data. It's prejudiced, biased, discriminatory, presumptive, somewhat flawed perhaps and loaded with emotion distilled from life experiences and conditioning. Same as most rational people. But then I'm not a judge, which is just as well, as I'd make a rubbish judge - GUILTY! FLOG HIM!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 03, 2019, 08:20:19 AM
I haven't seen any footage or witness statements from Ben Needham's grandparents, so I can't comment.
I'm only vaguely aware of the case, remiss of me, I know.

To answer the question, and it's a good one, I suppose it's the same as every other human being, using judgement, making a considered opinion or coming to a sensible conclusion based on the available data. It's prejudiced, biased, discriminatory, presumptive, somewhat flawed perhaps and loaded with emotion distilled from life experiences and conditioning. Same as most rational people. But then I'm not a judge, which is just as well, as I'd make a rubbish judge - GUILTY! FLOG HIM!
Are you admitting you’re probably not a very good judge then?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 03, 2019, 08:21:57 AM
So what did they tell OG?  The McCanns were still suspects or they were cleared?

Perhaps everyone misunderstood the meaning of the archiving dispatch. Oh dear.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 03, 2019, 08:24:10 AM
Are you admitting you’re probably not a very good judge then?
Yes. I'm a crap judge. I'm not precious. I won't sit here and start spewing about how right I am. I've learnt humility.
Doesn't disallow me from having an opinion or taking a stance. Like the old adage, opinions are like.......
I try to be rational, but it's not easy with this lifetime of baggage I'm carrying around.
I don't need unpicking, comment by comment, compromising answer by compromising answer. If you feel my opinions are invalid, so be it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 03, 2019, 08:37:25 AM
Yes. I'm a crap judge. I'm not precious. I won't sit here and start spewing about how right I am. I've learnt humility.
Doesn't disallow me from having an opinion or taking a stance. Like the old adage, opinions are like.......
I try to be rational, but it's not easy with this lifetime of baggage I'm carrying around.
I don't need unpicking, comment by comment, compromising answer by compromising answer. If you feel my opinions are invalid, so be it.

Got to be like Cliff, man

"Got no bags and baggage to slow me down,
I'm travellin' so fast my feet ain't touchin' the ground,
Travellin' light, travellin' light",
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 03, 2019, 08:39:03 AM
Got to be like Cliff, man

"Got no bags and baggage to slow me down,
I'm travellin' so fast my feet ain't touchin' the ground,
Travellin' light, travellin' light",
Bless him. Good old Cliff.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 03, 2019, 09:39:28 AM

How do you decide when to believe  parents

In a criminal investigation you are searching for facts. Unless something a witness says is independently confirmed it isn't a fact. Therefore it can't be believed. That doesn't mean it should be disbelieved either. It means both possibilities remain on the table.

The receotionist Helder Luis, for exanple, said he telephoned the GNR  between 21:30 and 22:00. Should we believe him?

The Millenium barman Nelson Rodriguez said he telephoned Luis de Barros and that phone call is recorded, therefore I believe him.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 03, 2019, 09:45:11 AM
In a criminal investigation you are searching for facts. Unless something a witness says is independently confirmed it isn't a fact. Therefore it can't be believed. That doesn't mean it should be disbelieved either. It means both possibilities remain on the table.

The receotionist Helder Luis, for exanple, said he telephoned the GNR  between 21:30 and 22:00. Should we believe him?

The Millenium barman Nelson Rodriguez said he telephoned Luis de Barros and that phone call is recorded, therefore I believe him.

No.. You sort the wheat from the chaff... And I think you are quite wrong... The police have to decide who they think is telling the truth based on the evidence.. Based on your thinking no case, would ever progress... Do we know Ben Needhams grandmother is telling the truth.. No independent verification
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: kizzy on May 03, 2019, 10:14:03 AM
No.. You sort the wheat from the chaff... And I think you are quite wrong... The police have to decide who they think is telling the truth based on the evidence.. Based on your thinking no case, would ever progress... Do we know Ben Needhams grandmother is telling the truth.. No independent verification



how ridiculous is that really to sort the wheat from the chaff

So let us say they are looking at woke and wandered - is that the wheat

If so that means the blowing curtains open window is the chaff

The very thing that told kmc  Maddie had been abducted is chaff then. so not true it seems as to your calculation

Only one of them would be right - not both scenarios
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 03, 2019, 10:16:27 AM


how ridiculous is that really to sort the wheat from the chaff

So let us say they are looking at woke and wandered - is that the wheat

If so that means the blowing curtains open window is the chaff

The very thing that told kmc  Maddie had been abducted is chaff then. so not true it seems as to your calculation

Only one of them would be right - not both scenarios

It's quite a simple procedure... I'm sure the police understand if you dont
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 03, 2019, 10:33:34 AM
No.. You sort the wheat from the chaff... And I think you are quite wrong... The police have to decide who they think is telling the truth based on the evidence.. Based on your thinking no case, would ever progress... Do we know Ben Needhams grandmother is telling the truth.. No independent verification

I'm sure theres a Ben Needham section on the JF board,but what is it the Grandmother said that you wish to drag into the McCann case that might have a bearing.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 03, 2019, 10:35:42 AM
No.. You sort the wheat from the chaff... And I think you are quite wrong... The police have to decide who they think is telling the truth based on the evidence.. Based on your thinking no case, would ever progress... Do we know Ben Needhams grandmother is telling the truth.. No independent verification

I'm sure the police form opinions just like everyone else. What they should avoid is allowing their opinions to become firm beliefs. The first investigators didn't believe what they were told about when MBM was last seen, for example. They thought 17:30 was independently verified by Cat Baker. The evidence given by DP and GMc relating to 18:40 and 21:05 was qualified by 'if'.

By contrast we have OG making assumptions. Simon Foy said:

"It was perfectly clear to us that the McCanns themselves had nothing at all  to do with the actual disappearance....It was just obvious..from..you know..that everything stacked up that they were, you know, they were where they were when the child went missing"
Podcast; Gomcalo Amaral 23:30

In my opinion that is a nonsensiclal statement. Foy is assuming that he knew the time at which MBM went missing. He didn't.

FYI; I have no intention of commenting on the Needhan case.

 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 03, 2019, 10:50:59 AM
I'm sure theres a Ben Needham section on the JF board,but what is it the Grandmother said that you wish to drag into the McCann case that might have a bearing.

I'm not dragging anyone in... If we are going to discuss police procedure then we have to see the McCann case in context
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 03, 2019, 10:53:55 AM
I'm sure the police form opinions just like everyone else. What they should avoid is allowing their opinions to become firm beliefs. The first investigators didn't believe what they were told about when MBM was last seen, for example. They thought 17:30 was independently verified by Cat Baker. The evidence given by DP and GMc relating to 18:40 and 21:05 was qualified by 'if'.

By contrast we have OG making assumptions. Simon Foy said:

"It was perfectly clear to us that the McCanns themselves had nothing at all  to do with the actual disappearance....It was just obvious..from..you know..that everything stacked up that they were, you know, they were where they were when the child went missing"
Podcast; Gomcalo Amaral 23:30

In my opinion that is a nonsensiclal statement. Foy is assuming that he knew the time at which MBM went missing. He didn't.

FYI; I have no intention of commenting on the Needhan case.

If you don't wish to discuss other cases then fine.... But then dint say in other cases it's usually the parents who are responsible... Let's keep all other cases out  ...then you have no understanding of usual police practice.. Which I don't believe you do
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 03, 2019, 11:14:42 AM
I'm not dragging anyone in... If we are going to discuss police procedure then we have to see the McCann case in context

Police procedure? Is that what you think you're discussing?  What I see is an assertion that the police decide who they believe. To support your assertion you are trying to say that SYP decided to believe someone in another case. You offer no evidence to support this, so I see it as an inverified guess.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 03, 2019, 11:17:06 AM
Police procedure? Is that what you think you're discussing?  What I see is an assertion that the police decide who they believe. To support your assertion you are trying to say that SYP decided to believe someone in another case. You offer no evidence to support this, so I see it as an inverified guess.

I'm saying the police have to decide who they believe based in the evidence... It's, what they do in general as I could show citing other cases... But you don't want to consider other cases
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 03, 2019, 11:52:46 AM
I'm saying the police have to decide who they believe based in the evidence... It's, what they do in general as I could show citing other cases... But you don't want to consider other cases

I don't think forming beliefs plays any part in recommended police procedures, whatever you choose to believe. I notice you don't comment on Foy's account of how OG ruled out parental involvement. I'm not surprised being as it began with a false premise which OG itself later destrpyed; that they knew what time Madeleine disappeared,
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 03, 2019, 11:54:14 AM
I’m excercising my freedom of speech, something that is held in such high esteem in your adopted country that it trumps the right to a good name and reputation.  Deal with it.

There you go again.  Another dollop of rudeness.

Here it is called maleducado, meaning bad mannered, literally badly educated.

What's the word for it in your country?  I'd guess it's something significantly stronger than rude or impolite.

However, if that is how you wish to portray yourself, that is your choice.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 03, 2019, 12:25:20 PM
I don't think forming beliefs plays any part in recommended police procedures, whatever you choose to believe. I notice you don't comment on Foy's account of how OG ruled out parental involvement. I'm not surprised being as it began with a false premise which OG itself later destrpyed; that they knew what time Madeleine disappeared,

Of course they do... The police have to decide... Based on the evidence who is telling the truth... I've commented on foys before and will do so again from my PC... I think sceptics just twist foys words to suit there aganda
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 03, 2019, 12:55:47 PM
Of course they do... The police have to decide... Based on the evidence who is telling the truth... I've commented on foys before and will do so again from my PC... I think sceptics just twist foys words to suit there aganda

A, B. C.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 03, 2019, 01:32:55 PM
Perhaps everyone misunderstood the meaning of the archiving dispatch. Oh dear.
The archiving dispatch wasn't written for the benefit of OG.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 03, 2019, 01:56:01 PM
The archiving dispatch wasn't written for the benefit of OG.

That doesn't mean that the PJ and OG didn't misunderstand it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 03, 2019, 02:03:46 PM
That doesn't mean that the PJ and OG didn't misunderstand it.

No evidence of any crime seems pretty clear... How could anyone misunderstand that
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 03, 2019, 02:19:36 PM
It remains to be seen just how "No evidence of any crime" equated to evidence of an abduction for OG.
Seems heluva mean spirited on the former suspects for OG not to release some titbits of what evidence they have that proves an abductor went into that apartment and stole a child.

I'm not going anywhere, no one's abducted me. I have all the time in the world and the investigation can't go on forever. They'll have to spill the beans (if there are any) sooner or later. Not beans to spill = No abduction took place imo.

No evidence of any crime by the mccanns... Not no evidence if any crime
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 03, 2019, 02:23:29 PM
It remains to be seen just how "No evidence of any crime" equated to evidence of an abduction for OG.
Seems heluva mean spirited on the former suspects for OG not to release some titbits of what evidence they have that proves an abductor went into that apartment and stole a child.

I'm not going anywhere, no one's abducted me. I have all the time in the world and the investigation can't go on forever. They'll have to spill the beans (if there are any) sooner or later. Not beans to spill = No abduction took place imo.

That seems exactly the state of play - right from the beginning of this affair.

Plenty of suspicions and beliefs, but no definitive evidence to indicate, without doubt, what exactly happened.

I doubt that this will change, however long the investigation goes on for.


Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 03, 2019, 02:32:13 PM
No evidence of any crime by the mccanns... Not no evidence if any crime

The arciving dispatch didn't identify a crime, just possible crimes.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 03, 2019, 02:46:52 PM
The arciving dispatch didn't identify a crime, just possible crimes.

It said there was no evidence of ANY crime by the McCann's... What di you think that meant
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 03, 2019, 02:57:34 PM
I'm not so sure. If Scotland Yard are telling the truth and the Tanner sighting was an abductor who never existed, then they have evidence (the fabulous moving door) that indicates an attempt to pervert the course of justice as been uncovered. It didn't just move once, it moved twice according to Gerry. It wasn't Tannerman that moved it according to Scotland Yard.

Someone moved it, unless Gerry is lying. We all know how honest he is, right?

He was only there once - at 9 ish, so could only observe the door position on that occasion.

Much as I would like to see the bunch of them facing charges of perverting the course of justice, I can't see it happening.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 03, 2019, 03:26:40 PM
But he said he put it back in place again, so who moved it and then moved it again before MO went in at 9.30? Kate said Madeleine was knackered. I find it impossible to believe that anyone slept in the bed they claimed Madeleine was in. I also find it impossible to believe that MO didn't notice no one was in the very disturbed bed under the window that he could see and is instead asking us to accept he presumed Madeleine was in a well made bed he couldn't see.

A convicted abductor or an alive Madeleine McCann will prove the evidence I'm considering to be wrong.


The answer my friend is blowing in the wind.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 03, 2019, 03:28:38 PM

The answer my friend is blowing in the wind.

Then Donovan's "ah but I may as well try and catch the wind" seems apt.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 03, 2019, 04:54:30 PM
That doesn't mean that the PJ and OG didn't misunderstand it.
my original comment was "So what did they tell OG?  The McCanns were still suspects or they were cleared?"

So are we to understand that your comment "Rowley said the question of parental involvement was dealt with by the Portuguese. Why don't you believe him?"  implies that the OG got the wrong impression from the archiving report. 
How can the Portuguese still think they are possible suspects yet OG say they are cleared by the Portuguese investigation?
Original comment:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10605.msg524760#msg524760
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 03, 2019, 04:55:28 PM
The blowing in the wind point is also a vital point imo. Did it never dawn on either Kate or Gerry that the slamming door Kate alleges she witnessed at 10 pm coincided with the sighting of a man carrying a child matching Madeleine's description toward the beach at 10pm? Obviously not, because they completely ignored this man of significant interest until Scotland Yard took an interest on their behalf.

How can anyone take their so called search seriously when it is littered with such serious flaws.?
Matched Madeleine's description? Less than two hundred meters from their apartment? and they didn't lift a finger in their so called search for their missing child.

The answer got it fingers stuck in the slamming door while it was at it imo.

Why would you imagine that Kate McCann would know anything about the Smith sighting ... considering it was not reported to the PJ until a fortnight after the event when Peter Smith allegedly wondered if he had dreamt it?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 03, 2019, 04:57:46 PM
No evidence of any crime seems pretty clear... How could anyone misunderstand that
It could mean they missed it.  It could mean they were prevented in finding the evidence.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 03, 2019, 05:03:12 PM
The blowing in the wind point is also a vital point imo. Did it never dawn on either Kate or Gerry that the slamming door Kate alleges she witnessed at 10 pm coincided with the sighting of a man carrying a child matching Madeleine's description toward the beach at 10pm? Obviously not, because they completely ignored this man of significant interest until Scotland Yard took an interest on their behalf.

How can anyone take their so called search seriously when it is littered with such serious flaws.?
Matched Madeleine's description? Less than two hundred meters from their apartment? and they didn't lift a finger in their so called search for their missing child.

The answer got it fingers stuck in the slamming door while it was at it imo.
Keep to the topic.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 03, 2019, 05:22:32 PM
Why were Maddie suspect E-fits kept SECRET for five years? Images and evidence of sighting uncovered by private detectives were suppressed

SNIP: "It emerged yesterday that the recently released E-fits were in fact contained in files produced FIVE years ago by private investigators hired by the McCanns. Similarly, those private detectives had questioned the Tanner sighting and the timings associated with it.

But the E-fits were kept private, and the questioning of the Tanner sighting and related timeline were kept quiet. One detective said he was ‘utterly stunned’ to see his five-year-old dossier suddenly presented as new on TV."


 
Matched Madeleine's description? Less than two hundred meters from their apartment? and they didn't lift a finger in their so called search for their missing child until Scotland Yard done it for them more than FIVE years later.

I'm stuck for words!

How did they get two E-fits for the same person, when in their PJ statements the Smiths say they didn't get a good look at the man. 
E-fits require a look at the face and need to be produced within days of the sighting.  The E-fits IMO are worthless.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 03, 2019, 05:26:42 PM
The blowing in the wind point is also a vital point imo. Did it never dawn on either Kate or Gerry that the slamming door Kate alleges she witnessed at 10 pm coincided with the sighting of a man carrying a child matching Madeleine's description toward the beach at 10pm? Obviously not, because they completely ignored this man of significant interest until Scotland Yard took an interest on their behalf.

How can anyone take their so called search seriously when it is littered with such serious flaws.?
Matched Madeleine's description? Less than two hundred meters from their apartment? and they didn't lift a finger in their so called search for their missing child.

The answer got it fingers stuck in the slamming door while it was at it imo.

Where do the bold bits come from?  The Smith's sighting was definitely more than 200 meters from the apartment.  More like 500 meters from memory. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 03, 2019, 05:29:45 PM
Why were Maddie suspect E-fits kept SECRET for five years? Images and evidence of sighting uncovered by private detectives were suppressed

SNIP: "It emerged yesterday that the recently released E-fits were in fact contained in files produced FIVE years ago by private investigators hired by the McCanns. Similarly, those private detectives had questioned the Tanner sighting and the timings associated with it.

But the E-fits were kept private, and the questioning of the Tanner sighting and related timeline were kept quiet. One detective said he was ‘utterly stunned’ to see his five-year-old dossier suddenly presented as new on TV."


 
Matched Madeleine's description? Less than two hundred meters from their apartment? and they didn't lift a finger in their so called search for their missing child until Scotland Yard done it for them more than FIVE years later.

I'm stuck for words!

You are aware that the allegation you are making cost the Sunday Times Ł55,000 in libel damages.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 03, 2019, 05:32:57 PM
They weren't worthless in Scotland Yard's professional opinion were they. Whose opinion counts here, yours or the police?
We looked into the E-fits in detail.  OK they asked the public if anyone recognised the faces but there were two faces to compare to.  Produced after the time Gerry was identified by Martin Smith if my memory serves me correct.   The MPS would never produce E-fits themselves under those conditions.  They are seriously flawed IMO.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 03, 2019, 05:35:15 PM
We looked into the E-fits in detail.  OK they asked the public if anyone recognised the faces but there were two faces to compare to.  Produced after the time Gerry was identified by Martin Smith if my memory serves me correct.   The MPS would never produce E-fits themselves under those conditions.  They are seriously flawed IMO.

So SY asking for info about the sighting is a seriously falwed investigation then,strangely many think the same.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 03, 2019, 05:38:44 PM
OK, big deal, what's 300 meters when some dirty old pedophile has abducted your daughter?
And why have you bolded the matched Madeleine's description bit? Didn't you watch Crimewatch?
So you are blaming the quote of 200 meters on the Crimewatch program. 

Who is WE when they are at home?
This forum.  Maybe 1 or 2 years ago.

So SY asking for info about the sighting is a seriously falwed investigation then,strangely many think the same.

Well it would have been exciting at the time.  Yes it was completely wrong IMO.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 03, 2019, 05:39:47 PM
Who is WE when they are at home?

The forum ???  We discussed it at length and in some detail ... might be worth you searching for the thread and having a read.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 03, 2019, 05:41:41 PM
Who is WE when they are at home?

The experts on here.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 03, 2019, 06:05:40 PM
Yes. I'm a crap judge. I'm not precious. I won't sit here and start spewing about how right I am. I've learnt humility.
Doesn't disallow me from having an opinion or taking a stance. Like the old adage, opinions are like.......
I try to be rational, but it's not easy with this lifetime of baggage I'm carrying around.
I don't need unpicking, comment by comment, compromising answer by compromising answer. If you feel my opinions are invalid, so be it.
If every sceptic was as honest as you I really wouldn’t have a problem with them at all.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 03, 2019, 06:08:33 PM
If every sceptic was as honest as you I really wouldn’t have a problem with them at all.

Don't see why you have a problem anyway. It's not as if is actually real life - it's only cyber-waffle
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 03, 2019, 06:10:09 PM
There you go again.  Another dollop of rudeness.

Here it is called maleducado, meaning bad mannered, literally badly educated.

What's the word for it in your country?  I'd guess it's something significantly stronger than rude or impolite.

However, if that is how you wish to portray yourself, that is your choice.
Thank you for allowing it.  I find you similarly rude and goading so I guess we’re as bad as each other.  ^*&&
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 03, 2019, 06:13:45 PM
Don't see why you have a problem anyway. It's not as if is actually real life - it's only cyber-waffle
I had a bet with myself when I posted that comment that you would reply exactly as you did.  Should have gone down Ladbrokes instead.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 03, 2019, 06:17:42 PM
What is it that leads you to believe other sceptics are dishonest exactly?
The way they respond to my posts, moving goal posts, avoiding questions, claiming to have no beliefs, that sort of thing.  The General is admirably candid, if only she was prepared to criticise her “own side” on here when they write nonsense she’d be practically perfect  ?{)(**
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 03, 2019, 06:17:57 PM
I had a bet with myself when I posted that comment that you would reply exactly as you did.  Should have gone down Ladbrokes instead.

Certainly might be more profitable than being on here.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 03, 2019, 06:18:17 PM
I'm not so sure. If Scotland Yard are telling the truth and the Tanner sighting was an abductor who never existed, then they have evidence (the fabulous moving door) that indicates an attempt to pervert the course of justice as been uncovered. It didn't just move once, it moved twice according to Gerry. It wasn't Tannerman that moved it according to Scotland Yard.

Someone moved it, right?

I hold with the belief that the wind moved the door what with the opening of the patio door and then the window on what was confirmed as a squally night.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 03, 2019, 06:18:29 PM
Certainly might be more profitable than being on here.
Well that’s undeniable.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 03, 2019, 06:23:30 PM
But he said he put it back in place again, so who moved it and then moved it again before MO went in at 9.30? Kate said Madeleine was knackered. I find it impossible to believe that anyone slept in the bed they claimed Madeleine was in. I also find it impossible to believe that MO didn't notice no one was in the very disturbed bed under the window that he could see and is instead asking us to accept he presumed Madeleine was in a well made bed he couldn't see.
 
I don't believe a word they say for the very well censored reasons I have previously given. I find it hard to believe that professional police behind the scenes do either.

A convicted abductor or an alive Madeleine McCann will prove the evidence I'm considering to be wrong.

I don't think they do believe them. Their story changed so often that I wouldn't believe them.  Nobody forgets which door they used to enter their holiday apartment or forget on which side of the street they were on during an encounter with another guest, the whole thing was a charade imho.  The Oldfield encounter with Kate McCann just hours before Maddie disappeared is yet another unexplained example of two people remembering an event so completely differently that one of them must be either confused, lying or covering up.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 03, 2019, 06:23:45 PM
Thank you for allowing it.  I find you similarly rude and goading so I guess we’re as bad as each other.  ^*&&

Nope. I can't stand bullies.

I need to take my cadaver dog out for a walkie.

Then I need to cook for him, and for us.  It's chicken all round.  I just need to make sure his isn't spicy or salty.

Ours will turn the chilli heat up.

By the way, note the you have conceded that you are rude and goading.   In your own words.

 &%%6
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 03, 2019, 06:30:16 PM
Nope. I can't stand bullies.

I need to take my cadaver dog out for a walkie.

Then I need to cook for him, and for us.  It's chicken all round.  I just need to make sure his isn't spicy or salty.

Ours will turn the chilli heat up.

By the way, note the you have conceded that you are rude and goading.   In your own words.

 &%%6
Only to those who are rude and goading themselves.  ()678%
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 03, 2019, 06:40:11 PM
Only to those who are rude and goading themselves.  ()678%

You are watched again, for whatever reason  I don't know.

But perhaps you should learn from your frequent incarcerations.

Just a thought

Sorry, I need to go out now.  My doggie is mithreing me right now.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 03, 2019, 06:42:41 PM

Okay, Girls, that'll do.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 03, 2019, 06:59:20 PM
my original comment was "So what did they tell OG?  The McCanns were still suspects or they were cleared?"

So are we to understand that your comment "Rowley said the question of parental involvement was dealt with by the Portuguese. Why don't you believe him?"  implies that the OG got the wrong impression from the archiving report. 
How can the Portuguese still think they are possible suspects yet OG say they are cleared by the Portuguese investigation?
Original comment:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10605.msg524760#msg524760

Foy and Redwood relied on their 'forensic' examination of an inverified timeline and an assumed time of  disappearance. Rowley tried a different tack. The truth, imo, is that the only crime they set out to investigate was stranger abduction.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 03, 2019, 07:14:53 PM
So he believes NSY will make this German a scapegoat?
They would need to manufacture evidence then?
Quite a serious accusation to make!

They would surely need the cooperation of the Portuguese police to do so?

Well if the latest from Portugal is true it seems they may have.


Detectives in the Madeleine McCann case are investigating a new kidnap suspect, Portuguese media has claimed on the 12th anniversary of her disappearance.

Police are said to be looking into an alleged foreign paedophile who was in Portugal in May 2007, following a tip-off from Scotland Yard.


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6988081/Kate-Gerry-McCann-vow-carry-looking-daughter-Madeleine-long-takes.html
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 03, 2019, 07:17:48 PM
Well if the latest from Portugal is true it seems they may have.


Detectives in the Madeleine McCann case are investigating a new kidnap suspect, Portuguese media has claimed on the 12th anniversary of her disappearance.

Police are said to be looking into an alleged foreign paedophile who was in Portugal in May 2007, following a tip-off from Scotland Yard.


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6988081/Kate-Gerry-McCann-vow-carry-looking-daughter-Madeleine-long-takes.html


Ooh, I see it's a Tracey anniversary special.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on May 03, 2019, 07:21:21 PM
We looked into the E-fits in detail.  OK they asked the public if anyone recognised the faces but there were two faces to compare to.  Produced after the time Gerry was identified by Martin Smith if my memory serves me correct.   The MPS would never produce E-fits themselves under those conditions.  They are seriously flawed IMO.

IMO one interesting aspect of the release of the 2 efits on Crimewatch Oct. 2013 was that at no time did DCI Redwood include a description of the clothing Smithman was seen wearing or details of his stature - surely important facts for identifying a specific person at a given time & location. Was this because SY associated Smithman with the man seen by Jane 45mins earlier and they had a face to put to the Tannerman sketch? It does explain why the clock could be moved forward to 10pm and thus try to fill in the blanks from 9.15-10pm for that night.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 03, 2019, 07:23:22 PM

Ooh, I see it's a Tracey anniversary special.
It’s a rehash of an article from Portugal.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 03, 2019, 07:26:33 PM
It’s a rehash of an article from Portugal.

With added value, I trust, otherwise it could be viewed as plagiarism   8(0(*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 03, 2019, 07:57:15 PM
IMO one interesting aspect of the release of the 2 efits on Crimewatch Oct. 2013 was that at no time did DCI Redwood include a description of the clothing Smithman was seen wearing or details of his stature - surely important facts for identifying a specific person at a given time & location. Was this because SY associated Smithman with the man seen by Jane 45mins earlier and they had a face to put to the Tannerman sketch? It does explain why the clock could be moved forward to 10pm and thus try to fill in the blanks from 9.15-10pm for that night.

Well spotted Misty.  I missed that entirely.  There was certainly a lot more to what DCI Redwood said or more importantly did not say than we will probably ever know, at least until Madeleine's case is solved.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 03, 2019, 08:07:18 PM
IMO one interesting aspect of the release of the 2 efits on Crimewatch Oct. 2013 was that at no time did DCI Redwood include a description of the clothing Smithman was seen wearing or details of his stature - surely important facts for identifying a specific person at a given time & location. Was this because SY associated Smithman with the man seen by Jane 45mins earlier and they had a face to put to the Tannerman sketch? It does explain why the clock could be moved forward to 10pm and thus try to fill in the blanks from 9.15-10pm for that night.

Redwood said he was almost certain that the person in that exact same area at the time of the Tanner sighting was not the abductor,how do you now put a face to him.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on May 03, 2019, 08:16:36 PM
Redwood said he was almost certain that the person in that exact same area at the time of the Tanner sighting was not the abductor,how do you now put a face to him.

You can put a face to someone who was an accomplice. The abductor was the person who unlawfully removed Madeleine from the apartment without her or her parents' permission.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 03, 2019, 08:25:35 PM
You can put a face to someone who was an accomplice. The abductor was the person who unlawfully removed Madeleine from the apartment without her or her parents' permission.

Alleged abductor,still no resolution to what crime was committed.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 03, 2019, 08:31:19 PM
Well if the latest from Portugal is true it seems they may have.


Detectives in the Madeleine McCann case are investigating a new kidnap suspect, Portuguese media has claimed on the 12th anniversary of her disappearance.

Police are said to be looking into an alleged foreign paedophile who was in Portugal in May 2007, following a tip-off from Scotland Yard.


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6988081/Kate-Gerry-McCann-vow-carry-looking-daughter-Madeleine-long-takes.html

Old news.

Kai Thomas Breas, spokesman for the German prosecutors, told the Sunday Express: “He has said he hasn’t killed in Portugal.
 
“German police have been in contact with Scotland Yard. We think he had a sexual interest only in boys.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Ney

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 03, 2019, 08:47:47 PM
Old news.

Kai Thomas Breas, spokesman for the German prosecutors, told the Sunday Express: “He has said he hasn’t killed in Portugal.
 
“German police have been in contact with Scotland Yard. We think he had a sexual interest only in boys.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Ney


Curses. OG thwarted again it would seem.
However, it's another box ticked
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 03, 2019, 08:59:06 PM
Old news.

Kai Thomas Breas, spokesman for the German prosecutors, told the Sunday Express: “He has said he hasn’t killed in Portugal.
 
“German police have been in contact with Scotland Yard. We think he had a sexual interest only in boys.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Ney

From 2011.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/245336/Maddie-link-to-German-child-killer

The 40-year-old German youth worker, who we can name only as Martin N, is being questioned over at least three child murders and 40 suspected attacks on children across Europe.

He bears a striking resemblance to the photofit of a man seen holding a child in his arms just minutes after Madeleine was snatched from Praia da Luz.


Can't be him after this time surely.



Curses. OG thwarted again it would seem.
However, it's another box ticked
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 03, 2019, 09:05:38 PM
From 2011.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/245336/Maddie-link-to-German-child-killer

The 40-year-old German youth worker, who we can name only as Martin N, is being questioned over at least three child murders and 40 suspected attacks on children across Europe.

He bears a striking resemblance to the photofit of a man seen holding a child in his arms just minutes after Madeleine was snatched from Praia da Luz.


Can't be him after this time surely.


Usual Express bollox.

No one knows when Madeleine was snatched - if she was.
Tanner produced Eggman, so how anyone can bear a striking resemble to an egg is beyond my understanding
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 03, 2019, 09:31:47 PM

This 'new' suspects name stayed a secret for long then.

The evidence against him?

He was a murderer & a paedophile & was in Portugal in May 2007.

It must have been him then, case solved.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 03, 2019, 09:34:00 PM
This 'new' suspects name stayed a secret for long then.

The evidence against him?

He was a murderer & a paedophile & was in Portugal in May 2007.

It must have been him then, case solved.
Wherabouts in Portugal was he in May 2007?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 03, 2019, 09:35:15 PM
Wherabouts in Portugal was he in May 2007?

Somewhere in the country. That's good enough I suppose. Burn him.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 03, 2019, 09:36:59 PM
Somewhere in the country. That's good enough I suppose. Burn him.

Changed his modus operandi for the chosen one.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 03, 2019, 09:57:14 PM
No, I'm not blaming the mistake of that insignificant fact (the extra 300 metres) on anyone other than me.

But you highlighted my claim that the man was carrying a child "matching Madeleine's description" part.

Here's what Redwood said, NOT me;
"The child he was descriped has having in his arms was about 3 to 4 years of age... with blonde hair... and possibly wearing pyjamas. A description VERY CLOSE to that of Madeleine McCann."

This is the same guy and child who they didn't bother trying to locate as part of their so called search despite attempts to locate other more ridiculous targets. Posh Spice? enough said.

You seriously expect people to take your (WE) opinion more seriously than that of professional police officers who are familiar with the case? You can forget that idea on my part.
IMO you are doing OK.  In my theory of what happened that girl could well be Madeleine McCann, but the person carrying her was not Gerry for he was searching around the Tapas area at that time.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 03, 2019, 10:27:13 PM
Somewhere in the country. That's good enough I suppose. Burn him.
What a childish response IMO. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 03, 2019, 10:30:48 PM
Changed his modus operandi for the chosen one.

How so?

“He targeted children on holiday, entering their tents, apartments or villas, armed with a knife or gun and wearing a black balaclava and clothing”.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 03, 2019, 10:32:54 PM
What a childish response IMO.

I'm sorry, am I expected to take this new lead seriously?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 03, 2019, 10:56:35 PM
I'm sorry, am I expected to take this new lead seriously?

Possibly not!
But still nothing to suggest that either investigating police forces are investigating Madeleine's parents.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 03, 2019, 11:00:10 PM
I'm sorry, am I expected to take this new lead seriously?
Why not?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 03, 2019, 11:15:10 PM
Why not?

A friend of the McCann’s added: “It is just odd that news of this possible new lead has come out of the anniversary of Madeleine’s disappearance and we’re wondering if it could have been made up."
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 03, 2019, 11:21:07 PM
A friend of the McCann’s added: “It is just odd that news of this possible new lead has come out of the anniversary of Madeleine’s disappearance and we’re wondering if it could have been made up."
Is this the same friend of the McCanns you usually sneer at for making stuff up to put in the papers?  Topsy-turvy ol’ world innit?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 03, 2019, 11:32:09 PM
Is this the same friend of the McCanns you usually sneer at for making stuff up to put in the papers?  Topsy-turvy ol’ world innit?

When have I done that?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 04, 2019, 12:02:19 AM
When have I done that?
Have yuo never sneered at “a friend of the McCanns said”?  Well hush my mouth.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 04, 2019, 08:43:00 AM
Possibly not!
But still nothing to suggest that either investigating police forces are investigating Madeleine's parents.

So that's alright then - nothing to worry about  8(0(*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 04, 2019, 08:52:12 AM
So that's alright then - nothing to worry about  8(0(*

Oh!
There's lots to worry about. 8(8-))
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 04, 2019, 10:16:33 AM
I've not listened to them so who am I to judge ... but I see the latest??? makes reference to Amaral's anonymous 'witness' of whom he introduced one or two into the equation ...
Snip
In episode nine of Maddie, Mr Amaral detailed how a woman had approached Portuguese police to tell them how she had observed the boot being left open for a period of days.

"Nobody denied that the car boot had been always open, they said it was because of the smell of garbage," Mr Amaral said.

"They said it was domestic garbage that was transported in the car boot."

https://www.9news.com.au/world/madeleine-mccann-smell-open-car-boot-amaral-maddie-podcast/1691f544-6061-47b6-a2c2-10f2a1ea1202

Riveting ? ... not
Of any benefit to the present police investigations into Madeleine's case ... I think not
A cash cow for Saunokonoko and channel9 ?? ... I would certainly think so

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 04, 2019, 10:29:28 AM
I've not listened to them so who am I to judge ... but I see the latest??? makes reference to Amaral's anonymous 'witness' of whom he introduced one or two into the equation ...
Snip
In episode nine of Maddie, Mr Amaral detailed how a woman had approached Portuguese police to tell them how she had observed the boot being left open for a period of days.

"Nobody denied that the car boot had been always open, they said it was because of the smell of garbage," Mr Amaral said.

"They said it was domestic garbage that was transported in the car boot."

https://www.9news.com.au/world/madeleine-mccann-smell-open-car-boot-amaral-maddie-podcast/1691f544-6061-47b6-a2c2-10f2a1ea1202

Riveting ? ... not
Of any benefit to the present police investigations into Madeleine's case ... I think not
A cash cow for Saunokonoko and channel9 ?? ... I would certainly think so

Who indeed.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 04, 2019, 10:54:57 AM
I've not listened to them so who am I to judge ... but I see the latest??? makes reference to Amaral's anonymous 'witness' of whom he introduced one or two into the equation ...
Snip
In episode nine of Maddie, Mr Amaral detailed how a woman had approached Portuguese police to tell them how she had observed the boot being left open for a period of days.

"Nobody denied that the car boot had been always open, they said it was because of the smell of garbage," Mr Amaral said.

"They said it was domestic garbage that was transported in the car boot."

https://www.9news.com.au/world/madeleine-mccann-smell-open-car-boot-amaral-maddie-podcast/1691f544-6061-47b6-a2c2-10f2a1ea1202

Riveting ? ... not
Of any benefit to the present police investigations into Madeleine's case ... I think not
A cash cow for Saunokonoko and channel9 ?? ... I would certainly think so

Rua das Flores is a cul-de-sac.  You can get out of the end on foot, not by car, but essentially that leads nowhere of relevance.

The nearest rubbish bins are at the entrance/exit of the estate.  They are perhaps 600 or more meters from the villa.  I know perfectly just how much rubbish a family of 2 adults and 2 infants plus guests produces.

The smart way to dispose of their rubbish would have been to stuck it in their boot, and to drop it off at the estate exit whenever they went out by car e.g. for shopping.

When we first heaved up around here, that is what my beloved did.  And the car boot stank as a result.  Since then, I have walked our rubbish to the nearest bin on a frequent basis, which has solved the problem.

Not that it is relevant, but I have included Rua das Flores and the local bins on more than one Luz Tour, to demonstrate to guests that a 'smelly boot' is perfectly innocuous.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 04, 2019, 11:13:19 AM
Rua das Flores is a cul-de-sac.  You can get out of the end on foot, not by car, but essentially that leads nowhere of relevance.

The nearest rubbish bins are at the entrance/exit of the estate.  They are perhaps 600 or more meters from the villa.  I know perfectly just how much rubbish a family of 2 adults and 2 infants plus guests produces.

The smart way to dispose of their rubbish would have been to stuck it in their boot, and to drop it off at the estate exit whenever they went out by car e.g. for shopping.

When we first heaved up around here, that is what my beloved did.  And the car boot stank as a result.  Since then, I have walked our rubbish to the nearest bin on a frequent basis, which has solved the problem.

Not that it is relevant, but I have included Rua das Flores and the local bins on more than one Luz Tour, to demonstrate to guests that a 'smelly boot' is perfectly innocuous.

Thank you for that first hand report which mirrors the experience outlined in the statements of the hire car drivers.  Nothing at all suspicious about giving the boot a right good valeting after being used to transport household rubbish.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 04, 2019, 11:53:30 AM
The dogs don't alert to smelly rubbish. The witness was a lawyer. How ironic!

“I drive down this street every day to turn my car around at that end and every time that I passed the house and I looked at the car, and the car always had an open boot door, day or night. I often passed at night and always verified it. It was a fact, I reported it and that was it”.

 "We decided to move her."
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 04, 2019, 12:09:47 PM
The dogs don't alert to smelly rubbish. The witness was a lawyer. How ironic!

“I drive down this street every day to turn my car around at that end and every time that I passed the house and I looked at the car, and the car always had an open boot door, day or night. I often passed at night and always verified it. It was a fact, I reported it and that was it”.

 "We decided to move her."

So what do the dogs alert to?  I don't mean what Grime claimed the dogs alert to.  I mean what they actually alerted to.

By the way, I was pointing out why the boot being smelly and being aired is perfectly logical and not in the least suspicious.  I didn't comment on the dogs.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 04, 2019, 12:21:10 PM
The dogs don't alert to smelly rubbish. The witness was a lawyer. How ironic!

“I drive down this street every day to turn my car around at that end and every time that I passed the house and I looked at the car, and the car always had an open boot door, day or night. I often passed at night and always verified it. It was a fact, I reported it and that was it”.

 "We decided to move her."

The anonymous witness who I believe never made a police statement ... if she did ... are you able to direct us to it?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 04, 2019, 12:23:57 PM
So what do the dogs alert to?  I don't mean what Grime claimed the dogs alert to.  I mean what they actually alerted to.

By the way, I was pointing out why the boot being smelly and being aired is perfectly logical and not in the least suspicious.  I didn't comment on the dogs.

This wasn't a night airing. Every day the witness passed she saw an open boot day and night. You don't think that is suspicious in a missing child case? You know what the dogs alert to. Eddie was trained to detect cadaver scent and blood. Keela only alerts to human blood.

Conclusion

In the objects recovered from the Scenic, there were around 15 blonde/fair hairs similar to the reference hairs from SJM2, 4 and 5. However, as it was not possible to do solid [definitive] or significant [forensically meaningful] tests it is not possible for me to determine if, or not, these could have been from Madeleine McCann.

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/A_L_PALMER.htm

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 04, 2019, 12:40:33 PM
So what do the dogs alert to?  I don't mean what Grime claimed the dogs alert to.  I mean what they actually alerted to.

By the way, I was pointing out why the boot being smelly and being aired is perfectly logical and not in the least suspicious.  I didn't comment on the dogs.
Having hired many vehicles over the years, I don't even fart in them for fear of some punitive, hidden charge being applied - 'Mr. General, that will be Ł4000 please'.
Leaving the back door open all night  - I'd literally would have had to be trying to cover up some heinous crime to even consider it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 04, 2019, 12:45:54 PM
Having hired many vehicles over the years, I don't even fart in them for fear of some punitive, hidden charge being applied - 'Mr. General, that will be Ł4000 please'.
Leaving the back door open all night  - I'd literally would have had to be trying to cover up some heinous crime to even consider it.

But it felt so safe there - even after they'd lost one of the children in their care, they were willing to leave a car they didn't own open to the potential villains roaming the streets each night

Yeah, sure.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: kizzy on May 04, 2019, 12:52:28 PM
Rua das Flores is a cul-de-sac.  You can get out of the end on foot, not by car, but essentially that leads nowhere of relevance.

The nearest rubbish bins are at the entrance/exit of the estate.  They are perhaps 600 or more meters from the villa.  I know perfectly just how much rubbish a family of 2 adults and 2 infants plus guests produces.

The smart way to dispose of their rubbish would have been to stuck it in their boot, and to drop it off at the estate exit whenever they went out by car e.g. for shopping.

When we first heaved up around here, that is what my beloved did.  And the car boot stank as a result.  Since then, I have walked our rubbish to the nearest bin on a frequent basis, which has solved the problem.

Not that it is relevant, but I have included Rua das Flores and the local bins on more than one Luz Tour, to demonstrate to guests that a 'smelly boot' is perfectly innocuous.


When we first heaved up around here, that is what my beloved did.  And the car boot stank as a result.  Since then, I have walked our rubbish to the nearest bin on a frequent basis, which has solved the problem.



Just out of curiosity - did you have to leave the boot open day and night.

With all that went on also burglars etc - surely the mcns would have known by then it wasn't a safe thing to do.

Or was it a safe place after all imo
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 04, 2019, 12:53:52 PM
This wasn't a night airing. Every day the witness passed she saw an open boot day and night. You don't think that is suspicious in a missing child case? You know what the dogs alert to. Eddie was trained to detect cadaver scent and blood. Keela only alerts to human blood.

Conclusion

In the objects recovered from the Scenic, there were around 15 blonde/fair hairs similar to the reference hairs from SJM2, 4 and 5. However, as it was not possible to do solid [definitive] or significant [forensically meaningful] tests it is not possible for me to determine if, or not, these could have been from Madeleine McCann.

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/A_L_PALMER.htm

I asked what the dogs actually do, not what Grime said they did.  So the answer is NOT what Grime said they did.

I'm a fan of true doggie deployments, so here's one for the forum.

In England, a man went missing.  The police conducted an extensive ground search in the area, particularly focusing on where he wast last seen and the route he was likely to have taken on his walk home.  They found nothing, so eventually it became shelved, a cold case.

This bit interests me re MBM because of the ground searches conducted by the GNR et all in the days after MBM went missing.

Roghly a year or so after the man in England went missing, the police called in a cold case/missing person expert and tried again.  The expert conducted many diligencies.  To cut to the chase he brought in cadaver dogs to assist in a fresh ground search.

There were two alerts.  Both were checked.  Both had found genuine cadavers, but they were confirmed as animal cadavers.  Hence my original question.  And my interest in cadaver dogs.

The dogs never found the missing person.  His body was found when a passer-by noticed a foot sticking out of undergrowth.  And that explains my curiousity about how a body would decompose if on the surface of the ground in the Algarve.  No one saw unusual insect or predator behaviour around the man's corpse.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: kizzy on May 04, 2019, 01:05:27 PM
I asked what the dogs actually do, not what Grime said they did.  So the answer is NOT what Grime said they did.

I'm a fan of true doggie deployments, so here's one for the forum.

In England, a man went missing.  The police conducted an extensive ground search in the area, particularly focusing on where he wast last seen and the route he was likely to have taken on his walk home.  They found nothing, so eventually it became shelved, a cold case.

This bit interests me re MBM because of the ground searches conducted by the GNR et all in the days after MBM went missing.

Roghly a year or so after the man in England went missing, the police called in a cold case/missing person expert and tried again.  The expert conducted many diligencies.  To cut to the chase he brought in cadaver dogs to assist in a fresh ground search.

There were two alerts.  Both were checked.  Both had found genuine cadavers, but they were confirmed as animal cadavers.  Hence my original question.  And my interest in cadaver dogs.

The dogs never found the missing person.  His body was found when a passer-by noticed a foot sticking out of undergrowth.  And that explains my curiousity about how a body would decompose if on the surface of the ground in the Algarve.  No one saw unusual insect or predator behaviour around the man's corpse.


Just in case Sil - you missed my post on previouse page as we posted at same time apologies if you read it



When we first heaved up around here, that is what my beloved did.  And the car boot stank as a result.  Since then, I have walked our rubbish to the nearest bin on a frequent basis, which has solved the problem.




Just out of curiosity - did you have to leave the boot open day and night.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 04, 2019, 01:11:45 PM
I asked what the dogs actually do, not what Grime said they did.  So the answer is NOT what Grime said they did.

I'm a fan of true doggie deployments, so here's one for the forum.

In England, a man went missing.  The police conducted an extensive ground search in the area, particularly focusing on where he wast last seen and the route he was likely to have taken on his walk home.  They found nothing, so eventually it became shelved, a cold case.

This bit interests me re MBM because of the ground searches conducted by the GNR et all in the days after MBM went missing.

Roghly a year or so after the man in England went missing, the police called in a cold case/missing person expert and tried again.  The expert conducted many diligencies.  To cut to the chase he brought in cadaver dogs to assist in a fresh ground search.

There were two alerts.  Both were checked.  Both had found genuine cadavers, but they were confirmed as animal cadavers.  Hence my original question.  And my interest in cadaver dogs.

The dogs never found the missing person.  His body was found when a passer-by noticed a foot sticking out of undergrowth.  And that explains my curiousity about how a body would decompose if on the surface of the ground in the Algarve.  No one saw unusual insect or predator behaviour around the man's corpse.

Grime trained the dogs so I think he knows what they do.   Investigators direct what/where to search i.e. Mark Harrison. They are trained to find the source of the scent then alert. Eddie was chasing the scent around the car park but he was not barking and alerting - he did that when he was sure on the source of the scent i.e. the hire car was the source of the scent. Keela finds human blood. The scent is how she can detect the smell even after cleaning operations.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 04, 2019, 01:14:01 PM
I asked what the dogs actually do, not what Grime said they did.  So the answer is NOT what Grime said they did.

I'm a fan of true doggie deployments, so here's one for the forum.

In England, a man went missing.  The police conducted an extensive ground search in the area, particularly focusing on where he wast last seen and the route he was likely to have taken on his walk home.  They found nothing, so eventually it became shelved, a cold case.

This bit interests me re MBM because of the ground searches conducted by the GNR et all in the days after MBM went missing.

Roghly a year or so after the man in England went missing, the police called in a cold case/missing person expert and tried again.  The expert conducted many diligencies.  To cut to the chase he brought in cadaver dogs to assist in a fresh ground search.

There were two alerts.  Both were checked.  Both had found genuine cadavers, but they were confirmed as animal cadavers.  Hence my original question.  And my interest in cadaver dogs.

The dogs never found the missing person.  His body was found when a passer-by noticed a foot sticking out of undergrowth.  And that explains my curiousity about how a body would decompose if on the surface of the ground in the Algarve.  No one saw unusual insect or predator behaviour around the man's corpse.

Did the dogs search that  area and miss the body, or did they not search near that particular spot ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 04, 2019, 01:16:35 PM
Eddie crossed a river himself to find Harron's body. Eddie found Bob Rose. Morse was young and present but Eddie found the body.

"Mr Grime told prosecutor Alex Prentice QC that one of the dogs, Eddie, who is trained to detect dead bodies, reacted when he was taken to sand dunes at Sty Wick, on June 24, last year.

He said: "I noticed a change in his behaviour. As soon as he got into the bottom of the scooped out sand dune he identified one spot.

"His normal reaction is to bark. On this occasion he started to dig, which I've never seen him do before. As soon as he started to dig I called him back."

The jury heard that a thin metal probe was then put into the spot Eddie indicated before a forensic anthropolist was called in to excavate the crime scene.

The jury was told that a body was found at the spot where Eddie had indicated." The Orcadian February 16th 2010
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 04, 2019, 01:21:16 PM

When we first heaved up around here, that is what my beloved did.  And the car boot stank as a result.  Since then, I have walked our rubbish to the nearest bin on a frequent basis, which has solved the problem.



Just out of curiosity - did you have to leave the boot open day and night.

With all that went on also burglars etc - surely the mcns would have known by then it wasn't a safe thing to do.

Or was it a safe place after all imo

I can't remember, because it wasn't significant at that time.

When we moved to Monte Lemos, right on the northern extreme, my beloved started off by insisting the drive gates were closed with every out and in trip.  A bit of a pain in the rear as the gates were manual.

They also did not lock, so anyone could have opened them.  Plus the rear boundary was a flimsy wire fence anyone could have got over or through. So after a while, we left the gates open 24/7, apart from holidays elsewhere.

Where we are now, the drive gate is also manual, also a pain.  Sometimes it gets left open.  Our neighbours are strong on advising us not to do this.  We get gypsies here.  And in Portugal gypsies are perceived as getting up to more than mischief.

We now have a car that is nearly 20 years old.  We frequently leave it unlocked.  Our thinking is that if someone is someone is so desperate that he wants an old tub, we are not going to pay for a smashed window or a forced lock.

So far, all we have suffered with the car is additional dents and scrapes inflicted in car parks, with the perpetrator making away successfully.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 04, 2019, 01:25:54 PM
Eddie crossed a river himself to find Harron's body. Eddie found Bob Rose. Morse was young and present but Eddie found the body.

"Mr Grime told prosecutor Alex Prentice QC that one of the dogs, Eddie, who is trained to detect dead bodies, reacted when he was taken to sand dunes at Sty Wick, on June 24, last year.

He said: "I noticed a change in his behaviour. As soon as he got into the bottom of the scooped out sand dune he identified one spot.

"His normal reaction is to bark. On this occasion he started to dig, which I've never seen him do before. As soon as he started to dig I called him back."

The jury heard that a thin metal probe was then put into the spot Eddie indicated before a forensic anthropolist was called in to excavate the crime scene.

The jury was told that a body was found at the spot where Eddie had indicated." The Orcadian February 16th 2010
So, if I understand this correctly, Eddie found a corpse under a sand dune?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 04, 2019, 01:27:31 PM
So, if I understand this correctly, Eddie found a corpse under a sand dune?

After the bloke who buried it told The Police where to look.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 04, 2019, 01:29:34 PM
Did the dogs search that  area and miss the body, or did they not search near that particular spot ?

It's a good question.  The short answer is, I don't know.

Equally, I don't know enough about the location to state whether it was searched the first time round, or whether there were frequent passers-by.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 04, 2019, 01:32:51 PM
After the bloke you buried it told The Police where to look.
But surely all of these searches start with 'an area'? A baggage carousel, a car park, a bombed building, a patch of scrubland....
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 04, 2019, 01:34:39 PM
So, if I understand this correctly, Eddie found a corpse under a sand dune?

As I understand... One in six years
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 04, 2019, 01:37:03 PM
But surely all of these searches start with 'an area'? A baggage carousel, a car park, a bombed building, a patch of scrubland....

Absolutely.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 04, 2019, 01:38:13 PM
After the bloke who buried it told The Police where to look.


Theres a body there now see if you can find it,so training was ongoing.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 04, 2019, 01:42:40 PM
After the bloke who buried it told The Police where to look.

And you know where police should first look without anyone telling them. The actual crime scene and as soon as Eddie entered it his behaviour changed!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 04, 2019, 01:43:04 PM
As I understand... One in six years
You try finding one body in 6 years under a sand dune, using just your hooter.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 04, 2019, 02:07:56 PM
You try finding one body in 6 years under a sand dune, using just your hooter.

I think if i ws employed with that record I wouldnt have a job for 6 years...The serious point im making is from what I have read teh dogs abilities have been vastly overstated ...why......someone who was retiring wanted to enhance his CV.....it cn be a very profitable business...lenny harper was very impressed with grime ..paid him a fortune...plus luxury hotel...what did the dogs achieve in Jersey...absolutely nothing
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 04, 2019, 02:19:18 PM
One body is a lie Davel! Harron, Collier, Amanda Edwards.

"A no-fly zone was put in place and members of the Major Crime and Missing Persons Bureau in Hampshire, who played an important role in the Soham murder investigation, and a sniffer dog from South Yorkshire police, were brought in.

Shortly after 1pm the dog was reported to have started barking, giving rise to speculation that a body had been found."

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2004/apr/17/ukcrime

AMANDA EDWARDS

A missing person abducted by her ex-boyfriend.
Intelligence suggested that her ex-boyfriend had taken her to his house.
A search of the house resulted in small blood stains being recovered.
A search of nearby waste land identified a mattress. Checks revealed it came from the house.
The suspect, a builder, was in possession of a van. This was searched and the dog alerted to a 'wacker plate', spirit level, and shovel.
A site was identified where the suspect had been working. The EVRD then located
the body deposition site in an area of a garage base that had been prepared by the suspect. He had returned with the dead girl, dug a grave in the centre, placed the body in the hole, replaced the spoil and then used the shovel, wacker plate and spirit level to return the ground to its original state.
Forensic scientists were unable to confirm using chemical analysis.

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 04, 2019, 02:30:43 PM
I think if i ws employed with that record I wouldnt have a job for 6 years...The serious point im making is from what I have read teh dogs abilities have been vastly overstated ...why......someone who was retiring wanted to enhance his CV.....it cn be a very profitable business...lenny harper was very impressed with grime ..paid him a fortune...plus luxury hotel...what did the dogs achieve in Jersey...absolutely nothing
Interesting theory. How about being hoisted by your own petard? What would this desperate, penniless man do if his dogs had found nothing? He'd be professionally jiggered. As it is, he's generally viewed as a foremost proponent in his field and is quite in demand as a result.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 04, 2019, 02:32:48 PM
Interesting theory. How about being hoisted by your own petard? What would this desperate, penniless man do if his dogs had found nothing? He'd be professionally jiggered. As it is, he's generally viewed as a foremost proponent in his field and is quite in demand as a result.

could you provide a cite and source for your statement.....not including Grime himself
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 04, 2019, 02:49:33 PM
could you provide a cite and source for your statement.....not including Grime himself
Yes, as soon as you provide one for your contention that he was only there to make a living post retirement.
Attacking the post, never the point. Go on, give it a go.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 04, 2019, 02:53:45 PM
Yes, as soon as you provide one for your contention that he was only there to make a living post retirement.
Attacking the post, never the point. Go on, give it a go.

I actually do   ...but I doubt the mods would allow it...from someone who claims to know him professionally....is it true...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 04, 2019, 02:57:14 PM
Yes, as soon as you provide one for your contention that he was only there to make a living post retirement.
Attacking the post, never the point. Go on, give it a go.

are you aware that grime used the video from pdl in a sales pitch to get the jersey job
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 04, 2019, 04:41:13 PM
I actually do   ...but I doubt the mods would allow it...from someone who claims to know him professionally....is it true...

I think I know which one you refer to.  In my innocent early days on the forum I mentioned the name and was fried for my pains.
I for one would have to remove any reference based on that knowledge.
He knew his stuff but did not have the courage of his conviction by 'outing' himself into the public domain while claiming personal knowledge ... just not acceptable on a fact verifiable forum.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 04, 2019, 08:04:53 PM
As I understand... One in six years
Well it is a rare thing to find a dead body that is hidden.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 04, 2019, 08:16:19 PM
Well it is a rare thing to find a dead body that is hidden.

THere are  alot of claims about how wonderful these two dogs are...how valuable they are...so where is the evidence...where are the sussess stories in all the criminals they helped bring to trial...what we do know is the only cases we have details of....luz and jersey they found nothing that has been of any value
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 04, 2019, 08:17:32 PM
Well it is a rare thing to find a dead body that is hidden.

shouldnt that be rather straightforward for an Enhanced Victim Recovery dog

....from Sky news 2011
Police sniffer dogs used to find missing people and dead bodies "urgently" need better training and monitoring, according to an official report.

The Government's National Policing Improvement Agency (NPIA) said specialist victim recovery dogs are not trained to approved standards, with no way of gauging their competence.

The NPIA reviewed the use of the specialist sniffer dogs two years ago, but its report has only now surfaced following a request by Sky News.

"There is no consistency in what the dogs can do and how it is done," the report states.

"Furthermore, there is no national standard for accrediting dogs and handlers or record keeping of the success rate they achieve."


Advertisement
The report added the dogs, which are trained to detect the smell of dead bodies, have "the potential to cause complications in an inquiry".


"There is an urgent need to have national policy on their training, accreditation and deployment," it concluded.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: kizzy on May 05, 2019, 08:56:17 AM
are you aware that grime used the video from pdl in a sales pitch to get the jersey job



Well in my opinion - he used the video as he thought the dogs were spot on.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 05, 2019, 09:12:32 AM
Sky have made a bit of a boo boo there. If there is no record keeping of the dog's success rate how can they possibly know there is no consistency in what the dogs can do, eh?

No records.. No record if consistency... The dogs have been presented as basically infallible... Where's the evidence
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 05, 2019, 09:26:55 AM
The point I'm making, if they were not keeping records of the success rate the dogs achieve, how could they possibly conclude anything about their consistency?

Valid criticisms, if true,  I agree... but without records to reference, it seems impossible to determine anything about the consistency of what the dogs can do. Without records, the dog's could have been as consistent as hell for all anyone knows.

So we don't know how consistent they are... So all these posters claiming if keela alerts blood must be present are talking rubbish
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 05, 2019, 09:29:40 AM
shouldnt that be rather straightforward for an Enhanced Victim Recovery dog

....from Sky news 2011
Police sniffer dogs used to find missing people and dead bodies "urgently" need better training and monitoring, according to an official report.

The Government's National Policing Improvement Agency (NPIA) said specialist victim recovery dogs are not trained to approved standards, with no way of gauging their competence.

The NPIA reviewed the use of the specialist sniffer dogs two years ago, but its report has only now surfaced following a request by Sky News.

"There is no consistency in what the dogs can do and how it is done," the report states.

"Furthermore, there is no national standard for accrediting dogs and handlers or record keeping of the success rate they achieve."


Advertisement
The report added the dogs, which are trained to detect the smell of dead bodies, have "the potential to cause complications in an inquiry".


"There is an urgent need to have national policy on their training, accreditation and deployment," it concluded.

I thought ACPO, which tests and licences police dogs, was a national body. Were the NPIA criticising the standards they set and tested to?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 05, 2019, 09:32:02 AM
I thought ACPO, which tests and licences police dogs, was a national body. Were the NPIA criticising the standards they set and tested to?

Does ACPO test individual dogs... Do you have a cite
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 05, 2019, 09:44:11 AM
Exactly... and we have all these others posters claiming how crap (I OK'd the use of crap with John) the dogs are.... One things for certain... despite being given countless opportunities to choose to alert at other locations, the dogs in the McCann case CONSISTENTLY chose to alert to locations that were all associated with the family of the one missing child.

That's a funny old example of consistency that only fools could ignore imo.

I've explained why the dogs only alerted to things McCann... Quoting the police files.. I've no intention of doing it again..
And I've never said the dogs are crap..an never seen then described SD crap... Stop posting rubbish
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 05, 2019, 09:54:26 AM
Don't start getting cheeky wee man, hit a nerve have I. I never said Davel said they were crap, did I?
An alive Madeleine McCann is the only example that will convince me that your so called explanations weren't rubbish. Didn't stop you posting them though did it?

I couldn't care if you are never convinced... Some of us understand the alerts and some dont..

Wee man my Rs... Your arrogance is only surpassed by your ignorance
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 05, 2019, 10:01:48 AM
Some think they understand the alerts but none of them have proved they can.
 

I can prove I do...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 05, 2019, 10:08:44 AM

Can we cut the added Insults please.  Editing them out is a pain.  So I might be forced to Delete the Whole Comment.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 05, 2019, 10:10:19 AM
Wee man is a term applied to those I consider my friends. Do you want me to edit it out? I certainly didn't add it to offend you
I can't help the fact I'm Glaswegian, Eastend of, born and bred.

If you want to turn on me fair enough but I will always remember the support you gave me when I was falsely accused of calling someone a cow.

Back to you?

Sorry... It's considered an insult where I am...
According to the experts... Grime etc... The dogs point to where investigors... Should look fir evidence but are not evidence in themself... I do blame Grime for allowing the digs abilities to be totally misrepresented... But there again he had a business to promote
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 05, 2019, 10:10:38 AM
Does ACPO test individual dogs... Do you have a cite

ACPO is in charge.

https://www.essex.police.uk/getmedia/7fcd05bf-0f91-4954-b7ea-f697377ab9f0/I0200-Policy-Dogs.pdf
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 05, 2019, 10:13:01 AM
ACPO is in charge.

https://www.essex.police.uk/getmedia/7fcd05bf-0f91-4954-b7ea-f697377ab9f0/I0200-Policy-Dogs.pdf

At a quick glance it doesn't mention testing so you have failed to provide a cite
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 05, 2019, 10:19:32 AM
Let's start at the beginning so I know what you are talking about.
What do you think you understand about the dog alerts?

It isnt what I understand its what the experts say...from my post above..

According to the experts... Grime etc... The dogs point to where investigors... Should look for evidence but are not evidence in themself... I do blame Grime for allowing the digs abilities to be totally misrepresented... But there again he had a business to promote...

the cadaver alerts are not evidence that maddie died in the apartment.....that is a fact...sceptics think they are
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 05, 2019, 10:36:41 AM
Ah... right you mean they are not evidence that can be used in court. I think all of us understands that.
Whether you like it or not it is evidence that people can use to form an opinion though. I find the consistency of the alerts particularly telling in forming my opinion. I know they don't prove Madeleine is dead but they do convince me she is, given one else had died in the apartment or in Kate's trousers. I would love for nothing more than an alive Madeleine McCann to prove my opinion is wrong.

not evidence...full stop...harrison went further...saying ...no inferences can be drawn from the alerts..

there is no time for death and cadaverine to form..between 8.30 and 10...why do you think SY and teh PJ are ignoring them
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 05, 2019, 10:38:47 AM
not evidence...full stop...harrison went further...saying ...no inferences can be drawn from the alerts..

there is no time for death and cadaverine to form..between 8.30 and 10...why do you think SY and teh PJ are ignoring them
Not true. Who was the last dude to see her alive? Payne? And his wholly convincing and totally corroborative account of 'visiting' Kate. So who knows what that timeline is?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 05, 2019, 10:43:20 AM
You sound like a Sargeant Major from the thought police, It IS evidence that I can consider... full stop.
I don't care what Harrison says... I'm drawing inferences and that's all there is to it.

you can draw all the incorrect inferences you like...but yu will arrive at an incorrect answer
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 05, 2019, 10:43:46 AM
Reference from another Thread regarding Insults also applies here and elsewhere.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 05, 2019, 10:56:28 AM
That's the bit you can't prove, An alive Madeleine McCann would prove it though.

no it wouldnt.......there was a case in yorkshire where this happened...the girl turned up alive...excuses were madeby the dog team
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 05, 2019, 11:05:50 AM
It would prove my opinion is wrong because I'm convinced the alerts were to Madeleine McCann's cadaver.
If she turns up alive that blows that notion right out the water, don't you think?
Come on now, monkey, you know that sort of logic doesn't work both ways here.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 05, 2019, 11:06:58 AM
That is only one version. There is another, 5pm version and Gerry's there with Kate.

He can explain all about that at Surgical Mask Mans trial. 

Kate was seen running along the beach towards Rocha Negra around that time - 5pm on 3 May 2007. She also likes to write about "Rocha Negra" in her book.

That time is unusual in DP's questionnaire when he was at the beach and on CCTV at the Paraiso restaurant.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 05, 2019, 11:08:28 AM
That is only one version. There is another, 5pm version and Gerry's there with Kate.

He can explain all about that at Surgical Mask Mans trial.

Why?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 05, 2019, 11:20:16 AM
I'm presuming they didn't completely change the visit to 6.30 for nothing.
David visit's Kate but it's Gerry who was at the tennis courts who is the first to remember it.

And Davie boy checking the kids on the Wednesday night?
I wonder what gave our Gerry that idea!

IMO 3 are involved in Maddy's disappearance and all need closely looking at! The contradictions connect to those 3 hiding important facts.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 05, 2019, 11:23:16 AM
Why not?

Because it won't be needed.

I despair sometimes.  So many people are totally ignorant of The Law.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 05, 2019, 11:24:55 AM
Which law are you talking about ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 05, 2019, 11:49:19 AM
Which law are you talking about ?

Any old Law.

Whoops, I forgot.  Portuguese Law is different.  If you get put On Trial in Portugal you are definitely Guilty, and they don't need Witnesses to prove either way.  Forget Forensics or the lack of.  Portugal doesn't understand that, or even the need of.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 05, 2019, 12:09:33 PM
Are you saying Amaral's conviction is unsafe?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 05, 2019, 12:18:08 PM
Are you saying Amaral's conviction is unsafe?

The Evidence against Amaral was written and signed by his own hand.  So not much room for doubt.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 05, 2019, 12:37:48 PM
I think I know which one you refer to.  In my innocent early days on the forum I mentioned the name and was fried for my pains.
I for one would have to remove any reference based on that knowledge.
He knew his stuff but did not have the courage of his conviction by 'outing' himself into the public domain while claiming personal knowledge ... just not acceptable on a fact verifiable forum.

Was any proof ever presented to the forum that this gentleman was who he said he was or had any actual connection to Grime ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 05, 2019, 12:59:22 PM
Ah... right you mean they are not evidence that can be used in court. I think all of us understands that.
Whether you like it or not it is evidence that people can use to form an opinion though. I find the consistency of the alerts particularly telling in forming my opinion. I know they don't prove Madeleine is dead but they do convince me she is, given one else had died in the apartment or in Kate's trousers. I would love for nothing more than an alive Madeleine McCann to prove my opinion is wrong.

Do you know that Kate wore the checked trousers a few days after Madeleine went missing?   So unless she washed and dried them [which I doubt very much judging by the state she was in]   did she wear the very same trousers that had been contaminated with cadaver scent,  being in contact with a dead Madeleine?

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 05, 2019, 01:15:44 PM
The point I'm making, if they were not keeping records of the success rate the dogs achieve, how could they possibly conclude anything about their consistency?

Valid criticisms, if true,  I agree... but without records to reference, it seems impossible to determine anything about the consistency of what the dogs can do. Without records, the dog's could have been as consistent as hell for all anyone knows.

If this is the report I remember, the issue was not a lack of records, but that dogs trained by differing police forces were trained and tested to differing standards.  This was causing an issue where dogs from different police forces were brought in to assist in a single investigation.  Because the handlers and dogs would then approach the same task in different ways.

This in turn would raise issues as to whether the work could be signed off as satisfactory by the SIO.

If you think it through, Eddie and Keela were deployed before such standards were introduced, while I believe Tito  and Muzzy were deployed after standardisation was recommended.

If this is correct, there is a distinct possibility that DCI Andy Redwood would have a better understanding of what dog and handler can do than Gonçalo Amaral or Paulo Rebelo.

Please be aware I have not researched this aspect of police dogs in any great detail.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 05, 2019, 01:49:25 PM
ACPO is in charge.

https://www.essex.police.uk/getmedia/7fcd05bf-0f91-4954-b7ea-f697377ab9f0/I0200-Policy-Dogs.pdf

A most informative read.   *&(+(+
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 05, 2019, 02:30:54 PM
If this is the report I remember, the issue was not a lack of records, but that dogs trained by differing police forces were trained and tested to differing standards.  This was causing an issue where dogs from different police forces were brought in to assist in a single investigation.  Because the handlers and dogs would then approach the same task in different ways.

This in turn would raise issues as to whether the work could be signed off as satisfactory by the SIO.

If you think it through, Eddie and Keela were deployed before such standards were introduced, while I believe Tito  and Muzzy were deployed after standardisation was recommended.

If this is correct, there is a distinct possibility that DCI Andy Redwood would have a better understanding of what dog and handler can do than Gonçalo Amaral or Paulo Rebelo.

Please be aware I have not researched this aspect of police dogs in any great detail.

Police dogs are licensed and assessed through the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO). The Police Dogs Manual of Guidance is provided by the ACPO working group who regulate all working dogs within the UK’s police forces.

Martin Grime was a UK ACPO training instructor so what other standards are you going on about regarding Eddie and Keela?

I am the Special Advisor to The U.S. Department of Justice, Federal Bureau
of Investigation, in relation to their Canine Forensic Program.

I am a U.K.A.C.P.O. (Association of Chief Police Officers, England and Wales)
accredited police dog training instructor. I am a Subject Matter Expert in
forensic canine search and on the N.P.I.A. (National Policing Improvement
Agency) Expert Advisers database.

I advise Domestic and International Law enforcement agencies on the
operational deployment of Police Dogs in the role of Homicide investigation.


https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 05, 2019, 02:33:51 PM
Police dogs are licensed and assessed through the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO). The Police Dogs Manual of Guidance is provided by the ACPO working group who regulate all working dogs within the UK’s police forces.

Martin Grime was a UK ACPO training instructor so what other standards are you going on about regarding Eddie and Keela?

I am the Special Advisor to The U.S. Department of Justice, Federal Bureau
of Investigation, in relation to their Canine Forensic Program.

I am a U.K.A.C.P.O. (Association of Chief Police Officers, England and Wales)
accredited police dog training instructor. I am a Subject Matter Expert in
forensic canine search and on the N.P.I.A. (National Policing Improvement
Agency) Expert Advisers database.

I advise Domestic and International Law enforcement agencies on the
operational deployment of Police Dogs in the role of Homicide investigation.

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

The special advisor to FBI...no independent corroboration.....THE special advisor....
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 05, 2019, 02:38:45 PM
The special advisor to FBI...no independent corroboration.....THE special advisor....

Are you saying that he is lying?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 05, 2019, 02:50:55 PM
Police dogs are licensed and assessed through the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO). The Police Dogs Manual of Guidance is provided by the ACPO working group who regulate all working dogs within the UK’s police forces.

Martin Grime was a UK ACPO training instructor so what other standards are you going on about regarding Eddie and Keela?

I am the Special Advisor to The U.S. Department of Justice, Federal Bureau
of Investigation, in relation to their Canine Forensic Program.

I am a U.K.A.C.P.O. (Association of Chief Police Officers, England and Wales)
accredited police dog training instructor. I am a Subject Matter Expert in
forensic canine search and on the N.P.I.A. (National Policing Improvement
Agency) Expert Advisers database.

I advise Domestic and International Law enforcement agencies on the
operational deployment of Police Dogs in the role of Homicide investigation.


https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

The issue is the date at which such standards were introduced.  The Essex document makes it clear such requirements were not enforced in Essex police force until October 2018.

So what ACPO requirements were in situ in August 2007?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 05, 2019, 03:03:04 PM
The special advisor to FBI...no independent corroboration.....THE special advisor....

The UK's special advisor I expect.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 05, 2019, 03:37:34 PM
From a 187 page report I have by Martin Grime. Eddie also alerted to Prout's vehicle.

(https://i.ibb.co/TrVYwqC/1557066682285.jpg)
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 05, 2019, 05:54:41 PM
There seems to be very little connection to Mark Saunokonoko's podcast in the posts. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 05, 2019, 06:05:01 PM
I may add, you don't know if and when they moved the body. The car began to stink at the end of July. Or should I call it the shity nappy cupboard.

Apparently the place was a wash with pigs blood. and Kate wearing trousers covered in cadaver scent.  @)(++(*

I am tempted to type you cou;dn't make it up but  the supporters can and do .oh such fun!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 05, 2019, 06:13:54 PM
Apparently the place was a wash with pigs blood. and Kate wearing trousers covered in cadaver scent.  @)(++(*

I am tempted to type you cou;dn't make it up but  the supporters can and do .oh such fun!
That goes to show how the dogs could react correctly to cadaverine.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 05, 2019, 10:20:00 PM
Was any proof ever presented to the forum that this gentleman was who he said he was or had any actual connection to Grime ?

What is it you affect not to understand about ...

"He knew his stuff but did not have the courage of his conviction by 'outing' himself into the public domain while claiming personal knowledge ... just not acceptable on a fact verifiable forum."

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10605.msg525515#msg525515
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 06, 2019, 12:36:49 AM
What is it you affect not to understand about ...

"He knew his stuff but did not have the courage of his conviction by 'outing' himself into the public domain while claiming personal knowledge ... just not acceptable on a fact verifiable forum."

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10605.msg525515#msg525515

So that will be a no then.

What was it Mark Twain said....oh yes....It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 06, 2019, 01:47:34 AM
So that will be a no then.

What was it Mark Twain said....oh yes....It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.
It is a b....r when it dawns.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 06, 2019, 08:19:50 AM
Apparently the place was a wash with pigs blood. and Kate wearing trousers covered in cadaver scent.  @)(++(*

I am tempted to type you cou;dn't make it up but  the supporters can and do .oh such fun!


Now you are being ridiculous.   Kate was wearing those checked trousers when she made the appeal to the abductor,  don't you think she would have disposed of them if she had been in contact with Madeleine whilst wearing them?


Can you prove that the fertiliser used on the garden did not contain pig blood?   If not I don't think you are in a position to poke fun.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 06, 2019, 09:59:38 AM

Now you are being ridiculous.   Kate was wearing those checked trousers when she made the appeal to the abductor,  don't you think she would have disposed of them if she had been in contact with Madeleine whilst wearing them?


Can you prove that the fertiliser used on the garden did not contain pig blood?   If not I don't think you are in a position to poke fun.

Which alert(s) were triggered by fertiliser in your opinion?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 06, 2019, 11:07:38 AM

Now you are being ridiculous.   Kate was wearing those checked trousers when she made the appeal to the abductor,  don't you think she would have disposed of them if she had been in contact with Madeleine whilst wearing them?


Can you prove that the fertiliser used on the garden did not contain pig blood?   If not I don't think you are in a position to poke fun.

And how would that get on certain items of clothing? Were they lying down in the garden bed? Do you have any evidence to support it?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 06, 2019, 11:36:38 AM
So that will be a no then.

What was it Mark Twain said....oh yes....It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.

(Was any proof ever presented to the forum that this gentleman was who he said he was or had any actual connection to Grime ?) You asked and answered a question which didn't require to be asked in the first instance
Snip
He knew his stuff but did not have the courage of his conviction by 'outing' himself into the public domain while claiming personal knowledge ... just not acceptable on a fact verifiable forum.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10605.msg525515#msg525515
That translates as ... an anonymous poster made specific claims which were unacceptable on this forum.

Perhaps something got lost in translation for you from the information in my original post that you affected not to understand.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 06, 2019, 11:42:03 AM
(Was any proof ever presented to the forum that this gentleman was who he said he was or had any actual connection to Grime ?) You asked and answered a question which didn't require to be asked in the first instance
Snip
He knew his stuff but did not have the courage of his conviction by 'outing' himself into the public domain while claiming personal knowledge ... just not acceptable on a fact verifiable forum.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10605.msg525515#msg525515
That translates as ... an anonymous poster made specific claims which were unacceptable on this forum.

Perhaps something got lost in translation for you from the information in my original post that you affected not to understand.

I think you read it and make your own judgement.... It certainly  raises questions... The special advisor to the FBI canine programme was his claim... There were four in the FBI team... With Rex Stockton being team leader and grime seemingly just one of the team..
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 06, 2019, 11:59:28 AM
(Was any proof ever presented to the forum that this gentleman was who he said he was or had any actual connection to Grime ?) You asked and answered a question which didn't require to be asked in the first instance
Snip
He knew his stuff but did not have the courage of his conviction by 'outing' himself into the public domain while claiming personal knowledge ... just not acceptable on a fact verifiable forum.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10605.msg525515#msg525515
That translates as ... an anonymous poster made specific claims which were unacceptable on this forum.

Perhaps something got lost in translation for you from the information in my original post that you affected not to understand.

I’d change my MO if I was you Brietta it is becoming rather dull. I understood exactly what you posted but let’s cut to the chase. The forum was never presented....short of ‘he knew his stuff’ which in context actually means he agreed with my point of view...with any verification that he was who he claimed to be or, indeed, that he had any connection to Grime. That you chose to believe him is your prerogative however many of us need more proof than being told what we want to hear..... some of us are picky like that.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 06, 2019, 12:17:31 PM
I’d change my MO if I was you Brietta it is becoming rather dull. I understood exactly what you posted but let’s cut to the chase. The forum was never presented....short of ‘he knew his stuff’ which in context actually means he agreed with my point of view...with any verification that he was who he claimed to be or, indeed, that he had any connection to Grime. That you chose to believe him is your prerogative however many of us need more proof than being told what we want to hear..... some of us are picky like that.
According to you Lift Consulting are behind the latest news stories coming out of Portugal.  Can we have your proof please, seeing as how you’re such a stickler for the truth? 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 06, 2019, 12:19:58 PM
I’d change my MO if I was you Brietta it is becoming rather dull. I understood exactly what you posted but let’s cut to the chase. The forum was never presented....short of ‘he knew his stuff’ which in context actually means he agreed with my point of view...with any verification that he was who he claimed to be or, indeed, that he had any connection to Grime. That you chose to believe him is your prerogative however many of us need more proof than being told what we want to hear..... some of us are picky like that.

Again you appear to be putting words in my mouth ... "That you chose to believe him  ... " requires a cite.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 06, 2019, 02:30:24 PM
Again you appear to be putting words in my mouth ... "That you chose to believe him  ... " requires a cite.

So you don’t believe him. Apologies I thought you did.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 06, 2019, 03:15:10 PM
I think you read it and make your own judgement.... It certainly  raises questions... The special advisor to the FBI canine programme was his claim... There were four in the FBI team... With Rex Stockton being team leader and grime seemingly just one of the team..

Of course he was part of the team.

At trial, FBI Canine Program Manager Rex Stockham testified as an expert in forensic canine operation. Stockham testified about the process of training and testing victim recovery dogs. Stockham’s protocol called for regular single- and double-blind testing of dogs throughout their working lives. Stockham’s program had three full-time handlers in its program, including Martin Grime. Stockham testified that he had tested Morse and Keela, Grime’s dogs, and that both dogs had accuracy ratings in the high 90 percent range. Stockham testified that dogs have been able to smell the odor of decomposition as soon as 2 hours after a victim’s death, or years after a victim’s burial.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 06, 2019, 03:29:02 PM
So you don’t believe him. Apologies I thought you did.
Just stop putting words in my mouth and apologising for doing so won't be necessary.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 06, 2019, 04:05:17 PM
The FBI worked with Grime cuz his dogs were the best and very reliable! Eddie and Keela first went to the FBI body farm and were tested. Both dogs passed with flying colours. This was prior to the McCann case. Incredibly NOT unreliable!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 06, 2019, 04:12:00 PM
The FBI worked with Grime cuz his dogs were the best and very reliable! Eddie and Keela first went to the FBI body farm and were tested. Both dogs passed with flying colours. This was prior to the McCann case. Incredibly NOT unreliable!

Do you have a cite for tested at the body farm and passed with flying colours... Mind you... The whole place must stink

The dogs are reliable at finding cadavers.... The alerts themselves are not reliable from what I have learnt
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 06, 2019, 04:15:27 PM
Of course he was part of the team.

At trial, FBI Canine Program Manager Rex Stockham testified as an expert in forensic canine operation. Stockham testified about the process of training and testing victim recovery dogs. Stockham’s protocol called for regular single- and double-blind testing of dogs throughout their working lives. Stockham’s program had three full-time handlers in its program, including Martin Grime. Stockham testified that he had tested Morse and Keela, Grime’s dogs, and that both dogs had accuracy ratings in the high 90 percent range. Stockham testified that dogs have been able to smell the odor of decomposition as soon as 2 hours after a victim’s death, or years after a victim’s burial.

As soon as two hours after victims death, ...According to Stockham... So no time for Maddie to die in the apartment and produce cadaver odour
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 06, 2019, 04:21:46 PM
As soon as two hours after victims death, ...According to Stockham... So no time for Maddie to die in the apartment and produce cadaver odour

There was plenty of time if Maddie was dead by around 5pm, as I believe she was.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 06, 2019, 04:30:21 PM
There was plenty of time if Maddie was dead by around 5pm, as I believe she was.

I agree death between 8.30 and 10 is impossible... Note to amaral... So if she died earlier why the cover up
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 06, 2019, 04:36:33 PM
I agree death between 8.30 and 10 is impossible... Note to amaral... So if she died earlier why the cover up
 

Depends on how she died.
I'm certain the abduction was staged, therefore I don't believe there was an accident.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 06, 2019, 04:43:31 PM
 

Depends on how she died.
I'm certain the abduction was staged, therefore I don't believe there was an accident.

i think another crazy theory then

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 06, 2019, 04:46:36 PM
i think another crazy theory then

Manslaughter, Infanticide. I don't think it's too far fetched myself.
Seems like as good a reason as any to fake an abduction.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 06, 2019, 04:47:10 PM
There was plenty of time if Maddie was dead by around 5pm, as I believe she was.
Why do you think the police don’t agree with you?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 06, 2019, 04:50:58 PM
Why do you think the police don’t agree with you?

Because they don't know me.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 06, 2019, 04:56:25 PM
Because they don't know me.

I think the idea of an accident is more than abit wacky....after that the ides just get wackier...you might as well say she was abducted by an alien spaceship....I actually think thats more likely than your idea
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 06, 2019, 05:02:43 PM
I think the idea of an accident is more than abit wacky....after that the ides just get wackier...you might as well say she was abducted by an alien spaceship....I actually think thats more likely than your idea
How can we be sure Kate didn't lose her temper & throttle Maddie?
I don't think it's a wacky idea.
She has shown she has a propensity to violence, punching & kicking walls until she was bruised. Parents are known to kill their children.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 06, 2019, 05:04:38 PM
I think the idea of an accident is more than abit wacky....after that the ides just get wackier...you might as well say she was abducted by an alien spaceship....I actually think thats more likely than your idea

Nope.  It explains everything.

It doesn't mean it happened that way.

Could you kindly ground your fleet of alien spaceships?  That one wore thin way back.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 06, 2019, 05:04:45 PM
How can we be sure Kate didn't lose her temper & throttle Maddie?
I don't think it's a wacky idea.
She has shown she has a propensity to violence, punching & kicking walls until she was bruised. Parents are known to kill their children.
Is that what you think happened?  Where did this killing take place?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 06, 2019, 05:06:33 PM
Is that what you think happened?  Where did this killing take place?

It's one possibility & apartment G5A.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 06, 2019, 05:08:09 PM
It's one possibility & apartment G5A.
So who was the child Kate signed out of the creche at 5.30pm?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 06, 2019, 05:11:25 PM
So who was the child Kate signed out of the creche at 5.30pm?

Was it 5.30?
I thought it was just after 5pm.
My mistake. Either way, she had plenty of time to commit the act thereafter.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 06, 2019, 05:15:49 PM
Nope.  It explains everything.

It doesn't mean it happened that way.

Could you kindly ground your fleet of alien spaceships?  That one wore thin way back.

It doesnt for me....for me its more likely than some of the ideas being proposed...where is the evidence against it..

and the accident theory doesnt work from a patholgy viewpoint...the idea of rolling off the sofa ...banging her head and dying is more fiction tahn sclence fiction..tell me how long you think children take to die from head injuries
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 06, 2019, 05:21:14 PM
Was it 5.30?
I thought it was just after 5pm.
My mistake. Either way, she had plenty of time to commit the act thereafter.
So David Payne is in on it, is he?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 06, 2019, 05:23:32 PM
So David Payne is in on it, is he?

How long was he in the apartment for, if he went in at all?
Was it 30 seconds or 30 minutes?
Why such a huge discrepancy?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 06, 2019, 05:24:41 PM
Just stop putting words in my mouth and apologising for doing so won't be necessary.

Apologies, again, but I don’t think I can be blamed for your inability to digest member’s posts.

You said that an anonymous member had claimed a link to Grime and, to paraphrase, didn’t reckon him or his dogs. I asked was his identity ever verified conclusively. You failed to answer but simply referred me to your former post...the he knew his stuff’ one.

Now I know it may be uncomfortable for you to answer but believing a person is who he says he is because ‘he knows his stuff’ when you’re no expert yourself really is rather silly.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 06, 2019, 05:26:28 PM
How long was he in the apartment for, if he went in at all?
Was it 30 seconds or 30 minutes?
Why such a huge discrepancy?

is this one where we need to sk the interpreter
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 06, 2019, 05:28:37 PM
How long was he in the apartment for, if he went in at all?
Was it 30 seconds or 30 minutes?
Why such a huge discrepancy?
So David Payne is in on it is he?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 06, 2019, 05:29:18 PM
is this one where we need to sk the interpreter

Ask the audience,phone a friend,choices,choices.choices.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 06, 2019, 05:31:01 PM
Apologies, again, but I don’t think I can be blamed for your inability to digest member’s posts.

You said that an anonymous member had claimed a link to Grime and, to paraphrase, didn’t reckon him or his dogs. I asked was his identity ever verified conclusively. You failed to answer but simply referred me to your former post...the he knew his stuff’ one.

Now I know it may be uncomfortable for you to answer but believing a person is who he says he is because ‘he knows his stuff’ when you’re no expert yourself really is rather silly.
So when I keep pushing a point with you it’s called “stalking” and you have to resort to putting me on ignore  but when you keep harrassing Brietta that’s perfectly OK?  I see..  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 06, 2019, 05:33:29 PM
Ask the audience,phone a friend,choices,choices.choices.

I believe you missed out "Computer, take away 2 wrong answers".

 8((()*/
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 06, 2019, 05:39:51 PM
So David Payne is in on it is he?

Possibly provided an alibi without knowing all the detail I believe.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 06, 2019, 05:43:33 PM
The FBI worked with Grime cuz his dogs were the best and very reliable! Eddie and Keela first went to the FBI body farm and were tested. Both dogs passed with flying colours. This was prior to the McCann case. Incredibly NOT unreliable!

Neither Eddie or Keela ever went to The Body Farm in America.  You are downright lying now.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 06, 2019, 05:44:51 PM
Possibly provided an alibi without knowing all the detail I believe.

perhaps they were all in on the alien abduction....the X files...that would explain the govt cover up
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 06, 2019, 05:49:52 PM
perhaps they were all in on the alien abduction....the X files...that would explain the govt cover up

I think you'll find that infanticide is slightly more common than alien abduction, if you do some research.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 06, 2019, 05:53:07 PM
I think you'll find that infanticide is slightly more common than alien abduction, if you do some research.

Infanticide only relates to new born infants.  You need to do some research.

And I have had enough of your Libel.  So stop it now.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 06, 2019, 05:54:24 PM
I think you'll find that infanticide is slightly more common than alien abduction, if you do some research.

I dont need to do any research.....infanticide ...when it happens ...there will be tell tale signs in the parents background...perfectly well adjusted parents dont commit infanticide...and then we have the cover up by a group of friends .....not possible....we dont have any figures for alien abduction as the aliens wipe all memory from witnesses and give them new ones....Im still putting alien abduction above infanticide
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 06, 2019, 05:57:08 PM

Awfully sorry.  But I am not having this anymore.  This particular trend will end now.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 06, 2019, 06:31:38 PM
As soon as two hours after victims death, ...According to Stockham... So no time for Maddie to die in the apartment and produce cadaver odour

Only if you believe she was in that tidy bed that night.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 06, 2019, 06:34:12 PM
Possibly provided an alibi without knowing all the detail I believe.
And why would he do that pray tell?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 06, 2019, 06:36:41 PM
Only if you believe she was in that tidy bed that night.

you can beleive and make up what you like...and thats whats happening
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 06, 2019, 06:44:28 PM
And why would he do that pray tell?

Because they needed one.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 06, 2019, 06:45:02 PM
Neither Eddie or Keela ever went to The Body Farm in America.  You are downright lying now.

THE ENGLISH SPECIALIST DOG TEAM
The heat is scorching on this thirtieth day of July 2007 when two Springer Spaniels, Eddie and Keela, get off the British Airways plane, accompanied by their trainer, Martin Grime. An air-conditioned vehicle is waiting to take them to their accommodation. A vet, who will be on hand during their stay, has been brought in to intervene in case of illness or if the dogs get bitten by a snake. Their mission: to find Madeleine’s body and expose those responsible.

Eddie has been involved in a great number of cases, helping the police to resolve a good many riddles, thanks to his sense of smell. Even if the body has been moved, objects the body has touched have been contaminated by its odour, especially porous materials, fabrics, the upholstery in cars, etc. And that odour, Eddie knows how to recognise out of a thousand.

Keela, a scenes of crime specialist, is capable of locating particles of blood even after a place has been cleaned with chemical products or bleach. Sometimes, the residues are so microscopic they are missed by the instruments of the forensic police, as sophicticated as they are, and it’s impossible to harvest them without taking all of what they are on.

Eddie is always the first to be brought onto a site. Once he has discerned the odour that he knows so well, it’s Keela’s turn to go into action, on the lookout for the slightest whiff of blood. The simultaneous presence of the two elements in a given place – blood and cavaver odours – is taken to indicate that a body has been there and that it’s probably there that the death occurred.

The dogs’ CV is impressive. Besides collaborating in hundreds of investigations, they passed the practical tests brilliantly at the FBI’s “Body Farm,” the only place in the world where human cadavers are used to simulate homicide scenarios and concealment of bodies.

The case of Amanda Edwards, reported missing, is also very impressive. The police, who conducted a search of her ex-partner’s home, found small bloodstains there, but no trace of a body. The dog, who was brought in for the examination of the man”s vehicle, alerted to cadaver odour on the tools stored in the boot (a shovel, a level and a compactor). The police went to the building site where the suspect had worked a few days before and discovered the body, buried in a garage. The murderer had made efficient use of his tools to carry out his task. (TOTL)
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 06, 2019, 06:45:52 PM
you can beleive and make up what you like...and thats whats happening

18:30 was kids bath time. Who turned up? 30 minutes gone changed to a few minutes months later. You would be a fool to believe these people.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 06, 2019, 06:47:30 PM
THE ENGLISH SPECIALIST DOG TEAM
The heat is scorching on this thirtieth day of July 2007 when two Springer Spaniels, Eddie and Keela, get off the British Airways plane, accompanied by their trainer, Martin Grime. An air-conditioned vehicle is waiting to take them to their accommodation. A vet, who will be on hand during their stay, has been brought in to intervene in case of illness or if the dogs get bitten by a snake. Their mission: to find Madeleine’s body and expose those responsible.

Eddie has been involved in a great number of cases, helping the police to resolve a good many riddles, thanks to his sense of smell. Even if the body has been moved, objects the body has touched have been contaminated by its odour, especially porous materials, fabrics, the upholstery in cars, etc. And that odour, Eddie knows how to recognise out of a thousand.

Keela, a scenes of crime specialist, is capable of locating particles of blood even after a place has been cleaned with chemical products or bleach. Sometimes, the residues are so microscopic they are missed by the instruments of the forensic police, as sophicticated as they are, and it’s impossible to harvest them without taking all of what they are on.

Eddie is always the first to be brought onto a site. Once he has discerned the odour that he knows so well, it’s Keela’s turn to go into action, on the lookout for the slightest whiff of blood. The simultaneous presence of the two elements in a given place – blood and cavaver odours – is taken to indicate that a body has been there and that it’s probably there that the death occurred.

The dogs’ CV is impressive. Besides collaborating in hundreds of investigations, they passed the practical tests brilliantly at the FBI’s “Body Farm,” the only place in the world where human cadavers are used to simulate homicide scenarios and concealment of bodies.

The case of Amanda Edwards, reported missing, is also very impressive. The police, who conducted a search of her ex-partner’s home, found small bloodstains there, but no trace of a body. The dog, who was brought in for the examination of the man”s vehicle, alerted to cadaver odour on the tools stored in the boot (a shovel, a level and a compactor). The police went to the building site where the suspect had worked a few days before and discovered the body, buried in a garage. The murderer had made efficient use of his tools to carry out his task. (TOTL)

TOTL is not  a reliable cite ...thers too much in it that isnt true....such as eddie found a body under a slab of concrete in jersey
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 06, 2019, 06:48:22 PM
THE ENGLISH SPECIALIST DOG TEAM
The heat is scorching on this thirtieth day of July 2007 when two Springer Spaniels, Eddie and Keela, get off the British Airways plane, accompanied by their trainer, Martin Grime. An air-conditioned vehicle is waiting to take them to their accommodation. A vet, who will be on hand during their stay, has been brought in to intervene in case of illness or if the dogs get bitten by a snake. Their mission: to find Madeleine’s body and expose those responsible.

Eddie has been involved in a great number of cases, helping the police to resolve a good many riddles, thanks to his sense of smell. Even if the body has been moved, objects the body has touched have been contaminated by its odour, especially porous materials, fabrics, the upholstery in cars, etc. And that odour, Eddie knows how to recognise out of a thousand.

Keela, a scenes of crime specialist, is capable of locating particles of blood even after a place has been cleaned with chemical products or bleach. Sometimes, the residues are so microscopic they are missed by the instruments of the forensic police, as sophicticated as they are, and it’s impossible to harvest them without taking all of what they are on.

Eddie is always the first to be brought onto a site. Once he has discerned the odour that he knows so well, it’s Keela’s turn to go into action, on the lookout for the slightest whiff of blood. The simultaneous presence of the two elements in a given place – blood and cavaver odours – is taken to indicate that a body has been there and that it’s probably there that the death occurred.

The dogs’ CV is impressive. Besides collaborating in hundreds of investigations, they passed the practical tests brilliantly at the FBI’s “Body Farm,” the only place in the world where human cadavers are used to simulate homicide scenarios and concealment of bodies.

The case of Amanda Edwards, reported missing, is also very impressive. The police, who conducted a search of her ex-partner’s home, found small bloodstains there, but no trace of a body. The dog, who was brought in for the examination of the man”s vehicle, alerted to cadaver odour on the tools stored in the boot (a shovel, a level and a compactor). The police went to the building site where the suspect had worked a few days before and discovered the body, buried in a garage. The murderer had made efficient use of his tools to carry out his task. (TOTL)

Worth repeating imo.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 06, 2019, 06:48:27 PM
18:30 was kids bath time. Who turned up? 30 minutes gone changed to a few minutes months later. You would be a fool to believe these people.

ive proved there are lies in TOTL but you believe it...[deleted personal question]
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 06, 2019, 06:49:12 PM
Worth repeating imo.

but it isnt true......37 cases in 6 years
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 06, 2019, 06:51:19 PM
THE ENGLISH SPECIALIST DOG TEAM
The heat is scorching on this thirtieth day of July 2007 when two Springer Spaniels, Eddie and Keela, get off the British Airways plane, accompanied by their trainer, Martin Grime. An air-conditioned vehicle is waiting to take them to their accommodation. A vet, who will be on hand during their stay, has been brought in to intervene in case of illness or if the dogs get bitten by a snake. Their mission: to find Madeleine’s body and expose those responsible.

Eddie has been involved in a great number of cases, helping the police to resolve a good many riddles, thanks to his sense of smell. Even if the body has been moved, objects the body has touched have been contaminated by its odour, especially porous materials, fabrics, the upholstery in cars, etc. And that odour, Eddie knows how to recognise out of a thousand.

Keela, a scenes of crime specialist, is capable of locating particles of blood even after a place has been cleaned with chemical products or bleach. Sometimes, the residues are so microscopic they are missed by the instruments of the forensic police, as sophicticated as they are, and it’s impossible to harvest them without taking all of what they are on.

Eddie is always the first to be brought onto a site. Once he has discerned the odour that he knows so well, it’s Keela’s turn to go into action, on the lookout for the slightest whiff of blood. The simultaneous presence of the two elements in a given place – blood and cavaver odours – is taken to indicate that a body has been there and that it’s probably there that the death occurred.

The dogs’ CV is impressive. Besides collaborating in hundreds of investigations, they passed the practical tests brilliantly at the FBI’s “Body Farm,” the only place in the world where human cadavers are used to simulate homicide scenarios and concealment of bodies.

The case of Amanda Edwards, reported missing, is also very impressive. The police, who conducted a search of her ex-partner’s home, found small bloodstains there, but no trace of a body. The dog, who was brought in for the examination of the man”s vehicle, alerted to cadaver odour on the tools stored in the boot (a shovel, a level and a compactor). The police went to the building site where the suspect had worked a few days before and discovered the body, buried in a garage. The murderer had made efficient use of his tools to carry out his task. (TOTL)

That is total BS....if both dogs alert it could well be only blood present...FACT....im surprised how many fall for this rubbish
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 06, 2019, 06:53:50 PM
18:30 was kids bath time. Who turned up? 30 minutes gone changed to a few minutes months later. You would be a fool to believe these people.

Kate answers the door dressed only in a towel but David couldn't remember what she was wearing.

Extraordinary!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 06, 2019, 06:54:53 PM
Because they needed one.
So if a mate of yours needed an alibi you’d oblige no questions asked I take it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 06, 2019, 06:56:26 PM
Kate answers the door dressed only in a towel but David couldn't remember what she was wearing.

Extraordinary!
Why?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 06, 2019, 06:58:51 PM
So if a mate of yours needed an alibi you’d oblige no questions asked I take it.

Depends on the strength of our relationship.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 06, 2019, 06:59:58 PM
THE ENGLISH SPECIALIST DOG TEAM
The heat is scorching on this thirtieth day of July 2007 when two Springer Spaniels, Eddie and Keela, get off the British Airways plane, accompanied by their trainer, Martin Grime. An air-conditioned vehicle is waiting to take them to their accommodation. A vet, who will be on hand during their stay, has been brought in to intervene in case of illness or if the dogs get bitten by a snake. Their mission: to find Madeleine’s body and expose those responsible.

Eddie has been involved in a great number of cases, helping the police to resolve a good many riddles, thanks to his sense of smell. Even if the body has been moved, objects the body has touched have been contaminated by its odour, especially porous materials, fabrics, the upholstery in cars, etc. And that odour, Eddie knows how to recognise out of a thousand.

Keela, a scenes of crime specialist, is capable of locating particles of blood even after a place has been cleaned with chemical products or bleach. Sometimes, the residues are so microscopic they are missed by the instruments of the forensic police, as sophicticated as they are, and it’s impossible to harvest them without taking all of what they are on.

Eddie is always the first to be brought onto a site. Once he has discerned the odour that he knows so well, it’s Keela’s turn to go into action, on the lookout for the slightest whiff of blood. The simultaneous presence of the two elements in a given place – blood and cavaver odours – is taken to indicate that a body has been there and that it’s probably there that the death occurred.

The dogs’ CV is impressive. Besides collaborating in hundreds of investigations, they passed the practical tests brilliantly at the FBI’s “Body Farm,” the only place in the world where human cadavers are used to simulate homicide scenarios and concealment of bodies.

The case of Amanda Edwards, reported missing, is also very impressive. The police, who conducted a search of her ex-partner’s home, found small bloodstains there, but no trace of a body. The dog, who was brought in for the examination of the man”s vehicle, alerted to cadaver odour on the tools stored in the boot (a shovel, a level and a compactor). The police went to the building site where the suspect had worked a few days before and discovered the body, buried in a garage. The murderer had made efficient use of his tools to carry out his task. (TOTL)

a little firther on is this.


More recently, it's Eddie who helps to find a body buried under a flagstone at the former orphanage, Haut-de-la-Garenne, in Jersey, setting for a terrible case of paedophilia and child murder.

complete and utter BS
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 06, 2019, 07:01:27 PM
Only if you believe she was in that tidy bed that night.

Don't you start.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 06, 2019, 07:04:29 PM
ive proved there are lies in TOTL but you believe it...does that make you a fool

That's not from TOTL. That is from the tapas 9 statements. 18:30 was normal bath time and we know somebody did NOT see Kate in a towel! Nothing to see here hey Davel? Kate said he did not enter the apartment and there is a reason. He said Gerry told him to check on Kate. His wife said he decided to go himself and that Gerry told her Kate was bathing the kids. What a complete mess they have made of it!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 06, 2019, 07:05:45 PM
That's not from TOTL. That is from the tapas 9 statements. 18:30 was normal bath time and we know somebody did NOT see Kate in a towel! Nothing to see here hey Davel? Kate said he did not enter the apartment and there is a reason. He said Gerry told him to check on Kate. His wife said he decided to go himself and that Gerry told her Kate was bathing the kids. What a complete mess they have made of it!

More recently, it's Eddie who helps to find a body buried under a flagstone at the former orphanage, Haut-de-la-Garenne, in Jersey, setting for a terrible case of paedophilia and child murder.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 06, 2019, 07:05:54 PM
Depends on the strength of our relationship.
Seriously?  You’d provide a false alibi for a close friend whose child had vanished?  Wow.  Do you have no morals at all?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 06, 2019, 07:07:40 PM
That's not from TOTL. That is from the tapas 9 statements. 18:30 was normal bath time and we know somebody did NOT see Kate in a towel! Nothing to see here hey Davel? Kate said he did not enter the apartment and there is a reason. He said Gerry told him to check on Kate. His wife said he decided to go himself and that Gerry told her Kate was bathing the kids. What a complete mess they have made of it!
Actually they played a blinder.  12 years on and the police suspect is a German paedo.  Go figure.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 06, 2019, 07:11:04 PM
I thought it was the woman in purple. I wonder who's next after the German?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 06, 2019, 07:15:23 PM
I thought it was the woman in purple. I wonder who's next after the German?
Not the McCanns that’s for sure.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 06, 2019, 07:27:15 PM
Don't you start.

A reasonable question considering the facts. Who saw her in bed that night?

The father

"With respect to the bed where his daughter was on the night she disappeared he says that she slept uncovered, as usual when she was hot, with the bedclothes folded down."

The mother

"She was under the covers, she thinks because she was a bit cold."

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 06, 2019, 07:30:02 PM
A reasonable question considering the facts. Who saw her in bed that night?

The father

"With respect to the bed where his daughter was on the night she disappeared he says that she slept uncovered, as usual when she was hot, with the bedclothes folded down."

The mother

"She was under the covers, she thinks because she was a bit cold."

Just cut the downright Libel.  There has been far too much of it lately.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 06, 2019, 07:31:37 PM
That is from their own statements so they can libel themselves.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 06, 2019, 07:51:40 PM
Seriously?  You’d provide a false alibi for a close friend whose child had vanished?  Wow.  Do you have no morals at all?

I have some morals, I wouldn't bathe my friends infants for example.
That would be a bit pervy imo
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 06, 2019, 07:54:10 PM
I have some morals, I wouldn't bathe my friends infants for example.
That would be a bit pervy imo

There were several Fathers involved.  Were they all perverts do you think?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 06, 2019, 07:55:38 PM
There were several Fathers involved.  Were they all perverts do you think?

Yes. It isn't something I would do or allow.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 06, 2019, 07:57:10 PM
Yes. It isn't something I would do or allow.

So you think that Dr. Arul Gaspar is a pervert, in your opinion?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 06, 2019, 07:59:12 PM
So you think that Dr. Arul Gaspar is a pervert, in your opinion?

I don;t know him personally but if he does bathe others infants then yes, that sounds a bit pervy to me.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 06, 2019, 08:01:45 PM
I don;t know him personally but if he does bathe others infants then yes, that sounds a bit pervy to me.

You don't know David Payne personally either.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 06, 2019, 08:02:50 PM
I have some morals, I wouldn't bathe my friends infants for example.
That would be a bit pervy imo
Only if you were a pervert in the first place surely?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 06, 2019, 08:03:10 PM
You don't know David Payne personally either.

That doesn't mean I can't consider his actions perverse.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 06, 2019, 08:07:58 PM
Only if you were a pervert in the first place surely?

I have no issue with people being pervy around adults. That's fine by me.
I myself have a right old perv at the birds in their skimpy costumes every time I go to the swimming pool, for example.
David Payne on the other hand, sees Kate dripping wet wearing only a towel & it doesn't even register.
Maybe he likes younger women.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 06, 2019, 08:08:36 PM
That doesn't mean I can't consider his actions perverse.
So we’re building a nice picture of your beliefs.  It seems you believe Kate throttled Madeleine and then Gerry asked his pervy friend to lie for him and the pervy friend was OK with that.  What else?  When and where was the body hidden?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 06, 2019, 08:10:30 PM
I have no issue with people being pervy around adults. That's fine by me.
I myself have a right old perv at the birds in their skimpy costumes every time I go to the swimming pool, for example.
David Payne on the other hand, sees Kate dripping wet wearing only a towel & it doesn't even register.
Maybe he likes younger women.
Do you get a boner when you see a woman fully covered by a towel?  Do you go all Benny Hill?  Is a towel wrapped around a woman’s body a massive turn on for you?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 06, 2019, 08:10:46 PM
So we’re building a nice picof your beliefs.  It seems you believe Kate throttled Madeleine and then Gerry asked his pervy friend to lie for him and the pervy friend was OK with that.  What else?  When and where was the body hidden?

You already know the answer to that, in a dumpster type bin some time between 10 & 10.30.
This is only one theory. I have others.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 06, 2019, 08:10:55 PM
TOTL is not  a reliable cite ...thers too much in it that isnt true....such as eddie found a body under a slab of concrete in jersey

"He has additionally trained exclusively using human remains in the U.S.A. in association with the F.B.I. "

Where do you think this took place? The FBI body farm perhaps?

"In my role as advisor to the U.S. Justice Department I have facilitated assessment of numerous cadaver search dog teams in the United States."

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

What branch of government is the FBI under?

Operating under the jurisdiction of the United States Department of Justice, the FBI is also a member of the U.S. Intelligence Community and reports to both the Attorney General and the Director of National Intelligence.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 06, 2019, 08:13:09 PM
Do you get a boner when you see a woman fully covered by a towel?  Do you go all Benny Hill?  Is a towel wrapped around a woman’s body a massive turn on for you?

I think I'd remember if I saw it. He spent several minutes talking to her wile she was dressed like that but he was oblivious. Maybe he's a bit gay.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 06, 2019, 08:14:12 PM
You already know the answer to that, in a dumpster type bin some time between 10 & 10.30.
This is only one theory. I have others.
What about the hire car?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 06, 2019, 08:14:50 PM
What about the hire car?

What about the hire car?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 06, 2019, 08:18:56 PM
I think I'd remember if I saw it. He spent several minutes talking to her wile she was dressed like that but he was oblivious. Maybe he's a bit gay.
Weren’t they on a beach holiday?  Which is more titillating to you - a woman in a bikini or a woman wrapped in a towel?  So, because David Payne failed to remember the towel do you think he made up the encounter?  What was the point of that then, given that the minute he’d left (a ccording to his account) Kate still had ample opportunity to do her throttling?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 06, 2019, 08:22:20 PM
What about the hire car?
You think the dog alerts to that were irrelevant then, but not the ones in the apartment?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 06, 2019, 08:23:28 PM
Weren’t they on a beach holiday?  Which is more titillating to you - a woman in a bikini or a woman wrapped in a towel?  So, because David Payne failed to remember the towel do you think he made up the encounter?  What was the point of that then, given that the minute he’d left (a ccording to his account) Kate still had ample opportunity to do her throttling?

I think the encounter wasn't as described. The evidence suggests it wasn't by way of the differing accounts.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 06, 2019, 08:25:57 PM
I have no issue with people being pervy around adults. That's fine by me.
I myself have a right old perv at the birds in their skimpy costumes every time I go to the swimming pool, for example.
David Payne on the other hand, sees Kate dripping wet wearing only a towel & it doesn't even register.
Maybe he likes younger women.

so you admit to being a bit of a perv..most odd..do you go to the pool often
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 06, 2019, 08:27:08 PM
You think the dog alerts to that were irrelevant then, but not the ones in the apartment?

The dog alerts are meaningless, we are always told.
But, I suppose, the alert to the hire car could be from cross contamination, or, maybe they did move her body in the hire car. Only Kate & Gerry can tell us the answer to this.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 06, 2019, 08:27:21 PM
I think the encounter wasn't as described. The evidence suggests it wasn't by way of the differing accounts.
Odd that, considering they were supposed to be colluding in a cover up.  What went wrong?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 06, 2019, 08:27:57 PM
The dog alerts are meaningless, we are always told.
But, I suppose, the alert to the hire car could be from cross contamination, or, maybe they did move her body in the hire car. Only Kate & Gerry can tell us the answer to this.

they already have
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 06, 2019, 08:28:19 PM
The dog alerts are meaningless, we are always told.
But, I suppose, the alert to the hire car could be from cross contamination, or, maybe they did move her body in the hire car. Only Kate & Gerry can tell us the answer to this.
You really haven’t got a clue have you? 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 06, 2019, 08:31:07 PM
"He has additionally trained exclusively using human remains in the U.S.A. in association with the F.B.I. "

Where do you think this took place? The FBI body farm perhaps?

"In my role as advisor to the U.S. Justice Department I have facilitated assessment of numerous cadaver search dog teams in the United States."

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

What branch of government is the FBI under?

Operating under the jurisdiction of the United States Department of Justice, the FBI is also a member of the U.S. Intelligence Community and reports to both the Attorney General and the Director of National Intelligence.

Stockham was the expert...they didnt need an advisor....
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 06, 2019, 08:34:17 PM
You really haven’t got a clue have you?

On the contrary. I'm yet to see my Maddie in the bin theory be debunked.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 06, 2019, 08:35:31 PM
On the contrary. I'm yet to see my Maddie in the bin theory be debunked.

again...celestial teapot
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 06, 2019, 08:45:26 PM

She's either out there, or she's not, & there's nothing to say that she's not out there alive, so, it's simple, she's out there until proven otherwise.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 06, 2019, 08:46:48 PM
On the contrary. I'm yet to see my Maddie in the bin theory be debunked.
Tell us what it is then.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 06, 2019, 08:48:23 PM
Weren’t they on a beach holiday?  Which is more titillating to you - a woman in a bikini or a woman wrapped in a towel?  So, because David Payne failed to remember the towel do you think he made up the encounter?  What was the point of that then, given that the minute he’d left (a ccording to his account) Kate still had ample opportunity to do her throttling?

And not one photo of the family at the beach! Some beach holiday. He didn't see a towel because he didn't see her in a towel. Kate had a run along the beach to Rocha Negra then waited another sweaty hour for a shower.

If "I'm not lying about that!" says so it must be true 8)--))
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 06, 2019, 08:49:20 PM
She's either out there, or she's not, & there's nothing to say that she's not out there alive, so, it's simple, she's out there until proven otherwise.

I agree.....you havent managed to debunk the alien abduction....
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 06, 2019, 08:49:27 PM
Tell us what it is then.

We went through it already about a week ago on the sceptic beliefs thread.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 06, 2019, 08:50:19 PM
I agree.....you havent managed to debunk the alien abduction....

That was Gerry's celestial tea pot
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 06, 2019, 08:50:58 PM
That was Gerry's celestial tea pot

you cant debunk it can you
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 06, 2019, 08:52:52 PM
Have you got a witness who saw a UFO? Only an idiot would come up with that theory.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 06, 2019, 08:56:57 PM
Have you got a witness who saw a UFO? Only an idiot would come up with that theory.

Its invisible.....they are far ahead of us in technology...I think  only an idiot would suggest kate murdered Maddie...cut the ad homs
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 06, 2019, 08:57:36 PM
Parents are involved in most missing child cases not aliens.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 06, 2019, 08:57:44 PM
you cant debunk it can you

She's either out there = (1) abducted & recoverable

Or she's not= (2) not abducted or recoverable

& there's nothing to say she's not out there alive= (3) abducted, alive & recoverable

So it's simple, she's out there until proven otherwise.

....

Option (2) shouldn't be an option if Maddie was abducted, but option (2) exists, because she wasn't.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 06, 2019, 08:58:52 PM
We went through it already about a week ago on the sceptic beliefs thread.
Did we?  Gove me a link or a brief precis including timeline, location of bin etc.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 06, 2019, 09:00:11 PM
Did we?  Gove me a link or a brief precis including timeline, location of bin etc.

Read the sceptic thread, it's in there somewhere.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 06, 2019, 09:00:21 PM
She's either out there = (1) abducted & recoverable

Or she's not= (2) not abducted or recoverable

& there's nothing to say she's not out there alive= (3) abducted, alive & recoverable

So it's simple, she's out there until proven otherwise.

....

Option (2) shouldn't be an option if Maddie was abducted, but option (2) exists, because she wasn't.

oh dear ..are you not familiar with Quantum Theory....she could be out there ..and not out there...at the same time....
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 06, 2019, 09:02:05 PM
She's either out there = (1) abducted & recoverable

Or she's not= (2) not abducted or recoverable

& there's nothing to say she's not out there alive= (3) abducted, alive & recoverable

So it's simple, she's out there until proven otherwise.

....

Option (2) shouldn't be an option if Maddie was abducted, but option (2) exists, because she wasn't.
And yet the police believe otherwise, strange isn’t it?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 06, 2019, 09:03:12 PM
Read the sceptic thread, it's in there somewhere.
Nah, tell us again, cba’d to trawl through it all.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 06, 2019, 09:03:24 PM
Did we?  Gove me a link or a brief precis including timeline, location of bin etc.

In that theory the bin would have to be close to the beach. Smithman had passed bins before the sighting so I ruled it out.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 06, 2019, 09:09:31 PM
And yet the police believe otherwise, strange isn’t it?

Yes, they believe that anyone of a great list of suspects have abducted Maddie, based on the evidence.
I find it fascinating just how many different people are implicated by the abduction evidence which remains top secret. Paedos, junkies, bin men & burglars. butchers, bakers. candlestick makers. Take your pick. Spin the wheel of suspects & see where it lands.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 06, 2019, 09:15:53 PM
In that theory the bin would have to be close to the beach. Smithman had passed bins before the sighting so I ruled it out.

On the other hand if simeone is spotted they might react by getting rid of the evidence asap.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 06, 2019, 09:31:26 PM
Yes, they believe that anyone of a great list of suspects have abducted Maddie, based on the evidence.
I find it fascinating just how many different people are implicated by the abduction evidence which remains top secret. Paedos, junkies, bin men & burglars. butchers, bakers. candlestick makers. Take your pick. Spin the wheel of suspects & see where it lands.

And remember officers, if you happen to  land on the McCann segment, you automatically get to spin again.  8(0(*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 06, 2019, 09:35:04 PM
Yes, they believe that anyone of a great list of suspects have abducted Maddie, based on the evidence.
I find it fascinating just how many different people are implicated by the abduction evidence which remains top secret. Paedos, junkies, bin men & burglars. butchers, bakers. candlestick makers. Take your pick. Spin the wheel of suspects & see where it lands.
Perhaps you can explain why you (without full infettered access to all the evidence) knows better than the police (who do have full and unfettered access to all the evidence)?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 06, 2019, 09:37:09 PM
Perhaps you can explain why you (without full infettered access to all the evidence) knows better than the police (who do have full and unfettered access to all the evidence)?

Perhaps you can explain how so many different people can be implicated by the abduction evidence?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 06, 2019, 09:41:18 PM
Perhaps you can explain how so many different people can be implicated by the abduction evidence?
Perhaps you can answer my question first before deflecting with your own?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 06, 2019, 09:46:16 PM
The FBI worked with Grime cuz his dogs were the best and very reliable! Eddie and Keela first went to the FBI body farm and were tested. Both dogs passed with flying colours. This was prior to the McCann case. Incredibly NOT unreliable!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 06, 2019, 09:51:06 PM
Perhaps you can answer my question first before deflecting with your own?

Perhaps you could answer mine first, I've answered plenty of yours already. How about you try explaining something for once.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 06, 2019, 10:00:46 PM
Perhaps you could answer mine first, I've answered plenty of yours already. How about you try explaining something for once.
I guess I asked you a question you simply cannot answer.  As for your rather facetious question, some crimes are investigated in which there are a number of suspects that are investigated and either eliminated or not, there is nothing massively unusual about it, why do you think there is?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 06, 2019, 10:12:05 PM
I guess I asked you a question you simply cannot answer.  As for your rather facetious question, some crimes are investigated in which there are a number of suspects that are investigated and either eliminated or not, there is nothing massively unusual about it, why do you think there is?

Because, as I said, I find it strange that the abduction evidence can implicate so many different people.
Robert Murat was made an arguido by the PJ on behalf of Grange.
What can he possibly have in common with this 'new' paedo murderer suspect?
Residing in Portugal in 2007?
To me, that doesn't say much about the strength of the abduction evidence.
 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 06, 2019, 10:25:56 PM
Because, as I said, I find it strange that the abduction evidence can implicate so many different people.
Robert Murat was made an arguido by the PJ on behalf of Grange.
What can he possibly have in common with this 'new' paedo murderer suspect?
Residing in Portugal in 2007?
To me, that doesn't say much about the strength of the abduction evidence.
Robert Murat was not made an arguido on behalf of Grange. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 06, 2019, 10:34:22 PM
Robert Murat was not made an arguido on behalf of Grange.

My mistake. He was questioned as a witness.
Quite what he could have witnessed from the inside of his mothers kitchen is beyond me.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 06, 2019, 10:38:49 PM
My mistake. He was questioned as a witness.
Quite what he could have witnessed from the inside of his mothers kitchen is beyond me.
I think you’re just feeling very frustrated that the police know stuff that you don’t.  Try to relax and think happy thoughts.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 06, 2019, 10:42:30 PM
I think you’re just feeling very frustrated that the police know stuff that you don’t.  Try to relax and think happy thoughts.

Well then you think wrong.
I'm confident the police have b....r all abduction evidence.  Hence their scatter gun approach to suspects.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 06, 2019, 10:45:05 PM
My mistake. He was questioned as a witness.
Quite what he could have witnessed from the inside of his mothers kitchen is beyond me.

Perhaps it was with regard to his confrontation with the tapas friends.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 06, 2019, 10:48:07 PM
Well then you think wrong.
I'm confident the police have b....r all abduction evidence.  Hence their scatter gun approach to suspects.

The strange thing is that since 2011 there has been not one single official announcement from SY that they are investigating anybody.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 06, 2019, 11:20:56 PM
Well then you think wrong.
I'm confident the police have b....r all abduction evidence.  Hence their scatter gun approach to suspects.
So in your opinion you have exactly the same access to all the evidence as the police do you?   &%%6
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 06, 2019, 11:22:03 PM
The strange thing is that since 2011 there has been not one single official announcement from SY that they are investigating anybody.
What was that thing with the more recent arguidos?  Was that just for fun?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 07, 2019, 12:56:26 AM
On the other hand if simeone is spotted they might react by getting rid of the evidence asap.

Possibly but IMO Smithman knew his destination and after passing so many eye witnesses nothing was going to stop him.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 07, 2019, 03:02:51 AM
Possibly but IMO Smithman knew his destination and after passing so many eye witnesses nothing was going to stop him.
That could be describing any innocent person taking his child home.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 07, 2019, 06:19:01 AM
That could be describing any innocent person taking his child home.
Along with Tannerman it seems then,SY were almost certain who Tannerman was to be able to move the timeline on,but not a word on Smithman,he's the key,imo.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 07, 2019, 08:42:40 AM
Along with Tannerman it seems then,SY were almost certain who Tannerman was to be able to move the timeline on,but not a word on Smithman,he's the key,imo.
But from the Smith sightings I'm sure they would have known whether the child was alive or dead.  In Amaral's theory Smithman is carrying a deceased child whereas in the latest theory the German paedophile would be carrying a living child.  Which is it?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 07, 2019, 09:28:02 AM
But from the Smith sightings I'm sure they would have known whether the child was alive or dead.  In Amaral's theory Smithman is carrying a deceased child whereas in the latest theory the German paedophile would be carrying a living child.  Which is it?
I wouldn't be too sure. A limp, sleeping small child will look and act lifeless, with limbs dangling, when slung over the shoulder and cradled with the forearm in that way. In fact I doubt anyone would assume the child was dead, they would default assume it was sleeping, surely.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 07, 2019, 10:22:30 AM
I wouldn't be too sure. A limp, sleeping small child will look and act lifeless, with limbs dangling, when slung over the shoulder and cradled with the forearm in that way. In fact I doubt anyone would assume the child was dead, they would default assume it was sleeping, surely.
So are we saying we can't be sure if they are seeing a deceased child or just a sleeping child?

Immediately after death a child would be very hard to carry in that position due to the flaccidity.  Maybe as rigor mortis set in a child would look more like a sleeping child.
If it was 2-3 hours after death rigor would be setting in, but then death would be 10:00 PM  minus 2-3 hours which means 7:00 -7:30 PM.  That becomes a time after the kids were put to bed. 

I tend to think it was a living child.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 07, 2019, 10:44:15 AM
So are we saying we can't be sure if they are seeing a deceased child or just a sleeping child?

Immediately after death a child would be very hard to carry in that position due to the flaccidity.  Maybe as rigor mortis set in a child would look more like a sleeping child.
If it was 2-3 hours after death rigor would be setting in, but then death would be 10:00 PM  minus 2-3 hours which means 7:00 -7:30 PM.  That becomes a time after the kids were put to bed. 

I tend to think it was a living child.
I don't know. I do know that passer's by probably wouldn't think.......'that child looks dead to me'.
I'm pretty sure I've been in this position before, walking home at night on holiday, other holidaymakers walking in the opposite direction carrying a kid in exactly the manner described. I wouldn't assume 'dead child', but may wonder why he/she wasn't in a pram.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 07, 2019, 11:34:58 AM
I don't know. I do know that passer's by probably wouldn't think.......'that child looks dead to me'.
I'm pretty sure I've been in this position before, walking home at night on holiday, other holidaymakers walking in the opposite direction carrying a kid in exactly the manner described. I wouldn't assume 'dead child', but may wonder why he/she wasn't in a pram.

I don't know if you have walked on calçadas (Portuguese paving cobbles).  They are used for being durable, not for being smooth.  Pavements are normally 'rugged', so often people choose to walk on the tarmac of the street instead.

Best information suggests (I say no more than that) that Smithman headed down the Travessa das Escadinhas, the passageway of little steps.  The title is misleading.  The steps are very much on the large side.

All in all, that route is not buggy friendly.

It suggests (again I can say no more than that) that Smithman was travelling a short distance and knew the local terrain.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 07, 2019, 12:13:52 PM
I don't know. I do know that passer's by probably wouldn't think.......'that child looks dead to me'.
I'm pretty sure I've been in this position before, walking home at night on holiday, other holidaymakers walking in the opposite direction carrying a kid in exactly the manner described. I wouldn't assume 'dead child', but may wonder why he/she wasn't in a pram.
A nearly 4 year old in a pram!  You've got to be joking.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 07, 2019, 12:16:01 PM
I don't know if you have walked on calçadas (Portuguese paving cobbles).  They are used for being durable, not for being smooth.  Pavements are normally 'rugged', so often people choose to walk on the tarmac of the street instead.

Best information suggests (I say no more than that) that Smithman headed down the Travessa das Escadinhas, the passageway of little steps.  The title is misleading.  The steps are very much on the large side.

All in all, that route is not buggy friendly.

It suggests (again I can say no more than that) that Smithman was travelling a short distance and knew the local terrain.
So with your version of Smithman was the child alive or dead?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 07, 2019, 12:33:11 PM
A nearly 4 year old in a pram!  You've got to be joking.

OK man, chill the heck out. It's just a comment.
If you have a buggy on holiday, which they may or may not have, then why not use it? MY 3.93 year old would happily go in a pram on holiday.
But not on a steep, cobbled, stepped street, as SIL descibes. Otherwise I'd end up up carrying both!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 07, 2019, 12:43:13 PM
OK man, chill the heck out. It's just a comment.
If you have a buggy on holiday, which they may or may not have, then why not use it? MY 3.93 year old would happily go in a pram on holiday.
But not on a steep, cobbled, stepped street, as SIL descibes. Otherwise I'd end up up carrying both!
Looking up Google 4 year olds in a buggy OK it isn't that uncommon. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 07, 2019, 12:45:51 PM
Looking up Google 4 year olds in a buggy OK it isn't that uncommon.
I'm glad you Googled '4 year olds in a buggy' and I didn't.
Try explaining that to the rozzers - 'I was trying to prove a total stranger wrong on the internet, honest'.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 07, 2019, 01:00:13 PM
So with your version of Smithman was the child alive or dead?

I can't prove anything about that one way or the other.

Here's what I do know.

It's easy to see from where Smithman 'emerged' down to the bottom of the 'passageway' of little steps.  So he saw a large group of people coming towards him.

He had 3 easy options to avoid them.  Yet he chose to pass them.

Over to you to make your own mind up.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 07, 2019, 01:06:18 PM
OK man, chill the heck out. It's just a comment.
If you have a buggy on holiday, which they may or may not have, then why not use it? MY 3.93 year old would happily go in a pram on holiday.
But not on a steep, cobbled, stepped street, as SIL descibes. Otherwise I'd end up up carrying both!

The McCanns did not take a buggy on holiday.

If they had, things might be quite different now.

Just as things might be quite different if they had taken a baby monitor with them.  But they didn't.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 07, 2019, 01:07:52 PM
That could be describing any innocent person taking his child home.

Not when you know who he is. Lies catch up with you.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 07, 2019, 01:17:40 PM
The McCanns did not take a buggy on holiday.

If they had, things might be quite different now.

Just as things might be quite different if they had taken a baby monitor with them.  But they didn't.
What I would say is, theoretically and as a macabre as this sounds, it would be much easier to pass off a dead child by carrying her/him a la Smithman, than it would in a buggy, cobbled street notwithstanding. You'd get a good front on view of a child in a buggy.
It's irrelevant as they didn't have one. Maybe they couldn't be arsed lumping it around, but if I had 3 infant kids on holiday I would refuse to leave the house without one.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 07, 2019, 01:44:23 PM
What I would say is, theoretically and as a macabre as this sounds, it would be much easier to pass off a dead child by carrying her/him a la Smithman, than it would in a buggy, cobbled street notwithstanding. You'd get a good front on view of a child in a buggy.
It's irrelevant as they didn't have one. Maybe they couldn't be arsed lumping it around, but if I had 3 infant kids on holiday I would refuse to leave the house without one.

Understood.

After 2 trips from 5A to the Millennium, they decided to knock that on the head.  It's a nightmare with 3 toddlers and no buggy.

After that the twins went to a playgroup in the Tapas zone.  A much easier walk.  Whilst Madeleine went to the club above OC reception.  That involves a challenging flight of steps, but relatively easy for a parent holding tightly to Madeleine's hand.

Perhaps they were fortunate in their location.  Perhaps not.  Things might have turned out differently for Madeleine if the T9 had all been located closer to the Mill, but we will never know, will we?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 07, 2019, 06:15:35 PM
What I would say is, theoretically and as a macabre as this sounds, it would be much easier to pass off a dead child by carrying her/him a la Smithman, than it would in a buggy, cobbled street notwithstanding. You'd get a good front on view of a child in a buggy.
It's irrelevant as they didn't have one. Maybe they couldn't be arsed lumping it around, but if I had 3 infant kids on holiday I would refuse to leave the house without one.
Wouldn’t you have to have a real nerve to walk through town carrying an uncovered dead body?  Would ‘t every braincell in your head be shrieking “cover up the body, don’t be caught with a corpse in your arms”? 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 07, 2019, 06:24:41 PM
Perhaps if you were in that situation, it was because there was no other choice.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 07, 2019, 06:27:39 PM
Perhaps if you were in that situation, it was because there was no other choice.
No one was forcing anyone to walk through town at 10pm with an uncovered corpse.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 07, 2019, 06:29:28 PM
Perhaps if you were in that situation, it was because there was no other choice.
No other choice but to act normal.  But a dead child won't act normal.  A frightened living child might not act normal.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 07, 2019, 08:02:04 PM
Wouldn’t you have to have a real nerve to walk through town carrying an uncovered dead body?  Would ‘t every braincell in your head be shrieking “cover up the body, don’t be caught with a corpse in your arms”?
Yes, it would take balls of steel.
But what's the alternative (as per the hypothetical narrative)?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 07, 2019, 08:09:40 PM
Yes, it would take balls of steel.
But what's the alternative (as per the hypothetical narrative)?
Well, if dumping a body in a bin is a pretty foolproof way of getting rid of a little body then why not chuck it in a bin a bit closer rather than the other side of town?  There surely must have been one or two.  How about walking away from thr action (suh as it was) rather than towards it? 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 07, 2019, 08:14:09 PM
Well, if dumping a body in a bin is a pretty foolproof way of getting rid of a little body then why not chuck it in a bin a bit closer rather than the other side of town?  There surely must have been one or two.  How about walking away from thr action (suh as it was) rather than towards it?

I would agree with that last point.
Maybe there was a specific goal, such as the church or the beach, so the risk had to be taken.
Being dropped in a bin was only one suggestion - there could be other potential hiding places.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 07, 2019, 08:28:22 PM
I would agree with that last point.
Maybe there was a specific goal, such as the church or the beach, so the risk had to be taken.
Being dropped in a bin was only one suggestion - there could be other potential hiding places.
You have a body to hide and your immediate thought is PdL church?  Whereabouts exactly?  As for the beach, it’s dark, you don’t have a spade, there are likely to be more people en route, really??
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 07, 2019, 08:33:22 PM
You have a body to hide and your immediate thought is PdL church?  Whereabouts exactly?  As for the beach, it’s dark, you don’t have a spade, there are likely to be more people en route, really??

Desperate times, desperate measures. Who knows what the motives might be?
Both places I mentioned might have been temporary places of concealment, awaiting a further visit later to move somewhere else.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 07, 2019, 11:20:43 PM
Desperate times, desperate measures. Who knows what the motives might be?
Both places I mentioned might have been temporary places of concealment, awaiting a further visit later to move somewhere else.
If the McCanns had come home to discover a corpse they were not under any time pressure to make an instant disposal.  I’m sure they could during the hours following the supposed discovery  have come up with a better plan that didn’t involve parading a corpse through the centre of a holiday resort.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 07, 2019, 11:22:15 PM
Wouldn't you have to have some personal experience of covering up a body before you would know what it would do to your braincells? Doctors for instance will have more experience in dealing with corpses than the general public.
Do doctors have more experience than thr general public of getting away with hiding bodies in holiday resorts?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 08, 2019, 12:02:18 AM
We don't know that yet. That includes you btw. They certainly do have more experience in handling dead bodies. Perhaps calling home to some of their medical friends would be a clue that they needed some advice.
Advice about what?  Where to hide a body in a holiday resort?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 08, 2019, 12:47:56 AM
I would agree with that last point.
Maybe there was a specific goal, such as the church or the beach, so the risk had to be taken.
Being dropped in a bin was only one suggestion - there could be other potential hiding places.

Or perhaps he wanted to put as much distance as possible between the body and 5a ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 08, 2019, 12:59:50 AM
Advice about what?  Where to hide a body in a holiday resort?

You have the beach/rocks, sewer pipes, boats, building site, deserted buildings/gardens, even bushes to temporarily hide.  You may have to go back later to better hide if you are out alone!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 08, 2019, 03:00:48 AM
You have the beach/rocks, sewer pipes, boats, building site, deserted buildings/gardens, even bushes to temporarily hide.  You may have to go back later to better hide if you are out alone!
Is that what you are suggesting actually happened?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 08, 2019, 07:15:39 AM
Or perhaps he wanted to put as much distance as possible between the body and 5a ?
What difference would a few hundred yards make?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 08, 2019, 07:22:50 AM
You have the beach/rocks, sewer pipes, boats, building site, deserted buildings/gardens, even bushes to temporarily hide.  You may have to go back later to better hide if you are out alone!
Why would you have to phone home to your medical friends for advice on any of that?  Why would you need to risk your liberty by going  back and re-hide the body when you could simply claim the abductor dunnit (Faithlilly’s theory) and where, in the middle of the night without a car or digging equipment and with the possibility that you might bump into search parties and dogs at any time, are you going to find a better hiding place?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: kizzy on May 08, 2019, 07:38:06 AM
What difference would a few hundred yards make?


Could be the difference in not finding her - in the immediate area where they were searching.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 08, 2019, 07:43:38 AM

Could be the difference in not finding her - in the immediate area where they were searching.
I thought the whole of PdL was searched, not just the area around the apartment?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 08, 2019, 08:06:37 AM
Is that what you are suggesting actually happened?
What is the gig with doing this?
You're not interested in the answer, save for maybe being thrown a morsel that somehow 'compromises' the poster's opinion. And then what? 'There. I knew it, you said it, I knew you were one of them. Look everyone, P73 just admitted that's what he thought happened'.

I don't get it at all. 'A sphincter say's what?' 'What?'
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: kizzy on May 08, 2019, 08:14:47 AM
I thought the whole of PdL was searched, not just the area around the apartment?

Yes eventually not straight away - wasn't kgmc out searching in early hours on there own.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 08, 2019, 08:35:18 AM
Yes eventually not straight away - wasn't kgmc out searching in early hours on there own.
Well how far did thr police and others search before they packed in for the night?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 08, 2019, 08:48:47 AM
Well how far did thr police and others search before they packed in for the night?
Once the local environs have been thoroughly searched looking for a missing child, I imagine a decision would have to be made at some point. How far can a 3 year old perambulate in such a short time? Half a mile? And would probably gravitate to known places; so once all of those areas have been searched, you will probably need daylight to search more thoroughly the following dawn.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 08, 2019, 08:51:17 AM
Once the local environs have been thoroughly searched looking for a missing child, I imagine a decision would have to be made at some point. How far can a 3 year old perambulate in such a short time? Half a mile? And would probably gravitate to known places; so once all of those areas have been searched, you will probably need daylight to search more thoroughly the following dawn.

By which time weren't the bins emptied?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 08, 2019, 09:00:18 AM
By which time weren't the bins emptied?
Not sure of the timing. I would be looking in bins around the area if I was searching. But only within reasonable walking distance for a 3 year old.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 08, 2019, 09:01:57 AM
What is the gig with doing this?
You're not interested in the answer, save for maybe being thrown a morsel that somehow 'compromises' the poster's opinion. And then what? 'There. I knew it, you said it, I knew you were one of them. Look everyone, P73 just admitted that's what he thought happened'.

I don't get it at all. 'A sphincter say's what?' 'What?'
P73 said "You have the beach/rocks, sewer pipes, boats, building site, deserted buildings/gardens, even bushes to temporarily hide. You may have to go back later to better hide if you are out alone!"

It was mainly the bit about making the hide better that I was curious about.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: kizzy on May 08, 2019, 09:03:43 AM
Well how far did thr police and others search before they packed in for the night?


Who knows - same as imo who knows what kgmcc was doing out on there own for a few hours.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 08, 2019, 09:04:09 AM
Not sure of the timing. I would be looking in bins around the area if I was searching. But only within reasonable walking distance for a 3 year old.
She isn't going to climb into a bin on her own, so why connect the bin search to the walking distance of a 3-4 year old?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 08, 2019, 09:05:20 AM
P73 said "You have the beach/rocks, sewer pipes, boats, building site, deserted buildings/gardens, even bushes to temporarily hide. You may have to go back later to better hide if you are out alone!"

It was mainly the bit about making the hide better that I was curious about.
Fair one.
In this instance, again using my extraordinary powers of logic, I were a perp, and nobody can prove I am, I would be very reluctant to return to the 'hiding' place. That's why most killers disposing of bodies generally do a rubbish job and the body is found by a dog walker at 6am.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 08, 2019, 09:08:21 AM
Why would you have to phone home to your medical friends for advice on any of that?  Why would you need to risk your liberty by going  back and re-hide the body when you could simply claim the abductor dunnit (Faithlilly’s theory) and where, in the middle of the night without a car or digging equipment and with the possibility that you might bump into search parties and dogs at any time, are you going to find a better hiding place?

You don't need to phone anyone. In that theory, an autopsy would discover the cause and time of death. If time of death was 3 hours before she was reported missing then what do you think they would do?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 08, 2019, 09:09:20 AM
She isn't going to climb into a bin on her own, so why connect the bin search to the walking distance of a 3-4 year old?
It's extremely unlikely, agreed. But it wouldn't stop me looking in some really unlikely places out of pure desperation - under cars, in cars, culverts, sheds, dog kennels....bins. I'd be hoping she was lost, cared out of her wits and found refuge somewhere.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 08, 2019, 09:10:04 AM
Once the local environs have been thoroughly searched looking for a missing child, I imagine a decision would have to be made at some point. How far can a 3 year old perambulate in such a short time? Half a mile? And would probably gravitate to known places; so once all of those areas have been searched, you will probably need daylight to search more thoroughly the following dawn.
IMO you’d probably need daylight to scout out a decent secondary hiding place for a body, somewhere that no one is ever going to think to look for or find, especially if you’re in unfamiliar territory, without transport, accomplices or tools.  However, with that comes massive risk of being discovered, particularly as you kicked up an almighty stink about the missing child just a few hours earlier and risk bumping into searchers at any moment.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: kizzy on May 08, 2019, 09:13:23 AM
Fair one.
In this instance, again using my extraordinary powers of logic, I were a perp, and nobody can prove I am, I would be very reluctant to return to the 'hiding' place. That's why most killers disposing of bodies generally do a rubbish job and the body is found by a dog walker at 6am.


I would think that scenario wouldn't work - if you didn't want the body to be connected back to you

You would need to get rid of it permanently - never to be found.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 08, 2019, 09:14:41 AM
Fair one.
In this instance, again using my extraordinary powers of logic, I were a perp, and nobody can prove I am, I would be very reluctant to return to the 'hiding' place. That's why most killers disposing of bodies generally do a rubbish job and the body is found by a dog walker at 6am.
True - for the PJ could have been told to keep an eye on the McCanns, and I've read that they were watching Kate and Gerry doing their early morning search.  (At least some of the police saw them searching.)

