UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: John on February 10, 2023, 07:23:21 PM
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Given the resources that the Metropolitan Police and others have ploughed into the search for Madeleine over the last decade and a half, are we any closer to understanding what happened that fateful night in Praia da Luz?
And secondly, has anyone changed their mind in the last few years as to what they may or may not have initially believed in this case?
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Given the resources that the Metropolitan Police and others have ploughed into the search for Madeleine over the last decade and a half, are we any closer to understanding what happened that fateful night in Praia da Luz?
And secondly, has anyone changed their mind in the last few years as to what they may or may not have initially believed in this case?
Grange has resulted in one rape being solved and charges laid and a trial pending on 3 more...plus 2 more charges relating to sexual crimes against children. Charges for the murder of MM to follow..
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Grange has resulted in one rape being solved and charges laid and a trial pending on 3 more...plus 2 more charges relating to sexual crimes against children. Charges for the murder of MM to follow..
Charges for the murder of MM to follow? You really still believe that?
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Charges for the murder of MM to follow? You really still believe that?
Of course he does. Remember this is the man who also believed McCann would win the ECHR case
The man who is never wrong - in his own mind
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Given the resources that the Metropolitan Police and others have ploughed into the search for Madeleine over the last decade and a half, are we any closer to understanding what happened that fateful night in Praia da Luz?
And secondly, has anyone changed their mind in the last few years as to what they may or may not have initially believed in this case?
John, we already know what happened. Andy Redwood explained rather eloquently that um, on the evidence, that you know, that um, that, that, you know that there was a criminal act that, you know, that was undertaken by a stranger.
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John, we already know what happened. Andy Redwood explained rather eloquently that um, on the evidence, that you know, that um, that, that, you know that there was a criminal act that, you know, that was undertaken by a stranger.
Aye for sure...
Redwood didn't last long after his massive dig failure in Praia da Luz. Was he really expecting to find Madeleine?
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Aye for sure...
Redwood didn't last long after his massive dig failure in Praia da Luz. Was he really expecting to find Madeleine?
Why not? If the police get a tip off that someone is hidden or buried in a specific location would you expect them to ignore it?
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Given the resources that the Metropolitan Police and others have ploughed into the search for Madeleine over the last decade and a half, are we any closer to understanding what happened that fateful night in Praia da Luz?
And secondly, has anyone changed their mind in the last few years as to what they may or may not have initially believed in this case?
I think we have become more aware of the evil that walks among us.
Paedophile ring uncovered during McCann probe
Published Jan 19, 2009
... El Mundo reported in its online edition on Monday.
Police arrested 13 suspects as a result of the investigation by officials from the Barcelona-based Metodo-3 agency, which had been hired by Gerry and Kate McCann to trace their daughter Madeleine
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As well as those arrested, police questioned another 10 people and seized a large quantity of computer equipment.
https://www.iol.co.za/news/world/paedophile-ring-uncovered-during-mccann-probe-431690
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I think we have become more aware of the evil that walks among us.
Paedophile ring uncovered during McCann probe
Published Jan 19, 2009
... El Mundo reported in its online edition on Monday.
Police arrested 13 suspects as a result of the investigation by officials from the Barcelona-based Metodo-3 agency, which had been hired by Gerry and Kate McCann to trace their daughter Madeleine
............................................................................
As well as those arrested, police questioned another 10 people and seized a large quantity of computer equipment.
https://www.iol.co.za/news/world/paedophile-ring-uncovered-during-mccann-probe-431690
Yes. The paedos. Raising awareness of paedos. Like Gerry was when he was ranting down the phone about the paedophile gang that had abducted Maddie, while Kate cursed about the f*cking b........s that had taken her.
It definitely wasn't staging or anything, no siree. This was the genuine reaction by the innocent parents of an abducted child & definitely not an attempt to pin the blame on paedophiles.
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Why not? If the police get a tip off that someone is hidden or buried in a specific location would you expect them to ignore it?
So why didn't the MET excavate the driveway at Casa Liliana when Steven Birch gave the tip off that Maddie was buried there? Seems they must have just ignored it.
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Of course he does. Remember this is the man who also believed McCann would win the ECHR case
The man who is never wrong - in his own mind
from someone who didnt understand the law involved.
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Aye for sure...
Redwood didn't last long after his massive dig failure in Praia da Luz. Was he really expecting to find Madeleine?
You dont seem to know much about how police investigate a crime
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Yes. The paedos. Raising awareness of paedos. Like Gerry was when he was ranting down the phone about the paedophile gang that had abducted Maddie, while Kate cursed about the f*cking b........s that had taken her.
It definitely wasn't staging or anything, no siree. This was the genuine reaction by the innocent parents of an abducted child & definitely not an attempt to pin the blame on paedophiles.
If my child was missing and I'd heard there were Paedophile gangs in the area I would jump to the conclusion that a Paedophile had abducted my child too. It would be the first thing that entered my head.
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If my child was missing and I'd heard there were Paedophile gangs in the area I would jump to the conclusion that a Paedophile had abducted my child too. It would be the first thing that entered my head.
Was Gerry told there were paedophile gangs in the area? He didn't show any concern when he went out every night and left his children in his unlocked accomodation.
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Was Gerry told there were paedophile gangs in the area? He didn't show any concern when he went out every night and left his children in his unlocked accomodation.
He must have been told after the abduction, but before he ever bothered ringing the police & telling them about the paedophile gangs.
Strange that he omitted such an important detail in his witness statement also.
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One thing which has been reinforced over the years is the level of blind malice directed towards the McCann family.
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One thing which has been reinforced over the years is the level of blind malice directed towards the McCann family.
It's not blind. The evidence Madeleine was taken in a criminal act by a stranger is plain for all to see.
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One thing which has been reinforced over the years is the level of blind malice directed towards the McCann family.
Don't forget the blind adulation too!
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Don't forget the blind adulation too!
Do you believe anyone on this form blindly adores the McCanns?
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Don't forget the blind adulation too!
One issue with which I have become familiar is the issue of fake news and distorted news mixed with half truth and factoid.
Nowhere is this more adroitly spewed out than within the internet vehicles promoting the opinions of the adulated and disgraced cop, Amaral. Remember "swingers" 👀 widely reported in the Portuguese press.
No Goncalo ~ the child medicine Calpol is not sedative ~ repeatedly telling your supporters it is really is a bit much.
On the other hand ~ if they really do believe that ~ they'll believe anything!
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Don't forget the blind adulation too!
Another thing you are totally mistaken about...theyre mounting up. Im interested in justice....particularly justice for Madeleine...what dont you understand about that
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Don't forget the blind adulation too!
What a very silly thing to say.
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Do you believe anyone on this form blindy adores the McCanns?
I don't know about the shrewish opinions promoted in that member's posts and I don't care two hoots about it. What intrigues me is that despite the unworkable theories with which Amaral has surrounded a missing child investigation that sixteen years down the line some individuals are following his lead in learning nothing.
Thankfully the present powers that be have been following where the McCann family led and results have been achieved as a result and probably a lot more than we will ever know about.
A very dangerous predator is presently off the streets as a direct result of the police learning from the evidence available to them and (ah - that magic word) coordinating it to keep him where he can do no harm.
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Another thing you are totally mistaken about...theyre mounting up. Im interested in justice....particularly justice for Madeleine...what dont you understand about that
Well, you're not going to find that here I'm afraid. Even the three expert investigative forces, armed as they are with all the weight of EMWTIACABAS, even they still can't bring the elusive abductor to justice. No. The best you can hope to find here is sniping & wummery, interspersed among MSM articles & opinions masquerading as facts.
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One issue with which I have become familiar is the issue of fake news and distorted news mixed with half truth and factoid.
Nowhere is this more adroitly spewed out than within the internet vehicles promoting the opinions of the adulated and disgraced cop, Amaral. Remember "swingers" 👀 widely reported in the Portuguese press.
No Goncalo ~ the child medicine Calpol is not sedative ~ repeatedly telling your supporters it is really is a bit much.
On the other hand ~ if they really do believe that ~ they'll believe anything!
I think Amaral is interested in Justice...I think he genuinely believes the McCanns are guilty...unfortunately he doesnt know his rrs from his elbow
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I think Amaral is interested in Justice...I think he genuinely believes the McCanns are guilty...unfortunately he doesnt know his rrs from his elbow
I seldom disagree with your reasoning. But I am diametrically opposed to it on this occasion. It's not often I attribute actions to the mental health of a person but I think that is one of many factors in the initial mismanagement of Madeleine's case up until and beyond his dismissal from it.
That opinion is reinforced by his absolutely bizarre conduct regarding his interference in the German case.
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I have become increasingly interested in Amaral's motives of late. Something that wouldn't have happened if it hadn't become so ridiculous.
Why try so hard to protect a convicted sexual predator if there isn't something to hide?
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I have become increasingly interested in Amaral's motives of late. Something that wouldn't have happened if it hadn't become so ridiculous.
Why try so hard to protect a convicted sexual predator if there isn't something to hide?
How hard did he try exactly? Sharing a photoshopped image of Brueckner with dreadlocks?
Nil points for effort from me I'm afraid
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I have become increasingly interested in Amaral's motives of late. Something that wouldn't have happened if it hadn't become so ridiculous.
Why try so hard to protect a convicted sexual predator if there isn't something to hide?
I think Amaral's recent behaviour is erratic to say the least and certainly does show that he has learned no lessons from the intervening years after Madeleine was abducted and his determined introduction of Brueckner into the public domain.
From him we know that Brueckner featured in police inquiries early days.
What a coincidence!
I think one would have to be very obtuse if that didn't prod some activity into the old brain cells.
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I think Amaral's recent behaviour is erratic to say the least and certainly does show that he has learned no lessons from the intervening years after Madeleine was abducted and his determined introduction of Brueckner into the public domain.
From him we know that Brueckner featured in police inquiries early days.
What a coincidence!
I think one would have to be very obtuse if that didn't prod some activity into the old brain cells.
You missed out the word 'allegedly' before abducted.
Like I said earlier, opinions masquerading as facts.
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I think Amaral's recent behaviour is erratic to say the least and certainly does show that he has learned no lessons from the intervening years after Madeleine was abducted and his determined introduction of Brueckner into the public domain.
From him we know that Brueckner featured in police inquiries early days.
What a coincidence!
I think one would have to be very obtuse if that didn't prod some activity into the old brain cells.
I can't hep wondering if anyone has had a look at Amaral's phone record for that night. Sorry about that.
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I can't hep wondering if anyone has had a look at Amaral's phone record for that night. Sorry about that.
Delusional.
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I can't hep wondering if anyone has had a look at Amaral's phone record for that night. Sorry about that.
The investigation into Madeleine's disappearance was like something gone mad. Everything seemed to be off kilter and firmly on the back foot.
From memory ~ Amaral was informed while he was at dinner. Possibly burning the midnight oil in preparation for being constituted as a suspect in a torture case on the following day 4th May.
Apart from trivia involving the McCann party and the Murat party, I don't think the invaluable resource presented by the telephone dump was utilised as it should have been until Scotland Yard came on the scene.
So I would say no-one bothered to check Amaral's log.
In fact I think that until now he has been relatively bomb proof no matter what nonsense he comes away with.
I'm not too sure whether or not he may have blown that immunity in his pursuit of "justice for brueckner". There has to be a limit to the credibility and tolerance shown to media personalities even in Portugal.
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The investigation into Madeleine's disappearance was like something gone mad. Everything seemed to be off kilter and firmly on the back foot.
From memory ~ Amaral was informed while he was at dinner. Possibly burning the midnight oil in preparation for being constituted as a suspect in a torture case on the following day 4th May.
Apart from trivia involving the McCann party and the Murat party, I don't think the invaluable resource presented by the telephone dump was utilised as it should have been until Scotland Yard came on the scene.
So I would say no-one bothered to check Amaral's log.
In fact I think that until now he has been relatively bomb proof no matter what nonsense he comes away with.
I'm not too sure whether or not he may have blown that immunity in his pursuit of "justice for brueckner". There has to be a limit to the credibility and tolerance shown to media personalities even in Portugal.
There was that fake burglary you see. I have wondered about that as well. That held things up a bit.
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I think what sums it up is that Amaral had too much faith in Grime .. Grime had too much faith in his dogs and the dogs liked to please Grime..
Grime did the same in Jersey but the dogs got caught out
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There was that fake burglary you see. I have wondered about that as well. That held things up a bit.
So did the delay in calling the police from the Ocean Club.
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So did the delay in calling the police from the Ocean Club.
Oh Yes. When the distraught English couple who couldn't speak Portuguese waited for The Ocean Club Reception to make the call for them. Very suspicious that was. While The GNR at Portimao couldn't send anyone anyway because they were attending to a burglary that never happened.
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Oh Yes. When the distraught English couple who couldn't speak Portuguese waited for The Ocean Club Reception to make the call for them. Very suspicious that was. While The GNR at Portimao couldn't send anyone anyway because they were attending to a burglary that never happened.
Didn't make much effort to inform reception though did they. It took Gerry almost a full golden hour before he saw to it the police be informed of the abduction. This makes sense when one realises that maybe he had something more pressing to attend to.
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There was that fake burglary you see. I have wondered about that as well. That held things up a bit.
Misty made posts some time ago which linked the simulated burglary with the huge police celebrations which had taken place that day which had involved many officers and probably left that night's shifts and patrols short staffed since so many had spent the day on duty at the event.
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Oh Yes. When the distraught English couple who couldn't speak Portuguese waited for The Ocean Club Reception to make the call for them. Very suspicious that was. While The GNR at Portimao couldn't send anyone anyway because they were attending to a burglary that never happened.
I have it on the very best authority that EVERYONE in Portugal speaks English so absolutely no reason for the delay.
Snip
The most recent example of the outrageous treatment of Dr. Amaral is the BBC broadcast claiming he had said "F*** the McCanns". Native Portuguese claim that Amaral actually said "'Não, força aos McCanns" "Ask the McCanns" in response to a reporter's questions. (GONCALO AMARAL DOES NOT SPEAK ENGLISH - a fact widely reported.) CMOMM
Well that is everyone with the exception of Amaral.
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So did the delay in calling the police from the Ocean Club.
How could PJ solve the case when they believed Eddie alerted to cadaver odour and had never been wrong
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I have it on the very best authority that EVERYONE in Portugal speaks English so absolutely no reason for the delay.
Snip
The most recent example of the outrageous treatment of Dr. Amaral is the BBC broadcast claiming he had said "F*** the McCanns". Native Portuguese claim that Amaral actually said "'Não, força aos McCanns" "Ask the McCanns" in response to a reporter's questions. (GONCALO AMARAL DOES NOT SPEAK ENGLISH - a fact widely reported.) CMOMM
Well that is everyone with the exception of Amaral.
I don't know who your 'very best authority' is, but it's wrong imo.
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I don't know who your 'very best authority' is, but it's wrong imo.
Live and learn.
With regard to the Netflix documentary - the Sun describes as a "Jaw dropping moment" Portuguese police chief's dinner party on the night of Maddie's disappearance
The Portuguese police chief who headed up the Madeleine McCann investigation admitted the real reason why he didn't go straight to the crime scene was because he was enjoying a dinner party.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/madeleine-mccann-netflix-series-jaw-22175407
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Live and learn.
With regard to the Netflix documentary - the Sun describes as a "Jaw dropping moment" Portuguese police chief's dinner party on the night of Maddie's disappearance
The Portuguese police chief who headed up the Madeleine McCann investigation admitted the real reason why he didn't go straight to the crime scene was because he was enjoying a dinner party.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/madeleine-mccann-netflix-series-jaw-22175407
I was referring to this claim 'I have it on the very best authority that EVERYONE in Portugal speaks English so absolutely no reason for the delay.'
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I was referring to this claim 'I have it on the very best authority that EVERYONE in Portugal speaks English so absolutely no reason for the delay.'
Do keep up.
I am following the thread topic. One rather wonders what new information you have gleaned in 16 years. Not a lot it would appear from your posts.
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Do keep up.
I am following the thread topic. One rather wonders what new information you have gleaned in 16 years. Not a lot it would appear from your posts.
Well, you learned that everyone in Portugal speaks English, it seems. But they don't.
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Well, you learned that everyone in Portugal speaks English, it seems. But they don't.
I think you missed the sarcasm.
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He must have been told after the abduction, but before he ever bothered ringing the police & telling them about the paedophile gangs.
Strange that he omitted such an important detail in his witness statement also.
I am sure the Police would have already known about the Paedophile gangs. The Police must have known about the break ins too. All hush hush so as not to spoil the tourist industry.
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I am sure the Police would have already known about the Paedophile gangs. The Police must have known about the break ins too. All hush hush so as not to spoil the tourist industry.
What paedophile gangs? There's no evidence of any. If there are paedophile gangs abducting kids from Luz, it seems strange their child abducting antics consisted of only one child abduction. Wouldn't you say? They seem to have quit the practice entirely after Maddie, even though they got clean away.
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I am sure the Police would have already known about the Paedophile gangs. The Police must have known about the break ins too. All hush hush so as not to spoil the tourist industry.
What paedophile gangs? All Gerry McCann said was that she could have been taken by a paedophile.
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What paedophile gangs? All Gerry McCann said was that she could have been taken by a paedophile.
Wonderfulspam mentioned paedophile gangs I was just replying to his post.
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Although I wouldn't be surprised if there were groups of Paedophiles who knew each other, sharing their photo's etc.
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What paedophile gangs? All Gerry McCann said was that she could have been taken by a paedophile.
He said something along the lines of there being Paedophile gangs in Portugal and that they had abducted Madeleine. I was so shocked by this, having originally thought that she had just wandered off.
https://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GRAHAM-MCKENZIE.htm
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So in September the witness remembers
"Mr McCann was absolutely distraught telling the person receiving the call that he feared 'she (Madeleine McCann) had been taken by paedophiles'."
An understandable fear to have for someone whose child has mysteriously disappeared in the night.
By December of that year the witness remembers it slightly differently:
"He said something along the lines of there being Paedophile gangs in Portugal and that they had abducted Madeleine"
This is all hearsay anyway and who knows for sure if Gerry claimed to know of the existence of paedophile gangs in Portugal during this phonecall.
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So in September the witness remembers
"Mr McCann was absolutely distraught telling the person receiving the call that he feared 'she (Madeleine McCann) had been taken by paedophiles'."
An understandable fear to have for someone whose child has mysteriously disappeared in the night.
By December of that year the witness remembers it slightly differently:
"He said something along the lines of there being Paedophile gangs in Portugal and that they had abducted Madeleine"
This is all hearsay anyway and who knows for sure if Gerry claimed to know of the existence of paedophile gangs in Portugal during this phonecall.
No. The first part you quote aren't comments made by McKenzie himself, they are written in third person & are a summary of the details by someone from either Leicester Police, or the PJ.
"He said something along the lines of there being Paedophile gangs in Portugal and that they had abducted Madeleine" Is the actual quote from McKenzie.
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Although I wouldn't be surprised if there were groups of Paedophiles who knew each other, sharing their photo's etc.
Maybe, but they weren't abducting kids though. That wasn't happening.
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He said something along the lines of there being Paedophile gangs in Portugal and that they had abducted Madeleine. I was so shocked by this, having originally thought that she had just wandered off.
https://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GRAHAM-MCKENZIE.htm
Sorry, I just read his sister's evidence, not this man's. They both agree, however, that Gerry McCann's thoughts turned to paedophiles pretty quickly after his daughter disappeared.
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Sorry, I just read his sister's evidence, not this man's. They both agree, however, that Gerry McCann's thoughts turned to paedophiles pretty quickly after his daughter disappeared.
What a surprise. Guilty, M'Lud.
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What a surprise. Guilty, M'Lud.
Maybe not guilty, but it could be relevant in other ways
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Re: Have we learned anything new after almost 16 years?
Observation of posts reveal that some of us are still firmly transfixed and bemused with precisely the same prejudices, myths and misunderstandings they have refused to let go from inception in 2007 into 2023.
I don't think there is any help for that level of obduracy.
Particularly when police investigation has gone full circle and arrived back to where it started.
We are told that police attempted to investigate Brueckner when the police had his name during the Madeleine McCann inquiry in 2007.
We know that his name was given to police in 2017 since when he has been under investigation for involvement in Madeleine's disappearance.
During which time and as a result of that investigation, other crimes committed by Bruecknerr have come to light and have been successfully prosecuted. With indictments for five other crimes of a similar nature in the pipeline as the direct result of the line of inquiry being followed, which was investigation of Madeleine's case.
The new thing we did learn in 2019 was of Brueckner's existence and shortly thereafter we learned his name.
The surprising thing we learned was that the police already had his name. And they had it as long ago as 2007.
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Sorry, I just read his sister's evidence, not this man's. They both agree, however, that Gerry McCann's thoughts turned to paedophiles pretty quickly after his daughter disappeared.
What tripe we are getting from the sceotics.
Of course, when your child was taken you would fear paedophiles were responsible.
Additionally when a child is raped/ abused by a paedophile, whether dead or alive when found, someone had to medically examine the poor child. That would be a doctor.
How do you KNOW that neither Gerry nor Kate had had that unenviable, disturbing task ?
Their friends were doctors and may also have had to check the poor little ones. As parents of young children, they would be ultra sensitive to such dreadful things. Anyone would be really so llong as they had a heart.
I sometimes wonder if some of you sceptics are lacking that part of your body.
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Sorry, I just read his sister's evidence, not this man's. They both agree, however, that Gerry McCann's thoughts turned to paedophiles pretty quickly after his daughter disappeared.
Are you surprised by this? If so please explain why.
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What tripe we are getting from the sceotics.
Of course, when your child was taken you would fear paedophiles were responsible.
Additionally when a child is raped/ abused by a paedophile, whether dead or alive when found, someone had to medically examine the poor child. That would be a doctor.
How do you KNOW that neither Gerry nor Kate had had that unenviable, disturbing task ?
Their friends were doctors and may also have had to check the poor little ones. As parents of young children, they would be ultra sensitive to such dreadful things. Anyone would be really so llong as they had a heart.
I sometimes wonder if some of you sceptics are lacking that part of your body.
Conversely, if your child wasn't taken, & you were in fact staging an abduction, you could blame the child's disappearance on someone else. People might well believe you, you see. That's possible also.
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Overzealous moderation again today.
If you can't argue against the observations I'm making, you can always just delete them & cry libel I suppose.
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What tripe we are getting from the sceotics.
Of course, when your child was taken you would fear paedophiles were responsible.
Additionally when a child is raped/ abused by a paedophile, whether dead or alive when found, someone had to medically examine the poor child. That would be a doctor.
How do you KNOW that neither Gerry nor Kate had had that unenviable, disturbing task ?
Their friends were doctors and may also have had to check the poor little ones. As parents of young children, they would be ultra sensitive to such dreadful things. Anyone would be really so llong as they had a heart.
I sometimes wonder if some of you sceptics are lacking that part of your body.
As doctors I would have expected the McCanns to know how suddenly illnesses or accidents can occur too, but they were apparently happy to leave three small children at least 30 minutes between listening checks on them.
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As doctors I would have expected the McCanns to know how suddenly illnesses or accidents can occur too, but they were apparently happy to leave three small children at least 30 minutes between listening checks on them.
Well done you‼ Indeed you have hit on some new learning. Particularly for the parents of the missing child.
Not forgetting the generations who certainly will not ignore the lesson learned.
Nor any potential abductors in holiday resorts who may have learned it's not a good idea to take a foreign child because of the merry hell it will cause.
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Sorry, I just read his sister's evidence, not this man's. They both agree, however, that Gerry McCann's thoughts turned to paedophiles pretty quickly after his daughter disappeared.
There are, IMO, two possible interpretations for the motivation behind Gerry's, alleged, comments regarding paedophile gangs, you see. Only one possible interpretation, sympathetic to the McCanns, is permitted under forum rules. Explaining the other will gain you a lot of warning points, I have discovered today. Oh well. That's something new I've learned about the case, 16 years on, & that's me done for today I suppose.
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There are, IMO, two possible interpretations for the motivation behind Gerry's, alleged, comments regarding paedophile gangs, you see. Only one possible interpretation, sympathetic to the McCanns, is permitted under forum rules. Explaining the other will gain you a lot of warning points, I have discovered today. Oh well. That's something new I've learned about the case, 16 years on, & that's me done for today I suppose.
There are ways to get across every point without falling foul of the moderators.
Almost 16 years on and Madeleine's whereabouts or what happened to her are still a mystery to everyone except possibly the individual or individuals who last saw her alive. All we still have are theories based on the mountain of documents and evidence that has accrued over that time.
Anyone who has studied this case can see why Amaral and his detective team had the concerns he had. Not many have covered themselves in glory by their actions.
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Well done you‼ Indeed you have hit on some new learning. Particularly for the parents of the missing child.
Not forgetting the generations who certainly will not ignore the lesson learned.
Nor any potential abductors in holiday resorts who may have learned it's not a good idea to take a foreign child because of the merry hell it will cause.
Really? The abductor seems to have got clean away by all accounts.
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Really? The abductor seems to have got clean away by all accounts.
It has caused mayhem for paedos out there ... and many of them will (should have anyway) have been questioned and their phones and whereabouts questioned.
If they have any sense at all they will have moved elsewhere, or hopefully stopped,
Paedos anywhere are a menace to our children. Put them all on an island with no children, no boats and get rid of them that way. Sorry that is a bit radical
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There are ways to get across every point without falling foul of the moderators.
That's bollocks and you know it John .
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It has caused mayhem for paedos out there ... and many of them will (should have anyway) have been questioned and their phones and whereabouts questioned.
If they have any sense at all they will have moved elsewhere, or hopefully stopped,
Paedos anywhere are a menace to our children. Put them all on an island with no children, no boats and get rid of them that way. Sorry that is a bit radical
That can only happen if the police obtain warrants of course. You can't just round up all convicted sex offenders & question them, track their phone data & seize their laptops, every time a child goes missing. They have a legal right to say b....r all to the police you know. No, probably best to have some evidence, reasonable suspicion against a person before ruling them into any enquiry, otherwise you might waste your time pursuing dead ends, as the three expert investigative forces are now discovering.
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That's bollocks and you know it John .
I do seem to remember mentioning possibility & using the words could be in my posts re McKenzie.
Indeed, one such post I replied to Eleanor that Gerry's alleged comment could be evidence of staging. That post still disappeared pretty rapidly.
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That's bollocks and you know it John .
Absolutely isn't and has never been the case. Posters need to up their game though if comments aren't to fall at the first hurdle. Posting something contrary to the rules just to get a reaction is not the way to go.
