Is this another example of a potentially crucial error by the VRD handler?

[misty]

I was drawn to review the cadaver dog examination & alert in 5A following a recent discussion elsewhere.

On watching the sequence of events starting at 19m 16s on the attached link (full screen on a laptop/desktop is recommended) https://youtu.be/c4NMYPsFKb8?t=1156  right through to the time of Eddie's alert, it is very interesting to note where Eddie's nose can briefly be seen before he turns around behind the sofa & starts barking. His tail is visible, showing his position when alerting.
 I have included a still shot where you can see his nose just before the alert.


Contrast this with the commentary Grime provided on the location of the source of the alert at the time:-

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

*snipped*

"Moving onto the other rooms once he's found what he thinks he's looking for in this room, and we go into the bathroom and come into this bedroom he loses his interest because he's actually found the source that he was looking for, until we come over here and I think you've got it on video that when he first came in he was quite interested in the sofa but he didn't have access to the back of the sofa and when he's gone behind the sofa what I saw was that approximately in the centre of the wall where the window is, just along the tile area between the tiles and the wall, he's been scenting there a lot stronger than he has anywhere else and the when he's gone out there the second time he has decided yes that's what I'm looking for and that's when he has given me the bark indication."

What observations do other posters have regarding what appears to be the real source of  Eddie's alert?

[Robittybob1]

Martin Grime  is in the better position to observe what Eddie is doing behind the couch than what we are.
I agree he sniffs under the sofa but scent is in the air, it could be moving from a certain spot.
What difference would it make if he located an area with a metre of another spot?

[Brietta]

I was drawn to review the cadaver dog examination & alert in 5A following a recent discussion elsewhere.

On watching the sequence of events starting at 19m 16s on the attached link (full screen on a laptop/desktop is recommended) https://youtu.be/c4NMYPsFKb8?t=1156  right through to the time of Eddie's alert, it is very interesting to note where Eddie's nose can briefly be seen before he turns around behind the sofa & starts barking. His tail is visible, showing his position when alerting.
 I have included a still shot where you can see his nose just before the alert.


Contrast this with the commentary Grime provided on the location of the source of the alert at the time:-

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

*snipped*

"Moving onto the other rooms once he's found what he thinks he's looking for in this room, and we go into the bathroom and come into this bedroom he loses his interest because he's actually found the source that he was looking for, until we come over here and I think you've got it on video that when he first came in he was quite interested in the sofa but he didn't have access to the back of the sofa and when he's gone behind the sofa what I saw was that approximately in the centre of the wall where the window is, just along the tile area between the tiles and the wall, he's been scenting there a lot stronger than he has anywhere else and the when he's gone out there the second time he has decided yes that's what I'm looking for and that's when he has given me the bark indication."

What observations do other posters have regarding what appears to be the real source of  Eddie's alert?

In my opinion Eddie is a blunt instrument instrument.  From what I recall of his performance in the villa the focus of his attention was indeterminate when giving his bark indication ... take your pick between the chair at the table ~ on top of the cupboard ~ or inside where cuddle cat was lurking.

His priority seems to be turning to directly face his owner when barking.

In this instance his owner was behind him and to the left at the far end of the sofa. 

[G-Unit]

Another example of an error? Has the handler been accused of previous errors? By whom? Was it proved that he was guilty of these accusations? By whom?

[Robittybob1]

Another example of an error? Has the handler been accused of previous errors? By whom? Was it proved that he was guilty of these accusations? By whom?

I can think of a few times.  Where is the footage of Eddie alerting to Cuddle cat outside the villa?  I have not seen it and yet it is written about in the file.

[G-Unit]

I can think of a few times.  Where is the footage of Eddie alerting to Cuddle cat outside the villa?  I have not seen it and yet it is written about in the file.

What does 'outside the villa' mean?

[Robittybob1]

What does 'outside the villa' mean?

To me it means somewhere other than inside the villa.  What does it mean to you?

[Brietta]

Another example of an error? Has the handler been accused of previous errors? By whom? Was it proved that he was guilty of these accusations? By whom?

I seem to recall less than positive criticism within the pages of Operation Rectangle ... well worth a read to broaden the horizons, if you haven't already.

[G-Unit]

I can think of a few times.  Where is the footage of Eddie alerting to Cuddle cat outside the villa?  I have not seen it and yet it is written about in the file.

Is there any reason why you should have access to such footage?

[misty]

Martin Grime  is in the better position to observe what Eddie is doing behind the couch than what we are.
I agree he sniffs under the sofa but scent is in the air, it could be moving from a certain spot.
What difference would it make if he located an area with a metre of another spot?

How large a gap in both space & time should a cadaver dog be permitted between source & alert? Would a delay in alerting or a misinterpreted source of alert have an adverse effect on the collection of possible forensic evidence?

[misty]

A question, which we cannot answer but gives food for thought:-

Which came first - the birth of Amaral's hypothesis or the arrival of the dogs?

I have asked this based on Grime's attention to the examination of the window sill by Keela & also the area of the boot to which Eddie hadn't given a prior alert.

[faithlilly]

I seem to recall less than positive criticism within the pages of Operation Rectangle ... well worth a read to broaden the horizons, if you haven't already.

I’d love to read that Brietta. Do you have a cite ?

[Brietta]

I’d love to read that Brietta. Do you have a cite ?

Certainly.  It is a terribly simple thing to access.

If one types - operation rectangle - into a search engine ... one will arrive at a page where a choice can be made from various references ... choosing one will generally take one here https://www.gov.je/SiteCollectionDocuments/Government%20and%20administration/R%20Operation%20Rectangle%20review%20of%20the%20efficient%20and%20effective%20use%20of%20resources%20201005%20BDO%20Alto.pdf  it takes about thirty seconds max to arrive at ~ well it did when I tried it.
I can thoroughly recommend the technique to you.

If you have a real interest ... allow me to also recommend you to ... https://www.gov.je/SiteCollectionDocuments/Government%20and%20administration/R%20WiltshireOperationHavenRedacted%2020081112%20JN.pdf
Both links appear in the forum on a quite a few occasions.  Good reading to you.

[Sunny]

So if the dogs were not handled correctly and their alerts not evidence anyway in your opinions, why the constant need to discredit them. All IMO of course.

[Brietta]

So if the dogs were not handled correctly and their alerts not evidence anyway in your opinions, why the constant need to discredit them. All IMO of course.

I don't think there is any question about the handling of the dogs.  In my opinion the handler is an expert in his field.

In my opinion the problem arises when interpretation has been made in the total absence of supporting evidence.

Misty made a totally new observation of a point which might be worth discussing before we embark on the same old same old set of accusations.