McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights

[Mr Gray]

That question isn't relevant, as the judge of the first instance told Gerry McCann in 2014;

GMC – But the book mentions facts that aren't true.

Judge – To decide that there are already forensic experts. We are not here to prove if the contents of the book are truthful or not. Here we are only trying to establish if the freedom of expression of the defendants has affected the rights of the claimants. This court cannot be a substitute of the criminal investigation. [Turns to the interpreter] Tell the gentleman that he is excused.

Very glad you raised that point.

So the judge in the first instance says they are not there to establish facts...thats FACTS...so admits no establishment of facts...and the ECHR state the book has  a factual bias...cant you see that makes no sense

[Mr Gray]

Did you expect the Portuguese courts or the ECHR to contradict or question what was said in the PJ  files released after the archiving?

you seem to be understanding  a little better now...your post make my point perfectly...The ECHR do not question the facts...that should have been done by the mccanns lawyers ata n earlier stage

The question is how...why ..and when were the proven facts established

[Brietta]

That question isn't relevant, as the judge of the first instance told Gerry McCann in 2014;

GMC – But the book mentions facts that aren't true.

Judge – To decide that there are already forensic experts. We are not here to prove if the contents of the book are truthful or not. Here we are only trying to establish if the freedom of expression of the defendants has affected the rights of the claimants. This court cannot be a substitute of the criminal investigation. [Turns to the interpreter] Tell the gentleman that he is excused.

In 2014 the McCanns had achieved their aim.

Police investigations were in progress into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.

From thereon in they had made their point which I think rather cements opinion that the extraordinary ECHR decision against them is an irrelevance.

Interestingly their initial motivation in taking legal action in Portugal was as a result of their belief that Amaral's book and media career built on denigrating them was impeding their search for Madeleine.

That would be an informed opinion.  Considering that at the time their private detectives were the only ones actively searching for Madeleine and the only source of funding for that was from private contribution.

I find it interesting that Amaral has continued his vendetta until the present day against the investigation for Madeleine and propagating slurs against her parents. 

I think today's situation is of as much relevance to Madeleine's case with Amaral's recent failed attempts to undermine the present German investigation as was the initial action taken to prevent the damage he was doing.

Kate and Gerry knew from experience that Amaral's book etc damaged Madeleine's investigation right from the start.  One wonders why he continues doing that. 

[G-Unit]

Very glad you raised that point.

So the judge in the first instance says they are not there to establish facts...thats FACTS...so admits no establishment of facts...and the ECHR state the book has  a factual bias...cant you see that makes no sense

The judge actually used the word 'truth', that's TRUTH, not facts. Perhaps this post will help you to understand; 

Another example of how failure to read correctly leads people down blind alleys. Elsewhere on the internet there is much kerfuffle over the  "Proved Facts" included in the judgement.

Much is being made of phases such as:

"Dogs of the British police "Eddie" and "Keela" detected brands odor of human blood and body in apartment 5a of the Ocean Club [point AR) of undisputed]. 7.Dogs of the British police "Eddie" and "Keela" detected odors of human blood and body in a vehicle rented by the authors Kate McCann and Gerald McCann after the disappearance of Madeleine"

"The minor Madeleine McCann died in the apartment 5A of the Ocean Club resort, on the night of May 3rd of 2007"

" Kate McCann and Gerald McCann are involved in the occultation of the cadaver of their child Madeleine McCann"

"From what was obtained until now, everything points out that the McCann, as self-defence, didn't want to deliver immediately and voluntarily the cadaver, existing a strong possibility that the same was transported from the initial place of deposition. This situation is susceptible to raise questions about the circumstances under which the death of the minor occurred."

A more nuanced reading shows that these are not "Proven Facts" in themselves, but the "Proven Fact" is that these statements were made in the previous reports rather than it was a proven fact that they were true. The court accepts that it is a fact that these statements occurin legal documents. Amaral needed this to claim that his book was based on what someone else had written.

So we will have another myth growing up that the Judge in this case accepted that Eddie and Keela reacted, that the McCanns hid the body, yet still found against the McCanns, when all the judge has found is that those statements occurred in another document.

I suspect the post mortem examination on this will go on for days or weeks and become an established factoid.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6257.msg236094#msg236094

It did indeed become an established factoid, with those who misunderstood what the judge was doing still clinging to it like superglue.

[Venturi Swirl]

The judge actually used the word 'truth', that's TRUTH, not facts. Perhaps this post will help you to understand; 

Another example of how failure to read correctly leads people down blind alleys. Elsewhere on the internet there is much kerfuffle over the  "Proved Facts" included in the judgement.

Much is being made of phases such as:

"Dogs of the British police "Eddie" and "Keela" detected brands odor of human blood and body in apartment 5a of the Ocean Club [point AR) of undisputed]. 7.Dogs of the British police "Eddie" and "Keela" detected odors of human blood and body in a vehicle rented by the authors Kate McCann and Gerald McCann after the disappearance of Madeleine"

"The minor Madeleine McCann died in the apartment 5A of the Ocean Club resort, on the night of May 3rd of 2007"

" Kate McCann and Gerald McCann are involved in the occultation of the cadaver of their child Madeleine McCann"

"From what was obtained until now, everything points out that the McCann, as self-defence, didn't want to deliver immediately and voluntarily the cadaver, existing a strong possibility that the same was transported from the initial place of deposition. This situation is susceptible to raise questions about the circumstances under which the death of the minor occurred."

A more nuanced reading shows that these are not "Proven Facts" in themselves, but the "Proven Fact" is that these statements were made in the previous reports rather than it was a proven fact that they were true. The court accepts that it is a fact that these statements occurin legal documents. Amaral needed this to claim that his book was based on what someone else had written.

