Portuguese judicial secrecy law and its impact on the Madeleine case.

[Benice]

I can see nothing in your cite that shows the McCanns knew about the Cipriano case.

Do you have a cite that the McCanns knew about the Cipriano case?  A cite or a 'no' would suffice.

Kate talks about the Cipriano case and Amarals's conviction in her book. Page 416.

As per Brietta's link  - the UK press reported on the allegations being made against Amaral re Leonora Cipriano in Oct 2007.   He was made an arguido on 4th May 2007.    The idea that such alarming public news would have escaped the attention of the McCanns and/or their family or friends  - or was not brought to their attention by others is totally unrealistic IMO. 
 

[sadie]

Kindly provide a cite for "the McCanns who were no doubt aware of the Cipriano case".

Well it was in the British newspapers the day after !! 

With thanks to Carana and John in the thread:   "Leonor Cipriano's ex Leandro Silva claims Joana was abducted or sold."
« on: February 09, 2014, 12:27:44 PM »
Posted on behalf of Carana.


Leonor Cipriano's former partner, Leandro Silva, claims Joana was abducted or sold.

These cops framed my wife.
8 September 2007

The Sun - By OLIVER HARVEY Chief Feature Writer

THE husband of a Portuguese woman jailed for the murder of her child spoke last night of his fears for Kate McCann.

Leandro Silva said his wife had been set up and he believed police would do the same thing to four-year-old Madeleine’s mother.

He said: “I am worried Kate will be framed for a crime she did not commit, the way it happened to my wife.”

Leandro also demanded that one of the detectives leading the Maddie investigation should be dropped from the case.

Detective Goncalo Amaral has been accused of being involved with beating Leandro’s wife, Leonor Cipriano, during her interrogation over the death of her daughter, Joana, nine.


[

Leandro Silva, former partner of Leonor Cipriano.

Speaking exclusively to The Sun, Leandro said: “Goncalo Amaral shouldn’t still be investigating the McCann case.

“I believe he will be proved to be a bad policeman and a bad operator.

“I don’t believe Kate and Gerry have anything to do with Madeleine’s disappearance.

“I just don’t believe they would do such a thing. After losing Joana I know the pain they are going through. It’s terrible.”

In news that shocked the world Kate McCann was yesterday declared an “arguida” ? Portuguese for suspect ? in the hunt for Maddie.

And the story of little Joana Cipriano has some chilling echoes of the British child’s disappearance.

Joana vanished on September 12, 2004, just seven miles from the spot where Madeleine went missing on May 3.

The innocent, brown-eyed youngster, her chestnut hair cut into a boyish crop, set off from home in the village of Figueira to collect groceries.

But she never returned. Like Maddie, it was as if Joana had disappeared off the face of the Earth.


www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/5sep7/SUN_08_09_2007.htm





Of course they knew about the Cipriano case, just 7 miles away in Figuiera, with a little girl lost/ abducted just two years 8 months before before .... and  The Sun Article the day after proved this was common knowledge.

What on earth are you thinking about SIL making such an ungrounded suggestion?

Perchance just disrupting Briettas discussion flow, trying to ruin her argument?

[stephen25000]

Can I remind posters not to get personal, or comments in that frame will be deleted.

[Alice Purjorick]

I don't think the system did work, Alice.  It didn't find Madeleine McCann and in my opinion the way in which the system was used was the main impediment to that. 

You posted there are three stages in Portuguese criminal proceedings ...

• Inquiry
• Bringing to Justice
• Trial

The first two steps you detailed in the investigation into Madeleine's disappearance began and ended with the parents; with the insidious leaks destroying their credibility starting with JOSE MANUEL OLIVEIRA Crime reporter, 'Diario de Noticias': a badly told story ... PEDRO TADEU, Editor, 24 Horas': displayed a cold and calculating attitude throughout this process ... JOSE BARRA da COSTA, Former Policia Judiciaria: this is a couple who practice 'swinging'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/panorama/7106086.stm

All of that was being fed into the public domain and consciousness at a time when the victims of it were gagged and unable to refute the lies being spread about them because the secrecy law did not allow them to speak about the investigation.

It was a very close run thing for the McCanns who were no doubt aware of the Cipriano case. 
In the event their story did not end as Leonor's did with a 'murderer' safely under lock and key with all three stages in proceedings completed.
Neither did it reach stage three of the process with any suspect going to trial.  Whether or not that could be put down entirely to the abuse of the penal laws by the investigation could never be determined ... but I don't think it could have helped.

Tellme how the system didn't work then.
The PP filed the case when it could not be determined whether or what crime had been committed. That's what the Portuguese law calls for.
Cipriano is irrelevant. She was/is a convicted murderess and for the record all the beating and so on wheresoever it took place would render anything she said under such duress as inadmissible as evidence in a Portuguese court.
Unless of course we are back to the "every man of the Portuguese Judiciary being as bent as a docker's hook". Tell that one to the marines the sailors will not believe it.