It's extremely unlikely, agreed. But it wouldn't stop me looking in some really unlikely places out of pure desperation - under cars, in cars, culverts, sheds, dog kennels....bins. I'd be hoping she was lost, cared out of her wits and found refuge somewhere.

  OK  She had no shoes on.  I can't see her going for miles on her own in the dark.



Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 08, 2019, 09:16:24 AM
It's extremely unlikely, agreed. But it wouldn't stop me looking in some really unlikely places out of pure desperation - under cars, in cars, culverts, sheds, dog kennels....bins. I'd be hoping she was lost, cared out of her wits and found refuge somewhere.

A sewer pipe temporarily would be a smart choice (due to smell) if you wanted to go back and retrieve when alone.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 08, 2019, 09:17:06 AM

I would think that scenario wouldn't work - if you didn't want the body to be connected back to you

You would need to get rid of it permanently - never to be found.

Which is exactly what has happened.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 08, 2019, 09:17:30 AM
You don't need to phone anyone. In that theory, an autopsy would discover the cause and time of death. If time of death was 3 hours before she was reported missing then what do you think they would do?
So you believe Madeleine died at 7pm and the McCanns went to dinner at 8pm, leaving the body where exactly?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 08, 2019, 09:18:51 AM
In that theory, Eddie told you with his first alert.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 08, 2019, 09:18:56 AM
True - for the PJ could have been told to keep an eye on the McCanns, and I've read that they were watching Kate and Gerry doing their early morning search.  (At least some of the police saw them searching.)
  OK  She had no shoes on.  I can't see her going for miles on her own in the dark.
I did say that, to be fair, she wouldn't be walking far.
Besides, she would have been able to hear the frivolity at the Tapas Bar - pretty sure she could navigate that far.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 08, 2019, 09:19:42 AM

I would think that scenario wouldn't work - if you didn't want the body to be connected back to you

You would need to get rid of it permanently - never to be found.
And how would you go about doing that at very short notice in a small holiday resort abroad, in the dark, with no transport, tools or local assistance?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: kizzy on May 08, 2019, 09:20:55 AM
IMO you’d probably need daylight to scout out a decent secondary hiding place for a body, somewhere that no one is ever going to think to look for or find, especially if you’re in unfamiliar territory, without transport, accomplices or tools.  However, with that comes massive risk of being discovered, particularly as you kicked up an almighty stink about the missing child just a few hours earlier and risk bumping into searchers at any moment.

Well if you hadn't time and needed to go back - as working to a tight schedule two places at once.

You could go back later - as you would know exactly were you were going even in the dark

A few people would be around at 10 ish but not in the early hours in the dark.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 08, 2019, 09:21:28 AM
In that theory, Eddie told you with his first alert.
Where was that?  Benind the sofa?  In the cupboard?  The McCanns left their apartment unlocked and allowed their friends to go check on their kids.  Again, what a nerve! 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 08, 2019, 09:21:59 AM
And how would you go about doing that at very short notice in a small holiday resort abroad, in the dark, with no transport, tools or local assistance?
At very short notice too.
There are very few plausible explanations. And a few more implausible ones.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 08, 2019, 09:22:28 AM
Well if you hadn't time and needed to go back - as working to a tight schedule two places at once.

You could go back later - as you would know exactly were you were going even in the dark

A few people would be around at 10 ish but not in the early hours in the dark.
You might be able to navigate your way back to the first dumping spot, but then what?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: kizzy on May 08, 2019, 09:24:43 AM
And how would you go about doing that at very short notice in a small holiday resort abroad, in the dark, with no transport, tools or local assistance?

Ask the people who did it. after all- we don't know how much time they had could have been hours.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 08, 2019, 09:27:02 AM
Which is exactly what has happened.
All you'd need was a car and drive away with the child in the boot.  Take a few back roads and there wouldn't be the manpower to set up enough roadblocks.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 08, 2019, 09:32:07 AM
Not sure of the timing. I would be looking in bins around the area if I was searching. But only within reasonable walking distance for a 3 year old.

Dispatches 2007 say between midnight and 4am.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 08, 2019, 09:36:44 AM
I did say that, to be fair, she wouldn't be walking far.
Besides, she would have been able to hear the frivolity at the Tapas Bar - pretty sure she could navigate that far.
The problem I could see her having is opening the door at the secondary reception.  Everyone assumes that door is held open so that a child can come and go. If it was closed she would be stuck out on the footpath without a way of opening that door (the clients needed a special card to unlock it as I understand).
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 08, 2019, 09:40:22 AM
The problem I could see her having is opening the door at the secondary reception.  Everyone assumes that door is held open so that a child can come and go. If it was closed she would be stuck out on the footpath without a way of opening that door (the clients needed a special card to unlock it as I understand).
I see what you're saying, but she wouldn't just give up and try to pop back to the apartment. She'd raise hell.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 08, 2019, 09:42:57 AM

I would think that scenario wouldn't work - if you didn't want the body to be connected back to you

You would need to get rid of it permanently - never to be found.

And then move it three weeks later.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 08, 2019, 09:46:03 AM
And then move it three weeks later.

The final solution.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 08, 2019, 09:47:35 AM
The final solution.

With The Press and The Family in tow.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: kizzy on May 08, 2019, 09:51:07 AM
You might be able to navigate your way back to the first dumping spot, but then what?


Find a more permanent place.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 08, 2019, 09:51:51 AM
With The Press and The Family in tow.
They weren't there following them 24 hours a day.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 08, 2019, 09:54:08 AM
They weren't there following them 24 hours a day.

The family will have known what they were doing.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 08, 2019, 09:54:47 AM
The problem I could see her having is opening the door at the secondary reception.  Everyone assumes that door is held open so that a child can come and go. If it was closed she would be stuck out on the footpath without a way of opening that door (the clients needed a special card to unlock it as I understand).
It isn't a card lock door.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: kizzy on May 08, 2019, 09:56:18 AM
And then move it three weeks later.

But we don't know it was moved -  three weeks later
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 08, 2019, 09:56:38 AM
The family will have known what they were doing.

That's just your opinion. Who was actually still there  weeks later ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 08, 2019, 10:09:03 AM
Ask the people who did it. after all- we don't know how much time they had could have been hours.
Please explain how there could have been hours?  Which hours?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 08, 2019, 10:11:02 AM

Find a more permanent place.
Yes, but in the dark, with no tools, no car and no local assistance, how? 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 08, 2019, 10:11:56 AM
The final solution.
More balls of steel. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 08, 2019, 10:16:18 AM
That's just your opinion. Who was actually still there  weeks later ?
Check out how much of the media was still present in PdL for the month of May 2007.  Look at news reports from that month.  And you think it's possible that the McCanns would have the steel nerve to retrieve a body they hid in the local environs and put it in the boot of their car and take a drive somewhere, right under the noses of the world's press? I think even bonafide psychopaths might think twice about carrying out such a risky operation.   
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: kizzy on May 08, 2019, 10:16:44 AM
Please explain how there could have been hours?  Which hours?

The early hours - when no one else was searching
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: kizzy on May 08, 2019, 10:17:18 AM
Yes, but in the dark, with no tools, no car and no local assistance, how?

Could be they didn't need tool/car assistance - just disposing of her permanently.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 08, 2019, 10:18:54 AM
Check out how much of the media was still present in PdL for the month of May 2007.  Look at news reports from that month.  And you think it's possible that the McCanns would have the steel nerve to retrieve a body they hid in the local environs and put it in the boot of their car and take a drive somewhere, right under the noses of the world's press? I think even bonafide psychopaths might think twice about carrying out such a risky operation.

My question to Eleanor related to family members, not media.
However, even the press weren't following them around 24 hours a day.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 08, 2019, 10:30:10 AM
Please explain how there could have been hours?  Which hours?

Have you any idea who turned up at Portimăo PJ station on 4th May?  Or how said person 'knew' they were allegedly running out of battery charge?  Who takes their mobile on holiday for a week and doesn't take their phone charger?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 08, 2019, 10:35:00 AM
Check out how much of the media was still present in PdL for the month of May 2007.  Look at news reports from that month.  And you think it's possible that the McCanns would have the steel nerve to retrieve a body they hid in the local environs and put it in the boot of their car and take a drive somewhere, right under the noses of the world's press? I think even bonafide psychopaths might think twice about carrying out such a risky operation.

The date the McCanns hired the car is a red herring.  They were in 4G at the time.  There was a dog search of 4G, with no alert.

The key date is when they moved to 27 Rua das Flores.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: kizzy on May 08, 2019, 10:38:57 AM
Check out how much of the media was still present in PdL for the month of May 2007.  Look at news reports from that month.  And you think it's possible that the McCanns would have the steel nerve to retrieve a body they hid in the local environs and put it in the boot of their car and take a drive somewhere, right under the noses of the world's press? I think even bonafide psychopaths might think twice about carrying out such a risky operation.

Well if they had the steel nerve to cover it up in the first place = IMO the rest would have been a lot easier.

Who said they would have had to drive anywhere - the golden hours were the hours after 10 till the morning.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 08, 2019, 11:46:57 AM
The early hours - when no one else was searching
How were the McCanns certain that no one was about searching? 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 08, 2019, 11:47:19 AM
Could be they didn't need tool/car assistance - just disposing of her permanently.
How?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 08, 2019, 11:48:06 AM
My question to Eleanor related to family members, not media.
However, even the press weren't following them around 24 hours a day.
It's highly risky behaviour though isn't it?  You think it's a credible theory? 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 08, 2019, 11:48:48 AM
Have you any idea who turned up at Portimăo PJ station on 4th May?  Or how said person 'knew' they were allegedly running out of battery charge?  Who takes their mobile on holiday for a week and doesn't take their phone charger?
I really don't understand what your question has got to do with my post, perhaps you could explain?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 08, 2019, 11:49:39 AM
The date the McCanns hired the car is a red herring.  They were in 4G at the time.  There was a dog search of 4G, with no alert.

The key date is when they moved to 27 Rua das Flores.
Again, no idea how you arrived at this answer to my post, sorry. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 08, 2019, 11:50:37 AM
I'd have to speak to Dr Christine Flaxman to ask her what was so important Jane Tanner contacted her while she was in PDL to answer that.

The text was before the 3rd
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 08, 2019, 11:50:50 AM
Well if they had the steel nerve to cover it up in the first place = IMO the rest would have been a lot easier.

Who said they would have had to drive anywhere - the golden hours were the hours after 10 till the morning.
So where is the body?  Within walking distance of PdL, in a place so well hidden it has not been found in 12 years. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 08, 2019, 11:51:17 AM
It's highly risky behaviour though isn't it?  You think it's a credible theory?

Why not? You obviously think it isn't. So we differ. What a surprise.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 08, 2019, 11:52:03 AM
I really don't understand what your question has got to do with my post, perhaps you could explain?

Local friends?

Pretty simple.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 08, 2019, 11:55:03 AM
Why not? You obviously think it isn't. So we differ. What a surprise.
I don't think it's credible that the McCanns would hide a body in Praia Da Luz, wait several weeks to hire a car, and whilst at the centre of the world's attention with the media crawling all over the holiday resort from which their child disappeared managed to a) retrieve the body and b) stick it in the boot of their car and c) drive it to another location and d) dispose of a body permanently.  All without detection, or even any evidence whatsoever to suggest that this is what happened.  So yes, we will have to differ on this one.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 08, 2019, 11:55:37 AM
Local friends?

Pretty simple.
Local friends what?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 08, 2019, 12:08:57 PM
The date the McCanns hired the car is a red herring.  They were in 4G at the time.  There was a dog search of 4G, with no alert.

The key date is when they moved to 27 Rua das Flores.

Where the dogs did not alert (cuddlecat  8**8:/:) Not even to the clothing laid out for their inspection.  That would be the same clothing the dogs later alerted to in the gymnasium.  Funny that.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 08, 2019, 12:33:17 PM
Local friends?

Pretty simple.

I'm sure my interpretation of your post must be wrong or are you suggesting you would assist holiday making friends to hide the body of one of their children?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 08, 2019, 12:37:44 PM
Why do you find that idea surprising, particularly among a small clique of like-minded professionals ?

It doesn't need to be all of them.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 08, 2019, 12:49:13 PM
Why do you find that idea surprising, particularly among a small clique of like-minded professionals ?

It doesn't need to be all of them.
Like-minded in what sense?  In the sense that they would all be likely to collude in covering up their own children's deaths?  Do you think this is something they had already established prior to the event maybe? 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 08, 2019, 12:57:27 PM
Local friends what?

OK, perhaps you did not read back through the relevant posts, so here is the KISS.

2 phones delivered to Portimăo on 4 May.

From whom and why?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 08, 2019, 12:57:55 PM
Like-minded in what sense?  In the sense that they would all be likely to collude in covering up their own children's deaths?  Do you think this is something they had already established prior to the event maybe?
I've ruminated on this many times.
Like-mindedness is not an adequate driver for complicity in a group - it would need to be a much stronger motivation than that.
The only 'logical' explanation I can muster is that either they didn't know what they were signing up to i.e. they were told Maddie's missing, let's all get our stories straight, or they all / some of them shat themselves because they all sedated their kids.*

*All opinions are the work of an addled mind, The General, are ludicrous and should be treated as such.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 08, 2019, 12:58:16 PM
Why do you find that idea surprising, particularly among a small clique of like-minded professionals ?

It doesn't need to be all of them.

I have no idea which post you are answering ... if it is mine ... is it your opinion that would it be the norm for a small clique of like-minded sceptics to do what you suggest?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 08, 2019, 01:00:43 PM
I have no idea which post you are answering ... if it is mine ... is it your opinion that would it be the norm for a small clique of like-minded sceptics to do what you suggest?
No. I would have packed a bag and foxtrot oscar down to the airport pronto. Or filled someone in. Or both.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 08, 2019, 01:01:41 PM
I've ruminated on this many times.
Like-mindedness is not an adequate driver for complicity in a group - it would need to be a much stronger motivation than that.
The only 'logical' explanation I can muster is that either they didn't know what they were signing up to i.e. they were told Maddie's missing, let's all get our stories straight, or they all / some of them shat themselves because they all sedated their kids.

I think you will struggle to find a logical reason.. I know quite, a, few young doctor families and can't imagine any of them sedating their children... It's ilogical... To suggest they all sedated their children us crazy
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 08, 2019, 01:02:41 PM
Where the dogs did not alert (cuddlecat  8**8:/:) Not even to the clothing laid out for their inspection.  That would be the same clothing the dogs later alerted to in the gymnasium.  Funny that.

I am not a 'fan' of the dog alerts, for many reasons.

I think the dogs alerted.  After that comes the interpretation.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 08, 2019, 01:06:27 PM
OK, perhaps you did not read back through the relevant posts, so here is the KISS.

2 phones delivered to Portimăo on 4 May.

From whom and why?
KISS?  No thanks.  What has any of this to do with my post which you first replied to which was
"Please explain how there could have been hours?  Which hours?"
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 08, 2019, 01:06:52 PM
I think you will struggle to find a logical reason.. I know quite, a, few young doctor families and can't imagine any of them sedating their children... It's ilogical... To suggest they all sedated their children us crazy
I just did. Two of them.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 08, 2019, 01:07:09 PM
I'm sure my interpretation of your post must be wrong or are you suggesting you would assist holiday making friends to hide the body of one of their children?

Nope.

Would I help out with a freezer, fridge or transport if a friend requested it?

Yes.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 08, 2019, 01:11:48 PM
I think you will struggle to find a logical reason.. I know quite, a, few young doctor families and can't imagine any of them sedating their children... It's ilogical... To suggest they all sedated their children us crazy
Hmm...so the motivation would be they were all sedating their kids with some sedative that would have to be illegal to give to children ie: not Calpol or Piriton as there could be perfectly good reasons for giving their kids that.  Do you think their regular checks were then predicated on the need to check their kids hadn't died because of the meds that had been administered or do you think that the regular checks never happened, despite reports from the Tapas staff to the contrary?  Any thoughts as to what this sedative might have been?

PS: I'm enjoying this complete and utter breakdown in the libel rules on this forum, isn't it fun?!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 08, 2019, 01:12:07 PM
Nope.

Would I help out with a freezer, fridge or transport if a friend requested it?

Yes.

In this situation would you now keep that knowledge  to yourself
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 08, 2019, 01:14:19 PM
In this situation would you now keep that knowledge  to yourself

What situation?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 08, 2019, 01:15:56 PM
What situation?
The situation where your friend has been accused of hiding his daughters body in a fridge... After you recently supplied him with one... If you don't infirm the police you are complicit
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 08, 2019, 01:24:17 PM
So where is the body?  Within walking distance of PdL, in a place so well hidden it has not been found in 12 years.

In that theory, I would search on the cliff face of Rocha Negra.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 08, 2019, 01:27:31 PM
The situation where your friend has been accused of hiding his daughters body in a fridge... After you recently supplied him with one... If you don't infirm the police you are complicit

What???
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 08, 2019, 01:49:59 PM
What???

Phone a friend...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 08, 2019, 01:51:55 PM
In that theory, I would search on the cliff face of Rocha Negra.
Why, did they have abseiling equipment? 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 08, 2019, 02:57:03 PM
Phone a friend...

The phones turned up sharpish on 4 May.  From a friend?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 08, 2019, 03:10:59 PM
The situation where your friend has been accused of hiding his daughters body in a fridge... After you recently supplied him with one... If you don't infirm the police you are complicit

And when did the body in fridge theory first surface?

Talk about double  &%%6
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 08, 2019, 03:14:29 PM
The phones turned up sharpish on 4 May.  From a friend?

I think the PJ know
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 08, 2019, 03:19:46 PM
I think the PJ know

Those 2 phones don't turn up in any of the Portuguese diligences, so you are grasping at straws,

Prove me wrong.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 08, 2019, 03:46:04 PM
Those 2 phones don't turn up in any of the Portuguese diligences, so you are grasping at straws,

Prove me wrong.

I couldn't be bothered  ...you are, welcome to believe any rubbish you wish... It's of no importance
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: niklasericson on May 08, 2019, 05:57:34 PM
So where is the body?  Within walking distance of PdL, in a place so well hidden it has not been found in 12 years.
I've a feeling that the body is not within walking distance.
A good idea could be to do a search in the Barragem da Bravura reservoir.(~15km)
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 08, 2019, 06:36:22 PM
I see what you're saying, but she wouldn't just give up and try to pop back to the apartment. She'd raise hell.
Which could attract attention of the wrong people.  With all the doors and buildings in between 9 people talking could drown out any cry for help.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 08, 2019, 06:39:07 PM
I've a feeling that the body is not within walking distance.
A good idea could be to do a search in the Barragem da Bravura reservoir.(~15km)
The PJ didn’t seem to think so.
https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/madeleine-mccann-mysterious-letter-claims-body-was-dumped-barragem-da-bravura-reservoir-1476441
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 08, 2019, 06:41:46 PM
It isn't a card lock door.
They were issued cards at the time of arrival, so what were they for?  How would anyone get through that door if it was closed  at 9:30 PM to stop people from the street wandering in and using the pool at night?  In videos we see the secondary reception manned but it didn't seem to be manned at nights before Madeleine went missing.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 08, 2019, 06:45:47 PM
I'd have to speak to Dr Christine Flaxman to ask her what was so important Jane Tanner contacted her while she was in PDL to answer that.
Is that covered in the podcast?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 08, 2019, 06:55:23 PM
I've a feeling that the body is not within walking distance.
A good idea could be to do a search in the Barragem da Bravura reservoir.(~15km)

The sourroundings were searched during the first week, along with the surface of the water.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 08, 2019, 07:17:23 PM
I've a feeling that the body is not within walking distance.
A good idea could be to do a search in the Barragem da Bravura reservoir.(~15km)

As far as I know, they did.   (Source : Mark Harrison)
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: niklasericson on May 08, 2019, 07:27:53 PM
The sourroundings were searched during the first week, along with the surface of the water.
Yes I know but they should do the search with divers.
PJ should borrow the sniffer dog "Cross" from the Swedish Police.
He found Kim Walls remains on the bottom of a stormy Baltic sea.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 08, 2019, 07:33:50 PM
Hmm...so the motivation would be they were all sedating their kids with some sedative that would have to be illegal to give to children ie: not Calpol or Piriton as there could be perfectly good reasons for giving their kids that.  Do you think their regular checks were then predicated on the need to check their kids hadn't died because of the meds that had been administered or do you think that the regular checks never happened, despite reports from the Tapas staff to the contrary?  Any thoughts as to what this sedative might have been?

PS: I'm enjoying this complete and utter breakdown in the libel rules on this forum, isn't it fun?!

The tapas staff did not bare witness to any parents checking the children- they only gave statements that some were leaving the table.

The checks were not regular as you suggest, the reason we know this is; they had to get together to create a timeline in a hurry for the police!. Yes, child stolen by sleazy paedos and here they are writing up a timeline... torn pages from their missing daughter book.OMG how heartless.

It was just sheer luck that the evening Maddie disappeared she  had two physical checks. 1 from loving doting father who saw her clearly as the door was open, but the mother couldn't see anything it was too dark even though the moving door was at the same openenss as Gerry left it...

I still think about their statements in disbelief. Dad saw her where he left her on top of the  covers as it was a warm night- Mun left her snuggled under the covers because it was cold... *%87 Gerry saw his daughter clearly, Kate claims it was too dark... *%87



Reminds me of that story goldielocks...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: niklasericson on May 08, 2019, 07:37:13 PM
As far as I know, they did.   (Source : Mark Harrison)
They only did a visual search of the surface.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 08, 2019, 07:43:36 PM
Yes I know but they should do the search with divers.
PJ should borrow the sniffer dog "Cross" from the Swedish Police.
He found Kim Walls remains on the bottom of a stormy Baltic sea.

I think they'd need a reason before they did that.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 08, 2019, 07:46:49 PM
They were issued cards at the time of arrival, so what were they for?  How would anyone get through that door if it was closed  at 9:30 PM to stop people from the street wandering in and using the pool at night?  In videos we see the secondary reception manned but it didn't seem to be manned at nights before Madeleine went missing.

OK

1 I have been there and there is no card lock on the door.  It has a simple you-lock-it with a key mechanism.

2 The Tapas was open to general members of the public.  Sorry, I can't remember which Tapas waiter stated this,

3 From memory, the Tapas receptionist clocked off at 5:30.  Much before anyone turned up for dinner..
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 08, 2019, 07:47:58 PM
Yes I know but they should do the search with divers.
PJ should borrow the sniffer dog "Cross" from the Swedish Police.
He found Kim Walls remains on the bottom of a stormy Baltic sea.

OH yes!  that would be interesting...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 08, 2019, 08:12:45 PM
They were issued cards at the time of arrival, so what were they for?  How would anyone get through that door if it was closed  at 9:30 PM to stop people from the street wandering in and using the pool at night?  In videos we see the secondary reception manned but it didn't seem to be manned at nights before Madeleine went missing.

They might have been meal tickets - show the card to 'pay' for your meals & wine allowance
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 08, 2019, 08:17:01 PM
They might have been meal tickets - show the card to 'pay' for your meals & wine allowance
Have you ever stayed in a hotel with meal tickets?  I’ve stayed in dozens around the world including all inclusive and never have.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 08, 2019, 08:18:37 PM
Have you ever stayed in a hotel with meal tickets?  I’ve stayed in dozens around the world including all inclusive and never have.

actually I have...particularly breakfast tickets.....
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 08, 2019, 08:29:29 PM
Have you ever stayed in a hotel with meal tickets?  I’ve stayed in dozens around the world including all inclusive and never have.

This was not a hotel.

Yes, I have had to show a card when in certain restaurants where the meal is already paid for.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 08, 2019, 08:30:17 PM
This was not a hotel.

Yes, I have had to show a card when in certain restaurants where the meal is already paid for.
OK, fair enough.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 08, 2019, 08:32:58 PM
Have you ever stayed in a hotel with meal tickets?  I’ve stayed in dozens around the world including all inclusive and never have.

Never in Italy but once in Greece where we had to wear ghastly little bracelets to show we were all inclusive.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 08, 2019, 08:34:19 PM
OK

1 I have been there and there is no card lock on the door.  It has a simple you-lock-it with a key mechanism.

2 The Tapas was open to general members of the public.  Sorry, I can't remember which Tapas waiter stated this,

3 From memory, the Tapas receptionist clocked off at 5:30.  Much before anyone turned up for dinner..
You could be right, so at 5:30 PM there is no receptionist there any longer.  Does the receptionist leave the door open or closed went she leaves.  I imagine it is left wide open held open with a hasp of some sort, but what happens if the manager doesn't like the people turning up and closes the door, does he latch it?  So people can leave but public can't get back in?

What I'm concerned about is even if the door was shut but not locked could Madeleine open it on her own?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 08, 2019, 08:44:37 PM
Never in Italy but once in Greece where we had to wear ghastly little bracelets to show we were all inclusive.

We've had those bracelets in Sharm and in Cuba.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 08, 2019, 08:47:22 PM
We've had those bracelets in Sharm and in Cuba.

Possibly they are necessary but for some reason they made me feel like I was back at school.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 08, 2019, 08:56:08 PM
Possibly they are necessary but for some reason they made me feel like I was back at school.

If I recall in Sharm paying extra got premium beer as opposed to their own,obviously different colourrd ones were in use.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: niklasericson on May 08, 2019, 09:09:15 PM
I think they'd need a reason before they did that.
Of course, it was a more of a hypothetical suggestion, but, I believe there could be a couple of good reasons to do so.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 08, 2019, 09:11:00 PM
Of course, it was a more of a hypothetical suggestion, but, I believe there could be a couple of good reasons to do so.

Oh please share...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 08, 2019, 09:13:28 PM
Oh please share...

yes please do
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: niklasericson on May 08, 2019, 11:07:08 PM
To make a longer story short.
We know that two persons who were together that evening gave different stories.
There's about ~20-30 minutes missing in the man's statement and he withheld that he was picking up a service vehicle at 21:00, a service vehicle should be a van or a pick up and then his partner said they went to their home in Lagos in separate cars but he withheld this information.
#The timing, no witnesses was around that area at this time.
#Why pick up a service vehicle after his work was done and withheld this information?
#Different stories, different timings.
#Only 15 minutes drive from Lagos to Barragem da Bravura.
#Access with cars all the way to the shoreline of Barragem da Bravura dam.
That's why should they do a deep search in this water, preferably in the area close to the dam.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 08, 2019, 11:11:40 PM
To make a longer story short.
We know that two persons who were together that evening gave different stories.
There's about ~20-30 minutes missing in the man's statement and he withheld that he was picking up a service vehicle at 21:00, a service vehicle should be a van or a pick up and then his partner said they went to their home in Lagos in separate cars but he withheld this information.
#The timing, no witnesses was around that area at this time.
#Why pick up a service vehicle after his work was done and withheld this information?
#Different stories, different timings.
#Only 15 minutes drive from Lagos to Barragem da Bravura.
#Access with cars all the way to the shoreline of Barragem da Bravura dam.
That's why should they do a deep search in this water, preferably in the area close to the dam.
Can you remind us of the names again please?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on May 09, 2019, 12:29:37 AM
To make a longer story short.
We know that two persons who were together that evening gave different stories.
There's about ~20-30 minutes missing in the man's statement and he withheld that he was picking up a service vehicle at 21:00, a service vehicle should be a van or a pick up and then his partner said they went to their home in Lagos in separate cars but he withheld this information.
#The timing, no witnesses was around that area at this time.
#Why pick up a service vehicle after his work was done and withheld this information?
#Different stories, different timings.
#Only 15 minutes drive from Lagos to Barragem da Bravura.
#Access with cars all the way to the shoreline of Barragem da Bravura dam.
That's why should they do a deep search in this water, preferably in the area close to the dam.


Wouldn't his cell phone have pinged a different tower if he'd travelled north to Barragem da Bravura?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 09, 2019, 12:43:28 AM
You could be right, so at 5:30 PM there is no receptionist there any longer.  Does the receptionist leave the door open or closed went she leaves.  I imagine it is left wide open held open with a hasp of some sort, but what happens if the manager doesn't like the people turning up and closes the door, does he latch it?  So people can leave but public can't get back in?

What I'm concerned about is even if the door was shut but not locked could Madeleine open it on her own?

If she made it that far, she was capable of opening a door.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 09, 2019, 12:47:22 AM

Wouldn't his cell phone have pinged a different tower if he'd travelled north to Barragem da Bravura?
Only if someone was looking for it.  There was something like 75,000 calls made during that period.  Were all the phones checked against the witness' alibis?  I personally doubt it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 09, 2019, 12:51:19 AM
Possibly they are necessary but for some reason they made me feel like I was back at school.

We never go all inclusive. The meals are invariably bad....especially if you’re a pescatarian......and there is so much delicious local food to discover why would you pay for substandard meals ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 09, 2019, 12:54:13 AM
If she made it that far, she was capable of opening a door.
Trouble is we can never confirm that.  Two things that we can't be sure of are:

1.  Whoever closed the door how did they leave it?  [Was it left locked, or just shut]

2.  How possible was it for a 3-4 year old to turn the door handle and open the door?  [from the photos I've seen the knob was large and round, a shape IMO would be difficult for a  child to grip onto.]
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on May 09, 2019, 12:56:27 AM
Only if someone was looking for it.  There was something like 75,000 calls made during that period.  Where all the phones checked against the witnesses alibis?  I personally doubt it.

If his phone pinged near OC during the time he was travelling to, attending job at OC or returning home around the time of Madeleine's disappearance then I would have expected his phone records to be checked by any half-decent police force. That's how the suspected burglars were located.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 09, 2019, 01:00:29 AM
We never go all inclusive. The meals are invariably bad....especially if you’re a pescatarian......and there is so much delicious local food to discover why would you pay for substandard meals ?

I.suppose it depends on the.quality of the hotel.
We usually holiday in Italy and sometimes it is all inclusive and sometimes not.
But invariably the food is excellent, certainly not substandard..
In fact there was one hotel in Malcesine where the food was utterly divine.
The quality of the food in Italy is  usually wonderful.
Apart from the worst pizza I have ever tasted which wasn't in a hotel but in a restaurant in Sorrento.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 09, 2019, 01:07:41 AM
If his phone pinged near OC during the time he was travelling to, attending job at OC or returning home around the time of Madeleine's disappearance then I would have expected his phone records to be checked by any half-decent police force. That's how the suspected burglars were located.
Did they have a narrow focus - on those particular people to start with?  Look, I'm sorry but I don't know how they did this analysis.

There are so many variables.  Phones can be present or absent, on or off.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on May 09, 2019, 01:08:43 AM
Trouble is we can never confirm that.  Two things that we can't be sure of are:

1.  Whoever closed the door how did they leave it?  [Was it left locked, or just shut]

2.  How possible was it for a 3-4 year old to turn the door handle and open the door?  [from the photos I've seen the knob was large and round, a shape IMO would be difficult for a  child to grip onto.]

The door does not open by turning the knob, it opens by pulling the latch lever to the left. The metal knob on the door interior houses the lock for the dead-latch which is activated or deactivated by a key.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 09, 2019, 01:10:13 AM
I.suppose it depends on the.quality of the hotel.
We usually holiday in Italy and sometimes it is all inclusive and sometimes not.
But invariably the food is excellent, certainly not substandard..
In fact there was one hotel in Malcesine where the food was utterly divine.
The quality of the food in Italy is  usually wonderful

Horses for courses I suppose. I prefer to eat local dishes in local restaurants when abroad...you discover so much more about the food of the region and its history.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 09, 2019, 01:11:34 AM
The door does not open by turning the knob, it opens by pulling the latch lever to the left. The metal knob on the door interior houses the lock for the dead-latch which is activated or deactivated by a key.
You are thinking of the wrong door at this stage.  SIL and myself are talking about the door at the Secondary Reception.  Not the front door of the apartment 5A.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 09, 2019, 01:14:30 AM
Horses for courses I suppose. I prefer to eat local dishes in local restaurants when abroad...you discover so much more about the food of the region and its history.

Yes, we do that too.
As I said we don't always go all inclusive.
Just one particular hotel in Italy apart from one in Corfu which we only visited once.
In cities like Rome, Florence, Vienna  we always have gone out for meals.
Sometimes they have been excellent, other times not.
Wouldn't say the food we had in Budapest was very good.
Perhaps just a bad choice of restaurants. 8(8-))

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on May 09, 2019, 01:18:08 AM
Did they have a narrow focus - on those particular people to start with?  Look, I'm sorry but I don't know how they did this analysis.

There are so many variables.  Phones can be present or absent, on or off.

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MOBILE_PHONE_ANALYSIS.htm

There are also various pages in the original DVD section of the PJ files. IIRC the pages covering phone analysis 9.15-10pm on 3rd May were not included in the documents released.
Any phone fitted GPS chip did not not need to be turned on for movements to be tracked. Only the user turning off the tracking device would have prevented that.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on May 09, 2019, 01:23:01 AM
You are thinking of the wrong door at this stage.  SIL and myself are talking about the door at the Secondary Reception.  Not the front door of the apartment 5A.

Apologies, I hadn't read the discussion properly.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 09, 2019, 01:28:53 AM
Apologies, I hadn't read the discussion properly.
I did have a photo of the door but I'm struggling to relocate the photo show the big round door knob.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on May 09, 2019, 01:42:19 AM
This one which Shining took?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 09, 2019, 01:54:15 AM
This one which Shining took?
The door knob has been removed!  Now if that door is closed you'd need a key to open it.  What was the situation on the night of the 3rd May 2007?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on May 09, 2019, 02:28:38 AM
The door knob has been removed!  Now if that door is closed you'd need a key to open it.  What was the situation on the night of the 3rd May 2007?

Do you think the knob could have been a pressure sensor rather than a conventional door knob? I don't recall ever seeing a Upvc door which opens using a door knob.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 09, 2019, 02:52:09 AM
Do you think the knob could have been a pressure sensor rather than a conventional door knob? I don't recall ever seeing a Upvc door which opens using a door knob.
It could be either, but all I'm trying to find out is whether the door confused Madeleine in order to open the door.  Did she try and turn the door handle when in fact it didn't turn but just required pushing.

I've seen video of a bank robber trying to open the door to the bank after robbing it, pulling on the door but it was in fact a sliding door.  Something like that that confuses a child.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 09, 2019, 02:55:54 AM
https://youtu.be/cgstON22SbY   
Some doors need pulling and others need pushing!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 09, 2019, 08:14:01 AM
Horses for courses I suppose. I prefer to eat local dishes in local restaurants when abroad...you discover so much more about the food of the region and its history.

Wherever we stay we always go local for at least two days,Cairo was an eye opener.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 09, 2019, 08:19:24 AM
Wherever we stay we always go local for at least two days,Cairo was an eye opener.
My last break was to Germany and we ate out every night - Italian, Vietnamese, Vegan, it was great.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 09, 2019, 08:24:55 AM
My last break was to Germany and we ate out every night - Italian, Vietnamese, Vegan, it was great.

Don't you find that if you do eat in one very good restaurant it is tempting just to go back often rather than try a new place.
Been to Germany a couple of times, really enjoyed it!
Not Berlin though!
Would like to visit there.
Family have been and loved that city.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: niklasericson on May 09, 2019, 09:15:19 AM

Wouldn't his cell phone have pinged a different tower if he'd travelled north to Barragem da Bravura?
It's not easy to identify all the phone numbers in the files so I can't confirm or dismiss but according to his statement he was called in that evening to do a work, he was off duty this day, maybe he didn't brought his phone when he left home and this was around 20:30, how much battery was left in the phone after a day?
The cellphone batteries in 2007 wasn't top notch, you would be happy if the battery last for a entire day.
I will ask one of my contacts who have skills to trace phone numbers to a person.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: niklasericson on May 09, 2019, 11:40:41 AM
Update.
My contact has not been able to find any phone number in
the files that are connected to this guy.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 09, 2019, 12:27:33 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D6HfoI9XoAAIDBm?format=jpg&name=medium)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D6Hf3gcX4AAGr8_?format=png&name=small)
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 09, 2019, 12:55:25 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D6HfoI9XoAAIDBm?format=jpg&name=medium)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D6Hf3gcX4AAGr8_?format=png&name=small)

I'm not trying to be pedantic here, OK?

Most people think Rocha Negra is the entire cliff and cliff-top.  It isn't.  It means black rock, and refers to a volcanic lava stream from an eruption at Monchique a long, long time ago.

The bulk of that hill is a softish stone.  The cliff face often crumbles down in intense periods of rain.  Rocha Negra is made of much harder stuff and weathers any storm.

The top, the part that Kate ran to, has the trig point on it.  Close up, it is enormous, so one assumes it has foundations.  The top is also extensively cultivated.  And for further proof the top is not volcanic, look at Mark Harrison's statement.  An issue with his search was that between Madeleine's disappearance and the dog searches, a large old building had been removed.

You can see that building being removed on Google Earth, and it was indeed large.  I am trying to find its history, simply because it interests me.  However, a large building needs large foundations, and you don't do that on volcanic rock.  It was replaced by a large Boa Vista golf clubhouse.

I am not suprised Kate got it wrong, because most people do.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 09, 2019, 01:17:26 PM
Update.
My contact has not been able to find any phone number in
the files that are connected to this guy.

According to his statement he was phoned twice on 3rd, ar 20.30 and 22.15. Not on the Ocean Club's main line he wasn't. Not even once on his mobile number which began with 969 and ended in 044.

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P11/11_VOLUME_XIa_Page_3051.jpg
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 09, 2019, 01:23:48 PM
According to his statement he was phoned twice on 3rd, ar 20.30 and 22.15. Not on the Ocean Club's main line he wasn't. Not even once on his mobile number which began with 969 and ended in 044.

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P11/11_VOLUME_XIa_Page_3051.jpg

The plot thickens.

Should I get some popcorn on the go?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 09, 2019, 01:48:29 PM
I'm not trying to be pedantic here, OK?

Most people think Rocha Negra is the entire cliff and cliff-top.  It isn't.  It means black rock, and refers to a volcanic lava stream from an eruption at Monchique a long, long time ago.

The bulk of that hill is a softish stone.  The cliff face often crumbles down in intense periods of rain.  Rocha Negra is made of much harder stuff and weathers any storm.

The top, the part that Kate ran to, has the trig point on it.  Close up, it is enormous, so one assumes it has foundations.  The top is also extensively cultivated.  And for further proof the top is not volcanic, look at Mark Harrison's statement.  An issue with his search was that between Madeleine's disappearance and the dog searches, a large old building had been removed.

You can see that building being removed on Google Earth, and it was indeed large.  I am trying to find its history, simply because it interests me.  However, a large building needs large foundations, and you don't do that on volcanic rock.  It was replaced by a large Boa Vista golf clubhouse.

I am not suprised Kate got it wrong, because most people do.

Thanks for the info. If you want to hide something you have to put it in a hard place to find i.e. the actual cliff face on Rocha Negra. The next time you go there could you please take some shots from the top looking down the cliff face. Thank you.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 09, 2019, 02:02:29 PM
Thanks for the info. If you want to hide something you have to put it in a hard place to find i.e. the actual cliff face on Rocha Negra. The next time you go there could you please take some shots from the top looking down the cliff face. Thank you.

A couple of teenagers fell to their death from the top, maybe 18 months ago.  So no.

I have promised my 3 year-old grandson to see the rock pools on Luz beach, so when I get around to that promise, I will take my camera to snap some photos from the ground upwards.  I hope that will fill your request.

If one ascends Kate's likely route to the top, around half way up, there is what looks like a small, old mine-shaft.  It was fenced off the last time I saw it.  I have no idea what it looked like in 2007.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 09, 2019, 02:16:06 PM
The plot thickens.

Should I get some popcorn on the go?

That's two people supposedly phoned by Helder Luis who weren't called using the offical line. Perhaps he was using a different phone. (The other one was Vitor Santos)
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 09, 2019, 02:43:28 PM
That's two people supposedly phoned by Helder Luis who weren't called using the offical line. Perhaps he was using a different phone. (The other one was Vitor Santos)

OK.

I reported one 'missing' phone call from Helder to OG perhaps 2 and a half years back.

I didn't realise there were two.

Should I get more popcorn?

Mind you, my doggie is mithering me for a walkie.  And he knows how to boss me about.

 &^^&*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: niklasericson on May 09, 2019, 05:18:12 PM
According to his statement he was phoned twice on 3rd, ar 20.30 and 22.15. Not on the Ocean Club's main line he wasn't. Not even once on his mobile number which began with 969 and ended in 044.

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P11/11_VOLUME_XIa_Page_3051.jpg
Did you find his mobile number?
His phone number in the files, registered by PJ is masked but it is a 9 digit number so that should be a landline number.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 09, 2019, 05:56:58 PM
Did you find his mobile number?
His phone number in the files, registered by PJ is masked but it is a 9 digit number so that should be a landline number.

I thought mobiles began with 9 and landlines with 2?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: niklasericson on May 09, 2019, 06:09:13 PM
I thought mobiles began with 9 and landlines with 2?
Yes, but did you find any number that belonged to him?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 09, 2019, 06:25:53 PM
Yes, but did you find any number that belonged to him?

Not the complete number. As I said, just the first 3 and last 3 numbers of what I think was his mobile number.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 09, 2019, 07:13:33 PM
A couple of teenagers fell to their death from the top, maybe 18 months ago.  So no.

I have promised my 3 year-old grandson to see the rock pools on Luz beach, so when I get around to that promise, I will take my camera to snap some photos from the ground upwards.  I hope that will fill your request.

If one ascends Kate's likely route to the top, around half way up, there is what looks like a small, old mine-shaft.  It was fenced off the last time I saw it.  I have no idea what it looked like in 2007.

That would be great, thanks.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 10, 2019, 03:46:55 PM
I never thought I'd hear a journalist come right out and say they don't believe Madeleine was abducted and that they believe she died in apartment 5A Until Mark S done just that.  &%%6

The McCanns must be hoping this isn't a sign of things to come.

He said that there was a lot of information that he couldn’t broadcast for legal reasons. That information has obviously contributed to his opinion of the case. I wonder what it was ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 10, 2019, 04:04:25 PM
I never thought I'd hear a journalist come right out and say they don't believe Madeleine was abducted and that they believe she died in apartment 5A Until Mark S done just that.  &%%6

The McCanns must be hoping this isn't a sign of things to come.

If she was killed in 5a by an intruder then she wasn't abducted..

Mark S basically believes everything amaral and Pat brown has said... He doesn't have a decent grasp of the facts in this case ...Pat brown says everything  she claims is backed by evidence... It isn't... If it was she would have no fear of being sued
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 10, 2019, 04:05:42 PM
He said that there was a lot of information that he couldn’t broadcast for legal reasons. That information has obviously contributed to his opinion of the case. I wonder what it was ?

If the other information was backed by evidence he would have no fear of being sued... He has a poor grasp of the important  facts
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: kizzy on May 10, 2019, 04:37:34 PM
If the other information was backed by evidence he would have no fear of being sued... He has a poor grasp of the important  facts


Well Mark certainly nails his colours to the mast at the end

MS has a poor grasp of the important facts - that's just your opinion


let's face it  MS has a lot more shout than what you have - D your just a poster on a forum with an opinion.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 10, 2019, 04:39:52 PM

Well Mark certainly nails his colours to the mast at the end

MS has a poor grasp of the important facts - that's just your opinion


let's face it  MS has a lot more shout than what you have - D your just a poster on a forum with an opinion.

He has very little to no shout...he's been writing about the case for several years... He will simply fade back into obscurity..
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 10, 2019, 04:41:29 PM

Well Mark certainly nails his colours to the mast at the end

MS has a poor grasp of the important facts - that's just your opinion


let's face it  MS has a lot more shout than what you have - D your just a poster on a forum with an opinion.

He doesn't nail his colours to the mast he chickens out...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 10, 2019, 04:44:08 PM
He believes what he believes in the same way that you believe you have a grasp of the facts better than anyone else. Not IMO you don't, that's yours.

I do have a better grasp of the facts..
He says the dogs have been involved in 200 cases... I say they haven't... He's wrong... I'm right
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: kizzy on May 10, 2019, 04:46:47 PM
He has very little to no shout...he's been writing about the case for several years... He will simply fade back into obscurity..



...he's been writing about the case for several years


So he is well experienced and knows what he is talking about - who knows what inside knowledge he could have.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 10, 2019, 04:48:58 PM


...he's been writing about the case for several years


So he is well experienced and knows what he is talking about - who knows what inside knowledge he could have.
He doesn't understand  the basics... He was quoting amaral saying the shutters couldn't be opened from the outside... He was wring on that too... There, loads
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 10, 2019, 04:49:56 PM
You think you do, not IMO you don't.

I know I do because I know what the established  facts are..
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 10, 2019, 04:55:18 PM
If his podcasts are so good where are the comments on episode ten on this thread
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: kizzy on May 10, 2019, 05:02:46 PM
If his podcasts are so good where are the comments on episode ten on this thread

some here from twitter if you want to read comments.


Some comments on twitter...



Mark Saunokonoko‏Verified account @saunokonoko · 6m6 minutes ago



Replying to @Emma[Name removed]W

All the talk of DNA-17 in this case = smokescreen. Just email all the digital data to a Pittsburgh lab, and wait for two weeks. It's what a NSW prosecutor did in a quintuple murder case and, voila, they got their guy who had avoided justice in 2 earlier trials #McCann


Exceptional work from @saunokonoko who clearly has justice for poor Maddie at the top of his agenda. Can the same be said of others? Justice for Maddie #McCann


I'm listening to @saunokonoko's latest Maddie podcast!. my immediate thought is, why the **** hasn't any UK journalists had the balls to do what Mark has done?.






Absolutely. Captivating. Huge congrats has to go to @saunokonoko, @DanMcHugh and @kingymoments (among many others). This podcast sparked an international conversation and could still help lead to answers. What an achievement. #Maddie #MadeleineMcCann




At last after 12 years a journalist with some balls! #McCann
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 10, 2019, 05:06:07 PM
some here from twitter if you want to read comments.


Some comments on twitter...



Mark Saunokonoko‏Verified account @saunokonoko · 6m6 minutes ago



Replying to @Emma[Name removed]W

All the talk of DNA-17 in this case = smokescreen. Just email all the digital data to a Pittsburgh lab, and wait for two weeks. It's what a NSW prosecutor did in a quintuple murder case and, voila, they got their guy who had avoided justice in 2 earlier trials #McCann


Exceptional work from @saunokonoko who clearly has justice for poor Maddie at the top of his agenda. Can the same be said of others? Justice for Maddie #McCann


I'm listening to @saunokonoko's latest Maddie podcast!. my immediate thought is, why the **** hasn't any UK journalists had the balls to do what Mark has done?.






Absolutely. Captivating. Huge congrats has to go to @saunokonoko, @DanMcHugh and @kingymoments (among many others). This podcast sparked an international conversation and could still help lead to answers. What an achievement. #Maddie #MadeleineMcCann




At last after 12 years a journalist with some balls! #McCann

From the sceptic faithful
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: kizzy on May 10, 2019, 05:21:16 PM
From the sceptic faithful


You're no better - you just pour petrol on the fire your just a supporter on a forum.

Do you think the mccs will look at you any different to a sceptic.










Suporters who claim to support the McCann's clearly attempt to provoke more and more outrageous comments from their opponents. Once they succeed they then re-post these comments in a forlorn attempt to claim the moral high ground. These McCann supporters also cherry pick items from the evidence and claim it "proves" their point while at the same time ignoring evidence that suggests the opposite. They insult anyone who questions their opinion
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 10, 2019, 05:24:25 PM

You're no better - you just pour petrol on the fire your just a supporter on a forum.

Do you think the mccs will look at you any different to a sceptic.










Suporters who claim to support the McCann's clearly attempt to provoke more and more outrageous comments from their opponents. Once they succeed they then re-post these comments in a forlorn attempt to claim the moral high ground. These McCann supporters also cherry pick items from the evidence and claim it "proves" their point while at the same time ignoring evidence that suggests the opposite. They insult anyone who questions their opinion

Not sure which sceptic forum that's cut and pasted from... But that's all it is.. Sceptic propaganda
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 10, 2019, 05:27:11 PM
Ms... Brown... Amaral etc can hold any opinion the wish... But to claim their opinions are supported by evidence shows how little they understand  the evidence
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: kizzy on May 10, 2019, 05:33:38 PM
Not sure which sceptic forum that's cut and pasted from... But that's all it is.. Sceptic propaganda


IMO Just showing you supporters propaganda - if you really thought them innocent why come on here.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 10, 2019, 05:34:31 PM
I know I do because I know what the established  facts are..

You've missed your calling then if you're not part of OG.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 10, 2019, 05:35:52 PM
Looks like the sceptics are a little upset
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: kizzy on May 10, 2019, 05:39:02 PM
Looks like the sceptics are a little upset

See what I mean - it would take more than you to upset me D
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 10, 2019, 05:41:06 PM
The title of the tread is the podcasts... But I do understand  there's very little worthy of discussion
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 10, 2019, 05:44:19 PM
The title of the tread is the podcasts... But I do understand  there's very little worthy of discussion

150 pages,2250 post's, things can't be rushed you know.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 10, 2019, 05:46:47 PM
150 pages,2250 post's, things can't be rushed you know.

Lots if posts... But in the latest podcast... Next to nothing..
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: kizzy on May 10, 2019, 05:48:44 PM
The title of the tread is the podcasts... But I do understand  there's very little worthy of discussion


Again just your opinion



Episode 10 out NOW - 'May 3' https://www.9news.com.au/maddie #McCann #Maddie






Mark's twitter feed -  easy to listen just click on it on his link here

https://twitter.com/saunokonoko
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 10, 2019, 06:05:19 PM
If she was killed in 5a by an intruder then she wasn't abducted..

Mark S basically believes everything amaral and Pat brown has said... He doesn't have a decent grasp of the facts in this case ...Pat brown says everything  she claims is backed by evidence... It isn't... If it was she would have no fear of being sued
No only that but he also gets some of his info from the tw..s on twitter hashtag #mcann, the ones who are on there everyday spreading myths and lies and hatred.  He thinks they are marvellous receptacles of da troof. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 10, 2019, 06:34:54 PM
He said that there was a lot of information that he couldn’t broadcast for legal reasons. That information has obviously contributed to his opinion of the case. I wonder what it was ?

Indeed!
And you believe he has a lot of information which is unknown to the current investigation by two police forces?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 10, 2019, 11:03:11 PM
He said that there was a lot of information that he couldn’t broadcast for legal reasons. That information has obviously contributed to his opinion of the case. I wonder what it was ?

Yes I wonder also.


The guy tried to get the other side of the story and to ask probably awkward questions.  It all seems to have clammed up on him. Everyone is silent... especially when Paedophilia is mentioned.

A complete disservice to the memory of MBM. Madeliene the REAL victim in all this.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 11, 2019, 12:10:25 AM
Indeed!
And you believe he has a lot of information which is unknown to the current investigation by two police forces?

No if I was to hazard a guess it would be that OG/PJ know most of the information.....and as things stand just now we don’t know what effect that information has had on the investigations.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 11, 2019, 07:16:24 AM
No if I was to hazard a guess it would be that OG/PJ know most of the information.....and as things stand just now we don’t know what effect that information has had on the investigations.
Well we know they are looking at a German paedo, Amaral said so, remember?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: kizzy on May 11, 2019, 07:34:12 AM
Well we know they are looking at a German paedo, Amaral said so, remember?

Yes, he did - also to make the German a scapegoat.

 Goncalo Amaral was asked outright if he had changed his theory - or opinion what had happened to Maddie

He says his theory remains the same as detailed in his book.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 11, 2019, 07:52:40 AM
Yes, he did - also to make the German a scapegoat.

 Goncalo Amaral was asked outright if he had changed his theory - or opinion what had happened to Maddie

He says his theory remains the same as detailed in his book.
If that’s the case then he’s a bigger numpty than I ever thought possible.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 11, 2019, 08:07:36 AM
If that’s the case then he’s a bigger numpty than I ever thought possible.

Still nothing to prove him wrong,hmmm.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 11, 2019, 08:16:01 AM

Can we cut the, "Hmms" please.  I consider this to be Goading and Unnecessary.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 11, 2019, 08:18:46 AM
Still nothing to prove him wrong,hmmm.
And that is the only reason that allows him to carry on with his TV appearances and media interviews.  He has a vested interest in never being proved wrong. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 11, 2019, 08:28:18 AM
Can we cut the, "Hmms" please.  I consider this to be Goading and Unnecessary.

Use the force Luke,you have the power to edit.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 11, 2019, 08:29:00 AM
Use the force Luke,you have the power to edit.
As do you Darth.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 11, 2019, 08:30:24 AM
And that is the only reason that allows him to carry on with his TV appearances and media interviews.  He has a vested interest in never being proved wrong.

Perhaps he's waiting for a credible alternative to emerge the latest nonsense clearly isn't that,best imo that I suppose.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: kizzy on May 11, 2019, 08:36:08 AM
If that’s the case then he’s a bigger numpty than I ever thought possible.


Well, let's not forget - he is not the one responsible for Maddie's well being.

He wasn't the one who took his children -  on an adult holiday

As for him being a numpty - why just because he doesn't believe Maddie was abducted.

Plus believes - mccns involved in Maddie's disappearance.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 11, 2019, 08:39:20 AM

Well, let's not forget - he is not the one responsible for Maddie's well being.

He wasn't the one who took his children -  on an adult holiday

As for him being a numpty - why just because he doesn't believe Maddie was abducted.

Plus believes - mccns involved in Maddie's disappearance.
Strawman, strawman, because his theory is pants.  In that order.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: kizzy on May 11, 2019, 08:48:21 AM
Strawman, strawman, because his theory is pants.  In that order.


Oh please - whatever is that suppose to mean VS
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 11, 2019, 08:58:19 AM
Mr de Almeida also complained that Portuguese police efforts to investigate the McCanns had been frustrated by their British counterparts. “We were told that the UK would not accept any investigation of the McCanns – there was a lack of cooperation,” he said.

But later he said that the theory that the parents had covered up Madeleine’s death as outlined in Amaral’s book was one reached by British police on the ground in Portugal too.

“This wasn’t something invented by Amaral,” he insisted. “It was a conclusion reached by the team of Portuguese investigators as well as British police.”

A third witness said the turning point of the investigation came following a tearful call from Mrs McCann who, after a dream, told police where to search for her daughter’s body.

Police Inspector Ricardo Paiva, who acted as a liason between the McCanns and Portuguese police in the days following their daughter’s disappearance told the court he had received the phone call in late July 2007.

“Kate called me, she was alone as Gerry was away and she was crying,” he said. “She said she had dreamt that Madeleine was on a hill and that we should search for her there.

“She gave the impression that she thought she was dead – it was a turning point for us.”

The senior detective said the land was searched but nothing was found. “That is when we decided to send the specialist dogs in. British police informed us about how they could detect the scent of death.”

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/portugal/6974917/Madeleine-McCanns-death-covered-up-by-parents-who-faked-kidnap-court-hears.html
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 11, 2019, 10:06:32 AM
Mr de Almeida also complained that Portuguese police efforts to investigate the McCanns had been frustrated by their British counterparts. “We were told that the UK would not accept any investigation of the McCanns – there was a lack of cooperation,” he said.

But later he said that the theory that the parents had covered up Madeleine’s death as outlined in Amaral’s book was one reached by British police on the ground in Portugal too.

“This wasn’t something invented by Amaral,” he insisted. “It was a conclusion reached by the team of Portuguese investigators as well as British police.”

A third witness said the turning point of the investigation came following a tearful call from Mrs McCann who, after a dream, told police where to search for her daughter’s body.

Police Inspector Ricardo Paiva, who acted as a liason between the McCanns and Portuguese police in the days following their daughter’s disappearance told the court he had received the phone call in late July 2007.

“Kate called me, she was alone as Gerry was away and she was crying,” he said. “She said she had dreamt that Madeleine was on a hill and that we should search for her there.

“She gave the impression that she thought she was dead – it was a turning point for us.”

The senior detective said the land was searched but nothing was found. “That is when we decided to send the specialist dogs in. British police informed us about how they could detect the scent of death.”

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/portugal/6974917/Madeleine-McCanns-death-covered-up-by-parents-who-faked-kidnap-court-hears.html

By Fiona Govan in Lisbon10:30PM GMT 12 Jan 2010
Update 22 July 2015: The article below was first published in 2010 and the information in it relates to information that was current at that time. For the most up to date information, please refer to this article on the ongoing search for Maddy.

Has Mark Saunokonoko's series of podcasts done anything at all but regurgitate and highlight the huge errors made in the conduct of Madeleine's case from the very start.

What is the point of this resurrection of the sheer and utter balderdash spouted by the very flawed character whose job it was to investigate what had happened to Madeleine but failed miserably.

It serves only to remind us of the useless waste of resources which were concentrated on really weird suppositions long ago dismissed as ramblings of incompetence ... and all in the midst of two properly conducted police investigations taking place now mainly because of the initial mismanagement and misdirection of 2007. 

Saunononoko's podcast attempt to give credence to Amaral's balderdash is really quite bizarre particularly as not one iota of which has been confirmed in the slightest way.

Did he ask any in depth questions of Amaral about the mechanics of how his latest theory of the old lady + the church + the crematorium was carried out ... or is that so patently ludicrous it has been airbrushed out?



http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9646.msg468509#msg468509
“The cadaver was frozen”

Correio da Manhă - What do you think happened to the body?

Gonçalo Amaral – Everything indicated that the body, after having been at a certain location, was moved into another location by car, twenty something days later. With the residues that were found inside the car, the little girl had to have been transported inside it.

How can you state that?

Due to the type of fluid, we policemen, experts, say that the cadaver was frozen or preserved in the cold and when placed into the car boot, with the heat at that time [of the year], part of the ice melted. On a curb, for example, something fell from the trunk’s right side, above the wheel. It may be said that this is speculation, but it’s the only way to explain what happened there.

https://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2008/07/interview-with-gonalo-amaral-cadaver.html

I don't know where all his interviews have disappeared to. I can't find a media interview in which he was asked what his next steps would have been if he'd not been taken off the case. His reply was to carry on hunting for the fridge / freezer and to get the Smiths back over. (In a later amendment of that that I posted a month or two ago, in the end he was only interested getting Martin over.)

The one I have in mind dates back to around the time of his promo tour. The nearest for the moment is this (a summary of a recent interview):

Amaral believes the only possible way her body could have been in the rental car was if it was frozen. If not, that would not explain the presence of bodily fluids, as they could have occurred if the body had begun to thaw.

Upon being asked where they could have kept a supposed freezer, Amaral says the police had information from witnesses that the couple had gone several times to another apartment in the area, located near the cemetery. Amaral had been trying to find which apartment it was around October, when he was taken off the case.


https://www.reddit.com/r/UnresolvedMysteries/comments/6l2n9g/unresolved_disappearance_10_years_later_former/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUHp85TyJ0Y

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: kizzy on May 11, 2019, 10:10:32 AM
MS talks about reading the emails back and forth between police -  re the reconstruction from Tapas 7 

AND them not attending and he can't help wondering - where was the concern for Maddie was in all of this'

Well IMO - that sounds about right - no concern at all.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 11, 2019, 10:23:00 AM
MS talks about reading the emails back and forth between police -  re the reconstruction from Tapas 7 

AND them not attending and he can't help wondering - where was the concern for Maddie was in all of this'

Well IMO - that sounds about right - no concern at all.

   ... and my how the world has moved on since 2007 ... there is a genuine attempt by two national police forces to find out what happened to Madeleine way back then and with any luck to recover her now.

I doubt if today's investigators give anything more than a sigh when ... if ever ... thinking about the investigative mistakes of the past.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 11, 2019, 10:32:37 AM
deleted
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: kizzy on May 11, 2019, 10:46:38 AM
   ... and my how the world has moved on since 2007 ... there is a genuine attempt by two national police forces to find out what happened to Madeleine way back then and with any luck to recover her now.

I doubt if today's investigators give anything more than a sigh when ... if ever ... thinking about the investigative mistakes of the past.

Oh B - but has it moved on since 2007

No further on IMO.- still don't know what happened to Maddie

It could be that investigative mistakes in the past - could be the reason for that.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 11, 2019, 11:35:07 AM
MS talks about reading the emails back and forth between police -  re the reconstruction from Tapas 7 

AND them not attending and he can't help wondering - where was the concern for Maddie was in all of this'

Well IMO - that sounds about right - no concern at all.

Yes, that is the elephant in the room. it is the same on here support the parents never question them. Nothing about what happened to Maddie. In Fact the chosen mantra is and has been she came to no harm.. yes. really.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: kizzy on May 11, 2019, 12:07:05 PM
Yes, that is the elephant in the room. it is the same on here support the parents never question them. Nothing about what happened to Maddie. In Fact the chosen mantra is and has been she came to no harm.. yes. really.


Seems the stance is imo - does it matter what happened Maddie as long as mccs don't get the blame.

Just blame GA or anyone who does not believe in the abduction.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 11, 2019, 12:12:00 PM

Seems the stance is imo - does it matter what happened Maddie as long as mccs don't get the blame.

Just blame GA or anyone who does not believe in the abduction.
I think Maddie is almost certainly dead....whats important is to find out what happened to her and bring the perpertrator to justice...I trust SY is the best option fot that
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 11, 2019, 12:22:11 PM
Oh B - but has it moved on since 2007

No further on IMO.- still don't know what happened to Maddie

It could be that investigative mistakes in the past - could be the reason for that.

I think investigative mistakes of the past probably played a decisive role in the failure of the investigation to find out what happened to Madeleine.

Why revisit them on a podcast ... don't you think both current investigations may have learned from them at the review stage they both undertook which enabled ... and necessitated progression to re-investigation?

I don't think 2007 was the Policia Judiciaria's finest year ... particularly when considering the squandering of the golden hours of Madeleine's disappearance.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 11, 2019, 12:25:26 PM

Seems the stance is imo - does it matter what happened Maddie as long as mccs don't get the blame.

Just blame GA or anyone who does not believe in the abduction.

That is quite a ludicrous statement which would be more at home in the 'sceptic beliefs' thread.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 11, 2019, 12:27:09 PM
Yes, that is the elephant in the room. it is the same on here support the parents never question them. Nothing about what happened to Maddie. In Fact the chosen mantra is and has been she came to no harm.. yes. really.

Another one surely, for the 'sceptic beliefs' thread.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: kizzy on May 11, 2019, 12:46:20 PM
That is quite a ludicrous statement which would be more at home in the 'sceptic beliefs' thread.

Not as ludicrous statement as yours B - I answered the post on here because it wasn't on the sceptic thread
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 11, 2019, 01:14:30 PM
I think Maddie is almost certainly dead....whats important is to find out what happened to her and bring the perpertrator to justice...I trust SY is the best option fot that

All depends doesn't it,lets say the perpetrator/s live in Portugal how are sy best placed to find them.Its suggested that OG have passed information on to the PJ regarding some paedo in Germany,which clearly shows if true that its a PJ case,SY have to be extremely careful on anything they find and how its presented,a proper defence lawyer would soon raise any issues if it were to ever get to court.All imo of course.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 11, 2019, 01:26:02 PM
All depends doesn't it,lets say the perpetrator/s live in Portugal how are sy best placed to find them.Its suggested that OG have passed information on to the PJ regarding some paedo in Germany,which clearly shows if true that its a PJ case,SY have to be extremely careful on anything they find and how its presented,a proper defence lawyer would soon raise any issues if it were to ever get to court.All imo of course.
Of course it's a PJ case with SY doing the investigation.. The fact they've asked for 12 months shows they still have ideas
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: kizzy on May 11, 2019, 02:08:06 PM
Of course it's a PJ case with SY doing the investigation.. The fact they've asked for 12 months shows they still have ideas

Ideas Ideas - 12 million and it's down to having ideas.

They still haven't any idea -  what happened to Maddie

If they get the funding then will it be -  I have a good idea what we can do next
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 11, 2019, 02:24:49 PM
Ideas Ideas - 12 million and it's down to having ideas.

They still haven't any idea -  what happened to Maddie

If they get the funding then will it be -  I have a good idea what we can do next

Of course they have an idea what happened to Maddie.

She was abducted/murdered/wandered off... then got abducted.
A black guy dunnit/burglars took her, or maybe they didn't.
She might be alive, or maybe dead.
Plenty of ideas, well worth 12 million quid imo.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 11, 2019, 02:27:14 PM
Ideas Ideas - 12 million and it's down to having ideas.

They still haven't any idea -  what happened to Maddie

If they get the funding then will it be -  I have a good idea what we can do next

What happened to Maddie is the question SY are trying to answer... A question sceptics such as yourself don't seem to want  answered... I want justice for Maddie... SY are her best chance
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: kizzy on May 11, 2019, 03:38:43 PM
What happened to Maddie is the question SY are trying to answer... A question sceptics such as yourself don't seem to want  answered... I want justice for Maddie... SY are her best chance

I think if that was the case they would have started the investigation from - the night Maddie went missing.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 11, 2019, 04:35:33 PM
I think if that was the case they would have started the investigation from - the night Maddie went missing.

What leads you to believe they didn't?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 11, 2019, 04:36:07 PM
I think if that was the case they would have started the investigation from - the night Maddie went missing.

From what I've read they did... And decided the patents weren't involved... The Portuguese confirmed there no evidence against them...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 11, 2019, 05:34:26 PM

Oh please - whatever is that suppose to mean VS
Surely not too difficult to work out.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 11, 2019, 05:35:48 PM
Yes, that is the elephant in the room. it is the same on here support the parents never question them. Nothing about what happened to Maddie. In Fact the chosen mantra is and has been she came to no harm.. yes. really.
The chosen mantra by whom?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 11, 2019, 05:39:13 PM
Of course they have an idea what happened to Maddie.

She was abducted/murdered/wandered off... then got abducted.
A black guy dunnit/burglars took her, or maybe they didn't.
She might be alive, or maybe dead.
Plenty of ideas, well worth 12 million quid imo.
Yeah they should have just strung up the McCanns in 2007 think of the money saved.  Who cares about the truth anyway, it’s way too difficult and costly to get to so may as well not bother.  And they say supporters don’t care what happened to Madeliene...  8(8-))
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 11, 2019, 05:43:36 PM
Yeah they should have just strung up the McCanns in 2007 think of the money saved.  Who cares about the truth anyway, it’s way too difficult and costly to get to so may as well not bother.  And they say supporters don’t care what happened to Madeliene...  8(8-))

How do you know the truth isn't that the parents dunnit?
They might have done.In which case it would have been right to string them up in the first instance.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: kizzy on May 11, 2019, 06:00:40 PM
What leads you to believe they didn't?

What leads you to believe they did.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: kizzy on May 11, 2019, 06:01:06 PM
Surely not too difficult to work out for a clever sausage like you?

Suppose - snag is though I'm not a sausage,

Damn - seems now ill never know.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: kizzy on May 11, 2019, 06:03:34 PM
Another one surely, for the 'sceptic beliefs' thread.


Not really - seems MS is a bit of a sceptic

IMO he doesn't believe Maddie was abducted.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 11, 2019, 06:12:06 PM
How do you know the truth isn't that the parents dunnit?
They might have done.In which case it would have been right to string them up in the first instance.
If you’d simply strung them up in the first instance then you’d never know if they dunnit or not, nor what became of Madeleine.  I suppose that wouldn’t bother you in the slightest though...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 11, 2019, 06:43:26 PM
If you’d simply strung them up in the first instance then you’d never know if they dunnit or not, nor what became of Madeleine.  I suppose that wouldn’t bother you in the slightest though...
Is the comment "I suppose that wouldn’t bother you in the slightest though.."  an ad hominem argument?

Wikipedia has this as a definition of "ad hominem fallacy" "Ad hominem (Latin for "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.[2] The terms ad mulierem[3] and ad feminam[4] have been used specifically when the person receiving the criticism is female.

However, its original meaning was an argument "calculated to appeal to the person addressed more than to impartial reason".[5]"
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 11, 2019, 06:53:47 PM
Is the comment "I suppose that wouldn’t bother you in the slightest though.."  an ad hominem argument?

Wikipedia has this as a definition of "ad hominem fallacy" "Ad hominem (Latin for "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.[2] The terms ad mulierem[3] and ad feminam[4] have been used specifically when the person receiving the criticism is female.

However, its original meaning was an argument "calculated to appeal to the person addressed more than to impartial reason".[5]"

No, it's a highly offensive ad hom.

Go on, press the delete button.

You know you want to!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 11, 2019, 06:57:56 PM
Is the comment "I suppose that wouldn’t bother you in the slightest though.."  an ad hominem argument?

Wikipedia has this as a definition of "ad hominem fallacy" "Ad hominem (Latin for "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.[2] The terms ad mulierem[3] and ad feminam[4] have been used specifically when the person receiving the criticism is female.

However, its original meaning was an argument "calculated to appeal to the person addressed more than to impartial reason".[5]"

And hominem is quite, simple... And there's lots on this forum that is simply let go... It's criticising the poster rather than addressing the argument... Such SD faith referring to me as... Child-like... Which you refused to accept as ad hom whan it clearly was
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 11, 2019, 06:59:26 PM
No, it's a highly offensive ad hom.

Go on, press the delete button.

You know you want to!
What is highly offensive about it?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 11, 2019, 06:59:52 PM
No, it's a highly offensive ad hom.

Go on, press the delete button.

You know you want to!
That phrase isn't "highly offensive".  That can't possibly be true IMO.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 11, 2019, 07:01:48 PM
That phrase isn't "highly offensive".  That can't possibly be true IMO.
Neither is “clever sausage “.  My mum used to call me a silly sausage all the time.  I suppose I should have given her a warning.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 11, 2019, 07:07:04 PM
That phrase isn't "highly offensive".  That can't possibly be true IMO.

It's very definitely highly offensive.

"If you’d simply strung them up in the first instance then you’d never know if they dunnit or not, nor what became of Madeleine. I suppose that wouldn’t bother you in the slightest though.."

 &%%6

You don't get a plainer, more offensive ad hom.  Truly nasty.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 11, 2019, 07:10:04 PM
It's very definitely highly offensive.

"If you’d simply strung them up in the first instance then you’d never know if they dunnit or not, nor what became of Madeleine. I suppose that wouldn’t bother you in the slightest though.."

 &%%6

You don't get a plainer, more offensive ad hom.  Truly nasty.
What’s nasty about it?  It’s the truth, ask Spammy. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 11, 2019, 07:49:22 PM
Neither is “clever sausage “.  My mum used to call me a silly sausage all the time.  I suppose I should have given her a warning.
Are you agreeing with her?  Did you like being called a silly sausage? 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 11, 2019, 07:52:50 PM
What leads you to believe they did.

Just following the case and using a huge dollop of common sense.  I believe it is ludicrous to suggest that two national police forces acting independently of each other reached virtually the same conclusion that there remained work to be done one Madeleine's case without checking out all that had gone before.

Snip
Detectives from Scotland Yard have been granted permission to review the files of Portuguese investigators for the first time.
-----------------------------------------------------
The move comes after the couple made an impassioned appeal for David Cameron, the Prime Minister, to help them revive the search for their missing daughter.
-----------------------------------------------------

"That is simply to make sure that nothing has been missed, that there is not a vital piece of information sitting in Portugal, or in Britain, or in the private files, that linked up will suddenly unlock this.
-----------------------------------------------------

He said the review would require "co-ordination and co-operation" from police in Portugal, which the McCanns were "pleased" to have.
"It's movement on the case," Mr Mitchell said. "Something they haven't had for four years. So yes, they will draw strength from this, if not direct hope, they will draw strength that perhaps elements of this complex equation are possibly on the verge of being opened up.
"More information will be forthcoming, and with the co-operation of the Portugeuse, hopefully it will lead to that examination of everything that they so desperately want to know."
Madeleine's parents particularly want to know what mistakes have been made in the search for their daughter, what lessons have been learned, and what information is already out there that has not yet been collated, he added.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/8511049/McCanns-draw-strength-from-Scotland-Yard-move.html




Snip
Scotland Yard says it has "new evidence and new witnesses" in the Madeleine McCann case and has opened a formal investigation into her disappearance.
-----------------------------------------------------

Madeleine's parents, Gerry and Kate McCann, said the shift from review to investigation was "a big step forward".
-----------------------------------------------------

Det Ch Insp Andy Redwood, who is heading what has been called Operation Grange, said: "The review has given us new thinking, new theories, new evidence and new witnesses."
His 37-strong police team is two-thirds of the way through examining 30,500 documents from files held by the Portuguese, private investigators and British police. Some fresh interviews have also taken place.
"Over the last two years what the review has told me is that there is no clear, definitive proof that Madeleine McCann is dead," Det Ch Insp Redwood said.
-----------------------------------------------------

Detectives say Madeleine's parents, the friends the McCanns were with in Portugal and people known to the family before they went away are not suspects or people they need to investigate.
-----------------------------------------------------

The former head of the National Police Improvement Agency Peter Neyroud said it was a difficult investigation because it involved two countries, possibly more.
"It was always going to be an expensive inquiry and it is a fine judgement as to how far you go on but if, as appears, there are fresh lines of inquiry and a case worth pursuing, there is a young lady out there who deserves to be reunited with her parents - or a murder case that deserves to be pursued."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23179230
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 11, 2019, 07:53:33 PM
thers one guest reading this thraed
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 11, 2019, 07:56:21 PM

There are 99 Guests reading this Board.  And I can't say that I am surprised.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 11, 2019, 08:02:30 PM
There are 99 Guests reading this Board.  And I can't say that I am surprised.

I dont beleive there are...are they all stuck on the index page...if we look at each topic there are very few
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 11, 2019, 08:05:48 PM
It's very definitely highly offensive.

"If you’d simply strung them up in the first instance then you’d never know if they dunnit or not, nor what became of Madeleine. I suppose that wouldn’t bother you in the slightest though.."

 &%%6

You don't get a plainer, more offensive ad hom.  Truly nasty.
IMO "I suppose that wouldn’t bother you in the slightest though.." is making a presumption about another poster.  Now that presumption could well be offensive.

I'll have to look at thew rules regarding presumptions about other posters.

"Like is it acceptable to say I presume you'll act child-like and behave like a silly sausage and I suppose that wouldn’t bother you in the slightest."
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 11, 2019, 08:18:13 PM
IMO "I suppose that wouldn’t bother you in the slightest though.." is making a presumption about another poster.  Now that presumption could well be offensive.

I'll have to look at thew rules regarding presumptions about other posters.

"Like is it acceptable to say I presume you'll act child-like and behave like a silly sausage and I suppose that wouldn’t bother you in the slightest."

Please take into consideration the following.

"Silly sausage" is a gentle term of endearment that I would happily use to my grandchildren, without meaning any offence.  "Numpty" is another one, as in "Are you OK you numpty?" after a child falls over.

Us oldies use both of these wrt our dog.  It is said softly, with a gentle tone, to show that we care.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: niklasericson on May 11, 2019, 09:29:33 PM
I think Maddie is almost certainly dead....whats important is to find out what happened to her and bring the perpertrator to justice...I trust SY is the best option fot that
After 9 years of research an thousands of hours I'am about to write my report about what happened to her that week in Praia da Luz.
The conditions for the report is based on what the witnesses and other involved stated to the PJ back in 2007/08.
I will write it in Swedish and hand it over to the Swedish Professor of criminology, Leif GW Persson.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 11, 2019, 09:33:30 PM
After 9 years of research an thousands of hours I'am about to write my report about what happened to her that week in Praia da Luz.
The conditions for the report is based on what the witnesses and other involved stated to the PJ back in 2007/08.
I will write it in Swedish and hand it over to the Swedish Professor of criminology, Leif GW Persson.

the problem is...as you have not understood the evidence..same as amaral....pat brown....your report will be fatally flawed...i can guarantee that
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 11, 2019, 09:38:23 PM
Be sure to include that the child's father and his best friend gave the police two completely different versions of the last time they seen the child alive in the conclusions of your report. That's if you want it to be accepted imo.

thats not fact... the way the statements were taken was woefully indequate...that is a fact
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 11, 2019, 09:43:14 PM
They do say that they both told police two completely different versions of the last time they allege they seen the missing child alive, that's an even more important fact in the scheme of established facts imo.

who says...thats important...i an interested in the truth..i may start a forum where everyone has an equal voice
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: niklasericson on May 11, 2019, 09:43:30 PM
the problem is...as you have not understood the evidence..same as amaral....pat brown....your report will be fatally flawed...i can guarantee that
You are wrong.
I've always looked at the case objectively and my IQ is 126 so I'am thinking with my own brain and I'am not under the influence of Brown, Amaral or someone else.
It's based on what was given to the PJ.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 11, 2019, 09:44:35 PM
Be sure to include that the child's father and his best friend gave the police two completely different versions of the last time they seen the child alive in the conclusions of your report. That's if you want it to be accepted imo.

That requires cites.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 11, 2019, 09:47:20 PM
You are wrong.
I've always looked at the case objectively and my IQ is 126 so I'am thinking with my own brain and I'am not under the influence of Brown, Amaral or someone else.
It's based on what was given to the PJ.


Simple question...whats your interpretation of the dog alerts
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: niklasericson on May 11, 2019, 09:48:25 PM
Be sure to include that the child's father and his best friend gave the police two completely different versions of the last time they seen the child alive in the conclusions of your report. That's if you want it to be accepted imo.
The circumstancial evidence of the father and the mother are included.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 11, 2019, 09:50:39 PM
After 9 years of research an thousands of hours I'am about to write my report about what happened to her that week in Praia da Luz.
The conditions for the report is based on what the witnesses and other involved stated to the PJ back in 2007/08.
I will write it in Swedish and hand it over to the Swedish Professor of criminology, Leif GW Persson.
be sure to keep us informed
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: niklasericson on May 11, 2019, 09:53:53 PM

Simple question...whats your interpretation of the dog alerts
You will be told.
As a former Police officer I've been in contact with several of dog handlers within the Swedish Police Force and they have given me explanations of the dogs.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 11, 2019, 09:58:37 PM
You will be told.
As a former Police officer I've been in contact with several of dog handlers within the Swedish Police Force and they have given me explanations of the dogs.

 I have a German Shepherd.....Ive trained her with police trainer....
Grime explains the alerts very well...if you think there is evidence that implicates the mccanns ...then imo...you are totally deluded....please pm me your evidence...lets see...My brother in law is sweedish....he can transalte
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 11, 2019, 10:02:32 PM
You will be told.
As a former Police officer I've been in contact with several of dog handlers within the Swedish Police Force and they have given me explanations of the dogs.

why are you so afraid to post now...what is your opinion of the dog alerts
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 11, 2019, 10:03:53 PM
You will be told.
As a former Police officer I've been in contact with several of dog handlers within the Swedish Police Force and they have given me explanations of the dogs.

I prefer grimes explanation
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 11, 2019, 10:05:40 PM
You will be told.
As a former Police officer I've been in contact with several of dog handlers within the Swedish Police Force and they have given me explanations of the dogs.

I will challenge you now...imo...you are posting total BS... I invite you yo show I am wrong
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: niklasericson on May 11, 2019, 10:06:23 PM
I have a German Shepherd.....Ive trained her with police trainer....
Grime explains the alerts very well...if you think there is evidence that implicates the mccanns ...then imo...you are totally deluded....please pm me your evidence...lets see...My brother in law is sweedish....he can transalte
Dogs are a fantastic tool for the Police.
They find explosives,drugs,and victims in earthquakes, avalanches and more.
They also found the remains of the Swedish Journalist Kim Wall of the bottom of the Baltic sea.
The dogs are incredible.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: niklasericson on May 11, 2019, 10:09:48 PM
I will challenge you now...imo...you are posting total BS... I invite you yo show I am wrong
Why aggressive Davel?
Nothing to be afraid about.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 11, 2019, 10:11:28 PM
Dogs are a fantastic tool for the Police.
They find explosives,drugs,and victims in earthquakes, avalanches and more.
They also found the remains of the Swedish Journalist Kim Wall of the bottom of the Baltic sea.
The dogs are incredible.

i agree...but they found no evidence in LUZ...what evidence do you have of the mccanns involvement....NONE
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: niklasericson on May 11, 2019, 10:13:29 PM
i agree...but they found no evidence in LUZ...what evidence do you have of the mccanns involvement....NONE
Have I said they are involved in the death of their daughter?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 11, 2019, 10:14:06 PM
Are you agreeing with her?  Did you like being called a silly sausage?
Yes, it was better than some of the other names she called me.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 11, 2019, 10:14:48 PM
Why aggressive Davel?
Nothing to be afraid about.

IM not agressive...im certainly not afraid because im not involved...TBH ...I think you are a bit of a joke but im trying to be polite .
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 11, 2019, 10:15:48 PM
Have I said they are involved in the death of their daughter?
so are they..iyo
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 11, 2019, 10:17:13 PM
Have I said they are involved in the death of their daughter?

what we say is put up...or shut up
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 11, 2019, 10:17:42 PM
Dogs are a fantastic tool for the Police.
They find explosives,drugs,and victims in earthquakes, avalanches and more.
They also found the remains of the Swedish Journalist Kim Wall of the bottom of the Baltic sea.
The dogs are incredible.
As a Swede you’ll be familiar with the mass murderer case which involved alerts from Zampo the cadaver dog.  Any thoughts on them?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 11, 2019, 10:18:52 PM
The only proof of any steps forward that both investigations have taken that I'm aware of is Andy Redwood saying quite categorically,  "We are almost certain now that this sighting (Tannerman) is not the abductor.

Kate and Gerry say a lot of things but this is one step forward we can prove their website chose to ignore.

One step forward, two steps back springs to mind on this occassion.

Your post is ill researched and ill informed.  In her book MADELEINE Kate had a lot to say about the man seen by the Smiths ...

Snip
The police did not appear to feel that Jane’s sighting in Rua Dr Agostinho da Silva and the man and child reported by the Irish holidaymakers in Rua da Escola Primária were related.

They seem to have concluded that these were in all likelihood two different men carrying two different children (if, they implied, these two men actually existed at all). The only reason for their scepticism appeared to be an unexplained time lapse between the two sightings.

They didn’t dovetail perfectly.
To me the similarities seem far more significant than any discrepancy in timing.
Every time I read these independent statements in the files (and neither could have been influenced by the other, remember – Jane’s description had not been released to the public before the Irish witnesses made their statements), I am staggered by how alike they are, almost identical in parts.
As a lawyer once said to me, apropos another matter, ‘One coincidence, two coincidences – maybe they’re still coincidences. Any more than that and it stops being coincidence.’
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 11, 2019, 10:20:24 PM
IM not agressive...im certainly not afraid because im not involved...TBH ...I think you are a bit of a joke but im trying to be polite .

Nope.  Another ad hom.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 11, 2019, 10:21:13 PM
Nope.  Another ad hom.
Have you considered asking for your old job back? 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: niklasericson on May 11, 2019, 10:22:27 PM
IM not agressive...im certainly not afraid because im not involved...TBH ...I think you are a bit of a joke but im trying to be polite .
9 years and thousands of hours research it not a joke my friend.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 11, 2019, 10:26:30 PM
9 years and thousands of hours research it not a joke my friend.

ive ask you the same question 3 times...you have failed to answer,,,,what do the dog alerts signify....you have failed to answer 3 times...I can assure you all your accusations are a complete joke
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 11, 2019, 10:27:01 PM
Doesn't it always?#

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN.htm
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/Gaspar.htm

Now I have given you cites Brietta, don't you think you should, if you are being fair reinstate my post you have just deleted.

Well, don't you think you should?


The truth is a bitter pill to swallow if your deletions are anything to go by imo.

Doesn't work like that cheeky monkey; you have to show me what was said to allow the reasoning behind your conclusions ... I don't have to guess from your list.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 11, 2019, 10:29:26 PM
Have you considered asking for your old job back?

Nope.  I once had to clean up all the crap like this.

We have a local street cleaner, whose main task is to sweep up all the dog poo.  It is an excellent effort, and I appreciate him highly.

I just don't fancy doing his job.

Been there, done it, but no I don't have the T-shirt.    *&^^&
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 11, 2019, 10:34:14 PM
Nope.  I once had to clean up all the crap like this.

We have a local street cleaner, whose main task is to sweep up all the dog poo.  It is an excellent effort, and I appreciate him highly.

I just don't fancy doing his job.

Been there, done it, but no I don't have the T-shirt.    *&^^&
But you seem to be quite interested in telling us to move on, shut up or to get us warnings nevertheless.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: niklasericson on May 11, 2019, 10:36:50 PM
As a Swede you’ll be familiar with the mass murderer case which involved alerts from Zampo the cadaver dog.  Any thoughts on them?
Yes I'am.
It was a big scandal.
Tomas Quick spent decades in a mental hospital for crimes he didn't commited.
He didn't kill anyone, they druged him and he confessed killings in Norway and Sweden and the Prosecutor said he was guilty.
The Detectives and the Prosecutor were corrupt so it's difficult to know what the dogs really found.
They tried to frame Tomas Quick for crimes he didn't commited.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 11, 2019, 10:38:12 PM
Is it just everyone else on here that has to post IMO? Is there a reasonable excuse why you as a moderator should be any different.
Andy Redwood said exactly what I said he said and the McCanns website chose to ignore what
Redwood said. It can't be that poorly researched if those two facts are true.

I suggest you begin adding IMO like everyone else.

Whose opinion do you think is being expressed in my post?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: niklasericson on May 11, 2019, 10:40:07 PM
ive ask you the same question 3 times...you have failed to answer,,,,what do the dog alerts signify....you have failed to answer 3 times...I can assure you all your accusations are a complete joke
What accusations??
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 11, 2019, 10:46:45 PM
Nope.  I once had to clean up all the crap like this.

We have a local street cleaner, whose main task is to sweep up all the dog poo.  It is an excellent effort, and I appreciate him highly.

I just don't fancy doing his job.

Been there, done it, but no I don't have the T-shirt.    *&^^&

In my neck of the woods we are expected to clean up our own dog's poo.  The majority of responsible owners do.  Unfortunately there are those who behave irresponsibly and leave it lying and from what I have seen of the size of the heaps left behind their dogs must be as big as horses.

Probably an apt analogy to describe internet posters too.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 11, 2019, 10:51:27 PM
Yes I'am.
It was a big scandal.
Tomas Quick spent decades in a mental hospital for crimes he didn't commited.
He didn't kill anyone, they druged him and he confessed killings in Norway and Sweden and the Prosecutor said he was guilty.
The Detectives and the Prosecutor were corrupt so it's difficult to know what the dogs really found.
They tried to frame Tomas Quick for crimes he didn't commited.
The dog alerted 45 times in the places where Tomas Quick told the police he’d taken the bodies, howver he was lying so why did the dog alert?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: niklasericson on May 11, 2019, 11:41:49 PM
The dog alerted 45 times in the places where Tomas Quick told the police he’d taken the bodies, howver he was lying so why did the dog alert?
As I said.
The whole case against Quick is the biggest scandal in the Swedish justice history.
The Prosecuter and the Detectives tried to frame Quick in consensu.
We don't know what these people had done with the alleged "Crimescene" because their focus was to frame Tomas Quick.
In the discussion in this case here in Sweden I've always said,from the beginning he was innocent.
Crime Professor Leif GW Persson also said Tomas Quick was innocent.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 12, 2019, 12:09:00 AM
But you seem to be quite interested in telling us to move on, shut up or to get us warnings nevertheless.

I report posts I consider to be particularly venemous.

I have no power to decide what the moderators will choose to do with those, and my life is too short to check up on what they actually chose.

Move on.  Nothing to see here!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 12, 2019, 12:13:29 AM
I report posts I consider to be particularly venemous.

I have no power to decide what the moderators will choose to do with those, and my life is too short to check up on what they actually chose.

Move on.  Nothing to see here!
And there you go again, bossy aintcha?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 12, 2019, 01:48:19 AM
what we say is put up...or shut up
Davel give our new member a chance to reveal himself.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 12, 2019, 01:00:02 PM
Davel give our new member a chance to reveal himself.
Or just give him a chance.
What a warm welcome new members receive.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 12, 2019, 01:20:12 PM
Or just give him a chance.
What a warm welcome new members receive.

It's an interesting thought.

If you remember the Essex dog training requirements posted by G-Unit recently, it was strong on avoidance of negative handler treatment and instead encourages the use of positive reinforcement.

It would help if others followed what has long been considered best practice.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 12, 2019, 01:49:01 PM
As I said.
The whole case against Quick is the biggest scandal in the Swedish justice history.
The Prosecuter and the Detectives tried to frame Quick in consensu.
We don't know what these people had done with the alleged "Crimescene" because their focus was to frame Tomas Quick.
In the discussion in this case here in Sweden I've always said,from the beginning he was innocent.
Crime Professor Leif GW Persson also said Tomas Quick was innocent.
Are you suggesting that the dog alerts were correct but that somehow the police knew exactly where Quick was going to lead them to and pre-contaminated the scene to frame him?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 12, 2019, 02:01:18 PM
Or just give him a chance.
What a warm welcome new members receive.

You need a thick skin to survive here, right enough.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 12, 2019, 02:07:31 PM
Are you suggesting that the dog alerts were correct but that somehow the police knew exactly where Quick was going to lead them to and pre-contaminated the scene to frame him?
That's how I read that too, to be fair.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 12, 2019, 02:35:58 PM
What accusations??

This is one of your tweets.....

"The only way to solve this case would be to do a reconstruction of that night...there are people who are lying, and some, blatantly".

I think its fair to draw conclusions from that
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 12, 2019, 03:40:18 PM
That's how I read that too, to be fair.
That seems a stretch to me.  I think I’ll stick wth the dog gave false alerts, possibly owing to unconscious cues from the handler. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 12, 2019, 07:15:20 PM
That seems a stretch to me.  I think I’ll stick wth the dog gave false alerts, possibly owing to unconscious cues from the handler.
It is easier to blame the dog, he can't answer back, and doesn't know how to lie.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 12, 2019, 07:42:10 PM
It is easier to blame the dog, he can't answer back, and doesn't know how to lie.

Have you owned a dog?  Ours is definitely intelligent enough to lie.

Perhaps 2 days ago my beloved posted a picture of Gonçalo on the Cocker Facebook page.  He was sitting on the terrace facing her, with one of my socks in his mouth.

He was clearly saying 'I didn't steal it.  I just found it.  And I was taking it back to Daddy.'

Children go through a brain development stage where they learn to lie.  To do it convincingly, they need to construct an 'alternative story', that is believable.  And that requires a considerable of brainpower.

My dog is intelligent.  He knows how to lie.  He's just not very good at lying.   Yet.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 12, 2019, 07:59:58 PM
True I repeating the often used phrase "dogs don't know how to lie".    As a vet I have not studied whether animals lie.

I'm thinking about my cattle and horses, they certainly make errors and the ones following the leader might think the leader was lying but then they would need to blame themselves for following that leader.

Walk to water but the trough is dry, was the leader lying?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 12, 2019, 08:48:30 PM
True I repeating the often used phrase "dogs don't know how to lie".    As a vet I have not studied whether animals lie.

I'm thinking about my cattle and horses, they certainly make errors and the ones following the leader might think the leader was lying but then they would need to blame themselves for following that leader.

Walk to water but the trough is dry, was the leader lying?

I didn't know you were a vet, most interesting, thanks for sharing.

I don't know about all dogs, but I would think most are what I would consider to be surprisingly intelligent.

Sheepdogs for example are trained not to attack sheep, but to herd them in response to commands.

I remember seeing a border collie on TV once.  It could recognise which one of its 300 toys was requested by his owner.  It could also recognise the toys by groups.  For example, if the owner requested a flying toy, or a yellow toy, the dog was free to choose what it wanted from those categories.  It also understood 10 or 12 commands.

Intelligent doggie!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 12, 2019, 09:03:31 PM
It will be all to do with rewards.  Dog gets it right you give him a reward.

My cat does that to me, she trains me to give her what she wants and then rewards me by allowing me to pat her.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 12, 2019, 09:37:02 PM
It will be all to do with rewards.  Dog gets it right you give him a reward.

My cat does that to me, she trains me to give her what she wants and then rewards me by allowing me to pat her.

My dog 'speaks' to me frequently.

He tells when it is time for me to get up.  He tells me when he wants to play.  He tells me when he wants a cuddle.  He tells my beloved that he needs to go out for his ablutions.  He tells me that I need to refill his water bowl, and when he wants me to cook a meal for him.  He tells me when he wants to go walkies, and when he would prefer to socialise with others.

I know for a fact that when my beloved flies off to England for medical treatment shortly, he will tell me when he wants to go into her room, and en-suite, to check if she is at home.

He doesn't yet understand Yellowfish, the taxi service to and from Faro airport.  And he doesn't understand mobile phones.  On my better half's last visit to England, I got one of her 'check-ins' on my mobile.  So I unflapped his lug, and put the phone to his ear.  He couldn't imagine why a person of my beloved's size could fit into such a small handset.

Mind you, he loved it, so all was well!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 12, 2019, 10:55:16 PM
"Throughout the investigation, we subjected Martin and his dogs to many ‘verifying’ tests, from burying swabs in sand (which he always found no matter how large an area), to minute blood stains. The dogs never failed. Many of these tests were carried out in front of Jersey politicians and media, including Channel Television and Diane Simon of the JEP. Frank Walker and Andrew Lewis were only two of the politicians who witnessed the ability of the dogs in hugely impressive displays."

"The first indication that the dog (Eddie) is finding something amiss. His behaviour has changed, and is remarked on by the handler. He is initially reacting further down from where we were to eventually find the initial fragment, (which ILM and others still incorrectly claim to be definitively identified as coconut) and in the flow of the drainage from the area where it was found. To clarify, Eddie is trained to trace the scent of dead human flesh. He will react where this scent is found, not necessarily where it was originally located. His strongest reaction will normally be where that scent is strongest, which will usually be where the dead flesh has lain longest, but he will sense it in areas where the scent has been carried, for instance, by drains."

"Now Eddie has just left the wall adjoining the stair area where he reacted earlier. The drains in the building run from those stairs, under the adjoining wall, and down the room where we are now standing. As the dog is trained to detect the scent of dead human flesh, he is now following the strong scent emanating from the other side of the wall and being carried in the drains under the floor of this room and down the room towards the corridor seen earlier in the video."

"Note the dog’s return to the wall. This was almost the exact spot where JAR/6 was found. It is a few inches from where the builders found the bones which they thought were human and which they were told about, “Let bygones be bygones.” If this dog was a waste of money, then how did he lead us to this exact spot? How did he later, in the ‘live’ presence of Wendy Kinnard (the then Home Affairs Minister) and Graham Power (the then Chief Police Officer), lead us to the bones in the cellars which an Anthropologist in the United Kingdom said were “fleshed and fresh” when burnt and buried? It cannot be a co-incidence that this dog, trained to detect the scent of dead human flesh, reacted so strongly in an area where we were to find a fragment of substance initially identified by a professional, accomplished, Anthropologist, as a part of a child’s skull, and right beside the spot where builders found bones and children’s shoes which they thought were human bones. No amount of spin by Le Marquand and others can contradict this, and no amount of misinformation from Warcup and Gradwell can conceal this truth."

"This is the live video, filmed on a mobile phone as it happened. The film was made by the Homicide Search Advisor of the National Policing Improvement Agency, on his mobile phone. He was to later say that the way we had carried out the search of HDLG was a “shining example” and should be documented as an example of good practice. Where has this recommendation been lost in the mists? The reactions of the dog speak for themselves. Eddie is not telling us that murder was committed at HDLG. He is telling us that somewhere in the floor-space of the premises; the scent of human death has been present. He is telling us that there is something there for us to investigate. His findings have been corroborated by the finding of the bones and teeth, by the results of the surveys carried out by the most sophisticated of electronic geological equipment, and by the evidence of builders and former residents and victims of abuse in HDLG. This video totally contradicts the spin of Frank Walker, Andrew Lewis and Diane Simon of the Jersey Evening Post, all of whom were taken on a tour of the building and given a demonstration of the ability and capability of Eddie and his companion "Keela" the blood detection dog. All of them were aware of the true situation relating to the dog and the finds. All of them, for their own reasons, chose to ignore the truth and to peddle the myths of those seeking to discredit the victims of the horrific abuse within HDLG. They are now, in my opinion, exposed as craven cowards and not fit to lick those victims’ boots. As for Martin Grime and the dogs that they have tried to discredit, they are now working full time for one of the best Law Enforcement Agencies in the world in the USA."

http://voiceforchildren.blogspot.com/2012_03_01_archive.html
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 12, 2019, 11:39:31 PM
"Throughout the investigation, we subjected Martin and his dogs to many ‘verifying’ tests, from burying swabs in sand (which he always found no matter how large an area), to minute blood stains. The dogs never failed. Many of these tests were carried out in front of Jersey politicians and media, including Channel Television and Diane Simon of the JEP. Frank Walker and Andrew Lewis were only two of the politicians who witnessed the ability of the dogs in hugely impressive displays." .................
................................................................................................

http://voiceforchildren.blogspot.com/2012_03_01_archive.html

I can give you a cite ... and not from a red top either ... that the remains of five children were found in the former children's home at Haute de la Garenne in Jersey.

It quite simply is not true.  It merely reflects the misinformation passed directly and openly from the police to the media which coming from such an impeccable source engendered the press hysteria of the time.
It was all unfounded.

Even children who are in care have people who love and care for them.  Local authorities keep records of children in care.  Not one child resident in Haute de la Garenne is unaccounted for let alone five.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: kizzy on May 13, 2019, 11:03:58 AM
Why - what if you don't believe Maddie was abducted.

You are not in a position to tell posters what to do - just because of your beliefs.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: kizzy on May 13, 2019, 11:10:40 AM
Yes let's get back to the mcns - where it seems there is no set in stone proof that Maddie was abducted 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 13, 2019, 11:10:57 AM
Why - what if you don't believe Maddie was abducted.

You are not in a position to tell posters what to do - just because of your beliefs.

then you are casting aspersions on the mccanns...im not telling anyone what to do...you can do what you like within the law...i dont really care
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: carlymichelle on May 13, 2019, 11:12:08 AM
Yes let's get back to the mcns - where it seems there is no set in stone proof that Maddie was abducted

exactly
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: kizzy on May 13, 2019, 11:16:03 AM
then you are casting aspersions on the mccanns...im not telling anyone what to do...you can do what you like within the law...i dont really care



then you are casting aspersions on the mccanns


So what - am I suppose to care about that just because you don't like it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: carlymichelle on May 13, 2019, 11:17:13 AM


then you are casting aspersions on the mccanns


So what - am I suppose to care about that just because you don't like it.

kate and gerry made their own bed  so to  speak  maddie and the twins    were  the  victims
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 13, 2019, 11:17:44 AM
Yes let's get back to the mcns - where it seems there is no set in stone proof that Maddie was abducted

Oh it is,there's an open window don't you know.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 13, 2019, 11:18:36 AM


then you are casting aspersions on the mccanns


So what - am I suppose to care about that just because you don't like it.

who said I expect you to care....i dont care what you say...within the law
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: carlymichelle on May 13, 2019, 11:18:59 AM
Oh it is,there's an open window don't you know.

i  didnt know windows abducted  people?? ?{)(**
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 13, 2019, 11:19:27 AM
Why labour it?

I think ive made 3 posts about it......
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 13, 2019, 11:19:59 AM
i  didnt know windows abducted  people?? ?{)(**

All part of the egress,sure I read that somewhere.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 13, 2019, 11:28:53 AM

 @)(++(* - Oh makes a bit of sense now.

This is not funny, and is now degenerating into pointless insults.

I should have Deleted Carley's comment.  So basically my fault.  I won't be so kind in future.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: carlymichelle on May 13, 2019, 11:29:03 AM
What?
Language difficulties? What's that got to do with forum members investigating the legality of SIL's missus NHS treatment as an ex pat? You don't see that as crossing a line? As a moderator?



they dont   care  about  people who dont believe the mcanns the general they are on a  crusade  to  defend the mccans   at any cost imo
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 13, 2019, 11:32:47 AM


they dont   care  about  people who dont believe the mcanns the general they are on a  crusade  to  defend the mccans   at any cost imo

Was it not you who many years after the event, insisted that Lindy Chamberlain was guilty?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: kizzy on May 13, 2019, 11:40:05 AM
who said I expect you to care....i dont care what you say...within the law

Do you think the mcns think any more of you than me.

They have threatened -  to C&R people who have been on there side before
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 13, 2019, 11:43:48 AM
the  supporters  are deeply attached to the mcanns  davel once  said     kate  was   hot

I know we are not supposed to call posters liars... But is it acceptable to tell lies about other posters
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 13, 2019, 11:46:18 AM
What?
Language difficulties? What's that got to do with forum members investigating the legality of SIL's missus NHS treatment as an ex pat? You don't see that as crossing a line? As a moderator?

You neatly blew your cover http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10710.msg527465#msg527465 when you were bored as a result of being laid up with 'man flu' after a series of argumentative posts and faux outrage (wumming ???)

As you no doubt well know ... no one is "investigating" anyone ... that is against forum rules. 

I consider what you did in a succession of posts as I have mentioned above is breaking the rules which I as a moderator have logged and recorded.

You crossed the line ... and I have the evidence to prove you crossed the line.  Now let us progress away from another Davel bashing exercise ... which I believe is what the posts I have logged was all about in the first instance ... and embark for a pleasant change on some meaningful discussion.

We are after all a discussion forum ... let's respect that please.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 13, 2019, 11:53:02 AM
You neatly blew your cover http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10710.msg527465#msg527465 when you were bored as a result of being laid up with 'man flu' after a series of argumentative posts and faux outrage (wumming ???)

As you no doubt well know ... no one is "investigating" anyone ... that is against forum rules. 

I consider what you did in a succession of posts as I have mentioned above is breaking the rules which I as a moderator have logged and recorded.

You crossed the line ... and I have the evidence to prove you crossed the line.  Now let us progress away from another Davel bashing exercise ... which I believe is what the posts I have logged was all about in the first instance ... and embark for a pleasant change on some meaningful discussion.

We are after all a discussion forum ... let's respect that please.
Can't open that link.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 13, 2019, 11:57:34 AM
Can't open that link.

Works fine for me ... pop back to the paradox thread post #18 work back from there and I'm sure it will all come flooding back to you.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: kizzy on May 13, 2019, 12:01:08 PM
This is not funny, and is now degenerating into pointless insults.

I should have Deleted Carley's comment.  So basically my fault.  I won't be so kind in future.


The reason I thought it was funny - was because if D said that.

It would explain the obsession he has of kmcn  - being innocent IMO
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 13, 2019, 12:11:01 PM

The reason I thought it was funny - was because if D said that.

It would explain the obsession he has of kmcn  - being innocent IMO

Hardly.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 13, 2019, 12:48:18 PM
Just as a matter of interest ...
It is my understanding that the health service in Portugal is excellent.  I've just checked it out and have found that in 2017 ...
Snip
5. Portugal. With a small population of about 10 million people, Portugal's healthcare system is ranked the 9th best in Europe and 12th in the world. The Portuguese, who are among the world's healthiest people, have one of the highest life expectancies in the European Union.6 Apr 2017
https://today.mims.com/5-countries-ranked-the-best-for-high-quality-healthcare  ... which to my way of thinking makes it pretty good.

I'm not asking for the simple reason it is none of my business ... I'm wondering ... if the treatment your wife receives is unavailable in Portugal or does she prefer the journey home to England because she is more comfortable being in an environment where she will not experience a language barrier?

My apologies for being tardy.  I was knackered when I first read it, and I considered it was prudent to go to sleep and return to your question later.

Everyone in Portugal gets a mandatory training in English of 8 years at school.  Then they can choose an alternative language if they wish, though most stick to learning English.

Nurses and emergency medical staff get further training in English.  I presume this covers learning medical jargon.

There are some front desk staff in Portuguese health centres who will tell you unless you speak Portuguese, you won't be served.  The likely reason for this is as follows.  Some years ago, when Portugal 'went broke', the rescuers imposed tighter financial constraints.  One of those was a change to get many people off social benefits and into work, typically on minimum wages.  Among those, there is a resentment that 'rich' foreigners are getting treatment at Portugal's expense.

Oddly enough, that attitude exists elsewhere.  My wife frequented a particular café, and over the period put a fair bit of money in the till.  And she tips generously.  One day the old lady who owns the cafe came out to serve.  She was too old to have gone through the compulsory 8 years English at school.  My wife requested, very civilly, her son, who speaks high quality English.  The old lady refused, and insisted my wife must speak in Portuguese.  It was an odd attitude, because that café was popular with French and German patrons.  My wife got up and left, found an alternative cafe, and has never been back since.

Moving on to my wife's medical condition, I have very limited personal experience of whatever equivalent there is to the NHS, thank goodness.  But as my wife's condition got progressively more painful, we did a bit of research on the options. 

It seems there is a centre in Faro that does this type of surgery, but it is rated as so-so.  The go to option is a man in Lisbon, who is rated as world class.  That would mean being stuck alone for about a week.  The alternative was back in Inglaterra, with a high quality surgeon, and it is very close to one branch of her family, and his children.  So she picked that option.

Just to head any potential Indians off at the pass, it is being done on private insurance, not the NHS.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: carlymichelle on May 13, 2019, 01:05:21 PM
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/shock-claims-maddie-mccann-taken-15610176?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=mirror_main&fbclid=IwAR2w-pvvLGlXWWSgfUdpxW5s3Cuw_Dqmr7oFmd8TAXztCFI3FiBPZV8TtHM






Shock claims Maddie McCann 'taken by paedophile who knew the family'

Ex-detective Goncalo Amaral - who led the police investigation into the 2007 Praia de Luz disappearance - detailed the possible line of inquiry on an Australian podcast

    Share

ByLucy Clarke-BillingsDeputy News Editor

    12:30, 13 MAY 2019Updated12:33, 13 MAY 2019


Madeleine McCann could have been snatched by a paedophile who became close to her family without their knowledge, according to one line of inquiry.

Ex-detective Goncalo Amaral, who led the police investigation into the 2007 Praia de Luz disappearance, detailed the probe while speaking to Australian podcast Maddie.

He said one potential line of inquiry at the time involved the possibility of an international paedophile ring that may have had links to people close to the McCann family, without their knowledge.

He also claimed some statements which may have been relevant to that line of inquiry were initially withheld by British police, who at the time were working in tandem with the Portuguese.

"The British authorities tried to conceal the statement and nothing was done about this statement," Mr Amaral claimed.

"They were not followed up. Nobody investigated anything related to them."
Gerry and Kate McCann, pictured with their children, were oblivious, according to the line of inquiry

There is no suggestion that Maddie's parents, Kate and Gerry McCann, were involved in their daughter's disappearance.

Mirror Online has approached the Met Police for comment in regards to Mr Amaral's claims.

It emerged last week that a German child murderer is believed to be a new suspect.

Investigations are being linked to Martin Ney, 48, who is serving life in prison for killing three children.

Known as the “Masked Man”, he closely resembles a photofit of a man said to have been seen with a child in his arms shortly after Madeleine, three, vanished.

And evidence is said to place Ney – now serving life in his native Germany – in the Algarve when the youngster disappeared in May 2007.
Maddie's disappearance could be linked to an international paedophile ring, according to an ex-detective (Image: Kate and Gerry McCann)

Ney, originally from Hamburg, targeted children on holiday – entering their tents or villas wearing a mask and armed with a weapon.

He was first identified by Scotland Yard as a possible suspect by investigators working for the McCanns in 2011 – but Berlin police chiefs then ruled out involvement, saying he was only interested in boys.

Ney was working for an evangelical church on a project for the homeless in Portugal at the time Madeleine vanished.

But he told investigators he did not commit any murders there and denied any involvement in her disappearance.

The former youth worker was convicted in 2011 of killing three boys and was sentenced to 27 years.
Maddie vanished from the holiday resort of Praia da Luz in Portugal (Image: PA)

His victims, killed between 1992 and 2001, were Stefan Jahrd, 13, Dennis Rostel, eight, and Dennis Kleinfrom, nine.

He was also quizzed over the disappearance of German boy Renee Hasse in Aljezur, Portugal, in 1996, but never charged.

Scotland Yard and Portugal’s Policia Judiciaria have kept the new suspect’s name closely guarded, but Mr Amaral claims he has knowledge a German is being investigated.

He refused to identify Ney by name, but says a German suspect was quizzed by PJ detectives as part of their 2008 probe.

Mr Amaral said he was ruled out of the investigation but jailed in his home country for offences “unconnected” to the Madeleine case.

And he may not be the only suspect in the frame.
Investigations are being linked to Martin Ney who is serving life in prison for killing three children
In 2015 it was reported British police were “closely following” a second German child killer suspected of murdering a schoolgirl. It is not known what the outcome of the probe was.

Mr Amaral said he believes British police will close the case by making a German suspect their “scapegoat”.

He claimed: “They are preparing the end of the investigation, with a German paedophile who is in prison right now.”

There are also fears Ney may have been part of a paedophile ring operating on the Algarve around the time Madeleine vanished.

Another pervert with links to Germany, British man Raymond Hewlett, was living an hour’s drive from Praia da Luz at the time.

A British couple gave police information that the 64-year-old had told them he spoke to gypsies who were interested in buying youngsters.

They claimed he also boasted of making a “good business trip” with his family to Morocco to make a mystery “sale”.

The pervert was living with his wife and children on a Portuguese campsite when Madeleine disappeared.

Hewlett later moved to Germany and refused to answer questions when confronted by private detectives hired by the McCanns.

But he reportedly wrote to his estranged son saying Madeleine had been “stolen to order” by a gypsy gang.

Hewlett, who was jailed several times for sexually assaulting young girls, died from throat cancer in 2010.

The Policia Judiciaria and Scotland Yard have both refused to comment.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 13, 2019, 01:19:22 PM
Please don't post personal information on discussion boards re NHS or similar.
I have removed all such posts.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 13, 2019, 01:26:26 PM

The reason I thought it was funny - was because if D said that.

It would explain the obsession he has of kmcn  - being innocent IMO

But D didn't say that... It's a crackpot idea
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 13, 2019, 01:35:08 PM
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/shock-claims-maddie-mccann-taken-15610176?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=mirror_main&fbclid=IwAR2w-pvvLGlXWWSgfUdpxW5s3Cuw_Dqmr7oFmd8TAXztCFI3FiBPZV8TtHM






Shock claims Maddie McCann 'taken by paedophile who knew the family'

Ex-detective Goncalo Amaral - who led the police investigation into the 2007 Praia de Luz disappearance - detailed the possible line of inquiry on an Australian podcast

    Share

ByLucy Clarke-BillingsDeputy News Editor

    12:30, 13 MAY 2019Updated12:33, 13 MAY 2019


Madeleine McCann could have been snatched by a paedophile who became close to her family without their knowledge, according to one line of inquiry.

Ex-detective Goncalo Amaral, who led the police investigation into the 2007 Praia de Luz disappearance, detailed the probe while speaking to Australian podcast Maddie.

He said one potential line of inquiry at the time involved the possibility of an international paedophile ring that may have had links to people close to the McCann family, without their knowledge.

He also claimed some statements which may have been relevant to that line of inquiry were initially withheld by British police, who at the time were working in tandem with the Portuguese.

"The British authorities tried to conceal the statement and nothing was done about this statement," Mr Amaral claimed.

"They were not followed up. Nobody investigated anything related to them."
Gerry and Kate McCann, pictured with their children, were oblivious, according to the line of inquiry

There is no suggestion that Maddie's parents, Kate and Gerry McCann, were involved in their daughter's disappearance.

Mirror Online has approached the Met Police for comment in regards to Mr Amaral's claims.

It emerged last week that a German child murderer is believed to be a new suspect.

Investigations are being linked to Martin Ney, 48, who is serving life in prison for killing three children.

Known as the “Masked Man”, he closely resembles a photofit of a man said to have been seen with a child in his arms shortly after Madeleine, three, vanished.

And evidence is said to place Ney – now serving life in his native Germany – in the Algarve when the youngster disappeared in May 2007.
Maddie's disappearance could be linked to an international paedophile ring, according to an ex-detective (Image: Kate and Gerry McCann)

Ney, originally from Hamburg, targeted children on holiday – entering their tents or villas wearing a mask and armed with a weapon.

He was first identified by Scotland Yard as a possible suspect by investigators working for the McCanns in 2011 – but Berlin police chiefs then ruled out involvement, saying he was only interested in boys.

Ney was working for an evangelical church on a project for the homeless in Portugal at the time Madeleine vanished.

But he told investigators he did not commit any murders there and denied any involvement in her disappearance.

The former youth worker was convicted in 2011 of killing three boys and was sentenced to 27 years.
Maddie vanished from the holiday resort of Praia da Luz in Portugal (Image: PA)

His victims, killed between 1992 and 2001, were Stefan Jahrd, 13, Dennis Rostel, eight, and Dennis Kleinfrom, nine.

He was also quizzed over the disappearance of German boy Renee Hasse in Aljezur, Portugal, in 1996, but never charged.

Scotland Yard and Portugal’s Policia Judiciaria have kept the new suspect’s name closely guarded, but Mr Amaral claims he has knowledge a German is being investigated.

He refused to identify Ney by name, but says a German suspect was quizzed by PJ detectives as part of their 2008 probe.

Mr Amaral said he was ruled out of the investigation but jailed in his home country for offences “unconnected” to the Madeleine case.

And he may not be the only suspect in the frame.
Investigations are being linked to Martin Ney who is serving life in prison for killing three children
In 2015 it was reported British police were “closely following” a second German child killer suspected of murdering a schoolgirl. It is not known what the outcome of the probe was.

Mr Amaral said he believes British police will close the case by making a German suspect their “scapegoat”.

He claimed: “They are preparing the end of the investigation, with a German paedophile who is in prison right now.”

There are also fears Ney may have been part of a paedophile ring operating on the Algarve around the time Madeleine vanished.

Another pervert with links to Germany, British man Raymond Hewlett, was living an hour’s drive from Praia da Luz at the time.

A British couple gave police information that the 64-year-old had told them he spoke to gypsies who were interested in buying youngsters.

They claimed he also boasted of making a “good business trip” with his family to Morocco to make a mystery “sale”.

The pervert was living with his wife and children on a Portuguese campsite when Madeleine disappeared.

Hewlett later moved to Germany and refused to answer questions when confronted by private detectives hired by the McCanns.

But he reportedly wrote to his estranged son saying Madeleine had been “stolen to order” by a gypsy gang.

Hewlett, who was jailed several times for sexually assaulting young girls, died from throat cancer in 2010.

The Policia Judiciaria and Scotland Yard have both refused to comment.



Amaral is being accused of saying things he didn't say, I see.

"He said one potential line of inquiry at the time involved the possibility of an international paedophile ring that may have had links to people close to the McCann family, without their knowledge."
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: carlymichelle on May 13, 2019, 01:35:15 PM
Please don't post personal information on discussion boards re NHS or similar.


good advice its no ones concern
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 13, 2019, 01:45:12 PM

good advice its no ones concern

It's the concern of UK taxpayers
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 13, 2019, 01:47:52 PM
I can give you a cite ... and not from a red top either ... that the remains of five children were found in the former children's home at Haute de la Garenne in Jersey.

It quite simply is not true.  It merely reflects the misinformation passed directly and openly from the police to the media which coming from such an impeccable source engendered the press hysteria of the time.
It was all unfounded.

Even children who are in care have people who love and care for them.  Local authorities keep records of children in care.  Not one child resident in Haute de la Garenne is unaccounted for let alone five.

Did you miss the word TESTS?

"we subjected Martin and his dogs to many ‘verifying’ tests, from burying swabs in sand (which he always found no matter how large an area), to minute blood stains"
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 13, 2019, 01:48:51 PM
If anyone wants to discuss which NHS services are available to expats then please feel free to open a new thread in the off topic board.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 13, 2019, 01:49:35 PM
My apologies for being tardy.  I was knackered when I first read it, and I considered it was prudent to go to sleep and return to your question later.

Everyone in Portugal gets a mandatory training in English of 8 years at school.  Then they can choose an alternative language if they wish, though most stick to learning English.

Nurses and emergency medical staff get further training in English.  I presume this covers learning medical jargon.

There are some front desk staff in Portuguese health centres who will tell you unless you speak Portuguese, you won't be served.  The likely reason for this is as follows.  Some years ago, when Portugal 'went broke', the rescuers imposed tighter financial constraints.  One of those was a change to get many people off social benefits and into work, typically on minimum wages.  Among those, there is a resentment that 'rich' foreigners are getting treatment at Portugal's expense.

Oddly enough, that attitude exists elsewhere.  My wife frequented a particular café, and over the period put a fair bit of money in the till.  And she tips generously.  One day the old lady who owns the cafe came out to serve.  She was too old to have gone through the compulsory 8 years English at school.  My wife requested, very civilly, her son, who speaks high quality English.  The old lady refused, and insisted my wife must speak in Portuguese.  It was an odd attitude, because that café was popular with French and German patrons.  My wife got up and left, found an alternative cafe, and has never been back since.

Moving on to my wife's medical condition, I have very limited personal experience of whatever equivalent there is to the NHS, thank goodness.  But as my wife's condition got progressively more painful, we did a bit of research on the options. 

It seems there is a centre in Faro that does this type of surgery, but it is rated as so-so.  The go to option is a man in Lisbon, who is rated as world class.  That would mean being stuck alone for about a week.  The alternative was back in Inglaterra, with a high quality surgeon, and it is very close to one branch of her family, and his children.  So she picked that option.

Just to head any potential Indians off at the pass, it is being done on private insurance, not the NHS.

That attitude happened in South Africa regarding Afrikaans ... I don't know if it still prevails.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 13, 2019, 01:50:14 PM
If anyone wants to discuss which NHS services are available to expats then please feel free to open a new thread in the off topic board.

Thanks... I will
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: kizzy on May 13, 2019, 01:58:50 PM
But D didn't say that... It's a crackpot idea


No worries - it has been deleted anyway.

well, my actual post has.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 13, 2019, 01:59:13 PM
Amaral is being accused of saying things he didn't say, I see.

"He said one potential line of inquiry at the time involved the possibility of an international paedophile ring that may have had links to people close to the McCann family, without their knowledge."

Amaral is talking about the person who was accused in a certain statement that arrived at the PJ after he left the case.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: kizzy on May 13, 2019, 02:07:21 PM
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/shock-claims-maddie-mccann-taken-15610176?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=mirror_main&fbclid=IwAR2w-pvvLGlXWWSgfUdpxW5s3Cuw_Dqmr7oFmd8TAXztCFI3FiBPZV8TtHM






Shock claims Maddie McCann 'taken by paedophile who knew the family'

Ex-detective Goncalo Amaral - who led the police investigation into the 2007 Praia de Luz disappearance - detailed the possible line of inquiry on an Australian podcast

    Share

ByLucy Clarke-BillingsDeputy News Editor

    12:30, 13 MAY 2019Updated12:33, 13 MAY 2019


Madeleine McCann could have been snatched by a paedophile who became close to her family without their knowledge, according to one line of inquiry.

Ex-detective Goncalo Amaral, who led the police investigation into the 2007 Praia de Luz disappearance, detailed the probe while speaking to Australian podcast Maddie.

He said one potential line of inquiry at the time involved the possibility of an international paedophile ring that may have had links to people close to the McCann family, without their knowledge.

He also claimed some statements which may have been relevant to that line of inquiry were initially withheld by British police, who at the time were working in tandem with the Portuguese.

"The British authorities tried to conceal the statement and nothing was done about this statement," Mr Amaral claimed.

"They were not followed up. Nobody investigated anything related to them."
Gerry and Kate McCann, pictured with their children, were oblivious, according to the line of inquiry

There is no suggestion that Maddie's parents, Kate and Gerry McCann, were involved in their daughter's disappearance.

Mirror Online has approached the Met Police for comment in regards to Mr Amaral's claims.

It emerged last week that a German child murderer is believed to be a new suspect.

Investigations are being linked to Martin Ney, 48, who is serving life in prison for killing three children.

Known as the “Masked Man”, he closely resembles a photofit of a man said to have been seen with a child in his arms shortly after Madeleine, three, vanished.

And evidence is said to place Ney – now serving life in his native Germany – in the Algarve when the youngster disappeared in May 2007.
Maddie's disappearance could be linked to an international paedophile ring, according to an ex-detective (Image: Kate and Gerry McCann)

Ney, originally from Hamburg, targeted children on holiday – entering their tents or villas wearing a mask and armed with a weapon.

He was first identified by Scotland Yard as a possible suspect by investigators working for the McCanns in 2011 – but Berlin police chiefs then ruled out involvement, saying he was only interested in boys.

Ney was working for an evangelical church on a project for the homeless in Portugal at the time Madeleine vanished.

But he told investigators he did not commit any murders there and denied any involvement in her disappearance.

The former youth worker was convicted in 2011 of killing three boys and was sentenced to 27 years.
Maddie vanished from the holiday resort of Praia da Luz in Portugal (Image: PA)

His victims, killed between 1992 and 2001, were Stefan Jahrd, 13, Dennis Rostel, eight, and Dennis Kleinfrom, nine.

He was also quizzed over the disappearance of German boy Renee Hasse in Aljezur, Portugal, in 1996, but never charged.

Scotland Yard and Portugal’s Policia Judiciaria have kept the new suspect’s name closely guarded, but Mr Amaral claims he has knowledge a German is being investigated.

He refused to identify Ney by name, but says a German suspect was quizzed by PJ detectives as part of their 2008 probe.

Mr Amaral said he was ruled out of the investigation but jailed in his home country for offences “unconnected” to the Madeleine case.

And he may not be the only suspect in the frame.
Investigations are being linked to Martin Ney who is serving life in prison for killing three children
In 2015 it was reported British police were “closely following” a second German child killer suspected of murdering a schoolgirl. It is not known what the outcome of the probe was.

Mr Amaral said he believes British police will close the case by making a German suspect their “scapegoat”.

He claimed: “They are preparing the end of the investigation, with a German paedophile who is in prison right now.”

There are also fears Ney may have been part of a paedophile ring operating on the Algarve around the time Madeleine vanished.

Another pervert with links to Germany, British man Raymond Hewlett, was living an hour’s drive from Praia da Luz at the time.

A British couple gave police information that the 64-year-old had told them he spoke to gypsies who were interested in buying youngsters.

They claimed he also boasted of making a “good business trip” with his family to Morocco to make a mystery “sale”.

The pervert was living with his wife and children on a Portuguese campsite when Madeleine disappeared.

Hewlett later moved to Germany and refused to answer questions when confronted by private detectives hired by the McCanns.

But he reportedly wrote to his estranged son saying Madeleine had been “stolen to order” by a gypsy gang.

Hewlett, who was jailed several times for sexually assaulting young girls, died from throat cancer in 2010.

The Policia Judiciaria and Scotland Yard have both refused to comment.




Why do they seem to always put this now - When they're not suggesting they are.

Seems a bit odd to me - just lately seems to be in most of the stories by MSM

There is no suggestion that Maddie's parents, Kate and Gerry McCann, were involved in their daughter's disappearance.



Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 13, 2019, 02:54:27 PM
There is no suggestion that Maddie's parents, Kate and Gerry McCann, were involved in their daughter's disappearance.

They were involved to the extent that they enabled it.  Had they practised good childcare then we wouldn't be here discussing this some 12 years later.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: kizzy on May 13, 2019, 03:26:57 PM
They were involved to the extent that they enabled it.  Had they practised good childcare then we wouldn't be here discussing this some 12 years later.


Yes, I know that - couldn't agree more.

What puzzles me is why do MSM - all of a sudden in most stories put

  There is no suggestion that Maddie's parents, Kate and Gerry McCann, were involved in their daughter's disappearance.


When they are not suggesting they are - what is the reason behind it.


IIRC they were not suspects - before being made arguidos
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 13, 2019, 03:29:34 PM

Yes, I know that - couldn't agree more.

What puzzles me is why do MSM - all of a sudden in most stories put

  There is no suggestion that Maddie's parents, Kate and Gerry McCann, were involved in their daughter's disappearance.


When they are not suggesting they are - what is the reason behind it.


IIRC they were not suspects - before being made arguidos

Because most of these stories are originating from the podcast... Which repeats this mantra several times
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 13, 2019, 05:37:07 PM
Amaral is talking about the person who was accused in a certain statement that arrived at the PJ after he left the case.

He is being quoted as saying words in the podcast. I don'r recall hearing him say those words.   
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 13, 2019, 05:48:01 PM

Yes, I know that - couldn't agree more.

What puzzles me is why do MSM - all of a sudden in most stories put

  There is no suggestion that Maddie's parents, Kate and Gerry McCann, were involved in their daughter's disappearance.


When they are not suggesting they are - what is the reason behind it.


IIRC they were not suspects - before being made arguidos

It's a legal rider added to articles by the MSM in order to avoid being sued by this litigious couple.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 13, 2019, 05:53:40 PM
It's a legal rider added to articles by the MSM in order to avoid being sued by this litigious couple.

Just why have the mccanns been able to silence people.... Do you think it's govt protection... The masons
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 13, 2019, 06:07:48 PM
It's a legal rider added to articles by the MSM in order to avoid being sued by this litigious couple.
It only works if there actually IS no suggestion that they were involved in Madeleine’s disappearance.  I take it there isn’t the remotest suggestion of this in any of these podcasts then?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 13, 2019, 06:29:34 PM
Just why have the mccanns been able to silence people.... Do you think it's govt protection... The masons

Access to a large fund to pay for litigation would be my guess.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 13, 2019, 06:31:40 PM
Access to a large fund to pay for litigation would be my guess.

How much have they paid CR... I bet there's, a queue who would represent  them free of charge knowing they can easily recover their costs
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 13, 2019, 06:40:27 PM
How much have they paid CR... I bet there's, a queue who would represent  them free of charge knowing they can easily recover their costs

A retainer was paid to CR from the fund, a fact that Adam Tudor admitted at the select committee. It is free to the parents but not to the fund set up to find their daughter.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 13, 2019, 06:43:43 PM
A retainer was paid to CR from the fund, a fact that Adam Tudor admitted at the select committee. It is free to the parents but not to the fund set up to find their daughter.

weve been through all this before..CR take the case knowing they will win.....its that simple
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 13, 2019, 06:57:29 PM
Thanks... I will
Did you do it?  What is the link to the thread?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 13, 2019, 07:04:26 PM
weve been through all this before..CR take the case knowing they will win.....its that simple

CR are paid a retainer....definition.... an amount of money that you pay to someone so as to be sure that that person can work for you when you need them.


Mr Tudor: Yes. My partners and I talked about it. We have a committee of partners that looks at whether or not a case is on a no win, no fee basis, as you probably heard from my partner, Mark Thompson. We did that with Kate and Gerry's case. It was a longer, more difficult discussion than would ordinarily be the case because of the extraordinary nature, volume and so on. We sent the complaints to The Express and The Star, at which point we were acting on a normal retainer. We indicated to Kate and Gerry and we told The Express and The Star at that time that if the matter was not resolved we would indeed go on to a no win, no fee arrangement.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 13, 2019, 07:20:10 PM
CR are paid a retainer....definition.... an amount of money that you pay to someone so as to be sure that that person can work for you when you need them.


Mr Tudor: Yes. My partners and I talked about it. We have a committee of partners that looks at whether or not a case is on a no win, no fee basis, as you probably heard from my partner, Mark Thompson. We did that with Kate and Gerry's case. It was a longer, more difficult discussion than would ordinarily be the case because of the extraordinary nature, volume and so on. We sent the complaints to The Express and The Star, at which point we were acting on a normal retainer. We indicated to Kate and Gerry and we told The Express and The Star at that time that if the matter was not resolved we would indeed go on to a no win, no fee arrangement.

How much... If anything were they paying for their retainer... As I said any action would be no win no fee
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 13, 2019, 07:33:43 PM
How much... If anything were they paying for their retainer... As I said any action would be no win no fee

A cease and desist letter would not be covered by a CFA and CR have sent a few of them over the years....Pamalam comes to mind and Amazon in relation to Pat Brown’s ebook.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 13, 2019, 07:37:56 PM
A cease and desist letter would not be covered by a CFA and CR have sent a few of them over the years....Pamalam comes to mind and Amazon in relation to Pat Brown’s ebook.

so how much if anything were the mccanns paying CR...you havent got a clue have you...I bet CR wishes ithad another 100 clients like the mccanns...with the amount of lies that was  being told about them
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 13, 2019, 07:46:58 PM
so how much if anything were the mccanns paying CR...you havent got a clue have you...I bet CR wishes ithad another 100 clients like the mccanns...with the amount of lies that was  being told about them

I’m sure CR do wish that they had another 100 clients like the parents.....all that money from the fund. I’ll bet they’re cockahoop.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 13, 2019, 07:48:58 PM
I’m sure CR do wish that they had another 100 clients like the parents.....all that money from the fund. I’ll bet they’re cockahoop.

i think you will find they are way ahead net contributers to the fund...god bless them
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 13, 2019, 07:50:59 PM
I’m sure CR do wish that they had another 100 clients like the parents.....all that money from the fund. I’ll bet they’re cockahoop.
Do you believe the McCanns are Carter Ruck’s most lucrative clients?  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 13, 2019, 08:59:24 PM
CR are paid a retainer....definition.... an amount of money that you pay to someone so as to be sure that that person can work for you when you need them.


Mr Tudor: Yes. My partners and I talked about it. We have a committee of partners that looks at whether or not a case is on a no win, no fee basis, as you probably heard from my partner, Mark Thompson. We did that with Kate and Gerry's case. It was a longer, more difficult discussion than would ordinarily be the case because of the extraordinary nature, volume and so on. We sent the complaints to The Express and The Star, at which point we were acting on a normal retainer. We indicated to Kate and Gerry and we told The Express and The Star at that time that if the matter was not resolved we would indeed go on to a no win, no fee arrangement.

A normal retainer imo means that the client deposits an estimated amount which should cover the work requested.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: blonk on May 13, 2019, 11:51:39 PM
If she was killed in 5a by an intruder then she wasn't abducted..

Mark S basically believes everything amaral and Pat brown has said... He doesn't have a decent grasp of the facts in this case ...Pat Brown says everything  she claims is backed by evidence... It isn't... If it was she would have no fear of being sued 

Pat Brown May well be right that Madeleine died in her parents' apartment.

But, like Goncalo Amaral, she insists this must have happened after 6pm on Thursday 3 May.

Surely this is completely unrealistic - and Amaral suggested that she must have died from a fall AFTER the McCanns went down to dinner at 8.30pm, and discovered that Madeleine was dead on his 9.05pm check.

That would leave him 55 minutes to inform his wife, talk to all his Tapas7 mates, and get them all to agree to perpetrate one of the most audacious abduction hoaxes ever - AND have time to rush off down to the beach carrying his dead daughter down the hill past 9 members of the Smith family.

If all that were not ridiculous enough already, Pat Brown adds to this farce by saying Gerry hid Madeleine "on the beach somewhere...maybe under an upturned boat" (Location 1).

She adds that Gerry or someone else probably came back in the next 24 hours or so and moved her body to a deep crevice in the rocks (Location 2).

Saunokonoko rounded off his 10 podcasts by leaving that preposterous scenario in the minds of his listeners.

Some may buy that tale.

I don't

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 14, 2019, 07:13:36 AM
Pat Brown May well be right that Madeleine died in her parents' apartment.

But, like Goncalo Amaral, she insists this must have happened after 6pm on Thursday 3 May.

Surely this is completely unrealistic - and Amaral suggested that she must have died from a fall AFTER the McCanns went down to dinner at 8.30pm, and discovered that Madeleine was dead on his 9.05pm check.

That would leave him 55 minutes to inform his wife, talk to all his Tapas7 mates, and get them all to agree to perpetrate one of the most audacious abduction hoaxes ever - AND have time to rush off down to the beach carrying his dead daughter down the hill past 9 members of the Smith family.

If all that were not ridiculous enough already, Pat Brown adds to this farce by saying Gerry hid Madeleine "on the beach somewhere...maybe under an upturned boat" (Location 1).

She adds that Gerry or someone else probably came back in the next 24 hours or so and moved her body to a deep crevice in the rocks (Location 2).

Saunokonoko rounded off his 10 podcasts by leaving that preposterous scenario in the minds of his listeners.

Some may buy that tale.

I don't
One day Mr Blonk the penny is going to drop.  I hope. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2019, 08:21:22 AM
Pat Brown May well be right that Madeleine died in her parents' apartment.

But, like Goncalo Amaral, she insists this must have happened after 6pm on Thursday 3 May.

Surely this is completely unrealistic - and Amaral suggested that she must have died from a fall AFTER the McCanns went down to dinner at 8.30pm, and discovered that Madeleine was dead on his 9.05pm check.

That would leave him 55 minutes to inform his wife, talk to all his Tapas7 mates, and get them all to agree to perpetrate one of the most audacious abduction hoaxes ever - AND have time to rush off down to the beach carrying his dead daughter down the hill past 9 members of the Smith family.

If all that were not ridiculous enough already, Pat Brown adds to this farce by saying Gerry hid Madeleine "on the beach somewhere...maybe under an upturned boat" (Location 1).

She adds that Gerry or someone else probably came back in the next 24 hours or so and moved her body to a deep crevice in the rocks (Location 2).

Saunokonoko rounded off his 10 podcasts by leaving that preposterous scenario in the minds of his listeners.

Some may buy that tale.

I don't

I congratulate Blonk and his research group...they have managed to see the impossibility of amarals theory....there is simply no time for maddie to die from an accident...develop cadaver odour ...etc ..etc...its complete and utter b*******.....unfortunately his explanation is even more absurd...thats qhy SY and the PJ have come to the conclusion the parents are not involved

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 14, 2019, 08:30:49 AM
I congratulate Blonk and his research group...they have managed to see the impossibility of amarals theory....there is simply no time for maddie to die from an accident...develop cadaver odour ...etc ..etc...its complete and utter b*******.....unfortunately his explanation is even more absurd...thats qhy SY and the PJ have come to the conclusion the parents are not involved

For guests, the time for cadaver odour to develop was the time between when MBM disappeared and when Eddie was deployed, a period of about 4 months.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2019, 08:43:57 AM
For guests, the time for cadaver odour to develop was the time between when MBM disappeared and when Eddie was deployed, a period of about 4 months.

Cite... That's absolute rubbish and explains how little you understand.  If a body is immediately  removed from the, apartment there will be no residual scent whatsoever
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 14, 2019, 08:50:22 AM
For guests, the time for cadaver odour to develop was the time between when MBM disappeared and when Eddie was deployed, a period of about 4 months.
That is a pretty weird statement.  In a situation of a past presence of a cadaver, it would depend on the length of contact time, and the degree of decomposition at that time.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2019, 08:52:09 AM
That is a pretty weird statement.  In a situation of a past presence of a cadaver, it would depend on the length of contact time, and the degree of decomposition at that time.

It's a totally incorrect statement and requires a cite
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2019, 08:57:12 AM
For guests, the time for cadaver odour to develop was the time between when MBM disappeared and when Eddie was deployed, a period of about 4 months.
The development of cadaver odour requires the presence of a corpse or body parts... So unless you are suggesting maddies remains were present fir four months you are posting absolute rubbish
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 14, 2019, 08:58:49 AM
Cite... That's absolute rubbish and explains how little you understand.  If a body is immediately  removed from the, apartment there will be no residual scent whatsoever

No need for residual scent.

Should I add a goad about your absolute rubbish and how little you understand?  My mother taught me better manners.

If you have something constructive to say, this would be a good time to do so, would it not?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 14, 2019, 09:01:34 AM
That is a pretty weird statement.  In a situation of a past presence of a cadaver, it would depend on the length of contact time, and the degree of decomposition at that time.

Eddie alerted to blood.  Simple.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2019, 09:06:39 AM
Eddie alerted to blood.  Simple.

I did some research before which showed blood dies not produce cadaverine... Can't find it now... But all cadaver dogs do not alert to blood so blood cannot produce cadaverine... So... Your claim is wrong
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 14, 2019, 09:07:42 AM
It's a totally incorrect statement and requires a cite
You are the one saying it is incorrect, prove it is incorrect.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 14, 2019, 09:09:08 AM
I did some research before which showed blood dies not produce cadaverine... Can't find it now... But all cadaver dogs do not alert to blood so blood cannot produce cadaverine... So... Your claim is wrong

Cite please. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 14, 2019, 09:12:48 AM
I did some research before which showed blood dies not produce cadaverine... Can't find it now... But all cadaver dogs do not alert to blood so blood cannot produce cadaverine... So... Your claim is wrong

Try Martin Grimes statement.

It requires no more than a nose bleed, or a graze boarding the flight to Faro.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2019, 09:13:09 AM
You are the one saying it is incorrect, prove it is incorrect.
I've asked sil for a cite... Are you saying he doesn't have to provide one
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 14, 2019, 09:15:25 AM
I've asked sil for a cite... Are you saying he doesn't have to provide one

I've already provided the source.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 14, 2019, 09:16:02 AM
Eddie alerted to blood.  Simple.
I might agree with you about the blood but I said "in a situation of a past presence of a cadaver ...."  The body (the cadaver) would have a different set of factors compared to decomposing blood IMO.

Davel is trying to say that when blood decomposed it would not produce cadaverine.  That is his problem, for we don't know what chemicals a dog recognises when they alert to a cadaver.  Would a cadaver dog recognise decomposed blood.  I imagine that would depend on the training it got.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2019, 09:17:37 AM
I've already provided the source.

what source...we know eddie alerts to blood....are you suggesting blood produces cadaverine...idf so all cdaver dogs would react to blood...i thinkits common knowledge they dont....then we have aeddie alerting where keela did not...so no blood present..you have failed to provide a cte
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2019, 09:18:21 AM
Cite please.

cite for what...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2019, 09:21:10 AM
I might agree with you about the blood but I said "in a situation of a past presence of a cadaver ...."  The body (the cadaver) would have a different set of factors compared to decomposing blood IMO.