So we will have another myth growing up that the Judge in this case accepted that Eddie and Keela reacted, that the McCanns hid the body, yet still found against the McCanns, when all the judge has found is that those statements occurred in another document.

I suspect the post mortem examination on this will go on for days or weeks and become an established factoid.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6257.msg236094#msg236094

It did indeed become an established factoid, with those who misunderstood what the judge was doing still clinging to it like superglue.

OMG, are you actually quoting the infamous Debunker to make your case?!  Well that's a turn up, I must say....

[Brietta]

OMG, are you actually quoting the infamous Debunker to make your case?!  Well that's a turn up, I must say....

I was delighted to have a reminder of OxfordBloo and the excellent contributions s/he made to the forum.  It also called to mind the relentless attack and lack of respect to which she was subjected as a result of what I thought were his/her informed and informative posts.  All quite ironic methinks!

[G-Unit]

OMG, are you actually quoting the infamous Debunker to make your case?!  Well that's a turn up, I must say....

Never heard of him/her. Carana agreed with the above post and so do I.

[G-Unit]

I was delighted to have a reminder of OxfordBloo and the excellent contributions s/he made to the forum.  It also called to mind the relentless attack and lack of respect to which she was subjected as a result of what I thought were his/her informed and informative posts.  All quite ironic methinks!

OxfordBloo certainly helped my understanding of the Portuguese legal system.

[Eleanor]

OxfordBloo certainly helped my understanding of the Portuguese legal system.

Ah, Debunker.  I knew him well.

[Venturi Swirl]

Never heard of him/her. Carana agreed with the above post and so do I.

I find it hard to believe you have never heard of Debunker.  He was (is) a very interesting person, very intelligent, an expert at debunking sceptic myths, and as such was Enemy Number 1 amongst the sceptic community for a number of years.  You'd do well to read all his contributions to this forum. 

[Venturi Swirl]

Ah, Debunker.  I knew him well.

Moi aussi.  I wonder where he is now?  I did know his RL id for a while but have since forgotten.  Of course he blew it with "us lot" for reasons I can't remember now either.  Deb, if you're reading this now, come back!!!!

[G-Unit]

I find it hard to believe you have never heard of Debunker.  He was (is) a very interesting person, very intelligent, an expert at debunking sceptic myths, and as such was Enemy Number 1 amongst the sceptic community for a number of years.  You'd do well to read all his contributions to this forum.

Well that's not whose post I was quoting afaik.

[Wonderfulspam]

In 2014 the McCanns had achieved their aim.

Police investigations were in progress into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.

From thereon in they had made their point which I think rather cements opinion that the extraordinary ECHR decision against them is an irrelevance.

Interestingly their initial motivation in taking legal action in Portugal was as a result of their belief that Amaral's book and media career built on denigrating them was impeding their search for Madeleine.

That would be an informed opinion.  Considering that at the time their private detectives were the only ones actively searching for Madeleine and the only source of funding for that was from private contribution.

I find it interesting that Amaral has continued his vendetta until the present day against the investigation for Madeleine and propagating slurs against her parents. 

I think today's situation is of as much relevance to Madeleine's case with Amaral's recent failed attempts to undermine the present German investigation as was the initial action taken to prevent the damage he was doing.

Kate and Gerry knew from experience that Amaral's book etc damaged Madeleine's investigation right from the start.  One wonders why he continues doing that.

The German investigation didn't need a great deal of undermining, if we're honest. Wolters doesn't really have anything of substance against CB, that's the problem, & it could well be because the conclusions of the first investigation were correct, couldn't it.

[Venturi Swirl]

Well that's not whose post I was quoting afaik.

You were quoting OxfordBloo were you not?  That is Debunker.

[barrier]

1.2. In the appealed acórdão the following facts are considered proven :

1. The applicants Gerald McCann and Kate (sic) are married to each other.

2. The applicant Madeleine McCann was born on 12.5.2003 , daughter of Kate McCann and Gerald McCann.

3. The applicant Sean McCann was born on 1/2/2005, son of  Kate McCann and Gerald McCann.

4. The applicant Amelie McCann was born on 1/2/2005 , daughter of Kate McCann and Gerald McCann.

5. The applicant Madeleine McCann has been missing since 3/5/2007 , resulting in the criminal investigation n° 201/07.0 GALGS, opened by the prosecutor of Portimão.

6. The dogs Eddie and Keela, from the British police, have detected human blood and cadaver scent in the apartment 5A of the Ocean Club.

7. The dogs Eddie and Keela, from the British police, have detected human blood and cadaver scent in the vehicle rented by the applicants Kate McCann and Gerald McCann after Madeleine's disappearance.

8. The applicants Kate McCann and Gerald McCann were constituted (by lawyer) assisted witnesses (arguidos) in the criminal investigation.

9.  On 10/9/2007 (pp. 2587-2602 of the criminal investigation), Chief-Inspector Tavares de Almeida wrote a report and particularly the following :

"Given what we could establish, the facts point towards the death of Madeleine McCann during the evening of May 3 2007, in the apartment 5A of Praia da Luz Ocean Club resort, occupied by the McCann couple and their three children (p. 2599) (... )



Could any of my critics...including John...expalin why facts 6 and 7 were considered proven......and why the mccanns lawyers never questioned them.

These were the facts presented to the ECHR and on whcih their judgement was based. its not the ECHRs job to question the accepted fcats in the case...its not their role to act as a 4th court and retry  the case.

Based on the proven facts the ECHR had no option other than to rule in Amarals favour

Points 6 and 7 were in the first judgement which the McCanns won, how can they contest their own  victory ?