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Absolutely isn't and has never been the case. Posters need to up their game though if comments aren't to fall at the first hurdle. Posting something contrary to the rules just to get a reaction is not the way to go.
If it’s ok for Amaral to libel the McCanns why not just the troll say whatever he wants? He has been for months now anyway.
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Well done you‼ Indeed you have hit on some new learning. Particularly for the parents of the missing child.
Not forgetting the generations who certainly will not ignore the lesson learned.
Nor any potential abductors in holiday resorts who may have learned it's not a good idea to take a foreign child because of the merry hell it will cause.
The world seems to be devided between those who already knew that leaving small children alone in an unlocked apartment and those who said, even after the event, that they had, or would have, done the same as the McCanns.
Then there are those who doubt that there was an abduction, despite what must be one of the biggest press campaigns in it's favour ever.
I wonder how many abductions of children from overseas have taken place in holiday resorts?
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The world seems to be devided between those who already knew that leaving small children alone in an unlocked apartment and those who said, even after the event, that they had, or would have, done the same as the McCanns.
Then there are those who doubt that there was an abduction, despite what must be one of the biggest press campaigns in it's favour ever.
I wonder how many abductions of children from overseas have taken place in holiday resorts?
There was that Australian brat that was taken from a tent the other year. Isolated incident. No connection to the notorious paedophile gangs involved. Madeleine's abduction is quite unique, in that there haven't been any similar abductions in Portugal before or after.
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If it’s ok for Amaral to libel the McCanns why not just the troll say whatever he wants? He has been for months now anyway.
One of the things we have learned is that Amaral didn't libel the McCanns according to the laws of Portugal. Neither did Portugal breach their human rights according to the ECHR. Some people disagree, but that's just their 'armchair lawyer' opinion.
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If it’s ok for Amaral to libel the McCanns why not just the troll say whatever he wants? He has been for months now anyway.
Well, I didn't say anything libellous, in my opinion. I simply pointed out that one can interpret the McCanns behaviour in two ways. One that supports abduction, another that also fits in with the conclusions of the initial police investigation. That is my reasoned observation of the matter, it's based on the data contained within the files. So, it isn't libellous I'm afraid. No, because I'm not saying the McCanns did stage an abduction, I'm saying it's not unreasonable to deduce that they could have, based in part on Mr McKenzies evidence.
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The world seems to be devided between those who already knew that leaving small children alone in an unlocked apartment and those who said, even after the event, that they had, or would have, done the same as the McCanns.
Then there are those who doubt that there was an abduction, despite what must be one of the biggest press campaigns in it's favour ever.
I wonder how many abductions of children from overseas have taken place in holiday resorts?
Were you unaware of the media campaign pointing thefinger at the McCanns for the best partof a year after the disappearance?
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One of the things we have learned is that Amaral didn't libel the McCanns according to the laws of Portugal. Neither did Portugal breach their human rights according to the ECHR. Some people disagree, but that's just their 'armchair lawyer' opinion.
I’ve asked you twice recently for a cite to the ruling which explicitly states that Amaral did not libel the McCanns. Both times you ignored my request. Are you going to ignore it again?
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There are ways to get across every point without falling foul of the moderators.
Unfair moderation ahs ruined this forum. moderators on here continually break the rules.
I experienced abuse from moderators who seemed to have a personal vendetta against me....why you appointed stephen as a mod....doesnt make sense,
Im not that bothered but please dont trot out the same old.....obey the rules and youl be fine
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I’ve asked you twice recently for a cite to the ruling which explicitly states that Amaral did not libel the McCanns. Both times you ignored my request. Are you going to ignore it again?
Did the McCanns win the libel trial? No? Ah right, he didn't libel them then, otherwise they would have won, wouldn't they.
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Almost 16 years on and Madeleine's whereabouts or what happened to her are still a mystery to everyone except possibly the individual or individuals who last saw her alive. All we still have are theories based on the mountain of documents and evidence that has accrued over that time.
16 years on the BKA know exactly what happened to maddie as a direct intervention by SY into the investigation
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The world seems to be devided between those who already knew that leaving small children alone in an unlocked apartment and those who said, even after the event, that they had, or would have, done the same as the McCanns.
Then there are those who doubt that there was an abduction, despite what must be one of the biggest press campaigns in it's favour ever.
I wonder how many abductions of children from overseas have taken place in holiday resorts?
absolute junk...doesnt even warranta response
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16 years on the BKA know exactly what happened to maddie as a direct intervention by SY into the investigation
Of course they do. I find it a bit strange the BKA still haven't shared their evidence with either the MET or Madeleine's parents though. But it's probably not important. They can all just wait until the other cases are dealt with. We can't expect Wolters to manage 6 charges at once, 5 must be the limit.
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absolute junk...doesnt even warranta response
Well that's demonstrably false, because you just responded.
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One of the things we have learned is that Amaral didn't libel the McCanns according to the laws of Portugal. Neither did Portugal breach their human rights according to the ECHR. Some people disagree, but that's just their 'armchair lawyer' opinion.
You stll dont understand the judgenent....it clear Amaaral did libel the McCanns but the portuguse courts ruled thhat amarals rights under article 10 overuled the mcacans rights undr 8.
the ECHR rulled in Amarals favour based on the false claims in the SC judgement
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Well that's demonstrably false, because you just responded.
your post doesnt warrant a response either
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I’ve asked you twice recently for a cite to the ruling which explicitly states that Amaral did not libel the McCanns. Both times you ignored my request. Are you going to ignore it again?
Where did you get the idea that he did?
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Where did you get the idea that he did?
I didn’t pass comment on that, I simply asked for a cite to the paragraph in Portuguese judgement which states Amaral did not libel the McCanns. Surely you have it at your fingertips as it is a claim you make very frequently?
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The world seems to be devided between those who already knew that leaving small children alone in an unlocked apartment and those who said, even after the event, that they had, or would have, done the same as the McCanns.
Then there are those who doubt that there was an abduction, despite what must be one of the biggest press campaigns in it's favour ever.
I wonder how many abductions of children from overseas have taken place in holiday resorts?
I have learned in this internet age that whatever may be visited on the individual will be exploited by someone somewhere to to dream up the craziest theories imaginable and feel no shame in hounding victims.
None more exploited than the tragedies of missing and or murdered children. And that is without exception
One thing that has become apparent from every and any human tragedy are the individuals who crawl out of the woodwork in sheer ecstasy at the opportunity to apportion blame while wallowing vicariously in events affecting others and all the while with more malice than any rational person should be capable of.
The McCanns were not the first victims to fall foul of such personalities. It used to be carried out on a smaller scale using green ink and the cost of a stamp, now the www gives unlimited rein to the worst examples of human licence and malice.
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One of the things we have learned is that Amaral didn't libel the McCanns according to the laws of Portugal. Neither did Portugal breach their human rights according to the ECHR. Some people disagree, but that's just their 'armchair lawyer' opinion.
I think there is a lesson to be learned from Robert Murat et al and the awards they received from the Portuguese media who had libelled them.
One only has to read the police file on Murat to wonder why the press paid out on libels they really didn't have to.
Wonder if they will be asking for their money back.
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Where did you get the idea that he did?
Let’s have it your way. According to you Amaral did not libel the McCanns when he expressed the opinion that they hid their daughter’s body in a freezer and transported it in the hire car 23 days later. Certified completely non libellous by the court according to you (despite the lack of cites, but never mind). Why then is it libellous to hold and write the opinion that the McCanns murdered Madeleine and then hid her body? Surely by your and the PT court logic this too is not libellous yet the troll gets points if he expresses this opinion.
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Let’s have it your way. According to you Amaral did not libel the McCanns when he expressed the opinion that they hid their daughter’s body in a freezer and transported it in the hire car 23 days later. Certified completely non libellous by the court according to you (despite the lack of cites, but never mind). Why then is it libellous to hold and write the opinion that the McCanns murdered Madeleine and then hid her body? Surely by your and the PT court logic this too is not libellous yet the troll gets points if he expresses this opinion. Why aren’t you defending him against John?
I tell you what: one thing that hasn’t been learned after 16 years is how to moderate a forum where all moderators understand what is and isn’t libellous and moderate with consistency and fairness to all.
Because that wasn't the conclusion of the investigation. The PJ didn't believe the McCanns murdered Maddie, only that she died in an accident. So, that's exactly what Amaral wrote in his entirely non libellous book. Me personally, I like to believe that they could have but that theory isn't supported by the files, unfortunately. But I see no way to rule out any possibility, even after 16 years.
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Let’s have it your way. According to you Amaral did not libel the McCanns when he expressed the opinion that they hid their daughter’s body in a freezer and transported it in the hire car 23 days later. Certified completely non libellous by the court according to you (despite the lack of cites, but never mind). Why then is it libellous to hold and write the opinion that the McCanns murdered Madeleine and then hid her body? Surely by your and the PT court logic this too is not libellous yet the troll gets points if he expresses this opinion.
What a strange post! According to you the court didn't mention libel, but it's been trumpeted by the UK newspapers that the McCanns sued Amaral for libel and lost. Would you prefer to call it something else?
Portuguese laws don't apply in the UK, and this forum is understandably careful what is said here. I don't know who is saying the McCanns murdered their daughter, but that's against forum rules because it's the opinion of those in charge here that it's libellous. I don't think it's ever been tested in the UK courts.
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I think there is a lesson to be learned from Robert Murat et al and the awards they received from the Portuguese media who had libelled them.
One only has to read the police file on Murat to wonder why the press paid out on libels they really didn't have to.
Wonder if they will be asking for their money back.
The only award to Murat I can see is that TVI had to pay him Eur20,000 for labelling him a paedophile on live TV. Were there others?
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What a strange post! According to you the court didn't mention libel, but it's been trumpeted by the UK newspapers that the McCanns sued Amaral for libel and lost. Would you prefer to call it something else?
Portuguese laws don't apply in the UK, and this forum is understandably careful what is said here. I don't know who is saying the McCanns murdered their daughter, but that's against forum rules because it's the opinion of those in charge here that it's libellous. I don't think it's ever been tested in the UK courts.
The ECHR had the last word - does their opinion not count in the UK? Hasn’t it been repeated on here time and time again that testing the veracity of Amaral’s claims in court was never part of the legal process in this case? If so then please explain how the court was able to conclude no libel was committed and provide a cite to demonstrate that this was the court’s conclusion. If it’s ok according for the ECHR for one man in one European country to publish his opinion based on scant evidence, then why not Spam in another?
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The ECHR had the last word - does their opinion not count in the UK? Hasn’t it been repeated on here time and time again that testing the veracity of Amaral’s claims in court was never part of the legal process in this case? If so then please explain how the court was able to conclude no libel was committed and provide a cite to demonstrate that this was the court’s conclusion. If it’s ok according for the ECHR for one man in one European country to publish his opinion based on scant evidence, then why not Spam in another?
Those in power on this forum decide what members are allowed to post, not the ECHR. If you want to know what they think it might be a good idea to ask them, not me.
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The ECHR had the last word - does their opinion not count in the UK? Hasn’t it been repeated on here time and time again that testing the veracity of Amaral’s claims in court was never part of the legal process in this case? If so then please explain how the court was able to conclude no libel was committed and provide a cite to demonstrate that this was the court’s conclusion. If it’s ok according for the ECHR for one man in one European country to publish his opinion based on scant evidence, then why not Spam in another?
So you agree Amaral's theory is based on evidence, albeit scant?
That's interesting, because there are others here who insist there is no evidence at all against the McCanns.
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Those in power on this forum decide what members are allowed to post, not the ECHR. If you want to know what they think it might be a good idea to ask them, not me.
If you read the SC judgement you will see that the court accepted that the McCanns rights under Article 8 were breached. Its quite ironic how much you pontificate when your actual knowledge of the facts is poor
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Those in power on this forum decide what members are allowed to post, not the ECHR. If you want to know what they think it might be a good idea to ask them, not me.
Seeing as the ECHR clearly has their backs I don’t know what “those in power on this forum” are afraid of really..
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If you read the SC judgement you will see that the court accepted that the McCanns rights under Article 8 were breached. Its quite ironic how much you pontificate when your actual knowledge of the facts is poor
I’m still waiting for G-Unit to post the bit where the court explicitly stated that Amaral did not libel the McCanns, a claim she repeats regularly but refuses to provide a cite for.
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If you read the SC judgement you will see that the court accepted that the McCanns rights under Article 8 were breached. Its quite ironic how much you pontificate when your actual knowledge of the facts is poor
The publication of the files & the McCanns decision to court the media helped nullify that. You can't on the one hand claim your right to a private life as been breached whilst simultaneously giving media interviews on how you couldn't have sex with your spouse imo
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I’m still waiting for G-Unit to post the bit where the court explicitly stated that Amaral did not libel the McCanns, a claim she repeats regularly but refuses to provide a cite for.
Semantics. Whatever the McCanns sued Amaral for they lost the case.
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Semantics. Whatever the McCanns sued Amaral for they lost the case.
LOL. I think when it comes to points of law "semantics" are considered pretty damned important. The courts did NOT say that Amaral hadn't libelled the McCanns so perhaps you could stop your semantic word games.
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Semantics. Whatever the McCanns sued Amaral for they lost the case.
its true they lost but its also true that the portuguese included lies in their proven facts...you will b telling me next that the proven facts do not have to be facts or proven
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its true they lost but its also true that the portuguese included lies in their proven facts...you will b telling me next that the proven facts do not have to be facts or proven
That's exactly what G-Unit will be telling you:
Her post from October 2018;
He used facts from the investigation. No-one knows if those facts are true or false. In order for the ECHR to decide they would have to investigate the case themselves and then use their own findings.
That isn't within their remit
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7275.msg497499;topicseen#msg497499
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its true they lost but its also true that the portuguese included lies in their proven facts...you will b telling me next that the proven facts do not have to be facts or proven
The McCanns accepted the first judgement, points 6 &7 are still there for all to see no one has contested them , they are lies in your opinion, which counts for diddly squat.
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The McCanns accepted the first judgement, points 6 &7 are still there for all to see no one has contested them , they are lies in your opinion, which counts for diddly squat.
Gerry did contest them in the first judgement.. You're wrong there
There is no confirmation of cadaver odour being present in 5a.. So it's a lie to claim there was. So you're wrong there
Both my statements are fact.. Not opinion
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Gerry did contest them in the first judgement.. You're wrong there
There is no confirmation of cadaver odour being present in 5a.. So it's a lie to claim there was. So you're wrong there
Both my statements are fact.. Not opinion
Which the judge answered, as you well know.
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Gerry did contest them in the first judgement.. You're wrong there
There is no confirmation of cadaver odour being present in 5a.. So it's a lie to claim there was. So you're wrong there
Both my statements are fact.. Not opinion
I'm talking of the proven facts issued in the first judgement, no one bar yourself is contesting it, who you hope to influence among at best 6 regular posters who knows.
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Which the judge answered, as you well know.
yes the judge answerred with..from memory...we are not here to judge the facts of the case...thats FACTS..
that makes the proven facts even more bizarre
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yes the judge answerred with..from memory...we are not here to judge the facts of the case...thats FACTS..
that makes the proven facts even more bizarre
So is obvious to most people that 'proven facts' doesn't mean 'true facts'.
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So are we all agreed that we have learned very little in the past 16 years about Madeleine's disappearance?
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So is obvious to most people that 'proven facts' doesn't mean 'true facts'.
keep digging rthat big hole...people would expect proven facts to be true.Most sceptics if not all beleive that the proven facts re the alerts as true.
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So are we all agreed that we have learned very little in the past 16 years about Madeleine's disappearance?
not at all...Ive learnt a lot...not sure about others.
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So is obvious to most people that 'proven facts' doesn't mean 'true facts'.
Can you have an untrue fact?
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fact
/fakt/
noun
1.
a thing that is known or proved to be true:
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Given that a fact is something that is PROVEN to be TRUE, what is the difference between a PROVEN fact and a TRUE fact?
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"Cadaver dogs confirmed the onetime presence of a cadaver in the room" - is that a Proven Fact, a True Fact or neither?
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keep digging rthat big hole...people would expect proven facts to be true.Most sceptics if not all beleive that the proven facts re the alerts as true.
I don't think it's me who's in a hole.
I don't care what others believe, the judge made the position pertfectly clear to Gerry McCann
GMC – But the book mentions facts that aren't true.
Judge - We are not here to prove if the contents of the book are truthful or not. Here we are only trying to establish if the freedom of expression of the defendants has affected the rights of the claimants. This court cannot be a substitute of the criminal investigation.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4746.0
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So are we all agreed that we have learned very little in the past 16 years about Madeleine's disappearance?
I agree.
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I don't think it's me who's in a hole.
I don't care what others believe, the judge made the position pertfectly clear to Gerry McCann
GMC – But the book mentions facts that aren't true.
Judge - We are not here to prove if the contents of the book are truthful or not. Here we are only trying to establish if the freedom of expression of the defendants has affected the rights of the claimants. This court cannot be a substitute of the criminal investigation.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4746.0
It seems you don't realise you're in the hole. So the judge confirmed they were not ther to establish if the facts were true..yet allowed them to be referred to as proven
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I don't think it's me who's in a hole.
I don't care what others believe, the judge made the position pertfectly clear to Gerry McCann
GMC – But the book mentions facts that aren't true.
Judge - We are not here to prove if the contents of the book are truthful or not. Here we are only trying to establish if the freedom of expression of the defendants has affected the rights of the claimants. This court cannot be a substitute of the criminal investigation.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4746.0
Do you understand what veracity means
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I don't think it's me who's in a hole.
I don't care what others believe, the judge made the position pertfectly clear to Gerry McCann
GMC – But the book mentions facts that aren't true.
Judge - We are not here to prove if the contents of the book are truthful or not. Here we are only trying to establish if the freedom of expression of the defendants has affected the rights of the claimants. This court cannot be a substitute of the criminal investigation.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4746.0
not to establish if the allegations contained in the book are untrue and therefore libellous, yet that is how you have interpreted it.
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It would be nice to return to the thread topic. Perhaps those who want to continue to complain about the libel trial could do it on a more suitable thread.
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It would be nice to return to the thread topic. Perhaps those who want to continue to complain about the libel trial could do it on a more suitable thread.
If you look back you will see it was you who brought up the trial and took the thread off topic..you did the same two days ago..
So if you want to stay on topic best not to continually take it off topic
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It would be nice to return to the thread topic. Perhaps those who want to continue to complain about the libel trial could do it on a more suitable thread.
One thing we have learned in 16 years is that forum threads rarely stay on topic for long, most veer off at a tangent. As far as the “libel” trial is concerned we have learned that there are proven facts and true facts and the two things are completely different (&^&
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One of the things we have learned is that Amaral didn't libel the McCanns according to the laws of Portugal. Neither did Portugal breach their human rights according to the ECHR. Some people disagree, but that's just their 'armchair lawyer' opinion.
This is gunit raising the ECHR on this thread and then complains about the thread being taken off topic
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This is gunit raising the ECHR on this thread and then complains about the thread being taken off topic
Same old same old.
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The only award to Murat I can see is that TVI had to pay him Eur20,000 for labelling him a paedophile on live TV. Were there others?
Yes.
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It seems to me to be quite difficult to wander Off Topic on this Thread as it could include absolutely anything that some of us, even I didn't know.
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So are we all agreed that we have learned very little in the past 16 years about Madeleine's disappearance?
Yep, the girl disappeared in as yet unexplained circumstances.
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Yep, the girl disappeared in as yet unexplained circumstances.
It's been explained
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It's been explained
Wolters can explain everything. Just have faith in him & he will lead us to the promised land.
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It's been explained
You show where then ?
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Some people stay in ignorance...others continue to learn. I've learnt and understood an enormous amount during the last 15 yes re this case
I think John's motive for starting this thread was to knock SY.
The reason sceptic posters can't accept anything that shows the parents innocence is they cannot let go of the cadaver dog alerts . What I see is that the misplaced faith the PJ put in Grime and his dogs took the investigation into the wrong direction.
Lenny Harper was heavily criticised for doing the same in Jersey.
In Jersey the investigation collected and counted teeth where the dog alerted. In his white paper some 12 years later Grime says the dog will not react to teeth..
What a contradiction..with many sceptics claiming teeth are human remains.
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Some people stay in ignorance...others continue to learn. I've learnt and understood an enormous amount during the last 15 yes re this case
I think John's motive for starting this thread was to knock SY.
The reason sceptic posters can't accept anything that shows the parents innocence is they cannot let go of the cadaver dog alerts . What I see is that the misplaced faith the PJ put in Grime and his dogs took the investigation into the wrong direction.
Lenny Harper was heavily criticised for doing the same in Jersey.
In Jersey the investigation collected and counted teeth where the dog alerted. In his white paper some 12 years later Grime says the dog will not react to teeth..
What a contradiction..with many sceptics claiming teeth are human remains.
We've learnt you had no understanding of how the ECHR work,
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Yes.
Found it! Correio da Manhã condemned to pay €15,000 in damages.
https://www.portugalresident.com/maddie-case-victim-robert-murat-wins-damages-for-being-labelled-pedophile-on-live-tv/
Although it took years, the Portuguese courts delivered for Murat then.
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Some people stay in ignorance...others continue to learn. I've learnt and understood an enormous amount during the last 15 yes re this case
I think John's motive for starting this thread was to knock SY.
The reason sceptic posters can't accept anything that shows the parents innocence is they cannot let go of the cadaver dog alerts . What I see is that the misplaced faith the PJ put in Grime and his dogs took the investigation into the wrong direction.
Lenny Harper was heavily criticised for doing the same in Jersey.
In Jersey the investigation collected and counted teeth where the dog alerted. In his white paper some 12 years later Grime says the dog will not react to teeth..
What a contradiction..with many sceptics claiming teeth are human remains.
What is there that shows the McCanns innocence?
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You show where then ?
Redwood said 'not suspects' & mumbled about criminal acts by strangers.
Wolters says he has concrete evidence.
You just have to believe them is all.
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We've learnt you had no understanding of how the ECHR work,
I've more understanding than anyone here..my explanations simply go right over your head. I said from day 1, 2017 that the claim would be presumption of innocence and right to reputation..spot on.
You will be criticised for taking the thread off topic LOL..
Even Isabelle McFadden congratulated me when I took on 6 sceptics in a live debate on twitter space. ,..you can try and knock me if you want but all you do is show your lack of knowledge
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Yep, the girl disappeared in as yet unexplained circumstances.
Things we know now that we didn't know then - a dangerous rapist, burglar and child abuser lived in close proximity to PdL and his phone was used in PdL that night. That gives us a suspect with means, motive and very likely opportunity. What we haven't learned yet is what evidence (if any) the German police have that points more firmly at this man, but we do know that they are convinced he committed the crime. We also know that he is the only official suspect (arguido) in this case. Neither the Portuguese police nor the Met have come out and stated that the Germans are wrong and are pursuing other leads.
We will just have to wait and see. In the meantime we know for a fact that the parents are not official suspects.
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Things we know now that we didn't know then - a dangerous rapist, burglar and child abuser lived in close proximity to PdL and his phone was used in PdL that night. That gives us a suspect with means, motive and very likely opportunity. What we haven't learned yet is what evidence (if any) the German police have that points more firmly at this man, but we do know that they are convinced he committed the crime. We also know that he is the only official suspect (arguido) in this case. Neither the Portuguese police nor the Met have come out and stated that the Germans are wrong and are pursuing other leads.
We will just have to wait and see. In the meantime we know for a fact that the parents are not official suspects.
Didn't SY have no jurisdiction to investigate the McCanns anyway?
And good luck waiting for Brueckner to be charged. It shouldn't be much longer now.
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Things we know now that we didn't know then - a dangerous rapist, burglar and child abuser lived in close proximity to PdL and his phone was used in PdL that night. That gives us a suspect with means, motive and very likely opportunity. What we haven't learned yet is what evidence (if any) the German police have that points more firmly at this man, but we do know that they are convinced he committed the crime. We also know that he is the only official suspect (arguido) in this case. Neither the Portuguese police nor the Met have come out and stated that the Germans are wrong and are pursuing other leads.
We will just have to wait and see. In the meantime we know for a fact that the parents are not official suspects.
This Thread has turned out to be better than I first thought. All of us have learned a thing or two. Albeit just something that we might have missed. But The Jonny Come Latelys don't want to know.
Never mind. It isn't that important. While Sceptics continue to prove their ignorance.
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This Thread has turned out to be better than I first thought. All of us have learned a thing or two. Albeit just something that we might have missed. But The Jonny Come Latelys don't want to know.
Never mind. It isn't that important. While Sceptics continue to prove their ignorance.
Maybe you can tell me then, because I didn't get an answer from davel.
What is there that shows the McCanns innocence?
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Wolters has been investigating Brueckner for nearly six years, announced him as prime suspect almost three years ago. Still no charges in sight though. The evidence against him must be very conclusive, perhaps Wolters just needs a bit more time to strengthen his case. Yes, that must be it. Just be patient everyone. Let's all just wait & see. Best we give him another six years before we write him off completely.
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You show where then ?
I'm happy to..but need to check how well you understand evidence first ..so based on the premise of beyond reasonable doubt..do you accept CB is guilty of the rape of DM..which he was found guilty of
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Found it! Correio da Manhã condemned to pay €15,000 in damages.
https://www.portugalresident.com/maddie-case-victim-robert-murat-wins-damages-for-being-labelled-pedophile-on-live-tv/
Although it took years, the Portuguese courts delivered for Murat then.
Great! So your Google thingy does work after all 🦉 Did you learn anything about 'Diário de Notícias' while you were about it?
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Maybe you can tell me then, because I didn't get an answer from davel.
What is there that shows the McCanns innocence?
What is it that shows their guilt? Such a pity because I doubt that you are as stupid as you pretend to be.
I don't have a problem with you disagreeing with me, but I do mind when someone of obvious intelligence behaves like a brain dead moron just to disrupt.
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What is it that shows their guilt? Such a pity because I doubt that you are as stupid as you pretend to be.
I don't have a problem with you disagreeing with me, but I do mind when someone of obvious intelligence behaves like a brain dead moron just to disrupt.
No no, I'm not disrupting anything at all. Davel raised the point that sceptics won't accept anything that shows the McCanns innocence. So, presumably there must me be something that shows the McCanns innocence then, & I'd like to know what there is.
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No no, I'm not disrupting anything at all. Davel raised the point that sceptics won't accept anything that shows the McCanns innocence. So, presumably there must me be something that shows the McCanns innocence then, & I'd like to know what there is.