Davel is trying to say that when blood decomposed it would not produce cadaverine.  That is his problem, for we don't know what chemicals a dog recognises when they alert to a cadaver.  Would a cadaver dog recognise decomposed blood.  I imagine that would depend on the training it got.

the question is does decomposed blood produce cadaverine...i remeber providing a cite that it doesnt...but cant find it now...if it did then all cadaver dogs would react to blood....afaik...they dont...so therefore blood does not produce cadaverine so sil is wrong....and still has not provided a cite
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 14, 2019, 09:22:17 AM
In my opinion no-one can set a time limit on how long a body must be in a location before a trained dog can detect it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 14, 2019, 09:22:43 AM
Cite... That's absolute rubbish and explains how little you understand.  If a body is immediately  removed from the, apartment there will be no residual scent whatsoever

I tend to agree with you Davel in the case of a body.  "If a body is immediately  removed after death occurs, from the apartment there will be no residual scent whatsoever"
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2019, 09:22:50 AM
Try Martin Grimes statement.

It requires no more than a nose bleed, or a graze boarding the flight to Faro.

no it doesnt ,...wrong again...teh dogs can detect the tiniest amount of blood
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 14, 2019, 09:24:23 AM
no it doesnt ,...wrong again...teh dogs can detect the tiniest amount of blood
You are both saying the same thing basically.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2019, 09:24:38 AM
In my opinion no-one can set a time limit on how long a body must be in a location before a trained dog can detect it.

I think we can....30 mins certainly isnt time enough imo...then we ahve death from a fall...deathfrom a head injury would be due to a subdural haemorrhage...that takes hours to kill...ther is just not enough time
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2019, 09:25:21 AM
I tend to agree with you Davel in the case of a body.  "If a body is immediately  removed after death occurs, from the apartment there will be no residual scent whatsoever"

then why are you allowing sil to post and not provide  acite
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2019, 09:27:39 AM
You are both saying the same thing basically.

no we are not...you have allowed sil not to provide a cite...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 14, 2019, 09:29:25 AM
the question is does decomposed blood produce cadaverine...i remeber providing a cite that it doesnt...but cant find it now...if it did then all cadaver dogs would react to blood....afaik...they dont...so therefore blood does not produce cadaverine so sil is wrong....and still has not provided a cite
The difference you are talking about is dried blood and decomposed blood.  If blood dries before it decomposes it will smell like dried blood (Keela alerts to dried blood) but if it decomposes before it dries a cadaver dog will detect it (Eddie alerts to cadaver odour).
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2019, 09:32:10 AM
The difference you are talking about is dried blood and decomposed blood.  If blood dries before it decomposes it will smell like dried blood (Keela alerts to dried blood) but if it decomposes before it dries a cadaver dog will detect it (Eddie alerts to cadaver odour).

eddie alerts to dried blood from a living person as well...you are wrong to differentiate the reaction of the two dogs to blood...eddis alerts to cadaver odour and dried blood from a living person
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 14, 2019, 09:35:24 AM
eddie alerts to dried blood from a living person as well...you are wrong to differentiate the reaction of the two dogs to blood...eddis alerts to cadaver odour and dried blood from a living person
I think it is you who is wrong.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 14, 2019, 09:37:10 AM
The difference you are talking about is dried blood and decomposed blood.  If blood dries before it decomposes it will smell like dried blood (Keela alerts to dried blood) but if it decomposes before it dries a cadaver dog will detect it (Eddie alerts to cadaver odour).

Blood always dries before it decomposes, if in fact it decomposes at all.

Eddie also alerted to Blood.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 14, 2019, 09:38:27 AM
I might agree with you about the blood but I said "in a situation of a past presence of a cadaver ...."  The body (the cadaver) would have a different set of factors compared to decomposing blood IMO.

Davel is trying to say that when blood decomposed it would not produce cadaverine.  That is his problem, for we don't know what chemicals a dog recognises when they alert to a cadaver.  Would a cadaver dog recognise decomposed blood.  I imagine that would depend on the training it got.

To be honest, I don't really care.  And here's why.

If you research cadaver decomposition, it normally goes through 5 stages.  Each of these stages gives off a different set of volatile organic compounds.  Or to put it more simply, a different smell.

I have little idea what Eddie was trained on / tested on.  Ditto Keela.

I know that Eddie would alert to blood.  Cite already provided.

From research, it appears that a decomposing chicken produces the VOCs closest to human decomposition.

My cadaver dog, Gonçalo, has alerted to two cadavers, neither of them a chicken.

Should I get one of our neighbours chickens to test him?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 14, 2019, 09:38:38 AM
eddie alerts to dried blood from a living person as well...you are wrong to differentiate the reaction of the two dogs to blood...eddis alerts to cadaver odour and dried blood from a living person

As I said "The difference you are talking about is dried blood and decomposed blood.  If blood dries before it decomposes it will smell like dried blood (Keela alerts to dried blood) but if it decomposes before it dries a cadaver dog will detect it (Eddie alerts to cadaver odour)."  When it is based on just blood the victim could be alive or dead.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2019, 09:38:48 AM
I think it is you who is wrong.

I'm absolutely not... Eddie alerts to dried blood from a living person.. It's you that is wrong
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: John on May 14, 2019, 09:39:03 AM
eddie alerts to dried blood from a living person as well...you are wrong to differentiate the reaction of the two dogs to blood...eddis alerts to cadaver odour and dried blood from a living person

I haven't been following this discussion but wasn't that why Eddie alerted to Gerry's dried blood on the hire car key fob? 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: carlymichelle on May 14, 2019, 09:41:17 AM
I haven't been following this discussion but wasn't that why Eddie alerted to Gerry's dried blood on the hire car key fob?

where was  gerry bleeding  from that his blood  went on the hire car key  fob??
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2019, 09:42:01 AM
I haven't been following this discussion but wasn't that why Eddie alerted to Gerry's dried blood on the hire car key fob?

of course...dried blood from a living person
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 14, 2019, 09:42:39 AM
To be honest, I don't really care.  And here's why.

If you research cadaver decomposition, it normally goes through 5 stages.  Each of these stages gives off a different set of volatile organic compounds.  Or to put it more simply, a different smell.

I have little idea what Eddie was trained on / tested on.  Ditto Keela.

I know that Eddie would alert to blood.  Cite already provided.

From research, it appears that a decomposing chicken produces the VOCs closest to human decomposition.

My cadaver dog, Gonçalo, has alerted to two cadavers, neither of them a chicken.

Should I get one of our neighbours chickens to test him?

I think you would be better off with decomposed piglets.
Pig farmers would have these lying around.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 14, 2019, 09:43:13 AM
no it doesnt ,...wrong again...teh dogs can detect the tiniest amount of blood

Like a graze boarding the flight to Faro?   &%%6
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2019, 09:44:05 AM
To be honest, I don't really care.  And here's why.

If you research cadaver decomposition, it normally goes through 5 stages.  Each of these stages gives off a different set of volatile organic compounds.  Or to put it more simply, a different smell.

I have little idea what Eddie was trained on / tested on.  Ditto Keela.

I know that Eddie would alert to blood.  Cite already provided.

From research, it appears that a decomposing chicken produces the VOCs closest to human decomposition.

My cadaver dog, Gonçalo, has alerted to two cadavers, neither of them a chicken.

Should I get one of our neighbours chickens to test him?

f you dont care about the accuracy of your posts then please dont object when they are challenged......the window for cadaver odour production was not 4 months as you claimed...why dont you graciously accept you are wrong
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: carlymichelle on May 14, 2019, 09:44:23 AM
Like a graze boarding the flight to Faro?   &%%6

didnt maddie fall over  on airplane steps theres a video of  it  she scraped her leg??
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2019, 09:45:17 AM
Like a graze boarding the flight to Faro?   &%%6

this has been raised before... there would be small amounts of blood everywhere...but NOT cadaver odour as you have claimed
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 14, 2019, 09:45:49 AM
I'm absolutely not... Eddie alerts to dried blood from a living person.. It's you that is wrong
I think we will have to ask Martin Grime.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 14, 2019, 09:46:58 AM
The difference you are talking about is dried blood and decomposed blood.  If blood dries before it decomposes it will smell like dried blood (Keela alerts to dried blood) but if it decomposes before it dries a cadaver dog will detect it (Eddie alerts to cadaver odour).

At last, some sanity in Bedlam.

All it takes is dried blood.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 14, 2019, 09:49:44 AM
f you dont care about the accuracy of your posts then please dont object when they are challenged......the window for cadaver odour production was not 4 months as you claimed...why dont you graciously accept you are wrong
In some cases it could be if the body was removed just prior to the cadaver dogs coming to do the search.   OK that is unlikely in the McCann case as the apartment had been examined the day after.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 14, 2019, 09:50:20 AM
I think we will have to ask Martin Grime.

Eddie alerts to blood from a living person or a dead one.  Excepting that dead people don't bleed once they are dead.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2019, 09:51:18 AM
Cite's that prove the files tell us the father and his best friend gave the police two completely different versions of the last time they seen the missing child alive.

Gerry McCann's 1st version;
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN.htm
In this way, at about 21.05 the witness came to the Club, entered the room using his respective key, the door being locked, went to his children's bedroom and checked that the twins were fine, as was Madeleine.
Gerry McCann's 2nd version:
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
Despite what he said in his previous statements, he states now and with certainty, that he left with KATE by the rear door which he consequently closed but did not lock given that that is only possible from the inside. Referring to the front door, while he is certain that it was closed it is unlikely that it was locked as [because] they had left by the rear door.
He followed the normal route up to the rear door, which being open he only had to move [slide] it, that being the way in which he entered [was entering] the lounge, he noted that the children's bedroom door was not ajar as he had left it but half-way open, which he thought strange, having then put together the thought of MADELEINE having got up to go to sleep in his bedroom so as to avoid the noise produced [created] by her siblings. In this way he entered the children's bedroom and established visual contact with each of them, checking and is certain of this, that the three were sleeping deeply. He left the children's bedroom returning to place the door how he had already previously described, [then] going to the bathroom. Everything else was normal, the blinds, curtains and windows closed, very dark, there only being the light that came from the lounge.
David Payne's 1st version:
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/Gaspar.htm
"I read carefully the written document/questionnaire provided by David Payne."
but was not able to extricate any other information besides what is already known. He declares that he saw Madeleine, for the last time, at 17H00 on 3/5/07 in the McCann apartment. Also present there were Kate and Gerry. He did not indicate the motive for being there or what he was doing. He also cannot indicate how long he stayed.
David Payne's 2nd version;
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
"So I walked back err from the tennis courts, err back to err you know Kate and Gerry's apartment and the time you know looking at, you know we've looked obviously at photographs since then and you know the time that we've got that I was you know going to Kate's about SIX THIRTY, err and I went into their apartment through the patio doors. The three children were all you know dressed you know in their pyjamas, you know they looked immaculate, you know they were just like angels, they all looked so happy and well looked after and content and I said to Kate, you know it's a bit early for the you know, for the three of them to be going to bed, she said ah they've had such a great time, they're really tired and you know err so I say, you know I can't remember exactly what, what you know the night attire, what the children were wearing but white was the predominant err colour, but you know just to reinforce they were just so happy, you know seeing you know obviously GERRY WASN'T THERE but they were just all."


What's your explanations for these glaring inconsistencies in the witness testimony that you would consider not to be absurd? Hearsay and translation issues are the two most absurd I've heard so far. Are there any others you can come up with?

I've come to the conclusion that there is no proof of what conclusions SY and the PJ have come to. I would suggest it's absolutely absurd of anyone to suggest otherwise.

sorry for neglecting you...ive been responding to 5 other posters...might expalin my typing mistakes and post numbers...

expalnation for inconsistencies...the imperfection of memory and translation..

the mccanns are obviously not being investigated....theya re totally in the clear imo...its glaringly obvious
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 14, 2019, 09:51:54 AM
didnt maddie fall over  on airplane steps theres a video of  it  she scraped her leg??

Yes.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2019, 09:52:55 AM
In some cases it could be if the body was removed just prior to the cadaver dogs coming to do the search.   OK that is unlikely in the McCann case as the apartment had been examined the day after.

so you think the body may have been in the apartment for 4 months.....bonkers
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2019, 09:53:54 AM
I think it is you who is wrong.

I think you owe me an apology
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 14, 2019, 09:54:21 AM
At last, some sanity in Bedlam.

All it takes is dried blood.
Dried blood +/- decomposition.

Eddie alerts to blood from a living person or a dead one.  Excepting that dead people don't bleed once they are dead.

A dead animal will still bleed but it won't bruise.   IMO after working 20 years plus in a slaughterhouse.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 14, 2019, 09:56:25 AM
I think you owe me an apology
Definitely not until we have spoken to Martin Grime himself.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 14, 2019, 09:57:31 AM
so you think the body may have been in the apartment for 4 months.....bonkers
It would be most unusual if it was.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2019, 09:57:59 AM
Dried blood +/- decomposition.

A dead animal will still bleed but it won't bruise.   IMO after working 20 years plus in a slaughterhouse.

blood clots.....the liquid you think is blood ..may not be blood...i  have provided a link previosly
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 14, 2019, 09:58:28 AM
so you think the body may have been in the apartment for 4 months.....bonkers

No need for a body.

Just blood.

Simple as Key Lime pie.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2019, 09:58:51 AM
Definitely not until we have spoken to Martin Grime himself.

are you aware ediie alerted to Gerry mccanns blood on the key fob
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 14, 2019, 09:59:06 AM
Blood dries very quickly, unless there is buckets of it.  Once dried Eddie and Keela can smell it
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 14, 2019, 10:00:00 AM
blood clots.....the liquid you think is blood ..may not be blood...i  have provided a link previosly
Previously  - when?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2019, 10:00:24 AM
No need for a body.

Just blood.

Simple as Key Lime pie.
for cadaver odour you would need a body or body parts...blood does not produce cadaver odour
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2019, 10:01:27 AM
Previously  - when?

about a week ago...that red stuff coming out of the steak in the butchers is not blood..

As it turns out, that “blood” in your steak isn't blood at all. It's myoglobin, the protein that delivers oxygen to an animal's muscles. ... Heating the protein turns it a darker color. Rare meat isn't “bloody,” it is just cooked to a lower temperature..

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 14, 2019, 10:02:37 AM

Davel is not wrong.

Why are we doing this yet again?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 14, 2019, 10:03:02 AM
blood clots.....the liquid you think is blood ..may not be blood...i  have provided a link previosly
It takes a long time for blood to clot inside the veins.  It clots when exposed to the air.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 14, 2019, 10:04:23 AM
Davel is not wrong.

Why are we doing this yet again?
I agree with some of what Davel says but I will not concede he is 100% correct.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 14, 2019, 10:05:35 AM
for cadaver odour you would need a body or body parts...blood does not produce cadaver odour

Hate to say it, but you are not the forum expert on 'cadaver odour'.

Eddie and Keela alerted to blood.

Simple.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2019, 10:05:39 AM
It takes a long time for blood to clot inside the veins.  It clots when exposed to the air.

I dont think thats true....It clots when it stops moving...when theheart stops....have you herad of thrombosis....that blood clots without air..

If we draw blood into a vacuum tube...no air..it still clots
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 14, 2019, 10:07:44 AM
You are not going to be right in everything you say.  You have your understanding and I have mine.  I'll wait till Martin Grime comes on the forum and gives his opinion.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2019, 10:08:35 AM
Hate to say it, but you are not the forum expert on 'cadaver odour'.

Eddie and Keela alerted to blood.

Simple.

you claimed cadaver odour had 4 months to develop...it didnt
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 14, 2019, 10:12:47 AM
I dont think thats true....It clots when it stops moving...when theheart stops....have you herad of thrombosis....that blood clots without air..

If we draw blood into a vacuum tube...no air..it still clots
True there would be other things that activate blood clotting.  I was talking about a bleeding animal after death, the blood has not yet clotted but when it is exposed to the air it will begin to clot.  OK when it hits the floor as well but the blood is out of the veins.  Later the blood will clot in the veins as well.  But that will be quite some time after death.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2019, 10:12:57 AM
You are not going to be right in everything you say.  You have your understanding and I have mine.  I'll wait till Martin Grime comes on the forum and gives his opinion.

eddie alerted to blood from gerry McCann...hes very much alive
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 14, 2019, 10:13:07 AM
about a week ago...that red stuff coming out of the steak in the butchers is not blood..

As it turns out, that “blood” in your steak isn't blood at all. It's myoglobin, the protein that delivers oxygen to an animal's muscles. ... Heating the protein turns it a darker color. Rare meat isn't “bloody,” it is just cooked to a lower temperature..


It's blood.

In any normal sense of the word.

In any person's understanding.

Have you ever heard the chefs on Masterchef saying the meat needs to rest, to cook the myoglobin?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 14, 2019, 10:16:23 AM
If you insist I give a cite immediately for vanessa mae...then issue warng points...when it was agreed that cites did not have to be given for insignificant things....when I ask sil for a cite...you demand a cite from me...thats harrassment...others have noticed too...its pointless denying it
Yesterday you were skiting that you could beat a polygraph.  So I set out to rattle you a little and after a while you failed to answer a question.  You failed the lie detector test. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 14, 2019, 10:20:32 AM
IMO Davel is not wrong, at least on this occasion.

And I am getting very fed up with the bullying.  Unfortunately, there are times when I can't do anything about it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 14, 2019, 10:21:23 AM
you claimed cadaver odour had 4 months to develop...it didnt
In the depth of the grout between the tiles it did.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 14, 2019, 10:22:26 AM
I think we can....30 mins certainly isnt time enough imo...then we ahve death from a fall...deathfrom a head injury would be due to a subdural haemorrhage...that takes hours to kill...ther is just not enough time

As no-one knows what these dogs actually smell then no-one can decide when that aroma becomes available to the dog. Decomppsition begins immediately after death and a dog may well be able to detect that.

Imo a fall can cause instant or almost instant death. A broken neck, for example.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 14, 2019, 10:23:48 AM
In the depth of the grout between the tiles it did.

No it didn't.  Eddie and Keela both react to dried blood.  Which wasn't Madeleine's anyway.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: carlymichelle on May 14, 2019, 10:25:26 AM
As no-one knows what these dogs actually smell then no-one can decide when that aroma becomes available to the dog. Decomppsition begins immediately after death and a dog may well be able to detect that.

Imo a fall can cause instant or almost instant death. A broken neck, for example.

in the  early  days  there  was a theory that maddie might have broken her neck somehow  wasnt there??
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 14, 2019, 10:26:08 AM
IMO Davel is not wrong, at least on this occasion.

And I am getting very fed up with the bullying.  Unfortunately, there are times when I can't do anything about it.
There are multiple things being discussed here.  He's right about somethings but definitely not all.  I'm not bullying him, we are just discussing things man to man, but he is running off to John trying to intimidate me.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2019, 10:26:18 AM
In the depth of the grout between the tiles it did.

can you provide acite that blood produces cadaver odour...if it did the all cadaver dogs would react to dried blood ..they dont...so cite
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2019, 10:27:50 AM
There are multiple things being discussed here.  He right about somethings but definitely not all.  I'm not bullying him, we are just discussing things man to man, but he is running off to John trying to intimidate me.

another ad hom....john has told us if we have problems with mods we should contact him..not reply to the mod in question
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 14, 2019, 10:28:47 AM
No it didn't.  Eddie and Keela both react to dried blood.  Which wasn't Madeleine's anyway.
I never mentioned Madeleine.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2019, 10:29:00 AM
As no-one knows what these dogs actually smell then no-one can decide when that aroma becomes available to the dog. Decomppsition begins immediately after death and a dog may well be able to detect that.

Imo a fall can cause instant or almost instant death. A broken neck, for example.

children dont break their neck falling off the sofa.....
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 14, 2019, 10:29:25 AM
There are multiple things being discussed here.  He's right about somethings but definitely not all.  I'm not bullying him, we are just discussing things man to man, but he is running off to John trying to intimidate me.

You think Sceptics don't run to John?  Believe me, they do.  And frequently.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 14, 2019, 10:37:55 AM
in the  early  days  there  was a theory that maddie might have broken her neck somehow  wasnt there??

I don't know, but it can't be ruled out in my opinion.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 14, 2019, 10:40:25 AM
Come on guys, let's all just get along.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 14, 2019, 10:43:38 AM
Thanks for admitting that your intention was ...to set out to rattle me.....if thats not an admission of harrassment I dont know what is...Ive sent it to John
It was for the purpose of seeing if you could pass the polygraph.  John will see the post I deleted was against the forum rules, it wasn't that serious so you were given minor amounts of warning points but I knew that would rattle you and possibly make you fail the test.  And you still haven't got over it.   You would fail any polygraph test IMO.

i object to your harrassment...when I question you...you dont like it...when I report you to John ..you object and accuse me of running to John..

you are digging yourself a deeper hole

If you report to John, let john sort it.  But you try and sort it yourself as well.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 14, 2019, 11:58:02 AM
Enough chaps.  There's no need to squabble.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 14, 2019, 12:36:49 PM
can you provide acite that blood produces cadaver odour...if it did the all cadaver dogs would react to dried blood ..they dont...so cite
I know from personal experience that tanks of blood produce odours just like decomposing carcasses.  So "blood does produce cadaver odour"

Dried blood is dried properly and kept dry it would not undergo decomposition and hence would not have cadaver odour associated with it.  You would be familiar with blood smears.  It is dried and hence is stable for years.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 14, 2019, 02:01:59 PM
I know from personal experience that tanks of blood produce odours just like decomposing carcasses.  So "blood does produce cadaver odour"

Dried blood is dried properly and kept dry it would not undergo decomposition and hence would not have cadaver odour associated with it.  You would be familiar with blood smears.  It is dried and hence is stable for years.

OK.

I would contest your first point, but I don't think it matters.

So moving on ...

Do you think the cleaners did not use a bucket and mop, hence wetting any blood in 5A?  Our KGB cleaner uses a bucket and mop every time she cleans.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2019, 06:03:34 PM
OK.

I would contest your first point, but I don't think it matters.

So moving on ...

Do you think the cleaners did not use a bucket and mop, hence wetting any blood in 5A?  Our KGB cleaner uses a bucket and mop every time she cleans.

Makes no difference... Blood doesn't just dry it coagulates..... And doesn't produce cadaverine... As I recall that was, a flaw in eddies make up... Most cadaver dogs don't react to blood
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 14, 2019, 06:14:02 PM
I don't know, but it can't be ruled out in my opinion.
What about fell off sofa and got impaled through the heart on an upturned spike.  Can that not be ruled out either?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 14, 2019, 06:27:53 PM
Makes no difference... Blood doesn't just dry it coagulates..... And doesn't produce cadaverine... As I recall that was, a flaw in eddies make up... Most cadaver dogs don't react to blood

If you think the only VOC produced in decomposition is 'cadaverine', you are living in the dinosaur age.

I don't care about 'most' cadaver dogs.

The only dogs in the frame are Eddie, Keela, Tito and Muzzy.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2019, 06:40:24 PM
If you think the only VOC produced in decomposition is 'cadaverine', you are living in the dinosaur age.

I don't care about 'most' cadaver dogs.

The only dogs in the frame are Eddie, Keela, Tito and Muzzy.

if you think blood produces cadaver odour...as you have claimed...you are totally misguided....keela does not react to cadaver odour....only blood...eddie reacts to both....

you have claimed blood would be a source of cadaver odour after 4 months....that is patently false...if it did two dogs would not be needed ...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 14, 2019, 06:45:31 PM
Makes no difference... Blood doesn't just dry it coagulates..... And doesn't produce cadaverine... As I recall that was, a flaw in eddies make up... Most cadaver dogs don't react to blood

Cadaver dogs react to all parts of dead bodies imo, be it blood, bone or flesh.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2019, 06:47:53 PM
Cadaver dogs react to all parts of dead bodies imo, be it blood, bone or flesh.

are you saying all cadaver dogs react to dried blood from a living person......i dont think that is true
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2019, 06:57:37 PM
Cadaver dogs react to all parts of dead bodies imo, be it blood, bone or flesh.

gerry McCann wasnt dead...eddie alerted to his dried blood
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 14, 2019, 07:04:12 PM
OK.

I would contest your first point, but I don't think it matters.

So moving on ...

Do you think the cleaners did not use a bucket and mop, hence wetting any blood in 5A?  Our KGB cleaner uses a bucket and mop every time she cleans.
if they did mop the floors that could explain why blood in the crevices tended to decompose rather than just remain dry.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2019, 07:08:46 PM
if they did mop the floors that could explain why blood in the crevices tended to decompose rather than just remain dry.

who said the blood would decompose...its coagulated...are you still suggesting this blood would produce cadaver odour...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 14, 2019, 07:12:47 PM
if you think blood produces cadaver odour...as you have claimed...you are totally misguided....keela does not react to cadaver odour....only blood...eddie reacts to both....

you have claimed blood would be a source of cadaver odour after 4 months....that is patently false...if it did two dogs would not be needed ...
If a body or a body part, could be a source of cadaver odour after 4 months so can blood as long as they are from the same  species i.e. in this case human.  Eddie was trained to find human decomposition odour.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 14, 2019, 07:15:57 PM
who said the blood would decompose...its coagulated...are you still suggesting this blood would produce cadaver odour...
If you think that coagulated blood won't decompose you are somewhat misinformed.  Dentists prefer after a tooth extraction that the cavity is filled with a blood clot.  That is not because the clot won't decompose. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2019, 07:19:00 PM
If a body or a body part, could be a source of cadaver odour after 4 months so can blood as long as they are from the same  species i.e. in this case human.  Eddie was trained to find human decomposition odour.

eddie also alerts to dried blood from a live human....you are making an assumption that blood decomposes to produce cadaver odour...cadaver odour is produced by bacteria in the gut reacting with flesh...these bacteria are not present in a blood smear.......dried blood is reported to have  a metallic scent
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2019, 07:20:47 PM
If you think that coagulated blood won't decompose you are somewhat misinformed.  Dentists prefer after a tooth extraction that the cavity is filled with a blood clot.  That is not because the clot won't decompose.

the blood in an extraction socket does not decompose it reorganises and gradually forms new  bone...it doesnt decompose it actually gets a new blood supply...probably not a good idea to try and tell me anything about dentistry
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 14, 2019, 07:27:53 PM
eddie also alerts to dried blood from a live human....you are making an assumption that blood decomposes to produce cadaver odour...cadaver odour is produced by bacteria in the gut reacting with flesh...these bacteria are not present in a blood smear.......dried blood is reported to have  a metallic scent
You keep on repeating the disputed item as a reason.  It is your claim "eddie also alerts to dried blood from a live human".
I doubt you understanding about cadaver odour production is correct  You say "cadaver odour is produced by bacteria in the gut reacting with flesh...these bacteria are not present in a blood smear"

Look my understanding was that body parts could be detected by cadaver dogs. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2019, 07:29:29 PM
You keep on repeating the disputed item as a reason.  It is your claim "eddie also alerts to dried blood from a live human".
I doubt you understanding about cadaver odour production is correct  You say "cadaver odour is produced by bacteria in the gut reacting with flesh...these bacteria are not present in a blood smear"

Look my understanding was that body parts could be detected by cadaver dogs.

it is not disputed.....eddie alerts to dried blood from a live human
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 14, 2019, 07:30:07 PM
the blood in an extraction socket does not decompose it reorganises and gradually forms new  bone

OK, so now I can get third set of teeth by having my second set extracted?

I'm not choosing this option anytime soon.   &^&*%
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 14, 2019, 07:31:31 PM
the blood in an extraction socket does not decompose it reorganises and gradually forms new  bone...it doesnt decompose it actually gets a new blood supply...probably not a good idea to try and tell me anything about dentistry
If that is what you think no wonder we can't get past the idea that clotted blood can't decompose.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 14, 2019, 07:32:17 PM
What about fell off sofa and got impaled through the heart on an upturned spike.  Can that not be ruled out either?
If the spike was upturned the pointy end would be at the bottom. Food for thought.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 14, 2019, 07:39:57 PM
gerry McCann wasnt dead...eddie alerted to his dried blood

You seem to accept that Keela's alert to the car key means there was blood on it, but reject the idea that Keela's alert in the boot was to blood.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 14, 2019, 07:43:55 PM
You seem to accept that Keela's alert to the car key means there was blood on it, but reject the idea that Keela's alert in the boot was to blood.
....and those dogs simply can't be relied upon. Unconscious cues and all sorts going off.
Run with the fox and hunt with the hounds and all that, pun intended.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2019, 07:46:11 PM
You seem to accept that Keela's alert to the car key means there was blood on it, but reject the idea that Keela's alert in the boot was to blood.

That's because gerrys blood was recovered from the car key... Simple
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2019, 07:46:56 PM
OK, so now I can get third set of teeth by having my second set extracted?

I'm not choosing this option anytime soon.   &^&*%

The blood turns into bone... Not tooth
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2019, 07:47:41 PM
....and those dogs simply can't be relied upon. Unconscious cues and all sorts going off.
Run with the fox and hunt with the hounds and all that, pun intended.

I'm not trusting the dog I'm trusting the DNA testing
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 14, 2019, 07:49:15 PM
If that is what you think no wonder we can't get past the idea that clotted blood can't decompose.
Look up "suppurative thrombophlebitis"  if you think there is no such thing as an infected blood clot.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 14, 2019, 07:54:46 PM
I'm not trusting the dog I'm trusting the DNA testing
But Keela found traces of Gerry's blood on the key. Pretty trustworthy result.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 14, 2019, 07:55:58 PM
The blood turns into bone... Not tooth

Is it OK with you if I choose to stick with my current dentist?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 14, 2019, 07:57:31 PM
The blood turns into bone... Not tooth
To me that is the most unscientific statement possible.   
"There are two categories of bone cells. Osteoclasts are in the first category. They resorb (dissolve) the bone. The other category is the osteoblast family, which consists of osteoblasts that form bone, osteocytes that help maintain bone, and lining cells that cover the surface of the bone."

So my understanding is that under a blood clot osteoblast activity would be greater than osteoclast hence new bone will form.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2019, 08:03:32 PM
Is it OK with you if I choose to stick with my current dentist?

You're not welcome... The same happens with a fractured bone.. Blood ot turns into bone
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2019, 08:05:30 PM
To me that is the most unscientific statement possible.   
"There are two categories of bone cells. Osteoclasts are in the first category. They resorb (dissolve) the bone. The other category is the osteoblast family, which consists of osteoblasts that form bone, osteocytes that help maintain bone, and lining cells that cover the surface of the bone."

So my understanding is that under a blood clot osteoblast activity would be greater than osteoclast hence new bone will form.

Osteoblasts invade the clot to form new bone.... Can use "bio oss" pig bone granules to provide framework.... It's laughable posters are trying to correct me on dentistry... Football now
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 14, 2019, 08:06:45 PM
If the spike was upturned the pointy end would be at the bottom. Food for thought.
Personally I would rather stand on down-turned drawing pin rather than an up-turned one.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 14, 2019, 08:07:18 PM
If the spike was upturned the pointy end would be at the bottom. Food for thought.
Not the spike I was thinking of.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 14, 2019, 08:10:07 PM
That's because gerrys blood was recovered from the car key... Simple

Who said that? Apart from you, that is.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 14, 2019, 08:12:22 PM
Osteoblasts invade the clot to form new bone.... Can use "bio oss" pig bone granules to provide framework.... It's laughable posters are trying to correct me on dentistry... Football now
Can you find one scientific publication that says "Osteoblasts invade the clot to form new bone"?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2019, 08:12:53 PM
To me that is the most unscientific statement possible.   
"There are two categories of bone cells. Osteoclasts are in the first category. They resorb (dissolve) the bone. The other category is the osteoblast family, which consists of osteoblasts that form bone, osteocytes that help maintain bone, and lining cells that cover the surface of the bone."

So my understanding is that under a blood clot osteoblast activity would be greater than osteoclast hence new bone will form.

Totally wrong
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 14, 2019, 08:15:26 PM
Totally wrong
That was quoting a reputable source, so I doubt that it is wrong  https://depts.washington.edu/bonebio/ASBMRed/cells.html
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2019, 08:18:39 PM
That was quoting a reputable source, so I doubt if it is wrong  https://depts.washington.edu/bonebio/ASBMRed/cells.html

Bone format tion takes place within the clot... It only occurs from the base upwards if the clot is lost
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 14, 2019, 08:23:00 PM
Bone format tion takes place within the clot... It only occurs from the base upwards if the clot is lost
That might be what you think but I strongly doubt you will be able to find a scientific paper that backs that statement up.  "Bone formation takes place within the clot."
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 14, 2019, 08:25:18 PM
I congratulate Blonk and his research group...they have managed to see the impossibility of amarals theory....there is simply no time for maddie to die from an accident...develop cadaver odour ...etc ..etc...its complete and utter b*******.....unfortunately his explanation is even more absurd...thats qhy SY and the PJ have come to the conclusion the parents are not involved

Indeed.
And it would be interesting for Blonk to further explain his alternative theory .
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 14, 2019, 08:27:49 PM
Indeed.
And it would be interesting for Blonk to further explain his alternative theory .
It would also be interesting for the sceptics on here who believe he is wrong to explain why they think so.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2019, 08:28:17 PM
That might be what you think but I strongly doubt you will be able to find a scientific paper that backs that statement up.  "Bone formation takes place within the clot."

You must be joking..... I'm doing this every day...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 14, 2019, 08:31:14 PM
It would also be interesting for the sceptics on here who believe he is wrong to explain why they think so.
Could you point me to said theory? I haven't seen it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 14, 2019, 08:32:44 PM
You must be joking..... I'm doing this every day...
That doesn't prove your understanding of the process is correct.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 14, 2019, 08:36:02 PM
Could you point me to said theory? I haven't seen it.
Does this link work for you?  http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=505

It should be showing Blonk's posts.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 14, 2019, 08:37:05 PM
Could you point me to said theory? I haven't seen it.
I’m not talking about his theory (which is clearly bonkers) but what he wrote on this thread earlier today.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 14, 2019, 08:40:41 PM
I don't know Blonk at all but with a quick look at his posting history he puts a lot of effort into each post.  He must be quite an intellectual to do that.
I tend not to read really long posts. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2019, 08:43:49 PM
I don't know Blonk at all but with a quick look at his posting history he puts a lot of effort into each post.  He must be quite an intellectual to do that.
I tend not to read really long posts.

He must be quite an intellectual... In your opinion... Not in mine
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 14, 2019, 08:51:21 PM
He must be quite an intellectual... In your opinion... Not in mine

Nor in mine.!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 14, 2019, 09:09:03 PM
Nor in mine.!
Do I have to actually read a long post to work it out for myself!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 14, 2019, 09:11:50 PM
Do I have to actually read a long post to work it out for myself!

Perhaps you  should.
Or perhaps Blonk could explain his alternative theory here.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 14, 2019, 09:16:01 PM
Perhaps you  should.
Or perhaps Blonk could explain his alternative theory here.
There are only 15 pages of posts, but each post is several pages long.

Reading portions of those long posts, I'd say Blonk would have to be a lawyer  or something like that to be able  have the brain power to argue the way he does.  I'll stick with the intellectual IMO.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 14, 2019, 09:31:47 PM
There are only 15 pages of posts, but each post is several pages long.

Reading portions of those long posts, I'd say Blonk would have to be a lawyer  or something like that to be able  have the brain power to argue the way he does.  I'll stick with the intellectual IMO.

Good choice.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 14, 2019, 09:36:23 PM
Good choice.
It is hard work reading Blonk's posts, but we could all learn from him I'd say.   That is if you have the brain power to follow it all.  I might tackle it fresh one morning.   His level of research far exceeds anything I do.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on May 14, 2019, 09:43:54 PM
It is hard work reading Blonk's posts, but we could all learn from him I'd say.   That is if you have the brain power to follow it all.  I might tackle it fresh one morning.   His level of research far exceeds anything I do.
Blonk believes that Madeleine died on the Sunday. He's also a master of FOI requests.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2019, 09:44:13 PM
It is hard work reading Blonk's posts, but we could all learn from him I'd say.   That is if you have the brain power to follow it all.  I might tackle it fresh one morning.   His level of research far exceeds anything I do.

So you think we csn all learn something  from blonk... A man who has basically  bankrupted himself by making claims against the mccanns he can't substantiate...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 14, 2019, 10:02:00 PM
So you think we csn all learn something  from blonk... A man who has basically  bankrupted himself by making claims against the mccanns he can't substantiate...
I think Rob is taking the piss, at least - I hope he is!!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 14, 2019, 10:11:23 PM
Whereas I have learned more from blonk's FOIs than I have from our two resident curmudgeons combined.

Funny old life.   (&^&
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 14, 2019, 10:14:54 PM
Whereas I have learned more from blonk's FOIs than I have from our two resident curmudgeons combined.

Funny old life.   (&^&

Who are the two resident "curmudgeons" ?
And what have you learned from blonk's FOIs.?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2019, 10:17:47 PM
Whereas I have learned more from blonk's FOIs than I have from our two resident curmudgeons combined.

Funny old life.   (&^&

You may have but perhaps you didn't know much in the first place... I don't see any of his foi being in any wayvuseful... The foi by ferryman was far more enlightening
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 14, 2019, 10:18:34 PM
Who are the two resident "curmudgeons" ?
And what have you learned from blonk's FOIs.?

Saving Rob the trouble:

curmudgeon noun
cur·​mud·​geon | \ (ˌ)kər-ˈmə-jən  \
Definition of curmudgeon
1 : a crusty, ill-tempered, and usually old man

Well, that ain’t me on all three counts but it does describe someone else on here to a tee, and no, I don’t mean Davel.   8**8:/:
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 14, 2019, 10:33:40 PM
Saving Rob the trouble:

curmudgeon noun
cur·​mud·​geon | \ (ˌ)kər-ˈmə-jən  \
Definition of curmudgeon
1 : a crusty, ill-tempered, and usually old man



Well, that ain’t me on all three counts but it does describe someone else on here to a tee, and no, I don’t mean Davel.   8**8:/:

Tis not me either on two counts.  8((()*/
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2019, 10:51:06 PM
Tis not me either on two counts.  8((()*/

I can see only one curmudgeon... And a sceptic at that
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 15, 2019, 02:44:44 AM
I think Rob is taking the piss, at least - I hope he is!!
As I said I haven't really followed Blonk at all but I think from memory wasn't he a well known campaigner?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 15, 2019, 02:45:40 AM
Tis not me either on two counts.  8((()*/
Not me either. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 15, 2019, 03:05:34 AM
Not me either.

It must be me then.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 15, 2019, 07:56:11 AM
It must be me then.

 *&^^& *&^^&

No, not you!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 15, 2019, 07:58:34 AM
*&^^& *&^^&

No, not you!

Why not?  If you let me I'll be really good at it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 15, 2019, 08:09:21 AM
Why not?  If you let me I'll be really good at it.


 @)(++(*
Im going into Glasgow to meet a friend for lunch.
So won't be able to see how good you are at being one til I return.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 15, 2019, 08:12:11 AM

 @)(++(*
Im going into Glasgow to meet a friend for lunch.
So won't be able to see how good you are at being one til I return.

Okay.  But it might take me all day as I shall have to Google to first and then do some research.  I hope it doesn't involve a sex change as that could take a bit longer.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 15, 2019, 08:16:24 AM
Okay.  But it might take me all day as I shall have to Google to first and then do some research.  I hope it doesn't involve a sex change as that could take a bit longer.

It's a uni sex term apparently according to the definition I've just read.
No sex change required.
So could be me after all.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 15, 2019, 08:42:13 AM
It's a uni sex term apparently according to the definition I've just read.
No sex change required.
So could be me after all.

Oh Goody.  We can collaborate.  Or we can have a competition.  I don't mind which.  But I'll wait until you get back from lunch.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 15, 2019, 08:59:35 AM
Curmudgeon is an insult... Pure and simple.... But I think before sil refers to  posters here as curmudgeons he might do well to look in the mirror
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 15, 2019, 09:00:57 AM
Curmudgeon is an insult... Pure and simple.... But I think before sil refers to  posters here as curmudgeons he might do well to look in the mirror

I don't mind being insulted.  I'm used to it now.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 15, 2019, 10:11:12 AM
I don't mind being insulted.  I'm used to it now.

I don't mind being insulted by posters here either... I just like to point it out
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 15, 2019, 10:18:21 AM
@ 29:30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FX3u2Hp42ic
Martin Brunt: "Do you accept, that she was abducted"?
Pedro Do Carmo: "We don't know what happened..and we have to be erm... prepared to er.. deal with different scenarios".


What different scenario's other than abduction do you feel would put them totally in the clear? Wouldn't the police have to know what actually happened before the last people to see a missing child alive were ever totally in the clear?

We don't know what happened  to Maddie... But it's clear to me that both the police forces involved are not investigating the parents ans don't consider them suspects...

I think Ben Needhams grandmother... Who was the last person to see Ben alive us in the clear... Don't you..

DA Carmo said they aren't suspects which suggests he thinks they're in the clear

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 15, 2019, 10:37:47 AM
Curmudgeon is an insult... Pure and simple.... But I think before sil refers to  posters here as curmudgeons he might do well to look in the mirror

I deliberately chose not to name the two curmudgeons.

You chose to name me.

And that epitomises the difference between us.

It would be interesting to know if our large Scottish contingent understood 'curmugeon' before VS chose to look it up.  It was in common usage when I was at university in Edinburgh.  Has it fallen out of use?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 15, 2019, 10:42:16 AM
I deliberately chose not to name the two curmudgeons.

You chose to name me.

And that epitomises the difference between us.

It would be interesting to know if our large Scottish contingent understood 'curmugeon' before VS chose to look it up.  It was in common usage when I was at university in Edinburgh.  Has it fallen out of use?

As you made the post it's you who introduced the word so you need to take the blame yourself... It doesn't matter you didn't name anyone... You are quite clearly trying to insult two members of the forum....

I'm well aware there are many differences between us... Thank god
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 15, 2019, 10:50:45 AM
I deliberately chose not to name the two curmudgeons.

You chose to name me.

And that epitomises the difference between us.

It would be interesting to know if our large Scottish contingent understood 'curmugeon' before VS chose to look it up.  It was in common usage when I was at university in Edinburgh.  Has it fallen out of use?

its probably still used by old curmudgeons
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 15, 2019, 11:02:36 AM
As you made the post it's you who introduced the word so you need to take the blame yourself... It doesn't matter you didn't name anyone... You are quite clearly trying to insult two members of the forum....

I'm well aware there are many differences between us... Thank god

What blame?   (&^&

Name the two members of the forum you allege I am insulting.

Steptoe and Son?   (&^&

Go on - hit the report to moderator button.  Perhaps I am 'insulting' two moderators?

Don't worry about the differences.  That's how life works.  It's called diversity.  Inshallah.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 15, 2019, 11:08:44 AM
We don't know what happened  to Maddie... But it's clear to me that both the police forces involved are not investigating the parents ans don't consider them suspects...

I think Ben Needhams grandmother... Who was the last person to see Ben alive us in the clear... Don't you..

DA Carmo said they aren't suspects which suggests he thinks they're in the clear

In 2007 they weren’t suspects, in fact the PJ emphatically stated it in a press conference......oh until they were.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 15, 2019, 11:11:23 AM
What blame?   (&^&

Name the two members of the forum you allege I am insulting.

Steptoe and Son?   (&^&

Go on - hit the report to moderator button.  Perhaps I am 'insulting' two moderators?

Don't worry about the differences.  That's how life works.  It's called diversity.  Inshallah.

you are disrupting the forum with your insults...its a shame the mods allow it to happen....im not worried about the diferences...im glad about them...

one diference is Im open...honest and direct...thers only one curmudgeon on the forum...and its yourself...perhaps best leave it there now
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: carlymichelle on May 15, 2019, 11:12:51 AM
What blame?   (&^&

Name the two members of the forum you allege I am insulting.

Steptoe and Son?   (&^&

Go on - hit the report to moderator button.  Perhaps I am 'insulting' two moderators?

Don't worry about the differences.  That's how life works.  It's called diversity.  Inshallah.

some people not naming names take the media  as  gospel  they  believe everything it  spins
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 15, 2019, 11:13:44 AM
In 2007 they weren’t suspects, in fact the PJ emphatically stated it in a press conference......oh until they were.

you might remember...or not...that you raised thsi point before...and I answerred it..

they werent suspects until evidence...or what the pj thought was evidence...came to light..

Im sure that if new evidence comes to light they could be made suspects....i dont see taht happening
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 15, 2019, 11:14:58 AM
some people not naming names take the media  as  gospel  they  believe everything it  spins

yes ..there are some idiots on the forum...not naming names of course...so thats ok
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 15, 2019, 11:16:26 AM
you might remember...or not...that you raised thsi point before...and I answerred it..

they werent suspects until evidence...or what the pj thought was evidence...came to light..

Im sure that if new evidence comes to light they could be made suspects....i dont see taht happening

The point is that just because the police authorities say the parents are not suspects does not mean that they aren’t....and we have evidence of this.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: carlymichelle on May 15, 2019, 11:18:14 AM
The point is that just because the police authorities say the parents are not suspects does not mean that they aren’t....and we have evidence of this.

police  dont usally  tell  the public  details about open cases  stuff  from 12 years ago  means nothing    they could be considered suspects now the police would never  say
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Carana on May 15, 2019, 11:21:05 AM
Peace, guys and gals. :)


Short comedy film "Curdmudgeons", directed by Danny DeVito:
https://vimeo.com/159449591
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 15, 2019, 11:21:42 AM
The point is that just because the police authorities say the parents are not suspects does not mean that they aren’t....and we have evidence of this.

its not just what they say..its everything else too...believe waht you wish....none of the evidence used to make them arguidos was ever confirmed......it was all rubbish...by an investigation that thought they were guity and tried to make evidence fit
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 15, 2019, 11:44:46 AM
you are disrupting the forum with your insults...its a shame the mods allow it to happen....im not worried about the diferences...im glad about them...

one diference is Im open...honest and direct...thers only one curmudgeon on the forum...and its yourself...perhaps best leave it there now

There you go.

Another ad hom.

Should I report it to the moderators?     &^^&*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 15, 2019, 12:09:03 PM
There you go.

Another ad hom.

Should I report it to the moderators?     &^^&*

you have referred to posters here as curmudgeons....I have referred to you as one...ive been open....and honest...youve been sly and sneaky....and that epitomises the difference between us
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 15, 2019, 12:15:06 PM
All this insulting each other needs to stop. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 15, 2019, 12:21:09 PM
All this insulting each other needs to stop.

absolutely agree
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 15, 2019, 12:22:47 PM


Have you remembered how you 'know' that Gerry McCann's blood was on that car key yet?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 15, 2019, 12:26:53 PM
Have you remembered how you 'know' that Gerry McCann's blood was on that car key yet?

wasnt it in the FSS report...if it isnt its my mistake
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 15, 2019, 12:46:01 PM
wasnt it in the FSS report...if it isnt its my mistake

I'm afraid not;

A low level incomplete DNA profile which matched the corresponding components in the DNA profile of Gerald McCann was obtained from cellular material on the key card (286C/2007-CRL(12)).
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 15, 2019, 12:54:30 PM
I'm afraid not;

A low level incomplete DNA profile which matched the corresponding components in the DNA profile of Gerald McCann was obtained from cellular material on the key card (286C/2007-CRL(12)).
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm

Why do they say cellular material?  I think this is because a complete DNA profile will only be found within cells.  Cells could be from handling the key card.  Gerry was driving the car the day before it was taken for examination.  So that doesn't seem unusual does it!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 15, 2019, 01:01:30 PM
Why do they say cellular material?  I think this is because a complete DNA profile will only be found within cells.  Cells could be from handling the key card.  Gerry was driving the car the day before it was taken for examination.  So that doesn't seem unusual does it!

The cadaver dog alerted to it.  Yes, that's unusual!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 15, 2019, 01:13:25 PM
The cadaver dog alerted to it.  Yes, that's unusual!

The cadaver dog that alerts to the tiniest trace of blood from a live person... That's the one
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 15, 2019, 01:18:10 PM
The cadaver dog alerted to it.  Yes, that's unusual!
So someone who drove that car at some stage between late May and the 5th of August had possibly handled a cadaver. 
But Gerry drove the car to Huelva a day or two before it was taken for forensic testing.

So the cadaver odour and the cells (Gerry's) could have got onto the key fob at completely different times.

The cadaver dog that alerts to the tiniest trace of blood from a live person... That's the one
There was no proof it was blood.  Did they see if Keela alerted to the key fob?  If she did then I'd agree it was probably blood.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 15, 2019, 01:19:23 PM
So someone who drove that car at some stage between late May and the 5th of August had possibly handled a cadaver. 
But Gerry drove the car to Huelva a day or two before it was taken for forensic testing.

So the cadaver odour and the cells (Gerry's) could have got onto the key fob at completely different times.
There was no proof it was blood.  Did they see if Keela alerted to the key fob?  If she did then I'd agree it was probably blood.

No proof as to what it was at all
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 15, 2019, 01:20:36 PM
So someone who drove that car at some stage between late May and the 5th of August had possibly handled a cadaver. 
But Gerry drove the car to Huelva a day or two before it was taken for forensic testing.

So the cadaver odour and the cells (Gerry's) could have got onto the key fob at completely different times.
There was no proof it was blood.  Did they see if Keela alerted to the key fob?  If she did then I'd agree it was probably blood.

Ive said before... The police drove it
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 15, 2019, 01:23:08 PM
No proof as to what it was at all
Point I was making is that the potential cadaver odour and the cells may have been applied at different times.  Not necessarily by the McCanns in both events.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 15, 2019, 01:24:13 PM
Point I was making is that the potential cadaver odour and the cells may have been applied at different times.  Not necessarily by the McCanns in both events.

Absolutely  right
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 15, 2019, 01:26:05 PM
As I said I haven't really followed Blonk at all but I think from memory wasn't he a well known campaigner?
Blonk practically identifies himself when he posted this link http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2013/283.html
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 15, 2019, 01:30:33 PM
Absolutely  right
Gerry's cellular material would be most likely from Gerry himself (by direct contact). But he drove the car the day before - so what!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 15, 2019, 01:37:30 PM
Gerry's cellular material would be most likely from Gerry himself (by direct contact). But he drove the car the day before - so what!

Some people see it as evidence that Eddie alerted to blood from a live human, but it isn't. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 15, 2019, 01:44:08 PM
So someone who drove that car at some stage between late May and the 5th of August had possibly handled a cadaver. 
But Gerry drove the car to Huelva a day or two before it was taken for forensic testing.

So the cadaver odour and the cells (Gerry's) could have got onto the key fob at completely different times.
There was no proof it was blood.  Did they see if Keela alerted to the key fob?  If she did then I'd agree it was probably blood.

Both dogs alerted to the key fob.  Please get up to speed on the case Robby.  As G-unit has pointed out, it was 'cellular material', attributed to Gerry.

If, In Dog We Trust  (old but true story), the obvious answer is Gerry's blood.  A person who is very definitely not dead.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 15, 2019, 01:56:43 PM
Both dogs alerted to the key fob.  Please get up to speed on the case Robby.  As G-unit has pointed out, it was 'cellular material', attributed to Gerry.

If, In Dog We Trust  (old but true story), the obvious answer is Gerry's blood.  A person who is very definitely not dead.
Can you find the cite for that please.  In particular that Keela alerted to the key fob.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 15, 2019, 02:10:55 PM
Some people see it as evidence that Eddie alerted to blood from a live human, but it isn't.

grime has told us eddie alerts to blood from a live human...thats proof
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 15, 2019, 02:15:30 PM
Can you find the cite for that please.  In particular that Keela alerted to the key fob.

Not off the top of my head.  Martin Grime?  Mark Harrison?

But the test in the sand bucket at the car park dates back years.  That both dogs alerted is not in contention.  It simply shows that the dogs alert to material from a living person.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 15, 2019, 02:56:01 PM
Some people see it as evidence that Eddie alerted to blood from a live human, but it isn't.
Snip
For example, the human normal red blood cell (HNRBC) is the best known cellular material.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/materials-science/cellular-material

Both dogs alerted to the cellular material found on the key fob which forensic tests identified as Gerry McCann's.

There was no alert by the cadaver dog within the vehicle.

Since Gerry McCann is very much a living human identified by forensics as being the donor of the cellular  material found on the key fob to which the blood dog which only alerted to blood also alerted, I would say it is irrefutable evidence that Eddie alerted to blood from a living person.

What leads you to believe it doesn't?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 15, 2019, 06:10:17 PM
The point is that just because the police authorities say the parents are not suspects does not mean that they aren’t....and we have evidence of this.
You really can’t still believe the McCanns are police  suspects...can you??!  &%%6
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 15, 2019, 06:19:41 PM
Some people see it as evidence that Eddie alerted to blood from a live human, but it isn't.
Is it your belief that Eddie would not to alert to dried blood from a living human despite what Grime himself said in the matter?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 15, 2019, 06:43:55 PM
So if Keela was alerting to Gerry McCann's blood on the car key fob, she was also alerting to blood in the boot and behind the couch in 5A. Grime was correct to tell Mark Saunokonoko that Keela's alerts were corroberated,
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 15, 2019, 06:45:57 PM
So if Keela was alerting to Gerry McCann's blood on the car key fob, she was also alerting to blood in the boot and behind the couch in 5A. Grime was correct to tell Mark Saunokonoko that Keela's alerts were corroberated,

cite for GRime telling MS that keela alerts were corroborated...its total Bs...a cite is surely required for such a claim
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 15, 2019, 07:04:28 PM
cite for GRime telling MS that keela alerts were corroborated...its total Bs

Podcast "Goncalo Amaral" 11:36

The dog responses were confirmed by the recovery of DNA samples.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 15, 2019, 07:07:46 PM
Podcast "Goncalo Amaral" 11:36

The dog responses were confirmed by the recovery of DNA samples.
Who said that?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 15, 2019, 07:11:39 PM
Oi,I'm more of a cummerbund type. 8(>((
I used to like that Butterscotch Cummerbund fella in that Shylock Herms thing.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 15, 2019, 07:12:09 PM
Snip
For example, the human normal red blood cell (HNRBC) is the best known cellular material.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/materials-science/cellular-material

Both dogs alerted to the cellular material found on the key fob which forensic tests identified as Gerry McCann's.

There was no alert by the cadaver dog within the vehicle.

Since Gerry McCann is very much a living human identified by forensics as being the donor of the cellular  material found on the key fob to which the blood dog which only alerted to blood also alerted, I would say it is irrefutable evidence that Eddie alerted to blood from a living person.

What leads you to believe it doesn't?
Do you know whereabouts this statement is covered in the file?  "Both dogs alerted to the cellular material found on the key fob which forensic tests identified as Gerry McCann's."
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 15, 2019, 07:14:15 PM
Podcast "Goncalo Amaral" 11:36

The dog responses were confirmed by the recovery of DNA samples.

yes ...as VS said...who said that...where does MS stop his quote and continue with his own opinion...dna of cellular material does not confirm the alerts and i dont beleive Grime said ....you are quoting opinion as fact
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 15, 2019, 07:16:23 PM
cite for GRime telling MS that keela alerts were corroborated...its total Bs...a cite is surely required for such a claim
What do you want exactly?  It is a podcast and you are welcome to listen to it.  I'll give you the link.  https://omny.fm/shows/maddie
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 15, 2019, 07:25:02 PM
What do you want exactly?  It is a podcast and you are welcome to listen to it.  I'll give you the link.

I want a cite to support the claim... Which g has given... I don't think her cite stands up to scrutiny... She cannot show who said those words... I think it's most prob MS
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 15, 2019, 07:30:59 PM
I want a cite to support the claim... Which g has given... I don't think her cite stands up to scrutiny... She cannot show who said those words... I think it's most prob MS
It is a podcast and I really don't think the words in it have any real evidential value.  I trust G-unit that the transcription is correct. 

What I wanted someone to show me was where in the PJ file it says "Keela alerted to the key fob".
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 15, 2019, 07:34:26 PM
It is a podcast and I really don't think the words in it have any real evidential value.  I trust G-unit that the transcription is correct. 

What I wanted someone to show me was where in the PJ file it says "Keela alerted to the key fob".

G is giving her opinion and IMO is 100% incorrect
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 15, 2019, 07:35:30 PM
yes ...as VS said...who said that...where does MS stop his quote and continue with his own opinion...dna of cellular material does not confirm the alerts and i dont beleive Grime said ....you are quoting opinion as fact
You wanted the cite and you were given it.

G is giving her opinion and IMO is 100% incorrect
I'm about to listen to it for myself.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 15, 2019, 07:42:27 PM
I'd say MS stops quoting Martin Grime at Podcast "Goncalo Amaral" 12:14.

So it is Martin Grimes' opinion in question, or MS's understanding of Martin Grimes' words.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 15, 2019, 07:44:02 PM
You wanted the cite and you were given it.
I'm about to listen to it for myself.

I said I was given the cite.. What's wrong with you... And I responded that G is giving her opinion.. Not fact.. And I think she's 100% wrong
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 15, 2019, 07:47:00 PM
Do you know whereabouts this statement is covered in the file?  "Both dogs alerted to the cellular material found on the key fob which forensic tests identified as Gerry McCann's."

at 03h49 on 7 August 2007 by the dog Keela, that detects traces of human blood, it having
been verified the following result:
03h53 - the dog 'marked' an area of the lower right-hand side of the interior part of the baggage
compartment of the car;
04h11 - the dog 'marked' the 'tidy' compartment [map/glove pocket] on the side of the driver's door,
which was found to contain the car key, the plastic electronic card type, with a key-ring of the
Budget rental company.

In order to confirm that the dog had effectively 'marked' the car key, that was found in the
map/glove pocket on the side of the driver's door, at 04h13, that key was retrieved from the car
and concealed in a place far distant from the vehicle on parking level -3 of the underground car
park.
At 04h14, it was verified that the dog 'marked' the area of a sandbox [bucket of sand] of the Fire
System where the car key had been concealed beneath the sand.
At 04h50, a new inspection was performed by Eddy on the parking level -4 where the above car
key was concealed in an area far distant from the vehicle.
At 04h51, it was verified that the dog 'marked' the area of a sandbox [bucket of sand] of the Fire
System where the car key had been concealed beneath the sand.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EDDIE-KEELA.htm
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 15, 2019, 07:49:22 PM
Who said that?
Mark Saunokonoko is quoting his conversation with Martin Grime.  DNA was found but it was not possible to show who's DNA it was.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 15, 2019, 07:53:37 PM
Do you know whereabouts this statement is covered in the file?  "Both dogs alerted to the cellular material found on the key fob which forensic tests identified as Gerry McCann's."

Thus, the Renault Scenic vehicle was moved to parking level -3 and subjected to an expert examination by officers from the Police Science Laboratory and another canine inspection that began at 03h49 on 7 August 2007 by the dog Keela, that detects traces of human blood, it having been verified the following result:
03h53 - the dog 'marked' an area of the lower right-hand side of the interior part of the baggage
compartment of the car;
04h11 - the dog 'marked' the 'tidy' compartment [map/glove pocket] on the side of the driver's door, which was found to contain the car key, the plastic electronic card type, with a key-ring of the Budget rental company.
In order to confirm that the dog had effectively 'marked' the car key, that was found in the map/glove pocket on the side of the driver's door, at 04h13, that key was retrieved from the car and concealed in a place far distant from the vehicle on parking level -3 of the underground car park.
At 04h14, it was verified that the dog 'marked' the area of a sandbox [bucket of sand] of the Fire System where the car key had been concealed beneath the sand.
At 04h50, a new inspection was performed by Eddy on the parking level -4 where the above car key was concealed in an area far distant from the vehicle.
At 04h51, it was verified that the dog 'marked' the area of a sandbox [bucket of sand] of the Fire
System where the car key had been concealed beneath the sand.
... the present document has been duly signed:
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EDDIE-KEELA.htm


This is elementary Rob and has been referred to with cites given on the forum on very many occasions.  It is tiresome to be asked to provide cites when referring to established fact as you have done of me on quite a few occasions.
Sometimes cites are required and sometimes they are not; in my opinion on this occasion a cite was superfluous or I would have provided one.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 15, 2019, 07:56:33 PM
Mark Saunokonoko is quoting his conversation with Martin Grime.  DNA was found but it was not possible to show who's DNA it was.

You need to read gunits post... Grime dies not say keelas alerts are corroborated
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 15, 2019, 08:05:06 PM
at 03h49 on 7 August 2007 by the dog Keela, that detects traces of human blood, it having
been verified the following result:
03h53 - the dog 'marked' an area of the lower right-hand side of the interior part of the baggage
compartment of the car;
04h11 - the dog 'marked' the 'tidy' compartment [map/glove pocket] on the side of the driver's door,
which was found to contain the car key, the plastic electronic card type, with a key-ring of the
Budget rental company.

In order to confirm that the dog had effectively 'marked' the car key, that was found in the
map/glove pocket on the side of the driver's door, at 04h13, that key was retrieved from the car
and concealed in a place far distant from the vehicle on parking level -3 of the underground car
park.
At 04h14, it was verified that the dog 'marked' the area of a sandbox [bucket of sand] of the Fire
System where the car key had been concealed beneath the sand.
At 04h50, a new inspection was performed by Eddy on the parking level -4 where the above car
key was concealed in an area far distant from the vehicle.
At 04h51, it was verified that the dog 'marked' the area of a sandbox [bucket of sand] of the Fire
System where the car key had been concealed beneath the sand.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EDDIE-KEELA.htm
Thanks for that G-unit.  So am I reading that right that the plastic car key was twice buried under sand, and the cellular material was not rubbed off.
First test was by Keela and another second test by Eddie.

I thought they should have swabbed the card before burying it twice under sand.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 15, 2019, 08:10:46 PM
You need to read gunits post... Grime dies not say keela's alerts are corroborated
DNA was found at some sites.  I don't hear Grime talking at all.  All I hear is MS's interpretation of Martin Grimes' conversation.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 15, 2019, 08:15:57 PM
DNA was found at some sites.  I don't hear Grime talking at all.  All I hear is MS's interpretation of Martin Grimes' conversation.

Makes the podcasts all a bit pointless if that is the best he can come up with, don't you think?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 15, 2019, 08:19:47 PM
You need to read gunits post... Grime dies not say keelas alerts are corroborated
When would they be corroborated to you?  Keela alerts to the key fob buried under the sand.  DNA is recovered from the Key fob.  That seems to be enough for MG to say the alerts were corroborated in his opinion as reported through Mark Saunokonoko.

When would they be corroborated to you?  What did you want?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 15, 2019, 08:22:27 PM
Makes the podcasts all a bit pointless if that is the best he can come up with, don't you think?
He tried to make a difference - that bit about new DNA tests and analysis.  Not entirely pointless IMO.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 15, 2019, 08:23:55 PM
I said I was given the cite.. What's wrong with you... And I responded that G is giving her opinion.. Not fact.. And I think she's 100% wrong

I'm not giving my opinion, I'm reporting what was said in the pdcast by Mark Saunokonoko reading from Grime's email. Whether you choose to believe him or call him a liar is nothing to do with me.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 15, 2019, 08:26:06 PM
I'm not giving my opinion, I'm reporting what was said in the pdcast by Mark Saunokonoko reading from Grime's email. Whether you choose to believe him or call him a liar is nothing to do with me.
Accept nothing, believe no one, confirm everything.  Your advice. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 15, 2019, 08:27:03 PM
When would they be corroborated to you?  Keela alerts to the key fob buried under the sand.  DNA is recovered from the Key fob.  That seems to be enough for MG to say the alerts were corroborated in his opinion as reported through Mark Saunokonoko.

When would they be corroborated to you?  What did you want?

Martin Grime never says they were corroborated... Finding blood would corroborate keelas alerts
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 15, 2019, 08:28:38 PM
Accept nothing, believe no one, confirm everything.  Your advice.
G-unit did that.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 15, 2019, 08:29:58 PM
G-unit did that.
No, she seemed to accept Saunokonoko’s version of what Grimes said as a cite.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 15, 2019, 08:37:57 PM
No, she seemed to accept Saunokonoko’s version of what Grimes said as a cite.
I'll let G-unit respond to that.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 15, 2019, 08:44:32 PM
Martin Grime never says they were corroborated... Finding blood would corroborate keelas alerts
As in visible quantities of blood.  Didn't you read that Keela was able to detect the smell of blood on a knife even after that knife was washed three times.  I doubt if even DNA would be recoverable off a knife washed 3 times.

There are no scientific tests capable of corroborating her alerts in some cases.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 15, 2019, 08:51:25 PM
As in visible quantities of blood.  Didn't you read that Keela was able to detect the smell of blood on a knife even after that knife was washed three times.  I doubt if even DNA would be recoverable of a knife washed 3 times.

There are no scientific tests capable of corroborating her alerts in some cases.

Then the alerts are not corroborated
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 15, 2019, 09:03:42 PM
Martin Grime never says they were corroborated... Finding blood would corroborate keelas alerts

Didn't you say Eddie alerted to Gerry McCann's blood?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 15, 2019, 09:10:15 PM
Didn't you say Eddie alerted to Gerry McCann's blood?

yes...and I also said this today..

wasnt it in the FSS report...if it isnt its my mistake

contray to what some think im happy to admit if im wrong..
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 15, 2019, 09:10:31 PM
He tried to make a difference - that bit about new DNA tests and analysis.  Not entirely pointless IMO.

I think the people who are trying to make a difference as far as Madeleine is concerned are her family and the investigators of Scotland Yard and the Judicial police.

As far as I can see all Mark Saunokonoko has been doing is raking over past errors and mythconceptions which were of no use in solving Madeleine's situation twelve years ago and have even less prospect of doing so now. 
I didn't see anything about the current investigators queuing up to take advantage of the new DNA tests ... so doesn't that make them more than a bit pointless?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 15, 2019, 09:11:05 PM
Then the alerts are not corroborated
DNA was recovered.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 15, 2019, 09:13:11 PM
I'm not giving my opinion, I'm reporting what was said in the pdcast by Mark Saunokonoko reading from Grime's email. Whether you choose to believe him or call him a liar is nothing to do with me.

its your opinion grime said those words..

you dont know where grimes email ends and MS comments begin...you are making an assunption...no ones lying....what we know for a fact is taht grime said...

as no remains were found the only alerts taht can become corroborated are the CSI.....that just about proves what you re saying is false and Im correct
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 15, 2019, 09:15:52 PM
As in visible quantities of blood.  Didn't you read that Keela was able to detect the smell of blood on a knife even after that knife was washed three times.  I doubt if even DNA would be recoverable off a knife washed 3 times.

There are no scientific tests capable of corroborating her alerts in some cases.
...ive read just about everything on the alerts....surely there could be  few blood cells present...invisible to the knaked eye ....if they were red blood cells there would be no dna
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 15, 2019, 09:17:44 PM
DNA was recovered.

could have been skin cells....no forensic confirmation of blood
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 15, 2019, 09:20:21 PM
...ive read just about everything on the alerts....surely there could be  few blood cells present...invisible to the knaked eye ....if they were red blood cells there would be no dna
The samples are so small in some cases they can only apply one test.Either they look for cells or they do a DNA test.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 15, 2019, 09:21:08 PM
The samples are so small in some cases they can only apply one test.Either they look for cells or they do a DNA test.

so no corroboration
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 15, 2019, 09:32:45 PM
yes...and I also said this today..

wasnt it in the FSS report...if it isnt its my mistake

contray to what some think im happy to admit if im wrong..

I'm pleased we've finally got rid of the myth that Eddie alerted to Gerry McCann's blood. Something achieved for once.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 15, 2019, 09:36:53 PM
I'm pleased we've finally got rid of the myth that Eddie alerted to Gerry McCann's blood. Something achieved for once.

It shows how important  it is that posts are challenged and cites given
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 15, 2019, 10:12:41 PM
I'm pleased we've finally got rid of the myth that Eddie alerted to Gerry McCann's blood. Something achieved for once.

Keela alerted to the key fob ... why did she do that?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 15, 2019, 10:41:05 PM
Keela only alerts to human blood. Eddie alerts to human blood and cadaver scent and both could be possibly present. You cannot rule out cadaver scent and I seriously doubt the police would with a child that is missing. Madeleine has been missing for 12 years!

"Identify the EXACT location of blood so small in size that when forensically recovered will NOT provide a full DNA strand despite low copy DNA analysis."
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 15, 2019, 11:00:50 PM
I'm pleased we've finally got rid of the myth that Eddie alerted to Gerry McCann's blood. Something achieved for once.
If it’s a myth he alerted to Gerry’s blood then it is also a myth he alerted to cadaver scent.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 15, 2019, 11:13:24 PM
Keela only alerts to human blood. Eddie alerts to human blood and cadaver scent and both could be possibly present. You cannot rule out cadaver scent and I seriously doubt the police would with a child that is missing. Madeleine has been missing for 12 years!

"Identify the EXACT location of blood so small in size that when forensically recovered will NOT provide a full DNA strand despite low copy DNA analysis."
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm

Eddie alerted to the key fob contaminated with cellular material later identified as Gerry McCann's, while it was in the hire vehicle ... that the alert was to the key fob was confirmed by removing it from the vehicle whereupon the dog sought it out and alerted again.

Similarly Keela sought the key fob contaminated with cellular material and alerted to it.  What does that tell you?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on May 16, 2019, 12:43:49 AM
Eddie alerted to the key fob contaminated with cellular material later identified as Gerry McCann's, while it was in the hire vehicle ... that the alert was to the key fob was confirmed by removing it from the vehicle whereupon the dog sought it out and alerted again.

Similarly Keela sought the key fob contaminated with cellular material and alerted to it.  What does that tell you?

One explanation is that Keela was trained on the individual components of blood ie, red cells, white cells. plasma & platelets. I've no clue as to how an individual component could leave the human body on its own, although the red blood cells carry no DNA.

ETA Nuclear DNA is only found in nucleated cells — this rules out three of the four major components of blood: red blood cells (which don't have nuclei), platelets and plasma. So you only get nuclear DNA in white blood cells, which are outnumbered by red blood cells in the blood stream by about 600 to one.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 16, 2019, 01:13:29 AM
Eddie alerted to the key fob contaminated with cellular material later identified as Gerry McCann's, while it was in the hire vehicle ... that the alert was to the key fob was confirmed by removing it from the vehicle whereupon the dog sought it out and alerted again.

Similarly Keela sought the key fob contaminated with cellular material and alerted to it.  What does that tell you?
If they can clean an object 3 times, and Keela could still alert to blood, she is not alerting to cells or DNA but the actual smell of the blood.   Each species must have it own distinctive smell of its blood.  The molecules making up that smell must be small enough to permeate metal and possibly plastic surfaces.  As a vet I'd agree that each species as a characteristic odour of it flesh/blood etc.  This was noticeable during surgery.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 16, 2019, 06:07:22 AM
Keela alerted to the key fob ... why did she do that?

She was trained to alert to human blood and in my opiniom she did that; in 5A behind the couch, in the car boot and on the key..
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 16, 2019, 06:10:56 AM
She was trained to alert to human blood and in my opiniom she did that; in 5A behind the couch, in the car boot and on the key..

But who's blood?  That's the thng.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 16, 2019, 07:53:30 AM
She was trained to alert to human blood and in my opiniom she did that; in 5A behind the couch, in the car boot and on the key..

may be ...but the alerts are not corroborated...and Grime has is not on record as saying they are...in fact hes on record as saying they are not
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 16, 2019, 08:08:23 AM
But who's blood?  That's the thng.

Keela's alerts, as Grime said, showed them where to look. She was correct because something was found, but the findings weren't all that helpful.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 16, 2019, 08:12:08 AM
Keela's alerts, as Grime said, showed them where to look. She was correct because something was found, but the findings weren't all that helpful.

In Jersey they looked and found a coconut.... Does that mean the alert was correct
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 16, 2019, 08:18:15 AM
may be ...but the alerts are not corroborated...and Grime has is not on record as saying they are...in fact hes on record as saying they are not
Not according to Mark Saunokonoko.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 16, 2019, 08:20:26 AM
Keela's alerts, as Grime said, showed them where to look. She was correct because something was found, but the findings weren't all that helpful.
Keela’s alerts were correct because something was found??  Please explain your logic.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 16, 2019, 08:22:07 AM
Not according to Mark Saunokonoko.

That's your opinion... I think you are100% wrong
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 16, 2019, 08:24:18 AM
may be ...but the alerts are not corroborated...and Grime has is not on record as saying they are...in fact hes on record as saying they are not

I'm beginning to wonder if you understand what Grime means by corroberation. In my opinion all he's saying is that the alerts are corroberated if something is found where they alert. As there was no body Eddie's alerts couldn't be corroberated, but Keela's could and were.

In this case in particular, where the dogs alerted there was confirmation by positive results from the forensic examinations.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 16, 2019, 08:26:29 AM
I'm beginning to wonder if you understand what Grime means by corroberation. In my opinion all he's saying is that the alerts are corroberated if something is found where they alert. As there was no body Eddie's alerts couldn't be corroberated, but Keela's could and were.

In this case in particular, where the dogs alerted there was confirmation by positive results from the forensic examinations.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm
So in your opinion is Grime saying the dogs are always right?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 16, 2019, 08:26:46 AM
Not according to Mark Saunokonoko.

What has Mark Saunokonoko got to do with anything?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 16, 2019, 08:28:55 AM
I'm beginning to wonder if you understand what Grime means by corroberation. In my opinion all he's saying is that the alerts are corroberated if something is found where they alert. As there was no body Eddie's alerts couldn't be corroberated, but Keela's could and were.

In this case in particular, where the dogs alerted there was confirmation by positive results from the forensic examinations.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm
If that is Grimes' definition of corroboration I think we have to accept that.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 16, 2019, 08:32:30 AM
What has Mark Saunokonoko got to do with anything?
He's just another one bitten by the McCann bug.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 16, 2019, 08:34:34 AM
So in your opinion is Grime saying the dogs are always right?
Grime would have to say an alert was uncorroborated if no DNA was discovered at the site.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 16, 2019, 08:38:51 AM
I'm beginning to wonder if you understand what Grime means by corroberation. In my opinion all he's saying is that the alerts are corroberated if something is found where they alert. As there was no body Eddie's alerts couldn't be corroberated, but Keela's could and were.

In this case in particular, where the dogs alerted there was confirmation by positive results from the forensic examinations.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

Sadly, they didn't know what it was.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 16, 2019, 08:40:36 AM
So in your opinion is Grime saying the dogs are always right?

No, that's not my opinion, and nothing I've written suggests that it is, imo. It seems to be a figment of your imagination, not mine.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 16, 2019, 08:41:38 AM
If that is Grimes' definition of corroboration I think we have to accept that.

That isn't Grimes definition..... Cite please
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 16, 2019, 08:46:54 AM
Sadly, they didn't know what it was.

Which is another matter altogether, nothing to do with Grime's role. He and his dogs are tasked with finding a particular type of evidence. Testing it and deciding what it means are jobs for others.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 16, 2019, 08:47:05 AM
If I say.... According to Martin grime the alerts ate suggestive  of cadaver odour and as no one else has died in tbe apartment then it suggests maddies death...


Can you see how Grimes statement combined with mine looks like grime has, said all if that


That's exactly what's happened with the podcast..

I'm 100% grime has not confirmed corroboration of the CSI alerts because he's ON RECORD as saying they are not yet confirmed... I gave the cite 2 weeks ago
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 16, 2019, 08:54:08 AM
Which is another matter altogether, nothing to do with Gtime's role. He and his dogs are tasked with finding a particular type of evidence. Testing it and deciding what it means are jobs for others.

Well, at least we seem to have got that far.  No Proof.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: carlymichelle on May 16, 2019, 08:57:30 AM
Which is another matter altogether, nothing to do with Gtime's role. He and his dogs are tasked with finding a particular type of evidence. Testing it and deciding what it means are jobs for others.


i  think its awesome that someone here in  australia is so  honest  about the mcanns   im betting the mcanns and  their  followers   dont like   him   8(0(*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 16, 2019, 08:58:59 AM

i  think its awesome that someone here in  australia is so  honest  about the mcanns   im betting the mcanns and  their  followers   dont like   him   8(0(*

Hardly Honest.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 16, 2019, 09:04:35 AM
If I say.... According to Martin grime the alerts ate suggestive  of cadaver odour and as no one else has died in tbe apartment then it suggests maddies death...


Can you see how Grimes statement combined with mine looks like grime has, said all if that


That's exactly what's happened with the podcast..

I'm 100% grime has not confirmed corroboration of the CSI alerts because he's ON RECORD as saying they are not yet confirmed... I gave the cite 2 weeks ago

I've given a cite where he says they were.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 16, 2019, 09:05:28 AM
That isn't Grimes definition..... Cite please
You had it earlier from the MS podcast.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 16, 2019, 09:06:13 AM
I've given a cite where he says they were.

You've given a cite where MS says they were
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 16, 2019, 09:07:13 AM
You had it earlier from the MS podcast.

Those were the words of MS... Not Grime
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 16, 2019, 09:09:12 AM
If I say.... According to Martin grime the alerts ate suggestive  of cadaver odour and as no one else has died in tbe apartment then it suggests maddies death...


Can you see how Grimes statement combined with mine looks like grime has, said all if that


That's exactly what's happened with the podcast..

I'm 100% grime has not confirmed corroboration of the CSI alerts because he's ON RECORD as saying they are not yet confirmed... I gave the cite 2 weeks ago
Are you saying if we search the forum for "not yet confirmed" it will bring up your post?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 16, 2019, 09:12:34 AM
You've given a cite where MS says they were

Did you miss this one?

In this case in particular, where the dogs alerted there was confirmation by positive results from the forensic examinations.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 16, 2019, 09:14:42 AM
Are you saying if we search the forum for "not yet confirmed" it will bring up your post?
I can't find your post Davel.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 16, 2019, 09:15:25 AM
Did you miss this one?

In this case in particular, where the dogs alerted there was confirmation by positive results from the forensic examinations.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

Positive results does not equate to corroboration... Or confirmation... Do you have a cite where grime says the alerts, are confirmed... A direct cite from grime
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 16, 2019, 09:16:18 AM
I can't find your post Davel.

Try become confirmed... I can post it later...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 16, 2019, 09:28:20 AM

i  think its awesome that someone here in  australia is so  honest  about the mcanns   im betting the mcanns and  their  followers   dont like   him   8(0(*

I think he has as much right as anyone else to examine the case.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 16, 2019, 09:34:25 AM
Positive results does not equate to corroboration... Or confirmation... Do you have a cite where grime says the alerts, are confirmed... A direct cite from grime

It's not my habit to insult people, but can you see the word confirmation? It means confirmed. The quote is from Grime's rogatory reply.


In this case in particular, where the dogs alerted there was confirmation by positive results from the forensic examinations.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 16, 2019, 09:36:43 AM
I don't believe SY have ever investigated the parents, on that we can both agree. But if my belief that the parents know what happened to the missing child is correct, the complete lack of charges and convictions for anyone else is evidence that only serves to reinforce my view,.

I'm not aware of the circumstances surrounding Ben Needham's disappearance, so I'm aware of no evidence that totally clears the grandmother in that case. Did she give the police two completely different versions of the last time she claims she seen the missing child alive, like Gerry done, do you know? If she did, then you can bet your bottom dollar she isn't cleared in anyone's book.

A note from the moderators:
"Posts are rightly removed by the mods and staff for all sorts of reasons so please ensure when you post that the following is adhered to:-

1. Posts should be relative to the thread topic.
2. Posts should be to the point and polite.
3. Respect other users point of view.
4. Refrain from using bad language.
5. Do no post defamatory comments.
6. Avoid posting while intoxicated.

If everyone sticks to these simple points then deletions should be a thing of the past."

Why are we discussing Ben Needham on the Mark Saunokonoko thread?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 16, 2019, 09:41:50 AM
Keela's alerts, as Grime said, showed them where to look. She was correct because something was found, but the findings weren't all that helpful.
...like the coconut....theres no confirmation keela was correct...no blood confirmed
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 16, 2019, 09:43:38 AM
A note from the moderators:
"Posts are rightly removed by the mods and staff for all sorts of reasons so please ensure when you post that the following is adhered to:-

1. Posts should be relative to the thread topic.
2. Posts should be to the point and polite.
3. Respect other users point of view.
4. Refrain from using bad language.
5. Do no post defamatory comments.
6. Avoid posting while intoxicated.

If everyone sticks to these simple points then deletions should be a thing of the past."

Why are we discussing Ben Needham on the Mark Saunokonoko thread?

because posters are saying simply by being the last people to see maddie alive her parents are suspects.....ive quoted another case to show this isnt alaways teh case
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 16, 2019, 09:49:15 AM
It's not my habit to insult people, but can you see the word confirmation? It means confirmed. The quote is from Grime's rogatory reply.


In this case in particular, where the dogs alerted there was confirmation by positive results from the forensic examinations.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

Thats fine...so grime is talking about confirmation...not corroboration......so whan grime says ...in this case...what is he talking about....and what does he mean by confirmed ......the lerts need to be corroborated
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 16, 2019, 09:57:21 AM
this is a direct quote from grimes witness statement..



The dogs only alerted to property associated with the McCann family. The dog
alert indications MUST be corroborated if to establish their findings as
evidence.

Therefore in this particular case, as no human remains were located, the only
alert indications that may become corroborated are those that the CSI dog
indicated by forensic laboratory analysis.




so he is stating clearly that the CSI alerts...may become corrobortaed.....which means they are not yet corroborated...


so are posters taking confirmed as meaning corroborated....waht is meant by confirmed



www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 16, 2019, 10:02:28 AM
It's not my habit to insult people, but can you see the word confirmation? It means confirmed. The quote is from Grime's rogatory reply.


In this case in particular, where the dogs alerted there was confirmation by positive results from the forensic examinations.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

What were those Positive Results?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 16, 2019, 10:08:10 AM
Thats fine...so grime is talking about confirmation...not corroboration......so whan grime says ...in this case...what is he talking about....and what does he mean by confirmed ......the lerts need to be corroborated
Same thing IMO  Confirmed = corroborated
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 16, 2019, 10:10:43 AM
Same thing IMO  Confirmed = corroborated

if that is the case then Grime is contradicting himself...so  dont accept that
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 16, 2019, 10:19:01 AM
Did you miss this one?

In this case in particular, where the dogs alerted there was confirmation by positive results from the forensic examinations.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

the cite you have given says...where the dogs(plural) alerted...there was confirmation by positive results..


If you want to beleive hat confirmation equals corroboration.....then grime is saying both dogs alerts are corroborated...that clearly  is not true.....

confirmation cannot equal coroborrtaion
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 16, 2019, 10:25:13 AM
Thats fine...so grime is talking about confirmation...not corroboration......so whan grime says ...in this case...what is he talking about....and what does he mean by confirmed ......the lerts need to be corroborated

They mean the same, Davel.

corroberation meaning;

evidence which confirms or supports a statement, theory, or finding; confirmation.
https://www.google.com/search?ei=MCrdXIueCMTZxgPBoYvgCA&q=corroboration+meaning&oq=corrobertion&gs_l=psy-ab.1.1.0i13l10.227739.237088..241386...2.0..0.329.3470.2j24j0j1....2..0....1..gws-wiz.....0..0i22i30j0i67j0j0i131j0i67i70i249j0i10j0i10i70i249.0yy7e802xXE
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 16, 2019, 10:31:58 AM
They mean the same, Davel.

corroberation meaning;

evidence which confirms or supports a statement, theory, or finding; confirmation.
https://www.google.com/search?ei=MCrdXIueCMTZxgPBoYvgCA&q=corroboration+meaning&oq=corrobertion&gs_l=psy-ab.1.1.0i13l10.227739.237088..241386...2.0..0.329.3470.2j24j0j1....2..0....1..gws-wiz.....0..0i22i30j0i67j0j0i131j0i67i70i249j0i10j0i10i70i249.0yy7e802xXE

we cant assume Grime is using them interchangably......if he is then he is saying the cadaver alerts are corroborated...which is patently absurd...


MS is using them as meaning the same thing...as afar s grime is concerned ...that CANNOT be true


looks like MS is making the same mistake as you are...


Grime does say in his rog....the alerts are confirmed by the recovery of evidence
Grime says in his statement the alerts are not corroborated..

that proves me right and you and MS wrong
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 16, 2019, 10:38:51 AM
What were those Positive Results?

DNA
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 16, 2019, 10:40:05 AM
DNA

Whose DNA?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 16, 2019, 10:41:03 AM
DNA

either Grime is confused...chainging his mind...and doesnt know what hes talking about...or to him...confirmed does not mean corroborated....Ill go with the latter
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 16, 2019, 11:53:55 AM
Whose DNA?

Does it matter? Dog says 'look there', people do it and find evidence, Dog was correct.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 16, 2019, 11:58:11 AM
Does it matter? Dog says 'look there', people do it and find evidence, Dog was correct.

It matters to me.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 16, 2019, 12:02:09 PM
we cant assume Grime is using them interchangably......if he is then he is saying the cadaver alerts are corroborated...which is patently absurd...


MS is using them as meaning the same thing...as afar s grime is concerned ...that CANNOT be true


looks like MS is making the same mistake as you are...


Grime does say in his rog....the alerts are confirmed by the recovery of evidence
Grime says in his statement the alerts are not corroborated..

that proves me right and you and MS wrong

In my opinion you are wrong. Keela alerted and evidence was recovered from the places where she alerted.  Her alerts were , therefore, confirmed, corroberated, verified, endorsed, ratified, validated, or certified. Grime's choice of words are immaterial.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 16, 2019, 12:05:08 PM
It matters to me.

It's all in the FSS reports;

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 16, 2019, 12:14:47 PM
In my opinion you are wrong. Keela alerted and evidence was recovered from the places where she alerted.  Her alerts were , therefore, confirmed, corroberated, verified, endorsed, ratified, validated, or certified. Grime's choice of words are immaterial.

As you correctly say... In your opinion... I think Grimes words are very important
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 16, 2019, 12:16:15 PM
In my opinion you are wrong. Keela alerted and evidence was recovered from the places where she alerted.  Her alerts were , therefore, confirmed, corroberated, verified, endorsed, ratified, validated, or certified. Grime's choice of words are immaterial.

That Keela alerted to something, but no one seems sure of what it was.

Keela found something, Your Honour.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 16, 2019, 12:24:59 PM
the cite you have given says...where the dogs(plural) alerted...there was confirmation by positive results..


If you want to beleive hat confirmation equals corroboration.....then grime is saying both dogs alerts are corroborated...that clearly  is not true.....

confirmation cannot equal coroborrtaion
Eddie identifies an area for Keela to search within.  Keela finds a specific spot to test forensically.  If DNA results in the test then both Keela and Eddie are confirmed.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 16, 2019, 12:26:26 PM
Eddie identifies an area for Keela to search within.  Keela finds a specific spot to test forensically.  If DNA results in the test then both Keela and Eddie are confirmed.

As what?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 16, 2019, 12:35:36 PM
Whose DNA?
We don't know as yet.  Plenty of times DNA is found at a crime scene that can't be matched at the time.  If it is blood the victim doesn't need to be dead to get a response from the EVRD and CSI dogs.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 16, 2019, 12:39:43 PM
Eddie identifies an area for Keela to search within.  Keela finds a specific spot to test forensically.  If DNA results in the test then both Keela and Eddie are confirmed.

Confirmed what...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 16, 2019, 12:40:10 PM
That Keela alerted to something, but no one seems sure of what it was.

Keela found something, Your Honour.

The question I was dealing with is whether Keela's alerts were confirmed. The answer is yes they were; DNA was recovered. Keela did her job. Whether what she found was useful is another question entirely and one which has nothing to do with Grime or his dogs.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 16, 2019, 12:44:11 PM
As what?
I missed the words alerts are confirmed.  "Eddie identifies an area for Keela to search within.  Keela finds a specific spot to test forensically.  If DNA results in the test then according to Martin Grime both Keela and Eddie's alerts are confirmed."
He has confirmation they weren't just barking at nothing at that spot.  Note: Not all sites were confirmed.  Not all items or areas were tested forensically.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 16, 2019, 12:47:32 PM
As you correctly say... In your opinion... I think Grimes words are very important

Dog alerts. Samples are taken. Samples are tested. Human DNA is found.
Question; was the DNA found by chance or because the dog detected it?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 16, 2019, 12:53:32 PM
The question I was dealing with is whether Keela's alerts were confirmed. The answer is yes they were; DNA was recovered. Keela did her job. Whether what she found was useful is another question entirely and one which has nothing to do with Grime or his dogs.

Yes indeed.

My doggie, Gonçalo,  is a cadaver dog.  He alerts to cadavers.

He is not trained to be a member of a CSI team.

Nor a member of an FSS team.

Nor a member of the GNR or PJ.

His 'job' starts and ends with alerting to the cadaver.  It's up to others to do all the police bits.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 16, 2019, 12:55:27 PM
Dog alerts. Samples are taken. Samples are tested. Human DNA is found.
Question; was the DNA found by chance or because the dog detected it?
The point I have been trying to make is these dogs do not detect DNA.  Keela trained to smell dried human blood and Eddie was trained to detect human decomposition.

It is hard for even I can see the problem - is the smell the dogs sense really associated with the person from whom the DNA originated.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 16, 2019, 12:58:01 PM
Yes indeed.

My doggie, Gonçalo,  is a cadaver dog.  He alerts to cadavers.

He is not trained to be a member of a CSI team.

Nor a member of an FSS team.

Nor a member of the GNR or PJ.

His 'job' starts and ends with alerting to the cadaver.  It's up to others to do all the police bits.

Are you getting any good Road Kill out of this?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 16, 2019, 01:01:28 PM
The question I was dealing with is whether Keela's alerts were confirmed. The answer is yes they were; DNA was recovered. Keela did her job. Whether what she found was useful is another question entirely and one which has nothing to do with Grime or his dogs.

Confirmed but not corroborated... If you think they are... Then you are contradicting grime
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 16, 2019, 01:08:14 PM
Are you getting any good Road Kill out of this?

Unfortunately not.

There is a chicken 'farm' just up the hill from us.

Chickens are left to run free, and that includes the 'main' road.

My wife steadfastly refuses to run down any of them.  She is still hot on her emergency stops.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 16, 2019, 01:09:34 PM
Confirmed but not corroborated... If you think they are... Then you are contradicting grime
DNA was one of the physical corroborations..  It does not confirm Madeleine died, it doesn't corroborate that.  So what does it point to?  Is there another unknown victim involved?    There were two men seen carrying children around, were the children different kids?   What makes us think they were the same kids, What makes us think one of them was Madeleine?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 16, 2019, 01:10:50 PM
The point I have been trying to make is these dogs do not detect DNA.  Keela trained smell dried human blood and Eddie was trained to detect human decomposition.

I think Keela alerted to the presence of human blood because that's what she was traoned to alert to. Therefore the DNA found was from human blood imo.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 16, 2019, 01:15:35 PM
DNA was one of the physical corroborations..  It does not confirm Madeleine died, it doesn't corroborate that.  So what does it point to?  Is there another unknown victim involved?    There were two men seen carrying children around, were the children different kids?   What makes us think they were the same kids, What makes us think one of them was Madeleine?

Grime hasn't said any alerts are corroborated...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 16, 2019, 01:18:07 PM
I think Keela alerted to the presence of human blood because that's what she was traoned to alert to. Therefore the DNA found was from human blood imo.
DNA is in cells, and there is no DNA in red blood cells (RBCs). The body has a way of removing the nucleus from the RBCs.  The lab must have a way of telling if the DNA is from a human.  (I have no knowledge about that).

Grime hasn't said any alerts are corroborated...
  When would he have said that? 

we know when he did the searches in August 2007
We know when he wrote his report.
We know when FSS sent their report to the PJ.

Does Martin Grime make any announcements after the results come back?  There is a rogatory interview with MG Dated May 14 2008.

In the rogatory he says "In this case in particular, where the dogs alerted there was confirmation by positive results from the forensic examinations. It is the investigators' responsibility to apply the results of the forensic analysis to the suspects, witnesses and crime scenes."

So that clearly states there was confirmation.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 16, 2019, 01:21:09 PM
The question I was dealing with is whether Keela's alerts were confirmed. The answer is yes they were; DNA was recovered. Keela did her job. Whether what she found was useful is another question entirely and one which has nothing to do with Grime or his dogs.

 ... and it was all a great big zero as far as Amaral's theory was concerned which was proved when no charges were brought against anyone either as a result of the visit of the British dogs or of any evidence collected by the police.

That reality is something which Mark Saunokonoko with his podcasts and other sceptics appear not to be able to accept despite each regurgitation of the salient facts failure to change facts more to their liking.

I don't think it is even academic ... I think it is pointless and vindictive while Madeleine's case is presently under the investigation her parents fought so hard and for so many years to happen.

How on earth has Saunokonoko failed to notice that the real investigators have progressed far beyond the fantasies of a discredited policeman who appeared to be less concerned with finding Madeleine than convicting her mother?

Twelve years ago is historical in investigative terms and all the insinuation and innuendo stemming from constant revisiting cannot alter the fact that there are two very serious investigations being conducted by Scotland Yard and the Judicial police into what actually happened to Madeleine McCann ... neither of which I am almost certain, will be relying either on Saunokonoko podcasts or Amaral's thesis to inform them.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 16, 2019, 01:31:53 PM
... and it was all a great big zero as far as Amaral's theory was concerned which was proved when no charges were brought against anyone either as a result of the visit of the British dogs or of any evidence collected by the police.

That reality is something which Mark Saunokonoko with his podcasts and other sceptics appear not to be able to accept despite each regurgitation of the salient facts failure to change facts more to their liking.

I don't think it is even academic ... I think it is pointless and vindictive while Madeleine's case is presently under the investigation her parents fought so hard and for so many years to happen.

How on earth has Saunokonoko failed to notice that the real investigators have progressed far beyond the fantasies of a discredited policeman who appeared to be less concerned with finding Madeleine than convicting her mother?

Twelve years ago is historical in investigative terms and all the insinuation and innuendo stemming from constant revisiting cannot alter the fact that there are two very serious investigations being conducted by Scotland Yard and the Judicial police into what actually happened to Madeleine McCann ... neither of which I am almost certain, will be relying either on Saunokonoko podcasts or Amaral's thesis to inform them.


 8@??)(     Very well said
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 16, 2019, 01:34:12 PM
From MG rogatory
'The dog EVRD also alerts to blood from a live human being or only from a cadaver'   [This bit is the question being asked.]

The dog EVRD is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being.

IMO the total idea expressed here is that the blood has to be decomposed but it can still come from a live person.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 16, 2019, 01:38:44 PM
Why is Colin Sutton bemoaning the fact that he wouldn't have been able to interview the McCann's if he had led OG when he thinks that Madeleine has been abducted !!!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 16, 2019, 01:38:54 PM
From MG rogatory
'The dog EVRD also alerts to blood from a live human being or only from a cadaver'   [This bit is the question being asked.]

The dog EVRD is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being.

IMO the total idea expressed here is that the blood has to be decomposed but it can still come from a live person.

Dried blood
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 16, 2019, 01:48:40 PM
Eddie alerted to the key fob contaminated with cellular material later identified as Gerry McCann's, while it was in the hire vehicle ... that the alert was to the key fob was confirmed by removing it from the vehicle whereupon the dog sought it out and alerted again.

Similarly Keela sought the key fob contaminated with cellular material and alerted to it.  What does that tell you?

Keela also alerted in the boot and that is where a body would have been if there was one. The key was not in the boot which suggests a different source.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 16, 2019, 02:23:23 PM
DNA is in cells, and there is no DNA in red blood cells (RBCs). The body has a way of removing the nucleus from the RBCs.  The lab must have a way of telling if the DNA is from a human.  (I have no knowledge about that).
  When would he have said that? 

we know when he did the searches in August 2007
We know when he wrote his report.
We know when FSS sent their report to the PJ.

Does Martin Grime make any announcements after the results come back?  There is a rogatory interview with MG Dated May 14 2008.

In the rogatory he says "In this case in particular, where the dogs alerted there was confirmation by positive results from the forensic examinations. It is the investigators' responsibility to apply the results of the forensic analysis to the suspects, witnesses and crime scenes."

So that clearly states there was confirmation.

Grimes, statement... August... FSS report July... So grime says the only alerts that can become corroborated are the CSI... A month after the FSS results, were, sent...

He states confirmation... Not corroboration
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 16, 2019, 05:22:31 PM
... and it was all a great big zero as far as Amaral's theory was concerned which was proved when no charges were brought against anyone either as a result of the visit of the British dogs or of any evidence collected by the police.

That reality is something which Mark Saunokonoko with his podcasts and other sceptics appear not to be able to accept despite each regurgitation of the salient facts failure to change facts more to their liking.

I don't think it is even academic ... I think it is pointless and vindictive while Madeleine's case is presently under the investigation her parents fought so hard and for so many years to happen.

How on earth has Saunokonoko failed to notice that the real investigators have progressed far beyond the fantasies of a discredited policeman who appeared to be less concerned with finding Madeleine than convicting her mother?

Twelve years ago is historical in investigative terms and all the insinuation and innuendo stemming from constant revisiting cannot alter the fact that there are two very serious investigations being conducted by Scotland Yard and the Judicial police into what actually happened to Madeleine McCann ... neither of which I am almost certain, will be relying either on Saunokonoko podcasts or Amaral's thesis to inform them.

However. This thread exists because Saunokonoko did his podcasts, corresponded with Grime and reported that Grime mentioned that the dog alerts were confirmed, just as he did in his rogatory reply in 2008.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 16, 2019, 06:01:39 PM

 8@??)(     Very well said

Indeed!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 16, 2019, 06:05:38 PM
No, that's not my opinion, and nothing I've written suggests that it is, imo. It seems to be a figment of your imagination, not mine.
It was a question, all you had to do was answer in a civil manner. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 16, 2019, 06:08:24 PM
However. This thread exists because Saunokonoko did his podcasts, corresponded with Grime and reported that Grime mentioned that the dog alerts were confirmed, just as he did in his rogatory reply in 2008.

Has he corresponded with anyone who is involved in the two current investigations?

I've not listened to the podcasts.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 16, 2019, 06:10:02 PM
Does it matter? Dog says 'look there', people do it and find evidence, Dog was correct.
Only if the evidence was found to be blood or body parts. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 16, 2019, 06:16:25 PM
However. This thread exists because Saunokonoko did his podcasts, corresponded with Grime and reported that Grime mentioned that the dog alerts were confirmed, just as he did in his rogatory reply in 2008.

I find it illuminating that Saunokonoko didn’t use modern communication methods to actually communicate one to one with Martin Grime and allow his voice to be heard in his podcast.

Paraphrasing what Martin Grime said in an email is hardly state of the art is it?  For all we know Saunokonoko could have been receiving a brush off and was told to read the files.  Which he obviously did while putting his own spin on it as so many do.

It really doesn’t alter the fact that things have moved on way beyond the dogs and way beyond 2007 when the forensics didn’t match the expectation the PJ had of the dogs which were thus an irrelevance then and even more of an irrelevance today.

Scotland Yard and the Judicial police are presently following evidence which I don’t think will owe much if anything to Eddie and Keela because nothing except sceptic hopes and dreams for great disaster to befall Madeleine's family has stood still for the past twelve years.

I've had a quick glance at Saunokonoko's twitter feed and boy oh boy plus c'est la męme chose still rules  *&^^&
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 16, 2019, 06:18:05 PM
The question I was dealing with is whether Keela's alerts were confirmed. The answer is yes they were; DNA was recovered. Keela did her job. Whether what she found was useful is another question entirely and one which has nothing to do with Grime or his dogs.
And in his, statement... Made one month after the release if the FSs results he stated thst the CSI alerts were not yet corroborated....

You think grime is saying confirmed means corroborated... That's, speculation... If he is... He is contradicting himself
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 16, 2019, 06:42:01 PM
And in his, statement... Made one month after the release if the FSs results he stated thst the CSI alerts were not yet corroborated....

You think grime is saying confirmed means corroborated... That's, speculation... If he is... He is contradicting himself

I think you've got your timescales wrong. The FSS didn't produce any results in July afaik.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 16, 2019, 06:55:10 PM
I find it illuminating that Saunokonoko didn’t use modern communication methods to actually communicate one to one with Martin Grime and allow his voice to be heard in his podcast.

Paraphrasing what Martin Grime said in an email is hardly state of the art is it?  For all we know Saunokonoko could have been receiving a brush off and was told to read the files.  Which he obviously did while putting his own spin on it as so many do.

It really doesn’t alter the fact that things have moved on way beyond the dogs and way beyond 2007 when the forensics didn’t match the expectation the PJ had of the dogs which were thus an irrelevance then and even more of an irrelevance today.

Scotland Yard and the Judicial police are presently following evidence which I don’t think will owe much if anything to Eddie and Keela because nothing except sceptic hopes and dreams for great disaster to befall Madeleine's family has stood still for the past twelve years.

I've had a quick glance at Saunokonoko's twitter feed and boy oh boy plus c'est la męme chose still rules  *&^^&

MS has blocked anyone who does not support his theories... Blocked and tweets removed
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 16, 2019, 07:24:39 PM
Dried blood
That might have been a slip of the tongue.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 16, 2019, 07:31:34 PM
That might have been a slip of the tongue.

What might have
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 16, 2019, 07:34:32 PM
Grimes, statement... August... FSS report July... So grime says the only alerts that can become corroborated are the CSI... A month after the FSS results, were, sent...

He states confirmation... Not corroboration
How can anyone like what you have just posted, for how can there be an FSS report in July for tests commenced in August.

Some parts of the document commonly called the Lowe Report has July dates, but other parts have September dates.
"
2617 to 2623  Email from Stuart Prior re: FSS analysis (English) and translation into Portuguese)
....
Task Portugal
From: "Prior Stuart" <Stuart.Prior@leicestershire.pnn.police.uk>
To: "Task Portugal" <Task.Portugal@leicestershire.pnn.police.uk>
Sent: 04 September 2007 10:14
Subject: FW: Op Task - in Confidence"
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 16, 2019, 07:39:22 PM
Has he corresponded with anyone who is involved in the two current investigations?

I've not listened to the podcasts.
Not the current investigation IIRC.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 16, 2019, 07:43:19 PM
Only if the evidence was found to be blood or body parts.
There is no way to confirm or deny it was blood, but because of Keela's training one is persuaded to accept it was blood if DNA is found.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 16, 2019, 07:48:20 PM
And in his, statement... Made one month after the release if the FSs results he stated thst the CSI alerts were not yet corroborated....

You think grime is saying confirmed means corroborated... That's, speculation... If he is... He is contradicting himself
Put actual dates to the documents you are referring to please?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 16, 2019, 07:50:03 PM
I think you've got your timescales wrong. The FSS didn't produce any results in July afaik.
09-Processos Vol IX Pages 2280 to 2281  http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 16, 2019, 07:51:03 PM
What might have
The words dried blood. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 16, 2019, 07:54:14 PM
The words dried blood.


Keela only alerts to blood dried in situ
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 16, 2019, 07:54:56 PM
I find it illuminating that Saunokonoko didn’t use modern communication methods to actually communicate one to one with Martin Grime and allow his voice to be heard in his podcast.

Paraphrasing what Martin Grime said in an email is hardly state of the art is it?  For all we know Saunokonoko could have been receiving a brush off and was told to read the files.  Which he obviously did while putting his own spin on it as so many do.

It really doesn’t alter the fact that things have moved on way beyond the dogs and way beyond 2007 when the forensics didn’t match the expectation the PJ had of the dogs which were thus an irrelevance then and even more of an irrelevance today.

Scotland Yard and the Judicial police are presently following evidence which I don’t think will owe much if anything to Eddie and Keela because nothing except sceptic hopes and dreams for great disaster to befall Madeleine's family has stood still for the past twelve years.

I've had a quick glance at Saunokonoko's twitter feed and boy oh boy plus c'est la męme chose still rules  *&^^&

If people want to revisit the whole investigation why shouldn't they? It really seems to annoy you for some reason.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 16, 2019, 07:59:12 PM
Not the current investigation IIRC.

He rang OG and got the answerphone. He rang the Met and got the answerphone.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 16, 2019, 08:02:38 PM

Keela only alerts to blood dried in situ
And what does that mean exactly?

Does that mean if you got dried powdered blood dried that had been dried in a lab and sprinkled it onto a crime scene she wouldn't alert?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 16, 2019, 08:04:11 PM
And what does that mean exactly?

I think it's pretty obvious
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 16, 2019, 08:05:46 PM
He rang OG and got the answerphone. He rang the Met and got the answerphone.

Both forces are bogged down by the abduction evidence....
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 16, 2019, 08:06:19 PM
If people want to revisit the whole investigation why shouldn't they? It really seems to annoy you for some reason.

No one of importance is taking any notice of him
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 16, 2019, 08:14:46 PM
He rang OG and got the answerphone. He rang the Met and got the answerphone.
Did he leave a message?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 16, 2019, 08:18:55 PM
Did he leave a message?

No, he just put the phone down disconsolately and abandoned his podcast, then threw his lot in as a journalist.
Of course he left a message.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 16, 2019, 08:23:22 PM
No, he just put the phone down disconsolately and abandoned his podcast, then threw his lot in as a journalist.
Of course he left a message.

Do you know what his message was?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 16, 2019, 08:26:38 PM
No one of importance is taking any notice of him

Did these important people tell you that or are you guessing?

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 16, 2019, 08:27:48 PM
Do you know what his message was?
Listen to the podcast at least twice.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 16, 2019, 08:33:26 PM
Listen to the podcast at least twice.

I honestly don't have the time.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 16, 2019, 08:34:18 PM
Did these important people tell you that or are you guessing?

It obvious
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 16, 2019, 08:55:12 PM
I honestly don't have the time.
Listen to it twice at the same time.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 16, 2019, 09:05:44 PM
Listen to it twice at the same time.

Have you listened to it?
Perhaps I shouldn't post on this thread as I haven't .
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 16, 2019, 09:13:29 PM
Have you listened to it?
Perhaps I shouldn't post on this thread as I haven't .

I'll say this, it's well researched and the talking heads are balanced out - he's putting both sides out there.
It's interwoven with some dramatically posed questions complete with music for suspense, but then it is a professionally produced series. I'm not a fan of Pat Brown's extensive airtime, nor Jim Gamble's.
No doubt supporters will castigate it, but it was a decent listen and he seems to have tried to push the development of the DNA analysis.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 16, 2019, 09:20:36 PM
I'll say this, it's well researched and the talking heads are balanced out - he's putting both sides out there.
It's interwoven with some dramatically posed questions complete with music for suspense, but then it is a professionally produced series. I'm not a fan of Pat Brown's extensive airtime, nor Jim Gamble's.
No doubt supporters will castigate it, but it was a decent listen and he seems to have tried to push the development of the DNA analysis

And what has it achieved?
Apart from the discussion here and on other Madeleine forums.

Naive question here.
Has it earned him money?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 16, 2019, 09:23:50 PM
Listen to it twice at the same time.
listen to it at twice normal speed.  I do this on YouTube.  It makes a man sound like a woman.  Women seem to speak at twice the rate that guys do.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 16, 2019, 09:26:20 PM
And what has it achieved?
Apart from the discussion here and on other Madeleine forums.

Naive question here.
Has it earned him money?
Well it didn't cost me money to listen to it.  Maybe  there are version that you pay for.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 16, 2019, 09:29:11 PM
And what has it achieved?
Apart from the discussion here and on other Madeleine forums.

Naive question here.
Has it earned him money?
No idea what it's achieved Channel 9 have access to several million listeners in Oz I imagine.

How much did he make? No idea. Probably his 9News salary. Looks like he's an actual journalist.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 17, 2019, 12:22:31 AM
Well it didn't cost me money to listen to it.  Maybe  there are version that you pay for.
8 Ways Podcasters Can Profit From Their Shows
https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/277912
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 17, 2019, 07:10:34 AM
No idea what it's achieved Channel 9 have access to several million listeners in Oz I imagine.

How much did he make? No idea. Probably his 9News salary. Looks like he's an actual journalist.
When you google his name its just page after page of results about the McCann case.  Looks like it has been very profitable for him one way or another.  Did he do anything of note before latching on to this case I wonder...?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 17, 2019, 07:40:04 AM
And what has it achieved?
Apart from the discussion here and on other Madeleine forums.

Naive question here.
Has it earned him money?

What the podcasrs have done is collect, organise and examine various issues all in one place. Some people think the past should be forgotten but how can it? If current investigators find a solution it will need to explain not just who but how, why and when. It will have to fit with the evidence given by the witnesses at the time.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 17, 2019, 07:56:40 AM
What the podcasrs have done is collect, organise and examine various issues all in one place. Some people think the past should be forgotten but how can it? If current investigators find a solution it will need to explain not just who but how, why and when. It will have to fit with the evidence given by the witnesses at the time.
Abduction is possible and therefore must fit with all the present evidence
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 17, 2019, 08:14:19 AM
What the podcasrs have done is collect, organise and examine various issues all in one place. Some people think the past should be forgotten but how can it? If current investigators find a solution it will need to explain not just who but how, why and when. It will have to fit with the evidence given by the witnesses at the time.
Gerry being Smithman does not fit with the evidence given by the witnesses at the time.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 17, 2019, 08:42:23 AM
Not only is abduction possible... It had to rate as quite likely
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 17, 2019, 09:33:20 AM
It's perfectly possible that the statements were correctly recorded and that both men gave two very different accounts of their movements on 3rd May. .
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 17, 2019, 09:40:09 AM
It's perfectly possible that the statements were correctly recorded and that both men gave two very different accounts of their movements on 3rd May. .

...so it may or may not be reliable...therefore we dont have a record which we know for certain is accurate and therefore reliable,,...thats fact..not opinion


something is relieble if we can rely on it to be accurate...we simply dont know if the translation is accurate ......therefore we cannot rely upon it
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 17, 2019, 10:28:57 AM
...so it may or may not be reliable...therefore we dont have a record which we know for certain is accurate and therefore reliable,,...thats fact..not opinion


something is relieble if we can rely on it to be accurate...we simply dont know if the translation is accurate ......therefore we cannot rely upon it

You obviously have no explanation for the inconsistences so have relied on discrediting the statements instead.
Your attempts have failed miserably in my opinion so the inconsistences remain.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 17, 2019, 10:34:21 AM
Abduction is possible and therefore must fit with all the present evidence
Do you think it doesn't?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 17, 2019, 10:45:44 AM
When you google his name its just page after page of results about the McCann case.  Looks like it has been very profitable for him one way or another.  Did he do anything of note before latching on to this case I wonder...?

I find the continual reference to money highly bemusing.

When I got flame-roasted for my Luz Tours, the 2 reporters were at least accurate in saying that I don't charge for them.  But I got flame-roasted anyway.

A while back I was looking up something else, and I came across a YouTube clip of Loose Women.  It must have been from when the Luz Tours story broke, because they discussed it on TV briefly.  After condemning the Tours, the panel leader pointed out that I didn't charge for them.  According to panelist Babs Windsor, that made my 'offence' even worse.

I can see no issue with people making money from the case.  It takes a lot of time an effort to write a book.  I only know of one free one.  Then there's the reporters, making money by selling copy, or broadcasts.  Plus of course the photographers and video crew.  And all the police who have worked on it as part of their job.

And I would assume that Babs Windsor was paid for her appearance on Loose Women.  Should she have given part of her money to charity?  Ditto the other panelists, the interview leader and the entire production crew?

Even the McCanns had made money from the event.

So kindly think of all that the next time you consider moralising about making money from the disappearance.

Mark Saunokonoko is no different in that respect to most of the others in the spotlight who have done exactly the same.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 17, 2019, 11:01:45 AM
You obviously have no explanation for the inconsistences so have relied on discrediting the statements instead.
Your attempts have failed miserably in my opinion so the inconsistences remain.
LOL...One of the explanations is that the stateemnts were taken in such a way that we cannot guarantee their accuracy...that is an absolute fact...we have Rebelo suggesting it...we have Colin Sutton suggesting it ...and we have kate stating it as fact....your refusal to aknowledge the possibility gives you no credibility...imo
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 17, 2019, 11:02:44 AM
Do you think it doesn't?

of course it does...is there anyone saying abduction is impossible...if it isnt ...it must satisfy all the known facts
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 17, 2019, 11:08:31 AM
You are posting your opinion as a fact, which it isn't. It's perfectly possible that the statements were correctly recorded and that both men gave two very different accounts of their movements on 3rd May. .

The statement where David Payne says he visited 5a at 5o'clock is obviously wrong,  an error in translation or he got confused.   At 5 o'clock they were all on the beach,  they saw Kate go past jogging,  Russell  -

 Ella went back to the kids club and I went out with Matt sailing, I Jane was looking after Evie.  Whilst I was out sailing with Matt he fell in the water, I had to sail back to save him this made the day quite memorable that and it being the best day weather wise.  When we came back Jane was at the beach with the children, I recall that at some point around 17:00-17:30 Kate was out running she was dressed in her full running kit which was a vest and shorts- one item was grey and the other pale blue but I cannot say which way round.

They were all there,  so they must all be lying if they said David was with them.  IMO
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 17, 2019, 11:29:25 AM
As for Gerry saying he entered through the front door then changing it to the patio doors.   There again a simple error caused by confusion.    Gerry did enter via the front door every time Kate and the children went out,  Kate and the children would leave via the patio doors and Gerry went through the front door,  then coming home,  Gerry went through the front door and then opened the patio doors to let Kate and twins inside.   So Gerry saying that is not surprising IMO
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 17, 2019, 11:57:28 AM
What the podcasrs have done is collect, organise and examine various issues all in one place. Some people think the past should be forgotten but how can it? If current investigators find a solution it will need to explain not just who but how, why and when. It will have to fit with the evidence given by the witnesses at the time.

Mark Saunokonoko's podcasts deal with issues which were fully investigated by the Portuguese justice system of the time which saw fit to close the investigation into Madeleine's disappearance.

That effectively closed the door on it and only the unceasing, untiring and ultimately successful efforts made by her parents to have her case reopened and investigated has given any meaningful chance to have what happened to Madeleine any chance of being revealed.

Scotland Yard and the Judicial police both of whom had and have infinitely more resources than an amateur at their disposal ... have looked at the cold case files and dealt with them ... before going on to deal with the evidence missed and new evidence which has arisen since.

I find the innuendo and libel which sometimes arises as a result of amateur misunderstanding and failure to think of context very disturbing indeed ... but most of all it is the accompanying unpleasantness and unkindness ... of which I have discovered Mark Saunokonoko's twitter feed is rife ... which causes me to despair of my fellow human beings.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 17, 2019, 12:01:47 PM
Mark Saunokonoko's podcasts deal with issues which were fully investigated by the Portuguese justice system of the time which saw fit to close the investigation into Madeleine's disappearance.

That effectively closed the door on it and only the unceasing, untiring and ultimately successful efforts made by her parents to have her case reopened and investigated has given any meaningful chance to have what happened to Madeleine any chance of being revealed.

Scotland Yard and the Judicial police both of whom had and have infinitely more resources than an amateur at their disposal ... have looked at the cold case files and dealt with them ... before going on to deal with the evidence missed and new evidence which has arisen since.

I find the innuendo and libel which sometimes arises as a result of amateur misunderstanding and failure to think of context very disturbing indeed ... but most of all it is the accompanying unpleasantness and unkindness ... of which I have discovered Mark Saunokonoko's twitter feed is rife ... which causes me to despair of my fellow human beings.
not only is his twitter feed rife with libel and innuendo...he refuses to allow those who disagree with him to tweet on his timeline and has removed tweets from anyone who has dared to question his opinions
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 17, 2019, 12:13:17 PM
LOL...One of the explanations is that the stateemnts were taken in such a way that we cannot guarantee their accuracy...that is an absolute fact...we have Rebelo suggesting it...we have Colin Sutton suggesting it ...and we have kate stating it as fact....your refusal to aknowledge the possibility gives you no credibility...imo

If the statements weren't correct the only people to blame are the witnesses who signed them. The suggestion that Gerry McCann listened to his statement being read back to him and failed to notice that it said he entered by the main door using his key is, imo, ridiculous. Therefore I disagree with you and see no reason to suppose that he said something else.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 17, 2019, 12:16:16 PM
not only is his twitter feed rife with libel and innuendo...he refuses to allow those who disagree with him to tweet on his timeline and has removed tweets from anyone who has dared to question his opinions

Therefore he is acting as a propagandist for his rather limited point of view and in light of what Sil has to say ... for the benefit of none but himself.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 17, 2019, 12:17:59 PM
Therefore he is acting as a propagandist for his rather limited point of view and in light of what Sil has to say ... for the benefit of none but himself.

How else does one put luxuries like bread on the table.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 17, 2019, 12:35:36 PM
How else does one put luxuries like bread on the table.

I think it provides a good platform for his podcasts with links being readily available to bump up the hits and thus the revenue ... which is fine by me if people wish to encourage that.

Saunokonoko is just the latest in a long line of whom I imagine sitting forgotten at home thinking ... "A podcast! minimal time ... minimal effort ... a captive audience ... why didn't I ...  ...  ...  ...  ..."
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 17, 2019, 12:49:22 PM
not only is his twitter feed rife with libel and innuendo...he refuses to allow those who disagree with him to tweet on his timeline and has removed tweets from anyone who has dared to question his opinions
And how do you know this to be true? 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 17, 2019, 01:00:00 PM
If the statements weren't correct the only people to blame are the witnesses who signed them. The suggestion that Gerry McCann listened to his statement being read back to him and failed to notice that it said he entered by the main door using his key is, imo, ridiculous. Therefore I disagree with you and see no reason to suppose that he said something else.

You don't know what was read back to him... There is no record.... The blame lies with the PJ using a thirld world method of recording statements IMO that would not be acceptable to the UK police
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 17, 2019, 01:10:22 PM
You don't know what was read back to him... There is no record.... The blame lies with the PJ using a thirld world method of recording statements IMO that would not be acceptable to the UK police
Does that mean we can't trust any statements in the case unless they were recorded in Portuguese from a Portuguese speaking witness?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 17, 2019, 01:24:39 PM
Does that mean we can't trust any statements in the case unless they were recorded in Portuguese from a Portuguese speaking witness?

it means all statements taken and translated may contain...and almost certainly do contain...mistakes..and its about time sceptics woke up to that fact...imo

I beleive theres one by a nannny which showed she walked to Lagos and back in 30 mins...obviously a translation error
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 17, 2019, 01:26:13 PM
And how do you know this to be true?

if you look at his tweets and replies you will see they all supportive,....they were not 2 weeks ago...all tweets taht question his conclusions have been removed...and no new ones made...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 17, 2019, 01:31:00 PM
Does that mean we can't trust any statements in the case unless they were recorded in Portuguese from a Portuguese speaking witness?

Inconsistencies in the statements given by the McCanns and the group of friends who were dining with them at the time of Madeleine's disappearance may have been caused by errors in translation, it emerged today.
Portuguese detectives investigating the case of the missing four-year-old have admitted that they are reassessing the original witness statements to look for inaccuracies in their translation

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1569143/Madeleine-McCann-Possible-translation-errors.html

The admission came as police undertake a thorough review of the case under the new head of the inquiry, Portugal's second most senior policeman Paulo Rebelo, 45.


how many times do I need to post the same cites
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 17, 2019, 01:33:31 PM
If the statements weren't correct the only people to blame are the witnesses who signed them. The suggestion that Gerry McCann listened to his statement being read back to him and failed to notice that it said he entered by the main door using his key is, imo, ridiculous. Therefore I disagree with you and see no reason to suppose that he said something else.

You must take into account the mental state these people were in.    It is hardly surprising that there was confusion.  If there was a sinister reason as to why Gerry said what he said,  then you would think that he and Kate would have got their stories right wouldn't you?   After all they had all night to concoct them.  IMO
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 17, 2019, 01:36:46 PM
it means all statements taken and translated may contain...and almost certainly do contain...mistakes..and its about time sceptics woke up to that fact...imo

I beleive theres one by a nannny which showed she walked to Lagos and back in 30 mins...obviously a translation error

Some sadly just jump on these mistakes to point the finger at the McCann's branding them liars, when there is a perfectly innocent reason for the mistakes.  IMO
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 17, 2019, 01:40:03 PM
Some sadly just jump on these mistakes to point the finger at the McCann's branding them liars, when there is a perfectly innocent reason for the mistakes.  IMO

the problem for the sceptics is the inconsitencies are their main evidence against the mccanns ...they cannot bear to accept there amy be an innocent explanation
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 17, 2019, 01:42:24 PM
Inconsistencies in the statements given by the McCanns and the group of friends who were dining with them at the time of Madeleine's disappearance may have been caused by errors in translation, it emerged today.
Portuguese detectives investigating the case of the missing four-year-old have admitted that they are reassessing the original witness statements to look for inaccuracies in their translation

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1569143/Madeleine-McCann-Possible-translation-errors.html

The admission came as police undertake a thorough review of the case under the new head of the inquiry, Portugal's second most senior policeman Paulo Rebelo, 45.


how many times do I need to post the same cites

OK would they have left those errors in the statements.


it means all statements taken and translated may contain...and almost certainly do contain...mistakes..and its about time sceptics woke up to that fact...imo

I beleive theres one by a nannny which showed she walked to Lagos and back in 30 mins...obviously a translation error
But then is it true we can't tell which part is a mistake. Which then implies every part of a statement is potentially affected by translation errors.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 17, 2019, 01:44:57 PM
OK would they have left those errors in the statements.

But then is it true we can't tell which part is a mistake. Which then implies every part of a statement is potentially affected by translation errors.

the mccanns made new statements to Control risks which were given to the police...

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 17, 2019, 01:45:06 PM
Gerry being Smithman does not fit with the evidence given by the witnesses at the time.

His statement of Kate returning to the table at around 22:15 does not fit with anyone else. Gerry was still at the table at 22:15 - I wonder why LOL.

FP said Kate left as early as 21:45. Matt 21:50. Kate was not gone long on her check according to the witnesses but according to Gerry she was gone for 10 minutes then reveals a much later time that does not fit!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 17, 2019, 01:46:06 PM
I find it illuminating that Saunokonoko didn’t use modern communication methods to actually communicate one to one with Martin Grime and allow his voice to be heard in his podcast.

Paraphrasing what Martin Grime said in an email is hardly state of the art is it?  For all we know Saunokonoko could have been receiving a brush off and was told to read the files.  Which he obviously did while putting his own spin on it as so many do.

It really doesn’t alter the fact that things have moved on way beyond the dogs and way beyond 2007 when the forensics didn’t match the expectation the PJ had of the dogs which were thus an irrelevance then and even more of an irrelevance today.

Scotland Yard and the Judicial police are presently following evidence which I don’t think will owe much if anything to Eddie and Keela because nothing except sceptic hopes and dreams for great disaster to befall Madeleine's family has stood still for the past twelve years.

I've had a quick glance at Saunokonoko's twitter feed and boy oh boy plus c'est la męme chose still rules  *&^^&

Are you accusing Saunokonoko of lying Brietta because that is clearly libel.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 17, 2019, 02:01:36 PM
I think its i disgrace a journalist should emply such censorship to his twitter feed....he wants the freedom of speech but wishes to deny it to those who disagree with him
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 17, 2019, 02:03:09 PM
Therefore he is acting as a propagandist for his rather limited point of view and in light of what Sil has to say ... for the benefit of none but himself.

I guess I need to post a screen capture of the places across the world where my blog has been viewed.

I put out information.  My 'style' is to take a small topic, and publish what I have found.  It is then entirely over to readers to decide what is correct and what is not.

Let me give you a small example of what I mean by this.

I have just been reading a lengthy article on CMOMM by Peter MacLeod about which journalist first turned up on the site of 5A when the news broke about Madeleine's disappearance.

Petermac made at least 3 mistakes.  Twice he writes that the McCann's went from 5A to 5H (the Paynes) and then to 5G.  That was Pamela Fenn's home and they did not go there.  They went to 4G, and 4G has a tale of its own.

I don't see Mr MacLeod's errors as significant or malicious.

The central point proposed by Mr MacLeod was that a Spanish free newspaper called The Olive Press claimed to have had a staff member at 5A first, plus numerous other claims.  All of them false.

Broadly speaking, I agree with Mr MacLeod's assertions.

Mark Saunokonoko is entitled to make money from his job.  That is how jobs work.

A little while back, I researched podcast technology, to see if I could add some to my blog.  It turned out to be a lot more difficult than I thought.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 17, 2019, 02:07:30 PM
I guess I need to post a screen capture of the places across the world where my blog has been viewed.

I put out information.  My 'style' is to take a small topic, and publish what I have found.  It is then entirely over to readers to decide what is correct and what is not.

Let me give you a small example of what I mean by this.

I have just been reading a lengthy article on CMOMM by Peter MacLeod about which journalist first turned up on the site of 5A when the news broke about Madeleine's disappearance.

Petermac made at least 3 mistakes.  Twice he writes that the McCann's went from 5A to 5H (the Paynes) and then to 5G.  That was Pamela Fenn's home and they did not go there.  They went to 4G, and 4G has a tale of its own.

I don't see Mr MacLeod's errors as significant or malicious.

The central point proposed by Mr MacLeod was that a Spanish free newspaper called The Olive Press claimed to have had a staff member at 5A first, plus numerous other claims.  All of them false.

Broadly speaking, I agree with Mr MacLeod's assertions.

Mark Saunokonoko is entitled to make money from his job.  That is how jobs work.

A little while back, I researched podcast technology, to see if I could add some to my blog.  It turned out to be a lot more difficult than I thought.

macleod gets quiye a few imprtant things wrong...but then again...police arent always the brightest
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 17, 2019, 02:11:28 PM
You don't know what was read back to him... There is no record.... The blame lies with the PJ using a thirld world method of recording statements IMO that would not be acceptable to the UK police

A statement recorded in Portugal has to apply to the law applicable in Portugal, not to the UK police.

I've been through the process twice in Madrid and once in the UK.

All 3 were hand written.

It's the differences that are interesting.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 17, 2019, 02:35:50 PM
A statement recorded in Portugal has to apply to the law applicable in Portugal, not to the UK police.

I've been through the process twice in Madrid and once in the UK.

All 3 were hand written.

It's the differences that are interesting.
what you are saying is obvious....Im saying that the portuguese system would not be acceptable in the UK..

Ive just been through one in the uk...its typed....so in madrid was it handwritten in english...or did you sign a spanish statement
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 17, 2019, 02:46:59 PM
what you are saying is obvious....Im saying that the portuguese system would not be acceptable in the UK..

Ive just been through one in the uk...its typed....so in madrid was it handwritten in english...or did you sign a spanish statement

All 3 were handwritten.

We signed all 3.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 17, 2019, 03:03:16 PM
All 3 were handwritten.

We signed all 3.

in what language
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 17, 2019, 03:13:59 PM
in what language

2 in Spanish, because we both speak Spanish.  That's the language Spain uses for its statements.

You are heading for a huge elephant trap.  Might be time to turn around, just a thought.

The incident in English was handwritten in English, because English is the language used in the English legal system.

It just doesn't get simpler.

What was your report taken in?  Welsh?  Greek?  Klingon?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 17, 2019, 03:20:05 PM
Are you accusing Saunokonoko of lying Brietta because that is clearly libel.

Please desist ... this form of unjustified personal attack is tiresome and terribly threadbare ... if you are of the opinion I have libelled anyone in any of my posts please feel free to report it in the usual manner ... in the interim do not presume to put words into my mouth which you know are unfounded.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 17, 2019, 03:22:37 PM
2 in Spanish, because we both speak Spanish.  That's the language Spain uses for its statements.

You are heading for a huge elephant trap.  Might be time to turn around, just a thought.

The incident in English was handwritten in English, because English is the language used in the English legal system.

It just doesn't get simpler.

What was your report taken in?  Welsh?  Greek?  Klingon?

It was a simple question im surprised..not...it took you so long to answer....then you come up with a stupid comment...no surprise...

its unnacceptable to ask someone to sign a statement in a foreign language they dont understand...you speak spanish so you were able to understand what you were asked to sign...the mccanns did not
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 17, 2019, 03:25:43 PM
Please desist ... this form of unjustified personal attack is tiresome and terribly threadbare ... if you are of the opinion I have libelled anyone in any of my posts please feel free to report it in the usual manner ... in the interim do not presume to put words into my mouth which you know are unfounded.

You put words into your own mouth Brietta, I don’t have to do you that service. You said MS had misrepresented what Grime had written, that is libel. It is not a personal attack, it is simply repeating what you posted. If I by some chance have misrepresented what you posted please clarify the issue and an apology with be forthcoming.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 17, 2019, 03:31:22 PM
I find the continual reference to money highly bemusing.

When I got flame-roasted for my Luz Tours, the 2 reporters were at least accurate in saying that I don't charge for them.  But I got flame-roasted anyway.

A while back I was looking up something else, and I came across a YouTube clip of Loose Women.  It must have been from when the Luz Tours story broke, because they discussed it on TV briefly.  After condemning the Tours, the panel leader pointed out that I didn't charge for them.  According to panelist Babs Windsor, that made my 'offence' even worse.

I can see no issue with people making money from the case.  It takes a lot of time an effort to write a book.  I only know of one free one.  Then there's the reporters, making money by selling copy, or broadcasts.  Plus of course the photographers and video crew.  And all the police who have worked on it as part of their job.

And I would assume that Babs Windsor was paid for her appearance on Loose Women.  Should she have given part of her money to charity?  Ditto the other panelists, the interview leader and the entire production crew?

Even the McCanns had made money from the event.

So kindly think of all that the next time you consider moralising about making money from the disappearance.

Mark Saunokonoko is no different in that respect to most of the others in the spotlight who have done exactly the same.
Thanks for the lecture but I will say what I like when I like.  Many people have profited either financially or by having their profiles raised or their egos massaged by their association with this case.  I don’t count the parents in this as I don’t believe their motivation was person fame and fortune.  All IMO, which I believe I am entitled to express on this forum am I not?  Freedom of speech and all that, something you claim to value so highly.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 17, 2019, 03:38:00 PM
His statement of Kate returning to the table at around 22:15 does not fit with anyone else. Gerry was still at the table at 22:15 - I wonder why LOL.

FP said Kate left as early as 21:45. Matt 21:50. Kate was not gone long on her check according to the witnesses but according to Gerry she was gone for 10 minutes then reveals a much later time that does not fit!
So the only person contradicting his alibis is the man himself.  LOL.  And he would do this because....?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 17, 2019, 03:44:10 PM
2 in Spanish, because we both speak Spanish.  That's the language Spain uses for its statements.

You are heading for a huge elephant trap.  Might be time to turn around, just a thought.

The incident in English was handwritten in English, because English is the language used in the English legal system.

It just doesn't get simpler.

What was your report taken in?  Welsh?  Greek?  Klingon?

does spain use spanish for its statements for witnesses that do not speak spanish...do you know the answer...or have you just fell into the trap
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 17, 2019, 03:50:10 PM
It was a simple question im surprised..not...it took you so long to answer....then you come up with a stupid comment...no surprise...

its unnacceptable to ask someone to sign a statement in a foreign language they dont understand...you speak spanish so you were able to understand what you were asked to sign...the mccanns did not

Talk about flogging a dead horse.

We gave 2 statements in Madrid, which were both written down in Spanish, for the ultra-simple reason that in Spain they speak Spanish.

These were not recorded on DVD.

The statement in England was in English, for the ultra-simple reason that in England the main language is English.

It was not recorded, just written down.

You haven't hit the elephant trap yet, but if you want to continue ...  so be it!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 17, 2019, 03:59:20 PM
We don't have a reliable account of either of Gerrys statements so it's impossible to draw any real conclusions... MS has a poor understanding of the case so I don't take a lot of notice of his conclusions which are flawed IMO..

Nonsense. The statements are extremely reliable. The problem is that you just don't like the content.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 17, 2019, 03:59:45 PM
You put words into your own mouth Brietta, I don’t have to do you that service. You said MS had misrepresented what Grime had written, that is libel. It is not a personal attack, it is simply repeating what you posted. If I by some chance have misrepresented what you posted please clarify the issue and an apology with be forthcoming.

This is the last occasion on which I will revisit a post which I have made previously to prove that you have misrepresented what I have posted.
On this occasion you have accused me of libelling Saunokonoko.

This is the post to which you referred ...
I find it illuminating that Saunokonoko didn’t use modern communication methods to actually communicate one to one with Martin Grime and allow his voice to be heard in his podcast.

Paraphrasing what Martin Grime said in an email is hardly state of the art is it?  For all we know Saunokonoko could have been receiving a brush off and was told to read the files.  Which he obviously did while putting his own spin on it as so many do.

It really doesn’t alter the fact that things have moved on way beyond the dogs and way beyond 2007 when the forensics didn’t match the expectation the PJ had of the dogs which were thus an irrelevance then and even more of an irrelevance today.

Scotland Yard and the Judicial police are presently following evidence which I don’t think will owe much if anything to Eddie and Keela because nothing except sceptic hopes and dreams for great disaster to befall Madeleine's family has stood still for the past twelve years.

I've had a quick glance at Saunokonoko's twitter feed and boy oh boy plus c'est la męme chose still rules  *&^^&
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10605.msg529008#msg529008


Your accusations are as always tiresome and pointless and are a form of harassment ... please desist and as I have already advised ... if you have a problem with future posts, use the "report" facility..
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 17, 2019, 04:03:42 PM
macleod gets quiye a few imprtant things wrong...but then again...police arent always the brightest
Don't be too hard on him ... he was after all the first sceptic to agree the shutter on apartment 5A could be raised from outside and even demonstrated it on camera.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 17, 2019, 04:04:16 PM
Nonsense. The statements are extremely reliable. The problem is that you just don't like the content.
no they are not...as suggested by Rebelo,,....of the portuguese PJ
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 17, 2019, 04:07:19 PM
Talk about flogging a dead horse.

We gave 2 statements in Madrid, which were both written down in Spanish, for the ultra-simple reason that in Spain they speak Spanish.

These were not recorded on DVD.

The statement in England was in English, for the ultra-simple reason that in England the main language is English.

It was not recorded, just written down.

You haven't hit the elephant trap yet, but if you want to continue ...  so be it!

I can see why you are confused now...when they wrote it down...they recorded what you said....when I say recorded im using in its wider sense...you are assuning I mean audio or video recording...im not....

in the Uk the language the statement is recorded in...depends on the nationality of the witness.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 17, 2019, 04:08:28 PM
This is the last occasion on which I will revisit a post which I have made previously to prove that you have misrepresented what I have posted.
On this occasion you have accused me of libelling Saunokonoko.

This is the post to which you referred ...
I find it illuminating that Saunokonoko didn’t use modern communication methods to actually communicate one to one with Martin Grime and allow his voice to be heard in his podcast.

Paraphrasing what Martin Grime said in an email is hardly state of the art is it?  For all we know Saunokonoko could have been receiving a brush off and was told to read the files.  Which he obviously did while putting his own spin on it as so many do.

It really doesn’t alter the fact that things have moved on way beyond the dogs and way beyond 2007 when the forensics didn’t match the expectation the PJ had of the dogs which were thus an irrelevance then and even more of an irrelevance today.

Scotland Yard and the Judicial police are presently following evidence which I don’t think will owe much if anything to Eddie and Keela because nothing except sceptic hopes and dreams for great disaster to befall Madeleine's family has stood still for the past twelve years.

I've had a quick glance at Saunokonoko's twitter feed and boy oh boy plus c'est la męme chose still rules  *&^^&
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10605.msg529008#msg529008


Your accusations are as always tiresome and pointless and are a form of harassment ... please desist and as I have already advised ... if you have a problem with future posts, use the "report" facility..

Your constant denial of what is patently obvious to anyone with basic comprehension skills is also becoming tiresome as is your outrage when this is pointed out to you.

You posted “Paraphrasing what Martin Grime said in an email is hardly state of the art is it?  For all we know Saunokonoko could have been receiving a brush off and was told to read the files.  Which he obviously did while putting his own spin on it as so many do“

Could you explain if you didn’t mean what I took it to mean what you actually did mean ?

Like the little boy who was caught with his hand in the cookie jar it is not enough to simply deny it happened but to explain why it wasn’t so. So far you have failed to do this.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 17, 2019, 04:19:47 PM
Your constant denial of what is patently obvious to anyone with basic comprehension skills is also becoming tiresome as is your outrage when this is pointed out to you.

You posted “Paraphrasing what Martin Grime said in an email is hardly state of the art is it?  For all we know Saunokonoko could have been receiving a brush off and was told to read the files.  Which he obviously did while putting his own spin on it as so many do“

Could you explain if you didn’t mean what I took it to mean what you actually did mean ?

Like the little boy who was caught with his hand in the cookie jar it is not enough to simply deny it happened but to explain why it wasn’t so. So far you have failed to do this.
Nothing libellous in that.  What’s your problem girlfriend?  Perhaps you’d like to revisit some of the comments you have made about Clarence Mitchell, Summers and Swan, Kate McCann or any journo who has ever covered the case sympathetically towards the McCanns and see if any of them accuse accusations of spin by yourself?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 17, 2019, 04:23:42 PM
All 3 were handwritten.

We signed all 3.

I take it you were not dealing with a life changing incident such as your daughter disappearing from her bed? 

I think the circumstances both witnesses and the police faced in Praia da Luz merited a more professional approach than was given.
The fact that one of the first issues that Rebelo had to deal with was clearing up the mess he inherited from Amaral I think goes to prove that by Portuguese standards the initial task of record keeping just wasn't up to scratch.

How could anyone have confidence in a system such as that?

Snip
Paulo Rebelo, the new police chief leading the Madeleine McCann investigation, is furious at how it was left in disarray by his predecessor.
According to reports, officers have spent the past fortnight processing information left lying around on scraps of paper and following leads ignored by police working under Chief Inspector Goncalo Amaral.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-488802/Madeleine-New-police-chiefs-fury-mess-inherited-predecessor.html
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 17, 2019, 04:32:40 PM
All 3 were handwritten.

We signed all 3.

and as you speak spanish and english you understood all 3
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 17, 2019, 04:35:52 PM
I take it you were not dealing with a life changing incident such as your daughter disappearing from her bed? 