[John]

The Cipriano case always gets dragged out as some sort of vindication that all was not well with the Portuguese justice system.  Both Leonor Cipriano and her brother João certainly did have a case to answer, the sickening video made by the PJ showing João Cipriano reenacting the dreadful crime is certainly evidence of that.

We know that Leonor and João saw some rough treatment at the hands of the Portuguese police and that is to be condemned, had the McCanns been Portuguese we might well have seen this repeated. That said however, there is nothing the two cases have in common beyond the fact that two little girls remain missing, one presumed murdered.

[ShiningInLuz]

Kate talks about the Cipriano case and Amarals's conviction in her book. Page 416.

As per Brietta's link  - the UK press reported on the allegations being made against Amaral re Leonora Cipriano in Oct 2007.   He was made an arguido on 4th May 2007.    The idea that such alarming public news would have escaped the attention of the McCanns and/or their family or friends  - or was not brought to their attention by others is totally unrealistic IMO.

I've got the hardback version.  It stops at 392, and there is no entry for Cipriano in the index.  Would you care to quote the relevant passage so we are all enlightened.

[sadie]

BUMPED

I don't think the system did work, Alice.  It didn't find Madeleine McCann and in my opinion the way in which the system was used was the main impediment to that. 

You posted there are three stages in Portuguese criminal proceedings ...

• Inquiry
• Bringing to Justice
• Trial

The first two steps you detailed in the investigation into Madeleine's disappearance began and ended with the parents; with the insidious leaks destroying their credibility starting with JOSE MANUEL OLIVEIRA Crime reporter, 'Diario de Noticias': a badly told story ... PEDRO TADEU, Editor, 24 Horas': displayed a cold and calculating attitude throughout this process ... JOSE BARRA da COSTA, Former Policia Judiciaria: this is a couple who practice 'swinging'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/panorama/7106086.stm

All of that was being fed into the public domain and consciousness at a time when the victims of it were gagged and unable to refute the lies being spread about them because the secrecy law did not allow them to speak about the investigation.

It was a very close run thing for the McCanns who were no doubt aware of the Cipriano case. 
In the event their story did not end as Leonor's did with a 'murderer' safely under lock and key with all three stages in proceedings completed.
Neither did it reach stage three of the process with any suspect going to trial.  Whether or not that could be put down entirely to the abuse of the penal laws by the investigation could never be determined ... but I don't think it could have helped.[/size]

This Secrecy Law made the Mccanns life Double Hell.

All the lies, insinuations and evil propaganda, ?deliberately put out against them, caused sections of the Public to doubt them ... and eventually an agressive set of erm ... "sceptics" ... to form a hatred group against them.  Such destructive behaviour against innocents who were grieving from the loss of their much loved daughter. 

In a supposedly civilized society ....

Unbelievable 

[ShiningInLuz]

Well it was in the British newspapers the day after !! 

With thanks to Carana and John in the thread:   "Leonor Cipriano's ex Leandro Silva claims Joana was abducted or sold."
« on: February 09, 2014, 12:27:44 PM »
Posted on behalf of Carana.


Leonor Cipriano's former partner, Leandro Silva, claims Joana was abducted or sold.

These cops framed my wife.
8 September 2007

The Sun - By OLIVER HARVEY Chief Feature Writer

THE husband of a Portuguese woman jailed for the murder of her child spoke last night of his fears for Kate McCann.

Leandro Silva said his wife had been set up and he believed police would do the same thing to four-year-old Madeleine’s mother.

He said: “I am worried Kate will be framed for a crime she did not commit, the way it happened to my wife.”

Leandro also demanded that one of the detectives leading the Maddie investigation should be dropped from the case.

Detective Goncalo Amaral has been accused of being involved with beating Leandro’s wife, Leonor Cipriano, during her interrogation over the death of her daughter, Joana, nine.


[

Leandro Silva, former partner of Leonor Cipriano.

Speaking exclusively to The Sun, Leandro said: “Goncalo Amaral shouldn’t still be investigating the McCann case.

“I believe he will be proved to be a bad policeman and a bad operator.

“I don’t believe Kate and Gerry have anything to do with Madeleine’s disappearance.

“I just don’t believe they would do such a thing. After losing Joana I know the pain they are going through. It’s terrible.”

In news that shocked the world Kate McCann was yesterday declared an “arguida” ? Portuguese for suspect ? in the hunt for Maddie.

And the story of little Joana Cipriano has some chilling echoes of the British child’s disappearance.

Joana vanished on September 12, 2004, just seven miles from the spot where Madeleine went missing on May 3.

The innocent, brown-eyed youngster, her chestnut hair cut into a boyish crop, set off from home in the village of Figueira to collect groceries.