There's plenty..it's all been discussed but you don't accept it. Let's just take one..the lack of enough evidence to arrest..charge..or prosecute them. If they were tried in court in the present evidence they would be found not guilty..that is an indication of innocence
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So, Eleanor gets to call me a braindead moron. Nil warning points.
I reply in kind. Instant points.
Yes, that seems fair.
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There's plenty..it's all been discussed but you don't accept it. Let's just take one..the lack of enough evidence to arrest..charge..or prosecute them. If they were tried in court in the present evidence they would be found not guilty..that is an indication of innocence
It could just mean that the police failed to gather the evidence though. That doesn't mean there wasn't any to be found in the first place. No, I'm sorry. That won't do. Try again.
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There's plenty..it's all been discussed but you don't accept it. Let's just take one..the lack of enough evidence to arrest..charge..or prosecute them. If they were tried in court in the present evidence they would be found not guilty..that is an indication of innocence
This would certainly be enough to convince the troll that CB was innocent, strange how it doesn't apply when it's the McCanns though.
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So, Eleanor gets to call me a braindead moron. Nil warning points.
I reply in kind & call her an old bag. Instant points.
Yes, that seems fair.
I have given you No Points.
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It could just mean that the police failed to gather the evidence though. That doesn't mean there wasn't any to be found in the first place. No, I'm sorry. That won't do. Try again.
No one has to try with you. You destroy your own arguments.
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I have given you No Points.
Brietta did. In fairness, she should have either let the matter slide or awarded you points for insulting me. But that isn't going to happen.
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No one has to try with you. You destroy your own arguments.
All you're good for is insulting other members Eleanor. That much is plain for all to see.
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Brietta did. In fairness, she should have either let the matter slide or awarded you points for insulting me. But that isn't going to happen.
I didn't insult you. I paid you a compliment.
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This would certainly be enough to convince the troll that CB was innocent, strange how it doesn't apply when it's the McCanns though.
The problem with ruling out the McCanns is that you have to trust their word that Madeleine was alive & in her bed on the evening of May 3rd, available to be abducted. But there really is no way to confirm that she was I'm afraid.
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Found it! Correio da Manhã condemned to pay €15,000 in damages.
https://www.portugalresident.com/maddie-case-victim-robert-murat-wins-damages-for-being-labelled-pedophile-on-live-tv/
Although it took years, the Portuguese courts delivered for Murat then.
Interestingly the Portuguese appeal court judgement follows the line that one would expect in determining the outcome of a trial for defamation -
Morning Mail ordered to pay 15,<> euros to Robert Murat
Court finds that newspaper went too far in the published news about British citizen who came to be accused in the Maddie case.
Ana Henriques
May 6, 2013, 20:09
"The objective of increasing runs cannot be obnubilar of journalistic duties, respect for the presumption of innocence, of not collecting statements or images that affect the dignity of people, as well as publishing news that creates discrimination," the judges observe in a judgment dated mid-last month and now made public.
....................................................................
For the Lisbon Court of Appeal, the argument of the public interest cannot be used to justify "the warp of 'facts', insinuations" and conjectures attributed to the British — who came to be constituted accused in the Maddie case — "a sick personality in the area not only of pedophilia but even of zooestia, compatible with the practice of criminal wrongdoing related to the disappearance of the unfortunate child".
https://www.publico.pt/2013/05/06/sociedade/noticia/correio-da-manha-condenado-a-pagar-15-mil-euros-a-robert-murat-1593550
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Interestingly the Portuguese appeal court judgement follows the line that one would expect in determining the outcome of a trial for defamation -
Morning Mail ordered to pay 15,<> euros to Robert Murat
Court finds that newspaper went too far in the published news about British citizen who came to be accused in the Maddie case.
Ana Henriques
May 6, 2013, 20:09
"The objective of increasing runs cannot be obnubilar of journalistic duties, respect for the presumption of innocence, of not collecting statements or images that affect the dignity of people, as well as publishing news that creates discrimination," the judges observe in a judgment dated mid-last month and now made public.
....................................................................
For the Lisbon Court of Appeal, the argument of the public interest cannot be used to justify "the warp of 'facts', insinuations" and conjectures attributed to the British — who came to be constituted accused in the Maddie case — "a sick personality in the area not only of pedophilia but even of zooestia, compatible with the practice of criminal wrongdoing related to the disappearance of the unfortunate child".
https://www.publico.pt/2013/05/06/sociedade/noticia/correio-da-manha-condenado-a-pagar-15-mil-euros-a-robert-murat-1593550
Every case is different, naturally.
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Interestingly the Portuguese appeal court judgement follows the line that one would expect in determining the outcome of a trial for defamation -
Morning Mail ordered to pay 15,<> euros to Robert Murat
Court finds that newspaper went too far in the published news about British citizen who came to be accused in the Maddie case.
Ana Henriques
May 6, 2013, 20:09
"The objective of increasing runs cannot be obnubilar of journalistic duties, respect for the presumption of innocence, of not collecting statements or images that affect the dignity of people, as well as publishing news that creates discrimination," the judges observe in a judgment dated mid-last month and now made public.
....................................................................
For the Lisbon Court of Appeal, the argument of the public interest cannot be used to justify "the warp of 'facts', insinuations" and conjectures attributed to the British — who came to be constituted accused in the Maddie case — "a sick personality in the area not only of pedophilia but even of zooestia, compatible with the practice of criminal wrongdoing related to the disappearance of the unfortunate child".
https://www.publico.pt/2013/05/06/sociedade/noticia/correio-da-manha-condenado-a-pagar-15-mil-euros-a-robert-murat-1593550
This is all such a waste of time. Why do we go on doing this? Is there some facet of human nature that I don't understand and has completely passed me by? Especially since the accusations against The McCanns are obviously going nowhere.
My childhood was not of the best, but I don't feel so badly as some of you do. The McCanns were way better parents than I ever had, but I am not resentful of that. So what was it that makes some of you hate them so much?
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This is all such a waste of time. Why do we go on doing this? Is there some facet of human nature that I don't understand and has completely passed me by? Especially since the accusations against The McCanns are obviously going nowhere.
My childhood was not of the best, but I don't feel so badly as some of you do. The McCanns were way better parents than I ever had, but I am not resentful of that. So what was it that makes some of you hate them so much?
What is there to like about the McCanns?
I can't think of anything.
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This is all such a waste of time. Why do we go on doing this? Is there some facet of human nature that I don't understand and has completely passed me by? Especially since the accusations against The McCanns are obviously going nowhere.
My childhood was not of the best, but I don't feel so badly as some of you do. The McCanns were way better parents than I ever had, but I am not resentful of that. So what was it that makes some of you hate them so much?
Not me, I have no feelings towards the McCanns at all. Some posters seem to be close to hating Goncalo Amaral, however, imo.
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Not me, I have no feelings towards the McCanns at all. Some posters seem to be close to hating Goncalo Amaral, however, imo.
In Your Opinion. Thank goodness for that for a change.
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It could just mean that the police failed to gather the evidence though. That doesn't mean there wasn't any to be found in the first place. No, I'm sorry. That won't do. Try again.
Lack of evidence suggests innocence whether you likr it or not
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Lack of evidence suggests innocence whether you like it or not
Glad thats cleared up, who's the next one after CB.
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Not me, I have no feelings towards the McCanns at all. Some posters seem to be close to hating Goncalo Amaral, however, imo.
I dont see anyone hating Amaral...if youve read my posts, particularly recently , I say he probably actually beleives his thesis because of the way Grime promoted his dogs. Amaral thought the dogs had never been wrong in 200 cases...he thought they were the best dogs in the world and grime was the best handler. if that was true then hes absolutely right to be convinced the mccannns are guilty. the problem is...none of it is true.. i blame Grime for not making this clear. I have no feelings towards the mccAnns apart from sympathy for their loss and the abuse they receive from morons on the net
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Not me, I have no feelings towards the McCanns at all. Some posters seem to be close to hating Goncalo Amaral, however, imo.
You have no feelings for the McCanns but so often you seem quite contemptuous of them. Please be honest. At the very least you disapprove of and dislike them. How could you not, seeing as how you suspect them of dishonesty and worse in the disappearance of their child?
I dislike Amaral and think he's a lying, money-grubbing, not-very-bright exploitative git. But apart from that I have no feelings towards him @)(++(*
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You have no feelings for the McCanns but so often you seem quite contemptuous of them. Please be honest. At the very least you disapprove of and dislike them. How could you not, seeing as how you suspect them of dishonesty and worse in the disappearance of their child?
I dislike Amaral and think he's a lying, money-grubbing, not-very-bright exploitative git. But apart from that I have no feelings towards him @)(++(*
What are you like with people who do you real harm, mind thats the true you you've shown.
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Glad thats cleared up, who's the next one after CB.
Davel does appear to be suggesting CB is innocent. Which is strange, because he also believes Wolters has solved the case? Yes. Clear as mud.
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What are you like with people who do you real harm, mind thats the true you you've shown.
I would be a bit careful if I were you.
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I dont see anyone hating Amaral...if youve read my posts, particularly recently , I say he probably actually beleives his thesis because of the way Grime promoted his dogs. Amaral thought the dogs had never been wrong in 200 cases...he thought they were the best dogs in the world and grime was the best handler. if that was true then hes absolutely right to be convinced the mccannns are guilty. the problem is...none of it is true.. i blame Grime for not making this clear. I have no feelings towards the mccAnns apart from sympathy for their loss and the abuse they receive from morons on the net
So you feel it was unjustified?
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What are you like with people who do you real harm, mind thats the true you you've shown.
What true me is that? Someone who dislikes a lying, money-grubbing, not-very-bright, exploitative ex-copper? Big wow. I never give Amaral any thought at all except when his name comes up on here, and then his name engenders feelings of mild revulsion. I can't help it. I reserve far stronger feelings for people who do me real harm, not that there are many of those in the world. I have mostly been treated well by others, so aren't I lucky?
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This is all such a waste of time. Why do we go on doing this? Is there some facet of human nature that I don't understand and has completely passed me by? Especially since the accusations against The McCanns are obviously going nowhere.
My childhood was not of the best, but I don't feel so badly as some of you do. The McCanns were way better parents than I ever had, but I am not resentful of that. So what was it that makes some of you hate them so much?
There are lots of words which would explain it, El, but I think it can best be summed up with "empathy". Some have it in spades and others evidence a severe lack of.
There is nothing to be done about it ~ particularly as far as opinion posters using the internet are concerned ~ fortunately in the real world there are checks and balances which iron out most of the differences.
Posting on the forum about the McCann family has certainly been an education for me. None more so than reading responses to this thread topic. I come over all Victor Meldrewish - "I don't belieeeeeve it"
So some of us may have learned nothing over the past sixteen years but evidently those investigating Madeleine McCann's case have learned a great deal. And these are the guys who matter.
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What true me is that? Someone who dislikes a lying, money-grubbing, not-very-bright, exploitative ex-copper? Big wow. I never give Amaral any thought at all except when his name comes up on here, and then his name engenders feelings of mild revulsion. I can't help it. I reserve far stronger feelings for people who do me real harm, not that there are many of those in the world. I have mostly been treated well by others, so aren't I lucky?
This is a shame, because I spoke to Amaral & he told me that he thinks you're lovely & not in the least bit sanctimonious.
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I would be a bit careful if I were you.
Threatening now? Makes a change from insults I suppose.
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The problem with ruling out the McCanns is that you have to trust their word that Madeleine was alive & in her bed on the evening of May 3rd, available to be abducted. But there really is no way to confirm that she was I'm afraid.
Might not do for you but in the real world the fact there is not enough evidence to charge is evidence of innocence..they don't have to prove it
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There are lots of words which would explain it, El, but I think it can best be summed up with "empathy". Some have it in spades and others evidence a severe lack of.
There is nothing to be done about it ~ particularly as far as opinion posters using the internet are concerned ~ fortunately in the real world there are checks and balances which iron out most of the differences.
Posting on the forum about the McCann family has certainly been an education for me. None more so than reading responses to this thread topic. I come over all Victor Meldrewish - "I don't belieeeeeve it"
So some of us may have learned nothing over the past sixteen years but evidently those investigating Madeleine McCann's case have learned a great deal. And these are the guys who matter.
First the Portuguese, then the English and now the Germans have tried to solve Madeleine's disappearance but none have managed it.
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The problem with ruling out the McCanns is that you have to trust their word that Madeleine was alive & in her bed on the evening of May 3rd, available to be abducted. But there really is no way to confirm that she was I'm afraid.
If the story about Payne's visit to 5a is anything to go by I think we can take much of what has been said with a mighty pinch of salt. The discrepancy in the versions of events in the hours before Madeleine was reported missing is just too wide to be reliable.
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Might not do for you but in the real world the fact there is not enough evidence to charge is evidence of innocence..they don't have to prove it
Right, so you agree Brueckner is innocent. That's good to know.
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There isn't enough evidence to charge anyone in connection with Madeleine's disappearance.
That in it's self is evidence everyone is innocent.
So no abduction, or death in the apartment. The only legally acceptable explanation for Madeleine’s disappearance is that she left of her own accord & went to start life anew. Madeleine simply disappeared, until proven otherwise. That is a proven fact.
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First the Portuguese, then the English and now the Germans have tried to solve Madeleine's disappearance but none have managed it.
The Germans with the help of SY have solved it where the PJ failed
They also solved the DM rape case where the PJ failed
CB is charged with another rape and two more paedophile charged..thanks to SY and the BKA..again where the PJ failed
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If the story about Payne's visit to 5a is anything to go by I think we can take much of what has been said with a mighty pinch of salt. The discrepancy in the versions of events in the hours before Madeleine was reported missing is just too wide to be reliable.
The most likely explanation is poor translations..without verbatim statements in English it's impossible to say
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If the story about Payne's visit to 5a is anything to go by I think we can take much of what has been said with a mighty pinch of salt. The discrepancy in the versions of events in the hours before Madeleine was reported missing is just too wide to be reliable.
*shakes head in disbelief*
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The Germans with the help of SY have solved it where the PJ failed
They also solved the DM rape case where the PJ failed
CB is charged with another rape and two more paedophile charged..thanks to SY and the BKA..again where the PJ failed
So when does Brueckner's trial start then?
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Charges for the murder of MM to follow? You really still believe that?
I think it's most likely
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The most likely explanation is poor translations..without verbatim statements in English it's impossible to say
Any discrepancies will be put to bed when the McCanns are called as witnesses during Brueckner's trial.
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So you feel it was unjustified?
I think it was a disgrace
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I think it's most likely
Based on anything in particular, or just blind faith in Wolters?
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*shakes head in disbelief*
It was rather... unbelievable. He said...she said... @)(++(*
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It was rather... unbelievable. He said...she said... @)(++(*
So you think there was something devious going on between DP and Kate McCann do you? I mean, you’ve obviously never come across the phenomenon of witnesses recalling events slightly differently from each other or getting details completely wrong have you? Like that nosey social worker who ascribed a long scar to DP’s face when she was decribing him, a scar he doesn’t actually possess? Yes, it must be that DP and Kate McCann were covering something up that happened earlier that evening - and then by sheer coincidence Madeleine woke and wandered out of the apartment later on, as you seem to believe *%87
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Based on anything in particular, or just blind faith in Wolters?
I've answered several questions and happy to answer more but first..do you believe beyond reasonable doubt that CB is guilty of the rape of DM
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There are lots of words which would explain it, El, but I think it can best be summed up with "empathy". Some have it in spades and others evidence a severe lack of.
There is nothing to be done about it ~ particularly as far as opinion posters using the internet are concerned ~ fortunately in the real world there are checks and balances which iron out most of the differences.
Posting on the forum about the McCann family has certainly been an education for me. None more so than reading responses to this thread topic. I come over all Victor Meldrewish - "I don't belieeeeeve it"
So some of us may have learned nothing over the past sixteen years but evidently those investigating Madeleine McCann's case have learned a great deal. And these are the guys who matter.
We empathise with others when we are able to imagine how they feel. To empathise with the McCanns is remarkably easy, because they have told us how they have been feeling ever since their daughter was allegedly abducted. All people need to do is believe in the stranger abduction. It's not so easy for those who doubt that is what happened.
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We empathise with others when we are able to imagine how they feel. To empathise with the McCanns is remarkably easy, because they have told us how they have been feeling ever since their daughter was allegedly abducted. All people need to do is believe in the stranger abduction. It's not so easy for those who doubt that is what happened.
You have no apparent understanding of what empathy is. You don’t have to be told how someone is feeling in order to be able to empathise with them
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First the Portuguese, then the English and now the Germans have tried to solve Madeleine's disappearance but none have managed it.
There was no chance that Amaral's investigation would solve anything. But they could have. At one time they were showing an interest in Brueckner. And they had unsolved crimes to crack involving home invasions among which was the forensic evidence of Brueckner's pubic hair.
The McCann private detectives didn't have the resources the National forces have but they kept the investigation alive when no-one else was and their evidence was passed on when Scotland Yard took over.
I think your judgement that SY and the BKA haven't managed to solve the case is premature. Madeleine's is still an active case and while that situation prevails is capable of resolution.
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Based on anything in particular, or just blind faith in Wolters?
Wolters only conveys what he’s told to.
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We empathise with others when we are able to imagine how they feel. To empathise with the McCanns is remarkably easy, because they have told us how they have been feeling ever since their daughter was allegedly abducted. All people need to do is believe in the stranger abduction. It's not so easy for those who doubt that is what happened.
There are individuals who have no empathy for a child who went missing when she was three and who have striven over the sixteen years of her absence to ensure that every initiative taken on her behalf was obstructed.
That starts with objection to fund money raised to finance the search for her when only her parents were keeping the investigation alive. It continued in resistance to her parent's attempts to have her case taken up by the British authorities and investigation started.
Where the malice and lack of empathy will end - I haven't a clue. But the difference in attitude and empathy shown to desperate parents and the suspect in Madeleine's disappearance who happens to be a burglar, convicted rapist and child abuser, is very marked.
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You have no apparent understanding of what empathy is. You don’t have to be told how someone is feeling in order to be able to empathise with them
Your skill of grasping the wrong end of the stick is impressive. As I said, we can imagine how they feel.
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There are individuals who have no empathy for a child who went missing when she was three and who have striven over the sixteen years of her absence to ensure that every initiative taken on her behalf was obstructed.
That starts with objection to fund money raised to finance the search for her when only her parents were keeping the investigation alive. It continued in resistance to her parent's attempts to have her case taken up by the British authorities and investigation started.
Where the malice and lack of empathy will end - I haven't a clue. But the difference in attitude and empathy shown to desperate parents and the suspect in Madeleine's disappearance who happens to be a burglar, convicted rapist and child abuser, is very marked.
How can you empathise with a child when you don't know what happened to her? Doesn't that make it difficult to 'walk in her shoes'?
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How can you empathise with a child when you don't know what happened to her? Doesn't that make it difficult to 'walk in her shoes'?
I sympathize.does that make it better
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Your skill of grasping the wrong end of the stick is impressive. As I said, we can imagine how they feel.
Can we? Tell me how they feel then.
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How can you empathise with a child when you don't know what happened to her? Doesn't that make it difficult to 'walk in her shoes'?
I knew you couldn’t do empathy. There was a little girl alone in the dark. Something bad happened to her. And you can’t put yourself in her shoes and imagine how she would have felt during this ordeal? Astonishing.
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I would be a bit careful if I were you.
Away with you, the sun will rise again tomorrow if spared I'll see it again so you have no impact on life at all.
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I knew you couldn’t do empathy. There was a little girl alone in the dark. Something bad happened to her. And you can’t put yourself in her shoes and imagine how she would have felt during this ordeal? Astonishing.
How do you know there was a lttle girl alone in the dark?
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How do you know there was a lttle girl alone in the dark?
Oh wait. You think Madeline died surrounded by family during the day? My mistake.
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I've answered several questions and happy to answer more but first..do you believe beyond reasonable doubt that CB is guilty of the rape of DM
No, I believe he is innocent. I've seen no evidence he ever raped DM.
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I knew you couldn’t do empathy. There was a little girl alone in the dark. Something bad happened to her. And you can’t put yourself in her shoes and imagine how she would have felt during this ordeal? Astonishing.
Madeleine was not alone in the dark. She had the abductor to keep her company. Also, Kate believed Madeleine had been drugged. She was very clearly unconscious when Jane Tanner witnessed her abduction, so she wouldn't have felt anything.
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Wolters only conveys what he’s told to.
I would like to know the names of the people feeding him information /disinformation.
I sometimes wonder if this has all been an effort to distract us from what really is happening in The Madeleine Case. To take the pressure off the perps? Could Wolters have been made a patsy of, I wonder. He seems so sincere that I think that he is truly sincere. Maybe he has been led on ? Dunno.
I think that to begin with we all thought that he was head honcho of the prosecutors at National level. I am afraid that whilst he is a very well presentd young man, his giant knotted tie and cut away collar gave it away to me, but in the first place I thought maybe that was how the top people in Germany dressed. Since then we found that he was only about Amarals level in Brunswick.
I hope that nobody has made a mug of him, because he has worked very hard and seems very sincere. I would hate to see him hurt.
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The Germans with the help of SY have solved it where the PJ failed
They also solved the DM rape case where the PJ failed
CB is charged with another rape and two more paedophile charged..thanks to SY and the BKA..again where the PJ failed
The BKA only managed to solve the DM case because Brueckner filmed the rape & then Bushching grassed him up. It wasn't thanks to any super sleuthing, just luck really. If the PJ hadn't been so diligent in recovering Brueckner's pubes from the crime scene then he might have got away with it.
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I would like to know the names of the people feeding him information /disinformation.
I sometimes wonder if this has all been an effort to distract us from what really is happening in The Madeleine Case. To take the pressure off the perps? Could Wolters have been made a patsy of, I wonder. He seems so sincere that I think that he is truly sincere. Maybe he has been led on ? Dunno.
I think that to begin with we all thought that he was head honcho of the prosecutors at National level. I am afraid that whilst he is a very well presentd young man, his giant knotted tie and cut away collar gave it away to me, but in the first place I thought maybe that was how the top people in Germany dressed. Since then we found that he was only about Amarals level in Brunswick.
I hope that nobody has made a mug of him, because he has worked very hard and seems very sincere. I would hate to see him hurt.
I didn't assume he was a 'head honcho' or that he worked nationally. The Braunschweig Prosecutors website told me he was their press officer.
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The BKA only managed to solve the DM case because Brueckner filmed the rape & then Bushching grassed him up. It wasn't thanks to any super sleuthing, just luck really. If the PJ hadn't been so diligent in recovering Brueckner's pubes from the crime scene then he might have got away with it.
CBs name was given to SY after they held a TV appeal organised by SY and the BKA following the relentless campaign by K and G to get justice for Maddie. I accept a public appeal is only routine police work not super..
The point is the PJ never even managed routine...
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I would like to know the names of the people feeding him information /disinformation.
I sometimes wonder if this has all been an effort to distract us from what really is happening in The Madeleine Case. To take the pressure off the perps? Could Wolters have been made a patsy of, I wonder. He seems so sincere that I think that he is truly sincere. Maybe he has been led on ? Dunno.
I think that to begin with we all thought that he was head honcho of the prosecutors at National level. I am afraid that whilst he is a very well presentd young man, his giant knotted tie and cut away collar gave it away to me, but in the first place I thought maybe that was how the top people in Germany dressed. Since then we found that he was only about Amarals level in Brunswick.
I hope that nobody has made a mug of him, because he has worked very hard and seems very sincere. I would hate to see him hurt.
I'm afraid you totally misunderestimate him.
He's just successfullly prosecuted a no body murder,. As rare as hens teeth in Germany.
He's charged CB for 5 other crimes..don't see how his collar and tie are relevant
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I'm afraid you totally misunderestimate him.
He's just successfullly prosecuted a no body murder,. As rare as hens teeth in Germany.
He's charged CB for 5 other crimes..don't see how his collar and tie are relevant
Was Wolters the prosecutor in the rape case?
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CBs name was given to SY after they held a TV appeal organised by SY and the BKA following the relentless campaign by K and G to get justice for Maddie. I accept a public appeal is only routine police work not super..
The point is the PJ never even managed routine...
Brueckner's dna wasn't on the database so his pubes couldn't be matched to anyone. The only information the PJ had at the time of the rape was that a 6 foot masked & tight wearing rapist had raped DM.
What sort of public appeal could they have done, given the limited information they had?
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She's alive and well, that's what we've learnt.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1736082/Madeleine-McCann-missing-german-girl-claims-to-be-maddie-mccann-tik-tok
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She's alive and well, that's what we've learnt.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1736082/Madeleine-McCann-missing-german-girl-claims-to-be-maddie-mccann-tik-tok
I hope that poor young woman gets the help she needs.
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I hope that poor young woman gets the help she needs.
I am very sceptical of this one. Thirteen to Twenty-one years of age she thinks she could be.
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I am very sceptical of this one. Thirteen to Twenty-one years of age she thinks she could be.
Easily resolved with a DNA sample from her, I would think.
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Even gobby squawking Sonia doesn't think she's Madeleine McCann... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xM_-emjNhdE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xM_-emjNhdE)
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Even gobby squawking Sonia doesn't think she's Madeleine McCann... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xM_-emjNhdE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xM_-emjNhdE)
Obviously not - Sonia is in the "Dogs Don't Lie" camp. Even if DNA evidence proved she WAS Madeleine McCann Sonia wouldn't believe it!
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Even gobby squawking Sonia doesn't think she's Madeleine McCann... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xM_-emjNhdE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xM_-emjNhdE)
Oh. I am beginning to believe she might be.
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Madeleine McCann's sister speaks out for first time on tragic anniversary
Madeleine McCann's sister lit a candle in her memory tonight as she joined her parents and well wishers on the poignant 16th anniversary of her disappearance and later said: "It's nice that everyone is here together but it's a sad occasion." Amelie, now 18, and applying to go to university was pictured for the first time since she was a toddler and gives a glimpse of what her older sibling may now look like as an adult.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/madeleine-mccann-s-sister-speaks-out-for-first-time-on-tragic-anniversary/ar-AA1aHBUC?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=71834040b79e4cb6bfb847e538da4be2&ei=23
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One thing we have learned is that the McCanns are a strong family and their tragedy has not destroyed them as it might have done others.
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I've learned that Amelie looks like her dad.
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And Spammy The Thread Stopper Strikes Again.
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And Spammy The Thread Stopper Strikes Again.
I wasn't wumming. Can see the family resemblance is all. She has her fathers nose & face shape imo. Am I alone in thinking this? I wonder if Sean is the same, or perhaps he has his mother's facial structure.