I think the circumstances both witnesses and the police faced in Praia da Luz merited a more professional approach than was given.
The fact that one of the first issues that Rebelo had to deal with was clearing up the mess he inherited from Amaral I think goes to prove that by Portuguese standards the initial task of record keeping just wasn't up to scratch.

How could anyone have confidence in a system such as that?

Snip
Paulo Rebelo, the new police chief leading the Madeleine McCann investigation, is furious at how it was left in disarray by his predecessor.
According to reports, officers have spent the past fortnight processing information left lying around on scraps of paper and following leads ignored by police working under Chief Inspector Goncalo Amaral.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-488802/Madeleine-New-police-chiefs-fury-mess-inherited-predecessor.html

An alleged report from an anonymous source, leaking information from the investigation, something I believe you may have previously criticised.

How extraordinary!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 17, 2019, 04:52:00 PM
I can see why you are confused now...when they wrote it down...they recorded what you said....when I say recorded im using in its wider sense...you are assuning I mean audio or video recording...im not....

in the Uk the language the statement is recorded in...depends on the nationality of the witness.

No.  I was there.  You were not.

I'm not assuming you meant audio or video recording, though you have banged on about such since I joined the forum.

Do you think that UK police record a statement from someone who speaks Swahili in Swahili?  Or Chinese in Chinese?

Time to get up to date with 2019.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 17, 2019, 04:56:54 PM
No.  I was there.  You were not.

I'm not assuming you meant audio or video recording, though you have banged on about such since I joined the forum.

Do you think that UK police record a statement from someone who speaks Swahili in Swahili?  Or Chinese in Chinese?

Time to get up to date with 2019.
ive never banged on about such... but as you get so much wrong we dont need a cite....
yes...if a witness speaks swahili...that satement will be written down...recorded...in swahili...ditto chinese..the witness signs teh statement in the language they understand

those statements will then be translated into english and both accounts kept on record....

cites have been provided many times
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 17, 2019, 05:08:00 PM
ive never banged on about such... but as you get so much wrong we dont need a cite....
yes...if a witness speaks swahili...that satement will be written down...recorded...in swahili...ditto chinese..the witness signs teh statement in the language they understand

those statements will then be translated into english and both accounts kept on record....

cites have been provided many times

Obviously you are not up to date in current UK procedure.

Thankfully, it matters not a jot, as the incident occurred in ........ where was it?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 17, 2019, 05:13:25 PM
Obviously you are not up to date in current UK procedure.

Thankfully, it matters not a jot, as the incident occurred in ........ where was it?
current UK procedure is exactly as Ive described it...its very easy to show you dont have aclue what you are talking about
Im absolutely up to date..its you who is ignorant...its been discussed many times here...Im surprised you dont remember..Ill provide  a cite later to show how out of touch you are

what I can also tell you is taht none of the witness stateemnts can be used against the mccanns ....so it doesnt raelly matter...anything else you need to know...

HHJ Kaye QC in Re Phoneer [2002] 2 BCLC 241 said, "if the witness does not speak English, the witness statement will be in that person's own language, which must then be translated and the translation filed and verified in accordance with paragraph 23 [of PD 32]". This procedure was supported by HHJ Gore QC in the case of Hussain v Naqui (2014) when the claimant was ordered to serve fresh witness evidence "written in a language that they can understand".

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 17, 2019, 05:21:48 PM
Obviously you are not up to date in current UK procedure.

Thankfully, it matters not a jot, as the incident occurred in ........ where was it?
Kindly outline current UK procedure for us then.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 17, 2019, 05:28:42 PM
current UK procedure is exactly as Ive described it...its very easy to show you dont have aclue what you are talking about
Im absolutely up to date..its you who is ignorant...its been discussed many times here...Im surprised you dont remember..Ill provide  a cite later to show how out of touch you are

what I can also tell you is taht none of the witness stateemnts can be used against the mccanns ....so it doesnt raelly matter...anything else you need to know...


Try watching some TV.  You'll see how reality works.

By the way, don't try sticking a hidden response in a message to me again.  Only a donkey does that.

PS.  Not the 'I'll supply a cite later" ploy either.  It is as worn out as "I gave a cite 2 weeks ago".

Please change the record.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 17, 2019, 05:34:37 PM
Try watching some TV.  You'll see how reality works.

By the way, don't try sticking a hidden response in a message to me again.  Only a donkey does that.

PS.  Not the 'I'll supply a cite later" ploy either.  It is as worn out as "I gave a cite 2 weeks ago".

Please change the record.
try watching some tv....are you serious.......


Im going out now...ive supplied countless cites before and will again alter...

as for the donkey...theres only one part of me taht has any similrity...and lets say... Ive never had any complaints
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 17, 2019, 05:37:51 PM
try watching some tv....are you serious.......


Im going out now...ive supplied countless cites before and will again alter...

as for the donkey...theres only one part of me taht has any similrity...and lets say... Ive never had any complaints
@)(++(*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 17, 2019, 05:38:58 PM
Try watching some TV.  You'll see how reality works.

By the way, don't try sticking a hidden response in a message to me again.  Only a donkey does that.

PS.  Not the 'I'll supply a cite later" ploy either.  It is as worn out as "I gave a cite 2 weeks ago".

Please change the record.
What TV shows do you recommend?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 17, 2019, 05:42:53 PM
What TV shows do you recommend?

How about one of the ones that show 'live' footage of interviews in the UK?  Take your pick!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 17, 2019, 05:44:34 PM
Try watching some TV.  You'll see how reality works.

By the way, don't try sticking a hidden response in a message to me again.  Only a donkey does that.

PS.  Not the 'I'll supply a cite later" ploy either.  It is as worn out as "I gave a cite 2 weeks ago".

Please change the record.

Any witness statement taken from a person who has difficulty in speaking or understanding English should be recorded in the foreign language and signed by the witness.  It should include the declaration prescribed in Section 9(2)(b) Criminal Justice Act 1967.   Witness statements for the purpose of Section 5A(3)(a) and 5B of the Magistrates’ Court Act 1980, must be the statement of the witness and not a translation of what was said by the interpreter – R v Raynor, Times Law Reports, 19 September 2000.


www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/interpreters



you obviously havent got a clue
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 17, 2019, 05:45:32 PM
How about one of the ones that show 'live' footage of interviews in the UK?  Take your pick!

you obviously havent learnt anything from them...my cites on the post above
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 17, 2019, 05:49:14 PM
How about one of the ones that show 'live' footage of interviews in the UK?  Take your pick!
And they show foreigners giving statements and the procedures that are adopted while recording them do they?   Please can you give me just one example, ta.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 17, 2019, 05:51:51 PM
Inconsistencies in the statements given by the McCanns and the group of friends who were dining with them at the time of Madeleine's disappearance may have been caused by errors in translation, it emerged today.
Portuguese detectives investigating the case of the missing four-year-old have admitted that they are reassessing the original witness statements to look for inaccuracies in their translation

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1569143/Madeleine-McCann-Possible-translation-errors.html

The admission came as police undertake a thorough review of the case under the new head of the inquiry, Portugal's second most senior policeman Paulo Rebelo, 45.


how many times do I need to post the same cites

Why would Portuguese detectives say they were doing something which wasn't possible? We can check the amateur translations  on the internet because we can see the originals. The PJ couldn't do that with the statements because there were no original documents.

It seems whoever the source of this srory was forgot or didn't know that every non Portuguese  witness would have had to have been reinterviewed if the PJ wanted to check the accuracy of their statements.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 17, 2019, 05:55:47 PM
Why would Portuguese detectives say they were doing something which wasn't possible? We can check the amateur translations  on the internet because we can see the originals. The PJ couldn't do that with the statements because there were no original documents.

It seems whoever the source of this srory was forgot or didn't know that every non Portuguese  witness would have had to have been reinterviewed if the PJ wanted to check the accuracy of their statements.

it was quite possible to check the mccanns and their friends statements
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 17, 2019, 06:04:52 PM
it was quite possible to check the mccanns and their friends statements

How?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 17, 2019, 06:10:42 PM
I thought you were off out? (having made an hilarious knob gag, on a forum about a missing child)
Oh my, now I never had you down as a righteous sanctimonious type...  &%%6
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 17, 2019, 06:32:29 PM
And they show foreigners giving statements and the procedures that are adopted while recording them do they?   Please can you give me just one example, ta.

They put a mobile phone on speakerphone with an appropriate translator on the other end.

The English officer speaks in English.  The translator on the phone translates into Arabic.   The translator translates the response into English.

Guess which language the English police officer writes down the answer in?  Just as a clue, it's not Arabic.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 17, 2019, 06:33:32 PM
They put a mobile phone on speakerphone with an appropriate translator on the other end.

The English officer speaks in English.  The translator on the phone translates into Arabic.   The translator translates the response into English.

Guess which language the English police officer writes down the answer in?  Just as a clue, it's not Arabic.
What programme was that on?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 17, 2019, 06:52:48 PM
They put a mobile phone on speakerphone with an appropriate translator on the other end.

The English officer speaks in English.  The translator on the phone translates into Arabic.   The translator translates the response into English.

Guess which language the English police officer writes down the answer in?  Just as a clue, it's not Arabic.

That's when they are interviewing... Not taking statements... I've quoted the govt guidelines for statements... You should read them
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 17, 2019, 07:08:14 PM
Here’s another cite from a British Police Force guidelines

1.2.7 Witness Statements
The declaration at the top of the MG11, must be written out by the interpreter in the relevant language, signed by the person making the statement (not the interpreter) and the signature witnessed. The person witnessing the signature will normally be the interpreter.
The officer will then gather the witness’ evidence in the usual manner by questioning the witness through the interpreter. The interpreter should then write down the statement on an MG11, in the witness’s own language, in the witnesses own words as guided by the officer. This record is called ‘the original statement’. The role of the officer is to ensure that the statement is factually and evidentially correct.
Once the witness statement is recorded in the other language, the interpreter will make an English translation of that statement on another form MG11. This translation is an exhibit. The interpreter must then make another witness statement in which they explain how they were employed to write down the statement and produce the English translation as an exhibit.

Is this what happened in Portugal in 2007?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 17, 2019, 07:10:18 PM
How?

Ask them... But the mccanns provided new statements
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 17, 2019, 07:12:51 PM
What programme was that on?

Many.

Take your pick.

Force Essex is but one.

Go and fill your boots!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 17, 2019, 07:15:29 PM
Many.

Take your pick.

Force Essex is but one.

Go and fill your boots!

You obviously  haven't understood  what you watched... Questioning is carried out in the way you describe but witness statements are not..... Witness statements  are recorded in the witnesses own language... Cites have been provided

Time to admit your mistake
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 17, 2019, 07:21:22 PM
Many.

Take your pick.

Force Essex is but one.

Go and fill your boots!
So do youthink UK police forces blatantly disregard the guidelines as set down in the cites provided?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 17, 2019, 07:30:18 PM
Ask them... But the mccanns provided new statements

Did the PJ ask them? Where are these new statements?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 17, 2019, 08:23:39 PM
Did the PJ ask them? Where are these new statements?

It's in Kate's book which you have read
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 17, 2019, 09:34:15 PM
It's in Kate's book which you have read

That they were asked anout their statements or that they were asked to do new ones?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 17, 2019, 09:40:27 PM
That they were asked anout their statements or that they were asked to do new ones?

if youve forgotten best read it again
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 17, 2019, 09:43:43 PM
the mccanns made new statements to Control risks which were given to the police...
So where did they end up?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 17, 2019, 09:46:02 PM
Are you accusing Saunokonoko of lying Brietta because that is clearly libel.
No she isn't.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 17, 2019, 09:49:50 PM
So where did they end up?

I believe  they were given to the pj
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 17, 2019, 10:00:20 PM
Just had a listen to podcast #10 where Mark Saunokonoko introduces comments by former Nottinghamshire police superintendent Peter McLeod in relation to the open window and shutter.  He claimed that the shutter would have been bashing down on the head of anyone trying to climb into the children's bedroom. He also claimed that an intruder would have to have put a piece of wood in or something.

Yet again we have uniformed professionals offering opinions which are completely wrong. Everyone who has experienced shutters of this type on the continent know that all anyone has to do in order to raise the shutter completely is to reach in and pull the shutter strap completely down until the shutter raises fully and locks.

I wish these idiots would keep their misinformed comments to themselves.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 17, 2019, 10:16:13 PM
You obviously  haven't understood  what you watched... Questioning is carried out in the way you describe but witness statements are not..... Witness statements  are recorded in the witnesses own language... Cites have been provided

Time to admit your mistake

What cites?

You reckon regional regional police forces record statements in Arabic, Polish and Chinese in those languages?

 (&^&
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 17, 2019, 10:36:39 PM
What cites?

You reckon regional regional police forces record statements in Arabic, Polish and Chinese in those languages?

 (&^&
Why wouldn’t they?  You’ve read the cites.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 17, 2019, 10:36:58 PM
What cites?

You reckon regional regional police forces record statements in Arabic, Polish and Chinese in those languages?

 (&^&

Post 2867...it's in English so you won't need a translator..
Witness statements recorded in the witnesses own language...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 17, 2019, 10:39:12 PM
The final podcast is just a rehash of everything we already know but one interesting point keeps coming to the surface and that is that  information relating to the case was being carefully sifted by Leicestershire Police. One example which again we all know about was the withheld Gaspar statements which only found their way to the Portuguese police AFTER Gonçalo Amaral had been removed from the investigation. One can only but speculate as to what the consequences would have been had Amaral received these statements before being dismissed.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 17, 2019, 10:42:24 PM
The final podcast is just a rehash of everything we already know but one interesting point keeps coming to the surface and that is that  information relating to the case was being carefully sifted by Leicestershire Police. One example which again we all know about was the withheld Gaspar statements which only found their way to the Portuguese police AFTER Gonçalo Amaral had been removed from the investigation. One can only but speculate as to what the consequences would have been had Amaral received these statements before being dismissed.
He would have had an extra chapter for his very slender book.  And perhaps another lawsuit to contend with.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 18, 2019, 06:34:02 AM
I believe  they were given to the pj

You seem to believe a lot of things without any evidence to support them. There's no evidence that the PJ took any steps in Octobvr 2007 to check whether any of the orignal statements had been interpreted correctly  It was just a journalistic rumour imo.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 18, 2019, 06:50:39 AM
The final podcast is just a rehash of everything we already know but one interesting point keeps coming to the surface and that is that  information relating to the case was being carefully sifted by Leicestershire Police. One example which again we all know about was the withheld Gaspar statements which only found their way to the Portuguese police AFTER Gonçalo Amaral had been removed from the investigation. One can only but speculate as to what the consequences would have been had Amaral received these statements before being dismissed.

He mentioned police statements being suppressed but not which. All I know is that the PJ submitted the questions to be put to the FLO's and Stuart Prior changed them. Obviously we don't know what the UK police had withdrawn from the files before they were released. The UK had no intention of being as open and transparent as the PJ about what had been done.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 18, 2019, 07:04:36 AM
The final podcast is just a rehash of everything we already know but one interesting point keeps coming to the surface and that is that  information relating to the case was being carefully sifted by Leicestershire Police. One example which again we all know about was the withheld Gaspar statements which only found their way to the Portuguese police AFTER Gonçalo Amaral had been removed from the investigation. One can only but speculate as to what the consequences would have been had Amaral received these statements before being dismissed.

I am not convinced that Amaral didn't receive The Gaspar Statements much sooner than has been said, and were lurking somewhere in the mess he left..  They totally contradicted each other so wouldn't have been much use.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 18, 2019, 08:07:47 AM
You seem to believe a lot of things without any evidence to support them. There's no evidence that the PJ took any steps in Octobvr 2007 to check whether any of the orignal statements had been interpreted correctly  It was just a journalistic rumour imo.

I don't believe anything without evidence.. So you can cut out the as hom and sniping comments that are becoming a regular part  of your posts.  The srticle is evidence of mistakes in translation... Kates statement in her book is further evidence... What the PJ did about it I don't know and have made no claims.... Which shows how even though my posts, are in English you've managed to misunderstand them... It's obvious there will be mistakes in the, statements...we just don't know how many... That's why thr UK police would not use such a poor method of recording what was, said
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 18, 2019, 08:18:26 AM
Do sceptics believe, based on the evidence, that there is little or no likelihood of errors in translation having been made in the statements of any of the witnesses?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 18, 2019, 08:18:46 AM
He mentioned police statements being suppressed but not which. All I know is that the PJ submitted the questions to be put to the FLO's and Stuart Prior changed them. Obviously we don't know what the UK police had withdrawn from the files before they were released. The UK had no intention of being as open and transparent as the PJ about what had been done.

As I understand the UK police removed names of suspected or convicted paedophiles, from the, files and were complying  with UK law.. More UK police bashing from you... Simply because they support the innocence of the mccanns
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 18, 2019, 08:59:38 AM
Concerning to me, of all people, Katherina Gaspar had called the police to report her serious concerns about, it was the missing child's, father's best friend. The same guy that the file tells us went on to give the police in the UK two completely different versions of the last time he alleges he seen the missing child alive. No translation get out excuses for those two versions.
I wonder how many people on here have felt the need to call the police to report similar concerns about old friends. It's not behavior or concerns that the Monkey is familiar with, that's for sure, thank God. Let's hope the consequences of the Gaspar statements have resulted in Scotland Yard thoroughly investigating Ms Gaspar's concerns as a matter of urgency. The UK's track record of brushing aside and covering up serious concerns about young children is one we can all be ashamed of IMO.

There just been a protracted enquiry into abuse in high placesvthst has been found to be false... So I think your claim is, a little unfair..
The idea that gerry discussed abuse of his daughter openly is IMO.. Plain daft

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 18, 2019, 09:04:25 AM
Concerning to me, of all people, Katherina Gaspar had called the police to report her serious concerns about, it was the missing child's, father's best friend. The same guy that the file tells us went on to give the police in the UK two completely different versions of the last time he alleges he seen the missing child alive. No translation get out excuses for those two versions.
I wonder how many people on here have felt the need to call the police to report similar concerns about old friends. It's not behavior or concerns that the Monkey is familiar with, that's for sure, thank God. Let's hope the consequences of the Gaspar statements have resulted in Scotland Yard thoroughly investigating Ms Gaspar's concerns as a matter of urgency. The UK's track record of brushing aside and covering up serious concerns about young children is one we can all be ashamed of IMO.

If Scotland Yard have revisited Mrs Gaspar's Statement then they will also have revisited Mr. Gaspar's Statement, which totally contradicts his wife.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 18, 2019, 09:29:00 AM
I make no claims about Gerry or refer to any specific case, that's my first point. My second point.
The fact is, a woman who had been in the company of Gerry McCann and David Payne felt concerned enough to call the police to report her concerns about a man, who the files say has given the UK police two completely different versions of the last time he alleges seen the missing child alive. Those are facts. Ignoring people's concerns from about young children would be daft to ignore and not treat as serious IMO. I accept your views may differ on the importance of investigating concerns about child sexual abuse.

Unfair? Really? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esKnWAIgpLY
I don't think so!

Have you anything to say about Mr. Gaspar's Statement?  He was there as well you know.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 18, 2019, 09:31:57 AM
I make no claims about Gerry or refer to any specific case, that's my first point. My second point.
The fact is, a woman who had been in the company of Gerry McCann and David Payne felt concerned enough to call the police to report her concerns about a man, who the files say has given the UK police two completely different versions of the last time he alleges seen the missing child alive. Those are facts. Ignoring people's concerns from about young children would be daft to ignore and not treat as serious IMO. I accept your views may differ on the importance of investigating concerns about child sexual abuse.

Unfair? Really? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esKnWAIgpLY
I don't think so!

mccanns Stateemnts not accurate...we have no confirmation they are...you will always find an example to back up your claim...are you aware of teh casa pia case in portugal...im sure mrs gasapr got it wrong...her husband certainly thougt so...i can think of a raeson she amde the ckaim but you wouldnt accept it so I wont give it...ive said all along they could have been talking about breast feeding...it fits perfectly...sucking and nipples
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 18, 2019, 09:36:04 AM
I don't believe anything without evidence.. So you can cut out the as hom and sniping comments that are becoming a regular part  of your posts.  The srticle is evidence of mistakes in translation... Kates statement in her book is further evidence... What the PJ did about it I don't know and have made no claims.... Which shows how even though my posts, are in English you've managed to misunderstand them... It's obvious there will be mistakes in the, statements...we just don't know how many... That's why thr UK police would not use such a poor method of recording what was, said

You cited a story which alleged that the PJ were investigating whether there were mistakes by the interpreters. There's no evidence that the PJ were doing anything of the kind, so the story isn't corroberated

The statements given to CRG are a red herring imo because they don't have any cnnection to the story you cited. You have no evidence they were given to the PJ, so that's opinion. .

Kate McCann seems to be the only person who attempts to suggest there were translation problems and she gives no examples. Who knows why she made that suggestion? Perhaps it was because her story changed, with cryng twins becoming Madeleine and Sean and open curtains becoming closed.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 18, 2019, 09:42:25 AM
You cited a story which alleged that the PJ were investigating whether there were mistakes by the interpreters. There's no evidence that the PJ were doing anything of the kind, so the story isn't corroberated

The statements given to CRG are a red herring imo because they don't have any cnnection to the story you cited. You have no evidence they were given to the PJ, so that's opinion. .

Kate McCann seems to be the only person who attempts to suggest there were translation problems and she gives no examples. Who knows why she made that suggestion? Perhaps it was because her story changed, with cryng twins becoming Madeleine and Sean and open curtains becoming closed.

the fact that it is not corroborated does not mean it isnt evidence....it give a certain amount of detail and mentions Rebelo by name...so it is evidence whether you like it or not..
Kate is not the only person...Colin Sutton has suggested the same...you know this so it seems you simply want to deny the existence of evidence which doesnt fit your agenda....thats a very poor practice and questions your credibility
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 18, 2019, 09:43:32 AM
mccanns Stateemnts not accurate...we have no confirmation they are...you will always find an example to back up your claim...are you aware of teh casa pia case in portugal...im sure mrs gasapr got it wrong...her husband certainly thougt so...i can think of a raeson she amde the ckaim but you wouldnt accept it so I wont give it...ive said all along they could have been talking about breast feeding...it fits perfectly...sucking and nipples

Then why wouldn't he have just said 'does she breast feed'?

Why the need for a pervy illustration of an innocent act?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 18, 2019, 09:45:41 AM
Then why wouldn't he have just said 'does she breast feed'?

Why the need for a pervy illustration of an innocent act?

i would say his acts were innocent too...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 18, 2019, 09:54:27 AM
Do sceptics believe, based on the evidence, that there is little or no likelihood of errors in translation having been made in the statements of any of the witnesses?

I'm aware that the statements were read back to and signed as correct by the witnesses. That was their chance to correct any misunderstandings.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 18, 2019, 10:00:55 AM
I'm aware that the statements were read back to and signed as correct by the witnesses. That was their chance to correct any misunderstandings.

Do you have a record of what was read back... In English... No you don't... Simple
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 18, 2019, 10:12:49 AM
As I understand the UK police removed names of suspected or convicted paedophiles, from the, files and were complying  with UK law.. More UK police bashing from you... Simply because they support the innocence of the mccanns

They removed a lot more than that.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 18, 2019, 10:20:02 AM
They removed a lot more than that.

What did they remove... Cite
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 18, 2019, 10:33:46 AM
the fact that it is not corroborated does not mean it isnt evidence....it give a certain amount of detail and mentions Rebelo by name...so it is evidence whether you like it or not..
Kate is not the only person...Colin Sutton has suggested the same...you know this so it seems you simply want to deny the existence of evidence which doesnt fit your agenda....thats a very poor practice and questions your credibility

I disagree. The article in the newspaper was speculation, as was Sutton's opinion.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 18, 2019, 10:39:21 AM
I disagree. The article in the newspaper was speculation, as was Sutton's opinion.

as was amarals book...as is your claim tht the statements are accurate...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 18, 2019, 10:57:14 AM
Just had a listen to podcast #10 where Mark Saunokonoko introduces comments by former Nottinghamshire police superintendent Peter McLeod in relation to the open window and shutter.  He claimed that the shutter would have been bashing down on the head of anyone trying to climb into the children's bedroom. He also claimed that an intruder would have to have put a piece of wood in or something.

Yet again we have uniformed professionals offering opinions which are completely wrong. Everyone who has experienced shutters of this type on the continent know that all anyone has to do in order to raise the shutter completely is to reach in and pull the shutter strap completely down until the shutter raises fully and locks.

I wish these idiots would keep their misinformed comments to themselves.

Did Gerry experience this type of shutter? Days prior he damaged a shutter so I think there's your answer LOL. Gerry never said he touched/released the strap to lower it. He said he made his way outside and found it could be lowered. So how did he pull it down it if it was in a locked position?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 18, 2019, 11:08:50 AM
as was amarals book...as is your claim tht the statements are accurate...

Amaral's hypothesis marched that of the investigation as at 10th September 2007.
I don't claim the statements are accurate, I question claims that they're inaccurate.I also question newspaper articles which claim that the PJ were investigating that possibility because there's no evidence that they did that. . 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 18, 2019, 11:48:52 AM
Amaral's hypothesis marched that of the investigation as at 10th September 2007.
I don't claim the statements are accurate, I question claims that they're inaccurate.I also question newspaper articles which claim that the PJ were investigating that possibility because there's no evidence that they did that. .
The conclusions of the investigation was speculation... If you don't claim the statements are accurate then you, accept they may be inaccurate... That's fine... That's what I've been saying all along
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 18, 2019, 12:13:32 PM
The conclusions of the investigation was speculation... If you don't claim the statements are accurate then you, accept they may be inaccurate... That's fine... That's what I've been saying all along

I can't prove anything regarding the statements and nether can you. The difference between us is that you only seem to use the argument when statements say something tou don't like but can't refute any other way.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 18, 2019, 12:26:27 PM
I can't prove anything regarding the statements and nether can you. The difference between us is that you only seem to use the argument when statements say something tou don't like but can't refute any other way.

There are lots of diferences between us if you want to raise the subject...imo, I understand the evidence and you dont...perhaps its best to leave our personal opinions of each other out of teh debate
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 18, 2019, 12:26:54 PM
They removed a lot more than that.

still no cite
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 18, 2019, 12:29:10 PM
I can't prove anything regarding the statements and nether can you. The difference between us is that you only seem to use the argument when statements say something tou don't like but can't refute any other way.

You now accept the statements may not be accurate.......so the discrepancies may be due to translation errors...poor recall..
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 18, 2019, 12:43:16 PM
And round and round and round we go. To be honest if Kate herself became a member of this forum and posted that their statements were accurate there are still those who would claim that she had been coerced into it.

Why someone who claims to have such an ideal life spends so much time on this forum arguing unimportant points about a case the outcome of which he has no control over baffles me.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 18, 2019, 12:46:43 PM
I've been surprised by the fact that ex Metropolitan police officers have seen fit to speak critically in public about Operayion Grange. Colin Sutton initially, then Graham Witton in MS's Goncalo Amaral podcast and noe a third one has spoken out;

https://twitter.com/saunokonoko/status/1128929135198212097?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 18, 2019, 01:01:16 PM
And round and round and round we go. To be honest if Kate herself became a member of this forum and posted that their statements were accurate there are still those who would claim that she had been coerced into it.

Why someone who claims to have such an ideal life spends so much time on this forum arguing unimportant points about a case the outcome of which he has no control over baffles me.

I've never ever claimed to have an ideal life... I doubt there is such a thing... More personal attacks... You can't help it can you....
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 18, 2019, 01:03:58 PM
I've been surprised by the fact that ex Metropolitan police officers have seen fit to speak critically in public about Operayion Grange. Colin Sutton initially, then Graham Witton in MS's Goncalo Amaral podcast and noe a third one has spoken out;

https://twitter.com/saunokonoko/status/1128929135198212097?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

That's quite laughable considering one of your posts to me today... When Sutton criticises the way the statements, were taken... You term it speculation... When he criticises Grange... It's most important..

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 18, 2019, 02:09:22 PM
That's quite laughable considering one of your posts to me today... When Sutton criticises the way the statements, were taken... You term it speculation... When he criticises Grange... It's most important..

Colin Sutton said a lot of things, many of which you probably don't like;
.
It wasn't possible to monitor the apartment from the Tapas Bar.
It's understandible that the GNR's priority was to search; that's one of their roles,
We mustn't apply UK standards to other places,.
The plethora of responders  from the UK hampered the investigation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FX3u2Hp42ic

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 18, 2019, 02:25:32 PM
Colin Sutton said a lot of things, many of which you probably don't like;
.
It wasn't possible to monitor the apartment from the Tapas Bar.
It's understandible that the GNR's priority was to seatch; that's one of their roles,
We mustn't apply UK standards ro other places,.
The plethora of resonders  from the UK hanpered the investigation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FX3u2Hp42ic

Well you are wrong again... Taken in the context they were made I don't have a problem with any of those... They are valid statements..
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Carana on May 18, 2019, 02:54:01 PM
I've been surprised by the fact that ex Metropolitan police officers have seen fit to speak critically in public about Operayion Grange. Colin Sutton initially, then Graham Witton in MS's Goncalo Amaral podcast and noe a third one has spoken out;

https://twitter.com/saunokonoko/status/1128929135198212097?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

I haven't listened to it yet.

Reading that feed:


3/ In that episode, former FBI profiler @JimClemente goes on to say Operation Grange's remit, abduction by a stranger, appeared to be 'faulty' because it seems to immediately rule out a variety of other scenarios.


is whowever Jim Clemente is aware that a scoping exercise and a review had taken place prior to launching the investigation?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Carana on May 18, 2019, 02:58:42 PM

Mark Saunokonoko
‏Verified account @saunokonoko

Two weeks ago Goncalo Amaral told me Operation Grange was targeting a German paedophile as the man who took and possibly killed Madeleine. He said that man, a known child sex offender, would be a 'scapegoat'


GA may well have told him that. Has Op Grange said anything of the sort?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 18, 2019, 03:02:46 PM
You now accept the statements may not be accurate.......so the discrepancies may be due to translation errors...poor recall..

Of course a lot more was removed!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 18, 2019, 03:13:54 PM
Of course a lot more was removed!

Try replying to the correct post... LOL
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 18, 2019, 03:22:47 PM
Try replying to the correct post... LOL

Don't get steamed up.

My point stands.

 &^^&*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 18, 2019, 03:31:47 PM
Don't get steamed up.

My point stands.

 &^^&*

As does mine... Such a claim requires a cite

Otherwise it's pure speculation
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 18, 2019, 04:16:52 PM
As does mine... Such a claim requires a cite

Otherwise it's pure speculation

Hardly speculation is it?   You will know full-well what has been removed from the files.

At least, if you have read up on them to the extent you frequently claim.

 &^^&*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 18, 2019, 04:22:54 PM
Hardly speculation is it?   You will know full-well what has been removed from the files.

At least, if you have read up on them to the extent you frequently claim.

 &^^&*

So no cite but it appears the mods allow you to get away with it..
Anyone with any common sense would understand  if we knew what had been removed it would be pointless removing it...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 18, 2019, 04:28:47 PM
So no cite but it appears the mods allow you to get away with it..
Anyone with any common sense would understand  if we knew what had been removed it would be pointless removing it...

Not the content, the category.

As anyone with common sense who has actually read the files will know.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 18, 2019, 04:30:32 PM
Well you are wrong again... Taken in the context they were made I don't have a problem with any of those... They are valid statements..

Really? You have never compared the Portuguese police unfavourably with the UK poluce, have you?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 18, 2019, 04:40:36 PM
I haven't listened to it yet.

Reading that feed:


3/ In that episode, former FBI profiler @JimClemente goes on to say Operation Grange's remit, abduction by a stranger, appeared to be 'faulty' because it seems to immediately rule out a variety of other scenarios.


is whowever Jim Clemente is aware that a scoping exercise and a review had taken place prior to launching the investigation?

Do you think that Jim Gamble wrote that the McCanns were innocent in his report? If you read ny link an ex Met woman says Redwood was saying the McCanns weren't involved on the same day that he was appointed to work on the review, so that has nothing to do with Grange's focus.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 18, 2019, 04:51:45 PM
Really? You have never compared the Portuguese police unfavourably with the UK poluce, have you?
I don't think we can demand that Portuguese police operate to the same standards as UK police but Sutton himself has raised the question of inaccurate statement due to the way they were taken

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 18, 2019, 04:53:45 PM
Do you think that Jim Gamble wrote that the McCanns were innocent in his report? If you read my link an ex Met woman says Redwood was saying the McCanns weren't involved on the same day that he was appointed to work on the review, so that has nothing to do with Grange's focus.

So do we simply accept this claim from an ex met woman to be true.... Is that how you think

Ms has claimed the dogs have been involved in 200 cases... Had repeated a claim by amaral that the shuttterd can't be opened from the outside... Accepted a claim by petermac that the window was to narrow for a man to enter... So we know he repeats things that simply are not true
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 18, 2019, 04:55:45 PM
Not the content, the category.

As anyone with common sense who has actually read the files will know.

The category I've seen known paedophiles and their details... Gunit claims there's much more... That requires a cite
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 18, 2019, 04:59:31 PM
The category I've seen known paedophiles and their details... Gunit claims there's much more... That requires a cite

It doesn't

Phone calls.

Material withheld by UK request.

Blindingly obvious.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 18, 2019, 05:01:39 PM
It doesn't

Phone calls.

Material withheld by UK request.

Blindingly obvious.

Then provide a cite.. As per forum rules... Or put two fingers up to forum rules as you normally do to show what an absolute  bore you are
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 18, 2019, 05:11:50 PM
It doesn't

Phone calls.

Material withheld by UK request.

Blindingly obvious.

What phone calls were witheld... Cite
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 18, 2019, 05:16:56 PM
I don't think we can demand that Portuguese police operate to the same standards as UK police but Sutton himself has raised the question of inaccurate statement due to the way they were taken


I thought you didn’t value Sutton’s opinion.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 18, 2019, 05:23:35 PM

I thought you didn’t value Sutton’s opinion.

I'm reporting what he said.. Not valuing it
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 18, 2019, 05:26:38 PM
What phone calls were witheld... Cite

74,104.

I take it you don't understand EU and Portuguese law.

And why oh why are you asking for a cite about something that does NOT appear?

 (&^&
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Carana on May 18, 2019, 05:27:16 PM
Do you think that Jim Gamble wrote that the McCanns were innocent in his report? If you read ny link an ex Met woman says Redwood was saying the McCanns weren't involved on the same day that he was appointed to work on the review, so that has nothing to do with Grange's focus.

Gamble did the scoping exercise, as far as I can work out, which may have been part of the input or the output of Op Task.

No, I seem to remember that Gamble was on record in Netflix saying he originally wondered if Gerry was involved (I'd have to check).

Did Andy initiate Op Grange?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 18, 2019, 05:29:12 PM
74,104.

I take you don't understand EU and Portuguese law.

And why oh why are you asking for a cite about something that does NOT appear?

 (&^&

Still no link to gunits claim... That there was much more witheld... What was witheld was because of EU law and the right to private life... Yet gunit wants to criticise UK police
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 18, 2019, 05:33:21 PM
I've been surprised by the fact that ex Metropolitan police officers have seen fit to speak critically in public about Operayion Grange. Colin Sutton initially, then Graham Witton in MS's Goncalo Amaral podcast and noe a third one has spoken out;

https://twitter.com/saunokonoko/status/1128929135198212097?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

So purely on a claim by MS where no names are mentioned... You are taking this as a fact... Absolutely  laughable
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Carana on May 18, 2019, 05:35:24 PM
The category I've seen known paedophiles and their details... Gunit claims there's much more... That requires a cite

Not sure what the discussion is about. Some documents may be missing from the DVD simply because they got lost in the rush to produce it.

There is more that the UK got withheld, not just condemned or suspected sex offenders.

A. Material relating to condemned and suspected sex offenders
B. Intelligence Reports
C. Crimestoppers (Crime Combating Unit)
D. Communication between Police Forces
E. Orientation of the NPIA
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LAWYERS_UK_POLICE.htm

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 18, 2019, 05:42:47 PM
I'm reporting what he said.. Not valuing it

You’re putting it forward as evidence so I presumed you valued what he said....although only on this topic. Was I wrong ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 18, 2019, 05:45:14 PM
Then why wouldn't he have just said 'does she breast feed'?

Why the need for a pervy illustration of an innocent act?
Why not?  I suppose you’re some sort of puritan who has never made a salacious comment or gesture in his life.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 18, 2019, 05:45:26 PM
So purely on a claim by MS where no names are mentioned... You are taking this as a fact... Absolutely  laughable

Laura Richards I believe she is called.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 18, 2019, 05:45:58 PM
I'm aware that the statements were read back to and signed as correct by the witnesses. That was their chance to correct any misunderstandings.
So answer the question.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 18, 2019, 05:56:57 PM
Laura Richards I believe she is called.
So we don't have a direct quote... We know nothing about her... Just hearsay... But sceptics believe  it's gospel... Laughable
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 18, 2019, 05:59:02 PM
You’re putting it forward as evidence so I presumed you valued what he said....although only on this topic. Was I wrong ?

Gunit claimed only Kate suggested there were mistakes in the translations... I pointed out she was wrong yet again as Sutton had also said it.. It's evidence.... Another piece in the jigsaw
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 18, 2019, 06:01:27 PM
Gunit claimed only Kate suggested there were mistakes in the translations... I pointed out she was wrong yet again as Sutton had also said it.. It's evidence.... Another piece in the jigsaw

So you value Sutton’s opinion ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 18, 2019, 06:04:44 PM
So you value Sutton’s opinion ?

Depends what you mean by value...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 18, 2019, 06:07:28 PM
Depends what you mean by value...

You give it weight.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 18, 2019, 06:08:26 PM
You give it weight.

How much weight
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 18, 2019, 06:10:16 PM
How much weight

Enough to quote him.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 18, 2019, 06:12:19 PM
Enough to quote him.
I quoted what he said... It's a fact he said that
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 18, 2019, 06:13:01 PM
So you value Sutton’s opinion ?
Many sceptics value Sutton’s opinion.  Are they wrong to do so then?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 18, 2019, 06:16:25 PM
"In the early days of the investigation there were dozens of statements being given at what was a very confusing time," a police source said.

"Obviously the police acted in good faith in their selection of translators but given all that has been said about the various contradictions in the versions of events, detectives are now re-examining the possibility that there may have been some problems," he said.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 18, 2019, 06:16:43 PM
To simplify it... I don't value anyones opinion per SE... Thst includes Sutton... Redwood... Anyone connected with Grange... Amaral... Pedro DA Carmo... and all...
I weigh the evidence their opinion is based on..

I think that's game set and match to me...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 18, 2019, 06:30:07 PM
Still no link to gunits claim... That there was much more witheld... What was witheld was because of EU law and the right to private life... Yet gunit wants to criticise UK police

Why would I wish to link to G-Units post?

Please try to get up to speed.

It is in the public domain that a considerable amount of information was not made public.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 18, 2019, 06:32:56 PM
Why would I wish to link to G-Units post?

Please try to get up to speed.

It is in the public domain that a considerable amount of information was not made public.
I think it's best I simply ignore your confused utterings
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 18, 2019, 06:33:46 PM
To simplify it... I don't value anyones opinion per SE... Thst includes Sutton... Redwood... Anyone connected with Grange... Amaral... Pedro DA Carmo... and all...
I weigh the evidence their opinion is based on..

I think that's game set and match to me...

If you quote an opinion in order to prove your opinion the usual understanding is that you think that opinion has merit.
If Amaral had claimed it, would you have quoted him ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 18, 2019, 06:40:39 PM
If you quote an opinion in order to prove your opinion the usual understanding is that you think that opinion has merit.
If Amaral had claimed it, would you have quoted him ?

I quoted the opinion to show the opinion existed...
Like Sil... You have taken posts out of context... When you remove the context the meaning of the statement may not be clear..

Now listen again... I value no ones opinion... I value evidence... Is that clear

And absolutely yes... In the context.. If amaral had claimed it I would have quoted his claim
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 18, 2019, 06:58:00 PM
I quoted the opinion to show the opinion existed...
Like Sil... You have taken posts out of context... When you remove the context the meaning of the statement may not be clear..

Now listen again... I value no ones opinion... I value evidence... Is that clear

And absolutely yes... In the context.. If amaral had claimed it I would have quoted his claim

Stop wriggling Davel...I’ll let you off the hook. @)(++(*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 18, 2019, 07:05:25 PM
Stop wriggling Davel...I’ll let you off the hook. @)(++(*

trying to save face......you lost the argument some time ago.....
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 18, 2019, 07:06:20 PM
He mentioned police statements being suppressed but not which. All I know is that the PJ submitted the questions to be put to the FLO's and Stuart Prior changed them. Obviously we don't know what the UK police had withdrawn from the files before they were released. The UK had no intention of being as open and transparent as the PJ about what had been done.

I fear you are right, the British police have gone out of their way to keep the public in the dark as much as possible while spending public funds as if there was no tomorrow. Hopefully the Met will be held accountable in the end for what has been going on and those behind this charade exposed.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 18, 2019, 07:07:52 PM
Do sceptics believe, based on the evidence, that there is little or no likelihood of errors in translation having been made in the statements of any of the witnesses?

Very minor errors if any imo.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 18, 2019, 07:08:45 PM
I fear you are right, the British police have gone out of their way to keep the public in the dark as much as possible while spending public funds as if there was no tomorrow. Hopefully the Met will be held accountable in the end for what has been going on and those behind this charade exposed.
I absolutely agree the Met should be held accountable ...not necessarily to the likes of MS...Bennett and the like...
I also beleive amaral and his team should be held accountable and am sure the truth will come out at the ECHR
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 18, 2019, 07:09:14 PM
Very minor errors if any imo.

gross errors..imo
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 18, 2019, 07:10:10 PM
You cited a story which alleged that the PJ were investigating whether there were mistakes by the interpreters. There's no evidence that the PJ were doing anything of the kind, so the story isn't corroberated

The statements given to CRG are a red herring imo because they don't have any cnnection to the story you cited. You have no evidence they were given to the PJ, so that's opinion. .

Kate McCann seems to be the only person who attempts to suggest there were translation problems and she gives no examples. Who knows why she made that suggestion? Perhaps it was because her story changed, with cryng twins becoming Madeleine and Sean and open curtains becoming closed.

She didn't have a problem with the "no comment" replies though. 😂
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 18, 2019, 07:11:11 PM
gross errors..imo

And not once have you been able to substantiate that claim.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 18, 2019, 07:21:03 PM
And not once have you been able to substantiate that claim.

and you cant substantiate yours ....
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 18, 2019, 08:35:02 PM
I fear you are right, the British police have gone out of their way to keep the public in the dark as much as possible while spending public funds as if there was no tomorrow. Hopefully the Met will be held accountable in the end for what has been going on and those behind this charade exposed.
I don't think it is usual for police to release information into the public domain while they are involved in working a live case.  I think business will be conducted on a need to know basis.  Makes sense to me ... if you or I know what they are doing so will the guys they are after.

Scotland Yard and their colleagues in the Judicial police have been operating with the greatest discretion and I think that is because they have a firm idea of the direction their investigation is going.

Maddie Case: Judicial Police will have new clues and new suspect
The information is still kept in great secrecy, but Correio da Manhă says it already has confirmation that the investigation has gained new momentum and will have a bigger team.
_________________________________________________________________

Although the details of the identity of the new suspect, for example, are still being kept in absolute silence - the hypothesis is that this new line of investigation does not address the parents of the child - who were beginning of the case - as suspects. Even the prosecution has admitted that this new wave of research promises to be conclusive.

After the news was released, the PJ sent a statement to the newsrooms where it does not confirm or deny the information advanced this Friday but explains that the investigation "remains open, as part of an investigation supervised by the Portimăo Public Prosecutor" and that it has been "developed in articulation with international authorities, obeying the rules of judicial and police cooperation, which the circumstances of the situation justify." It ends by announcing that "it does not consider timely the provision of additional clarifications."

https://observador.pt/2019/05/03/caso-maddie-policia-judiciaria-tera-novas-pistas-e-novo-suspeito/

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 18, 2019, 10:30:58 PM
So do we simply accept this claim from an ex met woman to be true.... Is that how you think

Ms has claimed the dogs have been involved in 200 cases... Had repeated a claim by amaral that the shuttterd can't be opened from the outside... Accepted a claim by petermac that the window was to narrow for a man to enter... So we know he repeats things that simply are not true

MG said case searches not cases.

"In six years of operational deployment in over 200 criminal case searches the dog has never alerted to meat based and specifically pork foodstuffs designed for human consumption. Similarly the dog has never alerted to 'road kill', that is any other dead animal." https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Carana on May 19, 2019, 12:07:34 AM
MG said case searches not cases.

"In six years of operational deployment in over 200 criminal case searches the dog has never alerted to meat based and specifically pork foodstuffs designed for human consumption. Similarly the dog has never alerted to 'road kill', that is any other dead animal." https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

He did in his report, but he originally said cases, though, in his profile.

I've seen that that grew wings on some forums, where some were convinced that Eddie had solved 200 murders...

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 19, 2019, 08:39:32 AM
What translation errors can you foresee as having been made, that may have caused the police files to tell us that David Payne gave the UK police, two completely different versions, of the last time he claims to have seen the missing child alive? I personally believe, based on that evidence alone, it's impossible for any translation errors. In those two examples, there is no translation involved to allow any translation errors to occur.

Do supporters believe DC Marshal couldn't read and write the answers provided in David Payne's questionnaire properly?

Back to you.
I believe he could read and write but I also believe he (and others involved) are human not machines therefore fallible.  Perhaps you could explain why mistakes or mistranslations are impossible?  Are there not examples in the files where times have been incorrectly translated from the 24 hour clock to the standard am/pm time, eg 1700 hours translated as 7pm or vice versa?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 19, 2019, 08:48:42 AM
He did in his report, but he originally said cases, though, in his profile.

I've seen that that grew wings on some forums, where some were convinced that Eddie had solved 200 murders...

I've seen a supposed abduction grow wings,12 yrs on nothing to substantiate it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 19, 2019, 08:53:32 AM
I've seen a supposed abduction grow wings,12 yrs on nothing to substantiate it.

We can prove the dogs didn't help solve 200 cases... As amaral claimed... We can't prove an abduction didn't take place
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 19, 2019, 08:57:29 AM
I believe translation errors were impossible in this instance because neither 1700 hours or 7pm translate into David Payne's final version of 18.30 or 6.30 pm using that method. That's the version were Gerry had suddenly appeared that I'm talking about. That's why I still think it's impossible.

So you believe that DC Marshal could read and write properly and that Kate and Gerry were there at 1700 hours or 7 pm? None of that is what David Payne told the UK police later on.

Thanks for the honesty, that clears that up.

I think based on the, way the statements were taken the room for error is huge... Furthermore we have no way of knowing what those errors, are..... That's why the UK police record the statements in the witnesses own language
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 19, 2019, 09:08:12 AM
I believe translation errors were impossible in this instance because neither 1700 hours or 7pm translate into David Payne's final version of 18.30 or 6.30 pm using that method. That's the version were Gerry had suddenly appeared that I'm talking about. That's why I still think it's impossible.

So you believe that DC Marshal could read and write properly and that Kate and Gerry were there at 1700 hours or 7 pm? None of that is what David Payne told the UK police later on.

Thanks for the honesty, that clears that up.
So you are using one instance to claim that translation errors are impossible throughout all statements ?  Please refresh my memory of the two “completely different” accounts by DP , highlighting all the significant differences, thanks.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 19, 2019, 09:18:24 AM
So you are using one instance to claim that translation errors are impossible throughout all statements ?  Please refresh my memory of the two “completely different” accounts by DP , highlighting all the significant differences, thanks.

only one account is by DP the other is  a hearsay account...another source of potential error
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 19, 2019, 09:20:03 AM
Are you seriously suggesting DC Marshal of Leicester Police and David Payne were corresponding in Portuguese? His UK interview was recorded in his own language. There's a serious error in your way of thinking IMO about the two completely different versions, the file tells us David Payne told UK police. Both statements were taken in the UK in English.

It's says a lot about the seriousness of these events when I read supporters coming up with excuses that are so pathetic IMO, that even Kate and Gerry McCann haven't dared to use them in 12 long years.

I'll be sure to bear them in mind.

Dc marshall gave his account of his conversation with DP....thats second hand and another area for potential error
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 19, 2019, 09:21:28 AM
Are you seriously suggesting DC Marshal of Leicester Police and David Payne were corresponding in Portuguese? His UK interview was recorded in his own language. There's a serious error in your way of thinking IMO about the two completely different versions, the file tells us David Payne told UK police. Both statements were taken in the UK in English.

It's says a lot about the seriousness of these events when I read supporters coming up with excuses that are so pathetic IMO, that even Kate and Gerry McCann haven't dared to use them in 12 long years.

I'll be sure to bear them in mind.

could you provide  alink to both stateemnts...lets get this cleared up
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 19, 2019, 09:29:05 AM
Yes I'm using one instance, the instance were David Payne's two completely different versions of the last time he claims to have seen the missing child alive were recorded in his own language by Leicester Police. 

David Payne's 1st version:
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/Gaspar.htm
"I read carefully the written document/questionnaire provided by David Payne."
but was not able to extricate any other information besides what is already known. He declares that he saw Madeleine, for the last time, at 17H00 on 3/5/07 in the McCann apartment. Also present there were Kate AND GERRY. He did not indicate the motive for being there or what he was doing. He also cannot indicate how long he stayed.
David Payne's 2nd version;
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
"So I walked back err from the tennis courts, err back to err you know Kate and Gerry's apartment and the time you know looking at, you know we've looked obviously at photographs since then and you know the time that we've got that I was you know going to Kate's about SIX THIRTY, err and I went into their apartment through the patio doors. The three children were all you know dressed you know in their pyjamas, you know they looked immaculate, you know they were just like angels, they all looked so happy and well looked after and content and I said to Kate, you know it's a bit early for the you know, for the three of them to be going to bed, she said ah they've had such a great time, they're really tired and you know err so I say, you know I can't remember exactly what, what you know the night attire, what the children were wearing but white was the predominant err colour, but you know just to reinforce they were just so happy, you know seeing you know obviously GERRY WASN'T THERE but they were just all."

How much clearer do you want me to be?

It can hardly be translation issues in this instance, hence the reason I chose it. Both statements are recorded in English.

as i said DC marshall may have made a mistake...it really is that simple

in fact this is not DC marshalls stateemnt...its  a transaltion of a transaltion from portuguese of DC marshalls statement
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 19, 2019, 09:40:40 AM
Any so called potential error is not through translation in David Payne's case, which leaves the DC Marshal couldn't read and write David Payne's answers properly theory.

If both you and VS are truly happy to go on the record to believe that's what happened, who am I to question to you both.

Have a nice day.

I'll leave you with the Monkey's track of the day: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6swgiM9vSEE&list=RD6swgiM9vSEE&start_radio=1

dc marshall may be mistaken or the person who transalted his statement into portuguse  may be mistaken
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 19, 2019, 09:41:05 AM
Yes I'm using one instance, the instance were David Payne's two completely different versions of the last time he claims to have seen the missing child alive were recorded in his own language by Leicester Police. 

David Payne's 1st version:
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/Gaspar.htm
"I read carefully the written document/questionnaire provided by David Payne."
but was not able to extricate any other information besides what is already known. He declares that he saw Madeleine, for the last time, at 17H00 on 3/5/07 in the McCann apartment. Also present there were Kate AND GERRY. He did not indicate the motive for being there or what he was doing. He also cannot indicate how long he stayed.
David Payne's 2nd version;
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
"So I walked back err from the tennis courts, err back to err you know Kate and Gerry's apartment and the time you know looking at, you know we've looked obviously at photographs since then and you know the time that we've got that I was you know going to Kate's about SIX THIRTY, err and I went into their apartment through the patio doors. The three children were all you know dressed you know in their pyjamas, you know they looked immaculate, you know they were just like angels, they all looked so happy and well looked after and content and I said to Kate, you know it's a bit early for the you know, for the three of them to be going to bed, she said ah they've had such a great time, they're really tired and you know err so I say, you know I can't remember exactly what, what you know the night attire, what the children were wearing but white was the predominant err colour, but you know just to reinforce they were just so happy, you know seeing you know obviously GERRY WASN'T THERE but they were just all."

How much clearer do you want me to be?

It can hardly be translation issues in this instance, hence the reason I chose it. Both statements are recorded in English.
Obviously there is an error in translation in the time in the first instance.  It should have read 7pm.  Who knows what DP actually said though.  The difference is substantially whittled down from 90 minutes to 30 minutes, and give or take a few minutes owing to the fact that at the time no one was constantly clock watching I don’t see it as remotely troublesome.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 19, 2019, 09:47:14 AM
Any so called potential error is not through translation in David Payne's case, which leaves the DC Marshal couldn't read and write David Payne's answers properly theory.

If both you and VS are truly happy to go on the record to believe that's what happened, who am I to question to you both.

Have a nice day.

I'll leave you with the Monkey's track of the day: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6swgiM9vSEE&list=RD6swgiM9vSEE&start_radio=1


DC Marshall took his reply from thsi...


"I read carefully the written document/questionnaire provided by David Payne."


do you know what document he was referring to
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 19, 2019, 09:50:50 AM
I think based on the, way the statements were taken the room for error is huge... Furthermore we have no way of knowing what those errors, are..... That's why the UK police record the statements in the witnesses own language

No they don't.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 19, 2019, 09:56:24 AM
Obviously there is an error in translation in the time in the first instance.  It should have read 7pm.  Who knows what DP actually said though.  The difference is substantially whittled down from 90 minutes to 30 minutes, and give or take a few minutes owing to the fact that at the time no one was constantly clock watching I don’t see it as remotely troublesome.

They were clock watching.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 19, 2019, 09:58:05 AM
As far as I can see the error in times is because of the difference in which clock one is using.  5pm.  17.00.  7pm.

In France we use the 24 Hour Clock,  Brits generally don't, so it is easy to create confusion.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 19, 2019, 09:58:44 AM
Just had a listen to podcast #10 where Mark Saunokonoko introduces comments by former Nottinghamshire police superintendent Peter McLeod in relation to the open window and shutter.  He claimed that the shutter would have been bashing down on the head of anyone trying to climb into the children's bedroom. He also claimed that an intruder would have to have put a piece of wood in or something.

Yet again we have uniformed professionals offering opinions which are completely wrong. Everyone who has experienced shutters of this type on the continent know that all anyone has to do in order to raise the shutter completely is to reach in and pull the shutter strap completely down until the shutter raises fully and locks.

I wish these idiots would keep their misinformed comments to themselves.

Is/was this possible to do this from the outside,which the video PM shows doing way before the podcast?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 19, 2019, 10:03:25 AM
Is/was this possible to do this from the outside,which the video PM shows doing way before the podcast?

yes it is...it was shown and expalined by Heriberto
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 19, 2019, 10:05:53 AM
No they don't.

I have provide cites to show this is how stateemnts are taken....you are quoting your opinion based what youve seen on the telly...LOL
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 19, 2019, 10:20:35 AM
As far as I can see the error in times is because of the difference in which clock one is using.  5pm.  17.00.  7pm.

In France we use the 24 Hour Clock,  Brits generally don't, so it is easy to create confusion.

None of those times relate to the time he gives in his rogatory interview, when he said he went there at 6:30. How do you explain the Gerry conundrum? Was he present as per the questionnaire or was he playing tennis as per the rogatory interview?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 19, 2019, 10:23:57 AM
yes it is...it was shown and expalined by Heriberto

Not at 5a though,that is the supposed crime scene.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 19, 2019, 10:24:01 AM
OK, I'll accept your huge assumption that it should have read 7 pm. But David Payne doesn't say that either.
I couldn't help observe you appear to have no excuse, funny or otherwise for Gerry doing a disappearing act from David Payne's second version of the last time he claims he seen the child alive.

Nothing that indicates parental involvement is troublesome to you, everyone knows that.

Good luck with solving the case.
Did Payne actually say Gerry was there or was that the assumption of the interviewer?  We simply don’t know. Furthermore if he did indeed say Gerry was there, so what?  Can a man not have an error of recollection or should his memory be 100% accurate months after the event?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 19, 2019, 10:24:42 AM
They were clock watching.
Cite.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 19, 2019, 10:25:03 AM
None of those times relate to the time he gives in his rogatory interview, when he said he went there at 6:30. How do you explain the Gerry conundrum? Was he present as per the questionnaire or was he playing tennis as per the rogatory interview?

So you think David Payne had something to do with Madeleine's disappearance?  Did he dispose of the body during this questioned half hour?

The whole thing is utterly stupid, In My Opinion, and amounts to nothing.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 19, 2019, 10:26:41 AM
I have provide cites to show this is how stateemnts are taken....you are quoting your opinion based what youve seen on the telly...LOL

Nope, you haven't.

The process is very similar to the Portuguese one.  A translator.  But taken down in English.  The English legal system does not work in Greek, Russian, Chinese, Japanese, Croat, Slovak, Bulgarian, French, Dutch, Spanish, Italian, Welsh, Gaelic, Portuguese etc. etc. etc.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 19, 2019, 10:29:56 AM
None of those times relate to the time he gives in his rogatory interview, when he said he went there at 6:30. How do you explain the Gerry conundrum? Was he present as per the questionnaire or was he playing tennis as per the rogatory interview?
What difference does it make to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann?  I wonder why if this point is so important DP was never made an arguido, any explanation ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 19, 2019, 10:31:56 AM
Cite.

Are you being serious?


The men were to play tennis in an event they had asked to alter the start time.  It's in more than one statement.  Plus the clock-watching.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 19, 2019, 10:39:36 AM
Just had a listen to podcast #10 where Mark Saunokonoko introduces comments by former Nottinghamshire police superintendent Peter McLeod in relation to the open window and shutter.  He claimed that the shutter would have been bashing down on the head of anyone trying to climb into the children's bedroom. He also claimed that an intruder would have to have put a piece of wood in or something.

Yet again we have uniformed professionals offering opinions which are completely wrong. Everyone who has experienced shutters of this type on the continent know that all anyone has to do in order to raise the shutter completely is to reach in and pull the shutter strap completely down until the shutter raises fully and locks.

I wish these idiots would keep their misinformed comments to themselves.

Also  is that not supposing the window was open.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 19, 2019, 10:40:17 AM
So you think David Payne had something to do with Madeleine's disappearance?  Did he dispose of the body during this questioned half hour?

The whole thing is utterly stupid, In My Opinion, and amounts to nothing.

No, what I'm discussing is inconsisencies in David Payne's accounts, not the reason for those inconsistencies. I assume you have no opinion on why, whatever time he was in the McCann's apartment, he contradicts himself about  Gerry McCann's presence.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 19, 2019, 10:53:18 AM
Nope, you haven't.

The process is very similar to the Portuguese one.  A translator.  But taken down in English.  The English legal system does not work in Greek, Russian, Chinese, Japanese, Croat, Slovak, Bulgarian, French, Dutch, Spanish, Italian, Welsh, Gaelic, Portuguese etc. etc. etc.

have you forgotten already...this is the uk process...nothing like the portuguese process..


Any witness statement taken from a person who has difficulty in speaking or understanding English should be recorded in the foreign language and signed by the witness.  It should include the declaration prescribed in Section 9(2)(b) Criminal Justice Act 1967.   Witness statements for the purpose of Section 5A(3)(a) and 5B of the Magistrates’ Court Act 1980, must be the statement of the witness and not a translation of what was said by the interpreter – R v Raynor, Times Law Reports, 19 September 2000.


www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/interpreters
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 19, 2019, 10:58:31 AM
Of course a man can have an error of collection, but if their ability to recollect the last time they allege they seen the child alive was so poor, that the file says, they gave police two completely different versions of the last time they claim they seen the missing child alive, it has to call into question the veracity of what they say about them ever seeing the missing child alive in the first place.

You can't have it both it ways. You can give a try, but you'll only be wasting your time with me.
You are IMO completely overstating the differences as you see them and are making zero allowances for human error.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 19, 2019, 10:59:27 AM
Are you being serious?


The men were to play tennis in an event they had asked to alter the start time.  It's in more than one statement.  Plus the clock-watching.
Yes I am serious.  I would like a cite for DP and KM clock watching between 6 and 7 pm.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 19, 2019, 11:00:15 AM
Of course a man can have an error of collection, but if their ability to recollect the last time they allege they seen the child alive was so poor, that the file says, they gave police two completely different versions of the last time they claim they seen the missing child alive, it has to call into question the veracity of what they say about them ever seeing the missing child alive in the first place.

You can't have it both it ways. You can give a try, but you'll only be wasting your time with me.

I suspect that we are all wasting our time with you.  But some of us feel some responsibilities to Guests reading this Forum.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 19, 2019, 11:00:29 AM
The files tell us that the last two men to claim to have seen the missing child alive, gave the police two completely different versions of an event that is considered critical in every investigation.. and you think those concerns are utterly stupid and amount to nothing.  &%%6

Jimmy the abductor, eat your heart out.
 
Can you explain why DP has never been constituted arguido?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 19, 2019, 11:01:22 AM
What difference does it make to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann?  I wonder why if this point is so important DP was never made an arguido, any explanation ?

I'm not discussing that, I'm discussing inconsostencies in witness accounts. David Payne contradicted himself about the time and circumstances when he last saw Madeleine imo.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 19, 2019, 11:04:32 AM
I'm not discussing that, I'm discussing inconsostencies in witness accounts. David Payne contradicted himself about the time and circumstances when he last saw Madeleine imo.
So what?  We know there are numerous inconsistencies, not just with the Tapas Group statements but with the staff and other witnesses. The police have not appeared to attach any major significance to this particular discrepancy so why do you?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 19, 2019, 11:05:32 AM
No, what I'm discussing is inconsisencies in David Payne's accounts, not the reason for those inconsistencies. I assume you have no opinion on why, whatever time he was in the McCann's apartment, he contradicts himself about  Gerry McCann's presence.

I am sticking to the things that matter, should there have ever been a Trial.  Most of the stuff posted on this Forum by Sceptics wouldn't even make the short list.  It's mostly peripheral rubbish.  A trained Lawyer would know what I mean.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 19, 2019, 11:15:15 AM
You mighten have noticed, but reading your opinion is something I can live with. IMO if anyone is overstating anything, it's you. The files say the last two men to claim to have seen the child alive gave the police two completely different versions of the last time they claim they seen that critical event take place. Those are facts, not opinions. I'm quite certain, that the one's trying (and failing IMO) to overstate the possible excuses for these discrepancies are the supporters.
I'm dealing with the facts of what the files say, not what supporters vivid imaginations, laughably IMO, have been coming up with.
It’s a matter of your opinion against mine, and the fact is DP has never been made an official suspect, which tends to support my opinion rather than yours.  Soz la.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 19, 2019, 11:17:45 AM
Yes I am serious.  I would like a cite for DP and KM clock watching between 6 and 7 pm.

As I never said KM was clock watching we can discard that one.

As for the rest, I have already explained why the Tapas 7 were clock watching.  Fill your boots on the relevant witness statements.

 &^^&*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 19, 2019, 11:42:36 AM
You are IMO completely overstating the differences as you see them and are making zero allowances for human error.

At some point following his return to the UK David Payne said he last saw Madeleine at 17:00 in 5A with her parents.
In May 2008 he said he last saw her at 6.30 pm in 5A with her mother and siblings. In my opinion that can't be explained as a human error, it's a change of story.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 19, 2019, 11:47:09 AM
At some point following his return to the UK David Payne said he last saw Madeleine at 17:00 in 5A with her parents.
In May 2008 he said he last saw her at 6.30 pm in 5A with her mother and siblings. In my opinion that can't be explained as a human error, it's a change of story.

And your opinion is not important
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 19, 2019, 11:52:06 AM
At some point following his return to the UK David Payne said he last saw Madeleine at 17:00 in 5A with her parents.
In May 2008 he said he last saw her at 6.30 pm in 5A with her mother and siblings. In my opinion that can't be explained as a human error, it's a change of story.

I’ve always felt that Payne was coerced into changing his story by Gerry.

Payne didn’t check on Gerry’s children at all but Gerry claimed that he had. Further it was Gerry who first made it known that Payne had visited Kate.

It was almost as if Gerry wanted to drag Payne deeper into the story.....a fact Payne didn’t seem too happy about.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 19, 2019, 11:55:37 AM
What difference does it make to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann?  I wonder why if this point is so important DP was never made an arguido, any explanation ?

If Amaral had seen that statement then it would have been followed up. SY haven't followed it up as far as we know.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 19, 2019, 12:04:30 PM
Arul Gaspar: "During the period we stayed at the villa I remember a gesture made by David Payne.
I do not remember the context of the conversation between David and Gerry, but I do remember seeing David use his left index finger to rub his nipple, using circular movements, whilst he put his right index finger into his mouth, touching his tongue. This happened during a meal, at the end of the day in the villa, I do not remember the time or the date, but we would usually dine between 19.30 and 21.00 every day. I think this happened in the middle of the holiday.

I remember that when I saw this gesture I immediately thought it to be in very bad taste".
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/Gaspar.htm

That's what it contains that I'd want to talk about. Mr Gaspar seems to confirm that the incident did take place. Because it didn't concern Mr Gaspar enough, does not alter the fact that it was an incident that concerned his wife enough, to take the decision to call the police and give them a statement regarding David Payne. That's not an easy decision to make IMO... but despite the supporters ire, she still made it nevertheless.

Mrs Gaspar might have thought twice if she had known she would be up for public scrutiny.  Her statement was hardly a cohesive account.
She was sitting between David Payne and Gerald McCann while they supposedly discussed the sexual abuse of one of their children.
Does that make sense to you?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 19, 2019, 12:07:05 PM
"The first time I heard the terrible news regarding the disappearance of Madeleine McCann on the radio, my thoughts raced immediately to Dave. I asked Savio if Dave was also on holiday with the McCanns in Portugal, but he didn’t know. I watched TV to catch the coverage of the news and eventually discovered that Dave was there with the McCanns.

“Then I saw him on TV a few days after Madeleine disappeared. I therefore believed that he was on holiday with the McCanns in Portugal. Today, Wednesday 16 May, 2007, at 3.40pm, I have given Detective Constable Brewer a page containing 2 photographic images. I am going to reference these images as: Ref KZG/1). I consent that these may be exhibited as required [by the police]. All these photographs were taken during our holidays in Majorca. In the photographs, Dave is wearing a white T-shirt and the woman in the photograph is his wife Fiona. The man that is holding the cup of wine in the photograph is _____”.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 19, 2019, 12:08:56 PM
"The first time I heard the terrible news regarding the disappearance of Madeleine McCann on the radio, my thoughts raced immediately to Dave. I asked Savio if Dave was also on holiday with the McCanns in Portugal, but he didn’t know. I watched TV to catch the coverage of the news and eventually discovered that Dave was there with the McCanns.

“Then I saw him on TV a few days after Madeleine disappeared. I therefore believed that he was on holiday with the McCanns in Portugal. Today, Wednesday 16 May, 2007, at 3.40pm, I have given Detective Constable Brewer a page containing 2 photographic images. I am going to reference these images as: Ref KZG/1). I consent that these may be exhibited as required [by the police]. All these photographs were taken during our holidays in Majorca. In the photographs, Dave is wearing a white T-shirt and the woman in the photograph is his wife Fiona. The man that is holding the cup of wine in the photograph is _____”.

And?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 19, 2019, 12:10:52 PM
That is a strong damning accusation to provide the police in most people's eyes! And it has never been followed up!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 19, 2019, 12:14:22 PM
Mrs Gaspar might have thought twice if she had known she would be up for public scrutiny.  Her statement was hardly a cohesive account.
She was sitting between David Payne and Gerald McCann while they supposedly discussed the sexual abuse of one of their children.
Does that make sense to you?

It did to her.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 19, 2019, 12:18:07 PM
It did to her.

Exactly.  Excuse us while we talk across you about the sexual abuse of one of our daughters.  Not all there, if you ask me.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 19, 2019, 12:21:44 PM
Whatever you say about the Gaspar's statements makes no difference to the facts you see. You asked me if I read Mr Gaspar's statement which confirmed David Payne was involved in an incident which he felt was in bad taste. However many times Mrs Gaspar thought about it, she made the call.

I've no experience in anything remotely similar and can offer no insight into Mrs Gaspar's way of thinking. The facts are, she called police to report her concerns that one of the last men to see the missing child alive may have an unhealthy interest in young children. The file says that man gave the police two completely different versions of the last time he claims he seen the child alive.

In my book, I'd like to think such concerns would warrant a thorough investigation regarding all children. If you beg to differ on that view, by all means, be my guest.

I know you have your responsibilities to guests to consider.  8(0(*

You know for a fact that the allegation wasn't investigated, do you?

I can only presume that you think Gerald McCann was also guilty of the sexual abuse of his daughter.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 19, 2019, 12:24:18 PM
It’s a matter of your opinion against mine, and the fact is DP has never been made an official suspect, which tends to support my opinion rather than yours.  Soz la.

Why would DP be made a suspect? Changing his story didn't help him at all; it helped his friends.


Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 19, 2019, 12:26:01 PM
You know for a fact that the allegation wasn't investigated, do you?

I can only presume that you think Gerald McCann was also guilty of the sexual abuse of his daughter.

As the file on sexual perversion was prohibited from publication, we don't know if it was investigated by the PJ, by OG, or by the current PJ investigation.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 19, 2019, 12:30:17 PM
As the file on sexual perversion was prohibited from publication, we don't know if it was investigated by the PJ, by OG, or by the current PJ investigation.

So The PJ and Scotland Yard ignored this reference to the sexual abuse of small girls by their fathers.  Goodness Me.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 19, 2019, 12:36:46 PM
Why would DP be made a suspect? Changing his story didn't help him at all; it helped his friends.

he would be guilty of perverting the course of justice...a serious offence
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 19, 2019, 12:38:02 PM
So The PJ and Scotland Yard ignored this reference to the sexual abuse of small girls by their fathers.  Goodness Me.

I said we don't know, and I stand by that.

The remit of OG is confined to abduction.  So unless you think DP abducted MBM ...

The remit of the Oporto team seems to be less restricted.  But I certainly don't know if they 'investigated' the Gaspar statement, or how they would go about it.

Any ideas?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 19, 2019, 12:44:18 PM
he would be guilty of perverting the course of justice...a serious offence

You mean an 18 month suspended sentence in Portugal?

 (&^&
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 19, 2019, 12:47:19 PM
Err.... excuse me. Did I say any of that?

When you are a moderator you must be permitted to presume whatever you like.... even if it does means you have to neglect your responsibilities to reading guests to provide a cite to support the presumptions you are posting.

Me... I'm just going stick to the facts and leave the all presuming to you.

Do you realise that Mrs Gaspar was sitting between Gerald McCann and David Payne while Gerald McCann and David Payne discussed this alleged sexual abuse of one or both of their baby daughters by both of them?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 19, 2019, 12:48:59 PM
What difference does it make to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann?  I wonder why if this point is so important DP was never made an arguido, any explanation ?
The crime appears to be an abduction.  DP clearly wasn't involved with that if Gerry saw Madeleine  at 9:05.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 19, 2019, 12:52:34 PM
he would be guilty of perverting the course of justice...a serious offence

Only if it could be proved that he changed his story with that deliverate intention. Like his mother-in-law he could claim forgetfulness, I imagine. In May 2007 she categorically denied passing Matthew Oldfirld on her way to the Tapas on 3rd May, but  managed to remember it the following year.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 19, 2019, 12:58:59 PM
You mean an 18 month suspended sentence in Portugal?

 (&^&

how was it that cipriano admitted her daughter died in an accident and she disposed of the body got 20 yeras
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 19, 2019, 01:18:04 PM
Mrs Gaspar and her husband sat in the company of David Payne and Gerry McCann, (the last two men to see the child alive) and David Payne made a gesture that both Gaspars felt was in very poor taste. Some years later Mrs Gaspar, took what must have been a very difficult decision IMO to call police to report her previous concerns that she felt may have included David Payne discussing the possible child sexual abuse of Madeleine.  Those are facts. The file goes on to tell us that David Payne gave the police in the UK two completely different versions of the last time he claims he seen the missing child alive. That is another fact which I refuse to ignore.

What is it exactly about those facts, that you feel I'm failing to realise?

Two Paedophile Perverts do not discuss their Perversions with their own Daughters with a Female Doctor sitting between them.

Unless you know some very peculiar perverts.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 19, 2019, 01:23:51 PM
how was it that cipriano admitted her daughter died in an accident and she disposed of the body got 20 yeras

I have made it clear I am not familiar with the Cipriano case, so why keep on dragging it in?

Were the perps convicted for body occultation?  Or perverting the course of justice? Or what?

A little clarity might shine a light.

So here's some.  The penalty for body occultation is 2 years.  Amaral got 18 months for 'perverting the course of justice'. 

What was she found guilty of?  Simple question, so it should be simple to answer.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 19, 2019, 01:33:51 PM
The fact that your are having trouble taking in, is the fact that Mrs Gaspar thought that very possibility existed enough to call the police and report those very concerns. I didn't call the old bill, a woman who had been in the company of both men, did, to report those very concerns. That's a fact. One you are clearly having great difficulty in having to swallow.

Out of curiosity, how the hell can you deduce with any certainty what two paedophiles would discuss and when they'd choose to do it?

I will not record my opinion of Doctor Katerina Gaspar.  It might be considered Libellous.  As are some of your comments on this subject.

I shall not hesitate to delete your comments if you stray too far across the line.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 19, 2019, 01:40:40 PM
At some point following his return to the UK David Payne said he last saw Madeleine at 17:00 in 5A with her parents.
In May 2008 he said he last saw her at 6.30 pm in 5A with her mother and siblings. In my opinion that can't be explained as a human error, it's a change of story.
Can you explain why, in your opinion, 1700 was definitely not an error of transcription for 7pm but must have been a deliberate change of story instead?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 19, 2019, 01:42:24 PM
I’ve always felt that Payne was coerced into changing his story by Gerry.

Payne didn’t check on Gerry’s children at all but Gerry claimed that he had. Further it was Gerry who first made it known that Payne had visited Kate.

It was almost as if Gerry wanted to drag Payne deeper into the story.....a fact Payne didn’t seem too happy about.
Any sceptic wantto start bleating about libel at this stage feel free.  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 19, 2019, 01:44:13 PM
Why would DP be made a suspect? Changing his story didn't help him at all; it helped his friends.
Because according to you he is lying to help his friends.  Isn’t that a criminal activity?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 19, 2019, 01:45:21 PM
You mean an 18 month suspended sentence in Portugal?

 (&^&
Yes, and?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 19, 2019, 01:46:18 PM
As I never said KM was clock watching we can discard that one.

As for the rest, I have already explained why the Tapas 7 were clock watching.  Fill your boots on the relevant witness statements.

 &^^&*
I must remember to tell people to fill their boots with the relevant witness statements next time I am asked for a cite.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 19, 2019, 01:49:49 PM
Only if it could be proved that he changed his story with that deliverate intention. Like his mother-in-law he could claim forgetfulness, I imagine. In May 2007 she categorically denied passing Matthew Oldfirld on her way to the Tapas on 3rd May, but  managed to remember it the following year.
Do you believe there were not enough grounds to make DP an official suspect in this case?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 19, 2019, 01:51:33 PM
I have made it clear I am not familiar with the Cipriano case, so why keep on dragging it in?

Were the perps convicted for body occultation?  Or perverting the course of justice? Or what?

A little clarity might shine a light.

So here's some.  The penalty for body occultation is 2 years.  Amaral got 18 months for 'perverting the course of justice'. 

What was she found guilty of?  Simple question, so it should be simple to answer.
Just because you are not does not dictate
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 19, 2019, 01:53:07 PM
I have made it clear I am not familiar with the Cipriano case, so why keep on dragging it in?

Were the perps convicted for body occultation?  Or perverting the course of justice? Or what?

A little clarity might shine a light.

So here's some.  The penalty for body occultation is 2 years.  Amaral got 18 months for 'perverting the course of justice'. 

What was she found guilty of?  Simple question, so it should be simple to answer.
She admitted (under no duress whatsoever, apart from a little bit of torture) to her part in a murder.  If she’d just admitted to helping carve up the body and feeding it to the pigs she’d only have got a two year suspended sentence.  She’ll know better next time I expect. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 19, 2019, 01:59:34 PM
She admitted (under no duress whatsoever, apart from a little bit of torture) to her part in a murder.  If she’d just admitted to helping carve up the body and feeding it to the pigs she’d only have got a two year suspended sentence.  She’ll know better next time I expect.

At last!

You don't get 20 years for body occultation in Portugal!

Did she admit to carving up the body?  That is not my understanding of body occultation.  Occultation needs no more than putting the body in the nearest wheelie bin.  The ones Kate had passed at least 4 times.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 19, 2019, 02:06:10 PM
She admitted (under no duress whatsoever, apart from a little bit of torture) to her part in a murder.  If she’d just admitted to helping carve up the body and feeding it to the pigs she’d only have got a two year suspended sentence.  She’ll know better next time I expect.

I don't think she did... I think under torture she admitted to slapping Joanna and her accidentally banging her head..
She didn't admit... As far, as I know... To the dismembering of the body... That was the fantasy of the pj as I understand
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 19, 2019, 02:21:38 PM
Not having met David Payne personally it's difficult to make that call.. but one thing we can prove.. and old acquaintance certainly phoned the police in the UK to tell them she thought he should be a suspect. She believed he may have been a paedophile.. a statement which was suppressed from the investigators. I
I believe in concentrating on the facts. Some of those facts are causing some distress it would appear.

For those who can't stand the heat... they shouldn't come into the kitchen IMO.  8(0(*

Either Dr Gadpar was mistaken or Gerry discussed sexually abusing his own daughter in front of a group of friends..and the police have covered it up... Take your pick
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 19, 2019, 02:27:23 PM
Not having met David Payne personally it's difficult to make that call.. but one thing we can prove.. and old acquaintance certainly phoned the police in the UK to tell them she thought he should be a suspect. She believed he may have been a paedophile.. a statement which was suppressed from the investigators. I
I believe in concentrating on the facts. Some of those facts are causing some distress it would appear.

For those who can't stand the heat... they shouldn't come into the kitchen IMO.  8(0(*

David Payne was not an old acquaintance of The Gaspars.  Gerald McCann was.  Why is there no interest in Gerry's apparent involvement?

If you think I am distressed then you don't know much about me.  David Payne was never arrested or charged with any offence related to this.  What's to get distressed about?  Other than your repeated Innuendos.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 19, 2019, 02:32:40 PM
I'll stick to the facts thanks very much. We can prove Mrs Gaspar called police to report her concerns that David Payne may have had an interest of a sexual nature in the missing child and the files also tell us that the very same man told police two completely different versions of the last time he claims he seen the missing child alive.

The child is still missing.

That's my pick, right there. The facts are what I choose to pick.

Again... Believe what you want to believe... It doesn't really matter
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 19, 2019, 02:35:06 PM
At last!

You don't get 20 years for body occultation in Portugal!

Did she admit to carving up the body?  That is not my understanding of body occultation.  Occultation needs no more than putting the body in the nearest wheelie bin.  The ones Kate had passed at least 4 times.
So hiding a body in a bin gets two years suspended, what does carving it up and feeding to pigs get?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 19, 2019, 02:36:41 PM
Not having met David Payne personally it's difficult to make that call.. but one thing we can prove.. and old acquaintance certainly phoned the police in the UK to tell them she thought he should be a suspect. She believed he may have been a paedophile.. a statement which was suppressed from the investigators. I
I believe in concentrating on the facts. Some of those facts are causing some distress it would appear.

For those who can't stand the heat... they shouldn't come into the kitchen IMO.  8(0(*
Says the monkey who keeps announcing he has better things to be doing on a Sunday and posting youtube clips. before apparently scampering off to do far more highbrow stuff.  LOL.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 19, 2019, 02:38:48 PM
Again... Believe what you want to believe... It doesn't really matter

You are absolutely right.  It doesn't matter.  Not of the slightest importance.  No one was charged with anything.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 19, 2019, 02:39:13 PM
Not having met David Payne personally it's difficult to make that call.. but one thing we can prove.. and old acquaintance certainly phoned the police in the UK to tell them she thought he should be a suspect. She believed he may have been a paedophile.. a statement which was suppressed from the investigators. I
I believe in concentrating on the facts. Some of those facts are causing some distress it would appear.

For those who can't stand the heat... they shouldn't come into the kitchen IMO.  8(0(*
Incidentally thr police met DP and the police read his statements and the police chose not to make him an official suspect.  Either the police didn’t feel there was enough evidence of wrong doing on his part or the police are colluding in a cover up of his activities. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 19, 2019, 02:46:25 PM
361m on a Sunday evening, is that highbrow enough for you?
https://www.walkhighlands.co.uk/lochlomond/conic-hill.shtml

If you had known me when you came to Glasgow, you'd have loads of desire to return. It's not what you know, it's who you know that counts up here.
Don’t tell me you’re hiking and looking at your phone to have an argument about David Payne at the same time?  Now that is very sad IMO.  Switch off the phone, take a few deep breaths and concentrate on where you are putting each foot.   8(0(*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 19, 2019, 02:48:48 PM
So hiding a body in a bin gets two years suspended, what does carving it up and feeding to pigs get?

Don't know.

You were the one who raised it.

What is the maximum for carving a body up and feeding it to pigs?

The ball is in your court.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 19, 2019, 02:57:33 PM
Getting picked up in 11 minutes and phones don't work at the top of Conic Hill. You won't be there, you'll be stuck on here is the sad part.

I won't be thinking about David Payne when I'm walking about Conic Hill, but you can be sure I'll revisit the two complete different versions of the last time they allege they seen the missing child alive in the near future.

 &^&*% &^&*%

Phones don't work at the top of Conic Hill?

Crikey!

Do you live in a 3rd world country?   *%87
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 19, 2019, 02:58:09 PM
Getting picked up in 11 minutes and phones don't work at the top of Conic Hill. You won't be there, you'll be stuck on here is the sad part.

I won't be thinking about David Payne when I'm walking about Conic Hill, but you can be sure I'll revisit the two complete different versions of the last time they allege they seen the missing child alive in the near future.

 &^&*% &^&*%
The sad thing for me is walking up hills is a thing of the past now since my accident.  Have a good walk, hope it helps to clear the cobwebs. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 19, 2019, 03:03:08 PM
Don't know.

You were the one who raised it.

What is the maximum for carving a body up and feeding it to pigs?

The ball is in your court.
Well what does occultation actually refer to?  In Portugal I mean, it seems to mean something quite different here.  In fact this website's spell check doesn't even recognise the word. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 19, 2019, 03:58:50 PM
Well what does occultation actually refer to?  In Portugal I mean, it seems to mean something quite different here.  In fact this website's spell check doesn't even recognise the word.

Disposing of a body in an illegal manner.  As in chucking it in a wheelie bin.  Or cementing it in a column in the attic.

You raised dismemberment, so spit it out.  What is the penalty for dismemberment of a body and feeding the bits to pigs?

20 years?

The ball is still in your court.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 19, 2019, 04:01:04 PM
I’ve found the Real Crime Profile podcast with Laura Richards, mentioned in MS’s podcast, is a must listen if you are interested in the McCann case.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 19, 2019, 04:02:13 PM
Disposing of a body in an illegal manner.  As in chucking it in a wheelie bin.  Or cementing it in a column in the attic.

You raised dismemberment, so spit it out.  What is the penalty for dismemberment of a body and feeding the bits to pigs?

20 years?

The ball is still in your court.
How should I know, I asked the question not made the claim.  Read back.   Essentially  though it's about disposal of a body.  Why would the penalty be less for one method than another?  Disposal is disposal whether it's in a bin, in a vat of acid, over  cliff, dismembered.  Is one method of "occultation" considered more criminal than another in Portugal? 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 19, 2019, 04:07:13 PM
How should I know, I asked the question not made the claim.  Read back.   Essentially  though it's about disposal of a body.  Why would the penalty be less for one method than another?  Disposal is disposal whether it's in a bin, in a vat of acid, over  cliff, dismembered.  Is one method of "occultation" considered more criminal than another in Portugal?

It's beginning to look like it.  But then The PJ got to beat up Leonor when they had no chance of doing that with Kate McCann.  So perhaps they felt compelled to resort to bribery.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 19, 2019, 04:10:55 PM
Disposing of a body in an illegal manner.  As in chucking it in a wheelie bin.  Or cementing it in a column in the attic.

You raised dismemberment, so spit it out.  What is the penalty for dismemberment of a body and feeding the bits to pigs?

20 years?

The ball is still in your court.

what is absolutely disgusting and indefensible is a suspended sentence for a violent rape...shame on portugal for taht
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 19, 2019, 04:36:14 PM
what is absolutely disgusting and indefensible is a suspended sentence for a violent rape...shame on portugal for taht

Shame on the judge, not the country. Just like shame on the British judge who gave a little girl back to her dad to murder even though she was begged not to....I think she had something to do with the McCann case....ah yes Justice Hogg.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/22/ellie-butler-judge-took-unwarranted-steps-to-reunite-her-with-violent-parents

Shame on Britain.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 19, 2019, 04:55:21 PM
Shame on the judge, not the country. Just like shame on the British judge who gave a little girl back to her dad to murder even though she was begged not to....I think she had something to do with the McCann case....ah yes Justice Hogg.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/22/ellie-butler-judge-took-unwarranted-steps-to-reunite-her-with-violent-parents

Shame on Britain.

I have to agree with this.  It was an horrendous case.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 19, 2019, 04:59:10 PM
I have to agree with this.  It was an horrendous case.

it was ...Justice Hogg has been heavily criticised and is no longer working......but...children are returned to their abusive parents by mistake....how can anyone explain a violent rapist being given a suspended sentence
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 19, 2019, 05:17:36 PM
it was ...Justice Hogg has been heavily criticised and is no longer working......but...children are returned to their abusive parents by mistake....how can anyone explain a violent rapist being given a suspended sentence

I don't understand the Suspended Sentence either.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 19, 2019, 05:21:31 PM
How should I know, I asked the question not made the claim.  Read back.   Essentially  though it's about disposal of a body.  Why would the penalty be less for one method than another?  Disposal is disposal whether it's in a bin, in a vat of acid, over  cliff, dismembered.  Is one method of "occultation" considered more criminal than another in Portugal?

Up to you.

If I could show that a body was dismembered, I would strongly suspect more than occultation.

Remember talking about cutting the body up and feeding it to the pigs?

If not, your memory is short indeed.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 19, 2019, 05:22:49 PM
it was ...Justice Hogg has been heavily criticised and is no longer working......but...children are returned to their abusive parents by mistake....how can anyone explain a violent rapist being given a suspended sentence

There is no justification for either....but to call what Justice Hogg let happen to a poor child, not only let happen but actively facilitated it, as an mistake is little short of appalling.

‘Ellie had been removed from Butler and Gray’s care at seven weeks old after Butler was arrested and later charged and convicted of assaulting her.

His conviction was overturned in the court of appeal in 2010 and he launched a two-year campaign against the courts, Sutton council and Ellie’s grandparents to win the child and her younger sibling back.

“She [Hogg] gave permission for a letter exonerating Ben Butler of causing any harm to Ellie to be circulated to all agencies and said he was victim of a miscarriage of justice,” said Davis.

“This is the most extraordinary element of the whole case. To say it’s surprising is an understatement, it’s an extraordinary step to take. Once that court judgment from Mrs Justice Hogg was in place there was virtually nothing that could be done to affect the outcome for Ellie.”’
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 19, 2019, 05:27:42 PM
what is absolutely disgusting and indefensible is a suspended sentence for a violent rape...shame on portugal for taht

Oh dear.  Bit of Portugal bashing?

Was it in the Mark Saunokonoko podcasts?

Does it have anything to do with Madeleine?

Just wondering.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 19, 2019, 05:28:59 PM
There is no justification for either....but to call what Justice Hogg let happen to a poor child, not only let happen but actively facilitated it, as an mistake is little short of appalling.

‘Ellie had been removed from Butler and Gray’s care at seven weeks old after Butler was arrested and later charged and convicted of assaulting her.

His conviction was overturned in the court of appeal in 2010 and he launched a two-year campaign against the courts, Sutton council and Ellie’s grandparents to win the child and her younger sibling back.

“She [Hogg] gave permission for a letter exonerating Ben Butler of causing any harm to Ellie to be circulated to all agencies and said he was victim of a miscarriage of justice,” said Davis.

“This is the most extraordinary element of the whole case. To say it’s surprising is an understatement, it’s an extraordinary step to take. Once that court judgment from Mrs Justice Hogg was in place there was virtually nothing that could be done to affect the outcome for Ellie.”’

this wsnt one persons fault.....Ellie was with her parents for 11 months...what were the social workers doing..

Butler did not have a guilty verdict against him...the portuguese rapist did
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 19, 2019, 05:31:00 PM
Oh dear.  Bit of Portugal bashing?

Was it in the Mark Saunokonoko podcasts?

Does it have anything to do with Madeleine?

Just wondering.

it has to do with the portuguese justice system
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 19, 2019, 05:32:45 PM
this wsnt one persons fault.....Ellie was with her parents for 11 months...what were the social workers doing..

Butler did not have a guilty verdict against him...the portuguese rapist did

So it was the judge’s fault...so no shame attached to the country.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 19, 2019, 05:33:50 PM
this wsnt one persons fault.....Ellie was with her parents for 11 months...what were the social workers doing..

Butler did not have a guilty verdict against him...the portuguese rapist did

The Standard Social workers were not allowed to visit or interfere because a supposedly specialist organisation was supposedly monitoring the situation.  And Ben Butler just hollered discrimination if anyone tried.
That poor little girl was left to endure an awful eleven months.  And then she was murdered.

I hope Justice Hogg has nightmares.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 19, 2019, 05:37:52 PM
The Standard Social workers were not allowed to visit or interfere because a supposedly specialist organisation was supposedly monitoring the situation.  And Ben Butler just hollered discrimination if anyone tried.
That poor little girl was left to endure an awful eleven months.  And then she was murdered.

I hope Justice Hogg has nightmares.

I dont think its JUST her fault....butlers conviction was overturned ,,, the court deemed him not guilty....in the portuguese case the rapist was found guilty and still not punished ...I presume Justic Hogg thought the situation would be monitored
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 19, 2019, 05:42:17 PM
it has to do with the portuguese justice system

Ah, ducked the questions.

Does that surprise me?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 19, 2019, 05:42:54 PM
Up to you.

If I could show that a body was dismembered, I would strongly suspect more than occultation.

Remember talking about cutting the body up and feeding it to the pigs?

If not, your memory is short indeed.
Of course I remember, but I don’t follow your logic.  Why does dismembering suggest more than occultation whereas hiding in a bin doesn’t?  Remember also that the PJ suspected a body hidden for weeks and then transported in a car which IMO is just as macabre as dismemberment as it involves revisiting thr corpse and handling it weeks after death. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 19, 2019, 05:48:50 PM
I dont think its JUST her fault....butlers conviction was overturned ,,, the court deemed him not guilty....in the portuguese case the rapist was found guilty and still not punished ...I presume Justic Hogg thought the situation would be monitored

So let us take another case...Mr Nessling was found with thousands of images of child abuse on his computer. He received a suspended sentence. What do you think of the system of justice that let that happen ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 19, 2019, 05:50:55 PM
So let us take another case...Mr Nessling was found with thousands of images of child abuse on his computer. He received a suspended sentence. What do you think of the system of justice that let that happen ?
Do you think Nessling’s crime is equal to that of committing a violent rape?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 19, 2019, 05:52:32 PM
Of course I remember, but I don’t follow your logic.  Why does dismembering suggest more than occultation whereas hiding in a bin doesn’t?  Remember also that the PJ suspected a body hidden for weeks and then transported in a car which IMO is just as macabre as dismemberment as it involves revisiting thr corpse and handling it weeks after death.

I don't need to remember what the PJ might or might not have suggested.

All it takes is Madeleine's death, then disposal of the body in a nearby wheelie bin.

For guests, I am NOT asserting this is what happened.

Why did Cipriano get 20 years?  It definitely wasn't for body occultation.

Pony up!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 19, 2019, 05:53:32 PM
So let us take another case...Mr Nessling was found with thousands of images of child abuse on his computer. He received a suspended sentence. What do you think of the system of justice that let that happen ?

that seems to be the norm....s uspended sentence for a violent rape...isnt
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 19, 2019, 05:53:52 PM
I don't need to remember what the PJ might or might not have suggested.

All it takes is Madeleine's death, then disposal of the body in a nearby wheelie bin.

For guests, I am NOT asserting this is what happened.

Why did Cipriano get 20 years?  It definitely wasn't for body occultation.

Pony up!
100% deflection.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 19, 2019, 05:55:06 PM
I don't need to remember what the PJ might or might not have suggested.

All it takes is Madeleine's death, then disposal of the body in a nearby wheelie bin.

For guests, I am NOT asserting this is what happened.

Why did Cipriano get 20 years?  It definitely wasn't for body occultation.

Pony up!
Im not sure they actually told her
it was for admitting to something having been beaten black and blue by the PJ ...as was proven in court..
Joannas fate is unknown

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 19, 2019, 06:00:36 PM
that seems to be the norm....s uspended sentence for a violent rape...isnt

Seems to be the norm ? Does that make it acceptable?

A violent rape, while appalling, is a one victim crime. Viewing images of child abuse perpetrates the abuse of possibly millions of children.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 19, 2019, 06:04:36 PM
100% deflection.

No answer after 3 requests?

What does that tell guests?

 (&^&
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 19, 2019, 06:08:54 PM
Im not sure they actually told her
it was for admitting to something having been beaten black and blue by the PJ ...as was proven in court..
Joannas fate is unknown

Not the Cipriano case on this Madeleine forum again?

Take it to the Cipriano forum.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 19, 2019, 06:09:31 PM
No answer after 3 requests?

What does that tell guests?

 (&^&
Thatyou can’t answer my questions.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 19, 2019, 06:10:40 PM
Seems to be the norm ? Does that make it acceptable?

A violent rape, while appalling, is a one victim crime. Viewing images of child abuse perpetrates the abuse of possibly millions of children.
Does that make Nessling’s crime millions of times worse than violent rape then?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 19, 2019, 06:17:09 PM
Thatyou can’t answer my questions.

 (&^&

For the 4th time, what offence in Portugal attracts a sentence of 20 years, when the maximum for body occultation is just two years.

Stop ducking!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 19, 2019, 06:17:25 PM
Seems to be the norm ? Does that make it acceptable?

A violent rape, while appalling, is a one victim crime. Viewing images of child abuse perpetrates the abuse of possibly millions of children.

come to think of ..it...she probably askesd for it...raped front and back....I think the judge got it just about right...its a mans world after all
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 19, 2019, 06:18:37 PM

Well, maybe she shouldn't have led him on.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 19, 2019, 06:20:31 PM
Well, maybe she shouldn't have led him on.

Im afraid Ive beaten you to it...Im surprised sceptics havent liked your post
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 19, 2019, 06:22:14 PM
Im afraid Ive beaten you to it

Sorry, I've been busy elsewhere.

I'm not even sure who you are talking about.

Was she wearing a short skirt at the time?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 19, 2019, 06:22:18 PM
(&^&

For the 4th time, what offence in Portugal attracts a sentence of 20 years, when the maximum for body occultation is just two years.

Stop ducking!
What relevance has your question got to anything I have asked you today? FYI I have absolutely no idea what offence in Portugal attracts a sentence of 20 years.  Is it being beastly about the Portuguese?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 19, 2019, 06:24:09 PM
What relevance has your question got to anything I have asked you today? FYI I have absolutely no idea what offence in Portugal attracts a sentence of 20 years.  Is it being beastly about the Portuguese?

I dont think they ahve to inform people ...amaral et al are like Doug and Dinsdale Pirraanha...if they said youve done it ...you have
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 19, 2019, 06:24:50 PM
Sorry, I've been busy elsewhere.

I'm not even sure who you are talking about.

Was she wearing a short skirt at the time?

you mean the children in nesslings video
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 19, 2019, 06:25:40 PM
come to think of ..it...she probably askesd for it...raped front and back....I think the judge got it just about right...its a mans world after all

I noticed you dodged my question.

Imagine Madeleine had been abducted by a paedophile who’s behaviour had escalated after being given a suspended sentence for viewing child pornography. Would that be okay...it was just the norm after all ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 19, 2019, 06:26:06 PM
Sorry, I've been busy elsewhere.

I'm not even sure who you are talking about.

Was she wearing a short skirt at the time?
In Portugal if you’re violently raped, your assailant can expect to walk away with a suspended jail sentence.  The good news is you can murder him, chuck his body in a bin where it will be taken to the nearest tip never to be seen again, then you can confess to body occultation and only get a two year suspended sentence.  All good!   8((()*/
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 19, 2019, 06:27:23 PM
What relevance has your question got to anything I have asked you today? FYI I have absolutely no idea what offence in Portugal attracts a sentence of 20 years.  Is it being beastly about the Portuguese?

Lots of relevance.

Thank goodness you have finally answered a simple question!

I thought you might be doing the Jeremy Paxman dance at one point!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 19, 2019, 06:27:33 PM
I noticed you dodged my question.

Imagine Madeleine had been abducted by a paedophile who’s behaviour had escalated after being given a suspended sentence for viewing child pornography. Would that be okay...it was just the norm after all ?
What’s the sentence for downloading child porn in Portugal? 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 19, 2019, 06:31:25 PM
I noticed you dodged my question.

Imagine Madeleine had been abducted by a paedophile who’s behaviour had escalated after being given a suspended sentence for viewing child pornography. Would that be okay...it was just the norm after all ?

I feel you are so out of touch with reality its not worth discussing anything with you...in your opinion its more serious to watch rapes on the net tahn to actually commit the crime
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 19, 2019, 06:33:42 PM
What’s the sentence for downloading child porn in Portugal?

Now that would be interesting to know.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 19, 2019, 06:38:55 PM


https://www.metatube.com/en/videos/47627/family-guy-aquaman/
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 19, 2019, 06:40:28 PM
I feel you are so out of touch with reality its not worth discussing anything with you

How cowardly of you.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 19, 2019, 06:41:17 PM
Now that would be interesting to know.

Let’s hope it’s not the same as in the U.K.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 19, 2019, 06:43:43 PM
How cowardly of you.

LOL...as i said..according to you.....if a man watches 10 rapes on the net...thats more serious than actually committing one
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 19, 2019, 06:45:54 PM
Let’s hope it’s not the same as in the U.K.

I can link to a case where the police gave up counting images after 250,000,a suspended sentence was the punishment.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 19, 2019, 06:48:23 PM
Do you believe there were not enough grounds to make DP an official suspect in this case?

I hope you don't mind, but shall we stick to the facts?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 19, 2019, 06:59:08 PM
LOL...as i said..according to you.....if a man watches 10 rapes on the net...thats more serious than actually committing one

Of course that’s not what I said.

Each shouldn’t be punished with a suspended sentence and that both cases were is a failing of a judge’s judgement and not the justice system of that particular country.

Of course you tend to think more simplistically so perhaps the point was lost on you.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 19, 2019, 07:02:23 PM
Of course that’s not what I said.

Each shouldn’t be punished with a suspended sentence and that both cases were is a failing of a judge’s judgement and not the justice system of that particular country.

Of course you tend to think more simplistically so perhaps the point was lost on you.

nothing you have tried to say has been lost on me ...I think its debatable whether those who view child pornography should be jailed...its not debatable whether violent rapists should be jailed...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 19, 2019, 07:07:11 PM
nothing you have tried to say has been lost on me ...I think its debatable whether those who view child pornography should be jailed...its not debatable whether violent rapists should be jailed...

You think it’s debatable whether those who view child pornography shouldn’t be jailed ? Why do you think it’s debatable? Do you think it’s a victimless crime ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 19, 2019, 07:16:05 PM
nothing you have tried to say has been lost on me ...I think its debatable whether those who view child pornography should be jailed...its not debatable whether violent rapists should be jailed...
Kinell, Davel, are you serious?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 19, 2019, 07:20:27 PM
You think it’s debatable whether those who view child pornography shouldn’t be jailed ? Why do you think it’s debatable? Do you think it’s a victimless crime ?

I think you are viewing the subject too simplistically
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 19, 2019, 07:20:34 PM
nothing you have tried to say has been lost on me ...I think its debatable whether those who view child pornography should be jailed...its not debatable whether violent rapists should be jailed...

I've said some f..ked up things in my time here, but you've just out done anything I've ever said IMO
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 19, 2019, 07:21:23 PM
Kinell, Davel, are you serious?

absolutely...its  a complex issue.....and is debatable...i dont think its debatable whether rapists should be jailed
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 19, 2019, 07:22:42 PM
I've said some f..ked up things in my time here, but you've just out done anything I've ever said IMO

since when did you think your opinion was of any importance
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 19, 2019, 07:23:18 PM
absolutely...its  a complex issue.....and is debatable...i dont think its debatable whether rapists should be jailed

In what way ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 19, 2019, 07:23:32 PM
since when did you think your opinion was of any importance

Since every waking moment.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 19, 2019, 07:25:39 PM
In what way ?

first...because they are not routinely jailed...whereas rapist are
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 19, 2019, 07:26:48 PM
I hope you don't mind, but shall we stick to the facts?
I am discussing the facts.  The fact is that there was clearly insufficient grounds to make DP an offical suspect in this case, a fact you do not wish to acknowledge for some reason.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 19, 2019, 07:28:23 PM
You think it’s debatable whether those who view child pornography shouldn’t be jailed ? Why do you think it’s debatable? Do you think it’s a victimless crime ?
How many new prisons do you think would need to be built to house the thousands upon thousands of people who have been done for looking at child porn? 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 19, 2019, 07:30:34 PM
first...because they are not routinely jailed...whereas rapist are

We are not talking about rapist, we’re talking about why you think paedophiles who view images of child abuse and rape shouldn’t be jailed...over to you.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 19, 2019, 07:31:41 PM
Kinell, Davel, are you serious?
Not only is he serious but his view is backed up by the judicial system in this country.  You may not like that fact but it is a fact that many  adults who are caught with child porn on their computers or phones do not do any time in prison..
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 19, 2019, 07:32:13 PM
How many new prisons do you think would need to be built to house the thousands upon thousands of people who have been done for looking at child porn?

 &%%6

Hopefully dozens.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 19, 2019, 07:33:21 PM
We are not talking about rapist, we’re talking about why you think paedophiles who view images of child abuse and rape shouldn’t be jailed...over to you.
Well done Faithlilly, you have successfully erected a massive strawman to enable all the self-righteous frothers on here to demonise Davel with once again. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 19, 2019, 07:33:46 PM
We are not talking about rapist, we’re talking about why you think paedophiles who view images of child abuse and rape shouldn’t be jailed...over to you.

I think the courts have it about right....over to you
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 19, 2019, 07:34:37 PM
how was it that cipriano admitted her daughter died in an accident and she disposed of the body got 20 yeras
Good question.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 19, 2019, 07:34:59 PM
&%%6

Hopefully dozens.
Whilst we’re at it perhaps we should imprison all drug takers in this country, as they help to fund international crime and cause huge suffering world-wide, including murder, slavery and prostitution.   So how many more prisons do we need now?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 19, 2019, 07:35:05 PM
Well done Faithlilly, you have successfully erected a massive strawman to enable all the self-righteous frothers on here to demonise Davel with once again.

she may think she has... i dont see it...some are jailed ...some are not...its  acomplex issue and difficult to discuss here ...its been discussed before...is it an illness that can be treated...is voluntary chemical castration a better optoin
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 19, 2019, 07:36:33 PM
she may think she has... i dont see it...some are jailed ...some are not...its  acomplex issue and difficult to discuss here ...
Indeed.  Impossible to have a nuanced debate on such a subject, but she is using this in an attempt to make out you’re a paedo apologist.  Seen it time and time again.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 19, 2019, 07:38:29 PM
Indeed.  Impossible to have a nuanced debate on such a subject, but she is using this in an attempt to make out you’re a paedo apologist.  Seen it time and time again.
it seems we have torture apologists ..rapists apologists...im certainly no paedo apologist..prison may not always be the best option....i think its the only option for rapists
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 19, 2019, 07:46:27 PM
it seems we have torture apologists ..rapists apologists...im certainly no paedo apologist..prison may not always be the best option....i think its the only option for rapists

Nobody has said rapists shouldn’t be jailed...lock them up and throw away the key as far as I’m concerned . Individuals who view the abuse of children knowing the horrendous background surrounding those photographs should be punished to the greatest extent that the law will allow and those who think otherwise are simply facilitating further abuse.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 19, 2019, 07:49:31 PM
Nobody has said rapists shouldn’t be jailed...lock them up and throw away the key as far as I’m concerned . Individuals who view the abuse of children knowing the horrendous background surrounding those photographs should be punished to the greatest extent that the law will allow and those who think otherwise are simply facilitating further abuse.


I agree with all of that...all rapists should be jailed but im not sure if that applies to all who view child abuse
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 19, 2019, 07:56:17 PM
Not only is he serious but his view is backed up by the judicial system in this country.  You may not like that fact but it is a fact that many  adults who are caught with child porn on their computers or phones do not do any time in prison..
Nah, it's a moot point. He's suggesting that it's 'complex', not because it's the vagaries of the judicial system that decides whether they actually do. It's not the logistics, it's his opinion.
See the post above.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 19, 2019, 08:01:32 PM
Nah, it's a moot point. He's suggesting that it's 'complex', not because it's the vagaries of the judicial system that decides whether they actually do. It's not the logistics, it's his opinion.
See the post above.

I'm suggesting it's complex because it is complex
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 19, 2019, 08:05:00 PM
I'm suggesting it's complex because it is complex
You know what, I'm not going to debate it; I'm out on this one.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 19, 2019, 08:07:49 PM
You know what, I'm not going to debate it; I'm out on this one.

I think thats a good idea... It's a very emotive subject
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 19, 2019, 08:09:37 PM
I think thats a good idea... It's a very emotive subject

Well it certainly shows people in their true colours, that’s for sure.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 19, 2019, 08:10:29 PM
I think thats a good idea... It's a very emotive subject
Exactly. And very easy to be misconstrued.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 19, 2019, 08:18:36 PM
Well it certainly shows people in their true colours, that’s for sure.
What colour is that exactly?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 19, 2019, 08:23:29 PM
Worth a read for a less hysterical view of the situation.


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/paedophiles-child-sex-images-download-prison-sentences-length-increase-solicitor-general-a8481276.html
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 19, 2019, 08:36:19 PM
Worth a read for a less hysterical view of the situation.


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/paedophiles-child-sex-images-download-prison-sentences-length-increase-solicitor-general-a8481276.html

,Every one who downloads the image should be treated as the rapist imo..
From the article
An NSPCC spokesperson said: “It’s worth remembering that at the centre of every child sexual abuse image is a boy or a girl who has been raped or assaulted in the most horrific manner.

“We need to be absolutely clear, children are abused to fuel this vile online market. They are then re-abused every time the image is downloaded.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 19, 2019, 08:42:30 PM
,Every one who downloads the image should be treated as the rapist imo..
From the article
An NSPCC spokesperson said: “It’s worth remembering that at the centre of every child sexual abuse image is a boy or a girl who has been raped or assaulted in the most horrific manner.

“We need to be absolutely clear, children are abused to fuel this vile online market. They are then re-abused every time the image is downloaded.


And this

“Paedophiles who download indecent images of children could face longer prison sentences under plans backed by the Solicitor General.

Robert Buckland, a Conservative MP and former barrister, said downloading and sharing images of child abuse “is as insidious a crime as direct sexual assault”.

“It facilitates the commission of other offences, it can lead on to more horrendous crimes,” he told the Telegraph. “People are making money out of this, children are being abused.”
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 19, 2019, 08:55:39 PM
And this

“Paedophiles who download indecent images of children could face longer prison sentences under plans backed by the Solicitor General.

Robert Buckland, a Conservative MP and former barrister, said downloading and sharing images of child abuse “is as insidious a crime as direct sexual assault”.

“It facilitates the commission of other offences, it can lead on to more horrendous crimes,” he told the Telegraph. “People are making money out of this, children are being abused.”

Do you think jailing those who view is going to do anything to stop this vile abuse.. Better to use the resources, to go after those committing the abuse
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 19, 2019, 08:57:45 PM
I am discussing the facts.  The fact is that there was clearly insufficient grounds to make DP an offical suspect in this case, a fact you do not wish to acknowledge for some reason.

A fact so obvious that I'm surprised you feel the need to point it out. To recap, the facts are;

Two separate witnesses reported being uneasy about DP. One of them was also unsure about the McCanns and the other one suggested Gerry might have been cmplicit.

Gerry McCann made a couple of comments about DP in his 10th May statement. He suggested that DP checked the McCann children on the evening of the 2nd May and that he left the tennis courts at 6:30 on 3rd to visit Kate, returning at 7 pm.

No-one else thought that DP checked the McCann children, I wonder why Gerry thought he might have?  As far as the half hour visit by DP to 5A on 3rd, Gerry changes that in his arguido statement. He now says DP returned a few minutes after leaving, then went off again until 7 pm. That isn't confirmed by DP or anyone else either. With friends like Gerry you don't need enemies imo.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 19, 2019, 09:02:56 PM
A fact so obvious that I'm surprised you feel the need to point it out. To recap, the facts are;

Two separate witnesses reported being uneasy about DP. One of them was also unsure about the McCanns and the other one suggested Gerry might have been cmplicit.

Gerry McCann made a couple of comments about DP in his 10th May statement. He suggested that DP checked the McCann children on the evening of the 2nd May and that he left the tennis courts at 6:30 on 3rd to visit Kate, returning at 7 pm.

No-one else thought that DP checked the McCann children, I wonder why Gerry thought he might have?  As far as the half hour visit by DP to 5A on 3rd, Gerry changes that in his arguido statement. He now says DP returned a few minutes after leaving, then went off again until 7 pm. That isn't confirmed by DP or anyone else either. With friends like Gerry you don't need enemies imo.
And yet despite all this the police did not feel, nor have they ever felt, it necessary to make DP an official suspect, something which you are unable or unwilling to explain. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 19, 2019, 09:05:05 PM
And this

“Paedophiles who download indecent images of children could face longer prison sentences under plans backed by the Solicitor General.

Robert Buckland, a Conservative MP and former barrister, said downloading and sharing images of child abuse “is as insidious a crime as direct sexual assault”.

“It facilitates the commission of other offences, it can lead on to more horrendous crimes,” he told the Telegraph. “People are making money out of this, children are being abused.”

I think this is totally misguided... I've met a few people who have watched videos of murders by Isis... Extremely repugnant to me..
Are these people, as bad as those who carried out the murder
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 19, 2019, 09:46:58 PM
I think this is totally misguided... I've met a few people who have watched videos of murders by Isis... Extremely repugnant to me..
Are these people, as bad as those who carried out the murder

Bad choice.

ISIS v kiddie porn?

Seriously?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 19, 2019, 09:55:16 PM
Bad choice.

ISIS v kiddie porn?

Seriously?
Ive never seen that expression...have you been hanging around the schools again..the way you talk about it makes me feel a little uncomfortable
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 19, 2019, 09:59:48 PM
Ive never seen that expression...have you been hanging around the schools again

There you go again!  Says it all!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 19, 2019, 10:00:34 PM
There you go again!  Says it all!

just being honest...thats important
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 19, 2019, 10:04:04 PM
just being honest...thats important

If you want to label a fellow member as a paedophile. is it OK if I label you as a donkey?

Hee-haw!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 19, 2019, 10:07:00 PM
If you want to label a fellow member as a paedophile. is it OK if I label you as a donkey?

Hee-haw!

seem to have struck a nerve..I havent accused you of anything you havent admitted to...why so defensive?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 19, 2019, 10:17:18 PM
What is there to explain that you've not already explained exactly.? The police's failure to make David Payne an official suspect does not alter the fact that a woman who had previously been in his company, called the UK police at the time to report her concerns that she felt he may have had an unhealthy sexual interest in the missing child. Nor does Payne not being named a suspect, alter the fact that the file says he told the police two completely different versions of the last time he alleges he seen the missing child alive. The child is still missing and no one has ever been charged. I stick to those facts. I appreciate you may console yourself in the simple fact Mr Payne has never been named an official suspect. That's fine in my book.

IMO anyone who gives the police two completely different versions of the last time they claim they seen a missing child alive should be considered a suspect. That's the way all other investigations work. I don't see why Gerry McCann and David Payne should be any different. But that's right, Gerry was named an official suspect.

You can rest assured David Payne remains one of my unofficial suspects along with his pal Gerry, until such time as I see factual evidence to the contrary.
You are entitled to suspect anyone you want, as your opinion counts for diddly squat it really matters not a jot (hey, I’m a poet, dontcha know it?!)
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 19, 2019, 10:21:50 PM
seem to have struck a nerve..I havent accused you of anything you havent admitted to...why so defensive?

As I have never been a paedophile. you are talking out of the hole in your rear end.

Just how obnoxious do you want to get?

Perhaps you should claim your 20 quid for reporting me to Sun?

Hee-haw little donkey.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 19, 2019, 10:25:29 PM
As I have never been a paedophile. you are talking out of the hole in your rear end.

Just how obnoxious do you want to get?

Perhaps you should claim your 20 quid for reporting me to Sun?

Hee-haw little donkey.

definitely struck a nerve
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 19, 2019, 10:28:33 PM
As I have never been a paedophile. you are talking out of the hole in your rear end.

Just how obnoxious do you want to get?

Perhaps you should claim your 20 quid for reporting me to Sun?

Hee-haw little donkey.
It certainly is obnoxious to be labelled a paedo if you’re not one.  Imagine how DP must feel after 12 years of it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 19, 2019, 10:30:11 PM
Because it counts for diddly squat doesn't prove it to be wrong.

Only someone winning the Scotland Yard, catch that abductor competition will do that.

Good luck on that one.  8(0(*
Luck has nothing to do with it, logic does however.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 19, 2019, 10:31:07 PM
How did you conclude he's not one if you don't mind me asking?
Who SIL?  He just told us he isn’t one, therefore I am quite prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 19, 2019, 10:38:13 PM
You said "It certainly is obnoxious to be labelled a paedo if you’re not one.  Imagine how DP must feel after 12 years of it".

What's SIL got to do with the price of a haggis supper?
I think you haven’t been following the conversation.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 19, 2019, 10:39:37 PM
Good logic with the Scotland Yard, Catch That Abductor Competition then if it makes you feel better.
It’s not a competition so perhaps you should stop viewing it that way?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 19, 2019, 10:48:58 PM
You said "It certainly is obnoxious to be labelled a paedo if you’re not one.  Imagine how DP must feel after 12 years of it".

What's SIL got to do with the price of a haggis supper?

3/6p.

Can I have one?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 19, 2019, 10:50:51 PM
I've chosen to rename Operation Grange, the Catch That Abductor Competition. It was time for a re-branding. Operation Grange has had it's day IMO.

its a portuguese investigation
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 19, 2019, 10:54:30 PM
Pegue Essa Competiçăo Abdutora. Is that better?  8((()*/

not really...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 19, 2019, 10:56:19 PM

I haven't, you're right... but you clearly implied DP had been labelled a paedophile for 12 years and wasn't one. I was asking how you could reach that conclusion.? If you don't know, that's fine.
I reached that conclusion based on everything I have read and heard about the man.  Of course, I may be wrong, but I very much doubt it. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 19, 2019, 10:56:41 PM
Then Catch That Abductor Competition it is.

a investigaçăo portuguesa teve seu dia...would have been better
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 19, 2019, 10:56:49 PM
I've chosen to rename Operation Grange, the Catch That Abductor Competition. It was time for a re-branding. Operation Grange has had it's day IMO.
That’s very silly of you IMO.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 19, 2019, 11:03:40 PM
So you are just guessing that Mrs Gaspar's suspicions were wrong, fair enough. Esther Rantzen took a similar guess about Jimmy Saville - her guess was wrong.   


I think I know exactly why Mrs gaspar made the statement and exactly why she was wrong...Ive seen it before
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 19, 2019, 11:05:01 PM
Of course you can son. But not at that price.

Oh, b****r.  How much do I have to cough up nowadays?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 19, 2019, 11:08:34 PM
You think a lot of things. At the end of the day, your thoughts are just as worthless as mine.  @)(++(*

absolutely right...because all that matters is ...no one is taking these allegations seriously
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 19, 2019, 11:10:03 PM
So you are just guessing that Mrs Gaspar's suspicions were wrong, fair enough. Esther Rantzen took a similar guess about Jimmy Saville - her guess was wrong.   
No, I am not guessing, I am looking at the facts logically and also taking into account the views of the other Gaspar.  Making one allegedly obscene gesture or comment does not mean someone must be a paedophile, it’s quite ridiculous to suggest it does. IMO.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 19, 2019, 11:18:31 PM
Wrong, I'm taking them seriously. Whats more, Mark Saunokonoko ends his international podcasts by telling his listeners that believes there was no abduction and the child died in apartment 5A. That fact is priceless IMO.

sorry...my mistake...no one of any importance is taking these allegations seriously...that includes you and mark...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 19, 2019, 11:36:11 PM
Wrong, I'm taking them seriously. Whats more, Mark Saunokonoko ends his international podcasts by telling his listeners that believes there was no abduction and the child died in apartment 5A. That fact is priceless IMO.
It certainly is priceless  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 20, 2019, 12:07:01 AM
I do know that Mrs Gaspar called the police
in the UK and told them:

"I remember an incident that stayed recorded in my head. I say this in this way, because I have thought numerous times about the incident that I am about to describe since that date.

One night, when we were on holiday, the adults, in other words, the couples that I mentioned were on a patio outside the house where we were staying. We had been eating and drinking.

I was sitting between Dave and Gerry whom I believe were both talking about Madeleine. I don't remember the conversation in its entirety, but it seemed they were discussing a possible scenario. I remember Dave telling Gerry something like ?she?, referring to Madeleine, ?would do this?.

When he mentioned ?this?, Dave was sucking on one of his fingers, pushing it in and out of his mouth, whilst with the other hand he circled his nipple, with a circulating movement over his clothes. This was done in a provocative manner there being an explicit insinuation in relation to what he was saying and doing.

I remember that I was shocked at this, and looked at Gerry, and also at Dave, to see their reactions. I looked around (page 4) to see ?did anyone else hear this, or was it just me?. There was a nervous silence noted in the conversations of all the others and immediately afterwards everyone began talking again.

I never spoke to anyone about this, but I always felt that it was something very strange and that it wasn't something that should be done or said.

Apart from this, I remember that Dave did the same thing once again. When I refer to this, I want to mention again that it was during a conversation, in which he was talking about an imaginary situation, though I could not say precisely what it was about. I believe that he was talking about his own daughter, L., though I'm not certain. He slid one of his fingers in and out of his mouth, while the other hand drew a circle around his nipple in a provocative and sexual manner. I believe that he was referring to the way that L., would behave or would do it.

I remember thinking whether he looked at the girls in a different way from me or from the others. I imagined that maybe he had visited Internet sites related to small children. In short, I thought that he might be interested in child pornography on the internet".
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/Gaspar.htm


Mrs Gaspar MUST have thought it was relevant to the case to call the police and tell them that. That's a fact, not a guess.

Of course Yvonne Martin also suggested something in the same vein :

‘She declares that one of her main aims when she wrote the anonymous letter was for the British police to check the paedophile or child abusers registers and whether any of them were on that list.’

Two professional people, unknown to each other, suggest the same thing about the same man. Must be one of those coincidences again.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 20, 2019, 07:12:37 AM
Of course Yvonne Martin also suggested something in the same vein :

‘She declares that one of her main aims when she wrote the anonymous letter was for the British police to check the paedophile or child abusers registers and whether any of them were on that list.’

Two professional people, unknown to each other, suggest the same thing about the same man. Must be one of those coincidences again.
Was anyone on the list?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 20, 2019, 07:26:43 AM
And yet despite all this the police did not feel, nor have they ever felt, it necessary to make DP an official suspect, something which you are unable or unwilling to explain.

It's not something I need to explain. It's pretty obvious that there was no evidence against him. I'm interested in why he changed his story about the last time he saw Madeleine, why Gerry McCann tried to place him in 5A on 2nd and why he suggested DP spent 30 minutes in 5A on 3d.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 20, 2019, 07:48:38 AM
its a portuguese investigation

Who, unlike OG seem to be, are not limited to investigating an abduction.   
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 20, 2019, 07:57:15 AM
It's not something I need to explain. It's pretty obvious that there was no evidence against him. I'm interested in why he changed his story about the last time he saw Madeleine, why Gerry McCann tried to place him in 5A on 2nd and why he suggested DP spent 30 minutes in 5A on 3d.
And yet you simply cannot accept human error (either in the telling or the transcribing) as an explanation.  Or can you?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 20, 2019, 07:58:03 AM
Who, unlike OG seem to be, are not limited to investigating an abduction.
And yet last we heard (from the horse’s orifice, Amaral) they were investigating a German paedo. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 20, 2019, 08:06:51 AM
By attaching any significance to the Gaspar statement and the alleged changes in DP’s account, sceptics are of course entertaining the idea that Madeleine was abused by a paedo, aided and abetted by her parents and it was this that caused her death, not falling off a sofa.   &%%6
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 20, 2019, 08:51:26 AM
And yet last we heard (from the horse’s orifice, Amaral) they were investigating a German paedo.

He said OG were going to use a German as a scapegoat, I don't think he mentioned the PJ.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 20, 2019, 08:57:23 AM
So either Gaspar got it wrong or Maddie was being abused by her father and friends with the full knowledge of the whole group...and he didn't care who knew about it... Then the police have decided to ignore it... This seems to be what sceptics believe
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 20, 2019, 09:29:02 AM
This sceptic is entertaining the facts that the second last man to see the child alive was reported to police as being a possible paedophile and he went on, along with the child's father to tell the police two completely different versions of the last time they allege they seen the child alive. I'm entertaining the facts...and your responses to those facts are entertaining the Monkey.

Please give a link to where it states that this person was 'reported to police'.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 20, 2019, 09:34:07 AM
And yet you simply cannot accept human error (either in the telling or the transcribing) as an explanation.  Or can you?

Why should I acceot it? According to some, this case is full of people unable to be trusted to remember, write, read or translate anything correctly. I see no evidence of that, it's pure speculation imo.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: kizzy on May 20, 2019, 09:36:48 AM
I have always thought it really strange - how the mcns trusted everyone in their group in the first place.

Especially when it is commonly known - abduction is usually from close friends family.

Especially when the whole group knew kids were left alone - yet for some reason did not question any of them
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 20, 2019, 09:47:20 AM
By attaching any significance to the Gaspar statement and the alleged changes in DP’s account, sceptics are of course entertaining the idea that Madeleine was abused by a paedo, aided and abetted by her parents and it was this that caused her death, not falling off a sofa.   &%%6

For the record, this sceptic has not suggested anything of the kind. That's your interpretation, not mine.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 20, 2019, 09:49:11 AM
This thread has taken a turn and is sailing perilously close to libel which I must remind includes innuendo.  Please cease immediately or don't be surprised to find offensive posts deleted.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 20, 2019, 09:59:59 AM
I have always thought it really strange - how the mcns trusted everyone in their group in the first place.

Especially when it is commonly known - abduction is usually from close friends family.

Especially when the whole group knew kids were left alone - yet for some reason did not question any of them

Their friends were also sure that the parents weren't involved, despite some of them not knowing them very well.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 20, 2019, 10:03:02 AM
Their friends were also sure that the parents weren't involved, despite some of them not knowing them very well.

How many of them didn't know The McCanns very well?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 20, 2019, 10:10:39 AM
Years ago one of the facebook anti's sent a message to the Police about the Gaspar statement this is the reply -

I can give you my reassurance that I am fully aware of the matters you have identified within the statements on the internet attributed to Dr Gaspar and this has been fully investigated


So fully investigated,  they probably asked him what he had meant he told them and that was that.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: John on May 20, 2019, 10:13:26 AM
Further to Brietta's warning, I remind all posters not to make unfounded allegations but rather explore the known facts. TY
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: kizzy on May 20, 2019, 10:22:49 AM
How many of them didn't know The McCanns very well?

This was my point - yet they trusted them all not to be involved
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 20, 2019, 10:24:11 AM
Years ago one of the facebook anti's sent a message to the Police about the Gaspar statement this is the reply -

I can give you my reassurance that I am fully aware of the matters you have identified within the statements on the internet attributed to Dr Gaspar and this has been fully investigated


So fully investigated,  they probably asked him what he had meant he told them and that was that.

When did they switch their communication strategy from response to non-response?

Does your tale relate to OG days or does it date back to LP days?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 20, 2019, 10:29:08 AM
This was my point - yet they trusted them all not to be involved

You haven't answered my question.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: kizzy on May 20, 2019, 10:42:20 AM
You haven't answered my question.

Well most of them were only acquaintances - I think DP was there only close friend.

But all the same, you would have thought all the more - they would have been suspicious of the group but they weren't. odd that as you would trust no one IMO
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 20, 2019, 10:48:45 AM
Well most of them were only acquaintances - I think DP was there only close friend.

But all the same, you would have thought all the more - they would have been suspicious of the group but they weren't. odd that as you would trust no one IMO

The day on which I trust no one would be a very sad day for me.  And at what point in time did any of them have the opportunity to abduct or harm their daughter?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 20, 2019, 10:50:19 AM
This thread has taken a turn and is sailing perilously close to libel which I must remind includes innuendo.  Please cease immediately or don't be surprised to find offensive posts deleted.

You appear to have taken exception to something I said. In my opinion I wasn't libelling anyone I was simply womdering why people would give evidence to the police which cast doubt upon one of their friends.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 20, 2019, 10:53:10 AM
You haven't answered my question.

Perhaps because you asked me the question.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 20, 2019, 10:56:45 AM
You appear to have taken exception to something I said. In my opinion I wasn't libelling anyone I was simply womdering why people would give evidence to the police which cast doubt upon one of their friends.

The last couple of pages of this Thread are awful.  I took one look at it this morning and thought, "b....r that.  I haven't got the time or the patience."

You all stand by what you have said without an iota of proof.  I am disgusted.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: kizzy on May 20, 2019, 11:02:50 AM
The day on which I trust no one would be a very sad day for me.  And at what point in time did any of them have the opportunity to abduct or harm their daughter?

I'm talking about if your daughter had been abducted-  who would you trust.

As for what opportunity did they have - it is often said there could have had been an accomplice.

What better than an inside job imo - anyway I don't believe Maddie was abducted.

My point was why did they trust everyone around them - not to be involved.

Even to the point leaving twins next day at the creche.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 20, 2019, 11:23:30 AM
The last couple of pages of this Thread are awful.  I took one look at it this morning and thought, "b....r that.  I haven't got the time or the patience."

You all stand by what you have said without an iota of proof.  I am disgusted.

I would have thought you would have been disgusted that people would cast aspersions on one of their friends. Especially when that friend had reportedly just had his daighter anducted.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 20, 2019, 11:27:45 AM
The last couple of pages of this Thread are awful.  I took one look at it this morning and thought, "b....r that.  I haven't got the time or the patience."

You all stand by what you have said without an iota of proof.  I am disgusted.

The subject isn’t a nice one but it happens, and sometimes in the most unlikely situations, and we all need to be grown ups about it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 20, 2019, 11:34:48 AM
When did they switch their communication strategy from response to non-response?

Does your tale relate to OG days or does it date back to LP days?

LP days.   It is not a tale it is the truth it was posted on twitter years ago.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 20, 2019, 11:48:50 AM
I would have thought you would have been disgusted that people would cast aspersions on one of their friends. Especially when that friend had reportedly just had his daighter anducted.

In that case, you don't know me very well.

Katerina Gaspar's statement was Privileged Information, Protected By Law.  It should never have been released.  It is a miss mash of incoherence and supposition which accuses Gerald McCann as much as it accuses David Payne.

However, I have no doubt that it was given with good intention and a genuine desire to help.  Why would I be disgusted by that?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 20, 2019, 11:50:30 AM
The day on which I trust no one would be a very sad day for me.  And at what point in time did any of them have the opportunity to abduct or harm their daughter?

I would class Matthew Oldfield's performance as woefully incompetent.

He offered to check on the McCann children at 9.30.  Then he failed to check on Madeleine.  Plus he failed to notice the state of the shutter.

He was despatched to have the police called at 10.15.  He failed to ensure they were called.  Then it appears he failed to inform the group that the police had not been summoned.  In turn this appears to have led Gerry to turn down Mrs Fenn's offer.  Which in turn led the police to head for Odiaxere for a security company alert.

From this pile of poo, we are reduced to relying on Gerry, for his check at 9.10 or so, and Kate, around 10pm.

Not good for establishing the truth of what happened to Madeleine McCann, is it?

Do you want to move onto another 'suspect'?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 20, 2019, 11:51:13 AM
The subject isn’t a nice one but it happens, and sometimes in the most unlikely situations, and we all need to be grown ups about it.

Grown Ups about what?  Supposition and Innuendo?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 20, 2019, 11:51:34 AM
The subject isn’t a nice one but it happens, and sometimes in the most unlikely situations, and we all need to be grown ups about it.

It most certainly does happen but perhaps some need to be grown up enough not to suggest a named person is a paedophile without the slightest proof.
I agree with Eleanor , it is disgusting.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 20, 2019, 11:51:39 AM
In that case, you don't know me very well.

Katerina Gaspar's statement was Privileged Information, Protected By Law.  It should never have been released.  It is a miss mash of incoherence and supposition which accuses Gerald McCann as much as it accuses David Payne.

However, I have no doubt that it was given with good intention and a genuine desire to help.  Why would I be disgusted by that?

Which may be why LP never sent it immediately... What's, the law in the UK if police release details of someone accused of paedophilia but hasn't been charged or convicted
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 20, 2019, 12:00:55 PM
Which may be why LP never sent it immediately... What's, the law in the UK if police release details of someone accused of paedophilia but hasn't been charged or convicted

They likely get to sue The Police.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 20, 2019, 12:01:39 PM
LP days.   It is not a tale it is the truth it was posted on twitter years ago.

Thank you.   *&(+(+

I was not using the world tale to suggest you were incorrect.  I had no interest whatsoever in the case that long ago.

Hmmm.  Was this information in the public domain in LP days?  Did LP use Twitter for such responses?  If not, presumably the source is merely a Twitter user, with no official status?

Just thinking out loud.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 20, 2019, 12:19:02 PM
In that case, you don't know me very well.

Katerina Gaspar's statement was Privileged Information, Protected By Law.  It should never have been released.  It is a miss mash of incoherence and supposition which accuses Gerald McCann as much as it accuses David Payne.

However, I have no doubt that it was given with good intention and a genuine desire to help.  Why would I be disgusted by that?

So it's OK to accuse a friend without any evidence so long as it's done with good intentions? OK......
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 20, 2019, 12:24:23 PM
So it's OK to accuse a friend without any evidence so long as it's done with good intentions? OK......

It was a Privileged  Statement of Katerina Gaspar's thoughts.  It was for The Police to pursue it in whatever way they saw fit.  Do you seriously not understand that?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 20, 2019, 12:26:56 PM
It most certainly does happen but perhaps some need to be grown up enough not to suggest a named person is a paedophile without the slightest proof.
I agree with Eleanor , it is disgusting.

Has anyone accused a named person or have people been discussing accusations made by others? There is a difference.   
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 20, 2019, 12:29:07 PM
Has anyone accused a named person or have people been discussing accusations made by others? There is a difference.

I don't believe I used the word accused!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 20, 2019, 01:03:25 PM
Which may be why LP never sent it immediately... What's, the law in the UK if police release details of someone accused of paedophilia but hasn't been charged or convicted

Was it part of LP's remit to withhold evidence from the PJ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 20, 2019, 01:07:30 PM
Was it part of LP's remit to withhold evidence from the PJ?

I've explained what MAY have happened...

Releasing accusations of paedophilia could lead to disasterous consequences... People have been killed for being suspected of this
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 20, 2019, 01:19:04 PM
Thank you.   *&(+(+

I was not using the world tale to suggest you were incorrect.  I had no interest whatsoever in the case that long ago.

Hmmm.  Was this information in the public domain in LP days?  Did LP use Twitter for such responses?  If not, presumably the source is merely a Twitter user, with no official status?

Just thinking out loud.

I don't know how this person communicated with LP or how LP communicated back,  just that this person said she had written to LP about the Gaspar statements and that was the reply she had been given.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 20, 2019, 01:28:29 PM
I don't know how this person communicated with LP or how LP communicated back,  just that this person said she had written to LP about the Gaspar statements and that was the reply she had been given.

OK.  Thank you.   *&(+(+
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 20, 2019, 01:32:00 PM
It was a Privileged  Statement of Katerina Gaspar's thoughts.  It was for The Police to pursue it in whatever way they saw fit.  Do you seriously not understand that?

Tjat's probably how it works in the UK, but we're not discussing a UK case, we're discussing a Portuguese one. Similar accusations were made against Robert Murat and the details were released along with the actons taken by the PJ.

The role of the UK police was to assist the PJ, not to decide which evidence the PJ should receive imo.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 20, 2019, 01:54:44 PM
Tjat's probably how it works in the UK, but we're not discussing a UK case, we're discussing a Portuguese one. Similar accusations were made against Robert Murat and the details were released along with the actons taken by the PJ.

The role of the UK police was to assist the PJ, not to decide which evidence the PJ should receive imo.

UK police have to abide by UK law
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 20, 2019, 02:14:21 PM
UK police have to abide by UK law

Which UK law authorises UK police to withhold evidence from a foreign investigation?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 20, 2019, 02:23:00 PM
Where in UK law does it say the police have to suppress statements from the Portuguese regarding what one would normally consider, depraved concerns about the second last man to see the child alive?

Where are the investigative benefits for the missing child in any of that?

It's in the files... The reason some things were withheld ..
It's EU law... Right to a private life... The Portuguese don't seem to care
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 20, 2019, 02:32:37 PM
UK police have to abide by UK law

So they drove on the LHS of the road whilst here?

I've got a photo somewhere from when Portugal switched from driving on the LHS to driving on the RHS.  Want to see it?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 20, 2019, 02:43:08 PM
Where in that heap of junk you've posted does it say anything about the UK police having any right to withhold information from investigators for five months?

I'll ask you again, where are the investigative benefits for the missing child in that approach?

Evidence collected by UK police Re UK citizens under UK law.. Investigated by UK police in the uk
I can see exactly why  thr police may not want to release them... I don't see how it hindered the search
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 20, 2019, 03:17:28 PM
You've still not showed us where UK law says that UK police should withhold evidence given in direct relation to a Portuguese investigation for five months.

Davel: "its a portuguese investigation".

So it's a Portuguese investigation according to you that only UK police can investigate certain evidence.. and not say a word to the Portuguese for five months about this evidence. OK then, fair doos.

Where are the investigative benefits for the missing child in any of that.

I've explained everything... Next... Where are the Gaspar original statements and what do they say... Not the ones translated into Portuguese
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 20, 2019, 03:27:11 PM
From the files..


It was equally recognised that this material would be provided by the police and legal UK authorities on the basis of the full understanding that this was confidential material, given that it contains the identification of names, last known addresses and other details relating to sex offenders, whether they were individuals who had already been condemned or just suspects.

The divulgation of this material would obviously have an impact on rights of individual privacy and this would have negative effects on police work in general, given the fact that police Intelligence which is maintained exclusively of police purposes and for criminal investigation, would enter the public domain, when this material should never be accessible to the general public.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 20, 2019, 03:34:59 PM
I can't read Portuguese, that's why I comment on the ones written in English.

Next... How exactly can you conclude what hindered the mythical search if the child is still missing and we don't know what happened to her.?

The ninth series of the Catch That Abductor Competition is about to begin.. Go and stock up on popcorn sonny boy. Maybe they'll be able to tell us what hindered the search.

Thr one in English is a translation of another translation... We don't have the Gaspars, actual statements
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 20, 2019, 03:59:43 PM
The ones we do have will do for me. If you don't like them, that's just too bad for you, as far as I'm concerned.
I don't think they are of any importance
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 20, 2019, 04:23:21 PM
It most certainly does happen but perhaps some need to be grown up enough not to suggest a named person is a paedophile without the slightest proof.
I agree with Eleanor , it is disgusting.

Two professional woman suggested that that named person’s behaviour suggested that he either displayed or was involved in behaviour of a socially unacceptable nature. These statements were included in the files and made public. It is therefore acceptable for the public, us, to discuss them.

If the named person doesn’t want his name to be bandied about in such a manner can I respectfully suggest that he chooses the friends that he goes on holiday with more carefully.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 20, 2019, 05:03:52 PM
Two professional woman suggested that that named person’s behaviour suggested that he either displayed or was involved in behaviour of a socially unacceptable nature. These statements were included in the files and made public. It is therefore acceptable for the public, us, to discuss them.

If the named person doesn’t want his name to be bandied about in such a manner can I respectfully suggest that he chooses the friends that he goes on holiday with more carefully.

These two women had what could be best described as zero evidence that this man was a paedophile.
It is utterly shameful that he has being discussed" as a possible paedophile by you and others when you have no evidence that he is.
Have you no concern for his children?
I find it shameful.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 20, 2019, 05:14:58 PM
We do have concrete evidence that this man, who was the second last man to claim he seen the child alive gave the police two completely different versions of that critical event. We also have proof that the UK police suppressed evidence about this man for five months.

It depends on what one wants find shameful IMO.

Who is " we" ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 20, 2019, 05:15:14 PM
We have no proof that Amaral didn't receive these statements in amongst the mess he so obviously left behind when he was sacked.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 20, 2019, 05:18:51 PM
Anyone who reads the police files. It's not just me that's read them.

Yes, I'm sure NSY  have read the police.files too !!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 20, 2019, 05:25:53 PM
The email from DC Marshal containing the statements is dated October 24, 2007 .

Amaral was removed October 2nd 2007. How you work that one out?