But she never returned. Like Maddie, it was as if Joana had disappeared off the face of the Earth.


www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/5sep7/SUN_08_09_2007.htm





Of course they knew about the Cipriano case, just 7 miles away in Figuiera, with a little girl lost/ abducted just two years 8 months before before .... and  The Sun Article the day after proved this was common knowledge.

What on earth are you thinking about SIL making such an ungrounded suggestion?

Perchance just disrupting Briettas discussion flow, trying to ruin her argument?

The McCanns were made arguidos before this date.

I am still awaiting a cite that supports Brietta's assertion.  I am not the origin of this assertion - Brietta is.  Forum protocol is a cite.

By the way, I have lived here for 5 years, and to find Figueira I would have to use Google.  Just like I did when I heard about Portelas.

[stephen25000]

BUMPED

This Secrecy Law made the Mccanns life Double Hell.

All the lies, insinuations and evil propaganda, ?deliberately put out against them, caused sections of the Public to doubt them ... and eventually an agressive set of erm ... "sceptics" ... to form a hatred group against them.  Such destructive behaviour against innocents who were grieving from the loss of their much loved daughter. 

In a supposedly civilized society ....

Unbelievable 

Tell me Sadie, do you hold the Mccanns responsible in any way for leaving their children by themselves ?

[Angelo222]

BUMPED

This Secrecy Law made the Mccanns life Double Hell.

All the lies, insinuations and evil propaganda, ?deliberately put out against them, caused sections of the Public to doubt them ... and eventually an agressive set of erm ... "sceptics" ... to form a hatred group against them.  Such destructive behaviour against innocents who were grieving from the loss of their much loved daughter. 

In a supposedly civilized society ....

Unbelievable 

You have no way of knowing what they are and are not innocent of so merely your opinion.  Their conduct towards the Portuguese police tells me a somewhat different story to the one you would have us all digest.  There is an untold story still in this case and one which the McCanns are desperate to avoid.

[misty]

I've got the hardback version.  It stops at 392, and there is no entry for Cipriano in the index.  Would you care to quote the relevant passage so we are all enlightened.

Page 338 in the hardback copy.
IMO British Consul Bill Henderson would have known about Amaral as the murder case of Michael Ahern was ongoing in the Algarve in the weeks prior to Madeleine's disappearance. Henderson was providing consular assistance for a UK citizen David Figueira - a case which involved a body in a freezer, a ballistics expert who couldn't determine if a gun had been fired & an autopsy at odds with the prosecutions version of events (yes, really). 
 

[Brietta]

Tell me Sadie, do you hold the Mccanns responsible in any way for leaving their children by themselves ?

It is difficult to determine exactly the effect abuse of the secrecy laws may have had on Madeleine's case for the simple reason that not all investigations be they missing children or a jewellery heist, reach successful conclusion.

The least a missing child can expect surely, is to be given the undivided attention of those tasked with finding him or her.

How was the search for Madeleine assisted by dishonest leaks to the press ... for example the alleged finding of a syringe?

Why was it so important to the Policia Judiciaria to blacken the names of the McCanns, in particular Kate?   

[stephen25000]

It is difficult to determine exactly the effect abuse of the secrecy laws may have had on Madeleine's case for the simple reason that not all investigations be they missing children or a jewellery heist, reach successful conclusion.

The least a missing child can expect surely, is to be given the undivided attention of those tasked with finding him or her.

How was the search for Madeleine assisted by dishonest leaks to the press ... for example the alleged finding of a syringe?

Why was it so important to the Policia Judiciaria to blacken the names of the McCanns, in particular Kate?

Leaks occurred from both sides Brietta.

As to blackening opinion , the Mccanns in my view and others did that all by their actions.

[John]

I've got the hardback version.  It stops at 392, and there is no entry for Cipriano in the index.  Would you care to quote the relevant passage so we are all enlightened.

This is the only reference in the book to the Ciprianos. Digital version page 354.

Later  the  same  month,  Amaral  was  given  an eighteen-month  suspended  prison  sentence  in connection  with  a  case  in  which  three  of  his  officers were  accused  of  torture.  The  mother  and  uncle  of another  missing  child  –  eight-year-old  Joana Cipriano,  who  had  disappeared  in  2004  from  a village  seven  miles  from  Praia  da  Luz  –  had  been imprisoned  for  her  murder,  although  no  body  has ever  been  found.  They  claimed  they  had  been tortured  into  confessing  (the  police  maintained  that Sra  Cipriano  had  fallen down the  stairs).

[kizzy]

BUMPED

This Secrecy Law made the Mccanns life Double Hell.

All the lies, insinuations and evil propaganda, ?deliberately put out against them, caused sections of the Public to doubt them ... and eventually an agressive set of erm ... "sceptics" ... to form a hatred group against them.  Such destructive behaviour against innocents who were grieving from the loss of their much loved daughter. 

In a supposedly civilized society ....

Unbelievable 

IMO it also served as an advantage to them.