Where's Sadie? She's the expert on this sort of thing here.
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I wasn't wumming. Can see the family resemblance is all. She has her fathers nose & face shape imo. Am I alone in thinking this? I wonder if Sean is the same, or perhaps he has his mother's facial structure.
Where's Sadie? She's the expert on this sort of thing here.
Does it matter? She is a very brave girl. About to go out into the real world unprotected.
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Does it matter? She is a very brave girl. About to go out into the real world unprotected.
No, it doesn't matter at all. Just my observation. She looks like a cross between her mother & father. Which is to be expected really I suppose.
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Does it matter? She is a very brave girl. About to go out into the real world unprotected.
Obviously there will have been a lot of thought and family dissuasion about this initiative. Bravo!
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4th May, 2023
I am writing this message to the media in general. I expect it may not appear in print or on-line but hope that it will spark a conscience in some.
As we do every year, we gathered in our village yesterday evening to mark the anniversary of our daughter Madeleine’s abduction. It was a special event and lovely to sense the hope and warmth of those who were there.
I was dismayed, however, that this sadly provided an opportunity for a local journalist to exploit the presence of our younger daughter who does not wish to be photographed or interviewed and was made to feel uncomfortable, especially at such a special moment of hope for Madeleine.
Our son and daughter turned eighteen this year - but I truly hope this will not make them targets for those journalists looking to make financial gain.
Please can I appeal to you that you respect our children’s privacy and let them live their lives.
Kate
http://www.findmadeleine.com/updates/index.html
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4th May, 2023
I am writing this message to the media in general. I expect it may not appear in print or on-line but hope that it will spark a conscience in some.
As we do every year, we gathered in our village yesterday evening to mark the anniversary of our daughter Madeleine’s abduction. It was a special event and lovely to sense the hope and warmth of those who were there.
I was dismayed, however, that this sadly provided an opportunity for a local journalist to exploit the presence of our younger daughter who does not wish to be photographed or interviewed and was made to feel uncomfortable, especially at such a special moment of hope for Madeleine.
Our son and daughter turned eighteen this year - but I truly hope this will not make them targets for those journalists looking to make financial gain.
Please can I appeal to you that you respect our children’s privacy and let them live their lives.
Kate
http://www.findmadeleine.com/updates/index.html
She was in a public place. Perhaps if she didn't wish to be photographed or interviewed she should refrain from attending public gatherings known to be frequented by the media every year. Just a thought.
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She was in a public place. Perhaps if she didn't wish to be photographed or interviewed she should refrain from attending public gatherings known to be frequented by the media every year. Just a thought.
Kate McCann still hasn't learned how the media works, it seems, despite years of experiencing it.
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Kate McCann still hasn't learned how the media works, it seems, despite years of experiencing it.
What a pathetic post 😥 but no surprises there.
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Kate McCann still hasn't learned how the media works, it seems, despite years of experiencing it.
And years of trying to protect her family. So no peace for her remaining children. They can never go anywhere without being hounded for something that is nothing to do with them. Just stay indoors and don't ever do anything. University? Good heavens. How dare they?
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Unforeseen consequences of a bad decision.
Media outlets will pursue anything that promises to make them money.
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Unforeseen consequences of a bad decision.
Media outlets will pursue anything that promises to make them money.
So are we now to see the hounding of The McCann Twins for ever more?
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And years of trying to protect her family. So no peace for her remaining children. They can never go anywhere without being hounded for something that is nothing to do with them. Just stay indoors and don't ever do anything. University? Good heavens. How dare they?
It is hard for teenagers under normal circumstances but Madeleine's siblings carry an enormous burden absolutely not of their making.
If decency doesn't dictate appropriate behaviour about publicity maybe they can be lumped in with the child murderers whose identities are protected for life. What an indictment that would be for decency and morality if the twins had to be singled out to protect them like that.
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So are we now to see the hounding of The McCann Twins for ever more?
There was no 'hounding' here. She was pictured in public, at a public event & asked to speak. She chose to speak. Maybe she should have taken a tip from her mother & just said 'no comment'.
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What a pathetic post 😥 but no surprises there.
If any posts are pathetic it's those who seem to think special treatment should apply to certain people.
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If any posts are pathetic it's those who seem to think special treatment should apply to certain people.
This is sick.
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This is sick.
It is the lack of posting skill which breaks the rules regarding personal attacks which tickles me 🤣
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Two innocent children should be hounded for all of their lives just because of who they are and who thy are related to.
I am pretty certain that there is a Law against this. And I think that I feel like throwing up.
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Two innocent children should be hounded for all of their lives just because of who they are and who thy are related to.
I am pretty certain that there is a Law against this. And I think that I feel like throwing up.
Well go throw up & then have a bit of a lie down. Maybe when you feel better you'll realise nobody has been hounded. If they had been, the McCanns would have reported the incident to the police. They didnt, because they can't, as no law has been broken. If Amelie wants to retain anonymity in future, maybe she should think about divorcing her parents, or simply don't go with them to gatherings frequented by the press. It's not as if she wouldn't have known there'd be photographers there. They go there every year ffs.
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Kate McCann still hasn't learned how the media works, it seems, despite years of experiencing it.
Oh? I thought she and her husband were supposed to be master manipulators who got the world’s press to do their bidding, brainwashing us sheeple that Madeleine was abducted?
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Oh? I thought she and her husband were supposed to be maste manipulators who got the world’s press to do their bidding, brainwashing us sheeple that Madeleine was abducted?
Same old same old. Sceptics never think things through.
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Well go throw up & then have a bit of a lie down. Maybe when you feel better you'll realise nobody has been hounded. If they had been, the McCanns would have reported the incident to the police. They didnt, because they can't, as no law has been broken. If Amelie wants to retain anonymity in future, maybe she should think about divorcing her parents, or simply don't go with them to gatherings frequented by the press. It's not as if she wouldn't have known there'd be photographers there. They go there every year ffs.
It wasn't difficult to predict what would happen.
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It wasn't difficult to predict what would happen.
And it wasn't difficult to know what your reaction would be.
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And it wasn't difficult to know what your reaction would be.
Victim blaming, the sceptic's favourite pastime.
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And it wasn't difficult to know what your reaction would be.
Nor yours.
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Nor yours.
Thank you for the compliment.
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Thank you for the compliment.
Well. Perhaps you're proud of the fact that you have an unrealistic view of the world? My view is pragmatic and I look at it how it is. Maybe you should accept that we have completely different approaches and accept that you can't expect everyone to think like you do.
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Well. Perhaps you're proud of the fact that you have an unrealistic view of the world? My view is pragmatic and I look at it how it is. Maybe you should accept that we have completely different approaches and accept that you can't expect everyone to think like you do.
I am only too aware of the fact that kindness is often too much to expect. Fortunately for me, that is your problem and not mine.
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Two innocent children should be hounded for all of their lives just because of who they are and who thy are related to.
I am pretty certain that there is a Law against this. And I think that I feel like throwing up.
Those who have notorious and newsworthy parents often suffer as a consequence.
Probably only illegal if stalked by photographers and the like.
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Those who have notorious and newsworthy parents often suffer as a consequence.
Probably only illegal if stalked by photographers and the like.
The McCanns are not notorious. They have never so much as even been arrested for anything, no matter how much some may think they should have been.
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I am only too aware of the fact that kindness is often too much to expect. Fortunately for me, that is your problem and not mine.
Kindness? There's not much of that around here imo.
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Kindness? There's not much of that around here imo.
How do you cope on Websleuths where you’re not able to get your nasty little digs into the McCanns quite so easily?
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How do you cope on Websleuths where you’re not able to get your nasty little digs into the McCanns quite so easily?
Fine thank you. Most of the things I have been accused of here weren't true anyway.
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Fine thank you. Most of the things I have been accused of here weren't true anyway.
In your opinion.
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There are Opinions and there are Facts. The two are sometimes confused. But after sixteen years and no luck with convicting The McCanns it now seems to be time to hound The McCann Twins. Or at least to deprive them of any protection from vociferous hatred. Hatred that stems entirely from Sceptics who have so miserably failed in their misbegotten endeavours.
I would tread very carefully if I were them.
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What a pathetic post 😥 but no surprises there.
I would have thought your post was more pathetic .. highlighting it and bringing it here in the first place B.
Obviously there will have been a lot of thought and family dissuasion about this initiative. Bravo!
Seems you were well wrong about that.
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There are Opinions and there are Facts. The two are sometimes confused. But after sixteen years and no luck with convicting The McCanns it now seems to be time to hound The McCann Twins. Or at least to deprive them of any protection from vociferous hatred. Hatred that stems entirely from Sceptics who have so miserably failed in their misbegotten endeavours.
I would tread very carefully if I were them.
What on earth are you talking about?
Who has expressed any hatred of the twins?
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What on earth are you talking about?
Who has expressed any hatred of the twins?
Are you stalking me?
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There are Opinions and there are Facts. The two are sometimes confused. But after sixteen years and no luck with convicting The McCanns it now seems to be time to hound The McCann Twins. Or at least to deprive them of any protection from vociferous hatred. Hatred that stems entirely from Sceptics who have so miserably failed in their misbegotten endeavours.
I would tread very carefully if I were them.
I notice Tracy Kandola, a long term McCann supporter, didn't mind writing the story in the tabloids.
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Madeleine McCann's parents say 'we're waiting for you' in 20th birthday message
In a Facebook post on the official Find Madeleine Campaign page, they wrote: “Happy birthday Madeleine! We love you and we’re waiting for you. We’re never going to give up.”
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccanns-parents-say-were-29960268
Someone really should tell them that she was murdered by Christian Brueckner.
Someone other than Wolters, who is in possession of ALL the FACTS & EVIDENCE.
Why do the McCanns doubt Wolters?
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Madeleine McCann's parents say 'we're waiting for you' in 20th birthday message
In a Facebook post on the official Find Madeleine Campaign page, they wrote: “Happy birthday Madeleine! We love you and we’re waiting for you. We’re never going to give up.”
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccanns-parents-say-were-29960268
Someone really should tell them that she was murdered by Christian Brueckner.
Someone other than Wolters, who is in possession of ALL the FACTS & EVIDENCE.
Why do the McCanns doubt Wolters?
They are entitled to their opinion which I'm sure you will go to the death to defend ;]
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How do sceptics square the McCanns' scepticism regarding HCW's claims with their own beliefs that the McCanns dunnit? How in the name of all that is logical and plausible do they explain why the McCanns would refuse to accept the German opinion that Madeleine was murdered by a paedophile when such an opinion gets them completely off the hook wrt to any direct involvement in their daughter's disappearance?
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How do sceptics square the McCanns' scepticism regarding HCW's claims with their own beliefs that the McCanns dunnit? How in the name of all that is logical and plausible do they explain why the McCanns would refuse to accept the German opinion that Madeleine was murdered by a paedophile when such an opinion gets them completely off the hook wrt to any direct involvement in their daughter's disappearance?
Don't be silly. Sceptics don't think. They know The McCanns dunnit and that's the end of that.
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Don't be silly. Sceptics don't think. They know The McCanns dunnit and that's the end of that.
There are certainl things they really don’t like to spend too much time thinking about and this is certainly one of them. I expect the troll will give some smartarse response but guaranteed it won’t make be either plausible or logical.
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How do sceptics square the McCanns' scepticism regarding HCW's claims with their own beliefs that the McCanns dunnit? How in the name of all that is logical and plausible do they explain why the McCanns would refuse to accept the German opinion that Madeleine was murdered by a paedophile when such an opinion gets them completely off the hook wrt to any direct involvement in their daughter's disappearance?
Wolters opinion doesn't get them off the hook. Only evidence can do that, & they know Wolters doesn't really have any. It's the rest of you who still can't figure that out.
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Of course there is also the sceptic belief that even if it never comes to court the Germans have done enough to make sure that the public at large will always believe that CB murdered Madeleine. Nothing short of a full confession by a.n. other supported by evidence is likely to change that official narrative. Again, why would the McCanns (having allegedly done away with their daughter) seek to cast any doubts whatsoever on this convenient narrative? Nope, there is no logical answer to that.
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Of course there is also the sceptic belief that even if it never comes to court the Germans have done enough to make sure that the public at large will always believe that CB murdered Madeleine. Nothing short of a full confession by a.n. other supported by evidence is likely to change that official narrative. Again, why would the McCanns (having allegedly done away with their daughter) seek to cast any doubts whatsoever on this convenient narrative? Nope, there is no logical answer to that.
This is the clincher for you is It?
The McCanns must be innocent because they doubt Wolters?
It's almost as daft as davels notion that Brueckner isn't suing, therefore he's guilty.
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Like I said, no logical answer just ridicule for something I didn’t actually say or claim. The very definition of a troll.
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Like I said, no logical answer just ridicule for something I didn’t actually say or claim. The very definition of a troll.
The McCanns will NEVER give up the search for Madeleine.What is it you don't understand about that?
Their website continues to state that there is absolutely nothing to suggest that Madeleine has been harmed. It's going to stay like that until they're both dead & no amount of local burgling Paedophiles will ever change it.
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The McCanns will NEVER give up the search for Madeleine.What is it you don't understand about that?
Their website continues to state that there is absolutely nothing to suggest that Madeleine has been harmed. It's going to stay like that until they're both dead & no amount of local burgling Paedophiles will ever change it.
It'll be interesting to see what happens if CB is convicted of murder.
Will McCann still insist that she came to no harm or will they accept the verdict and that they will have been wrong for close on twenty years?
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It'll be interesting to see what happens if CB is convicted of murder.
Will McCann still insist that she came to no harm or will they accept the verdict and that they will have been wrong for close on twenty years?
Interesting? Goodness me. How sick is that?
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Interesting? Goodness me. How sick is that?
Not very for anyone not emotionally involved.
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Not very for anyone not emotionally involved.
So why are you interested?
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It'll be interesting to see what happens if CB is convicted of murder.
Will McCann still insist that she came to no harm or will they accept the verdict and that they will have been wrong for close on twenty years?
LOL, what twisted crap is this that you are spouting? How are the McCanns wrong if a paedophile is convicted of abducting and murdering their child?
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So why are you interested?
Jassi claims not to be emotionally invested but she seems to have forgotten how clear she has made it that she detests the McCanns and wishes them only bad things. That is being emotionally involved, but she can't even see it.
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Jassi claims not to be emotionally invested but she seems to have forgotten how clear she has made it that she detests the McCanns and wishes them only bad things. That is being emotionally involved, but she can't even see it.
When has she said that? I would have clicked like on that post if I'd seen it, & I don't give out many likes.
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So why are you interested?
Because it is interesting.
I've no personal involvement with anyone in this case at all, but interested to see how it eventually pans out.
Its of no consequence to me what good/bad things befall people along the way.
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Because it is interesting.
I've no personal involvement with anyone in this case at all, but interested to see how it eventually pans out.
Its of no consequence to me what good/bad things befall people along the way.
This is a bit sad. And not at all like you as I perceive you to be.
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This is a bit sad. And not at all like you as I perceive you to be.
I've found it all profoundly sad for quite a long time now. We have learned that "empathy" is some sort of dirty word for some people. When empathy is one of the most important things separating man from beast.
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I've found it all profoundly sad for quite a long time now. We have learned that "empathy" is some sort of dirty word for some people. When empathy is one of the most important things separating man from beast.
It is certainly getting worse, possibly due to a Prime Suspect, whether he is guilty or innocent.
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It is certainly getting worse, possibly due to a Prime Suspect, whether he is guilty or innocent.
He's innocent.
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I've found it all profoundly sad for quite a long time now. We have learned that "empathy" is some sort of dirty word for some people. When empathy is one of the most important things separating man from beast.
Are rats 'beasts' I wonder?
In a famous 1958 experiment, hungry rats that were only fed if they pulled a lever to shock their littermates refused to do so, suggesting that the rodents have a sense of empathy and compassion for their fellows.
https://www.livescience.com/24800-animals-emotions-morality.html
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Are rats 'beasts' I wonder?
In a famous 1958 experiment, hungry rats that were only fed if they pulled a lever to shock their littermates refused to do so, suggesting that the rodents have a sense of empathy and compassion for their fellows.
https://www.livescience.com/24800-animals-emotions-morality.html
I can see the parallels to some animal featured on this Forum. When will the rats leave the sinking ship I have to wonder?
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Are rats 'beasts' I wonder?
In a famous 1958 experiment, hungry rats that were only fed if they pulled a lever to shock their littermates refused to do so, suggesting that the rodents have a sense of empathy and compassion for their fellows.
https://www.livescience.com/24800-animals-emotions-morality.html
Shocking to realise that some human beings have less empathy than rats....thanks for sharing.
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I would rather be an Elephant if no one minds.
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I have learned that some people are arrogant enough to think that their belief in their own opinions excuses their own truly awful behaviour.
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I have learned that some people are arrogant enough to think that their belief in their own opinions excuses their own truly awful behaviour.
Too Right. Well Said.
PS. Thanks for the apology.
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I empathise & care deeply about Christian Brueckner. Does that count?
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I empathise & care deeply about Christian Brueckner. Does that count?
We all care about Brueckner. Locked up 24/7 in isolation and in fear of his life, where he can't sexually abuse any more women or children.
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I have learned that some people are arrogant enough to think that their belief in their own opinions excuses their own truly awful behaviour.
Truly awful behaviour? Like Amaral's you mean? Or who else are you talking about?
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I have learned that some people are arrogant enough to think that their belief in their own opinions excuses their own truly awful behaviour.
Have you learnt enough to understand that's just your opinion or are you so arrogant you think it's fact
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Have you learnt enough to understand that's just your opinion or are you so arrogant you think it's fact
One has to laugh sometimes.
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There really is nothing to talk about in the case against the abductor right now. No annual update from Wolters. This time last year he was telling Sandra F about the fibres from Maddie's pyjamas that weren't found in Brueckner's campervan.
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I have learned that some people are arrogant enough to think that their belief in their own opinions excuses their own truly awful behaviour.
Please accept the "like" I have given your post. Have you really missed the irony 🤣
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Too Right. Well Said.
PS. Thanks for the apology.
Great minds really do think alike, I've just checked the "likes"
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Great minds really do think alike, I've just checked the "likes"
It utterly gobsmacked me and that takes some doing on this Forum these days.
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It's clear that the level of understanding displayed by some is very low.
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It's clear that the level of understanding displayed by some is very low.
I agree with that as well.
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It's clear that the level of understanding displayed by some is very low.
That’s rather rude, not to mention inaccurate. If you’re going to throw around accusations about “truly awful” behaviour and low levels of understanding then expect to have your chain yanked in replies.
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That’s rather rude, not to mention inaccurate. If you’re going to throw around accusations about “truly awful” behaviour and low levels of understanding then expect to have your chain yanked in replies.
My posts are a reaction to those made by others, so maybe those should be re-thought.
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My posts are a reaction to those made by others, so maybe those should be re-thought.
Or we could just have a little snigger about your posts
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My posts are a reaction to those made by others, so maybe those should be re-thought.
You appear to be deluded. There is no evidence whatsoever that The McCanns were involved in the disappearance of their daughter and we have every right to say so when aspersions are cast upon their honesty by persons like you. So it is the likes of you who are causing the problems. And that is a Fact.
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My posts are a reaction to those made by others, so maybe those should be re-thought.
So whose behaviour were you critiquing as “truly awful”?
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So whose behaviour were you critiquing as “truly awful”?
You won't get an answer to that, I bet.
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I agree with that as well.
Me too.
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Or we could just have a little snigger about your posts
Snigger away, but remember the adage about he who laughs last.
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I've learned the word snigger doesn't auto correct to s******
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You appear to be deluded. There is no evidence whatsoever that The McCanns were involved in the disappearance of their daughter and we have every right to say so when aspersions are cast upon their honesty by persons like you. So it is the likes of you who are causing the problems. And that is a Fact.
I'll see your 'no evidence whatsoever against the McCanns' and raise you Martin Smiths sighting.
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I'll see your 'no evidence whatsoever against the McCanns' and raise you Martin Smiths sighting.
The media said Mr Smith withdrew that allegation; but he didn't. Many people think he was mistaken, but are prepared to believe those who saw 'suspicious' people in PdL who, the media tell us, are now prepared to say it was CB they saw.
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The media said Mr Smith withdrew that allegation; but he didn't. Many people think he was mistaken, but are prepared to believe those who saw 'suspicious' people in PdL who, the media tell us, are now prepared to say it was CB they saw.
Is that it?
60 to 80% sure when Mr Smith didn't even see the man's face and the rest of his large family disagreed with him about it being Gerry. That one bombed out years ago.
I have no thoughts on it being Brueckner, but then I pay Brueckner the courtesy of Innocent Until Proven Guilty. Perhaps you should give that one a go.
Where or not Brueckner will ever be charged with the abduction and murder of Madeleine McCann remains to be seen. I do know that The McCanns never will be.
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Is that it?
60 to 80% sure when Mr Smith didn't even see the man's face and the rest of his large family disagreed with him about it being Gerry. That one bombed out years ago.
I have no thoughts on it being Brueckner, but then I pay Brueckner the courtesy of Innocent Until Proven Guilty. Perhaps you should give that one a go.
Where or not Brueckner will ever be charged with the abduction and murder of Madeleine McCann remains to be seen. I do know that The McCanns never will be.
Neither will Brueckner. You can take that to the bank. The McCanns will never be giving up the search for Madeleine, that means never, they've said so enough times. Even the concrete evidence against the murderer, gathered by the continued cooperation of the three expert investigative forces, isn't enough to convince them their missing daughter is dead.
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The media said Mr Smith withdrew that allegation; but he didn't. Many people think he was mistaken, but are prepared to believe those who saw 'suspicious' people in PdL who, the media tell us, are now prepared to say it was CB they saw.
Some here are content to ignore what DCI Redwood had to say about the Tanner sighting & continue to believe she witnessed Madeleine's abduction. But then, Brueckner owned some wigs, so maybe it was him.
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It's called Hope, Folks. Life without Hope is hardly worth living. And if as some say, this Hope is ridiculous, why are some of you still here Hoping to prove that The McCanns done it?
Such a horrible and pointless Hope which is never going to happen.
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It's called Hope, Folks. Life without Hope is hardly worth living. And if as some say, this Hope is ridiculous, why are some of you still here Hoping to prove that The McCanns done it?
Such a horrible and pointless Hope which is never going to happen.
Some of us are not hoping to prove the McCanns did anything, and haven't said they did. I don't know what happened to that little girl, but I do know that there wasn't definitive evidence that a stranger entered 5A and abducted her.
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Some of us are not hoping to prove the McCanns did anything, and haven't said they did. I don't know what happened to that little girl, but I do know that there wasn't definitive evidence that a stranger entered 5A and abducted her.
So what are you suggesting did happen? Or are you just peeing into the wind? For certain sure the pee pee is blowing back onto you with your nasty innuendos.
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Some of us are not hoping to prove the McCanns did anything, and haven't said they did. I don't know what happened to that little girl, but I do know that there wasn't definitive evidence that a stranger entered 5A and abducted her.
Wolters can prove Madeleine was taken in a criminal act by Christian Brueckner. He's just got to get his other crimes dealt with first. Madeline will just have to wait. But, mark my words, this time next year, Brueckner will be charged, then the party will truly be over for sceptics. Wolters has solved the case. So he said anyway. Although, he doesn't have much of anything to say right now.
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Wolters can prove Madeleine was taken in a criminal act by Christian Brueckner. He's just got to get his other crimes dealt with first. Madeline will just have to wait. But, mark my words, this time next year, Brueckner will be charged, then the party will truly be over for sceptics. Wolters has solved the case. So he said anyway. Although, he doesn't have much of anything to say right now.
While you as usual talk a pile of claptrap with nothing sensible to say at all.
In fact you are The Sceptics worst enemy and serving to prove that Sceptics are all raving bonkers.
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Some of us are not hoping to prove the McCanns did anything, and haven't said they did. I don't know what happened to that little girl, but I do know that there wasn't definitive evidence that a stranger entered 5A and abducted her.
One would have hoped you would have got over your angst by now. It has been over sixteen years by now.
Maybe you should think of taking a more proactive solution. Madeleine's parents did. And lo and behold, all these years down the line their efforts have resulted in a suspect being in the frame.
Work it out! A criminal - a paedophile - a rapist! What's not to like about this person? Well we'll maybe find out a little more once we hear about the five charges for crimes against women and children that he's doing his best to keep out of court.
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While you as usual talk a pile of claptrap with nothing sensible to say at all.
In fact you are The Sceptics worst enemy and serving to prove that Sceptics are all raving bonkers.
You've never said a truer word.
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You've never said a truer word.
Thank You. Am I right or am I right? Some of them even "Like" Spammy's mad ramblings.
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The media said Mr Smith withdrew that allegation; but he didn't. Many people think he was mistaken, but are prepared to believe those who saw 'suspicious' people in PdL who, the media tell us, are now prepared to say it was CB they saw.
Did Mr Smith definitively say he saw Gerry McCann without doubt? Because I seem to recall that he wasn't sure. His sighting is evidence he saw someone carrying a child, someone who he thought might be Gerry McCann based purely on the way he was carrying the child. Given that numerous witnesses in this case have stated things with 100% certainty and proven wrong how much weight should we give the Smith sighting? Is it evidence that Gerry McCann was involved in hiding his daughter's body at a time when others have put him at the restaurant?
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Did Mr Smith definitively say he saw Gerry McCann without doubt? Because I seem to recall that he wasn't sure. His sighting is evidence he saw someone carrying a child, someone who he thought might be Gerry McCann based purely on the way he was carrying the child. Given that numerous witnesses in this case have stated things with 100% certainty and proven wrong how much weight should we give the Smith sighting? Is it evidence that Gerry McCann was involved in hiding his daughter's body at a time when others have put him at the restaurant?
Others place him at the tapas, that's their evidence, true. That would be exculpatory evidence. So, Smiths 60 to 80% ID would also be evidence, wouldn't it.
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Others place him at the tapas, that's their evidence, true. That would be exculpatory evidence. So, Smiths 60 to 80% ID would also be evidence, wouldn't it.
No.
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No.
Why not? Can you explain to me why the witnesses at the tapas can give their evidence, but Martin Smith cannot?
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Why not? Can you explain to me why the witnesses at the tapas can give their evidence, but Martin Smith cannot?
You don't know much about The Law do you. Rhetorical Question.
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You don't know much about The Law do you. Rhetorical Question.
I'll take that as a no then.
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Witness statements are evidence. It's a simple enough concept that some seem unable to grasp. The McCanns have given their evidence, the other Tapas Guests did also, & so did Martin Smith. They have all presented evidence, haven't they? If not, then, What???