Please could we have sight of this Email?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 20, 2019, 05:27:04 PM
So you understand who "we" is now. That's good.  8((()*/

You and NSY.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 20, 2019, 05:33:25 PM
If you're happy with that understanding -  8((()*/

My state of happiness is not.influenced by anything posted here.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 20, 2019, 05:44:40 PM
Are you sure about that?

Erngath: "I find it shameful".

Does finding things shameful really not affect your state of happiness?  Good on you.  8((()*/

No it doesn't have any bearing on my state of happiness.
Lots of aspects of some human behaviour I do find shameful.
That is it brings shame on those behaving in an unpleasant manner.

Now if this shameful behaviour was being carried out by any of my family, then that would affect my happiness.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 20, 2019, 05:48:43 PM
We have no proof that Amaral didn't receive these statements in amongst the mess he so obviously left behind when he was sacked.

We have no proof that he left a mess behind either. Was he in charge of filing?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 20, 2019, 05:51:17 PM
What's your view of parental behavior that entails leaving a very distressed child unattended for an hour and fifteen minutes. Do you any aspects of that behavior shameful for instance?   

I don't believe she was left for an hour and a quarter
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 20, 2019, 05:52:04 PM
What's your view of parental behavior that entails leaving a very distressed child unattended for an hour and fifteen minutes. Do you view any aspects of that behavior shameful for instance?   

100% deflection.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 20, 2019, 05:54:41 PM
I don't believe she was left for an hour and a quarter

The AG did.

What happened IYO?

Was Mrs Fenn hallucinating?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 20, 2019, 05:59:08 PM
OK don't answer the question then, that's fine.

Had to use that little post.
Saw it yesterday.
Twas directed to me and thought there''s one to use. @)(++(*
Are you asking me which is more shameful your totally without evidence assertion or the fact that a man is being suggested as a paedophile without the slightest proof.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 20, 2019, 06:03:48 PM
Who on here has done that I'll ask you?

Done.what?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 20, 2019, 06:04:09 PM
She also refers to the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22.30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger. Apart from the crying that continued for approximately one hour and fifteen minutes, and which got louder and more expressive, the child shouted ?Daddy, Daddy?, the witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below. At about 23.45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm

Who cares what you and Erngath believe in this instance, I believe Mrs Fenn.

And who cares what you believe
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 20, 2019, 06:05:32 PM
The AG did.

What happened IYO?

Was Mrs Fenn hallucinating?

Possibly
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 20, 2019, 06:15:12 PM
Suggested a man is a paedophile without the slightest proof you said. So I'll ask you again. Who on here has done that I ask you?

I believe you did.
However if you are now backtracking on your earlier posts then that is good.
Perhaps be more careful in your posts where you did seem to be suggesting there was proof that this man who you named is a paedophile.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 20, 2019, 06:31:06 PM
Course you can. https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/Gaspar.htm

The Gaspar statements are both dated 16th May 2007. Over five months earlier.
Weren't they posted, as opposed to emailed?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 20, 2019, 06:32:20 PM
Then you'll have a cite for this interesting revelation you are revealing. Won't you?

I have suggested (not Mrs Gaspar according to you) that a man is a paedophile without the slightest proof you said.

Let's be having some proof for your own beliefs?

That's good to know that you don't believe that this man is a paedophile.
This man's name has been bandied about for almost twelve years on various forms .
Some of the posts have been dreadful and I do hope his children have been given some support  in preparation for what they may find on the internet.

As all of this has been on the files for years and NSY must be aware of this, then it can be assumed that this has been considered and acted upon as deemed necessary.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 20, 2019, 06:33:03 PM
OK.  Thank you.   *&(+(+

The person  communicated with LP by e.mail, so I presume LP e.mailed back.   That was only part of the message they sent.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 20, 2019, 06:35:44 PM
I take the Gaspar statement with a pinch of salt.   1.  Because she was sitting between the two men who were chatting.  2.  She didn't know what the conversation was about  and 3. She was just shocked and horrified about one of the men,   the one she didn't know,  surely you would think as they were both conversing together she would be shocked about both of them?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 20, 2019, 06:46:27 PM
He said OG were going to use a German as a scapegoat, I don't think he mentioned the PJ.
Do you have a cite?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 20, 2019, 06:47:19 PM
I take the Gaspar statement with a pinch of salt.   1.  Because she was sitting between the two men who were chatting.  2.  She didn't know what the conversation was about  and 3. She was just shocked and horrified about one of the men,   the one she didn't know,  surely you would think as they were both conversing together she would be shocked about both of them?
Twice?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 20, 2019, 06:47:56 PM
Why should I acceot it? According to some, this case is full of people unable to be trusted to remember, write, read or translate anything correctly. I see no evidence of that, it's pure speculation imo.
Why should you accept it??  Because “anything is possible” isn’t it? 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 20, 2019, 06:49:10 PM
For the record, this sceptic has not suggested anything of the kind. That's your interpretation, not mine.
Do you attach any significance to the Gaspar statement as far as Madeleine’s disappearance is concerned?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 20, 2019, 06:57:46 PM
Why should you accept it??  Because “anything is possible” isn’t it?

It doesn''t mean I have to accept your speculations as facts.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 20, 2019, 06:58:55 PM
It doesn''t mean I have to accept your speculations as facts.
I didn’t ask you to, merely to consider that it is a perfectly plausible explanation, unless you can tell me why you rule it put?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 20, 2019, 07:00:37 PM
Strange how the Social Worker described the person as having scars on his face.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 20, 2019, 07:17:21 PM
Strange how the Social Worker described the person as having scars on his face.
Do you have a life sized close up of David Payne's face?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 20, 2019, 07:24:46 PM
I care as much about David Payne as you do about Mr Amaral. His name is in the file, end of.
I don't know if Mrs Gaspar's concerns about him were genuine or not but I do know she harbored those concerns enough to report them to the police. I also do know that the police file says he gave the police two completely different versions of the last time he claims to have seen the child, who is still missing btw, alive,



It was only you that said that I don't believe he's a paedophile, I don't know if he is, so why would anyone be able to say that on my behalf. You tell me?

I comment on what we do know. I'll leave you to comment on what we don't. I'm fine with that.


How long did she wait to report her concerns to the police?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 20, 2019, 07:35:29 PM
They were recorded 12 days after the PJ arrived at the scene. It took the UK police a further 160 days to pass them on to the Portuguese police.

Priority policing, UK style.

No, when did the incident occur which caused her concern?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 20, 2019, 07:38:52 PM

How long did she wait to report her concerns to the police?
Would it make any difference?   In the file it states the statement was taken on the "Date of Statement: 16/05/2007"  Now that quicker than the Smith sightings isn't it?  "26th  May 2007"  Yes.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 20, 2019, 07:42:06 PM
No, when did the incident occur which caused her concern?
"In September of 2005"
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 20, 2019, 07:42:17 PM
Read the file. It will tell you in there.
You asked me how long it took her to report her concerns.. and I told you.

No!
The incident she was concerned about and which caused her to believe that at least one child was being abused occurred some time before, quite a wee while before.
I don't know about you but if I was in the company of anyone who I believed was sexually abusing a child, I would be reporting my concerns to someone within 24 hours.
So when did this alleged incident occur?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 20, 2019, 07:42:49 PM
"In September of 2005"

Thank you.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 20, 2019, 07:45:01 PM
Read the file. It will tell you in there.
You asked me how long it took her to report her concerns.. and I told you.

So when the PJ received these statements... What did they do
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 20, 2019, 07:51:07 PM
I don't care about what you don't know, it's what I do know, that I care about.

Here's another fact you're missing: It was Madeleine going missing on May 3rd that really triggered Mrs Gaspar's previous concerns enough to call the police about them and have them recorded 12 days after the PJ arrived.

She believed a child/ children was/were being sexually abused in September 2005 and waited until one of those children disappeared in May 2007  before reporting her concern.
Wouldn't you have mentioned to someone in authority your concern within a day or two?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 20, 2019, 07:53:52 PM
She believed a chilld/ children was/were being sexually abused in September 2005 and waited until one of those children disappeared in May 2007  before reporting her concern.
Wouldn't you have mentioned to someone in authority your concern within a day or two?
Right up until a child goes missing and he's the last known external witness to see her alive, it's just a really creepy and weird man who you wouldn't trust to sell pencils from a cup in the car park.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 20, 2019, 07:58:12 PM
Right up until a child goes missing and he's the last known external witness to see her alive, it's just a really creepy and weird man who you wouldn't trust to sell pencils from a cup in the car park.

I possibly see it from a different perspective.
If I saw an incident which I believed to indicate the sexual abuse of a child, as she believd she did, there is absolutely no way I would not report my concern to someone within a few days.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 20, 2019, 08:00:15 PM
You just don't get it IMO. It doesn't matter what me and you would have done, we were not in Majorca with the Paynes to know. It's what Mrs Gaspar, who was in Majorca, did do that matters as far as the facts are concerned.

She waited such a long time to report her belief that a child/ children were being sexually abused, in her opinion.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 20, 2019, 08:04:36 PM
Do you attach any significance to the Gaspar statement as far as Madeleine’s disappearance is concerned?

It depends what you mean by sigbificance.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 20, 2019, 08:06:37 PM
It depends what you mean by sigbificance.

significance
/sɪɡˈnɪfɪk(ə)ns/
noun
1.
the quality of being worthy of attention; importance.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 20, 2019, 08:12:17 PM
The email from DC Marshal containing the statements is dated October 24, 2007 .

Amaral was removed October 2nd 2007. How you work that one out?

Quite simple really, the first thing Rebelo had to do on inheriting the case was to play catch up with the neglected paperwork, the neglected evidence and neglected witnesses he inherited from his predecessor in the case, Amaral.


Two things ...
First ... why was Paiva chasing up on missing documentation if the PJ didn't already know of its existence?
Second ... please give a cite to the the original email from DC Marshall
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 20, 2019, 08:13:25 PM
But your, or my perspective cannot alter the fact Mrs Gaspar called the police only after learning of Madeleine's disappearance. She done so to report concerns she had from a previous holiday with the David Payne. That's the facts.

I have not got a perspective on Mrs Gaspar's actions, because I was not in Majorca to witness the behavior from David Payne that troubled Mrs Gaspar. How you can have one on such events when you were not there to witness them, is frankly, beyond me.

No I wasn't there , nor were you.
She was!
She reports she witnessed an incident which caused  her concern, but not enough concern to bother mentioning her concern for over one and a half years.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 20, 2019, 08:15:04 PM
I possibly see it from a different perspective.
If I saw an incident which I believed to indicate the sexual abuse of a child, as she believd she did, there is absolutely no way I would not report my concern to someone within a few days.
I see what you're saying and, as I've said before, I'd have smashed his teeth in right there and then if he'd have done what was reported. Which lend credence to the 'two drunk blokes joking' theory. She may have got the wrong end of the stick and been a bit of an old prude or whatever.....but not twice.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 20, 2019, 08:15:11 PM
Mrs Gaspar gave them significance. She was there, we weren't.

Facts, facts and more damn facts.

Not enough significance  apparently!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 20, 2019, 08:16:53 PM
Course you can. https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/Gaspar.htm

The Gaspar statements are both dated 16th May 2007. Over five months earlier.

I'm following on behind so please forgive me if you have already dealt with this.  That is not the cite requested by Eleanor or later by me. We both have requested to see the photocopy of the original email.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 20, 2019, 08:19:18 PM
Mrs Gaspar gave them significance. She was there, we weren't.

Facts, facts and more damn facts.
As Dr Gaspar hasn’t gone to the papers to express her concerns we can deduce that she now believes she was mistaken (just employing some Spam Logic there). 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 20, 2019, 08:20:20 PM
I'm following on behind so please forgive me if you have already dealt with this.  That is not the cite requested by Eleanor or later by me. We both have requested to see the photocopy of the original email.

Yes, there is another, but I wouldn't know where to find it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 20, 2019, 08:20:39 PM
She reported them after learning of Madeleine's disappearance. Those are the facts.. and like you say, she was there, we weren't.

If you don't like the heat.. the kitchen isn't the place for you IMO.

I'm in the kitchen at the moment.
Quite comfortably so!

She should have reported the incident within a day or so if she really had any concern that toddlers were being sexually abused.
Obviously she wasn't too concerned that this was the case.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 20, 2019, 08:21:20 PM
As Dr Gaspar hasn’t gone to the papers to express her concerns we can deduce that she now believes she was mistaken (just employing some Spam Logic there).

Did Dr Gaspar have previous form in running to the press?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 20, 2019, 08:27:22 PM
I'm in the kitchen at the moment.
Quite comfortably so!

She should have reported the incident within a day or so if she really had any concern that toddlers were being sexually abused.
Obviously she wasn't too concerned that this was the case.
Perhaps she's wracked with guilt as a result of not alerting the authorities sooner. But she can take some solace in the fact that there's no shame in making the connection upon learning of DP being the last external witness to see her alive.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 20, 2019, 08:27:52 PM
Did Dr Gaspar have previous form in running to the press?
No, and shame on her  if she truly believes a paedo is practising medicine and allowed to live at home with his kids.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 20, 2019, 08:30:03 PM
No, and shame on her  if she truly believes a paedo is practising medicine and allowed to live at home with his kids.
Shame on her for reporting it to the police? Took some balls in my opinion.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 20, 2019, 08:31:19 PM
What she should have done is a matter of opinion. What she did do is a matter of fact.

She was concerned enough to call the old bill about her concerns that the second last man to claim to see the child alive may have had an unhealthy interest in young children. When was last time you were concerned enough to call the old bill about that?

Yes, it's  a matter of fact that she had suspicions that one if not two toddlers were being sexually abused by one if not two men and she waited a year and a half to voice her concern.
Don't you find that a little worrying?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 20, 2019, 08:32:32 PM
For God's sake... cites, cites and more damn cites.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/Gaspar.htm

Cites have been requested to support what you are posting.  Please provide them as per forum protocol, thank you.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 20, 2019, 08:32:47 PM
Shame on her for reporting it to the police? Took some balls in my opinion.
No, shame on her for not insisting that the police take the man’s children away and the GMC his license to practice medicine.  She could have gome to the tabs and done a right number on him, why didn’t she?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 20, 2019, 08:33:05 PM
You better believe it!
Doctors snitching on doctors. Omerta and all that.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 20, 2019, 08:34:57 PM
Perhaps she's wracked with guilt as a result of not alerting the authorities sooner. But she can take some solace in the fact that there's no shame in making the connection upon learning of DP being the last external witness to see her alive.

She should be wracked with guilt if she suspected one if not two toddlers were being sexually abused by one if not two men and she managed to live with that worry and concern for over a year and a half.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 20, 2019, 08:36:46 PM
Perhaps she's wracked with guilt as a result of not alerting the authorities sooner. But she can take some solace in the fact that there's no shame in making the connection upon learning of DP being the last external witness to see her alive.
Do you seriously think Gaspar felt the McCanns were complicit in Madeleine’s disappearance?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 20, 2019, 08:37:04 PM
No, shame on her for not insisting that the police take the man’s children away and the GMC his license to practice medicine.  She could have gome to the tabs and done a right number on him, why didn’t she?
She could have walked in, oscillated her index finger in her mouth and circled her nipple with the other while she told them.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 20, 2019, 08:38:29 PM
She should be wracked with guilt if she suspected one if not two toddlers were being sexually abused by one if not two men and she managed to live with that worry and concern for over a year and a half.
As I said, she might be. But she had the fortitude to intervene once the connection was made, which is more than most would.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 20, 2019, 08:40:09 PM
She believed a child/ children was/were being sexually abused in September 2005 and waited until one of those children disappeared in May 2007  before reporting her concern.
Wouldn't you have mentioned to someone in authority your concern within a day or two?

You would and shame on her for not doing that, however it doesn’t change the fact she did it eventually.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 20, 2019, 08:40:33 PM
Do you seriously think Gaspar felt the McCanns were complicit in Madeleine’s disappearance?
No, she thought DP was worth reporting to the police as a person of interest. At least that's what I take from her going to the police and making a formal statement to that effect.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 20, 2019, 08:41:01 PM
Do you seriously believe Gaspar didn't contact police to report her concerns after learning Madeleine was missing?

She should have voiced her concerns a year and a half before Madeleine disappeared.
When she had suspicions that one or two toddlers were being sexually abused by one or two father's.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 20, 2019, 08:42:33 PM
She should have voiced her concerns a year and a half before Madeleine disappeared.
When she had suspicions that one or two toddlers were being sexually abused by one or two father's.

Someone could have filmed them at it. We could all watch but not go to prison for it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 20, 2019, 08:43:01 PM
You would and shame on her for not doing that, however it doesn’t change the fact she did it eventually.

And if she had reported it a year and a half before Madeleine disappeared do you believe that would have altered the fate that befell Madeleine?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 20, 2019, 08:43:08 PM
She could have walked in, oscillated her index finger in her mouth and circled her nipple with the other while she told them.
Is that the international signal paedos give each other do you think?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 20, 2019, 08:43:13 PM
She should have voiced her concerns a year and a half before Madeleine disappeared.
When she had suspicions that one or two toddlers were being sexually abused by one or two father's.
Are you suggesting that her account is now invalid due to her not reporting it at the time?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 20, 2019, 08:43:44 PM
Do you seriously believe Gaspar didn't contact police to report her concerns after learning Madeleine was missing?
No I don’t believe that.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 20, 2019, 08:43:58 PM
She should have voiced her concerns a year and a half before Madeleine disappeared.
When she had suspicions that one or two toddlers were being sexually abused by one or two father's.

She should....and ? Does that change the veracity of her statement ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 20, 2019, 08:44:13 PM
Someone could have filmed them at it. We could all watch but not go to prison for it.

Often I do read your posts and often I find them a little weird!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 20, 2019, 08:44:49 PM
No, she thought DP was worth reporting to the police as a person of interest. At least that's what I take from her going to the police and making a formal statement to that effect.
So what relevance does him being the last independent person to see Madeleine have as far as she would be concerned then?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 20, 2019, 08:44:58 PM
Is that the international signal paedos give each other do you think?
I don't think K Gaspar is anything of the sort.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 20, 2019, 08:45:48 PM
She should have voiced her concerns a year and a half before Madeleine disappeared.
When she had suspicions that one or two toddlers were being sexually abused by one or two father's.

Perhaps she did.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 20, 2019, 08:45:53 PM
Someone could have filmed them at it. We could all watch but not go to prison for it.
What a sicko.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 20, 2019, 08:46:32 PM
And if she had reported it a year and a half before Madeleine disappeared do you believe that would have altered the fate that befell Madeleine?

I have no idea. It would stop the vilification of her for doing....eventually...the right thing.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 20, 2019, 08:48:35 PM
She should....and ? Does that change the veracity of her statement ?

I'm sure she made her statement in good faith but I do think that if she had any real concern that one if not two toddlers were being sexually abused by one or two fathers then she would have acted on her concern a year and a half before.
Really wouldn't most folk do that if they had deep concerns?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 20, 2019, 08:49:23 PM
What a sicko.

Just applying davel logic there.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 20, 2019, 08:49:32 PM
So what relevance does him being the last independent person to see Madeleine have as far as she would be concerned then?
I mean, it's pretty apparent.
In the midst of a full scale, world wide hunt for a missing child, she realises, joining the dots, albeit slowly......the penny drops......'shit a brick, love, that's that weirdo from Majorca that time, the one with the finger and the nipple'.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 20, 2019, 08:49:39 PM
How many times I have I got to tell you before it sinks in?
She should have, could have, are all opinions. It's what she did that are facts.

Mrs. Gaspar didn't report it at the time.  And that's a fact.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 20, 2019, 08:54:21 PM
Mrs. Gaspar didn't report it at the time.  And that's a fact.
Plenty of victims and witnesses don't report at the time for many reasons.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 20, 2019, 08:56:56 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzpAUzE2Zc8&list=RDUbt68d7FXLs&start_radio=1 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzpAUzE2Zc8&list=RDUbt68d7FXLs&start_radio=1)
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 20, 2019, 08:58:22 PM
I have no idea. It would stop the vilification of her for doing....eventually...the right thing.

The only villification taking place is the one pertaining to either one or two men whose names have been linked to the sexual abuse of their daughters for almost twelve years on the internet .
 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 20, 2019, 09:00:52 PM
I mean, it's pretty apparent.
In the midst of a full scale, world wide hunt for a missing child, she realises, joining the dots, albeit slowly......the penny drops......'shit a brick, love, that's that weirdo from Majorca that time, the one with the finger and the nipple'.
Yes I get that, but in order for his being the last person to see Madeleine alive apart from her parents to be significant (as far as she is concerned) then obviously it would be necessary for the parents to also somehow involved.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 20, 2019, 09:01:37 PM
You think Davel approves of filming paedos having sex with children?

No, he thinks that viewing child porn shouldn't necessarily attract a custodial prison sentence.

He said so only yesterday as I recall.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 20, 2019, 09:03:39 PM
Plenty of victims and witnesses don't report at the time for many reasons.

No, she was a professional woman and used to dealing with the many difficult decisions that her professional life could incur.
She wasn't a victim or a witness to any abuse.
I do feel she didn't suspect that two toddlers were being sexually abused by one or two fathers or surely she would not have waited for a year and a half before reporting it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 20, 2019, 09:04:01 PM
I'm sure she made her statement in good faith but I do think that if she had any real concern that one if not two toddlers were being sexually abused by one or two fathers then she would have acted on her concern a year and a half before.
Really wouldn't most folk do that if they had deep concerns?

Are you saying she was making it up ? That she hadn’t experienced what she said ? Why would she do that ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 20, 2019, 09:04:43 PM
Yes I get that, but in order for his being the last person to see Madeleine alive apart from her parents to be significant (as far as she is concerned) then obviously it would be necessary for the parents to also somehow involved.
Maybe....maaayyybbbeeee.....she thought DP was involved! [cue dramatic music]
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 20, 2019, 09:06:08 PM
Are you saying she was making it up ? That she hadn’t experienced what she said ? Why would she do that ?

You are a past master at managing to twist what a poster is actually saying.
Ten out of ten for doing so again!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 20, 2019, 09:08:13 PM
No, she was a professional woman and used to dealing with the many difficult decisions that her professional life could incur.
She wasn't a victim or a witness to any abuse.
I do feel she didn't suspect that two toddlers were being sexually abused by one or two fathers or surely she would not have waited for a year and a half before reporting it.
Well clearly, as we have been trying to explain all evening Ern, it took a 2nd, much more sinister event for the episode to take on a new meaning. Initially he's a weirdo with undesirable proclivities and potential  - now he's in the frame!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 20, 2019, 09:10:11 PM
You are a past master at managing to twist what a poster is actually saying.
Ten out of ten for doing so again!
It's a valid point. With your take on it, she's either lying, or she has another reason for the delay. I think the reason is she put the two together and thought DP was someone the police should talk to. I don't think she though the McCann's were implicated by it necessarily.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 20, 2019, 09:11:37 PM
You are a past master at managing to twist what a poster is actually saying.
Ten out of ten for doing so again!

So what are you saying ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 20, 2019, 09:19:27 PM
So what are you saying ?

Read back!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 20, 2019, 09:22:37 PM
No, he thinks that viewing child porn shouldn't necessarily attract a custodial prison sentence.

He said so only yesterday as I recall.
A view which is shared by the judicial system in this country, have you not noticed?  Instread of pratting about here why not do something useful and start a nationwide campaign to get life sentences for anyone dowloading or viewing child porn?  You obviously feel very strongly about it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 20, 2019, 09:23:37 PM
Well clearly, as we have been trying to explain all evening Ern, it took a 2nd, much more sinister event for the episode to take on a new meaning. Initially he's a weirdo with undesirable proclivities and potential  - now he's in the frame!

Fair enough.
If I had witnessed an incident where I believed one or two toddlers were being sexually abused by one or two fathers I wouldn't have waited more than a week to give my concerns to anyone whom I believed would take that concern further.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 20, 2019, 09:24:00 PM
Maybe....maaayyybbbeeee.....she thought DP was involved! [cue dramatic music]
Obviously.  Also obviously she didn’t thonk Kate or Gerry were.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 20, 2019, 09:30:54 PM
Fair enough.
If I had witnessed an incident where I believed one or two toddlers were being sexually abused by one or two fathers I wouldn't have waited more than a week to give my concerns to anyone whom I believed would take that concern further.
I know, me too. But Diff'rent Strokes fer Diff'rent Folks and all that.
Who knows what stopped her, she might have been talked down by her husband, or she sought opinions from colleagues and I've alluded to a clinical 'omerta' that we all know exists, or whatever, but we do know what compelled her to act eventually.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 20, 2019, 09:31:57 PM
You don't say much about Amaral getting slaughtered on the internet. He's got family as well you know.
The hypocrisy on view here at times is a joy to behold IMO.

Has it  been suggested that he is a paedophile?

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 20, 2019, 09:32:44 PM
Obviously.  Also obviously she didn’t thonk Kate or Gerry were.
I've already said that; I don't thunk she thought the McCann's were complicit, she was reporting him.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 20, 2019, 09:33:53 PM
I know, me too. But Diff'rent Strokes fer Diff'rent Folks and all that.
Who knows what stopped her, she might have been talked down by her husband, or she sought opinions from colleagues and I've alluded to a clinical 'omerta' that we all know exists, or whatever, but we do know what compelled her to act eventually.


And her action was too late?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 20, 2019, 09:36:36 PM
I've already said that; I don't thunk she thought the McCann's were complicit, she was reporting him.
LOL.  At least we’re both thonking along the same lines on this one.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 20, 2019, 09:39:24 PM
LOL.  At least we’re both thonking along the same lines on this one.

Thunking
Thonking

Lol

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 20, 2019, 09:39:42 PM
You never heard people referring to the law as an ass. I do it when adults are dismissed from a custodial sentence for viewing children being severely sexually abused.

Although tough, IMO, a rope round their neck is the cure. That's the level of protection our children deserve IMO.
Sod what the current judicial system thinks.
Crikey, it’s escalated from a custodial sentence to hanging now.  I remember when Julia Somerville was investigated for having child porn in her possession.  It was photos of her children in the bath that she picked up from Boots photolab.  Would you have hanged her?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 20, 2019, 09:42:16 PM

And her action was too late?
Well that's the bit we don't know.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 20, 2019, 09:44:06 PM
Thunking
Thonking

Lol
You saw what we were doing there.........
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 20, 2019, 09:47:08 PM
That's about the only thing that's not been suggested about him, but I can't say I've ever seen any of it disgust you.

The hypocrisy from the Amaral bashers, who are quick off the mark, to defend a man who the file says has given the police two completely different versions of the last time he claims he seen the child alive. Bearing in, there is no proof that he ever did see her on May 3rd.

The hypocrisy is the funny part. Keep up the good work.

Can you remind me of any accusations made against Amaral.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 20, 2019, 09:49:01 PM
Well that's the bit we don't know.

That would be a hard cross for her to bear.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 20, 2019, 10:05:57 PM
Nope, it's not escalated from a custodial sentence to hanging, it's escalated from a NON custodial sentence to hanging. Come on, stick to the facts... it was non custodial sentences you were discussing.

Was Julia Somerville ever been convicted of child porn? Crikey that's a bit OTT IMO, but the convicted ones, I'll be more than happy to pull the lever.

It's the kids my opinion is putting first and foremost.

Hanging paedophiles by the neck is a sentence still practiced in other countries.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1001264/yemen-news-execution-paedophiles-shot-hung-crane-killed-boy-ten-pictures

The UK is lagging behind IMO. I'm sure the kids being abused as we speak would agree.
no, it’s escalated from a call for custodial sentences for all viewers of child porn to a call for the death sentence for same.  You think we should be more like the Yemen?  Bloody hell.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 20, 2019, 10:24:48 PM
Bloody hell is one way to put it but it's a sad day when the Yemen is leading the way in justice for the victims of child sexual abuse... and the UK is letting their child abusers away with a slap on the wrists on occasions.

That's not my idea of justice... and it's certainly not my idea of a deterrent either. Try my approach.. and I bet you'd soon see results.

Those who view child porn should be treated in the exact same manner as those who produce it in my opinion. A zero tolerance approach might even have deterred Madeleine's ab...duc..tor had one been in place.

Would it be a deterrent ?

To most people the thought of viewing any child being abused would be utterly abhorrent.
They don't need the anticipation of any subsequent punishment to deter them from viewing such content.

I'm unsure of what would deter those who wish to view such images.
Much as some seem  to view horrible real life images of atrocities committed by terrorists.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 20, 2019, 10:35:25 PM
Bloody hell is one way to put it but it's a sad day when the Yemen is leading the way in justice for the victims of child sexual abuse... and the UK is letting their child abusers away with a slap on the wrists on occasions.

That's not my idea of justice... and it's certainly not my idea of a deterrent either. Try my approach.. and I bet you'd soon see results.

Those who view child porn should be treated in the exact same manner as those who produce it in my opinion. A zero tolerance approach might even have deterred Madeleine's ab...duc..tor had one been in place.
I do not support the death penalty for anyone for any crime, and I think your suggestion is utterly over the top.  I think publishing the names of individuals who have been found guilty of such offences in the press, putting them on the sex offenders list and (depending on the seriousness of the images downloaded) prison sentences where appropriate is quite adequate IMO.   If there was a way of preventing paedos (and trolls) from gaining access to the internet at all, I’d support that too.   
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 20, 2019, 10:35:38 PM
You think those three paedophiles in the pictures in The Express are going to be bothering anymore children?

I haven't read the article.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 20, 2019, 10:48:31 PM
I can live with what you think of my suggestion. It's just a pity it's our abused children who have to live with yours.

Sex offenders registrar?  Easy there tiger. These predatory pedophiles have feelings too you know.
Are you being facetious?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 20, 2019, 10:50:40 PM
I can live with what you think of my suggestion. It's just a pity it's our abused children who have to live with yours.

Sex offenders registrar?  Easy there tiger. These predatory pedophiles have feelings too you know.

The horrible truth is that many children are abused  within their own family and some accept that abuse as the norm for family life.
That must be a dreadful place for them to be.
Some have reached adulthood and manage to live with that abuse, some have not.
Whether they would want the perpetrators of that abuse to be hanged?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 20, 2019, 10:51:54 PM
You don't have to read the pictures in it.

I haven't seen the pictures either.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 20, 2019, 11:01:05 PM
The horrible truth is that many children are abused  within their own family and some accept that abuse as the norm for family life.
That must be a dreadful place for them to be.
Some have reached adulthood and manage to live with that abuse, some have not.
Whether they would want the perpetrators of that abuse to be hanged?

And we should applaud anyone who brings suspected abuse to the police’s attention....no matter how belatedly.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 20, 2019, 11:05:20 PM
She waited such a long time to report her belief that a child/ children were being sexually abused, in her opinion.
Maybe it was reported.  Would we get to know about that if it was?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 20, 2019, 11:13:37 PM
I'm following on behind so please forgive me if you have already dealt with this.  That is not the cite requested by Eleanor or later by me. We both have requested to see the photocopy of the original email.
We can only see what is presented as the PJ file.  If there are illusions to an earlier email that is interesting but how can anyone be asked to show it if it simply isn't in the file?

What exactly is the wording suggesting an earlier email?  Has that been established in this discussion?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 20, 2019, 11:21:16 PM
Cites have been requested to support what you are posting.  Please provide them as per forum protocol, thank you.
Have you got link to those cite requests?

I think a request to see the original email is OTT because I've never seen that in the 3 years I've been studying this case. Eleanor suggested it exists, maybe she can jog her memory on that one.

What others were there?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 20, 2019, 11:27:50 PM
What a sicko.
Shouldn't you be reporting Wonderfulspam to the authorities?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 20, 2019, 11:30:48 PM
Mrs. Gaspar didn't report it at the time.  And that's a fact.
As far as we know its a fact.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 20, 2019, 11:35:12 PM
I find it difficult to be anything else with the suggestion that a placement on a sex offenders registrar = justice for victims of child sexual abuse and a deterrent. It seems to me that pedophilia is spreading through our society at an alarming rate. My partner works in social work part time and she never discusses individual cases, but she struggles with the true scale of the problem. We only see the tip of the iceberg and I for one am not ashamed to support radical action to punish and prevent it spreading any further. 

You can stick your sex offender's registrar where the sun don't shine, it's not answer to pedophilia IMO.
So you would bring back hanging and do away with the sex offender’s registrar?  OK, well make sure you vote for UKIP or the Brexit Party at the next election won’t you.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 20, 2019, 11:43:54 PM
Can you remind me of any accusations made against Amaral.
New thread.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 20, 2019, 11:52:39 PM
And we should applaud anyone who brings suspected abuse to the police’s attention....no matter how belatedly.
But should that suspicion be made public.  Mrs Gaspar reporting to the police, commendable but the PJ releasing that allegation as part of the McCann file.  I think that might have been despicable.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 21, 2019, 07:00:54 AM
But should that suspicion be made public.  Mrs Gaspar reporting to the police, commendable but the PJ releasing that allegation as part of the McCann file.  I think that might have been despicable.

Do you feel the same about the suspicions about Robert Murat? About Metodo 3's 'dirt' on Sergey Malinka?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 21, 2019, 07:20:24 AM
Do you feel the same about the suspicions about Robert Murat? About Metodo 3's 'dirt' on Sergey Malinka?
IMO the files should never have been released to the public.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 21, 2019, 07:22:48 AM
IMO the files should never have been released to the public.
Is it a Portuguese thing, releasing the files? What drove it, forgive my ignorance?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 21, 2019, 07:24:56 AM
IMO the files should never have been released to the public.
Its given some folk summit to do for 11years though.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 21, 2019, 08:14:33 AM
I'm sure she made her statement in good faith but I do think that if she had any real concern that one if not two toddlers were being sexually abused by one or two fathers then she would have acted on her concern a year and a half before.
Really wouldn't most folk do that if they had deep concerns?

Totally agree Erngath.    It seems to me that she didn't have any real concern,  but when finding out that DP was on holiday with the McCann's decided to tell them what she saw.    Jumping to conclusions.   Mrs. Gaspar didn't know what the conversation was about, she was sat between the men which I find ridiculous if you are going to talk about such things together,  at least do it in private not talk to each other with a person whom DP didn't even know between you. 


I am sure that LP looked into it they wouldn't have let it go if it had any bearing at all on the disappearance of Madeleine.   Unless anyone thinks the McCann's were being PROTECTED !!   IMO
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 21, 2019, 08:16:36 AM
Is it a Portuguese thing, releasing the files? What drove it, forgive my ignorance?
My understanding is that they were released to some journalists and one of them (a notorious McCann basher) put them on the internet. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 21, 2019, 09:01:25 AM
Totally agree Erngath.    It seems to me that she didn't have any real concern,  but when finding out that DP was on holiday with the McCann's decided to tell them what she saw.    Jumping to conclusions.   Mrs. Gaspar didn't know what the conversation was about, she was sat between the men which I find ridiculous if you are going to talk about such things together,  at least do it in private not talk to each other with a person whom DP didn't even know between you. 


I am sure that LP looked into it they wouldn't have let it go if it had any bearing at all on the disappearance of Madeleine.   Unless anyone thinks the McCann's were being PROTECTED !!   IMO

The PJ don't seem interested in it either..
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 21, 2019, 09:13:26 AM

If Katerina Gaspar was so worried about Davis Payne why did she continue to allow him to bath her daughter for the rest of the holiday?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 21, 2019, 09:29:13 AM
Do you have a life sized close up of David Payne's face?

If you look at these two photo's,  blow them up on your screen,  RM seems to have a scar on his cheek.

I think that statement is mixed up.  IMO

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&id=CC0D59CAAC067FB3A8A828F3E34305384188948B&thid=OIP.oIvYYqq8ivGV7gq3HamCjAAAAA&mediaurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk%2FPayneMuratL_468x304.jpg&exph=304&expw=468&q=robert+murat+madeleine+mccann&selectedindex=5&ajaxhist=0&vt=0

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 21, 2019, 09:57:16 AM
That's a little bit like saying why did the McCanns lock their door every single day given they felt so safe and the tennis court was directly next to the tapas. They still felt concerned enough to lock it.
Which is evidence IMO,  that at no time, did they feel safe enough to leave it unlocked at night and Gerry was telling the truth on May 4th.
That means Gerry deliberately gave a false second version of the last time he claims to have seen the child alive IMO.


They were away from the apartment for long periods of time during the day.

If you believe that Gerry told the truth on the 4th that would mean that Mathew was lying?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 21, 2019, 10:01:04 AM
That's exactly what I believe. Any proof to the contrary?

So you believe that Gerry told the truth on the 4th when Kate and Matthew lied to the Police?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 21, 2019, 10:25:18 AM
That's exactly what I believe. Do you have any proof to the contrary.

More importantly, the police, the people closest to the investigation believed exactly that too.

"From the declarations of the group results a total incoherence, in the face of which it's obvious, that everyone lies". https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAVARES_ALMEIDA.htm

Closest to the investigation?   That report said this -  Gerald McCann's profession is a cardiovascular surgeon.  They can't even get Gerry's profession correct.   Another part said when talking about the visit by David Payne to 5a,  that Kate said 30 seconds and GERRY said 30 minutes,  so if the 30 minutes had come from Gerry and not David Payne, it would be understandable as David went home to change before joining Gerry to play tennis. Another error is that it says Kates father said that Kate would administer calpol to the children to help them sleep that is not what he said he said 'the only thing he has seen Kate give the children was Calpol'   he wasn't even there on the holiday.   He had said NO to the question of whether Kate give the children anything to help them sleep.   I stopped reading after that as this report is full or errors and what they think happened and not actually based on fact.  IMO
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 21, 2019, 10:27:26 AM
But if the files were never released we'd never have got to read:
"The lawyer (Gerry's lawyer) for the defence says he wishes the arguido to be asked again if Madeleine bled. To which he said it was common for Madeleine to have nosebleeds. He says that he doesn't know if in fact his daughter bled while on holiday in Portugal because he does not want to be influenced by the news in the Press, regarding the detection of human blood in the apartment where his daughter disappeared".
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-ARGUIDO.htm

Is there anything else in the files to indicate that Madeleine did in fact, ever suffer common nosebleeds?

Why do you think Madeleine's nosebleeds have any relevance ... there was NO blood found which could have been hers.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 21, 2019, 10:27:45 AM
Do you feel the same about the suspicions about Robert Murat? About Metodo 3's 'dirt' on Sergey Malinka?
Not at this stage as I don't know anything about it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 21, 2019, 10:30:32 AM
Why do you think Madeleine's nosebleeds have any relevance ... there was NO blood found which could have been hers.
The presence or otherwise of blood is actually irrelevant in this instance; the point is the revisionism.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 21, 2019, 10:30:48 AM
That's exactly what I believe. Do you have any proof to the contrary.

More importantly, the police, the people closest to the investigation believed exactly that too.

"From the declarations of the group results a total incoherence, in the face of which it's obvious, that everyone lies". https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAVARES_ALMEIDA.htm

you are 11 yeras behind....the investigation has moved on...the mccanns are now not suspects and theres no evidence against them
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 21, 2019, 10:31:10 AM
Its given some folk summit to do for 11years though.
It is rather a high mountain to cross.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 21, 2019, 10:34:02 AM

They were away from the apartment for long periods of time during the day.

If you believe that Gerry told the truth on the 4th that would mean that Mathew was lying?

Gerry could have entered a locked apartment at 9pm and not locked it when he left. He made a liar of Russell who said he checked an unlocked 5A on Sunday 29th.

On Sunday I recall I checked Kate and Gerry’s apartment.....I recall that Kate and Gerry’s apartment was accessed by the patios door which was left closed and unlocked.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm

Gerry said;

On that day only the deponent and his wife entered the apartment. He is sure that they always entered through the front door,
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 21, 2019, 10:35:41 AM
That's exactly what I believe. Do you have any proof to the contrary.

More importantly, the police, the people closest to the investigation believed exactly that too.

"From the declarations of the group results a total incoherence, in the face of which it's obvious, that everyone lies". https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAVARES_ALMEIDA.htm

It is quite extraordinary the number of former policemen who back Amaral to the hilt have subsequently been convicted of criminal offences of one type or another.  In the case of Tavares Almeida whose opinion you have linked to ... his conviction was for torture  http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2140.msg71031#msg71031
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 21, 2019, 10:42:08 AM
You can stop reading all you want but you don't appear to be able to stop ignoring the basic and blatant errors in the file that litter the accounts of the last two men to see the child alive - allegedly.

Allegedly.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 21, 2019, 10:43:16 AM
You can stop reading all you want but you don't appear to be able to stop ignoring the basic and blatant errors in the file that litter the accounts of the last two men to see the child alive - allegedly.

Gerry corrected himself,  it was obviously a mistake on his part probably due to distress,  taking into account it was the following day after his daughter had gone missing.   He had entered the apartment through the front door during the day,  letting Kate and the children in through the patio doors,  it was an easy mistake to make, can't think of any reason why he would lie about it.

As for DP and seeing Madeleine at 5 o'clock,  I'm sorry but the statements of the friends all show him being on the beach at that time,  water sports I believe,  then they went to a restaurant for food.   Looking at all the mistakes in that report,  I wouldn't be at all surprised if his statements have been mixed up.  IMO
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 21, 2019, 10:45:59 AM
Gerry could have entered a locked apartment at 9pm and not locked it when he left. He made a liar of Russell who said he checked an unlocked 5A on Sunday 29th.

On Sunday I recall I checked Kate and Gerry’s apartment.....I recall that Kate and Gerry’s apartment was accessed by the patios door which was left closed and unlocked.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm

Gerry said;

On that day only the deponent and his wife entered the apartment. He is sure that they always entered through the front door,
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm


To be honest after looking at the statement of the Social worker I think a lot of these statements have been mixed up.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 21, 2019, 10:49:58 AM
The presence or otherwise of blood is actually irrelevant in this instance; the point is the revisionism.

A little revisionism for some wouldn't have gone amiss back in 2008 when there was no evidence found to lay any charges against the arguidos. 

The non presence of Madeleine's blood is relevant in that considering the blood splatter of blood spatter Amaral thought was behind the couch and on the walls and which he promoted tirelessly in his book ... in his documentary ... and throughout his media career built on the sand of his exceptionally flawed thesis.
(http://duartelevyen.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/imagem12.png?w=300&h=182)
The chickens are coming home to roost with the fact that two current police investigations have cleared Madeleine's parents and both are focused on stranger abduction.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 21, 2019, 10:53:33 AM
Not at this stage as I don't know anything about it.

Well both were accused and in Malinka's case Metodo 3 handed their 'evidence' about him to the PJ. I see no reason why accusations about some people should be suppressed if others aren't.

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SERGEY-MALINKA.htm
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ROBERT-MURAT.htm

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 21, 2019, 10:54:24 AM
If you think former Portugeuses policemen being convicted of criminal offences is evidence that supports the veracity of the McCanns story, good for you.

Don't count me in on that one!

How many criminal convictions do any of the people portrayed as master criminals have ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 21, 2019, 11:20:55 AM
As Davel is quick to remind posters, what we think is not important, it's what Gerry thought in this case, to have his lawyer get the police to ask him that's important in relation to the facts of the case. 

Is there anything that proves none of Madeleine's blood was in the apartment or the hire car.? Is there anything else in the files that suggest Madeleine ever did in fact suffer from common nosebleeds? I fail to see how Brietta the moderator can conclude there was NO blood of Madeleine's found when the scientist who examined all the samples couldn't do it.

None of Madeleine's Blood was found.  End of.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 21, 2019, 11:45:01 AM
Cite please in accordance with forum protocol, thank you!

Prove me wrong.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 21, 2019, 12:04:15 PM
No bother, that's easy.

"Well lets look at the question that is being asked

"Is there DNA from Madeline on the swab "

It would be very simple to say "YES" simply because of the number of components within the result that are also in her reference sample.

What we need to consider, as scientists, is whether the match is genuine and legitimate; because Madeline has deposited DNA as a result of being in the car or whether Madeline merely appears to match the result by chance. The individual components in Madeline's profile are not unique to her, it is the specific combination of 19 components that makes her profile unique above all others. Elements of Madeline's profile are also present within the the profiles of many of the scientists here in Birmingham, myself included. it's important to stress that 50% of Madeline's profile will be shared with each parent. IT IS NOT POSSIBLE in a mixture of more than two people, to determine or evaluate which specific DNA components pair with each other. Namely, we cannot separate the components out into 3 individual DNA profiles.

Therefore, we cannot answer the question: is the match genuine or is it a chance match".
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm


Mr Lowe is quite clear, "IT IS NOT POSSIBLE" to determine if it's Madeleine's blood or not. You said none of Madeleine's blood was found, which would have to mean that Mr Lowe was wrong and it WAS possible for him to determine. You got a cite for that?

He didn't find anything that could be identified as Madeleine's Blood.  Take that to Court.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 21, 2019, 12:11:26 PM
What he did find was a sample from a car that had been hired three weeks after a child disappeared that appeared to match that very child.
Let's see what happens with the new technology that can make the determination. They certainly do take that to court.  8(0(*

That appeared to match Madeleine and many other people, including several of the scientists.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on May 21, 2019, 12:34:15 PM
But should that suspicion be made public.  Mrs Gaspar reporting to the police, commendable but the PJ releasing that allegation as part of the McCann file.  I think that might have been despicable.

The Gaspar statements were covered by the Data Protection Act UK & should never have been released on the DVD PJ files.
Is anyone able to locate a video showing David Payne in Luz before 16th May 2007 other than the Sky news clip of 4th May?
 I find it strange that, for a couple who were allegedly such close friends with the McCanns, it took them until the time Murat became an arguido before they reportedly remembered the offensive gesture which prompted them to contact the police.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on May 21, 2019, 12:53:37 PM
Perhaps the reason the Gaspar's statements were released, was to prove to the public that the UK police were suppressing evidence from their Portuguese counterparts.

We reap what we sow sometimes.

The evidence is in the files ergo it wasn't suppressed from the PJ. The fact it wasn't sent before Amaral was sidelined is irrelevant.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 21, 2019, 01:00:12 PM
The dates prove the statements were suppressed for more than five months. You don't like the facts, that's just too bad IMO.

If this evidence is so important why did the PJ not act on it when it was received
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 21, 2019, 01:02:37 PM
No bother, that's easy.

"Well lets look at the question that is being asked

"Is there DNA from Madeline on the swab "

It would be very simple to say "YES" simply because of the number of components within the result that are also in her reference sample.

What we need to consider, as scientists, is whether the match is genuine and legitimate; because Madeline has deposited DNA as a result of being in the car or whether Madeline merely appears to match the result by chance. The individual components in Madeline's profile are not unique to her, it is the specific combination of 19 components that makes her profile unique above all others. Elements of Madeline's profile are also present within the the profiles of many of the scientists here in Birmingham, myself included. it's important to stress that 50% of Madeline's profile will be shared with each parent. IT IS NOT POSSIBLE in a mixture of more than two people, to determine or evaluate which specific DNA components pair with each other. Namely, we cannot separate the components out into 3 individual DNA profiles.

Therefore, we cannot answer the question: is the match genuine or is it a chance match".
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm


Mr Lowe is quite clear, "IT IS NOT POSSIBLE" to determine if it's Madeleine's blood or not. You said none of Madeleine's blood was found, which would have to mean that Mr Lowe was wrong and it WAS possible for him to determine. You got a cite for that?

The Fss were only asked if it was a match to madeleine....thts why only madeleine was mentioned...it was not confirmed as blood or dna  from madeleine...it cannot be said madeleines blood was found in teh car
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 21, 2019, 01:16:59 PM
The importance of the evidence is completely unknown unless you have some evidence you wish to share? The fact that evidence of any nature, was being suppressed, is important to the integrity of the UK police who had no right to suppress it, given a little girl was still missing. It's not beyond the realms of possibility at the time that the Portuguese could have uncovered evidence that linked it.

The fact that any evidence at all was suppressed, is a disgrace from the missing child's point of view IMO.

Remember her?

I believe the evidence was investigated and found to be of no importance....and not suppressed...LP were in a difficult position in complying with uk and eu law...i think your conclusions are laughable...in the nicest possible...


and again...why have th e PJ not acted on this evidence if its of importance way
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on May 21, 2019, 01:24:42 PM
The dates prove the statements were suppressed for more than five months. You don't like the facts, that's just too bad IMO.

If the statements had just been sent to PJ on 16/5/07, what would the PJ have done with them? Do you think they'd have asked LP to carry out further enquiries in the UK (as per the additional questioning of Dave & Fiona presumably as per ILOR) or would PJ have just filed them away as DP had an alibi for the time Madeleine went missing?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on May 21, 2019, 01:30:48 PM
As a side issue, Mrs Gaspar doesn't seem very good at spotting crimes going on right under her nose....a report about her brother who worked at the same practice where she is one of the 3 company directors....
https://www.thefreelibrary.com/GP+surgery+business+boss+stole+PS115%2C000.-a0452624474
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 21, 2019, 01:52:26 PM
A little revisionism for some wouldn't have gone amiss back in 2008 when there was no evidence found to lay any charges against the arguidos. 

The non presence of Madeleine's blood is relevant in that considering the blood splatter of blood spatter Amaral thought was behind the couch and on the walls and which he promoted tirelessly in his book ... in his documentary ... and throughout his media career built on the sand of his exceptionally flawed thesis.
(http://duartelevyen.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/imagem12.png?w=300&h=182)
The chickens are coming home to roost with the fact that two current police investigations have cleared Madeleine's parents and both are focused on stranger abduction.

In your dreams. They only continue to spend this much on a case when they know who did it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 21, 2019, 02:13:34 PM
The Gaspar statements were covered by the Data Protection Act UK & should never have been released on the DVD PJ files.
Is anyone able to locate a video showing David Payne in Luz before 16th May 2007 other than the Sky news clip of 4th May?
 I find it strange that, for a couple who were allegedly such close friends with the McCanns, it took them until the time Murat became an arguido before they reportedly remembered the offensive gesture which prompted them to contact the police.

I would argue that none of the information gathered and held by LP was theirs. It all belonged to the Portuguese and should have been handed over immediately imo.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 21, 2019, 02:16:14 PM
I would argue that none of the information gathered and held by LP was theirs. It all belonged to the Portuguese and should have been handed over immediately imo.

you can argue all you like...totally meaningless...i dont see how evidence collected by LP can belong to anyone else ..
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 21, 2019, 02:31:42 PM
If this evidence is so important why did the PJ not act on it when it was received

It wasn't fit for Evidence or coherent or substantiated, least of all by Mr. Gaspar.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 21, 2019, 02:33:28 PM
The importance of the evidence is completely unknown unless you have some evidence you wish to share? The fact that evidence of any nature, was being suppressed, is important to the integrity of the UK police who had no right to suppress it, given a little girl was still missing. It's not beyond the realms of possibility at the time that the Portuguese could have uncovered evidence that linked it.

The fact that any evidence at all was suppressed, is a disgrace from the missing child's point of view IMO.

Remember her?

We have no proof that it was suppressed.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 21, 2019, 02:37:56 PM
My mum believes in God but she has given me no evidence about that either. In that respect, you and my 84 year old mother have a few things in common. You believe the evidence was investigated in the same manner she believes in God.

The dates of the statements and the dates they were sent prove the evidence was suppressed.

So that leaves my proof versus your unproven beliefs. I can live with that old chap.

and you beleive it wasnt investihgated....evidence that it is of no significance...the PJ havent acted on it
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 21, 2019, 02:38:45 PM
Why did Rebelo leave England before David Payne's Rogatory Interview?  Rebelo obviously wasn't very interested.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 21, 2019, 03:39:20 PM
I just thought I'd leave you and Brietta on the proof that you seem to think doesn't exist.

Oh yes it does, here it is here.

From: DC 1756 Mike MARSHALL
Ref: David Payne
Date: October 24, 2007

Surname: GASPAR
First Names: KATHERINA ZACHARIAS
Age: +18
Date of Birth:
Address:
Postal Code:
Profession:
Telephone no.:
Date of Statement: 16/05/2007


Name: Arul Savio Gaspar
Date of statement: 16-05-2007

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/Gaspar.htm

There's your PROOF that it was surpressed from May 16 2007 up until October 24 2007.


Denial is a terrible condition, I hope you both get well soon.  See, I'm quite a nice guy at heart.

Who do you think was responsible for "suppressing" the Smith statements between their visit 26th of May after which the PJ took no action until September 2007 ??
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 21, 2019, 04:45:28 PM
The importance of the evidence is completely unknown unless you have some evidence you wish to share? The fact that evidence of any nature, was being suppressed, is important to the integrity of the UK police who had no right to suppress it, given a little girl was still missing. It's not beyond the realms of possibility at the time that the Portuguese could have uncovered evidence that linked it.

The fact that any evidence at all was suppressed, is a disgrace from the missing child's point of view IMO.

Remember her?

Do you really believe that Davel or any member of this forum needs reminding that Madeleine is missing.
I don't understand your rather aggressive (IMO) manner of posting
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 21, 2019, 06:43:21 PM
Who do you think was responsible for "suppressing" the Smith statements between their visit 26th of May after which the PJ took no action until September 2007 ??

Those statements weren't suppressed, they were available to the Portuguese investigators. The Gasper statements weren't.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 21, 2019, 08:13:04 PM
Those statements weren't suppressed, they were available to the Portuguese investigators. The Gasper statements weren't.

You really don't know that do you ... wasn't it only after Rebelo took over the case that there was any movement made to request the Gaspar statements from Leicestershire police?  How did they know what to ask for?  Had it got mislaid in the chaos I believe Amaral left behind?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 21, 2019, 08:17:52 PM
You really don't know that do you ... wasn't it only after Rebelo took over the case that there was any movement made to request the Gaspar statements from Leicestershire police?  How did they know what to ask for?  Had it got mislaid in the chaos I believe Amaral left behind?

if the stateemnts were supressed...how did the PJ come to know about them and request them..

Ricardo,

As requested, appended are the statements of Arul and Katherina Gaspar.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 21, 2019, 08:43:08 PM
You really don't know that do you ... wasn't it only after Rebelo took over the case that there was any movement made to request the Gaspar statements from Leicestershire police?  How did they know what to ask for?  Had it got mislaid in the chaos I believe Amaral left behind?

Yup.  How did The PJ know about these statements?

Was there not a statement from a leading Policeman to the effect that all statements had been supplied to The PJ.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 21, 2019, 09:03:43 PM
if the stateemnts were supressed...how did the PJ come to know about them and request them..

Ricardo,

As requested, appended are the statements of Arul and Katherina Gaspar.

Rebelo took the initiative on gathering the Smith evidence too.  Nobody had bothered with receipts from Kelly's bar until he did.
It seems there were quite a few diligences that weren't followed through until Rebelo took over the investigation
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 21, 2019, 09:14:00 PM

The chickens are coming home to roost with the fact that two current police investigations have cleared Madeleine's parents and both are focused on stranger abduction.

Strange then that Do Carmo in answer to Brunt asking do you accept the girl was abducted said we don't know what happened and have to be prepared to deal with different scenarios.

29:30 in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FX3u2Hp42ic
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 21, 2019, 09:22:37 PM
You really don't know that do you ... wasn't it only after Rebelo took over the case that there was any movement made to request the Gaspar statements from Leicestershire police?  How did they know what to ask for?  Had it got mislaid in the chaos I believe Amaral left behind?

Theevidence says the statements were provided in October 2007. All else is speculation.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 21, 2019, 09:24:19 PM
Theevidence says the statements were provided in October 2007. All else is speculation.

Precisely.. It's speculation they were suppressed
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on May 21, 2019, 09:42:44 PM
Precisely.. It's speculation they were suppressed

It’s not speculation that Mrs Gaspar gave a statement and what it included. That’s the real meat.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 21, 2019, 09:58:51 PM
It’s not speculation that Mrs Gaspar gave a statement and what it included. That’s the real meat.
No... Spam
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 21, 2019, 10:20:34 PM
Theevidence says the statements were provided in October 2007. All else is speculation.


The provision of the evidence in October was in response to a PJ request ...  to make the request they had to know what they were asking for don't you think.  Which suggests a prior knowledge of the statements dated some months previously.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 22, 2019, 12:46:25 AM
I find it hard to believe that any policeman worth his weight would read the Gaspar Statements and conclude that on the basis of a couple of perceived suggestive gestures that there were serious grounds to suspect DP of any involvement in Madeleine’s disappearance.  It’s just bonkers IMO. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 22, 2019, 01:32:44 AM
It’s not speculation that Mrs Gaspar gave a statement and what it included. That’s the real meat.

Mrs. Gaspar's statement itself is speculation.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 22, 2019, 02:15:23 AM
UK police chief hits back at Portuguese detective’s claims
8 November 2009 | Posted by astro
The head of Leicestershire Police has rejected claims from a former Portuguese detective that his officers withheld a witness statement from the Madeleine McCann inquiry.

Chris Eyre, the Temporary Chief Constable, said “I can assure you that at no time were statements withheld and not passed on.”

Goncalo Amaral, the Algarve detective who was removed the inquiry early on, made his claim in a book, which is now banned.

Mr Eyre responded after Freedom of Information requests were submitted by the Sunday Express.

A team of Leicestershire family officers went to Portugal on 5 May 2007 to support the McCanns.

It has also emerged that the Foreign Office has withheld details about the investigation so as not to damage relations between Britain and Portugal.

An individual submitted Freedom of Information requests to get details of negotiations by John Buck, Britain’s former ambassador to Portugal.

The then Information Commissioner Richard Thomas refused in case it caused Portugal to lose trust in Britain’s discretion.

in: Sunday Express, 08.11.2009, paper edition only

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6847.msg292202#msg292202
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 22, 2019, 02:47:45 AM
Didn't the McCanns sue The Express for telling lies?
Chris Eyre, the Temporary Chief Constable, didn't though did he ... and he is the guy who is quoted here as saying "that at no time were statements withheld and not passed on" giving the lie to Amaral's allegation in his book.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 22, 2019, 03:06:06 AM
It shouldn't take me to point out that the statements that Amaral claims were suppressed for five months were, technically speaking never withheld and not passed on.. but the date says they were passed on October 24 2007. 160 days after they were received.

Amaral's allegations are entirely without foundation or Chris Eyre would not have publicly denied them when responding to Freedom of Information requests submitted by the Sunday Express by saying "I can assure you that at no time were statements withheld and not passed on.”

Probably after seeing logged receipts for statements which were missing Rebelo requested them ... Leicestershire police didn't send them out of the blue in October ... they were asked for; how could a request be made for information allegedly suppressed if they didn't already know about it and know what to ask for?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 22, 2019, 03:12:09 AM
Amaral's allegations are entirely without foundation or Chris Eyre would not have publicly denied them when responding to Freedom of Information requests submitted by the Sunday Express by saying "I can assure you that at no time were statements withheld and not passed on.”

Probably after seeing logged receipts for statements which were missing Rebelo requested them ... Leicestershire police didn't send them out of the blue in October ... they were asked for; how could a request be made for information allegedly suppressed if they didn't already know about it and know what to ask for?

This Fact was established a long time ago.  The Gaspar Statements were not suppressed.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 22, 2019, 03:23:26 AM
Well why is the correspondence passing them over dated October 24 2007? 160 days after they were received. Why is it not dated May 17 2007 if there weren't suppressed? Withholding statements and suppressing them are two completely different things.

Amaral appears to have mislaid them in the mess he left behind.  The mess that Rebelo had to deal with.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 22, 2019, 03:24:13 AM
Well why is the correspondence passing them over dated October 24 2007? 160 days after they were received. Why is it not dated May 17 2007 if there weren't suppressed? Withholding statements and suppressing them are two completely different things.

It is all really very simple when the reality of the mess left behind by Amaral is factored into the equation ...

Quote
It would be incredibly easy to miss information filed in the manner of the first investigation:

Quote
Paulo Rebelo, the new police chief leading the Madeleine McCann investigation, is furious at how it was left in disarray by his predecessor.

According to reports, officers have spent the past fortnight processing information left lying around on scraps of paper and following leads ignored by police working under Chief Inspector Goncalo Amaral.

Quote
Meanwhile, a police source quoted in a Portuguese newspaper said: "There was important material lying all over the place that hadn't been considered by investigators.

"A lot of key information was discarded. The whole process is being reviewed. Putting all the papers in order has been a massive task."

Officers have been working round-the-clock to log on to a computer all information relating to the disappearance of four-year-old Madeleine from the holiday complex in May.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/madeleine-new-police-chiefs-fury-over-the-mess-he-inherited-from-his-predecessor-6669085.html

The report continues that Rebelo covered all bases by also bringing into his investigation a seasoned murder squad detective Antonio Teixeira, with more than 30 years' experience.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8489.msg424802#msg424802
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 22, 2019, 03:25:05 AM
A request for the statements would be made on learning of their existence it's safe to assume. The reply to the request is dated October 24 2007. Not May 17 2007.

How did The PJ learn of the existence of these statements, do you think?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 22, 2019, 03:36:15 AM
That's the best question you've asked. Do you think someone from the UK might have notified them of their existence? Or do you think Rebelo had psychic powers?

Whatever the answer, the correspondence passing them over is dated October 24 2007.

I am certain that these statements were past over some considerable time before October.  They were somehow mislaid in the meantime, probably in Amaral's waste bin.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 22, 2019, 03:46:23 AM
They were NOT passed on any time before the 24th October 2007. I'll tell you how I KNOW that, shall I?


From: DC 1756 Mike MARSHALL
Date: October 24, 2007

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/Gaspar.htm

This is getting a bit ridiculous.

DC Marshall forwarded information requested by the Judicial police ... who had to know what they were asking for.
Therefore they knew about it in advance of October 24th.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 22, 2019, 04:07:14 AM
The dates support Amaral, not you. You deleting my posts is ridiculous.

It's safe to assume they would request the statements around the time of learning of their existence. The date on the document states quite clearly that the request was made around October 24 2007, almost three weeks AFTER Amaral was removed.

It's not that difficult, if you apply a little common sense and logic. Logic also dictates, that had they learned of their existence in mid May the request wouldn't have been supplied 160 days later.

To make the request ... they had to know what they were asking for ... they could only have known that from information already forwarded to them.

As I have suggested logged or receipted in some way.

I think the problem may lie in misunderstanding the monumental mess the Amaral investigation was in which was left behind him for his successor to sort out ... this request is one of the many diligences Rebelo had to catch up on as a result.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 22, 2019, 04:20:02 AM
You've made a whole lot of suggestions and probabilities none of which are supported by the dates and the testimony of police officers who were involved in the case.

Regardless of whatever mess was left, we know the statements were not passed over until October 24 2007. If you think they were made aware of them prior to October and ignored them, let's see your proof, not any of your so called probabilities?

How did the Policia Judiciaria know what to ask for in the first instance?  Think about that ... then think about the assurance given that no information had been withheld or suppressed.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 22, 2019, 07:08:32 AM
Unless Rebelo had physic powers and knew the Gaspars had given the UK police statements then let's assume if we will, that they were alerted by the UK police of their existence at some point. Who else was going to tell them?
But if they were told about them in mid May, then the request should have been serviced in May. It wasn't. The statements were passed over on October 24 2007. We have documented proof for that. And it tally's with Amaral's account. Much to your dismay I see.  So if they made a request around the time of learning of their existence, which is what one would expect, then you are not asking me to accept the UK police waited for 160 until they passed the statements over, are you?

We have documented proof that the statements did NOT land up in the hands of the PJ until after October 24 2007. Those are facts, documented ones at that.

For the second time, if logic prevails.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 22, 2019, 09:55:20 AM
How did the Policia Judiciaria know what to ask for in the first instance?  Think about that ... then think about the assurance given that no information had been withheld or suppressed.

In theory LP gave the PJ everything they had. It was all entered onto HOLMES and the LP incident room in Portugal had a direct link to it. The PJ were given 'unrestricted access' to the database, but they made 'little use of it'
Pages 6 & 21 http://library.college.police.uk/docs/npia/Strategic-debrief-operation-task-2009.pdf

So the information was there, but the PJ were expected to somehow find it themselves. When Paiva wanted to know more about David Payne LP had gone, according to Amaral. So HOLNES had gone too. Hence his request for information
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 22, 2019, 10:17:32 AM
How did the Policia Judiciaria know what to ask for in the first instance?  Think about that ... then think about the assurance given that no information had been withheld or suppressed.


Perhaps Marshall brought the statements to Paiva's attention during a telephone call about Payne's questionnaire? The PJ were aware that they had no confirmation from Payne of the McCann's claim that he saw Madeleine at 6:30 pm on 3rd.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 22, 2019, 10:22:42 AM
hundreds of posts on the unimportant gasapr sateemnts...imo
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 22, 2019, 10:37:47 AM
That's IYO, not mine. I think it's important to learn why the file tell us the man those statements were concerning, has given the police two completely different versions of the last time he alleges seen the missing child alive.

Such events are considered as critical in every other investigation, I fail to see why the Madeleine McCann one should be any different.

you dont have the two stateemnts given to the police....
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 22, 2019, 11:13:47 AM
We have one of them and the correspondence from DC Marshal in which he states it gives a completely different version of the last time David Payne claims to have seen the missing child alive.

I'm going to make the assumption that DC Marshal could read and write the answers provided by David Payne properly. You can beg to differ on that one if you like.
So you only have one first hand account...
And both SY and the PJ ate investigating... They don't seem interested in your claims
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 22, 2019, 11:37:57 AM
That's exactly what I said, we have one PLUS DC Marshal's one. If you think DC Marshal couldn't read David Payne's answers properly before writing them down for the Portuguese that's fine with me.
Aren't you interested in learning the facts? Isn't that the whole point of the forum?

Don't you worry, I'm watching The Catch That Abductor competition with great interest. I know SY are investigating an abduction as if it occurred in the UK. I don't need you to remind me.

He may well have been mistaken... Murat IR seems had quite a few contradictions in his statements..
I'm interested  in the truth... And I think it will be delivered by SY and the present PJ.... Not by some monkey in the net
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 22, 2019, 12:12:46 PM
We have one of them and the correspondence from DC Marshal in which he states it gives a completely different version of the last time David Payne claims to have seen the missing child alive.

I'm going to make the assumption that DC Marshal could read and write the answers provided by David Payne properly. You can beg to differ on that one if you like.

Could you give me a link to the statement where David Payne says he last saw Madeleine at 5o'clock please?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 22, 2019, 12:34:11 PM
Could you give me a link to the statement where David Payne says he last saw Madeleine at 5o'clock please?

I'm sure you're perfectly well aware that it was DC 1756 Mike Marshall who reported the contents of David Payne's questionnaire.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/Gaspar.htm
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 22, 2019, 12:48:04 PM
I'm sure you're perfectly well aware that it was DC 1756 Mike Marshall who reported the contents of David Payne's questionnaire.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/Gaspar.htm

That doesn't show that David Payne actually said that.   All the evidence in the statements say that David Payne was on the beach at that time.   Also it was the time where Madeleine would have been eating her dinner.

Dianne Webster -  Concerning the day yesterday, she went to the beach with the children, her son-in-law and her daughter. They arrived there at around 3.45pm and left at around 6.15pm to go to the tennis courts where she stayed until 7pm. The informant then went to the apartment with the small children and ten minutes later, her son-in-law, David, joined them. With her son-in-law's help, they bathed the children.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 22, 2019, 12:54:40 PM
I'm sure you're perfectly well aware that it was DC 1756 Mike Marshall who reported the contents of David Payne's questionnaire.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/Gaspar.htm

Monkey says there are two statements by Payne... At the moment we haven't found one... What questionnaire is DC Marshall referring  to
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 22, 2019, 01:03:35 PM
That doesn't show that David Payne actually said that.   All the evidence in the statements say that David Payne was on the beach at that time.   Also it was the time where Madeleine would have been eating her dinner.

Dianne Webster -  Concerning the day yesterday, she went to the beach with the children, her son-in-law and her daughter. They arrived there at around 3.45pm and left at around 6.15pm to go to the tennis courts where she stayed until 7pm. The informant then went to the apartment with the small children and ten minutes later, her son-in-law, David, joined them. With her son-in-law's help, they bathed the children.

If you wish to disbelieve Marshall that's your prerogative. I wouldn't rely on the Webster statement myself, as she's the only one who said she went to the beach with him. Everyone else says only the women and children went to the beach together.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 22, 2019, 01:10:48 PM
That doesn't show that David Payne actually said that.   All the evidence in the statements say that David Payne was on the beach at that time.   Also it was the time where Madeleine would have been eating her dinner.

Dianne Webster -  Concerning the day yesterday, she went to the beach with the children, her son-in-law and her daughter. They arrived there at around 3.45pm and left at around 6.15pm to go to the tennis courts where she stayed until 7pm. The informant then went to the apartment with the small children and ten minutes later, her son-in-law, David, joined them. With her son-in-law's help, they bathed the children.
Clearly DC Marshall was in error in saying 5:00 PM.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 22, 2019, 01:12:27 PM
Monkey says there are two statements by Payne... At the moment we haven't found one... What questionnaire is DC Marshall referring  to
The documents produced by the British police were not included in the archived file.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 22, 2019, 01:23:20 PM
The documents produced by the British police were not included in the archived file.

So we actually don't have any statement by Payne referring to the time.... Neither the rog or his statement to PJ seem to mention the time
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 22, 2019, 04:03:39 PM
If you wish to disbelieve Marshall that's your prerogative. I wouldn't rely on the Webster statement myself, as she's the only one who said she went to the beach with him. Everyone else says only the women and children went to the beach together.

All of them went to the beach apart from the McCann's.  The men did water sports,  I think the men left a bit earlier than the women so as to play tennis. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 22, 2019, 04:08:28 PM
Rachael -  After the game of tennis, the witness returned home to rest, her husband and Russel having gone to the beach of Luz to sail. At about 15:45, her daughter having woken up, she took her to the beach of Luz in the company of Diane, Jane, Fiona and their respective children, where they found Mathew, Russel and David. At 17H30 the children dined in one of restaurants by the beach, not having detected any abnormal or strange situation.

Russell -  We didn’t stick to our usual routine so much that day the children stayed with us and ate their tea at the bar by the beach called the Paridiso.  Everyone was there at the beach except Kate, Gerry and their kids. 

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 22, 2019, 05:52:05 PM
Rachael -  After the game of tennis, the witness returned home to rest, her husband and Russel having gone to the beach of Luz to sail. At about 15:45, her daughter having woken up, she took her to the beach of Luz in the company of Diane, Jane, Fiona and their respective children, where they found Mathew, Russel and David. At 17H30 the children dined in one of restaurants by the beach, not having detected any abnormal or strange situation.

Russell -  We didn’t stick to our usual routine so much that day the children stayed with us and ate their tea at the bar by the beach called the Paridiso.  Everyone was there at the beach except Kate, Gerry and their kids.

It's a fact that David Payne was at the Paraiso at 17:47 and he left at 18L14. It's also a fact that Marshall, after 'carefully' reading his questionnaire, said he claimed to have seen Madeleine, Gerry and Kate in 5A at 17:00.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 22, 2019, 06:03:07 PM
It's a fact that David Payne was at the Paraiso at 17:47 and he left at 18L14. It's also a fact that Marshall, after 'carefully' reading his questionnaire, said he claimed to have seen Madeleine, Gerry and Kate in 5A at 17:00.

Do you have an opinion on the importance of this seeming discrepancy ?
Does this have any bearing on Madeleine's disappearance?

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 22, 2019, 06:05:06 PM
It's a fact that David Payne was at the Paraiso at 17:47 and he left at 18L14. It's also a fact that Marshall, after 'carefully' reading his questionnaire, said he claimed to have seen Madeleine, Gerry and Kate in 5A at 17:00.

it is not  afact...we dont have Marshalls statement...we only have the portuguese translation....which may have incorrectly translated 7.00 pm as 17.00 hrs...without a first hand account by Marshall you cannot claim anything as a fact
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 22, 2019, 06:07:57 PM
It's a fact that David Payne was at the Paraiso at 17:47 and he left at 18L14. It's also a fact that Marshall, after 'carefully' reading his questionnaire, said he claimed to have seen Madeleine, Gerry and Kate in 5A at 17:00.
That is why I think there is an error in "Marshall's" analysis (whether by himself or the translator). "he claimed to have seen Madeleine, Gerry and Kate in 5A at 17:00" IMO is wrong.  It appears to be a time attributed to DP Gerry and Kate that doesn't fit into any of their statements as I understand it ATM.

Do you have an opinion on the importance of this seeming discrepancy ?
Does this have any bearing on Madeleine's disappearance?

The order of events is important. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 22, 2019, 06:09:18 PM
it is not  afact...we dont have Marshalls statement...we only have the portuguese translation....which may have incorrectly translated 7.00 pm as 17.00 hrs...without a first hand account by Marshall you cannot claim anything as a fact

But, but it's in the files
No errors or discrepancies or mistranslations could possibly be in the files!!!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 22, 2019, 06:13:31 PM
We have the translation of the PJ files.  We have photos of the PJ files to compare .  I'd say what is certain is that the timing error is in the file and has not been noted and corrected, which shows to me they were not placing any importance on the DP timeline.  At least not cross checking it closely.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 22, 2019, 06:16:24 PM
We have the translation of the PJ files.  We have photos of the PJ files to compare .  I'd say what is certain is that the timing error is in the file and has not been noted and corrected, which shows to me they were not placing any importance on the DP timeline.  At least not cross checking it closely.

I disagree...they well have noted the error....i would think they cannot start altering files....the files were released.....faults and all
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 22, 2019, 06:18:59 PM
I disagree...they well have noted the error....i would think they cannot start altering files....the files were released.....faults and all
That is what I'm trying to get across is that these faults should have been picked up earlier.

It is a bit like here, should we accept spelling errors?  The management seem to say "no, spelling errors are OK"  but the truth is that no one can trust the results of a search on the forum site as topics have become impossible to search accurately due to all the spelling errors.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 22, 2019, 06:22:47 PM
That is what I'm trying to get across is that these faults should have been picked up earlier.

they should have...but who knows when they were picked up
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 22, 2019, 06:24:16 PM
I disagree...they well have noted the error....i would think they cannot start altering files....the files were released.....faults and all

 8(8-))
But there are some who view these files much as some fundamentalists view the Old Testament.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 22, 2019, 06:24:53 PM
they should have...but who knows when they were picked up
I contend they were never picked up by the PJ while the case was active.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 22, 2019, 06:26:41 PM
I contend they were never picked up by the PJ while the case was active.

agreed
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 22, 2019, 06:36:34 PM
agreed
OK so I contend that the PJ were not looking at DP as a suspect.  The file regarding him wasn't getting the fine tooth comb treatment.   
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Carana on May 22, 2019, 07:17:30 PM
It's a fact that David Payne was at the Paraiso at 17:47 and he left at 18L14. It's also a fact that Marshall, after 'carefully' reading his questionnaire, said he claimed to have seen Madeleine, Gerry and Kate in 5A at 17:00.

But we don't know what Marshall was reading as it's not in the files.

My best guess is that he was reading a google translation of something that wasn't correct. A clue is "the husband arrived".

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 22, 2019, 07:37:25 PM
But we don't know what Marshall was reading as it's not in the files.

My best guess is that he was reading a google translation of something that wasn't correct. A clue is "the husband arrived".
Fairly sure Google Translate would routinely spit out Klingon insults in 2007 as it was in it's infancy.
You wouldn't be able to translate conversation French at that point, never mind a Portuguese witness statement.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 22, 2019, 07:48:05 PM
But we don't know what Marshall was reading as it's not in the files.

My best guess is that he was reading a google translation of something that wasn't correct. A clue is "the husband arrived".

Marshall was reading a questionnaire written and answered in what I assume was his native language; English.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 22, 2019, 08:08:24 PM
UK police chief hits back at Portuguese detective’s claims
8 November 2009 | Posted by astro
The head of Leicestershire Police has rejected claims from a former Portuguese detective that his officers withheld a witness statement from the Madeleine McCann inquiry.

Chris Eyre, the Temporary Chief Constable, said “I can assure you that at no time were statements withheld and not passed on.”

Goncalo Amaral, the Algarve detective who was removed the inquiry early on, made his claim in a book, which is now banned.

Mr Eyre responded after Freedom of Information requests were submitted by the Sunday Express.

A team of Leicestershire family officers went to Portugal on 5 May 2007 to support the McCanns.

It has also emerged that the Foreign Office has withheld details about the investigation so as not to damage relations between Britain and Portugal.

An individual submitted Freedom of Information requests to get details of negotiations by John Buck, Britain’s former ambassador to Portugal.

The then Information Commissioner Richard Thomas refused in case it caused Portugal to lose trust in Britain’s discretion.

in: Sunday Express, 08.11.2009, paper edition only

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6847.msg292202#msg292202

Bungling police had the details of the “main suspect” in the disappearance of Madeleine McCann for SIX YEARS without realising.

The innocent dad came forward in 2007 to say he was the person seen carrying a child in Portugal at the time the three-year-old vanished.

The unnamed dad – spotted in the Praia da Luz resort by McCann family friend Jane Tanner at 9.15pm – was among a number of British witnesses who completed questionnaires for Leicestershire police six years ago.

He is understood to have provided a detailed description of his movements on the night, including the fact he had picked up his own two-year-old daughter from a crčche close to where Madeleine vanished.

But his ‘alibi’ was only looked at this year.

Following Madeleine’s disappearance, Leicestershire police were responsible for collating all UK-based inquiries at the request of the Portuguese authorities.

Leicestershire Police yesterday refused to comment on the latest revelations.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/editors-picks/madeleine-mccann-bungling-police-prime-2965027

DCI Redwood said in October: “Our focus in terms of understanding what happened on the night of May 3 has now given us a shift of emphasis. We are almost certain that the man seen by Jane Tanner is not Madeleine’s abductor.

“It takes us through to a position at 10pm when we see another man who is walking towards the ocean, close by to the apartment, with a young child in his arms.”
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 22, 2019, 08:18:30 PM
Bungling police had the details of the “main suspect” in the disappearance of Madeleine McCann for SIX YEARS without realising.

The innocent dad came forward in 2007 to say he was the person seen carrying a child in Portugal at the time the three-year-old vanished.

The unnamed dad – spotted in the Praia da Luz resort by McCann family friend Jane Tanner at 9.15pm – was among a number of British witnesses who completed questionnaires for Leicestershire police six years ago.

He is understood to have provided a detailed description of his movements on the night, including the fact he had picked up his own two-year-old daughter from a crčche close to where Madeleine vanished.

But his ‘alibi’ was only looked at this year.

Following Madeleine’s disappearance, Leicestershire police were responsible for collating all UK-based inquiries at the request of the Portuguese authorities.

Leicestershire Police yesterday refused to comment on the latest revelations.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/editors-picks/madeleine-mccann-bungling-police-prime-2965027

DCI Redwood said in October: “Our focus in terms of understanding what happened on the night of May 3 has now given us a shift of emphasis. We are almost certain that the man seen by Jane Tanner is not Madeleine’s abductor.

“It takes us through to a position at 10pm when we see another man who is walking towards the ocean, close by to the apartment, with a young child in his arms.”
Are you making a comment or just cut and pasting?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 22, 2019, 08:24:06 PM
The link is there. Click on it and you will know.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 22, 2019, 08:25:40 PM
The link is there. Click on it and you will know.
Answer my question please.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 22, 2019, 10:34:20 PM
just cut and pasting. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 22, 2019, 11:32:04 PM
Yes I cut the irrelevant bits out. What's the problem? It's all from the link and you should click on it to find out. Nothing is being hidden.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 23, 2019, 12:34:26 AM
Yes I cut the irrelevant bits out. What's the problem? It's all from the link and you should click on it to find out. Nothing is being hidden.

I think that is quite meaningless.  You might very well read something into a link that no-one else does ... in fact since everyone's thought processes are different that is almost a certainty.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 23, 2019, 08:16:03 AM
Allow me to refresh your memory with some more facts. Here's what the files tell us:
"So I walked back err from the tennis courts, err back to err you know Kate and Gerry's apartment and the time you know looking at, you know we've looked obviously at photographs since then and you know the time that we've got that I was you know going to Kate's about SIX THIRTY, err and I went into their apartment through the patio doors. The three children were all you know dressed you know in their pyjamas, you know they looked immaculate, you know they were just like angels, they all looked so happy and well looked after and content and I said to Kate, you know it's a bit early for the you know, for the three of them to be going to bed, she said ah they've had such a great time, they're really tired and you know err so I say, you know I can't remember exactly what, what you know the night attire, what the children were wearing but white was the predominant err colour, but you know just to reinforce they were just so happy, you know seeing you know obviously Gerry WASN'T THERE but they were just all."
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

Payne's statement is quite clear, he said he seen the missing child for the last time at 6.30 and Gerry was NOT there. DC Marshal's correspondence says equally clearly that Payne has written on a questionnaire that he seen the missing child at 17H00 and the missing child's father WAS there. There you have two completely different versions of the last time Mr Payne alleges he seen the missing child. FACTS. (CITES INCLUDED).
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/Gaspar.htm

I'll leave the unsupported beliefs, possibilities and wild guesses for the supporters. (NO CITES INCLUDED)

He worked out the time by looking at photograohs? Pull the other one imo.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 23, 2019, 08:33:27 AM
He worked out the time by looking at photograohs? Pull the other one imo.
You suspect him of lying about this minor detail then?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 23, 2019, 08:42:41 AM
Allow me to refresh your memory with some more facts. Here's what the files tell us:
"So I walked back err from the tennis courts, err back to err you know Kate and Gerry's apartment and the time you know looking at, you know we've looked obviously at photographs since then and you know the time that we've got that I was you know going to Kate's about SIX THIRTY, err and I went into their apartment through the patio doors. The three children were all you know dressed you know in their pyjamas, you know they looked immaculate, you know they were just like angels, they all looked so happy and well looked after and content and I said to Kate, you know it's a bit early for the you know, for the three of them to be going to bed, she said ah they've had such a great time, they're really tired and you know err so I say, you know I can't remember exactly what, what you know the night attire, what the children were wearing but white was the predominant err colour, but you know just to reinforce they were just so happy, you know seeing you know obviously Gerry WASN'T THERE but they were just all."
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

Payne's statement is quite clear, he said he seen the missing child for the last time at 6.30 and Gerry was NOT there. DC Marshal's correspondence says equally clearly that Payne has written on a questionnaire that he seen the missing child at 17H00 and the missing child's father WAS there. There you have two completely different versions of the last time Mr Payne alleges he seen the missing child. FACTS. (CITES INCLUDED).
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/Gaspar.htm

I'll leave the unsupported beliefs, possibilities and wild guesses for the supporters. (NO CITES INCLUDED)
You got that a bit wrong haven't you?   He was going to Kate's at 6:30 PM.  DP doesn't say that was the last time he sees Madeleine.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 23, 2019, 08:43:11 AM
Allow me to refresh your memory with some more facts. Here's what the files tell us:
"So I walked back err from the tennis courts, err back to err you know Kate and Gerry's apartment and the time you know looking at, you know we've looked obviously at photographs since then and you know the time that we've got that I was you know going to Kate's about SIX THIRTY, err and I went into their apartment through the patio doors. The three children were all you know dressed you know in their pyjamas, you know they looked immaculate, you know they were just like angels, they all looked so happy and well looked after and content and I said to Kate, you know it's a bit early for the you know, for the three of them to be going to bed, she said ah they've had such a great time, they're really tired and you know err so I say, you know I can't remember exactly what, what you know the night attire, what the children were wearing but white was the predominant err colour, but you know just to reinforce they were just so happy, you know seeing you know obviously Gerry WASN'T THERE but they were just all."
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

Payne's statement is quite clear, he said he seen the missing child for the last time at 6.30 and Gerry was NOT there. DC Marshal's correspondence says equally clearly that Payne has written on a questionnaire that he seen the missing child at 17H00 and the missing child's father WAS there. There you have two completely different versions of the last time Mr Payne alleges he seen the missing child. FACTS. (CITES INCLUDED).
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/Gaspar.htm

I'll leave the unsupported beliefs, possibilities and wild guesses for the supporters. (NO CITES INCLUDED)


There is more evidence to prove that David Payne was at the beach at that time.   It's all immaterial anyway,  OG went through all the papers.   They are investigating an abduction.   IMO
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 23, 2019, 09:33:37 AM
You suspect him of lying about this minor detail then?

He says 'we' looked at photos. Who was 'we'? Not him and his wife, she came up with an earlier timescale. She certainly disagrees with Gerry McCann who said DP was not on the tennis courts until 7 pm.

I got to the tennis courts to see him play tennis, so that would have been about half six and then he was playing tennis for that whole half an hour and, as I say, we left him playing tennis, when me and my mum went up to bath the kids and he, he didn't sort of return until after seven, ten past seven, quarter past seven....... I couldn't tell you times, but I know before he went, went to tennis, he popped in on Kate and the kids, erm, and saw them all in their pyjamas, ready for bed, having a story, before going to join for the tennis, so I can only assume that that was between, erm, you know, six and half past'
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

We know that Fiona was still at the Paraiso at 18:36, of course, so she didn't see her husband playing tennis from 18:30 until 19:00.


Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 23, 2019, 10:19:24 AM
He says 'we' looked at photos. Who was 'we'? Not him and his wife, she came up with an earlier timescale. She certainly disagrees with Gerry McCann who said DP was not on the tennis courts until 7 pm.

I got to the tennis courts to see him play tennis, so that would have been about half six and then he was playing tennis for that whole half an hour and, as I say, we left him playing tennis, when me and my mum went up to bath the kids and he, he didn't sort of return until after seven, ten past seven, quarter past seven....... I couldn't tell you times, but I know before he went, went to tennis, he popped in on Kate and the kids, erm, and saw them all in their pyjamas, ready for bed, having a story, before going to join for the tennis, so I can only assume that that was between, erm, you know, six and half past'
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

We know that Fiona was still at the Paraiso at 18:36, of course, so she didn't see her husband playing tennis from 18:30 until 19:00.

Fiona says this about the beach -   'I find hard, but, I mean, assuming we got to the beach about four o'clock, I'd say, you know, I'd say Matt must have got in, I'm sure it was Matt and Russ, about half four, erm, and then, about twenty minutes after that, maybe Dave. Erm, so by five o'clock we were all kind of ready to have a drink and feed the kids. Erm, so that, that group as a whole went up to the restaurant, erm, on the beach and ordered our, well the food for the kids, we didn't eat, and we all had a beer. Erm, so, yeah, I'd say about five'.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 23, 2019, 11:01:43 AM
Fiona says this about the beach -   'I find hard, but, I mean, assuming we got to the beach about four o'clock, I'd say, you know, I'd say Matt must have got in, I'm sure it was Matt and Russ, about half four, erm, and then, about twenty minutes after that, maybe Dave. Erm, so by five o'clock we were all kind of ready to have a drink and feed the kids. Erm, so that, that group as a whole went up to the restaurant, erm, on the beach and ordered our, well the food for the kids, we didn't eat, and we all had a beer. Erm, so, yeah, I'd say about five'.

At 5:31 Fiona, Dianne and Jane were at the Paraiso, which is 30 minutes after she thought.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PARAISO.htm

At 4:30, according to Cat Baker, Russell collected his daughter from the Mini Club;
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/CRECHE/Processo-pdf01-pages-107-111[105-109]/processopdf01page107-CrecheRecords3.jpg
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 23, 2019, 12:47:49 PM
I think if you read what I've posted you'll find it you who's got it wrong. I don't say DP said anything about it being the last time he seen the missing child, I said that bit for him, because it is.

You got a cite for another DP visit after 6.30? 

I rest my case, my Lord!
You wrote in your post "Payne's statement is quite clear, he said he seen the missing child for the last time at 6.30 and Gerry was NOT there."  But this sentence contains two statements of fact that were not in the statement you quoted.  If you are now saying that for him, it is no longer Payne's statement but your opinion.

If he was going to Kate's at 6:30, 6:30 becomes the time he first saw the kids.  How long did he stay?  Did he return later?  Those possible events would determine when he last saw the child.

If he only stayed 30 seconds he could arrive and leave at 6:30 PM then you would be right, but if he stayed longer or returned later I can't accept what you are saying as yet.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 23, 2019, 12:58:42 PM
What we suspect him of is immaterial, it's what the police supected him of.. and yes they suspected he was lying along with all the others. That what they thought, that's a fact and here's the cite and the selected portion.

"From the declarations of the group results a total incoherence, in the face of which it's obvious, that EVERYONE LIES." https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAVARES_ALMEIDA.htm

Sceptics are not responsible for the facts, it's the people who were there that are.
It was G-unit who said "He worked out the time by looking at photographs? Pull the other one imo."  What photos were they?  Were they the CCTV clips of the Tapas 7 in the Pariaso Restaurant?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 23, 2019, 01:03:35 PM
Yes Rob I'm saying it for him. If you've got another cite for another visit that proves the fact David Payne did not see the child for the last time at 6.30, then lets be having it?

If not it's the rubber ear list for you.

Time to put up or shut up, or get rubber eared. Take your pick, the rubber ear list suits me.
Rubber ear is a new expression for me.

So are you saying IYO DP left the McCann apartment at 6:30 PM? 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 23, 2019, 01:11:56 PM
But that's the whole point, it doesn't matter what it is any of them  are saying, Chief Inspector Tavares de Almeida statement means nothing the say can be taken for the truth because they concluded they were all lying.

For that reason you cannot safely accept anything they all say withhold confirmation.  That's a fact unless you have a tried and tested method to prove when they are telling the truth.

If Peter Hyatt can't do it, why should I believe you can?
You were the one saying 6:30 was the last time DP saw Madeleine.  Not me, but you.  If the CCTV showed the people in the restaurant there is a limit how early it could be. 

They may all make mistakes but they would hardly be lying about everything.  You do accept that DP did visit the McCann apartment don't you?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 23, 2019, 01:26:22 PM
I'm not talking about opinions, I'm talking about facts.
David Payne's statement says he left the apartment around 6.30 not me, that's a fact. My opinion has nothing to do with that.
DC Marshall's statement says David Payne had written on a questionnaire that "for the LAST TIME, at 17H00 on 3/5/07 in the McCann apartment. Also present there were Kate and Gerry". Again, those are facts, my opinion has nothing to do with that.

So DC Marshal says he did say it was the last time. What do you know, eh. Looks like I was right after all.
You can't be talking facts if you go along with Almeida and think everyone is lying.  You can accept what DP or Almeida is saying, and then it becomes your opinion (as in you agree).

It might be a fact that DC Marshall wrote those words, but whether he was right is debatable.

To me the times given don't add up.  Why they don't add up is the unknowable part.  Were they lying or did the translator get the times mixed up?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 23, 2019, 01:28:40 PM
I cannot accept anything from a group who the police concluded were all lying. You'd have to been mad to accept anything they said IMO.

Does that answer your question?

Hang on "You do accept that DP did visit the McCann apartment don't you?"
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 23, 2019, 01:36:13 PM
From my understanding of the Old Testament there's no way Moses would have employed a DIY baby listening service. He always had his children around him.
Moses was the baby who was cast into the Nile  abandoned to the elements, and he was found by the pharaoh's daughter who wanted a child of her own.  Hardly the best example of good child care IMO.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 23, 2019, 01:39:58 PM
Do you have proof that any Payne visit took place on May 3rd? If you've got that I'll accept it, if not forget it.
Gerry says he sent him to help Kate.
David admits going there.
Kate admits he was there.
Fiona accepts David went there.

If you can't accept that at some stage DP visited the apartment we've got problems? 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 23, 2019, 01:45:50 PM
I think that is quite meaningless.  You might very well read something into a link that no-one else does ... in fact since everyone's thought processes are different that is almost a certainty.

It contradicts your post from LP claiming that everything was handed over to PJ. So what happened to the Totman questionnaire when he said it was him carrying the child at the time Jane Tanner saw the man and child? The PJ certainly did not receive it in 2007. Amaral ruled that nonsense sighting out any way! LP cannot be trusted. The Gaspar statements should have been faxed as urgent to the PJ in May 2007. No excuse for that not happening!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 23, 2019, 01:54:16 PM
If you have a cite that DC Marshal couldn't read and write David Payne's answers down properly, let's be having it? Otherwise, you won't be debating it with me.
Oh I'm talking facts about Almeida alright, that's what his report says. I don't know what David Payne done, that's another fact so I accept the possibility that David Payne is lying because Almeida who was involved with the group directly or indirectly concluded they were all lying.

The times don't add up? You don't say. Gerry being there or not being there doesn't add up either.

That sums up the McCann's entire story - it doesn't add up.
Do you know what the word "cite" means?  "If you have a cite that DC Marshal couldn't read and write David Payne's answers down properly, let's be having it?"
Do you have a cite that proves the converse?

So Marshall says DP went to the McCann's apartment at 5 PM (17.00hrs) when both Gerry and Kate were there.
That is possible but the real question is did he return at around 6:30 PM.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 23, 2019, 02:03:46 PM
That's the reason why he was dead against DIY baby listening services, because he was abandoned himself.

Nobody knows what the missing child was put through quite like Moses. That's why I choose him.
Moses was more the up-market baby monitoring type.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 23, 2019, 02:11:22 PM
How did he manage that if DC Marshal says after carefully reading Payne's questionnaire, that it states "FOR THE LAST TIME, at 17H00 on 3/5/07 in the McCann apartment. Also present there were Kate and Gerry?"

I don't have a cite for the converse but here's a cite for DC Marshal's account of the converse.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/Gaspar.htm
How did he manage it?  Easy he wasn't told of the later visit. Did DC Marshall also get to read DP's two statements?  Maybe the PJ hadn't told  DC Marshall about those.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 23, 2019, 02:14:31 PM
It was G-unit who said "He worked out the time by looking at photographs? Pull the other one imo."  What photos were they?  Were they the CCTV clips of the Tapas 7 in the Pariaso Restaurant?

DP said that in his rogatory interview. Obviously he didn't have access to the Paraiso CCTV images, the PJ had them. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 23, 2019, 02:16:03 PM
DP said that in his rogatory interview. Obviously he didn't have access to the Paraiso CCTV images, the PJ had them.
What photos then?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 23, 2019, 02:22:30 PM
What photos then?

He doesn't elaborate. I expect they were his own.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 23, 2019, 02:29:41 PM
How could Payne manage I meant, according DC Marshal David Payne has written sometime before October 24, 2007 that the LAST VISIT he made to the apartment was at 17H00, both present there were Kate AND Gerry.
 
On 11.04.08 David Payne's statement gives us a completely different version of the LAST TIME HE SEEN the missing child alive. It has to be the last time, because he has already seen for the last time at 17H00 according to DC Marshal.
"So I walked back err from the tennis courts, err back to err you know Kate and Gerry's apartment and the time you know looking at, you know we've looked obviously at photographs since then and you know the time that we've got that I was you know going to Kate's about SIX THIRTY, err and I went into their apartment through the patio doors. The three children were all you know dressed you know in their pyjamas, you know they looked immaculate, you know they were just like angels, they all looked so happy and well looked after and content and I said to Kate, you know it's a bit early for the you know, for the three of them to be going to bed, she said ah they've had such a great time, they're really tired and you know err so I say, you know I can't remember exactly what, what you know the night attire, what the children were wearing but white was the predominant err colour, but you know just to reinforce they were just so happy, you know seeing you know obviously GERRY WASN'T THERE but they were just all."
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

Easy? I'll crack the jokes from now on.
I'm getting tired now as it is 1:30 AM here.  But you have proved my point.  DC Marshall may not have seen DP statements made to the PJ.  He only has the questionnaire answers to work from.

The rogatory statement is written a year later, so you can't use that either.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 23, 2019, 06:06:11 PM
How could Payne manage I meant, according DC Marshal David Payne has written sometime before October 24, 2007 that the LAST VISIT he made to the apartment was at 17H00, both present there were Kate AND Gerry.
 
On 11.04.08 David Payne's statement gives us a completely different version of the LAST TIME HE SEEN the missing child alive. It has to be the last time, because he has already seen for the last time at 17H00 according to DC Marshal.
"So I walked back err from the tennis courts, err back to err you know Kate and Gerry's apartment and the time you know looking at, you know we've looked obviously at photographs since then and you know the time that we've got that I was you know going to Kate's about SIX THIRTY, err and I went into their apartment through the patio doors. The three children were all you know dressed you know in their pyjamas, you know they looked immaculate, you know they were just like angels, they all looked so happy and well looked after and content and I said to Kate, you know it's a bit early for the you know, for the three of them to be going to bed, she said ah they've had such a great time, they're really tired and you know err so I say, you know I can't remember exactly what, what you know the night attire, what the children were wearing but white was the predominant err colour, but you know just to reinforce they were just so happy, you know seeing you know obviously GERRY WASN'T THERE but they were just all."
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

Easy? I'll crack the jokes from now on.

He couldn't have seen Madeleine for the last time at 5 o'clock as he was still at the beach.   

David Payne -   00:36:24 Reply "I mean again, we've you know, we've chatted about the timings and everything and you know looked at the photographs and you know, you know we were leaving about quarter past six from the err restaurant, we'd gotta walk up there, ten, fifteen minutes, conversation with Gerry, conversation with Kate, you know that's another five, ten minutes on to your ten, fifteen minutes walk so you're talking twenty five minutes, so that's taken you to twenty five to, twenty to seven, well you know we were certainly playing tennis for a, you know the best part of an hour err so you know it couldn't have been long that I was in the apartment, you know a matter of minutes.'

Marshall has got it wrong or David Payne,  whichever way you look at it David Payne was at the beach,  all the friends say he was.   IMO
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 23, 2019, 06:53:42 PM
He couldn't have seen Madeleine for the last time at 5 o'clock as he was still at the beach.   

David Payne -   00:36:24 Reply "I mean again, we've you know, we've chatted about the timings and everything and you know looked at the photographs and you know, you know we were leaving about quarter past six from the err restaurant, we'd gotta walk up there, ten, fifteen minutes, conversation with Gerry, conversation with Kate, you know that's another five, ten minutes on to your ten, fifteen minutes walk so you're talking twenty five minutes, so that's taken you to twenty five to, twenty to seven, well you know we were certainly playing tennis for a, you know the best part of an hour err so you know it couldn't have been long that I was in the apartment, you know a matter of minutes.'

Marshall has got it wrong or David Payne,  whichever way you look at it David Payne was at the beach,  all the friends say he was.   IMO

So either DP filled his questionnaire out wrongly, Marshall didn't read it as carefully as he said he did, the translator was useless OR the questionnaire said what Marshall said it did.

In my opinion the statements of the T7 leave a lot to be desired. Fiona Payne said her husband finished playing tennis at 19:10, he is saying 19:40. That's a big difference.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 23, 2019, 06:57:48 PM
So either DP filled his questionnaire out wrongly, Marshall didn't read it as carefully as he said he did, the translator was useless OR the questionnaire said what Marshall said it did.

In my opinion the statements of the T7 leave a lot to be desired. Fiona Payne said her husband finished playing tennis at 19:10, he is saying 19:40. That's a big difference.


Indeed, and in my opinion, intentionally so .
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: misty on May 23, 2019, 09:41:22 PM
Madeleine wasn't signed out of the creche until 5.30pm i.e. released from the care of MW nannies. How could she have possibly been in 5A with her parents at 5pm?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 23, 2019, 09:45:34 PM
He says 'we' looked at photos. Who was 'we'? Not him and his wife, she came up with an earlier timescale. She certainly disagrees with Gerry McCann who said DP was not on the tennis courts until 7 pm.

I got to the tennis courts to see him play tennis, so that would have been about half six and then he was playing tennis for that whole half an hour and, as I say, we left him playing tennis, when me and my mum went up to bath the kids and he, he didn't sort of return until after seven, ten past seven, quarter past seven....... I couldn't tell you times, but I know before he went, went to tennis, he popped in on Kate and the kids, erm, and saw them all in their pyjamas, ready for bed, having a story, before going to join for the tennis, so I can only assume that that was between, erm, you know, six and half past'
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

We know that Fiona was still at the Paraiso at 18:36, of course, so she didn't see her husband playing tennis from 18:30 until 19:00.
I repeat: you suspect him of lying about this minor detail?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 23, 2019, 10:29:37 PM
You're right, it must be getting late. DC Marshal definitely did NOT see DP's second statement. He couldn't because David Payne didn't give it for another almost SIX months. His first statement makes no mention of any visit to any apartment whatsoever.
And you're right David Payne hasn't got a statement from later in May as the other members of his family did.
"DAVID PAYNE 04 MAY 07 STATEMENT
DAVID PAYNE 11 APRIL 2008 ROGATORY
DIANNE WEBSTER 04 MAY 07 STATEMENT
DIANNE WEBSTER 11 MAY 07 STATEMENT
DIANNE WEBSTER 11 APRIL 08 ROGATORY
FIONA PAYNE 04 MAY 07 STATEMENT
FIONA ELAINE PAYNE 16 05 07 STATEMENT
FIONA PAYNE 10 APRIL 08 ROGATORY"

You'd wonder why that was.  Both David and Kate seem to be the ones who miss out on giving second statements in May.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Carana on May 24, 2019, 06:29:21 AM
Fairly sure Google Translate would routinely spit out Klingon insults in 2007 as it was in it's infancy.
You wouldn't be able to translate conversation French at that point, never mind a Portuguese witness statement.

I agree that google translate itself was in its infancy, but automatic translation software has existed since sometimes back in the latter half of the 90s.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Carana on May 24, 2019, 06:39:51 AM
Marshall was reading a questionnaire written and answered in what I assume was his native language; English.

That's not my impression. Who on earth would write "the husband arrived" in English?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 24, 2019, 07:23:56 AM
I repeat: you suspect him of lying about this minor detail?

What minor detail?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 24, 2019, 07:26:22 AM
And you're right David Payne hasn't got a statement from later in May as the other members of his family did.
"DAVID PAYNE 04 MAY 07 STATEMENT
DAVID PAYNE 11 APRIL 2008 ROGATORY
DIANNE WEBSTER 04 MAY 07 STATEMENT
DIANNE WEBSTER 11 MAY 07 STATEMENT
DIANNE WEBSTER 11 APRIL 08 ROGATORY
FIONA PAYNE 04 MAY 07 STATEMENT
FIONA ELAINE PAYNE 16 05 07 STATEMENT
FIONA PAYNE 10 APRIL 08 ROGATORY"

You'd wonder why that was.  Both David and Kate seem to be the ones who miss out on giving second statements in May.

Fiona also.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 24, 2019, 07:32:00 AM
What minor detail?
referring to photos to work out where he was at what time.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 24, 2019, 07:58:57 AM
I agree that google translate itself was in its infancy, but automatic translation software has existed since sometimes back in the latter half of the 90s.
I don't doubt it, but you did specifically state 'Google translation'.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 24, 2019, 08:01:42 AM
And you're right David Payne hasn't got a statement from later in May as the other members of his family did.
"DAVID PAYNE 04 MAY 07 STATEMENT
DAVID PAYNE 11 APRIL 2008 ROGATORY
DIANNE WEBSTER 04 MAY 07 STATEMENT
DIANNE WEBSTER 11 MAY 07 STATEMENT
DIANNE WEBSTER 11 APRIL 08 ROGATORY
FIONA PAYNE 04 MAY 07 STATEMENT
FIONA ELAINE PAYNE 16 05 07 STATEMENT
FIONA PAYNE 10 APRIL 08 ROGATORY"

You'd wonder why that was.  Both David and Kate seem to be the ones who miss out on giving second statements in May.
Maybe they refused. They weren't exactly under caution. They could just tell them to foxtrot oscar.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 24, 2019, 08:08:40 AM
Not quite:
We don't have to wonder about why there is no second statement for Kate. According to her, Alan Pike was concerned about her wellbeing. Madeleine's wellbeing, as usual taking second place to that of the McCann's, wellbeing. That's my opinion of it.

Kate McCann: "Alan Pike was concerned about my wellbeing and asked for my rescheduled interview to be postponed for a few days. The PJ couldn’t have considered it all that important: it was 6 September before I was interviewed again. 36".

She has also said in her book that "By the Sunday evening we found ourselves giving our statements again, this time to a couple of detectives from Control Risks. We were concerned that parts of the statements we had made to the Portuguese police , especially on that first day, might have been lost in translation. We also felt that these accounts were not particularly thorough and wanted to have every detail we could remember registered properly".

As you can see for yourself, Kate couldn't have considered it that important either. So concerned was she, that she let Alan Pike effectively draw her up a sicknote in order NOT to get every detail she could remember registered properly. Clever, eh?

They think we're all mugs IMO. In my opinion you'd need to be.

That just leaves David Payne. Whether the PJ have withheld a second David Payne statement is not known. It's unlikely Alan Pike would have drawn him up a sicknote, IMO.
So the last 'external' witness to apparently see Madeleine alive was either not re-interviewed, refused to be re-interviewed or the statement has been withheld? Is there a possibility that he was re-interviewed under caution?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 24, 2019, 08:34:21 AM
You tell me?
Probably not.
Why were the second round of interviews released to the public in the first place?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 24, 2019, 08:39:55 AM
referring to photos to work out where he was at what time.

He didn't do it alone, he says 'we'. None of the others relied on photos, they remembered the discussion at the Paraiso about the time.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 24, 2019, 08:47:37 AM
          Where does the current discussion feature in Mark Saunokonoko's podcast ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 24, 2019, 08:54:12 AM
He didn't do it alone, he says 'we'. None of the others relied on photos, they remembered the discussion at the Paraiso about the time.
Hw do you know none of the others relied on photos?  Just because they may have omitted to mention this minor detail doesn’t make DP a liar does it?  Once again I ask you: do you suspect Payne of lying about this minor detail?  I take it from all your replies so far that you do, however I know you don’t like me to make assumptions about your beliefs so now is your opportunity to put me straight.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 24, 2019, 09:03:55 AM
Which one?

Hard to tell the difference ... but I think the current variant has been rumbling around for at least a couple of days.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 24, 2019, 09:10:25 AM
Hw do you know none of the others relied on photos?  Just because they may have omitted to mention this minor detail doesn’t make DP a liar does it?  Once again I ask you: do you suspect Payne of lying about this minor detail?  I take it from all your replies so far that you do, however I know you don’t like me to make assumptions about your beliefs so now is your opportunity to put me straight.

It doesn't make sense in my opinion, but it's not important. What is important is his apparent change of story. How did he go from seeing Madeleine in 5A with both parents to seeing her with one parent and her siblings?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 24, 2019, 09:19:33 AM
It doesn't make sense in my opinion, but it's not important. What is important is his apparent change of story. How did he go from seeing Madeleine in 5A with both parents to seeing her with one parent and her siblings?
As discussed in Mark's podcast, right?
Playing Devil's Advocate, one could argue that DP would be fully aware of such a significant change in statement and the perception of that change - but did it anyway. All of these revisions are now just examples of poor investigation. Why didn't they refer back to previous statements when forming the questions for the 2nd one?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 24, 2019, 09:35:49 AM
Why have all my posts disappeared?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 24, 2019, 09:44:31 AM
Why have all my posts disappeared?
Yeh, welcome to my world.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 24, 2019, 10:06:19 AM
Why have all my posts disappeared?

Have they?  I have no knowledge or indication of this.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 24, 2019, 10:43:09 AM
Yeh, welcome to my world.

A classic by Jim Reeves.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 24, 2019, 10:51:46 AM
A classic by Jim Reeves.
Quite apt actually.....'Knock and the door will open; seek and you will find; ask and you'll be given'
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 24, 2019, 10:59:10 AM
Have they?  I have no knowledge or indication of this.

All of my posts have been deleted Eleanor,   I was discussing the statement by David Payne with Cheeky Monkey, but my posts have all gone.   Don't know if I want to carry on the discussion now.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Carana on May 24, 2019, 11:09:48 AM
I don't doubt it, but you did specifically state 'Google translation'.

Yes, I did. I should have said automatic translation.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Carana on May 24, 2019, 11:11:52 AM
All of my posts have been deleted Eleanor,   I was discussing the statement by David Payne with Cheeky Monkey, but my posts have all gone.   Don't know if I want to carry on the discussion now.

Not sure which you mean, Lace. I can see your exchanges with CM.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: sadie on May 24, 2019, 11:14:42 AM
All of my posts have been deleted Eleanor,   I was discussing the statement by David Payne with Cheeky Monkey, but my posts have all gone.   Don't know if I want to carry on the discussion now.

I can understand that Lace.  I know how I used to feel when it constantly happened to me.

At least the poster should be advised if their post is removed

And what ever happened to the so called "Freedom of Speech" that  some on here have been known to  harp on about ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 24, 2019, 11:21:28 AM
I can understand that Lace.  I know how I used to feel when it constantly happened to me.

At least the poster should be advised if their post is removed

And what ever happened to the so called "Freedom of Speech" that  some on here have been known to  harp on about ?
Happened to me a lot too. No notice, just a sneaky delete.
This is my Winston Smith diary.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Carana on May 24, 2019, 11:22:53 AM
IMO it would in all likelihood have been the same English police officer who went on to immediately add,
"it is not clear which husband she refers to.

Her responses to the questions are vague. She continued to respond to questions with "they conform with my earlier deposition" or some similar statement".

Who else was going to be in a position to think that is what Fiona Payne had written on her questionnaire?

A translator? OK then, if that's what you think.

People wouldn't normally say "deposition" in English, either, would they?

As they don't appear to be in the files, it's hard to judge. It really doesn't sound as if what he was reading was in normal English.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 24, 2019, 11:24:56 AM
Happened to me a lot too. No notice, just a sneaky delete.
This is my Winston Smith diary.

There is nothing sneaky about deletions of comments that break Forum Rules.

Moderators are not obliged to inform anyone of this.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 24, 2019, 11:29:24 AM
There is nothing sneaky about deletions of comments that break Forum Rules.

Moderators are not obliged to inform anyone of this.
It is sneaky because you're not obliged to inform.
Despite my commenting on it, I'm not arsed. I never post anything of any substance anyway. I'm a peripheral poster  with a penchant for puns and prose and no pertinent points.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 24, 2019, 11:30:57 AM
It is sneaky because you're not obliged to inform.
Despite my commenting on it, I'm not arsed. I never post anything of any substance anyway. I'm a peripheral poster  with a penchant for puns and prose and no pertinent points.

Perhaps that's why.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 24, 2019, 11:39:38 AM
People wouldn't normally say "deposition" in English, either, would they?

As they don't appear to be in the files, it's hard to judge. It really doesn't sound as if what he was reading was in normal English.

Marshall wasn't reading a translated document, but you are. (That's your cue to cast aspersions on the translators btw)
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 24, 2019, 11:42:42 AM
Perhaps that's why.
I agree. The deletion is of no concern; we're not deliberating quantum mechanics here. The manner of deletion is. It's surreptitious by its very nature, as you have pointed out - you are 'not obliged' to inform.

Anyway, I'm off back to nibbling at the periphery.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 24, 2019, 11:44:36 AM
There is nothing sneaky about deletions of comments that break Forum Rules.

Moderators are not obliged to inform anyone of this.

Quite often a perfectly reasonable post is unfortunately deleted if it is in response to a post which itself later gets deleted. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Carana on May 24, 2019, 12:05:18 PM
Marshall wasn't reading a translated document, but you are. (That's your cue to cast aspersions on the translators byw)

LOL

Ok about deposition, but not about "the husband". And, yes, I checked the PT original, which is itself a translation of his reply, but there's no way of knowing what on earth he was given to comment on.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 24, 2019, 12:11:03 PM
LOL

Ok about deposition, but not about "the husband". And, yes, I checked the PT original, which is itself a translation of his reply, but there's no way of knowing what on earth he was given to comment on.

He was commenting on DP's answers to the questionnaire sent out by LP, unless you think he was lying?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 24, 2019, 12:29:25 PM
 8()-000(    Ok apologies all round.   I didn't look back enough,  my posts are still there  a big  *%^^& to all.

My only defence is that I am not well at the moment  8(8-))
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: sadie on May 24, 2019, 12:39:45 PM
Not sure which you mean, Lace. I can see your exchanges with CM.
What is CM please, Carana?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Carana on May 24, 2019, 12:40:39 PM
He was commenting on DP's answers to the questionnaire sent out by LP, unless you think he was lying?

No, I don't see any reason why he would lie. He sounds more confused.

Did LP send out questionnaires? If so, when?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Carana on May 24, 2019, 12:41:44 PM
What is CM please, Carana?

Cheeky Monkey. Who I presume isn't Clarence Mitchell. LOL
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 24, 2019, 01:00:54 PM
Fiona also.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE_16_05-07.htm  plus the Rogatory and the early one http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE.htm

So that is 3 statements from Fiona. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 24, 2019, 01:05:11 PM
Maybe they refused. They weren't exactly under caution. They could just tell them to foxtrot oscar.
Under the rules of witness statement they can't refuse. They have to answer every question.  We covered this year or more ago.  Only if they declare themselves an arguido can they refuse to answer as I understand.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 24, 2019, 01:13:17 PM
8()-000(    Ok apologies all round.   I didn't look back enough,  my posts are still there  a big  *%^^& to all.

My only defence is that I am not well at the moment  8(8-))
If you click on your name you can click show posts 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 24, 2019, 01:18:50 PM
Under the rules of witness statement they can't refuse. They have to answer every question.  We covered this year or more ago.  Only if they declare themselves an arguido can they refuse to answer as I understand.
I meant they could refuse to give a statement.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 24, 2019, 01:21:45 PM
I meant they could refuse to give a statement.
They would automatically be treated as an arguido, then get some rough treatment.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 24, 2019, 01:24:37 PM
No, I don't see any reason why he would lie. He sounds more confused.

Did LP send out questionnaires? If so, when?

Yes. Before 24th October 2007.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 24, 2019, 01:27:05 PM
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE_16_05-07.htm  plus the Rogatory and the early one http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE.htm

So that is 3 statements from Fiona.

The second one was her statement about Murat.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 24, 2019, 01:28:29 PM
They would automatically be treated as an arguido, then get some rough treatment.
Rough treatment like being asked a load of questions, being allowed to refuse to answer, as is their right, let go and return home?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 24, 2019, 01:31:33 PM
I agree. The deletion is of no concern; we're not deliberating quantum mechanics here. The manner of deletion is. It's surreptitious by its very nature, as you have pointed out - you are 'not obliged' to inform.

Anyway, I'm off back to nibbling at the periphery.

This was authorised by John.  Explaining leads to dissension.  And since John has the last word on all deletions the responsibility lies with him.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 24, 2019, 01:34:34 PM
This was authorised by John.  Explaining leads to dissension.  And since John has the last word on all deletions the responsibility lies with him.
I understand. Thanks for the response.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 24, 2019, 01:48:59 PM
Rough treatment like being asked a load of questions, being allowed to refuse to answer, as is their right, let go and return home?
Maybe even a little bruising.  Self inflicted of course.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 24, 2019, 01:56:47 PM
It doesn't make sense in my opinion, but it's not important. What is important is his apparent change of story. How did he go from seeing Madeleine in 5A with both parents to seeing her with one parent and her siblings?
He didn’t of course, it doesn’t mean he’s a liar as there are other more plausible explanations, already discussed.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 24, 2019, 02:21:23 PM
He didn’t of course, it doesn’t mean he’s a liar as there are other more plausible explanations, already discussed.

'He didn't of course' is your opinion. Your opinon is contraducted by the evidence and your plausible explanations are merely supposition.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 24, 2019, 02:35:54 PM
He's either a liar (my opinion) or completely confused (your opinion). Or DC Marshal couldn't read and write properly, despite his declaration that he did in fact read it carefully.

Either way, Payne's evidence regarding the last two times he seen the missing child in my opinion is worthless and calls into question if he ever seen the child alive in the first place. 

Jimmy the abductor, eat your heart out.

Catch ya later, alligator.  Or in a while crocodile. If you're anything like Payne you'll like two options.  8(0(*

All of the supposed evidence against The McCanns is worthless.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 24, 2019, 03:17:58 PM
8()-000(    Ok apologies all round.   I didn't look back enough,  my posts are still there  a big  *%^^& to all.

My only defence is that I am not well at the moment  8(8-))

 8(8-))
Hoping you soon feel better.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 24, 2019, 03:18:46 PM
All of the supposed evidence against The McCanns is worthless.

Indeed.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 24, 2019, 03:37:46 PM
All of the supposed evidence against The McCanns is worthless.

Although only an expression of you opinion, I'm sure it must make you very happy.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 24, 2019, 03:39:07 PM
Although only an expression of you opinion, I'm sure it must make you very happy.

You mean The McCanns have been arrested and charged?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 24, 2019, 03:45:37 PM
You mean The McCanns have been arrested and charged?

Did I suggest that? No of course I didn't - just you making things up.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 24, 2019, 03:53:42 PM
Did I suggest that? No of course I didn't - just you making things up.

If you can't take it to Court then it is worthless.  And you are much better at making things up than I am.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 24, 2019, 04:05:53 PM
If you can't take it to Court then it is worthless.  And you are much better at making things up than I am.

I doubt you can find an example of anything I have made up.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 24, 2019, 04:19:25 PM
I doubt you can find an example of anything I have made up.

So you aren't sure then?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 24, 2019, 04:31:03 PM
So you aren't sure then?

I cannot remember each and every one of my ten and a half thousand posts, so I can't be 100% sure, but as the one making the accusation, It's up to you to find it.  8)--))
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 24, 2019, 04:34:59 PM
I cannot remember each and every one of my ten and a half thousand posts, so I can't be 100% sure, but as the one making the accusation, It's up to you to find it.  8)--))

Thank you for that honest answer.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 24, 2019, 07:15:30 PM
What about all that evidence against Jimmy the abductor? It's not exactly turned out to be priceless if you're being honest. Whooshing curtains and all. 

Hopefully they'll have tracked him down by the time I get back on Monday.  8)-)))

Some people think there's evidence of an abduction. I was surprised to find that Martin Brunt usn't one of them.

"it’s the only case that I’ve ever covered – and it’s not unique, I’m told, but it’s the only case I ever covered – where there’s not a shred of evidence of anything. There’s no trail of evidence. And coppers will talk about how, on their investigations, they follow the evidence. There’s no evidence to follow. There’snothing that’s ever been
corroborated as firm evidence.
Page 14 https://www.mediamasters.fm/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Media-Masters_Martin-Brunt-Podcast-Transcript.pdf
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 24, 2019, 07:21:30 PM
Some people think there's evidence of an abduction. I was surprised to find that Martin Brunt usn't one of them.

"it’s the only case that I’ve ever covered – and it’s not unique, I’m told, but it’s the only case I ever covered – where there’s not a shred of evidence of anything. There’s no trail of evidence. And coppers will talk about how, on their investigations, they follow the evidence. There’s no evidence to follow. There’snothing that’s ever been
corroborated as firm evidence.
Page 14 https://www.mediamasters.fm/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Media-Masters_Martin-Brunt-Podcast-Transcript.pdf

And no evidence of Madeleine's parents being complicit in her disappearance.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 24, 2019, 07:26:32 PM
Some people think there's evidence of an abduction. I was surprised to find that Martin Brunt usn't one of them.

"it’s the only case that I’ve ever covered – and it’s not unique, I’m told, but it’s the only case I ever covered – where there’s not a shred of evidence of anything. There’s no trail of evidence. And coppers will talk about how, on their investigations, they follow the evidence. There’s no evidence to follow. There’snothing that’s ever been
corroborated as firm evidence.
Page 14 https://www.mediamasters.fm/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Media-Masters_Martin-Brunt-Podcast-Transcript.pdf
He does believe the McCanns are victims of unprecedented abuse online though.
“They are a couple, Kate and Gerry, who haven’t really had much engagement with the media, and there are obvious reasons for that, and there’s no reason why we should expect them to. But they have been more vilified online particularly than anybody I can ever think of. I did an exposé of the sort of stuff that was said and written about them online, it was extraordinary”.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 24, 2019, 07:32:08 PM
And no evidence of Madeleine's parents being complicit in her disappearance.

Until we know what crime has been commited we cannot assume the parents are not complicit, however, if you wish to believe of abduction  as per parents story-then you must also accept the parents facilitated the situation. i.e responsible for her fate whatever that is.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 24, 2019, 07:46:05 PM
And no evidence of Madeleine's parents being complicit in her disappearance.

No evidence that they're not either.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 24, 2019, 07:46:46 PM
Until we know what crime has been commited we cannot assume the parents are not complicit, however, if you wish to believe of abduction  as per parents story-then you must also accept the parents facilitated the situation. i.e responsible for her fate whatever that is.

Much the same as other parents have done.
How they all must regret their decision which led to the opportunity for an evil person to abduct their child.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 24, 2019, 07:47:12 PM
No evidence that they're not either.

But no evidence they are.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 24, 2019, 07:50:01 PM
He does believe the McCanns are victims of unprecedented abuse online though.
“They are a couple, Kate and Gerry, who haven’t really had much engagement with the media, and there are obvious reasons for that, and there’s no reason why we should expect them to. But they have been more vilified online particularly than anybody I can ever think of. I did an exposé of the sort of stuff that was said and written about them online, it was extraordinary”.

His expose wasn't one of his better ideas.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 24, 2019, 07:51:05 PM
Much the same as other parents have done.
How they all must regret their decision which led to the opportunity for an evil person to abduct their child.

Not much the same at all. Nothing like it.  There was EVIDENCE for the other abductions.  The McCanns went straight into PR- self protection. and tried to ruin the reputations of those who sought to find their daughter.  Nothing like it at all.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 24, 2019, 08:03:35 PM
His expose wasn't one of his better ideas.
Why not?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 24, 2019, 08:21:41 PM
Not much the same at all. Nothing like it.  There was EVIDENCE for the other abductions.  The McCanns went straight into PR- self protection. and tried to ruin the reputations of those who sought to find their daughter.  Nothing like it at all.

All in your opinion obviously.
I was responding to your post.
You have as usual deflected, grown wings to the post and flown away into your usual hyperbolic rant.
In my opinion.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 24, 2019, 08:25:25 PM
All in your opinion obviously.
I was responding to your post.
You have as usual deflected, grown wings to the post and flown away into your usual hyperbolic rant.
In my opinion.

You aren't wrong.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 24, 2019, 08:34:45 PM
Some people think there's evidence of an abduction. I was surprised to find that Martin Brunt usn't one of them.

"it’s the only case that I’ve ever covered – and it’s not unique, I’m told, but it’s the only case I ever covered – where there’s not a shred of evidence of anything. There’s no trail of evidence. And coppers will talk about how, on their investigations, they follow the evidence. There’s no evidence to follow. There’snothing that’s ever been
corroborated as firm evidence.
Page 14 https://www.mediamasters.fm/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Media-Masters_Martin-Brunt-Podcast-Transcript.pdf

Thanks for this.  It may prove to be useful in one of my upcoming blog articles.   *&(+(+
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 24, 2019, 08:53:05 PM
He's either a liar (my opinion) or completely confused (your opinion). Or DC Marshal couldn't read and write properly, despite his declaration that he did in fact read it carefully.

Either way, Payne's evidence regarding the last two times he seen the missing child in my opinion is worthless and calls into question if he ever seen the child alive in the first place. 

Jimmy the abductor, eat your heart out.

Catch ya later, alligator.  Or in a while crocodile. If you're anything like Payne you'll like two options.  8(0(*
Have you checked that there is not a hole in your net?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 24, 2019, 08:54:40 PM
Although only an expression of you opinion, I'm sure it must make you very happy.
I really hope that has made your day.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 24, 2019, 08:56:25 PM
If you can't take it to Court then it is worthless.  And you are much better at making things up than I am.
Ow - a bit of infighting in the ranks! 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 24, 2019, 09:01:54 PM
No evidence of anything!  Feels like we are still at the beginning.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 24, 2019, 09:17:53 PM
That is the sort of advice I get too.  It helps "ban yourself" for a few days or a week.  Keep calm.
You could have employed this technique during 'Ellipsegate'.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 24, 2019, 09:38:42 PM
You could have employed this technique during 'Ellipsegate'.
I had a week of calm the week before but the problem didn't go away.  Like a bad marriage, nothing much helps.

I knew what an ellipse was (well at least roughly) but I didn't know about an ellipsis. 

So it has to be ellipsisgate  not ellipsegate, I'm sorry to inform you of your misspelling.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 24, 2019, 09:54:37 PM
I had a week of calm the week before but the problem didn't go away.  Like a bad marriage, nothing much helps.

I knew what an ellipse was (well at least roughly) but I didn't know about an ellipsis. 

So it has to be ellipsisgate  not ellipsegate, I'm sorry to inform you of your misspelling.

if you understood what an ellipsis is....you would realise tht my use of them is perfectly good english grammar
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 24, 2019, 09:58:10 PM
if you understood what an ellipsis is....you would realise I dont use them...thats all I have to say on the matter
hmmm......
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 24, 2019, 09:59:55 PM
hmmm......

ive actually changed the post now having read another definition of an ellipsss...my use of it is perfectly proper
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 24, 2019, 10:03:11 PM
Ellipsis is the omission of a word or series of words. There are two slightly different definitions of ellipsis which are pertinent to literature. The first definition of ellipsis is the commonly used series of three dots, which can be place at the beginning, in the middle, or at the end of a sentence or clause. These three dots can stand in for whole sections of text that are omitted that do not change the overall meaning. The dots can also indicate a mysterious or unfinished thought, a leading sentence, or a pause or silence. This punctuation is also referred to as a suspension point, points of ellipsis, periods of ellipsis, or in speech may be called, “dot-dot-dot.”


In my posts I use it as  a pause....is perfectly good english grammar not acceptable on this forum

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 24, 2019, 10:07:11 PM
Utterly puerile censorship.
Wouldn't be so quick to censor a supporter. Give your head a wobble.

Sorry Rob.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 24, 2019, 10:09:06 PM
Rob, deleting my post is just plain pathetic.

Rob did not delete your post.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 24, 2019, 10:11:09 PM
Rob did not delete your post.
What is your problem? He can point out my grammar but I can't point out his?
Apologies Rob, I only saw one mod on.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 24, 2019, 10:59:58 PM
What is your problem? He can point out my grammar but I can't point out his?
Apologies Rob, I only saw one mod on.
I'm on here learning as we go.  I don't know much about grammar.  But I have learnt to spellcheck my typing.  I'll even go back and edit my post if I see that I failed.  So spelling to me is important.

If you see something wrong with my grammar please tell me. 

This week I learnt the word ellipsis.  I wonder if a sentence with more ellipsis-es (whatever the plural of ellipsis is) in it than words is perfectly correct English.

I've just Googled what the plural of ellipsis is: "Ellipses is the plural form of two different English words: Ellipse, a type of conic section in geometry. Ellipsis, a three-dot punctuation mark (…)"
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 24, 2019, 11:06:58 PM
I'm on here learning as we go.  I don't know much about grammar.  But I have learnt to spellcheck my typing.  I'll even go back and edit my post if I see that I failed.  So spelling to me is important.

If you see something wrong with my grammar please tell me. 

This week I learnt the word ellipsis.  I wonder if a sentence with more ellipsis-es (whatever the plural of ellipsis is) in it than words is perfectly correct English.

The plural is ellipses... It follows the Latin tristis... As all of us who studied Latin will know
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: sadie on May 24, 2019, 11:09:39 PM
I'm on here learning as we go.  I don't know much about grammar.  But I have learnt to spellcheck my typing.  I'll even go back and edit my post if I see that I failed.  So spelling to me is important.

If you see something wrong with my grammar please tell me. 

This week I learnt the word ellipsis.  I wonder if a sentence with more ellipsis-es (whatever the plural of ellipsis is) in it than words is perfectly correct English.
My spell check on here didn't work for the past couple or years.  Soz but I don't usually check spellings now.

Sadly I didn't study Latin, but I wasn't any good at languages, so I doubt that I would be good at that anyway.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 24, 2019, 11:11:24 PM
What is your problem? He can point out my grammar but I can't point out his?
Apologies Rob, I only saw one mod on.
I didn't get to see the post you are talking about.  If important you could private message me about it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 24, 2019, 11:14:57 PM
I'm on here learning as we go.  I don't know much about grammar.  But I have learnt to spellcheck my typing.  I'll even go back and edit my post if I see that I failed.  So spelling to me is important.

If you see something wrong with my grammar please tell me. 

This week I learnt the word ellipsis.  I wonder if a sentence with more ellipsis-es (whatever the plural of ellipsis is) in it than words is perfectly correct English.

I've just Googled what the plural of ellipsis is: "Ellipses is the plural form of two different English words: Ellipse, a type of conic section in geometry. Ellipsis, a three-dot punctuation mark (…)"
Mate, I tongue in cheek pointed out a few grammatical errors in your previous post, but it didn't pass muster with my shadow apparently, so it was culled. Never mind. Back to nibbling around the edges.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 24, 2019, 11:20:20 PM
I didn't get to see the post you are talking about.  If important you could private message me about it.
It's not important. Nothing I post here is of much importance, and that's not me being self-deprecating.
it was so innocuous the level of censorship is baffling, but not unexpected.
Suffice to say, this is not a fair game we are playing here - the dice are loaded.
I'm being censored by the internet's branch of the WRVS and the inherent humour is not lost on me. It's absurd.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 24, 2019, 11:26:57 PM
My spell check on here didn't work for the past couple or years.  Soz but I don't usually check spellings now.

Sadly I didn't study Latin, but I wasn't any good at languages, so I doubt that I would be good at that anyway.
That sort of reminded me of the trouble of becoming a veterinary scientist we had to learn all these Latin names for bones muscles, organisms, etc.   It was a mission and I must admit I never really mastered it.  It is a life time learning mission to me. 
I believe some careers need to be learnt from primary school days as a type of "early childhood education immersion program".   Why was I ever taught the song "there is a hole in my bucket" - the wasted time.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 25, 2019, 12:13:58 AM
That sort of reminded me of the trouble of becoming a veterinary scientist we had to learn all these Latin names for bones muscles, organisms, etc.   It was a mission and I must admit I never really mastered it.  It is a life time learning mission to me. 
I believe some careers need to be learnt from primary school days as a type of "early childhood education immersion program".   Why was I ever taught the song "there is a hole in my bucket" - the wasted time.

I disagree.

I learned Latin at school and absolutely hated it.  So I dropped as soon as I could.

Which is a shame as it permeates English, and is the basis for French, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian and Romanian.

One language bags you a handful.  Shame my Latin teacher never told me that.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 25, 2019, 10:14:35 AM
It's not important. Nothing I post here is of much importance, and that's not me being self-deprecating.
it was so innocuous the level of censorship is baffling, but not unexpected.
Suffice to say, this is not a fair game we are playing here - the dice are loaded.
I'm being censored by the internet's branch of the WRVS and the inherent humour is not lost on me. It's absurd.


That's entertainment! I do laugh out loud at some of the behaviour.  I do belief some posters keep the kleenex beside them as they get so distressed at any critiscism of the McCanns. Of course the McCanns being perfect in everyway, from the Mary Poppins school of parenting- they would NEVER critiscise anyone.. well apart from the police ( tweedle dee and Tweedle dum, and fking w@ krs)

Oh and the Mark Warners staff

um ah yes and the community for not searching- left them two alone to search they did.

and what about the bloody trolls (Brenda RIP)

The UK  media

The justice system

Portugual as a country (ECHR)


but, actually, apart from that no one really...


Oh forgot about thre dogs!!! but apart from that...
 @)(++(*



Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 25, 2019, 10:33:13 AM
That sort of reminded me of the trouble of becoming a veterinary scientist we had to learn all these Latin names for bones muscles, organisms, etc.   It was a mission and I must admit I never really mastered it.  It is a life time learning mission to me. 
I believe some careers need to be learnt from primary school days as a type of "early childhood education immersion program".   Why was I ever taught the song "there is a hole in my bucket" - the wasted time.

I was surprised to see a vet on a quiz programme who didn't know what Vulpes vulpes meant. I don't know Latin but I know which mammal that is.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 25, 2019, 11:00:16 AM
I was surprised to see a vet on a quiz programme who didn't know what Vulpes vulpes meant. I don't know Latin but I know which mammal that is.

I would have got the 'fox' bit ... but from the name alone I would never have guessed 'red'.  I don't find it at all strange that a quiz show contestant might have a momentary lapse taking into consideration the stress s/he may have been experiencing.

Why do you raise the issue on the Mark Saunokonoko thread ... was it in one of his podcasts?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 25, 2019, 11:24:25 AM
I would have got the 'fox' bit ... but from the name alone I would never have guessed 'red'.  I don't find it at all strange that a quiz show contestant might have a momentary lapse taking into consideration the stress s/he may have been experiencing.

Why do you raise the issue on the Mark Saunokonoko thread ... was it in one of his podcasts?

I'm very interested in wildlife, that's why. Perhaps vets just learn about domestic pets.

I was replying to a post by a moderator about the role of Latin, actually. Was that relevant to the thread, or is it just me who should stay on topic in your opinion?

I have been contemplating the role of one Joe Moura, actually, who did feature in the podcasts. I will post about him soon.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 25, 2019, 11:28:13 AM
I'm very interested in wildlife, that's why. Perhaps vets just learn about domestic pets.

I was replying to a post by a moderator about the role of Latin, actually. Was that relevant to the thread, or is it just me who should stay on topic in your opinion?

I have been contemplating the role of one Joe Moura, actually, who did feature in the podcasts. I will post about him soon.

  Well said.  8((()*/ 8@??)(
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 25, 2019, 11:34:30 AM
I'm very interested in wildlife, that's why. Perhaps vets just learn about domestic pets.

I was replying to a post by a moderator about the role of Latin, actually. Was that relevant to the thread, or is it just me who should stay on topic in your opinion?

I have been contemplating the role of one Joe Moura, actually, who did feature in the podcasts. I will post about him soon.
Think how this thread started most couldn't get their tongue around Mark Saunokonoko.  I'm sure Mark is right into correctness.  IMO There weren't too many things that he said that were in fact wrong.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 25, 2019, 03:51:48 PM
Think how this thread started most couldn't get their tongue around Mark Saunokonoko.  I'm sure Mark is right into correctness.  IMO There weren't too many things that he said that were in fact wrong.

I think the majority of the present flurry of Madeleine stories have their Genesis from the news desk of 9News and are hardly news since the basis for many appears to be the recounting of a failed police investigation and ignoring the changes and progress of the past few years in Madeleine's case.
In particular the current live investigations being conducted by the Policia Judiciaria and Scotland Yard.

As an exercise in news management I think it may be unsurpassed and without the chain of evidence leading directly back I think the 9News output must rank as one of the finest examples of dictating the agenda that I have ever witnessed.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 25, 2019, 04:58:08 PM
Portugal are the lead in this case and they have recently declared that the McCanns were never cleared.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 25, 2019, 05:24:44 PM
Portugal are the lead in this case and they have recently declared that the McCanns were never cleared.
They have also declared that the McCanns are not suspects, so - not cleared but not suspects. Clear?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 25, 2019, 05:39:39 PM

Both police forces have said the McCanns are not suspects, neither police force have said they didn't do it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 25, 2019, 05:43:05 PM
Both police forces have said the McCanns are not suspects, neither police force have said they didn't do it.
They haven’t said Murat didn’t do it either.... hmmmmmm....
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 25, 2019, 05:44:02 PM
They haven’t said Murat didn’t do it either.... hmmmmmm....

Yes, but they haven't had to say he's not a suspect, ergo, he didn't do it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 25, 2019, 05:48:49 PM
Yes, but they haven't had to say he's not a suspect, ergo, he didn't do it.

Crackers, much.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: sadie on May 25, 2019, 05:58:10 PM
deleted.  Soz, my mistake
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 25, 2019, 05:59:26 PM
ORLY? 

How do you know that?

Because it's obvious he didn't.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 25, 2019, 06:03:17 PM
Yes, but they haven't had to say he's not a suspect, ergo, he didn't do it.
Amazing logic.  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 25, 2019, 06:04:16 PM

Amazing logic.  @)(++(*

Glad you agree.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: sadie on May 25, 2019, 06:06:52 PM
Because it's obvious he didn't.
Wish I hadn't deleted my previous post now, cos you obviously think it is OK to guess.  Just as many on your side like to guess about Kate and Gerry
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 25, 2019, 06:15:51 PM
Glad you agree.
I agree that you’re a bit hard of thinking IMO, no offence.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 25, 2019, 06:53:05 PM
Mark Saunokonoko spoke to Joe Moura from Boston USA in the 'Missing Calls' podcast. He went to Luz in November 2007 at the request of CBS news in the US. His mission was to investigate the disappearance for 48 hours and a documentary was produced.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItbwWRSfcxw

Moura's conclusions were that Jane Tanner's story was 'erroneous'. probably because the Tapas staff told him that the group's account of their checking routine wasn't true. Moura, who speaks Portuguese, went to the Ocean Club as a guest for two weeks. He spent the first week hanging around the Tapas getting to know the staff. He claims they told him no-one left the table to check the children on 3rd May. He also states categorically that they couldn't see the patio doors from their table as they claimed.

His other conclusions are that the child is dead and that she was abducted.  He says the parents didn't have time to dispose of a body.

The Missing Calls beginning 1:28 https://omny.fm/shows/maddie/the-missing-calls?in_playlist=maddie!podcast



Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 25, 2019, 07:37:00 PM
Mark Saunokonoko spoke to Joe Moura from Boston USA in the 'Missing Calls' podcast. He went to Luz in November 2007 at the request of CBS news in the US. His mission was to investigate the disappearance for 48 hours and a documentary was produced.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItbwWRSfcxw

Moura's conclusions were that Jane Tanner's story was 'erroneous'. probably because the Tapas staff told him that the group's account of their checking routine wasn't true. Moura, who speaks Portuguese, went to the Ocean Club as a guest for two weeks. He spent the first week hanging around the Tapas getting to know the staff. He claims they told him no-one left the table to check the children on 3rd May. He also states categorically that they couldn't see the patio doors from their table as they claimed.

His other conclusions are that the child is dead and that she was abducted.  He says the parents didn't have time to dispose of a body.

The Missing Calls beginning 1:28 https://omny.fm/shows/maddie/the-missing-calls?in_playlist=maddie!podcast
Is Jim Moura claiming the Tapas staff lied in their statements? 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 25, 2019, 09:02:56 PM
Is Jim Moura claiming the Tapas staff lied in their statements?