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Mr. Smith, are you sure it was Gerry McCann? No. End of.
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Mr. Smith, are you sure it was Gerry McCann? No. End of.
Mr Smith: But I'm more certain than not that it was him.
You see, you just presented the argument as if within a court setting. So the witness Mr Smith would be giving evidence, wouldn't he?
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No.
I (respectfully) disagree. It is evidence as pretty much everything collected in the files could be construed as such, but insofar as helping to prove that Gerry McCann carried his child's corpse through town past a large group of strangers I think it is extraordinarily weak and virtually worthless on its own. Should there have been several sightings of a man looking like Gerry walking through town at the same time carrying a child then it would have been given more credence. As it was several witnesses put Gerry in the Tapas restaurant at around the time of the sighting and that is why the PJ concluded it was not him.
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Imagine for a moment if you will, that Smith had been 60/80% he saw Brueckner. But, Brueckner maintained he was romancing in his camper at the time. I'm pretty sure we'd have to agree that, weak though it may be, it would be evidence against him.
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Mr. Smith's "Evidence" would never have seen the inside of a Court Room.
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Mr. Smith's "Evidence" would never have seen the inside of a Court Room.
True, possibly, but completely beside the point. At least we've finally come to understand what evidence is.
It's demonstrably false to say that there is no evidence whatsoever against the McCanns. Perhaps you could avoid making this claim again in future & I can get back to tending my hanging baskets. The Petunias have spread & are beginning to flower quite nicely as it happens.
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Is False Evidence actually Evidence?
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I think it would need to be proved to be false before it could be discarded as non-evidence.
For example if someone made a statement to the effect that person X was present in a certain place at a certain time, that would be evidence, unless it was proved to be untrue. ie a false alibi.
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I think it would need to be proved to be false before it could be discarded as non-evidence.
For example if someone made a statement to the effect that person X was present in a certain place at a certain time, that would be evidence, unless it was proved to be untrue. ie a false alibi.
So seven people giving someone an alibi are hardly likely to be lying.
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So seven people giving someone an alibi are hardly likely to be lying.
Unless it was a deliberate conspiracy to pervert the course of justice by providing false alibis.
I believe criminals do it all the time. Even MPs have been known to use such antics.
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Unless it was a deliberate conspiracy to pervert the course of justice by providing false alibis.
I believe criminals do it all the time. Even MPs have been known to use such antics.
and so there we have it. A deliberate conspiracy amongst the Tapas 9 is really the only way that the Smith sighting can possibly be given legitimacy. But how often are we told by sceptics on here that they don’t think there was any conspiracy? Guys, you can’t have it both ways, sorry.
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So seven people giving someone an alibi are hardly likely to be lying.
They could have been mistaken about the exact time.
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Pass the sick bowl please. This sort of repetitive nonsense requires one and another on standby. Simply incredible!
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and so there we have it. A deliberate conspiracy amongst the Tapas 9 is really the only way that the Smith sighting can possibly be given legitimacy. But how often are we told by sceptics on here that they don’t think there was any conspiracy? Guys, you can’t have it both ways, sorry.
I would have been less incredulous if Peter had remembered he wasn't dreaming it but may actually have lived it.
Some stereotypes are actually bolstered on occasion and I think this episode may well be one of them.
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Pass the sick bowl please. This sort of repetitive nonsense requires one and another on standby. Simply incredible!
It was easily avoidable. If Eleanor hadn't claimed there was no evidence at all against the McCanns I wouldn't have needed to remind her that there actually is.
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It was easily avoidable. If Eleanor hadn't claimed there was no evidence at all against the McCanns I wouldn't have needed to remind her that there actually is.
There isn't.
Mr. Smith never saw the man's face. The rest of his large family disagreed with him and nearly five months later he saw Gerry carrying a sleeping child in the only way anyone would carry a sleeping child. That is not evidence against either of The McCanns.
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There isn't.
Mr. Smith never saw the man's face. The rest of his large family disagreed with him and nearly five months later he saw Gerry carrying a sleeping child in the only way anyone would carry a sleeping child. That is not evidence against either of The McCanns.
Davel has previously conceded Smiths ID of Gerry was 'very weak evidence', VS has now had the good grace to admit it is weak evidence.
If it isn't evidence IYO, can you explain what it is Then?
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Davel has previously conceded Smiths ID of Gerry was 'very weak evidence', VS has now had the good grace to admit it is weak evidence.
If it isn't evidence IYO, can you explain what it is Then?
Speculation.
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Speculation.
It's Smiths witness testimony. Evidence, in other words. That's what witness statements are.
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If Tamsin S said she was 60-80% sure she saw Brueckner, that would be evidence against Brueckner. Wouldn't you Agree?
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If Tamsin S said she was 60-80% sure she saw Brueckner, that would be evidence against Brueckner. Wouldn't you Agree?
No I wouldn't.
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No I wouldn't.
Ok dear. It's clear you haven't fully grasped the concept of evidence.
You go back to bleating that there's no evidence whatsoever against the McCanns if it makes you feel better. It doesn't make it true though.
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Ok dear. It's clear you haven't fully grasped the concept of evidence.
You go back to bleating that there's no evidence whatsoever against the McCanns if it makes you feel better. It doesn't make it true though.
Why have The McCanns never been arrested?
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Why have The McCanns never been arrested?
Insufficient (not 'no') evidence.
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Insufficient (not 'no') evidence.
Same as Murat. Insufficient (not "no") evidence.
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Insufficient (not 'no') evidence.
The very same thing. If it isn't admissable In Court then it isn't Evidence.
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Insufficient (not 'no') evidence.
So the open window is evidence of abduction.
And lots of evidence against CB
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So the open window is evidence of abduction.
And lots of evidence against CB
Don't be silly. They don't want to know about all of that mountainous pile of old rubbish.
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So the open window is evidence of abduction.
And lots of evidence against CB
Yes, the open window was described by Kate. That's her evidence of abduction. CB confessed to Busching, that's the evidence against him, and Martin Smith believed he saw Gerry. That's his evidence against Gerry.
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There's evidence that Madeleine travelled the world after her disappearance as hundreds if not thousands of people claim (some with 100% certainty) to have seen her. Are these eye witness statements not at least as important as Martin Smith's?
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There's evidence that Madeleine travelled the world after her disappearance as hundreds if not thousands of people claim (some with 100% certainty) to have seen her. Are these eye witness statements not at least as important as Martin Smith's?
Absolutely. And probably more so. They actually know that they saw Madeleine. So wheel that lot into Court.
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Absolutely. And probably more so. They actually know that they saw Madeleine. So wheel that lot into Court.
Yes, if I was Brueckner's lawyer I'd be introducing into evidence some 8000 sightings of a living Maddie. Plenty for Wolters to get through.
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Yes, if I was Brueckner's lawyer I'd be introducing into evidence some 8000 sightings of a living Maddie. Plenty for Wolters to get through.
All Wolters has to do is to produce Evidence that Brueckner Abducted Madeleine.
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All Wolters has to do is to produce Evidence that Brueckner Abducted Madeleine.
His failure to provide such evidence to the child's parents says it all imo.
Put yourself in the McCann's shoes for a moment. If this was your child wouldn't you want to know if she is dead or alive?
Wolters refusal to provide such information to Kate and Gerry is indicative that he is has no credibility whatsoever in this case. I would go further and say that his actions are cruel and wholly unprofessional towards the parents of a long-term missing child.
His obvious attempts to procure a witness by underhand means has backfired on him imo.
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His failure to provide such evidence to the child's parents says it all imo.
Put yourself in the McCann's shoes for a moment. If this was your child wouldn't you want to know if she is dead or alive?
Wolters refusal to provide such information to Kate and Gerry is indicative that he is unreliable.
No John. Wolters has made it absoloutely clear that Madeleine is dead, that there is no hope she is alive. The McCanns just have to trust the word of the official spokesman for the BKA, but it appears they just don't.
Some members here are quite convinced by him though.
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All Wolters has to do is to produce Evidence that Brueckner Abducted Madeleine.
Should be easy enough, considering the amount of abduction evidence the three investigative forces have at their disposal. That & the murder evidence. There's no shortage of evidence against Brueckner. One could begin to wonder why he still hasn't been charged.
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His failure to provide such evidence to the child's parents says it all imo.
Put yourself in the McCann's shoes for a moment. If this was your child wouldn't you want to know if she is dead or alive?
Wolters refusal to provide such information to Kate and Gerry is indicative that he is has no credibility whatsoever in this case. I would go further and say that his actions are cruel and wholly unprofessional towards the parents of a long-term missing child.
His obvious attempts to procure a witness by underhand means has backfired on him imo.
If this is still true to this day then I agree, it is cruel. But perhaps it is done with the best intentions and not deliberately to be cruel? And perhaps he HAS now divulged what information he has to the parents. We simply don't know. I mean if I WERE in the McCanns' shoes and such definitive information had been withheld from me I would be using the media to complain loudly about such a situation. There must be a reason why they have remained reasonably silent on the matter for the last year or so.
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The very same thing. If it isn't admissable In Court then it isn't Evidence.
Some evidence awakens suspicion; like a phone call made to a phone which may have belonged to your suspect for example. That wasn't evidence then.
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Some evidence awakens suspicion; like a phone call made to a phone which may have belonged to your suspect for example. That wasn't evidence then.
I don't know if it was evidence. It isn't for me to decide. And I don't know if it will be used in Court.
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I sometimes wonder if some of you know what "Beyond Reasonable Doubt". means.
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I sometimes wonder if some of you know what "Beyond Reasonable Doubt". means.
No one has mentioned proof. Evidence, yes, but not proof.
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I don't know if it was evidence. It isn't for me to decide. And I don't know if it will be used in Court.
Evidence is gathered but not all of it is used in court. That doesn't mean it's not evidence.
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Evidence is gathered but not all of it is used in court. That doesn't mean it's not evidence.
If it isn't acceptable to The Court then it isn't Evidence.
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If it isn't acceptable to The Court then it isn't Evidence.
There are different types of evidence. You are fixating upon one type only.
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There are different types of evidence. You are fixating upon one type only.
What Type is that?
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What Type is that?
That which is used in court to prove the accusation beyond reasonable doubt. I would have thought you knew this, but maybe reading this will help you to understand.
https://www.draycottbrowne.co.uk/investigations/types-evidence
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That which is used in court to prove the accusation beyond reasonable doubt. I would have thought you knew this, but maybe reading this will help you to understand.
https://www.draycottbrowne.co.uk/investigations/types-evidence
Thank You. Good stuff is that, which entirely proves my point.
As it is, The McCanns have never appeared In Court on this matter, or even been charged. Consequently your Cite is irrelevant. There is still No Evidence against The McCanns as only A Court can decide what is Evidence and what Isn't.
As for Brueckner, the same applies. And I shall continue to support his right to Innocence Until Proven Guilty.
Just as a matter of interest, do you ever actually read the Cites you produce?
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Thank You. Good stuff is that, which entirely proves my point.
As it is, The McCanns have never appeared In Court on this matter, or even been charged. Consequently your Cite is irrelevant. There is still No Evidence against The McCanns as only A Court can decide what is Evidence and what Isn't.
As for Brueckner, the same applies. And I shall continue to support his right to Innocence Until Proven Guilty.
Just as a matter of interest, do you ever actually read the Cites you produce?
Ok, so no evidence of abduction then, if only a court can decide if there is evidence or not.
What do you base your belief Madeleine was abducted on? Bearing in mind there's absolutely no evidence whatsoever of abduction?
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Ok, so no evidence of abduction then, if only a court can decide if there is evidence or not.
What do you base your belief Madeleine was abducted on? Bearing in mind there's absolutely no evidence whatsoever of abduction?
Neither The McCanns or I have to prove anything. Do you not understand The Law at all?
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Thank You. Good stuff is that, which entirely proves my point.
As it is, The McCanns have never appeared In Court on this matter, or even been charged. Consequently your Cite is irrelevant. There is still No Evidence against The McCanns as only A Court can decide what is Evidence and what Isn't.
As for Brueckner, the same applies. And I shall continue to support his right to Innocence Until Proven Guilty.
Just as a matter of interest, do you ever actually read the Cites you produce?
Wheesht Eleanor! At least after all these years something HAS penetrated and been learned. Who would have thunk it that there is such a thing as evidence and the requirement of which is necessary to pass judgement on our fellow human beings.
Now all that is required is the acknowledgement that the "human beings" bit includes the McCanns 🙂
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Neither The McCanns or I have to prove anything. Do you not understand The Law at all?
I'm not asking you to prove anything. I asked you what you base your belief on. Can you even Read?
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No evidence Madeleine was in her bed at 9pm, as Gerry claims. No, she just wasn't there, until proven so in a court of law.
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Neither The McCanns or I have to prove anything. Do you not understand The Law at all?
Some ground has been broken with the dawning of the requirement for evidence. Even a little smattering of what evidence actually is. It's a start I suppose. But there is a waaaaaaaaaaaay to go yet.
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Thank You. Good stuff is that, which entirely proves my point.
As it is, The McCanns have never appeared In Court on this matter, or even been charged. Consequently your Cite is irrelevant. There is still No Evidence against The McCanns as only A Court can decide what is Evidence and what Isn't.
As for Brueckner, the same applies. And I shall continue to support his right to Innocence Until Proven Guilty.
Just as a matter of interest, do you ever actually read the Cites you produce?
Perhaps you should inform all the police forces wordwide who are busy collecting evidence that there's no point then.
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Some ground has been broken with the dawning of the requirement for evidence. Even a little smattering of what evidence actually is. It's a start I suppose. But there is a waaaaaaaaaaaay to go yet.
What do you base your belief in Brueckner's guilt on, by the way?
You seem certain he's going to face trial some day. What is your belief founded upon, if not evidence? Oh wait, I know, it's because Wolters said so, isn't it.The strongest form of evidence known to man.
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I'm not asking you to prove anything. I asked you what you base your belief on. Can you even Read?
Much too clever for you. I only deal in logic.
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Much too clever for you. I only deal in logic.
Ok, using logic, explain what you base your belief Madeleine was abducted upon?
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Perhaps you should inform all the police forces wordwide who are busy collecting evidence that there's no point then.
It is a puzzler isn't it. What is it the police spend their time gathering, if not evidence?
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Perhaps you should inform all the police forces wordwide who are busy collecting evidence that there's no point then.
These Police Forces collect whatever and then someone has to decide if it is relevant. I don't have a problem with that. But you obviously do.
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Ok, using logic, explain what you base your belief Madeleine was abducted upon?
Logic.
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These Police Forces collect whatever and then someone has to decide if it is relevant. I don't have a problem with that. But you obviously do.
They collect whatever. That's a good one. The bloodied knife at the murder scene is 'whatever' until a judge decides if it is evidence or not. Brilliant @)(++(*
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Logic.
So you say. But talk me through it. There's no evidence whatsoever Madeleine was in the apartment available to be abducted, so how does logic dictate she was abducted from within it?
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They collect whatever. That's a good one. The bloodied knife at the murder scene is 'whatever' until a judge decides if it is evidence or not. Brilliant @)(++(*
What a very silly comment.
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What a very silly comment.
It's of your creation. You seem to believe evidence is just whatever ,until a judge deems it is evidence.
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So you say. But talk me through it. There's no evidence whatsoever Madeleine was in the apartment available to be abducted, so how does logic dictate she was abducted from within it?
I presume that you can prove that Madeleine wasn't in The Appartment. Of course you can't. I think that you are losing the plot.
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It's of your creation. You seem to believe evidence is just whatever ,until a judge deems it is evidence.
I really can't be bothered. I shall have to go back to ignoring you.
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Thank You. Good stuff is that, which entirely proves my point.
As it is, The McCanns have never appeared In Court on this matter, or even been charged. Consequently your Cite is irrelevant. There is still No Evidence against The McCanns as only A Court can decide what is Evidence and what Isn't.
As for Brueckner, the same applies. And I shall continue to support his right to Innocence Until Proven Guilty.
Just as a matter of interest, do you ever actually read the Cites you produce?
As there is insufficient evidence to take the McCanns to court
..if they were taken they would be found not guilty....and therefore cleared.
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As there is insufficient evidence to take the McCanns to court
..if they were taken they would be found not guilty....and therefore cleared.
Has anyone ever stated what that Insufficient Evidence is?
Thought not.
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Has anyone ever stated what that Insufficient Evidence is?
Thought not.
It's not difficult. HCW seems to be heading in the same direction; not enough evidence to bring charges.
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As there is insufficient evidence to take the McCanns to court
..if they were taken they would be found not guilty....and therefore cleared.
You and I might somewhat disagree on what is Evidence, but not by very much.
However, the game has changed a bit because Sceptics as ever are losing the argument and so semantics come into play. But they aren't very good at that either and therefor continue to make fools of themselves with their downright nasty innuendos which are often bordering on Libel.
The bottom line is that The McCanns will never be implicated in the disappearance of their daughter. Because there is No Evidence, let alone Proof.
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It's not difficult. HCW seems to be heading in the same direction; not enough evidence to bring charges.
Time will tell on that one.
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It's not difficult. HCW seems to be heading in the same direction; not enough evidence to bring charges.
No he isn't....five sex offences to prosecute first..
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It's not difficult. HCW seems to be heading in the same direction; not enough evidence to bring charges.
You think. I simply don't know. That is the difference between thee and me.
I have spent many years trying to get my head around Portuguese Law, which has left me entirely unimpressed. And now I have to try to understand German Law, if I so choose of course.
It has been fascinating on occasions. But this isn't about Portugal or Germany. It's about the ages old British Class Barriers.
And I can promise you that you will never meet anyone more Working Class than I am. I just haven't allowed it to define me.
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No he isn't....five sex offences to prosecute first..
I don't think Gunit understands about Concurrent and Consecutive Sentences.
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You think. I simply don't know. That is the difference between thee and me.
I have spent many years trying to get my head around Portuguese Law, which has left me entirely unimpressed. And now I have to try to understand German Law, if I so choose of course.
It has been fascinating on occasions. But this isn't about Portugal or Germany. It's about the ages old British Class Barriers.
And I can promise you that you will never meet anyone more Working Class than I am. I just haven't allowed it to define me.
Yes. Some people think, others react, hope and believe.
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Yes. Some people think, others react, hope and believe.
This comment makes no sense. Word Games again.
There is nothing wrong with Hope. Unless you have none.
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Yes. Some people think, others react, hope and believe.
you hope and believe HCW has got it all wrong, that much I know for a fact.
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you hope and believe HCW has got it all
wrong, that much I know for a fact.
The idea that Wolters is some kind of fantasist..backed by the BKA is totally absurd.
Why is his lawyer doing everything to keep him out of court....
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As there is insufficient evidence to take the McCanns to court
..if they were taken they would be found not guilty....and therefore cleared.
Is there any wonder there was insufficient evidence.... they didn't look for any it seems.
The abduction had to be the only scenario. imo
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The idea that Wolters is some kind of fantasist..backed by the BKA is totally absurd.
Why is his lawyer doing everything to keep him out of court....
Why is his lawyer doing everything to keep him out of court....
At least he only has one ......how many did the mccs have 11 IIRC.
ps sorry Spanish internet playing up and not posting properly.
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Is there any wonder there was insufficient evidence.... they didn't look for any it seems.
The abduction had to be the only scenario. imo
Amaral and the rest of The PJ Team didn't look for Evidence? Well, that's a new one.
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Why is his lawyer doing everything to keep him out of court....
At least he only has one ......how many did the mccs have 11 IIRC.
ps sorry Spanish internet playing up and not posting properly.
Actually he has at least three now so I heard.
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Why is his lawyer doing everything to keep him out of court....
At least he only has one ......how many did the mccs have 11 IIRC.
ps sorry Spanish internet playing up and not posting properly.
Don't be silly about this. As VS says new names have appeared alongside Fulcher's. And unless you wish to call him a liar, they are not the first.
Snip
His German lawyer Friedrich Fuelscher said: “I can confirm we are using UK lawyers.”
But it remains unclear who is paying the lawyers’ fees.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccann-suspect-christian-brueckner-22732762
No legal representation takes place with only one lawyer, not even if all that is being contested is a parking ticket and I think you'll find Brueckner is in deeper trouble than that.
He is well lawyered up. Why aren't you asking who is lifting his bill.
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Don't be silly about this. As VS says new names have appeared alongside Fulcher's. And unless you wish to call him a liar, they are not the first.
Snip
His German lawyer Friedrich Fuelscher said: “I can confirm we are using UK lawyers.”
But it remains unclear who is paying the lawyers’ fees.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccann-suspect-christian-brueckner-22732762
No legal representation takes place with only one lawyer, not even if all that is being contested is a parking ticket and I think you'll find Brueckner is in deeper trouble than that.
He is well lawyered up. Why aren't you asking who is lifting his bill.
Surely no one is doing this for nothing. But who on earth would want to foot the bill?
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I wonder why people assume that the German state doesn't provide legal representation for those who need it?
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I wonder why people assume that the German state doesn't provide legal representation for those who need it?
Philipp Marquort (Kiel) is now quoted as being one of Brueckner's lawyers. Just how far does legal aid stretch in Germany for the man who claims to not have committed any of the crimes he's accused of?
https://www.t-online.de/nachrichten/panorama/justiz/id_100170884/maddie-mccann-mutmasslicher-moerder-im-hungerstreik.html
Is this another delaying tactic, straight out of Amaral's repertoire?
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Philipp Marquort (Kiel) is now quoted as being one of Brueckner's lawyers. Just how far does legal aid stretch in Germany for the man who claims to not have committed any of the crimes he's accused of?
https://www.t-online.de/nachrichten/panorama/justiz/id_100170884/maddie-mccann-mutmasslicher-moerder-im-hungerstreik.html
Is this another delaying tactic, straight out of Amaral's repertoire?
I expect a lot of people in various countries claim, when accused, that they haven't committed the crimes. They still get lawyers paid for by the state if they can't afford their own, and the lawyers appointed then proceed as they think fit.
If, as CB complains, he is being treated differently in prison than others with similar convictions then that needs to be looked at.
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I expect a lot of people in various countries claim, when accused, that they haven't committed the crimes. They still get lawyers paid for by the state if they can't afford their own, and the lawyers appointed then proceed as they think fit.
If, as CB complains, he is being treated differently in prison than others with similar convictions then that needs to be looked at.
Looked at for what reasons? They can't allow him to be bumped off so they are forced to protect him. That much is obvious.
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I expect a lot of people in various countries claim, when accused, that they haven't committed the crimes. They still get lawyers paid for by the state if they can't afford their own, and the lawyers appointed then proceed as they think fit.
If, as CB complains, he is being treated differently in prison than others with similar convictions then that needs to be looked at.
He is a convicted rapist and child abuser. Most such prisoners usually seek the conditions Brueckner objects to for his own protection. Like it or not he is a high profile prisoner who it would seem seeks notoriety and who knows - maybe he has his own protection as well arranged as is his legal protection and high profile/ expensive lawyers.
I await agog for your answer to Misty's question. Germany = legal aid - HOW MUCH is he entitled to from the state??????
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Looked at for what reasons? They can't allow him to be bumped off so they are forced to protect him. That much is obvious.
Why would they think he might be 'bumped off'? Could it be the negative publicity resulting from a state prosecutor declaring him to be a murderer?
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He is a convicted rapist and child abuser. Most such prisoners usually seek the conditions Brueckner objects to for his own protection. Like it or not he is a high profile prisoner who it would seem seeks notoriety and who knows - maybe he has his own protection as well arranged as is his legal protection and high profile/ expensive lawyers.
I await agog for your answer to Misty's question. Germany = legal aid - HOW MUCH is he entitled to from the state??????
He is a high profile prisoner due to a state prosecutor pronouncing him to be a murderer, not due to the crimes he has committed and been convicted of.
If Misty has a question about the scale of legal aid in Germany perhaps she could find it out for herself. Speculating that CB is enjoying a better service than he's entitled to receive is just that; speculation by a suspicious mind.
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He is a high profile prisoner due to a state prosecutor pronouncing him to be a murderer, not due to the crimes he has committed and been convicted of.
If Misty has a question about the scale of legal aid in Germany perhaps she could find it out for herself. Speculating that CB is enjoying a better service than he's entitled to receive is just that; speculation by a suspicious mind.
Brueckner's name is in the public domain because Amaral put it there and you don't answer questions or expand discussion because you either can't or won't. Which your posting history tends to confirm.
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Why would they think he might be 'bumped off'? Could it be the negative publicity resulting from a state prosecutor declaring him to be a murderer?
Could it be the number of sex crimes he has been convicted of?
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He is a high profile prisoner due to a state prosecutor pronouncing him to be a murderer, not due to the crimes he has committed and been convicted of.
If Misty has a question about the scale of legal aid in Germany perhaps she could find it out for herself. Speculating that CB is enjoying a better service than he's entitled to receive is just that; speculation by a suspicious mind.
Says the most suspicious mind ever.
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Could it be the number of sex crimes he has been convicted of?
How many would that be ?
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you hope and believe HCW has got it all wrong, that much I know for a fact.
Has he got anything right so far?
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Time will tell on that one.
Yes, & it shouldn't be much longer now.
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The idea that Wolters is some kind of fantasist..backed by the BKA is totally absurd.
Why is his lawyer doing everything to keep him out of court....
I agree, it's an absurd idea. Has anyone other than yourself suggested it?
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The idea that Wolters is some kind of fantasist..backed by the BKA is totally absurd.
Why is his lawyer doing everything to keep him out of court....
Why is his lawyer doing everything to keep him out of court?
Isn't that precisely what a decent lawyer should do? What a silly question.
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No he isn't....five sex offences to prosecute first..
Delusional.
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It's not difficult. HCW seems to be heading in the same direction; not enough evidence to bring charges.
According to Eleanor, there is no evidence whatsoever against Brueckner, as things stand. Because a judge is yet to decide if the three expert investigative forces have gathered evidence, or just, "whatever", against him.
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Brueckner's name is in the public domain because Amaral put it there and you don't answer questions or expand discussion because you either can't or won't. Which your posting history tends to confirm.
I don't think Amaral released CB's name. Was it mentioned before the 2020 German appeal? Why should I answer Misty's (or anyone else's) questions? Especially questions based on nothing but speculation. The rate of legal aid in Germany seems to be being questioned because some people suspect or wish to infer that CB is being funded by persons unknown. If people have such suspicions it's up to them to provide some evidence to support them, it's not up to anyone else to refute something that probably is untrue and for which no evidence is offered, just inuendo.
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I don't think Amaral released CB's name. Was it mentioned before the 2020 German appeal? Why should I answer Misty's (or anyone else's) questions? Especially questions based on nothing but speculation. The rate of legal aid in Germany seems to be being questioned because some people suspect or wish to infer that CB is being funded by persons unknown. If people have such suspicions it's up to them to provide some evidence to support them, it's not up to anyone else to refute something that probably is untrue and for which no evidence is offered, just inuendo.
They tell me that Calpol has a calming effect. But only to be taken with great care - some folk think it can kill you.
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Why would they think he might be 'bumped off'? Could it be the negative publicity resulting from a state prosecutor declaring him to be a murderer?
Aren't sex offenders in prison quite vulnerable to attack from other prisoners?
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I don't think Amaral released CB's name. Was it mentioned before the 2020 German appeal? Why should I answer Misty's (or anyone else's) questions? Especially questions based on nothing but speculation. The rate of legal aid in Germany seems to be being questioned because some people suspect or wish to infer that CB is being funded by persons unknown. If people have such suspicions it's up to them to provide some evidence to support them, it's not up to anyone else to refute something that probably is untrue and for which no evidence is offered, just inuendo.
https://handbookgermany.de/en/legal-aid
Please note: If you are charged with a crime, you cannot receive legal aid. But if you do not have enough money, the state will pay for your lawyer. You cannot, however, choose a lawyer yourself-- the court will pick a lawyer for you.
A lawyer. Singular.
In October 2020, CB wrote in one of his letters that he had 2 lawyers, Schwenn & Fulscher. The name Marquort has now been added into the mix. I don't agree that it's speculation to presume that legal aid is not being used to fund all three. Having asked "a source close to Fulscher" if Brueckner has changed his lawyer, the response has been a wall of silence. Make of that what you will.
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Aren't sex offenders in prison quite vulnerable to attack from other prisoners?
Perhaps, but he didn't require any protective isolation before Wolters called him a murderer. Can you really not see the connection?
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I thought Fulscher was doing this Pro Bono for the publicity. Didn't he take over from someone else?
How many Pro Bono Lawyers are German suspects allowed to have?
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I thought Fulscher was doing this Pro Bono for the publicity. Didn't he take over from someone else?
How many Pro Bono Lawyers are German suspects allowed to have?
As long as the State isn't paying, I don't suppose there is a limit.
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Amaral and the rest of The PJ Team didn't look for Evidence? Well, that's a new one.
IIRC. Wasnt they stopped mid-flow by UK interference?
Then it seemed abduction took priority.......with no evidence of one.
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Don't be silly about this. As VS says new names have appeared alongside Fulcher's. And unless you wish to call him a liar, they are not the first.
Snip
His German lawyer Friedrich Fuelscher said: “I can confirm we are using UK lawyers.”
But it remains unclear who is paying the lawyers’ fees.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccann-suspect-christian-brueckner-22732762
No legal representation takes place with only one lawyer, not even if all that is being contested is a parking ticket and I think you'll find Brueckner is in deeper trouble than that.
He is well lawyered up. Why aren't you asking who is lifting his bill.
Why aren't you asking who is lifting his bill.
Why should I be asking or caring...who is lifting the bill.
Now that's a silly question
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IIRC. Wasnt they stopped mid-flow by UK interference?
Then it seemed abduction took priority.......with no evidence of one.
All your beliefs from crackpot anti sites..
HCW has proof of abduction...you have a big shock coming
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All your beliefs from crackpot anti sites..
HCW has proof of abduction...you have a big shock coming
Yes dear, OK then. Just remember to get back to us all when Brueckner is charged. It shouldn't be much longer now.
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IIRC. Wasnt they stopped mid-flow by UK interference?
Then it seemed abduction took priority.......with no evidence of one.
There was plenty of evidence of abduction. The McCanns gave their evidence of abduction, & Martin Smith gave his.
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All your beliefs from crackpot anti sites..
HCW has proof of abduction...you have a big shock coming
what sites are they then..........I only go on this one.
Big shock coming.......dream on D.
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what sites are they then..........I only go on this one.
Big shock coming.......dream on D.
Wolters says, kizzy.
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I have long thought that there was a possibility of Brueckner only being charge with Abduction.
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what sites are they then..........I only go on this one.
Big shock coming.......dream on D.
According to the PJ the main evidence against the Mccanns was the dog alerts ... provided by UK police,...so how could theybbe protecting them
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I have long thought that there was a possibility of Brueckner only being charge with Abduction.
Yes, it shouldn't be too difficult to prove, given that Maddie was most definitely abducted, so she was. Really, she was.
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He must have been told after the abduction, but before he ever bothered ringing the police & telling them about the paedophile gangs.
Strange that he omitted such an important detail in his witness statement also.
Gerry found out after the abduction..
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Gerry found out after the abduction..
What abduction?
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According to the PJ the main evidence against the Mccanns was the dog alerts ... provided by UK police,...so how could theybbe protecting them
Did I say they were protecting them,
They started from the abduction theory mid-flow.with no beginning and certainly no end.
Mind you ..Imagine the embarrassment if after all this time they got it wrong to not start from the beginning.
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Did I say they were protecting them,
They started from the abduction theory mid-flow.with no beginning and certainly no end.
Mind you ..Imagine the embarrassment if after all this time they got it wrong to not start from the beginning.
I agree that some are going to look stupid...a
Amaral..grime and many more.
They no doubt will make up excuses.. Amaral already claims DM wasn't raped..no doubt you agree with him
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I agree that some are going to look stupid...a
Amaral..grime and many more.
They no doubt will make up excuses.. Amaral already claims DM wasn't raped..no doubt you agree with him
Do you think people look stupid when they get things wrong? I think it can happen to anyone imo.
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Do you think people look stupid when they get things wrong? I think it can happen to anyone imo.
Depends.... amaral...grime...mark s...pat brown...are professionals....can't you see that.
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Do you think people look stupid when they get things wrong? I think it can happen to anyone imo.
This depends on what stupid people have to say, especially so called Professionals. But No, I don't think these people care. They just move on to their next disaster. Or dream up an alternative explanation.
You can't cure Stupid.
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Depends.... amaral...grime...mark s...pat brown...are professionals....can't you see that.
I can see that you hope those people will all be shown to be wrong in some way. What I don't understand is why you care so much.
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I can see that you hope those people will all be shown to be wrong in some way. What I don't understand is why you care so much.
You're wrong if you think I care so much...but I do care about justice...I think Maddies best chance of justice is with the germans
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I agree that some are going to look stupid...a
Amaral..grime and many more.
They no doubt will make up excuses.. Amaral already claims DM wasn't raped..no doubt you agree with him
Amaral already claims DM wasn't raped..no doubt you agree with him
You see this is why you get things wrong
In your posts, you assume or speculate things that are not true.
You take things far too personally...think you should refrain from calling everyone idiots etc. although.
We have all heard the adage that “The best defense is a good offense”. The thought is that by being proactive rather than passive, you will get a strategic advantage over your opponent by forcing your opponent to be on the defense.
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Amaral already claims DM wasn't raped..no doubt you agree with him
You see this is why you get things wrong
In your posts, you assume or speculate things that are not true.
You take things far too personally...think you should refrain from calling everyone idiots etc. although.
We have all heard the adage that “The best defense is a good offense”. The thought is that by being proactive rather than passive, you will get a strategic advantage over your opponent by forcing your opponent to be on the defense.
Your post doesn't make much sense..amaral claims DM wasn't raped...many sceptics agree with him.. they are wrong
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You're wrong if you think I care so much...but I do care about justice...I think Maddies best chance of justice is with the germans
So forget the past and you can happily wait for the Germans to deliver justice for MM at last!
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So forget the past and you can happily wait for the Germans to deliver justice for MM at last!
Not sure what you are trying to say.
I see several professionals who clearly don't understand ....and then the gullible following them.
Perlins offer re the DNA is one. His analysis wouldn't help in the slightest. He's actually has a case on his website supporting his work that was thrown out on appeal...re touch DNA. But according to so called anti experts he could help solve the case..he couldn't..it's laughable
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You're wrong if you think I care so much...but I do care about justice...I think Maddies best chance of justice is with the germans
The McCanns clearly don't. In their recent message they said they are still waiting for Madeleine & are never giving up. Entirely at odds with Wolters, who has the full backing of the BKA & the concrete murder evidence. You must think they are barking mad.
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So forget the past and you can happily wait for the Germans to deliver justice for MM at last!
Yes, & it shouldn't be much longer now! But no update this year on the 3rd anniversary of the coming of the concrete evidence. Where is Wolters? Maybe he's been abducted.
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Your post doesn't make much sense..amaral claims DM wasn't raped...many sceptics agree with him.. they are wrong
No, it wouldn't make much sense to you....your posts are tunnel vision.
Your posts have an obsession with trying to make posters feel less important than yourself.
What have we learned in 16 years nothing [apart from the prime suspects for abduction].. results in zero.
Maddie disappeared 16 years a go...no one can prove what happened or who was responsible it seems.
IMO the only way of solving this is for fresh eyes to look at it from the begining....not half way through.
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No, it wouldn't make much sense to you....your posts are tunnel vision.
Your posts have an obsession with trying to make posters feel less important than yourself.
What have we learned in 16 years nothing [apart from the prime suspects for abduction].. results in zero.
Maddie disappeared 16 years a go...no one can prove what happened or who was responsible it seems.
IMO the only way of solving this is for fresh eyes to look at it from the begining....not half way through.
The Met offered fresh eyes, so did the Germans, then we've had various other pairs of fresh eyes - MWT, Summers and Swann, Panorama etc etc etc and they all seem to have come to a conclusion which you don't like or agree with, this must be frighfully galling for you and your compatriots but one day you will have to come to accept it.
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The Met offered fresh eyes, so did the Germans, then we've had various other pairs of fresh eyes - MWT, Summers and Swann, Panorama etc etc etc and they all seem to have come to a conclusion which you don't like or agree with, this must be frighfully galling for you and your compatriots but one day you will have to come to accept it.
You included MWT. But he believes Maddie woke & wandered. Meaning Kate must have lied about the open window.
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No, it wouldn't make much sense to you....your posts are tunnel vision.
Your posts have an obsession with trying to make posters feel less important than yourself.
What have we learned in 16 years nothing [apart from the prime suspects for abduction].. results in zero.
Maddie disappeared 16 years a go...no one can prove what happened or who was responsible it seems.
IMO the only way of solving this is for fresh eyes to look at it from the begining....not half way through.
In
The Germans say they do know and have evidence to show Maddie was murdered.
Amaral and those who believe Maddie died in the apartment think they know what happened but we know they don't have the evidence to prove it...they think they do...but they are wrong
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In
The Germans say they do know and have evidence to show Maddie was murdered.
Amaral and those who believe Maddie died in the apartment think they know what happened but we know they don't have the evidence to prove it...they think they do...but they are wrong
But what if Wolters proves Maddie was murdered in the apartment?
That would mean Maddie would have died in the apartment. So Amaral would have been right.
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In
The Germans say they do know and have evidence to show Maddie was murdered.
Amaral and those who believe Maddie died in the apartment think they know what happened but we know they don't have the evidence to prove it...they think they do...but they are wrong
Amaral has in fact made the whole thing so much worse. What I want to know is Why.
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But what if Wolters proves Maddie was murdered in the apartment?
That would mean Maddie would have died in the apartment. So Amaral would have been right.
An interesting idea.
It would also mean the McCann was completely wrong over Madeleine not coming to any harm.
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An interesting idea.
It would also mean the McCann was completely wrong over Madeleine not coming to any harm.
Oh dear, more twisting of the facts. The McCanns have never EVER stated that Madeleine has come to no harm, only that there is no evidence that she has come to harm. Perhaps the difference is too subtle for you to grasp, or perhaps it simply suits you to propagandise to fit your agenda.
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Also how does Madeleine being murdered by a paedophile in the apartment vindicate Amaral and his batty thesis? *%87
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Also how does Madeleine being murdered by a paedophile in the apartment vindicate Amaral and his batty thesis? *%87
It's simple enough. Maddie gets murdered in the apartment, so, dies in the apartment & that means Amaral was right that she was dead. Ok, he got the perpetrator wrong, but he was still right about her being dead in the apartment. Can't win them all. But this is all libellous supposition anyway & I may have to report myself, because Brueckner MUST be presumed innocent, that is The Law, & that means he just didn't do it.
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In
The Germans say they do know and have evidence to show Maddie was murdered.
Amaral and those who believe Maddie died in the apartment think they know what happened but we know they don't have the evidence to prove it...they think they do...but they are wrong
Amaral and those who believe Maddie died in the apartment think they know what happened
Why is GA such a thorn in your side...why do your posts continually bring him up. [and others]
It seems he is a massive threat to your beliefs ....why.
You think HCW has it all in hand ....so why do you feel you have to constantly slag off GA.
You say GA hasn't the evidence to prove it ...but no one has proved him wrong.
Looks like the same thing is going to happen with your man...........as was predicted from day one.
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Amaral and those who believe Maddie died in the apartment think they know what happened
Why is GA such a thorn in your side...why do your posts continually bring him up. [and others]
It seems he is a massive threat to your beliefs ....why.
You think HCW has it all in hand ....so why do you feel you have to constantly slag off GA.
You say GA hasn't the evidence to prove it ...but no one has proved him wrong.
Looks like the same thing is going to happen with your man...........as was predicted from day one.
Why do you and others constantly feel the need to slag off HCW? It seems he is a massive threat to your beliefs… has he been proved wrong?
Amaral has been proven to be a liar, HCW has not. There’s one difference for you.
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Why do you and others constantly feel the need to slag off HCW? It seems he is a massive threat to your beliefs… has he been proved wrong?
Amaral has been proven to be a liar, HCW has not. There’s one difference for you.
Amaral has been proven to be a liar, HCW has not.
Time will tell on that one.
Think you are a bit naive to think coppers/prosecutors don't lie....thought you had more about you than that.
What prompts it
It’s fairly common for officers to lie in police reports, said Philip Stinson, a criminologist and professor of criminal justice at Bowling Green State University.
Stinson has tracked arrest cases of nonfederal sworn law enforcement officers who have been charged with at least one crime from 2005 to 2014. His research shows that out of more than 10,000 officer arrest cases, about 6.3% involved false reports or statements. About a quarter of those cases involving false reports or statements also involved alleged acts of police violence – and he said the problem is probably more common than the data suggests.
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Amaral and those who believe Maddie died in the apartment think they know what happened
Why is GA such a thorn in your side...why do your posts continually bring him up. [and others]
It seems he is a massive threat to your beliefs ....why.
You think HCW has it all in hand ....so why do you feel you have to constantly slag off GA.
You say GA hasn't the evidence to prove it ...but no one has proved him wrong.
Looks like the same thing is going to happen with your man...........as was predicted from day one.
It is proven that the evidence Amaral used to support his thesis is wrong...
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It is proven that the evidence Amaral used to support his thesis is wrong...
Well that's not entirely true. The ECHR have recently confirmed that the dog alerted to cadaver odour. It's a proven fact now.
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Well that's not entirely true. The ECHR have recently confirmed that the dog alerted to cadaver odour. It's a proven fact now.
No it isn't.
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No it isn't.
Because you don't believe it?
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Because you don't believe it?
Show me a Cite where The ECHR confirms that the Dogs alerted to Cadaver Odour.
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Because you don't believe it?
I think Grime should be ashamed of himself.
In Jersey an official enquiry found he took the investigation in the wrong direction so it's no stretch of the imagination to think the same thing happened in Luz
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Amaral has been proven to be a liar, HCW has not.
Time will tell on that one.
Think you are a bit naive to think coppers/prosecutors don't lie....thought you had more about you than that.
What prompts it
It’s fairly common for officers to lie in police reports, said Philip Stinson, a criminologist and professor of criminal justice at Bowling Green State University.
Stinson has tracked arrest cases of nonfederal sworn law enforcement officers who have been charged with at least one crime from 2005 to 2014. His research shows that out of more than 10,000 officer arrest cases, about 6.3% involved false reports or statements. About a quarter of those cases involving false reports or statements also involved alleged acts of police violence – and he said the problem is probably more common than the data suggests.
It’s nothing to do with naivity, it’s a factual statement.
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Because you don't believe it?
Eleanor is correct to say that the dog alerts are not proven to have been to cadaver, it’s got nothing to do with belief (though presumably you and the troll believe that they did and that it has been proven but only because you both live in an alternative reality @)(++(* )
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No Cite from The ECHR then.
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I don't remember if the ECHR even mentioned or considered dogs, but one thing is certain, the dogs sure do cause angst for supporters.
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I don't remember if the ECHR even mentioned or considered dogs, but one thing is certain, the dogs sure do cause angst for supporters.
You are deluded. There is no angst, only incredulity that sceptics still place any faith in the dog alerts.
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You are deluded. There is no angst, only incredulity that sceptics still place any faith in the dog alerts.
Any who subscribe to the notion that Calpol is a sedative will believe anything.
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You are deluded. There is no angst, only incredulity that sceptics still place any faith in the dog alerts.
It's quite strange considering the herculean efforts McCann supporters have made trying to convince the world that cadaver dogs, particularly those trained and used by Martin Grime, are unreliable.
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It's quite strange considering the herculean efforts McCann supporters have made trying to convince the world that cadaver dogs, particularly those trained and used by Martin Grime, are unreliable.
What? More strange than the even more hurculean efforts made by sceptics to convince the world that the McCanns dunnit? Get a grip. You actually believe that the dog alerts were proven to be to cadaver don’t you?
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It's quite strange considering the herculean efforts McCann supporters have made trying to convince the world that cadaver dogs, particularly those trained and used by Martin Grime, are unreliable.
There was no great effort required. Without Forensics there is nothing.
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It's quite strange considering the herculean efforts McCann supporters have made trying to convince the world that cadaver dogs, particularly those trained and used by Martin Grime, are unreliable.
Doesn't take any effort...grime has admitted his cadaver dogs are unreliable but you can't accept the truth
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What's more astonishing is the way some have been taken in by Grime try
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You only have to comment and there's an astonishing rush by the supporters to repeat their points of view. They are sooo obsessed by the subject, poor things.
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You only have to comment and there's an astonishing rush by the supporters to repeat their points of view. They are sooo obsessed by the subject, poor things.
Lol...you don't have a reply...grime has admitted his cadaver dogs were unreliable
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Meanwhile, The Sceptics continue to repeat their libellous comments.
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You only have to comment and there's an astonishing rush by the supporters to repeat their points of view. They are sooo obsessed by the subject, poor things.
Provocative, goading, ill-becoming of a moderator, tsk. You also made an unsubstantiated claim yesterday that the ECHR stated that the dogs alerted to cadaver as a proven fact, care to provide a cite?
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Provocative, goading, ill-becoming of a moderator, tsk. You also made an unsubstantiated claim yesterday that the ECHR stated that the dogs alerted to cadaver as a proven fact, care to provide a cite?
Once again you choose to accuse me of saying something I never said, so no cite will be forthcoming from me.
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Meanwhile, The Sceptics continue to repeat their libellous comments.
It isn't libellous to say you believe the McCanns guilty, because there is evidence against them. Martin Smith believed he saw Gerry, carrying his inert daughter away from the scene. That is evidence. From that evidence one is at liberty to deduce that Madeleine was dead & the McCanns staged an abduction. No need for dogs.
Anyway, how's the case against the abductor going? Having much luck are they? No? Well, I may have just explained the reason for that.
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Lol...you don't have a reply...grime has admitted his cadaver dogs were unreliable
That may be so. But how can we be certain Maddie didn't die in the apartment?
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No it isn't.
I know. But there's nothing to talk about. Not much happening in the case against the murderer. But maybe next year.
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Why do you and others constantly feel the need to slag off HCW? It seems he is a massive threat to your beliefs… has he been proved wrong?
Amaral has been proven to be a liar, HCW has not. There’s one difference for you.
Amaral has been proven to be a liar, HCW has not.
Well, we all know what HCW truth is ......but is it the truth.
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It is proven that the evidence Amaral used to support his thesis is wrong...
Well, you are still waiting to see what HCW evidence is...or if he has any at all.
GA was there from day one.....it seems HCW is relying on hearsay.
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Lol...you don't have a reply...grime has admitted his cadaver dogs were unreliable
Wasnt it gmcc who said the dogs were unreliable?
Still, the fact remains it seems the dogs did not react to anything or anyone else possessions apartment/car etc.
11:13am Mar 18, 2019
According to a Portuguese police report, Eddie and Keela alerted a total of 13 times, including inside the McCann holiday apartment; a rental car they had hired three weeks after Maddie disappeared; and some personal items belonging to the family.
In later television interviews, Gerry McCann questioned the reliability of cadaver dogs. The McCanns have strenuously denied any involvement in the disappearance of their daughter.
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Amaral has been proven to be a liar, HCW has not.
Well, we all know what HCW truth is ......but is it the truth.
It isn't the truth, because Brueckner MUST be presumed innocent, as innocent as the McCanns are, &, if the presumption of innocence means the McCanns just didn't do it, then the same applies to Brueckner. Therefore Wolters is a liar.
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Wasnt it gmcc who said the dogs were unreliable?
Still, the fact remains it seems the dogs did not react to anything or anyone else possessions apartment/car etc.
11:13am Mar 18, 2019
According to a Portuguese police report, Eddie and Keela alerted a total of 13 times, including inside the McCann holiday apartment; a rental car they had hired three weeks after Maddie disappeared; and some personal items belonging to the family.
In later television interviews, Gerry McCann questioned the reliability of cadaver dogs. The McCanns have strenuously denied any involvement in the disappearance of their daughter.
Martin Grime has admitted neither of his cadaver dogs was reliable...it's in his white paper. ..meaning GM was correct
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Once again you choose to accuse me of saying something I never said, so no cite will be forthcoming from me.
My apologies, it was the troll - easy to get you two mixed up especially considering you appeared to be supporting his lie in your next post.
Troll: Well that's not entirely true. The ECHR have recently confirmed that the dog alerted to cadaver odour. It's a proven fact now.
Eleanor: No it isn't.
G-Unit: because you don't believe it?
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My apologies, it was the troll - easy to get you two mixed up especially considering you appeared to be supporting his lie in your next post.
Troll: Well that's not entirely true. The ECHR have recently confirmed that the dog alerted to cadaver odour. It's a proven fact now.
Eleanor: No it isn't.
G-Unit: because you don't believe it?
They never learn, do they. Thank God they aren't my side.
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They never learn, do they. Thank God they aren't my side.
An honest debater would have agreed with you when you replied to the troll with "no it isn't", not made out that it was a matter of belief instead of a matter of fact.
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An honest debater would have agreed with you when you replied to the troll with "no it isn't", not made out that it was a matter of belief instead of a matter of fact.
What else can anyone conclude when faced with such off the cuff comments? No justification or explanation is offered for making it, so it can't be assumed that there's a reasonable basis for the comment.
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What else can anyone conclude when faced with such off the cuff comments? No justification or explanation is offered for making it, so it can't be assumed that there's a reasonable basis for the comment.
No explanation was necessary. Everyone knows that it isn't true. Even Spammybot himself.
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What else can anyone conclude when faced with such off the cuff comments? No justification or explanation is offered for making it, so it can't be assumed that there's a reasonable basis for the comment.
I conclude from your comments that you believe that Eleanor is wrong when she contradicted the troll's claim that the ECHR stated the dogs alerted to cadaver as a proven fact. It's not possible to prove a negative but it is possible to prove a claim so if you believe the troll's claim to be correct then prove it.
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No explanation was necessary. Everyone knows that it isn't true. Even Spammybot himself.
Not G-Unit though, she would prefer to dispute it, it would seem.
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I conclude from your comments that you believe that Eleanor is wrong when she contradicted the troll's claim that the ECHR stated the dogs alerted to cadaver as a proven fact. It's not possible to prove a negative but it is possible to prove a claim so if you believe the troll's claim to be correct then prove it.
If someone thinks the ECHR judges did not state that it was a proven fact that the dogs alerted to cadaver odour there are options. A link to the judgement, highlighting what they did say, and so on. Throwaway comments tell us nothing except what that person believes.
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If someone thinks the ECHR judges did not state that it was a proven fact that the dogs alerted to cadaver odour there are options. A link to the judgement, highlighting what they did say, and so on. Throwaway comments tell us nothing except what that person believes.
The onus is on the person who claimed they did..you should know that. How can you provide a link to something that doesn't exist..think about it
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The onus is on the person who claimed they did..you should know that. How can you provide a link to something that doesn't exist..think about it
My point precisely. But Gunit prefers to try to make me look stupid by changing The Rules to suit herself.
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It isn't libellous to say you believe the McCanns guilty, because there is evidence against them. Martin Smith believed he saw Gerry, carrying his inert daughter away from the scene. That is evidence. From that evidence one is at liberty to deduce that Madeleine was dead & the McCanns staged an abduction. No need for dogs.
Anyway, how's the case against the abductor going? Having much luck are they? No? Well, I may have just explained the reason for that.
He reluctantly said around four months later, based on Gerry McCann walking down aeroplane landing steps that he thought it was Gerry based purely on a walk. The street he said he thought it could be him was not at a downward length. Their was no pressing of features, but foreign person. No nothing the Irishman based it purely on a walk and nothing else lol. He then said his daughter called the next morning to explain what happened. He must of saw Gerry multiple times on TV. But one night based on walking down an aircraft carrier. Come on.
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He reluctantly said around four months later, based on Gerry McCann walking down aeroplane landing steps that he thought it was Gerry based purely on a walk. The street he said he thought it could be him was not at a downward length. Their was no pressing of features, but foreign person. No nothing the Irishman based it purely on a walk and nothing else lol. He then said his daughter called the next morning to explain what happened. He must of saw Gerry multiple times on TV. But one night based on walking down an aircraft carrier. Come on.
Well when, in two days time, the police find nothing but discarded coke cans & shopping trollies in the reservoir, & nothing at all connected to Madeleine's disappearance, I may have just explained the reason for that.
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Well when, in two days time, the police find nothing but discarded coke cans & shopping trollies in the reservoir, & nothing at all connected to Madeleine's disappearance, I may have just explained the reason for that.
.
But not justifying Marty boy Smith's extravagant statement.
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I wonder why the completely useless PJ never thought to search the local tip seeing as how it's so blatantly obvious that Martin Smith saw Gerry taking his daughter's body to put in a bin? Hmm....perhaps the total sum of their brain power simply doesn't add up to the one magnificent troll brain we have on here currently advising us what happened.