At 4:10 in the podcast he refers to the barman and the waitresses. There were no waitresses at the Tapas, just waiters.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: sadie on May 25, 2019, 09:37:39 PM
At 4:10 in the podcast he refers to the barman and the waitresses. There were no waitresses at the Tapas, just waiters.

Not strictly a waitress, but as the kitchen was an open one within the restaurant, my bet is that she helped with the waiting  .. and a visitor might think her one
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 25, 2019, 09:45:44 PM
Not strictly a waitress, but as the kitchen was an open one within the restaurant, my bet is that she helped with the waiting  .. and a visitor might think her one

Waitresses plural he said. Where was the grill or grills, Sadie. do you remember?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: sadie on May 25, 2019, 09:58:31 PM
Waitresses plural he said. Where was the grill or grills, Sadie. do you remember?

There is a more comprehensive list than the one that I found.  Maybe it has been wiped as so much on the internet has been, or maybe I am too tired to look deeply.   I am not at all sure now, but I have an inkling that there was more than one female in the kitchen restaurant..

From my memory there was a grill/ Barbie on, or near the wall between the Tapas Restaurant and the next door Tapas Bar.  They were not one place but separate rooms, but very close


We were eating in the restaurant further from the cooking area rather than near it and I think that we had Spaghetti Bol … but it has been so long now.  We hadn't come for the food really; we had come for my amateur sleuthing.   I remember thinking that the food was tasty.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 25, 2019, 10:34:20 PM
There is a more comprehensive list than the one that I found.  Maybe it has been wiped as so much on the internet has been, or maybe I am too tired to look deeply.   I am not at all sure now, but I have an inkling that there was more than one female in the kitchen restaurant..

From my memory there was a grill/ Barbie on, or near the wall between the Tapas Restaurant and the next door Tapas Bar.  They were not one place but separate rooms, but very close


We were eating in the restaurant further from the cooking area rather than near it and I think that we had Spaghetti Bol … but it has been so long now.  We hadn't come for the food really; we had come for my amateur sleuthing.   I remember thinking that the food was tasty.

Thanks Sadie. I wonder if that's the wall where Jane Tanner said she put her baby monitor?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: sadie on May 25, 2019, 11:04:10 PM
Thanks Sadie. I wonder if that's the wall where Jane Tanner said she put her baby monitor?

I'm not aware of Jane Tanner having a baby monitor.  I thought only the Paynes used one.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 26, 2019, 01:16:28 AM
I'm not aware of Jane Tanner having a baby monitor.  I thought only the Paynes used one.
Jane had a baby monitor but the signal didn't carry for the distance to the Tapas restaurant.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 26, 2019, 09:20:05 AM
I'm not aware of Jane Tanner having a baby monitor.  I thought only the Paynes used one.

Here is Jane talking about it. Ir wasn't a wall she was putting it on after all;

the other nights I’d had the monitor behind me on sort of the ledge where the tarpaulin was
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.htm
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 26, 2019, 09:34:36 AM
There is a more comprehensive list than the one that I found.  Maybe it has been wiped as so much on the internet has been, or maybe I am too tired to look deeply.   I am not at all sure now, but I have an inkling that there was more than one female in the kitchen restaurant..

From my memory there was a grill/ Barbie on, or near the wall between the Tapas Restaurant and the next door Tapas Bar.  They were not one place but separate rooms, but very close


We were eating in the restaurant further from the cooking area rather than near it and I think that we had Spaghetti Bol … but it has been so long now.  We hadn't come for the food really; we had come for my amateur sleuthing.   I remember thinking that the food was tasty.

I ask because according to the kitchen assistant "During the times meals are served, she works outside the restaurant for some of the time, near to the grill...She can also say that she has an idea of the group that dined at a table at the Tapas esplanade, of nine adults
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SVETLANA_VITORINO.htm

I can never work out whether that esplanade was inside or outside the restaurant.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 26, 2019, 10:40:28 AM
I ask because according to the kitchen assistant "During the times meals are served, she works outside the restaurant for some of the time, near to the grill...She can also say that she has an idea of the group that dined at a table at the Tapas esplanade, of nine adults
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SVETLANA_VITORINO.htm

I can never work out whether that esplanade was inside or outside the restaurant.


I find Jose interview interesting as he is convinced Maddie was abducted- however, he doesn't give an explanation as to how this would have played out.  Abducted from the bed or the street?

 I am sure we can all agree (sceptics) there was a media mania scenario going on and competition to be the first with BIG breaks was encouraged by financial enducement. 

 It does seem strange that he didn't believe the tapas 9 had a structured checking schedule, Something I have been saying for a very long time! I have never sucumbed to the fact that the small window of opportunity  the McCanns claimed was a reliable timeframe to do what they claim an abductor did.

If they last had a phycial check on the children as they left for dinner then the time frame is a lot larger...seems that particular even the children had more checks than usual according to the Tapas 9.. not by the Tapas staff apparently.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 26, 2019, 11:15:02 AM

I find Jose interview interesting as he is convinced Maddie was abducted- however, he doesn't give an explanation as to how this would have played out.  Abducted from the bed or the street?

 I am sure we can all agree (sceptics) there was a media mania scenario going on and competition to be the first with BIG breaks was encouraged by financial enducement. 

 It does seem strange that he didn't believe the tapas 9 had a structured checking schedule, Something I have been saying for a very long time! I have never sucumbed to the fact that the small window of opportunity  the McCanns claimed was a reliable timeframe to do what they claim an abductor did.

If they last had a phycial check on the children as they left for dinner then the time frame is a lot larger...seems that particular even the children had more checks than usual according to the Tapas 9.. not by the Tapas staff apparently.
Why would the Tapas staff be checking on how often the parents checked the kids?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 26, 2019, 11:18:02 AM
Why would the Tapas staff be checking on how often the parents checked the kids?

Staff wouldn't be checking as such, I'm sure they'd keep a close eye on who was present and when - if only from a customer service point of view

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 26, 2019, 11:29:06 AM
Staff wouldn't be checking as such, I'm sure they'd keep a close eye on who was present and when - if only from a customer service point of view
Don't you think the staff were aware the kids were being left alone in the rooms while the parents dined?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 26, 2019, 11:32:21 AM

I find Jose interview interesting as he is convinced Maddie was abducted- however, he doesn't give an explanation as to how this would have played out.  Abducted from the bed or the street?

 I am sure we can all agree (sceptics) there was a media mania scenario going on and competition to be the first with BIG breaks was encouraged by financial enducement. 

 It does seem strange that he didn't believe the tapas 9 had a structured checking schedule, Something I have been saying for a very long time! I have never sucumbed to the fact that the small window of opportunity  the McCanns claimed was a reliable timeframe to do what they claim an abductor did.

If they last had a phycial check on the children as they left for dinner then the time frame is a lot larger...seems that particular even the children had more checks than usual according to the Tapas 9.. not by the Tapas staff apparently.

Jes Wilkins saw Gerry McCann between 8:45 and 9:15, but he wasn't able to confim that Gerry had been into 5A. The Tapas staff were spoken to the following day and said;

Svetlana; Gerry left for 30 minutes, then his wife left, then they all left.
Joaquim; A tall man left first for 15 minutes and they had to reheat his food. Then another man left for 30 minutes then they all left.
Ricardo; confirms the absence of a tall man for 15 minutes.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAPAS-EMPLOYEES.htm
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: slartibartfast on May 26, 2019, 11:59:44 AM
Wish I hadn't deleted my previous post now, cos you obviously think it is OK to guess.  Just as many on your side like to guess about Kate and Gerry

Now there is an ironic post.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 26, 2019, 12:10:06 PM
Don't you think the staff were aware the kids were being left alone in the rooms while the parents dined?

Why should they, unless specifically told? Why would they be even interested?

All they would observe was that children were not present at the Tapas
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: slartibartfast on May 26, 2019, 12:20:48 PM
Why should they, unless specifically told? Why would they be even interested?

All they would observe was that children were not present at the Tapas

They were just another bunch of holiday makers, as previous week, so subsequent week. You should never confuse professional bonhomie with interest.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 26, 2019, 01:05:15 PM
Why should they, unless specifically told? Why would they be even interested?

All they would observe was that children were not present at the Tapas
Kate wrote about the note at the booking office.  Can you recall that one. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: sadie on May 26, 2019, 01:15:02 PM
Now there is an ironic post.

Difference is that I have been to all the places and logically worked things out from checkable facts.  MTI just guesses, because of her dislike of the Mccanns; she just doesn't use logic.


And I always make it plain that it is a hypothesis; she claims her ideas/dreams as fact.  They are not.
But if that is what rocks your boat, so be it … but you shouldn't be a mod in that case imo
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 26, 2019, 02:04:02 PM
Kate wrote about the note at the booking office.  Can you recall that one.

What difference would that make to Tapas bar staff? Would they have seen it ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: John on May 26, 2019, 02:11:00 PM
Some posts have been unnecessarily aggressive and combative recently which is not conducive to constructive debate. By all means promote opinion and explore theories as long as such are based on facts and accepted understanding.

Finally, please keep posts amicable and informative at all times. TY.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Carana on May 27, 2019, 11:07:52 AM
I ask because according to the kitchen assistant "During the times meals are served, she works outside the restaurant for some of the time, near to the grill...She can also say that she has an idea of the group that dined at a table at the Tapas esplanade, of nine adults
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SVETLANA_VITORINO.htm

I can never work out whether that esplanade was inside or outside the restaurant.

Not clear, I agree. However, no one appears to have complained of barbecue fumes within the transparent "tent", so my assumption (right or wrong) is that the BBQ was somewhere outside the "tent", but close enough for the waiters to grab quickly.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Carana on May 27, 2019, 11:14:19 AM
What difference would that make to Tapas bar staff? Would they have seen it ?

No idea, Jassi.

If a block booking was unusual, someone who had seen it could have mentioned it to the waiting staff.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 27, 2019, 11:29:03 AM
No idea, Jassi.

If a block booking was unusual, someone who had seen it could have mentioned it to the waiting staff.

What? That the children were to be left alone each night?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 27, 2019, 11:35:56 AM
What? That the children were to be left alone each night?
I'd say so.   The staff seemed to know about the arrangement IMO.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 27, 2019, 12:14:04 PM
I'd say so.   The staff seemed to know about the arrangement IMO.

Which staff ?  You think it was on a daily bulletin for all to see? Were the McCanns that important?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 27, 2019, 12:21:30 PM
Which staff ?  You think it was on a daily bulletin for all to see? Were the McCanns that important?
If what the Tapas Group did was so reprehensible, evil and against all the norms of decent Portuguese society then there is a chance that it was discussed (gossiped about) by the Tapas staff including waiters is it not? 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 27, 2019, 12:42:04 PM
Which staff ?  You think it was on a daily bulletin for all to see? Were the McCanns that important?
9 adults- yes
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: slartibartfast on May 27, 2019, 02:53:51 PM
Difference is that I have been to all the places and logically worked things out from checkable facts.  MTI just guesses, because of her dislike of the Mccanns; she just doesn't use logic.


And I always make it plain that it is a hypothesis; she claims her ideas/dreams as fact.  They are not.
But if that is what rocks your boat, so be it … but you shouldn't be a mod in that case imo

Whether you have been there or not is immaterial, you theories are just guesses because you don’t have any proof that would take them further.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 27, 2019, 03:13:34 PM
Whether you have been there or not is immaterial, you theories are just guesses because you don’t have any proof that would take them further.

Quite. They may be possible, but there's nothing which makes them probable.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 27, 2019, 03:59:52 PM
Whether you have been there or not is immaterial, you theories are just guesses because you don’t have any proof that would take them further.

At the moment we cannot possibly know which if any of Sadie's theories might have been looked at, ruled out or even taken on board by Scotland Yard.

We do know that Amaral's theories slammed against the brick wall of proper reading of the FSS forensic report.

Theories are nothing more or less than a work in progress and should not be dismissed out of hand unless like Amaral's they have been totally discredited.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 27, 2019, 04:08:30 PM
Where they recovered the DNA sample that produced incomplete results behind the sofa will be important to the police.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 27, 2019, 04:09:53 PM
Where they recovered the DNA sample that produced incomplete results behind the sofa will be important to the police.

Which one was that in particular?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 27, 2019, 04:15:15 PM
Behind the sofa where Keela alerted to human blood.

"An incomplete DNA result was obtained from cellular material on the swab (286A/2007 CRL 3a). The swab contained very little information and showed low level indications of DNA from more than one person. However, all of the confirmed DNA components within this result match the corresponding components in the DNA profile of Madeline McCann."

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 27, 2019, 04:18:13 PM
Behind the sofa where Keela alerted to human blood.

"An incomplete DNA result was obtained from cellular material on the swab (286A/2007 CRL 3a). The swab contained very little information and showed low level indications of DNA from more than one person. However, all of the confirmed DNA components within this result match the corresponding components in the DNA profile of Madeline McCann."

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm

Wonder what Perlin could do with them if permitted.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: slartibartfast on May 27, 2019, 04:24:33 PM
At the moment we cannot possibly know which if any of Sadie's theories might have been looked at, ruled out or even taken on board by Scotland Yard.

We do know that Amaral's theories slammed against the brick wall of proper reading of the FSS forensic report.

Theories are nothing more or less than a work in progress and should not be dismissed out of hand unless like Amaral's they have been totally discredited.

I still haven’t seen this discrediting of GA’s theories.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 27, 2019, 04:31:26 PM
I still haven’t seen this discrediting of GA’s theories.

Oh ... you mean Kate and Gerry were charged and prosecuted  8(>(( how on earth did I manage to miss that ???
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 27, 2019, 05:10:39 PM
Whether their childcare arrangements were reprehensible and evil or not is beside the point. The relevant question IMO is, does the practice of similar childcare arrangements in the UK breach UK law? And do we have examples of prosecutions for similar parental behavior. The answer to that, is we do.
The wasn’t the question that was raised and to which I was replying.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 27, 2019, 05:13:59 PM
Amaral's theory states that no abductor will ever be charged and prosecuted. The part you seem to be missing IMO is, have they ever charged and prosecuted an abductor? At least, I don't think they have... but you may wish to correct me on that?

Not Relevant.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 27, 2019, 05:28:53 PM
Behind the sofa where Keela alerted to human blood.

"An incomplete DNA result was obtained from cellular material on the swab (286A/2007 CRL 3a). The swab contained very little information and showed low level indications of DNA from more than one person. However, all of the confirmed DNA components within this result match the corresponding components in the DNA profile of Madeline McCann."

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm

Madeleine would share her components with the public.

Come on if Madeleine had bled enough for her blood to be under a tile,  where was it in the grout?  and why just a tiny spot?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 27, 2019, 05:29:18 PM
No one mentioned reprehensible and evil behavior other than you, you weren't responding to that.
That was what was relevant to my response to you.
I think you missed my point.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 27, 2019, 05:30:55 PM
Amaral's theory states that no abductor will ever be charged and prosecuted. The part you seem to be missing IMO is, have they ever charged and prosecuted an abductor? At least, I don't think they have... but you may wish to correct me on that?
That’s not a theory, that’s a belief or wishful thinking if you prefer.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 27, 2019, 05:34:01 PM
Madeleine would share her components with the public.

Come on if Madeleine had bled enough for her blood to be under a tile,  where was it in the grout?  and why just a tiny spot?

 @)(++(* If Madeleine bled there then that suggests somebody cleaned up. They cannot clean under tiles and that's the point - where it was discovered could be important to the police. Time to think like one Lace  8(0(*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 27, 2019, 06:00:37 PM
If there was no abduction as per Amaral's theory, I think the prospects of a conviction of an abductor is wishful thinking on the part of the supporters. All theories make a series of predictions and Amaral's predictions about the no abductor is standing up to through examination by New Scotland Yard unless you have evidence you wish to share?
The only evidence I have which I have shared before is that the investigation is looking for a German paedo suspect. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 27, 2019, 06:18:19 PM
@)(++(* If Madeleine bled there then that suggests somebody cleaned up. They cannot clean under tiles and that's the point - where it was discovered could be important to the police. Time to think like one Lace  8(0(*

When did they have time to clean up?

You are missing the point if blood got through to the tile it must have gone through the grout yet they found nothing on the grout,  which tells me that blood was there before the tiles went down.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 27, 2019, 06:23:29 PM
Thanks for that evidence, I'll bear it in mind but the evidence of no charges or convictions of any nasty old abductor will do for me at the moment. Thanks all the same, it's appreciated.


It will have to do for you at the moment OG are still investigating.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 27, 2019, 06:26:34 PM
When did they have time to clean up?

You are missing the point if blood got through to the tile it must have gone through the grout yet they found nothing on the grout,  which tells me that blood was there before the tiles went down.
The grout between tiles will crack over time. Almost all tiles have voids under them due to the fixing method.
It is quite conceivable that blood (or another liquid) could seep through the cracks in to the void. The tiles would be easily cleaned, and the surface of the grout could be scrubbed to remove visible staining.
I'm not saying that's what happened, but the concept is plausible.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 27, 2019, 06:58:36 PM
The grout between tiles will crack over time. Almost all tiles have voids under them due to the fixing method.
It is quite conceivable that blood (or another liquid) could seep through the cracks in to the void. The tiles would be easily cleaned, and the surface of the grout could be scrubbed to remove visible staining.
I'm not saying that's what happened, but the concept is plausible.


Seep through the cracks without touching the grout?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 27, 2019, 07:04:38 PM
As far as I can remember, that spot of blood was attributed to one of the officers lifting the tiles.

Please don't ask for a cite.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 27, 2019, 07:46:30 PM
As far as I can remember, that spot of blood was attributed to one of the officers lifting the tiles.

Please don't ask for a cite.

So the blood dog alerted before any blood was there,is that what you are suggesting.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 27, 2019, 07:50:52 PM
So the blood dog alerted before any blood was there,is that what you are suggesting.

Darned clever, these dogs   8(>((
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 27, 2019, 07:59:07 PM
As far as I can remember, that spot of blood was attributed to one of the officers lifting the tiles.

Please don't ask for a cite.

I thought it was blood from someone who laid the tiles.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 27, 2019, 08:05:36 PM
So the blood dog alerted before any blood was there,is that what you are suggesting.

No. 

It is reasonable to assume, IMO, that both dogs alerted to traces of blood on or near the surface of the tile.

Then the officer to whom the blood underneath the tile was attributed cut himself in the process of removing the tile.

AFAIK, Eddie did not alert to fresh blood.  I don't know about Keela.  But it is immaterial.

If the blood came from one of the officers removing the tiles, it is not what Edie and Keela alerted to.  At a minimum, more blood is required.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 27, 2019, 09:06:49 PM

Seep through the cracks without touching the grout?
I think you're having a Steffi Graf kid.
Read it back.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 27, 2019, 09:13:08 PM
I thought it was blood from someone who laid the tiles.
That would be pretty impressive for a useless old sniffy sniffy mutt.
Please delete as per protocol.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: sadie on May 27, 2019, 10:25:51 PM
Whether you have been there or not is immaterial, you theories are just guesses because you don’t have any proof that would take them further.
They are NOT just guesses , they are based on irrefutable facts.  I have been there and checked them out.   I fully understand that the part about how Madeleine  got up to Porto in  the first place is logically worked out from facts but there are indications that my suspect likely took part and organised the transfer


I have presented a hypothesis to SY that is totally feasible … unless I have made a mistake anywhere.  Everyone makes mistakes and the likelihood is that I will have made an odd mistake in the complete theory, but a hell of a lot is right..   SY are aware of this being  an hypothesis /theory and that there could be an isolated mistake.
 but most will be spot on.

 It is a hypothesis and not proven.  If interested and the pointers are that they were, SY will have checked them out and with the important groups and individuals involved, and will be trying to find substantial proof.  You don't charge such people, untouchables, unless you have rock  solid proof and more.

Mega illegally gained money buys corruption and the Worlds finest Criminal Lawyers, including bent ones.   It also enables criminal acts against prosecution witnesses, shutting their mouths.


Slarti,
… you are barking up the wrong tree if you think that I would deliberately submit anything to SY that was false.   Thanks to my rigorous personal checking method, virtually everything will be spot on.  It is up to them to check and interpret. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 28, 2019, 03:34:04 AM
Yes, investigating an abduction according to the SY remit. An abduction that never took place according to Amaral's theory however. Things are ticking along just as predicted as far as the Catch That Abductor Competition is concerned from Amaral's point of view. The longer it goes on, the more realistic Amaral's prediction about there never being any abductor in the first place becomes.

SY haven't exactly come up with evidence to support their theory. No charges, no trial and no conviction after 7 years, that is my evidence. That'll do Amaral's theory no harm whatsoever I should imagine.

You really do make it up as you go along don't you.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 28, 2019, 07:16:20 AM
Yes, investigating an abduction according to the SY remit. An abduction that never took place according to Amaral's theory however. Things are ticking along just as predicted as far as the Catch That Abductor Competition is concerned from Amaral's point of view. The longer it goes on, the more realistic Amaral's prediction about there never being any abductor in the first place becomes.

SY haven't exactly come up with evidence to support their theory. No charges, no trial and no conviction after 7 years, that is my evidence. That'll do Amaral's theory no harm whatsoever I should imagine.
You do realise that the inability to catch an abductor does not mean that no abduction took place don’t you?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 28, 2019, 07:58:10 AM
They are NOT just guesses , they are based on irrefutable facts.  I have been there and checked them out.   I fully understand that the part about how Madeleine  got up to Porto in  the first place is logically worked out from facts but there are indications that my suspect likely took part and organised the transfer


I have presented a hypothesis to SY that is totally feasible … unless I have made a mistake anywhere.  Everyone makes mistakes and the likelihood is that I will have made an odd mistake in the complete theory, but a hell of a lot is right..   SY are aware of this being  an hypothesis /theory and that there could be an isolated mistake.
 but most will be spot on.

 It is a hypothesis and not proven.  If interested and the pointers are that they were, SY will have checked them out and with the important groups and individuals involved, and will be trying to find substantial proof.  You don't charge such people, untouchables, unless you have rock  solid proof and more.

Mega illegally gained money buys corruption and the Worlds finest Criminal Lawyers, including bent ones.   It also enables criminal acts against prosecution witnesses, shutting their mouths.


Slarti,
… you are barking up the wrong tree if you think that I would deliberately submit anything to SY that was false.   Thanks to my rigorous personal checking method, virtually everything will be spot on.  It is up to them to check and interpret.

Which 'facts' support the idea that there was a get away car? In my opinion there are none.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 28, 2019, 07:58:24 AM
Catch an abductor? After Ł11.6 million, proof that the only type of crime they were tasked to investigate ever took place would offer the taxpayer some small consolation.

I'm not too worried if they catch them or not at this stage. One step at a time.  8(0(*
You’re not worried if there is a predatory paedophile at large?  Why not?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 28, 2019, 08:08:37 AM
I'm commenting on the case of a missing child. Based on from what I've seen in the police files, a predatory paedophile is the last thing I need to worry about.

As for predatory paedophiles being on the loose in general all over the world, you better believe I worry. That's why me and my friends would never abandon our children for five nights in a row. And we definitely wouldn't leave any doors unlocked that would aid and abet these predatory paedophiles.
so you admit that abduction by a predatory paedophile from an unlocked apartment is a very real threat and possibility.  That’s progress.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 28, 2019, 08:49:58 AM
It's not the possibilities that I admit to in this case, it's the possibilities that the McCann's alleged childcare arrangements that have done so much damage to the missing child.

You admit it was a very real threat and they still left them in an allegedly unlocked apartment you say.

That's progress? But not for the child IMO.
I struggle to imagine anything that will help Madeleine in her current state.
Either she is dead or if she is alive, maybe living in a secluded environment.

Whatever happened on the night has very little bearing on what is happening to Madeleine now.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 28, 2019, 09:14:18 AM
It's not the possibilities that I admit to in this case, it's the possibilities that the McCann's alleged childcare arrangements that have done so much damage to the missing child.

You admit it was a very real threat and they still left them in an allegedly unlocked apartment you say.

That's progress? But not for the child IMO. 

 The McCann's and friends said it was a very quiet resort,   there was nothing to warn them about paedophiles being in the area,   why would a resort advertise that?  I wouldn't have left my children alone either,  it was a bad decision,  one the McCann's have to carry around for the rest of their lives. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 28, 2019, 09:31:45 AM
Are predatory pedophiles solely restricted to very noisy resorts? And do VERY RESPONSIBLE PARENTS need signs on the streets to warn them of the dangers of paedophiles?

And it was actually VS who discussed the very real threat of predatory paedophiles entering unlocked apartments, so perhaps your comment would be better aimed at her in this instance.

I'm not here to feel sorry for the McCanns, It's not just the McCanns that have had to live with their so called bad decisions for the last seven years, the taxpayer has been picking up the tab for that.


Many people make bad , unwise decisions which result in the taxpayer picking up the tab for those decisions.
It would certainly save money not to bother doing so!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 28, 2019, 09:32:02 AM
It's never struck me as being about helping the missing child in the first place. From day one, the McCann affair has always struck me as being entirely about helping her poor old mummy and daddy.

I mean, the fund for instance, that never helped Madeleine did it? But it did help her mummy and daddy, sure it did? With all sorts of things, but mainly legal expenditure.
It was you who said "But not for the child IMO"  Progress but not for the child IMO is how I read it.  How is anyone going to help the child?  I think the McCanns had the right idea - to keep her alive in the minds of the people.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 28, 2019, 09:36:00 AM
It was you who said "But not for the child IMO"  Progress but not for the child IMO is how I read it.  How is anyone going to help the child? I think the McCanns had the right idea - to keep her alive in the minds of the people.

How does that help her ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 28, 2019, 09:48:44 AM
The progress I was referring to was VS finally admitting that the conditions the children were allegedly left in, posed a 'very real threat'. There's no progress there for the child IMO. 
The McCanns had the right idea from their point of view OK. The parents set up a fund in their missing daughter's name that has only helped them to date.

Keep on hoping.  That's my advice.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: slartibartfast on May 28, 2019, 09:58:14 AM

...snip...

Slarti,
… you are barking up the wrong tree if you think that I would deliberately submit anything to SY that was false.   Thanks to my rigorous personal checking method, virtually everything will be spot on.  It is up to them to check and interpret.

I have not said you would submit anything you know is false. When a theory relies on elements that have no evidence to make it work, then it becomes a guess.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 28, 2019, 10:00:13 AM
Are predatory pedophiles solely restricted to very noisy resorts? And do VERY RESPONSIBLE PARENTS need signs on the streets to warn them of the dangers of paedophiles?

And it was actually VS who discussed the very real threat of predatory paedophiles entering unlocked apartments, so perhaps your comment would be better aimed at her in this instance.

I'm not here to feel sorry for the McCanns. It's not just the McCanns that have had to live with their so called bad decisions for the last seven years, the taxpayer has been picking up the tab for that.

The McCann's were unaware of the attacks on children.    It was a family friendly resort,  very quiet.   Some people whilst on holiday,   especially if they think the place is safe,  are more reckless about how they behave.  They were doing a Mark Warner checking system.   Unless someone had been watching them,  no one would know the children were alone.   

Are you begrudging Madeleine the money spent searching for her?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 28, 2019, 10:04:18 AM
The McCann's were unaware of the attacks on children.    It was a family friendly resort,  very quiet.   Some people whilst on holiday,   especially if they think the place is safe,  are more reckless about how they behave.  They were doing a Mark Warner checking system.   Unless someone had been watching them,  no one would know the children were alone.   

Are you begrudging Madeleine the money spent searching for her?

Not according to Robbi, who seemed to think, yesterday that it was common gossip among staff.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 28, 2019, 10:07:28 AM
The McCann's and friends said it was a very quiet resort,   there was nothing to warn them about paedophiles being in the area,   why would a resort advertise that?  I wouldn't have left my children alone either,  it was a bad decision,  one the McCann's have to carry around for the rest of their lives.

Wheres it been established any paedo was involved in what happened on the 3/05/2007,besides Rowley reckons if you cast the net wide enough you'll snare one come what may.


MR:The reality is in any urban area, you cast your net wide
and you find a whole range of offences and sex offenders who live nearby and those coincidences
need to be sifted out; what is a coincidence and what could be linked to the investigation we are
currently dealing with and just like we do in London we have been doing in Portugal so offences which
could be linked have to be looked at and either ruled in or ruled out and that’s the work we have been
doing.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 28, 2019, 10:08:18 AM
I begrudge no money being spent if it produces some productive results. So in that respect, I suppose I am.

OG haven't finished their investigation yet so we wouldn't be told of any results.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 28, 2019, 10:10:07 AM
Wheres it been established any paedo was involved in what happened on the 3/05/2007,besides Rowley reckons if you cast the net wide enough you'll snare one come what may.


MR:The reality is in any urban area, you cast your net wide
and you find a whole range of offences and sex offenders who live nearby and those coincidences
need to be sifted out; what is a coincidence and what could be linked to the investigation we are
currently dealing with and just like we do in London we have been doing in Portugal so offences which
could be linked have to be looked at and either ruled in or ruled out and that’s the work we have been
doing.


I haven't said a paedo was involved in taking Madeleine.  It's just one line of inquiry.   
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 28, 2019, 10:16:42 AM
After 7 years, we do have eyes, we can see the results to date. No sign of any abductor.

Well that's amazing,  do monkeys have super powers ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 28, 2019, 10:17:24 AM
I haven't said a paedo was involved in taking Madeleine.  It's just one line of inquiry.

Tis a strange one isn't it,Rowley and Grange are more than happy to not investigate the McCanns yet as one of their lines of inquiry's they investigate if any sex offender was involved with out any evidence of such.No evidence of McCann involvement, no evidence of sex offenders involvement but its looked at,go figure.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 28, 2019, 10:18:39 AM
Tis a strange one isn't it,Rowley and Grange are more than happy to not investigate the McCanns yet as one of their lines of inquiry's they investigate if any sex offender was involved with out any evidence of such.No evidence of McCann involvement, no evidence of sex offenders involvement but its looked at,go figure.

Sorry I don't follow you.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 28, 2019, 10:20:56 AM
Sorry I don't follow you.

No evidence of either,but Grange investigate one but not the other,what's there not to follow.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 28, 2019, 10:21:51 AM
OG haven't finished their investigation yet so we wouldn't be told of any results.

Sometimes I wonder if they ever will
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 28, 2019, 10:23:38 AM
I think you're having a Steffi Graf kid.
Read it back.

Blood would have had to drip through a very large crack in the tiles so as not to touch the grout.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 28, 2019, 10:25:37 AM
No evidence of either,but Grange investigate one but not the other,what's there not to follow.

I think I see what you are getting at,  it is obvious to me that there wasn't any evidence to follow up with one side.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 28, 2019, 10:26:06 AM
Sometimes I wonder if they ever will

Open ended cold file case.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 28, 2019, 10:29:52 AM
I think I see what you are getting at,  it is obvious to me that there wasn't any evidence to follow up with one side.

Strange don't you think after all this time not one of the investigations has even hinted how Madeleine left 5a,do they even know? Oh we know Rowley said how ever she left 5a she was abducted,what he never said was by a stranger,he never said the point of egress either.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 28, 2019, 10:48:55 AM
Strange don't you think after all this time not one of the investigations has even hinted how Madeleine left 5a,do they even know? Oh we know Rowley said how ever she left 5a she was abducted,what he never said was by a stranger,he never said the point of egress either.

The renit of Operation Grange was to investigate 'the abduction'. How could Rowley say anything else was possible in an interview therefore? Would he be allowed to suggest other possibilities?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 28, 2019, 10:54:34 AM
Rowley retired a few years ago. Has there been any official update on progress by a senior officer since then ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 28, 2019, 11:00:30 AM
Strange don't you think after all this time not one of the investigations has even hinted how Madeleine left 5a,do they even know? Oh we know Rowley said how ever she left 5a she was abducted,what he never said was by a stranger,he never said the point of egress either.

So you think they are investigating the McCann's ?    All these years and all the money?   Come off it that's ridiculous.

Andy Redwood said right at the beginning that Madeleine had been abducted by a stranger and the McCann's and their friends are not suspects.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 28, 2019, 11:05:36 AM
So you think they are investigating the McCann's ?    All these years and all the money?   Come off it that's ridiculous.

Andy Redwood said right at the beginning that Madeleine had been abducted by a stranger and the McCann's and their friends are not suspects.

If he really said that right at the beginning, then he was demonstrating a very closed mind.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 28, 2019, 11:08:30 AM
If he really said that right at the beginning, then he was demonstrating a very closed mind.


IMO OG did a review before opening the case,  they went through thousands of documents etc.   That was the conclusion they came to after looking at everything with 'new eyes'.   
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 28, 2019, 11:21:12 AM

IMO OG did a review before opening the case,  they went through thousands of documents etc.   That was the conclusion they came to after looking at everything with 'new eyes'.   

Had OG finished reviewing all the evidence when the remit was released? Had they finished reviewing all the evidence when Redwood started talikng? If not, how could they reach that conclusion?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 28, 2019, 11:29:38 AM
So you think they are investigating the McCann's ?    All these years and all the money?   Come off it that's ridiculous.

Andy Redwood said right at the beginning that Madeleine had been abducted by a stranger and the McCann's and their friends are not suspects.

I'm not sure they are investigating anyone,my point is how can they investigate anything if there is no evidence of such,Madeleine disappeared in as yet unexplained circumstances,although right from the off Grange decided it seems an abduction occurred,with out any investigation.So by that they have had to look at every scenario with which Madeleine could have been half inched out of 5a,even going so far as some landscaping,yet not one hint of how it was done,in all the stories over the years,strange innit.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 28, 2019, 11:34:33 AM
So everyone in the know concur that OG were concentrating their efforts on an abduction / abductor - Redwood, Rowley, Colin Sutton. After so many years 'investigating' and finding squat, wouldn't it be prudent to start looking at alternatives?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 28, 2019, 11:36:47 AM
So everyone in the know concur that OG were concentrating their efforts on an abduction / abductor - Redwood, Rowley, Colin Sutton. After so many years 'investigating' and finding squat, wouldn't it be prudent to start looking at alternatives?

Maybe funding would suddenly dry up if they suggested doing that  8(0(*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 28, 2019, 11:39:24 AM
I'm not sure they are investigating anyone,my point is how can they investigate anything if there is no evidence of such,Madeleine disappeared in as yet unexplained circumstances,although right from the off Grange decided it seems an abduction occurred,with out any investigation.So by that they have had to look at every scenario with which Madeleine could have been half inched out of 5a,even going so far as some landscaping,yet not one hint of how it was done,in all the stories over the years,strange innit.
What about the watcher skulking in the shadows of the adjacent apartment and the getaway driver?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 28, 2019, 11:42:09 AM
So everyone in the know concur that OG were concentrating their efforts on an abduction / abductor - Redwood, Rowley, Colin Sutton. After so many years 'investigating' and finding squat, wouldn't it be prudent to start looking at alternatives?

They had already looked at the alternatives.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 28, 2019, 11:43:45 AM
What about the watcher skulking in the shadows of the adjacent apartment and the getaway driver?

Would that be fag end lil.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 28, 2019, 11:44:49 AM
Would that be fag end lil.

Who is Fag End Lil?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 28, 2019, 11:44:58 AM
They had already looked at the alternatives.
That's my point. Why exclude any possibility if you're having no joy with your focus? 7 years later and you're making no headway - maybe you're looking at the wrong theory. Or do they just wind it up and say 'ah well, we couldn't find an abductor, or indeed any evidence of an abduction, so thanks everyone, good bye'?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 28, 2019, 11:46:48 AM
That's my point. Why exclude any possibility if you're having no joy with your focus? 7 years later and you're making no headway - maybe you're looking at the wrong theory. Or do they just wind it up and say 'ah well, we couldn't find an abductor, or indeed any evidence of an abduction, so thanks everyone, good bye'?

You don't know that they are making no headway.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 28, 2019, 11:47:19 AM
What about the watcher skulking in the shadows of the adjacent apartment and the getaway driver?

What about the bit in-between, how was she sequestrated out of 5a with out leaving a trace.magic carpet?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 28, 2019, 11:51:15 AM
You don't know that they are making no headway.
I'm not going down the 'sphincter says what' route that so many use on this forum, and ask you if you think they are making headway, but after burning 7 years and Ł12m I think I can safely say they're not exactly covering themselves in glory.
And I'm not surprised either, if you only follow one of the threads in your possession, and that thread turns out to be a dud, it sort of leaves you in investigative limbo.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 28, 2019, 11:51:46 AM
Who is Fag End Lil?

Aoife Smith, according to the media.

I think barrier was cracking a joke.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 28, 2019, 11:53:34 AM
What about the bit in-between, how was she sequestrated out of 5a with out leaving a trace.magic carpet?
Let's get it right, if you put the theories in order of likelihood, this one is at the bottom just before 'inter-dimensional transportation'.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 28, 2019, 11:57:14 AM
Would that be fag end lil.

Pity nobody bothered to bag them individually and send them off for forensic testing ... that might have given us confirmation about who was smoking there ... or I believe there is unidentified DNA from apartment 5, maybe even a match for that??
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 28, 2019, 12:00:35 PM
Pity nobody bothered to bag them individually and send them off for forensic testing ... that might have given us confirmation about who was smoking there ... or I believe there is unidentified DNA from apartment 5, maybe even a match for that??
'...yeh, they've come back from the lab. It turns out that they're cigarettes'.
Why not bag and tag every fag within a 2 block radius? Why not bag and tag all the Quaver's packets, used condoms and all the various items of flotsam and jetsam swirling around in the breeze?
You're quick to castigate the DNA found in 5a, just imagine how disparaging you would be about DNA found on an incidental object on the periphery.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 28, 2019, 12:01:50 PM
How does that help her ?
Potentially billions of people looking out for her day to day.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 28, 2019, 12:04:43 PM
Not according to Robbi, who seemed to think, yesterday that it was common gossip among staff.
Well who's side are you on?  Do you think the Tapas staff knew or not?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 28, 2019, 12:04:52 PM
Potentially billions of people looking out for her day to day.

Any evidence of that ?  What exactly would they be looking for after so many years?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 28, 2019, 12:05:55 PM
Potentially billions of people looking out for her day to day.
'Potentially billions'. I suppose that's technically correct. But the number of actual people who 1. know about it 2. have the means to hear about it 3. give a shit about it - is actually really small.
Nice sentiment though, 'billions' of eager pair of concerned eyes scouring their locale for the little missing girl.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 28, 2019, 12:06:39 PM
Well who's side are you on?  Do you think the Tapas staff knew or not?

I can see no reason why they should either know, or be in the least interested. Their responsibility was to serve food and drink
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 28, 2019, 12:10:27 PM
'Potentially billions'. I suppose that's technically correct. But the number of actual people who 1. know about it 2. have the means to hear about it 3. give a shit about it - is actually really small.
Nice sentiment though, 'billions' of eager pair of concerned eyes scouring their locale for the little missing girl.

She's no longer the little missing girl,her 16th has just passed,is she tall,medium height,small,long hair,short hair,blonde,dark,light skinned,suntanned,is she fat,thin,is she into punk,goth,what fashion,latest mobile texting away,its no wonder a age progression isn't produced,thats all assuming she's still alive.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 28, 2019, 12:20:23 PM
I can see no reason why they should either know, or be in the least interested. Their responsibility was to serve food and drink
So did they lie in their statements?  I seem to remember isolating comments  from their statements that indicated they were aware the Tapas 9 had left their kids in the apartments and were dining in nightly.
I can see the reason they were interested, as in some ways the staff had condoned what the Tapas 9 were doing.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 28, 2019, 12:21:43 PM
She's no longer the little missing girl,her 16th has just passed,is she tall,medium height,small,long hair,short hair,blonde,dark,light skinned,suntanned,is she fat,thin,is she into punk,goth,what fashion,latest mobile texting away,its no wonder a age progression isn't produced,thats all assuming she's still alive.
Its not so easy now as it was 7 years ago when she was 9.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 28, 2019, 12:28:22 PM
So did they lie in their statements? I seem to remember isolating comments  from their statements that indicated they were aware the Tapas 9 had left their kids in the apartments and were dining in nightly.
I can see the reason they were interested, as in some ways the staff had condoned what the Tapas 9 were doing.

Perhaps you can provide some cites for this.

Not that it really matters as none seem to be suspects in the alleged abduction
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 28, 2019, 12:32:34 PM
Perhaps you can provide some cites for this.

Not that it really matters as none seem to be suspects in the alleged abduction
Will one quote be enough?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: sadie on May 28, 2019, 12:35:04 PM
What about the bit in-between, how was she sequestrated out of 5a with out leaving a trace.magic carpet?

Two very obvious methods

1)  Drug/ tazer her

2)  Preferably using someone she knows, tell her that Mummy and Daddy want her to come and join them at a party at the swings or similar.  Ssssh, don't wake the twins.

Please don't ask me for a cite; I haven't a clue where I read about  someone who used to treat her at/near Baptistas, but I read it somewhere.  Anyone else remember seeing this?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 28, 2019, 12:39:21 PM
Will one quote be enough?

OK
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 28, 2019, 12:47:34 PM
OK
Hopefully in 24 hours.  Midnight here.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 28, 2019, 01:49:04 PM
Two very obvious methods

1)  Drug/ tazer her

2)  Preferably using someone she knows, tell her that Mummy and Daddy want her to come and join them at a party at the swings or similar.  Ssssh, don't wake the twins.

Please don't ask me for a cite; I haven't a clue where I read about  someone who used to treat her at/near Baptistas, but I read it somewhere.  Anyone else remember seeing this?

Ssssh don't wake the twins  @)(++(* Are you for real?  It's about time SY stopped playing games and started the real investigation.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 28, 2019, 01:58:10 PM
Ssssh don't wake the twins  @)(++(* Are you for real?  It's about time SY stopped playing games and started the real investigation.

Seems to me we are fantasy land, which is OK as long as its make believe in favour of there being an abductor.
Anything else and its whoosh
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 28, 2019, 02:02:28 PM
No. 

It is reasonable to assume, IMO, that both dogs alerted to traces of blood on or near the surface of the tile.

Then the officer to whom the blood underneath the tile was attributed cut himself in the process of removing the tile.

AFAIK, Eddie did not alert to fresh blood.  I don't know about Keela.  But it is immaterial.

If the blood came from one of the officers removing the tiles, it is not what Edie and Keela alerted to.  At a minimum, more blood is required.

Please provide a cite for the officer cutting himself removing a tile? As it was filmed I think you are mistaken.

"I bring to your attention in accordance with instructions received, that today, around 20h00, LPC Assistant Specialists Fernando Viegas and Lino Rodrigues, after seeing recorded images relating to the canine inspection conducted on 31 July 2007 in apartment 5A of the Ocean Club, duly explained in an official statement in the case file, they proceeded to collect [recover] the floor tiles where the dogs used in the activity indicated [alerted to] the possible existence of blood traces along with the position of a cadaver in that location.
Those tiles were lifted from the floor, in a way to preserve the possible traces intact for them to be subjected to examination by an authorised laboratory.
The activity was filmed in a way to illustrate the manner in which the uplifting was performed and the tools used, allowing that the experts would have a better understanding of all the circumstances inherent in the removal action. This resulted in the recordings of two video cassettes (Mini DV) which are attached.
The LPC officers are going to produce the official report.
That is all I have to advise.
Inspector, Joao Direito."

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BLOOD.htm
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 28, 2019, 02:34:45 PM
Aoife Smith, according to the media.

I think barrier was cracking a joke.

Thanks.

The Aoife Smith who was no where near 5a?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 28, 2019, 02:55:29 PM
Thanks.

The Aoife Smith who was no where near 5a?

Indeed.

Just a thought, where was a prime place to overlook the media scrum on 4 May?  That balcony is one of the choicest spots.  Observe the hullabaloo, whilst smoking, with perhaps the occasional coffee?

This is speculation.

Other than that position did indeed have a grand view for rubbernecking on 4 May.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 28, 2019, 03:22:39 PM
'...yeh, they've come back from the lab. It turns out that they're cigarettes'.
Why not bag and tag every fag within a 2 block radius? Why not bag and tag all the Quaver's packets, used condoms and all the various items of flotsam and jetsam swirling around in the breeze?
You're quick to castigate the DNA found in 5a, just imagine how disparaging you would be about DNA found on an incidental object on the periphery.
What is your objection to a recognised technique for evidence gathering ... particularly from a small balcony a member of the public worked out could have been used for the surveillance of a crime scene?
(http://images.slideplayer.com/26/8821746/slides/slide_10.jpg)
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 28, 2019, 03:30:45 PM
What is your objection to a recognised technique for evidence gathering ... particularly from a small balcony a member of the public worked out could have been used for the surveillance of a crime scene?
(http://images.slideplayer.com/26/8821746/slides/slide_10.jpg)

Body found in a suitcase?  Seriously?

Have you clocked yet that Portugal does not work to YOUR thinking about UK police techniques?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 28, 2019, 03:44:18 PM
Body found in a suitcase?  Seriously?

Have you clocked yet that Portugal does not work to YOUR thinking about UK police techniques?

I certainly have noted in both the Portuguese missing child cases I have some familiarity with that the investigation techniques were rather idiosyncratic ... I must admit I didn't think it was anything to be proud of ... rather the reverse.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 28, 2019, 04:21:07 PM
I certainly have noted in both the Portuguese missing child cases I have some familiarity with that the investigation techniques were rather idiosyncratic ... I must admit I didn't think it was anything to be proud of ... rather the reverse.

The question is unanswered.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 28, 2019, 04:42:44 PM
You admit there was a 'very real threat' and they still left them in an allegedly unlocked apartment.

That's progress? But not for the child IMO.
No I didn’t say that, you did.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 28, 2019, 05:25:58 PM
In both cases you appear to choose to completely ignore the inadequate childcare that allowed the children to go missing in the first place. And I've never known a single fingertip search to take place in Glasgow in a missing child case. It is a common occurrence in shootings and stabbings where I'm from in an effort to retrieve blood, shell casings and discarded weapons. Not fag ends. There was no fingertip search of the streets surrounding Margaret Fleming's residence in Largs for example. You got any Scottish examples where the police have employed a fingertip search of roads and streets in an effort to locate any missing person?

They're hardly likely to have to crawl along a street in their hands and knees looking for a missing child. The idea IMO is ridiculous. A fingertip search is usually triggered as the result of a known crime as far as I'm lead to believe. Someone going missing is NOT a crime.

No-one had to crawl on their hands and knees anywhere to pick up cigarette ends from a balcony overlooking a crime scene.
The balcony could have been used as an observation post ... there was limited access ... DNA would almost certainly have been present.
A British civilian could see the potential evidential value of the cigarette ends ... I'm sure sceptics can see it too.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on May 28, 2019, 06:16:14 PM
No-one had to crawl on their hands and knees anywhere to pick up cigarette ends from a balcony overlooking a crime scene.
The balcony could have been used as an observation post ... there was limited access ... DNA would almost certainly have been present.
A British civilian could see the potential evidential value of the cigarette ends ... I'm sure sceptics can see it too.
'A child is missing = fingertip search, 2 blocks by 2 blocks'
'.......what about sealing the ports, bridges, airports? Maybe search local area, houses, apartments......'
'DO IT GODDAMMITT! IN FULL HAZMAT! NOW!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 28, 2019, 06:39:19 PM
I'm not sure they are investigating anyone,my point is how can they investigate anything if there is no evidence of such,Madeleine disappeared in as yet unexplained circumstances,although right from the off Grange decided it seems an abduction occurred,with out any investigation.So by that they have had to look at every scenario with which Madeleine could have been half inched out of 5a,even going so far as some landscaping,yet not one hint of how it was done,in all the stories over the years,strange innit.

How it was done?   IMO someone got in and took Madeleine from her bed.   No one can say how they got in or out they can just speculate.   Amaral speculated too,  I would have liked to have seen Amaral's theory being put to the test. 

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 28, 2019, 06:40:53 PM
'A child is missing = fingertip search, 2 blocks by 2 blocks'
'.......what about sealing the ports, bridges, airports? Maybe search local area, houses, apartments......'
'DO IT GODDAMMITT! IN FULL HAZMAT! NOW!

I wish they had forensically taken samples from Madeleine's bed. 

They didn't even speak to the neighbours.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 28, 2019, 06:45:15 PM
How it was done?   Well that's obvious someone got in and took Madeleine from her bed.   No one can say how they got in or out they can just speculate.   Amaral speculated too,  I would have liked to have seen Amaral's theory being put to the test.

No its not obvious some one got in and took Madeleine, what is obvious there are opinions that some one did,world of difference and should be presented as such,imo of course.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 28, 2019, 06:46:47 PM

At least we seem to have got the In My Opinion sorted.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 28, 2019, 06:47:11 PM
What about the bit in-between, how was she sequestrated out of 5a with out leaving a trace.magic carpet?

How do you know the person didn't leave a trace?   Madeleine's bed wasn't tested for DNA, neither was the other bed.   As for fingerprints they were probably wiped off by other peoples fingerprints.  People laugh at the fact that the abductor could have taken his/her shoes off but I watched an American crime programme where a man thought he was clever taking off his shoes when he crept into an apartment,  but he trod on a leaflet on the floor and that is how they caught him,  instead of a handprint they had a footprint.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 28, 2019, 06:51:39 PM
How do you know the person didn't leave a trace?   Madeleine's bed wasn't tested for DNA, neither was the other bed.  As for fingerprints they were probably wiped off by other peoples fingerprints.  People laugh at the fact that the abductor could have taken his/her shoes off but I watched an American crime programme where a man thought he was clever taking off his shoes when he crept into an apartment,  but he trod on a leaflet on the floor and that is how they caught him,  instead of a handprint they had a footprint.


In your opinion, of course - no evidence, all supposition
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 28, 2019, 06:51:46 PM
At least we seem to have got the In My Opinion sorted.

Not consistent though is it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 28, 2019, 06:54:25 PM
Maddie could have been removed by some one who knew her. Someone she trusted...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 28, 2019, 07:29:26 PM

Maddie could have been removed by some one who knew her. Someone she trusted...

Or it could have been someone saying he/ she was taking her to see daddy.
The same tactic used when little Alesha McPhail was taken from her bed.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 28, 2019, 07:41:34 PM
Or it could have been someone saying he/ she was taking her to see daddy.
The same tactic used when little Alesha McPhail was taken from her bed.


Yes, I agree Erngath,  children are so easy to manipulate at that age  8(8-))
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 28, 2019, 07:45:11 PM
Or it could have been someone saying he/ she was taking her to see daddy.
The same tactic used when little Alesha McPhail was taken from her bed.

Absolutely!

but then that theory wouldn't tie in with JTs sighting of 'the abductor'  no shoes/slippers and  being carried in a strange way... If we believe JT did see an abductor.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 28, 2019, 07:45:33 PM

In your opinion, of course - no evidence, all supposition

I know there's no evidence,  no DNA was taken from the bed.   I don't know how Amaral can say that no one came in through the window because there was no finger prints or evidence on the bed.   If someone else had touched the window the abductor's fingerprints could have been wiped off and he/she could have taken his/her shoes off to enter through the window,  so there's no definite proof of what Amaral says.   IMO
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 28, 2019, 07:48:48 PM
Absolutely!

but then that theory wouldn't tie in with JTs sighting of 'the abductor'  no shoes/slippers and  being carried in a strange way... If we believe JT did see an abductor.

Did Alesha have her shoes/slippers on?   How the child was carried would make no difference to who the person was.   It was obvious someone not accustomed to carrying a child  IMO
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: sadie on May 28, 2019, 08:11:32 PM

Maddie could have been removed by some one who knew her. Someone she trusted...

Carolina Santos  - attempted abduction  a few miles away on Dec 25th 2004 (4 months before Madeleine went)

According to reports at the time a man walked up to her playing on the pavement.  Asked her if she would like to play with some children.  She went off with him, hand in hand, but fortunately Mum and Dad realised she had gone and ran out to see them walking off about 300 metres away and called her back.


Hand in hand!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 28, 2019, 09:22:56 PM
It's not only Amaral, professor David Barclay had this to say; "We must be very careful that we're not saying this is actually staging, but it is difficult to see how anybody could have interfered with those shutters from the outside without leaving some trace. In fact, having looked at them, I think it's almost impossible."
https://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id460.htm

Almost impossible, fancy that, ey.

Wasn't there also something about green algae ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 28, 2019, 09:50:33 PM

In your opinion, of course - no evidence, all supposition
"Probably" has a meaning, respect it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 28, 2019, 09:51:57 PM
Maddie could have been removed by some one who knew her. Someone she trusted...
That is just but one or two of many possibilities.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 28, 2019, 10:09:45 PM
Carolina Santos  - attempted abduction  a few miles away on Dec 25th 2004 (4 months before Madeleine went)

According to reports at the time a man walked up to her playing on the pavement.  Asked her if she would like to play with some children.  She went off with him, hand in hand, but fortunately Mum and Dad realised she had gone and ran out to see them walking off about 300 metres away and called her back.


Hand in hand!
Did you have the dates right.  Madeleine 3 May 2007  so Dec 25th 2004  becomes 3 years 4 months earlier.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 28, 2019, 10:50:51 PM
Tut, tut... let me refresh your recall.

Vertigo Swirl: "so you admit that abduction by a predatory paedophile from an unlocked apartment is 'a very real threat' and possibility.  That’s progress."

I don't say that anywhere, it's only you who does.  8(0(*
So when you wrote:
“As for predatory paedophiles being on the loose in general all over the world, you better believe I worry. That's why me and my friends would never abandon our children for five nights in a row. And we definitely wouldn't leave any doors unlocked that would aid and abet these predatory paedophiles”.

you are not admitting that abduction by a predatory paedophile from an unlocked apartment is a very real threat and possibility?   What then?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 28, 2019, 10:55:56 PM
Perhaps you can provide some cites for this.

Not that it really matters as none seem to be suspects in the alleged abduction
Jeronimo's statement
"He noticed, because it was obvious, that some of the members of the group would regularly leave the restaurant to do something, which he gradually came to realise was 'controlling' the children. Even so, he was always convinced that the children were in some place belonging to the Ocean Club, under the care of a Mark Warner company associated to the club."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JERONIMO-SALCEDAS.htm and http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/J-T-R-Salcedas.htm


Also the summary one "OFFICIAL INQUIRY FILES and DOCUMENTS
TAPAS BAR EMPLOYEES STATEMENTS"  http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAPAS-EMPLOYEES.htm

"--------- JOAQUIM JOSE MOREIRA BATISTA (residing at Rua Ilha Terceira, no. 15, Lagos, Telephone No 91 277 ####) - table employee [waiter].
- Of the group of 8/9 British citizens who dined at the restaurant last night, as usual, of which the parents of missing were part (he didn't know them) he noticed that two individuals left the table, of the male gender.
- The first to leave was about 40/45 years old (tall, skinny, white complexion, with large [a full head of] hair of color gray) and the period of his absence was about 15 minutes, being that they had to [re-]heat his food, which had cooled;
- The second to leave (about 40/45 years of age, having the physical characteristics of the first, but having less bulky hair) did so for about 30 minutes, and that shortly after he returned, all left the table, except for an elderly person, who told him that a child had disappeared, the daughter of a member of the group, due to which he thought that the second person to leave could have been the father of the child;
- Of the times in which this group had dined in that bar it is [was] often [for] someone from the group to go to check at the apartments the state of the children (their offspring) who were sleeping there.
- He did not see any person with blonde "rastas", while he was working (16h00 and 00.00). ----------
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: sadie on May 28, 2019, 11:10:45 PM
Did you have the dates right.  Madeleine 3 May 2007  so Dec 25th 2004  becomes 3 years 4 months earlier.

Thanks Rob.  It should have been 25th Dec 2006, which is 4 months before Madeleine went missing. 

So to make it plain
Carolina was attempted abducted  just over 4 months before Madeleine went missing and not so many miles away on the Algarve.  At the age of 3, she was playing alone on the pavement outside her families Bar/café.  A man came along and told her that he knew where some children were playing.  Would she like to go play with them?   She agreed and  went off hand in hand with him.

I think that if someone who Madeleine knew and liked came along with something she really fancied, she would probably go with him/her., especially if her mummy and daddy were mentioned as endorsing the offered thing.


However Janes little girl appeared to be asleep, so that scenario is unlikely unless she was tazered/drugged inside or immediately outside the flat.



Only my ruminations, but just could be.

 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 28, 2019, 11:14:29 PM
@ 6:25 he talks about green lichen on the window sills. It doesn't grow on the light weight aluminium shutter however that was covered in a fine coating of polyurethane paint. He's aware lichen will not grow on that surface and he concludes "it is difficult to see how anybody could have interfered with those shutters from the outside without leaving some trace. In fact, having looked at them, I think it's almost impossible."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxUdEnQ_r9M

Whatever way you look at things, Dave Barclay after examining the shutters concludes it would have been almost impossible to interfere with them without leaving a trace. He doesn't say that he reached his conclusion because of the lichen on the window sill. It was the shutter he was talking about.


Almost impossible, fancy that, ey.
Was that the demonstration using the electrically operated shutter ?  The one on Madeleine's window was manual.

And ... whoops ... there was no green lichen on the window ledge of Madeleine's room window ... as can be clearly seen from images taken shortly after her disappearance.

The fora myth of the time made reference to the impossibility that the window could not have been an entry point because of the presence of undisturbed green lichen.  Which was teamed up with the impossibility of raising the shutter from outside.

I wonder if Portuguese burglars et al were more familiar with forensic techniques than the police were and took obvious steps to avoid leaving traces behind ... I think wearing gloves would probably have been a consideration for them.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 12:01:39 AM
I'm acknowledging that you now admit that there was 'a very real threat' involved in leaving the children alone when you originally asked me if I was, "not worried if there is a predatory paedophile at large?" that's all. I hadn't given predatory paedophiles being at large in PDL a second thought until you asked. So no, I wasn't in the slightest bit worried about a predatory paedophile being at large. ? I see a very real threat in other avenues apart from predatory paedophiles. Baths, cookers, swimming pools, public thoroughfares where traffic flowed. Beastie boys abducting my child would be the least of those possibilities for me to worry about.

If the McCanns weren't interested in the very real threat you admit they left their three babies in, I don't know why you expect anyone else to be interested. It's refreshing to see you admit they left the children exposed to a very real threat. Those very real threats exposed a lot of possibilities, but it was only you who chose to focus on the most unlikely one given the facts IMO. 

As far as I'm concerned, if a predatory paedophile abducts my child, I don't tell the police two completely different versions of the last time I seen them alive and then refuse to cooperate with the very people tasked to find her.

I worry about my own children, not the McCanns.
Your post made it clear that you would not leave your kids alone in an unlocked apartment because of the risk posed by predatory paedophiles and no amount of waffle alters that fact.  Odd though isn’t it that you believe leaving children in an unlocked apartment exposes them to the risk of abduction by paedos and at the same time you seem to think the idea that Madeleine was abducted by a paedo to be ridiculously unlikely. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 07:47:46 AM
I don't care what you think. Especially when you miss out the critical points of what I have said.

Perhaps you think you'd tell the old bill two completely different version of the last time you seen your child alive if she was abducted by a predatory paedophile and then refuse to cooperate with the very same people tasked to find her. Those parts aren't a lot of waffle, those parts are established facts.
LOL.  This is what we in the forum business call deflection. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: kizzy on May 29, 2019, 08:05:44 AM
LOL.  This is what we in the forum business call deflection.

How do you work that out then - think your post is the deflection VS.

Out of curiosity, what forum business are you in - didn't know it was classed as a business.

But obviously, it is for you - think others class it as a way of putting their opinion across.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 08:34:41 AM
How do you work that out then - think your post is the deflection VS.

Out of curiosity, what forum business are you in - didn't know it was classed as a business.

But obviously, it is for you - think others class it as a way of putting their opinion across.
Kizzy, you need to have followed the excahnge between me and the Monkey to understand.  And - please lighten up.  “Forum business” was a slightly ironic turn of phrase. I didn’t actually mean that the forum is a business.  I can’t believe I’m actually having to answer this silly question.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 29, 2019, 08:48:26 AM
It's not only Amaral, professor David Barclay had this to say; "We must be very careful that we're not saying this is actually staging, but it is difficult to see how anybody could have interfered with those shutters from the outside without leaving some trace. In fact, having looked at them, I think it's almost impossible."
https://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id460.htm

Almost impossible, fancy that, ey.

He said that after Gerry had opened the shutters from the outside,   so it seems that Gerry managed it without leaving a trace.

Notice he says ALMOST impossible,  fancy that, ey.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 29, 2019, 09:48:15 AM
How can it be deflection in the forum business if I'm including the parts of my post you deliberately missed out in reply to your, "you seem to think the idea that Madeleine was abducted by a paedo to be ridiculously unlikely."

Damn right I do for the reasons you consider deflection.! That's the truth, not deflection.

You may think your child would stand a better chance of being recovered if you gave police two completely different versions of the last time you seen your child alive, and then completely refuse to cooperate honestly with the people tasked to find her. I find that idea ridiculously unlikely but that's exactly what Mr and Mrs McCann chose to do.

One thing we can prove, it didn't help get their child back.

And you've also now finally admitted that the conditions the McCanns left their babies in posed a "very real threat" to their safety. That's progress IMO.

It didn't stop them doing it though, did it?

If The McCanns had known there was a paedophile running around I am certain sure they would not have left their children.
And don't tell me that The PJ didn't know because I simply do not believe it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 29, 2019, 09:49:15 AM
Do you have a cite for an independent witness for that?

Gerry says a lot of things that can't possibly be true.

In Your Opinion.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 29, 2019, 09:51:48 AM
How it was done?   IMO someone got in and took Madeleine from her bed.   No one can say how they got in or out they can just speculate.   Amaral speculated too,  I would have liked to have seen Amaral's theory being put to the test.

I find that very farfetched and totally lacking in any substance. IMO any attempt by a total stranger to remove Maddie from her bedroom would have been chaotic.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: carlymichelle on May 29, 2019, 09:53:56 AM
I find that very farfetched and totally lacking in any substance. IMO any attempt by a total stranger to remove Maddie from her bedroom would have been chaotic.


a nearly  4 year old would have  screamed the place down
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 29, 2019, 09:57:23 AM

a nearly  4 year old would have  screamed the place down

Little Alesha McPhail didn't!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 29, 2019, 10:00:33 AM
I find that very farfetched and totally lacking in any substance. IMO any attempt by a total stranger to remove Maddie from her bedroom would have been chaotic.


Well you are welcome to your opinion.    Other children have been abducted from their bed and one from a bath that I remember,   these are true crimes not farfetched at all
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 29, 2019, 10:01:38 AM
Gerry did know around 11 o'clock on May 3 though, didn't he? No one has said that they told him which indicates he must have known when he left the children all alone allegedly tucked up in bed.

Thoughtful of him, eh.

How did he know at eleven o'clock?

Not asking for a cite but how do you know he knew?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 29, 2019, 10:01:51 AM

a nearly  4 year old would have  screamed the place down

Maybe not if she woke very sleepy and someone told her her mummy had sent them to fetch her.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 29, 2019, 10:02:13 AM

Well you are welcome to your opinion.    Other children have been abducted from their bed and one from a bath that I remember,   these are true crimes not farfetched at all

Indeed!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 29, 2019, 10:03:23 AM
Do you have a cite for an independent witness for that?

Gerry says a lot of things that can't possibly be true.

Did Peter Mac leave a trace when he showed they could be opened,    or the Police?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 29, 2019, 10:09:34 AM

Well you are welcome to your opinion.    Other children have been abducted from their bed and one from a bath that I remember,   these are true crimes not farfetched at all

As support for my opinion I draw attention to the fact that Maddie was a light sleeper and had been awake on previous nights even crying for her daddy.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 29, 2019, 10:13:12 AM
Gerry did know around 11 o'clock on May 3 though, didn't he? No one has said that they told him which indicates he must have known when he left the children all alone allegedly tucked up in bed.

Thoughtful of him, eh.

I truly believe that the group considered the Ocean Garden blocks safe and so were prepared to risk it with a few ad hoc checks thrown in.  I must say though, that leaving three children asleep in an unsecured ground floor apartment alongside a public road and car park wasn't a very sensible thing to do.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 29, 2019, 10:13:20 AM
Graham MacKenzie: "I looked to see who I now know to be Gerry McCann stood above me on the balcony/patio about 3 metres away speaking on a mobile phone. I cannot recall his exact words but I got the impression that he was speaking to perhaps a family member or someone he was very close to due to the nature of his conversation.

He said something along the lines of there being Paedophile gangs in Portugal and that they had abducted Madeleine.

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GRAHAM-MCKENZIE.htm

It didn't stop him from alleging he left the children all alone in an unlocked apartment, did it?

He said something along the lines..............
I cannot recall his exact words..........
I got the impression........
Above me on a balcony........
3 metres away on a mobile........

And this is your proof that Gerry knew there was a paedophile in the vicinity of Luz?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 10:13:54 AM
How can it be deflection in the forum business if I'm including the parts of my post you deliberately missed out in reply to your, "you seem to think the idea that Madeleine was abducted by a paedo to be ridiculously unlikely."

Damn right I do for the reasons you consider deflection.! That's the truth, not deflection.

You may think your child would stand a better chance of being recovered if you gave police two completely different versions of the last time you seen your child alive, and then completely refuse to cooperate honestly with the people tasked to find her. I find that idea ridiculously unlikely but that's exactly what Mr and Mrs McCann chose to do.

One thing we can prove, it didn't help get their child back.

And you've also now finally admitted that the conditions the McCanns left their babies in posed a "very real threat" to their safety. That's progress IMO.

It didn't stop them doing it though, did it?
There is absolutely no correlation between what you perceive to be the different accounts given by David Payne and the possibility of a child being abducted from an unlocked apartment.  You have stated that leaving kids in an unlocked apartment puts them in real danger of being abducted by a paedo.  Whatever a family friend said after the event does not change the risk that you yourself admit exists.  Therefore there is a total disconnect between what you perceive to be the very real possibility of abduction by a paedo and your attitude to the theory that Madeleine was abducted which you seem to rule out completely, simply because of David Payne's statement.  That is utterly illogical IMO. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 10:15:05 AM

a nearly  4 year old would have  screamed the place down
Cite.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 10:16:31 AM
I find that very farfetched and totally lacking in any substance. IMO any attempt by a total stranger to remove Maddie from her bedroom would have been chaotic.
Please explain why.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 10:18:02 AM
Graham MacKenzie: "I looked to see who I now know to be Gerry McCann stood above me on the balcony/patio about 3 metres away speaking on a mobile phone. I cannot recall his exact words but I got the impression that he was speaking to perhaps a family member or someone he was very close to due to the nature of his conversation.

He said something along the lines of there being Paedophile gangs in Portugal and that they had abducted Madeleine.

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GRAHAM-MCKENZIE.htm

It didn't stop him from alleging he left the children all alone in an unlocked apartment, did it?
Hearsay.  Did he say they HAD abducted Madeleine or something along the lines of?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 10:19:37 AM
As support for my opinion I draw attention to the fact that Maddie was a light sleeper and had been awake on previous nights even crying for her daddy.
The child in the bath who was abducted was presumably not even asleep when she was taken.  Was that far-fetched and chaotic?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 29, 2019, 10:20:51 AM
Cite.

It's known as stranger anxiety.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 10:21:35 AM
It's known as stranger anxiety.
What is?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 29, 2019, 10:23:10 AM
The child in the bath who was abducted was presumably not even asleep when she was taken.  Was that far-fetched and chaotic?

We are discussing Maddie and her character which IMO was not conducive to stranger abduction.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 10:23:59 AM
I'm not talking about David Payne's two completely different accounts of the last time he seen the child alive to you, I'm talking about the missing child's father's two completely different accounts.

Deflection in the forum business? Get with it. It's the missing child's father I'm talking about, not David Payne.

Lee Rainbow “The family is a lead that should be followed. The contradictions in Gerald McCann’s statements might lead us to suspect a homicide.”
What are those two completely different accounts, pray tell?  My point still stands whoever's story you believe has contradictions within it.  The risk of a child being abducted from an unlocked apartment by a paedophile is not altered by what a person says before or after the event.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 29, 2019, 10:24:19 AM
What is?

Screaming at strangers.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 10:24:34 AM
We are discussing Maddie and her character which IMO was not conducive to stranger abduction.
Of course, I was forgetting how well you knew Madeleine and her character.  LOL. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 10:25:13 AM
Screaming at strangers.
Is this a typical characteristic of the child you seem to know so well, screaming at strangers?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 10:25:44 AM
It's not hearsay to say that Graham Mackenzie told police that he was shocked to hear Gerry McCann say something along the lines of "there being Paedophile gangs in Portugal and that they had abducted Madeleine."

That's what his statement says, that's not hearsay.
What he said is hearsay.  End of. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: carlymichelle on May 29, 2019, 10:26:30 AM
Screaming at strangers.



the problem  with  some is they  think of  maddies  reaction  to a possible  abductor in a  adult point of  view    young  children    are oftern  scared of  strangers  and    a  child would be terrified of a  stranger  late at night in the  dark
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 29, 2019, 10:29:15 AM


the problem  with  some is they  think of  maddies  reaction  to a possible  abductor in a  adult point of  view    young  children    are oftern  scared of  strangers  and    a  child would be terrified of a  stranger  late at night in the  dark

If only that were true.
Sadly it is not IMO.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 29, 2019, 10:31:25 AM
No it's not, it's a fact. Would you like the cites?

Yes, Please.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 29, 2019, 10:32:36 AM
Gerry did know around 11 o'clock on May 3 though, didn't he? No one has said that they told him which indicates he must have known when he left the children all alone allegedly tucked up in bed.

Thoughtful of him, eh.

Mere speculation.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 29, 2019, 10:42:44 AM
It's known as stranger anxiety.


Children have to be taught to be anxious/wary/ suspicious about strangers approaching them.
Hence the lessons in school about stranger danger.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 29, 2019, 10:44:49 AM
That's what his statement says, that's not hearsay. End of.

Just because you say "end of" does not prove it is not hearsay!
Did you respond to my post about the vagueness of this witness statement?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 29, 2019, 10:45:26 AM
Hearsay.  Did he say they HAD abducted Madeleine or something along the lines of?

Well yes.
From Graham McKenzie statement...

"He (GM) said something along the lines of there being Paedophile gangs in Portugal and that they had abducted Madeleine. I was so shocked by this, having originally thought that she had just wandered off."

So not hearsay as Graham McKenzie had direct knowledge of what G McCann said.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 10:47:40 AM
That's what his statement says, that's not hearsay. End of.
His statement is hearsay.  Do you understand what hearsay means?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 10:50:06 AM
Hearsay: the report of another person's words by a witness, which is usually disallowed as evidence in a court of law.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 29, 2019, 10:50:18 AM
I find that very farfetched and totally lacking in any substance. IMO any attempt by a total stranger to remove Maddie from her bedroom would have been chaotic.

The murder of six year old Alesha MacPhail on the Island of Bute refutes many of the suppositions made about Madeleine's disappearance.
Alesha was lifted from her bed and carried to her death by a stranger while her family slept. 
No-one saw anything. 
No-one heard anything. 
There was no forensic evidence that a stranger had been in the house but for the fact that Alesha had gone.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 29, 2019, 10:50:47 AM
His statement is hearsay.  Do you understand what hearsay means?

You obviously don't.  8)-)))

Had a third party told G McKenzie what G McCann had said then that would have been hearsay. As it was however, G McKenzie reported in his statement what he actually heard and witnessed. That is NOT hearsay.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 10:52:34 AM
You obviously don't.  8)-)))
Tell me what you think hearsay means then, then explain why it doesn't mean this dictionary definition, which I have just quoted:
Hearsay: the report of another person's words by a witness, which is usually disallowed as evidence in a court of law.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 29, 2019, 10:53:00 AM
His statement is hearsay.  Do you understand what hearsay means?

So are all Kate McCann's reports in her book of what her husband told her, including her report that he asked to see the PJ's evidence and was refused. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 10:56:35 AM
So are all Kate McCann's reports in her book of what her husband told her, including her report that he asked to see the PJ's evidence and was refused.
Yes that is correct, well done. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 29, 2019, 11:02:42 AM
Tell me what you think hearsay means then, then explain why it doesn't mean this dictionary definition, which I have just quoted:
Hearsay: the report of another person's words by a witness, which is usually disallowed as evidence in a court of law.

My understanding of hearsay is that reporting first hand an actual conversation in which one participated is not hearsay. He said, she said, however, is hearsay.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 11:04:45 AM
Reporting an actual conversation in which one participated is not hearsay. He said, she said, however, is.
How can you report an actual conversation without using he said, she said out of interest? 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 11:06:57 AM
My understanding of hearsay is that reporting first hand an actual conversation in which one participated is not hearsay. He said, she said, however, is.

Firstly MacKenzie wasn't reporting an actual conversation in which he participated and second by your very own definition saying "he said" is hearsay. 



"He (GM) said something along the lines of there being Paedophile gangs in Portugal and that they had abducted Madeleine. I was so shocked by this, having originally thought that she had just wandered off.

So next time you attempt to mock me for not understanding what hearsay is, it might be an idea to understand what it is yourself.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 29, 2019, 11:08:02 AM
So are all Kate McCann's reports in her book of what her husband told her, including her report that he asked to see the PJ's evidence and was refused.
Amaral's convenient and anonymous witnesses  *%87
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 29, 2019, 11:11:30 AM
I think some posters are confusing Hearsay with Hearsay Evidence.

Hearsay is defined as Information that was heard by one person about another that cannot be adequately substantiated.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 11:20:22 AM
I think some posters are confusing Hearsay with Hearsay Evidence.

Hearsay is defined as Information that was heard by one person about another that cannot be adequately substantiated.
So now tell me why Graham Mackenzie's statement is not hearsay?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 11:22:31 AM
You're deluded IMO if you think your in a court of law on here. This is the court of public opinion where Graham Mackenzie's witness statement is admissible.

Court of law?  Keep your wig on your honour.  @)(++(*
Don't be silly.  I was pointing out that his statement is hearsay, which it is, both in the court of public opinion and in a court of law.  If you can't see the difference between his statement and an interview with Gerry that evening in which he states "Madeleine was abducted by a paedophile gang" then there's nothing more I can do to help you comprehend. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 29, 2019, 11:27:13 AM
Alesha's dad and his partner were stoned out of their minds, the dad being a cannabis dealer.

Does any of that apply to Madeleine's circumstance?

The circumstances leading to Alesha's abduction and murder exactly mirror the circumstances of Madeleine's disappearance except for the fact Alesha's family were present and Madeleine's disappearance was discovered much earlier than Alesha's.

A stranger entered the house.

He lifted Alesha from her bed while her family slept.

There was no forced or jemmied entry.

There was no forensic evidence of his presence.

There were no witnesses.

Every one of the foregoing applies to Madeleine's case but for her parents' being appx 35 seconds distance having a meal.

Without CCTV footage of the perpetrator coming and going and given his youth ... I suspect that the police might have had a more difficult task than they did in respect of first considering him a suspect.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 29, 2019, 11:28:09 AM
So now tell me why Graham Mackenzie's statement is not hearsay?

It is not hearsay because it was first hand.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 29, 2019, 11:30:31 AM
Couldn't you explain why you think Graham Mackenzie who went out his way to try to help the missing child, unlike her mother would make anything he said in his statement up and be confused about why he was shocked at what he had heard Gerry say?

He cannot quote exactly what was said.
Therein lies the problem.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 11:31:11 AM
It is not hearsay because it was first hand.
Where is the head banging a wall emoticon?  What Gerry was reported to have said was not first hand.  FGS.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 11:32:30 AM
Couldn't you explain why you think Graham Mackenzie who went out his way to try to help the missing child, unlike her mother would make anything he said in his statement up and be confused about why he was shocked at what he had heard Gerry say?
Sure, but first could you please cite where I said Graham Mackenzie made up his statement, ta muchly.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 29, 2019, 11:33:00 AM
So do you think Graham Mackenzie was making it all up and his shock at what he heard Gerry say was all a figment of his imagination?
I don't think you are quite grasping what defines 'hearsay'.
He overheard a one sided phone conversation ... his report of what he thought he heard ... by definition is hearsay.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 29, 2019, 11:35:22 AM
The circumstances leading to Alesha's abduction and murder exactly mirror the circumstances of Madeleine's disappearance except for the fact Alesha's family were present and Madeleine's disappearance was discovered much earlier than Alesha's.

A stranger entered the house.

He lifted Alesha from her bed while her family slept.

There was no forced or jemmied entry.

There was no forensic evidence of his presence.

There were no witnesses.

Every one of the foregoing applies to Madeleine's case but for her parents' being appx 35 seconds distance having a meal.

Without CCTV footage of the perpetrator coming and going and given his youth ... I suspect that the police might have had a more difficult task than they did in respect of first considering him a suspect.

They do not exactly mirror Madeleine's disappearance,its not been established what happened yet.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 11:37:32 AM
I don't think you are quite grasping what defines 'hearsay'.
He overheard a one sided phone conversation ... his report of what he thought he heard ... by definition is hearsay.
Thank God, I was beginning to doubt myself there for a moment.  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 29, 2019, 11:39:39 AM
Where is the head banging a wall emoticon?  What Gerry was reported to have said was not first hand.  FGS.

Actually, it was.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 11:40:43 AM
Actually, it was.
Oh God, don't you start.   *%87
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 29, 2019, 11:41:59 AM
I don't think you are quite grasping what defines 'hearsay'.
He overheard a one sided phone conversation ... his report of what he thought he heard ... by definition is hearsay.

Nope.  He heard what he heard.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 29, 2019, 11:44:23 AM
Actually, it was.

I don't believe it was.
Only the person he was speaking to would be able to give a first hand account of the conversation because only that person was privy to ALL the conversation.
Not just one side of a conversation overheard on a mobile phone on a balcony above him.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 29, 2019, 11:45:30 AM
Nope.  He heard what he heard.

Did he hear what the other person on the.phone was saying?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 11:45:47 AM
Nope.  He heard what he heard.
What did he hear exactly?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 29, 2019, 11:46:19 AM
Oh God, don't you start.   *%87

As he did not report that person C had said this, but reported it it it first person, it's not hearsay.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 29, 2019, 11:49:10 AM
I don't believe it was.
Only the person he was speaking to would be able to give a first hand account of the conversation because only that person was privy to ALL the conversation.
Not just one side of a conversation overheard on a mobile phone on a balcony above him.

A one sided convo is not hearsay.  It's simply a one sided convo.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 11:49:35 AM
As he did not report that person C had said this, but reported it it it first person, it's not hearsay.
So if what he reported is a first person account of what Gerry said, how would you describe Gerry's account of what he actually said?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 29, 2019, 11:51:47 AM
They do not exactly mirror Madeleine's disappearance,its not been established what happened yet.

The facts relating to Alesha's abduction mirror exactly Madeleine's disappearance.  Which one do you disagree with?

There were no witnesses  ... I'll give you that one.  Although mibbes aye, mibbes naw ... a CCTV image of Alesha being carried V Jane Tanner's eye witness account?

No forced entry ✔
No forensic evidence of an intruder ✔
Two children missing from their beds ✔
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 29, 2019, 11:56:23 AM
You're learning I see.

Madeleine's disappearance has a much more factual tone to it.

A stranger was convicted of having entered the house
A stranger was convicted of lifting a child from her bed
There was DNA linking the murderer with the murdered child
There was CCTV footage of the murderer coming and going at the time

There is nothing that really exactly mirrors Madeleine's disappearance other than in your imagination.

You have to imagine a stranger entered the apartment.
You have to imagine a stranger lifted a child from her bed.
You have to imagine there was translation errors in the Gerry's two completely different accounts of the last time he seen his missing child alive.


It's not against the law to have a vivid imagination, good for those who do.  ^*&&

There is absolutely nothing imaginary about Alesha's abduction and murder.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 29, 2019, 11:56:47 AM
What did he hear exactly?

Presumably what he gave in his statement.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 29, 2019, 11:57:51 AM
Presumably what he gave in his statement.

Presumably, eh?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 11:59:37 AM
Presumably what he gave in his statement.
It wasn't very precise was it?  Give me your definition of hearsay please.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 29, 2019, 12:00:22 PM
So if what he reported is a first person account of what Gerry said, how would you describe Gerry's account of what he actually said?

Kindly provide Gerry's account.  Then I will give you my evaluation.

 &^^&*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 12:02:02 PM
Kindly provide Gerry's account.  Then I will give you my evaluation.

 &^^&*
WE can't because there is only hearsay evidence to go on, isn't there...?  8(>((
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 29, 2019, 12:03:19 PM
A one sided convo is not hearsay.  It's simply a one sided convo.

But the "overhearer" has no idea of what is being said by the person whom they cannot hear.
So it  is not a true account of a conversation.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 29, 2019, 12:04:41 PM
Dearie dearie me. I don't think you grasp what Graham Mackenzie claims he heard Gerry say. Or rather I do think you grasp it and you're doing the same old try to discredit the witness routine. It doesn't matter who it is, any witness who states things the supporters don't like the hear and it's the old discredit the witness routine.

What can you envisage Gerry could have been talking about that would have lead Graham Mackenzie to believe that Gerry was telling the other person that he knew there were paedophile gangs operating in Portugal? 7

Give us a chance to grasp your answer to that please?

What did the other person on the phone say to Gerry?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 29, 2019, 12:05:32 PM
But the "overhearer" has no idea of what is being said by the person whom they cannot hear.
So iti s not a true account of a conversation.

That's right, its an account of what Gerry said. No attempt was made to ad lib the rest of the conversation.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 29, 2019, 12:06:08 PM
No it's not, it's a fact. Would you like the cites?
Yes we would.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 29, 2019, 12:06:44 PM
Where is the head banging a wall emoticon?  What Gerry was reported to have said was not first hand.  FGS.

Gerry's comments were given first hand to McKenzie and he reported them just as any other witness would report an event. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 29, 2019, 12:07:18 PM
Dearie dearie me. I don't think you grasp what Graham Mackenzie claims he heard Gerry say. Or rather I do think you grasp it and you're doing the same old try to discredit the witness routine. It doesn't matter who it is, any witness who states things the supporters don't like the hear and it's the old discredit the witness routine.

What can you envisage Gerry could have been talking about that would have lead Graham Mackenzie to believe that Gerry was telling the other person that he knew there were paedophile gangs operating in Portugal? 7

Give us a chance to grasp your answer to that please?

What Graham Mackenzie reported was hearsay ... plain and simple ... and as per definition.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 29, 2019, 12:07:21 PM
That's right, its an account of what Gerry said. No attempt was made to ad lib the rest of the conversation.

So the other person on the phone could have mentioned a concern about paedophiles before Gerry responded?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 29, 2019, 12:09:06 PM
What Graham Mackenzie reported was hearsay ... plain and simple ... and as per definition.

It is plain and simple.
End of.lol
Drizzly here!
Perfect weather for hunting slugs and snails!
Out to do so.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 29, 2019, 12:09:33 PM
I don't believe it was.
Only the person he was speaking to would be able to give a first hand account of the conversation because only that person was privy to ALL the conversation.
Not just one side of a conversation overheard on a mobile phone on a balcony above him.

Quite a few people reported what the McCanns told them on 3/4th May. Their accounts have been rejected by those who support the McCanns, however.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 12:10:10 PM
The imagination is all on your part. There is nothing about that abduction and murder that exactly mirrors Madeleine McCanns disappearance at the moment.

You have to imagine it does, and you do it very well IMO.
You are in deep denial IMO.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 12:11:36 PM
Gerry's comments were given first hand to McKenzie and he reported them just as any other witness would report an event.
No Gerry didn't give him anything.  Mackenzie eavesdropped and reported what he thought he heard.  He heard what the other bloke said and reported it - there's a clue there. Hear and say.  geddit? 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 29, 2019, 12:13:58 PM
Feel free to change your signature line to whatever you like, do you really think that is going to bother me in the slightest?   Now, tell me if me example is first hand or hearsay.  I bet you won't.

It's first hand.

It is what Mr McKenzie said he heard and saw.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 29, 2019, 12:16:00 PM
So the other person on the phone could have mentioned a concern about paedophiles before Gerry responded?

Now you are suggesting something that you don't know to be so.
What is reported is what Gerry said over the phone, nothing more.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 29, 2019, 12:19:54 PM
WE can't because there is only hearsay evidence to go on, isn't there...?  8(>((

Mr McKenzie's statement is first hand.

I note you have completely ducked giving 'Gerry's account', which you asked me to explain.

Par for the course.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 12:20:13 PM
It's first hand.

It is what Mr McKenzie said he heard and saw.
Heard and saw someone else said.  Hear.  Say.  What does "hearsay" mean, then?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 29, 2019, 12:21:50 PM
Now you are suggesting something that you don't know to be so.
What is reported is what Gerry said over the phone, nothing more.

I know it was a suggestion but you cannot say that it could not have happened.
Therefore to use a one-sided, hearsay conversation as proof that Gerry knew that paedophile/ paedophiles were in the vicinity of Luz is ridiculous.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 12:22:38 PM
Mr McKenzie's statement is first hand.

I note you have completely ducked giving 'Gerry's account', which you asked me to explain.

Par for the course.
You asked me to supply something which you know doesn't exist.  Is that very honest of you?  IF Gerry had given an account of what he said on the phone that would be first hand would it not?  So how can Mackenzie's account of what Gerry said also be first hand?  Please be sensible.  For once! 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 29, 2019, 12:23:24 PM
Rob get with it. Read back, the cites were provided.
Provided by you or someone else?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 29, 2019, 12:26:31 PM
I know it was a suggestion but you cannot say that it could not have happened.
Therefore to use a one-sided, hearsay conversation as proof that Gerry knew that paedophile/ paedophiles were in the vicinity of Luz is ridiculous.

Its a report of what Gerry said, not an interpretation of what he may or may not have known.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 12:37:07 PM
Your responses on the Graham Mackenzie statement lead me to believe that you and many of the other supporters are in complete denial and are incapable of dealing with the evidence that you are presented with.

I can report what I hear people say quite accurately, I don't see why Graham Mackenzie should be any different.
Do you?
What does hearsay mean? 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 29, 2019, 12:38:11 PM
Its a report of what Gerry said, not an interpretation of what he may or may not have known.

It's a report of an overheard  one sided conversation which is being used as proof that Gerry McCann knew paedophiles were in the vicinity of Luz
I'm not disagreeing with was was in the report, just challenging if it is correct to use that one sided overheard and rather vague report as proof.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: sadie on May 29, 2019, 12:41:58 PM
Little Alesha McPhail didn't!
Little Carolina Santos didn't either.  She walked off hand in hand with her abductor
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 29, 2019, 12:44:20 PM
What does hearsay mean?

Person A says that person B said that person C said.

Straightforward.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 12:52:46 PM
Person A says that person B said that person C said.

Straightforward.
Can I remind you of where you decided to butt into this conversation?

I wrote:
Quote from: Vertigo Swirl on Today at 11:31:11 AM
Where is the head banging a wall emoticon?  What Gerry was reported to have said was not first hand.  FGS.

You wrote:

Actually, it was.

---

Gerry is person B, Mackenzie is person A.  How is what Gerry said a first hand account if he is person B?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 12:53:56 PM
I don't give a flying Francis Bacon what it means. I know what Graham Mackenzie told the police he heard means. It means at 11 o'clock on May 3rd Gerry was on the phone telling someone that paedophile gangs were operating in Portugal and he thought they had abducted one of his children.

Is there any reason you know of, why Graham Mackenzie wouldn't be as good as me at reporting accurately what he heard was the question I asked you?  Had he been diagnosed with dementia for example?
"Along the lines of" means by his own admission the statement he gave was not accurate, but his interpretation of what he heard.  A second hand account.  Now tell me where I am wrong? 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 01:03:52 PM
I asked you first. So your question to me is second hand. Get in the queue. So why would he been any less accurate than me at reporting what he heard?

I can give an accurate along the lines account of what shocked me four months earlier every single time. Why do you think Graham Mackenzie would be any different?
You have 100% accurate recall of what you heard someone say on the phone 4 months ago as does Graham Mackenzie?  OK, you're both obviously superhuman then.  Well done!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 29, 2019, 01:18:08 PM
He said that after Gerry had opened the shutters from the outside,   so it seems that Gerry managed it without leaving a trace.

Notice he says ALMOST impossible,  fancy that, ey.

Who witnessed Gerry doing this apart from his wife who then got Dianne to try which makes perfect sense to clowns (&^&
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 29, 2019, 01:20:09 PM
Who witnessed Gerry doing this apart from his wife who then got Dianne to try raising them. Clown central springs to mind (&^&

Smudged prints?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 29, 2019, 01:23:12 PM
Little Alesha McPhail didn't!

Madeleine would as Mrs Fenn heard.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 29, 2019, 01:48:22 PM
I don't give a flying Francis Bacon what it means. I know what Graham Mackenzie told the police he heard means. It means at 11 o'clock on May 3rd Gerry was on the phone telling someone that paedophile gangs were operating in Portugal and he thought they had abducted one of his children.

Is there any reason you know of, why Graham Mackenzie wouldn't be as good as me at reporting accurately what he heard was the question I asked you?  Had he been diagnosed with dementia for example?

Unfortunately the UK police didn't tie down the time of this conversation.  Crimestoppers said 11pm, but McKenzie's LP statement didn't confirm it; that was much more vague. Other statements suggest that Gerry McCann was at the Main Reception of the Ocean Club at 11pm meeting the GNR officers.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 29, 2019, 01:52:32 PM
Who witnessed Gerry doing this apart from his wife who then got Dianne to try which makes perfect sense to clowns (&^&

Are you calling me a clown?

Did you watch Peter Mac's video?    He pushed the shutters up no trouble at all.   No damage nothing to prove he had done so.

You seem to imply that things are not true,  but only those that suit you.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 29, 2019, 01:55:27 PM
It would be a one sided conversation with Gerry lol. The witness heard Gerry blaming paedos and this will be important if they solve it.

How do you know that someone may have mentioned to Gerry about there being paedo's in the area?    If I found my child missing and the window open I would think someone had taken my child and paedo would be the first thing I thought of,  wouldn't you?

The Police mentioned not long after Madeleine went missing that if a paedo had taken her the odds are he would have dumped her body within a couple of hours,  now why would the Police be talking paedo's?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 29, 2019, 01:59:08 PM
Whether it was 11, 12 or 1AM is of little difference IMO. The critical point IMO is that Gerry appeared to be claiming that he KNEW paedophile gangs were operating in Portugal and he thought they had abducted his daughter. The bit I can't understand is, if really did he believe that, why did he abandon his children in an unlocked apartment?



It is quite obvious to me that Gerry was told about paedo gangs after Madeleine went missing.    Gerry and Kate have always said the location was a child friendly one and very quiet,  they wouldn't have put their children in danger of an abductor if they had known.  IMO
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 29, 2019, 02:05:22 PM
Then if it's that obvious perhaps you'd be so kind as to inform us, who it was that told him that there were paedophile gangs operating in Portugal?

I don't really care about the child friendly blah, blah, blah malarkey to be honest, but I would be interested to learn WHO told them if it's that obvious?

Could have been one of the Police officers,  could have been Robert Murat or a Nanny  or another neighbour,  I don't know, but they were talking lovely family friendly resort until Madeleine went missing.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 29, 2019, 02:15:56 PM
So you have no evidence whatsoever that anyone had told Gerry about paedophile gangs.  8((()*/

And you have no evidence whatsoever that anyone had NOT told Gerry about paedophile gangs. 8((()*/
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 29, 2019, 02:16:18 PM
So you have no evidence whatsoever that anyone had told Gerry about paedophile gangs.  8((()*/

Just as you have no evidence that anyone didn't.   You just jump to conclusions   8((()*/
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 29, 2019, 02:17:27 PM
Just as you have no evidence that anyone didn't.   You just jump to conclusions   8((()*/

Snap.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 29, 2019, 02:17:37 PM
And you have no evidence whatsoever that anyone had NOT told Gerry about paedophile gangs. 8((()*/



 (&^&  Great minds think alike,  our posts crossed.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 29, 2019, 03:26:03 PM
The imagination is all on your part. There is nothing about that abduction and murder that exactly mirrors Madeleine McCanns disappearance at the moment.

You have to imagine it does, and you do it very well IMO.
It is proven that an intruder ... who left no trace ... entered Alesha's home and removed her from her bed.

There were no witnesses ... there was no physical evidence beyond the fact that Alesha was missing from the premises and a search for her was conducted.

The circumstances mirror Madeleine's disappearance.  The difference being ... we know what happened to Alesha.  We do not know what happened to Madeleine.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 03:30:36 PM
I do have evidence that Gerry knew there were paedophile gangs operating in Portugal and no evidence that anyone told him. And we also have evidence that despite this knowledge he still alleges he abandoned his three children, the targets of paedophiles in an unlocked apartment.

That's why I stick to what I do know and leaves the wild guesses to you. 

Still no abductor I see?  I know that too. 8(0(*
Do you have knowledge of the date and time on which he may have learned of paedo gangs operating in Portugal?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 03:37:30 PM
Yes thanks for confirming there is nothing to prove there is anything that exactly mirrors the child's disappearance.

You have to employ your imagination at this stage and pretend it does.

There was DNA from Aaron Campbell on the dead child that linked him to the crime, but you just keep on pretending if it makes you feel better.
Madeleine’s body was never found so we have no way of know what dna evidence there may have been on her body.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 03:39:13 PM
Graham Mackenzie puts the time and date on it at anywhere BEFORE 11 o'clock on May 3rd.
Then he contradicts himself because he says he first heard a commotion between 10 and 11pm on the 3rd, but heard Gerry’s conversation two hours later which puts it as the early hours of the 4th, so when exactly was this hugely memorable and accurately recalled event?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 29, 2019, 03:40:39 PM
I do have evidence that Gerry knew there were paedophile gangs operating in Portugal and no evidence that anyone told him. And we also have evidence that despite this knowledge he still alleges he abandoned his three children, the targets of paedophiles in an unlocked apartment.

That's why I stick to what I do know and leaves the wild guesses to you. 

Still no abductor I see?  I know that too. 8(0(*

Well if you are happy to stay in your little bubble that is up to you.   Gerry called the resort family friendly and very quiet I wouldn't call that knowing there were paedo gangs around.   Any parent finding their child missing and a window open would think of abduction and first on the list a paedo.   Gerry could have voiced his concerns to the Police and they may have told him that there were Paedophile gangs in Portugal,  you just don't know.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 29, 2019, 03:43:14 PM
Then he contradicts himself because he says he first heard a commotion between 10 and 11pm on the 3rd, but heard Gerry’s conversation two hours later which puts it as the early hours of the 4th, so when exactly was this hugely memorable and accurately recalled event?


He also said he heard Gerry say this  -   Mr McCann was absolutely distraught telling the person receiving the call that he feared 'she (Madeleine McCann) had been taken by paedophiles'.

That would be more accurate in my opinion,   the Paedophile gangs added later.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 29, 2019, 03:45:23 PM
At 11 o'clock he told police heard Gerry tell the caller that he knew there were paedophile gangs operating in Portugal and he thought they had abducted Madeline and your answer to that, is put it down to hearsay.. OK then, if that's your answer, that your answer. As pathetic as it may be IMO.

It's hardly surprising to me that the child is still missing if that's the approach to the evidence that crops up. Because you can say it's hearsay doesn't proves that Graham Mackenzie is wrong.

The old discredit every witness routine is rather telling IMO and suggests to me that you have trouble believing what you post yourself.
What was said ... is hearsay.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 03:47:21 PM
Exactly, so it can hardly exactly mirror Alesha MacPhail's murder can it? Well spotted there.
In every other respect there are very close similarities.  You refuse to see it?  Fine.  Your problem.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 03:58:04 PM
Then there's your revised answer. Sometime before the early hours of May 4th. He isn't contradicting himself at all, your trying to do it for him.

Because he heard the commotion between 10 and 11 and heard Gerry's conversation later on during his search is not a contradiction. Get a grip, the poor guy went out of his way to try to look for the child (unlike her mother) and you've falsely accused him of contradicting himself and going as far as calling him an eavesdropper.

IMO you'd have to be off your head to try and help McCanns. Most of those who have tried to do so have been subjected to insults for their trouble and treated with contempt.

Mr Mackenzie remembered what he was shocked to hear Gerry knew there were paedophile gangs operating in Portugal. That's the important bit.
So if he heard Gerry's conversation two hours after the alarm was raised then there is ample time for someone to have planted the seed in Gerry's mind about paedo gangs operating in Portugal, something he may never have considered a threat to his children hours earlier. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 04:00:03 PM
Then there's your revised answer. Sometime before the early hours of May 4th. He isn't contradicting himself at all, your trying to do it for him.

Because he heard the commotion between 10 and 11 and heard Gerry's conversation later on during his search is not a contradiction. Get a grip, the poor guy went out of his way to try to look for the child (unlike her mother) and you've falsely accused him of contradicting himself and going as far as calling him an eavesdropper.

IMO you'd have to be off your head to try and help McCanns. Most of those who have tried to do so have been subjected to insults for their trouble and treated with contempt.

Mr Mackenzie remembered what he was shocked to hear Gerry knew there were paedophile gangs operating in Portugal. That's the important bit.
By the way how is he not contradicting himself if he says the commotion was between 10 and 11pm, and he heard Gerry talking on his phone two hours later at 11pm?  If this waas David Payne giving a statement you'd be treating it as significant evidence of lying!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Gertrude on May 29, 2019, 04:10:20 PM
Yes thanks for confirming there is nothing to prove there is anything that exactly mirrors the child's disappearance.

You have to employ your imagination at this stage and pretend it does.

There was DNA from Aaron Campbell on the dead child that linked him to the crime, but you just keep on pretending if it makes you feel better.

There was also a figure seen on the beach carrying a large bag, this figure ( Campbell) was also on CCTV. Discarded clothes were also found on the beach near her house. This co-incided with other footage of the suspect.
  In the McCann case apparently, witnesses also saw the parents carrying a large bag, this was said by Kate in her book about when they were questioned by police, she said it was 'nonsense'.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 29, 2019, 04:16:38 PM
Yes thanks for confirming there is nothing to prove there is anything that exactly mirrors the child's disappearance.

You have to employ your imagination at this stage and pretend it does.

There was DNA from Aaron Campbell on the dead child that linked him to the crime, but you just keep on pretending if it makes you feel better.
We know what happened to Alesha and we know who was responsible.

We know that the perpetrator entered her home when she was on holiday and took her from her bed.  We know that he left no trace of his presence.  We know that there were no witnesses to his entry ... and we know that there were no witnesses to his exit.

We do not know what happened to Madeleine.  Nor do we know who was responsible.

But we do know that the perpetrator entered her home when she was on holiday and took her from her bed.  We know that no trace was left of his or her presence.  We know that there were no witnesses to entry ... and we know there were no witnesses to exit.

Abductors are rarely seen at the time ... it is only when the absence of their victim is discovered that it is realised a crime has occurred ... the circumstances surrounding Madeleine and Alesha's disappearances are mirror images of each other.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 29, 2019, 04:22:11 PM
Really. I thought she was abducted?

Correct,  glad you agree  8)-)))
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 29, 2019, 04:23:53 PM
Really. I thought she was abducted?
Have your posts on the forum been supporting the fact that Madeleine was abducted?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 29, 2019, 04:30:17 PM
There was also a figure seen on the beach carrying a large bag, this figure ( Campbell) was also on CCTV. Discarded clothes were also found on the beach near her house. This co-incided with other footage of the suspect.
  In the McCann case apparently, witnesses also saw the parents carrying a large bag, this was said by Kate in her book about when they were questioned by police, she said it was 'nonsense'.
Kate certainly ridiculed the second of the statements you have posted along with some other myths ... but would you have a cite supporting your first?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 29, 2019, 04:33:26 PM
Definitely not, but yours have, hence my surprise to read you finally admit "We do not know what happened to Madeleine."

Are you now saying that you do know what happened? You must do with a statement like that.

Jolly old semantics again, with a bit of cherry picking thrown in.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 29, 2019, 04:34:49 PM
Definitely not, but yours have, hence my surprise to read you finally admit "We do not know what happened to Madeleine."

Are you now saying that you do know what happened? You must do with a statement like that.

I know what the evidence says and I know that the Portuguese and English police are presently following it.  But I do not know what happened to Madeleine and I will hazard a guess that neither do you.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 29, 2019, 04:52:46 PM
Why are you choosing to tell me? Do you have a fondness for Cheeky Monkeys?

I prefer Chimps myself.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 29, 2019, 04:53:47 PM
I know what didn't happen and even Jim Gamble is coming round to that way of thinking.  8(0(*
I have read your posts on here and in my opinion they reflect many things of which knowledge is not one imo.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 29, 2019, 05:09:01 PM
So do I:
"From everything that was exposed from the AUTOS, we conclude that:
A) The minor Madeleine McCann died in the apartment 5A of the Ocean Club resort, on the night of May 3rd of 2007;

B) It was performed a simulation of kidnapping;

C) In order to avoid the death [alarm] of the minor before 22H00, it was created a situation of the children's surveillance by the McCann while the children slept;

D) Kate McCann and Gerald McCann are involved in the occultation of the cadaver of their child Madeleine McCann;

E) At this moment, there seems that there aren't strong indicia that the death of the minor didn't happen due to a tragic accident;

F) From what was obtained until now, everything points out that the McCann, as self-defence, didn't want to deliver immediately and voluntarily the cadaver, existing a strong possibility that the same was transported from the initial place of deposition. This situation is susceptible to raise questions about the circumstances under which the death of the minor occurred."

I don't know what they're following but I always bear that evidence in mind.

Ouch ... is that taken from the convicted torturer Tavares de Almeida's interim report ... prior to the professionally competent police taking over?

It certainly does not reflect what the current investigations are doing ... but it certainly shows up how the Amaral investigators screwed up the case to the extent they couldn't even determine what crime had been committed against Madeleine.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 29, 2019, 05:13:21 PM
Its a report of what Gerry said, not an interpretation of what he may or may not have known.

But it is being used to prove what he knew.
Best tell Cheeky Monkey who "knows" that it proves he knew!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 29, 2019, 05:18:27 PM
Ain't I one lucky chimpanzee (Pan troglodytes) in that case. If only you knew your monkeys, in the way you think you know your abductors.

I can promise you that you will never make a Chimp.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 29, 2019, 05:26:58 PM
This chimp graduated in Architectural Joinery. You don't get in unless you're in the real Chimp club.

Don't make promises that you cannot keep.


Did you attend the Glasgow College of Building?
One of my sons did.
I think it amalgamated with Strathclyde university?
It's all a long time ago.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: sadie on May 29, 2019, 05:36:02 PM
Whether it was 11, 12 or 1AM is of little difference IMO. The critical point IMO is that Gerry appeared to be claiming that he KNEW paedophile gangs were operating in Portugal and he thought they had abducted his daughter. The bit I can't understand is, if he really did believe that, why did he abandon his children in an unlocked apartment?
Ever thought that it could be new news to him?

Ever thought that perhaps he was vocally worrying about the possibility of a paedophile and one of the locals or OC staff had just told him that it was possible cos there were paedophile gangs were operating in PT.   
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: sadie on May 29, 2019, 05:41:11 PM


It is quite obvious to me that Gerry was told about paedo gangs after Madeleine went missing.    Gerry and Kate have always said the location was a child friendly one and very quiet,  they wouldn't have put their children in danger of an abductor if they had known.  IMO

And then, of course, Jane Tanner witnessed a man carrying a child away.  Of course they would think paedos and enquire.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: sadie on May 29, 2019, 05:54:23 PM
Exactly, so it can hardly exactly mirror Alesha MacPhail's murder can it? Well spotted there.

There is almost certainly no body to be found.  I believe I saw a video of her in 2012.  She is probably a well, if strangely, brought up young lady by now... and much loved by her replacement family.  I not only have the video but I have a wealth of supportive "other pointers"
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 29, 2019, 06:13:12 PM
If your being honest, the screwing things up award must go to Mr and Mrs McCann's childcare arrangements. If your not being honest you can give it to police officers who never got the chance to meet the child.

It's evidence that I always bear in mind until Jimmy the abductor has been apprehended and convicted all the same.
"Jimmy the abductor" was found in Alesha's case. 
Now that he is being looked for ... I think it highly probable that the current investigation might do likewise for Madeleine's case with hopefully a better outcome for Madeleine and her family than Alesha was allowed.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 29, 2019, 06:19:46 PM
But it is being used to prove what he knew.
Best tell Cheeky Monkey who "knows" that it proves he knew!

As far as I know there were no known paedophile gangs in Portugal, so Gerry McCann wasn't telling the truth if he said there were. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 29, 2019, 06:24:12 PM
As far as I know there were no known paedophile gangs in Portugal, so Gerry McCann wasn't telling the truth if he said there were.

The Casa Pia case ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 29, 2019, 06:28:42 PM
As far as I know there were no known paedophile gangs in Portugal, so Gerry McCann wasn't telling the truth if he said there were.
How would you be in a position to know everything about paedophile gangs in Portugal?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: slartibartfast on May 29, 2019, 06:49:11 PM
What Graham Mackenzie reported was hearsay ... plain and simple ... and as per definition.

When a person speaks, anyone who hears that including the person speaking can give first hand evidence.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 29, 2019, 06:54:54 PM
When a person speaks, anyone who hears that including the person speaking can give first hand evidence.

Do you believe that in this instance the report of what Gerry said would be used as first hand evidence?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 29, 2019, 06:59:21 PM
Do you believe that in this instance the report of what Gerry said would be used as first hand evidence?

It could be, as it is first hand.

Whether it would be is an entirely different matter.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 29, 2019, 06:59:48 PM
Do you believe that in this instance the report of what Gerry said would be used as first hand evidence?

It wouldn't even make a it into a Court Case, Hearsay or not.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: slartibartfast on May 29, 2019, 07:02:41 PM



 (&^&  Great minds think alike,  our posts crossed.

Don’t go for the full saying.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 29, 2019, 07:04:28 PM
Don’t go for the full saying.

That took a while.
I expected that response hours ago!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 29, 2019, 07:07:22 PM
It wouldn't even make a it into a Court Case, Hearsay or not.

What I do not understand is this utter belief in all that is in the files?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: slartibartfast on May 29, 2019, 07:08:47 PM
It wouldn't even make a it into a Court Case, Hearsay or not.

I’m not sure what sort of offence this would form part of?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: slartibartfast on May 29, 2019, 07:11:56 PM
Do you believe that in this instance the report of what Gerry said would be used as first hand evidence?

Not sure why it would be. This is a discussion forum.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 29, 2019, 07:14:54 PM
What I do not understand is this utter belief in all that is in the files?

Would you rather have utter faith in things not in the files - like Kate's book, for example ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 29, 2019, 07:15:10 PM
Not sure why it would be. This is a discussion forum.

Yes I know that.
I asked you a question as part of a discussion.
I don't see a problem with that.
Can you explain what you mean.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 29, 2019, 07:15:41 PM
Would you rather have utter faith in things not in the files - like Kate's book, for example ?

No.
However her book is written mostly about her experience of the effect of Madeleine's disappearance.
The files are used by  some sceptics as a Bible of their beliefs.

Sceptics believe that the files would supply evidence in any future court case.
I don't imagine Kate's book would be used.
The files as in all police files must contain both accurate and inaccurate statements.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 29, 2019, 08:16:38 PM
How would you be in a position to know everything about paedophile gangs in Portugal?

How would Gerry McCann?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 08:24:19 PM
He clearly heard Gerry during the search. He also clearly heard when the commotion began between 10 and 11, well before the search began. It's really simple!
You are clearly avoiding the obvious contradictions in the times he said these events occurred.  Funny you aren’t so forgiving when it’s David Payne!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 08:27:28 PM
Then prove someone told him please? No one seems to have passed this critical knowledge on to the police or even any of the other tapas. There was ample time for them to do so. Did you forget that?

Gerry looks as if he was caught on the phone trying to plant the seeds of a story in our minds.

You believe whatever you like.. it would just be nice to see some evidence for what you claim to believe once in a while. Wild guesses don't cut the mustard with me I'm afraid.

Was Gerry doing a nationwide broadcast when he was overheard on the phone?  I don’t see how he was planting seeds in our minds otherwise.  There is no definitive proof he said it, there’s no definitive proof he wasn’t given the idea after Madeleine went missing, there’s certainly no proof that Gerry left the apartment unlocked believing that doing so put his kids in danger from being abducted by a predatory paedo.  Do you really think he is that evil?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 08:31:12 PM
As far as I know there were no known paedophile gangs in Portugal, so Gerry McCann wasn't telling the truth if he said there were.
What do you know about the existence or absence of paedo gangs in Portugal in 2007?  Is this an area of expertise of yours?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: slartibartfast on May 29, 2019, 08:32:21 PM
Yes I know that.
I asked you a question as part of a discussion.
I don't see a problem with that.
Can you explain what you mean.

Why would Gerry’s Paedo Gang conversation be used as evidence, first hand or second hand etc.?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 08:32:39 PM
How would Gerry McCann?
He may have been told.  It may have been hearsay.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 29, 2019, 08:33:00 PM
I suspect that any defence solicitor for Jimmy the nasty old abductor would have a whole series of questions for the McCanns and their friends based on what they signed to as the truth at the time. Could you as a juror convict anyone of a crime without a confession, if those witnesses refused to testify? Those allegedly truthful statements that they signed for are in the police files, not any bible.

As in all police files there will be accurate and inaccurate statements .
Fortunately police files and alleged evidence have to be assessed before any charges are made.
I doubt much that is in the files you are so fond of quoting would pass muster.
.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 29, 2019, 08:34:11 PM
Why would Gerry’s Paedo Gang conversation be used as evidence, first hand or second hand etc.?

I've no idea but Cheeky Monkey thinks it is very important!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 08:36:13 PM
I'm not avoiding any contradiction. There is no contradiction there.

"It was later that evening around 10 ' 11 that I heard a commotion on the complex, (he hears commotion) I decided to go out and see what was going on. I walked round a saw a group of people gathered. John Hill the resort manager was there with some of the Mark Warner staff. I heard that a little girl called Maddie was missing, at that point I did not realise which child it was. John Hill was organising a search of the complex as it was thought that she had wandered off at that point in time. I let (my wife) know what was going on and went to join the search. I went to search the area around the back of our apartment where there is a little garden with a big palm tree in the middle. I was looking in the shrubbery and the little gardens to the apartments.

I worked my way around the area, eventually coming around the back of the tennis courts and up towards what I now know to be the McCanns apartment a couple of hours later. (Now he hears Gerry) I was looking in the little gardens on the poolside of that block, I was in the end garden when I heard a male voice, he sounded distraught his voice cracking with emotion. I looked to see who know to be Gerry McCann stood above me on the balcony/patio about 3 metres away speaking on a mobile phone. I cannot recall his exact words but I got the impression that he was speaking to perhaps a family member or someone he was very close to due to the nature of his conversation.

He said something along the lines of there being Paedophile gangs in Portugal and that they had abducted Madeleine. I was so shocked by this, having originally thought that she had just wandered off."

The only obvious contradiction that I can see, is in your own mind.

What’s this then?
Caller name: Graham McKenzie

Mr McKenzie states that:

On e hour into the search by holiday makers of the hotel and surrounding areas, about 23.00 hrs, Mr McKenzie approached the McCann's apartment from the bushes at the rear of the apartment.

He was searching the gardens. He did not know it was the McCann's apartment.

He saw Mr Gerry McCann standing alone in the doorway at the rear of the apartment talking on his mobile telephone.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 08:57:52 PM
In the same statement it states:

Mr McKenzie cannot remember what Mr McCann was wearing at the time. Mr McKenzie is willing to give a witness statement and be contacted by police on his home telephone number above.

Here's his statement:
""It was later that evening around 10 ' 11 that I heard a commotion on the complex, (he hears commotion) I decided to go out and see what was going on. I walked round a saw a group of people gathered. John Hill the resort manager was there with some of the Mark Warner staff. I heard that a little girl called Maddie was missing, at that point I did not realise which child it was. John Hill was organising a search of the complex as it was thought that she had wandered off at that point in time. I let (my wife) know what was going on and went to join the search. I went to search the area around the back of our apartment where there is a little garden with a big palm tree in the middle. I was looking in the shrubbery and the little gardens to the apartments.

I worked my way around the area, eventually coming around the back of the tennis courts and up towards what I now know to be the McCanns apartment a couple of hours later. (Now he hears Gerry) I was looking in the little gardens on the poolside of that block, I was in the end garden when I heard a male voice, he sounded distraught his voice cracking with emotion. I looked to see who know to be Gerry McCann stood above me on the balcony/patio about 3 metres away speaking on a mobile phone. I cannot recall his exact words but I got the impression that he was speaking to perhaps a family member or someone he was very close to due to the nature of his conversation.

He said something along the lines of there being Paedophile gangs in Portugal and that they had abducted Madeleine. I was so shocked by this, having originally thought that she had just wandered off."

The only contradiction in Mr Mackenzie's statement is in your mind.
Will you kindly stop saying that, I find it very insulting.  I have just proved that Mackenzie contradicted himself.  You can’t accept it, that’s your problem, not mine. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 08:59:20 PM
Why Portugal is a haven for paedophiles - the disturbing backcloth to the Madeleine case
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-488654/Why-Portugal-haven-paedophiles--disturbing-backcloth-Madeleine-case.html
British paedophile 'with links to Portugal' suspected of abducting Madeleine
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/british-paedophile-with-links-to-portugal-suspected-of-abducting-madeleine-6632553.html
Madeleine McCann 'was snatched by paedophile ring to order'
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/2512536/Madeleine-McCann-was-snatched-by-paedophile-ring-to-order.html
Informant claimed Madeleine was stolen to order
https://www.reuters.com/article/britain-mccann/informant-claimed-madeleine-was-stolen-to-order-idUKZWE16124520080814


Seeds takes a little time to sprout, and there's just a little evidence that sprout they did.
All down to Gerry McCann, the media would never have thought of it otherwise I suppose?   *%87
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 09:12:00 PM
Well he was certainly first off the mark about there being Paedophile gangs in Portugal and that they had abducted Madeleine, sure he was? And it certainly grew legs, sure it did? And according to Owen Jones, they were bunging Bell Pottinger Ł500,000 to be kept on the front pages for a year. Paedophile stories and all.

Just another example of our Gerry's remarkable insight throughout the entire affair. From day one, he was geared right up, for the long term.
You may not be aware of this but the Casa Pia scandal (involving a gang of paedos) was a hot topic of discussion and interest at the time in Portugal.

“As a result, the scandal and the Lisbon trial inundated public life with sordid child abuse stories, leading to a media circus from 2003 to 2005”
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 09:19:21 PM
So is that how Gerry was first to come up with the idea? He knew about previous sex scandals in Portugal?
Maybe he had heard of Casa Pia which was not just sex scandal but paedo ring sex scandal invloving many prominent and high level Portuguese men.  If your daughter disappeared in the night in Portugal in 2007, I don’t suppose the idea that she’d been taken by a predatory paedo would ever have crossed your mind would it?  *%87
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 09:38:12 PM
Then why was he abandoning his three children in an allegedly unlocked apartment if he knew? *%87
I shouldn’t think it crossed his mind until his child vanished in the night.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 09:45:00 PM
Interesting:

Pedro Namora, a former Casa Pia orphan who witnessed 11 rapes on fellow orphans, during which they were tied to their beds, sympathises with the McCanns. He believes elements in the force have conspired to suppress both scandals, fearing damage to the country's reputation.

"Portugal is a paedophiles' paradise," said Mr Namora, now a lawyer campaigning on behalf of the Casa Pia victims. "If all the names come out, this will be an earthquake in Portugal. There is a massive, sophisticated network at play here - stretching from the government to the judiciary and the police.

"The network is enormous and extremely powerful. There are magistrates, ambassadors, police, politicians - all have procured children from Casa Pia. It is extremely difficult to break this down. These people cover for each other, because if one is arrested, they all are arrested. They don't want anyone to know."

Now 44, Mr Namora watched as friends sank into alcoholism, drug addiction and death after their traumatic childhood experiences at Casa Pia. "I was the only one who made it," he said. "What could I do? I couldn't keep silent."

He has received death threats and warnings about what will happen to his own children, after taking up the case when an orphan called "Joel" approached him, saying prominent paedophiles were using Casa Pia as a "supermarket for children".

Mr Namora has been threatened after fighting on behalf of the abused children he grew up with.

After being telephoned by a stranger offering to pay off his mortgage, he was told the exact movements of his own three children, and warned that they and their father would come to a grisly end unless he shut up.

An open, warm man, Mr Namora makes an unlikely conspiracytheorist-But he believes the case, which he brought to light in 2003, will underscore Portugal's growing attraction for paedophiles, which has seen six children disappear in recent years.

One reason for this attraction is that the law was quietly relaxed last year, ahead of the forthcoming trial, meaning that repeat offences against the same child would merit only a single charge - and a lesser sentence.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 09:55:41 PM
What's interesting about any of that in relation to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann and what Graham Mackenzie told police he heard? Do you think Gerry knew all that and still abandoned his three children in an allegedly unlocked apartment?
I don’t think so, do you?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 29, 2019, 10:08:31 PM
I've been quite clear about what I think. I think Graham Mackenzie caught Gerry planting the seeds of a story that was eventually relayed to the minds of the public. He caught him doing it at a time any normal distressed father would have been out looking for the missing child whom he abandoned in an allegedly unlocked apartment. If both doors were unlocked that would have been my thoughts. If I knew before I left the apartment that gangs of paedophiles were in operation I certainly wouldn't have left the doors unlocked for them to help themselves. Would you?

That may very well be one of the most interesting and revealing posts you have been responsible for making.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 29, 2019, 10:14:09 PM
I can't say that about yours.

Mine wasn't intended to be ... but then, probably neither was yours.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 10:15:02 PM
I've been quite clear about what I think. I think Graham Mackenzie caught Gerry planting the seeds of a story that was eventually relayed to the minds of the public. He caught him doing it at a time any normal distressed father would have been out looking for the missing child whom he abandoned in an allegedly unlocked apartment. If both doors were unlocked that would have been my thoughts. If I knew before I left the apartment that gangs of paedophiles were in operation I certainly wouldn't have left the doors unlocked for them to help themselves. Would you?
You must believe that Gerry knew in advance that this would be a massive news story and had the presence of mind to start planting seeds in the minds of the public within hours of the disappearance.  Here’s something that might interest you.  The moment I heard about Madeleine, before I’d even seen her picture or knew anything about her parents my first sickening thought was “taken by a paedo”.  I didn’t need any seeds to be planted by anyone. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 10:22:38 PM
I can hardly think that, can I? It took some time for Gerry to set up the fund and begin bunging Bell Pottinger Ł500,000 to keep their paedophile stories on the front pages of the UK papers for a year. Did they really think that an abductor was going to smuggle the most famous missing child in UK history back over to the UK?  *%87
I don’t really know what you’re on about tbh.  As soon as you can’t answer a point you shift the goalposts on to something else.  Believe whatever you want, I really am too tired to care right now.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: sadie on May 29, 2019, 11:04:11 PM
Interesting:

Pedro Namora, a former Casa Pia orphan who witnessed 11 rapes on fellow orphans, during which they were tied to their beds, sympathises with the McCanns. He believes elements in the force have conspired to suppress both scandals, fearing damage to the country's reputation.

"Portugal is a paedophiles' paradise," said Mr Namora, now a lawyer campaigning on behalf of the Casa Pia victims. "If all the names come out, this will be an earthquake in Portugal. There is a massive, sophisticated network at play here - stretching from the government to the judiciary and the police.

"The network is enormous and extremely powerful. There are magistrates, ambassadors, police, politicians - all have procured children from Casa Pia. It is extremely difficult to break this down. These people cover for each other, because if one is arrested, they all are arrested. They don't want anyone to know."

Now 44, Mr Namora watched as friends sank into alcoholism, drug addiction and death after their traumatic childhood experiences at Casa Pia. "I was the only one who made it," he said. "What could I do? I couldn't keep silent."

He has received death threats and warnings about what will happen to his own children, after taking up the case when an orphan called "Joel" approached him, saying prominent paedophiles were using Casa Pia as a "supermarket for children".

Mr Namora has been threatened after fighting on behalf of the abused children he grew up with.

After being telephoned by a stranger offering to pay off his mortgage, he was told the exact movements of his own three children, and warned that they and their father would come to a grisly end unless he shut up.

An open, warm man, Mr Namora makes an unlikely conspiracytheorist-But he believes the case, which he brought to light in 2003, will underscore Portugal's growing attraction for paedophiles, which has seen six children disappear in recent years.

One reason for this attraction is that the law was quietly relaxed last year, ahead of the forthcoming trial, meaning that repeat offences against the same child would merit only a single charge - and a lesser sentence.
Whilst in Lisbon, I made a point of visiting Casa Pia.   Immaculate magnificent white building set behind formal gardens, facing the river.  We walked up the RH Side of it (east) and just across the road was the Orphanage.  Also immaculate.  Saw the gate where the Dr, (a  Paedo) used to rev the engine of his powerful red sports car  engine before driving in.

A huge shiver ran down my spine.  Then the house that almost certainly was Bibis, by the state of the garden.  Another shiver ran down my spine

Seems to me, they make everything look whiter than white


This was the area where big red hearts were painted on walls, which became a thread on this forum a few years ago.  And in the big King Eduardo VII  park there was a shop with a similar big red heart in the window.  Were they selling boys from there, I wonder?  This park had a reputation when we were over there … so is it still going on?



Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 29, 2019, 11:11:37 PM
But I know what you're on about. When I first heard the story of the jemmied shutters and missing child I thought like you. Until that is, I learnt there was no jemmied shutter and the father had given police two completely different versions of the last time he seen his missing child alive.

You really don't think Lee Rainbow and the British police investigated that the contradictions were real before writing his conclusions? I thought it was only the Portuguese old bill who were incompetent?

What point didn't I answer? Shifting the goal posts, you're too tired all of a sudden?

I'll crack the jokes!

GM"s story of having used a key to enter 5a via the front door in the hour immediately before Maddie disappeared was extremely convenient.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 29, 2019, 11:24:33 PM
Everything has crossed my mind but as you pointed out, I'm not prepared to accept they left both doors unlocked, due to the fact both doors lead on to the street were the children would have been exposed to the dangers of the traffic. To do so would have been insane IMO.. and Gerry McCann has never struck me as being insane. That's ignoring the fact all their belongings were in the apartment.

As has been mentioned several times in the past, tourists going abroad often tend to leave their common sense at Passport Control.  Leaving three toddlers alone for any length of time in an unsecured holiday apartment was lunacy imo.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 11:34:31 PM
It still happens to this day and according to the accompanying survey around 35% would leave their kids alone in a hotel to eat downstairs

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/family-holidays/was-I-wrong-to-leave-my-baby-sleeping-in-a-hotel-room/
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 29, 2019, 11:39:15 PM
Don’t go for the full saying.
https://mystudentvoices.com/4-quotes-that-you-have-been-terribly-misquoting-6b2233d3212d
What it actually means
The original saying is as follows “Great minds think alike, though fools seldom differ.” Unlike the other sayings, this phrase isn’t used to teach a lesson, rather it is a humorous expression. The second half of the expression, “fools seldom differ.” suggests that the people that came to the same conclusion aren’t so smart after all.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 29, 2019, 11:54:13 PM
Everything has crossed my mind but as you pointed out, I'm not prepared to accept they left both doors unlocked, due to the fact both doors lead on to the street were the children would have been exposed to the dangers of the traffic. To do so would have been insane IMO.. and Gerry McCann has never struck me as being insane. That's ignoring the fact all their belongings were in the apartment.
'If the front door is closed it appears "locked" as it required a key to open it.  But from the inside it is always  able to be opened using the lever.
If the door was deadlocked a key would be needed to unlock it from the inside or the outside.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 30, 2019, 12:04:17 AM
That's a very interesting article IMO. I can see no mention that even 1% of the 30% left their hotel room door unlocked. And those parents had the added reassurance that their babies were restricted to a cot. The writer is talking about their "11 month-old baby."

It must just be another coincidence that it was the one child not restricted to a cot who went missing in Madeleine McCann's case.
My scenario: Got up. Got out. Going to the secondary reception entrance.  Didn't appear to go through it as noted by the tracker dogs.
I have to consider whether someone had shut the secondary reception door for some reason.  Unless they thought there was a need for that door to stay open, why not have it closed after 9:30 at night.

I may be wrong and I don't have the information to hand, but wasn't it possible to lock the front door from inside with a key regardless of the latch? I'm a carpenter and I'm not aware of any lock that cannot be locked from the inside.

I stand to be corrected if I'm wrong?

Yes if Gerry locked it from the inside, then it would be deadlocked from the inside, but they tell us they never did that.  If you locked it from the inside you can only get out via the unlocked patio door.   But Gerry says he unlocked the front door so I assume he had a key with him.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 30, 2019, 08:15:02 AM
I can only speak for myself and those who I have been on holiday with.. and not one of them have ever went out and left their doors unlocked and left their kids at home. Maybe that's a Glasgow thing.. but then Gerry is from Glasgow. We're talking about mature adults here in charge of young children. Both doors exposed the children to real danger from traffic.

Has Gerry ever struck you as being that foolish?

I believe the McCann's had a nanny who looked after the children when they went out at home.

Some people behave differently on holiday,  don't know why,  they came to an arrangement with friends to do a Mark Warner checking system.   They thought the place was safe.

I've seen parents go to sleep whilst their children are playing in the pool on resorts,  would you go to sleep at home with your child in a pool?   No you wouldn't so why do people think it's fine to do that on holiday.   I've seen it on the beach too with the danger of the sea.

You say in Glasgow people don't leave their children alone at home with the doors open,  how about on holiday,  any of them go camping?   Any of them have caravans and meet up with other families on holiday at a resort and leave their children alone in a caravan or tent?   Go to sleep on the beach or by the pool,  get stuck into a good book on the beach or by the pool.   Children can get abducted outside as well you know.   They should have been safe tucked up asleep in their beds.    I would think that is that last place an abductor would look to abduct a child with so many of them outside not being looked after properly.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 30, 2019, 08:39:58 AM
I believe the McCann's had a nanny who looked after the children when they went out at home.

Some people behave differently on holiday,  don't know why,  they came to an arrangement with friends to do a Mark Warner checking system.   They thought the place was safe.

I've seen parents go to sleep whilst their children are playing in the pool on resorts,  would you go to sleep at home with your child in a pool?   No you wouldn't so why do people think it's fine to do that on holiday.   I've seen it on the beach too with the danger of the sea.

You say in Glasgow people don't leave their children alone at home with the doors open,  how about on holiday,  any of them go camping?   Any of them have caravans and meet up with other families on holiday at a resort and leave their children alone in a caravan or tent?   Go to sleep on the beach or by the pool,  get stuck into a good book on the beach or by the pool.   Children can get abducted outside as well you know.   They should have been safe tucked up asleep in their beds.    I would think that is that last place an abductor would look to abduct a child with so many of them outside not being looked after properly.

Until its determined just what did happen,theres nothing to suggest the Ocean Club wasn't safe.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 30, 2019, 08:44:07 AM
I believe the McCann's had a nanny who looked after the children when they went out at home.

Some people behave differently on holiday,  don't know why,  they came to an arrangement with friends to do a Mark Warner checking system.   They thought the place was safe.

I've seen parents go to sleep whilst their children are playing in the pool on resorts,  would you go to sleep at home with your child in a pool?   No you wouldn't so why do people think it's fine to do that on holiday.   I've seen it on the beach too with the danger of the sea.

You say in Glasgow people don't leave their children alone at home with the doors open,  how about on holiday,  any of them go camping?   Any of them have caravans and meet up with other families on holiday at a resort and leave their children alone in a caravan or tent?   Go to sleep on the beach or by the pool,  get stuck into a good book on the beach or by the pool.   Children can get abducted outside as well you know.   They should have been safe tucked up asleep in their beds.    I would think that is that last place an abductor would look to abduct a child with so many of them outside not being looked after properly.

Why do you assume it's just 'holiday behaviour' that you've observed? Leopards and spots spring to my mind.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 30, 2019, 08:48:15 AM
Until its determined just what did happen,theres nothing to suggest the Ocean Club wasn't safe.

There's been a concerted effort to suggest that it wasn't, but where's the evicence? In my opinion it's all rumour and most of it originates in the UK.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 30, 2019, 08:51:43 AM
There's been a concerted effort to suggest that it wasn't, but where's the evicence? In my opinion it's all rumour and most of it originates in the UK.

I believe there’s a debate about heresay some where around here. (&^&
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on May 30, 2019, 09:35:08 AM
Why do you assume it's just 'holiday behaviour' that you've observed? Leopards and spots spring to my mind.

I'm not it's just holiday behaviour,   it's just what I have observed whilst on holiday myself.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 30, 2019, 09:37:41 AM
I believe there’s a debate about heresay some where around here. (&^&

I just don't understand why so many British people failed to make absolutly sure that the crimes they allrge were committed against their children were recorded by the Portuguese police. According to Kate McCann the British Consul only knew about the crimes because the tour operators told him. That suggests that none of the victims approached the British Consulate at the time either. It seems to me that not even one pf them made any fuss at all at the time.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 30, 2019, 10:13:29 AM
I just don't understand why so many British people failed to make absolutly sure that the crimes they allrge were committed against their children were recorded by the Portuguese police. According to Kate McCann the British Consul only knew about the crimes because the tour operators told him. That suggests that none of the victims approached the British Consulate at the time either. It seems to me that not even one pf them made any fuss at all at the time.

None of the victims families bothered to approach the press & give warning to other families that a nocturnal nasty was at large & being ignored in the Algarve.

You'd be forgiven for thinking that this smelly, pot bellied, surgical masked, serial rogue intruder didn't actually exist.

I've seen more evidence of the existence of Father Christmas to be fair.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 30, 2019, 10:36:11 AM
None of the victims families bothered to approach the press & give warning to other families that a nocturnal nasty was at large & being ignored in the Algarve.

You'd be forgiven for thinking that this smelly, pot bellied, surgical masked, serial rogue intruder didn't actually exist.

I've seen more evidence of the existence of Father Christmas to be fair.

Norad tracks Santa every Christmas!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on May 30, 2019, 10:44:09 AM
Norad tracks Santa every Christmas!

Yay.  I watch that.  Really good fun.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 30, 2019, 11:15:14 AM
I just don't understand why so many British people failed to make absolutly sure that the crimes they allrge were committed against their children were recorded by the Portuguese police. According to Kate McCann the British Consul only knew about the crimes because the tour operators told him. That suggests that none of the victims approached the British Consulate at the time either. It seems to me that not even one pf them made any fuss at all at the time.

Once again you have got it entirely wrong.  Kate wrote in her book ...
Snip
One of the most concerning and upsetting pieces of information to emerge quite early was the record of sexual crimes against children in the Algarve.
This discovery made me feel physically sick. I read of five cases of British children on holiday being sexually abused in their beds while their parents slept in another room.
In three further incidents, children encountered an intruder in their bedrooms, who was presumably disturbed before he had the chance to carry out an assault.

I guessed these were the reports that Bill Henderson, the British consul at the time of Madeleine’s abduction, had told me about.
These incidents had occurred within an hour’s drive of Praia da Luz over the three years prior to Madeleine’s disappearance.

The PJ had never mentioned any of them to us. In fact, I gathered from the files, some of them hadn’t even been recorded by the authorities at the time they were reported (evidently, they were not considered to be actual crimes).
So they might never have come to light if the parents of these children hadn’t been brave enough to come forward to the British police after Madeleine was taken and relive their nightmares.
They did so in the belief that there could be a link between what had happened to their children and what had happened to her.

It broke my heart to read the terrible accounts of these devastated parents and the experiences of their poor children.

Unbelievably (or maybe not, by this time), there was a familiar thread running through them all. The parents had called the police; they hadn’t felt that the crime was taken seriously, by the police or by their tour operators; statements were often not taken; DNA and fingerprint evidence was frequently not sought.

In most instances there was no sign of a break-in. I cried for hours after reading a letter of complaint from one mother to the GNR regarding the sexual abuse of her daughter and the lack of proper attention paid to it by the authorities.
The final line in particular has haunted me ever since:
It is difficult to see with this lack of investigation or interest how a profile of this man can be built up. It did not appear to us that there was any great incentive or determination to find the offender and bring him to justice . . . Furthermore, it could all have been so much worse . . . indeed this man could go on to do much worse to another child if he’s not stopped now.
Kate McCann

The Portuguese police did know at the time of these attacks ... they just didn't bother to take any action.  But the knowledge of what had happened to these children should have dictated that the investigation into Madeline's disappearance should have taken an entirely different tack from the one followed by Amaral.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 30, 2019, 11:35:38 AM
Once again you have got it entirely wrong.  Kate wrote in her book ...
Snip
One of the most concerning and upsetting pieces of information to emerge quite early was the record of sexual crimes against children in the Algarve.
This discovery made me feel physically sick. I read of five cases of British children on holiday being sexually abused in their beds while their parents slept in another room.
In three further incidents, children encountered an intruder in their bedrooms, who was presumably disturbed before he had the chance to carry out an assault.

I guessed these were the reports that Bill Henderson, the British consul at the time of Madeleine’s abduction, had told me about.
These incidents had occurred within an hour’s drive of Praia da Luz over the three years prior to Madeleine’s disappearance.

The PJ had never mentioned any of them to us. In fact, I gathered from the files, some of them hadn’t even been recorded by the authorities at the time they were reported (evidently, they were not considered to be actual crimes).
So they might never have come to light if the parents of these children hadn’t been brave enough to come forward to the British police after Madeleine was taken and relive their nightmares.
They did so in the belief that there could be a link between what had happened to their children and what had happened to her.

It broke my heart to read the terrible accounts of these devastated parents and the experiences of their poor children.

Unbelievably (or maybe not, by this time), there was a familiar thread running through them all. The parents had called the police; they hadn’t felt that the crime was taken seriously, by the police or by their tour operators; statements were often not taken; DNA and fingerprint evidence was frequently not sought.

In most instances there was no sign of a break-in. I cried for hours after reading a letter of complaint from one mother to the GNR regarding the sexual abuse of her daughter and the lack of proper attention paid to it by the authorities.
The final line in particular has haunted me ever since:
It is difficult to see with this lack of investigation or interest how a profile of this man can be built up. It did not appear to us that there was any great incentive or determination to find the offender and bring him to justice . . . Furthermore, it could all have been so much worse . . . indeed this man could go on to do much worse to another child if he’s not stopped now.
Kate McCann

The Portuguese police did know at the time of these attacks ... they just didn't bother to take any action.  But the knowledge of what had happened to these children should have dictated that the investigation into Madeline's disappearance should have taken an entirely different tack from the one followed by Amaral.

So after Madeleine disappeared these crimes were reported to the British police. How was Kate McCann able to read about them then?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 30, 2019, 12:00:57 PM
Once again you have got it entirely wrong.  Kate wrote in her book ...
Snip
One of the most concerning and upsetting pieces of information to emerge quite early was the record of sexual crimes against children in the Algarve.
This discovery made me feel physically sick. I read of five cases of British children on holiday being sexually abused in their beds while their parents slept in another room.
In three further incidents, children encountered an intruder in their bedrooms, who was presumably disturbed before he had the chance to carry out an assault.

I guessed these were the reports that Bill Henderson, the British consul at the time of Madeleine’s abduction, had told me about.
These incidents had occurred within an hour’s drive of Praia da Luz over the three years prior to Madeleine’s disappearance.

The PJ had never mentioned any of them to us. In fact, I gathered from the files, some of them hadn’t even been recorded by the authorities at the time they were reported (evidently, they were not considered to be actual crimes).
So they might never have come to light if the parents of these children hadn’t been brave enough to come forward to the British police after Madeleine was taken and relive their nightmares.
They did so in the belief that there could be a link between what had happened to their children and what had happened to her.

It broke my heart to read the terrible accounts of these devastated parents and the experiences of their poor children.

Unbelievably (or maybe not, by this time), there was a familiar thread running through them all. The parents had called the police; they hadn’t felt that the crime was taken seriously, by the police or by their tour operators; statements were often not taken; DNA and fingerprint evidence was frequently not sought.

In most instances there was no sign of a break-in. I cried for hours after reading a letter of complaint from one mother to the GNR regarding the sexual abuse of her daughter and the lack of proper attention paid to it by the authorities.
The final line in particular has haunted me ever since:
It is difficult to see with this lack of investigation or interest how a profile of this man can be built up. It did not appear to us that there was any great incentive or determination to find the offender and bring him to justice . . . Furthermore, it could all have been so much worse . . . indeed this man could go on to do much worse to another child if he’s not stopped now.
Kate McCann

The Portuguese police did know at the time of these attacks ... they just didn't bother to take any action.  But the knowledge of what had happened to these children should have dictated that the investigation into Madeline's disappearance should have taken an entirely different tack from the one followed by Amaral.

This is at total odds with my understanding of the case and our family experiences in Portugal.

First, I have seen NO reason as to why Kate would get a complete set of files, while T D & H got files with key bits removed.  The annex on sexual offences was removed because Portuguese law required that it was removed.  Using one of your favourite words, to suggest otherwise is risible.

Second, we have had a number of 'run-ins' with the police and the bombeiros.   They are just as bureaucratic as UK police.  There's a form for everything.  I would not be surprised in the least to find there is a form for f*rting in a public place.

Luckman seemed quite unaware of this spate of assaults.  Doesn't that tell you something?  Were NONE of these people going to the local English press with their story?

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 30, 2019, 12:30:26 PM
So after Madeleine disappeared these crimes were reported to the British police. How was Kate McCann able to read about them then?

Indeed!

...and why did those parents of those children not come forward to the sun sleazepaper to make a few bob-

If you read between the lines Kate is telling us that it didn't matter that they were out drinking and dining- Maddie could have been abducted and sexually abused anyway- deflection!  Also, worth noting she mentions the sex attacker managed to get in and out while parents were sleeping without much evidence of a breakin. Yet  their story is a BIG DRAMA that shutters are jemmied- curtains blowing etc.