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I wonder why the completely useless PJ never thought to search the local tip seeing as how it's so blatantly obvious that Martin Smith saw Gerry taking his daughter's body to put in a bin? Hmm....perhaps the total sum of their brain power simply doesn't add up to the one magnificent troll brain we have on here currently advising us what happened.
I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how my theory is logistically impossible. I'm told it is but no one has ever elaborated further.
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Of course he does. Remember this is the man who also believed McCann would win the ECHR case
The man who is never wrong - in his own mind
Do you really want to go off topic...I didn't realise what a poor lawyer the McCanns had
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Do you really want to go off topic...I didn't realise what a poor lawyer the McCanns had
Is it off topic? Quite a few people learned that their opinions about Amaral's book were wrong.
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Is it off topic? Quite a few people learned that their opinions about Amaral's book were wrong.
My opinion hasn't changed...the McCanns had poor legal advice. No one has been able to explain why the alerts were considered proven facts. You think you have but you havent
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From today’s Times. Seems the residents of PdL have learned to develop some compassion in the last 16 years
Praia da Luz has ‘moved on’ from Madeleine McCann disappearance
May 04 2023, 6.00pm
Like the golden beach that is swept of debris twice a day by the Atlantic, the resort’s walls and notice boards have been cleansed of posters appealing for information about Madeleine McCann and the yellow ribbons promoting the search for the missing British girl.
Christian Wolters, a prosecutor in the German investigation into Christian Brueckner, said to “not expect anything spectacular” as a result of the reservoir searches.
The open anger against the McCann family for associating the resort with child abduction is softening to pity as its tourism industry booms. Teretinha Oliveriea, 51, who runs a jewellers in the heart of Praia da Luz, put her head in her hands in exasperation and groaned when “Madeleine” was mentioned. “We are trying to forget, not talking about her again,” she said. “I have a daughter of the same age as Madeleine, she will be 20 in August, so it was a period that was very sad. I saw everything that happened, the hundreds of journalists, the [McCann] family, the police. We don’t want that again. I don’t know what happened, this is a safe place. We are very sorry for her parents but we have moved on.”
At the Ocean Club where the McCanns were staying in May 2007 the only memorial is a metal grill over the window of the bedroom from where Madeleine was abducted. The bougainvillea is again in full bloom as it was the night she disappeared days before her fourth birthday.
Madeleine was three when she went missing in 2007
Madeleine was three when she went missing in 2007
PA
The club’s tennis courts where Madeleine played have become padel courts for the squash-tennis hybrid sport, signifying changes in the town’s population.
In 2007 about 80 per cent of the expats were British. Their numbers have waned, partly because of Brexit reducing the amount of time they can live in Portugal, but also because of increasing numbers from Germany, France, the Netherlands and Scandinavia lured by generous tax breaks.
Annettee Stupp, 47, originally from Essen in western Germany, sells jewellery from a little stall on the promenade. She lives a “van life” moving around in the Algarve in a camper van. “I don’t know about Madeleine,” she said. “No one has told me. It seems like a very safe area.”
Many of the new residents and visitors have no knowledge of the abduction or the prime suspect, Brueckner, 45. The German convicted sex-offender was a “van lifer” who also lived in a farmhouse on the outskirts of Praia da Luz when Madeleine disappeared.
The posters from the search campaign that covered notice boards back in 2008 are gone
The posters from the search campaign that covered notice boards back in 2008 are gone
CHRIS RADBURN/PA
A few yards from Stupp’s stall is the doorway to the dingy late-night bar known as Carlos’s. It became the headquarters for the hundreds of writers, international television correspondents, camera crews, producers and photographers from across the world. They gathered there each evening to discuss theories about the mystery of Madeleine’s disappearance having returned reports of sightings of the missing girl and possible suspects across Portugal, Spain and into north Africa. Carlos’s transformation into a smart restaurant called Boaty’s with a roof terrace overlooking the beach is a symbol of the economic transformation for the resort.
The fall in tourism numbers following Madeleine’s disappearance was followed by the international financial crisis which devastated the Portuguese economy and then the disastrous impact of Covid-19 restrictions. There was intense antagonism towards the McCanns for their perceived neglect in preventing their daughter’s abduction. As property prices boom, hotel reservations fill up and the bars and restaurants prepare for a busy summer, the mood is more compassionate.
Three days after Madeleine disappeared, her parents, Kate and Gerry McCann, both now 54, of Rothley, Leicestershire, left their holiday apartment to attend a Mother’s Day service at the resort’s 16th-century church. The building became a sanctuary for the couple, particularly Kate who regularly attended services.
Chris Wells, the church warden, said: “We certainly keep Madeleine and her parents in our prayers. But we don’t want to be the church that is associated with Madeleine McCann. Very few of the congregation were here at the time. The village was very badly hit by events and there was a very anti-McCann feeling. Now the German is a suspect, I think most people accept that the parents were not involved.”
Madeleine’s parents Gerry and Kate McCann
Madeleine’s parents Gerry and Kate McCann
PAUL ROGERS FOR THE TIMES
Andy Syers, 66, a retired teacher from Wetherby, West Yorkshire, lives in Praia da Luz for parts of the year. Three of her grandchildren are visiting this week, with the eldest arriving during the school half term next week.
“We have been coming here for 27 years. It’s an idyllic place, and safe,” she said. “Sometimes we talk about [Madeleine], just the puzzle and the terrible tragedy. Everyone feels for the parents because it is the worst thing to have happened to your children.”
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Is it off topic? Quite a few people learned that their opinions about Amaral's book were wrong.
My opinion of Amaral’s book is not wrong thanks. It’s full of half-truths, inaccuracies and conjecture and makes unevidenced claims about what happened to Madeleine McCann which if the case had been tried in the UK would almost certainly have been found to be defamatory.
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From today’s Times. Seems the residents of PdL have learned to develop some compassion in the last 16 years
Praia da Luz has ‘moved on’ from Madeleine McCann disappearance
May 04 2023, 6.00pm
Like the golden beach that is swept of debris twice a day by the Atlantic, the resort’s walls and notice boards have been cleansed of posters appealing for information about Madeleine McCann and the yellow ribbons promoting the search for the missing British girl.
Christian Wolters, a prosecutor in the German investigation into Christian Brueckner, said to “not expect anything spectacular” as a result of the reservoir searches.
The open anger against the McCann family for associating the resort with child abduction is softening to pity as its tourism industry booms. Teretinha Oliveriea, 51, who runs a jewellers in the heart of Praia da Luz, put her head in her hands in exasperation and groaned when “Madeleine” was mentioned. “We are trying to forget, not talking about her again,” she said. “I have a daughter of the same age as Madeleine, she will be 20 in August, so it was a period that was very sad. I saw everything that happened, the hundreds of journalists, the [McCann] family, the police. We don’t want that again. I don’t know what happened, this is a safe place. We are very sorry for her parents but we have moved on.”
At the Ocean Club where the McCanns were staying in May 2007 the only memorial is a metal grill over the window of the bedroom from where Madeleine was abducted. The bougainvillea is again in full bloom as it was the night she disappeared days before her fourth birthday.
Madeleine was three when she went missing in 2007
Madeleine was three when she went missing in 2007
PA
The club’s tennis courts where Madeleine played have become padel courts for the squash-tennis hybrid sport, signifying changes in the town’s population.
In 2007 about 80 per cent of the expats were British. Their numbers have waned, partly because of Brexit reducing the amount of time they can live in Portugal, but also because of increasing numbers from Germany, France, the Netherlands and Scandinavia lured by generous tax breaks.
Annettee Stupp, 47, originally from Essen in western Germany, sells jewellery from a little stall on the promenade. She lives a “van life” moving around in the Algarve in a camper van. “I don’t know about Madeleine,” she said. “No one has told me. It seems like a very safe area.”
Many of the new residents and visitors have no knowledge of the abduction or the prime suspect, Brueckner, 45. The German convicted sex-offender was a “van lifer” who also lived in a farmhouse on the outskirts of Praia da Luz when Madeleine disappeared.
The posters from the search campaign that covered notice boards back in 2008 are gone
The posters from the search campaign that covered notice boards back in 2008 are gone
CHRIS RADBURN/PA
A few yards from Stupp’s stall is the doorway to the dingy late-night bar known as Carlos’s. It became the headquarters for the hundreds of writers, international television correspondents, camera crews, producers and photographers from across the world. They gathered there each evening to discuss theories about the mystery of Madeleine’s disappearance having returned reports of sightings of the missing girl and possible suspects across Portugal, Spain and into north Africa. Carlos’s transformation into a smart restaurant called Boaty’s with a roof terrace overlooking the beach is a symbol of the economic transformation for the resort.
The fall in tourism numbers following Madeleine’s disappearance was followed by the international financial crisis which devastated the Portuguese economy and then the disastrous impact of Covid-19 restrictions. There was intense antagonism towards the McCanns for their perceived neglect in preventing their daughter’s abduction. As property prices boom, hotel reservations fill up and the bars and restaurants prepare for a busy summer, the mood is more compassionate.
Three days after Madeleine disappeared, her parents, Kate and Gerry McCann, both now 54, of Rothley, Leicestershire, left their holiday apartment to attend a Mother’s Day service at the resort’s 16th-century church. The building became a sanctuary for the couple, particularly Kate who regularly attended services.
Chris Wells, the church warden, said: “We certainly keep Madeleine and her parents in our prayers. But we don’t want to be the church that is associated with Madeleine McCann. Very few of the congregation were here at the time. The village was very badly hit by events and there was a very anti-McCann feeling. Now the German is a suspect, I think most people accept that the parents were not involved.”
Madeleine’s parents Gerry and Kate McCann
Madeleine’s parents Gerry and Kate McCann
PAUL ROGERS FOR THE TIMES
Andy Syers, 66, a retired teacher from Wetherby, West Yorkshire, lives in Praia da Luz for parts of the year. Three of her grandchildren are visiting this week, with the eldest arriving during the school half term next week.
“We have been coming here for 27 years. It’s an idyllic place, and safe,” she said. “Sometimes we talk about [Madeleine], just the puzzle and the terrible tragedy. Everyone feels for the parents because it is the worst thing to have happened to your children.”
“We have been coming here for 27 years. It’s an idyllic place, and safe,
I believe that to be the reason kmcc left twins in apartment to go to the tapas
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“We have been coming here for 27 years. It’s an idyllic place, and safe,
I believe that to be the reason kmcc left twins in apartment to go to the tapas
Exactly. Because it seemed like a safe place. Terrible crimes can happen in apparently safe places, but sometimes people get lulled into a false sense of security. Whoever says they haven’t is lying imo.
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Exactly. Because it seemed like a safe place. Terrible crimes can happen in apparently safe places, but sometimes people get lulled into a false sense of security. Whoever says they haven’t is lying imo.
get lulled into a false sense of security.
Yes, probably the reason they let the twins go back to the creche the next day.
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get lulled into a false sense of security.
Yes, probably the reason they let the twins go back to the creche the next day.
Are you suggesting the creche was not secure?
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get lulled into a false sense of security.
Yes, probably the reason they let the twins go back to the creche the next day.
I think one of the reasons for considering the twins might have had a more settled day could have been that they were attending interviews with the police in an effort to help find their daughter.
Takes all sorts, you seem to think that bringing children to hang around in the police station was a good choice. Many others would disagree and consider the stability of being entertained along with their peers V the doom and gloom of a police station with no facilities for children would be the better choice in the circumstances.
Me - I tend to go with the trained staff, their peer group and the creche facilities as the preferable option.
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My opinion of Amaral’s book is not wrong thanks. It’s full of half-truths, inaccuracies and conjecture and makes unevidenced claims about what happened to Madeleine McCann which if the case had been tried in the UK would almost certainly have been found to be defamatory.
Your opinion is up to you, it's your choice, and it doesn't matter at all. What matters are legal opinions and they are not the same as yours.
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Your opinion is up to you, it's your choice, and it doesn't matter at all. What matters are legal opinions and they are not the same as yours.
Some of them are the same, especially UK.
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Your opinion is up to you, it's your choice, and it doesn't matter at all. What matters are legal opinions and they are not the same as yours.
All except the legal conclusions and decision arrived at by the Portuguese Attorney General 2008. That really doesn't matter because some folk have a different OPINION.
Do please make the attempt to be consistent with your contradictory pontifications.
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Your opinion is up to you, it's your choice, and it doesn't matter at all. What matters are legal opinions and they are not the same as yours.
Perhaps you could provide a cite from a legal opinion you approve of which contradicts any of my opinions, thanks in advance. Also, are you of the view that ALL legal opinions are ALWAYS right? How dare you sit in judgement of my opinions of Amaral's book - you cannot prove my opinion is wrong, it is only your opinion that it is (though how you came to that decision is beyond me, frankly).
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I think one of the reasons for considering the twins might have had a more settled day could have been that they were attending interviews with the police in an effort to help find their daughter.
Takes all sorts, you seem to think that bringing children to hang around in the police station was a good choice. Many others would disagree and consider the stability of being entertained along with their peers V the doom and gloom of a police station with no facilities for children would be the better choice in the circumstances.
Me - I tend to go with the trained staff, their peer group and the creche facilities as the preferable option.
It was literally hours after the so-called abduction.
At that time it could have been anyone in that complex.
Your reasoning seems a bit weak.....unless of course, the mccs knew it was safe to leave them there.
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It was literally hours after the so-called abduction.
At that time it could have been anyone in that complex.
Your reasoning seems a bit weak.....unless of course, the mccs knew it was safe to leave them there.
Do forgive me for for pointing out how ridiculous your responding post is. It is bang ON Topic though since it illustrates you have learned exactly ZERO in sixteen years.
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It was literally hours after the so-called abduction.
At that time it could have been anyone in that complex.
Your reasoning seems a bit weak.....unless of course, the mccs knew it was safe to leave them there.
If the twins had been abducted from the creche the next day that would have really helped narrow it down to the few members of staff who were supposed to be looking after them at the time wouldn't it? *%87
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Do forgive me for for pointing out how ridiculous your responding post is. It is bang ON Topic though since it illustrates you have learned exactly ZERO in sixteen years.
have learned exactly ZERO in sixteen years.
That's because in reality .....neither has one else.
Plenty of so-called suspects ..then back to the drawing board
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If the twins had been abducted from the creche the next day that would have really helped narrow it down to the few members of staff who were supposed to be looking after them at the time wouldn't it? *%87
Well IMO it was always narrowed down ..then as it is now.
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have learned exactly ZERO in sixteen years.
That's because in reality .....neither has one else.
Plenty of so-called suspects ..then back to the drawing board
Some people never learn
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Some people never learn
Some people are just not capable. It isn't their fault. It is just the way they are and probably happier for being so. If you can call it happy.
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Well IMO it was always narrowed down ..then as it is now.
You must be utterly incredulous and constantly bemused that those in authority and who have access to ALL the relevant information don't share your (less than informed) opinion. Never mind, one day I hope you get over it.
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Some people are just not capable. It isn't their fault. It is just the way they are and probably happier for being so. If you can call it happy.
Ignorance can be cured but stupidity can't and I have learned over the years which one is which 🙄
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Some people never learn
"Some people never learn"
What is it people other than yourself have not learned exactly?
A German guy was in PDL same time as Maddie's disappearance. erm so was Kate N Gerry.
Has anyone learned if Maddie was abducted from the apartment or from the street? I hope the perpetrator is found and he answers this question...
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"Some people never learn"
What is it people other than yourself have not learned exactly?
A German guy was in PDL same time as Maddie's disappearance. erm so was Kate N Gerry.
Has anyone learned if Maddie was abducted from the apartment or from the street? I hope the perpetrator is found and he answers this question...
I have learned there is a section of society which unashamedly roots for a convicted paedophile and rapist who is prime suspect in a child murder. Took me a while to work that one out.
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I have learned there is a section of society which unashamedly roots for a convicted paedophile and rapist who is prime suspect in a child murder. Took me a while to work that one out.
Oh really. care to name and shames these horrible individuals. Probably them celebrity types who rooted for Jimmy the savage Saville?
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Ignorance can be cured but stupidity can't and I have learned over the years which one is which 🙄
Were you cured then .............
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Were you cured then .............
I wasn't ill. But do cast a quick glance over your signature line and wonder about it/
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have learned exactly ZERO in sixteen years.
That's because in reality .....neither has one else.
Plenty of so-called suspects ..then back to the drawing board
One of the many things I've learnt is..
You can't educate pork
Simple...to the point...and so very true
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I have learned there is a section of society which unashamedly roots for a convicted paedophile and rapist who is prime suspect in a child murder. Took me a while to work that one out.
Seems it taking you a while working a lot of things out.
What do you think you have evidence wise......nothing.
Abduction is still not proven.
You know full well no one is rooting for a convicted paedo...its just part of your spin.
CB is just a profile that HWC is trying to fit into .....what happened to Maddie.
It seems using Maddie for maximum publicity ...to help solve the 5 cases he is working on.
What exactly was he looking for at the reservoir...........surly you don't think it was pajamas
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Seems it taking you a while working a lot of things out.
What do you think you have evidence wise......nothing.
Abduction is still not proven.
You know full well no one is rooting for a convicted paedo...its just part of your spin.
CB is just a profile that HWC is trying to fit into .....what happened to Maddie.
It seems using Maddie for maximum publicity ...to help solve the 5 cases he is working on.
What exactly was he looking for at the reservoir...........surly you don't think it was pajamas
I never thought this case would be solved now I'm sure it will.
He doesn't need any publicity to solve the other 5 crimes...as they didn't for the DM rape. The rape the PJ couldn't solve but the BKA did. The rape that although tried in a court of of law..amaral and some sceptics falsely say never happened.
How insulting to the victim who was beaten and tortured by CB
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Seems it taking you a while working a lot of things out.
What do you think you have evidence wise......nothing.
Abduction is still not proven.
You know full well no one is rooting for a convicted paedo...its just part of your spin.
CB is just a profile that HWC is trying to fit into .....what happened to Maddie.
It seems using Maddie for maximum publicity ...to help solve the 5 cases he is working on.
What exactly was he looking for at the reservoir...........surly you don't think it was pajamas
What convinces you the BKA don't have the evidence they claim
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[quote author=Mr Gray link=topic=12497. (&^&...as they didn't for the DM rape. The rape the PJ couldn't solve but the BKA did. The rape that although tried in a court of of law..amaral and some sceptics falsely say never happened.
How insulting to the victim who was beaten and tortured by CB
[/quote]
Listen those crimes are horrendous .same as the thousands of other crimes that happen every day.
This is in case you have forgotten.is what happened to Maddie.
Not a CV project about HCW.
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What convinces you the BKA don't have the evidence they claim
Wasnt one of the things ...a bra strap
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[quote author=Mr Gray link=topic=12497. (&^&...as they didn't for the DM rape. The rape the PJ couldn't solve but the BKA did. The rape that although tried in a court of of law..amaral and some sceptics falsely say never happened.
How insulting to the victim who was beaten and tortured by CB
Listen those crimes are horrendous .same as the thousands of other crimes that happen every day.
This is in case you have forgotten.is what happened to Maddie.
Not a CV project about HCW.
If the PJ had locked CB up for the rape of DM ..Maddie may well still be alive
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Wasnt one of the things ...a bra strap
The BKA have never said a bra strap is their concrete evidence
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Seems it taking you a while working a lot of things out.
What do you think you have evidence wise......nothing.
Abduction is still not proven.
You know full well no one is rooting for a convicted paedo...its just part of your spin.
CB is just a profile that HWC is trying to fit into .....what happened to Maddie.
It seems using Maddie for maximum publicity ...to help solve the 5 cases he is working on.
What exactly was he looking for at the reservoir...........surly you don't think it was pajamas
No one knows what they were looking for specifically they haven’t said. Nor have they itemised what was found. Nor have they said whether or not anything of relevance was discovered to take this case forward. Until they reveal any of this information we are all in the dark. Until then you can imagine that the Germans have egg on their faces, that they have failed, that nothing was found, that it’s all a complete waste of time and resources designed to pursue some mysterious agends but remember all of this is still in your imagination. IMO “wait and see” before casting judgement is the best policy, though not a very popular one it would seem.
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I never thought this case would be solved now I'm sure it will.
He doesn't need any publicity to solve the other 5 crimes...as they didn't for the DM rape. The rape the PJ couldn't solve but the BKA did. The rape that although tried in a court of of law..amaral and some sceptics falsely say never happened.
How insulting to the victim who was beaten and tortured by CB
Yes, only thanks to Busching & the other crook. If they hadn't reported seeing the rape tape, then the BKA wouldn't have solved the DM case either. They'd have had no reason to even look at the case. Now, since Wolters hitched Brueckner to the Maddie case, other people, like Hazel B, have come forward. Brueckner is going down for at least 5 sex offences. Great. But they have b....r all to do with Madeleine's disappearance, as you'll discover, when Brueckner still hasn't been charged, in how ever many years time it takes you to realise.
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If the PJ had locked CB up for the rape of DM ..Maddie may well still be alive
ffs posts sense...........like
If the mccs hadn't left Maddie alone....never mind may she would have been alive.
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I wasn't ill. But do cast a quick glance over your signature line and wonder about it/
On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her
Should look at your signature stating there is evidence against CB .when in fact there isn't.
At least mine is the truth.
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ffs posts sense...........like
If the mccs hadn't left Maddie alone....never mind may she would have been alive.
I agree with you on leaving Maddie...does that surprise you..they were 100,% wrong
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The BKA have never said a bra strap is their concrete evidence
Do you think it was the shrine then.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12131383/Police-searched-reservoir-Maddie-McCann-case-British-couple-discovered-shrine-her.html
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ffs posts sense...........like
If the mccs hadn't left Maddie alone....never mind may she would have been alive.
The McCanns were wrong to leave Maddie..I agree
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ffs posts sense...........like
If the mccs hadn't left Maddie alone....never mind may she would have been alive.
Same goes for all children abducted, raped and murdered then, right? The parents are always to blame.
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If Madeleine was an actual target then she could have been taken in the middle of the night. But no doubt that would have been the fault of The McCanns somehow. Drunk or whatever, or how dare they go to sleep.
I remember one woman who said she slept on the floor outside the children's bedrooms every night, as one should of course.
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If Madeleine was an actual target then she could have been taken in the middle of the night. But no doubt that would have been the fault of The McCanns somehow. Drunk or whatever, or how dare they go to sleep.
I remember one woman who said she slept on the floor outside the children's bedrooms every night, as one should of course.
OUTSIDE the bedroom?! How neglectful.
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OUTSIDE the bedroom?! How neglectful.
Two Bedrooms. A Boy and a Girl. Which one to choose I wonder.
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Same goes for all children abducted, raped and murdered then, right? The parents are always to blame.
No, of course not. Not ALL parents are ALWAYS to blame. One has to judge each case separately. Undoubtedly though, there will be SOME cases where SOME blame can be apportioned to the parents. Like this one. Even though I don't believe Maddie was abducted anyway.
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Same goes for all children abducted, raped and murdered then, right? The parents are always to blame.
Not always but the biggest percentage is someone known to them ..family/friends etc
It seems as though the mccs never suspected friends .......for some reason
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Not always but the biggest percentage is someone known to them ..family/friends etc
It seems as though the mccs never suspected friends .......for some reason
Perhaps because they were sat with them all night.
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Not always but the biggest percentage is someone known to them ..family/friends etc
It seems as though the mccs never suspected friends .......for some reason
Although, some former friends did let police know of alleged inappropriate behavior witnessed while holidaying with the Mc's Before.
Nothing has been learned. still no evidence of abduction from apartment.
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Although, some former friends did let police know of alleged inappropriate behavior witnessed while holidaying with the Mc's Before.
Nothing has been learned. still no evidence of abduction from apartment.
a husband and wife who were both present but didn't actually agree on what did or didn't happen.
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a husband and wife who were both present but didn't actually agree on what did or didn't happen.
Its a rarity for husband and wife to agree over anything
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Its a rarity for husband and wife to agree over anything
This is not helpful when signing two differing witness statements.
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Ignorance can be cured but stupidity can't and I have learned over the years which one is which 🙄
Did this happen during therapy?
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a husband and wife who were both present but didn't actually agree on what did or didn't happen.
The husband said;
I do remember seeing David use his left index finger to rub his nipple, using circular movements, whilst he put his right index finger into his mouth, touching his tongue.
The wife said;
Dave was sucking on one of his fingers, pushing it in and out of his mouth, whilst with the other hand he circled his nipple, with a circulating movement over his clothes.
Sounds like agreement to me.
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The husband said;
I do remember seeing David use his left index finger to rub his nipple, using circular movements, whilst he put his right index finger into his mouth, touching his tongue.
The wife said;
Dave was sucking on one of his fingers, pushing it in and out of his mouth, whilst with the other hand he circled his nipple, with a circulating movement over his clothes.
Sounds like agreement to me.
David Payne and Gerry McCann were discussing the sexual abuse of their daughters while the female witness was sitting between them and they were talking across her? Does this sound likely to you?
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David Payne and Gerry McCann were discussing the sexual abuse of their daughters while the female witness was sitting between them and they were talking across her? Does this sound likely to you?
What were they talking about then?
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The husband said;
I do remember seeing David use his left index finger to rub his nipple, using circular movements, whilst he put his right index finger into his mouth, touching his tongue.
The wife said;
Dave was sucking on one of his fingers, pushing it in and out of his mouth, whilst with the other hand he circled his nipple, with a circulating movement over his clothes.
Sounds like agreement to me.
They disagreed about its significance and about the character of DP as well you know
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The bit G-Unit chose to omit from Arul Gaspar’s statement
“I can say that Dave was a pleasant person.
I do not remember him having any unusual characteristics.
During the holidays Dave never behaved in an inappropriate manner with Madeleine or with any of the other children.
Dave was popular with the children and I took this to be because he was a close friend to the family.
I never distrusted Dave...”
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They disagreed about its significance and about the character of DP as well you know
Yes, Gunit does know. This is just gratuitous nastiness with no foundation.
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Yes, Gunit does know. This is just gratuitous nastiness with no foundation.
It’s typical propaganda spreading. The obsession with the Gaspar Statement continues. It must be incredibly puzzling to those obsessed by it why none of the professionals investigating Madeleine’s disappearance has ever been remotely interested in it.
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They disagreed about its significance and about the character of DP as well you know
Yes. They agreed on the facts but their opinions differed. Facts are objective, opinions are subjective.
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Yes. They agreed on the facts but their opinions differed. Facts are objective, opinions are subjective.
These so called facts tell us nothing wrt to what happened to Madeleine so that’s another fact for you to file.
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Still no explanation as for why two fathers would discuss the sexual abuse of their daughters with a female witness sitting between them at a holiday dinner table.
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There is such an absolute desperation for all the horrible misconceptions fabricated around this case that I have learned to trust in nothing printed about them on the internet.
Particularly anything produced from the stable of so called journalist Levy; which true to form only his nom-de-plume. At least he had the excuse for his perfidy of making a dishonest buck or two.
What motivates the others who have been looking for a paedophile since 2007 while following his lead, is one big mystery of this case.
Particularly when the prime suspect is
a) a resident at the time in Luz
b) a convicted paedophile
c) a convicted rapist
d) prime suspect of British police
e) prime suspect of Portuguese police
f) prime suspect of German police who have taken a step further and added for child murder
There is supporting evidence for all of this ~ all that is remaining is for the system to move along and test it in court.
The vile insinuations still being put forward about demonstrably innocent people while lending moral support to a monster certainly has been a part of my learning curve.
I didn't believe such arrant stupidity was possible - I know better now.
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There is such an absolute desperation for all the horrible misconceptions fabricated around this case that I have learned to trust in nothing printed about them on the internet.
Particularly anything produced from the stable of so called journalist Levy; which true to form only his nom-de-plume. At least he had the excuse for his perfidy of making a dishonest buck or two.
What motivates the others who have been looking for a paedophile since 2007 while following his lead, is one big mystery of this case.
Particularly when the prime suspect is
a) a resident at the time in Luz
b) a convicted paedophile
c) a convicted rapist
d) prime suspect of British police
e) prime suspect of Portuguese police
f) prime suspect of German police who have taken a step further and added for child murder
There is supporting evidence for all of this ~ all that is remaining is for the system to move along and test it in court.
The vile insinuations still being put forward about demonstrably innocent people while lending moral support to a monster certainly has been a part of my learning curve.
I didn't believe such arrant stupidity was possible - I know better now.
Well done. Can I assume that your scepticism extends to the online stories amanating from the newspapers?
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There is such an absolute desperation for all the horrible misconceptions fabricated around this case that I have learned to trust in nothing printed about them on the internet.
Particularly anything produced from the stable of so called journalist Levy; which true to form only his nom-de-plume. At least he had the excuse for his perfidy of making a dishonest buck or two.
What motivates the others who have been looking for a paedophile since 2007 while following his lead, is one big mystery of this case.
Particularly when the prime suspect is
a) a resident at the time in Luz
b) a convicted paedophile
c) a convicted rapist
d) prime suspect of British police
e) prime suspect of Portuguese police
f) prime suspect of German police who have taken a step further and added for child murder
There is supporting evidence for all of this ~ all that is remaining is for the system to move along and test it in court.
The vile insinuations still being put forward about demonstrably innocent people while lending moral support to a monster certainly has been a part of my learning curve.
I didn't believe such arrant stupidity was possible - I know better now.
The case against The New Prime Suspect, won't be getting tested in court, anytime in the foreseeable future. He hasn't even been charged, so it isn't a matter of the court system 'moving along'. The case isn't at that stage & never will be. I did try telling you this 3 years ago, & here we are 3 years later. Still no charges for Brueckner. So my question to the forum is this...
How many more years before supporters realise Wolters never really had anything?
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It's interesting that Brietta says the McCanns are 'demonstrably innocent', considering the AG determined that they lost the opportunity to prove their innocence. So my question to the forum is this...
What demonstrates the McCanns innocence?
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Well done. Can I assume that your scepticism extends to the online stories amanating from the newspapers?
It certainly doesn't extend as far as the hot air from Wolters mouth.
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Nice moderating there.
I gather we are allowed to say the McCanns are demonstrably innocent, but what we're not allowed to do is ask what exactly demonstrates this innocence. @)(++(*
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I am not sure how I feel beyond the fact that there are some horrible people alive and breathing spite all over everything. I think I probably feel sorry for them. At least I hope so.
But I have also improved my English Language Skills and my ability to spot hogwash when I read it. Sceptics need to improve their Hogwash Skills. Although The McCanns will never be indicted for anything. Bottom Line, Folks, but do keep on trying. It is often amusing.
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I am not sure how I feel beyond the fact that there are some horrible people alive and breathing spite all over everything. I think I probably feel sorry for them. At least I hope so.
But I have also improved my English Language Skills and my ability to spot hogwash when I read it. Sceptics need to improve their Hogwash Skills. Although The McCanns will never be indicted for anything. Bottom Line, Folks, but do keep on trying. It is often amusing.
Why is it so important to you that no one questions the innocence of the McCanns?
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It is a Fact of Law that no one has to prove their Innocence. We all should have learned that in the last 16 Years.
If we could cut the garbage on this one then it will make my life easier.
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It is a Fact of Law that no one has to prove their Innocence. We all should have learned that in the last 16 Years.
If we could cut the garbage on this one then it will make my life easier.
Indeed it is. But the McCanns still failed to prove their innocence. That's not me saying it. I'm just repeating that which the archiving despatch stated. If you have a problem with it, best take it up with the AG.
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There is such an absolute desperation for all the horrible misconceptions fabricated around this case that I have learned to trust in nothing printed about them on the internet.
Particularly anything produced from the stable of so called journalist Levy; which true to form only his nom-de-plume. At least he had the excuse for his perfidy of making a dishonest buck or two.
What motivates the others who have been looking for a paedophile since 2007 while following his lead, is one big mystery of this case.
Particularly when the prime suspect is
a) a resident at the time in Luz
b) a convicted paedophile
c) a convicted rapist
d) prime suspect of British police
e) prime suspect of Portuguese police
f) prime suspect of German police who have taken a step further and added for child murder
There is supporting evidence for all of this ~ all that is remaining is for the system to move along and test it in court.
The vile insinuations still being put forward about demonstrably innocent people while lending moral support to a monster certainly has been a part of my learning curve.
I didn't believe such arrant stupidity was possible - I know better now.
Funny how G-Unit appears to attach such great significance to the Gaspar statement but appears deeply sceptical of an established in a court of law rape conviction against a know thief and child molestor. And why? All because she thinks Gerry and Kate are a little bit shifty. Amazing leaps and twists of logic required there.
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Funny how G-Unit appears to attach such great significance to the Gaspar statement but appears deeply sceptical of an established in a court of law rape conviction against a know thief and child molestor. And why? All because she thinks Gerry and Kate are a little bit shifty. Amazing leaps and twists of logic required there.
Funny how Gunit places No significance on the other Gaspar statement.
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These so called facts tell us nothing wrt to what happened to Madeleine so that’s another fact for you to file.
File it along with the fact that this man making inappropriate gestures at the dining table is also the last supposedly independent witness that can confirm the missing child's wellbeing on the evening of May 3rd. Could there be a connection? According to Brietta, she can demonstrate that there isn't. Off you go Brietta, the floor is all yours.....
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Strange how they never suspected anyone but a so-called abductor... from the very beginning.
Why would they be so sure ... the first thing you would have thought is the people around you.imo
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File it along with the fact that this man making inappropriate gestures at the dining table is also the last supposedly independent witness that can confirm the missing child's wellbeing on the evening of May 3rd. Could there be a connection? According to Brietta, she can demonstrate that there isn't. Off you go Brietta, the floor is all yours.....
His visit to 5A was suggested and attested to by MM's father, who also suggested he had checked on the McCann children on the previous evening, although all the rest of the party were adamant that DP never took part in any checks on any evening.
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His visit to 5A was suggested and attested to by MM's father, who also suggested he had checked on the McCann children on the previous evening, although all the rest of the party were adamant that DP never took part in any checks on any evening.
Cite, Please.
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Like DP OTT statement in which he refers to calling in on Kate McCann on the evening of May3rd, 2007,
and he describes seeing 'the three children....in their pyjamas....you know they were just like ANGELS ...the night attire...WHITE was the predominant colour.'
According to Peter Hyatt's statement analysis: the words 'angels' and 'white' are an interesting choice of words.
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Like DP OTT statement in which he refers to calling in on Kate McCann on the evening of May3rd, 2007,
and he describes seeing 'the three children....in their pyjamas....you know they were just like ANGELS ...the night attire...WHITE was the predominant colour.'
According to Peter Hyatt's statement analysis: the words 'angels' and 'white' are an interesting choice of words.
Fascinating. Just how raving mad are these people? Don't say Angels and don't say White, otherwise you could be accused of a crime. Perhaps they all went to heaven, excepting that two of them obviously didn't.
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So kmc took a shower leaving the patio door ope and the children alone to their own devices ...yet
Kate - “At around six forty, as I was drying myself off, there was a knock on the patio doors and I heard David’s voice calling me. Swiftly wrapping my towel around me I stepped into the sitting room.”
Kate (book) - “David had popped his head round the patio doors looking for me,”
David Payne, rogatory interview:
I was you know going to Kate’s about six thirty, err and I went into their apartment through the patio doors. The three children were all you know dressed you know in their pyjamas, you know they looked immaculate, you know they were just like angels, they all looked so happy and well looked after and content and I said to Kate, you know it’s a bit early for the you know, for the three of them to be going to bed, she said ah they’ve had such a great time, they’re really tired and you know err so I say, you know I can’t remember exactly what, what you know the night attire, what the children were wearing but white was the predominant err colour, but you know just to reinforce they were just so happy, you know seeing you know obviously Gerry wasn’t there but they were just all, just so at peace and you know they looked like a family who’d had such a fantastic time etc.
He noticed all that in around 30 seconds.
Kate McCann, september statement:
While the children were eating and looking at some books, Kate had a shower which lasted around 5 minutes. After showering, at around 6:30/6:40PM and while she was getting dry, she heard somebody knocking at the verandah door. She wrapped herself in a towel and went to see who it was. This door was closed but not locked as Gerry had left by this door. She confirmed it was David Payne, because he called out and had opened the door slightly. David’s visit was to help her to take the children to the recreation area. When David returned from the beach he was with Gerry at the tennis courts, and it was Gerry who asked him to help Kate with taking the children to the recreation area, which had been arranged but did not take place. David was at the apartment for around 30 seconds, he didn’t actually enter the flat, he remained at the verandah door. According to her he then left for the tennis courts where Gerry was. The time was around 6:30-6:40PM.
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So kmc took a shower leaving the patio door ope and the children alone to their own devices ...yet
Kate - “At around six forty, as I was drying myself off, there was a knock on the patio doors and I heard David’s voice calling me. Swiftly wrapping my towel around me I stepped into the sitting room.”
Kate (book) - “David had popped his head round the patio doors looking for me,”
David Payne, rogatory interview:
I was you know going to Kate’s about six thirty, err and I went into their apartment through the patio doors. The three children were all you know dressed you know in their pyjamas, you know they looked immaculate, you know they were just like angels, they all looked so happy and well looked after and content and I said to Kate, you know it’s a bit early for the you know, for the three of them to be going to bed, she said ah they’ve had such a great time, they’re really tired and you know err so I say, you know I can’t remember exactly what, what you know the night attire, what the children were wearing but white was the predominant err colour, but you know just to reinforce they were just so happy, you know seeing you know obviously Gerry wasn’t there but they were just all, just so at peace and you know they looked like a family who’d had such a fantastic time etc.
He noticed all that in around 30 seconds.
Kate McCann, september statement:
While the children were eating and looking at some books, Kate had a shower which lasted around 5 minutes. After showering, at around 6:30/6:40PM and while she was getting dry, she heard somebody knocking at the verandah door. She wrapped herself in a towel and went to see who it was. This door was closed but not locked as Gerry had left by this door. She confirmed it was David Payne, because he called out and had opened the door slightly. David’s visit was to help her to take the children to the recreation area. When David returned from the beach he was with Gerry at the tennis courts, and it was Gerry who asked him to help Kate with taking the children to the recreation area, which had been arranged but did not take place. David was at the apartment for around 30 seconds, he didn’t actually enter the flat, he remained at the verandah door. According to her he then left for the tennis courts where Gerry was. The time was around 6:30-6:40PM.
Did any Legal Charges ever come of this? No? Why ever not?
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Cite, Please.
at 18H30, the time at which he saw DP next to the tennis court. DAVID went to visit KATE and the children and returned close to 19H00,
https://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
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His visit to 5A was suggested and attested to by MM's father, who also suggested he had checked on the McCann children on the previous evening, although all the rest of the party were adamant that DP never took part in any checks on any evening.
If DP is involved in Madeleine’s disappearance and the Gaspar statement is as relevant as you think it is then it follows you don’t believe for one minute that Madeleine died in an accident after the McCanns left fordinner that evening. Instead you would appear to believe something far darker and more depraved occurred. Right?
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If DP is involved in Madeleine’s disappearance and the Gaspar statement is as relevant as you think it is then it follows you don’t believe for one minute that Madeleine died in an accident after the McCanns left fordinner that evening. Instead you would appear to believe something far darker and more depraved occurred. Right?
Just how relevant does G unit think the Gasper statement is then?
I don't recall her mentioning it very often.
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at 18H30, the time at which he saw DP next to the tennis court. DAVID went to visit KATE and the children and returned close to 19H00,
https://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
Your posts really are quite a remarkable entity.
They say absolutely nothing. And they mean even less.
What they achieve is confirmation of precisely how little you have taken in and understood of what has been going on in the real world over the past few years. Your posts owe much to what was in vogue amongst sceptics circa 2007 ~ really quite tragic your failure to appreciate that absolutely everyone in the world except a chosen few, have moved on and don't live their lives immersed daily in negativity about someone else's.
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Your posts really are quite a remarkable entity.
They say absolutely nothing. And they mean even less.
What they achieve is confirmation of precisely how little you have taken in and understood of what has been going on in the real world over the past few years. Your posts owe much to what was in vogue amongst sceptics circa 2007 ~ really quite tragic your failure to appreciate that absolutely everyone in the world except a chosen few, have moved on and don't live their lives immersed daily in negativity about someone else's.
I wondered what that comment meant but decided that it had nothing to do with anything relevant.
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I wondered what that comment meant but decided that it had nothing to do with anything relevant.
G-Unit obviously thinks DP is in on it. I mean, look at the huge wealth of evidence against him compared to someone like CB (who is obviously innocent, even of the crimes he has been convicted of!)
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I wondered what that comment meant but decided that it had nothing to do with anything relevant.
The only known relevance to Madeleine's case is sitting in a German jail praying to the devil for his teams of expensive lawyers to get him out of jail on a technicality.
He is charged with five serious sexual crimes against women and children but no-one is interested at all in that.
It has been one of the most unedifying experiences of my life to watch sceptics vigorously throw in their lot in support of this abhorrent still technically innocent creature without waiting to see what the evidence is against him.
That is now part of my learning curve - sceptics are a million times worse than I ever thought possible.
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The only known relevance to Madeleine's case is sitting in a German jail praying to the devil for his teams of expensive lawyers to get him out of jail on a technicality.
He is charged with five serious sexual crimes against women and children but no-one is interested at all in that.
It has been one of the most unedifying experiences of my life to watch sceptics vigorously throw in their lot in support of this abhorrent still technically innocent creature without waiting to see what the evidence is against him.
That is now part of my learning curve - sceptics are a million times worse than I ever thought possible.
There's no need for us to 'wait & see' what the evidence against Brueckner is. We have long since established that Wolters doesn't really have anything.
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G-Unit obviously thinks DP is in on it. I mean, look at the huge wealth of evidence against him compared to someone like CB (who is obviously innocent, even of the crimes he has been convicted of!)
There's more evidence DP came into contact with Maddie, than Brueckner ever did.
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The only known relevance to Madeleine's case is sitting in a German jail praying to the devil for his teams of expensive lawyers to get him out of jail on a technicality.
He is charged with five serious sexual crimes against women and children but no-one is interested at all in that.
It has been one of the most unedifying experiences of my life to watch sceptics vigorously throw in their lot in support of this abhorrent still technically innocent creature without waiting to see what the evidence is against him.
That is now part of my learning curve - sceptics are a million times worse than I ever thought possible.
I did so hope that this wasn't the case, but after this last few days even I have to admit that you are right.
And all it took was two opposing statements.
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I did so hope that this wasn't the case, but after this last few days even I have to admit that you are right.
And all it took was two opposing statements.
But the statements didn't oppose each other. Both Gaspars witnessed the event.
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Just how relevant does G unit think the Gasper statement is then?
I don't recall her mentioning it very often.
I haven't because I don't attach a lot of importance to it. It's simply part of the whole. I mentioned ir now only because someone tried to assert that the two witnesses disagreed, and, when it came to the bare facts they didn't.
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I haven't because I don't attach a lot of importance to it. It's simply part of the whole. I mentioned ir now only because someone tried to assert that the two witnesses disagreed, and, when it came to the bare facts they didn't.
Bare Facts. Regardless of interpretation. Tell that to The Judge and Jury.
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Bare Facts. Regardless of interpretation. Tell that to The Judge and Jury.
You're quite right. Evidence can be open to interpretation. As a member of the jury in the court of public opinion, I don't interpret Martin Smiths sighting to be evidence of abduction.
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You're quite right. Evidence can be open to interpretation. As a member of the jury in the court of public opinion, I don't interpret Martin Smiths sighting to be evidence of abduction.
Me too. I also never thought that Jane Tanner's sighting was evidence of abduction.
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I haven't because I don't attach a lot of importance to it. It's simply part of the whole. I mentioned ir now only because someone tried to assert that the two witnesses disagreed, and, when it came to the bare facts they didn't.
I don't see the incident as important either. It merely confirms to me that David & Gerry have a close relationship & as such, that Payne's claim that Maddie was alive & well on the evening of May 3rd should be treated with scepticism. That & the fact that Kate & David gave differing accounts of their meeting. But anyway, that's all been dealt with now. The matter cleared up. Wolters has conducted a very serious investigation, that hasn't involved interviewing either the McCanns or Dr Payne.
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I don't see the incident as important either. It merely confirms to me that David & Gerry have a close relationship & as such, that Payne's claim that Maddie was alive & well on the evening of May 3rd should be treated with scepticism. That & the fact that Kate & David gave differing accounts of their meeting. But anyway, that's all been dealt with now. The matter cleared up. Wolters has conducted a very serious investigation, that hasn't involved interviewing either the McCanns or Dr Payne.
Very much like OG really.
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Very much like OG really.
And perfectly explicable to anyone with half a braincell.
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I haven't because I don't attach a lot of importance to it. It's simply part of the whole. I mentioned ir now only because someone tried to assert that the two witnesses disagreed, and, when it came to the bare facts they didn't.
they disagreed of its significance. If it had no significance then it had no relevance, don’t make out that the two witnesses were in agreement about DP and his actions because they werent. Was a time on this forum when we weren’t even allowed to reference those statements if I recall correctly , any idea why this has changed?
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Me too. I also never thought that Jane Tanner's sighting was evidence of abduction.
Why not? You think MS statement is evidence of parental involvement don’t you?
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they disagreed of its significance. If it had no significance then it had no relevance, don’t make out that the two witnesses were in agreement about DP and his actions because they werent. Was a time on this forum when we weren’t even allowed to reference those statements if I recall correctly , any idea why this has changed?
But they were in agreement. Both agreed that David made a particular gesture. It's open to interpretation & seeing as though it's recorded in evidence I really don't see the problem with discussing the matter.
Why would you rather we weren't allowed?
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And perfectly explicable to anyone with half a braincell.
Really? I find it rather strange that the BKA have definitive evidence Madeleine was murdered by Brueckner, but have neither shared it with the McCanns nor ever even interviewed them. There is no contact between the McCanns & Wolters. Can you conjure an excuse for why not?
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Why not? You think MS statement is evidence of parental involvement don’t you?
It can quite easily be interpreted as such, yes. It would account for all the inconsistencies, why the McCanns never promoted the Smith sighting & why the police still can't find the abductor after 16 years.
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But they were in agreement. Both agreed that David made a particular gesture. It's open to interpretation & seeing as though it's recorded in evidence I really don't see the problem with discussing the matter.
Why would you rather we weren't allowed?
Please observe forum rules particularly the one about libel.
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Please observe forum rules particularly the one about libel.
OK. No more discussion about Dr Payne & the Smith sighting. Let's get back to discussing the concrete evidence against Christian Brueckner. There's plenty to talk about there.
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Why not? You think MS statement is evidence of parental involvement don’t you?
Do I?
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Do I?
Question 1). is Martin Smith’s statement evidence in your view?
Question 2) If so what theory does his evidence tend to support in your view?
So, yes I would say you most certainly do, I’m amazed you would even attempt to deny it.
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Question 1). is Martin Smith’s statement evidence in your view?
Question 2) If so what theory does his evidence tend to support in your view?
So, yes I would say you most certainly do, I’m amazed you would even attempt to deny it.
Just carry on believing yourself then. You will anyway, no matter what I say because you're so clever, aren't you?
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Just carry on believing yourself then. You will anyway, no matter what I say because you're so clever, aren't you?
Why are you unable to answer the questions? Is Martin Smith’s statement evidence, and if so which theory does it support? It has nothing to do with me being clever, it’s just two very simple questions that for some inexplicable reason you can’t face up to.
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Why are you unable to answer the questions? Is Martin Smith’s statement evidence, and if so which theory does it support? It has nothing to do with me being clever, it’s just two very simple questions that for some inexplicable reason you can’t face up to.
Why does it matter to you, what G does or doesn't believe?
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Let’s try it another way. In the highly unlikely event that Gerry McCann ends up in the dock accused of hiding his daughter’s body would the Smith statement be heard as evidence in court, and if so would it be for the prosecution or the defence? I wonder if anyone can answer this question?
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Let’s try it another way. In the highly unlikely event that Gerry McCann ends up in the dock accused of hiding his daughter’s body would the Smith statement be heard as evidence in court, and if so would it be for the prosecution or the defence? I wonder if anyone can answer this question?
It is all down to corroboration.
My opinion is that none of it could be entered in evidence in the first instance - so the situation would never arise.
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A judge would have to decide what could or couldn't be entered into evidence. But the statute of limitations has expired anyway. The McCanns will never be charged with anything. But if I were Brueckner's attorney, I'd be calling Smith as a witness in his defence. But then it's not looking much like Brueckner will ever be charged either.
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Why do some people find it so hard to understand the difference between what is admissible and what isn't?
Most of the supposed evidence which is argued on this Board is inadmissible. This means that it isn't relevant or is too easy to refute.
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Well at least we appear to have established that Martin Smith's statement is not evidence of Gerry McCann's involvement in Madeleine's disappearance, let's hope we never have to discuss it again as clearly it is of no significance whatsoever... 8(>((
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Well at least we appear to have established that Martin Smith's statement is not evidence of Gerry McCann's involvement in Madeleine's disappearance, let's hope we never have to discuss it again as clearly it is of no significance whatsoever... 8(>((
Give it five. It will be back.
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Why do some people find it so hard to understand the difference between what is admissible and what isn't?
Most of the supposed evidence which is argued on this Board is inadmissible. This means that it isn't relevant or is too easy to refute.
You're the arbiter of admissibility now are You?
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Well at least we appear to have established that Martin Smith's statement is not evidence of Gerry McCann's involvement in Madeleine's disappearance, let's hope we never have to discuss it again as clearly it is of no significance whatsoever... 8(>((
Well. You might think so, but I disagree. Smith is a witness. The McCanns are witnesses. I don't see why the McCanns should be able to give evidence but Smith cannot.
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Give it five. It will be back.
It means that sceptics' suspicions are not based on any evidence per se, just on...what? The fact that they don't like the look of the McCanns?? The fact that Gerry said back door when he meant front door or that he was sat next to someone on holiday who made a rude gesture? And these suspicions are somehow more compelling than everything we know about the official suspect CB? It's truly laughable.
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It means that sceptics' suspicions are not based on any evidence per se, just on...what? The fact that they don't like the look of the McCanns?? The fact that Gerry said back door when he meant front door or that he was sat next to someone on holiday who made a rude gesture? And these suspicions are somehow more compelling than everything we know about the official suspect CB? It's truly laughable.
What evidence against Brueckner do you find compelling?
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That's the question for the day. I've made it quite clear what evidence convinces me the McCanns did it. Now let's balance things & make a list of all the compelling evidence that Madeleine was taken in a criminal act by Christian Brueckner.
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A judge would have to decide what could or couldn't be entered into evidence. But the statute of limitations has expired anyway. The McCanns will never be charged with anything. But if I were Brueckner's attorney, I'd be calling Smith as a witness in his defence. But then it's not looking much like Brueckner will ever be charged either.
It really would have been better if the parents had been tried in a court of law. At least if found not guilty they would not have this shroud of guilt hanging over them to this day.
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It really would have been better if the parents had been tried in a court of law. At least if found not guilty they would not have this shroud of guilt hanging over them to this day.
Insufficient evidence. It couldn't be established which crime , if any, had been committed. When Smith had his epiphany the McCanns were back home, & they weren't in any hurry to return to Portugal & have another chat with the police. Oh well. Things have moved on since then. The three expert investigative forces have found evidence which exonerates the McCanns & heavily implicates Christian Brueckner.
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It really would have been better if the parents had been tried in a court of law. At least if found not guilty they would not have this shroud of guilt hanging over them to this day.
LOL @"Shroud Of Guilt" - that is merely a figment of your imagination. And double LOL at your rationale that the dwindling number of people who are still convinced they are guilty (ie, you, G-Unit and the troll) would think any different if they HAD been found not guilty. Be honest now, fgs.
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Did any Legal Charges ever come of this? No? Why ever not?
There isnt enough evidence .......not no evidence.
Never say never.... [althought you didnt say never in your post]
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Let’s try it another way. In the highly unlikely event that Gerry McCann ends up in the dock accused of hiding his daughter’s body would the Smith statement be heard as evidence in court, and if so would it be for the prosecution or the defence? I wonder if anyone can answer this question?
Wonder why Jim Gamble suspected gmcc at first.............why he would come to that conclusion.
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Wonder why Jim Gamble suspected gmcc at first.............why he would come to that conclusion.
why don't you ask him? I believe he is quite approachable. Actually no need, he already gave his reason:
His initial suspicion was based on his experience as a cop, as “statistically it's likely to be the parents or somebody who's in close proximity with the child”.
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Insufficient evidence. It couldn't be established which crime , if any, had been committed. When Smith had his epiphany the McCanns were back home, & they weren't in any hurry to return to Portugal & have another chat with the police. Oh well. Things have moved on since then. The three expert investigative forces have found evidence which exonerates the McCanns & heavily implicates Christian Brueckner.
Righty-ho.
I’ll await further developments with baited breath.
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You're the arbiter of admissibility now are You?
well someone has to be...
So we all agree CB did it? that would be irrefutable evidence yes? no?