I am not saying I do not believe police can hide/ignore complaints about sex abuse - It happened for many years  in the UK with the Asian Grooming gangs. It may have happened in PDL.

 I also know as a fact that paedophiles will be more likely to live/hang around holiday resorts/play areas/ schools -or befriend families with children.to gain access to their 'prey'. Again, very plausable that a paedo gang was/is active in the Med area.
Do I believe Maddie was abducted from her bed by one of them... No.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 30, 2019, 12:31:30 PM
There's been a concerted effort to suggest that it wasn't, but where's the evicence? In my opinion it's all rumour and most of it originates in the UK.
I proved the other day that at least one of the Tapas staff knew the parents of 4 families with kids (and there could have been others that we don't know about) had left kids in the apartments while the parents were dining.   

What Ocean Club couldn't guarantee was that the door at the secondary reception would remain open at all times just in case any of the children ventured out to find their parents.

To me that is a dangerous situation that had not been resolved. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 30, 2019, 12:37:50 PM
I proved the other day that at least one of the Tapas staff knew the parents of 4 families with kids (and there could have been others that we don't know about) had left kids in the apartments while the parents were dining.   

What Ocean Club couldn't guarantee was that the door at the secondary reception would remain open at all times just in case any of the children ventured out to find their parents.

Is there any sensible reason why they should? 

Had there been previous incidents of young children wandering and trying to gain entrance ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 30, 2019, 12:56:45 PM
Is there any sensible reason why they should? 

Had there been previous incidents of young children wandering and trying to gain entrance ?
OC would be setting a trap for the parents.  If the door was open 95% of the time (they might think it will be always open), but if it got closed at the moment it was required to be open a child is then locked out on the street with no way of getting into the Tapas area.

"Had there been previous incidents of young children wandering and trying to gain entrance?"  Who knows?  They aren't going to publish that sort of information willingly.
There is a first time for everything.  I think it is a risk that should have been foreseen.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 30, 2019, 01:06:41 PM
OC would be setting a trap for the parents.  If the door was open 95% of the time (they might think it will be always open), but if it got closed at the moment it was required to be open a child is then locked out on the street with no way of getting into the Tapas area.

"Had there been previous incidents of young children wandering and trying to gain entrance?"  Who knows?  They aren't going to publish that sort of information willingly.
There is a first time for everything.  I think it is a risk that should have been foreseen.

I totally disagree.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 30, 2019, 01:09:18 PM
I totally disagree.
You can disagree if you like.  Maybe the OC assumed that the parents would always deadlock the doors and hence never have wandering kids.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 30, 2019, 01:17:45 PM
You can disagree if you like.  Maybe the OC assumed that the parents would always deadlock the doors and hence never have wandering kids.

A perfectly reasonable conclusion to reach -IMO.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 30, 2019, 01:21:05 PM
You can disagree if you like.  Maybe the OC assumed that the parents would always deadlock the doors and hence never have wandering kids.

Where in any contract would a company assume responsibility for childcare from parents who didn't use the official childcare facilities?  Some times you should re read what you type.

The parents a 100% responsible for their childcare arrangements.

It was descided back in the UK they would be leaving the children unattended every night and the checking would be 'listening' at a door . they missed children crying onat least one occasion as MBM was quoted as telling her parents there was crying  while they were not there and Mrs Fenn Also claim s crying when parents were not there.

So their checking was tried and tested and found to be lacking- THAT  IMO-was the elephant in the room - let us stop leaving the children alone something could go wrong... ahh yes let us do something about that- leave a door unlocked to let the children come to us. saves us having to ge to them?????? seems to be the solution to that bloody inconvenience.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 30, 2019, 01:41:56 PM
Where in any contract would a company assume responsibility for childcare from parents who didn't use the official childcare facilities?  Some times you should re read what you type.

The parents a 100% responsible for their childcare arrangements.

It was descided back in the UK they would be leaving the children unattended every night and the checking would be 'listening' at a door . they missed children crying onat least one occasion as MBM was quoted as telling her parents there was crying  while they were not there and Mrs Fenn Also claim s crying when parents were not there.

So their checking was tried and tested and found to be lacking- THAT  IMO-was the elephant in the room - let us stop leaving the children alone something could go wrong... ahh yes let us do something about that- leave a door unlocked to let the children come to us. saves us having to go to them?????? seems to be the solution to that bloody inconvenience.
I fully understand that but once Kate decides to tell Madeleine where she could find her parents, that only makes sense if Kate thought the door at the secondary reception would remain open while they were dining.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 30, 2019, 01:45:39 PM
I fully understand that but once Kate decides to tell Madeleine where she could find her parents, that only makes sense if Kate thought the door at the secondary reception would remain open while they were dining.

So how would that be the fault of the company?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 30, 2019, 01:47:03 PM
I fully understand that but once Kate decides to tell Madeleine where she could find her parents, that only makes sense if Kate thought the door at the secondary reception would remain open while they were dining.

As the restaurant was open to members of the public, how were they supposed to get in?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 30, 2019, 01:52:43 PM
If various members of the group were going backwards and forwards to check on children, how did they get in and out of the reception door?

Maybe it wasn't locked at all.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 30, 2019, 01:56:25 PM
So how would that be the fault of the company?
You have admitted that OC made the assumption the parents leaving children unattended would deadlock the kids in the rooms.  If that is their assumption did they make that a rule?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 30, 2019, 01:59:36 PM
As the restaurant was open to members of the public, how were they supposed to get in?
So what are you saying exactly?  Do the management have the right to say, "no more members of the public tonight".   I think there could be times when the management might say we have had enough business today.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 30, 2019, 02:00:14 PM
You have admitted that OC made the assumption the parents leaving children unattended would deadlock the kids in the rooms.  If that is their assumption did they make that a rule?

Where did they make this alleged assumption?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 30, 2019, 02:04:23 PM
If various members of the group were going backwards and forwards to check on children, how did they get in and out of the reception door?

Maybe it wasn't locked at all.
That is right, was it left open was it left closed but unlocked, was it locked at times?  If it was closed and unlocked would a 3-4 year old be able to turn the handle, or open it however it was to be opened. 

Where did they make this alleged assumption?
It was Jassi's opinion that was their assumption.  My wording could have been more clearer, sorry.

Rob: "Maybe the OC assumed that the parents would always deadlock the doors and hence never have wandering kids."

Jassi: "A perfectly reasonable conclusion to reach -IMO."

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 30, 2019, 02:08:58 PM
That is right, was it left open was it left closed but unlocked, was it locked at times?  If it was closed and unlocked would a 3-4 year old be able to turn the handle, or open it however it was to be opened. 
It was Jassi's opinion that was their assumption.  My wording could have been more clearer, sorry.

Correction. I don't recall making any claim about doors being deadocked.

My opinion was that the company would assume that parents were looking after their children properly.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 30, 2019, 02:10:35 PM
You have admitted that OC made the assumption the parents leaving children unattended would deadlock the kids in the rooms.  If that is their assumption did they make that a rule?

I made no such claim about doors being deadlocked.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 30, 2019, 02:11:49 PM
Correction. I don't recall making any claim about doors being deadocked.

My opinion was that the company would assume that parents were looking after their children properly.
This is what was said:
Rob: "Maybe the OC assumed that the parents would always deadlock the doors and hence never have wandering kids."

Jassi: "A perfectly reasonable conclusion to reach -IMO."

Did OC assume that the parents deadlocked the doors if kids are left in the rooms?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 30, 2019, 02:13:21 PM
I made no such claim about doors being deadlocked.
You said it was "a perfectly reasonable conclusion to reach".
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 30, 2019, 02:15:20 PM
That is right, was it left open was it left closed but unlocked, was it locked at times?  If it was closed and unlocked would a 3-4 year old be able to turn the handle, or open it however it was to be opened. 
It was Jassi's opinion that was their assumption.

OK.  Just a clarification.

Every cafe/restaurant/bar in Portugal is obliged by law to publish its opening hours.  Typically that permit goes on the front door.

The Tapas was working during its opening hours.  It was accessible by members of the public.  The doors are simple glass doors, secured by a metal key in a bog standard lock.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 30, 2019, 02:15:29 PM
This is what was said:
Rob: "Maybe the OC assumed that the parents would always deadlock the doors and hence never have wandering kids."

Jassi: "A perfectly reasonable conclusion to reach -IMO."

Did OC assume that the parents deadlocked the doors if kids are left in the rooms?

My response was to the bit about children wandering., not deadlocking of doors, though I agree it was included in the quote.

I don't think the company would want small children wandering unaccompanied into the Tapas area, on safety grounds.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Carana on May 30, 2019, 02:18:56 PM
None of the victims families bothered to approach the press & give warning to other families that a nocturnal nasty was at large & being ignored in the Algarve.

You'd be forgiven for thinking that this smelly, pot bellied, surgical masked, serial rogue intruder didn't actually exist.

I've seen more evidence of the existence of Father Christmas to be fair.

If your kid had been sexually assaulted would you go to the media and have every tabloid on your doorstep?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 30, 2019, 02:21:06 PM
OK.  Just a clarification.

Every cafe/restaurant/bar in Portugal is obliged by law to publish its opening hours.  Typically that permit goes on the front door.

The Tapas was working during its opening hours.  It was accessible by members of the public.  The doors are simple glass doors, secured by a metal key in a bog standard lock.
Quite often there is a disclaimer:
"Rights of admission are reserved by the management"  There are hours of business but management can close the doors at anytime they desire.

Look all I want to know is if the management decided to close the door how would a 3- 4 year old get through?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 30, 2019, 02:23:43 PM
My response was to the bit about children wandering., not deadlocking of doors, though I agree it was included in the quote.

I don't think the company would want small children wandering unaccompanied into the Tapas area, on safety grounds.
Well the kids left in the apartments have the possibility of wandering unless they are deadlocked into the rooms.
How would the OC stop the kids coming over to the Tapas area looking for their parents?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 30, 2019, 02:26:07 PM
Well the kids left in the apartments have the possibility of wandering unless they are deadlocked into the rooms.
How would the OC stop the kids coming over to the Tapas area looking for their parents?

That was the responsibility of the parents, not the company. IMO

The company provided child care facilities for those who wished to avail themselves of it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 30, 2019, 02:29:53 PM
That was the responsibility of the parents, not the company. IMO
They took the block booking from the Tapas 9 for several days in a row, knowing that the kids were being left on their own.  I think there is a point where the company has to say "that is enough, we like your business but you need to look after the kids better".
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 30, 2019, 02:31:38 PM
They took the block booking from the Tapas 9 for several days in a row, knowing that the kids were being left on their own.  I think there is a point where the company has to say "that is enough, we like your business but you need to look after the kids better".

Are you suggesting that OC should have taken some firm action, such as refused to serve them, or perhaps ejected them from their facilities ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 30, 2019, 02:35:47 PM
If your kid had been sexually assaulted would you go to the media and have every tabloid on your doorstep?

I am aware of 2 newspapers located in the Algarve.

If you have more, that would be most interesting.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 30, 2019, 02:36:23 PM
I fully understand that but once Kate decides to tell Madeleine where she could find her parents, that only makes sense if Kate thought the door at the secondary reception would remain open while they were dining.

I have seen no evidence that Kate told Madeleine where she could find her parents.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 30, 2019, 02:39:19 PM
Quite often there is a disclaimer:
"Rights of admission are reserved by the management"  There are hours of business but management can close the doors at anytime they desire.

Look all I want to know is if the management decided to close the door how would a 3- 4 year old get through?

Sorry, pure and utter speculation.   &%%6
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 30, 2019, 02:41:16 PM
Well the kids left in the apartments have the possibility of wandering unless they are deadlocked into the rooms.
How would the OC stop the kids coming over to the Tapas area looking for their parents?

The OC would assume, like most sane people, that small children were in the care of an adult.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 30, 2019, 04:04:56 PM
If your kid had been sexually assaulted would you go to the media and have every tabloid on your doorstep?

I would consider it my duty to warn other holiday makers.
All those who didn't practically invited further assaults to occur.  The sickos.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on May 30, 2019, 04:45:11 PM
If your kid had been sexually assaulted would you go to the media and have every tabloid on your doorstep?

I find the notion that the parents of these children neglected to inform the police of the assaults absolutely bizarre.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 30, 2019, 06:10:26 PM
I find the notion that the parents of these children neglected to inform the police of the assaults absolutely bizarre.

Shouldn't that be 'Alleged' assaults, since there is no proof there ever were any.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Carana on May 30, 2019, 06:28:17 PM
I find the notion that the parents of these children neglected to inform the police of the assaults absolutely bizarre.

The first point of contact is the GNR, as we know. Did the GNR pass this on to the PJ? Did the PJ  take over?  Or did the assaults end up in a dusty file? No way of knowing.

The Met seemed to find them credible:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/apr/23/madeleine-mccann-police-nine-assaults-british-girls-algarve
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 30, 2019, 06:41:21 PM
The first point of contact is the GNR, as we know. Did the GNR pass this on to the PJ? Did the PJ  take over?  Or did the assaults end up in a dusty file? No way of knowing.

The Met seemed to find them credible:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/apr/23/madeleine-mccann-police-nine-assaults-british-girls-algarve

There were 3 near misses.

What the hell is a sex assault near miss?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 30, 2019, 06:41:53 PM
The first point of contact is the GNR, as we know. Did the GNR pass this on to the PJ? Did the PJ  take over?  Or did the assaults end up in a dusty file? No way of knowing.

The Met seemed to find them credible:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/apr/23/madeleine-mccann-police-nine-assaults-british-girls-algarve


OG must have thought they'd hit the jackpot when they came across these cases , hence Redwood's "In this new tranche of information we have got one crime which is very clearly in the heart of Praia da Luz in 2005, on a young, white 10-year-old girl. Clearly the fact that we've now got an assault that is in the heart of Praia da Luz, very close to where a previous matter had been reported, means that we are even more interested in this as part of the inquiry."

Unfortunately it turned out to be nothing of the sort.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 30, 2019, 06:49:05 PM
There were 3 near misses.

What the hell is a sex assault near miss?


Indeed.  "There were nine sexual assaults in all, three near misses and six incidents where the intruder was disturbed before anything happened."


Does that mean that 6 weren't even near misses? In fact, not even assaults at all ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 30, 2019, 06:54:45 PM
Do those who doubt the veracity of these reported assaults believe they never occurred?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 30, 2019, 06:57:18 PM
I would consider it my duty to warn other holiday makers.
All those who didn't practically invited further assaults to occur.  The sickos.
Does that logic apply to all victims of sexual assault including children who don’t come forward the minute they’ve been raped or moleseted.  Do you consider those victims sickos too?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 30, 2019, 06:58:00 PM
Shouldn't that be 'Alleged' assaults, since there is no proof there ever were any.
Who do you think invented them?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 30, 2019, 06:58:17 PM
Difficult to be sure from the information provided.

Their significance was hyped up in my opinion.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 30, 2019, 06:58:55 PM
Difficult to be sure from the information provided.

Their significance was hyped up in my opinion.
By whom? 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 30, 2019, 07:07:08 PM

Indeed.  "There were nine sexual assaults in all, three near misses and six incidents where the intruder was disturbed before anything happened."


Does that mean that 6 weren't even near misses? In fact, not even assaults at all ?

Doesn't make much sense really does it.

Like I said, Father Christmas is a more convincing story.
[edited]
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 30, 2019, 07:09:35 PM
Doesn't make much sense really does it.

Like I said, Father Christmas is a more convincing story.
[Edited]
You need to get someone to write you some better jokes, that’s an old one.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 30, 2019, 07:36:38 PM
Do those who doubt the veracity of these reported assaults believe they never occurred?

When an assistant commissioner to the met police  considers most  newspaper reports are nonsense, they should be regarded as such.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 30, 2019, 08:01:48 PM
Are you suggesting that OC should have taken some firm action, such as refused to serve them, or perhaps ejected them from their facilities ?
Yes I do.  In fact there was some evidence that something like this did happen.  There were reports of Silvia Batista claiming to have offered the McCann's or was it Tapas 9 free babysitting on that Thursday.  There were hints in various conversations that the block booking was off that day.   There are reports that the other clients were getting annoyed the Tapas 9 had somehow taken the large table every night which stopped others having a large group dining.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 30, 2019, 08:04:06 PM
I have seen no evidence that Kate told Madeleine where she could find her parents.
That is in Fiona Payne's statement, where she says Kate discussed this with her.  Surely you know that?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 30, 2019, 08:06:00 PM
Sorry, pure and utter speculation.   &%%6
I'm discussing a possible scenario.  If that scenario arose what contingencies were put in place to prevent a disaster happening?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on May 30, 2019, 08:09:21 PM
Yes I do.  In fact there was some evidence that something like this did happen.  There were reports of Silvia Batista claiming to have offered the McCann's or was it Tapas 9 free babysitting on that Thursday.  There were hints in various conversations that the block booking was off that day.   There are reports that the other clients were getting annoyed the Tapas 9 had somehow taken the large table every night which stopped others having a large group dining.

All gossip by the sound of it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 30, 2019, 08:12:49 PM
The OC would assume, like most sane people, that small children were in the care of an adult.

You haven't been following this debate between Jassi and myself have you.  We both accept that at least one of the staff knew the kids (4 families) were being left alone.
So that makes your statement "The OC would assume, like most sane people, that small children were in the care of an adult" totally in error.

The OC is not a person as such, but if it had a policy on this matter please present it.

All gossip by the sound of it.
I'm afraid not for in Wilkins/O'Donnell statements were the hints of annoyance toward the Tapas 9.
All gossip by the sound of it.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 30, 2019, 08:15:37 PM

Indeed.  "There were nine sexual assaults in all, three near misses and six incidents where the intruder was disturbed before anything happened."


Does that mean that 6 weren't even near misses? In fact, not even assaults at all ?
"Intruder" still seems bad enough.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 30, 2019, 08:19:49 PM
When an assistant commissioner to the met police  considers most  newspaper reports are nonsense, they should be regarded as such.
Cite please.  Where does "When an assistant commissioner to the met police  considers most  newspaper reports are nonsense" come from?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 30, 2019, 08:26:26 PM
Cite please.  Where does "When an assistant commissioner to the met police  considers most  newspaper reports are nonsense" come from?

April 2017.

MR: There are odd headlines and odd stories in newspapers on a regular basis and most of those are
nonsense.



http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8138.30
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 30, 2019, 08:30:22 PM
April 2017.

MR: There are odd headlines and odd stories in newspapers on a regular basis and most of those are
nonsense.

The fact that Mark Rowley said "odd" ones tells you (all of us I hope) that it isn't most headlines in general but most of the odd ones only.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 30, 2019, 08:53:13 PM
You haven't been following this debate between Jassi and myself have you.  We both accept that at least one of the staff knew the kids (4 families) were being left alone.
So that makes your statement "The OC would assume, like most sane people, that small children were in the care of an adult" totally in error.

The OC is not a person as such, but if it had a policy on this matter please present it.

If the block had burned down and all the children had perished the companies naking up the Ocean Club wouldn't have been prosecuted unless their maintenance or fire precautions were inadequate. The only people legally responsible for the care and safety of those children were their parents.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 30, 2019, 09:01:52 PM
If the block had burned down and all the children had perished the companies naking up the Ocean Club wouldn't have been prosecuted unless their maintenance or fire precautions were inadequate. The only people legally responsible for the care and safety of those children were their parents.
I'm not a lawyer as such but I'd imagine if it could be proven the OC staff knew the parents were leaving the children in deadlocked buildings so they could dine alone at the OC Tapas Restaurant and that eventuality happened (the block had burned down and all the children had perished) some lawyer would take out a class action against the firm.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 30, 2019, 10:18:18 PM
I'm not a lawyer as such but I'd imagine if it could be proven the OC staff knew the parents were leaving the children in deadlocked buildings so they could dine alone at the OC Tapas Restaurant and that eventuality happened (the block had burned down and all the children had perished) some lawyer would take out a class action against the firm.

I don't think the staff knowing makes the company liable. Even if the sraff reported it, the company could only advise the parents not to do it. They weren't breaking the law as far as I know, all they were doing was being stupid.

I find it ironic actually. The law doesn't make it an offence for parents to leave small children in danger, but it can force parents to allow their young children to be taught subjects in school which the parents believe the children are too young to learn.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 30, 2019, 10:30:12 PM
I don't think the staff knowing makes the company liable. Even if the sraff reported it, the company could only advise the parents not to do it. They weren't breaking the law as far as I know, all they were doing was being stupid.

I find it ironic actually. The law doesn't make it an offence for parents to leave small children in danger, but it can force parents to allow their young children to be taught subjects in school which the parents believe the children are too young to learn.
I had heard it was unlawful to deadlock someone in a building.  If you lock up a building so there was no escape, that could be illegal.
I don't know about the other topic.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on May 30, 2019, 11:25:26 PM
I had heard it was unlawful to deadlock someone in a building.  If you lock up a building so there was no escape, that could be illegal.
I don't know about the other topic.

I've not heard of that, but the OC weren't dead locking anyone in anywhere anyway.

Goodnight Rob; bedtime here now.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 31, 2019, 02:22:56 AM
I've not heard of that, but the OC weren't dead locking anyone in anywhere anyway.

Goodnight Rob; bedtime here now.
Something about a fire code.  I'll see if I can find it.

Wikipedia has the general idea right:
"In the event of a fire, occupants will be prevented from escaping through double-cylinder locked doors unless the correct key is used. ... The risk can be mitigated by locking the deadlock only when there are no occupants inside the building, or leaving the key near the keyhole.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 31, 2019, 02:41:01 AM
One thing that is certain is the when the doors were deadlocked by the parents as they left to go to the Tapas they took the only key with them.

If a door is deadlocked and people are inside they should have ready access to the key.
Whether Portugal followed the fire standards of other countries I'm not sure.

"Fire safety measures that SHOULD be included in your home"  https://www.fire.nsw.gov.au/page.php?id=297

Every house or home unit should have an adequate number of approved (AS3786) working smoke alarms installed that are tested regularly

Make sure keys to all locked doors are readily accessible.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Carana on May 31, 2019, 07:06:56 AM
One thing that is certain is the when the doors were deadlocked by the parents as they left to go to the Tapas they took the only key with them.

If a door is deadlocked and people are inside they should have ready access to the key.
Whether Portugal followed the fire standards of other countries I'm not sure.

"Fire safety measures that SHOULD be included in your home"  https://www.fire.nsw.gov.au/page.php?id=297

Every house or home unit should have an adequate number of approved (AS3786) working smoke alarms installed that are tested regularly

Make sure keys to all locked doors are readily accessible.

Not sure he took his key, if Amaral's right:

There is a report from Control Risks, the first private detective agency which was brought to the case [by the McCanns] in the very first days, where they state, after speaking with Gerald McCann and other witnesses in that group [Tapas 9], that the key that Mr. Gerald McCann alleges to have used had in fact been left in the kitchen, in the kitchen’s counter. Right away, the lies started. (Gonçalo Amaral)

There's a bunch of keys on top of the passports (photo 18) on what looks like a chest-of-drawers, with the caption
"Personal things and valuables in perfect order" https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_PHOTO_REPORT.htm
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_PHOTO_REPORT.htm

GM's arguido statement:
He does not remember if he had taken his mobile phone to the restaurant. He is under the impression that he did not take anything with him, except maybe his wallet.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on May 31, 2019, 07:51:37 AM
The fact that Mark Rowley said "odd" ones tells you (all of us I hope) that it isn't most headlines in general but most of the odd ones only.

I took to mean there were irregular stories and most were nonsense.
He could have course meant the even ones were sound.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 31, 2019, 08:34:35 AM
I took to mean there were irregular stories and most were nonsense.
He could have course meant the even ones were sound.
Odd and even!  Who's counting?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 31, 2019, 07:45:52 PM
One thing that is certain is the when the doors were deadlocked by the parents as they left to go to the Tapas they took the only key with them.

If a door is deadlocked and people are inside they should have ready access to the key.
Whether Portugal followed the fire standards of other countries I'm not sure.

"Fire safety measures that SHOULD be included in your home"  https://www.fire.nsw.gov.au/page.php?id=297

Every house or home unit should have an adequate number of approved (AS3786) working smoke alarms installed that are tested regularly

Make sure keys to all locked doors are readily accessible.


Are you thinking along the lines of -if the children perished in a fire it would be someone elses fault?

 The philpots killed their 6 children(whom they loved) by setting fire to their house- not having fire alarms or smoke detectors didn't make them less guilty of their death!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 31, 2019, 08:20:15 PM

Are you thinking along the lines of -if the children perished in a fire it would be someone elses fault?

 The philpots killed their 6 children(whom they loved) by setting fire to their house- not having fire alarms or smoke detectors didn't make them less guilty of their death!

Do you believe they really loved their children ?
Or are you being facetious?
Not really sure ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 31, 2019, 08:24:12 PM
Do you believe they really loved their children ?
Or are you being facetious?
Not really sure ?

You care what I think? Really?  lol Oh  you want to tell me what I think...tsk

You won't answer my questions I don't answer yours. That is how I operate. ^*&&
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on May 31, 2019, 08:30:14 PM
You care what I think? Really?  lol Oh  you want to tell me what I think...tsk

You won't answer my questions I don't answer yours. That is how I operate. ^*&&

Thank you for your reply to my post
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 04, 2019, 06:59:44 PM
I'm not a lawyer as such but I'd imagine if it could be proven the OC staff knew the parents were leaving the children in deadlocked buildings so they could dine alone at the OC Tapas Restaurant and that eventuality happened (the block had burned down and all the children had perished) some lawyer would take out a class action against the firm.
Yeh, that's not how it works Bob.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 04, 2019, 07:44:17 PM
Yeh, that's not how it works Bob.
As I said I'm not a lawyer, but it is a known fact that OC or MW hired Bell Pottinger the following day.
It appears to me the firms were taking action to prevent it getting worse. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 04, 2019, 07:50:21 PM
As I said I'm not a lawyer, but it is a known fact that OC or MW hired Bell Pottinger the following day.
It appears to me the firms were taking action to prevent it getting worse.
I believe, and I'll have to find the facts, Bell Pottinger were already coincidentally appointed by MW. Could be wrong.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 04, 2019, 09:14:28 PM
I believe, and I'll have to find the facts, Bell Pottinger were already coincidentally appointed by MW. Could be wrong.
Memory for all the details!  I seem to remember that was something separate and in England, not in Portugal as was the McCann incident.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 04, 2019, 09:24:12 PM
Memory for all the details!  I seem to remember that was something separate and in England, not in Portugal as was the McCann incident.
Badabing. Waddayagadadoo?
Michael Frolich, Head of Resonate, subsidiary of international PR company Bell Pottinger was already there by Monday 30 April.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 04, 2019, 09:49:30 PM
Badabing. Waddayagadadoo?
Michael Frolich, Head of Resonate, subsidiary of international PR company Bell Pottinger was already there by Monday 30 April.
And what was he doing there?  Was he still there on the 3rd?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 04, 2019, 09:54:52 PM
And what was he doing there?  Was he still there on the 3rd?
No. A referral was made to their crisis management arm and Alex Woolfall.
All very odd, but just circumstance and coincidence.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 04, 2019, 10:04:01 PM
And what was he doing there?  Was he still there on the 3rd?
This is what I found. https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t13570-the-important-people-who-rushed-out-to-praia-da-luz-after-3-may-2007-and-by-friday-11-may-2007

"Mark Warner brought in Resonate on a generic brief a week before three-year-old Madeleine McCann was kidnapped from its Portuguese resort in Praia da Luz. MD Michael Froh­lich then referred the firm to his parent company’s crisis specialist.

Frohlich and Resonate dir­ector Tricia Moon are helping liaise with the British Consulate in Portugal, the Portuguese Police and the Portuguese and UK media.

They are working with staff at Mark Warner’s Kensington headquarters.

Read more at http://www.prweek.com/article/656479/mark-warner-hires-bell-pottinger#urR4H5cRF6rm6uPU.99"
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: sadie on June 04, 2019, 10:56:44 PM
This is what I found. https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t13570-the-important-people-who-rushed-out-to-praia-da-luz-after-3-may-2007-and-by-friday-11-may-2007

"Mark Warner brought in Resonate on a generic brief a week before three-year-old Madeleine McCann was kidnapped from its Portuguese resort in Praia da Luz. MD Michael Froh­lich then referred the firm to his parent company’s crisis specialist.

Frohlich and Resonate dir­ector Tricia Moon are helping liaise with the British Consulate in Portugal, the Portuguese Police and the Portuguese and UK media.

They are working with staff at Mark Warner’s Kensington headquarters.

Read more at http://www.prweek.com/article/656479/mark-warner-hires-bell-pottinger#urR4H5cRF6rm6uPU.99"

And, of course, two of the three OC owners David Symington and ? Garveigh were away and out of contact, privately sailing the Caribbean, according to reports in the early days.  When did they leave, anyone know?

Could that have been arranged by Bell Pottinger?  Crisis management?  Keep them off the scene


This 'sailing the Caribbean' has been gone over before and information appears to have been wiped from the internet now.

Robin Crosland, also an owner according to the internet [was it in the wonderful newsy 'The Sargents Blog ?'] was left holding the fort
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on June 05, 2019, 07:34:03 AM
And, of course, two of the three OC owners David Symington and ? Garveigh were away and out of contact, privately sailing the Caribbean, according to reports in the early days.  When did they leave, anyone know?

Could that have been arranged by Bell Pottinger?  Crisis management?  Keep them off the scene


This 'sailing the Caribbean' has been gone over before and information appears to have been wiped from the internet now.

Robin Crosland, also an owner according to the internet [was it in the wonderful newsy 'The Sargents Blog ?'] was left holding the fort

The three owners of the Ocean Club had sold it to Mark Warner. Crossland, being younger than the other two, had agreed to wotk for Mark Warner for at least two years in order to ease the transition.

So as David Symington and John Garveigh were no longer involved in the Ocean Club why would there be any need to 'keep them off the scene'?

Crossland wasn't 'holding the fort', he was doing the job he had contracted to do for Mark Warner.

I think anything else is just part of the speculation and rumour which has been rife from the beginning of the case.

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ROBIN_CROSSLAND.htm
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 05, 2019, 09:18:00 AM
The three owners of the Ocean Club had sold it to Mark Warner. Crossland, being younger than the other two, had agreed to wotk for Mark Warner for at least two years in order to ease the transition.

So as David Symington and John Garveigh were no longer involved in the Ocean Club why would there be any need to 'keep them off the scene'?

Crossland wasn't 'holding the fort', he was doing the job he had contracted to do for Mark Warner.

I think anything else is just part of the speculation and rumour which has been rife from the beginning of the case.

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ROBIN_CROSSLAND.htm
These rumours are news to me!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Carana on June 05, 2019, 09:54:12 AM
Badabing. Waddayagadadoo?
Michael Frolich, Head of Resonate, subsidiary of international PR company Bell Pottinger was already there by Monday 30 April.

Cite?

The name means nothing to me.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on June 05, 2019, 10:38:49 AM
These rumours are news to me!

They were to me too.(see Sadie's post)
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10605.msg533346#msg533346

The Portugal Resident seemed unaware that the resort had been sold. They mentioned Symington and Garveigh being out of the country.
https://www.portugalresident.com/2007/05/09/resort-helps-family/
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 05, 2019, 12:49:39 PM
They were to me too.(see Sadie's post)
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10605.msg533346#msg533346

The Portugal Resident seemed unaware that the resort had been sold. They mentioned Symington and Garveigh being out of the country.
https://www.portugalresident.com/2007/05/09/resort-helps-family/
Crisis Management seems to spin around in my head.  Who's got the crisis?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on June 05, 2019, 01:35:08 PM
Crisis Management seems to spin around in my head.  Who's got the crisis?

Alex Woolfall was Bell Pottinger's crisis manager. He was there primarily to protect Mark Warner's reputation. From anything the McCanns might say? Was he helping them or keeping an eye on them?

He now has his own crisis management company;
https://alexwoolfall.com/
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 05, 2019, 09:51:42 PM
Alex Woolfall was Bell Pottinger's crisis manager. He was there primarily to protect Mark Warner's reputation. From anything the McCanns might say? Was he helping them or keeping an eye on them?

He now has his own crisis management company;
https://alexwoolfall.com/
I feel so sceptical about that really.  So the firm that calls in the crisis management team appoint their person as your spokesperson.  There is no independence there. 

That would be like you getting a divorce and your spouse appointing her friend as your solicitor.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on June 06, 2019, 08:37:55 AM
I feel so sceptical about that really.  So the firm that calls in the crisis management team appoint their person as your spokesperson.  There is no independence there. 

That would be like you getting a divorce and your spouse appointing her friend as your solicitor.

He wasn't acting for the McCanns when he told them that the twins could no longer use the creche. Kate was so upset for them;

"Poor Amelie and Sean. They were the ones who would suffer. We’d tried so hard to provide them with stability, to make sure they had other children to play with and lots of activity, and now even this was to be taken away from them" [madeleine Kare McCann]

I can't help but comment on that passage. As I understand it Mark Warner had been allowing the twins to attend the creche ever since Madeleine's disappearance three months earlier. I see nothing in Kate's book suggesting that she and her husband had needed to put any effort into persuading them to do that.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on June 06, 2019, 09:24:09 PM
He wasn't acting for the McCanns when he told them that the twins could no longer use the creche. Kate was so upset for them;

"Poor Amelie and Sean. They were the ones who would suffer. We’d tried so hard to provide them with stability, to make sure they had other children to play with and lots of activity, and now even this was to be taken away from them" [madeleine Kare McCann]

I can't help but comment on that passage. As I understand it Mark Warner had been allowing the twins to attend the creche ever since Madeleine's disappearance three months earlier. I see nothing in Kate's book suggesting that she and her husband had needed to put any effort into persuading them to do that.

Or indeed paying for it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 06, 2019, 09:44:16 PM
Or indeed paying for it.
The question as to who should pay for the accommodation (for quite a few people) and child care could be discussed.  OC was in the process of being sold to MW as I understand, so there was an advantage to solve the issue.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on June 06, 2019, 10:07:45 PM
The question as to who should pay for the accommodation (for quite a few people) and child care could be discussed.  OC was in the process of being sold to MW as I understand, so there was an advantage to solve the issue.

The OC had been sold. The contract had been signed. Mark Warner were the owners. I have to say that I have never heard the McCanns express any gratitude for what Mark Warner did for them; perhaps I missed that?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 06, 2019, 10:10:32 PM
The OC had been sold. The contract had been signed. Mark Warner were the owners. I have to say that I have never heard the McCanns express any gratitude for what Mark Warner did for them; perhaps I missed that?
OK had it progressed that far.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on June 06, 2019, 10:12:30 PM
So some think that The McCanns should have been [dried] denied access to The Creche for the twins.  How utterly pathetic.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on June 06, 2019, 10:18:09 PM
So some think that The McCanns should have been [dried] denied access to The Creche for the twins.  How utterly pathetic.

Thanks, Rob.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 06, 2019, 10:22:16 PM
Thanks, Rob.
I was wondering if that was some local slang as in "hung out to dry" hence "dried".
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on June 06, 2019, 10:35:33 PM
I was wondering if that was some local slang as in "hung out to dry" hence "dried".

No, just predictive text that I failed to spot.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on June 06, 2019, 10:45:26 PM
So some think that The McCanns should have been [dried] denied access to The Creche for the twins.  How utterly pathetic.

I find Kate's honesty hard to understand. For three months Mark Warner allowed her children to use the creche. Fibally they asked her to take them out when it began to upset their customers; because where the McCanns went the media scrum followed. Her initial reaction was to blame those customers, then the media.

It never seemed to enter her head to wonder if she and her husband should share some of the blame. After all, if they hadn't still been using a facility which they had no right to use the media wouldn't have been causing mayhem at the entrance to the Tapas complex.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 06, 2019, 11:23:53 PM
I find Kate's honesty hard to understand. For three months Mark Warner allowed her children to use the creche. Fibally they asked her to take them out when it began to upset their customers; because where the McCanns went the media scrum followed. Her initial reaction was to blame those customers, then the media.

It never seemed to enter her head to wonder if she and her husband should share some of the blame. After all, if they hadn't still been using a facility which they had no right to use the media wouldn't have been causing mayhem at the entrance to the Tapas complex.
You find Kate’s honesty hard to understand??  Well, that’s a new one!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on June 06, 2019, 11:44:43 PM
You find Kate’s honesty hard to understand??  Well, that’s a new one!

I find it hard to understand because she seems unaware what she's revealing about herself.

Mark Warner don't want the twins in the creche? Poor twins, with no activities and no other children to play with! Surely that's their parent's resonsibility, not Mark Warner's?

Custoner's complaining about the media circus impinging on their holiday? How dare they!

A recurring theme, in my opinion. Everything is someone else's fault.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on June 06, 2019, 11:49:12 PM
I find Kate's honesty hard to understand. For three months Mark Warner allowed her children to use the creche. Fibally they asked her to take them out when it began to upset their customers; because where the McCanns went the media scrum followed. Her initial reaction was to blame those customers, then the media.

It never seemed to enter her head to wonder if she and her husband should share some of the blame. After all, if they hadn't still been using a facility which they had no right to use the media wouldn't have been causing mayhem at the entrance to the Tapas complex.

Only you seem to imagine that the twins had no right to use the creche.  Once a system had been worked out to defeat the media scrum upsetting the parents and children ... the twins were welcomed back with open arms.
Snip
As it turned out, Sean and Amelie were able to return before too long. We worked out a system whereby one of the nannies would meet us at the twenty-four-hour reception, away from the other parents and children, and take the twins on to the crčche from there.    Kate McCann
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on June 06, 2019, 11:53:38 PM
I find it hard to understand because she seems unaware what she's revealing about herself.

Mark Warner don't want the twins in the creche? Poor twins, with no activities and no other children to play with! Surely that's their parent's resonsibility, not Mark Warner's?

Custoner's complaining about the media circus impinging on their holiday? How dare they!

A recurring theme, in my opinion. Everything is someone else's fault.

Why are you misrepresenting what Kate wrote and the events as described by her.

In my opinion you are going to extraordinary lengths to unfairly present this woman in the most unfavourable light possible.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 07, 2019, 12:01:50 AM
Why are you misrepresenting what Kate wrote and the events as described by her.

In my opinion you are going to extraordinary lengths to unfairly present this woman in the most unfavourable light possible.
Totally agree. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on June 07, 2019, 12:26:08 AM
Why are you misrepresenting what Kate wrote and the events as described by her.

In my opinion you are going to extraordinary lengths to unfairly present this woman in the most unfavourable light possible.

She needs no help in that from anyone here.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on June 07, 2019, 07:06:47 AM
Only you seem to imagine that the twins had no right to use the creche.  Once a system had been worked out to defeat the media scrum upsetting the parents and children ... the twins were welcomed back with open arms.
Snip
As it turned out, Sean and Amelie were able to return before too long. We worked out a system whereby one of the nannies would meet us at the twenty-four-hour reception, away from the other parents and children, and take the twins on to the crčche from there.    Kate McCann

If you think they had a right to use the creche please identify it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on June 07, 2019, 07:09:46 AM
Why are you misrepresenting what Kate wrote and the events as described by her.

In my opinion you are going to extraordinary lengths to unfairly present this woman in the most unfavourable light possible.

How am I misrepresenting what Kate wrote? How am I misrepresenting the events?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: kizzy on June 07, 2019, 07:35:58 AM
Why are you misrepresenting what Kate wrote and the events as described by her.

In my opinion you are going to extraordinary lengths to unfairly present this woman

in the most unfavourable light possible.

Well, I suppose that is a fair point - if you believe Maddie was abducted.

But what does that make kmcn -  if Maddie wasn't abducted?

She would deserve to be in an unfavorable light - in fact why you insist on protecting her I cannot fathom.

Where I come from your mother is your last line of defense - your protector kmcn wasn't.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on June 07, 2019, 08:04:55 AM
in the most unfavourable light possible.

Well, I suppose that is a fair point - if you believe Maddie was abducted.

But what does that make kmcn -  if Maddie wasn't abducted?

She would deserve to be in an unfavorable light - in fact why you insist on protecting her I cannot fathom.

Where I come from your mother is your last line of defense - your protector kmcn wasn't.

In my opinion Kate McCann is the one who shows herself in an infavourable light. All I did was point it out.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 07, 2019, 08:17:13 AM
She needs no help in that from anyone here.
And yet she still gets it from you, why?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on June 07, 2019, 08:28:28 AM
In my opinion Kate McCann is the one who shows herself in an infavourable light. All I did was point it out.


I don't share your very low opinion of Kate McCann.
Obviously you do have that opinion which is shared by some/many  sceptics.
I do wonder what this criticism  which has gone on for twelve years  is achieving?
Or is finding fault with Madeleine's mother just part of the debate on Madeleine's disappearance
Do these criticisms of her behaviour after Madeleine's disappearance have any relevance?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on June 07, 2019, 10:09:16 AM

I don't share your very low opinion of Kate McCann.
Obviously you do have that opinion which is shared by some/many  sceptics.
I do wonder what this criticism  which has gone on for twelve years  is achieving?
Or is finding fault with Madeleine's mother just part of the debate on Madeleine's disappearance
Do these criticisms of her behaviour after Madeleine's disappearance have any relevance?

Her behaviour is relevant because knowing how she thinks and reacts is relevant imo.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on June 07, 2019, 10:53:01 AM
Her behaviour is relevant because knowing how she thinks and reacts is relevant imo.

To whom?
Does her behaviour in minor details have any relevance to Madeleine's disappearance and/ or the current investigations?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on June 07, 2019, 12:04:51 PM
If you think they had a right to use the creche please identify it.

The MARK WARNER management team are the only ones with the authority to authorise who may and who may not use the creche facilities.               
The fact that appropriate arrangements were made to accommodate the twins would seem to indicate that they dealt with the twins needs and well-being with the common humanity your posts on the matter seem to suggest you advocate should have been denied them.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on June 07, 2019, 12:11:31 PM
To whom?
Does her behaviour in minor details have any relevance to Madeleine's disappearance and/ or the current investigations?

Her attitude to child rearing wasn't a minor detail in my opinion. I think her reliance on routine contributed to her decision to leave her children home alone.



Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on June 07, 2019, 12:31:48 PM
The MARK WARNER management team are the only ones with the authority to authorise who may and who may not use the creche facilities.               
The fact that appropriate arrangements were made to accommodate the twins would seem to indicate that they dealt with the twins needs and well-being with the common humanity your posts on the matter seem to suggest you advocate should have been denied them.

So it's not just me who thinks they didn't have a right to use the creche then?  They were allowed to use it because Mark Warner were kind enough to allow it.

I haven't said they should have been denied access. I think it was very kind of Mark Warner to continue to allow them access to the facility for three months after Madeleine's disappearance. I also think they had every right to bring it to an end if the media scrum was causing problems for their customers.

It was Kate McCann's reaction to the situation that developed that I found interesting. . 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on June 07, 2019, 12:39:31 PM
Her attitude to child rearing wasn't a minor detail in my opinion. I think her reliance on routine contributed to her decision to leave her children home alone.

She made her fateful decision twelve years ago and has had no option but to live with the consequences every single day of her life since then.
Why do you think you feel the need to post pejoratively about her and about an event that no-one can alter for every day of your life.

Kate has no choices in this ... I'm lost as to why you appear to have none either in what you have chosen to do.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on June 07, 2019, 12:46:13 PM
So it's not just me who thinks they didn't have a right to use the creche then?  They were allowed to use it because Mark Warner were kind enough to allow it.

I haven't said they should have been denied access. I think it was very kind of Mark Warner to continue to allow them access to the facility for three months after Madeleine's disappearance. I also think they had every right to bring it to an end if the media scrum was causing problems for their customers.

It was Kate McCann's reaction to the situation that developed that I found interesting. .

What a mountain you are making out of a molehill over this trivia.  What I find interesting is the attitude your post displays towards the totally innocent children.  In my opinion it reveals so much  😢😪
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on June 07, 2019, 12:49:39 PM
She made her fateful decision twelve years ago and has had no option but to live with the consequences every single day of her life since then.
Why do you think you feel the need to post pejoratively about her and about an event that no-one can alter for every day of your life.

Kate has no choices in this ... I'm lost as to why you appear to have none either in what you have chosen to do.

Kate has choices that would improve the chances of finding out what happened to Madeleine.  Whether she has taken such chances is something that I, for one, do not know.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 07, 2019, 12:51:56 PM
She made her fateful decision twelve years ago and has had no option but to live with the consequences every single day of her life since then.
Why do you think you feel the need to post pejoratively about her and about an event that no-one can alter for every day of your life.

Kate has no choices in this ... I'm lost as to why you appear to have none either in what you have chosen to do.
That's all great - from someone who believes the abduction narrative. You must factor that in to your thinking when considering why you are 'lost' as to why someone else with a differing opinion of events would have a different opinion  / perception of the choices made at the time.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 07, 2019, 12:56:03 PM
What a mountain you are making out of a molehill over this trivia.  What I find interesting is the attitude your post displays towards the totally innocent children.  In my opinion it reveals so much  😢😪
What does it reveal, oh great arbiter of morality?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on June 07, 2019, 01:16:13 PM
Her attitude to child rearing wasn't a minor detail in my opinion. I think her reliance on routine contributed to her decision to leave her children home alone.

Have you analysed the behaviour of all the mothers of missing, abducted, murdered children.
It might be an interesting exercise if it shows the same traits of  child rearing which Kate McCann demonstrated?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on June 07, 2019, 01:36:07 PM
What a mountain you are making out of a molehill over this trivia.  What I find interesting is the attitude your post displays towards the totally innocent children.  In my opinion it reveals so much  😢😪

I gave my opinion which you disagree with. I don't have a problem with that,  I just wish you would concentrate on giving your reasons for disagreeing rather than launching a personal attack on me.

You suggested they had a right to use the Toddler Club and that I had misrepresented what Kate wrote and her accoubt of the events. You have, however, offered no evidence to support either of those statements.

Most of your energies in my opinion have been focused on giving your opinion of me. 


Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on June 07, 2019, 01:44:42 PM
Have you analysed the behaviour of all the mothers of missing, abducted, murdered children.
It might be an interesting exercise if it shows the same traits of  child rearing which Kate McCann demonstrated?

As Laura Richards pointed out in the podcast she took part in, sometimes looking at other cases doesn't provide answers, because there's always the possibilty that you are seeing something new and unique.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 07, 2019, 01:48:34 PM
Kate has choices that would improve the chances of finding out what happened to Madeleine.  Whether she has taken such chances is something that I, for one, do not know.

What proof do you have that Kate has ignored any choices relating to finding Maddie.. Or are you just passing off your opinion as fact
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on June 07, 2019, 02:00:35 PM
What proof do you have that Kate has ignored any choices relating to finding Maddie.. Or are you just passing off your opinion as fact

Kindly reread my second sentence.

Why are you asking me something that I have already answered?   *%87
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on June 07, 2019, 02:17:37 PM
As Laura Richards pointed out in the podcast she took part in, sometimes looking at other cases doesn't provide answers, because there's always the possibilty that you are seeing something new and unique.

And what would be new and unique about the child rearing of Kate McCann compared to the child rearing of those other parents of.missing,  abducted or murdered children?
Because Laura Richards doesn't believe it wouldn't provide answers does not mean that the possibility of similar traits in child rearing should not be looked at.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on June 07, 2019, 02:41:42 PM
And what would be new and unique about the child rearing of Kate McCann compared to the child rearing of those other parents of.missing,  abducted or murdered children?
Because Laura Richards doesn't believe it wouldn't provide answers does not mean that the possibility of similar traits in child rearing should not be looked at.

Well I'm not interested in it, but if you want to compare and contrast her with other mothers feel free.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on June 07, 2019, 02:50:16 PM
Well I'm not interested in it, but if you want to compare and contrast her with other mothers feel free.


No I'm not interested either!
I thought you might be because of your earlier post about Kate.

Watching the tennis now.
Shame Konta didn't win.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 07, 2019, 03:56:03 PM
Kindly reread my second sentence.

Why are you asking me something that I have already answered?   *%87

What has made you come up with such a stupid suggestion... Why would Kate refuse a geniune opportunity
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on June 07, 2019, 04:15:20 PM
What has made you come up with such a stupid suggestion... Why would Kate refuse a geniune opportunity

My second sentence makes things clear.

I take it 'stupid' is your word of the day?   *%87
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 07, 2019, 04:19:30 PM
My second sentence makes things clear.

I take it 'stupid' is your word of the day?   *%87
Yes it's, stupid to suggest Kate, would do such a, thing
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 07, 2019, 04:42:19 PM
What proof do you have that Kate has ignored any choices relating to finding Maddie.. Or are you just passing off your opinion as fact
The one time when we do know she had a choice was whether to answer the questions during the arguido interview.  She chose not to answer or to answer with  words equivalent to "no comment".  That was her choice, and even the PJ doing the interview reminded her that she could be hindering the investigation.  That was a well documented situation.

Other times when she may have had a choice it isn't as clear as to what choices she had to chose from.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on June 07, 2019, 04:52:56 PM
Kate has choices that would improve the chances of finding out what happened to Madeleine.  Whether she has taken such chances is something that I, for one, do not know.

Actually that is something which I do know ... as does everyone else who is aware of the efforts Madeleine's parents have made to get her case properly investigated.

That those efforts were successful is confirmed by the active police investigations being conducted by Scotland Yard and the Judicial Police.

That the cost to them of their eventually successful campaigning was the years of opprobrium continued to this day directed at them from some ... raises no issues about them ... but it certainly does raise many about their tormentors ... IMO 😁
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on June 07, 2019, 04:58:51 PM
That's all great - from someone who believes the abduction narrative. You must factor that in to your thinking when considering why you are 'lost' as to why someone else with a differing opinion of events would have a different opinion  / perception of the choices made at the time.

The Policia Judiciaria don't dismiss that Madeleine was abducted ... Scotland Yard don't dismiss Madeleine's abductor ... as can be determined that both are looking for at least one.

Why is it that sceptics profess to 'know' better than the professionals who have all the information to hand ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on June 07, 2019, 05:00:16 PM
Actually that is something which I do know ... as does everyone else who is aware of the efforts Madeleine's parents have made to get her case properly investigated.

That those efforts were successful is confirmed by the active police investigations being conducted by Scotland Yard and the Judicial Police.

That the cost to them of their eventually successful campaigning was the years of opprobrium continued to this day directed at them from some ... raises no issues about them ... but it certainly does raise many about their tormentors ... IMO 😁

Almost unbelievable really.  How can two parents with no evidence against them attract such nastiness?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 07, 2019, 05:02:22 PM
The one time when we do know she had a choice was whether to answer the questions during the arguido interview.  She chose not to answer or to answer with  words equivalent to "no comment".  That was her choice, and even the PJ doing the interview reminded her that she could be hindering the investigation.  That was a well documented situation.

Other times when she may have had a choice it isn't as clear as to what choices she had to chose from.

It isn't a fact that those questions could have helped the investigation it's opinion.... So the statement should be qualified as such... I'm sure Kate didn't think those questions could help the investigation
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on June 07, 2019, 05:04:37 PM
What does it reveal, oh great arbiter of morality?

I like that ... and I like it even better that at least another four sceptics sceptics do too ... it is a message to me that I am on the right track ... and at least five sceptics know it.

You raised "morals" ... can't you see ... that is not a put down ...for me.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 07, 2019, 05:07:41 PM
The Policia Judiciaria don't dismiss that Madeleine was abducted ... Scotland Yard don't dismiss Madeleine's abductor ... as can be determined that both are looking for at least one.

Why is it that sceptics profess to 'know' better than the professionals who have all the information to hand ?
I have no idea, because I never said that.
But if you flip that on its head - and you appear to be so dogmatic that you literally can't do that - then you can apply your 'profess to know better than the professionals' to believers - because why is it that 'believers' seem to 'know' that there was an abduction, yet neither police force 'know' anything?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on June 07, 2019, 05:09:33 PM
I gave my opinion which you disagree with. I don't have a problem with that,  I just wish you would concentrate on giving your reasons for disagreeing rather than launching a personal arrack on me.

You suggested they had a right to use the Toddler Club and that I had misrepresented what Kate wrote and her accoubt of the events. You have, however, offered no evidence to support either of those statements.

Most of your energies in my opinion have been focused on giving your opinion of me.

Read the quote you used from Kate's book ... then read on further through the continuation of that quote which I used in reply.  Context is everything ... IMO 😊
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on June 07, 2019, 05:10:02 PM
Almost unbelievable really.  How can two parents with no evidence against them attract such nastiness?

Presumably because these people don't believe the McCanns' story  and public criticism  is their  way of demonstrating it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on June 07, 2019, 05:11:51 PM
I like that ... and I like it even better that at least another four sceptics sceptics do too ... it is a message to me that I am on the right track ... and at least five sceptics know it.

You raised "morals" ... can't you see ... that is not a put down ...for me.

Oh dear, so now the labels get hurled around again.

'Stupid'.

'Sceptics'.

It's hardly informative debate about the disappearance of Madeleine, is it?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 07, 2019, 05:12:17 PM
I have no idea, because I never said that.
But if you flip that on its head - and you appear to be so dogmatic that you literally can't do that - then you can apply your 'profess to know better than the professionals' to believers - because why is it that 'believers' seem to 'know' that there was an abduction, yet neither police force 'know' anything?

It's not a matter of knowing there, was, an abduction but knowing it was the most likely possibility..

Why do sceptics such as yourself not have a problem with amaral saying Maddie died in the apartment and he can prove it... When he obviously  cant
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 07, 2019, 05:13:32 PM
Oh dear, so now the labels get hurled around again.

'Stupid'.

'Sceptics'.

It's hardly informative debate about the disappearance of Madeleine, is it?

Mods set the tone.... It's them you need to blame
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 07, 2019, 05:14:54 PM
It's not a matter of knowing there, was, an abduction but knowing it was the most likely possibility..

Why do sceptics such as yourself not have a problem with amaral saying Maddie died in the apartment and he can prove it... When he obviously  cant
...and there it is again. 'Most likely'? By who's calculation? How are you deriving that result?
Bearing in mid that there is actually no trace of an abduction, but there's traces of something else happening.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 07, 2019, 05:16:17 PM
Mods set the tone.... It's them you need to blame
To be fair mate, you've been bandying that label around with abandon the last 24 hours.
It's OK to call me stupid though, I am.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on June 07, 2019, 05:18:35 PM
The one time when we do know she had a choice was whether to answer the questions during the arguido interview.  She chose not to answer or to answer with  words equivalent to "no comment".  That was her choice, and even the PJ doing the interview reminded her that she could be hindering the investigation.  That was a well documented situation.

Other times when she may have had a choice it isn't as clear as to what choices she had to chose from.

The arguido interview had nothing at all to do with finding Madeleine.  The arguido interview was to get something to enable the police to lay charges against her.  Anyone who would defy legal advice to answer under those circumstances is plain stupid ... Gerry was lucky to get away with it ... but I have always been of the opinion that they weren't interested in Gerry anyway ... Kate was the target.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 07, 2019, 05:21:20 PM
To be fair mate, you've been bandying that label around with abandon the last 24 hours.
It's OK to call me stupid though, I am.

no i havent...cite...only joking...Rob used it towards me today...its good when the mods show what is and isnt acceptable ...my word of the day is "crackpot"...but I havent had chance to use it yet
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 07, 2019, 05:26:53 PM
The arguido interview had nothing at all to do with finding Madeleine.  The arguido interview was to get something to enable the police to lay charges against her.  Anyone who would defy legal advice to answer under those circumstances is plain stupid ... Gerry was lucky to get away with it ... but I have always been of the opinion that they weren't interested in Gerry anyway ... Kate was the target.
I can sort of agree with your last comment. They zeroed in on her. But why? Let's remember, at this point it is in everyone's interest to find Maddie alive and well. It would be the result of the century for everyone. There is no motive at this point of proceedings for PJ to embark on some sort of vendetta - it's a missing little girl.
Inept / incompetent / buffoons or not, they clearly weren't buying what she was selling. And when she refused to answers questions, her lawyer placed the tin hat on that perception.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on June 07, 2019, 05:32:14 PM
Oh dear, so now the labels get hurled around again.

'Stupid'.

'Sceptics'.

It's hardly informative debate about the disappearance of Madeleine, is it?

"Sceptic" and "Supporter" are the sobriquets which were agreed upon by members.  Please feel free to open the debate once more to introduce something more to your taste.

Nice deflection by the way ... have you nothing to say about "Great arbiter of morality" (I really like that ... I always wanted to be made a Dame ... but until that happens I'm quite content to be a Great ... has a certain ring to it)
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 07, 2019, 05:37:12 PM
"Sceptic" and "Supporter" are the sobriquets which were agreed upon by members.  Please feel free to open the debate once more to introduce something more to your taste.

Nice deflection by the way ... have you nothing to say about "Great arbiter of morality" (I really like that ... I always wanted to be made a Dame ... but until that happens I'm quite content to be a Great ... has a certain ring to it)
You're welcome.
I've often been referred to as a great big t**
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on June 07, 2019, 05:43:24 PM
It isn't a fact that those questions could have helped the investigation it's opinion.... So the statement should be qualified as such... I'm sure Kate didn't think those questions could help the investigation

It can't be said by not answering it progressed the case to a conclusion.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on June 07, 2019, 05:51:29 PM
"Sceptic" and "Supporter" are the sobriquets which were agreed upon by members.  Please feel free to open the debate once more to introduce something more to your taste.

Nice deflection by the way ... have you nothing to say about "Great arbiter of morality" (I really like that ... I always wanted to be made a Dame ... but until that happens I'm quite content to be a Great ... has a certain ring to it)

Perhaps you have allusions to grandeur.

I don't see how anything you have said today progresses Madeleine's case by one iota.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 07, 2019, 05:53:44 PM
It can't be said by not answering it progressed the case to a conclusion.

And it's mere opinion to suggest that her answers could have helped progress the case
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 07, 2019, 05:54:41 PM
Perhaps you have allusions to grandeur.

I don't see how anything you have said today progresses Madeleine's case by one iota.
Imo neither you nor anyone else on this forum has ever written anything that progresses Madeleine’ case one iota in however many years this forum has been in existence , and anyone believing they have is imo clearly suffering from “allusions to grandeur “ (sic).
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on June 07, 2019, 05:58:41 PM
Imo neither you nor anyone else on this forum has ever written anything that progresses Madeleine’ case one iota in however many years this forum has been in existence , and anyone believing they have is imo clearly suffering from “allusions to grandeur “ (sic).

Look it up.

It's standard English.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 07, 2019, 06:03:57 PM
Look it up.

It's standard English.
I have.  It isn’t.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 07, 2019, 06:11:04 PM
Look it up.

It's standard English.

Its delusions of grandeur.... Not allusions.. You are of course quite mistaken
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 07, 2019, 06:11:45 PM
And it's mere opinion to suggest that her answers could have helped progress the case
But they almost certainly didn't help, which is the point.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on June 07, 2019, 06:12:00 PM
I have.  It isn’t.

Oh yes it is.

By the way, if you believe not one iota of progress has been made since the very first time you joined this forum, why are you still here?

Member of Team McCann?  Bored out of your wits?  What's your MO?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on June 07, 2019, 06:14:52 PM
Its delusions of grandeur.... Not allusions.. You are of course quite mistaken

If you can't understand the difference between delusions and allusions ...   &%%6
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on June 07, 2019, 06:20:09 PM
Read the quote you used from Kate's book ... then read on further through the continuation of that quote which I used in reply.  Context is everything ... IMO 😊

Why is it relevant?
'
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on June 07, 2019, 06:24:28 PM
Perhaps you have allusions to grandeur.

I don't see how anything you have said today progresses Madeleine's case by one iota.

It isn't my job to interfere in Madeleine's case ... the expert professionals of Scotland Yard and the Policia Judiciaria are dealing with all that on Madeleine's behalf.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 07, 2019, 06:34:33 PM
If you can't understand the difference between delusions and allusions ...   &%%6

You've made a fool of yourself
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on June 07, 2019, 06:39:19 PM
It isn't my job to interfere in Madeleine's case ... the expert professionals of Scotland Yard and the Policia Judiciaria are dealing with all that on Madeleine's behalf.

Then my same question goes to you.

It seems pretty pointless being on here unless you have some clue as to how the case might be moved forward.

So what's your MO?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 07, 2019, 06:39:30 PM
Oh yes it is.

By the way, if you believe not one iota of progress has been made since the very first time you joined this forum, why are you still here?

Member of Team McCann?  Bored out of your wits?  What's your MO?
There is no such phrase as “allusions to grandeur”..  You are simply wrong though I know you will refuse to accept it.  I am not hear because I think I will progress the case, I really am not that arrogant.  I just enjoy the craic.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 07, 2019, 06:41:14 PM
Then my same question goes to you.

It seems pretty pointless being on here unless you have some clue as to how the case might be moved forward.

So what's your MO?

So your role here is to try and help move the case forward... That's s delusion of grandeur IMO... Or Dunning Kruger.. If you prefer
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 07, 2019, 06:42:34 PM
There is no such phrase as “allusions to grandeur”..  You are simply wrong though I know you will refuse to accept it.  I am not hear because I think I will progress the case, I really am not that arrogant.  I just enjoy the craic.
'...oh, hello, yes, can you leave a message for kettle? Tell him he's black'.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on June 07, 2019, 06:47:19 PM
There is no such phrase as “allusions to grandeur”..  You are simply wrong though I know you will refuse to accept it.  I am not hear because I think I will progress the case, I really am not that arrogant.  I just enjoy the craic.

Exactly.

If you can spell the difference between here and hear, we would be be one step forward.

Enjoy the craic.

I don't give a toss about that.

My interest is in what happened to Madeleine.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 07, 2019, 06:50:12 PM
Exactly.

If you can spell the difference between here and hear, we would be be one step forward.

Enjoy the craic.

I don't give a toss about that.

My interest is in what happened to Madeleine.

I think you mean if you can "tell " the difference... Not spell


I can't see how you have moved the case one micron forward
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 07, 2019, 06:51:19 PM
'...oh, hello, yes, can you leave a message for kettle? Tell him he's black'.
autocorrect.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 07, 2019, 06:52:32 PM
'...oh, hello, yes, can you leave a message for kettle? Tell him he's black'.

Nice use of the elipsis....
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 07, 2019, 06:53:47 PM
Exactly.

If you can spell the difference between here and hear, we would be be one step forward.

Enjoy the craic.

I don't give a toss about that.

My interest is in what happened to Madeleine.
We’re all interested in what happened to Madeleine, it’s just that some of us know our limitations and some of us clearly don’t.  In what way do you think your contributions to this forum and your highly esteemed blog have progressed thr case?  Do tell, I’m all hears.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 07, 2019, 06:56:54 PM
autocorrect.
Just bustin' your balls, despite you not actually having any.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 07, 2019, 06:57:47 PM
Nice use of the elipsis....
This forum has given me so much!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 07, 2019, 06:57:57 PM
Just bustin' your balls, despite you not actually having any.
Och, you naughty wee scamp.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 07, 2019, 06:59:33 PM
Just bustin' your balls, despite you not actually having any.

Stop flirting
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 07, 2019, 06:59:40 PM
We’re all interested in what happened to Madeleine, it’s just that some of us know our limitations and some of us clearly don’t.  In what way do you think your contributions to this forum and your highly esteemed blog have progressed thr case?  Do tell, I’m all hears.
You are lit tonight.
Subtle sarcasm coupled with a nice, self-deprecating play on words.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 07, 2019, 07:04:04 PM
You are lit tonight.
Subtle sarcasm coupled with a nice, self-deprecating play on words.
I think some are getting their worms mixed up rather than playing on them
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 07, 2019, 07:09:33 PM
You are lit tonight.
Subtle sarcasm coupled with a nice, self-deprecating play on words.
At last!  A sceptic who gets me and who I can do bizniz with.   8**8:/:
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on June 07, 2019, 07:10:55 PM
We’re all interested in what happened to Madeleine, it’s just that some of us know our limitations and some of us clearly don’t.  In what way do you think your contributions to this forum and your highly esteemed blog have progressed thr case?  Do tell, I’m all hears.

The question remains, you think you have contributed nothing to the case since you joined.

You are only here for the craic.

That defines enough said.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on June 07, 2019, 08:04:57 PM
Despite what you say, you’re too clever to really believe Madeleine was abducted, IMO.
I don’t know about you being honest, but I do know you’re a barrel of laughs, IMO @)(++(*


I'm fairly clever. @)(++(*
Perhaps not always a bundle of laughs. 8(8-))
Nearly always honest. ^*&&
I do believe Madeleine was abducted!
There are still a few who do.
Including as far as can be ascertained both investigating police forces. 8((()*/
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on June 07, 2019, 08:07:53 PM

I'm fairly clever. @)(++(*
Perhaps not always a bundle of laughs. 8(8-))
Nearly always honest. ^*&&
I do believe Madeleine was abducted!
There are still a few who do.
Including as far as can be ascertained both investigating police forces. 8((()*/


Aye, and look how far that's got them.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on June 07, 2019, 08:10:47 PM

Aye, and look how far that's got them.

And you are privy to how both investigations are proceeding?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on June 07, 2019, 08:12:32 PM
And you are privy to how both investigations are proceeding?

Enough to know they are no where near the finish line, else they wouldn't have got funding for another whole year.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 07, 2019, 08:19:58 PM
Despite what you say, you’re too clever to really believe Madeleine was abducted, IMO.
I don’t know about you being honest, but I do know you’re a barrel of laughs, IMO @)(++(*
Thank you, but it’s because I’m clever that I realise abduction is the only plausible logical theory.   8(>((
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on June 07, 2019, 08:21:05 PM
Enough to know they are no where near the finish line, else they wouldn't have got funding for another whole year.

I agree.
But they have been awarded funding for another whole year.
I wonder why!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on June 07, 2019, 08:26:49 PM
I agree.
But they have been awarded funding for another whole year.
I wonder why!

Because somebody in authority wants it to go on for ever.
SY will oblige by spending any money that comes their way, irrespective of progress, or lack of it.

All IMO, of course.

As an aside, I wonder if the 4 staff are permanent or whether officers are rotated in and out for a rest between dealing with current crimes.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 07, 2019, 08:29:57 PM
Because somebody in authority wants it to go on for ever.
SY will oblige by spending any money that comes their way, irrespective of progress, or lack of it.

All IMO, of course.

someone in authority wants it to go on forever...what a balmy idea...meanwhile back in the real world...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on June 07, 2019, 08:30:00 PM
Because somebody in authority wants it to go on for ever.
SY will oblige by spending any money that comes their way, irrespective of progress, or lack of it.

All IMO, of course.

Who is this person in authority who wants it to go on forever?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 07, 2019, 08:31:16 PM
Who is this person in authority who wants it to go on forever?

the Illuminations
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on June 07, 2019, 08:33:00 PM
Who is this person in authority who wants it to go on forever?

Its a secret  8(0(*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on June 07, 2019, 08:38:45 PM
Us thicko’s, dunder heeds as they’re known in Glasgow (sceptics) will just have to console ourselves with the fact that Jimmy isn’t in the dock yet for abduction, eh? That’s more facts for you. And he never will be, or he’d have been there before now. IMO of course.

Keep your chin up Jassi, patience!

Patience for what?
It's dunderheids!
Even I knew that and I'm not a Glaswegian.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on June 07, 2019, 08:44:08 PM
Its a secret  8(0(*

So in other words it's a load of mince.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on June 07, 2019, 08:45:51 PM
So in other words it's a load of mince.

Wait and see  8)--))

Spring 2020   OG has been granted funding for a year to follow leads.

2021  Ditto

2022  Ditto

Etc, etc etc
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on June 07, 2019, 08:48:12 PM

I'm fairly clever. @)(++(*
Perhaps not always a bundle of laughs. 8(8-))
Nearly always honest. ^*&&
I do believe Madeleine was abducted!
There are still a few who do.
Including as far as can be ascertained both investigating police forces. 8((()*/

When did the PJ change their minds,according to Do Carmo in 2017  they didn't know what happened and are prepared for different scenarios.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on June 07, 2019, 08:49:30 PM
Enough to know they are no where near the finish line, else they wouldn't have got funding for another whole year.

In no hurry obviously and know theres no quick fix.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on June 07, 2019, 08:51:04 PM
In no hurry obviously and know theres no quick fix.


Dead right - dead being the operative word in this case .
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 07, 2019, 08:54:57 PM
That was obvious from what you post. Glaswegians of the East End variety are more schooled up on how the criminal mind works, believe me. You’ll never see no abductor in any courtroom for Madeleine’s abduction. I’ll happily wager Ł100 to a charity of Brietta’s choice if I’m wrong.

What do you say to that? She can even pick ambassador Kate’s charity if she likes?

never correct a fool for he will hate you....correct a wise man ...and he will thank you
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on June 07, 2019, 08:55:01 PM
That was obvious from what you post. Glaswegians of the East End variety are more schooled up on how the criminal mind works, believe me. You’ll never see no abductor in any courtroom for Madeleine’s abduction. I’ll happily wager Ł100 to a charity of Brietta’s choice if I’m wrong.

What do you say to that? She can even pick ambassador Kate’s charity if she likes?

Is she still involved? We don't seem to hear of her doing much ambassadoring  in the news.

You'd think friend Tracey would be only too eager to report it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 07, 2019, 08:57:48 PM
That was obvious from what you post. Glaswegians of the East End variety are more schooled up on how the criminal mind works, believe me. You’ll never see no abductor in any courtroom for Madeleine’s abduction. I’ll happily wager Ł100 to a charity of Brietta’s choice if I’m wrong.

What do you say to that? She can even pick ambassador Kate’s charity if she likes?

im just trying to work out what....youll never see no abductor...means...its deffo a double negative
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on June 07, 2019, 08:58:52 PM
That was obvious from what you post. Glaswegians of the East End variety are more schooled up on how the criminal mind works, believe me. You’ll never see no abductor in any courtroom for Madeleine’s abduction. I’ll happily wager Ł100 to a charity of Brietta’s choice if I’m wrong.

What do you say to that? She can even pick ambassador Kate’s charity if she likes?

What makes Glaswegians of the East End variety more schooled up on how the criminal mind works?
The thought of placing a bet on any aspect of Madeleine's disappearance does give me the boak!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on June 07, 2019, 09:03:10 PM
im just trying to work out what....youll never see no abductor...means...its deffo a double negative

It's an East end of Glasgow way of expressing a definite belief in what they are saying!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 07, 2019, 09:05:23 PM
It's an East end of Glasgow way of expressing a definite belief in what they are saying!

really...I think monkeys buttoned up the back
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on June 07, 2019, 09:06:44 PM
Wait and see  8)--))

Spring 2020   OG has been granted funding for a year to follow leads.

2021  Ditto

2022  Ditto

Etc, etc etc

Is this "the person in authority" who is still in charge of continuing the investigation until 2022 and ditto ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on June 07, 2019, 09:22:14 PM
 8@??)(
the Illuminations

Nice one  8@??)(  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 07, 2019, 09:35:02 PM
Look, are you accepting the wager or not? If I win, my charity will be the dogs trust.

It’s an open offer that you (or any supporter) can take at anytime.

Good night?

I accept...but id like to up the ante...how confident are you...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 07, 2019, 10:06:53 PM
Your more than welcome, I meant it. You’re way too clever to believe that Gerry forgot him and his wife entered via an unsecured  patio door that he told police his buddy had entered in between, IMO (at the moment). If you really are clever, think about it, or continue to live in fantasy land. The choice is yours.

This case isn’t really that difficult, if you ever decide to engage your brain..
My brain is fully engaged thanks.  You will simply have to come to terms with the fact that not everybody lends such massive significance to certain of the minutiae of this case that you do.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on June 07, 2019, 11:26:02 PM
I’m confident enough, and successful enough to let you make an alternative offer. It would be good to see some charity benefit if the case is ever conclude whoever  is correct.


I’m not going to agree to a wager I’m not willing to meet but I,ve been successful enough to be open to offers? Bear in mind, if I accept I’ll pay up and I expect nothing less from you if you take the wager on. That’s the way wagers work. I,ll post the money to John now for him to hold, giving John control. On that basis, name your price and I’ll tell you if I can accept? But I would encourage you to think big.

You can make it a whole lot MORE than Ł100 if you like?

That will make us the only two people willing to put our money where our mouths is.

I’ll even pay now, if John can facilitate it and wait to see how the investigation pans out. If it closes without conclusion, I get my dosh back. If it concludes with the conviction of an abductor, I lose. Kate and Gerry get convicted - you lose.

Back to you????
.

Without resorting to any profanity which I am seriously inclined to do so!
This must be the lowest of the low in any of the threads here or in any discussion of the disappearance of Madeleine.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 07, 2019, 11:27:39 PM
Without resorting to any profanity which I am seriously inclined to do so!
This must be the lowest of the low in any of the threads here or in any discussion of the disappearance of Madeleine.
I agree.  Tasteless in the extreme. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 07, 2019, 11:42:30 PM
So you aren’t willing to put your money on an abduction for the benefit of charity. That leads me to believe you’re clever enough to know you’ll lose.

But you two are immaterial, it’s Davel who accepted and it remains for him to name his price. It’s for charity remember.

Charity begins at the McCanns home in this instance.
If you want to give to charity, give to charity, don’t predicate it on gambling on the outcome of the disappearance of a little girl, that’s just sick.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on June 08, 2019, 08:15:23 AM
Wait and see  8)--))

Spring 2020   OG has been granted funding for a year to follow leads.

2021  Ditto

2022  Ditto

Etc, etc etc

Won't go past 2022 will it? isn't there a statute of limitations in Portugal,seeing as its their case.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 08, 2019, 08:23:19 AM
I do give to charity but I am also willing to pay money up front to John so as if I lose charity wins. We are all debating the same thing and the fact I would like to see charity benefit as an outcome is not sick in any charity’s book IMO. The point is, Davel sickly claimed to have accepted but I am waiting on his reply.

I like you, but your input is immaterial in this instance. X

Unless you fancy a wager that is??

I'm only challenging  monkey to expose his rather garbled logic... If I  was to take this bet.   .monkey pays out if an abductor appears in court... When do I pay out
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 08, 2019, 08:26:11 AM
I do give to charity but I am also willing to pay money up front to John so as if I lose charity wins. We are all debating the same thing and the fact I would like to see charity benefit as an outcome is not sick in any charity’s book IMO. The point is, Davel sickly claimed to have accepted but I am waiting on his reply.

I like you, but your input is immaterial in this instance. X

Unless you fancy a wager that is??
You have an advantage in the wager, as if no abductor is charged and found guilty you don’t have to pay out until both parents are dead and buried. It’s morally reprehensible to bet on the fate of the parents of a missing child imo.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 08, 2019, 08:37:51 AM
You have an advantage in the wager, as if no abductor is charged and found guilty you don’t have to pay out until both parents are dead and buried. It’s morally reprehensible to bet on the fate of the parents of a missing child imo.

the wager expose very poor logic...could monkey explain when I have to pay out
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on June 08, 2019, 08:51:41 AM
the wager expose very poor logic...could monkey explain when I have to pay out

Never, I would say.  But then I doubt that Cheeky Monkey will accept a tried and convicted Abductor.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 08, 2019, 09:15:17 AM
Of course he would, that’s the whole nature of the bet. Without a CONVICTED abductor, there will NEVER be proof that Madeleine was abducted. Any conviction for Kate or Gerry and Davel loses. If he names a price that I am willing to accept to accept. He did ask me to up the ante, so it’s now for him to inform me what his idea of up the ante actually is?????

I’m in Stornoway at the moment about to begin to cycle the Hebridean Way. The signal might get a little wonky but I will try to keep up with Davel’s counter proposal.  8(0(*

could ypu answer a simple question...you pay out if an abductor appears in the dock...when do I have to pay out...I think your logic nd thinking is totally garblred...so...when do I have to pay out
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on June 08, 2019, 09:19:16 AM
could ypu answer a simple question...you pay out if an abductor appears in the dock...when do I have to pay out...I think your logic nd thinking is totally garblred...so...when do I have to pay out

Exactly.  When?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 08, 2019, 09:22:24 AM
They can’t be a proven abductor without a guilty verdict in the dock, can they? Your little fly man routine is an abject failure on this occasion my little friend.

I could not have been any clearer. Any conviction of Kate and Gerry for anything to do with Madeleine, you pay out.

you could have been a lot clearer...thats the first time youve mentioned that....there has to be  a reasonable time limit ....  what would you suggest
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on June 08, 2019, 09:29:31 AM
Of course he would, that’s the whole nature of the bet. Without a CONVICTED abductor, there will NEVER be proof that Madeleine was abducted. Any conviction for Kate or Gerry and Davel loses. If he names a price that I am willing to accept. He did ask me to up the ante, so it’s now for him to inform me what his idea of upping the ante actually is?????

I’m in Stornoway at the moment about to begin to cycle the Hebridean Way. The signal might get a little wonky but I will try to keep up with Davel’s counter proposal.  8(0(*

I so envy you. Say hello to Benbecula for me if you go there. Winfield Way Balivanich to be orecise.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 08, 2019, 09:50:04 AM
The duration of the investigation has already been clearly stated.

I havent seen it...if its that simple please repeat
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 08, 2019, 09:52:44 AM
I stayed in Ullapool Thursday. A wonderful little place in spite of the fund.

I’ll be sure to raise a glass to your good self when I get there. Monday, Tuesday is Benbecula. It was 23 in Stornoway yesterday and today looks the same.  &^&*%

Caranas post re admissibilty of evidence was removed as off topic...LOL
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: John on June 08, 2019, 04:00:55 PM
I find Kate's honesty hard to understand. For three months Mark Warner allowed her children to use the creche. Fibally they asked her to take them out when it began to upset their customers; because where the McCanns went the media scrum followed. Her initial reaction was to blame those customers, then the media.

It never seemed to enter her head to wonder if she and her husband should share some of the blame. After all, if they hadn't still been using a facility which they had no right to use the media wouldn't have been causing mayhem at the entrance to the Tapas complex.

Dare I suggest that had they used the night creche facilities made available at the time we wouldn't be here now discussing this.  $65*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on June 08, 2019, 06:55:23 PM
Dare I suggest that had they used the night creche facilities made available at the time we wouldn't be here now discussing this.  $65*

You do know it's verboten to point out their 'mistakes'?

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 08, 2019, 07:17:56 PM
You do know it's verboten to point out their 'mistakes'?
I think I've established in my mind today (being a relative newcomer) that it was a succession of poor choices.
They didn't use the available babysitter facilities, they left the kids alone and they left the back door open for pure convenience. At least lock the door and go round FFS.
I know none of this is news.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on June 08, 2019, 07:33:23 PM
I think I've established in my mind today (being a relative newcomer) that it was a succession of poor choices.
They didn't use the available babysitter facilities, they left the kids alone and they left the back door open for pure convenience. At least lock the door and go round FFS.
I know none of this is news.

If they hadn't been who they were I might agree. Also, they had decided what they were going to do before they got there, so 'it felt so safe' wasn't why they did it; at best it's why they went ahead with their plan.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 08, 2019, 11:55:47 PM
If they hadn't been who they were I might agree. Also, they had decided what they were going to do before they got there, so 'it felt so safe' wasn't why they did it; at best it's why they went ahead with their plan.
Who were they?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 09, 2019, 03:08:42 AM
Who were they?
Group of intelligent parents.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on June 09, 2019, 07:45:37 AM
Group of intelligent parents.

Who should therefore have known better.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on June 09, 2019, 08:00:02 AM
Who should therefore have known better.

Why?
Do only unintelligent people make unwise decisions?
I've known of very intelligent people make unwise decisions and people who are not so intelligent making wise decisions.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 09, 2019, 09:05:09 AM
Who should therefore have known better.
So what sort of parents shouldn’t have known better and would have elicited more understanding from yourself?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on June 09, 2019, 09:24:13 AM
So what sort of parents shouldn’t have known better and would have elicited more understanding from yourself?

I wouldn't be understanding towards anyone leaving small children home alone, but I might have been more inclined to believe some people were daft enough to not understand the risks.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 09, 2019, 09:36:18 AM
I wouldn't be understanding towards anyone leaving small children home alone, but I might have been more inclined to believe some people were daft enough to not understand the risks.
So you think smart people don’t take risks?  My parents are smart and they left me alone in far more perilous situations. It’s possible to be highly intelligent and completely stupid at the same time.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on June 09, 2019, 09:54:24 AM
So you think smart people don’t take risks?  My parents are smart and they left me alone in far more perilous situations. It’s possible to be highly intelligent and completely stupid at the same time.

I completely agree. Their intelligence is totally irrelevant because they didn't use it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 09, 2019, 10:17:30 AM
I completely agree. Their intelligence is totally irrelevant because they didn't use it.
So why did you bring it up?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on June 09, 2019, 12:02:08 PM
So why did you bring it up?

Bring what up?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 09, 2019, 02:57:27 PM
Bring what up?
”If they hadn’t been who they were I might agree” (with the General’s post about their series of poor choices). What did you mean by this?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on June 09, 2019, 03:25:35 PM
”If they hadn’t been who they were I might agree” (with the General’s post about their series of poor choices). What did you mean by this?

Intelligent or stupid they were doctors. In my opinion they knew that leaving amall children home alone was risky.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 09, 2019, 03:45:40 PM
Intelligent or stupid they were doctors. In my opinion they knew that leaving amall children home alone was risky.

Intelligence and common sense aren't the same. IMO there was a complete absence of the latter the night Maddie disappeared.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 09, 2019, 04:05:00 PM
Intelligent or stupid they were doctors. In my opinion they knew that leaving amall children home alone was risky.
Tell me what parent doesn't know that there is a risk (albeit a small one) of leaving children home alone asleep in their beds.  They made a series of poor choices according to the General, my point was that you didn't agree with the General on the basis that they were "who they were".  That makes little sense to me. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 09, 2019, 04:23:55 PM
Tell me what parent doesn't know that there is a risk (albeit a small one) of leaving children home alone asleep in their beds.  They made a series of poor choices according to the General, my point was that you didn't agree with the General on the basis that they were "who they were".  That makes little sense to me.

It was abject stupidity. Any one of the children could have been sick and choked or succumbed to smoke inhalation following a house fire.  You never ever leave young children alone for any more than a few minutes. At least David Payne had the forethought to bring a child monitor with him.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 09, 2019, 05:07:39 PM
It was abject stupidity. Any one of the children could have been sick and choked or succumbed to smoke inhalation following a house fire.  You never ever leave young children alone for any more than a few minutes. At least David Payne had the forethought to bring a child monitor with him.
That has nothing to do with my post, which in any case was addressed to G-Unit, who seems to think that because they were intelligent they would not have made poor choices.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 09, 2019, 05:09:14 PM
It was abject stupidity. Any one of the children could have been sick and choked or succumbed to smoke inhalation following a house fire.  You never ever leave young children alone for any more than a few minutes. At least David Payne had the forethought to bring a child monitor with him.
My original point was that it was compounded by the negligent act of leaving the patio door open purely for convenience. Odd decision for such an active couple, saving a minutes walk and increasing the risk of leaving them exponentially.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on June 09, 2019, 05:14:35 PM
That has nothing to do with my post, which in any case was addressed to G-Unit, who seems to think that because they were intelligent they would not have made poor choices.

I don't think anyone can go 1 + 1 = 4 can make it add up either.

But please feel free to try.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 09, 2019, 05:17:00 PM
I don't think anyone can go 1 + 1 = 4 can make it add up either.

But please feel free to try.
There is nothing to add up.  They did what they did, time to accept it and get over it. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on June 09, 2019, 05:30:15 PM
It was abject stupidity. Any one of the children could have been sick and choked or succumbed to smoke inhalation following a house fire.  You never ever leave young children alone for any more than a few minutes. At least David Payne had the forethought to bring a child monitor with him.

If one of the Payne children had been targeted I don't think the monitor would have been of the slightest use.  It was designed to alert parents to a distressed child ... not as a security system to thwart anyone with evil intent who might choose to enter the premises in silence.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on June 09, 2019, 05:34:35 PM
If one of the Payne children had been targeted I don't think the monitor would have been of the slightest use.  It was designed to alert parents to a distressed child ... not as a security system to thwart anyone with evil intent who might choose to enter the premises in silence.

Whereas I disagree.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 09, 2019, 05:50:10 PM
If one of the Payne children had been targeted I don't think the monitor would have been of the slightest use.  It was designed to alert parents to a distressed child ... not as a security system to thwart anyone with evil intent who might choose to enter the premises in silence.
They would hear noise. They may hear voices. They may hear the child protesting.
How would a would-be abductor know to be silent? It would be nigh on impossible to snatch a child noiselessly - it would take a couple of ninjas in socks.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on June 09, 2019, 05:53:46 PM
Whereas I disagree.

One might have been interested in your post had you expanded it to include precisely with what part of mine you disagreed with.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 09, 2019, 05:54:33 PM
They would hear noise. They may hear voices. They may hear the child protesting.
How would a would-be abductor know to be silent? It would be nigh on impossible to snatch a child noiselessly - it would take a couple of ninjas in socks.
When you’re sitting outside at a restaurant, with eight other people chatting and the baby monitor is on the table, not pressed up against your ear, the only sound from it you’re likely to notice coming from it  is a wailing child IMO
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 09, 2019, 06:06:26 PM
When you’re sitting outside at a restaurant, with eight other people chatting and the baby monitor is on the table, not pressed up against your ear, the only sound from it you’re likely to notice coming from it  is a wailing child IMO
So a baby monitor is just to assuage the parents' conscience?

'New from JML. Are you out on the lash with some mates? How about on holiday, but looking to reprise the frivolity of previous holidays and previous nights without the social stigma of leaving the kids unattended? Then you need Conscience Assuager (c). Conscience Assuager (c) will give you a false sense of peace of mind, while giving the illusion of responsible parenting. Appear to listen to your kids at the dinner table* while the rest of the party have to cobble together a checking regime - you just sit there, smug as a you like, quaffing and scoffing.
Never leave home without it - literally!

*up to 50m radius. Not to be used as an actual monitor. Kids may not necessarily be heard. Relatively pointless as an actual monitoring device.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 09, 2019, 06:14:06 PM
So a baby monitor is just to assuage the parents' conscience?

'New from JML. Are you out on the lash with some mates? How about on holiday, but looking to reprise the frivolity of previous holidays and previous nights without the social stigma of leaving the kids unattended? Then you need Conscience Assuager (c). Conscience Assuager (c) will give you a false sense of peace of mind, while giving the illusion of responsible parenting. Appear to listen to your kids at the dinner table* while the rest of the party have to cobble together a checking regime - you just sit there, smug as a you like, quaffing and scoffing.
Never leave home without it - literally!

*up to 50m radius. Not to be used as an actual monitor. Kids may not necessarily be heard. Relatively pointless as an actual monitoring device.
Exactly.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on June 09, 2019, 06:23:29 PM
They would hear noise. They may hear voices. They may hear the child protesting.
How would a would-be abductor know to be silent? It would be nigh on impossible to snatch a child noiselessly - it would take a couple of ninjas in socks.
How many children holidaying in the Algarve were assaulted by an intruder ... all while the parents were under the same roof and sometimes with siblings in the same room?
The fact that happened on numerous occasions rather destroys your assumptions.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on June 09, 2019, 06:29:01 PM
So a baby monitor is just to assuage the parents' conscience?

'New from JML. Are you out on the lash with some mates? How about on holiday, but looking to reprise the frivolity of previous holidays and previous nights without the social stigma of leaving the kids unattended? Then you need Conscience Assuager (c). Conscience Assuager (c) will give you a false sense of peace of mind, while giving the illusion of responsible parenting. Appear to listen to your kids at the dinner table* while the rest of the party have to cobble together a checking regime - you just sit there, smug as a you like, quaffing and scoffing.
Never leave home without it - literally!

*up to 50m radius. Not to be used as an actual monitor. Kids may not necessarily be heard. Relatively pointless as an actual monitoring device.

 @)(++(*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 09, 2019, 06:29:30 PM
Exactly.
If the McCann's would have had one it would be all......'yeh, it's super sensitive, I heard a spider walking across the floor on it the other day. I heard they're designed by GCHQ with nano-technology reverse-engineered from a downed Russian spy satellite. I sometimes see noises on it'.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on June 09, 2019, 06:35:42 PM
If the McCann's would have had one it would be all......'yeh, it's super sensitive, I heard a spider walking across the floor on it the other day. I heard they're designed by GCHQ with nano-technology reverse-engineered from a downed Russian spy satellite. I sometimes see noises on it'.

Anyway ... what was it that Mark Saunokonoko's podcasts were advocating about baby monitors ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 09, 2019, 06:39:47 PM
How many children holidaying in the Algarve were assaulted by an intruder ... all while the parents were under the same roof and sometimes with siblings in the same room?
The fact that happened on numerous occasions rather destroys your assumptions.
I'm totally deflated by that destruction. Reminds me of when Bret Hart was pinned by the British Bulldog at Summer Slam '92.
One word: vigilance. With a baby monitor used externally, every noise will sound like the kids are in some mortal danger. If you're in your own home or apartment, you feel relatively safe and are not listening for odd noises.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 09, 2019, 06:46:59 PM
If the McCann's would have had one it would be all......'yeh, it's super sensitive, I heard a spider walking across the floor on it the other day. I heard they're designed by GCHQ with nano-technology reverse-engineered from a downed Russian spy satellite. I sometimes see noises on it'.
If the McCanns had used one, they would have been accused of fakng an abduction because apparently it is not physically possible to abduct a child if a monitor is being used to listen in on them.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 09, 2019, 06:49:44 PM
If the McCanns had used one, they would have been accused of fakng an abduction because apparently it is not physically possible to abduct a child if a monitor is being used to listen in on them.
So what we're landing on here is because they didn't get one, they're rubbish anyway.
Maybe they didn't get one because they didn't want to hear the kids whinging all night?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on June 09, 2019, 06:56:30 PM
If the McCanns had used one, they would have been accused of fakng an abduction because apparently it is not physically possible to abduct a child if a monitor is being used to listen in on them.

That is a definition of struggling.

Care to have another go?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 09, 2019, 07:00:53 PM
So what we're landing on here is because they didn't get one, they're rubbish anyway.
Maybe they didn't get one because they didn't want to hear the kids whinging all night?
Maybe, or maybe they knew that they simply don’t work very well outdoors, and that regular checks though more effort are usually more reliable. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 09, 2019, 07:01:43 PM
That is a definition of struggling.

Care to have another go?
No,  I am not struggling, and you are attacking me for no reason.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on June 09, 2019, 07:06:22 PM
No,  I am not struggling, and you are attacking me for no reason.

Eeek.  Wheels came off the bus.

Report me.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 09, 2019, 07:19:18 PM
Maybe, or maybe they knew that they simply don’t work very well outdoors, and that regular checks though more effort are usually more reliable.
Equally, locking the back door would ensure reliability.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 09, 2019, 07:26:07 PM
Equally, locking the back door would ensure reliability.
Not really.  Locking thr back door may reduce risk but not provide surety about anything.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 09, 2019, 07:26:40 PM
Eeek.  Wheels came off the bus.

Report me.
It’s really not worth the effort. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 09, 2019, 07:29:55 PM
Not really.  Locking thr back door may reduce risk but not provide surety about anything.
Of course it would. It would make it much harder for Jimmy to get in. It might even deter Jimmy altogether.
An open door, however, is Merry Christmas, Jimbo*


*if Jimmy exists
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 09, 2019, 07:37:23 PM
It would provide surety that it reduced the risk, wouldn’t it?
Of course it would. The extent some supporters will compromise themselves to defend or excuse this litany of deplorable decisions amuses me.
Simple risk assessment. You're not eliminating the risk, you're mitigating it - lock the door, ffs. If you don't, then you don't mitigate risk at all - and we're back to acts or omissions of a reasonable person.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 09, 2019, 07:42:22 PM
It was abject stupidity. Any one of the children could have been sick and choked or succumbed to smoke inhalation following a house fire.  You never ever leave young children alone for any more than a few minutes. At least David Payne had the forethought to bring a child monitor with him.
Can you hear a child choking over a baby monitor?   You'd need one monitor per child to be really safe IMO.  And then your ear would have to be glued to it all the time.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 09, 2019, 07:44:55 PM
Of course it would. The extent some supporters will compromise themselves to defend or excuse this litany of deplorable decisions amuses me.
Simple risk assessment. You're not eliminating the risk, you're mitigating it - lock the door, ffs. If you don't, then you don't mitigate risk at all - and we're back to acts or omissions of a reasonable person.

they were wrong to do what they did....I wouldnt do it...but i understand why they did it
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 09, 2019, 07:45:29 PM
Can you hear a child choking over a baby monitor?   You'd need one monitor per child to be really safe IMO.  And then your ear would have to be glued to it all the time.
Are we saying that a baby monitor is useless? What was Payne thinking? Idiot.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on June 09, 2019, 07:45:45 PM
It was abject stupidity. Any one of the children could have been sick and choked or succumbed to smoke inhalation following a house fire.  You never ever leave young children alone for any more than a few minutes. At least David Payne had the forethought to bring a child monitor with him.

It seems plenty of people do it; goodness knows what else goes on. It was DP's fault they were all running up and down, but he didn't have to do it. Although Gerry thought he did on Wednesday for some reason.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 09, 2019, 07:46:41 PM
they were wrong to do what they did....I wouldnt do it...but i understand why they did it
I do mate, so they didn't have to walk all the way round to the front.
They must have been gutted when they found the patio door only locked from the inside.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 09, 2019, 07:50:26 PM
I do mate, so they didn't have to walk all the way round to the front.
They must have been gutted when they found the patio door only locked from the inside.

I dont want to get into pointless discussions so just take thsi as my opinion....they said early on that he raeson they didnt use the front door was because it was noisy and could have woken the children
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 09, 2019, 07:52:42 PM
I dont want to get into pointless discussions so just take thsi as my opinion....they said early on that he raeson they didnt use the front door was because it was noisy and could have woken the children
I reckon my reason is the reason.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on June 09, 2019, 07:53:28 PM
I do mate, so they didn't have to walk all the way round to the front.
They must have been gutted when they found the patio door only locked from the inside.

Not nearly as gutted as Mark Saunokonoko will be now that his little sideline has dried up ... unless of course he invokes the twelve year tried and tested wheeze of going back to the very beginning and hashing it all over again.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 09, 2019, 07:55:04 PM
Are we saying that a baby monitor is useless? What was Payne thinking? Idiot.
What claims do the manufacturers of baby monitors give with their equipment?  Do they have them in schools when they are short of teachers?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 09, 2019, 07:56:51 PM
Not nearly as gutted as Mark Saunokonoko will be now that his little sideline has dried up ... unless of course he invokes the twelve year tried and tested wheeze of going back to the very beginning and hashing it all over again.
I like that little meander back on topic.
I actually thought the podcasts were relatively balanced....and somewhat forgettable actually.
The litmus test will be to see if Channel9, or whatever they're called, pour similar resources in to other ongoing unsolved cases.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 09, 2019, 07:59:46 PM
What claims do the manufacturers of baby monitors give with their equipment?  Do they have them in schools when they are short of teachers?
Got to be honest mate, that's lame.
Schools  / teachers act in loco parentis. I think Ofsted might mark then down a couple of points for replacing a teacher with a (highly effective and sensitive) conscience assuager.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 09, 2019, 08:12:06 PM
Got to be honest mate, that's lame.
Schools  / teachers act in loco parentis. I think Ofsted might mark then down a couple of points for replacing a teacher with a (highly effective and sensitive) conscience assuager.
It might be a choice between using a baby monitor or having a class of 90 kids.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on June 09, 2019, 08:26:52 PM
I do mate, so they didn't have to walk all the way round to the front.
They must have been gutted when they found the patio door only locked from the inside.

Kate said she wasn't jealous of the Payne's view because 'at least she didn't need to worry about her kids in her balcony'. Yeah, because it wouldn't have hurt at all if they took a header off that one, would it?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 09, 2019, 08:29:20 PM
Kate said she wasn't jealous of the Payne's view because 'at least she didn't need to worry about her kids in her balcony'. Yeah, because it wouldn't have hurt at all if they took a header off that one, would it?
Physics will prove you wrong on that one.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 09, 2019, 08:42:08 PM
its Kate that would have been proven wrong. Perhaps the physics of children falling ten feet from a balcony wasn’t included in their risk assessment. According to them a risk assessment was never given a second thought.

So they say!
Well at some stage she must have considered the issue of the balcony.  Her words were quoted.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on June 09, 2019, 08:46:46 PM
its Kate that would have been proven wrong. Perhaps the physics of children falling ten feet from a balcony wasn’t included in their risk assessment. According to them a risk assessment was never given a second thought.

So they say!

Except, strangely, on Thursday. Kate wondered if leaving the patio door open was a good idea. Gerry said it would be fine. End of discussion. She actually suggested it was left open for Madeleine's benefit; so she could get out. I'm surprised Madeleine wasn't sent to Kid's Club on her own, she clearly had capabilities beyond her years.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 09, 2019, 08:48:52 PM
Except, strangely, on Thursday. Kate wondered if leaving the patio door open was a good idea. Gerry said it would be fine. End of discussion. She actually suggested it was left open for Madeleine's benefit; so she could get out. I'm surprised Madeleine wasn't sent to Kid's Club on her own, she clearly had capabilities beyond her years.
They encouraged independence in their kids.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 09, 2019, 08:50:50 PM
Except, strangely, on Thursday. Kate wondered if leaving the patio door open was a good idea. Gerry said it would be fine. End of discussion. She actually suggested it was left open for Madeleine's benefit; so she could get out. I'm surprised Madeleine wasn't sent to Kid's Club on her own, she clearly had capabilities beyond her years.

del
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 09, 2019, 08:52:49 PM
getting back on topic...i listened to the latest podcast today where jim Clements referred to the disappearance as the abduction...very telling...the EX SY woman claimed  jim gamble has now said he beleives maddie woke and wandered...so shes not to well informed ...other than taht ....nothing
So where did she go wrong then?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 09, 2019, 08:54:46 PM
So where did she go wrong then?

gamble has said its  a possibility...not that he now believes tahts what happened
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 09, 2019, 08:57:08 PM
gamble has said its  a possibility...not that he now believes tahts what happened
Where is the cite for what Jim Gamble said?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 09, 2019, 08:58:35 PM
They would hear noise. They may hear voices. They may hear the child protesting.
How would a would-be abductor know to be silent? It would be nigh on impossible to snatch a child noiselessly - it would take a couple of ninjas in socks.

 @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*    ninjas in socks  8((()*/
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 09, 2019, 09:00:09 PM
Where is the cite for what Jim Gamble said?

find it yourself ...Im sure most posters are aware...try the netflix doc...wheres her cite
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 09, 2019, 09:00:21 PM
When you’re sitting outside at a restaurant, with eight other people chatting and the baby monitor is on the table, not pressed up against your ear, the only sound from it you’re likely to notice coming from it  is a wailing child IMO

Do you think a child wouldn't wail if a stranger entered her bedroom and tried to carry her off?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 09, 2019, 09:02:05 PM
find it yourself ...Im sure most posters are aware...try the netflix doc...wheres her cite
No you say she is wrong, you show it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 09, 2019, 09:04:03 PM
No you say she is wrong, you show it.

thats not how it works...first shes amde the calim...second...anyone who is familiar with the case knows taht isnt true...as a mod you should be familiar with the facts
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 09, 2019, 09:04:16 PM
If the McCanns had used one, they would have been accused of fakng an abduction because apparently it is not physically possible to abduct a child if a monitor is being used to listen in on them.

Truth is if they had used one they would have saved poor Mrs Fenn so much anguish.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 09, 2019, 09:06:03 PM
Maybe, or maybe they knew that they simply don’t work very well outdoors, and that regular checks though more effort are usually more reliable.

The latter part is debatable if the checks aren't done for over an hour.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 09, 2019, 09:08:19 PM
Of course it would. It would make it much harder for Jimmy to get in. It might even deter Jimmy altogether.
An open door, however, is Merry Christmas, Jimbo*


*if Jimmy exists

I prefer Alberto the abductor personally?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 09, 2019, 09:09:24 PM
Can you hear a child choking over a baby monitor?   You'd need one monitor per child to be really safe IMO.  And then your ear would have to be glued to it all the time.

Yes and they do have a volume control you know.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 09, 2019, 09:10:17 PM
they were wrong to do what they did....I wouldnt do it...but i understand why they did it

Lazy and selfish?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 09, 2019, 09:11:46 PM
I dont want to get into pointless discussions so just take thsi as my opinion....they said early on that he raeson they didnt use the front door was because it was noisy and could have woken the children

Better that than losing one wouldn't you say?   8)-)))
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 09, 2019, 09:12:14 PM
Lazy and selfish?

thats your opinion...and yo re entitled to it...unfortuanately im not entitled to mine
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 09, 2019, 09:13:14 PM
Better that than losing one wouldn't you say?   8)-)))

I think thats a pathetic comment...accompanied by a smiley face...disgraceful...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 09, 2019, 09:14:30 PM
Yes and they do have a volume control you know.
I've never had a monitor, nor have I seen one in use. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 09, 2019, 09:14:38 PM
Except, strangely, on Thursday. Kate wondered if leaving the patio door open was a good idea. Gerry said it would be fine. End of discussion. She actually suggested it was left open for Madeleine's benefit; so she could get out. I'm surprised Madeleine wasn't sent to Kid's Club on her own, she clearly had capabilities beyond her years.

She got out ok but took the wrong door imo.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 09, 2019, 09:14:43 PM
Of course it would. The extent some supporters will compromise themselves to defend or excuse this litany of deplorable decisions amuses me.
Simple risk assessment. You're not eliminating the risk, you're mitigating it - lock the door, ffs. If you don't, then you don't mitigate risk at all - and we're back to acts or omissions of a reasonable person.
Be amused if you must, but you said that locking the door would ensure reliability, I was simply pointing out that it would ensure nothing of the kind.  If that represents “defending or excusing the McCanns actions” perhaps you could explain why. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 09, 2019, 09:15:25 PM
I've never had a monitor, nor have I seen one in use.

It's just an intercom for babies, modern ones have video now.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 09, 2019, 09:16:36 PM
Better that than losing one wouldn't you say?   8)-)))
I think thats one of your most disgusting posts with your smiling emoji...you are a complete disgrace
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 09, 2019, 09:17:52 PM
gamble has said its  a possibility...not that he now believes tahts what happened

He's coming round to some and wandered at last.  I wonder what persuaded him?  *%87
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 09, 2019, 09:19:06 PM
I think thats one of your most disgusting posts with your smiling emoji...you are a complete disgrace

It's true isn't it?  Most people hope to return from holiday with all their kids in tow.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 09, 2019, 09:20:46 PM
It's just an intercom for babies, modern ones have video now.
So you would need two if the kids were in separate rooms then? One video per child would be optimum IMO.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 09, 2019, 09:21:03 PM
They encouraged independence in their kids.
Of that there is no question. Maddie would be learning quickly in that apartment every night, that's for sure.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 09, 2019, 09:21:45 PM
It's true isn't it?  Most people hope to return from holiday with all their kids in tow.

I dont see its someting to laugh about...at least youve shown your true colours
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 09, 2019, 09:28:22 PM
I've never had a monitor, nor have I seen one in use.
Neither have I. Although their primary use is to keep a check on kids while you're downstairs in the same house, not across the road in a Tapas bar.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 09, 2019, 09:34:38 PM
Do you think a child wouldn't wail if a stranger entered her bedroom and tried to carry her off?
I don’t think you can say for certain how any child would react in that situation, assuming they even woke up.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 09, 2019, 09:36:27 PM
Neither have I. Although their primary use is to keep a check on kids while you're downstairs in the same house, not across the road in a Tapas bar.
They seem to be acceptable as long as they are used within range. Does anyone object to the use of baby monitors by parents dining out?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 09, 2019, 09:38:28 PM
They seem to be acceptable as long as they are used within range. Does anyone object to the use of baby monitors by parents dining out?
Don't know. But I'd be up and down like a blue-arsed fly with every little noise.
Maybe just take the kids with you.
Or stay in.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 09, 2019, 09:41:18 PM
Don't know. But I'd be up and down like a blue-arsed fly with every little noise.
Maybe just take the kids with you.
Or stay in.
They were past the age of dying from cot death.  Just settle down and enjoy the meal, but deadlock the doors.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 09, 2019, 09:53:18 PM
They were past the age of dying from cot death.  Just settle down and enjoy the meal, but deadlock the doors.
Or don't.
They were of the age of dying from all manner of other hazards though, which have been listed many times.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 09, 2019, 09:56:21 PM
Or don't.
They were of the age of dying from all manner of other hazards though, which have been listed many times.

based on the evidence the evidence thats a very weak argumet,,...how many chlilren came  harm having been left in chalets at butlins
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 09, 2019, 09:57:25 PM
based on the evidence the evidence thats a very weak argumet,,...how many chlilren came  harm having been left in chalets at butlins
It was 33% in this case.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 09, 2019, 09:58:44 PM
It was 33% in this case.

another poor argument...try answerring the question
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 09, 2019, 09:59:13 PM
They were past the age of dying from cot death.  Just settle down and enjoy the meal, but deadlock the doors.

When we went out dining on holiday the kids went too and slept in their buggy.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 09, 2019, 10:01:52 PM
another poor argument...try answerring the question
Let me just ring Bobby Butlin.
How do I know what the AFR of children on monitoring per camp is?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on June 09, 2019, 10:14:37 PM
I think thats one of your most disgusting posts with your smiling emoji...you are a complete disgrace

In my opinion those who make excuses for people who put themselves before their children are a disgrace. Every other parent there made arrangements for evening childcare, stayed in or took their children out with them.  Only that group left their children unattended.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 09, 2019, 10:19:11 PM
In my opinion those who make excuses for people who put themselves before their children are a disgrace. Every other parent there made arrangements for evening childcare, stayed in or took their children out with them.  Only that group left their children unattended.

so you support angelo laughing at maddies disappearnce  imo you are  a dsigrace and have shown your true colours..it saddens me there are such nasty poeple   on this forum
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on June 09, 2019, 10:43:26 PM
so you support angelo laughing at maddies disappearnce  imo you are  a dsigrace and have shown your true colours..it saddens me there are such nasty poeple   on this forum

I was just giving my opinion on which people are disgraceful. It may surprise you to learm that I don't care what you think of me because I don't respect your judgement at all.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on June 10, 2019, 11:35:01 AM
They were past the age of dying from cot death.  Just settle down and enjoy the meal, but deadlock the doors.
At risk of appearing pedantic ... I do not think one is ever 'past the age of cot death'.  For many years there has been an awareness of young people and adults inexplicably dying ... which has been attributed to the syndrome.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn3564-adult-cot-death-may-explain-mystery-fatalities/
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 10, 2019, 11:53:07 AM
Whether Mark Saunokonoko is gutted or not is neither here nor there IMO. The fact he has let the wider public know the question that Mr Lowe couldn’t answer, can now be answered, could yet turn out to be very important. The value of knowing, did the sample from the hire car actually match Madeleine or merely appear to match Madeleine by chance, cannot be overestimated in establishing what did happen to Madeleine IMO.

Interesting: the supporters and the 'family friends' who talk to the press, are all talking from the same  script;
They seem to hate the walk and wandered theory- reasons unknown as no evidence of abductor in apartment
They seem to  hate the PJ and Portuguese press
they seem to hate anyone questioning the parents
They seem to hate with unfathonable measure of Sr AMARAL
They seem to hate the Portugues justice system
The dogs, witnesses against the McCanns and  anyone trying to assist them - even from the begining were canned and discussed in derogatory ways.


Some would argue-All great news for little Maddie, she  is probably still alive and loving her parents still and wanting to be reunited with them.

The swipe at Mark S... is a low blow considering the parents who caused their daughters demise (whatever that is) made more money, became celebrities for a short while, were VIPs in some circles, became millionaires (via a fund), and were never charged with anything regarding their daughters disappearance ,AND to top all that they were even saved from every being criticised for what they did.

NICE ONE... ^*&&




Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on June 10, 2019, 01:06:28 PM
Interesting: the supporters and the 'family friends' who talk to the press, are all talking from the same  script;
They seem to hate the walk and wandered theory- reasons unknown as no evidence of abductor in apartment
They seem to  hate the PJ and Portuguese press
they seem to hate anyone questioning the parents
They seem to hate with unfathonable measure of Sr AMARAL
They seem to hate the Portugues justice system
The dogs, witnesses against the McCanns and  anyone trying to assist them - even from the begining were canned and discussed in derogatory ways.


Some would argue-All great news for little Maddie, she  is probably still alive and loving her parents still and wanting to be reunited with them.

The swipe at Mark S... is a low blow considering the parents who caused their daughters demise (whatever that is) made more money, became celebrities for a short while, were VIPs in some circles, became millionaires (via a fund), and were never charged with anything regarding their daughters disappearance ,AND to top all that they were even saved from every being criticised for what they did.

NICE ONE... ^*&&


And still not suspects.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 10, 2019, 02:49:49 PM
And still not suspects.

And still they haven't been cleared according to Portugal's Supreme Court.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 10, 2019, 02:59:36 PM
And still not suspects.

Still not suspected of what?  what crime are they not suspected of committing?

There has been no information from either police investigators to state what the situation is regarding Maddies mortal state on her exit from the apartment.  They have not commented recently as to  the abduction from the window- or they have not confirmed this was the case. Indeed if they are looking at woke and wandered- this
really does shed a light on the Tapas crew and their versions of the accounts given of that night.

It is also interesting that the police are naming many people as 'suspects' according to UK press reports recently and they all seem to come out on anniversaries for some weird reason...


I suspect the reason for this is deflection,deflection,deflection.




Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Carana on June 10, 2019, 03:06:14 PM
And still they haven't been cleared according to Portugal's Supreme Court.

How could they be? They haven't even been arguidos for over a decade, let alone charged and tried.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 10, 2019, 03:12:49 PM
How could they be? They haven't even been arguidos for over a decade, let alone charged and tried.

Had they and their reconstruction-shy friends cooperated fully with the original investigation then they could very well have been excluded as persons of interest. But as another poster has already pointed out, the moment the police took an interest in the tapas group was the moment they all put up the walls. I have often wondered what a full reconstruction would have uncovered.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 10, 2019, 03:20:05 PM
Still not suspected of what?  what crime are they not suspected of committing?

There has been no information from either police investigators to state what the situation is regarding Maddies mortal state on her exit from the apartment.  They have not commented recently as to  the abduction from the window- or they have not confirmed this was the case. Indeed if they are looking at woke and wandered- this
really does shed a light on the Tapas crew and their versions of the accounts given of that night.

It is also interesting that the police are naming many people as 'suspects' according to UK press reports recently and they all seem to come out on anniversaries for some weird reason...


I suspect the reason for this is deflection,deflection,deflection.

SY haven't any more of a notion what happened to Maddie than we here do. They have however boxed themselves into a corner by continually rolling out the abducted from her bedroom story. That IMO will be their downfall in the end when the day of reckoning comes about.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Carana on June 10, 2019, 03:27:14 PM
Had they and their reconstruction-shy friends cooperated fully with the original investigation then they could very well have been excluded as persons of interest. But as another poster has already pointed out, the moment the police took an interest in the tapas group was the moment they all put up the walls. I have often wondered what a full reconstruction would have uncovered.


Why only the T9 + Jez? What about all the other people around there that evening?

What's materially impossible?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 10, 2019, 04:40:32 PM

Why only the T9 + Jez? What about all the other people around there that evening?

What's materially impossible?

Yes, interesting isn't it? they are all each others witneses. Jez being the exceptionas an INDEPENDANT witness. chatted for a few minutes. never saw Jane or an abductor.Or heard windows being jemmied. Or noticed gushing winds

So let us look at the opportunity the gang,person, whoever... 'jimmy abductor'. what are the Mcanns and their die hard supporters offering us?

the apartment is being watched by staff  or others who read the childs crache  notes and saw the kids being left alone- they used a key- after jemmying the shutters, which in this one off case didn't make any noise at all- just as well as they could have woke the children, but then the children were very fast asleep owing to the fact jimmy drugged em all,  (at this point I am thinking they used the key to get in and drugg- then forgot to tell other kidnappers to use the door)Tks. So anyway, jimmy almost being cought out by moving the door- hid in the house as Gerry was doing...  as Gerry and jez were chatting jimmy thought he should use this opperchancity to climb out the window with MBM in tow. leave her on the ground go back into the apartment clean it up a bit and wipe all dna away.

Yeah, I suppose it could have happened,that way and in that time frame, but then I loved the peter pan story.. kids flying out of windows in their jammies...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on June 10, 2019, 04:45:32 PM
Yes, interesting isn't it? they are all each others witneses. Jez being the exceptionas an INDEPENDANT witness. chatted for a few minutes. never saw Jane or an abductor.Or heard windows being jemmied. Or noticed gushing winds

So let us look at the opportunity the gang,person, whoever... 'jimmy abductor'. what are the Mcanns and their die hard supporters offering us?

the apartment is being watched by staff  or others who read the childs crache  notes and saw the kids being left alone- they used a key- after jemmying the shutters, which in this one off case didn't make any noise at all- just as well as they could have woke the children, but then the children were very fast asleep owing to the fact jimmy drugged em all,  (at this point I am thinking they used the key to get in and drugg- then forgot to tell other kidnappers to use the door)Tks. So anyway, jimmy almost being cought out by moving the door- hid in the house as Gerry was doing...  as Gerry and jez were chatting jimmy thought he should use this opperchancity to climb out the window with MBM in tow. leave her on the ground go back into the apartment clean it up a bit and wipe all dna away.

Yeah, I suppose it could have happened,that way and in that time frame, but then I loved the peter pan story.. kids flying out of windows in their jammies...

Such a pity that no one of importance is taking any notice.  But then they are much too busy looking for an abductor.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 10, 2019, 04:55:33 PM
Such a pity that no one of importance is taking any notice.  But then they are much too busy looking for an abductor.

Yes it is indeed a pity they are still  looking for an abductor. all over the world they travel and yet...
 8)><( none found
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on June 10, 2019, 05:04:18 PM
Yes it is indeed a pity they are still  looking for an abductor. all over the world they travel and yet...
 8)><( none found

Have you informed them of your diagnosis?  If you need help in putting this into understandable sentences then please do ask.
I like words you see, but they do have to make some sort of sense.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 10, 2019, 05:51:47 PM
Yes, interesting isn't it? ....snip ....

Yeah, I suppose it could have happened,that way and in that time frame, but then I loved the peter pan story.. kids flying out of windows in their jammies...
I just love it!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 10, 2019, 06:03:27 PM
Had they and their reconstruction-shy friends cooperated fully with the original investigation then they could very well have been excluded as persons of interest. But as another poster has already pointed out, the moment the police took an interest in the tapas group was the moment they all put up the walls. I have often wondered what a full reconstruction would have uncovered.
Nothing at all.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 10, 2019, 07:19:51 PM
Yes, interesting isn't it? they are all each others witneses. Jez being the exceptionas an INDEPENDANT witness. chatted for a few minutes. never saw Jane or an abductor.Or heard windows being jemmied. Or noticed gushing winds

So let us look at the opportunity the gang,person, whoever... 'jimmy abductor'. what are the Mcanns and their die hard supporters offering us?

the apartment is being watched by staff  or others who read the childs crache  notes and saw the kids being left alone- they used a key- after jemmying the shutters, which in this one off case didn't make any noise at all- just as well as they could have woke the children, but then the children were very fast asleep owing to the fact jimmy drugged em all,  (at this point I am thinking they used the key to get in and drugg- then forgot to tell other kidnappers to use the door)Tks. So anyway, jimmy almost being cought out by moving the door- hid in the house as Gerry was doing...  as Gerry and jez were chatting jimmy thought he should use this opperchancity to climb out the window with MBM in tow. leave her on the ground go back into the apartment clean it up a bit and wipe all dna away.

Yeah, I suppose it could have happened,that way and in that time frame, but then I loved the peter pan story.. kids flying out of windows in their jammies...

Jez was walking that area but the direction he came from before meeting Gerry meant the other side would be safer if any removal of Madeleine happened just before that meeting. You certainly wouldn't do a Tannerman and cross the same road they used to check. You go away from danger which was in the opposite direction towards the wasteland i.e. Smithman sighting side.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 10, 2019, 07:31:42 PM
Don’t you think it would have established if it was possible for Jane to have walked past Jez and Gerry on the same side of the street without either of them seeing her, at the very least? Or have you already established that in your own mind?
Where would the police have placed all the protagonists? 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 10, 2019, 08:02:53 PM
On the pavement near to the side gate as Jane and Jez said. Gerry crossing the road to the non-tapas side makes no sense when Jez had to cross to get back to his apartment lol.

p.s. Gerry put himself in a position with his back to Jane so he couldn't see her.  Jez would have been towering over him with him still on the road *%87
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on June 10, 2019, 08:26:28 PM
Where would the police have placed all the protagonists?

At the very least it would have been interesting to see Jez Wilkins trying to decide whether to go into the Tapas Restaurant, the Tapas Bar or the toilet. I don't know where the toilet was, and Jez wasn't very clear. It was either in the var, near the bar or in the pool area.
 https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY_BRIGET.htm
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS-ROGATORY.htm
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS.htm

In my opinion he went into the restaurant between 8:30 and 9:00 because that's what he told the PJ on 4th May when events were fresh in his mind.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 10, 2019, 08:47:42 PM
As has been pointed out dozens of times before the reconstitution would have proven nothing as it would have been impossible to mesh all the various recollections into one timeline, and any attempt to do so would have been pure guesswork, not an exact representation of that evening’s events.  It’s only purpose was to try and catch out the members of the McCann party, it could not have helped to determine any other scenario.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 10, 2019, 09:34:30 PM
As has been pointed out dozens of times before the reconstitution would have proven nothing as it would have been impossible to mesh all the various recollections into one timeline, and any attempt to do so would have been pure guesswork, not an exact representation of that evening’s events.  It’s only purpose was to try and catch out the members of the McCann party, it could not have helped to determine any other scenario.


It has also been pointed out dozens of times that a reconstruction would flagg up many annomolies.

Let us begin at the begining- putting the children to bed -we could use dolls. look at the door position  and the time-was Maddie under the covers as it was cold or on top of the covers where dad left her?

 at what time did they leave the apartment and what device did they use to check this time? (no one has watches or clocks) SO from that we can deduce  they did not know for certain what times they then left the table to do checking?
 They claimed every half hour- it would be intersting to see what device they used to clock watch with this very precarious schedule they claimed to have.

Bring in 'Jimmy the abductor'- where in this time frame would he be jemmying the shutters very very quietly so as not to wake the kids, grab MBM and get out carrying her according to JT .

The time line would show- HOW MANY MINUTES PASSED?
Gerry in the apartment watching his daughter proudly> he leaves> chats with JEZ for a few moments> along pops  JT seeing the abductor- just after Gerry left the apartment. in fact Gerry would have been in the street as the abductor was..erm   abducting?
So in essence what I am saying is this  IF gerry was in the apartment and no shutters were jemmied and MBM was where he left her how many minutes did it take for the abductor to get in and out with MBM  via a window?
A reconstructiotn would certainly show this up.


Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 10, 2019, 09:48:14 PM

It has also been pointed out dozens of times that a reconstruction would flagg up many annomolies.

Let us begin at the begining- putting the children to bed -we could use dolls. look at the door position  and the time-was Maddie under the covers as it was cold or on top of the covers where dad left her?

 at what time did they leave the apartment and what device did they use to check this time? (no one has watches or clocks) SO from that we can deduce  they did not know for certain what times they then left the table to do checking?
 They claimed every half hour- it would be intersting to see what device they used to clock watch with this very precarious schedule they claimed to have.

Bring in 'Jimmy the abductor'- where in this time frame would he be jemmying the shutters very very quietly so as not to wake the kids, grab MBM and get out carrying her according to JT .

The time line would show- HOW MANY MINUTES PASSED?
Gerry in the apartment watching his daughter proudly> he leaves> chats with JEZ for a few moments> along pops  JT seeing the abductor- just after Gerry left the apartment. in fact Gerry would have been in the street as the abductor was..erm   abducting?
So in essence what I am saying is this  IF gerry was in the apartment and no shutters were jemmied and MBM was where he left her how many minutes did it take for the abductor to get in and out with MBM  via a window?
A reconstructiotn would certainly show this up.
Was the reconstitution going to include an abduction then?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 10, 2019, 10:03:27 PM
Was the reconstitution going to include an abduction then?

That is what the resonstitution would have shown= when was this to have taken place exactly.  With gusts of wind and doors moving jemmied shutters being 'evidence' of an abductor it would have had to have happened when Gerry was in the apartment or had just left and was standing just outside as Jane walked past... AND would Jane not have noticed the shutters being open?

So, we need a reconstitution to see when this 'abductor' got in and out.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 10, 2019, 10:16:08 PM
That is what the resonstitution would have shown= when was this to have taken place exactly.  With gusts of wind and doors moving jemmied shutters being 'evidence' of an abductor it would have had to have happened when Gerry was in the apartment or had just left and was standing just outside as Jane walked past... AND would Jane not have noticed the shutters being open?

So, we need a reconstitution to see when this 'abductor' got in and out.
No we don’t, the Met have already established it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 10, 2019, 10:34:17 PM
No we don’t, the Met have already established it.

What did the met establish?  the abduction time?   8)--))
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 10, 2019, 10:53:13 PM
What did the met establish?  the abduction time?   8)--))
a window of opportunity for an abductor to strike.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 10, 2019, 11:17:57 PM
At the very least it would have been interesting to see Jez Wilkins trying to decide whether to go into the Tapas Restaurant, the Tapas Bar or the toilet. I don't know where the toilet was, and Jez wasn't very clear. It was either in the var, near the bar or in the pool area.
 https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY_BRIGET.htm
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS-ROGATORY.htm
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS.htm

In my opinion he went into the restaurant between 8:30 and 9:00 because that's what he told the PJ on 4th May when events were fresh in his mind.
Even if they couldn't get all the Tapas 9 to turn up maybe they could have done a reconstruction of Jez' walk to establish the time he interacted with Gerry on the street.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 10, 2019, 11:40:20 PM
Even if they couldn't get all the Tapas 9 to turn up maybe they could have done a reconstruction of Jez' walk to establish the time he interacted with Gerry on the street.
Would it be possible to do the reconstruction one person at a time?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 11, 2019, 07:52:04 AM
Well the MET must therefore be withholding information from Do Carmo because he states the PJ don’t know what happened to the child, suggesting they have established absolutely nothing.
Illogical.  The Met didn’t say they had established beyond any doubt that Madeleine had been abducted only that they had established a window of opportunity for an abductor to commit the deed.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on June 11, 2019, 07:52:51 AM
No we don’t, the Met have already established it.

The Met may have a theory, but it's not been proved to be correct as far as I know.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 11, 2019, 08:25:13 AM
So where is the logic in giving the MET a remit to only to investigate an abduction in that case?
Because based on all the known facts abduction is the only logical, plausible theory. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 11, 2019, 08:25:57 AM
The Met may have a theory, but it's not been proved to be correct as far as I know.
Did I say it had been?  There’s really no need to state the obvious.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on June 11, 2019, 08:28:43 AM
Illogical.  The Met didn’t say they had established beyond any doubt that Madeleine had been abducted only that they had established a window of opportunity for an abductor to commit the deed.

Based on an unverified timeline. Even the 'bumbling PJ' had more sense than to do that.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 11, 2019, 08:33:36 AM
Based on an unverified timeline. Even the 'bumbling PJ' had more sense than to do that.
How do you verify the timeline, pray tell?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 11, 2019, 08:34:38 AM
Based on the known facts it’s a theory that has turned out to be utter tosh in terms of results.
That statement is utter tosh.  A theory is not “utter tosh” because it has not been proven.  By your definition McCann involvement in hiding their daughter’s body is “utter tosh” too, do you agree?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 11, 2019, 08:47:10 AM
How do you verify the timeline, pray tell?
Place them all under caution, then ask the questions again.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on June 11, 2019, 08:54:26 AM
Hi little lady, I am in a beautiful Benbecula right now, but to my disappointment the Westford Inn is closed on a Monday so I’ll raise a glass in the Borrosdale Hotel for you tonight.

Cheers. It's the remotest place I've ever lived, with extreme weather in winter, but it won my heart. It's the only place I cried to be leaving when I caught the plane to Glasgow for the last time.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on June 11, 2019, 08:59:33 AM
You could hire Kevin Halligen if he were still alive and use his spy satellite images, would be one method.

There were no Spy Satellite Images.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 11, 2019, 09:00:21 AM
Absolutely not, the dog alerted to the possibility of Madeleine’s cadaver, they didn’t alert to abductors.
so the theory of parental involvement has been proven by the dogs has it?  What utter tosh!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 11, 2019, 09:01:39 AM
Place them all under caution, then ask the questions again.
and how would that yield different responses?  Does placing witnesses under caution eradicate memory failures?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 11, 2019, 09:02:43 AM
You could hire Kevin Halligen if he were still alive and use his spy satellite images, would be one method.
yes, yes you could. (&^&
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on June 11, 2019, 09:18:20 AM
How do you verify the timeline, pray tell?

That seems to have been a problem which Operation Grange ignored. They swallowed the T9 version hook line and sinker for some reason. Perhaps because they were told what crime to investigate.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 11, 2019, 09:37:11 AM
and how would that yield different responses?  Does placing witnesses under caution eradicate memory failures?
It's too late now, the opportunity is gone. But it would have allowed for further questioning of 'inaccuracies'.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: John on June 11, 2019, 09:41:14 AM
WARNING!

Some of the language that has been used recently towards members and moderators is totally unacceptable and has resulted in at least one temporary ban. Regular posters are very well aware of the forum rules so I shouldn't need to have to keep reminding of them. Everyone is entitled to voice their opinion here but it must be done respectfully, there can be no exceptions.

A challenge, let's try and get through today without the need for any moderation. TY   
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on June 11, 2019, 04:10:10 PM
The same could be said for child abductors in PDL.

Not the same thing.  We don't know if there were or were not child abductors in PdL
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on June 11, 2019, 04:12:07 PM
Memory failures, are you having a laugh? Gerry’s memory was allegedly working fine and dandy when he told the old bill him and his wife walked past the unlocked door, HE REMEMBERED they had left open for Mathew.

I know... YAWN.

John has asked for the unnecessary smart remarks to stop.  This includes you.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on June 11, 2019, 04:15:09 PM
Not the same thing.  We don't know if there were or were not child abductors in PdL

No other child has been abducted, so perhaps they were just there on holiday - if they were there at all.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on June 11, 2019, 04:19:23 PM
No other child has been abducted, so perhaps they were just there on holiday - if they were there at all.

No one was going to risk doing that again after all of the fuss and media attention.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on June 11, 2019, 04:20:23 PM
I am not being smart in the slightest I’m happy to say. VS knows exactly what I mean.

And you know exactly what I mean.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on June 11, 2019, 04:21:20 PM
No one was going to risk doing that again after all of the fuss and media attention.

On the contrary, just the time to do it while everyone's attention is diverted elsewhere

IMO - (at the request of Mr Pedant)
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on June 11, 2019, 04:33:11 PM
Was there another unreported child abduction in PDL that we have not been told about?

With the crime still undetermined,the infamous alleged abduction isn't even known to be true.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on June 11, 2019, 04:46:37 PM
On the contrary, just the time to do it while everyone's attention is diverted elsewhere

Nonsense.  I doubt that the abductor has got a death wish.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 11, 2019, 05:35:50 PM
It's too late now, the opportunity is gone. But it would have allowed for further questioning of 'inaccuracies'.
So, who are you arresting and interviewing under caution?  The Tapas group obviously, but what about the staff, the nannies, Jez Wilkins, Robert Murat, Pamela Fenn?  Their stories all need to mesh together to make a perfect timeline too you know.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 11, 2019, 05:41:34 PM
On the contrary, just the time to do it while everyone's attention is diverted elsewhere
Cite please.  How do you come by such knowledge?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on June 11, 2019, 05:44:43 PM
Cite please.  How do you come by such knowledge?

Don't be silly.

Shall I add IMO to my post 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 11, 2019, 05:55:13 PM
Don't be silly.

Shall I add IMO to my post
That is the option, and don't you call me silly.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 11, 2019, 06:01:42 PM
Why would you have to arrest Robert Murat and all the others? It was just the tapas mob who refused to cooperate. Robert Murat never exercised his right to shut his trap, it was only Katie.
I thought we attempting to construct a timeline?  Is this dependent only on then testimony of the Tapas group? 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 11, 2019, 06:10:02 PM
So, who are you arresting and interviewing under caution?  The Tapas group obviously, but what about the staff, the nannies, Jez Wilkins, Robert Murat, Pamela Fenn?  Their stories all need to mesh together to make a perfect timeline too you know.
You don't need to arrest anyone. You ask them to volunteer and the interview is conducted voluntarily. They can refuse, of course, but if they do give an interview, then you can subsequently interview them under caution as a suspect.
Pamela Fenn is deceased, last time I checked.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 11, 2019, 06:11:00 PM
Why would you have to arrest Robert Murat and all the others? It was just the tapas mob who refused to cooperate. Robert Murat never exercised his right to shut his trap, it was only Katie.
One of the rights an arguido had was to not answer a question.
Another of the rights they had was to lie.

They are not being asked to tell the truth and they are not giving their statement under oath.  It was the witness statements that were taken under oath.  (Liable to be charged with perjury if proven to be untruthful - something like that.)
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on June 11, 2019, 06:13:14 PM
One of the rights an arguido had was to not answer a question.
Another of the rights they had was to lie.

They are not being asked to tell the truth and they are not giving their statement under oath.  It was the witness statements that were taken under oath.  (Liable to be charged with perjury if proven to be untruthful - something like that.)

Wot?  Like Amaral do you mean?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 11, 2019, 06:13:31 PM
You don't need to arrest anyone. You ask them to volunteer and the interview is conducted voluntarily. They can refuse, of course, but if they do give an interview, then you can subsequently interview them under caution as a suspect.
Pamela Fenn is deed, last time I checked.
In Portugal you have to be constituted an arguido to be interviewed under caution.  So you’d make everyone who was a witness to events that night an arguido?  And once you’re an arguido you can refuse to answer any questions anyway.  . 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on June 11, 2019, 06:14:44 PM
In Portugal you have to be constituted an arguido to be interviewed under caution.  So you’d make everyone who was a witness to events that night an arguido?  And once you’re an arguido you can refuse to answer any questions anyway.  .

Absolutely.  End Of.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 11, 2019, 06:17:06 PM
Im asking why you’d have to arrest Robert Murat and all the others who did cooperate? Was Robert Murat eating dinner at the tapas?
It is important to know what everyone was doing that night.  Do they have an alibi and can that alibi be supported.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on June 11, 2019, 06:18:20 PM
It is important to know what everyone was doing that night.  Do they have an alibi and can that alibi be supported.


Everyone  - what the whole of PDL and environs ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 11, 2019, 06:19:42 PM
In Portugal you have to be constituted an arguido to be interviewed under caution.  So you’d make everyone who was a witness to events that night an arguido?  And once you’re an arguido you can refuse to answer any questions anyway.  .
They need to be interviewed as a witness ( that is under oath) but interviewed in depth.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 11, 2019, 06:20:29 PM
They need to be interviewed as a witness ( that is under oath) but interviewed in depth.
They were.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 11, 2019, 06:21:26 PM
In Portugal you have to be constituted an arguido to be interviewed under caution.  So you’d make everyone who was a witness to events that night an arguido?  And once you’re an arguido you can refuse to answer any questions anyway.  .
Yes, quite. I thought we were considering LP conducting a reconstruction / re-interview process.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 11, 2019, 06:22:21 PM

Everyone  - what the whole of PDL and environs ?
Door to door canvasing is common in police tactics.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 11, 2019, 06:22:38 PM
They were.
I think that's the issue. Not in depth enough. The discrepancies should have been revisited.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on June 11, 2019, 06:24:39 PM
Why would you have to arrest Robert Murat and all the others? It was just the tapas mob who refused to cooperate. Robert Murat never exercised his right to shut his trap, it was only Katie.

Kate McCann cooperated with the Police until they practically accused her of doing something to Madeleine.  Can you honestly tell me you wouldn't have listened to your lawyer if the Police had questioned you for 12 hours or so and tried to put words into your mouth such as 'you had a black out'  etc etc   
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on June 11, 2019, 06:26:08 PM
They need to be interviewed as a witness ( that is under oath) but interviewed in depth.

What happens if a Witness refuses to answer question?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 11, 2019, 06:29:16 PM
What happens if a Witness refuses to answer question?
That would be something like making themselves an arguido. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 11, 2019, 06:30:45 PM
Robert Murat has an alibi, he answered all his questions so I’m trying to find out why VS thinks he can help with their timeline. Any ideas?
Who was his alibi?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 11, 2019, 06:33:08 PM
Yes, quite. I thought we were considering LP conducting a reconstruction / re-interview process.
Were we?  I thought we were talking about the PJ’s reconstitution that never was.  I was questioning what a reconstitution would establish of use in progressing the search for Madeleine .  Nothing at all in my view. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 11, 2019, 06:34:07 PM
His mother.
And that’s good enough for you is it? 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on June 11, 2019, 06:34:38 PM
His mother.

A totally independent witness then?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on June 11, 2019, 06:35:42 PM
Pretty much like the Tapas friends then
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 11, 2019, 06:36:31 PM
Unless you can tell me a reason why it shouldn’t be?
Let’s put it this way: Gerry McCann had numerous alibis for 10pm, the time some people think he was carting a body off to a bin.  Do you accept his multiple alibis?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 11, 2019, 06:38:34 PM
NOPE!
Why not?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on June 11, 2019, 06:39:37 PM
Pretty much like the Tapas friends then

Indeed!
All of the friends lying?
Just one mother lying?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on June 11, 2019, 06:41:41 PM
That would be something like making themselves an arguido.

Job done.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on June 11, 2019, 06:42:31 PM
His mother.

Oh Really.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on June 11, 2019, 06:46:16 PM
Unless you can tell me a reason why it shouldn’t be?

You wouldn't accept one of the McCann's friends giving the McCann's an alibi   IMO
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 11, 2019, 06:46:45 PM
At the risk of making you yawn, because one, the files say him and his best friend gave the police two completely different versions of the last time they claim to have seen the child alive. And two, a cadaver dog was alerting to all things McCann.
That makes no sense.  Why are you denying Gerry his multiple alibis for 10pm on the evening of the 3rd May?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on June 11, 2019, 06:47:28 PM
At the risk of making you yawn, because one, the files say him and his best friend gave the police two completely different versions of the last time they claim to have seen the child alive. And two, a cadaver dog was alerting to all things McCann.

(3) Some witnesses gave an earlier time for the alarm being raised, 9.45, 9.50.  In which case, Gerry would have had ample time to make it to Rua da escola.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on June 11, 2019, 06:48:39 PM
(3) Some witnesses gave an earlier time for the alarm being raised, 9.45, 9.50.  In which case, Gerry would have had ample time to make it to Rua da escola.

Lies, all lies. They're lying I tell you  8(>((
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on June 11, 2019, 06:52:43 PM
(3) Some witnesses gave an earlier time for the alarm being raised, 9.45, 9.50.  In which case, Gerry would have had ample time to make it to Rua da escola.


Gerry was seen searching around the pool by a waiter.    Gerry must have been very quick to hide Madeleine [where?]  and then be  searching around the pool   IMO

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on June 11, 2019, 06:53:54 PM

Gerry was seen searching around the pool by a waiter.    Gerry must have been very quick to hide Madeleine [where?]  and then be  searching around the pool   IMO

The waiter was mistaken.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 11, 2019, 06:54:15 PM
(3) Some witnesses gave an earlier time for the alarm being raised, 9.45, 9.50.  In which case, Gerry would have had ample time to make it to Rua da escola.
Some?  Name them.  And it makes sense to you for the McCanns to shout “abduction “ and then go and hide the body, moments after raising the alarm by carrying the corpse through town?  Ooookaaaay.... (&^&
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 11, 2019, 06:54:34 PM
The waiter was mistaken.
@)(++(*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 11, 2019, 06:55:47 PM
If your daughter has been abducted, you’re damn right it makes no sense. But the files say what they say and the dogs barked like hell.
We we’re discussing Gerry’s numerous alibis.  The dog alerts do not invalidate them.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on June 11, 2019, 06:58:29 PM
If your daughter has been abducted, you’re damn right it makes no sense. But the files say what they say and the dogs barked like hell.


Martin Grime said on the Netflix documentary that Eddie could have been barking at some ancient smell.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 11, 2019, 07:00:18 PM
They do completely if it was Madeleine’s cadaver they were alerting to.
No they don’t, you’d just have to drop the idea that the Smiths saw Gerry because Gerry had alibis.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 11, 2019, 07:04:57 PM

Martin Grime said on the Netflix documentary that Eddie could have been barking at some ancient smell.
Squaring the circle of both dogs being broadly right is another issue - which we've debated at length.
So, an abduction.......and, upon investigation, some shenanigans went on in the apartment either then or in the past and nobody had an idea?
I digress.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on June 11, 2019, 07:06:24 PM
Some?  Name them.  And it makes sense to you for the McCanns to shout “abduction “ and then go and hide the body, moments after raising the alarm by carrying the corpse through town?  Ooookaaaay.... (&^&

Sigh, here we go again.

Matt Oldfield gave 9.50 & Fiona Payne, I believe, said Kate left the table at 9.45. She wasn't in the apartment for 15 mins according to her.

The McCanns didn't have access to a car, how else do you suppose they might relieve themselves of Maddie's body? On a Bus?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 11, 2019, 07:07:28 PM
Alibis that we CAN PROVE they were unwilling to clarify. There’s reason three.
Gerry’s alibis were all clarified in statements both in PdL and in the rogatory interviews, given voluntarily.  You have proven nothing except for your double standards.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Carana on June 11, 2019, 07:12:47 PM
They do completely if it was Madeleine’s cadaver they were alerting to.


"If".

Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.RD.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood to very small samples

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm

Does that exclude the potential scent of a toddler's wee in a box of clothes or not?



Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 11, 2019, 07:15:26 PM
Sigh, here we go again.

Matt Oldfield gave 9.50 & Fiona Payne, I believe, said Kate left the table at 9.45. She wasn't in the apartment for 15 mins according to her.

The McCanns didn't have access to a car, how else do you suppose they might relieve themselves of Maddie's body? On a Bus?
I don’t suppose they hid Madeleine’s body at all, you believe they did, by screaming “abduction” first and then picking up the body (from where?) to carry it bold as brass through the busiest part of town to a bin several minutes walk away, being witnessed doing so by numerous individuals and then making sure to appear on every telly screen in Europe the following evening appealing for information about the whereabouts of the daughter chucked in the bin the night before.  You think this is plausible?  Logical?  It’s not.   It’s a Grimm Fairytale.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 11, 2019, 07:17:35 PM
Of course I have proved nothing, the friends proved it in their written refusals to clarify Gerry’s alibis. I don’t do cites when I’m on vacation but you know that proof is there, as well as I do.
The friends provided detailed rogatories, they refused to take part in a PJ charade designed to try and catch them out.  Good on ‘em.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on June 11, 2019, 07:19:14 PM
The missing child alert was travelling through the town slower than Smithman, so anyone he encountered would be unaware that a child was missing.   IMO
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on June 11, 2019, 07:21:12 PM
Of course I have proved nothing, the friends proved it in their written refusals to clarify Gerry’s alibis. I don’t do cites when I’m on vacation but you know that proof is there, as well as I do.



www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JERONIMO-SALCEDAS.htm


That waiter saw Gerry searching around the pool area,   he then left the restaurant to see about 40 people already gathered to search.   So are you saying that Gerry then ran off to hide Madeleine's body with all those people around?    Or that Kate and Gerry carried her body out in a bin bag and no one asked what they were doing? 



Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 11, 2019, 07:22:32 PM
The missing child alert was travelling through the town slower than Smithman, so anyone he encountered would be unaware that a child was missing.   IMO
And Smithman controlled the speed at which the news got out did he?  Knew that no one would be aware of a missing child until well after he’d done the disposal?  Was confident he wouldn’t be spotted, or recognised if he was spotted? 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 11, 2019, 07:24:19 PM
Who am I to question anyone who says ‘good on them’ to people refusing to cooperate with an investigation into the disappearance of a three year old child.

Nice to know you care.
They were right not to cooperate with the stitching up of their friends.  The reconstitution was nothing whatsoever to do with finding out what happened to Madeleine.  Please stop trying to paint me as something I am not, it’s most disingenuous of you.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on June 11, 2019, 07:25:29 PM
I don’t suppose they hid Madeleine’s body at all, you believe they did, by screaming “abduction” first and then picking up the body (from where?) to carry it bold as brass through the busiest part of town to a bin several minutes walk away, being witnessed doing so by numerous individuals and then making sure to appear on every telly screen in Europe the following evening appealing for information about the whereabouts of the daughter chucked in the bin the night before.  You think this is plausible?  Logical?  It’s not.   It’s a Grimm Fairytale.

Of course it's plausible, & logical, just saying it isn't doesn't negate it's possibility.
It's all perfectly possible & ,as it happens, fits the known facts rather well.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on June 11, 2019, 07:25:45 PM
And Smithman controlled the speed at which the news got out did he?  Knew that no one would be aware of a missing child until well after he’d done the disposal?  Was confident he wouldn’t be spotted, or recognised if he was spotted?

According to the timeline, he was out and about before the alarm was raised with OC, so yes he was ahead of the news.
As to his level of confidence, I have no idea,.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 11, 2019, 08:02:39 PM
Of course it's plausible, & logical, just saying it isn't doesn't negate it's possibility.
It's all perfectly possible & ,as it happens, fits the known facts rather well.
It isn’t and it doesn’t.  If you watched a film with that as the plot you’d laugh at how far fetched it was.  IMO. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 11, 2019, 08:05:36 PM
According to the timeline, he was out and about before the alarm was raised with OC, so yes he was ahead of the news.
As to his level of confidence, I have no idea,.
Out and about BEFORE the alarm was raised is not what we were discussing which was Spam’s implausible theory. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 11, 2019, 08:08:10 PM
I fail to see how you could stitch anyone up who had the best lawyers in town and the truth on their side allegedly. It was you who said good on them, not me!
Then you must struggle to understand how miscarriages of justice ever happen, but they do.  Even if the stitch up job was unlikely to pay dividends you still wouldn’t want to take part in such a biased exercise that’s sole motive was to try and pin something on you.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 11, 2019, 08:08:47 PM
Is Colin Sutton wrong when he says whatever the truth, it has to be incredible?
Cite?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on June 11, 2019, 08:16:01 PM
Out and about BEFORE the alarm was raised is not what we were discussing which was Spam’s implausible theory.

Does Spammy say that the body was placed in the bin after the alarm was raised ?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on June 11, 2019, 08:19:33 PM
Does Spammy say that the body was placed in the bin after the alarm was raised ?

I do.

The alarm is raised, they all split up & search, Gerry is out searching alone, then there's the Smith's sighting.

Makes perfect sense to me.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on June 11, 2019, 08:23:10 PM
Who was the alarm raised with? What was the time delay before the alarm was implemented?
Plenty of time for Smithman to be out and about before any search procedure was implemented.

IMO
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on June 11, 2019, 08:25:28 PM
Listen to the podcast.

To be fair.
Which part of the podcast are you referring to.
Can you give a more exact cite or does one have to listen to thee entire podcast?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 11, 2019, 08:28:13 PM
There is no evidence of any attempt to stitch anyone up. It was an exercise to establish what actually did take place, at what time and in what location to allow the investigation to move on from there. Do you think Colin Sutton supports stitching anyone up?
Colin Sutton has some funny ideas IMO, I don’t set much store by any of the attention seeking stuff he trots out these days.  As for the rest, it’s purely subjective.  You say the reconstitution was about finding out what happened to Madeleine, I (and others) say it had no chance of furthering understanding about what happened.  Let’s face it, if the reconstitution had gone ahead and everything slipped seemlessly into place, a perfect window of opportunity for an abductor to strike established you’d still override it all with the dog alerts which in your opinion trump anything else.  True?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 11, 2019, 08:29:18 PM
I do.

The alarm is raised, they all split up & search, Gerry is out searching alone, then there's the Smith's sighting.

Makes perfect sense to me.
That does not surprise me.   *%87
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 11, 2019, 08:29:45 PM
To be fair.
Which part of the podcast are you referring to.
Can you give a more exact cite or does one have to listen to thee entire podcast?
I think it's the bit where Colin Sutton says whatever the truth, it has to be incredible.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 11, 2019, 08:31:01 PM
Listen to the podcast, or are you calling me a liar?
Of course I’m not calling you a liar, I just wondered what he said, precisely, but if it means I have to listen to 13 hours of waffle I think I’ll give it a miss, I’m not THAT interested!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on June 11, 2019, 08:33:56 PM
I think it's the bit where Colin Sutton says whatever the truth, it has to be incredible.

I know that!
But, shakes head in shame, I couldn't be bothered listening to any of the podcast!
I had hoped to have a quick link to that particular spot of the podcast but truly his opinion is of no consequence.
I MO.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 11, 2019, 08:35:12 PM
I think it's the bit where Colin Sutton says whatever the truth, it has to be incredible.
Is that exactly what he said, verbatim?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 11, 2019, 08:35:55 PM
Nope but it’s there, did you not listen to the entire podcast?
I haven’t listened to one second of it.  I hear it’s marvellous though.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on June 11, 2019, 08:38:09 PM
Nope but it’s there, did you not listen to the entire podcast?

Not one single second! 8)><(
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 11, 2019, 08:38:49 PM
I know that!
But, shakes head in shame, I couldn't be bothered listening to any of the podcast!
I had hoped to have a quick link to that particular spot of the podcast but truly his opinion is of no consequence.
I MO.
I mean, with all the time you have on your hands (joke), you should.
It's not a sceptic fest by any means. There's a lot of balance, in my opinion.

There's a specific part where Colin Sutton says 'whatever the truth, it has to be incredible', which is why Monkey says is Colin Sutton wrong when he says whatever the truth, it has to be incredible?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on June 11, 2019, 08:43:25 PM


www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JERONIMO-SALCEDAS.htm


That waiter saw Gerry searching around the pool area,   he then left the restaurant to see about 40 people already gathered to search.   So are you saying that Gerry then ran off to hide Madeleine's body with all those people around?    Or that Kate and Gerry carried her body out in a bin bag and no one asked what they were doing?

Gerry doesn't say he went there. David said he did though.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 11, 2019, 08:43:56 PM
Is that exactly what he said, verbatim?
Don't know. I did listen to the whole thing, but I was on the tube mostly.
But Monkey does state, and I quote: Colin Sutton says whatever the truth, it has to be incredible.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on June 11, 2019, 08:51:33 PM
I mean, with all the time you have on your hands (joke), you should.
It's not a sceptic fest by any means. There's a lot of balance, in my opinion.

There's a specific part where Colin Sutton says 'whatever the truth, it has to be incredible', which is why Monkey says is Colin Sutton wrong when he says whatever the truth, it has to be incredible?

Being retired does not mean that I have the time to listen to a podcast which will have no bearing on the final outcome on whatever happened to a missing little girl.
A book by the same journalist may have been of interest.
What does he mean by the truth being incredible?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on June 11, 2019, 08:52:19 PM
No it was slightly more detailed but it meant exactly whatever  happened involved an incredible set of circumstances.

Did he detail the set of circumstances?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on June 11, 2019, 08:58:34 PM
Yes, he detailed both sets of incredible circumstances.

Can you post a precis of  both of those incredible circumstances.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 11, 2019, 09:00:24 PM
Then that is where the cite is. Too bad if you want it then, innit.
I believe we are not allowed to proffer as a cite “the files”, similarly I don’t think it’s reasonable to cite the (13 hour) podcast.  But I’ not going to keep demanding you supply the cite, you have a vacation to be enjoying...  8((()*/
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on June 11, 2019, 09:01:58 PM
I believe we are not allowed to proffer as a cite “the files”, similarly I don’t think it’s reasonable to cite the (13 hour) podcast.  But I’ not going to keep demanding you supply the cite, you have a vacation to be enjoying...  8((()*/

And yet once again!
Pity the demands for cites are not universally demanded.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 11, 2019, 09:05:42 PM
And yet once again!
Pity the demands for cites are not universally demanded.
Just remember next time you’re asked for a cite just say “Kate’s book” or “The Files”, or “a video on youtube” you’ll be fine.  8((()*/
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 11, 2019, 09:26:50 PM
You rejected the idea that I would lie about it. That will do for me. I may listen to them tomorrow on my journey to Castlebay. If I do I’ll provide you the details.

Night night little lady!
Less of the “little lady” schtick if you don’t mind.  Have a good evening and trip to Castlebay, hope it’s not deluging there like it is here...  8(8-))
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on June 11, 2019, 09:40:42 PM
I can do a lots of things, like tell you where to look if you are that interested to hear them. You’ll enjoy them, they’re a great listen.

As I'm one of the "elderly ladies" referred to by Faith, I would prefer taking out my crochet and crochet an antimacassar while listening to a podcast of the Archers.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on June 11, 2019, 09:43:19 PM
Just remember next time you’re asked for a cite just say “Kate’s book” or “The Files”, or “a video on youtube” you’ll be fine.  8((()*/

Tut tut!
It's Kate's book"
How could you forget!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on June 11, 2019, 09:46:47 PM
Is that the one that could have won the booker prize for fiction - but didn't?   @)(++(*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 11, 2019, 09:56:59 PM
As I'm one of the "elderly ladies" referred to by Faith, I would prefer taking out my crochet and crochet an antimacassar while listening to a podcast of the Archers.
A what now?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on June 11, 2019, 09:59:16 PM
A what now?
A what now what?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 11, 2019, 10:01:29 PM
A what now what?
Antimacassar.
*just looked, it's a lacey doily that goes on your chair. Who knew? Learning knew stuff here all the time, including Victorian furniture adornments.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on June 11, 2019, 10:07:56 PM
Antimacassar

An antimacassar was a bit of cloth usually with some crochet round the edging which was put on the back of chairs years ago.
I can remember some elderly aunts having them.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on June 11, 2019, 10:10:19 PM
Antimacassar.
*just looked, it's a lacey doily that goes on your chair. Who knew? Learning knew stuff here all the time, including Victorian furniture adornments.

I'm retired but there are absolutely none in my home, nor were there any my parent's home!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 11, 2019, 10:13:11 PM
I'm retired but there are absolutely none in my home, nor were there any my parent's home!
Yeh, yeh, I believe you.......
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on June 11, 2019, 10:34:57 PM
Antimacassar.
*just looked, it's a lacey doily that goes on your chair. Who knew? Learning knew stuff here all the time, including Victorian furniture adornments.

Men used hair oils, which left greasy marks on the furniture. Hence a washable cover.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 12, 2019, 12:42:16 AM
They do completely if it was Madeleine’s cadaver they were alerting to.
The operative word is "IF".
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 12, 2019, 07:59:51 AM
When the missing child’s father and his best friend have given police two completely different versions of the last time they claim to have seen the child alive, and the mother has refused to answer police questions, there is little IF about what and to who the dogs were alerting to IMO. ALIVE Madeleine McCann is the operative word in proving IF I am wrong.
Madeleine being dead does not mean the parents did it, nor does it mean the dogs alerted to her body, you do realise that don’t you?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on June 12, 2019, 08:06:31 AM
Who else had died wearing Kate’s trousers and matching top? Another one of her dead patients?

This is getting boring.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on June 12, 2019, 08:10:07 AM
No one is forcing you to join in to our boring conversation. Boring isn’t against the rules is it?

I have to read it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 12, 2019, 08:12:13 AM
I have to read it.
Read it with an impartial stance. Might liven it up a bit.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 12, 2019, 08:12:52 AM
No one is forcing you to join in to our boring conversation. Boring isn’t against the rules is it?
Constant repetition probably is. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 12, 2019, 08:14:14 AM
Read it with an impartial stance. Might liven it up a bit.
It doesn’t matter how you read it or how many times, the logic is still faulty.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on June 12, 2019, 08:18:27 AM
Gerry doesn't say he went there. David said he did though.


Did Gerry mention he looked under cars?    A Nanny said he did.    I doubt whether the waiter got David and Gerry mixed up,   David wears glasses Gerry doesn't.    IMO
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on June 12, 2019, 08:18:45 AM
Constant repetition probably is.

Definitely is.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on June 12, 2019, 08:20:08 AM
You choose to read it, surely no one forced to read it? I don’t think it’s boring, I happen to believe it’s a very appropriate response to VS’s question.

Wouldn't you love it if Moderators didn't read comments.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 12, 2019, 08:21:29 AM
If you believe you post original material that has not been posted over and over again I have to beg to differ.
The boring old cadaver dog alerts, eh.
I don’t constantly repeat the same old mantra day in day out, that is a fact.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on June 12, 2019, 08:22:51 AM
Who else had died wearing Kate’s trousers and matching top? Another one of her dead patients?


Kate's trousers the ones she wore to appeal to the abductor.    Did she wash them after she was in contact with Madeleine's dead body?   I don't think so.    Would you wear a pair of trousers unwashed a few days later that you had worn to hide your childs body?    IMO
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on June 12, 2019, 08:26:09 AM
Its immaterial to me. I’m a good boy whose comments seldom need moderation.

Glad to hear it.  I can never remember.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 12, 2019, 08:29:30 AM
Oh yes you do IMO. The same old the sun shines out of Kate and Gerry’s rear end drivel day after day.
Now that is not only insulting but incorrect, please give me some examples from yesterday, or anytime in the last week, or retract.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on June 12, 2019, 08:29:39 AM
Glad to hear it.  I can never remember.

This is probably the funniest thing I have ever said,
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 12, 2019, 08:30:09 AM
It doesn’t matter how you read it or how many times, the logic is still faulty.
I don't see it that way. I'm not a big fan of remarkable coincidences being levered in to explain things.
The problem we will always have here is that, irrespective of its veracity, the 'DNA' and EVRD dog data will always be dismissed / supported dependent upon your leaning, which is not scientific at all.
Another non-scientific way of viewing this data, as I have, is to take it even as really flimsy, unsubstantiated data. I still think, even in this state, a worse case state, it has to be explained. And a remarkable coincidence doesn't hack it for me.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 12, 2019, 08:33:27 AM
I don't see it that way. I'm not a big fan of remarkable coincidences being levered in to explain things.
The problem we will always have here is that, irrespective of its veracity, the 'DNA' and EVRD dog data will always be dismissed / supported dependent upon your leaning, which is not scientific at all.
Another non-scientific way of viewing this data, as I have, is to take it even as really flimsy, unsubstantiated data. I still think, even in this state, a worse case state, it has to be explained. And a remarkable coincidence doesn't hack it for me.
I’m sorry but the logic IS faulty.  How can discrepancies in Gerry’s statement about which door he used to gain entry to the apartment validate the dog alerts and prove Madeleine died in the apartment, as far as CM is concerned?  Illogical General.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 12, 2019, 08:40:31 AM
I’m sorry but the logic IS faulty.  How can discrepancies in Gerry’s statement about which door he used to gain entry to the apartment validate the dog alerts and prove Madeleine died in the apartment, as far as CM is concerned?  Illogical General.
That's fine. Illogical that statement may or may not be.
But the very fact that we have those two factors present is remarkable in itself, which is my point.
We have to rely on some incredible odds to explain the factors present - the really unreliable EVRD / DNA evidence that no court in the world would uphold - worse case, couple with the main protagonist giving two disparate accounts of the last time he saw his daughter alive - the most profound moment of his life is not etched in to his soul?
And I use the same quantification to couple together other inexplicable elements.

I can do all of this with impunity because Davel is on a sabbatical and can't rip me to shreds. When he's back I'll scuttle off back in to my sangar, MP5 on knee, made ready, safety on.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 12, 2019, 09:10:30 AM
No one is forcing you to join in to our boring conversation. Boring isn’t against the rules is it?
I'm afraid not.  I'm wondering how to reply, maybe I need a Berocca  first.   I'm still drained.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 12, 2019, 03:02:34 PM
That's fine. Illogical that statement may or may not be.
But the very fact that we have those two factors present is remarkable in itself, which is my point.
We have to rely on some incredible odds to explain the factors present - the really unreliable EVRD / DNA evidence that no court in the world would uphold - worse case, couple with the main protagonist giving two disparate accounts of the last time he saw his daughter alive - the most profound moment of his life is not etched in to his soul?
And I use the same quantification to couple together other inexplicable elements.

I can do all of this with impunity because Davel is on a sabbatical and can't rip me to shreds. When he's back I'll scuttle off back in to my sangar, MP5 on knee, made ready, safety on.
What incredible odds?  Have you calculated them?  “Man corrects initial statement regarding which door he gained entry to apartment” coupled with “cadaver dog alerts to places in apartment the man is known to have been two months earlier”.   What would you calculate the odds at of a suspect admitting to a murder and a cadaver dog alerting to the places where the suspect said the murders took place, but the suspect was lying and he actually murdered no one at all?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 12, 2019, 06:04:16 PM
You have 3/1 that the only couple not locking their door get their child abducted, going on to 200/1 that a dog that had never given a false positive alert, going on to 11/1 because there were twelve of them, all going on to 2/1 that it was the one child not confined to a cot that done the vanishing act.

Let’s get the calculator out. A Ł1 bet gives us a return of, wait for it, Ł17,600.

That gives us odds of 17599/1 that Madeleine was abducted.
Bearing in mind I have not factored in the odds of how many mothers of abducted children refuse to tell the old bill the truth.

There’s more chance of me winning the lottery than Madeleine being abducted IMO.
The chance of you winning the national lottery is something like 1 in 45 million so by your calcs you’re very much more likely to have your children abducted, sorry to say.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on June 12, 2019, 06:05:05 PM
You have 3/1 that the only couple not locking their door get their child abducted, going on to 200/1 that a dog that had never given a false positive alert, going on to 11/1 because there were twelve of them, all going on to 2/1 that it was the one child not confined to a cot that done the vanishing act.

Let’s get the calculator out. A Ł1 bet gives us a return of, wait for it, Ł17,600.

That gives us odds of 17599/1 that Madeleine was abducted.
Bearing in mind I have not factored in the odds of how many mothers of abducted children refuse to tell the old bill the truth.

There’s more chance of me winning the lottery than Madeleine being abducted IMO.


I wouldn't bet on it.    Two Police forces are looking for an abductor    IMO
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Carana on June 12, 2019, 06:06:25 PM
You have 3/1 that the only couple not locking their door get their child abducted, going on to 200/1 that a dog that had never given a false positive alert, going on to 11/1 because there were twelve of them, all going on to 2/1 that it was the one child not confined to a cot that done the vanishing act.

Let’s get the calculator out. A Ł1 bet gives us a return of, wait for it, Ł17,600.

That gives us odds of 17599/1 that Madeleine was abducted.
Bearing in mind I have not factored in the odds of how many mothers of abducted children refuse to tell the old bill the truth.

There’s more chance of me winning the lottery than Madeleine being abducted IMO.

Are you saying that in one of every three cases of parents not locking a door a child is abducted?

Or shouldn't one take that seriously?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 12, 2019, 06:09:01 PM
You will find that is slightly less odds than 17599 x the number of mothers of abducted children who refuse to tell the old bill the truth.
Nonsensical.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Carana on June 12, 2019, 06:28:22 PM
Absolutely not. Those are the odds, I didn’t make them. And how many mothers of abducted children do tell the old bill the truth? Times that with 17599.

Any bookie will agree.

Where did this "info" originate?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on June 12, 2019, 06:30:18 PM

I wouldn't bet on it.    Two Police forces are looking for an abductor    IMO


Pedro Do Carmo isn't of that opinion.They have to be prepared for different scenarios were his words if I recall.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Carana on June 12, 2019, 06:51:49 PM
The name is Cheeky Monkey, not John Parrot.

Which doesn't answer my question...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 12, 2019, 06:55:59 PM
Absolutely not. Those are the odds, I didn’t make them. And how many mothers of abducted children do tell the old bill the truth? Times that with 17599.

Any bookie will agree.
So in your opinion the odds of the McCanns NOT being guilty are somewhat smaller than 1 in 45 million?   (&^&
PS: what about Gerry?  Did he tell the Old Bill the truth or was it just Kate who didn’t...?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 12, 2019, 07:00:39 PM
The odds are those for Madeleine being abducted. That’s not anyone’s opinion.
What are the odds for “woke and wandered” and “parents hid the body”? *%87
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 12, 2019, 07:12:02 PM
Sorry, what I really meant was, we have to listen to the same old, you ‘hate the way social media has facilitated the abuse of Gerry and Kate McCann, and found it hard to fathom the insensitivity of all those who have posted accusations about them’ mantra day after day.

I have duly corrected my error. Hopefully that cheers you up.
Is that a first for the forum that an apology and a correction has been admitted to in the one post?  Well even if it isn't the first time, congratulations Cheeky Monkey.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 12, 2019, 07:15:55 PM
You have 3/1 that the only couple not locking their door get their child abducted, going on to 200/1 that a dog that had never given a false positive alert, going on to 11/1 because there were twelve of them, all going on to 2/1 that it was the one child not confined to a cot that done the vanishing act.

Let’s get the calculator out. A Ł1 bet gives us a return of, wait for it, Ł17,600.

That gives us odds of 17599/1 that Madeleine was abducted.
Bearing in mind I have not factored in the odds of how many mothers of abducted children do tell the old bill the truth.

There’s more chance of me winning the lottery than Madeleine being abducted IMO.
You wold still have to buy millions of tickets per draw to give yourself odds of 17600:1 of winning the lottery.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 12, 2019, 07:22:16 PM
The odds for parents hid the body are 1/17599 times the number of mothers who do tell the old bill the truth. Simple! Woke and wandered isn’t in the betting.
Stats have never been a strong point for me.  I'd guest your calculation is wrong but don't ask me to prove it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 12, 2019, 07:26:12 PM
The odds for parents hid the body are 1/17599 times the number of mothers who do tell the old bill the truth. Simple! Woke and wandered isn’t in the betting.
Simple is the right word.  *%87
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 12, 2019, 07:39:06 PM
Im off for dinner Rob but read the original post and tell me where the stats are wrong?
Original post http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10605.msg535424#msg535424

You seem to have multiplied a whole mishmash of ratios together to give some figure that has no real meaning IMO.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 12, 2019, 07:49:14 PM
Original post http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10605.msg535424#msg535424

You seem to have multiplied a whole mishmash of ratios together to give some figure that has no real meaning IMO.
According to Cheeky Momkey there is a less than 1 in 45 million chance that Madleleine was abducted and the odds on woke and wandered are incalculable.  Someone better tell the police to just arrest and charge them and be done with it. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 12, 2019, 09:28:08 PM
No problems with the statistical odds to point out I see? Ain’t that a surprise.

Night night, don’t let the abductors bite.
So if I were as tasteless as you and went to the bookies, and put a quid on an abductor being found guilty of Madeleines’s disappearance I’d stand to win Ł45 million? 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 12, 2019, 09:36:25 PM
Could you explain how you managed to come by that exact figure? The odds say, 17,599/1 going on to the number of mothers of abducted children who told the old bill the truth. How many mothers is that to reach Ł45,000,000?

You don’t need to go anywhere near a bookies to calculate those statistical odds.
I pointed out that your likelihood of winning the lottery was one in 45 million, you said Madeleine being abducted was even less likely, so Ł45 million was a conservative estimate.  If I wanted to bet on it are these the odds I would get at the bookies? 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 12, 2019, 10:46:23 PM
’You have 3/1 that the only couple not locking their door get their child abducted, going on to 200/1 that a dog that had never given a false positive alert, going on to 11/1 because there were twelve of them, all going on to 2/1 that it was the one child not confined to a cot that done the vanishing act.’

1. Four families go on holiday Rob and Jimmy decides to abduct one of their children, the odds of him abducting one of their children from the one unlocked apartment are 3/1 and you do the same with all the other figures. The dogs 200/1 because they had never given a false positive alert in 200 case searches. 11/1 because the dogs gave 12 separate alerts. 2/1 because the one child of the three who was not confined to a cot got abducted in the statistical odds. Then put all those odds together to calculate the odds. There is nothing mishmashed about those statistical odds., that’s how it works.

If you ever go to Vegas Rob, please play with small chips. I fear the odds may be against you.

As I see it if Jimmy came into the apartment through an unlocked door, 3/1, that makes sense if he was aware that the other three apartments were unlocked.  How did he discover that?

And if he came in and actually took a living child there should be no cadaver odours in the apartment at all.
So how do you justify multiplying those two together.

I did go to Las Vegas but I wasn't prepared to lose money. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 12, 2019, 10:50:04 PM
I didn’t give an estimate, I didn’t have to. I used exact figures using a tried and tested method of calculation. I don’t have an exact figure for mothers of abducted children but I should imagine almost everyone of them agreed to tell the old bill the truth. It would be a big number though with which to multiply  by 17,599.
Do you have any experience in using your method of calculating odds in real life.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 12, 2019, 11:03:26 PM
’You have 3/1 that the only couple not locking their door get their child abducted, going on to 200/1 that a dog that had never given a false positive alert, going on to 11/1 because there were twelve of them, all going on to 2/1 that it was the one child not confined to a cot that done the vanishing act.’

1. Four families go on holiday Rob and Jimmy decides to abduct one of their children, the odds of him abducting one of their children from the one unlocked apartment are 3/1 and you do the same with all the other figures. The dogs 200/1 because they had never given a false positive alert in 200 case searches. 11/1 because the dogs gave 12 separate alerts. 2/1 because the one child of the three who was not confined to a cot got abducted in the statistical odds. Then put all those odds together to calculate the odds. There is nothing mishmashed about those statistical odds., that’s how it works.

If you ever go to Vegas Rob, please play with small chips. I fear the odds may be against you.

Did Jimmy know the room numbers of the Tapas 9?  How did he get to know that?

OK each of the lower level rooms had two doors per apartment but the Payne's apartment had just the one door.

so over the 4 apartments there were 7 doors potentially unlocked.  To randomly select an unlocked door was 1 in 7.

If he randomly selected an apartment (1 in 4) and checked if it was unlocked for 3 out of the 4 apartments he'd have to walk around the building to check both doors.

IMO the abductor might do some surveillance and predetermine which apartment had an unlocked door.

But that too only applies if they had no particular desire to select a specific child.  What is the driving motivation? Was it looks or an age range?  Or was it a vendetta against a specific person/family?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 12, 2019, 11:20:45 PM
I didn’t give an estimate, I didn’t have to. I used exact figures using a tried and tested method of calculation. I don’t have an exact figure for mothers of abducted children but I should imagine almost everyone of them agreed to tell the old bill the truth. It would be a big number though with which to multiply  by 17,599.
Do you have a list of all the proven lies Kate told the police?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 12, 2019, 11:35:53 PM
I didn’t give an estimate, I didn’t have to. I used exact figures using a tried and tested method of calculation. I don’t have an exact figure for mothers of abducted children but I should imagine almost everyone of them agreed to tell the old bill the truth. It would be a big number though with which to multiply  by 17,599.
You can't use guesstimates in the calculations of odds.  "I don’t have an exact figure for mothers of abducted children but I should imagine almost ...."  that must be a classic example showing wording of a guesstimate.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 13, 2019, 07:18:50 AM
No, but I do have a list of 48 questions she refused to answer.
OK, I’ll swallow my principles and bet a Ł1 with you that it’s proven Madeleine was abducted if you’ll agree to pay out that n the odds you’ve calculated. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 13, 2019, 07:45:03 AM
I didn’t offer to bet anyone. You asked the odds and I have given you the odds based on the figures we do know. I’d never be that tasteless, shame on you.
@)(++(* you did offer to bet with Davel.   Seems you’re now not prepared to put your money where your mouth is.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 13, 2019, 07:58:19 AM
That was an even money bet on who would be forced to give evidence in the trial of any abductor. Do try to stick to the facts please. 8)--))
Whatever, you’re talking rubbish.  IMO. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 13, 2019, 08:25:57 AM
Why not be more specific?
I have been.  You claim that the likelihood that Madeleine was abducted in 1 in 45 million plus.  That is arrant nonsense.  For a start no police force pursues theories that only have a one in 45 million chance of being correct.  This is a silly discussion getting us nowhere.  You can make up odds until you’re blue in the face, and believe what you want, it’s no skin off my nose.  Meanwhile I suggest you nip down the bookies and see what odds they give you.  Chances are it won’t be the odds you’ve calculated. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 13, 2019, 08:46:29 AM
I have been.  You claim that the likelihood that Madeleine was abducted in 1 in 45 million plus.  That is arrant nonsense.  For a start no police force pursues theories that only have a one in 45 million chance of being correct.  This is a silly discussion getting us nowhere.  You can make up odds until you’re blue in the face, and believe what you want, it’s no skin off my nose.  Meanwhile I suggest you nip down the bookies and see what odds they give you.  Chances are it won’t be the odds you’ve calculated.
Now that seems like a good idea.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on June 13, 2019, 08:58:18 AM
Statistically speaking when a child of Madeleine's age disappears the most likely perpetrators are those close to her; family and friends.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 13, 2019, 09:05:13 AM
Statistically speaking when a child of Madeleine's age disappears the most likely perpetrators are those close to her; family and friends.
It seems easier to point the finger at the family rather than the friends.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on June 13, 2019, 09:07:54 AM
Statistically speaking when a child of Madeleine's age disappears the most likely perpetrators are those close to her; family and friends.

But there are many, many cases when the perpetrators were not family or friends!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 13, 2019, 09:07:58 AM
OK I have time to kill on the ferry home, so let’s begin.


1. Four couples on holiday one of whom have their child abducted gives us odds that it will be the McCann family of three to one. A statistical fact.
2. After having their child abducted a cadaver dog which has never given a false positive alert in 200 case searches alerts to the McCanns property which gives us odds of two hundred to one. Statistical fact number two.
3. The dog gives 12 separate alerts which gives us odds of eleven to one that they were false alerts given it had never given a false one before hand. Statistical fact number three.
4. Of the three children abducted it,s the one not confined to a cot giving us odds of two to one.  Statistical fact number four.

Calculating those odds is easy peasy. Then you have to multiply those odds by the number of mothers of children who have been abducted who DID answer police questions because we know Kate refused to do so despite the fact her daughter had been abducted.

I have missed out how many fathers of abducted children gave police two completely different versions of the last time they claim to have seen their child alive.


The odds I am afraid are very much against Madeleine having been abducted, statistically speaking.
The Met disagrees with your mathematics. 
Perhaps you’d like to calculate the odds of a nearly 4 year old child coming to harm after being left asleep in a holiday apartment and on discovery of the body it is then hidden by the father never to be found again in 12 plus years? 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 13, 2019, 09:09:11 AM
Statistically speaking when a child of Madeleine's age disappears the most likely perpetrators are those close to her; family and friends.
Tell that to the parents of every child that was ever abducted and murdered by a stranger, I’m sure it will make all the difference. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 13, 2019, 09:09:42 AM
OK I have time to kill on the ferry home, so let’s begin.


1. Four couples on holiday one of whom have their child abducted gives us odds that it will be the McCann family of three to one. A statistical fact.
2. After having their child abducted a cadaver dog which has never given a false positive alert in 200 case searches alerts to the McCanns property which gives us odds of two hundred to one. Statistical fact number two.
3. The dog gives 12 separate alerts which gives us odds of eleven to one that they were false alerts given it had never given a false one before hand. Statistical fact number three.
4. Of the three children abducted it,s the one not confined to a cot giving us odds of two to one.  Statistical fact number four.

Calculating those odds is easy peasy. Then you have to multiply those odds by the number of mothers of children who have been abducted who DID answer police questions because we know Kate refused to do so despite the fact her daughter had been abducted.

I have missed out how many fathers of abducted children gave police two completely different versions of the last time they claim to have seen their child alive.


The odds I am afraid are very much against Madeleine having been abducted, statistically speaking.
What gets me is why you include the other Tapas 9 families in your calculations.  Why not include all the families in the town of PdL?  If there was an abductor in town he could select from all the children in the town. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 13, 2019, 09:10:39 AM
What gets me is why you include the other Tapas 9 families in your calculations.  Why not include all the families in the town of PdL?  If there was an abductor in town he could select from all the children in the town.
I don’t get why the sleeping arrangements have any bearing on the odds either...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 13, 2019, 09:21:20 AM
I don’t get why the sleeping arrangements have any bearing on the odds either...
"4. Of the three children abducted it,s the one not confined to a cot giving us odds of two to one.  Statistical fact number four."

That is true in itself, two were in a cot and the older one was in a bed, but does that increase or decrease the chances of her being abducted.  Was it a matter of difficulty?

The sleeping arrangement would have some bearing on what happened but it won't be as simple as being in a bed or a cot.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 13, 2019, 09:26:59 AM
Excuse me, who mentioned sleeping arrangements? There were four families in the group, one of whom claim to have their child abducted. The odds on it being the McCanns are  three to one. Fact.
Who?  You did!  "4. Of the three children abducted it,s the one not confined to a cot giving us odds of two to one.  Statistical fact number four."


2/1 to one are the statistical odds pure and simple.
 

If the abductor is in the room and has a choice of any of the three kids.   But what about if it was a targeted abduction?

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 13, 2019, 09:29:05 AM
You asked the odds and I have taken the trouble to point them out to you.

The MET have given us nothing to prove the statistics in this case are wrong. Fact number five.
Funny how you refuse to apply your statistical analysis to the parents dunnit scenario.  Any reason for that?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on June 13, 2019, 09:30:04 AM
Excuse me, who mentioned sleeping arrangements? There were four families in the group, one of whom claim to have their child abducted. The odds on it being the McCanns are  three to one. Fact.

They had been observing the McCann family,  it's obvious.   How else would they know the children had been left alone?  They watched the checking of the children through the week,  how they went up to the patio doors,  they knew they must be open as they are locked from the inside.

Can you tell me the odds on a child being taken from her bath?   How did the abductor know the mother had left the child alone?

IMO
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 13, 2019, 09:34:36 AM
2/1 to one are the statistical odds pure and simple.
Why haven’t you multiplied your odds by the odds of the Gaspar Statement and the odds of the  twins not waking up on the night and the odds of the  “jemmied shutter” and the odds of the  “impossibility” of JT walking past GMc and JW, and the odds of thr Smithman sighting?  See if  you can’t push it up to several billion to one?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 13, 2019, 09:41:06 AM
If you have exact figures for those odds I will be happy to factor them in?
Why should I supply the odds?  You’re the one making up odds as you go along, you do it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on June 13, 2019, 09:41:44 AM
If you have proof that they were being watched we can deduct those odds?

Proof please?

Check out the statements of those who saw 5a being watched.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 13, 2019, 09:50:26 AM
So you don’t have those odds, we’ll just have to stick with the ones we do have in that case.   8((()*/
LOL, now let’s have the odds for parental involvement if you please, so we can compare.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on June 13, 2019, 09:51:59 AM
OK I have time to kill on the ferry home, so let’s begin.


1. Four couples on holiday one of whom have their child abducted gives us odds that it will be the McCann family of three to one. A statistical fact.
2. After having their child abducted a cadaver dog which has never given a false positive alert in 200 case searches alerts to the McCanns property which gives us odds of two hundred to one. Statistical fact number two.
3. The dog gives 12 separate alerts which gives us odds of eleven to one that they were false alerts given it had never given a false one before hand. Statistical fact number three.
4. Of the three children abducted it,s the one not confined to a cot giving us odds of two to one.  Statistical fact number four.

Calculating those odds is easy peasy. Then you have to multiply those odds by the number of mothers of children who have been abducted who DID answer police questions because we know Kate refused to do so despite the fact her daughter had been abducted.

I have missed out how many fathers of abducted children gave police two completely different versions of the last time they claim to have seen their child alive.


The odds I am afraid are very much against Madeleine having been abducted, statistically speaking.

It only takes one.  I don't know what that would do to the odds, but it would scupper everything else.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on June 13, 2019, 09:54:36 AM
Statistically speaking when a child of Madeleine's age disappears the most likely perpetrators are those close to her; family and friends.

Statistically speaking, where would it leave the statistics if just one child is abducted from her bed by a stranger, and then proved to have been?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on June 13, 2019, 09:55:31 AM
So you don’t have proof, we’ll just have to leave those odds in that case.



It's funny when posters think they know better than the Police,  read the statements.  IMO



Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on June 13, 2019, 10:03:02 AM

This is hilarious.  Statistics always involve the odd one out.  Otherwise there wouldn't be any statistics.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 13, 2019, 10:22:42 AM
For the second time, if the odds FOR abduction are 17599/1 x the number of mothers of abducted children who do answer police questions. The odds FOR parental involvement are 1/17599 x the number of mothers of abducted children who do answer police questions.

That means you’d have to put Ł17599 plus the number of mothers to win Ł1.

That’s why I am not prepared to put my money where my mouth is at those odds.

If you fancy an even money bet now you have swallowed your principles, name your price?
I haven't swallowed my principles - I don't place bets on the outcome of missing children cases.  But I'll bung you a tenner to stop boring us silly with your daft mantras.   8((()*/
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 13, 2019, 10:37:40 AM
Another suggestion would be for YOU to stop asking questions that require boring mantras to answer.
OK, done. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on June 13, 2019, 10:40:34 AM
So you don’t have proof, we’ll just have to leave those odds in that case.

There is proof,  men were seen watching the balcony of 5a,  a child saw a man when she was walking to the bus stop for the school bus,  in the alleyway by 5a he was staring up at the balcony,  again when she was walking home he was there staring up at the balcony.   He had a pencil in his pocket,  more than likely writing down when they left and returned.   There were a pile of cigarette buts on the balcony of a vacant apartment opposite the McCann's, they just cleared them away when they could have found DNA on them.

You can't produce odds as many of these abductions are random,  wrong place wrong time,  just like the McCann's.   In the case of the child taken from her bath,  man passing seeing child in bath alone takes child,  how can you work out that happening again and again and again?   IMO
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on June 13, 2019, 10:45:15 AM
There is proof,  men were seen watching the balcony of 5a,  a child saw a man when she was walking to the bus stop for the school bus,  in the alleyway by 5a he was staring up at the balcony,  again when she was walking home he was there staring up at the balcony.  He had a pencil in his pocket,  more than likely writing down when they left and returned.   There were a pile of cigarette buts on the balcony of a vacant apartment opposite the McCann's, they just cleared them away when they could have found DNA on them.

You can't produce odds as many of these abductions are random,  wrong place wrong time,  just like the McCann's.   In the case of the child taken from her bath,  man passing seeing child in bath alone takes child,  how can you work out that happening again and again and again?   IMO


How shocking ! Definitely the perp.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on June 13, 2019, 10:46:20 AM
Give us a break ey, people standing in the street of a holiday resort is NOT proof that anyone was watching the McCanns.

The Police took it seriously.   So you know better than the Police do you?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 13, 2019, 10:48:16 AM

How shocking ! Definitely the perp.
Yeah, obviously all sightings of men lurking around the apartment of a child that subsequently went missing days or hours later should be dismissed without further thought or investigation.  The odds are clear.  The chances that Madeleine was abducted are 45 million to 1.  A Cheeky Monkey told me, so it must be true. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on June 13, 2019, 10:50:05 AM
Give us a break ey, people standing in the street of a holiday resort is NOT proof that anyone was watching the McCanns.

Great detective you'd make.   Investigation into a child that had disappeared.   Members of the public come forward to say they saw men staring up at the balcony of 5a.   A child seeing a man early in the morning in an alley by 5a just staring up at the balcony,  then again when she came home from school just staring at the balcony.   The balcony of 5a where a child had gone missing.   The men never seen again.   So ignore that would you?   
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on June 13, 2019, 10:52:02 AM
Great detective you'd make.   Investigation into a child that had disappeared.   Members of the public come forward to say they saw men staring up at the balcony of 5a.   A child seeing a man early in the morning in an alley by 5a just staring up at the balcony,  then again when she came home from school just staring at the balcony.   The balcony of 5a where a child had gone missing.   The men never seen again.   So ignore that would you?

The point is that it is not proof of wrong doing.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on June 13, 2019, 10:52:34 AM
I wonder what the odds were, it was a pen.

Say 50/50.   @)(++(*

The child said it was a pencil.   She was able to describe what he was wearing and what he looked like as he was oblivious to her as he was intent at staring at the balcony o 5a.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 13, 2019, 10:53:05 AM
Great detective you'd make.   Investigation into a child that had disappeared.   Members of the public come forward to say they saw men staring up at the balcony of 5a.   A child seeing a man early in the morning in an alley by 5a just staring up at the balcony,  then again when she came home from school just staring at the balcony.   The balcony of 5a where a child had gone missing.   The men never seen again.   So ignore that would you?
Of course he would.  The odds that that was an abductor or working with one are less than 45 million to one.  Cheeky's done the maths.  No need to look at anyone else but the parents.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on June 13, 2019, 10:53:50 AM
The point is that it is not proof of wrong doing.

It is proof the McCann's were being watched.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 13, 2019, 10:55:25 AM
The point is that it is not proof of wrong doing.
Cheeky asked for proof.  If there was proof that the McCann apartment were being watched, what would that look like?  A written statement by the watcher saying he was watching the apartment?  Cheeky is asking for the impossible.  What Lace has supplied is evidence, which you and Cheeky are at liberty to scoff and jeer at, it doesn't change the fact that it is evidence that the apartment was being watched. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on June 13, 2019, 10:56:15 AM
It is proof the McCann's were being watched.

Afraid not. Its just your interpretation of a witness statement.  -  IMO
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 13, 2019, 11:00:26 AM
If he were watching the McCanns what I clever observation post to be stationed right outside the McCann’s apartment all day.

Who’s a clever boy then.
Yeah, he was probably just an innocent bystander who'd been superglued to the pavement.   Nothing to see here, move along...(except he couldn't on account of his feet).
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on June 13, 2019, 11:03:03 AM
Yeah, he was probably just an innocent bystander who'd been superglued to the pavement.   Nothing to see here, move along...(except he couldn't on account of his feet).

Careful now, that was quite funny. You'll be accused of making mockery of Madeleine's disappearance  8(8-))
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on June 13, 2019, 11:04:03 AM

Why do I get the impression that some Sceptics don't believe a word they say?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 13, 2019, 11:04:19 AM
Careful now, that was quite funny. You'll be accused of making mockery of Madeleine's disappearance  8(8-))
I was making a mockery of those that believe any evidence pointing to Madeleine's abduction should be rubbished and ignored. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 13, 2019, 11:07:50 AM
You’re learning I’m happy to see.
You've put a very persuasive argument together Cheeky.  I suggest you send your statistical analysis to Operation Grange, it might help them refocus the investigation.   8)--))
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on June 13, 2019, 11:08:24 AM
Why do I get the impression that some Sceptics don't believe a word they say?


Who are 'they' ?

I think it is fair to say that witness statements  require thorough investigation before claiming it is proof of wrong doing.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on June 13, 2019, 11:08:33 AM
If he were watching the McCanns what a clever observation post to be stationed right outside the McCann’s apartment all day.

Who’s a clever boy then.

Well people like you would just think he was an innocent member of the public standing in the alleyway wouldn't they?   It would only be after the event that he would be classed as suspicious.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on June 13, 2019, 11:10:33 AM
Afraid not. Its just your interpretation of a witness statement.  -  IMO

Yes it was,  so what was so engrossing that the man would stare at the balcony?

Thank god for OG I say.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 13, 2019, 11:14:04 AM
Na, they’ve got a guy standing in the street with a pencil in his pocket to track down.  @)(++(*
But that is a waste of police resources which you can help to put right by showing them your statistics.  Get on it mate.  No time to lose, parents need banging up. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on June 13, 2019, 11:15:49 AM
Yes it was,  so what was so engrossing that the man would stare at the balcony?

Thank god for OG I say.

Have they eliminated him from their inquiries or is he prime suspect?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 13, 2019, 11:20:14 AM
Looking for Jimmy has been a most productive use of resources. Why let me stop now when they have a guy who was seen with his abductor’s tool kit in his pocket. Every abductor needs a pencil.  @)(++(*
So you don't care that the Met wave squandered millions when they could have just looked at your statistics and arrested the parents on day one??  What's wrong with you??  8(8-))
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on June 13, 2019, 11:22:30 AM

Who are 'they' ?

I think it is fair to say that witness statements  require thorough investigation before claiming it is proof of wrong doing.

Sceptics they themselves say.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on June 13, 2019, 11:26:56 AM
Looking for Jimmy has been a most productive use of resources. Why let me stop now when they have a guy who was seen with his abductor’s tool kit in his pocket. Every abductor needs a pencil.  @)(++(*

Says a useless detective.   Lets see what a real detective had to say -


Mr Redwood said: “One reading of the evidence suggest the hallmarks of a pre-planned abduction and elements of surveillance. We see a number of men lurking in and around in the day.”
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on June 13, 2019, 11:30:07 AM
There is proof,  men were seen watching the balcony of 5a,  a child saw a man when she was walking to the bus stop for the school bus,  in the alleyway by 5a he was staring up at the balcony,  again when she was walking home he was there staring up at the balcony.   He had a pencil in his pocket,  more than likely writing down when they left and returned.   There were a pile of cigarette buts on the balcony of a vacant apartment opposite the McCann's, they just cleared them away when they could have found DNA on them.

You can't produce odds as many of these abductions are random,  wrong place wrong time,  just like the McCann's.   In the case of the child taken from her bath,  man passing seeing child in bath alone takes child,  how can you work out that happening again and again and again?   IMO

Would you be kind enough to refresh my memory?  I can remember a child who took notice of 5A because a relative had lived there previously, but I can't recall her name.  Is that the one?  Can you remember her name?

 *&(+(+

The balcony on block 6 was ideally suited to viewing the media circus that deployed on 4 May 2007.  So IF the butts actually existed, it would be necessary to clarify when they were deposited.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on June 13, 2019, 11:30:48 AM
Says a useless detective.   Lets see what a real detective had to say -


Mr Redwood said: “One reading of the evidence suggest the hallmarks of a pre-planned abduction and elements of surveillance. We see a number of men lurking in and around in the day.”

That means that there are other interpretations - or there were at the time of his statement, which is quite some time ago.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on June 13, 2019, 11:34:11 AM
Would you be kind enough to refresh my memory?  I can remember a child who took notice of 5A because a relative had lived there previously, but I can't recall her name.  Is that the one?  Can you remember her name?

 *&(+(+

The balcony on block 6 was ideally suited to viewing the media circus that deployed on 4 May 2007. So IF the butts actually existed, it would be necessary to clarify when they were deposited.


DNA should have been able to identify if they was down to one heavy smoker, or a number of bored hacks.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 13, 2019, 11:41:17 AM
A bit late in the day for statistics now if they have pencil man in their sights. The statistics must be wrong if he had a pencil in his pocket.
But you've demonstrated beyond doubt that the statistics are right.  Therefore it is clear that Madeleine was not abducted.  It is your moral imperative to tell the Met that Pencil Man was an innocent bystander who'd somehow become stuck outside Madeleine's apartment and insist that they turn their attention to the parents who are guilty as your mathematics so brilliantly proves.  Stop dicking about on here and do something seriously useful in bringing this case to its rightful conclusion.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 13, 2019, 11:42:52 AM

DNA should have been able to identify if they was down to one heavy smoker, or a number of bored hacks.
Sadly the PJ didn't think it was necessary to find that out.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on June 13, 2019, 11:45:57 AM
A bit late in the day for statistics now if they have pencil man in their sights. The statistics must be wrong if he had a pencil in his pocket.

Do you think he was  a HHH pencil man, a real hard man?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on June 13, 2019, 11:47:11 AM
Ah the wonderful detective Mr Redwood who done the most remarkable job of NOT solving the case.

You any other examples of real detectives on the case?

Yes, Amaral!
 (&^&
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on June 13, 2019, 11:50:59 AM
Would you be kind enough to refresh my memory?  I can remember a child who took notice of 5A because a relative had lived there previously, but I can't recall her name.  Is that the one?  Can you remember her name?

 *&(+(+

The balcony on block 6 was ideally suited to viewing the media circus that deployed on 4 May 2007.  So IF the butts actually existed, it would be necessary to clarify when they were deposited.


Here is her statement -

www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/T_M_S_AGE_12.htm
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on June 13, 2019, 11:51:44 AM
And we all know what that detective had to say on the case.

Good example IMO!


You think so?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on June 13, 2019, 11:52:11 AM
Ah the wonderful detective Mr Redwood who done the most remarkable job of NOT solving the case.

You any other examples of real detectives on the case?

He retired when the case was ongoing.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on June 13, 2019, 11:53:33 AM

DNA should have been able to identify if they was down to one heavy smoker, or a number of bored hacks.

I wasn't suggesting bored hacks, though that balcony would have been a great location for a photographer or a video team.  I can't remember any media output to suggest that was the case.  Mind you, I would have to factor in the trees of 2007.

 *%87

I have seen firsthand two media circuses in Luz since I first became interested in the MBM case - OG Luz dig 2014 and 10th anniversary at St Vincent's.

A most revealing thing is the number of 'passers-by' who were most curious about both activities.  It's not often you get to see a media scrum live.

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on June 13, 2019, 11:54:04 AM
Do you think he was  a HHH pencil man, a real hard man?


How long did it take to think of that? 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 13, 2019, 11:55:10 AM
Is there any other examples of UK police sending fag butts off for analysis from properties not connected to the case when a person is reported missing?
The location of the DNA butts was potentially significant.  If you think it wasn't perhaps you could tell us why not, oh actually no need - your statistics already prove there was no abductor. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on June 13, 2019, 12:00:15 PM
Actually reading it now,  it was a pen he had and not a pencil   8((()*/
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 13, 2019, 12:00:18 PM
Yes, he retired without solving the case despite saying he intended to.

Does that make him a great detective then?
One day he is going to produce the ace from up his sleeve, then it's game over for the McCanns. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on June 13, 2019, 12:01:44 PM
Yes, he retired without solving the case despite saying he intended to.

Does that make him a great detective then?

What he managed to do when he was investigating was good yes,  he concluded that the McCann's and their friends weren't suspects.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 13, 2019, 12:02:26 PM
It was so significant in your view that you can provide no examples of UK police ever having followed a similar line of enquiry.

There are not my statistics.
I said it was potentially significant and DNA samples taken from cigarettes in potentially significant locations is not uncommon.  But, I digress.  Your stats prove there was no one watching the apartment. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Lace on June 13, 2019, 12:03:42 PM
Do you think he was  a HHH pencil man, a real hard man?

Oh dear I read the statement again and it was a pen the man had.   Now you will have to think of something ink related   8(0(*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on June 13, 2019, 12:13:26 PM
Oh dear I read the statement again and it was a pen the man had.   Now you will have to think of something ink related   8(0(*

No.,no,my comment was pretty much to the point, on the false information you gave.  8(0(*
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on June 13, 2019, 12:23:15 PM
Who is Redwood?

No, Amaral.
He has an "ace up his sleeve"

Is he guilty of perverting the course of justice by not declaring what this ace is?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on June 13, 2019, 12:33:20 PM
Has he now, an ace up his trumpet. Where did you catch wind of that one?

No up his sleeve.
 if it had been  up his trumpet that might have prevented  him blowing his own trumpet as frequently as he did.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on June 13, 2019, 12:41:52 PM
Are you going to keep it a secret where you got wind of that one.

Anyway, landing in Oban now.  &^&*%


 $*6% $*6%

 &^&*%
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on June 13, 2019, 01:02:48 PM

Here is her statement -

www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/T_M_S_AGE_12.htm

Many thanks.  I could not pull her name out of my brain.   *&(+(+

There are several aspects of her statement which are relevant to those who have not visited Luz, so hopefully the following helps.

The Ali Super was nearly opposite the church in 2007.  There are photo stills, and at least one video from when it was open at night, taken when the McCanns attended a late night Mass in Luz.

It was the obvious go-to place for the Smiths if they wanted more alcohol or cigarettes when they left the Dolphin to visit Kelly's.  There is nothing to suggest the Smiths were on the hunt for either.

In 2007, there was a single chemist in Luz, a short walk north of the Ali Super, in Rua Helena Nascimento Batista.

TMS then has what I would consider to be a front door/back door confusion.

From the chemist it is a short walk due north to the west end of Baptista's supermarket.  I consider that to be the main door.  It has a parking lot reserved purely for customers.  It has a cafe concession located there.  It has a large entrance.  It is not situated on the road which runs up to 5A.

On the east side there is what I would call the rear entrance.  It is on the road up to 5A.  It is smaller than the western entrance.  There is car parking, but it is not restricted to Baptista.

So - from the Ali Super, to the chemist, to the W door of Baptista to the E door.  Then up the road that runs past 5A.

Here's another interesting thought or two.

The McCanns would have walked downhill from 5A to use the rear entrance of Baptista.

Baptista had CCTV on the earliest images I can find.   Cameras covering both front and rear.  If we had intel from those cameras we might be able to firm up the McCanns visit to Baptista, and of course that of TMS.

 *&(+(+

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on June 13, 2019, 01:53:50 PM
He retired when the case was ongoing.

So he as that much in common with Amaral then.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on June 13, 2019, 02:08:13 PM
So he as that much in common with Amaral then.

But he wasn't sacked was he.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on June 13, 2019, 02:10:11 PM
But he wasn't sacked was he.


No, he resigned.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on June 13, 2019, 02:20:28 PM

No, he resigned.

I think you'll find that Redwood retired.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on June 13, 2019, 02:23:04 PM
But he wasn't sacked was he.

Nope,both left when the case is/was still ongoing,which is what you know full well I meant.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on June 13, 2019, 02:36:30 PM
Nope,both left when the case is/was still ongoing,which is what you know full well I meant.

There was a difference in the manner of their going I'm afraid.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: jassi on June 13, 2019, 02:37:04 PM
I think you'll find that Redwood retired.

Quite right, I meant that Amaral resigned, not sacked.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on June 13, 2019, 02:38:49 PM
Quite right, I meant that Amaral resigned, not sacked.

Only because they wouldn't let him publish his book.  However, he was sacked from The McCann Case.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: slartibartfast on June 13, 2019, 06:15:05 PM
Only because they wouldn't let him publish his book.  However, he was sacked from The McCann Case.

How many Met people have been sacked from the McCann case?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on June 13, 2019, 08:01:12 PM
Only because they wouldn't let him publish his book.  However, he was sacked from The McCann Case.

He should never have been given the case.
In my opinion.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on June 13, 2019, 08:14:35 PM
He should never have been given the case.
In my opinion.

There should never have been a case for him to be given, in my opinion.

We have the McCanns to thank that there is.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on June 13, 2019, 08:19:58 PM
There should never have been a case for him to be given, in my opinion.

We have the McCanns to thank that there is.

I assume the same peculiar logic could be applied to cases he and other detectives all over the world have been given.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on June 13, 2019, 08:22:20 PM
I assume the same peculiar logic could be applied to cases he and other detectives all over the world have been given.

Yes, they are all the McCanns fault aswell.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on June 13, 2019, 08:24:50 PM
Yes, they are all the McCanns fault aswell.

Sometimes I do wonder if you are a fifth columnist!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 13, 2019, 08:44:15 PM
Gerry McCann: "If you think about the millions and millions of British families who go to the Mediterranean each year, really the chances of this happening are in the order of 100 million to one."

If you use professor McCann's own statistics, there is a chance to buy TWO winning lottery tickets.  8(0(*
Nice quote.
I think Monkey was building in a margin of error and erring on the side of caution.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 13, 2019, 09:49:26 PM
Gerry McCann: "If you think about the millions and millions of British families who go to the Mediterranean each year, really the chances of this happening are in the order of 100 million to one."

If you use professor McCann's own statistics, there is a chance to buy TWO winning lottery tickets.  8(0(*
Actually the chances of a child being abducted by a stranger is put at 300,000 to one.  It is extremely rare.  But the fact is, it does happen.  Just as winning the lottery happens with almost weekly regularity.  Given how rare it is, why would anyone expect their child to be taken from an unlocked apartment, or lock the door to make sure it didn’t happen?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 13, 2019, 10:01:16 PM
Actually the chances of a child being abducted by a stranger is put at 300,000 to one.  It is extremely rare.  But the fact is, it does happen.  Just as winning the lottery happens with almost weekly regularity.  Given how rare it is, why would anyone expect their child to be taken from an unlocked apartment, or lock the door to make sure it didn’t happen?
Well they would dramatically increase those odds if they did.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 13, 2019, 10:07:20 PM
Well they would dramatically increase those odds if they did.
To what?  1 in 10? 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 13, 2019, 10:09:22 PM
To what?  1 in 10?
I said......increase odds? Make it less likely? Locking the door.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 13, 2019, 10:15:26 PM
I said......increase odds? Make it less likely? Locking the door.
Sorry misread, but I’m not sure I follow.  You mean make it even less likely than 300,000 to 1? 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 13, 2019, 10:20:11 PM
Sorry misread, but I’m not sure I follow.  You mean make it even less likely than 300,000 to 1?
So Red Rum is 2/1 to win the Grand National. He's the favourite. He's very likely to win.
He's lame on the day, but can still run. The bookies get wind, so they increase the odds to 20/1 as he's not likely to win now.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 13, 2019, 10:25:55 PM
So Red Rum is 2/1 to win the Grand National. He's the favourite. He's very likely to win.
He's lame on the day, but can still run. The bookies get wind, so they increase the odds to 20/1 as he's not likely to win now.
So if the odds that your child will be abducted by a stranger are put at 300,000 to one, what are the odds of this happening to them if left unattended in an unlocked apartment?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 13, 2019, 10:26:56 PM
So if the odds that your child will be abducted by a stranger are put at 300,000 to one, what are the odds of this happening to them if left unattended in an unlocked apartment?
Less than that.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 13, 2019, 10:27:39 PM
Less than that.
1 in 10?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 13, 2019, 10:32:54 PM
1 in 10?
Nah.
But the risk of something else happening needs to be factored in.
So what's the odds (or the chance) of an adverse event of any description occurring?
You reduce the chance exponentially with the introduction of control measures, such as locking the door. Or supervising them the whole time.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 13, 2019, 10:38:58 PM
Nah.
But the risk of something else happening needs to be factored in.
So what's the odds (or the chance) of an adverse event of any description occurring?
You reduce the chance exponentially with the introduction of control measures, such as locking the door. Or supervising them the whole time.
The thing is, it’s the fact that the door was left unlocked that really seems to outrage people, so much so that some people think the McCanns must be lying about doing so as they believe it’s  so risky as to be unthinkable.  But the risk of being abducted because one of the doors was left unlocked is very very small. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 13, 2019, 10:40:47 PM
Like say, after being abducted, a cadaver dog that had never falsely alerted in more than 200 criminal case searches comes along and alerts on 12 separate occasions? All factors that DID occur.
....aaaaannnd were back to my original point from a few days ago. What's the chances? A little girl is missing....and a cadaver dog alerts.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 13, 2019, 10:41:51 PM
....aaaaannnd were back to my original point from a few days ago. What's the chances? A little girl is missing....and a cadaver dog alerts.
It happened in the Shannon Matthews case.  What are the chances indeed!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 13, 2019, 10:43:37 PM
It happened in the Shannon Matthews case.  What are the chances indeed!
At least you understand the concept of odds now.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on June 13, 2019, 10:47:04 PM
....aaaaannnd were back to my original point from a few days ago. What's the chances? A little girl is missing....and a cadaver dog alerts.

It did happen with another case?
If I remember correctly but perhaps not?
Shannon Matthews?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 13, 2019, 10:49:22 PM
It did happen with another case?
If I remember correctly but perhaps not?
Shannon Matthews?
Yeh, not the same.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on June 13, 2019, 10:49:42 PM
She never got abducted by a stranger. Easy there tiger! You're making it up as you go along now.

See, a snide post.
Reported!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on June 13, 2019, 10:50:01 PM
Yeh, not the same.
Why?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 13, 2019, 10:50:56 PM
See, a snide post.
Reported!
What? Really?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: The General on June 13, 2019, 10:51:46 PM
Why?
Her uncle hid her in a divan in a house down the road.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on June 13, 2019, 10:54:17 PM
What? Really?

Oh. Yes!
I can detect a snide post and it will be reported!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 13, 2019, 10:57:53 PM
Yeh, not the same.
A child went missing and a cadaver dog alerts.  Had Shannon Matthews been smuggled out of the country and never found again many would be convinced the alert proved she died in the apartment.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 13, 2019, 10:59:19 PM
Her uncle hid her in a divan in a house down the road.
What’s that got to do with your premise - a child disappears and a cadaver dog alerts?  Maybe Madeleine was hidden in a divan in a house down the road.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on June 13, 2019, 11:00:45 PM
Her uncle hid her in a divan in a house down the road.

Yes I know that.
Did a cadaver dog alert to anything in her disappearance?
Were sniffer dogs deployed?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on June 13, 2019, 11:02:19 PM
See, a snide post.
Reported!

I don't think it's snide.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on June 13, 2019, 11:05:02 PM
A child didn't go missing at all in Shannon Mathew's case. Please refrain from making it up as you go along.

For goodness sake behave!
A little girl was missing and  thankfully found.
Does you no credit at all to minimise the seriousness of how this must have been to the little girl who was subjected to such a horrendous ordeal!
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 13, 2019, 11:05:47 PM
A child didn't go missing at all in Shannon Mathew's case. Please refrain from making it up as you go along.
So Shannon Matthews was not a missing child and the police didn’t mount one of the biggest and most expensive missing children investigations in this country. Right.  I must have dreamt it then.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 13, 2019, 11:07:56 PM
It's rather telling IMO that you have to cite a FAKE abduction in a feeble attempt to support a point.
So Madeleine McCann is not a missing child either then, according to your definition  *%87
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 13, 2019, 11:08:42 PM
I don't think it's snide.
Are you the Snide Monitor now?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 13, 2019, 11:11:11 PM
She was reported missing, that's nothing at all like going missing. Her mother knew where she was all the time, so she can hardly be missing, can she?
Why was Michael Donovan charged and found guilty of kidnapping her then?  And wtf difference does it make whether her mother knew where she was or not to this fact = child goes missing, police investigate, cadaver dog alerts.  Explain why this is not a valid comparsion..
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 13, 2019, 11:11:31 PM
Do you think it was snide? Would you like me to edit any of it for you?
Nope.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 13, 2019, 11:12:53 PM
And we’re not allowed to use abusive terms like stupid, jeez. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 13, 2019, 11:14:56 PM
A fake abduction is a great comparison IMHO.

Well done for a change!
??? So now you agree it’s a valid comparison?  LMAO.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: sadie on June 13, 2019, 11:16:39 PM
Like say, after being abducted, a cadaver dog that had never falsely alerted in more than 200 criminal case searches comes along and alerts on 12 separate occasions? All factors that DID occur.

You are totally wrong.  Where did you get your figures from?

Try studying the forum at later discussions of the doggie facts.  Where there was more understanding of what their barks meant and did not mean.


There was nothing that was remotely strong enough to take to Court.


Eddie was a cadavar and a "living" blood dog. 

Eddie may have smelled dried "living" blood in the one spot that he alerted to.   Please note:  Only one spot is unaccounted for within 5A  but it is  a dud.  see below.



A previous owner of 5A died in hospital.   His ashes and clothes were likely brought back to his greiving widow in 5A.   The scent appeared to be on /in front of the wall at the side of the bed.


Just the spot where a greiving widow would place the ashes for her comfort in the night.


Nothing of any substance there Cheeky.  That one and only alert by Eddie would be chucked out of Court pronto,


AIMO
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on June 13, 2019, 11:18:20 PM
A fake abduction is a great comparison IMHO.

Well done for a change!

The police found out that it was a faked abduction in spite of the cadaver dog alerts.
As yet after twelve years of investigation and despite two current investigations by two police forces that has not been found to be the case in Madeleine's disappearance.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 13, 2019, 11:18:47 PM
If you are comparing a case of a fake abduction with Madeleine's disappearance, then yes, you have my full agreement.
Right.  So you must also agree that the cadaver alert in the Shannon Matthews case was thoroughly misleading and had Shannon been smuggled out of the country and never found again that you would be doing your clever maths and making 2+2=5
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 13, 2019, 11:31:27 PM
Misleading for who? I don't agree. She was never missing in the first place and she was found alive which proves it wasn't her cadaver the dog was alerting to.

A little bit of proof never misleads anyone.
You either didn’t read my post properly or didn’t understand it, so me try again. Is it not true that IF Shannon had not been located by the police to this day, the cadaver alerts would have taken on sinister significance?  If not, perhaps you can explain why you would have been happy to dismiss them in such a scenario. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 13, 2019, 11:32:11 PM
Why use my maths? Why not professor McCann's? His 2 + 2 = 100,000,000
Your maths is so much more entertaining.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on June 13, 2019, 11:44:52 PM
How can it be true when we KNOW she was neither missing nor dead. The only people who could have smuggled her out of the country were her parents. Is this really your best example with which to compare Madeline's disappearance? Honestly?

Did YOU know at the beginning of her disappearance that she was neither missing nor dead?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 14, 2019, 12:02:52 AM
How can it be true when we KNOW she was neither missing nor dead. The only people who could have smuggled her out of the country were her parents. Is this really your best example with which to compare Madeline's disappearance? Honestly?
It seems you are unwilling or unable to understand.  Do you understand the word “if”?  Yes we know Shannon was found but at the time of the cadaver alert the police had not found her, ergo she was missing.  The comparison IS valid, it’s just you refuse to accept it,  for reasons I can guess at.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 14, 2019, 12:05:04 AM
Cheeky Monkey, is Madeline McCann a missing child or not, in your opinion?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Erngath on June 14, 2019, 12:40:40 AM
IF - on the condition or supposition that; in the event that.
If can only be applied to things we are NOT sure about. In the Shannon Mathew's case WE ARE CERTAINLY SURE that she was NEVER missing and she was NEVER dead OR smuggled out of the country. There are no 'IF's' in the Shannon Mathews case to compare with. I'd argue it's you who doesn't appear to understand.

The cadaver dogs did alert in the case of Shannon Matthews but she wasn't found to be dead
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on June 14, 2019, 03:35:44 AM
Misleading for who? I don't agree. She was never missing in the first place and she was found alive which proves it wasn't her cadaver the dog was alerting to.

A little bit of proof never misleads anyone.
The jury in the Shannon Matthews case hear the true extent of time, money and resources dedicated to finding her
(http://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2008/03/12/shannon460.jpg?width=620&quality=45&auto=format&fit=max&dpr=2&s=99af724be20881db1a11544ab196e20e)
Three quarters of the UK's trained police dogs were used in the hunt for Shannon Matthews. Photographer: Gareth Copley/PA
The search for Shannon was one of the largest ever conducted by the West Yorkshire force.

Prosecutor Julian Goose QC told the court today that the 24-day hunt cost almost Ł3.2 million and involved three quarters of all the UK's specially-trained police dogs.

At its height, the search involved more than 300 police officers, members of the public and the media, who all joined in with the operation to find her, the court was told.

Within a half-mile radius of where Shannon was last seen, 1,800 premises were searched and extensive house-to-house inquiries were conducted at many more.

The court was told most child abduction investigations resulted in the victim being found within a half-mile radius of where he or she went missing.

This was why West Yorkshire police committed its "huge resources" to this area where there were more than 2,850 premises, the jury was told.

Goose said more than 800 CCTV tapes and computer hard drives were examined and 41 other areas were searched outside the half-mile radius of Moorside Road, including operations in Cumbria and Nottinghamshire.

The jury of seven men and five women also heard that police experience showed that when children were abducted and murdered they normally died within three days of their disappearance.

"All available police dog handlers, firearms officers, special constables, rescue workers and a large number of residents from the Dewsbury Moor estate were engaged in that search," he said.

The prosecutor added: "The search involved hundreds of police officers, even more members of the public and national newspaper and television publicity.

"All this was for one single purpose; to find Shannon alive and well."
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/nov/12/shannonmatthews-biggest-search



That is precisely the fact that Martin Grime noted in the search for Madeleine ... "which proves it wasn't her cadaver the dog was alerting to."

But you are seriously wrong in saying that Shannon "was never missing".

Of course she was ... and it is misleading for you to claim otherwise.

The intensive and immediate concentration of the focused search of the area in which she was eventually recovered from shows how difficult it is to trace a missing person who has been hidden.
Shannon was missing for twenty four days during which the intensity of the search for her was never let up. 

Madeleine was never given that leeway ... according to Amaral in his book he thought she was dead right from the beginning ... and leaks to the Portuguese press during the golden hours prove how early she was given up on ...

JOSE MANUEL OLIVEIRA
Crime reporter, 'Diario de Noticias'
Information started circulating from sources connected to the Portuguese police that the story was full of holes from the side of the McCanns and their friends. Indeed within two days of Madeleine disappearing, this crime correspondent was filing this piece in the Portuguese Daily: Diario of the Noticias: "Headline: a badly told story." We started to receive information according to which the police suspected the theory they had apprehensions, didn't believe the theory that she had been kidnapped. To conclude, the police started to suspect the parents from the word go. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/7106086.stm


Maybe Saunokonoko might make a podcast reflecting that angle contrasting the difference in the manner of the searches conducted for two missing children ... I wouldn't think the contrast might have occurred, but one never knows.


Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 14, 2019, 07:09:41 AM
IF - on the condition or supposition that; in the event that.
If can only be applied to things we are NOT sure about. In the Shannon Mathew's case WE ARE CERTAINLY SURE that she was NEVER missing and she was NEVER dead OR smuggled out of the country. There are no 'IF's' in the Shannon Mathews case to compare with. I'd argue it's you who doesn't appear to understand.
So you are unable to come to terms with the glaringly obvious.  That’s fine, I can live with that.   8(0(* 

Incidentally you didn’t answer my question about Madeleine- is she a missing child or is she not really missing at all?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 14, 2019, 08:34:18 AM
Of course Madeleine is a missing child but you said 'It happened in the Shannon Matthews case.  What are the chances indeed!' What happened in the case Shannon Mathew's case? Her mother FALSELY reported her missing remember, she never was missing. Is that a comparison you really wish to choose? That's fine too, I can live with that.

I have always been fully able to come to terms with YOUR comparison of a FALSE report of a missing child to that of Madeleine's disappearance. Whether you can live with that FACT is neither here nor there.  8(0(*

I have answered it now.
You are simply wrong.  You claim that Shannon was never missing because her mother knew where she was.  Yet you claim Madeleine IS missing despite your firm belief that her parents know where she is.  Your logic is completely flawed.  As far as Shannon’s father, siblings, grandparents, school teacher, school friends, the police etc were concerned Shannon was a missing child.  If children who are abducted by a parent are not missing then why does Interpol’s website have a page devoted to missing children who have been taken by a parent?  Are they not really missing?  Do you see how nonsensical your argument is?  Probably not.  Ever heard the saying “you can throw a banana at a monkey but you can’t make him eat?”
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on June 14, 2019, 08:55:34 AM
You are missing out one critical FACTOR in your comparison. PROOF! We have proof that Shannon Mathews was NEVER really missing. The one critical component you argue is missing in the Madeleine McCann case.

It's a good comparison IMO if you take Gerry's statistics and the dog results on board. Not to mention his two completely different versions of the last time he claims to have seen Madeleine (who Gerry states is missing) alive.

WE CAN PROVE Shannon Mathew's father, siblings, grandparents, school teacher, school friends, the police FALSELY believed Shannon was missing because Shannon's mother had FALSELY reported her missing.

If that's a comparison you wish to go with, let me take my hat off to you.  Well done!

Your logic is serious flawed, unless you believe that Madeleine isn't missing as her parents know where she is.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on June 14, 2019, 10:08:43 AM
Did Shannon Mathew's mother know where Shannon was, is the point? That's the comparison that VS is making, not me.

Does Kate McCann know where Madeleine is?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on June 14, 2019, 10:41:02 AM
IMO, yes she does. Karen Mathews knew where her daughter was all along. That's a fact which VS thinks is a good comparison to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.

A false report of a missing child can never actually mean the child is missing if the report is given to be intentionally false. The location of the missing child in the Shannon Mathews case was known to her mother at ALL times. She can hardly be missing in that case, can she?

Proof is the operative word here.  No one had any proof that Karen Matthews knew, and no one has any proof that Kate McCann knows.

However, a Cadaver Dog did alert in The Matthew's household.  But then hindsight is always a good thing if you want to twist facts and attempt to bullpoo people.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on June 14, 2019, 11:13:07 AM
The fact the cadaver dog alerted in the Mathews household has never been disputed by me but Shannon turning up alive gives us proof NOW that it wasn't to Shannon's cadaver. My father lay in his deathbed for several hours before being removed from the house, do we have proof that no one else had ever died in the locations the dog alerted to in the Mathews household?

And all that aside, we had proof yesterday, that Shannon Mathew's mother faked her daughter's abduction, so VS had hindsight on her side prior to posting her comparison.

Is there a cite for cadaver dogs alerting in the Mathews case,I've only found specialist dogs failing to find a trace.


March 2008 :Police searching for missing nine-year-old schoolgirl Shannon Matthews said today that more than 500 homes lining her route to school have been searched using specialist sniffer dogs.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/mar/04/ukcrime2

Update DEC 2008.

March 4: One-tenth of Yorkshire police are now deployed in the hunt for Shannon - the biggest such operation since the search for the Yorkshire Ripper. Sniffer dogs trained to find human remains search more than 500 houses.


https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/mar/14/2
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on June 14, 2019, 11:22:08 AM
Good point. There's certainly nothing about cadaver dog alerts in the Mathew's household in the piece Brietta was kind enough to post either.

Whereas we have  confirmation in the McCann case.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2019, 11:25:34 AM
Good point. There's certainly nothing about cadaver dog alerts in the Mathew's household in the piece Brietta was kind enough to post either.

The one poster who could challenge your statistics and show where you are, wrong wasn't able to post.. I'm busy for half an hour... Looking forward to your answers
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on June 14, 2019, 11:29:59 AM
A Cadaver Dog alerted to a Sofa in The Matthews House.  The Sofa was Second Hand.

Nope, not going looking for a Cite.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on June 14, 2019, 11:31:13 AM
A Cadaver Dog alerted to a Sofa in The Matthews House.  The Sofa was Second Hand.

Nope, not going looking for a Cite.

Ah come on play the game.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2019, 11:33:27 AM
Gerry McCann: "If you think about the millions and millions of British families who go to the Mediterranean each year, really the chances of this happening are in the order of 100 million to one."

Then this one poster who is busy for half an hour will be showing were Gerry McCann is twice as wrong!

Go for it!

I'm talking about your 200 times 11 claim... What makes you think the dog had never given a false alert in 200 cases... That's a myth...
In reality the alerts have no evidential value... None...
So it becomes zero times 11...

If a dog alerted thst had a hundred over percent record over 200 cases then I agree it would be powerful evidence... But the fact is... The 200 claim isn't true
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2019, 11:58:18 AM
And how can it be zero times 11 if the 11 alerts have zero value? In the world of mathematics you're formula would have to be zero times zero.

You're doing some job of proving yourself wrong.

You are avoiding the fact the 200 alerts without a false positive is a mere myth... The alerts are not myths..  They happened
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2019, 12:03:35 PM
200 alerts? What the hell are you talking about? Martin Grimes report states it was 200 criminal case searches without a false positive. It doesn't say anything about 200 alerts.

Cite for 200 case, searches without a false positive.... It's a myth..

I read his report again yesterday to be sure
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2019, 12:06:36 PM
From the cite above: 'False' positives are always a possibility; to date Eddie has NOT so indicated
operationally or in training. In six years of operational deployment in over 200
criminal case searches.'

Your cite is not correct
You've missed off the end if the sentence
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2019, 12:11:01 PM
What difference does adding "the dog has NEVER alerted to meat based and
specifically pork foodstuffs designed for human consumption" make in the grand scheme of the statistics?

Now you are beginning to highlight your error
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 14, 2019, 12:11:12 PM
Gerry McCann: "If you think about the millions and millions of British families who go to the Mediterranean each year, really the chances of this happening are in the order of 100 million to one."

If you use professor McCann's own statistics, there is a chance to buy TWO winning lottery tickets.  8(0(*
But that is what I was getting at Gerry has used all the families that  go to Portugal.  I wouldn't have thought it would be 100 million but there you are he didn't just limit it to the 4 families in the Tapas 9 group.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 14, 2019, 12:15:39 PM
Where did you get the 300,000/1 statistic from if you don't mind me asking? How many children are there in the UK today, and how many of them have been abducted? 

Your 300,000/1 statistic will fail to stand up to closer examination I suspect but I'm all ears?
Many of these abductions will be quickly solved IMO.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2019, 12:17:34 PM
Feel free to point my so called error out?

A little later, and I will... I will copy and past e the precise, statement
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 14, 2019, 12:22:58 PM
She was reported missing, that's nothing at all like going missing. Her mother knew where she was all the time, so she can hardly be missing, can she?
If a child is abducted, the abductor knows where the child is, so the child isn't missing!

"Reported missing" must be the criteria IMO.  If a child is reported missing, it is missing.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2019, 12:23:05 PM
In six years of operational deployment in over 200
criminal case searches the dog has never alerted to meat based and
specifically pork foodstuffs designed for human consumption.



That's the sentence that Im sure you and others have misunderstood
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 14, 2019, 12:31:25 PM
A Cadaver Dog alerted to a Sofa in The Matthews House.  The Sofa was Second Hand.

Nope, not going looking for a Cite.
Bought from a deceased estate IIRC.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on June 14, 2019, 12:34:59 PM
Bought from a deceased estate IIRC.

Thanks, Rod.  That was it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on June 14, 2019, 12:36:17 PM
Bought from a deceased estate IIRC.

But the article I posted made no mention of alerts,so where is the cite for the alert,please.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: sadie on June 14, 2019, 12:36:57 PM
Proof is the operative word here.  No one had any proof that Karen Matthews knew, and no one has any proof that Kate McCann knows.

However, a Cadaver Dog did alert in The Matthew's household.  But then hindsight is always a good thing if you want to twist facts and attempt to bullpoo people.

Well Karen was jailed, so seems she must have owned up, or something
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 14, 2019, 12:37:44 PM
Let me save you the trouble.

FALSE ALERTS

'False' positives are always a possibility; to date Eddie has not so indicated
operationally or in training. In six years of operational deployment in over 200
criminal case searches the dog has never alerted to meat based and
specifically pork foodstuffs designed for human consumption. Similarly the
dog has never alerted to 'road kill', that is any other dead animal.
My experience as a trainer is that false alerts are normally caused by handler
cueing. All indications by the dog are preceded by a change in bahaviour.
This increased handler confidence in the response. This procedure also stops
handlers 'cueing' and indication. The dogs are allowed to 'free search' and
investigate areas of interest. The handler does not influence their behaviour
other than to direct the search.
Eddie was definitely a well trained dog. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on June 14, 2019, 12:39:02 PM
Eddie was definitely a well trained dog.

What?  Eddie was manic most of the time.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 14, 2019, 12:41:58 PM
Not if the person reporting the child missing knows where the child is I'm afraid.
That makes it tricky.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on June 14, 2019, 12:45:33 PM
That makes it tricky.

A bit more than tricky.  You have to prove it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on June 14, 2019, 12:51:23 PM
What?  Eddie was manic most of the time.

How would you expect him to react,somewhere along the lines of Freud's, Henry all docile and uninteresting?

https://youtu.be/W7n0uwxpEnI
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2019, 12:56:16 PM
Eddie was definitely a well trained dog.

No one is denying Eddie was a well trained dog... But grime never said Eddie did not make a false alert in 200 case searches.. It would be impossible fir Grime to make such a statement unless every alert resulted in finding human remains.   .....blood.. Teeth... Etc
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on June 14, 2019, 12:57:57 PM
How would you expect him to react,somewhere along the lines of Freud's, Henry all docile and uninteresting?

https://youtu.be/W7n0uwxpEnI

I didn't expect Eddie to throw evidence in the air.  That wasn't very well trained.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 14, 2019, 01:05:24 PM
What?  Eddie was manic most of the time.
He was allowed to run free.  Is freedom and maniac related?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 14, 2019, 01:09:08 PM
No one is denying Eddie was a well trained dog... But grime never said Eddie did not make a false alert in 200 case searches.. It would be impossible fir Grime to make such a statement unless every alert resulted in finding human remains.   .....blood.. Teeth... Etc
There are false positives and false negatives, Cheeky Monkey is quoting false positives due to certain causes.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2019, 01:16:23 PM
There are false positives and false negatives, Cheeky Monkey is quoting false positives due to certain causes.

Monkey is making a false claim... Grime never said Eddie had no false positives in 200 case searches... As I recall monkey went further and claimed Eddie had never been wrong in 200 case, searches
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Carana on June 14, 2019, 01:19:30 PM
Is there a cite for cadaver dogs alerting in the Mathews case,I've only found specialist dogs failing to find a trace.


March 2008 :Police searching for missing nine-year-old schoolgirl Shannon Matthews said today that more than 500 homes lining her route to school have been searched using specialist sniffer dogs.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/mar/04/ukcrime2

Update DEC 2008.

March 4: One-tenth of Yorkshire police are now deployed in the hunt for Shannon - the biggest such operation since the search for the Yorkshire Ripper. Sniffer dogs trained to find human remains search more than 500 houses.


https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/mar/14/2

Victim recovery dogs from four different police forces were used during searches for kidnapped schoolgirl Shannon Matthews in Dewsbury in West Yorkshire in 2008.

The dogs found evidence of dead bodies, but officers later discovered the corpses were nothing to do with her disappearance.

"The properties searched contained a high level of second-hand furniture bought from dwellings where someone had died," according to the NPIA report.

"This resulted in numerous indications that required further investigation to confirm whether they were connected to the investigation, or to previous owners of the furniture."

https://news.sky.com/story/sniffer-dogs-can-hinder-police-work-10488976
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2019, 01:20:34 PM
Like say, after being abducted, a cadaver dog that had never falsely alerted in more than 200 criminal case searches comes along and alerts on 12 separate occasions? All factors that DID occur.

So where is the evidence that Eddie never falsely alerted in 200 case searches
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on June 14, 2019, 01:22:12 PM
He was allowed to run free.  Is freedom and maniac related?

How would you describe throwing evidence in the air?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 14, 2019, 01:24:03 PM
Monkey is making a false claim... Grime never said Eddie had no false positives in 200 case searches... As I recall monkey went further and claimed Eddie had never been wrong in 200 case, searches
He gave the full quote several times. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 14, 2019, 01:26:46 PM
How would you describe throwing evidence in the air?
He picked up some of the clothing as well.  Maybe that was something that helped Eddie determine whether to alert or not.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2019, 01:29:36 PM
He gave the full quote several times.

The quote does not support the statement that Eddie did not give a false alert in 200 case searches..
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on June 14, 2019, 01:40:09 PM
How was the cadaver dog in the Shannon Mathews case meant to know that?

Sounds like confirmation that the little cadaver doggie was right all along. Well whata ya know.

Oh, of course.  Cadaver Dogs can't tell who's dead, or how long for.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2019, 01:43:52 PM
Did the cadaver dog in the Zapata case find blood, teeth etc in that case? Why would it be impossible?

There were 11 alerts in pdl... We don't know if they are to cadaver... Alerts can only be confirmed if physical evidence is found
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2019, 01:49:24 PM
What physical evidence confirmed the alerts in the Zapata case was the question?

None. .so we cannot be sure they alerted to a particular cadaver

Cadaver dogs only get taken to sites where a cadaver is, suspected to have been
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2019, 01:58:50 PM
Mr Zapata confirmed the alerts though didn't he? So your claim that alerts cannot be confirmed without physical evidence cannot possibly be a true one. Can it?

That's what grime says... Physical evidence..
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on June 14, 2019, 01:59:21 PM
Mr Zapata confirmed the alerts though didn't he? So your claim that alerts cannot be confirmed without physical evidence cannot possibly be a true one. Can it?

Splitting hairs again.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2019, 02:04:56 PM
Need I remind you here: Davel: "The one poster who could challenge your statistics and show where you are, wrong wasn't able to post.. I'm busy for half an hour... Looking forward to your answers

Calling it splitting hairs if you like.

I've challenged your statistics and shown that grime did not say Eddie has has never made a, false alert in 200 cases
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2019, 02:07:02 PM
If Eddie was so reliable it could be shown that in 200 searches he had never made a, false, alert.. Then the alerts would be of value
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2019, 02:07:42 PM
Didn't he use the term corroborating evidence?

That's what Mr Zapata supplied in that case.

I can provide a cite where he was far more specific
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2019, 02:18:28 PM
It was case searches, not individual cases. Nice try cutie pie! Perhaps you could provide a cite for where you have shown that Grime did NOT say Eddie has has never made a, false alert in 200 cases.

I've provided it... Grime says Eddie has not alerted to foodstuffs or meat for human consumption in 200 case, serahes... Not no false, alerts in 200 case, searches
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 14, 2019, 03:05:14 PM
You are missing out one critical FACTOR in your comparison. PROOF! We have proof that Shannon Mathews was NEVER really missing. The one critical component you argue is missing in the Madeleine McCann case.

It's a good comparison IMO if you take Gerry's statistics and the dog results on board. Not to mention his two completely different versions of the last time he claims to have seen Madeleine (who Gerry states is missing) alive.

WE CAN PROVE Shannon Mathew's father, siblings, grandparents, school teacher, school friends, the police FALSELY believed Shannon was missing because Shannon's mother had FALSELY reported her missing.

If that's a comparison you wish to go with, let me take my hat off to you.  Well done!
The Shannon Matthews case proves that a child can go missing, a cadaver dog can alert in a suspect’s apartment and the child can subsequently be found alive.  That is all. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 14, 2019, 03:06:14 PM
You're not just a pretty face Eleanor.  8((()*/
So now you’re saying Madleine isn’t missing?   *%87. Earlier you said of course she’s missing!  *%87
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 14, 2019, 03:09:48 PM
Not if the person reporting the child missing knows where the child is I'm afraid.
Right, so according to you Madeleine is not missing.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: barrier on June 14, 2019, 04:00:59 PM
Oh, of course.  Cadaver Dogs can't tell who's dead, or how long for.

No a post mortem will do that,in the case of Madeleine,thats  not going to happen,imo body long gone,possibly the same night as her reported disappearance.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 14, 2019, 05:04:39 PM
The only thing that comment proves is that you don't know the difference between a missing child and the report of a missing child.

You seem to be under the delusion that Shannon Mathews was ever missing. She wasn't missing, her mother knew where she was when she filed the report.
So what if her mother knew where she was when she reported her missing, what difference does it make to my statement?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 14, 2019, 05:07:15 PM
There is also another thing you have overlooked that the Shannon Mathews case proves, it proves that a child can be REPORTED missing, a cadaver dog can alert correctly and the child still turns up alive.
https://news.sky.com/story/sniffer-dogs-can-hinder-police-work-10488976

Where's the proof that Madeleine is still alive in her case, since you've chosen a fake abduction case to compare it with?
I have no idea if Madeleine is alive or dead.  In the Shannon case the dog did not  alert to the body of the child the police were looking for.  Shannon turned up later alive.  The cadaver odour was nothing to do with her. FACT. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 14, 2019, 05:07:41 PM
Didn't they prove Karen Mathews knew where her daughter was all along when she reported her daughter missing at her court case? How much more proof do you need?
So what?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on June 14, 2019, 05:27:48 PM
Good point. There's certainly nothing about cadaver dog alerts in the Mathew's household in the piece Brietta was kind enough to post either.
One cites an article when wishing to make a particular point.  Which in the instance you quote was not about the false positive alerts made by specialist dogs brought into the case.

It seems the sceptics on this board are now indulging in more rewriting of history by their denial that the dogs did indeed make false alerts in Shannon's case ... to which I now post the appropriate link ...

Snip
A South Yorkshire Police spaniel called Eddie was said to have sniffed out the "scent of death" at the Haut de la Garenne children's home in Jersey and the apartment from which Madeleine McCann disappeared in Portugal.

But in both cases nothing more was found and South Yorkshire Police say Eddie is no longer working with them.

Victim recovery dogs from four different police forces were used during searches for kidnapped schoolgirl Shannon Matthews in Dewsbury in West Yorkshire in 2008.

The dogs found evidence of dead bodies, but officers later discovered the corpses were nothing to do with her disappearance.

"The properties searched contained a high level of second-hand furniture bought from dwellings where someone had died," according to the NPIA report.

"This resulted in numerous indications that required further investigation to confirm whether they were connected to the investigation, or to previous owners of the furniture."

The Association of Chief Police Officers told Sky News it was consulting individual police forces and hoped to have national training standards for the dogs later this year.

https://news.sky.com/story/sniffer-dogs-can-hinder-police-work-10488976
____________________________________________________________________________

The dogs did indeed find evidence of death ... but most certainly not Shannon's.  Resulting ... as reported ... in time having to be taken out of the investigation to check out the provenance of the alerts which in all instances were proved to have an association with dead people.

The point being that no inference was made regarding those alerts until the police had the evidence to prove the verifiable source.  That just did not happen in Madeleine's case thanks to the amateurism demonstrated by those involved in deciding a bark equalled guilt without bothering with the proof of evidence.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 14, 2019, 05:28:08 PM
It means she was NEVER missing, dinnit?
I dispute that but so what?  It doesn’t alter my point.  Police looking for missing girl, bring in cadaver dogs, dogs alert, girl shows up alive afterwards.  I know you don’t like “ifs” but if the girl hadn’t shown up afterwards for months or years the cadaver dogs would have been viewed by the likes of you as evidence of her death.  What her mother did or didn’t know is immaterial to this fact.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 14, 2019, 05:29:10 PM
According to the police report, there was cadaver odour present and the dog was correct in the Mathew's house. Another FACT. Is there any evidence in Madeleine's case that you are comparing it with, that the odour came from somebody else's dead body?
We have no way of knowing what the dogs actually alerted to as no body was found, nor any trace of one.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on June 14, 2019, 05:31:24 PM
Not if the person reporting the child missing knows where the child is I'm afraid.

I know it has been said before ... but your 'logic' is seriously flawed.  I find it absolutely mind boggling and completely misinformed.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 14, 2019, 05:39:20 PM
So do you concede there is a possibility that it could have come from Madeleine? There was no body found in the Mathews who you insist on comparing it with.
It’s a possibility though highly unlikely IMO.  You on the other hand seem utterly convinced by the dog alerts.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2019, 05:40:25 PM
So do you concede there is a possibility that it could have come from Madeleine? There was no body found in the Mathews who you insist on comparing it with.

we have to concede things we cannot prove.......its possible theres a loch ness monster....I think its highly...highly unlikeley the alerts were to Madeleines cadaver....ive got my views on the alerts based on evidence...and i think very little of them
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2019, 05:42:16 PM
According to the police report, there was cadaver odour present and the dog was correct in the Mathew's house. Another FACT. Is there any evidence in Madeleine's case that you are comparing it with, that the odour came from somebody else's dead body?

oerhaps it did...there doesnt have to have been a cadaver in the appt
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 14, 2019, 05:43:51 PM
I'm more convinced by the father's two completely versions of the last he claims to have seen his alive if the truth be told. But good on you! Duly noted!
What have you duly noted?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2019, 05:48:09 PM
You have NOT, I repeat, you have NOT shown that 'Grime did NOT say Eddie has has never made a, false alert in 200 cases' because you missed out the previous sentence that reads, "'False' positives are always a possibility; to date Eddie has NOT so indicated operationally or in training.

Come on, get real, eh!
the 200 case searches clearly refers to foodstuffs......as do the false alerts statements imo...if they dont Grime has made a massive error. He cannot possibly say no false alerts unless  every case eddie alerted to previouskly the alert was confirmed by forensic evidence,,,,,...what are the chances that every alert eddie has ever made has been confirmed  by forensic evidence...but the 11 we know about in LUZ were not.... i smell a rat
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2019, 05:48:57 PM
I'm more convinced by the father's two completely versions of the last he claims to have seen his alive if the truth be told. But good on you! Duly noted!

gerry didnt give two different accounts ...imo
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on June 14, 2019, 05:55:54 PM
Time taken out of the investigation into a NOT a missing child. They had all the time in the world, don't you think? What about the time Operation Grange has being taking out of the investigation. You reckon they have been chasing one lead for seven years.

Have you never wondered what Shannon's fate might have been without her recovery? 

She was confined indoors obeying a set of written rules.  When found she had been secreted in the base of a divan bed.

She had been drugged ... benzodiazepines were found in her system.

She had been tethered to a beam in the loft and her movement restricted to the toilet while her 'jailer' was out of the house.

Please desist from your insistence on your definition of what constitutes a missing or imprisoned person ... in my opinion it reflects badly on you ... but of more importance as far as I am concerned I believe it also reflects badly on the forum.

The disgusting definition you give for 'NOT missing' encompasses the horrors endured by Elisabeth Fritzl for one ... I'm sure even you must see how erroneous that is and desist from this line of deliberate nonsense.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 14, 2019, 06:45:42 PM
You believe a lot of things, none of which have anything to do with me.
That was a non-sequitur if ever there was one.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2019, 06:49:27 PM
The files and Lee Rainbow say he did. FACTS!

I dont beleive lee rainbow said what you think he did either...whats your source...do you have  a first hand account
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 14, 2019, 06:49:45 PM
The files and Lee Rainbow say he did. FACTS!
Please list all the differences, there must be loads to make one account completely different from the other
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on June 14, 2019, 06:52:09 PM
Didn't they prove Karen Mathews knew where her daughter was all along when she reported her daughter missing at her court case? How much more proof do you need?

Can you prove this concerning Kate McCann?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 14, 2019, 06:55:02 PM
Only if you tell me where you got the 300,000/1 from?
google it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2019, 06:55:16 PM
The files and Lee Rainbow say he did. FACTS!

if you claim it as a fact you need to provide  a cite for what rainbow said
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on June 14, 2019, 06:59:45 PM

This now bordering on Libel.  And I am not having it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2019, 07:12:29 PM
Only if you tell me where you got the 300,000/1 from?

what do you think the odds are of maddie having been abducted
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 14, 2019, 07:14:38 PM
The quote does not support the statement that Eddie did not give a false alert in 200 case searches..
Cheeky Monkey - do you see your mistake here?  There were specific reasons attached to Grime's claim for Eddie.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 14, 2019, 07:21:05 PM
It begins "Statistics vary" not the most comprehensive statistic then is it? But I suppose it's slightly better than professor McCann's 100,000,000/1 shot.

However I'll accept it on this occasion.

Part One." In this way, at about 21.05 the witness came to the Club, entered the room using his respective key, the door being locked, went to his children's bedroom and checked that the twins were fine, as was Madeleine. "He then went to the WC" where he remained for a few moments, left, and bumped into a person he had played tennis with and who had a child's push chair, he was also British, he had a short conversation with him, "returning after that to the restaurant." At about 21.30 his friend Matt (member of the group) went to the apartment, where his children were and on his way went to the witness' apartment, entering by means of a glass sliding door that was always unlocked and was located laterally to the building. He entered the bedroom, he observed the twins and he did not even notice whether Madeleine was there"

"At about 22.00 it was his wife Kate who went to check on the children. She entered the apartment by the door using the key and saw immediately that the door to the children's bedroom was completely open, the window was also open, the blinds were raised and the curtains were drawn open."


HE REMEMBERS the patio door is unlocked. HE REMEMBERS him AND his wife walking past it and entering a locked FRONT door. Completely different to the version HE REMEMBERS on May 10th.

Part two to follow! Be patient, it's Friday night.
So that’s one difference, the one you’ve continually been banging on about for days.  Lookig forward to hearing all about the numerous other differences later.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 14, 2019, 07:22:28 PM
No one is denying Eddie was a well trained dog... But grime never said Eddie did not make a false alert in 200 case searches.. It would be impossible fir Grime to make such a statement unless every alert resulted in finding human remains.   .....blood.. Teeth... Etc
Each time an alert is made it could be to a singular or multiple causes.  E.g. if a girl was found 2 hours after dying sitting on a chair that had been purchased from a deceased estate where the old man had passed away for two days before anyone noticed. 
If a cadaver dog alerted in that situation you would not be able to say for sure which cadaver the dog was alerting to.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 14, 2019, 07:23:15 PM
I didn't say anyone could prove that concerning Kate and neither did you. The comment you were replying to was not about Kate or Madeleine McCann, it's was about Karen Mathews dishonestly alleging that her daughter had went missing. Despite of Brietta's beliefs, it was proven in a court of law that she was NOT missing and her mother did in fact know where she was the entire time.
Shannon Matthews was missing.  She was missing from school, she was missing from her home, her father had no idea where she was, nor did her siblings, her granparents, her neighbours, nor did the police.  She was missing. F she was not missing prior to her discovery by the police hidden in a divan, what was she?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 14, 2019, 07:28:50 PM
Coooeee,, that's two differences!
List them.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 14, 2019, 07:29:35 PM
What physical evidence confirmed the alerts in the Zapata case was the question?
Good point - a confession is not physical evidence but I think Grime didn't say physical evidence but corroborating evidence.  A confession of taking a body through an area eliciting an alert would be corroboration IMO.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 14, 2019, 07:33:19 PM
That's what grime says... Physical evidence..
Does he say "physical evidence"?  Would a confession not be sufficient?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2019, 07:39:36 PM
Good point - a confession is not physical evidence but I think Grime didn't say physical evidence but corroborating evidence.  A confession of taking a body through an area eliciting an alert would be corroboration IMO.

this is what Grime said in his witness statement..


Therefore in this particular case, as no human remains were located, the only
alert indications that may become corroborated are those that the CSI dog
indicated by forensic laboratory analysis.


according to that it takes physical remains bring found at the time to corroborate the alerts
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2019, 07:44:10 PM
So a strong confession by the parents would be rejected by the courts? Go figure!

the confession would be the evidence...the alerts would be incidental
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2019, 07:47:58 PM
I don't, no. Martin Grime: "'False' positives are always a possibility; to date Eddie has NOT so indicated
operationally or in training."

Not so indicated cannot be interpreted in anyway to mean sometimes so indicated. Either operationally or in training.

What mistake do you see?

grime said this in his Rog...

'Based upon your experience with the dogs, can you specify whether the positive signals given by them have always matched the scientific results''
I cannot. In this case, for example, not all the alert signals have been investigated by the appropriate agencies in order to provide forensic comparations, in spite of indications to the contrary. It also should be taken into account that the procedures for forensic testing are still less discriminating than the system of dogs' smell.[/fon


grime does not know if an lert is false or not without forensic testing...he therefore cannot state the dog has never had a false positive unless evry alert has been forensically corrobortaed
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2019, 07:48:31 PM
So they wouldn't need physical evidence to confirm them?

the alerts would not be corroborated  by a confession
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on June 14, 2019, 07:51:24 PM
So a strong confession by the parents would be rejected by the courts? Go figure!

This Comment is nonsense.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 14, 2019, 07:52:41 PM
We have no way of knowing what the dogs actually alerted to as no body was found, nor any trace of one.
No. Yes - DNA was discovered.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on June 14, 2019, 07:53:44 PM
Shannon Matthews was missing.  She was missing from school, she was missing from her home, her father had no idea where she was, nor did her siblings, her granparents, her neighbours, nor did the police.  She was missing. F she was not missing prior to her discovery by the police hidden in a divan, what was she?

Hidden.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2019, 07:54:09 PM
He certainly states the dog 'has NOT so indicated (falsely) operationally or in training.'

So when and where does he say the dog had EVER given a false positive alert?

If he stated taht the dog has never given a false alert he has made a massive error...he cannot know an alert is true or false unless every alert the dog has ever made has been corroborated..its simple logic
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2019, 07:54:48 PM
No DNA was discovered.

dna would not prove anything either way
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2019, 07:56:46 PM
A confession certainly came in handy for confirming the dog alerts in the Zapata case.

we know the dogs will alert without the presence of a cadaver ..
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 14, 2019, 08:13:20 PM
I don't, no. Martin Grime: "'False' positives are always a possibility; to date Eddie has NOT so indicated
operationally or in training."

Not so indicated cannot be interpreted in anyway to mean sometimes so indicated. Either operationally or in training.

What mistake do you see?
Well you are treating what Martin Grime has said as some sort of scientific paper on the subject of false positives.
 Martin Grime: "'False' positives are always a possibility; to date Eddie has NOT so indicated
operationally or in training."
Where is the evidence for that?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on June 14, 2019, 08:16:58 PM
Hidden.

Let's put a stop this nonsense before it gets any more ridiculous than it already is.

Matthews was convicted of Perverting the course of Justice ~ false imprisonment ~ and kidnapping

Just in case anyone missed that ... she was given a prison sentence for KIDNAPPING amongst other crimes.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 14, 2019, 08:20:03 PM
I don't know what you would be able to do with a cadaver dog Rob, not being a dog trainer but I do know that 'has NOT so indicated' falsely cannot be interpreted into has 'sometimes so indicated' falsely.
It is all to do with proof and level of proof, and knowledge.

I'm sure there were many places where Eddie alerted but there was no apparent reason for the alert.

But Mr Grime  couldn't see any meat, or roadkill etc nearby to suggest it was a false positive to that category of causes.
Eddie alerted near the wardrobe.  No roadkill near there nor any pork products.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 14, 2019, 08:22:24 PM
this is what Grime said in his witness statement..


Therefore in this particular case, as no human remains were located, the only
alert indications that may become corroborated are those that the CSI dog
indicated by forensic laboratory analysis.


according to that it takes physical remains bring found at the time to corroborate the alerts
But the CSI dog is not Eddie but Keela.  Two different dogs.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on June 14, 2019, 08:23:14 PM
Let's put a stop this nonsense before it gets any more ridiculous than it already is.

Matthews was convicted of Perverting the course of Justice ~ false imprisonment ~ and kidnapping

Just in case anyone missed that ... she was given a prison sentence for KIDNAPPING amongst other crimes.

...and she knew where Shannon was.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2019, 08:23:57 PM
But the CSI dog is not Eddie but Keela.  Two different dogs.

Im aware of that....i understand exactly what grime meant and said
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2019, 08:26:19 PM
I'm treating for it is, a report that contains information. Part of that information states; "'False' positives are always a possibility; TO DATE Eddie HAS NOT so indicated operationally or in training."

TO DATE EDDIE HAD NOT SO INDICATED. Can't be much clearer than that can it?

Ive shown that Grime cannot possibly know if all eddies positive alerts are genuine....he may have been a little imprecise with is choice of words
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 14, 2019, 08:29:29 PM
dna would not prove anything either way
What I'm meaning is that Grime isn't going to call it a false positive alert if human DNA is found.  It proves a point to Grime if no one else.  He is keeping a score on his dog's performance.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2019, 08:31:53 PM
Prove it and then I'll believe you?

because grime also said this.....


Based upon your experience with the dogs, can you specify whether the positive signals given by them have always matched the scientific results''
I cannot.



and unless every previous alert was corrobortaed...all 200 case searches ...then the statement cannot be true
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2019, 08:34:03 PM
What I'm meaning is that Grime isn't going to call it a false positive alert if human DNA is found.  It proves a point to Grime if no one else.  He is keeping a score on his dog's performance.

and I would say you are totally wrong...dna does not corroborate a cadaver dog alert.......do you have  acite that dna was found at every previous alert
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Eleanor on June 14, 2019, 08:35:03 PM
Let's put a stop this nonsense before it gets any more ridiculous than it already is.

Matthews was convicted of Perverting the course of Justice ~ false imprisonment ~ and kidnapping

Just in case anyone missed that ... she was given a prison sentence for KIDNAPPING amongst other crimes.

Let us not forget how Karen Matthews was held to be the epitome of how the parent of an abducted child would behave, with her sobbing and clutching her daughter's teddy bear.

This is how the Mother of an abducted child would behave, they all said.  Presuming that I remember correctly.  So I don't think that this is a good one to bring up.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on June 14, 2019, 08:39:33 PM
Let us not forget how Karen Matthews was held to be the epitome of how the parent of an abducted child would behave, with her sobbing and clutching her daughter's teddy bear.

This is how the Mother of an abducted child would behave, they all said.  Presuming that I remember correctly.  So I don't think that this is a good one to bring up.

Said who?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 14, 2019, 08:40:12 PM
I'm treating for it is, a report that contains information. Part of that information states; "'False' positives are always a possibility; TO DATE Eddie HAS NOT so indicated operationally or in training."

TO DATE EDDIE HAD NOT SO INDICATED. Can't be much clearer than that can it?
But there is no science behind it.  It is just his general observation of the situations he has been in.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 14, 2019, 08:40:37 PM
...and she knew where Shannon was.
So what?  Many missing children have been abducted by one of their parents in custodial battles.  Their names and faces Ppear on Missing Persons websites.  Are they not missing because one parent knows their whereabouts?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 14, 2019, 08:43:03 PM
Said who?
Not you I bet.  You knew instantly that Karen Matthews had faked the abduction didn’t you?  Yes, I knew it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on June 14, 2019, 08:45:54 PM
Not you I bet.  You knew instantly that Karen Matthews had faked the abduction didn’t you?  Yes, I knew it.

Yes, you're right. She didn't convince me.

I always suspect the parents first, have done ever since Maddie disappeared.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 14, 2019, 08:46:18 PM
and I would say you are totally wrong...dna does not corroborate a cadaver dog alert.......do you have  acite that dna was found at every previous alert
I'm not claiming that so don't even think of asking for a cite for it.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2019, 08:48:51 PM
What I'm meaning is that Grime isn't going to call it a false positive alert if human DNA is found.  It proves a point to Grime if no one else.  He is keeping a score on his dog's performance.

is this your opinion of what grime is thinking... I dont see how you can speak for what grime thinks
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 14, 2019, 08:50:58 PM
is this your opinion of what grime is thinking... I dont see how you can speak for what grime thinks
Who else was keeping the score?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2019, 08:53:22 PM
Who else was keeping the score?

i dont see how you can speak for grime....I dont think grime would class dna as corroboration...im sure he wouldnt....100% sure...dna wa sfound behind the sofa.....yet grime said the alert was not corrobortaed....that proves me right
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: John on June 14, 2019, 08:54:34 PM
Yes, you're right. She didn't convince me.

I always suspect the parents first, have done ever since Maddie disappeared.

Police always scrutinize family members first in any potential abduction as history has shown us that most child disappearances involve someone known to the child.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on June 14, 2019, 08:59:13 PM
Police always scrutinize family members first in any potential abduction as history has shown us that most child disappearances involve someone known to the child.

The PJ didn't scrutinise the McCann's early or vigorously enough imo
They were under pressure to swallow the abduction narrative.
Police forces around the world will have learned a lot from the PJs mistakes imo
There will never be another case like Maddies.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 14, 2019, 09:01:01 PM
Yeah, of course, even though she wasn't even in the same country as Ben when he disappeared.  *%87
Yes she was.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2019, 09:01:55 PM
IMO you are 100% wrong.  Grime did use DNA as corroboration.

cite please....i have given a cite where dna was found and GRime said no corroboraton
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on June 14, 2019, 09:09:12 PM
The PJ didn't scrutinise the McCann's early or vigorously enough imo
They were under pressure to swallow the abduction narrative.
Police forces around the world will have learned a lot from the PJs mistakes imo
There will never be another case like Maddies.

I am sure police forces throughout the world will have learned from Madeleine's disappearance ... none more so then the current investigators of the Policia Judiciaria and Scotland Yard.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 14, 2019, 09:11:20 PM
cite please....i have given a cite where dna was found and GRime said no corroboraton
I have given a cite for Grime saying DNA was corroboration.  In fact we had a thread discussing what Grime wanted for corroboration.

""the 200 case searches clearly refers to foodstuffs......as do the false alerts statements imo...if they dont Grime has made a massive error."

Each of those bits are wrong.
"the 200 case searches clearly refers to foodstuffs...  [WRONG]
..as do the false alerts statements imo...  [WRONG]
if they dont Grime has made a massive error."  [WRONG]

Do you think linking 3 wrong statements together makes it right?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2019, 09:13:25 PM
I have given a cite for Grime saying DNA was corroboration.  In fact we had a thread discussing what Grime wanted for corroboration.

""the 200 case searches clearly refers to foodstuffs......as do the false alerts statements imo...if they dont Grime has made a massive error."

Each of those bits are wrong.
"the 200 case searches clearly refers to foodstuffs...  [WRONG]
..as do the false alerts statements imo...  [WRONG]
if they dont Grime has made a massive error."  [WRONG]

Do you think linking 3 wrong statements together makes it right?

I have not seen any cite for grime saying dna was corroboration...when was this ...could you repost..

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2019, 09:15:39 PM
I have given a cite for Grime saying DNA was corroboration.  In fact we had a thread discussing what Grime wanted for corroboration.

""the 200 case searches clearly refers to foodstuffs......as do the false alerts statements imo...if they dont Grime has made a massive error."

Each of those bits are wrong.
"the 200 case searches clearly refers to foodstuffs...  [WRONG]
..as do the false alerts statements imo...  [WRONG]
if they dont Grime has made a massive error."  [WRONG]

Do you think linking 3 wrong statements together makes it right?

In six years of operational deployment in over 200
criminal case searches the dog has never alerted to meat based and
specifically pork foodstuffs designed for human consumption


total proof that the 200 case searches refers to foodstuffs...Im right
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on June 14, 2019, 09:16:38 PM
Yes she was.

My mistake. She wasn't with Ben when he disappeared, she was at work.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2019, 09:18:07 PM
Just make sure what comes out is true, unambiguous and accurate.

it always is,...cite for grime saying the cadaver alerts are corroborated by dna...I think you are mistaken and not accurate..we know for a fact dna was found and the alerts in the apartmnet and the car not corroborated
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on June 14, 2019, 09:20:25 PM
Just make sure what comes out is true, unambiguous and accurate.

I find Davel's posts to be all of that ... just as I find yours to be.  No problem with the clear and concise posts of you both while welcoming the differing styles.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 14, 2019, 09:22:39 PM
it always is,...cite for grime saying the cadaver alerts are corroborated by dna...I think you are mistaken and not accurate
Well where is your cite?

I find Davel's posts to be all of that ... just as I find yours to be.  No problem with the clear and concise posts of you both while welcoming the differing styles.

Well did Martin Grime accept DNA as corroboration?  - are you willing to be the arbitrator on this one?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2019, 09:25:07 PM
Well where is your cite?

Well did Martin Grime accept DNA as corroboration?  - are you willing to be the arbitrator on this one?

you have made  a claim...you need to provide a cite. Ive alraedy provided a cite this evening that contradicts your claim...brietta cannot be an arbiter...a cite is required.. i dont think you will find one
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 14, 2019, 09:27:46 PM
you have made  a claim...you need to provide a cite. Ive alraedy provided a cite this evening that contradicts your claim...brietta cannot be an arbiter...a cite is required.. i dont think you will find one
Providing a cite is also providing a source.  You quoted some words but what is the source document?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2019, 09:29:19 PM
Providing a cite is also providing a source.  You quoted some words but what is the source document?

Therefore in this particular case, as no human remains were located, the only
alert indications that may become corroborated are those that the CSI dog
indicated by forensic laboratory analysis.


www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

so wheres your cite...I guarantee you will not be able to provide one

Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on June 14, 2019, 09:31:40 PM
Could you tell me Brietta, do you think it was possible for Kate and Gerry McCann to be under the impression they mighten get into the tapas on Thursday May 3?

Frankly my dear ... I do not give a damn.  What I care about moderately is that one day members will suddenly decide to start posting On Topic ... that would be good.  But what I do insist on is that however stupid or even nasty some posts may be ... that they are not libellous.
That will do me just fine.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2019, 09:32:01 PM
Mark Saunokonoko states in the podcast that Martin Grime said in an email that DNA confirmed the alerts. He didn't say which dog though, whether it was both or one or the other.

so MS claims that dna corrobortaes the alerts...yet Grime doesnt say that...so no cite from grime...thanks

dna clearly does not corrobortae the cadaver alerts as Ive shown
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 14, 2019, 09:35:21 PM
Therefore in this particular case, as no human remains were located, the only
alert indications that may become corroborated are those that the CSI dog
indicated by forensic laboratory analysis.


www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

so wheres your cite...I guarantee you will not be able to provide one
What do you think forensic laboratory analysis means?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2019, 09:36:25 PM
What do you think forensic laboratory analysis means?

I asked for  a cite Rob.....please provide as per forum rules..the words you quoted clearly apply to the csi dog...not the cadaver dog...
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 14, 2019, 09:39:29 PM
I asked for  a cite Rob.....please provide as per forum rules..the words you quoted clearly apply to the csi dog...not the cadaver dog
forensic laboratory analysis means looking for human DNA.    Your cite could well be my cite as well. 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on June 14, 2019, 09:40:00 PM
Absolutely not. @2:36 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFL6Jown0LE

There's no doubt about it.

They didn't know if they were going to get into the Tapas that night? As they were booked in for the week how could that have happened?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2019, 09:41:03 PM
forensic laboratory analysis means looking for human DNA.    Your cite could well be my cite as well.

that quote refers to the CSI dog rob...NOT the cadaver dog...so you have still failed to provide  a cite...as i expected
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 14, 2019, 09:43:04 PM
My mistake. She wasn't with Ben when he disappeared, she was at work.
deleted
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 14, 2019, 09:43:44 PM
"Every alert can be subject to interpretation, it has to be confirmed. The signals of an alert are only just that. Once the alert has been given by the dog, it is up to the investigator/forensic scientist to locate, identify and scientifically provide the evidence of DNA, etc. "
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2019, 09:48:27 PM
"Every alert can be subject to interpretation, it has to be confirmed. The signals of an alert are only just that. Once the alert has been given by the dog, it is up to the investigator/forensic scientist to locate, identify and scientifically provide the evidence of DNA, etc. "
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

dna etc...not just dna...dna on its own does not corrobortae a cadaver alert...grime is quite clear on this...perhaps you could expalin how dna would confirm death
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 14, 2019, 09:56:28 PM
dna etc...not just dna...dna on its own does not corrobortae a cadaver alert...grime is quite clear on this...perhaps you could expalin how dna would confirm death
I never claimed a cadaver alert  confirms death.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 14, 2019, 09:59:04 PM
dna etc...not just dna...dna on its own does not corrobortae a cadaver alert...grime is quite clear on this...perhaps you could expalin how dna would confirm death
I was exploring the meaning of "etc" in the thread on corroborating evidence.  What did he mean "DNA, etc"?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2019, 10:06:09 PM
I never claimed a cadaver alert  confirms death.

i said could you expalin how dna confirms a cadaver alert
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2019, 10:08:04 PM
I was exploring the meaning of "etc" in the thread on corroborating evidence.  What did he mean "DNA, etc"?

Grime said human remains...dna would tell us whose remains they were
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 14, 2019, 10:17:28 PM
Grime said human remains...dna would tell us whose remains they were
There is no scientific test for cadaver odour.
"Therefore in this particular case, as no human remains were located, the only
alert indications that may become corroborated are those that the CSI dog
indicated by forensic laboratory analysis."

It is a chain of events If the cadaver dog alerts and in that area the CSI dog alerts, and that spot is forensically analysed, and DNA is found.  That seems to be what MG would call corroborated. 

OK you and I might think differently.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2019, 10:28:12 PM
There is no scientific test for cadaver odour.
"Therefore in this particular case, as no human remains were located, the only
alert indications that may become corroborated are those that the CSI dog
indicated by forensic laboratory analysis."

It is a chain of events If the cadaver dog alerts and in that area the CSI dog alerts, and that spot is forensically analysed, and DNA is found.  That seems to be what MG would call corroborated. 

OK you and I might think differently.

I dont see how dna corrobortaes cadaver odour and I dont think grime thinks it does either
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on June 14, 2019, 10:31:34 PM
I'll try again. do you think it was possible for Kate and Gerry McCann to be under the impression they mighten get into the tapas on Thursday May 3?

If you do not wish to answer, that's fine.

I have already given you my answer.  Consider it reiterated.  Draw a line under it now or I may begin to think you are harassing me just because you think you can ... which just is not so.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: sadie on June 14, 2019, 11:26:44 PM

The quote below has now been wiped for some reason, but it  is mentioned in Gunits post a little later


Quote from: Cheeky Monkey on Today at 09:13:49 PM

    Absolutely not. @2:36 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFL6Jown0LE

    There's no doubt about it

- Finish Quote



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFL6Jown0LE



Starting @ 0.36, Is that Kates voice or another voice dubbed in?

Seems too high pitched and the mouth sometimes seems not to syncraniize with the words.

My hubby, like me, instantly thought that it ddn't sound likke Kate



Am I right or am I wrong ?    What do others think?
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 14, 2019, 11:52:35 PM
I dont see how dna corrobortaes cadaver odour and I dont think grime thinks it does either
Here is the link to the thread discussing corroboration of cadaver alerts. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9966.msg479091#msg479091 "What evidence would confirm a cadaver dog alert?"
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: faithlilly on June 16, 2019, 04:15:52 PM

The quote below has now been wiped for some reason, but it  is mentioned in Gunits post a little later


Quote from: Cheeky Monkey on Today at 09:13:49 PM

    Absolutely not. @2:36 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFL6Jown0LE

    There's no doubt about it

- Finish Quote



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFL6Jown0LE



Starting @ 0.36, Is that Kates voice or another voice dubbed in?

Seems too high pitched and the mouth sometimes seems not to syncraniize with the words.

My hubby, like me, instantly thought that it ddn't sound likke Kate



Am I right or am I wrong ?    What do mothers think?

I had never seen that video. Thank you as it raises some very pertinent questions re Madeleine’s last night.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 16, 2019, 08:43:34 PM
The quote below has now been wiped for some reason, but it  is mentioned in Gunits post a little later


Quote from: Cheeky Monkey on Today at 09:13:49 PM

    Absolutely not. @2:36 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFL6Jown0LE

    There's no doubt about it

- Finish Quote



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFL6Jown0LE



Starting @ 0.36, Is that Kates voice or another voice dubbed in?

Seems too high pitched and the mouth sometimes seems not to syncraniize with the words.

My hubby, like me, instantly thought that it ddn't sound likke Kate



Am I right or am I wrong ?    What do others think?

You are wrong. That is Kate talking.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on June 16, 2019, 08:54:06 PM
You are wrong. That is Kate talking.

The problem for us nowadays is that there has been so much misrepresentation about everything relating to Madeleine's disappearance that nothing is to be trusted.

Those opposed to the McCanns have left no stone unturned.

Wasn't there an 'undercover' video clip hot from the cameras of Mrs Fenn's hairdressers as one of the first?


http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10801.msg536857#msg536857
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 16, 2019, 09:01:31 PM
Does anyone know what interview those video clips of Kate and Gerry come from?  McCanns..crying story or crying wolf?  https://youtu.be/qFL6Jown0LE
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Brietta on June 16, 2019, 09:11:35 PM
Does anyone know what interview those video clips of Kate and Gerry come from?  McCanns..crying story or crying wolf?  https://youtu.be/qFL6Jown0LE

Donald Trump's Nancy Pelosi 'shallowfake' must have started off bona fide at some stage ... and his technicians managed it all without ubiquitous accompanying 'idiot boards' instructing people what to think.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 16, 2019, 09:37:16 PM
Donald Trump's Nancy Pelosi 'shallowfake' must have started off bona fide at some stage ... and his technicians managed it all without ubiquitous accompanying 'idiot boards' instructing people what to think.
That really didn't help me. 
"Does anyone know what interview those video clips of Kate and Gerry come from?  McCanns..crying story or crying wolf?  https://youtu.be/qFL6Jown0LE "  That is what I want to know.
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: G-Unit on June 16, 2019, 10:41:49 PM
That really didn't help me. 
"Does anyone know what interview those video clips of Kate and Gerry come from?  McCanns..crying story or crying wolf?  https://youtu.be/qFL6Jown0LE "  That is what I want to know.

I believe it came from Emma Loach's documentary which is no longer available for some reason. Here is a transcript.

The McCanns on ITV1, 29 April 2008
https://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id453.htm
 
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: carlymichelle on June 18, 2019, 03:57:14 AM
https://www.9news.com.au/world/madeleine-mccann-what-happened-to-maddie-theories-latest-news/2821b220-4512-4928-b619-27bcf7c54cf9?fbclid=IwAR2Ab6MQV4pGhrB3O2-mdWLZojKIEuSLZjW0ucsMupdM_0MuNhLaTym85kU

t has been more than 12 years since Madeleine Beth McCann disappeared.
Nine.com.au's multi-episode podcast investigation Maddie shone a light on a number of curious and vexing issues about the world's most famous cold case.
Here are three questions that could actually be answered very easily, if the will from police forces and key people is there.
Answering these questions could reveal potential crucial information about what happened to Madeleine on that 2007 family holiday to Portugal.
British girl Madeleine McCann vanished from the resort town of Praia da Luz in Portugal in May 2007, while on holiday with her family.
British girl Madeleine McCann vanished from the resort town of Praia da Luz in Portugal in May 2007, while on holiday with her family. (AAP)
Why have Operation Grange and Portugal's Policia Judiciaria not taken up a remarkable offer made in the Maddie podcast to solve 18 inconclusive DNA samples?
It seems so straightforward.
There are 18 DNA samples potentially loaded with clues about what happened to Madeleine. There's a scientist with a proven international track record for solving precisely that kind of challenging and previously indecipherable evidence. Give him the samples to analyse.
Related Articles

    'Gamechanger' in Madeleine McCann mystery waits patiently while cold case continues to stagnate
    'Concealed' police statements impeded investigation into potential paedophile ring link, ex Maddie detective claims
    'X' marks alleged spot of disputed key location on night Maddie vanished

As exclusively revealed in the Maddie podcast, one of the world's top DNA scientists, Dr Mark Perlin claims he can have results back on those 18 samples in less than two weeks. He's also offered to run those tests for Scotland Yard at no cost.
Scotland Yard's Operation Grange have sat on Dr Perlin's remarkable offer for over a year. Portugal's Policia Judiciaria also appear disinterested, having ignored Dr Perlin's approach for over a month.
Why?
Dr Perlin's advanced testing methods, based on computational software called TrueAllele, has overturned a number of wrongful convictions in the US. It has been used successfully in US state and federal court, and around the world.
In fact, for around 20 years Dr Perlin's lab Cybergenetics has been assisting the UK police for 20 years; he has successfully analysed previously "inconclusive" DNA evidence in major UK crimes.
So why not use Dr Perlin in the case of Madeleine McCann?
Dr Perlin has told Nine.com.au national crime labs are sometimes wary of his groundbreaking DNA technology, as it can expose flawed tests and mistaken results; those kind of revelations can be embarrassing for national crime agencies and their reputations.
The 18 DNA samples isolated by Nine.com.au and Dr Perlin were ruled inconclusive in 2007 because British testing methods at the time were inadequate and lacked the necessary sophistication.
The DNA evidence relates to key samples taken from inside apartment 5A and the boot compartment of a rental car hired 25 days after Madeleine went missing.
A cadaver dog team alerted in both those locations, although there is controversy about the reliability of cadaver dogs, which is why investigators consider alerts must be supplemented by additional evidence.
It is hard to understand why Operation Grange refuse to even acknowledge Dr Perlin's offer.
In the final episode of Maddie, Gerry McCann and the official Find Madeleine campaign were also notified of Dr Perlin's offer. There has been no reply, so far.
Kate McCann, the mother of the missing British girl Madeleine McCann, looks at a poster showing her missing daughter during a press conference on June 6, 2007 in Berlin.
Kate McCann, the mother of the missing British girl Madeleine McCann, looks at a poster showing her missing daughter during a press conference on June 6, 2007 in Berlin. (Getty)
Have Operation Grange interviewed Kate and Gerry McCann or the Tapas 7? If not, why not?
In 2013, Scotland Yard launched Operation Grange, a significant strike force to investigate what happened to Madeleine in Praia da Luz.
Operation Grange have remained firmly tight-lipped about the investigation, revealing little to nothing about the leads they are chasing.
In 2017, Mark Rowley, then Scotland Yard assistant commissioner, publicly addressed questions about whether his detectives had ever formally questioned Kate and Gerry McCann since the launch of Operation Grange.
No, was Rowley's reply.
Rowley added that the Portuguese police had dealt with the McCanns and the Tapas 7 during their original 14-month investigation, which started in 2007.
It is unclear if any of the Tapas 7, including David Payne, the last person to ever see Madeleine alive outside of her parents, and Matt Oldfield, who entered apartment 5A 30 minutes before she was reported missing, have ever been questioned by cops at Scotland Yard.
Former Scotland Yard detectives and police officers that Nine.com.au spoke to in episode nine of Maddie expressed some surprise if the McCanns had not been questioned by Operation Grange police. They also criticised Operation Grange's perceived failure to not begin its investigation with no preconceived ideas about might or might not have happened.
The McCanns and their friends may be able to help police catch the offender. Any information from them may help advance the investigation, or help to finally rule out aspects of the investigation. If they haven’t been questioned already, they should be.
Last month it was confirmed Operation Grange had been funded to the tune of another $550,000 in tax payer funds, taking total funding to more than $20m.
Gerry and Kate McCann, the parents of the missing 3-year-old girl Madeleine McCann, walk with their twins outside their resort apartment on May 11 2007, in Praia da Luz, southern Portugal.
Gerry and Kate McCann, the parents of the missing 3-year-old girl Madeleine McCann, walk with their twins outside their resort apartment on May 11 2007, in Praia da Luz, southern Portugal. (AAP)
Why did a reconstruction of May 3 not occur, and has still not taken place?
On a night of confusing events, one thing is very clear - a reconstruction of all the movements made by Kate and Gerry McCann and the Tapas 7 on the night of May 3, when Madeleine was reported missing, could yield vital clues.
As revealed in episodes one and two of Maddie, from the early evening, there are so many moving parts and people in play that it became very challenging for police to establish if and how the accounts of key players stacked up and held together.
According to the McCanns and their friends, adults were leaving the dinner table at the nearby tapas bar at 30 minute intervals, sometimes as regularly as every 15 minutes, to go check on the children.
The McCann's apartment, at the end of a five-storey block, was at best one minute walk from the restaurant. The other apartments were marginally further, including one holiday unit (where the Payne family stayed) located up a flight of stairs on the first level.
In April 2008, Portuguese police tried in vain to run a reconstitution of the night of May 3 to see if everyone's account of the night and various journeys they made all matched up.
But negotiations failed.
By 2008 the McCanns and their friends were all back in the UK. Documentation in the official police files reveals a chain of emails that were sent back and forth from the group to police. Concerns were expressed about flying back to Portugal, about privacy, a potential press frenzy and Kate and Gerry being named formal suspects.
In the end, what could have been a vital reconstruction assisting the effort to find Maddie never happened.
Portuguese police appeared to have questions around Jane Tanner’s sighting of a potential abductor with a child on the night of May 3; and how she walked straight past Gerry McCann and another Englishman, Jeremy Wilkins, without either man seeing her. These scenarios are explored in detail in episode two of Maddie.
A reconstruction could have helped answer some of this, as well as clarifying events earlier in the day when family friend David Payne visited Kate and the kids in apartment 5A.
Although there appeared to be reluctance from the Tapas 7 to return to Portugal at the request of police, Portuguese detectives must probably bear some responsibility for not forcing the issue of a reconstruction much sooner after Madeleine vanished, instead of the aborted effort in April 2008.
Portuguese police were also criticised for not separating and interviewing Kate and Gerry McCann when they were first questioned by detectives in Portimao Police Station.
LISTEN TO LATEST EPISODES OF MADDIE NOW 
Maps, graphics, stories and all episodes of Maddie here: nine.com.au/maddie
Madeleine McCann multi-episode investigation of evidence about case
Madeleine McCann multi-episode investigation of evidence about case (Nine)
© Nine Digital Pty Ltd 2019
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 18, 2019, 12:25:44 PM
This interview came up - "Australian podcaster talks new suspect in Madeleine McCann case" https://youtu.be/2rMWX5G-iB4
Title: Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
Post by: Billy Whizz Fan Club on July 19, 2019, 12:53:03 AM
https://www.9news.com.au/world/madeleine-mccann-what-happened-to-maddie-theories-latest-news/2821b220-4512-4928-b619-27bcf7c54cf9?fbclid=IwAR2Ab6MQV4pGhrB3O2-mdWLZojKIEuSLZjW0ucsMupdM_0MuNhLaTym85kU

t has been more than 12 years since Madeleine Beth McCann disappeared.
Nine.com.au's multi-episode podcast investigation Maddie shone a light on a number of curious and vexing issues about the world's most famous cold case.
Here are three questions that could actually be answered very easily, if the will from police forces and key people is there.
Answering these questions could reveal potential crucial information about what happened to Madeleine on that 2007 family holiday to Portugal.
British girl Madeleine McCann vanished from the resort town of Praia da Luz in Portugal in May 2007, while on holiday with her family.
British girl Madeleine McCann vanished from the resort town of Praia da Luz in Portugal in May 2007, while on holiday with her family. (AAP)
Why have Operation Grange and Portugal's Policia Judiciaria not taken up a remarkable offer made in the Maddie podcast to solve 18 inconclusive DNA samples?
It seems so straightforward.
There are 18 DNA samples potentially loaded with clues about what happened to Madeleine. There's a scientist with a proven international track record for solving precisely that kind of challenging and previously indecipherable evidence. Give him the samples to analyse.
Related Articles

    'Gamechanger' in Madeleine McCann mystery waits patiently while cold case continues to stagnate
    'Concealed' police statements impeded investigation into potential paedophile ring link, ex Maddie detective claims
    'X' marks alleged spot of disputed key location on night Maddie vanished

As exclusively revealed in the Maddie podcast, one of the world's top DNA scientists, Dr Mark Perlin claims he can have results back on those 18 samples in less than two weeks. He's also offered to run those tests for Scotland Yard at no cost.
Scotland Yard's Operation Grange have sat on Dr Perlin's remarkable offer for over a year. Portugal's Policia Judiciaria also appear disinterested, having ignored Dr Perlin's approach for over a month.
Why?
Dr Perlin's advanced testing methods, based on computational software called TrueAllele, has overturned a number of wrongful convictions in the US. It has been used successfully in US state and federal court, and around the world.
In fact, for around 20 years Dr Perlin's lab Cybergenetics has been assisting the UK police for 20 years; he has successfully analysed previously "inconclusive" DNA evidence in major UK crimes.
So why not use Dr Perlin in the case of Madeleine McCann?
Dr Perlin has told Nine.com.au national crime labs are sometimes wary of his groundbreaking DNA technology, as it can expose flawed tests and mistaken results; those kind of revelations can be embarrassing for national crime agencies and their reputations.
The 18 DNA samples isolated by Nine.com.au and Dr Perlin were ruled inconclusive in 2007 because British testing methods at the time were inadequate and lacked the necessary sophistication.
The DNA evidence relates to key samples taken from inside apartment 5A and the boot compartment of a rental car hired 25 days after Madeleine went missing.
A cadaver dog team alerted in both those locations, although there is controversy about the reliability of cadaver dogs, which is why investigators consider alerts must be supplemented by additional evidence.
It is hard to understand why Operation Grange refuse to even acknowledge Dr Perlin's offer.
In the final episode of Maddie, Gerry McCann and the official Find Madeleine campaign were also notified of Dr Perlin's offer. There has been no reply, so far.
Kate McCann, the mother of the missing British girl Madeleine McCann, looks at a poster showing her missing daughter during a press conference on June 6, 2007 in Berlin.
Kate McCann, the mother of the missing British girl Madeleine McCann, looks at a poster showing her missing daughter during a press conference on June 6, 2007 in Berlin. (Getty)
Have Operation Grange interviewed Kate and Gerry McCann or the Tapas 7? If not, why not?
In 2013, Scotland Yard launched Operation Grange, a significant strike force to investigate what happened to Madeleine in Praia da Luz.
Operation Grange have remained firmly tight-lipped about the investigation, revealing little to nothing about the leads they are chasing.
In 2017, Mark Rowley, then Scotland Yard assistant commissioner, publicly addressed questions about whether his detectives had ever formally questioned Kate and Gerry McCann since the launch of Operation Grange.
No, was Rowley's reply.
Rowley added that the Portuguese police had dealt with the McCanns and the Tapas 7 during their original 14-month investigation, which started in 2007.
It is unclear if any of the Tapas 7, including David Payne, the last person to ever see Madeleine alive outside of her parents, and Matt Oldfield, who entered apartment 5A 30 minutes before she was reported missing, have ever been questioned by cops at Scotland Yard.
Former Scotland Yard detectives and police officers that Nine.com.au spoke to in episode nine of Maddie expressed some surprise if the McCanns had not been questioned by Operation Grange police. They also criticised Operation Grange's perceived failure to not begin its investigation with no preconceived ideas about might or might not have happened.
The McCanns and their friends may be able to help police catch the offender. Any information from them may help advance the investigation, or help to finally rule out aspects of the investigation. If they haven’t been questioned already, they should be.
Last month it was confirmed Operation Grange had been funded to the tune of another $550,000 in tax payer funds, taking total funding to more than $20m.
Gerry and Kate McCann, the parents of the missing 3-year-old girl Madeleine McCann, walk with their twins outside their resort apartment on May 11 2007, in Praia da Luz, southern Portugal.
Gerry and Kate McCann, the parents of the missing 3-year-old girl Madeleine McCann, walk with their twins outside their resort apartment on May 11 2007, in Praia da Luz, southern Portugal. (AAP)
Why did a reconstruction of May 3 not occur, and has still not taken place?
On a night of confusing events, one thing is very clear - a reconstruction of all the movements made by Kate and Gerry McCann and the Tapas 7 on the night of May 3, when Madeleine was reported missing, could yield vital clues.
As revealed in episodes one and two of Maddie, from the early evening, there are so many moving parts and people in play that it became very challenging for police to establish if and how the accounts of key players stacked up and held together.
According to the McCanns and their friends, adults were leaving the dinner table at the nearby tapas bar at 30 minute intervals, sometimes as regularly as every 15 minutes, to go check on the children.
The McCann's apartment, at the end of a five-storey block, was at best one minute walk from the restaurant. The other apartments were marginally further, including one holiday unit (where the Payne family stayed) located up a flight of stairs on the first level.
In April 2008, Portuguese police tried in vain to run a reconstitution of the night of May 3 to see if everyone's account of the night and various journeys they made all matched up.
But negotiations failed.
By 2008 the McCanns and their friends were all back in the UK. Documentation in the official police files reveals a chain of emails that were sent back and forth from the group to police. Concerns were expressed about flying back to Portugal, about privacy, a potential press frenzy and Kate and Gerry being named formal suspects.
In the end, what could have been a vital reconstruction assisting the effort to find Maddie never happened.
Portuguese police appeared to have questions around Jane Tanner’s sighting of a potential abductor with a child on the night of May 3; and how she walked straight past Gerry McCann and another Englishman, Jeremy Wilkins, without either man seeing her. These scenarios are explored in detail in episode two of Maddie.
A reconstruction could have helped answer some of this, as well as clarifying events earlier in the day when family friend David Payne visited Kate and the kids in apartment 5A.
Although there appeared to be reluctance from the Tapas 7 to return to Portugal at the request of police, Portuguese detectives must probably bear some responsibility for not forcing the issue of a reconstruction much sooner after Madeleine vanished, instead of the aborted effort in April 2008.
Portuguese police were also criticised for not separating and interviewing Kate and Gerry McCann when they were first questioned by detectives in Portimao Police Station.
LISTEN TO LATEST EPISODES OF MADDIE NOW 
Maps, graphics, stories and all episodes of Maddie here: nine.com.au/maddie
Madeleine McCann multi-episode investigation of evidence about case
Madeleine McCann multi-episode investigation of evidence about case (Nine)
© Nine Digital Pty Ltd 2019

So much for leaving no stone unturned! All parties should jump at the chance of new analysis of DNA found in 5A and the hire car, IMO.